Are we supposed to go crazy?

without looking at V descriptions - kind of marginal. probably calling flop for 1/3rd PSB.

I think we can x/r here. We're almost always good but our hand is vulnerable and there are only one good turn in the deck. Every turn completes a straight or is an over.

With only 60bb it can't be terrible to gii. A lot of draws might call us, we deny equity to overs and we have a sliver of equity against the nuts. OTT we are lost. Calling and knowing every turn weakens our hand isn't good.

Folding seems nitty when we make an over pair. And V2 probably doesn't have anything too strong because 2p+ is highly incentivized to raise. V1 might have flopped huge, but we are easily against two draws, and maybe draws that are stepping on each other.

Therefore, I vote bet, and since we're thrilled to not see a turn, maximize FE with a jam.

I'd fold and not feel bad at all about it.

Otherwise, what on Earth is our plan on the turn? If hoping it checks down is our best path forward I want no part of that.

Sorry guys there was a typo

Flop is actually 2♣3♣4♥

Check raise to 60, sigh call it off. Planning on jamming most turns.

Alternatively can crai, makes life easier but probably lower EV. One side effect is they might fold better or a lot of equity.

Don't think that changes much, except now we are a bit happier to see a non-club 7 ott. But given V1s history, he is snapping us off with any Ax regardless of suits, hands like pair+straight draw, any flush draw and maybe even two random overs with one club. If we raise to $60, that's only $45 to call in a pot that is already $136 for V1 and better for V2, then both Vs should be calling with everything except complete air.

We jam, that's $170 they have to call into $246, V1 should require 41% equity and I think he gets it in lighter than that often enough. Hands like A4/A3/75/Q5 we know he has them and he's probably calling. V2 is a bit more questionable, but she's shown she has a fold button, when its both us and V1 all-in, maybe we see 99 fold, or Ax one club type hands. I don't think she's ever nutted with a straight after the flat. So we're only dead if V1 flopped a straight and you just have to pay maniacs off when they flop the nuts. It's ok, that money will be back in the pot next hand.

Calling just seems miserable as almost every card could leave us drawing almost dead and we have no way of knowing if that T just gave V1 a pair and now we're calling off way behind and we still have to call it off because we know V1 would be jamming with 72. I guess we save a few bucks if the flush comes in OTT, but V1 is probably repping the flush more than he actually has it, so we're just opening ourselves up to be bluffed from any scary card and any card is scary.

I think its jam or fold. And for 60ish bb, I'm opting for the more aggressive action. If we were 400bb deep here, then yeah I'm going to nit up and maybe fold because the hand is going to be ugly to play OTT whether it is good or not and maniac is going to keep the pressure on often.

And yeah, I think this hand is much easier if we squeeze preflop. Vs maniac, we're ok calling off with 88 against his 4! jam. And if we get a call pre, on this flop we just open jam. Probably the same result, but it feels easier.

A5 wheels seem more likely than A2 wheels, in today's game. Albeit people are supposed to raise those. Which the maniac might've done, tbf.

Think yami's got the right of it. Squeeze before and jam now.

The pre flop call seems fine to me. We're not just playing to set mine. We can navigate post flop as well when we don't make a set. A 3-bet would be pretty awkward given the open size and effective stack sizes. Like what would we make it to go? If you make it like 60 that's almost 1/3 of your effective stack and you're going to be outplayed or getting it in bad a lot if they call and one or more overcards come on the flop. Jamming pre could be marginally profitable but you're not going to be in great shape when called. So all things considered I like the call.

On the flop you're probably short enough to just raise/get it in. I do think a 234 flop is significantly different than the original flop you posted, because it increases the likelihood of both players having more Ax combos that you're ahead of. In a 1/3 game given the straight draw to the five a hand like AJ is more likely to Cbet and also similar hands are more likely to call the cbet. So I probably raise flop.

I likely go with a non all-in sizing to allow for some raise/fold bluffs as well, probably like 60 then jam most turns other than a club, five or ace. Something like a non-club six I probably check call. I could possibly be convinced that our hand plays better as a jam but I do like the possibility of having some low-equity bluffs in our range that can raise-fold.

I think you can also just call flop and navigate various turns though. That would be my default if we were deeper. You're only facing a 1/3 PSB and even if we end up folding a lot on later streets we'll get to showdown and be good often enough. Sometimes turn will check through and we can make a small value bet on the river, etc.

All things considered I probably call pre, raise flop, jam most turns given the relatively short effective stacks.

Grunch:

PRE - Flatting with 88 in the BB seems fine, generally.

If we think V1 is a maniac, it's important to differentiate between the maniac who opens super-wide but will fold to a 3B and the maniac who opens super-wide and will 4B light.

We want to 3B the former, not the latter. It would suck to 3B and get 4B.

FLOP - Over-calling with 88 is probably fine, but I think a check-raise here would be sexy AF.

Reasoning - he's probably raising way too many hands pre, and c-betting too many hands post. She probably doesn't have a nutted hand when she flats. She's more likely on a draw or has some sort of SDV that is too strong to fold but not strong enough to raise. Meanwhile, since we decided to flat pre in the BB, our range is basically any two cards, and this flop smashes that range.

We could have all the straights, all the sets, all the 2P, the NFD, a huge combo draw, a pair + a draw, etc.

It sucks that we're not deeper. If we started out $500 deep, we could make it $90 to $150 here, and have enough left over to bomb the turn on a brick.

I kind of want to just jam all in and dare someone to bluff-catch us with whatever. It's not like we have a hand that has much chance of improving. Just the opposite, there are very few run-outs that won't downgrade out hand.

Wow. If it were deeper, putting in a check/raise wouldn't even cross my mind. Because we are chopping with Ax/fd at best, we are behind overpairs, sets, st8s, two pairs.

Not sure if villain 4bet light but calling 3bets super light for stack for sure.

Pot 46
So Flop is actually 2♣3♣4♥
V1 cbets 15
V2 calls
Before the flop came, we were saying to ourselves since we didn't squeeze vs the maniac, we gonna stick it in on any good flop.
But when the flop actually came, Hero was split between x/r and calling. Then the nitty side of me took over, scared of losing against Ax, overpairs, sets, st8s, 2pairs, fd or whatever.

We decided to call after some inner struggle.

Pot 91
Turn 7♥
Hero checks
V1 checks
V2 bets 40???
Hero???

I'm not loving the situation after you overcall flop, then she still bets turn. Sizing also looks pretty value-ish. I probably just call at that point. Given the price you're getting you don't have to win all that often to still have a profitable call.

You might induce the maniac to jam with something dumb like Ax, which would be a good result. If it goes maniac raise, V2 fold I'm happy to call off. If maniac jams AND V2 calls at that point I would fold. Or often maniac just folds and you play a river.

On river I'm mainly hoping it goes check check, which will happen a fair amount and we're usually good in that case. If the front door draws miss and she jams you probably have to call off if you do take that line.

Stop playing based on your hand and start playing based on their range.

Suppose one or the other of them does have an over-pair. So what? We flatted from the BB. Our range is almost any two cards. We have all the straights, sets, and 2P here. They might have some, occasionally, but for the most part they'll have a range that consists of air, draws, and 1P.

How comfortable would you be, in their position, with an overpair, if you c-bet this flop and got check-raised by the BB? I'd absolutely hate it.

If V calls 3B's light, then....what's the next question to ask? Does he over-fold if we c-bet after 3B'ing? Is he FOF post? Does he blast off if we check to him? In other words, can we out-play this guy, even when we're OOP, if we 3B pre?

You're saying he calls 3B's light. That means he gets to the flop with too wide / weak a range. Is that a range we can make fold if we c-bet and barrel, or is he not just maniacal, but also sticky? Can we check to him when we smash the flop and expect him to make a huge mistake by bluffing?

Against a maniac open and a caller who is likely 3betting better hands than ours (i.e. be very careful versus passive players who can flat monsters), plus sitting on a short effective stack, I think I prefer a squeeze preflop. Could probably shove and still get action from the maniac if he's maniacal enough. Otherwise I'd 3bet to a sizing that sets up a PSB shove for the flop, so like $65. Although i don't hate a flat with relatively little dead money in the pot (but the more callers producing big dead money relative to stacks the more I would lean to 3betting here).

Think I'd probably just check/jam this flop. We're going to hate pretty much every turn card and can easily get called by worse, and meanwhile are protecting our hand in a big pot.

