AKs in a family pot
1-2 nl 400 max(technically) 8 handed
This is every poker players dream table. Loose players. maniac players. calling stations. Lots of action. Most pots went to showdown. Most pots were larger than $200, very frequently $400 + pots.
V1 Young Asian Guy. Limps alot. raises his strong hands. Saw him call all-in with AA in a three way monochrome pot chasing his flush. V1 won this $1200 pot and has been slowly losing since then. SB
H BB with about $400 is the smallest stack at the table. AsKs
V2 retiree white male. Talks about magic the gathering, pokemon, and refereeing at a golf tournament. Has bout $1000. Fairly new to the table, came from a previous table I believe a higher stakes PLO. He has been folding a lot. raised once with a premium hand. UTG. I think he is somewhere between a TAG and OMC.
Pre
Button Straddles to $5
V1 SB limps
H with AsKs takes it to $20
UTG calls
4 others call.
7 ways to flop $132 after rake
V2 cracked a joke. "oh no what did I start?"
Flop ($132) Ah Qs 6s
V1 checks
H bets $50
V2 takes sometime to think then calls.
folds around to V1 who calls.
Turn ($282) 4c
V1 checks
H bets $75
V2 snap calls this time.
V1 calls
River ($507) 10c
V1 checks
H?
16 Replies
I don't think you're beat, but I also don't want to shove, and I also don't want to bet/fold.
I think I check and call unless it goes bet, check/raise behind us.
Spr is 1/2 just ship it.
I think it’s too early to post a reveal. But I want to keep the discussion going.
OmahaDonk
Would you ship here? But with the V on my left as I had described him and with his delay call on the flop, most likely has a made hand. Possibly an Ace. With the River being a 10 what Aces do I beat? AJ is the only one I can think of. A9 and lower don’t seem strong enough for him. V on my right most likely on a draw so no worries from him.
Betting I can set my price. Checking gives V2 a green light if he’s strong. Check back if he’s weak.
Some people think my questions are arguments. This is not the case here. I’m just trying to learn and improve my game. I’m asking so I can get a better understanding of winning players thought process.
I don’t know if you’re suppose to do this. But I put V2 on AQ the whole way. My bet on the turn was to keep me in with my draw cheaply.
Without reads that people can fold preflop I would probably default to opening 25 at 1-2-5. $20 open over a limp is pretty much a limp but giving away information if anyone can use it, almost guaranteed to be going 4 ways to a flop.
Don't like the flop sizing into 6 people, esp. with this hand. Checking seems fine as does betting 20-25.
Could even see arguments for betting 100+.
Turn is basically a brick, and we got two callers on the flop and roughly 1 SPR ... shove seems good. Can also see arguments for random half pot with our hand, or super pro $125 maybe.
Maybe check is okay to induce something? Would much prefer that if both Vs were behind us, but even then SPR is low enough it seems weird.
75 seems not great, esp. after the flop bet size.
Seems pretty bad to not have all the money in the pot after flopping this monster, but now we're on the river with a half pot bet left and "only" TPTK 3 ways.
Folding seems insane, so betting less than all of it doesn't seem good from that point of view either.
Reads on V2 doesn't suggest he's going to bluff anything if we check, and doubtful if he bets thin.
Probably shove and get snap called by QTo or something.
OTTH
River (~510) H with about 250
V1 checks
H checks
V2 bets 125
V1 folds
H is not happy but can’t fold to these odds. Calls.
V2 shows AQ for 2 pair.
I don’t know how to feel about this. I wasn’t happy with how V2 played the hand. Why didn’t he raise? Was he afraid I had a set. Was he afraid that someone behind had bottom set? Then again he let me stay in cheaply to chase my draw. And the bet on the River could have been bigger. Was he targeting kings?
I’m hearing bet bigger and shove from a lot of people. But this would have cost me more money. Am I being results oriented here? Is the right thing to do most of the time to shove turn? AP what if V2 raises turn? Is it correct to fold?
1-2 nl 400 max(technically) 8 handedThis is every poker players dream table. Loose players. maniac players. calling stations. Lots of action. Most pots went to showdown. Most pots were larger than $200, very frequently $400 + pots.V1 Young Asian Guy. Limps alot. raises his strong hands. Saw him call all-in with AA in a three way monochrome pot chasing his flush. V1 won this $12
Preflop is fine.
I c-Bet Flop much higher: 100 at least
As painted in such a game opp vs. A bunch of fish i like overbetting & blind ship any turn here as well.
Go shorty it‘s ya Birthday!
- they gonna call so much worse hands b/c they (now) have chips and can affort it ..
As played i shove river fo sho vs. V1 (asia guy right)
IMHO Their willingness to hero call is like slit eyes; its genetic 🤭
Had it today vs one ; i overship Flop (500 into 300) with TPGK ; asia guy calls with FD
This thread is all but dead. But I’m not giving up yet.
Ty for everyone who replied to the OP. But I’m afraid that I didn’t explain things well enough. The table had 5 action players and 3 standard tight players. V2 the winner of the hand was probably best described as a nit. A nit who I thought gave a timing tell on the flop.
What I’m trying to learn is is it correct to deviate based on these reads. Is a timing tell effective? Did I use it correctly in this situation? If the two remaining players were both the wild type. I would be happy to get it in here.
Thoughts?
