QQ in HJ facing a mubsy UTG 4bet
1/3. effective. Late morning game. 20 min $500 high hands, thirty people on the 1/2 list, so I played 1/3. Table is friendly calling stations who enjoy losing their money.
V (covers) has a VPIP/RFI/3B of 45/20/4. He’s calling limps, RFIs, and 3bts. Hero three-bet V six times over seventy-five hands. Each time V lost, four times by folding, twice by calling. When V drinks—most of the time—he is a high-variance self-destructive villain who scares his unaware opponents with big bets on all his draws. Today, he’s sober. He takes three times as long to think about bets. His posture is tense. He looks mubsy. When drinking, he thinks “call or raise.” When sober he thinks “call or fold.”
Hero (796) should have a LAG image to V. In earlier sessions years ago, while off my bipolar meds, we had some memorable hands. Today hero is on a heater. Hero has already taken half of V’s stack.
OTTH
V opens 15 UTG. Hero in HJ with red QQ raises 45. V 4bets to 125? Hero?
Call and proceed with caution post-flop. V seems loose enough and could be raising lighter given your dynamic.
OP, what do you think his range is? I normally fold QQ to 4bets because most of the population range is QQ+/AK or tighter. If that's applicable, you can just fold.
OP, what do you think his range is? I normally fold QQ to 4bets because most of the population range is QQ+/AK or tighter. If that's applicable, you can just fold.
When V drinks, he 4bet bluffs AKo and JJ against other LAGs. But this morning he’s mubsy. Maybe V is now frustrated at my 3bets? At higher stakes, do players 4bet AKo? I did not want to tank so I…
I feel like this kinda answers itself given the information you've provided? 4% is 99+,AQs+,AKo. If that's his 3bet range, then his 4bet range is probably KK+. And if it's QQ+, AK then okay, you're now a 40% underdog.
You said you've already played with him a lot and he presumably hasn't ever 4bet you. Now he's 4betting you for the first time. In other words, we have no reason to assume he's bluffing now. Like literally, all he did was not 4bet you and then 4bet once; if this is enough to put him on a bluff, then you have to put everyone who 4bets you for the first time in a long session on a bluff. I don't think that's a good idea.
If you think someone has reason to be on tilt, but they haven't shown any actual signs of being on tilt, then don't assume they are on tilt. It's gonna be a mistake most of the time.
When V drinks, he 4bet bluffs AKo and JJ against other LAGs. But this morning he’s mubsy. Maybe V is now frustrated at my 3bets? At higher stakes, do players 4bet AKo? I did not want to tank so I…
4betting AK is generally not a bluff. I mean you can do it as a bluff if you think someone would fold better hands in response. But AK is ahead of a solid 3betting range, so it's a 4bet for value or equity protection.
This feels like when I have kings on an ace high flop and get raised like this. The smart thing to do is get out now and not make villain tell you again he’s got the best hand.
It seems to me your various posts are portraying villain as a loose cannon fully capable of 4Betting light. You don’t really describe the ‘memorable hands’ but it implies to me gambling. So, yeah if you want to gamble with this guy, up to you.
I think the important questions
are around the 4Bet:
One, what does he want you to do? Call or fold
Two, what does he expect you, his LAG opponent, to do? Call or fold
If I call with my kings on that ace board and villain bets again, I have no new information.
So, if you think he’s fos and are willing to bet your stack on it, this is between you & him!
Call and evaluate, but unless you flop a set, don’t expect to have any new information before he bets again.
I hate these spots with QQ. I may actually fold pre. Definitely not 5B'ing. In position, I guess we could call, but I'm expecting to face a big c-bet a lot of the time. Even if he c-bets small, if we don't improve by the turn it's going to be hard to continue.
Hand continues
V opens 15 UTG. Hero in HJ with red QQ raises 45. V 4bets to 125. Hero? After seven seconds, Hero calls.
Flop (244): Qs4h8c
V bets 50. Hero has 671 behind. Hero?
Results in a few days.
Call?
Call. You’ll stack AA and KK on most runouts regardless. Let him bluff it off or catch up with AK.
I call flop.
I hate these spots with QQ. I may actually fold pre. Definitely not 5B'ing. In position, I guess we could call, but I'm expecting to face a big c-bet a lot of the time. Even if he c-bets small, if we don't improve by the turn it's going to be hard to continue.
Yeah, I don't know what people have in mind when they say re-evaluate flop. If you hit a set, congratultions you'll win a lot of money. In every other case, well either there's an overcard to the Q, in which case I assume we're folding, or there's not, in which case... what? Are we folding QQ overpair if opponent barrels through? Because if not, "re-evaluate Flop" is short of "go broke against KK or AA".
