GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Wow Bird had to actually make moves and mitigate traffic.. Superior hoops instinct required.
There's so much more skill required when you don't have teammates spacing the floor with 30 threes per game (attempts).
Today's game is a joke by comparison and the basketball has been replaced by "threeball"
Duncan could drop 40, but 30 works too.... The point is that Duncan could carry the scoring load while the ball moved, so the Spurs could beat top teams with Duncan carrying the scoring load.
Otoh, Lebron needs to dominate the ball to score a lot, so that's why he can't beat top teams while carrying the scoring load... Specifically, he never won a Finals while carrying the scoring load, and never carried weak help over top teams (never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick).
Carrying the scoring load matters because players that can carry the "star" category scoring require less stars, thereby allowing GM's to find the right defenders/others, aka elite roster construction.. So Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load prevents elite roster construction compared to peers, while his skillset of imposing spot-up roles further hampers roster construction... Ultimately, Lebron's ball-dominance requires super-teams of 3 franchise players, while Duncan's superior brand of ball could win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player.
And again, carrying the scoring load against top teams = defeating max defensive attention, so Lebron can't defeat max defensive attention... Accordingly, Lebron needs equal scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention - he needs a CLOSER, which is a huge weakness compared to peers.. That's why he only averaged 2 to 5 more ppg than his sidekick in his Finals wins, and he's actually been outscored by teammates in critical series (and even entire playoff runs).
The defense in that clip was horrible and any other analysis is wrong.
Today's teams would score 150 against it, even if you took the 3 point line away.
The defense in that clip was horrible and any other analysis is wrong.
Today's teams would score 150 against it, even if you took the 3 point line away.
Today's defense is far worse and everyone with 2 eyes agrees - I can cherry-pick 4 plays like you did that are far worse and show a level of trash that didn't exist in prior eras.
Today's rules mandate an open paint (defensive 3) and automatic penetration (no impeding ball-handlers).. This crap is in the rules, while the best players say Euroleague is much tougher.
So you're ignoring the obvious reality and believing what you want... Facts don't matter - ESPN gave you a narrative and you'll stick to it no matter what... Meanwhile, 4 plays from a Bird video supercedes an entire era of open paints, no resistance, record scoring, and defense-killing rules.. Carry on
Not bothering with the rest but Usain Bolt is 6 foot 5. Is that considered short these days?
It's common knowledge that Bolt is an outlier
Any way you slice it, MJ is closer to an optimal sprinting physique than Lebron, while also being far quicker in tight spaces.. LeBulky isn't quick enough to chase guys off screens for example and guard guys like Klay, Reggie Miller, or Jordan
How the hell would today's players score if you took the 3-point line away??... It's the primary advantage of today's players, along with their ability to drive open paints, which didn't exist back then either.
So let's break this down.
We all know that when the game includes threes, a 24-foot shot is more efficient than a 5-footer due to the extra point... However, WITHOUT a 3-point line, 24-footers are far less efficient than 5-footers, so the best plays become post-ups and mid-range (which today's game sucks at).
Today's post play doesn't compare to the great post play that existed at ALL positions in previous eras.. For example, Joe Dumars was a GREAT post player... Or Steve Smith, Glen Rice, Glenn Robinson, Alex English, Bob McAdoo - LITERALLY EVERYONE - posting up is how guys played back then.. Ultimately, today's players have a simpleton, high-screen skillset, so they would be a fish out of water in a format without the things to optimize this "downhill" approach, such as the 3-point line and open paint.
Ultimately, previous eras had the same advantage on 2-pointers that today's game has on threes.
Bird simply fakes out a bunch of dudes and makes it look easy.. It's no different than Luka or Jokic meandering down the lane at 3 mph as defenders make sure they aren't "impeding" them, per the rules.
The consensus is that nothing looks worse or has easier scoring than today's game, while the best players in today's game say that Euro League is tougher.
So the rules and players say that today's era has cupcake scoring - aka the rules mandate open paint and hands-off, while the players say Euroleague is tougher.
So you guys are wrong on every level and simply believing what you want
Do you never get even a little bit tired?
I woke up to YouTube playing MJ's 55 point game vs the Knicks wearing number 45. It's a great watch.
At 15:25 in the video, the commentators very matter of factly state that once Jordan left to play baseball, Pippen blossomed into the best non center player in the league. It was just stated like it was the most obvious thing in the world.
Great game to watch though.
I woke up to YouTube playing MJ's 55 point game vs the Knicks wearing number 45. It's a great watch.At 15:25 in the video, the commentators very matter of factly state that once Jordan left to play baseball, Pippen blossomed into the best non center player in the league. It was just stated like it was the most obvious thing in the world. Great game to watch though.
1994 had tons of non-centers and perimeter players that were far superior to Pippen.. These guys were true franchise players that could build lottery teams into perennial contenders, while Pippen was a career 2nd option and carried system player that was luckily-gifted a fully-developed dynasty.
For example, when Bird won his 3rd straight MVP in 86', people forget that Dominique was #2 for MVP because he led the Hawks to their first of four straight 50-win seasons.. Similarly, other elite scorers or all-time floor generals from 1994 built lottery teams into perennial 50-win contenders like Stockton, Drexler, Payton, Barkley, Malone, Miller, Rice, Sprewell and others..
