Fishy villain might have mucked the best hand, and it might be my fault
This is more of a poker ethics spot than a poker strategy spot, but feel free to comment on both. I have never been in a spot exactly like this.
$2/$5 game at Mohegan Sun on a Sunday afternoon. Hero just got moved to a pretty dusty main game along with the Villain in this hand after a new $2/$5 PLO game was called. At Mohegan Sun, the PLO game tends to absorb many of the NLHE fish and reliably makes the $2/$5 NLHE game worse.
Hero is a thirtysomething WG. I am a reg in the $1/$2 game and am taking an extended shot at the bigger game with mixed results. Immediately before this hand, I boat-over-boated the best player at the table to win a $1500 pot, though.
Villain is a middle-aged euro/middle-eastern fish. He speaks fluent English with a thick accent. I have never played with him before, but it’s pretty clear that he’s the worst player at the table, limping a bunch, varying his open sizes, and doing really weird stuff postflop. He has about $1000 in his stack and I cover to his direct left.
OTTH
JTo (suits don’t matter)
Four people limp and it gets to V in the small blind who juices it to $20. I have been attacking these types of raises a bunch and 3b from the big blind to $80. It folds back to V who calls.
Flop of 832r ($180 in the pot before rake)
Villain checks and I cbet $50. Villain calls.
Turn is 832 2 ($280 in the pot before rake)
Villain checks and I decide to give up and check back.
River is 8322 8 ($280 in the pot before rake)
Villain checks. I say, “I give up, you win,” and check back. Villain looks confused and doesn’t react. I say, “You win, I give up!” again. Villain pushes his cards forward, face down, and the dealer mucks them.
I take a beat, shrug, and turn over my hand. The dealer starts to push me the pot and V immediately gets very upset. He says, “I had ace high! He said I won the pot! He said he gave up! I had ace six.” The other regs are amused and explain that his hand is dead. The dealer is stone-faced and snap calls the floor over. The floor listens to V make his case again and, predictably, rules that the pot belongs to me.
Do you give the pot to V? Give him a partial refund? If so, is it because he’s a fish? Is it because what Hero did is too close to angle-shooting?
Give him nothing, he mucked bro.
I remember one time when I 4bet shipped flop with AQ on AK6r or whatever, villain called, turn 5 and river 5, villain had an A obviously yet he mucked. I didn't say a word. He said he had AJ, and said gg. I felt sorry for the guy, it was supposed to be chop. But he mucked it himself. How do I know he was telling the truth. It's not my fault he couldn't read the board. This pot wasn't that big, it was only 600-700. I 3 betted pre, cbet small, he raised, I shipped with tpgk, he puked call, he thought he was behind the whole way, turn and river didn't matter to him, he only thought he was behind.
Then another time, it was plo, I got it in with flop nuts straight vs some maniac. On the river the board paired, he mucked. Later guy right of him said villain mucked the winning hand(boat). He was the fish of the game. He couldn't read the board+his hand. Was it my fault he mucked the winning hand??? Btw, it was a gigantic pot like 4k pot.
He's not taking my money unless he shows them when all the money's in.
After he mucked, money's mine, no questions asked.
Then another time, I wasn't even in the hand, board comes out something like T9768 or whatever, 5 card straight. They checked river.
1 guy said top set and shows!!! In game just as I say "chop", the other guy mucked.
The dealer is like "no chop". I said sorry to the "top set" guy multiple times. Because I almost made him chop money with the other guy.
Top set guy didn't even realize it was supposed to be a chop because it was a 5 card straight out there.
So which means both of them didn't realize it was supposed to be chop.
I thought it was super obvious it was a chop. No neither of them realize it's a chop.
I just don't do what you did. It is an angle even if you didn't angle intentionally.
Because both of you checked the river the SB has to turn over his hand first. In this situation I never say anything and just wait for the SB to turn over the winning hand.
If for whatever reason I said what you said that SB had won the hand (which you don't know by the way - he could have 54s for example) and he starts to muck his hand I would try to stop the dealer from putting it in the muck pile). This has never happened like this to me so I have no idea if I could have saved his hand from being mucked.
