PAHWM: A2s goes bananas
1/3 - call 5 only NLHE
This is the only room I know where a good 1/3 player could make a decent living. I do about 30 BBs
Check. Hand plays well 6-ways and deep. Should be able to win a lot with flush over flush. Don't want to isolate against a better hand.
Was going to respond yesterday how A2s doesn't play well at all multiway let alone 6-ways and this is supported by theory but cba having that discussion. Then Doc posted the below and I couldn't help myself.
His post is exactly why these hands don't play well multiway. Flop a flush, play it passive or bet small and in both situations win the min because we're more worried about losing the max.
I think it's fine to check and see what deveops. We have the 4th nuts. We can play it like a bluff catcher on early streets, and go for value on later streets, depending on the run out and action.If we bet, I wouldn't bet more than $10. We can keep betting small until we get raised. When we limp in the straddle we could credibly have J7hh or 76hh, but any of our opponents could
I think it's fine to check and see what deveops. We have the 4th nuts. We can play it like a bluff catcher on early streets, and go for value on later streets, depending on the run out and action.If we bet, I wouldn't bet more than $10. We can keep betting small until we get raised. When we limp in the straddle we could credibly have J7hh or 76hh, but any of our opponents could
Calling A2hh the "fourth nuts" is kind of disingenuous IMO. We may have the "fourth nuts" by definition, but we only lose to three combos. If we had KThh on Q72hhh, we have the pure second nuts, but we lose to seven combos. And even then, I would still be trying to pump money into the pot on the flop. There are just so many worse hands (including dozens of combos that WE have drawing dead) that will call.
Was going to respond yesterday how A2s doesn't play well at all multiway let alone 6-ways and this is supported by theory but cba having that discussion. Then Doc posted the below and I couldn't help myself. His post is exactly why these hands don't play well multiway. Flop a flush, play it passive or bet small and in both situations win the min because we're more worried about
Mostly agree with all the above.
On the other hand, in this case H is just checking his option preflop, so basically free rolling.
And I do agree with OP and others, that it may be quite hard to take it down with a squeeze preflop, or even getting to HU.
In this hand, it's the difference between having 80% equity in a $60 pot with terrible reverse implied odds and having 95% equity in a $300 pot HU or 90% equity in a $450+ pot three ways where we can very comfortably just get the rest in and expect worse to be roped in often enough.
If I knew a raise wasn't going to get LRR'ed and I'd smash the ~nuts on the flop HU/3ways, yeah, that's a pretty good plan. But what about the other 99% of the times (when some idiot like me LRR's, or when we completely whiff the flop OOP, or perhaps even worse we actually hit TP, etc.)? I guess the more confident you are in the latter cases (OOP in a bloated pot with nothing or weak TP) the cooler you are in getting yourselves into that spot, but I'm fine avoiding it and ~nutmining.
As for flopping the nut flush but being a little dicey wanting to get in stacks thanks to there being 3 possible straight flushes (i.e. the discussion above suggesting that Axs plays horrible multiway cuz here we are and we're not even completely thrilled playing for gobs), this is a pretty extreme case (i.e. how often are we going to flop the nut flush where there are better hands?). Mostly when we make the nut flush (and almost always when we flop it) we'll have the stone cold nuts, in a juiced pot at a table where people can't seem to wait to shovel in chips with mediocre hands (a dream situation).
GcluelessNLnoobG
Flop 60 - T♥ 9♥ 8♥
We reach for chips but then decide this table has been quite stabby so we check...
V1 pauses and checks while staring at us...
V2 bets 15
V3 calls 15
V4 calls 15
V5 clicks it to 35...
et toi? there's 140$ in the pot...
Is there a BBJ in this room? Cuz if so almost everyone will slowplay made BBJ hands on early streets so that they don't blow out potential runner runner BBJ hands.
Anyhoo, kinda weird spot where we don't want to face everyone behind us with a reraise, and plus the raiser might be the one guy we don't want to play for stacks against thanks to being so crazy deep (especially if no BBJ considerations). So I think I probably sigh flat with intentions of donking safe turns.
GcluelessNLnoobG
I preferred betting because we don't really want Vs to fold two pair. A big x/r, I think folds out 2p a lot. I kind of want to call now and cross my fingers hoping that V2 thinks he has a strong hand and goes for the 3!. If V2 has something like a set, he has incentive to ratchet it up right now. If V2 calls, everyone else is calling too, and V5 is kind of forced to go big if he's going to bet again. If V5 has something like a K high flush, he will amp up the bet on brick turns for us, but might nit up if we x/r big. We have position on him so we have the option of picking up the betting lead if he checks.
