GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Jordan could also drop-step dunk on guys better than Lebron, and he was also better off 2 legs in general, while also being better at other big man stuff like blocks, offensive rebounds and post game.. Accordingly, Jordan was the superior interior or paint player - he ultimately had superior diversity/skill, thereby allowing better fits/chemistry and higher levels of team offense (better teams)
Ultimately, Jordan could match or exceed Lebron's dunking, while being clearly superior at everything else, such as jumpshooting, offensive rebounds, post game, blocks, steals, moving/scoring off-screens, ball movement, fits, 5-man basketball, young player development, and much more
Michael Jordan NBA playoffs 1997. Since 3.5 attempts per game is above bailout volume, why did he go 12-67? 19% is good?
I love the guys in the stands at 9 seconds in the most proximate twitter video above after that frightening Lebon slam. The force, the torque, with which those long arms come down with gravity and 6'9'' 260 behind it, a lifetime of doing that motion. Sick. One dude is literally shielding his eyes lol.
Michael Jordan NBA playoffs 1997. Since 3.5 attempts per game is above bailout volume, why did he go 12-67? 19% is good?
Regular line only
That's all we're measuring because that's where today's line is.. So the analysis of 3+ attempts only looks at regular line years
Otoh, the shortened line is essentially a long 2 that everyone has bad numbers on sometimes
Ultimately, MJ never shot poorly in a season or series of 3+ attempts, while Lebron did all the time
I love the guys in the stands at 9 seconds in the most proximate twitter video above after that frightening Lebon slam. The force, the torque, with which those long arms come down with gravity and 6'9'' 260 behind it, a lifetime of doing that motion. Sick. One dude is literally shielding his eyes lol.
Imagine a guy 3 inches shorter that still matches or exceeds Lebron's dunking, while also being a goat jumpshooter with assassin mentality and goat clutch
Essentially, who cares about Lebron's dunking if he has the worst clutch efficiency ever and the most turnovers ever, while having preseason favorites that barely win 50 games and lose by record amount.. And a lottery record against Finals teams
Lebron couldn't win the East with homecourt in 09' and 10', so he put the top 3 scorers in the conference on 1 team to guarantee Finals runs. It's amazing that he got credit for winning the conference after that...
Accordingly, the only thing that matters is whether he won the Finals... Unfortunately, he won less frequently than anyone ever, while having a lottery record against Finals teams overall.. His many catastrophic losses against the West proved that he wouldn't be able to hang in the West, which was confirmed with lottery in 2019 after activating playoff mode..
Accordingly, AD showed Lebron how to make the playoffs in the West, while Hughes showed him in the East (and Wade showed Lebron how to win titles and perform under pressure)
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SKILL GRADES FOR LEBRON
* RIM ATTACK - elite
* POST GAME - below average
*MID-RANGE - below average
* FREE THROWS - below average
* OFF-SCREENS - below-average
* OFFENSIVE REBS - below average
* CLUTCH EFFICIENCY - below average
* TRIPLE THREAT POSITION** - beginner
* FUNDAMENTALS - bad
* FITS - worst-ever
* YOUNG PLAYER DEV - worst-ever
* DEFENSE - not elite or bad for 18 of 23 years
** pre-dribble stationary position = triple threat position
Lebron himself admits that he still has trouble pulling up going right (beginner stuff)..
Regular line only
That's all we're measuring because that's where today's line is.. So the analysis of 3+ attempts only looks at regular line years
Otoh, the shortened line is essentially a long 2 that everyone has bad numbers on sometimes
Ultimately, MJ never shot poorly in a season or series of 3+ attempts, while Lebron did all the time
This is dumb. The line being 2 feet closer made it easier. You don't get to just exclude stats when they don't fit your made up narrative.
Maybe those years with the Mickey mouse line just shouldn't count at all. So Jordan only won 4 titles. His other 2 don't count because they don't fit my narrative so I can just exclude them.
the 98' Jazz would sweep Curry's Warriors, who were a 1-man team with a 2nd option that produced less than Hornacek or 09' Mo.
Lmfao
Twog is the goat more than jordan or lebron could ever be
dude has people replying to his threads saying the same thing going on over a decade now
i think the kids call this "engagement farming"
Whatever you may think in this "debate", you have to admire the boldness of someone claiming that Lebron James is bad (not just not as good as Jordan, but literally below average or outright bad) at all areas of basketball except rim attack. Crazy that someone who sucks would convince coaches to play him for more than 20 seasons. Perhaps it was all marketing $
This is dumb. The line being 2 feet closer made it easier. You don't get to just exclude stats when they don't fit your made up narrative.
Maybe those years with the Mickey mouse line just shouldn't count at all. So Jordan only won 4 titles. His other 2 don't count because they don't fit my narrative so I can just exclude them.
