The Impending Death of Modern Capitalism
Let's make sure we're all on the same page on the definition of capitalism.
It's basically a system in which private owne
You are a human and are therefore expert in human qualities.
What you fail to represent is the human quality of humility and acknowledging what you don't know about other creatures.
Humility: another feature that animals don't don't evidence as having.
Other creatures have qualities which you don't comprehend because you don't live inside the body of those creatures. You don't have their sensory apparatus.
Birds can fly, people can't. Alligators can live under water, people can't. Animals like dogs and lions have olfactory capacity that humans don't. Bats and dolphins use echolocation that humans can't. Sea turtles live longer than humans.
Building airplanes so we can fly and building submarines so we can live under water: two more things that animals can't do. Animals are pretty much stuck; mankind can invent and progress.
Sure, elephants and sea turtles can live longer than people. But people can live longer and longer through invention. I doubt that sea turtles and chimpanzees are materially better off now than they were thousands of years ago.
By the way ... humans are not the only composers of music. Wake up in the morning and listen to the birds or the crickets in the evening. Listen to the howl of a wolf. The human voice is a musical instrument just like an animal's voice or vibration.
Animals can make beautiful sounds, but I'm not sure than constitutes composing music.
Chimpanzees have been trained to learn a rudimentary vocabulary. A parrot can be taught to recite human speech.
Right...a parrot can be taught BY PEOPLE to recite...but they still don't understand.
Chimpanzees can be trained BY PEOPLE to learn a rudimentary vocabulary. But they can't create such a vocabulary on their own.
In my opinion, all your examples are evidences of my position that there is a monumental difference between animals and people.
Most of the cells in a human body are not human cells. They are bacterial cells. The idea that humans can do anything whatsoever without our microbial teammates is egotistical. We are not separate from the rest of the animal kingdom .... we are an integrated part of an integrated system and you are obsessed with this immature notion of our separateness.
People can't do anything without air and water and plants and sunlight either. But none of those things are animals.
My basic principle (not in the sense that I invented it, which I ofc didn't) is: At some point a difference in DEGREE makes for a difference in KIND.
I see that when comparing mankind with animals.
Your mileage may vary. 😀
You're dodging the question .....
If you can't name a moral behavior which isn't rooted in survival imperative ..... then it's fair to conclude "morality" is just a synonym for whatever assists our survival as a group.
Yeah that conclusion doesn’t follow at all. You can’t conclude from my personal ability or inability to name a particular thing that it says anything about how the world actually is.
Also I would think that if I name something that would help our survival as a group that we would not consider moral, then that would also falsify your thesis.
If we consider the following case:
Let’s say a super-intelligent alien enslaves our species, torturing all of our members for their entire existence, but also simultaneously continues to breed as many of us as possible.
Would you consider this to be a moral act since it technically maximizes group survival? In fact it seems like if your thesis is true, we should be morally obligated to accept infinite and universal torture in order to guarantee the survival of our species. I would say most would not want this.
It's so obvious as to be self-evident.
How is it not obvious and self-evident to you that human beings will prioritize quality of life over maximizing low level survival?
Morality is about quality of life. It includes survival because of course you must survive in order to access higher life quality, but it’s NOT about maximizing survival. Self-evidently.
How is it not obvious and self-evident to you that human beings will prioritize quality of life over maximizing low level survival?
Morality is about quality of life. It includes survival because of course you must survive in order to access higher life quality, but it’s NOT about maximizing survival. Self-evidently.
People commit suicide because their quality of life is terrible (at least in the moment). People used to perform ritualized child sacrifice because they thought it would appease / bring favor (a higher quality of life) from their god(s).
Get it?
The larger point:
Human beings are not motivated by meaningless, low level survival over a long period of time. We will rebel against your future of economic austerity / environmentalism. It’s not viable.
The future will have to involve a vision that doesn’t seem possible. It will depend on miracles. Aim higher than what seems practical.
Counterintuitively, this will solve both the quality of life side and the survival side. Practicality, being measured, is actually the path toward destruction.
Yes I don’t think it can be said that survival is an intrinsic good. There are also problems (some people think) with maximizing quality of life, although you can bite the bullet or reformulate it slightly.