ETA (Turn): This is one of the reasons I don't like flatting the flop in that we pretty much hate every turn card (especially if anyone feels comfortable betting it). But we're also going to hate most river cards too. I would have made a commitment plan earlier in the hand, but I still feel fairly committed here and would (uncomfortably) jam.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Other than the 8s this is the best turn in the deck for our hand. I only saw two hand histories from V2, but one of them she had a weird donk OTT then folded to aggression, and the other she jammed SDV on the flop. So I wouldn't put a lot of strength behind this sizing, it's easily a monkey stab after V1 shows weakness and maybe our call is interpreted as weak too.

If V2 had a straight, 2p or over pair, is she betting this small into a board that's wetter than the Everglades? I could see a reg doing this hoping that somebody spaz jams over them, but as described I think we can discount nutted hands from her range.

I'd expect to see a lot of pair+SD type of hands. Middling value with some kind of draw. Ax with pair and or draw.

V1 HHs show pretty consistent pushing very hard with any pair. His slow down would concern me on a dry board. But as it is he has a lot of total air.

AP: I can get behind either a flat or a jam. If we flat, we are flatting with the hope that V1 turns into his spazzy self and jams. And we are probably calling that jam even if V2 calls. But when I call, I'm watching V2 very close trying to pick up any reaction. If she seems to really love the jam, then we can let it go. If we see any honest hesitancy, then we're calling. Because while I believe she is probably on some kind of draw or weak pair, she is still the player I think that is most likely to beat us.

If we flat and see river, we really want it to check around. We are pure bluff catching on any river And obviously we're more than willing to catch V1s punts than V2.

Me being me, I'm just getting it in. With this turn, I think we're still ahead often enough.

I prefer a squeeze preflop. Early position raise I know, but you want to play and you don't want to go multiway OOP with shallow stacks. If V1 jams then decide what to do based on how maniacal they are but I could see just going with it against a real maniac for 70BB sometimes.

After all this passivity flop you can come down hard with a CR and I'm also in the camp of going with the hand but I'm not sure whether CRAI is better than a normal size.

Turn is ugly - you probably didn't even realise V2 was still in the hand - but with an overpaid and a double flush draw on board I think we can still go with it. Don't want to call and then face a river jam - there aren't really any blanks anyway apart from some disconnected overcards something like an offshore 9. So as played probably rip it now but regretting being so passive earlier. Wouldn't hate a turn fold either tbh

I would have been happy to CRAI on the flop.

On the turn, I like it a little less, because the SPR is less, we're losing to another hand that we were beating (77), and now we have more bluffs in range. I don't know how much fold equity we have now, but it seems like we probably have less, and our hand has to be best if we get called.

I still might jam. I think V1 is probably folding, and V2 is going to have a hard time calling with just 1P or 1P + a draw, if she's nitty or scared money.

Alternatively, I suppose we could flat and decide what we want to do on the river. Maybe we block bet on a brick. There just aren't many brick rivers. Every card is going to complete a draw, pair the board, or change top pair. I guess if we don't spike an off-suit 8 we're hoping for a board-pairing 2 or 3.

I kind of hate calling and checking again on the river. I suppose we could check-call a small bet or check-fold to a big bet.

V1 has 45 or maybe 66, V2 has Xc7c, so giit

I didn't read the links in the OP but it is fair to say that V1 is a genuine maniac, so you definitely missed out preflop and flop. I was a little worried that an EP raise might have meant something reasonable, but having read the link in the OP it's pretty clear that's not the case!

If V2 had folded to the donk shove, would you have called?

I would against a maniac like this.

Concur. Both FD's bricked, we didn't see 4 to a straight-->bluff city from most maniacs. Size is ridiculously low to expect FE, but bad maniacs do that s#*÷.

Jeez though, squeeze pre, and jam at some point before the river.

This is typically my way of thinking as well. When stacks are shallow and the dead money in the pot is a decent percentage of them, then the risk (our stack) of going after the reward (decent dead money) is worth leaning towards aggro. But as stacks get deeper, and the dead money is worth very little with regards to stacks behind, then I think it is ok to lean to more passive as the risk (huge stacks behind) isn't worth the reward (very little relative dead money).

Having said that, I think this particular preflop is pretty close / whatever. Would be a slam dunk 3bet with many callers, but with just one caller I think it is ~ok flatting or reraising. IMO.

GcluelessNLnoobG