All we can do is look at the facts and be intuitive.
It's intuitive that even the great Steph Curry would have weak efficiency from three if he only attempted 1 highly-contested bailout three per game at the end of shot-clock, aka "bailout" volume.
In Jordan's case, there was no in-between for his regular seasons because he either averaged around 1 attempt or less (bailout volume), or he had 3+ attempts where he was clearly trying to shoot a few more threes.
So the facts remain that MJ always shot well when he had above "bailout" volume.. In other words, anytime he tried to shoot threes, he shot well.. The same can't be said for Lebron, who has many seasons and series of shooting poorly from three.
So the next time you hear someone say "Jordan's career 3 pt efficiency was low", you can know that this is due to a career of mostly bailout volume, and that Jordan always shot well when he had today's volumes.
Btw, scoring went DOWN with the shortened line because it lessened the ground that defenders had to cover - shots generally became tougher.. So it's just another example of Jordan winning with the least spacing ever.
What's so funny??... Klay was a much lower producer than Hornacek across the board:
Regular Seasonhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 tsBasketball-Reference.comJeff Hornacek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.comhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html............... 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 tsBasketball-Reference.comKlay Thompson Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com
Playoffshttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 tsBasketball-Reference.comJeff Hornacek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.comhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html............... 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 tsBasketball-Reference.comKlay Thompson Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com
And Klay produced less than 09' Mo:
09' MO......... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY....... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER.
^^^^ Lebron carried Mo to 66 wins, and then Curry carried a LOWER PRODUCER to 73 wins...
Accordingly, the Warriors were a 1-man team, but Curry doesn't get credit for "carrying" like Lebron did because the term "73-win team" implies "stacked"... This robs Curry of the carry-job... Ultimately, KD joined a 1-man team that was led by the only unanimous MVP in history.
Whatever you may think in this "debate", you have to admire the boldness of someone claiming that Lebron James is bad (not just not as good as Jordan, but literally below average or outright bad) at all areas of basketball except rim attack. Crazy that someone who sucks would convince coaches to play him for more than 20 seasons. Perhaps it was all marketing $
Shaq, Giannis, and others wouldn't rank that high in most categories either
And similar to Lebron, their limitations/holes prevent elite chemistry and the highest levels of team offense
Otoh, the all-round scoring diversity of Jordan and Kobe fit with everyone and allowed the highest levels of chemistry or team offense
Is this above bailout volume? 5-25 I think I could beat that right now and I've barely played in the last 20 years.
Mj shooting 87% from the free throw line is some news to me.
That's actually pretty impressive.
No wait.
FG is lying again.
Not only did MJ not shoot 87% from the free throw line in his career, he didn't actually shoot better than 85.7% in any one season.
Is this above bailout volume? 5-25 I think I could beat that right now and I've barely played in the last 20 years.
MJ's 3 point contest was one of the most embarrassing things ever by a basketball player.
As a MJ fan back then I got a ribbing for months about MJ's pathetic attempt.
Shaq, Giannis, and others wouldn't rank that high in most categories either
And similar to Lebron, their limitations/holes prevent elite chemistry and the highest levels of team offense
Otoh, the all-round scoring diversity of Jordan and Kobe fit with everyone and allowed the highest levels of chemistry or team offense
LeBron gets drafted in 96 by the Lakers and him and Shaq win a minimum of 5 chips. Stop being silly.
Tell me you don't watch basketball without telling me you don't watch basketball.
Here's what Klay did when Steph was injured in the 2016 playoffs and missed 7 games.
Warriors went 5-2
OnE mAn TeAm
I'm sure Mo could do that.
Is this above bailout volume? 5-25 I think I could beat that right now and I've barely played in the last 20 years.
Anyone citing the 3-pt contest as evidence is exposing themselves as having never played basketball.
Anyone that played knows that shooting OUT OF A RACK requires significant practice, and it's well-documented that MJ went in there cold turkey and was taught a lesson.
The only reason that MJ was picked for the 3-point contest was because 1990 was his first year shooting more than bailout volume - it was his first year shooting the three and he was already good at it (38% on 3 attempts)... This was due to his great form and mechanics, and he was already the best TWO-point jumpshooter in the game.
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Here's what Klay did when Steph was injured in the 2016 playoffs and missed 7 games.Warriors went 5-2OnE mAn TeAmI'm sure Mo could do that.
The system developed the Warriors into a 1st Round winner WITHOUT curry, and the goat team WITH curry
so I don't see your point.. 1st Round is irrelevant and even Pippen averaged 25 in a 1st Round series.. But overall, Klay and Pippen are low-producing chokers that forced Curry and MJ to defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load).. Klay was a lower producer than Hornacek or 09' Mo.
