Loose call pre lands us in hot water
1/3 NLHE 6 handed
People are moving around between tables so this hand is six ways. Game is fairly loose passive.
V - Asian woman nit. Has recently started being slightly less face up post flop, I saw her c-bet a low-low-low board multiway with AKo while she used to just play so face up checking her A-high and cbetting all overpairs. She plays a very tight condensed range to the flop. Limping hands like QJs, JTs, ATs and only opening or raising big pocket pairs. She has now added AKo/s to her opening and 3-betting range from what I can tell. She is very risk averse and does not like putting money in unless she thinks she's ahead. That said, she has bluffed once or twice here and there in the ~100 hours we have together...always with a draw that has 9+ outs. 850$ UTG.
HH w/ V: everyone limps, maniac 30 from SB, V calls BB with KQo, limper calls IP, Flop J-9-2r maniac bets 2/3rds, V floats next to act, limper calls, Turn J-9-2-A BDFD, Maniac checks, V shoves for pot, limper calls with AJ, maniac folds, river T, V scoops. (so she has some light x/calls).
---- V has ~850$ and we cover ----
V limps UTG, H sees K♣ J♥ and opens 15, folds back to V who limp/raises to 45, I call. HU IP 3! pot.
This should be a fold but anyway...
Flop 90 - K♥ 6♥ 3♥
V bets 50, we call
Turn 190 - 9♦
V bets 150, we tank call
River 490 - 4♥
V bets 300 leaving ~300 back....
I would fold preflop to the limpreraise. Without reads, that is often AA/KK or other premium hands. KJo plays terribly against that range. Your top pair is no good versus AA/KK/AK. This is really bad calling down. Maybe people should be limpreraising with balanced ranges, but that is not the reality at 1/3. Even if villain has a high percentage of bluffs preflop, you are just crushed by the value 3-bet range.
I can see you called down partly with the flush draw. However, if villain has QQ+/AQ+ and a heart, the draw is no good.
I wouldn't call a 3! with KJo if I had gotten cold 3-bet rather than limp/3-bet. You want to call a 3! with premium hands and pps or scs or suited broadway, which play OK versus JJ+/AK.
First, I did not expect that HH from the player you described.
Second, the players I play who are like the player you described are crushing KQ pre-flop w/ the limp/reraise. Just fold.
Third, I cannot see how you are possibly good w/ the Jh unless she is just pushing buttons w/ AK, AA, KK, which is difficult to believe. Now that you are here, flip a coin. I hope it comes up sigh-fold.
Isn't this the typical limp/reraise with AA/KK we see so often in low stakes? We are deep I guess to justify calling. As sick as it is I think we have to fold against a nit - this river card is great for your range yet here she is betting big. If she had AA/KK non heart I'd imagine she'd just check as a "nit"
PRE - raise bigger. At least $20. She's not limping to limp-fold. As played, fold to her 3B.
FLOP - I'd still fold.
TURN - still fold.
RIVER - hmmmm...we now beat KK, but I don't know if she bets KK on the end. Seems much more likely she has AhAx than KK. Or AhKx. Yep, still fold.
I'm expecting a reveal that you called and somehow won. Typical Banana thread. Well played.
pre seems v bad but i dont really see where you could fold post
is sort of tempting to just start bluffing on the flop and run it (giving up on a heart and probably an ace) if the risk averse read is accurate
You really called a strong raise pre-flop from a nit to crack her aces with K[emoji3530]J[emoji3590]?
Then you called standard flop and turn barrels because she does this with KT or QQ?
So you arrive on the river…. do you feel lucky?
Ok ok ..she's not a NIT in the sense of someone who vpips 2%. Here's some more info:
-she can spazz/tilt, like in the HH sometimes she seems to just 'go with it'.
-vpip about 15% pre, 10% limps, 5% opens/raising. So really just TT+ and AK here, maybe AQs or AJs because we're six ways.
-she's not creative postflop, her bluffs, if any, are always the obvious hands with big equity like KQcc on Ac Tc 7h she will cbet and possibly barrel
-she massively under triple-barrels
-she doesn't go for thin value on rivers
Would you call with KcTh? KcQh?
Ok ok ..she's not a NIT in the sense of someone who vpips 2%. Here's some more info:-she can spazz/tilt, like in the HH sometimes she seems to just 'go with it'.-vpip about 15% pre, 10% limps, 5% opens/raising. So really just TT+ and AK here, maybe AQs or AJs because we're six ways.-she's not creative postflop, her bluffs, if any, are always the obvious hands with big equity li
Everything you've written here, just confirms the read that not only does she have Aces here, she has AhAx.
So besides fold repeatedly after the l/rr, I do like sub's idea of sticking it in her eye on this monotone flop, then jamming turn if we felt like doing something besides folding.
Fold preflop the first time. If her limping range is "like ATs, JTs, QJs" or even closer to a 15% opening range (15% VPIP will be inflated by overlimping usually), KJo does not want to go up against that range. There could be a marginal argument if she is going to be so faceup post that you can take down the pot whenever she lacks a pair, but you need to be pretty confident in that. Just because limping is "something only fish do" doesn't mean that you can recklessly attack a tight open-limping range.
Obviously fold pre the next time to what is effectively a 4b.
