(Cash game player) - How much would I need to learn to play well in a tournament?
I'm a regular $3/$5 NL Holdem cash game player, and win consistently. I've got probably 3000 lifetime hours under my belt.
I've played very few tournaments, and those were decades ago, in limit holdem.
I'm looking at the $1000 WSOP Seniors NL Holdem Championship in Las Vegas in about a month.
How much would I need to study in advance to be able to play decently in this event?
If I just show up without studying, do I have no chance to even finish in the money?
18 Replies
I would think if you're a strong winner at 3/5 you'll do well in a live 1k.
The seniors 1K is pretty soft.
I;'d still spend some time learning the key differences between short stacked play and deep cash.
As you get to the average 30BB stack, as inevitably happens, high card hands go up in value, speculative hands go down.
You'll want to use smaller opening sizes.
3! shoves are an integral part of tournament poker; knowing how to find these, and respond to them are important.
All that being said, if you just play your usual good poker for the first half of the tournament, you are probably a good sized favorite to have a good stack at that point.
Short version, the most important things to study are play at different stack depths and ICM.
For the OP's question, I would recommend just putting in a little time studying short stack push/fold and reshove strategies (including calling ranges). This stuff usually comes into play at some point in a tournament.
Then just remember that as you approach the money bubble and while you're in the money you will want to call a little tighter due to ICM.
You might not have an edge in your first tournament, but there's a lot of luck involved and you've got a chance. Good luck!
I'm leaning toward entering it. A trip to Vegas like this is a bucket list item for me.
It is worth playing in the WSOP Senior tournament because it is basically a very weak field every year. I have played in it the past 12 years (with the exception of 2020 of course). I have cashed about 30% of the tournaments I have entered.
You can re-enter once each day 1 so a max of 4 entries.
Here is why I play in it: I was playing in a tournament at Foxwoods about 13 years ago when a guy across from me said he wouldn't be playing in the WSOP Senior tournament ever again because there are really bad players and they always knock him out by making mistakes. The guy sitting next to him said yeah he wouldn't play in it again either for the same reason. I was sitting across the table from them and said "I wish I was 60 years old so I could go play this year". They laughed and told me I only had to be 50. So I decided to go.
The first year I played in it, there were no rebuys, the starting stack was 6000 chips (25/25 was the first blinds) and very few people raised preflop. Midway through day 1 I raised UTG. It was the third time I had done it at the table and I previously had shown AK/AA/AK. I had QQ this time. The guy next to me with slightly fewer chips jammed with 99. And of course a 9 came on the flop. The 2nd year I went I was down to like 30 blinds or so (maybe 25 I don't really remember). It went limp limp and I was in the HJ so I jammed with K8s. Folded to the SB (or BB I don't remember) who tank folded AJs. The original limper folded. The second limper said "I know you have a better hand than me but I can't fold". He had about 15 blinds maybe a little more. And his Q9s beat me.
So its not that the guys across the table from me were wrong. Its just that you have to be able to move on.
I did manage to finish 34 out of about 6,100 players one year. It was because 66 vs AQo held twice when I was all in. I was knocked out though by AJo when again I went all in with 66...
I would make sure to play in tournaments before you go to get used to it - especially the stack size strategy thing. Effective stack sizes become a very important thing. Understand that many players will be tight preflop unlike other tournaments. But there will be some loose aggro players at basically every table.
Good luck and I just hope you don't end up at my table (unless of course it is the final table)...
Here is why I play in it: I was playing in a tournament at Foxwoods about 13 years ago when a guy across from me said he wouldn't be playing in the WSOP Senior tournament ever again because there are really bad players and they always knock him out by making mistakes.
Haha, I love players like this. "I only want to play against good players who don't make mistakes! And then, uh... somehow I'll win???"
obviously that guy was just being a querulous overgrom baby but IMO the idea that playing with "fish" is "easier" is completely backwards
more exploitable competition-->more exotic assumptions-->more bold exploits-->more exertion required to think critically and more temerity needed to play some potentially really wacky strategies with very high risk/reward tradeoffs
computing nash is the easy part
Do you usually plan to play both flights if needed?
I was planning to just sign up for flight B, but am debating if I want to give it a full go and allow myself the full 4 entries.
A couple weeks ago the online structure sheet said it would be 11 levels on day 1, now the updated website says it will be 8 levels per day. I was worried about the 11 levels in 1 day previously. Most of my cash sessions are 4 hrs long. I've only played 10hrs plus once in the past 2 years, and it wasn't particularly rewarding since I went card dead and it was a losing session.
It is worth playing in the WSOP Senior tournament because it is basically a very weak field every year. I have played in it the past 12 years (with the exception of 2020 of course). I have cashed about 30% of the tournaments I have entered.You can re-enter once each day 1 so a max of 4 entries.Here is why I play in it: I was playing in a tournament at Foxwoods about 13 year
I try to play Day 1A first and then Day 1B if I didn't get to day 2. Last year I was unable to make it to Day 1A for medical reasons (my wife's not mine). I have played 4 day 1 entries one time I think.
