GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Some do, but in the debate for #1 he is often not even mentioned. Way up the track to Jordan and LeBron supposedly. If you factor in that college career, he moves way up the ranking, meaning, he can't be ignored by a 2-man debate. In fact the greatness there was so revolutionary that it would be bizarre to relegate him like that. With his 3 years of domination in college, that's 23 seasons ala LeBron.
So for the 2020's so far, Jokic is the total leader in....
Points
Rebounds
Assists
Steals
He's basically having the greatest individual decade ever surely.
Be interesting to see how Chamberlain compares by that metric. And of course you have to add in 5000 blocks and 50,000 shots altered or disallowed for Wilt. Joker ain't doing that. Jokic's bid is terrific but seems it just can't compare defensively to Jordan or Chamberlain, or Olajuwon.
Hell, I didn't even think about him being the Antichrist. Good point. You know they called him the "Black Jesus," and that could have been cover for the truth. That's the way that religious stuff works.
Jokic is top 3 all time. I have zero care for any rings argument. Peak for peak and longevity hes in the upper echelon. Best player ive ever watched live as far as im concerned.
16 games into the season Jokic is having by far the best modern season?
I'm taking Iverson still for that category among post 1995 players.
"...so it's great horse...it's a lot of money he knows it's a lot of money...oh behind the back open ha...fine pay him. Pay that man his money! That was a good...get this and ok dribble it...Matt damon...Bourne. Jason Bourne...and ok I'll shoot this. put that horse on the big ranch. lot of space... Grazing... and little hook. Hooked em. Ha. Nice."
I've mathematically solved Lebron's game:
It's statistical fact that Lebron's skillset increases everyone's assisted buckets/spot-up role, which craters their assists and causes low assist teams over time - this is all statistical fact... We can confirm that this is a flaw because every series loss of Lebron's playoff career shows deficits in team assists... Since Lebron's assist-lowering effect is the catalyst in every loss, the team must literally overcome this affliction to win (have more assists than the other team) - the TEAM must overcome Lebron's weakness to win.
Taking this a step further, if team assists is a proxy for teamwork, then Lebron essentially needs better teamwork than the opponent to win a playoff series - aka he can't carry the load and win with less teamwork - he needs his team.. Otoh, MJ carried the load and won with less teamwork/team assists all the time, while also winning with less scoring help (carrying the scoring load, aka defeating max defensive attention)...
Reaves with only 22 pts tonight vs bottom dweller....
No more 40 and 50 point games now that LeCancer is back . Lebron quickly turns Reaves from ALL-NBA caliber to maybe missing the all-star game
And Luka goes from being in the MVP conversation to not.... Lebron will single-handedly reduce Luka from MVP caliber play, and stop Luka from ever winning MVP
The reason why Lebron must keep playing is because he hasn't lapped the field like MJ did by 1993.. Everyone feasted on Lebron's watch during his prime and when he had all-star teammates or preseason favorites...
Specifically, Lebron is 17-36 in the playoffs against the Spurs, Warriors and Nuggets.. He also never beat and was upset by three 1-star teams (Mavs, Magic, TWolves).. He was also locked up and melted down against the 08' and 10' Celtics, respectively.
That's a PATHETIC record and that's why LeOld is still hanging on.
Otoh, you're knocking MJ for not lapping the field more times... It makes no difference because he would have 2-3 more chips if he hadn't played baseball or retired in 98', and therefore be considered goat even more than he already is.. A four-peat sounds better than a three-peat and MJ would've had the best cast he ever had in 94'.
Lebron is washed NOW, so what's the difference?
When he averages 15 ppg this year and has a POSITIVE plus-minus, this will prove that his higher stats last year with a NEGATIVE plus-minus was stat-padding.. Anyone can stat-pad so that the team loses with you on the floor (negative plus-minus).
Ultimately, MJ's 20 ppg at 40 while meeting team expectation (and positive plus-minus) is far superior than 24 ppg in today's easy scoring format, while NOT meeting expectation (upset loss in 1st Rd) and being a big negative.
Karl Malone played in the same era as Jordan. He didn't need years off and played more minutes than any player after him except LeBron.
The next active player on the all time minutes list is Paul at 21st.
Playing at a lower level for longer (longevity) means nothing
It's playing at the highest level that makes someone goat.
For example, Lebron's MVP caliber is weak compared to MJ because half of Lebron's MVP's lack titles, and none had scoring titles or DPOY.. Otoh, all of MJ's MVP's had titles and scoring titles, except one that had DPOY.
