TT vs LAG 3! pre

Given reads/range, shove is good considering it's basically 50bb. However, I still think a flat to get V1 in and shoving most flops works -- and might win more since they will feel more committed than they were pre. Also, V1 might feel compelled to shove wider pre for less than 50bb. Not worried about V2.

$550 is a lot pre-flop, and V1 would have to call pretty wide to be behind TT for his stack -- so would V3. But shove is fine. I'm never folding.

It's a straddled pot, so 50bb. I agree a call is not conventional -- it's based solely on reads/dynamic.

i don't really see what a call does for you. tens are not strong enough to trap with

idk why u keep saying its 50bb. hes 66bb vs the opener, 50 bb vs the cold caller, and 92bb vs the squeezer.

theres 50bb sims on gtow and its sort of confusing to figure out which one to go with, but tens look very close vs like hj open / co call / btn sqz to smaller sizes. the issue here is button is most likely to have a hand to go with and when he does we are putting in 90bb not 50 vs a range we dont do particularly well against. i get the opener and caller are going to be wider than equilibrium sims likely dictate but i just find it difficult to believe if v3 is a winning player / good he has much of a range that puts in 85 that is light given both pot odds facing a shove and possible spr situation if either v calls his squeeze. this is very different than if everyone is 100bb and someone opens to 2.5bb and someone calls and he makes it 11bb. i think best case scenario is v3 has a bunch of hands that have 50% equity against us that he folds it just feels not that thrilling to me to stack off here tbh into 2 uncapped ranges (one probably opening 25?% of hands and one 3betting maybe 8-10?; opener likely goes with 5%, 3bettor with 3%, cold caller probably never stacks off). idk should be easyish to do the math from there, would guess it hinges on how much v3 is 3betting and how wide he spites vs the jam but it feels like you need 60-65?% folds and i dont think u quite get that much. math might be off though bc i think we're closeish to indifferent to getting it in vs the opener given the dead money idk man

had initially misread and thought opener was 300 and cold caller 400 as opposed to vice versa. am slightly more open to him being wider given this but cant go back and edit everything. still think conclusion will be similar

Sorry, you are right. It's close to 100bb for H, but V2 is 50bb (we are not worried about him) and V1 has ~65 bb.

We are playing against a LAG and a whale. I'm trying to get V1 in the hand or to just shove w/ worse -- although that range from banana is a little tighter. I still think if we flat it might open that range up a little, but I could be wrong. Also, if V1 just calls, they both might feel committed to calling a flop shove by H w/ a wide range.

And who knows, maybe V2 will go for it.

If we shove now and they both fold or call, that's fine, too.

Personally, vs these two, I'm never folding.

I mean we all have bad days/hands/whatever ... but I would be _very_ cautions about calling V a crusher after seeing this hand.

Like cold 4bet 77 is def. not a thing.

And 1.5x turn praying for folds with basically zero equity when called.

Remembering this would 100% lean me towards shoving TT though. So maybe it's good from that POV ¯\_(ツ😉_/¯

That 77 hand is atrocious. This guy is not good.

likely misreported but the 77 hand looks ok fyi

Result:

this is ~300bb ranges. its frequency play pre and then around 1% ev loss to use this size instead of b67 ott. but will make it in pure to whichever turn size u choose and mix give ups otr

My thinking was a call lets you get away from a AKQ flop and get it in on a 742 flop. There’s more low flops than high, but I would have gotten coolered here anyway against the jacks.

I might shove if I felt villain would over-fold, but going after the dead money in this situation is a flip of a coin, a gamble. We all have our styles, but I’m trying to take as much gamble out of the game as possible.

I’m mostly a raise or fold player, so I can be talked out of calling. It’s easy to think that laggy villain is 3betting wide from the button and will give you credit. However, when you say crusher, I don’t think he’s 3betting light very often, even from the button.

After more consideration, I think many of you are right that calling is wrong here. I don’t like mixing it up with a strong, aggressive player OOP, so in the future, I can fold this hand.

Not sure about jacks though….

Your screenname makes the reveal so much better.

How big is your pair, banana?!! I'm almost there banana!!! Ohhh banana!!!

Right so you're essentially set-mining with no where near the odds required and it's not like you're ever going to be comfortable getting it on a 742 flop. Call is just the worst option by a lot.

You can do this by making sound preflop decisions. Calling here is the opposite of that. It's completely fine to fold here too, take the low variance route.

