1/3 We 3betting or folding?

Edit: Disregard this post. I missed that there were 4 limpers. If the limpers are all pretty straightforward, and not trappy I might flat. In that case you're playing to try to make a straight or flush and win a big pot, and have to be cautious with top pair type hands.

Original post:

I'm probably 3-betting, assuming 15 is a standard raise size at the table and doesn't say anything about the strength of his hand. It's better to take initiative and make him fold to your cbet when you both miss rather than you folding to his cbet.

As a general rule of thumb, against larger open sizes you should flat less, tighten up and lean more towards 3-betting with most of your continues. I'm definitely tightening up somewhat due to the large sizing, but QTs is generally good enough to continue vs a button open, IMO.

3bet is fine, but with four limpers, expect to face at least one call if not five 😉 I might wait a little while to learn something about the players.

Yeah I'm a fold esp readless but this seems more a question of call or fold

Fold, iso range might be similar to a hj open - this can fold

i would approach as sb vs co 100bb deep and play no flats or if u wanted to only flat pairs

I'm curious what continuing range people have here, facing 4 limps and a weakish-looking raise to 15? It's tough to know what the optimal response is when facing opponents who are not playing optimally. It's not like we can just run it through a solver.

I'm probably 3-betting a linear range (assuming it's usually getting called by someone).

My 3-bet range would probably be something like 99+, KQs+, AJs+ AQo+.

Additionally I'm likely flatting some hands, as long as I'm assuming the limpers are straightforward and unlikely to raise.

If table is soft enough to have a flatting range, it would be something like pocket pairs 88 and below, most suited aces AT and below, and possibly QJs, QTs, JTs and T9s.

I'm treating all of these like implied odds hands, mostly looking to make a premium hand/draw or fold.

Like if I call T9s, I'm checking a T high flop and even vs just a flop bet and call I'm likely folding immediately to avoid reverse implied odds when you turn two pair against a set or something.

Calling these types of hands is assuming the table is relatively soft and I expect opponents to make some blunders post flop.

If the table is tougher And/or there's some chance of a limp/raise then I'm probably just playing 3-bet or fold.

What does everyone else think? Some of my flats could be -EV, but I expect flatting the pairs at least is usually OK to set mine.

QTs sucks oop just fold it

Yep

Definite fold pre in this situation. If not for the limpers, I love re-raising. Also good to wait a couple hands to learn more about the others. You’ll be in good position soon.

From a profitability POV in this hand, it's probably just a fold. 3!ing is probably -EV. However, from a game perspective if this is the first hand I'm going to 3! and find out what the table is made of. I think it is very profitable to get this information early, even if you have to punt a bit to get it.

If you make it $80 and any or all of the limpers cold call, you're going to be making a lot of money at this table and you know you can just bet huge preflop with your good hands. Good info to have before you get a monster.

If everyone folds and the button shows his AQ because fish are always obsessed with showing you how great they are by showing their hero folds, then V is in for a bad day sitting two seats to the right.

The EV that we get from having more information in later hands might be worth the EV we are punting now. So if I'm setting up for a long session and the table is fresh, I'd probably 3! here. If I'm only planning on playing for a few hours, then I'll take the lower variance and probably more EV+ route for this hand and fold.

I remember an old Phil Galfond video where he said he always preferred to have a bluff for his first 3-bet. People do tend to give you credit the first time, and play pretty straightforwardly. Once you've 3-bet a few times they're more likely to play back at you.

I ended up only playing a few hours there.

We folded this specific hand. Some orbits later, eventually we did 3b light ip vs him, he x/f dry flop. Then he said he was afraid of us or whatever and sat behind us(our direct left).
We didn't even show much aggression besides like 1 light 3b vs him.

This is one of the few spots where I'm willing to play post-flop Bingo.

We're getting a great price to call, and when we complete from the BB we can rep a super-wide range of hands on a lot of boards.

There's not much reason to 3B this hand, and it's a little too nitty to fold it in the BB at low stakes.

So I'd mostly just call, and see what develops. I don't love having the worst position post, and the worst position relative to the PFR, but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out when our hand connects well enough to continue on the flop.

FWIW, I used to always think this too. In fact, IIRC, there was a very similar spot posted like a decade+ ago where my response to the "fold pre"'s was something along the lines of "you'd have to pry QTs from my cold dead hands before I folded here". But I think slightly differently now.

Position is huge in terms of IO versus RIO and equity realization. We face real domination issues (not just in TP but also in big draws). The SPR will be an awkward / handcuffing ~5 when everyone calls. It's not impossible to get limp/reraised. I'm a big proponent of bingo poker, but it mostly requires position and a big SPR, and we don't have that here.

And in terms of reciprocality, it is just another case where we're doing exactly what everyone else is doing. There is obviously a bunch of spots where that will already (correctly) be the case, but we really need to find some deviations somewhere.

GcluelessBingonoobG

All fair points.

I'm looking at it through the lens of the games I play in, where my opponents are generally terrible, and I've got a reasonable post-flop skill edge, even OOP.

In this case, I believe OP is also playing at Parx Philly, my regular room, and I think I may know who this particularly V is. He's TAG, but he's pretty face-up post.

Aside from V being the PFR, there are 4 limpers with progressively capped ranges, and V opened for a silly-small size over 4 limps.

