1/3 Do we pot control turn vs aggro villain?
1/3 Home game
V is super aggro/spewy from this thread, played with her for a couple sessions already.
Hero has nitty/weaktight image.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/170/l...
Hero just played a hand vs villain.
HH
V in Co opens 15, Hero in BB flats.
flop K32ss, v bets 15, H x/c
Turn 4 xx
River 3s H tank check, V bets 75, Hero x/r to 300.
After hand, V complained how I check raised with air etc. I said why didn't you call if you think I had nothing, she said she has worse than nothing.
Effective stacks 600
Preflop
V in mp opens to 15, H in btn 3bets w/AJcc to 45. V flats.
Pot 94
Flop A94dd, V x, H cbets 35, V calls???
Pot 164
Turn 7, Vx Hero???
What's V range? I assume she would raise with draws/bluffs/monsters. So her range is capped?
So her range probably something like tt, Ax, 9x
Do we bet turn for value? Do we have 3 streets of value vs her?
Or just bet on river for value?
6 Replies
Grunch:
PRE - against aggro V's, I think we can 3B more polar. AJs is a little too in-between, and might work better as a flat call.
FLOP - c-bet seems fine. Might go a tad smaller if I think V is going to get OOL and start blasting off with flush draws. I could see checking back to let V start blasting off on the turn.
TURN - is the 7 another d or just a brick? Is the Ad on board, or it is Ax9d4d? The suit of the ace matters.
V's range - worse Ax, some 9x, diamond draws, maybe some combo draws with some SC's or S1G's, some PP's from 55 to 88, and some random air that is hoping you'll check turn so she can try to steal the pot on the river.
Occasionally maybe she shows up with TT/JJ that didn't 4B pre, or 2P+ that doesn't check-raise flop. Also maybe she shows up with AQ occasionally.
If the turn brings in the flush, I'd bet very small. If the 7 is just a brick, I'd check back, with plans to let V bet river. If the river is just a brick, I'm calling any bet around 1/2 pot, maybe even up to 2/3 pot, and if I think she's capable, up to a full pot bet.
If she checks on another diamond, I'm probably just checking back, especially if the Ad is not on board. I'd also be leery of any straight-completing cards. I don't want to go for thin value against an aggro V who is capable of check-raising river as a bluff when draws come in.
I bet again -- probably around half pot. She seems sticky enough. You have to be prepared to call a bet on most rivers, though.
Yeh I'd bet the turn again - vs someone who is sticky/calling down light you need to value bet thinner generally speaking and on this board she should have a lot of Ax/diamonds/maybe worse.
With us already having the Button, deep, and no other dead money in the pot / limpers to deny equity too, I think I might lean to a flat preflop. If it invites a blind along, whatever, our hand plays fine multiway.
SPR is like 5.5 and we have TPmehK (for a 3bet pot). Are we comfortable stacking off here? I wouldn't be, especially as the better with a nitty image. So with that in mind, plus against an aggrotard which I'm cool with inducing, I'd lean to checking back the flop.
As played, ditto thinking for the turn, so I'd check back now to prevent stacks from being in play, make sure I get to showdown, don't blow low equity hands out of the pot who could pay off a final river bet, still induce bluffs, etc.
The more aggrotard / barrely an image we have the more we could consider going for 3 bets perhaps even for stacks. But with an nitty image if we bet 3 times for stacks by the river and get called then we're ahead, like, never.
GcluelessNLnoobG
Grunch: PRE - against aggro V's, I think we can 3B more polar. AJs is a little too in-between, and might work better as a flat call.FLOP - c-bet seems fine. Might go a tad smaller if I think V is going to get OOL and start blasting off with flush draws. I could see checking back to let V start blasting off on the turn.TURN - is the 7 another d or just a brick? Is the Ad on boar
Pre ~ Polar? V has never ever folded to hero 3bet. Has 3betted her at least 10+ times already. V has only called in position or out of position.
In such cases we should go linear right? She opens quite wide, also I believe her bet sizes change according to her hand strength(15 for weaker hands/ 20+ for stronger hands)
Flop is Ad
Turn is a brick 7
Pre ~ Polar? V has never ever folded to hero 3bet. Has 3betted her at least 10+ times already. V has only called in position or out of position.
In such cases we should go linear right? She opens quite wide, also I believe her bet sizes change according to her hand strength(15 for weaker hands/ 20+ for stronger hands)
Flop is Ad
Turn is a brick 7
So, against an aggro V, I think we want to be more polar in our 3B's, so that we don't set up tough pre-flop decisions for ourselves when we get 4B while holding a hand like AJs. Our 3B'ing range should include hands that can continue to a 4B, or easily fold to a 4B, but not include hands that would prefer to see a flop with a higher SPR.
If my understanding is that she NEVER folds to a 3B, but also NEVER 4B's, then maybe we can adjust by opening up the 3B'ing range a bit to include hands like AJs.
However, I'm still not sure if we want to 3B rather than flat call with those sorts of hands. Because if she's never 4B'ing, then she can show up with better AX and some PP's, and we're going to have a hard time figuring out how to play a lot of flops. It sucks to be guessing what to do with a marginal value hand in a 3B pot with a low SPR.
Like, on ace-high flops, we'll have top pair, 3rd kicker, and can be out-kicked. On J-high flops, there will be a lot of straight-completing cards and over-cards on future streets. We don't really love making 2P when she could make a straight or flush, or she can have a set.
If my further understanding is that her raise sizing is indicative of her hand-strength, all the more reason to not raise her with hands like AJs. We'd like her to continue repping strong hands when we block those hands, and our hand is under-repped. If we just flat called pre, we could continue to bluff-catch with this hand.
I'm always a bit skeptical when someone here says a V always or never does something. I would think that she must have some 4B'ing range, and some range that raise-folds when you 3B.
Now knowing that the A on the flop was the Ad, she can't have top pair + a flush draw. But if she doesn't 4B with AK/AQ pre, and is continuing with a lot of AX combos, she could have aces up here, or just have us out-kicked.
Against most opponents, and if we had AK or AQ, I'd want to over-bet the turn, to charge all her flush draws. But with AJs, I think a better line is to check back to bluff-catch river, or bet small, and probably fold if she check-raises. Our hand really isn't strong enough to try to get three streets of value, and I think we want to give her some rope by checking back.
Going back to the flop, when the board is ace-high and two-tone, I think most low-stakes opponents are going to fast-play flopped sets and 2P, so I'd c-bet small, and proceed with caution if we get raised.
If she's aggro, I still think c-betting small is fine, because she'll probably raise her strong hands more, but also bluff more. Especially with a not-awesome AX combo like AJ, I want to start out with a small bet that will induce her to want to raise off AK/AQ and 2P+ on this wet board, and also maybe raise some draws.
When we c-bet small and she flat calls, I think we can rule out 2P+ on the flop. But she could have us out-kicked, and occasionally the 7 on the turn will make her a set or a weird 2P with a hand like A7 or 97. As much as we want to charge her flush draws by betting big, we're just value-owning ourselves when she has a better hand.
The problems we face on the turn trace their roots back to pre-flop. When we take the betting lead away from an aggro yet sticky V when we have a middling AX combo, we're forced to play a guessing game post-flop.
Because this V is "special", I don't want to take the betting lead away from her. I want to just play lots of pots with her when I'm in position and have hands that can either cooler her or comfortably bluff-catch. My 3B'ing range is going to be more polar, with hands that are very likely best pre, or can make sneaky-strong hands post.
I don't want to 3B with hands that are often going to end up making strong but dominated hands post-flop. I'd rather 3B her with 65s than AJs.