folding top set at 1 2 against old guy, did i do the right thing
online player, first live session and second hand of the night. I have JdJh in SB, couple limpers in early positions, I bump it up to $10(too small?), old guy looks me up, other limpers fold and we go heads up to flop.
(~$26 pot) Flop comes Js4c2c, I bet $20 and he calls.
Turn comes 8c, I bet another $20, he doesn't think long and moves all in for $100+ or so. I tank for a while, ask him if he'll show if I fold. He shakes his head, I fold anyways and he shows anyways(will tell you what he had later)
My line of thinking for this fold, please correct me if any of this is wrong:
What hands do I beat that he's doing this with for value? 44 and 22 but those most certainly raise flop and are scared to jam on a flush completing turn. Maybe AA or KK with a club, but that 3! pre or raise flop. QQ with a club likely too thin to make this move. So what's he calling flop with? Probably not top pair, I block the shit out of it. Incredibly likely to be a flush draw. I'm not getting the odds to boat up, so it's just a fold. Good or too nitty?
21 Replies
Not sure if you should same bet the turn, which makes it look like what you have. The shove seems to be more a little more than pot. You are 23% with 10 outs against a flush. He can have a lower set or Ac with a draw and blocker, etc. So it seems like a pretty bad fold.
agree on turn play, probably should've check called.
i also agree this is a bad fold in a vacuum but this is an old guy at 1/2 we're talking about... are you sure he's playing any of those hands that way? I think raising flop with lower sets on a board like this is very standard for anyone and jamming them on the turn when the flush hits is probably something this particular type of opponent wouldn't do. And what single Ac combos do you think make it to this point and aren't AA? The only J left is a club so can't be AJ
Raise more preflop, like $15.
Whereas the flop bet might be too large. You block top pair and basically only invite flush draws to call.
On the turn I like checking or bet/call better than bet/fold but it does matter how much "$100+" is
Welcome to the forum.
Grunch:
PRE - yes, we should raise bigger in splashy live games with high rake. Whenever I see a younger player opening for a smaller size, I assume they're an online player who hasn't adjusted to live play yet.
FLOP - HU and OOP as the PFR, I'm mostly range checking flop, but with JJ on this board, I'd likely c-bet too. I'd probably use a smaller size, like 1/2 pot, with a plan to size way up on brick turns.
Older gents aren't likely to have many lower sets or 2P here, so his range is likely made up of 1P hands and un-paired high-cards that we'd like to catch up, and of course flush draws.
TURN - I'd just check when the FDFD gets there. As played, when he over-bet jams, it's a pretty easy fold. There's some slim chance he has 88 and we actually have the best hand, but he has way more combos of flush draws here, and few if any bluffs.
"Maybe AA or KK with a club, but that 3! pre or raise flop." - Welcome to live $1/$2. They absolutely are not always 3! with KK and not even always AA. They will also have a ton more offsuit trash than any online player above $2NL has. V easily has AcKx, Ac5x, Ac3x, 88, J8.
We're going to lose to the turned flush a lot, but I'm never folding. I'd have to know V really well and be very confident that he's only jamming nutted hands. Against the random $1/$2 player there's enough draws and BS to make the call worth it.
Keep in mind that if V has the nutflush, he probably isn't jamming. Some $1/$2 players will, but he really has no reason to push you off of Jx. He can always jam river. I'd expect AQcc to flat turn and then jam river more frequently than jam turn. So we can somewhat discount the AXcc combos.
Folding without a solid read is too nitty. And I don't have a problem with the turn bet. We still want to go for value. It isn't fun when V jams and we pay off a flush, but we're going to pay off a chunky bet anyway. We should make sure we get maximum value when we are ahead to offset when we're going to get coolered.
Young gun, young gun, not all old players are on this forum. I know the OMC image and kinda fit that category, but there are a lot of really bad old players.
It’s a world very different from online and you can’t go about leveling yourself overthinking. Understand right away - these people don’t think you.
Should list stack sizes, but this is shallow and the money should go in.
By you not yet revealing his hand makes me think he had you beat, but that doesn’t change the decision unless he shows you his hand before you act. You don’t want to fold many strong made hands in low limits.
OMC doing a little inside job i see
im not folding top set for 50 big blinds esp not against an unknown. you obviously do not have a flush when you bet this size on the turn so he could be doing this with a range of hands.
