how do private games not get in legal trouble

I have lived in large cities, and agree with everything Arcadian is saying. I asked a retired police at my job back then why they don’t bust the private games and he said “there are million dollar drug and trafficking operations, we don’t have time for 10k at a poker game.”

The setup is dope, most of the better ones I have seen in places I have lived are essentially budget versions of this.

Historically speaking, the only time I’ve seen these clean operations get shut down is if a spouse gets blindsided or fed up with losses and money disappearing. Then the cops show up to do their “due diligence.”

Also there have been games at upscale country clubs for years that plenty of money (and the other things) move around in that authorities could care less about.

I think it really comes down to running good with your client base. A sore loser with a bit of pull could really mess your life up. Or if a client gets audited and they investigate who these large wires are to/from. Or if you get robbed and now on the radar.

They definitely sometimes do get busted tho. To act like its not a nonzero chance is arrogant imo. The same scenario of a drug trafficking ring could be flipped around to argue some 3 letter agencies might prefer to investigate and bust the poker game w minimal risk of violence over the drug trafficking ring

Thanks for the kind words. And yeah, no expense was spared on the setup... here's the before and after:

It's definitely not non-zero... but yeah... very unlikely. There are greater liabilities, for sure. Gangs shaking you down, someone injuring themselves in the room, ABC (alcohol beverage control), fire, etc. are all more of a concern.

I think screening customers and developing solid personal relationships with them really alleviates a lot of risk. One of my clients being audited isn't really a fear (it's not against the law to pay someone for poker losses)... it would only be a red flag if it were a super obscene amount of money (we're not running big enough stakes for that scenario to occur). Someone doing something stupid like swatting the game, etc. would be a problem (but still wouldn't necessarilly put my in any legal jeopardy as they wouldn't have any evidence coming into the room of rake/drop). Cops are a secondary concern relative to the scenarios above.

But all equations break down at some point. Hypothetically, if I project that there's going to be a game-destroying liability .1% of the time... well, I've ran 1400+ games... so, I'm overdue. The way to counter that breakdown is by becoming more strict and vigilant the longer it runs. Then the .1% becomes a .02%, etc.

This isn't easy to do, obviously. Running a 5000-sq-ft underground game on Hollywood Blvd 3 nights a week with a 3pm start time is diabolical by almost any measure of sanity. But there is a way to do this smoothly that alleviates the bulk of the liabilities.

JRB and Robl are pretty well known people and the hosts have a good defense if they do get hit with federal charges for running illegal games.

I think given the common place of card clubs like TCH offering a membership fee and such, they might think its not worth it pursue them, and if you have a good defense then you can play your cards right.

If you are playing in these games, you are part of a pretty elite and private group, and im going to guess that it wont get audited unless there's like significant money being laundered or (not reporting taxes lol) or other crimes being committed such as drugs.

Anyone know how to get hired as a poker dealer at JRB's game?

Correct, most people that don’t come from the properly run underground poker scene overestimate the chances that law enforcement will get involved. TV, news, fictional stories keep enough people worried and make them want to be in a casino specifically. The police don’t want your $1.5k buy in, and they don’t ever want to look like idiots when they barge in and its no cash on site (bigger games on east coast run completely cashless).

I don't think people fear the police as much as many people don't play private games bc the perception is that it's easier to get cheated in private games then it is at a casino w a proper floorman, security, etc.

Not to mention the whole place could in theory get robbed at gun point while you're there

Postle showed us you can get cheated in a casino. These types of operations, like described by Arcadian have cameras and multiple electronically locked doors where a gunpoint robbery is very unlikely. Yes it may be their perception, only because they haven't been to the games that are ran properly.

I would also say that playing in TX was the safest I ever felt because everyone playing in the game had the hammer on them so robbery at gunpoint was absurd.

I've always been an entrepeneur and love your set up. My background is sports bars with pool, food, drinks and games. We often had all night pool games (after hours) where big money was being bet. The local cops knew and left us alone. But I had to build those good relationships over a period of time by keeping my place clean. No drugs, no drunks and no fights. I was often my own security and 99% of my customers respected me. Once or twice I got whacked pretty hard though (don't miss that). My only thought after reading this thread is that I wouldn't want all the publicity. IMO that can't be a good thing. Even when we had big games I would only let the player and his backer in the room. No spectators! A lot of times I was on my own in there, holding the money. I will leave the last part unspoken.

They could declare the rake as a donating after the games 😃
Or handle the salaries through a foundation. 😃
Donations have a different status in the tax game. In law it is just about knowing how to declare things and turning everything upsite down.
It is never about justice. The world is in commercial law. Everything can be negotiated.

You're WAY more likely to get cheated in a private game than in a public game. Of course, cheating happens in all forms of poker and at all locations but much more likely in a private game.

Sure you can get cheated in a casino. It's just far more likely in a home game.

It isn't even close. I can point to more than Postle cheating in casinos, but they are many orders of magnitude less than cheating in private games.

It's an EV calculation, like anything else in the world.
I can't possibly claim that my security setup is better than a casinos, however, is the increased liability outweighed by free drinks, private chef, free UFC pay per views, freeroll pool/ping pong tournaments, hot/cool servers, better dealers, and a much much much more fun/chiller vibe overall? in the case of my game, i'd say absolutely yes.

but truthfully, i'd say the answer to that question is an overwhelming "no" in regards to most of the games in this town. (they offer less, don't priortize security and are sketchy in general.)

just use good judgment... don't play in crappy games with sketchy hosts. the dirtbags in this scene wear it on their foreheads.

