GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
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MJ's scoring rate, shot attempts, and usage increased in the triangle:
PER 100 POSSESSIONS
Playoffs
85-89' MJ........ 42.9 pts... 29.7 FGA..... 35.1 usage
90-93' MJ........ 44.4 pts... 33.4 FGA..... 36.1 usage
We also can agree that Jordan and Kobe sucked unless they had Phil Jackson, the mind and body master.
The Pistons went undefeated in the 89' and 90' Playoffs, except going 8-6 against the Bulls.
This matters because it shows that Jordan had developed the Bulls to the 3rd-best team by the end of the 89' Playoffs... Phil simply inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals and the best young team on the league... Phil said that his triangle would "spread the wealth" and take pressure off Jordan, except Jordan's scoring rate, FGA, and usage increased in the triangle (above).. So Phil was just lucky that he had the goat to carry his top-heavy offense (spread the wealth my sss lol).
The Lakers were 8-2 in the first 10 games Lebron played. Then Reeves and Luka and Ayton all started having injuries. They're 1-4 since. Lebron isn't the guy. He wasn't trying to be the guy. He was doing pretty well as the 3rd option. But then he was forced to step up, and he definitely isn't capable. Reeves is out for another month now.
I doubt they would've done any better than 1-4 in those 5 games if he hadn't played.
If you weren't so ridiculously biased I might have actually been on your side in all this. You literally made people like me shift their opinions against you. A solid case can be made that MJ is the GOAT, but it's not the nonsense you're spouting.
The Lakers were 8-2 in the first 10 games Lebron played. Then Reeves and Luka and Ayton all started having injuries. They're 1-4 since. Lebron isn't the guy. He wasn't trying to be the guy. He was doing pretty well as the 3rd option. But then he was forced to step up, and he definitely isn't capable. Reeves is out for another month now. I doubt they would've done
Lakers were 8-2 in spite of negative Lebron - they lost with him on the floor... And obviously they could only carry the extra weight so long before the wheels fell off.. Now the whole team is hurt.
And again, Reaves averaged 28 ppg last season in games without Lebron, and 19 with him - so Lebron destroys Austin Reaves and has ruined his career... This season was Reaves ' window of opportunity - there won't be another one, aka edges are THIN in today's NBA, and missed opportunities often cost a player.. Reaves may never have a stretch of great momentum with Luka like he had to start the season.
If you weren't so ridiculously biased I might have actually been on your side in all this. You literally made people like me shift their opinions against you. A solid case can be made that MJ is the GOAT, but it's not the nonsense you're spouting.
The issue is that LeFraud doesn't have a goat case, so MJ doesn't even need a "case" - he's simply the goat and always has been... It's been a fake debate and even Lebron's peers like Jeff Teague admit it.
Once each guy got "help", Jordan mostly won every year, while Lebron mostly lost every year... That's the obvious difference.
Between the two of them, only Lebron has losses with preseason favorites, 1 or 2 seeds, Finals teams, and sweep or gentleman sweeps with star teammates (aka "bad" losses)... Lebron can't get anywhere near a goat team, 3-peat or dynasty regardless of who we put around him..
The bron-ball skillset is simply too easy to beat because he has endless record margin losses, upsets or sweep losses to MANY DIFFERENT OPPONENTS and multiple drubbings by the same opponent (Spurs, Warriors, Nuggets, Mavs, Magic, TWolves, Suns, Celtics)
And the reason that Jordan, Curry, and Duncan can produce great teams with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player is because their assisted/off-ball skillset allows great brand of ball and chemistry (ball movement).. Otoh, Lebron's ball-dominant skillset imposes spot-up roles and weaker chemistry that requires more talent and teaming up with opposing franchise players.. It's clear as day..
You don't find it curious that all the dynasties in history were known for great ball movement??.. That's because of the PERSONNEL (great jumpshooters or bigs, aka highly-assisted skillsets promote ball movement/sophisticated offense)
I'm sorry to hear your grandad died of cancer.
Spoiler
DAMN YOU LEBRON!!! DAMN YOU TO HELL!!!!!
It was back in 1993 so it's pretty ****ed up child LeBron would have done that.
The Pistons went undefeated in the 89' and 90' Playoffs, except going 8-6 against the Bulls.
This is not true.
The 89' and 90" Pistons were 8-5 vs Bulls and 22-1 vs everyone else .. The 89' Bulls upset the #1 SRS Cavs and Ewing's Knicks before winning the only games any team won against the Pistons
This shows that Jordan developed the Bulls to the 3rd-best team by the end of the 89' Playoffs... Phil simply inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals and the best young team on the league...
