GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

The ABA and Doc

Jordan

AND1 Mixtape Tour hit ESPN2 right at the height of its power in 2002.

Youtube.

Jordan gets his own category. If those AND1 videos came out in 1965, you'd have an entire paradigm (idk what that means but I am sure I am using it perfectly!) shift. Guys see moves, see what is possible, and build on it. The game evolves not just by new coaching strategies and insights into what works via analytics. But the way it always has, you see a guy do a move at the park (always limited to that way back then) or on video, the next day by yourself you try to do it over and over...

Similar to sweeping Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers or Popovich and Duncan's Spurs, the 98' Jazz would sweep Curry's Warriors, who were a 1-man team with a 2nd option that produced less than Hornacek or 09' Mo.

Only the KD Warriors could compete with the Jazz, who were an all-time team but simply lost to the goat team (Jordan's Bulls)

Those guys are professional jumpers/leapers

Now imagine a pro leaper with goat basketball skill... Then add the assassin competitiveness and big man hands - that's MJ

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These are hilarious

The 80's was faster and more physical, while physicality reached all-time highs in the 90's.

Otoh, today's game shows players sauntering from 3-point line to 3-point line. Players don't even have to run the full court.. Today's game often looks like lazy pick-up ball.

Yeah they aren't ballers, but ballers see what is possible. Not necessarily with jumping and dunking, although I suppose they can get training tips, motivation to be strong and cut, and get ideas for jamming which doesn't help in the real game, but keeps things fun and having fun is important for learning. The love of the game...so they work on it all the time because there is nothing better (and girls come with it!)

But specific moves, they are constantly being invented, and they do filter up to the NBA. Or filter down when they see a new one in the NBA. It makes the game better, it makes the players better. A lot was learned from MJ and guys after, like Kobe...all athletic wings really, and they put their own stamp on it even if they weren't as good as the master, they still added to the bag, and guys learn from them, etc., geometrically, students have students, millions from youtube, etc. And Lebron has been competing against this evolution for a long time. He has benefitted from the evolution and yet it's a burden!

I don't believe a lot of this stuff, but AI does suggest that measured stats like above are showing guys are more athletic. It wouldn't withstand cross-examination imo. There are too many variables. Too many advances in how to jump. Measuring differences, record keeping gaps, methodology... Still, I'd bet it's easier to find snippets like above than the other way around.

Yeah, it's pretty lol about the league being more athletic back in the 80s/90s.

It's also pretty irrelevant to how good basketball is.

Joker is the best player of this generation and he can't jump over a witches hat. Curry/SGA/Luka aren't exactly dominating athletically either.

Bird/Magic owned the 80s and neither is winning a track meet.

It was proven earlier with real data that today's players are the shortest they've ever been at all 5 positions except PG.. Today's NBA doesn't even have any starting 6'7" SG's, while the 90"s had dozens.

So right away we know that today's players would be the least length that Jordan ever faced (by far), and the lack of length would be coupled with the most spacing ever and least physicality.

And of course today's open paint and small-ball strategy requires the least physicality or strength - I was joking with Fidstar that KD's Warriors would be the weakest team physically that Jordan ever faced, aka Kevin Looney/Curry/KD/Klay don't compare to Ewing/XMan/Mason/Oakley (4 Draymonds).

In addition to the least length and physically weaker players, I don't see a difference in hops or speed... We can split hairs about whether Kemp's hops compare to Blake Griffin, or Dominique's to Vince, but it's clearly pretty negligible either way .. In reality, the athleticism of today's best players like Jokic, Luka and SGA isn't that great, while the mass of 3-point robots further reduces the need for athleticism

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Starting 6'7" SG's in 1992:

Reggie Lewis
Reggie Miller
Steve Smith
Dale Ellis
Malik Sealy
Tony Campbell
Willie Anderson
Stacey Augmon
Dan Majerle
Clyde Drexler

Starting 6'7" SG'z in today's NBA:

^^^ 10 to 0

And the 90's had way more 6'6" SG's too... 6'5" was considered a little undersized for a SG back then

Well yeah when nobody had shooting range being tall was more important. Which led to an even less skilled game.

Do we have to go through the whole people lying about their heights again / people wearing shoes while being measured in the 90s.

Do I have to re-post the Hali/Reggie photo to show it.

Also, who cares????

Tacko Fall is better at basketball that Steph Curry

Majerle, Steve Smith, Dale Ellis, Reggie Miller, Reggie Lewis

So no, wrong again

You're forgetting that players were forced to shoot over packed paints in prior eras, so players needed to be great shooters on either 3's or mid-range to be a great scorer back then... Otoh, today's wide open paints allow bricklayers like Giannis, Westbrook and Lebron to just drive the lane all day for 30 ppg.. Today's spaced-out, hands-off, and open paint format is a beginner format for the offensive player.

^^^ That's the logic people use to put Lebron over MJ, aka bigger, stronger, etc

But sorting by height isn't the issue at hand.. The issue is how hard would it be for MJ to score in this era or Lebron in the 90's... When we analyze this issue, we see that Jordan faced far more length and taller players at 4 of the 5 positions back then... Furthermore, Jordan didn't have teammates spacing the floor with 30 threes per game (attempts).. Based on the lack of spacing, greater defensive length and greater physicality, Jordan had it much tougher back then compared to how he would have it in today's hands-off, spaced-out beginner format (and open paint/defensive 3).

^^^ Luka confirms my last 2 posts, and all my posts tbh
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Full Luka and JJ Reddick clip:

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I didnt realize Jordan stepped over the line, his heel was on it though. Lebron left a little later. Still Lebron gets my vote, he had more distance left after dunk than MJ and elevation.

and if that unseen ever before and since freight train with possibly goat vision and goat longevity shot 38% plus today he'd be the GOAT for the next 100 years. The athletic mix of size, strength, leaping and power will be impressive a century from now add that great 3 point shooting...take 100 yeas. Maybe. Freaks like Wemby, if built stronger, can shoot, maybe will come along. But with vision too. It's rare like life on these exoplanets we find, only earth had the right combo so far.

As it stands, if that dude shot what he has shot from 3 over the last several years...like that Lebron shooting the 3 and knowing the game like he does now...GOAT for maybe 50 years idk.

Nah, MJ took off from nearly the elbow in the 1st GIF below - taking off from nearly the elbow is further, based on the rules of geometry, while also outrunning defenders - MJ also posterizes Laimbeer from the elbow in the 3rd GIF:

MJ was also a goat 2-foot leaper and the goat 2-point jumpshooter and 87% on FT's, while shooting 36-43% on threes in seasons or series with 3+ attempts

I am unimpressed by the dunks you posted. I welcome other's opinions on this because I don't want to give the dunks the scrutiny needed to really evaluate. My sense is they objectively don't come close to matching the height and length of Lebron's dunk where his head seems to graze the net on the way down and he lands way out of bounds.

The problem is that Lebron is a beginner 2-point jumpshooter compared to Jordan or Kobe, and he had many seasons or series of poor 3-point shooting at 3+ attempts, while MJ never did.. Anytime Jordan decided to shoot today's volumes, he shot well.. Since MJ shot 36-43% at today's volumes WITHOUT practice, he would easily be among the best 3-point shooters WITH practice... This makes sense for the goat 2-point jumpshooter that shot 87% on FT's with perfect form

Jordan's dunks were diagonal and therefore further

This is objective fact regardless of whether you understand the geometry or not

Jordan's dunks were also far more graceful, fluid and impressive, while Lebron looks clunkier than Mike Conley Sr. dunking from behind the FT line w/ 2 hands