The table had 5 action players and 3 standard tight players. V2 the winner of the hand was probably best described as a nit. A nit who I thought gave a timing tell on the flop. What I’m trying to learn is is it correct to deviate based on these reads. Is a timing tell effective? Did I use it correctly in this situation? If the two remaining players were both the wild type. I wo
If we knew V2's cards and how he'd respond to a bunch of different bet sizes (or checks), we'd play optimally losing the least and winning the most.
It's nice to think about how we can get closer to this goal, but achieving it is not possible.
If we can "just" see V2's cards then we might well play as you did or be even more passive, but even that is very difficult.
The "I knew he had AQ" read is difficult, esp. when he shows AQ on the river. Maybe you are correct 60%, but maybe you are only correct 30% of the time and this was one. There are also other questions, like:
What happens when the turn is a 2s and V snap folds?
What happens when V has JsTs and is always calling but never betting unless a flush hits? Or he was thinking of bluff raising flop, and/or would bluff turn if checked to?
What happens when V has AK and you are freerolling him?
What happens when V has A6s but is worried you have AQ and is thinking about folding?
Even for this one hand there are a lot of variables, and how to play close to "optimally" is going to be very difficult are impossible ... but your hand is a monster on the flop, so as you deviate from playing it as a monster you need a lot more of those variables to be on your side.
Think of it like when you see someone stack off 10x pot on the flop 3 ways with top pair or even an overpair, and it scoops on the river ... is that genius because they won the most, or spew because without all of the variables being aligned correctly they'll often be putting money in with 8% or less a lot.
I'm opening to $35-$40 in a game as you described, lots of calling stations and you are probably going to be playing out of position.
Bet bigger on flop, probably would go bigger on turn too especially as played with the small flop bet.
By the river things have gotten really dicey and there's pretty much no way to know where your at. I don't think there's much value in betting what worse hands are calling you after you triple barreled into two players. Check and evaluate. If it goes bet and a call, can likely find a fold. Probably calling if it goes bet, fold unless you just have a very strong read on this player and enough volume to trust they won't do this with worse.
Why are we betting so small on turn on a wet board vs 2?
Just ship
As played on river just shove.
dangomango wrote
“Why are we betting so small on turn on a wet board vs 2?
Just ship
As played on river just shove.”
I thought I was behind. Nitty OMC (V2) gave what I thought was a timing tell. I didn’t want to check, this would give him the green light to go big. Betting small was meant to keep me in with my NFD.
Several posters have commented this was the wrong play. I’ve been replaying the hand in my head. Idk if it’s the right thing to narrow V2 range to just AQ. I saved about 120. What if V2 puts me all in? Can I find a fold? If my money is getting in anyways should I be the one to shove first?
Maybe I’m being results oriented. And still a lil tilted after this downswing I’ve been on.
So several posters said I flopped a monster hand. My thinking at the time was “one pair hands haven’t been winning at this table? I need to improve” thoughts?
Do you know him well enough that he can't have AJ? AT or at least AT suited? (Obviously that gets there on the river but relevant for turn)
This wouldn't be a hand I'd stress out no matter what you did really. If you checked and he shoves river and your truly confident he's an omc then fold. An OMC could maybe have AK but many would likely be scared to shove river anyway. So you aren't beating anything at that point.
I'd investigate other hands for why your losing, there is certainly nothing horrible going on here.
Raising bigger pre also helps you avoid these 7 way flops where you are going to be guessing a lot because the ranges of the stations will be so wide.
dangomango wrote“Why are we betting so small on turn on a wet board vs 2?Just shipAs played on river just shove.”I thought I was behind. Nitty OMC (V2) gave what I thought was a timing tell. I didn’t want to check, this would give him the green light to go big. Betting small was meant to keep me in with my NFD.Several posters have commented this was the wrong play. I’ve been re
If you believe villain is OMC and might have a stronger range, we should just check/fold on the turn. And bet/fold river if turn was check thru. This is very weak and exploitable but it's ok vs super nitty/passive opponents.
As played river once checked, we are not check/calling, if you think his range is that strong.
So yea, I understand what you fear but betting twice then check/calling river isn't that good idea vs an OMC. I guess you beat random bluffs that miss.
Grunch:
PRE - raising is fine, but in a game like this I might just limp with AK, to not bloat the pot when we'll be OOP and probably multi-way.
FLOP - on ace-high flops I'm either checking or over-betting, and this hand would definitely be an over-bet. I'd probably make it around $150-$175.
TURN - as played on flop, I think it's safe to bet again. I'd probably bet small, but $75 into $282 seems too small. I'd probably bet around $140, like half pot.
RIVER - probably just check-evaluating. Either V could have 2P, and occasionally Broadway.
I think it’s too early to post a reveal. But I want to keep the discussion going.OmahaDonkWould you ship here? But with the V on my left as I had described him and with his delay call on the flop, most likely has a made hand. Possibly an Ace. With the River being a 10 what Aces do I beat? AJ is the only one I can think of. A9 and lower don’t seem strong enough for him. V on my
You can't really "bet to set my price" here, on the river, at this depth. There's really no bet size you can take that won't give you such good odds you'll feel you have to call if someone raises. You can't bet $100 into $500 and fold for $150 more.
If you're confident in your read / the timing tell you picked up, that V has 2P+, then just check turn. You don't need to bet to set your own price when he just flat calls the flop. He might check back to slow play. If he bets big, it's an easy fold. If he bets small, it's an easy call. If you bet small and he raises huge, it's pretty gross.
