Raise TT, shorty all in on flop with player behind
10 handed 1/2 NLHE. Most of these guys are loose/passive and/or nitty. If they raise, it’s w/ only premium hands (JJ+, but almost always pairs; they often limp w/ AJ, AQ, AK), almost never 3bet unless it’s AA/KK, but will call w/ any two T or bigger, suited connectors / one gappers, any pp, etc., and they will chase draws.
V1 ($65) MAWG: When he’s short, he’ll chase anything, over-values top pair, etc.
V2 ($300) OWG: He seems to have a better understanding of the game than most, but he’s still tight pre and raises/3bets only premium pairs and maybe AKs, calls w/ two big cards, pp, suited connectors, and will chase draws, etc., but he’s not stupid about it.
Hero ($275) MAWW: The most aggressive player at the table. Probably seen as a little loose, but that’s not saying much at this table. I raise much wider than anyone, especially in position (not that they pay attention to position).
V1 limps from EP, another limp, I raise from CO to $15 w/ black TT, V2 on BTN calls, blinds fold, V1 calls, limper calls.
Flop ($55) 368dd, V1 shoves his remaining $50, limper folds, Hero? Do you flat or raise w/ V2 behind? (FWIW, I’m never folding vs. V1’s all in.)
12 Replies
Flat. You don’t need to raise to deny equity to overcards and your hand isn’t strong enough to raise for value.
I admit I may be bad in these spots. My gut reaction is to flat call. My thinking is that V1 almost always has a draw here, and even if V2 has two overs to our T's, he'll probably call with diamonds, so they'll be holding each other's outs, but he almost certainly folds to a raise if he doesn't have diamonds.
If you raise and V2 folds, we're just capping the size of the pot and hoping for a clean run-out. At least if we flat, and V2 comes along, we get another $50 into the pot with a hand that's probably best, against a V who isn't likely to start bluffing into a dry side pot.
Then again...maybe it does make some sense to raise, if V2 still calls, because that creates a side pot, and allows the action to continue on turn and river. It would be awesome to get one more street of value from over-cards to our T's.
I dunno. Maybe we're indifferent, with our hand, on this board, against this V. I suppose he may not 3B pre with JJ/QQ, or he could have a set, so there is a possibility we're beat already,
Thanks. Thought this might get a little more traction, but c'est la vie.
I decided to raise to get V2 to pay extra to see a turn. I honestly didn't want to flat, have him flat, and see a J+ or a diamond on the turn. He might call my raise w/ diamonds, too.
So, I raise to $130, and the unexpected happens: V2 shoves. Ugh. I sigh call hoping he has diamonds (and not JJ or QQ), and sure enough, he has AQdd. V1 had 85cc. LOL.
I hold.
Flatting was probably the better play, but if I flat and he raises/shoves, which I think he would have, I'd seriously be wondering what to do.
Although you hoped he had diamonds (which he did), his diamonds were a favourite over your hand. Your hand is very marginal and vulnerable and raise/calling is a pretty bad overplay.
The instinct to protect a vulnerable overpair on a wet/dynamic flop often can be justified in game but tends to lead to uncomfortable situations such as these. By flatting the donk/shove from a weak range, you have more options on the turn, even though you might not like it when BN checks behind on a brick. As well as shoving fd+overs BN would shove sets on the flop, so against his range you're not in great shape (plus you can potentially fold to a bet into a dry side-pot on a diamond turn or a repeat 8, for instance).
Seeing what happened next...it occurs to me the downside of raising here is that V2 will know with absolute certainty we have a strong hand that probably won't fold to his jam. If he's capable of thinking on this level, he'll realize he's not only drawing to the nuts, his hand blocks AA/QQ, and weights us towards 99-JJ.
If we're going to call off a jam from V2, I think I'd rather just re-jam when action is on us the first time. He probably still calls, but he might think we always have a set, or AA, and not all his outs are good, and he hates to call off two all ins with just a draw...
Yep, I was sick to see his hand and thought I was a goner 😉 For sure was not expecting the jam. I didn't really put him on a set, but it was possible. He could have had JJ/QQ, too -- although he's one of the few players who probably 3bets pre w/ QQ. I got lucky.
What if we flat the $50 and V2 raises/shoves, which I think he would do? Not sure I can continue, which would have been gross...
It wouldn’t have been that gross. Your hand is not that good! If you are up against a range comprised mostly of sets and high equity draws, you aren’t doing well to call off. Folding overpairs is a skill good players have and bad players don’t.
Flatting is fine to induce the call. Jam any non scare card turn except another 10 which I think we value bet another 25-50$ to look sneaky possibly improvise some acting as well and hopefully get jammed on.
@java - your OP said you're never folding vs V1's jam. I understand that's not the same as saying you always think you're good here, even if V2 re-jams, but I wonder if the way you framed the OP made us (or at least me) think that folding to a re-jam wasn't an option, because I honestly didn't even consider it.
Now that you've raised the idea of flatting and V2 jamming...
I think I still call, given your reads, because:
A - We don't necessarily need to assign V1 a range of XXdd for him to jam. He could be jamming any pair or a straight draw, allowing V2 to have more flush draws in his range. He could also have some XXdd, too.
B - Aside from over-cards with 2 diamonds, V2 really shouldn't connect with this flop very much, unless he flopped a set, which is hard to do. If both V's have XXdd, we've got a reasonably equity share of the pot.
Spots like this, where we're not sure what we want to do - I think the reason we're unsure is that we have an intuitive sense that the EV of each decision runs pretty close, such that call-call, raise-call and re-jam all seem fairly defensible, logically speaking.
Like, if I'm you, in this spot, and we call, and then V2 re-jams, I'm looking at the board, and just intuitively thinking that V2 is going to have way more flush draws with 2 overs than made hands. If we put some flush draws into V1's range, we're not doing terribly. Even knowing their exact hands, we're 32% to win, and being laid 1.87 to 1. But against V2 only, we're 45%-46%, so we're getting the correct odds to call off the rest when V2 jams.