Again, true franchise players that build lottery teams into perennial contenders can't be compared to carried system robots and secondary producers like Pippen, Klay or Middletown - Pippen was simply gifted a fully-developed dynasty in 94' that he didn't build but quickly cratered.
Ultimately, career sidekicks are never good enough to build a lottery team into contender because they simply don't produce enough.. Specifically, any team that builds around them will lack capacity to add talent because any decent scorer might supplant them as "the guy".. This is precisely why they're career sidekicks and not considered franchise players.
And of course you're going to continue with "b-b-but the announcers said Pippen was the best during the double-nickel game"... Except who cares - the media says a lot of dumb sh*t... They quickly turned on Pippen in 99' when he lost the winning spotlight that they need to view 2nd options as good - i.e. 2nd options don't make All-NBA on losing teams and only make it after getting titles and/or big winning spotlight.. i.e. Klay, Pippen, Pau, Parker, Manu, Dumars, Worthy, Jalen Williams, etc.
Media comments only count when they support your narrative.
Today's defense is far worse and everyone with 2 eyes agrees - I can cherry-pick 4 plays like you did that are far worse and show a level of trash that didn't exist in prior eras.Today's rules mandate an open paint (defensive 3) and automatic penetration (no impeding ball-handlers).. This crap is in the rules, while the best players say Euroleague is much tougher.So you're igno
I cherrypicked plays?
It's a highlight package for how awesome Larry Bird is.
It showed him what any decent player would have been able to do against the horrible defenders of the 80s.
Imagine watching that defense and defending it.
You know you can say "You're right. That defense wasn't even high school level, but I still think MJ is GOAT.
Best non center in the league story checks out. And the next year the only non centers ahead of him were 2 power forwards who are both top 20 players all time.
i shared your post with the mod forum and put in an inquiry for u
McLovin the Wholesome Mod!
I don't cite quotes from media members and I don't cite All-NBA accolades like you guys do.. I specifically say that the opinion of a few dozen journalism majors with group think means nothing..
I also state that Pippen never played above a prime Iguodala caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.
I also use player quotes, and the fact is that no one feared Pippen .. He was a Shawn Marion level threat that simply landed alongside the goat, thereby riding the rising tide.
I cherrypicked plays?
It's a highlight package for how awesome Larry Bird is.
It showed him what any decent player would have been able to do against the horrible defenders of the 80s.
It was a few plays from 1 game, and those plays were nowhere near the zero defense of today's game.
Bird was essentially Dirk but with a quicker jumper, handles and GOAT passing.. And also a lot meaner, smarter and clutch
So who's worse Lebron or Pippen?
Imagine watching that defense and defending it.
You know you can say "You're right. That defense wasn't even high school level, but I still think MJ is GOAT.
The entire "cherry pick a few plays" approach is the strategy of the losing side - Lebron is a joke and a fraud that has fooled many people like yourself... Tons of people think Lebron isn't even as good as Curry, Duncan, or Kobe, let alone MJ...
A big part of the fraud is pretending that longevity means something and offsets perennial losing, underachievement, and weak teams... Remember that good teams beat Lebron by record amount (14', 17', 18'), while the 1-star teams upset him (Dwight, Dirk, Ant)... Accordingly, his teams are weak trash compared to peers like Curry, Kobe or Duncan.. And we know that it's a chemistry issue, since the talent is initially favored (a record 7 preseason favorites).
Ultimately, Lebron's skillset imposes spot-up roles and weak chemistry, thereby requiring talent-based winning (all-star team strategy) and rabid team-hopping.. Since the result is team-hopping, Lebron's skillset represents selfishness and disloyalty.
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Lebron > Pippen but it's debatable which one is more overrated.
On one hand, it's pretty overrated to be borderline top 15 all-time but everyone has you in a goat debate... This is Lebron
Otoh, it's also incredibly overrated to play at an Iguodala level but have the winning spotlight inflate you to top 30 all-time.. This is Pippen
Which one do you think is more overrated??
Best non center in the league story checks out. And the next year the only non centers ahead of him were 2 power forwards who are both top 20 players all time.
First of all, if you were there in 94', you would know that Pippen wasn't in any "conversation" for MVP.... No one ever said "gee, who wins MVP - Hakeem or Pippen"... That's wound be like saying "who wins MVP - Klay or Jokic".
Secondly, when SGA carried OKC last year through all the team's injuries, it was SURPRISING, which is similar to Nash's Suns, Rose's Bulls, or even Lebron's 66-win Cavs in 09' (45 wins in 08').
Essentially, surprise factor is the biggest factor in MVP Voting, and 55 wins without MJ is the biggest surprise factor ever.. Anyone legit like Barkley or Robinson would've easily taken the award in these optimal conditions... So it's absurd to praise Pippen for 3rd.
Finally, MVP voting isn't a player ranking, and media opinion means nothing... The only reason that you bring up Rachel Nichols' opinion is because you can't make a case based on Pippen or Lebron's actual PERFORMANCE, aka dominating down the stretch and hitting the big shot, or defeating max defensive attention/carrying the scoring load, or winning you "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player, etc, etc, etc
Jordan is 6-6, Carl Lewis 6-2 fwiw.
Pippen is more overrated than LeBron.
However, just for laughs, if someone said Nique was a franchise player who built a perennial contender, that would make Nique the most overrated. But nobody could ever be that high. Carmelo is Larry Bird compared to Nique.
