2/5NL Navigating JJ four way and OOP
Very good 2/5 table, I have $1500 and everyone in the hand covers me.
Biggest fish (BF) at the table raises to $20 in MP
I think making an exploitable fold is fine. I understand calling once, but I don't love it, knowing we'll be in the blender on a lot of turns. I don't think a raise is going to work out often enough to make it EV+, even though it may have worked out in this specific hand.I wouldn't beat up on hero or BB too much. Multi-way and with fish involved, people make all sorts of adjust
BF snap calls 800 with TP/GS and 2100 in the pot had H CR shoved, and BB presumably folded.
How is BB’s flop bet unorthodox? He can’t give a free card on that board.
BF snap calls 800 with TP/GS and 2100 in the pot had H CR shoved, and BB presumably folded.
How is BB's flop bet unorthodox He can't give a free card on that board.
Unorthodox may not be the right word. It's probably too complimentary.
He has an overpair and a GSSD. But it's a multi-way pot, in which he isn't the original raiser nor the pre flop 3B'er. So he's betting out from what is arguably the worst relative position with a capped range and a hand that doesn't mind getting called, but somewhat hates getting raised, especially if hero comes over the top with a big check raise.
If someone raises, does he call? How big a raise does it have to be for him to fold? If someone behind him calls his bet, and hero x/r's, it's kind of a $hlt spot. It makes me wonder if he was betting his hand for value or thought he bluffing, starting with the assumption that he was just set-mining pre, and is changing his plan on the fly once hero checks.
His hand is sort of a semi-bluff, in that it's not that strong, and it's hard for him to get called by worse, but he has some SDV and equity to improve. Maybe it's more of a merge bet, hoping to get called by worse and fold out better, but the sizing suggests he's polarized, which makes that outcome harder to achieve, I'd think. It seems more likely he'll fold out worse and only get called by better.
I guess that's why I said it's somewhat unorthodox, because I don't know what his plan is for the turn, or what he's hoping to accomplish on the flop, when he takes large sizing. If he's shutting it down on the turn, then it's sort of a weak bluff. If he's planning to just go with his hand unimproved, it's borderline kamikaze. Even if he makes a set, any 7 is a straight. If he makes a straight, it'll put four smooth on board and he's unlikely to get paid off.
I'd say he's bluffing, not betting his hand for protection, but this isn't a bluff that's going to work often enough to think he expects it to be a good play. He could just check and see what happens.
A couple of people have said bigger pre, but I think $110 is OK. If you use the 3X plus rule, it would be $80, adding another $20 since we are OOP is $110. I think ~$125 would be fine considering the fishy/bad players will call wide, but nothing wrong with $110. There is no reason to believe VGP is going to flat $110 wide or feel as if he can "come along" just because he has po
The 3X+ rule is generally when we're IP. When we're OOP, it's usually 4X+.
It's more of a suggested starting point than a rule. We can raise any amount we want. And 6X-7X in a spot like this isn't outrageous.
Another holiday detour ... but this seems like the wrong adjustment(s) to make with 65 IMO.
Calling 65 pre. when he's raising 74o pre. seems dubious. Raise or fold probably better.
Calling 65 on AK5, even when we know he's not betting good top pair, seems risky. Raise is probably better.
In both cases it's helpful to have an idea what he's doing with 99 or QTs.
These were fictitious HHs to illustrate my point about adjusting to unorthodox VIPs after seeing a showdown---in short to demonstrate that logging HH results (without being results-oriented of course) can be beneficial. Yes, but, I see your point, and now I remember there was a hand from a VIP in my game recently, who was playing probably 80/10, but chose to RFI 73s from EP and I recall seeing him with AQo at another showdown, a hand he didn't RFI/squeeze. But, yeah, I agree, about raising rather than calling 65 in that spot and also mucking it preflop. I actually have put some time into thinking about this VIP (a professional obsession of course) and how much he loves mid- one-two-three gappers (not lease because he cold-called a 3bet and 4bet from the SB with T7o and stacked my KK for 200bb). Vacations aside, it is relevant how VIPs do overvalue certain types of hands, and, furthermore, relish the opportunity of playing these hands in multiway 3bet and 4bet pots where they can stack overpairs with two-pair or justifiably peel on flop and turn with a pair/gutshot, etc (it's called the thrill of gambling under the veil of serious poker). One of our exploits versus these type should be to fold suited-connectors that might be playable in other spots v other types of villains.
The 3X+ rule is generally when we're IP. When we're OOP, it's usually 4X+.
It's more of a suggested starting point than a rule. We can raise any amount we want. And 6X-7X in a spot like this isn't outrageous.
Only if you know the fish are going to call. You sure as heck don't want them to fold, and there is no reason to be scared BB is going to come along with some random hand because you made it "only" $110.
The fish aren’t folding to 150 or 250 preflop.
