AKo in BB, 50bb effective
Hi all,
I took the decision of jamming AKo from the BB, 9 handed, UTG opens to 2.1, everyone folds to SB who calls - SB covers and has a huge stack, I have around 60bb and UTG about 50bb.
This is a bounty tornament and the pay jump is super far away (we are already ITM). I am not a holdem player and i thought this is a good spot to either steal the pot and make 7bb or if i get called potentially double up and take a bounty.
Not to focus on the result, just to quickly mention. Ran into AA and lost.
The question: How do you play this spot? Is jamming really that bad? This is a low stakes tournament, people were opening KQo, T9s, it was not super tight. UTG was new at the table and had no info on him, but this was a bit of the general vibe.
I think calling is out of the question, i just let the SB in with 250bb and he can bluff me or hit some lucky hand. So obviously a raise is necessary. I think anything below 30bb is a trivial shove, but i think 50bb is a bit of a grey zone.
If I raise to 8 - 10bb and get shoved on, what do i do then? Just fold ? He could have a pair lower than KK and then given the money that i put in the pot, the bounty, I am making a -EV play if i fold to a jam.
I am also happy if i get confirmation that this was just bad luck. If he had QQ, JJ or such, I am fine with the variance. His bounty was larger than the next pay jump, which was thousands of players away.
Thanks!
8 Replies
If you're not a holdem player, bounty tourneys aren't a good place to start. They require a whole different way of thinking from regular tourneys.
The problem with shoving so much here is that you allow your opponents to play perfectly and fold all the hands you dominate, and call with the best of their range. I definitely like the squeeze here because you want to get heads-up with the stack you cover and hopefully push out the big stack in the SB, but UTG isn't going to call off 50bb with a hand like AQ/KQ. The other important element of PKO strategy is that you want to play pots with stacks you cover, not force them to fold. So I'd squeeze to a more normal size and take it from there.
If you're not a holdem player, bounty tourneys aren't a good place to start. They require a whole different way of thinking from regular tourneys. The problem with shoving so much here is that you allow your opponents to play perfectly and fold all the hands you dominate, and call with the best of their range. I definitely like the squeeze here because you want to get heads-up
Thanks! Good concepts to keep in mind.
He could open a bunch of stuff, so if I raise and he calls, it means he could have all those hands i dominate postflop and I take it from there. Jamming folds out his weaker hands and has me in bad shape against his premiums.
The only issue is how to get post flop. We agree a raise is necessary, perhaps not that big, but still, if he 4 bets my raise, what then? Fold? I am having a hard time understanding how to react to a potential 4 bet.
Because we are OOP and there was a caller I would jam <33 bb's here. But with effective stack 60 bb's I would 3-bet to 10 bb's to hopefully get it HU. Given how wide people are raising in this tournament you could take it down.1
Given UTG has 50 bb's and you have him covered once UTG 4 bet jams there is nothing you can do but call given its a bounty opportunity. It is rare that he would have AA and it has happened to me with AQ a few times and AK a couple of times. It is just a cooler. At least you are in the money.
Thanks! Good concepts to keep in mind.He could open a bunch of stuff, so if I raise and he calls, it means he could have all those hands i dominate postflop and I take it from there. Jamming folds out his weaker hands and has me in bad shape against his premiums.The only issue is how to get post flop. We agree a raise is necessary, perhaps not that big, but still, if he 4 bets
I would probably squeeze to something like 9bb and then fold to a 4b. An open and 4b from UTG is super strong. The other advantage of the standard 3b vs shoving is that it leaves you room to get away from the hand if he flats your 3b and then you whiff the flop.
For example, let's say you squeeze to 9bb, UTG calls, and SB folds. Flop comes J94. You can then go into x/fold or x/call mode, depending on whether and how much villain bets.
So, first off-- in a PKO, details like what your bounty is, especially relative to a starting bounty, is important. Specific stage of the tournament may be important too. And don't post results.
That said, for chip EV, we actually do have some shoves at this depth. It's mostly AK but we mix KK once in a while just so we're not predictable and it can't be profitable to automatically call us with a pair. We're past chip EV, though, and that's part of why the details of where we are are important.
Now, onto a couple of particular comments...
The problem with shoving so much here is that you allow your opponents to play perfectly and fold all the hands you dominate, and call with the best of their range.
i think this is incorrect in a PKO because it's less true than in a standard MTT. In a PKO you're gonna get more calls from hands like AQ hoping to flip. Even if they call TT+ / AK that's 3.5% of hands, which is like 20% of a conservative UTG opening range. Getting folds 80% of the time isn't bad. We cover UTG so I don't think UTG is calling light, but SB is so deep they might decide to be a hero and win a bounty (again, the size of your bounty matters here, because that affects how wide SB will gamble for it).
I think 3-bet/folding AK is pretty bad, particularly in a PKO where people are more inclined to get it in with you (and where we cover the UTG raiser). And a smaller 3-bet, against a wider PKO calling range, just sets you up to play a big pot OOP where 70% of the time you miss.
The stack size is pretty awkward for a jam, admittedly, but winning the pot is fine, and getting it in with AK vs. UTG is generally never that bad.
If you aren't comfortable jamming or think this is a spot in the tournament where you want to play lower variance, then just call and start piling in money when you hit TPTK on a safe flop (I mean obviously not like KQJ monotone where you don't have the ace of suit).
But again, don't post results. Because then the answer is "Your opponent has AA so just fold preflop."
I don't think shoving here is bad for the reasons nath mentions, and it does depend a lot on the value of your bounty. The larger your bounty, the more willing you should be to shove big hands because opponents will call lighter. But UTG's range should still be pretty strong here and he won't be calling light because Hero has him covered. So from his perspective, he should be playing it more like a regular MTT.
Admittedly, I could be a bit gun-shy in my response because I used to shove in spots like in spots like this and got tired of the variance. Which is also why I suggested avoiding PKOs as a new holdem player. They are more fun than regular MTTs, but also higher variance.
i think this is incorrect in a PKO because it's less true than in a standard MTT. In a PKO you're gonna get more calls from hands like AQ hoping to flip. Even if they call TT+ / AK that's 3.5% of hands, which is like 20% of a conservative UTG opening range. Getting folds 80% of the time isn't bad. We cover UTG so I don't think UTG is calling light, but SB is so deep they might
This kind of play is far more common in the early stages of PKOs, where people are much more likely to take flips to build stacks. But we're at a different stage of the tourney now, and shorter stacks have to shift to a different mindset. So UTG's calling-off range should be in line with chipEV.
Thank you all for the very helpful answers.
On the details: it is a 2 stage / 2-day tournament, and this is day 2 and everyone is ITM, with the min cash (where we currently are) being 2.2x the buy in. The prize for the next pay out is an extra buy-in, but is in 4.000 places. We are 5.000 out of 14.000 and next pay out is around position 9.900.
The bounty on the player in question is almost exactly a buy in.