You can do this with every aspect of their careers and see that MJ played on a higher level - i.e. no matter who we put around Lebron, he can't 3-peat, win 70 or have a dynasty, aka objectively inferior to MJ
Jerry West made a good point about Jordan, saying he was the best offensive and best defensive player in the league ... and that was something unheard of in the league. Going along with that line of thinking, I went to Chamberlain. He was the best offensive player in the league. He was arguably, along with Russell, the best defensive player in the league.He was also the best re
Career playoffs
WILT...... 22.5 ppg
MJ.......... 33.5 ppg
Wilt's scoring cratered in the playoffs, so Wilt wasn't the best offensive player in the playoffs, thus failing West's criteria that you specified above..
That being said the entire league was stacked against him ,- designed to beat 1 man - yet he still upset the 8x champ goat team and peaked at 50/25 and 10 blocks.. so he's in my top 10
Is he averaging 40-50 like MJ would today?
Who cares about triple-doubles - they're completely meaningless and that style seldom wins titles
The reality is that Aaron Gordon would be all-defense alongside Jordan, since Gordon has the endless athletic ability that Jordan would galvanize to play hard like he did with Pippen... Gordon's great clutch, defense and scoring would be enough for Jordan to win with, especially with other studs like Jamal Murray and Porter Jr.. That's overkill.
Unfortunately, Jokic is really slow and it permeates the team defensively.. It also hurts them offensively too - he simply doesn't wear down defenses enough (thus leaving them less capacity for offense) - he doesn't put pressure on teams on either end like Michael
It's interesting. In my lifetime there was a period where Jordan was clearly the best player. Then a mixed period of Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Kobe, Nowitzki etc. Then a period where LeBron was clearly the best player. Then a mixed period of James. Durant, Curry, Giannis, Harden, etc. And now Jokic has been the clear best for an extended period. If anybody is the 4th
Lebron was MVP for a tiny window of 5 years (09-13'), while MJ won MVP's throughout a 10 year period (88-98'), so MJ has the goat longevity of MVP caliber play..
Btw, no one respects Lebron's Eastern run in 07' due to the comp, which is why everyone was winning the East with 1-star teams at that time.. And the 07' Spurs showed that a 22 on 35% player won the East (and 6 TO's per game).
Lebron himself said Kobe was better around 05-08', so Lebron's window was very small, since Curry was the best player in 15' and 16
Furthermore, winning titles or 70 games with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player and guys like Klay, Wiggins or Poole is far more impressive than Lebron needing franchise players at 2nd and 3rd option (super-teams) - and barely winning 50 games... This makes Curry far superior to Lebron because he can win with far less... He would easily win the title with Luka and never miss the play-in with Westbrook.. And he would have dynasties with Lebron's "big 3's
fallguy,
look up USG%, it might explain why reaves goes for 40+ when Luka and LeBron are both out.
Why not IT ?
He came close to a 3 peat vs dynasties and goat players .
IT was overrated by Jordan homers as it made him look better.
He was a good point guard.
IT was barely better than Dumars. No All NBAs from 88 to 92 when his team was good. One top 7 MVP finish in his career (a 5th finish).
He's basically Lillard but not as good at scoring.
IT was overrated by Jordan homers as it made him look better.
He was a good point guard.
IT was barely better than Dumars. No All NBAs from 88 to 92 when his team was good. One top 7 MVP finish in his career (a 5th finish).
He's basically Lillard but not as good at scoring.
During an era with magic, bird, mj, Kareem, Malone (Moses) , etc.
Yeah no wonder accolades was hard to come by for a 6 feet tall guy .
John Stockton was a regular All-NBA guy during that time. Kevin Johnson & Mark Price also made it.
IT was a good guard. But one of many. His legend grew because he kept destroying MJ in the playoffs with an okay team. Then the MJ slurpers made him seem better than he was to make MJ look good. Otherwise they'd have to accept MJ getting beaten by an okay team.
Fortunately Detroit got old, MJ got a loaded team, Magic got Aids, Bird broke his back, league cheated for the Bulls, league got diluted with 2 separate expansions etc etc so the golden child could win.
90s really was the weakest of all time basketball.
I do remember being mesmerized at the time by his handles. This was all before the streetball mix tapes. Not saying he was any better than you are saying. I have him far below Magic, obviously. Below Stockton who played longer and probably more efficiently. In my mind he is next for the era. but idk.
John Stockton was a regular All-NBA guy during that time. Kevin Johnson & Mark Price also made it.IT was a good guard. But one of many. His legend grew because he kept destroying MJ in the playoffs with an okay team. Then the MJ slurpers made him seem better than he was to make MJ look good. Otherwise they'd have to accept MJ getting beaten by an okay team.Fortunately Detroit g
Yeah , averaging 29 years for a core is so old as fack ….
Mark price did great after IT was mostly done .
Stockton , yes an all time great , wonder how IT would of done with the 3rd greatest scorer ever in the nba too ….
Strange Rodman got younger 6 years later .
IT got twice mvp in all stars game , I know it’s not kinda like a good talking point about career and all but it at least should demonstrate he was incredibly talented …
Anyway I won’t die on the hill for IT .
