2 hands - Overpairs facing shoves on the flop

Hand 1: Played fine; snap call. Too many draws to fold for less than 100bb.

Hand 2: Gross. Go bigger pre from OPP. I go at least $150. Not sure I could fold this, but we are only beating AK and diamonds / straight draw. With your read it might be an easy call, but I'd need a feel for him at the table.

H1: Your preflop and flop raises both seem too large, but both called preflop, so whatever...except for the fact that the hand began <60BB effective, and your nearly x4 flop raise means that you've now put in 1/2 the effective stack, only to face a shove by someone who "plays his value fast" on a flop that hits both blinds' ranges hard. I'm probably folding and hating myself for bloating the pot.

H2: With an SPR <2 and an overpair to the board, the only question is whether to snap call or take a moment before calling 😀

LOL. Two completely different answers.

H1: How is $15 too big pre in a 1/3 game? It's the norm in all the 1/3 games I play, although I guess $12 would be OK. However, SB calls too loose, so I like the $15. SB is a casual, rich player who thinks poker is an expensive hobby. He's there to gamble -- never folding.

H2: If I call, it's a giant sigh-call. What do you put him on? We have the Ad, so I doubt it's a flush draw, but could be. We do beat AK. I doubt he's doing this w/ QQ.

Betting x5 is generally fine at most 1-3 tables, but it's kind of chunky for a BTN open raise.

Oops, in the AA hand, I actually had AcAs (so NOT the Ad), my bad! Don't know how to edit the original post...

On the JJ hand -

$15 raise size is my standard RFI. But it is rarely folded through to the button w/out any limpers that this spot doesn't come up too often actually...

My stack is ~300 and the BB who donked $20 on the flop has me covered. The eff stack I wrote down is b/c the SB is the one who jams over my flop raise and he only has $163.

Hand 1 is an ugly spot. I don't hate folding because you are going to be dead here a lot, but I would probably call. The price is extremely good and Villain can have a lot of combo draws that might play this way (any nut flush draw, for example). Small chance Villain is overplaying a worse overpair too.

Hand 2 is a straight forward call. There is too much money in the pot to fold. Villain can shove here with AK and draws. You are getting the right price against something like KJs too.

Hand 1 I wouldn't raise flop especially that big but now you have to call and id expect to be dead some of the time.

Hand 2 snap call and expect to win sometimes.

H2 if you don't have the Ad it's much closer to a call, and I probably do call given his description.

Grunch:

H1 - I probably just call the 1/2 pot donk, not raise, on this board, where both opponents can have every set, 2P and straight combo coming out of the blinds. Once we raise to $75, SB jams, and BB folds, I don't see how we can fold for another $88 when there's about $300 in the pot, and SB could have a ton of draws.

H2 - When V opens to $25 and gets 3 calls, and we're only $525 eff to start, I'd make it $175, or just jam and pray V calls, thinking we've got AK or a worse PP than AA. If I think V is really steamed, I might make it $200, with plans to jam any flop.

As played pre, with the Ad in our hand, I think I'd just check from OOP on KdJd7c. He's going to bet AK/KQ, maybe QQ, and all the hands that beat us - KK, JJ, KJ, and 77.

But he might bet small with hands that have us beat, and his bet sizing might give us some indication of his hand strength. If he checks back, we can put in a chunky delayed c-bet on most turns.

When we bet and he jams, it's a pretty easy call, getting 3.5 to 1, especially if he seems tilted from having to fold during the last orbit, and since we 3B kind of small. He's going to have enough AK/KQ and QdQx in his range to make it profitable.

He probably would have 4B-jammed pre with KK, so he's got 3 combos of JJ and 3 combos of KJs that have us smoked, but he's got just as many combos of AK, and twice as many combos of KQ. Even if he has KJ, we have 8 outs to make a better 2P or a set, plus backdoor straight and flush outs.

If we lose to 2P or a set, it sucks, but that's poker. Next time 3B bigger.

ETA - just read the rest of the thread...In H1, I could see opening smaller from the BTN with no limpers involved, and either of the blinds on a short stack. H2, without the Ad in our hand, I might just jam from up front, hoping to fade a snap call.

Also, regarding the read on SB in H1 - if he flopped a big hand, and he fast plays his value, I'd expect him to donk at least some of the time, not go for a check-raise. A short-stack check-jam on such a wet board seems like something people do when they know they're never folding their draw, and just want to see as much money as possible go into the pot before they shove.

Thanks for the responses - here are the results:

1/3 - (8 handed)
Eff Stack: $163
Villain: SB, a middle aged, casual player who plays regularly, poker is an "expensive hobby" for him. Calls too lose PF, have seen him play his value fast, no other reads.

Hero has tight image, only raising pots when playing, been pretty card dead.

Hero OTB with: Jc Js

Pre-Flop: Hero RFI $15 otb, both blinds call

Flop: 2h 3d 4d ($40 in pot)

SB checks, BB donks 20, Hero raises to $75, SB c/r shoves all in for $163 (H covers), BB folds, Hero...

I appreciate the thoughts on whether to raise BB's donk bet into me. I agree the flop smashes the blinds ranges. In my experience 1/2 pot donk bets aren't particularly strong so I felt like raising and playing my vulnerable hand fast was the way to go. Not being HU though maybe complicates that - as evidenced by the c/r shove by the SB.

AND

1/3 - (8 handed)
$525 effective stacks
Villain: UTG+2 - Villain is MAAG, seems to be thinking player, but a little on the looser/active side. Has been raising pre a decent amount and fairly active overall, but nothing crazy. Have seen him donk/fold before, seemed a bit frustrated after folding some hands during the previous orbit.

Hero in SB with: Ac Ad

Pre-Flop: UTG limps, UTG+2 raises 25, 3 players call, Hero raises to $125 in SB, everyone folds but the pre-flop raiser who calls

Flop: Kd Jd 7c ($325 in pot)

Hero bets $150, Villain shove all-in for $400, Hero...

Sounds like my 3bet PF was on the small side. It's nice to hear that others agree that with how big the pot is there's not much to do but call even though I'm beat a decent amount of the time...

We never folding these hands with these stack to pot ratio.

Unless you know 100% they only have monsters then you can think about folding.

HH1:

At this effective stack I'm raising slightly more preflop to have that much more of a comfortable postflop stackoff at the SPR we'll be creating.

SPR is <= 4 (well, I am assuming we're not super deep with BB), we have a very vulnerable overpair, board is drawy, there are lots of worse hands that could call a shove at this shortstack depth that could think are best, etc. so I just shove here. As played, kinda hate facing this action from the SB but we committed ourselves both preflop and on the flop (which is fine) so just follow thru with the commitment plan and call, imo.

ETA: Knowing we are $300 deep with the donker, I would just flat the original donk as the SPR is too large against him / we offered him too good of IO preflop to want to commit with one pair.

HH2:

I'm fine with preflop.

The SPR is just over 1. If he outflopped us, nice hand. I actually might just shove this flop myself at this SPR, but whatever. Never in love with facing a shove to this action as we block AK and the diamond draw, but it is what it is at this SPR and we should never be considering a hero fold.

ETA: I like offering poor 8:1 IO when I'm going to setup commitment spots postflop. With already about $600 in play (due to stacks and dead money), this would mean raising to about $75 on top of the original $25. So even just making it $100 preflop offers fairly horrendous IO. $125 is more than fine, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG