Flop bottom pair as PFR in multiway pot

I don't mind the preflop raise, although with this line-up, I'm not going to feel great if I flop an A.

Betting the flop is OK, but I would've bet $20 multiway on a flop that doesn't really hit anyone's range hard.

River stacks are kind of awkward, but against a duo who checked the river (after the turn checked through) and who likely are never checkraising as a bluff or with a worse 2-pair, I'd consider betting $50 and folding to a raise.

Pretty much agree with Always Fondling. Pre is OK depending on lineup/stacks. I like betting the flop, especially after two checks. I'd go $25-$30, but not biggie.

After they both check the turn, I bet about half pot -- again, this depends on player type. They are probably chasing something or have a small pair, which they should fold.

River as played is a bet/fold. They've come this far with their pair or whatever they have -- get a little more out of them or let them fold.

Opening this much pre and whiffing gets expensive.

Opening this much pre and getting raised gets expensive.

The raise size seems fine to me. What would you raise to? I always open to $12 - $15 in 1/3 games unless the table is playing very small. $15 is my standard. In 1/2, $12 is my standard.

I'm not sure what whiffing has to do with it? What if you had AK or AQ?

I agree w/ getting raised; player types from V would be nice.

I open to 10 at 1/3 (just to make the dealer's life easier) and 15 at 2/5, allows me to open wider, and encourages weaker calls.

Roger that on the bet sizing OTF if I do bet. I'm curious, though - if we are checking the flop, is the plan to fold to say a 1/2 pot bet by the BTN? Or if one of the blinds bets on a blank turn?

Interesting to be thinking about what kind of SPR is desirable with hand types and how many ppl are likely to go to the flop...I can see where limping can achieve that. Is it that enough to give up the benefits of having the betting lead, capping your range, and relying solely on making a good hand to win the pot...?

Thanks for these thoughts - curious about the c/f line OTF or folding to a turn bet.

My standard RFI from all positions in this 1/3 game is 15 + 5 per limper for the most part...sometimes I'll keep it at 25 even after 3 limpers. 15 isn't viewed at as particularly large in this game although folks will sometimes RFI to 6, 8, 10, 12.

I think at this stack size and at a typical LLSNL table (which usually sees 2x more raised pots than limped ones), I'd actually fold preflop. At a super passive donk filled table I could get behind an open limp (which I think is better than raising and reducing the SPR).

This multiway with no great backdoors to potentially barrel, I probably lean to a check on the flop. Also think our cbet is way too big.

Also checking back the turn.

Think we have to bet the river. But action has shown that it is very likely the best opponent hand is only Qx, plus it looks like our AK got there, so I'd probably size very small, like no more than 1/4 PSB of $40.

GcluelessNLnoobG

So, after spiking 2 pair on the river and getting checked to, I bet $75 into $159 thinking I had the best hand 90%+ of the time. I for sure would have folded to a c/r by either of these villains.

The loose/passive Villain in the SB said he was worried I had the flush and then pretty quickly called with 78o. He hit a gutshot straight on the turn and checked both the turn and the river.

I was perfectly fine value-owning myself in this hand after it checked to me.

I'll admit I didn't see the backdoor flush come in, and yes this is a standard MUBSy line from Villain. I still think we should bet the river but we went far too big. Could even go like super small to like $20 - $30 because we are targeting such poor hands (as TP is unlikely, although maybe we run into the occasional smaller middling two pear). We'll valuetown ourselves sometimes (which is ok), but the big sizing guarantees we'll valuetown ourselves far more often.

GcluelessNLnoobG

PRE - I won't be surprised if everyone here says you shouldn't open UTG with small suited aces, but if the table dynamics are right, I'll do it a fair bit.

If this table is truly tight and passive, I probably wouldn't do it, because we're just going to end up 2nd best way too often. I'd do it if the table was the typical loose-passive low-stakes BS.

The $15 open is my usual size at 1/3, so that seems fine to me.

FLOP - I mean, it's hard to make a pair, and our hand is unlikely to improve much. I don't mind a bet.

Not sure what size would be best. If we're just going to bet flop and give up and check back turn if we get called and we don't improve, I think a bigger bet is good. So, yeah, $35 seems okay, when we're only starting $300 eff.

TURN - I actually think I'd barrel here, for a large size.

