KK vs. tight loose passive fit fold players

PRE - go bigger.

FLOP - probably check, expecting someone to stab at it. Probably check-jamming. Probably never folding to jam.

Also fine to c-bet 1/3-2/3 pot, but at this stack depth it gets weird quickly. We have almost no maneuverability on future streets. I'd like to get it in now or on the turn. Easier to do that by check raising flop. If we c-bet and get called, we're kind of in no man's land on a lot of turns, such that a jam mostly gets called by 2P+ and good combo draws, and folds out all the TP and worse draws.

Preflop should be 25-30+ with 5 limpers

Flop, I don't get why you say you don't love this flop, its a great flop for you . You are stacking short stacks with Q, flush draws, and straight draws on this flop . The only hand you lose to is QT but you still have 30+% equity against that. I am either jamming straight out or check jamming, depending on how likely i think the flop is to get checked through.

FWIW, these guys raise to $7 pre, even with limpers. $15 is big to them. I wanted a caller -- granted, I didn't want four of them 😉

Respectfully, you may not be giving your opponents enough credit. Are they raising to 7 out of the SB, over 5 limps? When action gets to you, there's $13 in the pot already. When you make it $15, the BB is getting over 2:1. If BB calls, it starts a call train - UTG getting over 3:1, then 4:1, and so on.

If you make it $20 or $25, or more, the first and second callers should have some sort of hand.

Plus, it's 1/2. These guys didn't leave the house and drive over to this game to fold for $13 more, once they put $2 in. So what if they open to $7? That doesn't mean you have to. I'd be opening to $10 or more as my standard size, with my entire opening range.

What will happen is they'll get tired of my $hlt, and start playing back at me. Good. That's exactly what I want them to do, so I can stack them when I have AA/KK and LOL-fold when I have my usual garbage.

Are they likely to stab at this 5-ways, java? If so, you'll have best relative position, and villain SPRs ranging from 1 to 2.5. Start with a check, and then I imagine our sizing is going to be a jam. Utter disaster if this x's through though.

If they're not going to stab w/o 2P+, that almost makes me want to check even more, lol. I think someone will bet a Q or a T though, right? But if we don't think anyone will bet w/o a made hand, then start with betting 25 or so. Make them make a mistake drawing to the turn.

When, if ever, are we folding turn or river? Diamond comes off? Another Q or T?

Hello. Preflop you definetelly have to go bigger even if the players stacks are small. Considering the stacks of polayers, you kind of have to cbet call shove one player on the flop. Yes, you can lose to a set, but the ones who can shove over you can easily have Aq or flushdraw; might even have open ended straightdraw.
You just have to put it in. You cannot have 100% all the time in poker. Keep in mind this.
Good luck

Preflop is fine. A lot of people feel entitled to win the pot when dealt AA or KK. I want people in the pot. I agree with a check on the flop. Being up against a FD on the flop is rarer than commonly thought. Let's see if someone stabs at it. I want TP or SP feeling comfortable getting their stacks in. If you are beat, the SPR is too low to fold and it is just a cooler.

Thanks, everyone. Checking the flop is interesting. I honestly don't think they'd stab w/ worse than AQ, so maybe checking is a good play.

However, I bet $25, call, all in for $60 total (he had less than I thought), fold, fold, back to me. The guy who called had $60 left. At worst, the guy who went all-in has AQ, maybe KQ, but I block that pretty hard. Not as sure about the guy who called, but if he calls/shoves, he can beat AQ.

It was just a weird spot. Playing this type of shorties can be such a nightmare. Unfortunately, this is my player pool.

Also, my standard is $10 - $15, but as I said, $15 usually gets folds from limpers, and I wanted at least one caller. If I make it $20 - $25, the only callers are going to be AA/KK/QQ (actually, AA/KK will limp/shove). They will even fold AK. Maybe I should be happy winning $13 w/ KK at this table 😉

What will happen is they'll get tired of my $hlt, and start playing back at me. Good. That's exactly what I want them to do, so I can stack them when I have AA/KK and LOL-fold when I have my usual garbage.

This will never happen. I've been playing here for years and not one player has adjusted.

I mean... you're a winner in this game, where you know the pool better than we do. So maybe our advice is of limited value.

It's a weird situation because of the stack depth. I'd think the entire low stakes pool is going to be stabbing and stacking off with some hands that are worse than AQ, at least some of the time. And even if your guys aren't, AQ will still probably stab at it, your hand has equity to improve if they stab with 2P, and I doubt you're ever folding at this depth, so if you got out flopped, there just isn't much you can do.

