Did we misplay vs whale?
2/5 8 handed
Villain is a huge whale with some aggro tendencies. She's new to the game. She would lift her cards high up in the air that her neighbors would see her cards.
She does random bluffs like check/minraise with a middle pair hand on river. Or pot river with random bluffs. Most of her bluffs were on river.
Then a friendly guy teaches her not to bluff as a beginner, she listened to his advice and owned him with thick valuebet on river, her teacher looked her up light.
But she still randomly bluffs out of nowhere occasionally.
Oh, she has called down multiple times with a pair for multiple streets, turned out opponent was bluffing with air.
She floats flop super light like kj on 779 multiway pot with 2 players behind yet to act. Folded to turn small shove(1/3 pot or less) though.
She also floats oop w/T7 on KJ6r, then turn Q donkship pot????
She coldcalls a gigantic raise w/47o on A23ss vs 1 bet 1 caller 1 huge raise in a limp multiway pot.
Effective stacks about 800-900.
MP (her teacher) limps
V limps in BTN.
Hero picks up K♥Q♣ raises to 30 in bb.
both call.
Pot 92
Flop Q♦7♦4♣
H cbets 35, only V calls. (When she was yet to act, she pulled in like a 70 stack, I thought she was going to raise, turns out she didn't pay attention to the action until others told her there was a bet out there. She calls without much hesitation after she was told it was only 35.)
Pot 162
Turn Q♥
H bets 110, V snap calls
Pot 382
River J♦
H bets 150
If you were Hero, what would you have done differently?
Btw, are we supposed to say anything when her "mentor" teaches her stuff like our ranges after hand???
14 Replies
I'm probably not raising KQo from the BB vs. two limpers if I don't think I have any fold equity.
On the river, were you trying to induce a bluff-raise or just hoping that she would just call your blocking bet?
FWIW, I'm not sure I'd call her a "whale." She seems more like a spazzy LAG who borders on being a maniac--and probably more difficult to play against than your basic 2/5 player.
I probably wouldn't be that concerned about the "teacher, " assuming he's not lecturing in the middle of hands, since the fact he open-limped from MP means he likely sucks.
How does she play draws?
Id prob x turn in hopes she starts blasting, but AP I think line is fine.
Maybe a little more on river, to get max value when she is in call down mode with bottom pair.
I kinda like check call on river since you said she will spew. I don't see many hands she will call with either. Unless you think she will call with literally any pair.
From her player type it sounds like she can show up with a lot of garbage like 7x, 4x and straight draws which I'm assuming she will finally fold on the river.
Disgusting spot if she jams the river after you bet.
As far as the mentor goes it's a bit inappropriate if the entire or most of the table can hear it. You can maybe pull him aside when you have the opportunity and tell him you don't appreciate that. Tell him you don't mind him helping her out (no way you can avoid this anyway) but would like it done in private/text
Not sure I raise pre, but here we are. Bigger on flop, bigger on turn vs someone who will call so light. I like a check/call on the river. The most obvious draw got there, and I don't want to face a shove.
Nothing you can or should say after the hand is over -- they can talk about whatever they want. You could always join in the conversation and confuse her or tilt them 😉 That's what I would do!
I think you're better off checking the turn and allowing her to start bluffing if she calls the flop extremely wide. I would also go bigger OTF - I think you can play an exploitative style with sizings in these games and no one will notice.
check turn vs all but the most passive players, because your turn range is dominated by hands that prefer checking.
as played probably fine to block bet river and fold to a raise.
Grunch:
PRE - don't raise KQo from the BB when there are limpers. They're not folding.
FLOP - don't c-bet the flop from OOP as the PFR with TP2K on a draw heavy board vs two loose fish. Just check-evaluate.
TURN - BOMB IT! Seriously, bet at least 1.3x pot, and I'd probably go 1.5x. Get max value from her draws and worse value.
