Shall we just avoid all ambition to bluff raise river to get V off top top?
Hi everyone, I posted a thread a few weeks ago to discuss when we can /should defend our top pair top kicker; this thread is from the opposite perspective - shall we bluff raise the river to get V off his top top in SOME situations?
Hand 1
1/2. 8 players. Saturday evening. Main V came to the casino with a suit jacket. Villain's pf and post-flop sizing reveals too much info. Straight-forward loose-passive rec.
EP limped.
Main V opened 12 from mp (his premium hand sizing).
Hero saw A9cc on the CO and flat.
Limper called. 3-ways.
Flop (39)
Qh 9h 4c
Limper checked, Villain c-bet for 20, h called, limper folded.
Turn (79)
7c
Villain bet 35, h called.
River (149)
8h
Villain bet out the third time and now for 50, even though the most obvious draws all got there on the river.
There is a big assumption - I don't think villain plays his draws this way. He probably would size smaller on the turn if he had AKhh or AJhh, given how he played his draws consistently in the other pots.
Villain could be having AQ, KK, AA or even QQ. Apart from QQ, the others are merely one-pair hand though.
Shall we bluff raise the river (220 behind)?
Hand 2
1/2. Same session. 8 players. Villain is a young reg in his early 20s. He has lots of 'crazy' river bluffs himself, as long as he has the blocker, but pf is weird, in this session at least. We saw him flat ip (instead of squeeze) with AQo, and called a three-bet op. He did not 5-bet jam KK pf earlier on.
Effective stack 400.
PF - utg +1 opened 7, main villain raise from mp to 25.
Hero saw 8Tcc from bb and cold-called the 3-bet. Initial opener folded. Heads-up.
(I admit having 8Ts in the cold calling range is bad, but with my 10% VPIP rate this evening I wanted to battle this hand).
Flop (58) J76r
X, X.
Turn (58) 4. Rainbow rainbow. We picked up additional equity.
X, V bet 40.
Hero - check-raise? call? fold?
Hero chose to call.
River (138) A
Hero checked
V bet 100.
OK villain has 12 combos of AK, and just 3 combos of sets of jacks he might slow-play, KK & QQ are discounted for not c-betting the flop. Hero can have pocket jacks as well, and all the two pairs. Shall we have any ambition at all to check-jam this river? I mean, are there any c-r bluffs on this board with this river card?
Image wise, hero was told that I looked like I walked into the casino from a Chanel boutique, so my bluff should have a higher chance to get through.
On the other hand, the villain on Hand 2 is a bluffer himself. I am not keen on bluffing into a bluffer, particularly if his fold button is not verified.
Thanks in advance!
6 Replies
Grunch from title alone: Yes. Trying to get Vs to fold made hands is not where the money comes from in low stakes games. OK, off to read post now.
Three lines in we see V is a "Straight-forward loose-passive rec." Definitely not trying to get him to fold TP.
Six lines in and we flat what we think is the V's premium sizing with A9s. Unless we are super deep, don't do this.
AP, this is a very tempting river to bluff raise, but unless I have seen V fold value, I would not. The profile is just too "damn, I let you get there didn't I? Well, gotta see it. I call."
Hand 2 is very bad, and indicates tilt. When you find yourself cold-calling a 3-bet with a suited gapper because image, time to get up. AP, this is never a bluffing river. Your story would make no sense, and this is a V who is likely to pick up on that.
Grunch from title alone: Yes. Trying to get Vs to fold made hands is not where the money comes from in low stakes games. OK, off to read post now.Three lines in we see V is a "Straight-forward loose-passive rec." Definitely not trying to get him to fold TP.Six lines in and we flat what we think is the V's premium sizing with A9s. Unless we are super deep, don't do this.AP,
Agreed on the others, however on Hand 2, can we defend AK to a river check-jam as played if we were the pre-flop aggressor? I mean if I posted a thread from AK's perspective, I assume I would hear lots of 'easy fold'.
That's because we are better at folding than the population. Also, V doesn't have all combos of AK, given flop and turn action.
I think it's too ambitious at these stakes.
Hand 1 is your best option, but you'd better be ready to reload. If he's a thinking player -- or even your average slightly sticky player -- he's not folding much.
Hand 2 you rep nothing. It's just a fold pre, anyway, especially and 100% from BB. If you want to play this hand from BB, which you shouldn't, donk the flop or the turn.
Hand 1 is one of your best case scenarios. I'm not sure 220 is enough to get him off AQo. Also, the 2/3 river sizing(and betting $100 in a 1/2 game) in absolute size is a meaningful bet. Not very confident in getting a bet-bet-bet line from a fish to fold regardless of holding.
Hand 2, are you insane? What even is there to contemplate? Fold pre, but then fold turn.
Hand 1 is one of your best case scenarios. I'm not sure 220 is enough to get him off AQo. Also, the 2/3 river sizing(and betting $100 in a 1/2 game) in absolute size is a meaningful bet. Not very confident in getting a bet-bet-bet line from a fish to fold regardless of holding.
Hand 2, are you insane? What even is there to contemplate? Fold pre, but then fold turn.
I laughed when you asked 'are you insane?' - surely during hand 2 I wasn't.
For what's worth in hand 1 villain actually block bet the river for 1/3 sizing , so that's 50 in stead of 100. Another question that's lingering in my head is that when a player block bet the river, is he prepared to fold to a pot-size raise?
