2-5 deep with 66, and plans, on JJ54 ... but it's 7 ways

OP: did a flush draw develop on the turn? Thanks!

I think this is way too ambitious against an army of stations who likely expect you to bet overpairs on the flop.

I think I may bet this flop. Obviously not large. We need to clean out equity from a bunch of random overcards and play the turn against a smaller field or HU. We could possibly still have the best hand. We can call a single raise with our gutter.

lol ignore my post. I thought the board was 245 not the pot size

I’m just not battling here 7 way.

You're near-minclicking every V1 open that you choose to enter? That's one way to win friends and influence people... Why not 3X 3! instead of this sizing?

Doesn't your perceived 3! range UTG have some Jx in it? Besides JJ? Certainly Solver Guy's own 3! IP range has plenty of KJ, AJ etc, though maybe not at UTG1. 1/4 sounds apropos then, for reasons already stated in the thread. I take it the turn 4 didn't complete the fd.

SB looks like he has a mid-PP higher than 66, if not a J. Personally, I'm not willing to risk a lot of chips against an unknown on a hand which is pretty "meh" and not getting any better.

I think it's a cool idea to call flop planning to bluff rivers, but the problem is that there are still three players behind and any one of them could have 55, 44, or JX that trapped the flop and is looking to raise here. V5 may even just have the nuts himself when he puts a chunky bet in 7 ways.

I am not sure about pre... I don't know that I would be in such a rush to isolate one of the better players at the table with my middle strength hands (especially because it seems like you are never actually getting heads up) but I also play like a fish preflop, haha.

Not a fan of pre-flop. If you want to play 3bet or fold, just fold this hand. 3betting light doesn't make much sense when there are fish behind who are going to cold call in position. Sounds like V1 is someone who might find a light 4bet too, especially given your dynamic. Personally would flat pre-flop at what sounds like a weak table.

I like the flop and turn play. I agree that you can be good on this turn and that there are some potential bluffing opportunities. You also have 2 extremely clean outs if you're behind which will result in you winning a very big pot. Combine all that with the tiny bet sizing and calling makes sense to me.

I thought you were a good player based on what you write, so wtf are you doing in this hand?

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Grunch:

PRE - I'm guessing V7 limped from UTG, rather than straddling? If so, V1's open seems a tad small. And by extension, your $35 3B seems small, especially since this seems like a fairly loose and splashy table, and you're still in EP. Think I'd make it at least $45, if not $50, with all these clowns left to act behind me.

FLOP - range checking in this spot seems pretty standard. If I think the V's behind us are over-folding to c-bets and / or under-stabbing when action checks to them, I might c-bet small, like less than 1/3 pot.

TURN - I take it V1 in UTG1 folded following V5's bet?

V5's bet sizing is so small, I think we have to continue. If we think he's prone to over-bluffing, I might actually raise here, to put real pressure on the remaining V's to fold, since they'll be getting a really good price to continue by over-calling.

I would think a min-click should do the job, or maybe something just over a min-click, like $150. Doubtful V's 2 through 4 connected with the board in a big way when they all check back the flop.

I'd ask what V5 is supposed to be repping here? We beat 4x and 5x, and 76 (which we admittedly double-block), and 32, if he's getting involved that wide. How much Jx does he really have here, that doesn't donk the two-tone flop, and now decides to bet less than 1/6 pot?

I understand the thinking at play here - flat call this bet, hope V's 2 through 4 fold, and bet big if V5 checks river, but that's asking for a lot of things to happen in sequence.

I'd prefer to turn our hand into a bluff by raising now, to shut V2-V4 out. And if V5 folds, so be it, if we're denying equity from something stupid that catches a miracle river card to make a better hand.

In this position AJo/KJo/QJo aren't opens (well AJo is kind of borderline, and opens sometimes at 100bb-200bb but never at 400bb).

Reason to 3bet smaller is to have a slightly bigger range, and I've been super card dead for hours and completely missing a lot of the flops I've seen.

I did still think 66 was borderline, 88 is snap 3bet, 77 mostly, 55 almost never.

Can certainly understand the advice that we should just fold 66, might have been a mistake to not do that. Would rather pure 3bet 66 than call though.

No, was just the flop FD on the turn.

Ugh, my bad ... V7 == V1. No Limp, just V1 opened and then called after BB.
100% was 7 ways to the flop, and I was one.

I did very briefly consider betting 50-65 myself on the flop, but I thought I'd get too many speculative calls and would have little idea where I was at on a bunch of turns. Plus I'm mostly giving up with this hand a lot on flop and on a lot of turns, but 4x wasn't one of them.
Happy to check AA/KK/88- too ... maybe would want to bet with AK/AQ + NFD and QQ/TT (blockers and protection) but hopefully wouldn't.

Yeh, min. raising immediately might have been better.
I didn't want to raise bigger, and at the time I thought I wouldn't be raising AJs pure because V5 can have 55/44 and I pretty much don't.
Also not sure V5 ever bets this size with QJ, but it makes a lot more sense with 55/44.

I also didn't want to think for a long time, and my thought that with bet+call everyone behind is already mostly capped and would be almost as honest with this action as with bet+raise (possibly more honest vs. bet+call than bet+minraise).