On Day 1A I don't like to register late when I am knocked out because we start with 20,000 chips and I prefer to have a large stack. But if I am eliminated early (like in the first 4 levels) I will buy back in.
Just so you know each level is one hour long. In the WSOP Senior events there are 20 minute breaks every 2 hours and usually 75 minute break for dinner.
The way I remember it we start at 10am and end at about 11pm. So I think there will be 11 levels on Day 1 (Poker Atlas says that too but 10 levels on day 2 and 3). But Poker Atlas says 75 minute dinner break on days 2 and 60 minutes on day 3 & 4
I'm probably just going to start with Flight 1B for the Seniors event.
I haven't played a live tournament in decades, so for practice, I played in the daily tournment at my local cardroom today.
$200 NL Holdem, 20 minute levels. 65 entrants, and I finished 4th. The cards didn't run super hot for me, but they weren't bad. I arrived a little late, I think it was level 3 already, but I played a total of 5.75 hrs.
I will do some studying, but I feel ready to tackle the WSOP!
I'm probably just going to start with Flight 1B for the Seniors event.I haven't played a live tournament in decades, so for practice, I played in the daily tournment at my local cardroom today. $200 NL Holdem, 20 minute levels. 65 entrants, and I finished 4th. The cards didn't run super hot for me, but they weren't bad. I arrived a little late, I think it was level 3 already, b
The $1k seniors might very well be softer than a $200 daily. Good luck! Have fun and run pure!
I'm probably just going to start with Flight 1B for the Seniors event.I haven't played a live tournament in decades, so for practice, I played in the daily tournment at my local cardroom today. $200 NL Holdem, 20 minute levels. 65 entrants, and I finished 4th. The cards didn't run super hot for me, but they weren't bad. I arrived a little late, I think it was level 3 already, b
If you do come, I'd recommend playing 1A. If your bankroll can afford multiple bullets, you might as well give yourself maximum chance to find a bag.
If you do bag 1A, there'll be plenty of cash games around town at the $3/5 level for the intermediate day.
FWIW, I think the seniors is the one event that usually gets a bigger (and softer) 1A vs 1B, as us old people like a day off if we do make day 2; the 1B will be more 'pro' heavy and better players who do intend to fire maximum.
Ok, I think I've been talked into it. I'll fly in Sunday and play Flight 1A on Monday. If end up firing 4 bullets over two day 1s, $4000 will be the most I have ever lost playing poker. Thankfully my bank roll can handle it, but it will be tough to swallow.
I really love playing cash games, so any time I'm not in the tournament, hopefully I'll be playing a $3/$5 or $5/$10 NL.
Any recommendations on where I can find the best $5/$10 game?
If you do come, I'd recommend playing 1A. If your bankroll can afford multiple bullets, you might as well give yourself maximum chance to find a bag.If you do bag 1A, there'll be plenty of cash games around town at the $3/5 level for the intermediate day. FWIW, I think the seniors is the one event that usually gets a bigger (and softer) 1A vs 1B, as us old people like a day o
Ok, I think I've been talked into it. I'll fly in Sunday and play Flight 1A on Monday. If end up firing 4 bullets over two day 1s, $4000 will be the most I have ever lost playing poker. Thankfully my bank roll can handle it, but it will be tough to swallow.
Wrong attitude. You will not extract EV is that's on your mind--but you still may very will win. Ain't this game great?
Seniors $1000 NL Championship trip report
I played Day 1 Flight 1A and lasted into level 7. I busted out when I open shoved my 15BB stack in early position with JJ and got 3 bet shoved by QQ.
I fired another bullet into Flight 1B, and entered Day 2 with 30BB. I lasted into level 14 and shoved with 14BB in late position with JJ, but AQo in the SB called and knocked me out. I min-cashed for $2000 and broke even.
Cash games were fun, but I played way too many hours, and in the last hours I was way too tired and unfortunately didn't find a fold and paid off a young rec player when no over cards came on the board and I had QQ vs his KK. This was at the Horseshoe 3/5 NL where the games weren't great (mostly made up of a fairly skilled WSOP crowd). The cash games at Paris were also similarly so-so, but a bit better than the Horseshoe.
I spent one evening at Bellagio - the 1/3 NL was ridiculously soft. I mostly played 5/10 NL there and it was a mixture of sharks and vulnerable recs. I had a nice score in the 5/10 when someone 5-bet jammed his $2000 stack with TT vs my AA. Overall, I finished up $1500 for cash games, which was disappointing since I my last marathon 11 hr session at the Horseshoe cost me $2300.
Welcome to the tournament world...
Nothing 'wrong' with shoving JJ for 14/15 BBs, but as a default I tend to min raise/call it off from that stack. Sometimes you will find that you don't even want to call (I had a spot in the gladiator where I cold 3! JJ from UTG+1 and saw cold 4! and 5! behind me). This also allows you to min open with hands that you don't want to open shove, like AJo, ATs, KQ etc.
BTW, not sure if you saw it, but I also min cashed the seniors...with one chip! Yes, that was me who got to stand up when the floor asked who was the shortest stack at the bubble.
