Whats our plan vs maniac/whale?

We block diamonds, sometimes we lose to bluffs. This is the wrong hand to hero.

I wouldn’t bet turn against the guy who wants to station us.

Why would I make a tough call with Ace-high when there are going to be so many easier spots against this dude?

So what if he bluffed you out? Let him have a couple every now and then. If he's even within an order of magnitude of telling the truth about losing $30K, you want to be this guy's bestie.

This is nit-picking, but it's an OCD thing for me...whales and maniacs aren't the same thing. It's important to differentiate, not just in the terms we use, but by noticing how they're different.

Whales = the ultimate loose-passive fish. They call way too wide, but don't show much aggression.

Maniacs = the ultimate LAGs. They're constantly betting and raising light.

This guy sounds like he's loose-passive and occasionally clicking buttons. He's not showing down insane bluffs with total air. He's just over-playing marginal hands.

When it comes to both whales and maniacs, and guys with similar tendencies, my general strat is to play a more value-heavy game with fewer bluffs. So...

PRE - As much as I hate open-limping, I'd probably just open limp AJs from EP, expecting someone else to raise, and expecting V to call too wide in the SB, opening the door for us to put in a back-raise to squeeze the original raiser out and get this HU and IP against V.

FLOP - With two overs, the NFD, and the BDSD, I probably wouldn't bet. I'd just check back.

My reasoning is that V is going to get to the flop with such a wide range that he could easily connect with this board. If he likes to station, he's not folding a T or 9 to our c-bet, and probably not if we barrel on a brick.

But if we make our hand on the turn, he's still not folding, even to a big bet, so I'd prefer to pick up some equity before I start betting into someone we know is super-sticky.

TURN - Against most opponents, I'd want to over-bet when they just flat call the flop on a very wet and dynamic board, capping themselves at 1P. But against a whale, I wouldn't bet, I'd just check back, knowing he's not folding, and we're just torching.

We can still make our hand on the river, or make a decent TP that can bluff-catch. Even if the river is a brick, our hand has just enough SDV to bluff-catch if V bets small (though mostly I'd just fold if he leads the river on a brick).

RIVER - As played, this is a very trivial fold. He's going to have a ton of TX here, and even if he's turning something into a bluff, he could be bluffing with a better hand. He could be over-valuing 9x, or 6x. We even lose to some better AX that has to bluff.

Well I initially thought the term whales = passive, maniac = aggro then banana/omahadonk say it's not. They say whales can be aggro as well, lol. I initially labelled him as a maniac, then relabelled him as both since they were arguing to me he is just a whale.
Villain isn't as passive you think. He loves taking the initiative(ie. opening every hand, cbetting/barrelling high frequency etc.). He even 3bets/squeezes light but not so much vs hero because we have a tight range. He rarely 4bets if ever because his range is so trash.
He shows insane bluffs all the time, yet he also "thin" value/bluff that makes no sense.
Once he's in the pot, especially headsup, he has 0 fold button vs small bets. He has some fold button in multiway but unless for huge sizings.
His play style is very erratic.
Normally I don't bluff him at least never pure bluff, only semi bluffs on flop/turn.

IMO "whale" means "big donator", which doesn't say much about their play style but generally they're going to be overly aggro because it's hard to frequently build oversized pots that one loses without raising unnecesarily. I guess "whale" has different implications at a tough table, like just being very loose-passive in a high stakes game probably makes one a whale.

Maybe they were just arguing over the label YOU gave your opponent, not necessarily arguing over what the labels mean.

Words have meanings. Different words, different meanings. If they meant the same thing, we wouldn't need two terms for the same type of player.

We use the term "fish" to describe recs who are loose-passive. What else would / could a whale be but a really big fish, even more loose, and more passive than the standard loose-passive rec-fish? Whales want to have a good time.

We use the term "LAG" to describe someone who is loose-aggressive. What else would / could a maniac be, but the ultimate LAG, constantly betting and raising with a really wide range? Maniacs want to cause pain.

