C betting in 3BP IP
I've used a hyper simple strategy of range betting small in 3bet pots in position. If I wanted to move to a more complex strategy where should I begin? Which flops are worst for the 3bettor, not including mono flops. I would guess something like T hi through 8 hi flops interact with some hands we might not have as much of like JTs/J9s/maybe Q9s? I have a calling range on the BTN so my 3bet range is missing some of these hands.
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Maybe the thread will be more interesting with some HH"s. Here's some examples of 3bet pots IP from my database. Which boards are terrible to range bet flop? What kind of betting frequency are we considering on each board? I'm more thinking of my strategy with my overall range than with my specific hand in these examples.
Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD 2 Poker HUD and Database Software
NL Holdem 0.1(BB)
HERO (100BBs) [VPIP: 21.3% | PFR: 18.1% | AGG: 38.8% | Flop Agg: 46.4% | Turn Agg: 37.9% | River Agg: 31.5% | 3Bet: 8.8% | Fold to 3Bet: 55% | 4Bet: 10.6% | Hands: 88398]
SB (104.7BBs) [VPIP: 15.8% | PFR: 10.5% | AGG: 50% | Hands: 19]
BB (105.7BBs) [VPIP: 33.3% | PFR: 25.6% | AGG: 54.5% | Hands: 39]
UTG (225.5BBs) [VPIP: 25.6% | PFR: 20.5% | AGG: 64.3% | Hands: 39]
HJ (66.1BBs) [VPIP: 50% | PFR: 23.1% | AGG: 50% | Hands: 26]
CO (112BBs) [VPIP: 36.8% | PFR: 31.6% | AGG: 37.5% | Flop Agg: 50% | Turn Agg: 0% | River Agg: 50% | 3Bet: 33.3% | 4Bet: 0% | Hands: 19]
Dealt to Hero: Q♠ A♠
UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Raises To 2.5BBs, HERO Raises To 8BBs, SB Folds, BB Folds, CO Calls 5.5BBs
Hero SPR on Flop: [5.26 effective]
Flop (17.5BBs): 4♦ 3♦ 6♠
CO Checks, HERO Bets 5.5BBs (Rem. Stack: 86.5BBs), CO Calls 5.5BBs (Rem. Stack: 98.5BBs)
Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD 2 Poker Tracking Software
NL Holdem 0.1(BB)
HERO (99.5BBs) [VPIP: 21.3% | PFR: 18.1% | AGG: 38.8% | Flop Agg: 46.4% | 3Bet: 8.8% | Fold to 3Bet: 55% | 4Bet: 10.6% | Hands: 88398]
BTN (163.4BBs) [VPIP: 30% | PFR: 15% | AGG: 20% | Hands: 20]
SB (350BBs) [VPIP: 65.3% | PFR: 38.9% | AGG: 35.9% | Hands: 72]
BB (60.1BBs) [VPIP: 46.2% | PFR: 7.7% | AGG: 22.2% | Hands: 26]
HJ (113.3BBs) [VPIP: 20% | PFR: 13.3% | AGG: 31.3% | Flop Agg: 28.6% | 3Bet: 0% | 4Bet: 0% | Hands: 45]
Dealt to Hero: Q♣ Q♥
HJ Raises To 3BBs, HERO Raises To 9BBs, BTN Folds, SB Folds, BB Folds, HJ Calls 6BBs
Hero SPR on Flop: [4.64 effective]
Flop (19.5BBs): 7♣ 9♥ J♣
HJ Checks, HERO Bets 6.1BBs (Rem. Stack: 84.4BBs), HJ Folds
Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD 2 Poker Tracking Software
NL Holdem 0.1(BB)
HERO (100BBs) [VPIP: 21.3% | PFR: 18.1% | AGG: 38.8% | Flop Agg: 46.4% | Turn Agg: 37.9% | River Agg: 31.5% | 3Bet: 8.8% | Fold to 3Bet: 55% | 4Bet: 10.6% | Hands: 88398]
CO (21.5BBs) [VPIP: 81.8% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 11.8% | Flop Agg: 0% | Turn Agg: 25% | River Agg: 50% | 3Bet: 0% | 4Bet: 0% | Cold Call: 85.7% | Hands: 11]
BTN (202.6BBs) [VPIP: 46.7% | PFR: 40% | AGG: 27.8% | Hands: 15]
BB (123.2BBs) [VPIP: 22.2% | PFR: 16.7% | AGG: 63.6% | Hands: 18]
UTG (101.3BBs) [VPIP: 22.2% | PFR: 16.7% | AGG: 33.3% | Hands: 18]
Dealt to Hero: K♠ K♣
UTG Raises To 2BBs, HERO Raises To 7BBs, CO Calls 7BBs, BTN Folds, BB Folds, UTG Folds
Hero SPR on Flop: [0.85 effective]
Flop (17BBs): Q♠ 9♠ 6♥
HERO Bets 14.9BBs (Rem. Stack: 78.1BBs), CO Calls 14.5BBs (allin)
Split by hand class so you can say x 3rd pair or worse, x top set top two, x any air without ANY backdoor straightdraw or backdoor flush draw and then bet everything else. Depending on how wide your range is, you’ll cbet about 60-80% of the time by doing that.