Kanu's _6_ handed at 200bb
UTG open
CO 3bet
BTN pure folds 77

...and those are for solver sizes.

Smash live cash, doesn't have cold 4bets ... but the 3bets of 77 are around 15%.

GTOwiz for 100bb does have 77 specifically as a cold 4bet at 100bb about 3-4% ... but it's a -0.01 EV play, so I assume the solver is doing it for ranges on later streets with how 7x hands interact with boards? (88 is pure fold, and 99 4bets less than 77).

Not sure if you are doing antes, or some AI thing, but I'm not sure how you are getting 77 as a cold 4bet as a reasonable thing to do.

Even the best 2-5 players who study a lot just aren't getting that kind of randomization correct live, IMNSHO. Also your posted image looks like way more than the 3-4%.

idk what kanus ranges or smash live cash are but i would guess they are simplifications to come up with pure ranges. but 77 does get in there at very low frequency in most of the deeper gtow solves.

think you want to be really careful about assuming someone doing something that you don't understand makes them terrible. doubly so when the guy is advertised as being very good and beating stakes higher than u play. even if its a 0% frequency at equilibrium maybe he has live read or sizing read on banana or he's just seen him spew pre as his posted hands seem to indicate (he has a current hand posted of cold 4ing vs an ep opener and a tilted loose passive squeezer with AJo) or he just thinks for whatever reason it will get through enough. deciding THIS GUY COLD 4 77 HAHAHA I KNEW HE SUCKS is wild and very likely extremely counter productive to any kind of improvement process. he is also allowed to make a mistake in a node in a hand and still be good / winning at poker. will admit op has poor track record of posted reads

If someone is used to playing $25-$50+ and they decide to splash around at $1/$3, do you really think any of the hands they play are going to be illustrative of their A-game?

Maybe he's just whaling about for the LOLz because the whole buy-in is one straddle in his usual game.

^ possible. but he seems like the kind of person that tries to make the right decision in each spot regardless of the stakes? like he's a humble guy..

results seem fairly obvious that he is trying

Definitely getting it in on a low flop with two cards to fade

Just disagree - set mining never enters my mind - calling with value (maybe 6th best hand in Hold’em)

You’re plan is to put all the money in because you think he opens wide

I’m all about taking the dead money, but you are very inflexible in your thinking. I’ve seen your type before. You don’t come here to learn, you come here for validation. Hey, I think you’re wrong, but think what you want.

Keep talking and maybe you’ll convince somebody and you can pat each other on the back.

Meanwhile, most crushers 3bet linear, even from the button, so fold is better than shove. But he could have a wide range, so call and gather info.

If you simply said fold, I would respect you
If you didn’t attack others, I would respect you

By the way, I don’t care about this one decision point - and I will skim past and leave you be going forward.

People with way too much money can be difficult at 1/3. A few players in the room sneak money in their stack. Capped $400 buyin, they haven’t played a hand, and you look and $700 is in their stack. Nobody says anything.

Then there’s the guy jacking it up, straddling, trying to get people involved early, so he can make opponents uncomfortable with big bets later. These are not whales, they play a tough game.

As a morning/afternoon player, I don’t get the drunks wandering out of their A-game. Many rich candidates avoid the poker room, because people have the impression it’s all sharks, they have no chance, so let’s play slots.

Somewhere in the 80s on the way to the room at Binions, I noticed a PLO game with a seat open and an European lady with a diamond on every finger, betting away and showing her hand to everyone. Obviously, I sat down.

That’s hard to find now days. Somewhere down the line the poker community made a mistake by making the masses think it’s too hard to win in the poker room. We probably have lost hundreds of thousands of people that would have sat down in our fun games.

So, back around to it. I wouldn’t immediately think that villain is out of line. Sometimes players are running bad when they drop stakes and you can bet they’re trying to win.

Every poker game is an adventure with strangers to decipher, people to exploit, people to avoid, and little time to figure it out before there’s another decision to be made.

Someone can be winning at high stakes sit in a lower game and have no respect for the game. They can also make bad plays for THAT stake AND they can still not be as good as you think. Looking at whether or not 4betting 77 at 1/3 is good is ridiculous. But spoiler: it's not.

Regardless, I think the tens shove was good banana and I would have done it too.

ah yes the mythical player that can beat high stakes but cannot figure out your 1/3 game