Everything you say is true, but don't miss the point that from a player perspective, security doesn't just mean being robbed by outside actors or other players. From a player perspective, security also means not getting robbed by the people running the game.

In a casino, I can be 99.9% sure that the casino is running a fair game. It is simply not worth risking their gaming license for the amount of money they could steal from the game. Yes, there may be shady dealers at a casino, but the casino itself is almost guaranteed to be running a clean game. If you see a shady dealer and bring it to the casinos attention they will investigate it (assuming you have legitimate fears and not just whining about your aces losing to kings). Casinos have too much to lose by running a crooked game.

Private games are different. What are the assurances that they are not setting secks or over raking pots or any other of a million different possible shenanigans that steal money from the players? Private games are not overseen by a gaming commission.

I think there is a sub .1% chance of a game being ran crooked for almost any stakes that aren't nosebleeds tbh. As a host, there's almost 0 upside to 'rigging' a game. I WANT my players to win... there isn't a better way to retain players than by having them win. I make significantly more from them coming to my game over the course of a month than I do rigging a game to take $1k off of them in a session (and risking that info leaking out and completely destroying what I've built over the course of a decade and jeopardizing a $360k lease).

Is someone more likely to spike a drink at a house party than a bar? Sure. Are you more likely to get ripped off buying a car privately than from a dealership? Sure. Are you more likely to get rugged in BTC than the stock market? Sure. But all of these can be worthwhile endeavors if you use decent judgment. Just pick your spots... you can tell who the scumbags are pretty easily (Hint: it's the guy hosting a topless game, in debt to half of his staff and running a $100 cap at a 5/5 table)

(you can defend against over-raking pots by simply watching the dealers).

i would go to arcadianskys place, it seems awesome

If a facility like this opened here in Ireland I would be a regular visitor. Pool, TV and poker oh and a bar, hell yeah.

A poker game getting busted is always collateral damage from some other issue. The three I’m aware of are:

1. Drug dealer got busted and tried to give up the game by telling the cops they’d find drugs on the players (they didn’t).

2. Game runner hiring an off duty sheriff’s deputy as security and the sheriff busting the game because “I’ve let you run this for twenty years but when you involved my deputy I didn’t have a choice because it would incriminate the department to let you continue.”

3. Whale’s wife can’t stop husband from playing but can call the cops.

I remember 15-20 years ago they started cracking down on games in NYC

1)after some idiot took a picture of Arod playing in a game and sold it to the newspapers. So now the cops looked bad and had to crack down.
2)someone got shot and killed in a robbery.

Back then there were places with lots of tables and reasonable rake/time but that all went away.

With the description of location: LA, Hollywood BLVD, large grocery store, 2nd story, and the picture below, it took me all of 5 minutes to find the site and confirm it with the windows below.

bet you think you did something real special, too.

what's the point of running a home game, then?

But seriously, you are obviously running a successful business and have no need for outside counsel, but looking at the pictures, hiring an interior decorator would do wonders. Like, getting rid of the ping pong table and adding some leather chairs, art on the walls, SOMETHING. Class the joint up.

Maybe your clientele would be happy simply with a bucket in the corner to piss in, poker degens aren't the most discerning individuals, afterall. But hey, maybe you have the number of members your satisfied with. Maybe they are satisfied. I'll go **** off now.

I’m fascinated how you can generate enough revenue to afford all the expenses being talked about in thread. You mentioned you run 3 days a week. I don’t understand how you could rake the game enough given the legal alternatives would be so much cheaper for the players to play at.

this is really extremely fine. we're moving in less than a month. (renovating now)

we run freeroll ping pong and pool tournaments ($0 entry)... it brings in 15+ guys every time we do it (usually 2-3 times a month).
My mindset with the non-poker activities is this: If you were to talk into a random sports bar full of 100 people and you asked everyone in the room "who wants to come play poker right now?", how many of them would raise their hands? Maybe 5? Less? If you were to ask, "who wants to drink for free, eat for free, watch a free UFC pay per view, play pool, ping pong, darts, cornhole, basketball etc...?"... probably like 90 of the dudes would raise their hands. Then, once they're in the room and they hear the chips shuffling, they'll find a way to sit. Our target audience is dudes who we BUILD into 'poker players' and get them in the room with the other stuff. Those types of players will come forever, aren't exposed to competitors, don't play elsewhere, and develop a personal connection to you. The gambling is hardly the pitch... just like it's not in vegas (it's buffets, shows, the hotel itself, etc... but they know when you hear the slot noises, you'll sit). The goal is just to get guys in the room... the rest figures itself out.

As far as the decor goes, the goal was to be 'rough' enough to feel like a home game basement, but sophisticated enough to give trustworthy and secure vibes.

have you ever played at The Commerce or Bike? They are absolutely miserable rooms.

(those alternatives are very very marginally cheaper btw. with significantly worse action and un-beatable structures. the $3/$5 is a $300 max buy in. so yeah, would you rather pay an extra $1/hand and have $7k on a table full of whales, or pay $1 less with $1.8k on a nitty table with no free drinks, food, etc. etc.?)

IF I raked (......) it would be the cheapest and fairest in town. The biggest restaurants on earth are selling $6 sandwiches. I'm volume-driven and super macro-minded when it comes to the general philosophies and business plan of the game. The more money that stays on the table, the more players win. The more players win, the more they come.