In all likelihood in this case I would give the other player the pot (because he had interpreted what I had said as conceding the pot) but I might also just give him back the chips he had bet with because what he did was never going to get him the pot. He thought you had conceded the hand which you basically did.
Next time you do this just make sure you let the other player know he has to turn over his hand in order to win. I'm guessing it is a rule at Mohegan Sun that the winning hand has to be turned over and he just didn't realize that.
Give him nothing, he mucked bro.I remember one time when I 4bet shipped flop with AQ on AK6r or whatever, villain called, turn 5 and river 5, villain had an A obviously yet he mucked. I didn't say a word. He said he had AJ, and said gg. I felt sorry for the guy, it was supposed to be chop. But he mucked it himself. How do I know he was telling the truth. It's not my fault
To be completely fair, these are all examples of players not reading the board correctly. I have been in those spots as well and always keep the pot. In the OP hand, my table talk unintentionally confused this guy and influenced him to muck his hand before I had mucked mine. To add to the situation, English isn't his first language and he is likely a relative beginner. Plus, he's the worst player at the table and I have direct position.
Keeping the pot might still be the move though, haha.
Harsh lol. Verbal isn't binding in this instance, at least at Mohegan Sun.
IMO a sleazy angle would be to lie and say "I have a 3" or even willfully obfuscate and say "I have two pair." What I did was purely unintentional, even if it was an angle.
Villain could be angling. Card speak. Cautionary tale. "Meaningless" table talk can lead to this.
Floor decides.
The fact that you emphatically said a SECOND time, "I give up, you win" could have made anyone think you were folding, but especially someone who might be a tourist.
I would have at least split the pot with him. You feel bad because you know he was cheated out of the pot. If I was at the table, I'd definitely be keeping an eye on you, and I wouldn't hesitate to call you out if I saw you do anything else even remotely non-standard.
Why did you hold on to your cards? (Rhetorical, we all know why, and that's what makes it an angle, intentional or not.)
As described, and per the floor, you won the pot. It's yours to keep. Villain is an adult playing an adult game. No rebates.
If/When appropriate, someone should explain to Villain what he did wrong and what he can do to prevent something similar from happening in the future.
Hero could be angling. Card speak. Cautionary tale. "Meaningless" table talk can lead to this.
Floor decides.
FYP
Harsh lol. Verbal isn't binding in this instance, at least at Mohegan Sun.
IMO a sleazy angle would be to lie and say "I have a 3" or even willfully obfuscate and say "I have two pair." What I did was purely unintentional, even if it was an angle.
LOL at your weak rationalizations. You angled him, kept his money despite knowing you angled him, and now you are here trying to convince yourself you have nothing for which to feel guilty.
Scumbags gonna scumbag.
Why did you hold on to your cards? (Rhetorical, we all know why, and that's what makes it an angle, intentional or not.)As described, and per the floor, you won the pot. It's yours to keep. Villain is an adult playing an adult game. No rebates.If/When appropriate, someone should explain to Villain what he did wrong and what he can do to prevent something similar from happening
You said it was a rhetorical question, but I will answer anyway -- it's because my hand wins at showdown occasionally against something like 54s or T9s that floats with backdoors. I basically never muck my hand unless I am absolutely sure that I can't win or chop. My first genuine reaction when villain mucked was that I must have had the best hand and he just didn't want to show.
Folks can suggest otherwise, but I had no intention of getting a better hand to fold using table talk. Frankly, I was embarrassed that I re-isoed a bad hand and gave up on the bluff. I wasn't planning on showing if I didn't have to, but I wasn't just going to surrender the pot without seeing villain's cards.
Whatever, Dude. None of us were there, so feel free to make yourself the hero of your own story, despite the weak sauce you've already posted.
Not a fan of the repeated "you win" while holding your cards. Just stay silent if you don't want to help him. Yes, villain should know better but he didn't.
Seems like the confusion genuinely led to a mucked winner. Ace-6 seems like a weird hand to fabricate. If you believe him, I would chop the pot and let villain lose his money the usual way (or get lucky, win and come back again).
Whatever, Dude. None of us were there, so feel free to make yourself the hero of your own story, despite the weak sauce you've already posted.
