1/3 - Fed up V gets tired of my $hlt and goes aggro on me.
1/3, $100-$500 BI, 9 handed, 10% rake up to $5 with $2 promo drop.
Main V is a middle-aged Asian semi-reg semi-TAG. He likes to limp in with playable hands pre, rarely opens for a raise or 3B's, and will look to pile the money in when he has a hand post.
He definitely does not like having a LAG like me on his direct left, playing my entire range as raise or fold. He's already made a few semi-intelligible comments about it, and asked for a seat change, and a table change.
We're starting this hand about $1k eff.
OTTH...
Folds to V who limps in CO. Hero raises to $20 on BTN with Kc5c. Action folds around to V who calls.
FLOP ($40) - 5s3c3x - can't remember if it was rb or two spades on board. Just remember one club.
V x, hero $20, V calls.
TURN ($80) - 5s3c3x7c.
V donks $25, hero $75. V lets out a sound of being exasperated at hero's BS, and angrily calls.
RIVER ($230) - 5sc3cx7cKh.
V donks $350.
Hero?
I went pretty deep in the tank. This line looks insanely polar, but I had a hard time putting him on a strong value hand that plays this way, when I could have literally every boat and straight here, as well as kings up, when I'm opening from the BTN.
We block KK/55. I doubt he's limp-calling KK. Hard to think he's taking this line on the turn and river with 33 or 77, or finding his way here and taking this line with 75, 73, 53, or 64.
18 Replies
TURN ($80) - 5s3c3x7c.
V donks $25, hero $75. V lets out a sound of being exasperated at hero's BS, and angrily calls.
"And the award for the hammiest 'weak-is-strong' move this month at Parx goes to...middle-aged, Asian dude."
Why did you raise the turn?
I would fold river. If he is donk overbetting with a bluff, good for him. Hard to even think of bluffs here.
V lets out a sound of being exasperated at hero's BS, and angrily calls.
This is probably an act?
What hands donk turn then calls a raise then donk overbet river?
I guess 3x, 77 make some sense.
What bluffs does he have? The way he played, something like 76,66,88,44, 56, 54 type hands make some sense but not sure if he's capable of turning showdown value into a bluff on this river. River is literally a blank. Our range literally looks like overpairs or semibluffs/air up until the K came. We literally snap call with our value range if the bet was pot size or less.
In order for him to bluff this river, he needs to think you have to be FOS with your cbet and raise on the turn. Then expect you to fold any hand including any pocketpairs to this size bet.
Imho, he's just trying to get maximum value for his value hands.
Main V is a middle-aged Asian semi-reg semi-TAG. He likes to limp in with playable hands pre, rarely opens for a raise or 3B's, and will look to pile the money in when he has a hand post.
Trying to recall a hand I've played against this "type" where they've XC-BC-OB with a bluff and can't, so probably not even bothering to think about value v bluff combos. I always like it when a LAG stacks a TAG so I hope I'm wrong.
If he is overbetting the river on a paired board as a bluff, I would let him have it. You don't see much of that sort of play at 1/3. Plus his acting annoyed is a typical tell of strength. I doubt he was really annoyed and decided to show you with a big bluff.
Why did you raise the turn?
I would fold river. If he is donk overbetting with a bluff, good for him. Hard to even think of bluffs here.
We picked up the flush draw on the turn. He donk led $25 into $80, which seemed odd and weak to me, like he might be on some sort of draw, and was block betting to keep me from betting larger.
I couldn't think of a value hand he could have on the turn that would want to play this way. If he flopped trips or turned a straight or a boat, I thought he'd donk bigger, or go for a check raise. Even if I checked back turn, he could lead river.
I didn't want to just flat call a small donk and then possibly face a big river bet with only 2nd or even 3rd pair. I thought if he was on a draw, he'd call the raise, and then either give up on brick rivers, or blast off if he made his hand.
Since I had the Kc, I figured he might have something like A4cc or A2cc, a combo wheel draw with higher flush draw, or maybe he was just donk-stabbing with some middling pair, like 66 or 88, that needs protection. Maybe 44 or 66 that picks up the gut shot.
I understand you have a pair and flush draw on the turn, but I don't see what the raise accomplishes. You probably won't get him to fold a better made hand.
I understand you have a pair and flush draw on the turn, but I don't see what the raise accomplishes. You probably won't get him to fold a better made hand.
We can get him to fold out better draws, and some better hands, like 7x and 66. We also keep the betting lead, making it harder for him to bluff the river.
Consider what happens if we flat call the $25. It looks weak, like we're on a draw, or were just c-betting with a hand like AX that's hoping to improve. The pot will be $130 going to the river. What size is he likely to bet?
