Ukraine-Russia War Take 2
Here is what the preliminary take on the Ukraine thread disappearing is:
The site was hit with a massive spam attack wher
I don't understand at all why Zelensky should leave: did international countries express distrust in him, did internal Ukrainian institutions express distrust, or did the people of Ukraine themselves No. So far, I know of one person who wants this and has stated it publicly. Suppose there is a new President, an interim government - what will that change Will there be peace on t
Trump kinda nailed it when he said Ukraine doesn't have any cards. They've lost. You know like chess when the game is still going but you can't escape checkmate? That's about where things stand at the moment.
Have you ever seen the police pursue a speeding getaway car? The more the police have to chase and the more they lose in the chase the more they are going to beat up the criminal and the worse things are going to go for him generally when they catch him. The more you make Russia play through the end game and lose more soldiers the worse it is going to be for Ukraine. Zelensky doesn't appear ready to face the fact of defeat. He's got this gullibility to him. He obviously is not a student of history or he would know what happens when you make deals with the U.S. He's a dreamer. How else do you become a comedian in Ukraine? All successful performers were once idiotic dreamers. The ones who become successful look like geniuses only in retrospect.
In my estimation Ukraine needs a rational leader who can work to wind down this catastrophe. This weird farcical thing where a guy who played a guy on TV who unexpectedly became president himself then becomes president has gone on long enough. The guy had no real experience. He's lost the war. He didn't pursue the agenda he ran on and it's been 5 years now. He's a comedian but he's spreading misery. It's time he exits stage left or right or whatever just GTFO so people can stop dying for nothing.
A lot of word saying nothing thx .
Btw the entire world is subvert by the U.S. except you , victor and Putin .
Don't forget everyone who could locate Ukraine on a map before 2022. You don't refute my claim that I have all the scholars then you try to paint me a totally on an island.
A better argument would be that I'm in an unholy alliance with the extreme Left and extreme Right. I want you guys to be better. And I don't think it is totally due to talent that you don't do well. I think it is that you are stepping into a very flawed position.
Long standing neutral countries bordering Russia decided last few years to join nato , with massive popular support , because they all dum as well -> being brainwashed by U.S. mediaÂ’s ?
Entire Europe as well
Yup makes sense Â….
I said you and those like you, Americans who go rabid for Ukraine, as if you've finally found your generations Hitlerian fixation point of evil in Putin, while simultaneously supporting a wholesale genocide of innocent people in Gaza, are the suckers. NATO membership itself is sweet. Even Russia tried to get into NATO. You get weapons and protection. It's like being in the mafia but it's legal (given international law is dead). Any country would be stupid not to want to be in that club. If you get gold star status you might even get an F-35.
Wanting NATO membership is totally different than believing in fairly tales about big bad Putin and his dreams of world domination, like Russia is just some guy and not a technologically sophisticated modern state acting from a vetted and accomplished locus of control. Look who we are sending compared to who they have. We are the rogue maniacs not Russia.
Ha yes I forgot , having North Korea being in support of the righteous Russia is a sure sign of confidence you are on the right side too .
It's a sad state of affairs when you could learn from North Korea how to be a better neighbor.
Ps: funny how you are so one sided against Israel while having the opposing view with Russia
You find consistency funny? Why? If I formed a political party I would call it the "Let People Be" party. Let the Gazans be. Let Russia be, and the ethnic Russians inside Ukraine be.
Probably send them to Serbia or shoot them on sight instead .
Much better ….
Russia doesnt have roving bands of violent thugs Shanghaiing people off the streets as they scream for their mother.
and I routinely compare Russia to the USA. thats not mean to be a positive comparison.
Enjoy the read victor …
Some passages :
Russia’s atrocities in Ukraine, rehearsed in Chechnya
Moscow’s invasion has echoes of the tactics it employed in conflicts in the North Caucasus, experts and survivors say.
In 1999, newly appointed Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin launched the second invasion of Chechnya – or, as he called it, an “anti-terrorist operation”.
For many Chechens, these years were a throwback to the dark ages.
And she was angry at average Russians, analysts and journalists who say they could not possibly imagine that Russian servicemen in Ukraine were capable of atrocities.
“And a million people [in Chechnya] who went through this hell sit and listen to Russians tearing their hair and saying, ‘Oh God, how did we allow this to happen,’” she said.
For years, propaganda demonising “radicals” and glorifying Russia’s “peacemaking” corroded hearts and minds – even among Chechens with firsthand experience of the wars.
“What I know from my Chechen friends is that they are in shock at how many people around [them] actually believe in this propaganda after everything they’ve lived through,” the advocate said.
