Etiquette Question: Game breaks after I decline my straddle

I agree the button straddles was good in soft lineups.

My opinion:

Button straddles are more popular when there is an optional straddle situation going on.

When there is a mandatory straddle situation (entire table agrees to a straddle), UTG straddles are more common than button straddles.

There's an argument that the button straddles discourages action post flop when it's a mandatory straddle situation. However, in soft lineups, it's possible that the button straddle is better for the game. If that's what the fish want, let them have it.

Notice you say "more popular" and then "more common". WORDS HAVE MEANINGS. I disagree at all with these two statements. But they are independent and separate statements.

BTW, btn straddles biggest impact is pre-flop. It encourages the blinds (SB in particular) to play tighter. Since most weak players play the SB (and lessor extent BB) too passively, by encouraging them to fold pre (this does presume the room is not using the LVGN btn straddle), you are helping them play better.

Since, other than bloating the pot, post flop the btn straddle has minimal impact on the action.

But again, your statement that 'makes play post too passive' along with the 'if the fish want it' statements are not related.

But at least in NLHE, btn straddle is generally bad for the game. Those fish are going to play better preflop and bad play preflop is one of the biggest leaks weak players have. Even if they are straddling the btn, it is a less bad move than an UTG straddle. If the fish are going to straddle, you want them doing it UTG.

Certainly there can be a uncommon precise set of conditions that allow btn straddle to be good for the game. But it is far more common that it is bad for the game.

It does make the game bigger. So if you have an advantage on the table you like the btn straddle even if you aren't the one straddling. It makes the game bigger. But vs. a UTG straddle, the UTG is almost always better for the game than a btn straddle.

I'm amazed that they allowed it. My guess is that the dealer didn't know any better or was OK with it if nobody at the table complained.

In all other places that I have played cash games in, that allow straddles, there can be multiple straddles but they have to be consecutive. So if UTG straddles then UTG+1 can also straddle and UTG+2 can then straddle. But in fairness the places I played in didn't allow BTN straddles. The WSOP cash games were the first time I had played where there could be a BTN straddle. And at my 2/5 NL table the dealers did make the UTG retract their straddle when the BTN straddled after the UTG had.

Thanks; a ton of great information here!

Someone asked earlier "was there straddling happening prior to the couple sitting?" Yes, maybe 2 of the 6 players were straddling. I was not as the game was playing plenty big for my liking.

Lol at whoever said to refuse the mandatory UTG straddle but double straddle on the button to tilt her. Nice!

It sounds like the game was better before they arrived.

Mandatory straddles can make the game worse.

LOL 😀

These 2 player types that you described frequent 5 5 PLO games, and they will always try to double the stake of the game. Scam alert!

I play $2/$5 NL in a sofla room, bunch of times the game has a mandatory button straddle. It's usually a great game with tons of action. I play tight and normally don't straddle, but it's worth doing it in this game.

If you're better than them, just do it.

People in this thread don’t understand the difference from written and unwritten rules. Happens in business too. There’s always people who are trying to take advantage/make their own rules. It’s usually best to avoid them or find a way to live with their antics. High stakes is a small player pool if you piss off people and try to keep playing people will block you out by going private/moving to home games in my experience

While what you say as an outcome is true and must be a consideration, the ones trying to "make their own rules" is literally those saying the table can make a straddle mandatory.

If the game is placard at 25/50, and you sit down, it is a 25/50 game and the straddle of 100 would be voluntary. Claiming it is mandatory is literally trying to "make their own rules".

I bet this same person would never say the straddle was mandatory is a new whale (or just a fish) joined the table.

For sure if you're playing the mistakes PLO games in Vegas, if you don't straddle, you will face a lot of resistance. Because 95% of the times the games run with a straddle. There are a lot of European players out there specifically that think you're costing them money (because they make less per hour when this happens). Most of the Americans are somewhat reasonable to deal with but it's also some American pros that would give you a hard time. Also, some recreational players will pick up on the dynamic and think if they straddle everybody has to do it now. That's because 2 French guys at the table told them that and now, they believe it. Normally in most games where this isn't the culture, rec players straddle and don't expect everyone to do it.