We can confirm that Phil didn't save MJ because Phil said that his triangle would "spread the wealth" and take pressure off Jordan, except Jordan's scoring rate, FGA, and usage increased in the triangle (above).. So Phil was just lucky that he had the goat to carry his top-heavy offense MORE THAN ANYONE EVER CARRIED AN OFFENSE (spread the wealth my sss lol).
Ultimately, Lebron proved far too beatable to have a goat case.
He got upset by bad teams like the 11' Mavs, 09' Magic, 25' Wolves, or 24' Nuggets, and then lost to good teams by record amount or sweep on 4 different occasions (14', 17', 18', 23').. He also has a lottery record on the championship level, so his Finals teams are the most beatable in history
No one ever lost BADLY so many times and to so many different teams.
This is a horrific record that shows he's too easy to beat and not worthy of a goat case.. Teams get excited to meet Lebron in the playoffs because it's proven to be a resounding blowout win or upset nearly every time.
Ultimately, once each guy got "help", Jordan mostly won every year, while Lebron mostly lost every year (badly)... That's the obvious difference.. One guy was the hardest to beat and the other was the easiest...
Specifically, the instant Jordan got an all-star teammate, he didn't lose 3 straight games for 9 years (RS and PO) and went 6 for 6 against Finals teams... Otoh, when we gave Lebron guys like Wade/Bosh, he lost by record amount and record surprise/upset... Give him guys like Kyrie/Love and watch him get demolished by record margin over and over... Or watch him go 1 for 6 with AD... He's the easiest all-timer to beat that mostly loses wherever he goes, regardless of cast.
Fun fact about the 11 Mavs
Lakers losing to them was a bigger upset than the Heat losing to them.
Another black mark for Kobe.
Wow. LA were swept!
Being a -360 favourite and getting swept is all time bad.
Imagine if this was LeBron. FG would be all over it.
Kobe got outplayed by Jason Terry. Kobe had more turnovers than assists in the series.
Over the last 3 games of the series Kobe averaged 19ppg, 2 rebounds and 3 assists. Talk about giving up on the team when down 0-1.
Supposed to be the Kobe/Lebron final but Kobe was way too scared to get in that ring.
Pretty standard of Kobe not standing up when he needs to. Unfortunately Shaq/Pau didn't save his ass that year, like they did in any of his other championship runs.
Kobe had 5 rings, so nobody cares what happens when he finally loses - he was going to lose eventually.
Otoh, Lebron lost as the league favorite for the 3rd straight year while pursuing his FIRST ring, so people wondered if he would ever win and if there was a choking gene or something that prevented winning
Accordingly, you have to compare apples to apples, i.e. Kobe was swept when pursuing the 3-peat in 2011, but Lebron was beat by record amount when he pursued a 3-peat in 2014... Both are bad and don't compare to MJ, but at least Kobe didn't lose by record amount, so Kobe's is above Lebron
Wow. LA were swept!
Being a -360 favourite and getting swept is all time bad.
Imagine if this was LeBron. FG would be all over it.
Losses as the series favorite
1) Lebron vs 09' Magic -700
2) Lebron vs 10' Celts -500
3) Lebron vs 21' Suns -300
4) Lebron vs 25' TWolves -190
5) Lebron vs 11' Mavs -175
^^^ 5 losses as the series favorite based on Vegas odds, and 2 of them were worse than any of Kobe's.
Checkmate
Lebron also lost other series as the media and fan favorite, such as the 14' Finals and 23' WCF.
For 16 of 22 seasons, Lebron was either lottery, upset, locked up, or a "bad loss" (swept or gentleman swept with a star teammate) - that's 16 of 22 seasons.. He basically had a horrible career of stat-padding - a selfish, personal style of play that mostly lost every year with the most stacked of casts
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40-yr MJ still played defense:
^^^ lebron is a losing player at 40, while MJ was a winning player at 40
Lebron fans and media don't realize that IT'S OVER
Lebron isn't a competitive player anymore.. He needs to come off the bench in a very limited role - this is the only way that he can have a positive on-off and the Lakers win with him on the floor.
And Lebron's defensive cratering EXPOSES that 40-year MJ was superior at basketball because he could still play defense for 35-40 minutes per night - this is why MJ had a positive one-off, while Lebron is a massively-losing player because he's the worst defender in the entire league.
Replace Lebron with 40-year MJ (who was almost exclusively an off-ball player to fit with Luka) and this Laker team would contend
Btw, notice how the Lakers' OFFENSE also declined massively when Lebron returned... Reaves cratered and the great chemistry died between Luka/Reaves/Ayton/Rui... This weaker offensive attack increased their defensive requirements, since they face fresher opponents that aren't on their heels/worn down from the Luka/Reaves' attack
Pretty standard of Kobe not standing up when he needs to. Unfortunately Shaq/Pau didn't save his ass that year, like they did in any of his other championship runs.