We block 2P combos like 54, and there aren't many combos of 65s. Doubtful we'll run into 87s or 32s too often here. I think our opponents' ranges are going to be a lot of weak Qx combos, and some crap like 76s. If our opponents picked up a flush draw with some QXss combos, we definitely want to get value from those hands.

RIVER - I'd expect one or the other of our opponents to donk out with a flush here, so I'm not too worried about that. Hard to see what better 2P gets here this way, other than AQo or A6s. I guess those are possible at a tight-passive table.

As played, I'd probably bet $100, give or take. More if I think my table image sucks. Less if I think my opponents are more likely to be trapping because I'm such a LAGtard.

I might check this back if our opponents tend to be trappy, and flat pre with AQo, or will get sticky post with A6s.

If the river was just a brick, I'd be very likely to barrel off, expecting opponents to fold everything worse than KQ. I'd probably only give up and check back if the river put four to a straight on board, or was a K, Q, or J, likely making our opponents 2P or trips.

SB shouldn't be saying a goddam thing with the BB still in the hand.

No offense, but if SB is showing up here with 87o, he's not tight. Maybe the table is tight-passive, but he's loose-passive, if he's over-calling a UTG open with that hand, and calling a 70% flop c-bet next to act.

We can argue over opening A4s from UTG. I think it's fine, but I'm probably too LAG with my opening ranges. I think the open size is fine. I think your flop c-bet (as a semi-bluff) is fine, when only 1 of 3 opponents is left to act, and our hand benefits from some protection, and folding out better pairs.

I think the turn check back is debatable. I don't hate it, if we're expecting the blinds to defend pre and call flop with a lot of combos that make straights (not just 87s, but 87o, 73, 32, etc). But those hands should mostly be folding before the turn, so I'd be heavily discounting them here, and thus would prefer to barrel.

I doubt V checks the river just to fold to a bigger bet, but...if he said he was worried about the flush, and we did check back turn, a bigger bet might get him to fold.

It's not that we'd be betting big, hoping to fold out straights. We'd be betting for value, targeting QX and worse 2P that don't believe we'd go thin for value with aces up on a flush run-out. If V is bad enough to play a turned straight this way, AND play it as a check-fold on the river, that's just a bonus.

Hi GG - I've been reading your "clueless noob reaches 1000 hours" thread - so much good stuff in there, thank you for that! A couple questions here -

1) If we check the flop, is the plan to fold to 1/2 pot sized bet or more from the BTN? Or if it checks through and unimproved on the Turn, are we folding to a sb or bb bet at that point?

2) Can you explain what/why sizing you'd choose for the flop if we do choose to bet? Is it just small to get a better price on our semi-bluff?

Full disclosure: most hate my style, so continue at your own risk. 😀

In multiway pots, we should often be at least ~considering folding TPWK to any flop action; any other pair (with no draw obviously) is a trivial fold to pretty much any bet. And yes I would snap fold non top pair if SB or BB lead turn after flop checks thru. Multiway pots are protected from bluffs (including ours) and people rarely get too out-of-line in them, therefore we really need strong hands / draws to continue.

Basically, we should bet way smaller on the flop multiway with weak hands because no one is ever folding better (at least on the flop to a single bet) so all we're doing is charging ourselves way more to continue with the worst of it. My guess is that if there is one thing I've tweaked over the years that has allowed me to maintain the ~same winrate as the conditions (i.e. rake) constantly got worse is my cbet frequency and sizing (both greatly reduced).

GcluelessNLnooobG

The main issue I have with the hand is the flop. Your comment on the flop suggests that you may be overvaluing it; bottom pair 4-way is pretty much a pure bluff, and you have no backdoors at all. I would generally check here (you didn't open preflop with this hand hoping for it to go 4-way and then hit bottom pair, but c'est la vie) or bet really small.

Preflop is obviously fine 7 handed. By all means fold A2s, A3s, A6s, A7s here, but A4s is absolutely fine to open even for 5x.

I'd probably go smaller on the river targeting Qx (or Ax that somehow called the flop).

But that graph, tho Also, loved all your pre-game, manners, table selection, etc stuff. Those "soft skills" are so important, I've found. In poker and in life.

Thanks for taking the time to explain your thought process, that's very helpful reminder to frame multiway pots this way.

Love this position with two p I've found this strat to be extremely effective throw in a 5$ chip and hope for a greedy re-pop to 15 or 20$ and get your value. At the very least your going to grab an extra 10$. This has worked for me so many times.