Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
Well, part of it is no one is acting as if all the reports of massacres are true. Probably because they aren’t true. The idea that Israel can be massacring people waiting in bread lines with tanks and machine guns every day for weeks and there is never a shred of real evidence is preposterous. Unfortunately western media playing along with Hamas propaganda like they are i
Why would IDF members lie about this and why would the Military Advocate General reject senior IDF commander claims of "nothing to see here" and call for a war crimes investigation?
Even the IDF doesn't deny shootings happened. The IDF's explanations themselves suggest they are shooting indiscriminately at people who are perhaps just trying to rush to food. Shooting starving people who are just trying to get in line early to get food is inhumane/immoral by any reasonable definition of the words. The IDF needs a better way to do crowd control and threat ass
They'd need to do more than sack them. Those who gave the orders would need to be brought to trial, and if convicted, throw away the key.
I doubt it's 50k civilians since Gaza health ministry claims about 50k killed total?
I'd be surprised if 20-30k Hamas fighters have been killed. 15k-20k maybe, and maybe fewer depending on exactly how you define combatants/Hamas.
They'd need to do more than sack them. Those who gave the orders would need to be brought to trial, and if convicted, throw away the key.
Sacking is just the start. I'd prefer IDF just straight up jail them.
Which equates to what exactly? 50k civilians killed or maybe 30 and 20k Hamas fighters?
Incredible how this guy constantly denies direct evidence of mass civilian slaughter, insights that every single media out let is unreliable, and then invents 20k Hamas "fighters" out of thin air with absolutely no shame whatsoever.
You're just getting started, my dude.
the fact that the Military Advocate general is calling for investigations into war crimes and rejecting the claims of IDF commanders, belies your claim of the Evil Genocidal Zionists, as if that were the case, you'd have no calls for an investigation, nor would Haaretz be allowed to publish such articles.
Think more broadly, you're still trying to relegate Operation Salted Fish to an inevitable excess of war that Israel will deal with because it's a functioning democracy.
Why did the soldiers receive such orders? For weeks on end?
The strategy is to make Gaza (and the WB) unlivable so the Palestinians will leave. It's more ethnic cleansing.
Think more broadly, you're still trying to relegate Operation Salted Fish to an inevitable excess of war that Israel will deal with because it's a functioning democracy.
Why did the soldiers receive such orders? For weeks on end?
The strategy is to make Gaza (and the WB) unlivable so the Palestinians will leave. It's more ethnic cleansing.
No, I already opined what should be done to those who engage in war crimes.
You don't know what the strategy is and I already condemned the concept of forcible removal ages ago itt and would consider such a thing as ethnic cleansing.
IDF is growing closer to the monster that some in this thread accuse it of being (although it still got a loooooonnnnnngggggg way to go before it's even comparable to Hamas/IRGC)
You brainwashed cretin, you see horror after horror after horror inflicted upon Palestinian citizens (including countless children) by IDF death squads, yet your mind is so totally captured that you found a way to essentially excuse the Empire of Death and the ways it can murder masses of people. Oh, my bad, you have reservations about the brutality involved in IDF child murder, good ****, thanks for being a sober-minded NatSec troop sucker, it's not like there aren't already millions and millions of those types hanging around.
You're either associated with the World's Foremost Terrorism Organization (the US military) or, pathetically, merely a big fan of it, I can't recall, but either way, stop sucking off the generals for a second and work on growing a soul.
well, I guess you can add the IDF soldiers themselves to the list of witnesseshttps://archive.md/wmomj unsurprisingly, their descriptions largely match up with what Palestinians have reported.
1-5 people per day vs the accusations of 50+ people per day.
So off by an order of magnitude?
Yes I do. Netanyahu, Ben-Gvir, and Trump are totally open about it.
1-5 people per day vs the accusations of 50+ people per day.
So off by an order of magnitude?
That was just one unit at one spot.
1-5 people per day vs the accusations of 50+ people per day.
So off by an order of magnitude?
No, I don't think it amounts to a claimed 50 every day, and the IDF witness was speaking only about his own impressions at his particular location, and the IDF don't bother to treat the casualties so they wouldn't have a very good idea of the number of fatalities they inflict. And it remains the case that IDF troops are now admitted to be under orders to fire on people assembling at aid collection points and are allowed a free-fire zone against Gazan civilians at those points except between certain times. This would appear to be a very serious war crime.
100,000 Dead: What We Know About Gaza's True Death Toll
The death toll in Gaza, as reported by the Palestinian Health Ministry, understates the true scale of the crisis, researchers say. Hunger, disease, and Israeli gunfire at food distribution centers have made the war in the Strip one of the bloodiest of the 21st century
On Monday of this week, Hamas' Health Ministry in the Gaza Strip published an updated list of those killed in the war, a 1,227-page chart, arranged from youngest to oldest. The Arabic-language document includes the deceased person's full name. . . .