Russia began replicating the pattern in Ukraine right after annexing Crimea in 2014 as the Kremlin began to vilify local Muslims.
On February 5, 2000, riot police from St Petersburg, Putin’s hometown, executed 56 civilians in the town of Novye Aldy.
“They just got in and shot dead whomever they wanted,” the advocate said.
Russian forces systematically “cleaned up” residential areas to detain, torture or kill disloyal locals and terrorise the survivors.
Those “clean-ups” still fill Maryam with dread.
“The war itself was not as horrible as the clean-ups,” she recalled.
For years, human rights groups documented the “clean-ups” and their consequences – and can now compare them with what happened in Ukraine.
historians will surely see patterns stretching across all of Putin’s wars, as well as other human rights disasters under his leadership,” Norwegian Helsinki Committee’s Dale said.
Press-ganging happens in Ukraine, and is documented. There is no beating around the bush there.
However, the claim that "Russia does not do this" is just hopeless gargling of Russian propaganda. Russian press-ganging is well documented, both for mobilizing recruits and for forcing people into signing and becoming contract soldiers so they can be sent to Ukraine.
Once you are a recruit in the Russian armed forces, there is also the systematic use of violence, blackmail, robbery and rape to force recruits into obedience. While technically unlawful, it is in practice an accepted occurrence. This practice is called "dedovshchina", and is also used to force recruits into signing and becoming contract soldiers.
Of course, the worst practices in Russia are weighted more heavily against non-Russian ethnicities, like Buryatians, Baskhirs, Tuvans, Nenets, Kalmyks etc. This falls into the regime's history of targeting the federations many non-Russian nationalities and ethnicities unfairly, with the goal likely being Russification of the federation.
Anti-Kermlin puppets don't seem to be working out for them though.
That being said, in all of Russia's neighbors where Russia is attempting to manipulate things and project influence millions of people are marching in the streets against it. It is pretty clear that if the choice is to be a pro-Russian or anti-Russian puppet, people overwhelmingly support the latter.
We should't lose sight of the fact how much being a Russian puppet actually sucks, and being aligned with the West is infinitely better (at least up to the point Russia invades and starts killing everyone for it).
In my estimation Ukraine needs a rational leader who can work to wind down this catastrophe.
they cant "unwind" this war because what russia is demanding is unacceptable to basically everyone in ukraine. if they were somehow forced agree to it most of the country would try to flee to the west
He didn't pursue the agenda he ran on and it's been 5 years now.
he did pursue it though. russia just decided ukraine shouldnt exist as an independent country anyway
At least the Serbian gulags aren’t as cold.
I don't think it has to be one or the other. Ukraine could be in a very good position by playing both sides economically but staying neutral militarily. But they are too corrupt to enact a strategy that benefits the country as a whole. They are run by neo Nazis and oligarchs and have a long history of being regarded as the most corrupt country in the world. That, not Russia, is the real root of the problem.
The more this drags on the more sovereignty they are going to lose. Russia will have the security guarantees it has won. What else it might take, which I wouldn't agree with anymore than I agree with cops beating the **** out of a suspect because they ran, is only going to increase if this drags out. The more Zelensky stays and acts truculent the more the outcome will take on the look of a puppet state. If I'm Russia, at a certain point if you don't sit down and talk about how to implement my security demands, I'm going to demand the heads of all Azov leadership and every other extreme neo Nazi militia in an effort to root out the source of the problem.
Maybe that's best? Otherwise what are these nuts going to do. They don't have to listen to Zelensky or anyone. They've got the weapons and they already pulled off a coup which kicked this whole thing off. Imagine if MAGA was the military and police force in the U.S. That's kinda the situation in Ukraine except they are far more extremist than MAGA and far more unified. Maybe this can't end until they end.
they cant "unwind" this war because what russia is demanding is unacceptable to basically everyone in ukraine. if they were somehow forced agree to it most of the country would try to flee to the west
For what it's worth polling indicates a majority of the public wants to end the war quickly (that means give in to Russia's terms). If you adjust for people who left or are facing death everyday on the front lines it's probably a much higher majority. All Russia wants is not to be faced with Ukraine being a NATO member. If Ukrainians lived in Ukraine in that state of affairs before they can keep living there. I mean what are saying here? Individuals on the street are like "ohhh I want my country to be in NATO so bad if we can't then I will uproot myself to a country that is in NATO" as they hug a stuffed bald eagle? This is a joke anyway because the U.S., after all this, is still like "yeah you've bled for it but you're still Eastern European trash we're not letting you in our club what were you thinking you poor suckers".
