T9s at soft game

Raising preflop with T-high when our opponents are short seems like a -EV play.

Opening this hand at smaller stack sizes from this position seems meh to me. I would just overlimp in.

I'm fine with a bet on this flop with all our equity.

Facing a check/raise from a shorty we should have 0 FE and obviously we're behind. It's unclear exactly how many outs we have but we probably have enough to call here and hopefully drag the other guy along to pad our odds.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you say "soft game", but I typically take that as one featuring lottsa passive payoff stations. So on shortish stacks, that mostly means we should just be patiently waiting for value, and pumping it for 10% of stacks preflop with T high ain't that, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I tend to agree I guess I never put much emphasis on it. But when Vs ranges are so inelastic pre I could just go 30 here with AA and 15 with T9s..or limp. The game was so face up post flop. Like cbet and take it down so I was confident and opening a lot of hands.

I would bet much smaller on this Flop. Basically however small I can bet before it looks so small that I think people will raise me. If people haven't hit this then they'll fold to any bet, and if they have hit it, they've probably hit it so much that they won't fold either way. There's very little benefit to betting 25$ over 15$, and I think significant downside.

Raise to 20 over a 6 straddle and a call/limp is very small, even if you don't totally size up versus occasional straddles. I think a raise is OK for value and has some deception. OK to limp. Could make it smaller figuring it won't provoke a 3!, but don't think there is a big problem with a larger raise. Could even go larger, a more normal size raise, and maybe take it or get HU.

You almost have odds to gii versus short stack, assuming he has straight or 2-pair. Set is unlikely, since shouldn't limp/call AA/KK, and shouldn't limp/call TT either and you strongly block that. If someone has flush draw, it could be bigger or smaller. Not sure you can shove. May have to flat call, but not crazy about it.

If you completely missed flop, then you could cbet smaller or check and maybe bluff the turn if it checks through. I don't like cbet small with combo draw. Possible to check and reevaluate.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t see calling a straddle the same as limping in. Calling & checking the flop seems more +EV than charging ahead. I think with pot control you have a chance to realize your draw.

As played, you have to anticipate the rest of V1’s stack going in on the turn. In addition, you’re not sure what V2 will do. You might have enough equity to call & see the turn, but you’re gambling that V2 doesn’t re-raise.

I think you’ve landed in a tough spot, but since you’ve been aggressive, I like re-raising V1 all-in. This is your best chance to get V2 to fold & V1 might fold too. You have a lot of outs that can springboard you way ahead in this hand.

They capped themselves calling preflop and the board favors your range. It’s going to be hard for a weak ace to call. Seems too tight to fold, a call might work, but I think aggression is the best play. I’ll take my lumps if I’m wrong, but I have to do what I think is best.

But, I can tell you that my specific reads on each player could change my opinion completely, so there’s always that…

I like the raise and especially a hand like this where we have great board coverage between perceived range and our actual hand. I like a small bet on this flop - broadway boards will play extremely straight forward and will only raise with very strong hands. As played call the raise and see the turn hopefully 3 way.

I wouldn't even assume a T is good vs. V1 and it's possible he has exactly Q♥J♥ ... V2 is very unlikely to have a better flush unless you think Q♥8♥ / J♥8♥ or worse are there much.
Would assume fold equity is very small vs. V1, like I can't even think of a hand I might raise multiway on this board and then fold when I need 20% equity to call HU.
We also have position on V1, so if the turn is a A/K/T and he checks there's some value on our decision about what to do.

So the best options seem likely to be call or fold, and I would strongly lean fold given your reads that everyone is playing limp/call fit or fold face up and you can win a bunch of other hands uncontested. Calling and spiking a flush is always fun though.

Also don't really care if we call and V2 raises behind, unless he likes to slow play monsters.

tl;dr fold > call >>>> raise

Prelim Result:

Not sure it matters much between call and shove.

If V2 is def. calling then shove, but if not I'd be tempted to just call and make it look better for V2 to put the extra 100 in.

this is contrary to my thinking. you think we're ahead of V2 here?