Solely based on the few hand histories you gave us in your OP, I don't think it was enough to label him either a whale or a maniac. If you've seen other actions from him which would lead you to believe he's truly a maniac, you gave us the wrong hand histories.

Honestly, in the future, I'd probably just skip the hand histories and tell us he's a maniac, if that's your read. The hand histories you give are just going to muddy the water and lead people to argue about what his tendencies are, and how we should label him.

What you've described is someone who is loose, but not overly passive, nor overly aggro. He goes back and forth, occasionally playing passively, and occasionally stepping up his aggression, often in spots that don't make a lot of sense. Basically, he's "button-clicking".

Your guy sounds like he's not worried about the money he loses playing. That could certainly make him play loose and splashy. But by itself, it doesn't make him a whale or a maniac.

He just plays too many hands on early streets, which leads to him doing things on later streets that don't seem to make sense.

I wouldn't bluff him, hardly at all. I probably wouldn't even semi-bluff. If he's splashy-loose, and capable of betting too thin or bluffing wildly on later streets, it doesn't make sense to try to make him fold. He's not folding when he has a hand, but he might over-value it, or bluff.

Think about it - you WANT him to bluff. You WANT him to bet too thin. You WANT him to call down too wide. You NEVER want to try and make him fold. Trying to bluff this guy is just torching.

We can get max value from him whenever we have a hand. We lose max value whenever we try to bluff him and he has a hand.

If you want to maximize value against him, take note of how often he stabs at the pot when action checks to him, or when the prior street checks through.

If he loves to stab, check to him or check back a lot. If he chases all his draws, go huge with your value on draw-heavy boards, then slow down and over-fold when the obvious draws get there.

Just out-play him.

Sorry to be blunt, but many people here have been using these terms incorrectly. They are not synonymous. They refer to distinctly different playing styles.

https://www.americascardroom.eu/how-to/p...

In poker, a “Whale” refers to a player who is willing to gamble large amounts of money, often without having a strong understanding of the game. They are typically targeted by more experienced players due to their loose playing style and tendency to make significant financial losses.

“Fish” is a more general term often used for players who are not skilled, although “whale” specifically implies a player with a large bankroll.

https://upswingpoker.com/glossary/whale/

A whale is a player who plays a lot of big pots often with marginal holdings. Whales typically love to gamble and play big pots!

https://pokercoaching.com/blog/poker-ter...

The term whale is used to describe a player who has very little poker knowledge but has a big bankroll and likes action.

A poker whale is a step beyond fish. These players’ skills are usually quite low, while their desire to play the game and be in the mix is very high.

https://www.pokernews.com/pokerterms/man...

A 'Maniac' in poker refers to a player who plays extremely aggressively, often betting and raising with a wide range of hands.

In poker, a 'Maniac' is a player who plays with an extremely aggressive style. They frequently bet and raise, often with a wide range of hands, regardless of the strength of their actual hand. While this strategy can be unpredictable and intimidating, it can also lead to high-risk situations.

https://www.pokerlistings.com/poker-term...

In the world of poker, a “Maniac” refers to a player who adopts an extremely aggressive playing style. They are characterized by their tendency to frequently bet and raise, often with a wide range of hands, irrespective of the strength of their actual cards. This aggressive approach can make them unpredictable and intimidating opponents at the poker table.

https://www.888poker.com/magazine/poker-...

Maniacs love to pile on the aggression. They play an extremely wide range of starting hands (more than a LAG) and love to make big bluffs on the later streets.

https://www.pokerstrategy.com/glossary/M...

A maniac in poker is a player who bets and raises frequently, often with a large bet sizing, even when holding weak or marginal hands. A maniac can be described as an extremely loose-aggressive player who has a losing poker strategy.

https://upswingpoker.com/glossary/maniac...

A maniac is an extremely loose and aggressive player that bets and raises even when ill-advised. “Tom is a maniac, he’s raised 15 hands in a row.”

Lol.

Exactly.

Not calling river. I don't like betting the turn. Flop is ok.

There were more hand histories if you click on the link, like 2 more threads vs this villain.

He's overly aggro to the whole table. Maybe less aggro vs us since he is aware we have a tight range(he has said in game he was scared of us when in hand multiway).
He's basically a maniac with little to no fold button.

