GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Conclusions
1) The 2011 Finals is the only series loss in history that was blamed exclusively on 1 player
2) No star ever scored 0 points in clutch-time for a series, except Lebron in the 11' Finals (stats
)
3) No top 10 candidate ever underperformed that drastically in a big series during their prime
When people talk about the biggest chokes ever, the 2011 Finals is viewed as the biggest choke in SPORTS history, not just basketball history.
It likely isn't even in the top 75 LOL.
If youre narrowing it to "NBA finals featuring LeBron or Jordan" then you *might* have an argument. But all of sports? Insane
There was no choke in 2004. In 2011, Carlisle > Spo was the biggest factor. Neither Kobe nor Bron played well overall in those series, but neither is 1/10 the upset Indy winning this year would’ve been.
Lakers were huge favorites vs the Pistons in 2004 so it was viewed as a huge chokejob.
The line—in hindsight —was lol. Mailman’s injury was hugely undervalued by the public/MSM and even if healthy they were maybe -140 at best It’s like saying Ali’s wins v Liston & Foreman were huge chokejobs.
2011 definitely small upset/mild choke but LMAO at being in the same universe as like these past two PSU games.
There was no choke in 2004. In 2011, Carlisle > Spo was the biggest factor. Neither Kobe nor Bron played well overall in those series, but neither is 1/10 the upset Indy winning this year would've been.
Kobe was plainly horrible
All Kobe had to do was let Shaq be Shaq and they win in 6. But he wanted to be the hero.
Now watch FG come in and say it was Shaq's team even though Kobe took 4 more shots a game in the regular season and 7 more shots a game in the playoffs.
All this talk about choking.
Pretty much everyone chokes. Most great teams lose at first before they get over the hump.
MJ and the Bulls lost over & over to the Pistons until they finally won.
Lebron lost to the Celtics and really had to join a super team to finally win.
Those same Pistons lost to t he Celtics and Larry Bird until they got over the hump.
If say Cooper Flagg and the Mavericks become an elite team, I promise Cooper will have
some dissapointments and will choke to some degree in key moments.
People don't come out of child birth as clutch and super tough. Becoming mentally tough
happens over time, and usually as a result of facing adversity.
I don't care if Lebron choked in a finals. He evolved from that and became imop a very good
clutch player, and I would trust him in any situation today (except his age will factor in at some point)
But having said that, if you bananas are still debating MJ vs Lebron, its still MJ.
Again in MJ's prime he won Defensive player of the year while leading the league in steals. While
also averaging 35 and winning the scoring title. MJ is the only player to ever be the best offensive
and defensive player at the same time. At his height too, thats like almost impossible.
There was no choke in 2004. In 2011, Carlisle > Spo was the biggest factor. Neither Kobe nor Bron played well overall in those series, but neither is 1/10 the upset Indy winning this year would've been.
Lebron averaging 17.8 ppg is the reason for the upset loss
No other factor comes close or matters.
Red Aurbach couldn't coach the Heat to a win with the best player choking at that level and disappearing in the 4th - essentially SABATOGING the team - it's impossible for anyone to win with the team carrier underperforming to that magnitude
All Kobe had to do was let Shaq be Shaq and they win in 6. But he wanted to be the hero.
Now watch FG come in and say it was Shaq's team even though Kobe took 4 more shots a game in the regular season and 7 more shots a game in the playoffs.
Shaq had fallen off massively from his great season in 2000... Otherwise, Kobe was already leading the Lakers in scoring for the 01' and 02' Western Playoffs, so Shaq had fallen off massively by 04'.. But he was still enough to win with the offense based around Kobe, since Pau was enough to win that way
All this talk about choking.Pretty much everyone chokes. Most great teams lose at first before they get over the hump.MJ and the Bulls lost over & over to the Pistons until they finally won.Lebron lost to the Celtics and really had to join a super team to finally win.Those same Pistons lost to t he Celtics and Larry Bird until they got over the hump.If say Cooper Flagg and th
The problem is that 17.8 ppg is wetting the bed.
So is 22 on 35% with 6 TO's per game (07' Finals and 08' ECSF).. MJ never wet the bed with his individual performance.. By wetting the bed, the loss can literally be blamed on the bed-wetting.
Losing to the injured 1-star Magic as an enormous favorite was also a big black mark..
In addition to 38 ppg of ball-dominance, Lebron lost 3 fourth quarter leads by turning into a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time (last 5 within 5).. aka Mr. Butterfingers in the clutch with 7 TO's in the 4th of critical Game 4.
He also had the goat defensive blunder by choosing to defend Courtney Lee instead of his own position (Hedo) - he was the missing length that was needed to defend the Magic forwards.. It was an embarrassing mistake.. Overall, Lebron was either locked up, upset, or meltdown/choke from 07-11' - that's 5 straight years, which necessitated the "decision" to team up with opponents for the rest of his career (opposing franchise players).
