Israel/Palestine thread

You can do whatever you want but in the current culture Jews criticizing Israel causes global antisemitism.

Maybe not causes but normalizes. Or allows it to happen

So I personally believe Jews are doing a disservice by doing it

I'm allowed to believe that

They rejected the two state solution. From the River to the Sea, remember? Here we are. It's not working for them. They could have peace tomorrow. They want their own state so much all they have to do is stop attacking Israel, recognise their existence and they can have a brighter future for their kids and grandkids. A future of self determination, free of the endless cycle of war. This is why I don't regard them as oppressed or colonised. Had the IRA been offered a United Ireland they'd have laid down their guns there and then. They certainly wouldn't have demanded that Britain cease to exist and be given to Ireland as part of Irish territory also. That would be just nutty and delusional. River to the Sea is textbook delusional and is never gonna happen.

They shouldn't pay for it. But some had to move. Big deal. Jews had to move from every middle east country and parts of Europe. That's life

The Palestinians have the right to exist. Millions of Palestinians exist in Jordan, in Egypt, in Israel.

The whole arab world sided with Hitler and rejected the two state solution. Started a war. Annexed land. Lost wars. And now want to go to accept the 1947 proposal. In 2024.

And nobody really believes they want to accept it. They would accept it, get statehood and then some Iran backed group would aim to conquer from River to sea

this is simply not reality but tell yourself whatever you want to try to justify the apartheid.

Jews never had to move from Palestine. again, I am not sure why the Palestinians are responsible for paying for crimes or possible crimes against Jews in Europe, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, or wherever from the last 2 centuries.

You said ethnonationalist with all its connotations, not me. I merely responded. I never said anything about "Jews" adopting anything. Some Jews are Zionist, some aren't. Are Germans subject to anti Germanism via attacks and murders? No, as well you know, there you go disregarding context again and making comparisons which don't hold up.

Mets is allowed to think whatever tf he wishes to. As a pro Israeli Jew, he's obviously going to be concerned at Israel facing existential threats, so his objections would stem from this concern. Your problem is that like vic, you tend to debate in an absolutist manner and throw context and nuance out the nearest window, which is about as useful wrt this conflict as titz on a bull.

Don't say never that's not true but I understand your point. But they had to move from almost every middle east nation

Israel has been a nation for 77 years

If your argument at this point is really that it should not exist then there is nothing to talk about

lol @ you "merely responded." You're obviously not being terribly honest here.

Sure. That doesn't make his views any less fascist or any less deserving of criticism. But he is allowed to think and speak this way (ironically, thanks to freedoms that are antithetical to his views).

By their rationale, Jews expelled from Iraq decades ago should be allowed to return and have their property given back to them and the new tenants can leave. Millions of Mexicans should be given property in Texas and California because their great great great grandparents owned it in the 19th century. That's not how the world works. The Irish didn't get the North back. We moved on with our lives. Not sure why the Palestinians have to be the apparent exception to the rule.

So they did accept the two state solution? Was this in Oslo by any chance?

Herein lies the issue just means not every Jew is a zionist, no matter how much he wishes it to be so

Not all Jews are Israelis, and I’d argue that it’s *that* messaging that conflates the two that is problematic and puts Jews outside Israel more at risk.

Okay fair enough. But Why should Zionist Jews the world over be held responsible for Israel's actions? They're not allowed to believe in Israel's right to exist? This started with you asking if Israel actions made the issue better or worse, so that's why I'm asking.

Depends on the definition of zionist

At this point, do you think the state of Israel should exist?

Non zionist Jews have paid consequences at college campuses as well. The protesters never ask for people's views on the war or on Israel. They just attack Jews

I responded to crossnerd. You responded to me and proactively used the word ethnonationalist insaid response. So yes, I merely responded to that.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
Not being dishonest at all.

Not sure anyone could take your criticism seriously, considering the words you bandy about and your absolutist style.

So might makes right.

I know this too, I'm just not sure why there should be a distinction- as you said they're attacking Jews for being Jews.

[QUOTE=chezlaw]The infections of antisemitism and islamophobia are an inevitable consequence of this horror show.[/QUOTE]

Correct. Islamophobia is also way up. The hatred between groups is only getting worse with this conflict.

I'm not an Israeli so of course not all Jews are israelis. I've said Jews should support a guaranteed safe homeland for Jews. They never had that and were persecuted for 2500 years

--I dont know how serious this is, but other than acting as a forward offense/defense of the IRI (which was Hezbollah's main function), one of Hezbollah's other main functions was propping up the Assad regime. It is widely believed without Hezbollah, Assad would have fallen a long time ago (for good or bad). So it will be interesting to see if Hezbollah being weakened like it has will have fallout in Syria.

Whether you like it or not, Israel is the Jewish homeland. Most people, especially most of Israel's enemies, view it this way; and there is nothing progressives can do to change this. Herzl won, whether you like it or not. And it is not productive to deny reality because it is inconvenient.

When the majority of people in the world believe something to be true, and their words and actions reflect this, at some point you just have to accept this is reality; and deal with that reality.

We know that all the Monotheistic religious histories are fairy tales. And there is no rationale reason that Jerusalem should be such an important flashpoint. But we still have to accept this is the case because it is irrationally important to so many people.

Both are bad but antisemitism has risen more

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0kjrr44mvdo

bbc

Religious hate crime at record high after Israel-Hamas conflict

Here's from England. In 12 months antisemitic crime has doubled, anti Islamic crime is up 13%

The US i can only find 2023 data I'm still lookin