nl50 - more unsureness vs shorties

Fold preflop, fish that 3B lineal and is short, not even close to call.

yes fold pre, fish needs to be a big whale to call for 64bb eff...

if his stack was double then it becomes closer.

JTs is your bogey hand. Wouldn't play it for the next month.

2b fold seems too soft and exploitable. at 100bb+ i like mixing in a 4b, for whatever that's worth. please help me understand why this is a fold at 65 eff, thanks guys.

The hands in a typical 3b range dominate JTs quite hard in this situation... Mostly a range of TT+ and suited broadways/AX. Even at 100bb effective and a smaller 3b size JTs is mostly folded... you add in some other datapoints like IP 3b range likely being a bit stronger, 3b size being larger, and effective stacks being smaller, all make a hand like JTs more of a fold.

4B JTs in this situation is also more or less a punt, especially vs. a weaker individual. I'd imagine 4b success in this situation to be <30%.

Fold pre...

If you want to get better at poker, provide a range you think is better than 2:1 here that makes sense. The best way to learn is asking... does this range make sense? Because this is shove or fold... call isn't really an option. The rest is maths....

Just call flop. Too many better hands if you jam vs shorty.

as far as coming up with a range, the range i give him here is something like 66+,A9s+,KJs,ATo+,KQo which when stoved is 63% to 37%. That's better than 2:1, is that what you mean?

pot is 7.25 and 3.50 more to call. maths alone makes it a call, no?

can you explain why call isn't an option?

[QUOTE=Brokenstars]

The hands in a typical 3b range dominate JTs quite hard in this situation... Mostly a range of TT+ and suited broadways/AX. Even at 100bb effective and a smaller 3b size JTs is mostly folded... you add in some other datapoints like IP 3b range likely being a bit stronger, 3b size being larger, and effective stacks being smaller, all make a hand like JTs more of a fold.

4B JTs in this situation is also more or less a punt, especially vs. a weaker individual. I'd imagine 4b success in this situation to be <30%[/QUOTE]

i appreciate your input and i though i disagree i hope you continue to discourse with me. i understand everyone advocates a fold ut the way i learn is by arguing and hoping ppl show me the error of my ways. If not, maybe I can convince you or at least widen your perspective and vice versa.

so i just think there's more to it. i think you have to step back and look at your strategy as a whole. even if a 4b at 100 eff yields less than 30%, i think it should be part of your game. furthermore it's no jam, just a bet, so no punt.

you were saying this datapoint led more to a fold (effective stacks being smaller). Can you explain why? I don't think him being short makes his range stronger.

what's everyone doing at 100bb?

also what does a 2b call range look like for you at 100 bb? does it change that much at 65 bb?

Thanks,
5th

ty for post flop analysis.

it's not an injury, this is a knot i need to untangle. why would i set it aside for a month?

First, the range you give him is not accurate, but even if it was and you believed that to be the case you still would not be able to profitably call here without some very big extenuating circumstances and assumptions. It's 3.50 to call to win the 10.75 pot giving you pot odds around 2:1 or ~33% without counting rake. So, assuming you realized 100% of your equity with a call -and- the range you gave him was accurate you are likely to breakeven if it checks all the way down. In reality, your equity realization here is <100% immediately making it negative.

I stated what I thought his range was above. You can look at various equilibrium ranges, but an unknown fish is more likely to be a bit more linear/stronger here making it worse to call.

At 100bb it is still a fold... if it was 100bb and a 9bb 3b it is also still a fold, but potentially getting close to breakeven-- marginally +EV if you can exploit him somehow. 120bb+ maybe closer to a call, 140bb+ calling is fine. As stack depths increase the calling range for OOP typically increases, especially if you have a skill edge as that will only increase as stack depths increase.

Also if you are considering 4bing this hand then that is basically not going to be good vs. almost anyone, but in this instance you also state that even if he only folds 30% to your 4bet you think it should still be a part of your game—this is illogical.

this is not all that i'm focusing on as i'm still digesting your material, thank you, but as for this area i wanted to comment. i believe some -ev plays result in optimal play as a whole. For example, being part of a straddle in a loose game or having some trash like 87s, jts in your 4b/fold range. if your 4bs are solely comprised of nuts that's too exploitable. i think it makes a great 4bet bluff hand, some of the time.

Then you believe incorrectly—at least from a theoretical perspective.

Here is fish range:

fold to 4-bet frequency is 20%...

Correctly prioritising the underappreciated prowess of 72s...

Actually that's a pretty sweet range tbf. "don't F with me MF"