I think we are only winning the main pot if we improve, and most of our outs beat V1+V2 ... so if V2 puts an extra 100 in for us to win that's fine.

For the side pot, I think it's pretty close where he can have some hands like KQ but also things like 7h6h ... both are in the "should fold flop, but didn't" category and I'd say that if you reshove he leans more towards finding the fold than if you call, and while it's not obvious which hands he picks to fold I would be folding KQ before flush draws.

As a final point, if V2 has like AT and V1 has AK and we get V2 to fold the turn and a T hits the river ... that's the only way to make it the best game ever on the next hand.

Result:

If we shove flop we likely fold out V2 who might be stealing our equity with a better flush draw or KT / AT. V2 is committed anyways so calling or raising doesn’t matter against him.

I don't understand our reasoning of wanting to push V2 out when we're clearly behind V1 and thus need to improve? Pushing V2 off a better hand isn't much of a coup if we're still behind V1 (with the only exception being if we somehow push V2 off something like KT which frees up some of our outs against something like AJ for V1, which would be quite a parlay). Although I guess there's a chance V2 is on a better flush draw? But overall, when we're likely behind the all-in and need to improve to win the pot, we're mostly better off attempting to invite the other guy along to pad our odds, imo. We're not exactly clear on how many outs we have, but getting almost 4:1 and possibly having V2 pad that behind us, I think we probably should just sigh call the turn.

GcluelesssighcallingnoobG

Grunch

$20 is a small raise over a $6 straddle and BB complete. I'd go either $25 or fold. Only going $25 if the straddle is a tightish player. Maybe limp is the straddle is really passive preflop.

OTF, I don't see a reason for a $20 bet. We aren't pushing out many better hands. I'm thinking that we go big or check, favoring check.

Once BB ch/r us I'd assume he has two pair +. Most likely he has a straight given the small raise sizing. Very unlikely he has a q-high or j-high flush draw, which is what we'd want to see. I think all of his two pair have your ten covered. This is an easy fold to me.

If it's a soft game, why are we screwing around by raising pre with middling hands and getting it in post with bottom pair and the 37th NFD versus short stacked recs?

Bad preflop thought process. We are allowed to ISO-raise a good but not great starting hand over 1 limper when we are HJ as long as we are careful of the limper preflop tendencies.

I disagree with this. T9hh is a fairly good starting hand from HJ. It really depends on the limper's tendencies whether we want to tighten up here to the point of not ISO-raising T9hh.

FWIW, the OP described the limper as a loose passive fish. That's why I wouldn't immediately jump on the "ISOing T9hh in the HJ over 1 limper is pure spew" train.

You've made multiple posts in rapid-fire succession making the same vapid point, and you still haven't explained why raising with T-high vs. a short-stacked loose-passive is a good play.

This feels like a hand I posted a few days ago with a straddle, raise, and non-nut flush draw c-bet getting raised at a more or less standard 1-3 table. Stack depth is different, along with the particulars of players and positions, and the flop connection with an opening range, but the expectations are similar.

Straddles and callers are generally fairly inelastic to raise sizes. They're either going to the flop or not, with the occasional AA/KK lol-back-raise just for fun. Continuation bets have similar dynamics, and fit or fold.

I'd let this one go on the flop with marginal showdown value, limited fold equity, and dirty outs. There are too many better spots. I would have likely played this one the same through the original post.

"Nice hand, sir."

We're pretty much never going to be successful "isolating" anyone from the HJ in a "soft game". Even here we still went 3ways to a non-favourable SPR for our hand and OOP to boot. If a reasonable raise (not lol 10%+ of stacks) has a good chance of actually isolating someone in position then iso away, but otherwise it is meh/spewy, imo.

Gcluelessmeh/spewynoobG

The raise pre is borderline defensible. The flop c-bet and turn jam really aren't. We're almost always going to be up against better value or a better draw here.