If we flop top 2P, a straight, a flush, or a combo draw, I'm not too worried about the RIO's. Otherwise, I'm not prone to going broke with weak TP's in multi-way pots.

Yea was playing at Parx.
Holly molly, with so little description, you already can figure out who V is.

He did play face up and is a bit more aggro than the crowd at the table but he was still very passive compared to say a young asian guy.
Imho, his aggression was maybe preflop only. Whereas the rest of the table was passive even for preflop.
If I had to label him, it wouldn't be a tag, it would be a passive player but not uber passive that only bets/raises with nuts. Of course my labels might be incorrect.

Of course my memories are kind of vague after so long.

One thing I remember was that he said he can play looser sitting behind me. He said it to the guy right next to me. I barely made a move on this guy. Oh I finally remember now he was limping some, I iso'ed some, I don't recall much of my isos because they were irrelevant. I only remember the 3bets I made on this guy.

The guy I'm thinking of is a reg. White. Maybe 60 yo. Medium height. Medium build. Dark gray hair, like salt-n-pepper, cur short. Always wearing shades. Looks like a cop. Doesn't talk much at the table, if at all. Always looks angry.

I usually see him playing 2/5 on Friday or Saturday nights. It wouldn't shock me if he was playing 1/3 earlier in the day, or if the game was good.

He's pretty nitty pre. And pretty sticky post. I ran a suicidal three street bluff on him the first time I played with him. Thought I might have a heart attack while he tanked for what seemed like forever, before he finally folded.

I don't think I showed the bluff, but I had a friend sitting next to me, and I think the guy heard me tell him that I was bluffing. I can't be sure because he's always got those stupid sunglasses on, but I think I've caught him shooting me dirty looks a few times since.

He's a typical Parx mis-reg. Terrible for the game.

Not too sure. Memory isn't really recalling much of appearance. But plays still kind of have some thoughts.
Also it was around 1pm at 1/3 so I doubt it's the same guy.
In order for me to remember a guy's appearance, it has to stand out or I've seen them a few times.
Even if I've seen them a few times around, like their plays might or might not stick in my head. In a bigger pool like parx's 1/3, I'll be like oh I remember this guy, he's a nitfish or whatever. But it's hard for me to recall the HH.
But if it were a smaller pool the place I used to go to, I'll have some good memories of their plays/appearance/even names. It's the same guys everyday. lol
The 2/2 plo at parx pool is small, same guys every time. Less action than 1/3 sometimes.

May or may not be the same guy. But I know the type. They're a dime-a-dozen in that room.

Bear in mind that the guy who just passed 60 was under 40 at the start of the poker boom, and there's a bunch of 50-70 yo mis-regs at Parx who all think they're the only guy in the room who knows how to play, because they've been playing 20+ years, and read all the books, and have the patience to sit there wearing shades, waiting for KQs+ so they can go to war.

You know how you tilt them? Defend your BB with QTs when they raise to $15 over 4 limpers, smash the flop, and donk into the field. If you whiff, and action checks to him, and he c-bets, tank for a few seconds and re-check your cards before you fold.

If everyone folds behind you, say, "If I knew they'd all fold, I would have called!" If he asks what you had, say, "nothing. I just thought your c-bet was BS."

It really is amazing I don't have more friends...

Very interesting.

Normally we'd think all older age people are more nitty/risk-averse but some are more aggro some are more fishier than others.
There were multiple times I thought I was the "youngest" at the table but their plays bewildered me.
Though, in general 1/3 are more on the passive side. The aggro players stick out. But definitely there weren't too much nits. Which, I thought I'd expect alot more.

Then I read somewhere that our tendencies also is related to the pool. Because we are so used to the plays made by our pool, we've adjusted to this pool specifically. Then once we leave this specific pool, our play would be sub optimal in other another pool.

Now, imagine if one was taught to always raise with the nuts on the turn only. Then he teaches his friend, his friend teaches his other friends. Eventually everyone was doing it. Now folding to turn check/raise became the +ev line because it was nuts and nuts only.
Then you come along and join this pool and realize everyone was folding to turn check/raise unless they have the nuts themselves, so you check/raise bluff every single time for a profit against this pool.

So I'd imagine those misregs you talk about have some similar leaks/playstyle to each other.

A lot of them play 2/5. Generally they all trend towards playing an overly TAG, face-up style. A few of the younger (50's) ones are actually grinding out some sort of living. There's one guy who looks like Lurch from the Adams Family - tall, skinny, gray hair, ashen skin, dead eyes. He's a 2/5 "pro".

At 1/3, the pool tends to be more loose-passive, but the 60-70 yo regs are all pretty nitty. At least when I play on weekend evenings, I don't see any "pros" grinding it out in their 50's. There are few decent regs in that 50 yo demographic, but mostly they're just guys who get let out of the house once or twice a month to dump some disposable income.

The 60-70 yo nits will sometimes loosen up if there's a maniac at the table, such that it can be difficult to figure out where you're at in multi-way pots involving them and the maniac. I've made some incorrect folds in spots where the maniac is blasting off with a draw and the mis-reg is in there calling or raising with some value hand I actually have beat.

The real gold mines at 1/3 are the 20-60 yo Indian males that are like 90/5/2, won't fold to a raise, will cold-call 3B's, will donk-barrel with air, and call at least once when their donk gets raised.

Your typical middle-aged Middle-Eastern male is also insanely exploitable, with similar tendencies.