PAHWM: A2s goes bananas

Check
or
Pop it to 100 if you want to play poker.

I would just check.

Seems like a crowd where a) we're not gonna have problems getting the money in post flop if we hit big and b) a large raise might still got 5 handed, we're oop with a low SPR and who wants to start bluffing big vs stations.

We're flush mining because...other than trip 2s, we can't really be confident of any other 2 pair or straight hands.

but where's the fun in checking behind in a PAHWM? Raise to $110 and let's burn some $$

Limpers should be punished repeatedly, raisy daisy! (To whatever amount actually gets folds at this table)

Check. Hand plays well 6-ways and deep. Should be able to win a lot with flush over flush. Don't want to isolate against a better hand.

Just check your option. These guys didn't limp in to fold to a single raise, and any of them may be sandbagging, planning to limp-3B.

If you flop a good draw, just check-call. Don't lead out. Wait to make your hand and then go for max value.

If you flop trip 2's, lead out with an over-bet if the board is coordinated in any way. If the board is more dry you can pot it.

Automatically raising limpers with marginal hands is not good. You exploit limping by making the best play and sometimes that is checking, limping behind, or folding. Knowing OP's style and from the title, he probably raised.

Always checking. If I really wanted to get jiggy with it I would open A9s or A5s..

I don't know why everyone on this forum is in such a hurry to play hands super multiway. A2s is a perfectly fine hand to play as a bluff vs 1-2 opponents. You flop a flush draw, you can put significant pressure on them and usually win. Against 5 vs, wtf are you going to do?

As doc said, check/call your flush draws and lead if you hit a miracle like trip 2s. In other words, you're only winning the pot if you actually make your flush because you can't really start going hog wild betting your FD against 5 Vs when odds are very high that one of them hit 2P+ that isn't folding to anything. So you have an 11% chance to flop a FD and when you do, you have about a 36% chance to hit it. And about a 1% chance of flopping it outright. So we have about a 5% chance to win with a flush. Sometimes we win with A high or two pair or whatever, but really 6-ways do you feel great about flopping top pair bottom kicker? If you hit two pair with A2, do you feel great about it 6-ways? The one straight you can hit is 345. Do you feel great with the dummy end 6-ways? If the flop comes 345 and people are piling money in, the right move might be to fold. If the flop comes 522 and someone is piling money in, you aren't exactly nutted. Your equity if you flop 522 6-ways is only about 77%, if you flop the straight your equity is under 50% and if there is a non-heart FD your equity is around 43%.

So 6-ways, even when you flop nutted your equity isn't all that high and you're going to be getting stacks in with 40-45% equity a lot because are you folding when you flop the straight? Probably not. You should, but you probably won't. Are you folding when you flop the NFD, and people are piling in? You probably should because you're in really bad shape against a probable 2p.

What you're really hoping for is that you flop a FD, everyone checks around or maybe a small bet at worse. Then you turn or river the flush and suddenly your opponents are so terrible that they pay you off when there's three to a flush in a 6-way pot. Maybe you sometimes cooler then Kxhh but really even fish are going to recognize that the flush hit and that the K high flush probably isn't good with this many people. If you play a big pot, its almost always going to be because money was piling in OTF and you get sticky with your NFD. Something like a J84hh flop and you get it AI three ways vs J8 and T9 is a scenario that's about as good as you can hope for, and you have 37% equity.

Even "strong" hands and "strong draws" aren't really all that great 6-ways. You can't push them hard and if you play a big pot you probably don't have a ton of equity. If you get to heads-up or 3-ways, you have a ton more ways to win the pot. When you have the FD, you have fold equity and can push hard, winning a lot of hands without having to hit your flush. If you flop the straight or straight draw, its much more likely to be good and you can play a bigger pot. Even if you hit your A, you can play a reasonably sized pot, and if you hit two pair+ you can play for stacks in a way you can't multi-way.

The only question that matters is whether you believe that you have enough of a skill edge to play A2s without losing too much against 1-2 callers who already announced they don't have the top end of their range. Which probably is a bit cuspy but we are IP vs the player we rate the best of the field, and the only player who has us covered.

Since when does an iso at a whale-y $1/$3 mean we aren't going super multiway??

I don't think anyone is doubting that A2s is a good preflop bluffing hand, just saying that a squeeze rarely takes down the pot (or even gets head's up) in these types of fields. Making it $100 or more might work, but seems marginal and probably leads to us playing a giant pot OOP with a small SPR at a table where no one folds.

I vote for "hero checks his option" as well.

If you're "doing about 30bb/hr" in this room, why would play anywhere else? Heck, why would you even ask for HH advice here (as you're clearing destroying ~anyone posting in this forum by like a factor of ~3x). Your Bananalogic really doesn't add up up a lot of the time, imo. Anyhoo..

My 1/3 NL game literally never plays this deep and I'm obviously out of my element here, but...

I would just see a flop. SPRs will be from like 7 thru 30 and we'll be able to play for stacks against most reasonably easily if we want to. If everyone is a station then it seems like the type of table to just make a hand and attempt to get paid off postflop.