It's a lot of passive aggressive behavior going on. If it was blatant, you could report it. And it's not a small player pool. They have a lot of PLO games running out there, although there's not always multiple tables running, more often than not there are multiple games running.

I don't play the high stakes games there so I can't comment.

Can you give us some examples of stuff that happens in business, "unwritten rules"

"It’s usually best to avoid them or find a way to live with their antics." I agree, avoiding the games or just being comfortable being the villain and not being well liked at all.

If I find myself in a game where the other players want it to be a 'mandatory' straddle I will always offer to change tables (assuming there is one without the 'mandatory' straddle). Sometimes the others say it's not necessary. If there isn't another game (of that type) running (without the 'mandatory' straddle), depending on how I feel, sometimes I straddle once (and announce to the table it's the only time I'm going to do it), sometimes I don't. But that's it If I get any pushback(which rarely happens), I tell them that they can play $5/$10 (if I'm playing 2/5) if they want. Because 2/5 with a mandatory $10 straddle is basically the same as shorter stacked 5/10 with no straddles allowed.

What you're saying makes a lot of sense.

Unfortunately, the games I was playing in, the majority of the tables were straddling, and often all of the tables were straddling. That's fine, but if you didn't want to participate, the next game went from 5 5 10 20 down to a 1/2 PLO game. I already had my accommodations booked here and I had travel expenses to cover, so I decided that I would play 5 5 10 with and optional straddle. Also, manty times I would successfully get a good game going without the mandatory straddle. If I had a game going with optional straddle, the pros had me outnumbered by a far margin and would come in and ask for the straddle in my game. And they would **** up my game. I had some great ones going on. There was bullying going on in those games and I never saw anybody get disciplined for it. They would talk **** to the person who doesn't want to participate. Don't believe me? Try playing the 5/5 PLO games in Vegas for a few weeks and let me know how it goes without a straddle.

WTF is up with this sentiment? Why would one player in the game have a responsibility to make money for another player in the game? The whole point of poker is to -take- money from the other players. If you're playing to help other players, that's collusion.

I just know that I was being harassed for not straddling, mostly by pros who were there, and the majority of them were from Europe.

I reported a few of pros that were bullying. The floor people were aware what's going on.

The pros would most likely make less money when the straddle is off (hourly rate), because the game is smaller. Actually, the game is 50% smaller if it's 5 5 10 with a 20-dollar straddle.

I find it a bit different. If the whole table wants to play with a straddle and one guy doesn’t, I think it’s either time for him to find another game or just suck it up and post the straddle. It’s not like the game changes that much in reality, and in the long run it probably benefits you more than it hurts.

In my local game (1/2/10 – a 3-blind setup), because of some weird rules we can’t straddle. If players want to pump the game up (usually when stacks are deep or there’s a huge action player who likes it), we have to make it a blind raise. But if even one guy disagrees, it becomes kind of a huge freeroll for him.

If the game is bad and some pros just want an edge by making the game bigger, then fine — I think it’s reasonable to say the game doesn’t need a straddle. But if the game is already action-packed or players are falling asleep, there are so many more benefits to having a straddle.

And of course, I’m talking about PLO here. NL is just a snoozefest in my area.

Where i was playing the game options was 1/2 or 5 5 10 20 or 25 25.

The problem there was that the jump up from 1/2 to 5 5 10 20 was quite significant.

Also, I was told that the game was better a few years ago at the 5 5 10 before they allowed straddles.

I had some players tell me they didn't like it but that they felt obligated to do the straddles or move all the way down to 1/2 lol 😀

The other venue I played at seems to be a better setup:

They have a 5 5 10 game, and straddles are not allowed.

But they also offer a 10 10 25 game, and a 2 2 5 game. This makes a lot more sense to me.

However, the original issue at the other place of going from 1/2 up to 5 5 10 20, because the straddle was supposed to be optional. It's a big jump. The only other game is if you leave out of town.

I can appreciate your perspective. Based on what you wrote that point of view seems reasonable.

What's the dynamic like when somebody doesn't want to do the straddle? How do people react?