Lebron averaging 17.8 ppg is the reason for the upset loss
No other factor comes close or matters.
Red Aurbach couldn't coach the Heat to a win with the best player choking at that level and disappearing in the 4th - essentially SABATOGING the team - it's impossible for anyone to win with the team carrier underperforming to that magnitude
lol at your “franchise player bosh” ….413%FG
Maybe LeBron should of take more shots instead to give the balls to your goat bosh …
He probably had the same opinion of you about bosh an dhe remedy it the next season -> lebron kept the ball more and they won.
To believe a player choke shooting at .478% while being the 3rd player in FGA is something …
Btw no players in the Miami had more rebound, assist and steals …
And Kobe 2011 shots for .458% with 23/3/2 with a 2 peats championships team lol …
Is that better ?
But Kobe 2004 at .381% with crazy high FGA ending at 22/2/4 it’s all good , it’s similar but lebron was worst lol…
When Lebron entered the league, no one thought he would give up after Year 7 and team up with opponents thereafter - it's a failure of expectation.. He was either locked up or massively upset from 2007 to 2011, which necessitated the "decision" to team up with opponents.. Truthfully, his ball-dominant skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically).. Ultimately, "bron-ball" has a lottery record against Finals teams over a large sample (22-33).. Lebron's weak brand of ball also has a non-winning record with every type of good roster, such as preseason favorites (4-4), Finals teams (4-6), 1 or 2 seeds (3-4) and all-star teammates (4-8).So he's nowhere near Jordan
Generally speaking, a teamwork deficit compared to the opponent means that the team is more of a 1-man team than the opponent.
This is intuitive.
Accordingly, if we use team assists as a proxy for teamwork, then Lebron never carried a team to victory when there was a deficit in teamwork (team assists).. He lost every playoff series that his team had less assists than the opponent - he never won a playoff series with less team assists/teamwork than the opponent.
The reason that he can't carry the load (particularly against top teams) is because excessive ball-dominance can't beat top teams... Indeed, he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (never carried weak help over top teams), in addition to needing teamwork advantages to win (advantages in team assists)
When Lebron entered the league, no one thought he would give up after Year 7 and team up with opponents thereafter - it's a failure of expectation.. He was either locked up or massively upset from 2007 to 2011, which necessitated the "decision" to team up with opponents/opposing franchise players. Truthfully, his ball-dominant skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically).. Ultimately, "bron-ball" has a lottery record against Finals teams over a large sample (22-33).. Lebron's weak brand of ball also has a non-winning record with every type of good roster, such as preseason favorites (4-4), Finals teams (4-6), 1 or 2 seeds (3-4) and all-star teammates (4-8)...So he's nowhere near Jordan.. The reason that Lebron must rely on ball-dominance is because he lacks the expert jumpshooting skill and ability to operate off screens like Kobe or MJ, aka he can't play in a system, aka "dynasty ball" like Spurs, Warriors, 90's Bulls - this is why he's inferior.. His skillset to dominate is a predictable "downhill" format, so he lacks the nuance and levels of MJ/Kobe or even Curry
FG just had best part of a week off. I assume it was because he was busy preparing materials only to be incredibly disappointed when he attended the "No Kings" protests to find out it wasn't about LeBron.
FG just had best part of a week off. I assume it was because he was busy preparing materials only to be incredibly disappointed when he attended the "No Kings" protests to find out it wasn't about LeBron.
Weak troll.. And be glad you aren't American
So again, it's intuitive that a teamwork deficit compared to the opponent means that the team is more of a 1-man team than the opponent.
Accordingly, if we use team assists as a proxy for teamwork, then Lebron never carried a team to victory when there was a deficit in teamwork (team assists).. He lost every playoff series that his team had less assists than the opponent - he never won a playoff series with less teamwork/team assists than the opponent.
The reason that he can't carry the load (particularly against top teams) is because excessive ball-dominance can't beat top teams... Indeed, he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (never carried weak help over top teams), in addition to needing teamwork advantages to win (advantages in team assists)
Recent thread cliffs
Lebron always needed good scoring help to beat top teams, since he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick.. In addition to needing good scoring help, Lebron needs teamwork advantages to win playoff series (advantages in team assists).. Accordingly, he can't carry the load like MJ, since MJ beat top teams with weak scoring help and/or deficits in teamwork/team assists
I thought it was a pretty solid troll, but you are the master. You've got over 3,700 troll posts to date.
I thought it was a pretty solid troll, but you are the master. You've got over 3,700 troll posts to date.