It's easier said than done.
By the time we arrive on river even with a strong range, most often than not, river will come a scare card. He might try to rep it 100% of the time since his range is super wide. Pot by river be massive.
Sure we were ahead on flop+turns alot, then by river, a scare card comes, you never know if it really hits his hand or not.

We also lose every small pot when we miss vs him. It adds up alot. Bluff catching is also hard especially on flops because he will fire multi barrels often. Once the pot becomes bloated, you'll hate life even with tp.

Brother, I'm not going back through multiple threads, trying to figure out if you know how to label your opponents correctly. If you think he's a maniac, fine, just say that and give us the hand history. No need to give us the guy's full background story.

It actually is very easy to out-play an opponent like this. Stop trying to bluff him, at least not with normal sizing. Play a value heavy game, and push your equity advantages. Let him blast off if he wants. Why would you ever want to get into a shooting match with him?

You can't "miss" when you're not constantly semi-bluffing. The pots are only massive because you keep putting money in without a hand, trying to make him fold. But your sizing doesn't scare him.

If you're just going to fold when this guy blasts, what does that tell you about your range, and how you're playing it?

You're playing $300 deep and using GTO bet sizing with a guy who doesn't give a $hlt about the stakes.

How big would this pot have been if you didn't raise pre, didn't c-bet the flop, and didn't barrel the turn? You can play ten hands like this one, if you just stop trying to make him fold, and instead bloat the pot when you actually have a hand.

Or, alternatively, make him play for all the money when you have a ton of equity. Is he calling turn with K7cc if you 2x pot it? Is he jamming river? I doubt it. Pot it on the flop, and 2.5x jam turn. Don't give him a chance to see the river, or do something scary.

Imagine if you limped pre, and then just checked or called flop and turn. He's going to bomb the river? Okay, let him have it when you have nothing. Just call when you have a hand. He'll stop firing into you when you show him that you're not going to fire back, you're just going to let him punt.

He's not scared of your bets? Okay, the only solution is to make him terrified when you call, or even better, when you raise. The only way to do that is to over-fold, not bluff, and go for max value when you have it. If he starts folding to your value bets, THEN you can start bluffing him.

If you keep raising pre, betting flop, barreling turn, and folding to his river donks, he's just going to continue owning you.

Good stuff.
Never thought about potting flop, 2.5x turns.
This might be best with value with him.
Appreciate all your posts, thank you for your help/advices.

I like that

Pot the Flop with semi-bluff.
If called, check-back turn (FreeCard)

Some of it depends on v’s reaction to the flop bet. If he looks pained to call, pot the turn and apply pressure. Bets need to be meaningful heads up.

But the FreeCard allows you to arrive on the river with less risk and a little mystery. He’s not sure what you’re up to and may respond honestly only betting with a hand.

I learned that triangle thing from Fitzgerald.

I stick to
loose passive
loose aggressive
tight passive
tight aggressive
labels

Also important to know if that behavior changes across the streets. A fake maniac playing crazy loose pre, then turns tag post can fool you.

I don’t really try to label the really crazy ones. Usually the behavior is impossible to forget - calling significant wagers blind, opening $50 blind, tilting thru buyins quickly, opening every hand, chasing every draw, etc.

To me the term, "whale" implies high stakes and gambling for lots of money. A whale is the type of player that the casino comps a private jet to just to get them to their property, knowing they're liable to blow 7 figures in the pits.

A big donator in a 50/100 NL game is a whale. The same type of player in a 1/3 game is just a fish, IMO.

turn bet is pretty bad. what are you trying to do exactly?

I'd prefer a large bet on the flop (and probably gii if check-raised). Wouldn't hate a check either. Not a fan of the half pot bet.

Turn brings in 87, so much as I want to barrel here (probably jam) it's probably more prudent to check back? Particularly as this guy won't fold any Tx, correct?

As played, fold river. As OmahaDonk says, you block loads of his bluffs, albeit from the HH this guy can seemingly bluff (or, more accurately, bet) with anything.