Odds are, if we flat call turn, he'll bet more than 1/2 pot ($65) on the river, and we'll have to decide if we want to bluff-catch with 2nd pair, which may be 3rd pair by then. Even if we improve to a backdoor flush, or spike a 5 to make middle boat, or a K to make kings up, V can put us in the blender with a big bet.
Raising to $75 on the turn will often buy us a free showdown when he checks river. If he bets river, he's not bluffing.
I actually really like my turn raise as a semi-bluff. It accomplishes a lot, for very little.
On the day when I left home to make my way in the world, my Daddy took me to one side. ‘Son, ’ my Daddy says to me, ‘I am sorry I am not able to bankroll you to a very large start, but not having the necessary lettuce to get you rolling, instead I’m going to stake you to some very valuable advice.
One of these days in your travels, a guy is going to show you a brand-new deck of cards on which the seal is not yet broken. Then this guy is going to offer to bet you that he can make the jack of spades jump out of this brand-new deck of cards and squirt cider in your ear. But, son, you do not accept this bet, because as sure as you stand there, you’re going to wind up with an ear full of cider.
We picked up the flush draw on the turn. He donk led $25 into $80, which seemed odd and weak to me, like he might be on some sort of draw, and was block betting to keep me from betting larger. I couldn't think of a value hand he could have on the turn that would want to play this way. If he flopped trips or turned a straight or a boat, I thought he'd donk bigger, or go for a ch
Check/call flop and then donk turn is a strong line in live low stakes IMO. This is the nit's version of a checkraise. You are correct that the sizing on the turn is suspiciously small, but I think that is just as likely to be Villain trying to induce his aggressive opponent.
I think the turn raise is really thin. He has some worse hands (54s, 56s) and a couple of draws (AXcc) but there aren't that many combos and you are crushing all of them right now. Villain also has many combos of value. What happens if he has 3X and 3bets turn? You probably just have to fold when you have a ton of equity, which sucks.
On this turn, you have a hand with good showdown value and some prospects of improving. This hand does not want to play a huge pot right now IMO. I also don't think trying to bluff this V off 66 or 88 makes sense on the turn here.
IMO this hand is a really comfortable call OTT. See the river, use position to get extra info on V's range, and evaluate what to do then. Keep the pot small and allow yourself room to make the correct play. It is a lot easier to Hero Call or Hero Raise in a small pot than it is in a big one. Villain is a lot more likely to bluff in a small pot and is also more likely to fold to a river raise than to a turn raise.
Check/call flop and then donk turn is a strong line in live low stakes IMO. This is the nit's version of a checkraise. You are correct that the sizing on the turn is suspiciously small, but I think that is just as likely to be Villain trying to induce his aggressive opponent. I think the turn raise is really thin. He has some worse hands (54s, 56s) and a couple of draws (AXcc)
The turn donk would seem less strange if it was bigger. Like, if he flopped trips and doesn't like the BDFD on the turn, he can just donk huge.
If he's got thick value and is trying to induce me to raise, awesome. It worked. Why's he not 3B'ing? If he 3B's, it's just an easy fold, because he's way more likely to have a boat than just trips when he takes that line. It looks exactly like he has a boat and was hoping to induce so he could 3B. It's a trivial fold at that point, knowing our flush draw is no good.
It's a marginal call on the turn, IMO. We probably don't beat any value, and our draw may not be good.
Absolutely. If he's bluffing, it's a fantastic bluff in an insane spot. I don't think he's bluffing.
Notice I didn't say I couldn't figure out what his value hands would be here. I said I couldn't figure out what value hands he has that want to take this line.
I can imagine what his bluffs would be, but they seem pretty unlikely - A4cc, A2cc, and maybe 66/44. He'd have to be VERY certain I didn't hit that K on the river, and that I'm going to fold out 88-QQ when he takes this line.
Assuming he has value, this is a really weird line. He could have check-called turn and check-raised river. I'd have barreled turn for 1/2 to 3/4 pot, and barreled off on most rivers. When he takes this line, he makes it super easy for me to get away from all my thin value, and avoid blasting off with my bluffs.
If he's frustrated with my aggressive tendencies, I'd expect him to get super-trappy, not super-aggro with thick value.
I ended up folding. V didn't show. After the hand he said he wanted me to call (duh), and thought I folded a straight (wait...wut?).
My best guess is he limped in with 77. I told him he should have check called the whole way, because I would have bet all three streets.
He moved to the other side of the table not long after, and changed tables not long after that, making a big production out of how he was leaving because I'm too good, or whatever.
I dunno. It seemed like a weird line for him to take with a boat. Assuming he wasn't bluffing, I guess he was pretty tilted from the previous hands we'd played, which I'd won, and was hoping to win back his money on this one.
i dont understand your turn raise.
id fold the river (misread the board the first time i read this post). you rep trips or set and he doesnt care.
and dont tap the tank by chiding.
yah you put in too much money in all of your hands