I would say the experience machine thought experiment gives people pause on that, because it seems like if you just want quality of life then hooking everyone up to a pleasure maximizing simulator would be morally justified even though people would be experiencing a “fake” reality.
Some people are happy enough to bit the bullet on this so it might not be a problem for everyone.
Yes I don’t think it can be said that survival is an intrinsic good. There are also problems (some people think) with maximizing quality of life, although you can bite the bullet or reformulate it slightly.I would say the experience machine thought experiment gives people pause on that, because it seems like if you just want quality of life then hooking everyone up to a pleasur
Meaning is an essential aspect of quality of life. Any pleasure which is divorced from meaning will lose its affect over time. Reality has been designed this way.
Meaning is an essential aspect of quality of life. Any pleasure which is divorced from meaning will lose its affect over time. Reality has been designed this way.
Sure but the things that give you meaning could easily be induced by the experience machine it seems like. Having a family, religious devotion, etc if that’s what you desired it could be reproduced by the machine.
Sure but the things that give you meaning could easily be induced by the experience machine it seems like. Having a family, religious devotion, etc if that’s what you desired it could be reproduced by the machine.
You seem to be claiming that ultimate reality is an experience machine.
What you don’t realize: navigating through the inner world which is hidden in darkness is a significant part of ultimate reality. This is an experience that an experience machine will never be able to replicate.
Meaning doesn’t stop with the common activities you listed. It takes you on a journey way beyond.
I’m sure you can captivate some hopeless and demoralized folks on such a machine, but fulfillment cannot be attained that way.
I think those two things are a pathway to misery if they don't include a lot of the important things that people get fulfillment. A person living in a dwelling that is afforded all of their survival needs will often need a bit more to find joy.
Parents are willing to risk and damage their survival to help make their kids feel loved and live happily. Astronauts train for a chance to explore other planets with no guarantee of coming back because purpose. Athletes and just general goal settings and accomplishments makes people happy.
Because some of the most depressed people on earth are the ones who have everything they need to survive but nothing worth surviving for.
I think those two things are a pathway to misery if they don't include a lot of the important things that people get fulfillment. A person living in a dwelling that is afforded all of their survival needs will often need a bit more to find joy.Parents are willing to risk and damage their survival to help make their kids feel loved and live happily. Astronauts train for a chan
I said the only things that matter are survival and expression.
Making your kids feel loved and happy is beneficial for their survival and an expression of love.
An astronaut going to explore another planet is trying to discover something which is beneficial for the survival of our species and is expressing their courage and exceptional fitness for the task.
Athletes are competing for physical dominance which pays well and a successful athlete will have preferential mating rights which is beneficial to their survival.
Everything we do is connected to survival instinct.
It's a reference to a good way of life. in this case also known as Thursday night
How do we make it about survival
In a related question. in the godfather (one). Does Michael survive?
Killing yourself with alcohol lowers the carbon footprint once you are dead.
I said the only things that matter are survival and expression.Making your kids feel loved and happy is beneficial for their survival and an expression of love. An astronaut going to explore another planet is trying to discover something which is beneficial for the survival of our species and is expressing their courage and exceptional fitness for the task.Athletes are competi
It may be a coincidental bonus but it isn't the reason that people go to the moon or punch each other in the middle of a ring
Can we get to the point where living the good life is subsidised because it's for the good of the species? And have a gym tax.
Maybe a governement paid for double scotch after every pint over 3 or 4 ?
It's a reference to a good way of life. in this case also known as Thursday night
How do we make it about survival
In a related question. in the godfather (one). Does Michael survive?
Alcohol is a means by which people release emotions which they are trained to not process in real time.
Let's say your boss at work does something that makes you angry but you can't express your anger because your need your job to pay the bills. You train yourself to smile and say yes sir or yes ma'am while inside you are pissed off at someone mistreaing you.
Where does that anger go ? We store in inside and vent it at a later date. Alcohol is anti-inhibitory and provides an escape valve for pent up emotions that will make us sick if we don't release them.
Ok so the 7pints and a vindaloo are actually medicine? I'll try that at my next doctors visit.
btw I think you're understating the importance of the vindaloo.