Gcluelessmathdon'taddupnoobG

Because its in a different city 5 hours away G...sheesh.. and yea obv I play there once every six months so my sample is <100 hrs.

That's why I said raise to "whatever amount actually gets folds at this table". If there is no amount that's going to get it to 1-2 Vs then obviously raising is a mistake. Only Banana can estimate that amount because it will vary wildly with the ebb and flow of the game. We're deep against several of the players, so getting 5%-7% of our stack in preflop isn't a mistake if that's enough to get the pot heads up.

You can't just assume that "no one will fold" because when you bet big they do fold a lot. If we were playing $200-$300 stacks, well yeah then a lot of players are just going to stick it in for 20-30 straddles and we don't have enough room to squeeze. But we have one short stack with $400 that is defined as an OMC - if he backjams we can fold to his AA/KK without regret. Versus every other player that might call we have a playable SPR with a chunky preflop raise and we're deep enough that it isn't likely stacks are going in pre. There is a number that they will fold and play reasonable ranges. I don't know what that number is, maybe its $75 maybe its $125 -finding that number is always one of my top priorities anytime I sit at a new table.

With stack sizes, I'd probably be willing to push the line up to about $150 max, and if I thought that wasn't enough to get it heads-up frequently, I'd check and give up these kinds of spots. I'd suggest that in most loose-passive games, 50bb is more than sufficient to get heads-up. It's definitely nicer if $75 is enough, and it actually is at many tables. With the dead money, we need to realize about 40-45% equity HU (depending on our bet size), which against loose-passives, I think we can achieve with A2s. Against a table of pros who are going to play aggressive post-flop and put us to the test - not so much.

H decides to check his option as a 40$ open here will still go 4-5 ways.

Flop 60 - T♥ 9♥ 8♥ 6-ways, 2nd to act.

V5 snap checks from SB...

Ugh. This is why I despise multi-way so much. For $150 against two Vs and a $470 pot, I'm loving this flop, and we can get stacks in a lot quite comfortably. Against 5 Vs in a $60 pot, we have about 80% equity just flopping the A high flush, and we're just asking for a bad beat story from 7xo. It will be very hard to get stacks in against anything we beat.

We have to bet; we can't let QJ76 hearts, sets, 2P, etc., all draw for free, and this is going to check through a ton. Let's bet and hope someone goes bananas with two pair, set, or QJo.

Bet out 100. There will be gazillion sets/2pairs/straights/flushes and draws out there.
If called bomb the turn + river as well.

Once in a blue moon we run into straight flushes.

We can also go for a check/raise but they might not bet this monotone board with any value hand.

I'd probably start betting large on the flop and see what happens. We only have the fourth nuts so if one of the gigantic stacks starts going crazy we'll have to re-evaluate, but otherwise let's start piling in money against the shorter calling station stacks.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Read the table description. People call off 300+BBs with TPOKK. When people are calling way too much for way too much money bluffing does not work as often. On the other hand value betting is heavily rewarded.

I check a lot OOP, but I think you have to bet here. You are too deep to risk the flop checking through, and fish absolutely love to "trap" with their strong hands. Like, there is a legitimate chance that you check the nuts here and someone checks back K6hh or whatever, trying to be tricky.

Check preflop is right, but if you are going to raise, you can make it like 80 OOP. Don't mind taking it down at all, and wouldn't mind taking it down with TT/AQ.

A person who will call off 300 bb with K8 after hitting a King on the flop isn't automatically calling with A8o for 50bb preflop. A ton of passive players will try to see a cheap flop and then get incredibly sticky if they hit anything. But if you make it expensive, they will fold pre.

If Banana made it $150 pre, do you really believe he would have more than two callers? I don't believe that is true. If it is, its the easiest NLHE game to win. Just go into OMC mode. I do believe if he made it $40, it would go 4-5 ways as he said. The real number to get it 2-3 ways is probably $75-$125. And that's something that you just have to feel at the table because it will change as the night goes on.

In this hand, it's the difference between having 80% equity in a $60 pot with terrible reverse implied odds and having 95% equity in a $300 pot HU or 90% equity in a $450+ pot three ways where we can very comfortably just get the rest in and expect worse to be roped in often enough.

I was going to recommend check pre because they are never folding given your image and you don't want to bloat the pot with this hand.

Great flop. Bet $30 - $45? Whatever they will call/raise w/ worse flushes, Kh, straights, two pair, etc.

Check or bet small. It's not impossible for someone to have a worse flush that wants to bet or straight flush that is just waiting to raise. Leading out for a large size is too face up.

I think it's fine to check and see what deveops. We have the 4th nuts. We can play it like a bluff catcher on early streets, and go for value on later streets, depending on the run out and action.

If we bet, I wouldn't bet more than $10. We can keep betting small until we get raised. When we limp in the straddle we could credibly have J7hh or 76hh, but any of our opponents could also have those hands, as well as QJhh.

It's hard to go for max value when we're multi-way and OOP. If any of our opponents start shoveling money in, I'd be leery of going broke with the 4th nuts in a limped pot.