Seems like Al Asqa Flood backfired. Oops.
Also hilarious how all Israeli sources are Hasbara except Haaretz. I wonder what’s up with that?
Seems like Al Asqa Flood backfired. Oops.
Also hilarious how all Israeli sources are Hasbara except Haaretz. I wonder what’s up with that?
Al Asqua Flood created this massive paradigm shift in the region. Given how much this has actually benefited Israel I do wonder if Bibi knew about and allowed the attack on Oct 7th. Obviously he did know. They have Mossad imbedded everywhere. No way they couldn't have known. He sacrificed 1200 for the greater good.
They have Mossad imbedded everywhere. No way they couldn't have known.
weird that they cant find the POWs
Al Asqua Flood created this massive paradigm shift in the region. Given how much this has actually benefited Israel I do wonder if Bibi knew about and allowed the attack on Oct 7th. Obviously he did know. They have Mossad imbedded everywhere. No way they couldn't have known. He sacrificed 1200 for the greater good.
It’s a bit questionable given the Israelis are 20 steps ahead of the Axis of Resistance. It’s pretty wild how Bibi was on the verge of being ousted due to corruption charges and then Iran/Hamas gave him a slam dunk alley oop by being such morons. Maybe Bibi and Khameni are in cahoots. Imagine how that would explode Victor’s mind.
Even the IDF doesn't deny shootings happened. The IDF's explanations themselves suggest they are shooting indiscriminately at people who are perhaps just trying to rush to food. Shooting starving people who are just trying to get in line early to get food is inhumane/immoral by any reasonable definition of the words. The IDF needs a better way to do crowd control and threat ass
Haaretz is a far left Israeli publication. It is Mother Jones, not NYT. I would be extremely skeptical they are giving a good faith explanation of what happened, especially given they have no video evidence and all their sources are anonymous.
It is surely true that Israeli troops use live fire as crowd control, and occasionally hit civilians. And the IDF should definitely be investigating this and providing punishment; and some serious investigation how it got to this point.
But I still have seen nothing to back up the claims that 50 civilians a day are being killed by mortars, tanks, sustained fire, etc. Which is the claim that I have been pushing back against.
Most Westerners live in a moral universe that was developed in an environment of 70 years of never having to fight a war on their home soil, or even worry about one.
And the Middle East (especially Israel) has been fighting wars all this time and lives in a very different moral universe. Israel is a ME nation and I acknowledge they engage in actions that would be considered morally against the pale by our sensibilities, but so do all the people they fight. And FWIW, I suspect the second our world became less safe and secure, our own Overton world of acceptable behavior in war would start shifting real fast.
We provide aid to Israel, but we also provide aid to everyone else, including the Palestinians. So I dont see the fact we provide aid to Israel as some reason to unilaterally judge their behavior. I think we should generally support Israel from a utilitarian viewpoint, as I suspect if we stopped doing so the wars they fight would be more violent and destructive, and A LOT more people would die; Arabs, Iranians and Israelis.
But if Bernie Sanders (or someone similar) was elected President and we cut off aid to Israel I wouldn't immolate myself over it. I would just expect things to get exponentially worse for everyone in the ME; and hope I am wrong.
Haaretz is a far left Israeli publication. It is Mother Jones, not NYT. I would be extremely skeptical they are giving a good faith explanation of what happened, especially given they have no video evidence and all their sources are anonymous. It is surely true that Israeli troops use live fire as crowd control, and occasionally hit civilians. And the IDF should definitely
You're kinda engaging in semantics here. Whether it's 50 or five or whatever, firing on unarmed civilians is a war crime either way you cut it. Haaretz may be lefty but I've never heard of them engaging in actual fake news before and from digging into things, they're considered reputable. Also sky news who are hardly leftist showed footage last night of civilians under attack while going for aid.
Most Westerners live in a moral universe that was developed in an environment of 70 years of never having to fight a war on their home soil, or even worry about one.And the Middle East (especially Israel) has been fighting wars all this time and lives in a very different moral universe. Israel is a ME nation and I acknowledge they engage in actions that would be considered mor
This is apologia, sorry. I'm well aware of the context in which Israel fight and am further aware of how Hamas hide among the populace. That's not the case here though. Firing on unarmed civilians is a war crime or crime against humanity and your justifications don't cut it.
What's your reason to think it is "unarmed civilians" and not Hamas operatives or Hamas adjacent people trying to disrupt aid lines that are destroying Hamas finances by cutting them off distribution?
What's your reason to think it is "unarmed civilians" and not Hamas operatives or Hamas adjacent people trying to disrupt aid lines that are destroying Hamas finances by cutting them off distribution?
The footage I saw on MSM had nobody armed. IDF soldiers are claiming they're unarmed civilians. The Military Advocate General ave called for investigations into war crimes. That's why.
What's your reason to think it is Hamas operatives or Hamas adjacent people trying to disrupt aid lines that are destroying Hamas finances?