Gamble paid off this time…
Now it’s all about value and you know this villain well. If he’s going to call your suspicious jam, I’d put it in now.
Why did villain downbet to such a tiny size on the flop? I think you might be losing value just calling here. I need to be there, because this is all about villain reads.
I think at least double it to 100
It’s not gonna run him off and he might shove
Obviously, as others have mentioned, calling is fine too. Letting him keep the initiative could well be the best move.
Yeah, I don't know what people have in mind when they say re-evaluate flop. If you hit a set, congratultions you'll win a lot of money. In every other case, well either there's an overcard to the Q, in which case I assume we're folding, or there's not, in which case... what? Are we folding QQ overpair if opponent barrels through? Because if not, "re-evaluate Flop" is short of "
I think this player type will 4bet AK pre and then give up at some point post. Usually they play AA and KK pretty fast post-flop too.
On a low flop, I would call a cbet and consider folding if he jams turn. Going to get stacked once in a while probably.
I don’t hate folding pre. Seems like that would be a good default against fish regs at low stakes.
Hand continues
V opens 15 UTG. Hero in HJ with red QQ raises 45. V 4bets to 125. Hero? After seven seconds, Hero calls.
Flop (244): Qs4h8c
V bets 50. Hero has 671 behind. Hero?
Results in a few days.
Well...that's an above average flop for QQ. Must be nice.
Kudos to V for betting super small.
Based on your detailed read, he might be concerned about us having QQ. But if our image is LAG, I think we can raise now, and expect him to continue with AA/KK. I'd probably raise small, like $120. That will set up a slightly less than pot sized jam for the turn.
Alternatively, if you think he's too MUBSy today, just flat and see what happens. We can always bet small if he checks to us, and look to get it in on the river.
Pre is what ever. Don’t mind either option really.
Please don’t raise flop. Just let him barrel his AA/KK and bluffs if he has any.
Against an UTG raise/4better, deep, and who is likely not 4betting light today, I fold preflop. I'll admit a lot of this may depend on how deep on average your 1/3 NL game plays, but no one on a friendly daytime promo chasing MUBSy calling station table is looking to work towards getting in $800 stacks preflop without AA and possibly KK, end stop, imo. If your 1/3 NL game plays big with everyone always sitting on and splashing around with $1500, then maybe not. ETA: Also, with no dead money / no limpers to protect equity against, I wouldn't completely despise an initial flat either, but I'll be way outvoted on that.
ETA: "They are not playing back at me", "they are not playing back at me", "they are not playing back at me".
ETA#2: As played, SPR is lol 2.75, board is drawless, we're in position, and there are no action calling cards. I just call down for stacks and bet if checked to.
GcluelessNLnoobG
Finale
V opens 15 UTG. Hero in HJ with red QQ raises 45. V 4bets to 125. Hero? After seven seconds, Hero calls.
Flop (244): Qs4h8c
V bets 50. Hero has 671 behind. Hero? Hero actually bets 175. V calls!
Turn (594): 7r
V checks. Hero all-in.
V snap calls with 65s that drills the gutter and scoops, or folds AA/KK face-up.
Forum dwellers begin criticizing your line as an over-play, and say you should have flatted turn and raised river, which likely would have ended with the same result.
Before the reveal - I like your line. If he folds AA/KK or somehow shows up with a better hand, that sucks, but it happens. You got more value than you would have had you flat called the tiny turn bet.
Forum dwellers begin criticizing your line as an over-play, and say you should have flatted turn and raised river, which likely would have ended with the same result.
Definitely true for me, I would make that argument. I don't like this line. I mean this line is how I'd play if I were trying to get an overpair to fold. (Which I wouldn't try, and I expect Villain probably still calls here with KK or AA. I'm just saying that "raise flop, jam turn" is probably the line that maximizes fold%, though it probably doesn't reach 50%.)
I would indeed flat Flop, flat Turn, and only raise River. At least against a weak player, which V is according to description. Against a strong player, you can always justify unusual lines because they might use level 2 thinking ("you did this to make me think X, so I'll read it the opposite way"). As soon as you go there, any line that generally looks value-heavy could be used to bluff and vice-versa. But that doesn't seem to be this Villain.
There was no tiny Turn bet, there was a small flop bet, and then Hero already raised on the Flop. It's normal for people to bet small-ish on the Flop in 3bet pots and then size up on the Turn. if OP had flatted Flop and then Turn bet is also too small, then I think you have a much better argument for raising because you otherwise don't get stacks in. But as-is, Villain would have probably sized up by himself, and we didn't leave him that chance.