Yeh, a few things have to go right for the call + river mergebluff to be good ... but I thought it was 80-90% that everyone would fold, due to high probability that someone bet something with Jx or 55 on the flop. And, again, I didn't think V5 would bet so small with a Jx so I'm only really worried about 6 combos. and I thought V5 would stab bet a lot more than he should and then be worried when I call.
Raise turn + bet big on the river looks a bit bluffier, but wins another 60ish, but call turn + bet big on the river looks a lot stronger.
Some chance someone behind checks back TT/99 on the flop and would lean call here but would fold vs. a minraise, but it's difficult to guess.
I wasn't sure what I do on the river if get an overcall ... def. not bluffing as much on the river.

Thoughts about river bluffing ranges: I fold most non-pair hands on the turn (not even sure I call KQs without the FD) and I'm not sure if this is one of the spots I should bluff NFD (or KQs) blocking missed flushes on the river.
Also at the time I thought it was better to have 66/77 call with a flush suit blocking more calls, but it's possible it's better to call without a flush suit for the 2% flush hits and I have basically the nut FH.

My idea at the time is that he's stabbing all pocket pairs (but obviously capped), A5s/A4s and all flush draws. Very possible some random stabs. with blockers in there too.

Very possible I'm not good, but what would you do differently... fold everywhere?

H has more NFD and wheel draws given preflop action. I suppose V has more Jx and mid-pairs with SDV.
So I'm very perplexed by V's sizing choice.

Yeah I just cannot see what V can lead the turn with here beyond Jx. He should just try to get a free card with his FDs (which are rarely nutted), his mid-pair SDV and his wheel draws oop.

Honestly, I feel like he has quad JJ and is just screwing with everyone here. Why make this ridiculous bet?

It's actually an interesting hand, with a lot to unpack and dissect. I'm not sure that confusing V1 and V7 makes any difference.

As for V's range - one of the challenges I frequently have with analyzing hands is that I get caught up thinking how I'd play this or that hand if I was V. If I'm V with a strong value hand, like 55, 44, or Jx, and the flop checks through, I'm absolutely going to bet the turn. The question is, what size?

Since he's the SB, and there are 6 opponents behind him, and it's a two-tone board, I think I would size up, because A) I want to get value for my hand, B) I expect my opponents to think I'm FOS when I lead out on a 4, on this board, C) I'm not convinced someone isn't slow-playing Jx, and / or D) someone has to have some sort of draw here, E) I'm not expecting to get multiple callers, even if I bet small, so we might as well size up and pray someone thinks we're getting out of line or just has a strong enough hand to want to continue, like 66-99 maybe, and F) we don't really want to give anyone with higher PP's a free card to make a better boat.

So, I'd bet the turn big if I had a boat. But maybe your V wouldn't. I dunno. The fact that he jammed AQ on KJ-whatever for 2x pot makes me think he's at least somewhat LAG-ish, like me, and thus more prone to big bets, both for value and with his bluffs. But he could be as transparent as betting big with bluffs and small with value. Again, I dunno.

The fact that you didn't c-bet the flop doesn't necessarily preclude you from having over-pairs to the board, nor cap your range. You 3B pre. How much Jx can you really have in your range, when there are two J's on board. I'd think we could credibly rep QQ+ and some AJs when the flop checks through, for whatever that's worth. The fact that you say you'd check AA/KK/88 supports you having some over-pairs in your range getting to the turn.

I think I'd want to raise in your spot for some of the same reasons I'd want to bet bigger if I was V, mainly that we don't really want to give the other V's a good price to come along and bink something on the river. There are plenty of hands to get value from, with both flush and straight draws available (though, again, we admittedly block some combos of 76).

Part of the problem with calling the turn is what happens when another V calls behind, and then V5 checks river on a brick, or perhaps bets again, for a small size, on an off-suit 3 or 2. We're blocking the upper end of the straight, and the flush draw bricked. Do we risk bluff-catching, with another opponent still to act behind us? What if the river is a 7 or 8?

Also, while you're saying it makes sense for V to take this size with 55/44, I'd say it makes as much, if not more sense with 5x or 4x that doesn't want to over-commit with just a weak 1P, at least with some V's. With this guy, I don't know. If he's 2x pot jamming with just one over and an inside straight draw, maybe he has air here, or he's open-ended, and just not sure he wants to bet too much on a two-tone board.

Lastly - in your spot, some of my decision would come down to the fact that V5 didn't 3B from the SB over the UTG1 open from V1, who you say is young and aggro. If UTG1 is LAG-ish, I'm going to be 3B'ing _A LOT_ more in the SB, with hands like small and medium pairs, especially when everyone and their idiot brother in law flat calls the initial raise from MP-LP. If I thought V5 in SB was likely to get after it when the LAG kid opens, because he's opening wide, I'd be discounting boats here, and thinking SB is just stabbing at it with any piece of the board.

As for the river bluffs, I think I'd be less concerned with our actual hand than the card that comes, and how it might interact with our range. Like, if it's an A/K/Q, or another J, can we rep AA/KK/QQ? If it's an offsuit 2, 3, 7 or 8, can we rep a straight, since we're double-blocking our opponents from having it?

Like I said, a lot to unpack. If we had 99/TT here, I'd be somewhat less concerned about calling the turn. With 66/77, our hand is more vulnerable, and I'd feel more pressure to narrow the field. Although, I think I might even raise with QQ+, for the same reasons - why give someone with a worse PP or a draw a cheap look at the river? If 66-TT wants to realize their equity, let them call a bigger bet.

Yes fold everywhere. Is 66 even an open if folded to you? It's borderline there already I thought let alone after a raise?

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