So as much as I want to get it in right now, I don't think a big x/r is a good way to do that against the hands we want to call. If we had bet $50+ and then V5 clicks it back that's very different than checking and ratcheting it up after this much interest has been demonstrated from V2 & V5. We actually have a hand that is kind of ok playing Monkey in the Middle. between V2 and V5 if they go to war.
I don't think raising now is horrible, but maybe calling is slightly better.
Mostly agree with all the above.
On the other hand, in this case H is just checking his option preflop, so basically free rolling.
And I do agree with OP and others, that it may be quite hard to take it down with a squeeze preflop, or even getting to HU.
I don't disagree btw, pre is entirely fine, not my preferred choice but I don't think it's always a raise either, I'm just saying that this forum loves saying ''plays well multiway'' when it really doesn't. For example, had villain opened to anything over 3x(if memory serves me) this is a fold multiway, not a call because we're 6-ways and it ''plays well multiway'' and this only becomes more of a fold the worse the rake structure is in your game.
As for flopping the nut flush but being a little dicey wanting to get in stacks thanks to there being 3 possible straight flushes (i.e. the discussion above suggesting that Axs plays horrible multiway cuz here we are and we're not even completely thrilled playing for gobs), this is a pretty extreme case (i.e. how often are we going to flop the nut flush where there are better h
Apart from theory supporting these hands do not in fact play well multiway, the problem is all the ifs. You're basically hoping that the flop is 38Khhh so there's no better hands possible and that the run out is somehow no more hearts and the board doesn't pair. Yeah I don't play poker with hope as a tactic but that's just me.
If you want a fun exercise, try to figure out how often you flop flush over flush(super rare) and/or how often your hand is still the stone cold nuts by the river. I'll give you a hint, it's far lower than you think it is.
Watch everyone now suggest to flat the raise because mubs.
Calling A2hh the "fourth nuts" is kind of disingenuous IMO. We may have the "fourth nuts" by definition, but we only lose to three combos. If we had KThh on Q72hhh, we have the pure second nuts, but we lose to seven combos. And even then, I would still be trying to pump money into the pot on the flop. There are just so many worse hands (including dozens of combos that WE have d
"Disingenuous"? Really? The definition is "not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does."
Is that what you meant? In what way do you think I wasn't being candid or sincere?
Yes, we only lose to three combos, but it's easy for any of our opponents to have one of those combos in this multi-way limped pot, and it's unlikely that there are many flush combos that are worse than ours that would be fist-pumping to get stacks in.
The best possible "bluffs" would be hands that have the Jh in them, but not QJhh or J7hh specifically. So KJhh could be here, if one of our opponents is just limping in with that combo rather than raising pre. Maybe there are some other JXhh combos, assuming someone is VPIP'ing J6s and worse JXs combos, which seems optimistic.
Of our five opponents, OP described two as "thinking", one as an "OMC", and one as "seemingly semi-aware". What are the odds any of those four are going to go buck-wild with KJhh or JXhh? Maybe the "turbo fish" (whatever that means) will torch, but will any of the others?
Other than one of those JXhh combos being turned into a bluff, all the other worse flush combos are going to be either KQ, which might have raised pre, Q7s and worse QXs, which likewise seems optimistic, or low combos - 65 down to 43. There aren't really that many combos we can cooler.
Many people will limp-VPIP pre with at least two of the three combos we lose to, they'll mostly fold all the 6X and lower flushes to serious aggression (unless our opponents are seriously terrible), and often raise pre with the combos we cooler.
We're not upset to have flopped the nut flush, but I wouldn't want to play for 700+ BB on this board, in a six-way limped pot.
Flop 60 - T♥ 9♥ 8♥
We reach for chips but then decide this table has been quite stabby so we check...
V1 pauses and checks while staring at us...
V2 bets 15
V3 calls 15
V4 calls 15
V5 clicks it to 35...
et toi? there's 140$ in the pot...
It's super-multi-way and a monotone flop. Even terrible players in a loose-splashy game are going to have super-low bluffing frequencies, and tend to play their hands very face up.
We can't fold for such a small amount. A raise just folds out a ton of worse hands. Just call and see what happens. At least we have position on the opponent repping the nuts. I'm somewhat expecting everyone else to fold, if they're reasonably competent and aren't sand-bagging.
"Disingenuous"? Really? The definition is "not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does."Is that what you meant? In what way do you think I wasn't being candid or sincere?Yes, we only lose to three combos, but it's easy for any of our opponents to have one of those combos in this multi-way limped pot, and it's unlikely
We can quibble about the vocabulary, but yeah, I think referring to the ace high-flush as the "fourth nuts" here is an intentional choice that obscures the strength of the hand.
The rest of your post is nonsensical. It's actually incredibly difficult for our opponents to have a hand that beats us at the present moment. And KJhh and JXhh on this board are absolutely not bluffs -- those are value hands that will bet-call and raise-call this flop for value. Other combos we need to target are straights, sets, two pairs, and offsuit Jh and 7h hands, all of which are abundant in the opponents' limping ranges.