(Please tell me folding was never an option you'd consider.)

So what line is best is probably a matter of minimal EV differences, and / or the result of some small nuance only you'd understand because you're sitting there playing against these guys, where you might pick up some tell, or whatever.

As to whether or not your opponents will ever adjust, my experience has been that the dynamic of any game can change given sufficient input. If a maniac sat down and started raising huge every hand, they'd adjust. It's just a matter of how far you have to push them before they change what they're doing.

So, at our next decision, it's 35 to call the AI (V1), and we have another player (V2) after who had an additional 60 left.

The following may be trivial for you but, like practicing scales in learning music, it's useful for me. The pot is currently 75 + 25 + 25 + 60. Or 185. Merely calling 35, w/o considering V2 later action, we need ~16%. Only if V1 exclusively has QQ/TT/66 do we not have that. Give them QT and we have 20.3. Seems really really tight. If both V1 and V2 have the above range, H is down to 15.8%.

H shoves, V2 calls. Adding another 60 + 60 makes 50 in the sidepot (35 to call the AI leaves 25 more for V2), 255 in the main. So, add 60 more to potentially win 305 total. H needs a hair under 20%.

We are told V2 must beat AQ for them to stick the rest in. You know your pool, Java, but no one is really sticking it in with a good draw, like Axdd, etc here? If V2's range really is just sets + QT, H has 15.8. Add AQs and it's now ~19.5 or so.

Me, I'll cheerfully shove and hope V2 calls with some some draw getting 4-1. If you think V2 might fold, but will shove for you if you merely call V1's AI, do that instead. We're just awfully short here to think of folding, IMHO, but again, you know your pool better than I do. I think your pf sizing was fine, FWIW. $#>* happens...

There is a maniac who plays occasionally, and my husband and I are the only ones who adjust. Seriously. It's incredible. This is one reason I so rarely post hands here -- I do know my player pool so well, and you guys probably can't "help" much, but it's still interesting to read opinions/advice to see what others would do and how they think about it. The math above is great. For instance, in this hand I probably should have checked the flop, although I don't know if it would have changed much.

Not saying I don't believe you. Just saying it's unbelievable that no one in the game adjusts no matter what.

I have a bad habit of being too cavalier about getting money in against short stacks at low stakes. Even if one or the other of these opponents had $200 to start the hand, I'm only folding if I'm extremely certain KK is never good, and even then, with all the possible run-outs that would give us the best hand, it would be an excruciatingly painful fold for me.

I also tend to make very rapid in-game adjustments to exploit opponents. I recently started playing in a home game that can get pretty wild. It starts out tame, with lots of loose-passive pre-flop action. As soon as I've opened for a raise more than two or three times, it's like a flood gate opens, and the rest of the table is out to get me with ATC. So, easy for me to sit here and suggest you start exploiting these guys, when it may not really be possible.

Not sure if any of that is all that relevant. Trying to say something useful - in a game such as you describe, if you bet the flop, you're getting called by AQ and better, and maybe occasionally something worse, depending on how short the stacks are, how late in the night it is and ready to go home people are, etc. If you check, I think AQ and some worse QX stabs at it, at least some of the time.

If we see this flop, and think to ourselves, "eff it, I'm never folding", then I think checking to check-jam or make a delayed c-bet on all (or at least almost all) turns is likely to be higher EV than just c-betting, if only because c-betting will probably fold out some hands worse than AQ which might otherwise stab at it, or call if you check and someone else stabs at it, because suddenly the pot is too big for them to fold QX, or their draws, or whatever.

And I guess there's the relevant part - I'm not folding KK here for $100 or $200. I'm just not. If stacks go in and someone either out-flopped me or out-draws me, I shake it off, re-load, and go back to doing what I was doing, which is just out-playing these hacks.

I called the all-in, and then, of course, the other guy goes all in. I know I'm toast, but can't fold now. Shorty has 66, and the other guy has TT. WTF?

It really is astounding. I try to post hands that are mildly interesting, but most are just so straightforward because these guys are just so predictable. At the end of every hand I'm like, duh, of course that's what they had.

Anyway, this is what I'm up against. The moral of the story, at least for me, is how important reads are and that following your gut is sometimes the best play -- someone posted that Doyle wrote something similar. I really need to start applying it!