Finals PPG
09' Kobe..... 32.4
09' Pau....... 18.6
GAP............. 13.8
10' Kobe..... 28.6
10' Pau....... 18.6
GAP............. 10.0
^^^ Kobe successfully carried the scoring load on the championship level, aka defeated max defensive attention, which Lebron never did... Kobe averaged 10-14 more than his sidekick, compared to only 2-6 for Lebron in his Finals wins (Jordan averaged 10-20 more in every Finals).
Excessive ball-dominance can't beat top teams, so that's why Lebron can't carry the scoring load on the championship level, or carry weak help over top teams (never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick) .
Ultimately, carrying the "star" category of scoring requires less stars and allows GM's to find the right defenders or "others", aka elite roster construction.. So Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load prevents elite roster construction compared to Kobe's rosters, while his skillset of imposing spot-up roles also prevents teammate development and roster construction.. Lebron's ball-dominant skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically).. Carry on
Fact check.
Wizards were better on the defensive end when MJ was off the court in both seasons.
Kobe was swept and played terrible. That's ALL TIME bad and there's no way around it.
"No one cares". ****ing lol.
Fact check.Wizards were better on the defensive end when MJ was off the court in both seasons.
^^^ Are you serious???... Lebron's numbers are 10 times worse!!.. Those numbers make MJ look amazing compared to Lebron.
The negligible decline in Wizards' defense when MJ was on the floor was more than offset by the big increase in team offense.. Otoh, the Lakers big decline in defense when Lebron is on the floor is worsened by a big decline in offense as well - so there's no comparison between Jordan's positive net rating and Lebron's massively negative one.. Jordan's defense was solid enough that the team was nearly the same on that end, while Lebron craters the defense (and offense)... The numbers you posted for Jordan make him look completely amazing compared to Lebron.. I dare you to post MJ and Lebron's numbers side by side (I know you won't).
Accordingly, the point remains - 40-year LeRoid is a better dunker than 40-year MJ, but MJ was far better at basketball by being a far better defender, while also drastically helping his teams offense.. This contrasts with 40-year Lebron, who craters the Lakers on offense and defense.. And again, the decline on offense gives the Lakers higher defensive requirements because they face fresh opponents that haven't been on their heels/worn down from the prolific attack of Luka/Reaves (and Ayton/Rui).. Defense is always easier when you're facing an opponent that's lost some tread on the tires
I actually think fallguy made a good point somewhere.
When you have Lebron on your team, then you basically a set to only play Lebron style of basketball.
Where as Jordan operated in the triangle aka a set system of plays.
Maybe it's a bad idea to entrust 1 person to hold complete control and flow over your offense.
I'm gonna ask chat gpt.
It said not necessarily so gotta trust the AI god and say fallguy is off.
Fidstar helped by showing that the Wizards' defense in 2003 remained basically the same with Jordan on the floor (104.1 drtg) compared to off the floor (103.7), while the offense improved significantly.
This contrasts with the Lakers' defense cratering with Lebron on the floor, along with their offense cratering as well..
Lebron's defense simply isn't playable for more than 15 minutes without hurting the team's drtg massively, while Jordan's defense was solid for 37 MPG at 40 years old... Since Jordan was a far better defender than Lebron and therefore could play meaningful minutes, he's the better ball player at 40 years old.. It's settled.
When you have Lebron on your team, then you basically a set to only play Lebron style of basketball.
Where as Jordan operated in the triangle aka a set system of plays.
It isn't a set of plays like every other offense.
Its a read and react offense that's too sophisticated for today's "downhill" skillsets
Maybe it's a bad idea to entrust 1 person to hold complete control and flow over your offense.
The issue is that Lebron's way is a perennial loser, and he isn't capable of playing the other way (elite ball movement), which produces the best teams and all the dynasties.
In the play-by-play era, there's never been a primary ballhandler that was the 1st option for the best basketball, aka dynasty (3 in 5) or dominant title run (1 loss average per round, 4 losses max).. The 1st option for all the dynasties and dominant title runs are bigs or jumpshooters (highly-assisted skillsets/positions), since they allow the elite ball movement required for the best basketball.
Ultimately, when each guy "got help", Jordan mostly won every year, while Lebron mostly lost (badly).. Jordan was unbeatable, while Lebron was EXTREMELY beatable... He's 17-36 in the playoffs against the Spurs, Warriors and Nuggets, while having upset losses to 1-star teams like the Mavs, Magic and TWolves... aka the bad teams upset him, and the good teams beat him by record amount... For 16 of 22 seasons, Lebron was either lottery, upset, locked up in a series loss, or he had a "bad loss" (sweep or gentleman sweep with a superstar teammate)..
He played 600 fewer games for ****s sake. Lebron is closer to doubling him up on games and minutes than Jordan is to him.