I might just call and hope a few others come along. However, given your image, they might think you are raising with the naked A, so a raise to $100 would be OK. Whatever will get the most money in there -- Just don't fold 😉
We can quibble about the vocabulary, but yeah, I think referring to the ace high-flush as the "fourth nuts" here is an intentional choice that obscures the strength of the hand. The rest of your post is nonsensical. It's actually incredibly difficult for our opponents to have a hand that beats us at the present moment. And KJhh and JXhh on this board are absolutely not bluffs -
No idea why I'd want to obscure anything.
It may be hard for our opponents to have us beat, but it's not impossible, and it seems optimistic to think we can target straights and 2P for value. Maybe sets.
If the only two possible outcomes here are we cooler the 5th nuts and worse, or we get coolered holding the 4th nuts, maybe we can hedge a bit and see what happens on the turn before we over-commit to our hand.
It's super-multi-way and a monotone flop. Even terrible players in a loose-splashy game are going to have super-low bluffing frequencies, and tend to play their hands very face up. We can't fold for such a small amount. A raise just folds out a ton of worse hands. Just call and see what happens. At least we have position on the opponent repping the nuts. I'm somewhat expecting
Yes, I know we lose to 3 straight flushes, but we should never be thinking of folding unless the board pairs or there is 4 to a straight flush on the board.
You probably need to just call the flop rather than cold 3!.
Against a range of solely sets and flopped SF, we have about 53% equity. So yeah we need to be willing to pile money in on the flop. The question is how do we get the most money in right now? And if we can keep 2P and a hand like KJhh putting more money in that's great.
Flat calling is risky, but I think it opens the door for the "thinking fish" to kick it up a notch and hopefully he has a hand that he thinks needs protection. If we cold 3!, I think even sets will just call. The dream is the pot is 3!, a few calls and then we can just jam and the sets are committed and might get a YOLO call from weaker. The good news is that if everyone really has a piece of this flop, they are stomping all over each other's outs.
This a 6-way limped pot in a 1/3 game. As long as another heart doesn't hit, any flush is likely to have trouble folding.
This a 6-way limped pot in a 1/3 game. As long as another heart doesn't hit, any flush is likely to have trouble folding.
This is honestly what's so ridiculous about some responses here. Limped hand pretty much uncapped preflop ranges probably a million flushes in their ranges but no lets focus on losing the min(which means we also win the min) because 3 better combos beat us.
Just awful advice.
If you want a fun exercise, try to figure out how often you flop flush over flush(super rare) and/or how often your hand is still the stone cold nuts by the river. I'll give you a hint, it's far lower than you think it is.
I agree folding or not getting money in is bad advice, but which of these is true?
So what did you do Banana?
Ginb4ranintoastraightflushforgobsandretiredfrompoker,nowlosing-10bb/hrinroomG
Context. Read the entire thing. If you still don’t get it, I can explain it to you like you’re 5 even though you’re not.
I’ll give you a hint. Wider ranges and 6 people. Doesn’t change the fact A2s doesn’t play well mw. So again, context.
No, context is the same, but whatever. You knock posters all the time, out of context of the hand, for being hypocrites or contradicting themselves -- just remember that you do it, too.
No, context is the same, but whatever. You knock posters all the time, out of context of the hand, for being hypocrites or contradicting themselves -- just remember that you do it, too.
“Context is the same” rofl. One is a preflop theory spot one is mw 6 ways on the flop with wide ranges.
You still think they’re the same? I’m all for you exposing my hypocrisy, but first make sure you understand what you’re talking about which you clearly don’t.
Aside to answer G: A straight flush in hearts (doesn't have to reach showdown) will net you 6000$ish (both hole cards must play). A bad beat will be split 40/30/30 loser/winner/table, AAAKK beaten by 2222X or better both hole cards must play, jackpot ~80k
V5 clicks to 35 and we decide to pounce. We 3-bet flop to 185...
V1 cold calls the 185 - he does this quickly and keeps staring at us.
V2 folds grumbling
V3 folds grumbling to V2
V4 tanks for a good minute and a half, pulls back his 15$, then puts the 15$ back across the line and tries to fold but a player says thats a call so V4 says "ok fine", (preamble: I have no idea what the commit rules are at this room I don't play here enough), then puts out the original 15+four red chips+two green chips for 85 total thinking my raise was to 85 then grumbles and gets angry, house is called, and its decided he's either in for 85 and folding or calling the 185... he calls the 185.
V5 snap calls 185 after all this commotion involving house is finished.
Turn 830 (Hero - 2005$, V1 - 405$, V4 - 1005$, V5 - Covers) - T♥ 9♥ 8♥ 7♦
V5 checks....