Oh yeah, also stop killing and oppressing ethnic Russians in your country. You have to do that or you can't feel at home? Then go somewhere, preferably straight to Hell.
he did pursue it though. russia just decided ukraine shouldnt exist as an independent country anyway
Well maybe my neighbor wants to point a working cannon at my house to express his independence. I don't know what I would I do, but he's not going to be doing that and I could give an f about his independence at that point. Independence or freedoms have limits. At a certain point if you take these concepts to their extremes you wind up with thinking that you should be allowed to murder someone because preventing your doing so impinges on your freedoms. Freedom is a balance between human entities it's not an absolute.
For what it's worth polling indicates a majority of the public wants to end the war quickly (that means give in to Russia's terms). If you adjust for people who left or are facing death everyday on the front lines it's probably a much higher majority. All Russia wants is not to be faced with Ukraine being a NATO member. If Ukrainians lived in Ukraine in that state of affairs be
none of this is about nato. you cant find any russian leadership saying this war is about nato membership. it's just something idiots in the west have made up
you need to move on from talking about nato already
Putin has always said that the goal is to eliminate Ukraine as a nation, because it shouldn't exist, and absorb it back into the Russian empire previously known as the USSR. It's nothing to do with NATO membership (which Ukraine was refused due to disputed borders anyway). If he succeeds, the Baltics are next. They are NATO members, so he will probably try to arrange pro-Russian coups. And he will keep doing this kind of thing until he dies or becomes incapable.
he will probably try to arrange pro-Russian coups
seems fine. or are coups only good when the USA does them?
I don't think it has to be one or the other. Ukraine could be in a very good position by playing both sides economically but staying neutral militarily. But they are too corrupt to enact a strategy that benefits the country as a whole. They are run by neo Nazis and oligarchs and have a long history of being regarded as the most corrupt country in the world. That, not Russia, is
Or how about the democratically elected president should continue to serve as President, due to Ukraine being under martial law, due to them being aggressively invaded, considering parliament voted for him to continue? That might work too.
ok wait. now hear me out. after Russia does a coup. then USA can coup that coup and get some ISIS guys in charge.
none of this is about nato. you cant find any russian leadership saying this war is about nato membership.
What world are you living in? I could get you hundred of quotes from Russian leadership, going back decades, centering NATO membership as a cause (the other being military attacks on ethnic Russians inside Ukraine which went on for years) but I know doing so would not rejoin you with reality. If you are just going to say things you feel you wished were true you should probably be banned from the forum for trolling. I don't know what you are even doing here.
What you asking is if Putin consider Ukraine pure Russian and “Ukrainian people” are just a myth ?
Yes he actually wrote about it .
For Putin , Ukraine always been more of a province of Russia then a country by itself .
Russian President Vladimir Putin has made several dubious historical arguments, most notably in his 5,000-word essay “On the historical unity of Russians and Ukrainians,” published on the Kremlin’s website in July 2021. In it, he elaborates on his assertion that Ukrainians and Russians are “one people” as a precursor to and defense of Ukraine’s invasion.
For instance, Putin claims that Ukraine didn’t exist as a separate state and had never been a nation. Instead, he argues, Ukrainian nationality was always an integral part of a triune nationality: Russian, Belorussian, and Ukrainian. Putin also writes that Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians share a common heritage—the heritage of a realm known as Kievan Rus (862–1242), which was a loose medieval political federation located in modern-day Belarus, Ukraine, and part of Russia.
Noting the large number of ethnic Russians in Ukraine, Putin compares "the formation of an ethnically pure Ukrainian state, aggressive towards Russia" to a use of weapons of mass destruction against Russians.[8]
Putin openly questions the legitimacy of Ukraine's contemporary borders, which are based on the Ukrainian SSR's 1954–1991 borders.[9] According to Putin, modern-day Ukraine occupies historically Russian lands,[9] and is an "anti-Russia project" created by external forces since the seventeenth century, and of administrative and political decisions made during the Soviet Union[5] (a BBC article traced the term "anti-Russia project" to some Russian conspiratorial writing of 2011–2013).[10] He also discusses the Russo-Ukrainian War, maintaining that "Kiev simply does not need Donbas".[11]
Putin places blame for the current crisis on foreign plots and anti-Russian conspiracies.[9] According to Putin, the decisions of the Ukrainian government are driven by a Western plot against Russia as well as by "followers of Bandera".[12]
Putin ends the lengthy essay by asserting Russia's role in modern Ukrainian affairs.
