JJ OOP after 3betting

What do we make of the limper? If the limper is horrible, there's some reason for a flat to invite him along. There's also not a lot of dead money in the pot, we'll be OOP, guy who will have position on us could be difficult, we're not playing short, and we're going to hate a lot of flops. So with that in mind, I wouldn't hate a flat.

I mean, this is the type of spot a 3bet is going to get us in a lot. A flop that greatly reduces the value of our hand, OOP against a non ABC player, in a small SPR where stacks can go in at any time. The more we're awesome in this spot, the more we're cool getting ourselves into it. The more we're not, the more we should perhaps avoid it. Honestly, I think every postflop choice sucks, so I avoid it.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Given the raise of a limper from the BTN, I think you have to 3! JJ.

These are all arguments in favour of a 3bet, not against it

Lol exactly.
Flop id go two thirds as there are draws out there. Then if he calls u can give up as u have better hands to continue if you are structuring correctly. It's ok to be bluffed sometimes. Remember GG only plays short stack so might be scared to play poker post flop.

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There's a few ways you can go about this. You can go thin and downbet flop+turn to keep middle pairs and draws in, or you can check flop and just give up. Whatever happens sometimes we gotta JLIG - just let it go.

FWIW, when looking at solver output for BTN vs. SB, and using the smaller GTO sizing, the robot range-checks the flop pretty much for any hand without an A or K...and save for specific hands like KK/AQ, it still prefers checking even for hands like KTs/ATo that it sometimes bets.

Once the flop is bet and called, the robot snap folds JJ to the 1/2 psb.

These are all arguments for *ending* the hand preflop, and if that happens that's a fairly decent result where we take down about 8bbs. But if that doesn't happen, then we've just sunk in 27bbs and put a hugenormous 146bbs trivially in play, which isn't as awesome. Alternatively, we can play a relatively small pot in a sucky spot and see what happens.

Gbut,getyourselfinspotsyou'recoolwith,imoG

PRE - seems fine. I could see sometimes flatting depending on our reads.

FLOP - too big with the c-bet. Should be a check or small, like 1/3 pot or less. I'd mostly check when HU and OOP as the PFR.

TURN - yuck. Time to fold.

I'm pretty sure JJ is a slam dunk 3b especially with the limper in there. You expect to be ahead when called and sufficiently ahead to account for your bad position. Yes you have to then play poker post flop and that's fine. We have what Doug Polk says is his 4th favourite hand! I'm surprised flop is gto check. I assume it's because of the connected low cards. Bet two thirds can't be terribly bad tho?

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How quick was the pacing of the turn bet? Did you check quickly on the turn in less than 2-3 seconds? If so, how long did Villain take before betting $160 after you checked?

If V floats wide on flop, I think I'm check/shoving this turn.

If V plays fit/fold in 3b pots, this might be a puke fold.

I believe the limper was a weak/tight player who isn't liable to stack off light. I didn't even consider flatting PF, just seemed like JJ was too strong for that, but worth considering all options esp against this non-ABC villain.

Regarding the c-bet sizing, I'm trying to grok the sizing considerations. I am convinced that I'm supposed to c-bet smaller here, but I don't fully understand why outside of "it keeps V's range wider." However, this V was liable to float fairly wide even to a 1/2 pot c-bet - certainly calling at least one bet w/ 66-TT and any probably inelastic w/ FDs. I could even see V raising a FD, although maybe not in this bloated of a pot...

Always using a smaller c-bet risks less when I have A high or underpairs in this spot - that's another advantage to going smaller. The SPR is also low enough that I can get stacks in with TPTK+ even w/ a small c-bet size, but I do lose some value w/ a small c-bet when he calls w/ 66-TT on the flop and then x the hand down.

SPOILER -

Thanks for this info. I'm curious how well you've found this type of solver output applies to live low limit poker since the GTO sizing is so much smaller and V's ranges and actions are so different? How do you utilize this info to improve your game?