Basically, it's fine as long as people are chill about it and don't make a big deal if you don't want to do it. If people are expecting it and are pissed off if "everybody doesn't agree 100% of the time" then that can be looked at as false advertising, because it's not on the board. The other option is to play a bigger game. In this case, it's 25 25 in some places after 5 5 10. Other places offer a 10 10 25 (and I don't see many conflicts at these places compared to the other).

The best games are sometimes when the straddle is optional and people choose to straddle because they like the action, but it's not like you're only doing if everybody does it. The guys that only straddle if the whole table is doing it, by definition are basically just trying to raise the stakes of the game. It can be fun, but if you're playing beyond your bankroll, you might be putting yourself at risk. There might not be another game available. You might be just a straight up guy who wants to play the structure straight up. Posting a game on the board then changing it when people sit down can be looked at as a potentially sketchy process.

The pros will say they are doing because it's "fun" but that's usually b.s. they are doing it because they think their hourly rate goes up. That's a way to scam the recreational players into doubling the stake of the game. If they wanted to have fun, they could just straddle without demanding everybody else do it like normal games where a straddle is optional.

I've never seen one of these free roll situations where the pros are not complaining nonstop about the one or 2 guys at the table that exercised their choice not to do a straddle 100% of the time. You could do it 90 or 99% of the time but the time you missed they won't STFU about it. Maybe you just missed because you took a break for a minute, or you decided not to do it one day because you were on tilt or your baby boy was in the emergency room.

Usually, the games where 1/2 the table or 1 or 2 or 3 guys are straddling have a better dynamic. If the entire table was doing it, and some guys are throwing out optional blind raises after the straddle or restraddles. People that put out the bare minimum are not action players. they are nits.

Sure, the mandatory straddle can work out pretty well if everybody is cool with it. It breaks down when there was bullying or a bad dynamic where they expect it 100% of the time but it's not posted on the board.

As a practical downside to not straddling, it can be very bad for your table image if you don't do it and everybody else is doing it. The TAG pros that are trying to double the stake of the game, have sometimes conned the fish into thinking you're a nit for not agreeing to double the stakes of the game. Or they now feel entitled to ask the whole table to do it if they do a straddle, where if it was a different venue, they would be ok straddling all the time without asking others to do it.

That is terrible. Sounds entitled.

Why should a player have to "suck it up" because he wants to play by the listed limits? If you want the game to play bigger then why not find a bigger game?

LOL at thinking that someone who wants to play by the posted limits is somehow being granted a "huge freeroll."

Degens gonna degen.

Not sure if you guys are serious, 8 players want to play bigger (casino dosent offer a bigger game). One guy dosent want to play bigger. 8 players have to "suffer" now.

Also not sure if you guys have realized how poker economy works, money has to come somewhere. If the action/reactional player wants to play bigger and is willing to pay for it, then usually thats how it is. You are also in customer service business. Its not ME ME ME at the poker table.

And it becomes a huge +ev spot if one guy dosent straddle and 8 do. Maybe one day you will get it.

Its not that easy for casino to just open a higher game for players since all the regulations (at least where I am playing).

Not sure if I got the initial post correct, but game was 5/5 and then straddle was 25? that is a big difference I agree. I am sure with communicating could have made the straddle 10 and everyone would have been happy.

Usually the game is 1/2 and for that night it was 5/5?
If most players want to play 1/2 then its easy to swap the game back to 1/2 in general, but something tells me most people want to play higher still.

Usually if someone dosent want to straddle its no issue. It becomes and issue if someone dosent want to straddle but always wants to get and edge in every other scenario aka MEMEME mindset. Then some people get frustrated. It all comes down to communication how you handle the situation (in that sense why you dont want to straddle). If you are humble and nice guy there has never been a drama.

If playing over the bankroll that would mean the initial stake might be too much already? Taking a shot at 2x times the stake shouldnt be an issue if you are properly rolled for a normal stakes. I think thats quite common for live poker to have straddles on. At least higher games than 1/3. When sitting on "higher" limit is always good to keep in mind that game might go even little bit bigger. If that is the issue then maybe you are not ready for it yet.