That's ****ing harsh.
Anyways, I believe you did nothing wrong. It really is the fact that he himself could've been angling and mucked a worse hand and claimed to have the winning hand after seeing J high. Simply because of this fact, I would kinda feel sorry, but would never give him anything unless they could retrieve it specifically from the muck.
I had a similar situation, where on the river the SB bluffed, the BB called his bluff, SB said 'good call' and moved his hand towards the muck (but still live), and BB put his hand on the muck (he was in seat 10). SB then opened his hand because he did want to see what BB called with it, but obviously his hand was now dead.
They pulled up the top 2 cards of BB to show he did in fact have the best hand, but rules stated it was still dead. SB gave BB half the pot xD
That would be cheating.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that Mohegan Sun has this rule on "the books", just that it would be reasonable for a floorperson to err in favor of the player who is being angled.
If you said nothing and he mucked keep the pot, you pretty much tricked him so kinda ugly. No guarantee he won so id offer bread back but not entire pot. But in the future just dont be table talking in the situation
You know that you angled a Tourist and you knew it was a scum bag thing to do when you did it.
Eh, the posts are getting weirdly harsh, so I am just going to reveal that I immediately gave villain the pot after he spoke up. As I mentioned earlier, my initial reaction was that villain was legitimately mucking his hand because he couldn’t win (e.g. he had 54s or something) but as soon as he spoke up, I realized what happened and moved to push the pot to him. The dealer insisted that the floor come over first, so we let him make a ruling and then I made things right.
The other regs at the table told me that I should have kept the pot, and so did a friend that I texted afterwards, so I figured it would be fun to make a thread and get 2p2er’s views on the hand. I didn’t even consider chopping the pot in the moment, but that is probably good too. In the future, I probably won’t talk in this scenario (or make another thread like this, haha.)
Would love to sit at a poker table with anyone who claims I knowingly angled the guy, and that I clearly kept the pot, because your reads are really bad.
This thread also inspired me to do a deep dive on the MS rules and apparently the winner of the hand (but only the winner) can request that the dealer pull the dead hand from the muck in order to reverse the ruling, which is honestly good to know.
If a Player asks to see a losing hand, the pot is pushed to
the winner first. Then, although the losing hand is dead,
the Dealer may tap the muck with the losing hand and
display the cards. The losing hand will be considered
dead even if it was discovered to be the best hand, unless
the winner of the pot was the one that requested to see
the hand.
It goes without saying, but the floor did not bring up this rule in-game. If he had, I likely would have agreed.
I just don't do what you did. It is an angle even if you didn't angle intentionally. Because both of you checked the river the SB has to turn over his hand first. In this situation I never say anything and just wait for the SB to turn over the winning hand. If for whatever reason I said what you said that SB had won the hand (which you don't know by the way - he could have
Not saying it is a good rule or "right" but I know of multiple (non-Vegas) rooms where Hero has to show first as he was last aggressor (on the flop, iirc). I also have seen rooms where it should be V to show first based on c/c river but certain dealers will insist H is first to show.
OP,
if you really said "you win" twice, even though not official poker action words, you angled V, even if not fully intentional. Tech. it is your pot per the rules. But definition of an angle is staying within the rules but relying on a technicality to achieve a beneficial outcome. I see this especially in this case because even though V appears English fluent, his fluency may be well less than you perceive. If you really give up, just discard your hand at really let him win. (Even better would just be table your hand simultaneously as you check the river.)
Not saying it is a good rule or "right" but I know of multiple (non-Vegas) rooms where Hero has to show first as he was last aggressor (on the flop, iirc). I also have seen rooms where it should be V to show first based on c/c river but certain dealers will insist H is first to show.OP,if you really said "you win" twice, even though not official poker action words, you angled V
Thanks for the thoughtful post. I agree with your assessment that it was an angle, although I maintain that it was unintentional. I have probably made a version of this same speech ("I can't win" or "I give up" or "I think you have this one") dozens of times over the years and it has never led to this situation. Going forward, I will stop doing so.
To your first point, I looked up the MS rules and V is required to show first based on the river going check-check, at least by the letter of the law.