I've been playing around with GTOW (specifically the drills that @Tomark suggested in this thread - https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/170/l... - of CO (Hero) vs BB to practice post-flop play after iso-ing a limper) and it's been good seeing the category of hands the solver likes to bet vs check, but a little unsure of how to synthesize the bet sizing and the action-mixing recommendations into my game. Any advice here?

I did consider a x/shove here due to V's perceived tendency to float wide and wondering if he could be playing back at me on this third 3b of mine in 2.5 hours. His sizing ended up being a bit big in absolute $ for this game so I thought he leaned strong here (although "strong" for V could still be a NFD or even TT which I am ahead of).

I don't have a ton of data specific to 3b pots on him to be super confident in his tendency to fit/fold vs float wide, though.

Pacing felt "in flow" to me. I paused 3-5 seconds before checking and he bet relatively quickly, but not a snap bet like trying to convey an "I'm so strong!" type of pace and vibe.

To the folks mentioning checking the flop (@stupidbanana @docvail) - is the plan here to call a 1/2 pot or less bet on the flop, then fold turn or river if aggression continues on most run-outs? Basically assuming that V won't double-barrel something worse than JJ often enough?

You blocked his royal. Spoilsport.

I'd recommend checking out the strategy playlist on the Hungry Horse YouTube channel. There's a lot there about range checking from OOP when HU as the PFR.

Basically, his argument is that low stakes players are going to over-stab when we check to them, and their sizing will often telegraph their hand strength.

Even before I started watching those videos, I realized that like most low stakes players, I was c-betting too frequently, but didn't have any good heuristics for when to c-bet and when not too. Starting with range checking OOP and range betting IP is a decent baseline strat from which we can deviate when conditions are right.

Here, with such a dynamic board, I'd expect this to get stabbed a lot, and JJ functions well enough as a bluff catcher. It's not like we want to play a huge pot from OOP with just 2nd pair and no BD draw. How we proceed after checking is going to depend on what V does, our reads, our range, his range, and our actual hand.

Our hand doesn't really want to check raise, nor does it want to play for stacks, so I'd mostly call any reasonable size flop bet by V, and likely fold if he sizes up with a turn barrel, because I generally don't expect most low stakes players to continue barreling with increased bet sizing with worse than JJ if we check-call the flop. Even if V's range is 77-QX+ and a lot of good draws, we're not doing great against that range, and we'll just be guessing / bluff-catching in a spot where opponents may not have enough bluffs.

Like, our read is this guy is LAG'ish, but how often is he going to triple barrel as a bluff or with worse value? I'd be surprised if he barrels with TT or worse SDV once we call flop. Yeah, he could have bluffs, but the bet sizing here has led up to creating a jam or fold spot for us, which would make me think his range is more value heavy. His best bluffs are going to have decent equity, and our hand blocks some of his best bluff combos. It's just a $hlt spot to be in.

My preferred line would be to check flop, and make a large delayed c-bet on turn if he checks back. Otherwise just check-call a reasonable flop stab and mostly fold to turn barrels.

If we want to c-bet flop, I'd go smaller, like 1/3 pot or slightly less, then maybe 40%-1/2 pot or just check on turn. Our goal isn't to play a huge pot from OOP with this hand, on this board. We'll have to slow down and check at some point, on most run-outs. I like checking flop because it gives us info that can inform our decisions on later streets.

Most players besides super fishy/aggro players play fit/fold in 3bet pots oop.

But ip, most ppl float very wide especially on boards that seem to be good for them.

3 3bets in 2.5 hours isn't that much.
If you're doing it quite a few times in an hour or less is a bit of different story.
I myself often have a nitty image, even if I 3bet 1 specific guy a lot, most don't really adjust. Because most of the time the guy I 3bet alot I have direct position on, and he has to be opening wide for me to 3bet him nonstop.

Flat pre is fine if the limper is bad. Once you 3bet, smaller flop bet works better. If he calls, just give up on the turn. Easy fold, move on.