Nice question.
I would decide on each flop who has the nut advantage and go from there.
First hand with Flop:
436tt
Co has all the sets you have none. Maybe 66.
I would not rangebet here but start to get pickie with your range OTF and bet a little bigger than 33% (like 50%)
You take your flushdraws, over pairs etc and dont bet the other suits for example. The ofsuit combos you take the ones with a Diamond.
I hope this will help 😉
I've used a hyper simple strategy of range betting small in 3bet pots in position. If I wanted to move to a more complex strategy where should I begin? Which flops are worst for the 3bettor, not including mono flops. I would guess something like T hi through 8 hi flops interact with some hands we might not have as much of like JTs/J9s/maybe Q9s? I have a calling range on the BT
Not sure if it's ok to post links here but I just read this article on upswing the other day. Thought they were helpful, and I'm pretty sure there are more all for free.
Article Summary: Don't c-bet OOP on low connected boards.
I'm not a pro and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but range betting all boards small is pretty bad IMO. There are flops where value comes from large bets with a lot of checking with most of the whole range, and then there are flops that can be range bet small. You could first study the flop subsets, identify the preferred size for each one and use those only, such as either B33, B50 or B75, and then go onto studying your range construction for each flop that doesn't range bet or range check.
Over time you'll develop heuristics and reasonings for different board types, such as "OK this one is low-low-low paired rainbow, my value wants to go large to extract from worse overpairs, but also check a lot to protect against turn probes". Or "Ah this one is K high so it's most likely a small range bet since OOP call preflop call range has very few kings." "Yeah this 876r should be close to a range donk by OOP, and they didn't lead here, let's check everything bc they'll either XR or probe turn so much anyways". "A high here, they have a decent amount A here as well, let's see which part of our range likes cbetting small and which part wants to check." And so on...
Wizard's flop reports are a very good tool for this type of studying. Once you start identifying board types and preferred sizes for each one better, then you are better off building a simplified strat for yourself and go onto turn continues. Turn is a lot easier to start working on when you actually understand why you are doing whatever on the flop, instead of just range betting a board without understanding why, from game theory perspective.
All of that is an active study process, and there's no way to give you a short answer that makes everything much easier on the flop instantly. You just need to put in the work yourself, but those points I mentioned are I think a pretty good start.
Hope that helps and gl.
Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD 2 Poker HUD and Database Software
NL Holdem 0.1(BB)
HERO (100BBs) [VPIP: 21.3% | PFR: 18.1% | AGG: 38.8% | Flop Agg: 46.4% | Turn Agg: 37.9% | River Agg: 31.5% | 3Bet: 8.8% | Fold to 3Bet: 55% | 4Bet: 10.6% | Hands: 88398]
SB (104.7BBs) [VPIP: 15.8% | PFR: 10.5% | AGG: 50% | Hands: 19]
BB (105.7BBs) [VPIP: 33.3% | PFR: 25.6% | AGG: 54.5% | Hands: 39]
UTG (225.5BBs) [VPIP: 25.6% | PFR: 20.5% | AGG: 64.3% | Hands: 39]
HJ (66.1BBs) [VPIP: 50% | PFR: 23.1% | AGG: 50% | Hands: 26]
CO (112BBs) [VPIP: 36.8% | PFR: 31.6% | AGG: 37.5% | Flop Agg: 50% | Turn Agg: 0% | River Agg: 50% | 3Bet: 33.3% | 4Bet: 0% | Hands: 19]
Dealt to Hero: Q♠ A♠
UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Raises To 2.5BBs, HERO Raises To 8BBs, SB Folds, BB Folds, CO Calls 5.5BBs
Hero SPR on Flop: [5.26 effective]
Flop (17.5BBs): 4♦ 3♦ 6♠
CO Checks, HERO Bets 5.5BBs (Rem. Stack: 86.5BBs), CO Calls 5.5BBs (Rem. Stack: 98.5BBs)
Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD 2 Poker Tracking Software
NL Holdem 0.1(BB)
HERO (99.5BBs) [VPIP: 21.3% | PFR: 18.1% | AGG: 38.8% | Flop Agg: 46.4% | 3Bet: 8.8% | Fold to 3Bet: 55% | 4Bet: 10.6% | Hands: 88398]
BTN (163.4BBs) [VPIP: 30% | PFR: 15% | AGG: 20% | Hands: 20]
SB (350BBs) [VPIP: 65.3% | PFR: 38.9% | AGG: 35.9% | Hands: 72]
BB (60.1BBs) [VPIP: 46.2% | PFR: 7.7% | AGG: 22.2% | Hands: 26]
HJ (113.3BBs) [VPIP: 20% | PFR: 13.3% | AGG: 31.3% | Flop Agg: 28.6% | 3Bet: 0% | 4Bet: 0% | Hands: 45]
Dealt to Hero: Q♣ Q♥
HJ Raises To 3BBs, HERO Raises To 9BBs, BTN Folds, SB Folds, BB Folds, HJ Calls 6BBs
Hero SPR on Flop: [4.64 effective]
Flop (19.5BBs): 7♣ 9♥ J♣
HJ Checks, HERO Bets 6.1BBs (Rem. Stack: 84.4BBs), HJ Folds
Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD 2 Poker Tracking Software
NL Holdem 0.1(BB)
HERO (100BBs) [VPIP: 21.3% | PFR: 18.1% | AGG: 38.8% | Flop Agg: 46.4% | Turn Agg: 37.9% | River Agg: 31.5% | 3Bet: 8.8% | Fold to 3Bet: 55% | 4Bet: 10.6% | Hands: 88398]
CO (21.5BBs) [VPIP: 81.8% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 11.8% | Flop Agg: 0% | Turn Agg: 25% | River Agg: 50% | 3Bet: 0% | 4Bet: 0% | Cold Call: 85.7% | Hands: 11]
BTN (202.6BBs) [VPIP: 46.7% | PFR: 40% | AGG: 27.8% | Hands: 15]
BB (123.2BBs) [VPIP: 22.2% | PFR: 16.7% | AGG: 63.6% | Hands: 18]
UTG (101.3BBs) [VPIP: 22.2% | PFR: 16.7% | AGG: 33.3% | Hands: 18]
Dealt to Hero: K♠ K♣
UTG Raises To 2BBs, HERO Raises To 7BBs, CO Calls 7BBs, BTN Folds, BB Folds, UTG Folds
Hero SPR on Flop: [0.85 effective]
Flop (17BBs): Q♠ 9♠ 6♥
HERO Bets 14.9BBs (Rem. Stack: 78.1BBs), CO Calls 14.5BBs (allin)
As for these without caring about your actual holdings, hand 1 check range if OOP seems to never donk. A quick check by them here would pretty much confirm that. Bet large or check if they do have leads in 3b pot flops, mostly check.
Hand 2 bet small or check. Villain should never donk. Usually bet with checks centered around third pair and low pair, some top pair, the rest just bets. Oversimplified ofc. Could probably simplify as a small range bet as well, the EV loss would probably be minimal as long as villain isn't very strong. The only problem is that if you simplify all flops that would theoretically bet like 75%+85% of your range, then that will become visible in villain's HUD on your stats as a very high 3b pot cbet percentage, and they can start check raising a lot more and probing more turns on boards like these.