Fold flop. Fold turn. She's barreling away into a monotone board for more than half pot. Top pair questionable kicker is not good here. Flop might be marginal with the IO of drawing to the Jh, but turn should be an easy fold.
By the river we've obviously established that we don't have a fold button, so call seems like the only option. At least there's a chance she is rushing heedless with AA/KK/AK no heart.
~~
That being said, it seems like in the HH she shoved with a gutshot to Broadway, so I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the read is just wrong.
Ok ok ..she's not a NIT in the sense of someone who vpips 2%. Here's some more info:-she can spazz/tilt, like in the HH sometimes she seems to just 'go with it'.-vpip about 15% pre, 10% limps, 5% opens/raising. So really just TT+ and AK here, maybe AQs or AJs because we're six ways.-she's not creative postflop, her bluffs, if any, are always the obvious hands with big equity li
She does not go for thin value on rivers so her river bet is either a heart that beats us or a bluff. If she was bluffing rather than value betting on the flop and river she got there as the obvious big equity bluff is the nut flush draw and those are her only possible bluffs. If she was value betting the flop and river and continues to bet the river she is bluffing or has a high heart to go with her value bet; AA or AK. From your description V should not be bluffing often enough for a call on river to be good but why on earth call turn if we will only call river on a K or J? Using your range for her the call pre was not wise.
Fold pre, fold turn. River I dunno LOL I guess if you put a gun to my head and made me play like this, I'd call but then I pay off too much.
Pre call with KJ is torching money vs this nitty limp/raise range. Flop/turn/river you’re just guessing.
Horrible calls pf and turn, but yeah 6 handed, you’ve come this far, can’t climb down the ladder from the high dive now, and she could’ve misread her hand or the board. Did you consider jamming on the flop with over 40 BBs in the pot to fold half her AA hands?
Usually, a limp/3-bet at 1/3 is AA/KK. However, it is possible she was bluffing all the way. This is the player who shoved the turn with a gutshot. It is still a fold to the 3! preflop, on flop, and turn. If she is bluffing all the way, she is definitely not a nit.
People don’t usually bluff big on 4 flush boards because it’s so easy to have and so easy to call down with the ace. I would probably fold river.
The river looks like the nuts or a bluff. Could have AA/AK with the Ah.
Fold KJo to 3!s. Fold everything except maybe pps if deep to limp/3!s.
She may have been bluffing preflop, but need to have seen her limp/3! and showdown a sc or something. Even so, KJo doesn't play well against preflop bluffs and her range could be mixed big pairs and bluffs, which KJo plays terribly against.
You can beat 1/3 just getting paid off when you have big hands. You can play aggressively, but it isn't easy against people who don't like to fold. There is no point in calling down with something like this when you could be running into a brick wall when she has what she is representing.
Imo, fold preflop, fold flop, fold turn (especially Turn, that looks like the most -EV decision to me), call River. (Edit: or probably fold River given the additional info in your second post, but still think River is the closest call and the smallest mistake regardless of what you did.)
Yeah, river is close.
Initial preflop could be limp with reads, but raise is standard. Rest are easy folds.
Think I'm ok with the preflop raise if we're in LP, although against a tightish UTG limper I don't think it is horrible to overlimp this hand (the shorter we are the more this should be an overlimp, but we're deep, so fine, imo).
I mean, we're getting about 30:1 IO and will be in position in an SPR 9 pot where we can perhaps create some things postflop against a face up hand, but our hand seems too junky / dominated to do that.
I dunno, I guess I can get behind a sigh call on the flop. Maybe she's cbetting QQ, maybe our Jh is good if not.
Think we really have to start releasing on the turn. She's indicating our TP isn't good and meanwhile the large bet is giving us horrendous odds to chase the flush draw (which has horrible IO on a four-liner, and might have poor RIO), plus we're not exactly sure how clean our K/J outs might be.
I mean, she did a nice semi-bluff attempt when shown weakness on a scare card in the HH hand, but is she really doing that on this river when it looks like we're simply calling on a flush draw? Mostly just looks like what it is (i.e. AAh or AhK).
GcluelessNLnoobG
I'm expecting a reveal that you called and somehow won. Typical Banana thread. Well played.
I'd like to amend my previous comment to add the equally likely fold and reveal that she had KK.
There aren't many players who'll take this line for value pre, on flop, and on turn, and then turn their hand into a 2/3-ish PSB bluff on the river, assuming she thought she was bluffing.
The single combo of KK is really the ONLY hand we beat in this line, if she isn't entirely clueless. She could have 3 combos of AA with the Ah, and 2 combos of AK with the Ah. Just combinatorically, we have to be getting 5:1 odds to call, if we actually know she's capable of doing this with the 1 combo of KK. If not, then it's a pretty easy fold on the end.
If we think she shows up with AQhh, other AXhh, QhQx or go really insane and give her 75hh, then it's even easier to fold river.
Even if we only give her AA/KK/AK, the UTG limp-3B is usually going to be a big PP or AK so often that KJo should just be an insta-muck pre. But if we get this flop and hang on to make the 5th nuts, and she barrels for a value-ish size on a 4-flush board, I still think it's a fold without any reads that she's prone to entitlement-spaz.