It wasn't horrible - not sure how you knew I was going to the rally but I guess that's what made it not horrible
And when I say that Lebron has a lottery record against Finals teams over a massive sample - that isn't a troll - it's facts - "bron-ball" is a massive loser on the championship level (22-33).
Similarly, when I say that zero young players grew from low producer to meaningful producer on Lebron's watch - this isn't a troll either - Lebron has zero young player development in 22 seasons... Instead, his high-scoring ball-dominance increases everyone's assisted buckets/spot-up role, and the spot-up role reduces their assists and PPG... These are statistical facts, not trolls... And of course the lower assists from teammates produces lower TEAM assists and assist deficits for every series loss of Lebron's playoff career - inferior ball movement is the catalyst in every loss, aka Lebron's weakness.. That's what happens when a big man physique tries to be a guard - aka the abnormal ball-dominance hinders ball movement, chemistry and player development, aka produces inferior teams..
For example, if Duncan was a Lebron or Luka-style ball-dominator, the Spurs wouldn't be able to run ball movement systems, goat chemistry, or have dynasties - they would stink with Manu/Parker in spot-up roles, and eventually traded as "not enough help".. Lebron never won with secondary producers like Manu/Parker and always needed franchise players/1st options from other teams to play 2nd and 3rd option - his weaker brand of ball requires more talent (and still mostly loses).
Again, none of this is a troll... It'a never a troll to cite relevant stats or facts, such as "bron-ball" having a non-winning record with all type of decent rosters - this includes preseason favorites, all-star teammates, Finals teams, and top seeds (1 and 2 seeds).. There are simply a lot of ways to demonstrate that Lebron is a "loser".. Just look at his clutch efficiency - it's worst-ever - I think he's 1-30 or something on his last 30 attempts of game-tying or go-ahead buckets, and 0-10 in the Finals.. He also has the most turnovers and missed shots ever, while being the only guy to shoot 35% and 6 TO's in a series.. So his career is a comedy of errors that includes 1 for 6 with AD/Luka, including 2 first round upset losses and a lottery season.. Lebron also has a lottery record against the Nuggets, Spurs and Warriors, while never beating the Wolves, Mavs and Magic - he had all-star teammates virtually every time except the first meeting with the Spurs
Austin arrived at the same time as AD, who led the Lakers in scoring and was the big assist target that a young ball handler needs to develop - so Austin was lucky to land alongside such a great franchise player and assist target (off-ball player) like AD.
So again, Lebron never developed anyone and Austin's stats actually crater alongside Lebron compared to when he's gone.. Austin is like a 27-30 ppg guy when Lebron is not there and making him a spot-up shooter
Secondly, a guy like Pippen had the physical talent so that a system could get him 20 points, while Austin can get 30 points just going 1-on-1, or moving off screens and being a pure scorer... Essentially, he's a far superior offensive player than Pippen ever was.. And I believe he hit a big shot in the playoffs, which Pippen never did (and was never even asked).. Pippen was mostly a dunker and nothing outside the system that he grew up in - he was allowed to learn while free of pressure to perform big or hit big shots.. No one noticed, cared, or was surprised when Pippen wet the bed, while Austin is already fully blamed for several losses.. So Austin naturally has all the leadership qualities and faith/trust in him that Pippen didn't have
There are many ways to skin a cat defensively, so Austin could easily replace Pippen to create an Austin/MJ backcourt - then put a pure shooter like Tracy Murray in Pippen's spot and make up for the defensive losses by finding a center that gets more than Cartwright's 0.3 blocks per game.. Longley's 1.5 might do, but there are a lot of options.. The lineup would be Austin/MJ/Murray/Horace/Longley
It's easy to forget that the 91-93' Bulls only had the 7th ranked defense and inferior to nearly all ECF and Finals opponents.. So we don't have to knock it out of the park.. Again, someone like Horry already played better in the 95' Finals than Pippen did in his 6 Finals, so the "system player" pippen caliber is a low bar
There are many ways to skin a cat defensively, so Austin could easily replace Pippen to create an Austin/MJ backcourt - then put a pure shooter like Tracy Murray in Pippen's spot and make up for the defensive losses by finding a center that gets more than Cartwright's 0.3 blocks per game.. Longley's 1.5 might do, but there are a lot of options.. The lineup would be Austin/MJ/Mu
So in reality the mj bulls weren’t never that great .
Many teams are much better .
I mean we saw how mj got easily crush with even worst team prior to 1991….
Clearly mj would have loss vs the team LeBron lost in the finals too …
Jordan didn't develop Pippen. Horace Grant, BJ Armstrong, and Bill Cartwright did.
The idea that Jordan developed anyone is absurd. He proved with the Wizards and Hornets that he has no ability at all to do that.
MJ has a 1-3 record against a very average Pistons team that has one player in the Top 100 of all time (and he's not even Top 30).
