1-2-5 Top pair, donked into
Eight-handed, 1-2 w/ a $5 bring in. The first hand when I sat down I played terribly. Ugh.
I raised from MP w/ QhJs, one
So if I show you my hand preflop are you ever calling with a worse hand to try and catch up?
Maybe for a min-raise. Maybe. But what's the point? I can just fold and go on to the next hand.
Essentially I'm just trying to dispel this quasi-results oriented idea that you "got money in ahead" because you raised a donkbet. It's very "i played my hand" vs "I played his range" oriented. Even I anticipated that by the turn allin you stood a reasonable chance of still being ahead but borderline flipping considering the outrageous action you generated raising the flop multiway. At that point it just becomes incredibly hard to define anyone's hand especially with your holding. We're just hoping that we're ahead essentially. Both villains are protecting each other by playing cautiously from that point on, so you can still easily run into monsters, and this is just the nature of multiway pots.
Ultimately nobody was making a mistake just because you raised with the current best hand, the same way you arent making a mistake calling me preflop with 45s when I literally show you AA. Honestly, I dont feel you raised JT to force them to make a mistake, I think you wanted them to play perfect and just fold so you could kill the hand and scoop the pot and not face further decisions. If you think deep down inside this might have been your true underlying motive then it's a leak that needs to be plugged.
Not trying to beat you up, Java. Somewhat echoing what I think Javi is getting at...
The two reasons to bet / raise are to build a pot we expect to win, and to deny equity. They're not necessarily / always mutually exclusive. Raising because you think you have the best hand is okay, but it's worth considering what your actual hand wants to do and what your raise actually wants to accomplish.
Our hand may or may not have been best when we're 2nd to act in a 3-way pot against two uncapped ranges. Even TT would be vulnerable to opponents' draws on this board. So while our actual hand may not have a huge expectation of winning the pot, our entire range benefits from equity denial.
I think you intuitively understood you could have the best hand, but might not, and that your hand was vulnerable. Your raise seemed intended to deny equity, by getting them to fold. If that's the goal, a bigger raise size would be more appropriate.
Hope that's helpful.
I managed to read both of your first sentences or so. You guys should learn to be more concise. (One reason I rarely read anything docvail writes.)
So, I raise because I think V2 is weak and on a draw and that I have the best hand and I don't want V1 to come along for cheap. If you disagree with that thinking, fine with me.
I'm not surprised you're barely reading bast the first sentence of our replies. I kinda pegged you for not really looking for feedback, I actually had you blocked but I saw the other replies and curiosity got the best of me. But hey thanks for the dismissive undertones making sure to let us know you arent paying attention to anything we say. For anyone else--
I think Sklansky put it best; play as if you could see your opponents cards.
You're right villain was weak, as tends to be the case with donkbets. Thing is a raise usually just makes them fold. Wouldnt you rather keep a weak range in vs your hand? I think raising for value against a weak range is just contradictory if not highly ambitious. If you flopped top set would you raise vs a donkbet? If the answer is no then you're bluffing with the best hand. If the answer is yes then you should be ranging them for having very strong hands, not weak hands. Strong hands give you the action that you want. And you said you didnt want the other guy to 'come along for cheap' but who says he's going to keep it cheap, he hasnt acted yet. What happens if he just dunks on you and 3bets in position, now how great do you feel about your hand? You cant think your had is both strong enough to tax draws but too weak to call vs them.
No, I don't want to keep his range in vs. my hand. My hand is vulnerable and it's a very draw-heavy board. That's why I raised. Why would I let him set a price for the turn with his draws by just calling -- especially with another player in the hand? That would be terrible. What do you put the other player on that can raise that's ahead of my hand? He flatted pre (the same guy who flatted the first hand then folded to the 3bet). He happens to show up with a set? T7?
As usual Java is scared to play future streets so she raises. When you fold out worse and get continues from better it’s called a game theory disaster.
I have no idea why you think I'm scared to play future streets, but you are welcome to your opinion. So you flat here when you hate almost every turn? Why not just fold now?
Because we sometimes have the best hand getting a good price in position. Hate every turn card is poor thinking - just because a queen is an over or a diamond completes the flush doesn’t mean he has that.
He’s out of position with likely a marginal hand - he has a lot more to worry about than we do.
So, CondemnedAracari, javi, and docvail: You raised pre-flop, have top pair (or a set) on a draw-heavy board and a player you think is weak and on a draw donks into you for 1/3 pot with another player behind you and you flat? Interesting.
Already have two respected posters who agree with me, but I would love other opinions.
I'm not surprised you're barely reading bast the first sentence of our replies. I kinda pegged you for not really looking for feedback, I actually had you blocked but I saw the other replies and curiosity got the best of me. But hey thanks for the dismissive undertones making sure to let us know you arent paying attention to anything we say. For anyone else--I think Sklansky pu
Not when that weak range has plenty of draws and pairs that won't fold. Sure raising for value against a weak range sounds contradictory but again if draws aren't folding we're simply raising for value.
If you flopped top set would you raise vs a donkbet?
If we flopped top set on this board and posted the hand the comments would unanimously be to raise.
I'm totally fine playing a small pot with a meh hand, sure, but to pretend the flop raise is somehow a huge mistake is just wrong. It's really not.
And you said you didnt want the other guy to 'come along for cheap' but who says he's going to keep it cheap, he hasnt acted yet. What happens if he just dunks on you and 3bets in position, now how great do you feel about your hand?
We then fold. This type of thinking makes no sense. By your logic we should flat QQ in the CO because BTN/SB/BB might wake up with a stronger hand and 4b us and ''now how great do you feel about your hand''.
Not when that weak range has plenty of draws and pairs that won't fold. Sure raising for value against a weak range sounds contradictory but again if draws aren't folding we're simply raising for value.
Really. Plenty of draws and pairs, just tons of them, that donkbet into 2 players and call a raise vs the same 2 players.
If we flopped top set on this board and posted the hand the comments would unanimously be to raise.
Well they'd be wrong too, because at that point all your prescribing is that you can only raise a donkbet for value, thus you are never bluffing, thus villains can just donkbet with impunity waiting for you to turn your cards face up. You do realize thats why they donkbet right? To "see where they're at", so nice of you to tell them they are behind.
to pretend the flop raise is somehow a huge mistake is just wrong. It's really not.
It's just a matter of proper range assessment. All I see here is a bunch of fear motivated play. You dont want to see an obvious draw completing turn therefore you raise; i.e. you'd be happy if you literally never saw the turn and they just folded.
By your logic we should flat QQ in the CO because BTN/SB/BB might wake up with a stronger hand and 4b us and ''now how great do you feel about your hand''.
By your logic we should call off that 5bet from BB because we've already come this far and range means nothing so he could have anything.
Not when that weak range has plenty of draws and pairs that won't fold. Sure raising for value against a weak range sounds contradictory but again if draws aren't folding we're simply raising for value.
Really. Plenty of draws and pairs, just tons of them, that donkbet into 2 players and call a raise vs the same 2 players.
I’d take you more seriously if you weren’t trying to convince me that fish are going to play correctly vs our raises. Not like our raise was called with a gutshot, oh wait, it was.