RIVER - what are you trying to do with this bet size? Are you trying to get called, or induce a raise? You're not planning to fold to a raise, are you?
If you want her to call, go bigger, like 2/3 pot. If you're planning to fold to a raise, I'd rather just check-call any bet that isn't a gross over-bet. If you're planning to call a raise, I'd go a lot smaller, like 10% pot.
I don't like this 40% pot bet size against an unpredictable V who could have us beat or spaz raise with air. Either size up to depolarize and get some value, or size down to induce. This block bet sizing is just small enough to induce a raise, but too large for us to want to call off a raise.
Spoiler
She snapped with QT.
Imho vs her specifically I should bomb the flop and turn. She would just call with random2.
She was free money.
Imagine betting 100 flop 450 turn then ship river. Easy getting stacks in.
I was autopiloting once again in game. I was sort of doing it until I thought about the hands I've played after the session was over. Against a whale, I should bet huge vs them for value.
In game, I was scared of the flop, went for 'normal' cbet size. Scared of the river, went for the block bet size.
I'm with doc OTT, think this is a mandatory bomb, I would go 250. You have the effective nuts against a complete station.
I swear y'all will post reads that seem designed in a lab to get us champing at the bit to get stacks in with any TPGK, will flop said TPGK, improve even more OTT and never bet so much as 75% pot.
There's an interesting debate to be had about to what extent we bet ourselves vs trapping them, but so long as we're driving the action drive it hard! You're practically blocking action with these bets.
I swear y'all will post reads that seem designed in a lab to get us champing at the bit to get stacks in with any TPGK, will flop said TPGK, improve even more OTT and never bet so much as 75% pot.There's an interesting debate to be had about to what extent we bet ourselves vs trapping them, but so long as we're driving the action drive it hard! You're practically blocking actio
What would your line be? What bet size on each street?
FWIW - it does seem like the majority of posts on this forum cluster around "middle-way" bet sizes on most streets, perhaps trying to perfectly thread the needle of getting value while not losing our customer nor value-owning ourselves.
Not to cop out, but against this type of player there's a million options on the table and you should be able to level TF out of them based on previous sizings you've used against them or what their lucky number is or whatever.
Turn is the biggest blunder for me. I'd either bet the geometric size ($200+) or take some sort of stack-a-donk line.
The cake is kind of baked OTR with these stacks left and this card hitting, but I'd still at least go B75 ($300+). Jamming or x/cing (or even x/jamming) all seem suboptimal without specific reads but at least you've got the right idea. Don't block bet an aggro moron with trips-2nd-kicker FFS!
We could quibble about pre and flop all day. My standard preflop size in this spot is bigger if I'm gonna bother reopening the action (which we probably should against described player), but this is the size I would use HU and close to the size I'd use in the SB, so it's whatever.
Every option's on the table OTF; that's the hardest one for me to steer from the backseat.
Not to cop out, but against this type of player there's a million options on the table and you should be able to level TF out of them based on previous sizings you've used against them or what their lucky number is or whatever.Turn is the biggest blunder for me. I'd either bet the geometric size ($200+) or take some sort of stack-a-donk line.The cake is kind of baked OTR with t
Yeah, I agree with all that, or at least most of it. I may not raise pre with KQo when I know they're both calling and we'll be OOP. Definitely raising KQs. And the raise would be bigger.
My standard default is to check flop from OOP, even as the PFR, and especially when multi-way, when I think the board will get stabbed, which is what I think is likely to happen here. But I don't hate a c-bet. Just not sure what the small c-bet accomplishes.
You'd need a bus full of attractive women with deep-seated daddy issues and a penchant for making bad decisions to distract me from over-betting the turn.
And I'd bet chunky on the river. The only thing that might give me pause and lead me to not want to go full pot or more is wondering if she ever makes a flush, or shows up with QJ, or if she has it in her to raise for value with a worse hand. It would be gross to bet more than 2/3 pot and have her jam.