For the love of spades, diamonds, hearts and clubs STOP SAYING THIS!!It's horrible advice. It's a flat out terrible play with no reasonable justification whatsoever. Yet you insist on spewing it all over this forum as a recommendation. It's so bad. It's an epic loser of a play, hugely -EV, and defies every principle of winning poker. This is the epitome of weak-tight fishy play
You seem unclear on what "mostly" means. Might want to look it up so you can stop making an a$$ of yourself.
No! That's now how the english language works bud. You can't "mostly range check". That's like saying you're mostly pregnant or mostly handicapped. Either you are checking your whole range, or you're not. If you're only checking "most" of it, you're not "range checking". You're just checking a lot. (for bad reasons).
No! That's now how the english language works bud. You can't "mostly range check". That's like saying you're mostly pregnant or mostly handicapped. Either you are checking your whole range, or you're not. If you're only checking "most" of it, you're not "range checking". You're just checking a lot. (for bad reasons).
Ah. I see the problem here. You didn't realize that "mostly" in this context is a synonym for "usually".
Shite. I just realized you probably don't know what a synonym is. We're trapped in a vicious cycle powered by your tragic stupidity.
You can't fold getting close to 2-1 pot odds when you are 23% against a flush. After you showed weakness with the same bet, he could be shoving worse for value.
You can't fold because you are usually way behind. You have to consider how often you win if behind and the pot odds you are getting.
I just figured he has a flush near 100% of the time here, at least 90%. I'm not getting the odds to call if that's true.
Forgot to respond to this.
This isn't 100% reliable, but generally when someone says they'll show if we fold, it's often a bluff. If they say they won't, they usually have it.
The logic is that when they're bluffing they don't want to anger you by refusing to show. We're more likely to call out of spite. They want to keep it friendly, and let you know they'll satisfy your curiosity. Also sometimes they want to show the bluff when it gets through.
Conversely, when they have it they don't care about making you angry, and want you to satisfy your curiosity by calling. Depending on how the hand was played and what they have, they may not want you or others at the table to get additional info about how they're playing. This could come up if they were slow playing something or made a bad decision with a speculative hand and got very lucky.
A common exception to the above is when they have a hand that is strong but vulnerable to being out-drawn, like top set and straights on two-tone boards. They're more indifferent and don't mind if we fold, so they say they'll show.
Also an exception when they thought they were betting or raising for value, but then realize they don't have the best hand when we go into the tank. They say they'll show because now they want us to fold.
What it means when they speak or just shake their head varies by the opponent, but generally when they refuse to speak they usually have it, and when they speak they're more likely to be bluffing.
i also picked up on this and combined it with the fact that he went on his phone while i was tanking. this meant to me that he didn't care too much about my decision, result would be about the same no matter what I did. do you agree that this piece of info also leans toward strong?
i also picked up on this and combined it with the fact that he went on his phone while i was tanking. this meant to me that he didn't care too much about my decision, result would be about the same no matter what I did. do you agree that this piece of info also leans toward strong?
He got on his phone? Never seen that move.
I dunno. When I have it and my opponent is in the tank after I've bet, there's a certain point at which I just get tired of waiting and look for something to distract my attention. I've occasionally called the clock on an opponent when I think they're just going to end up folding.
If your guy got on his phone, yeah, I think we could read that as a "don't care what you do, just do it already' kind of tell, which is probably an indication of strength. If he was bluffing he wouldn't want to risk doing anything you might interpret as a tell.
Forgot to respond to this.
This isn't 100% reliable, but generally when someone says they'll show if we fold, it's often a bluff. If they say they won't, they usually have it.
The logic is that when they're bluffing they don't want to anger you by refusing to show. We're more likely to call out of spite. They want to keep it friendly, and let you know they'll satisfy your curiosity. Also sometimes they want to show the bluff when it gets through.
Conversely, when they have it they don't care about making you angry, and want you to satisfy your curiosity by calling. Depending on how the hand was played and what they have, they may not want you or others at the table to get additional info about how they're playing. This could come up if they were slow playing something or made a bad decision with a speculative hand and got very lucky.
A common exception to the above is when they have a hand that is strong but vulnerable to being out-drawn, like top set and straights on two-tone boards. They're more indifferent and don't mind if we fold, so they say they'll show.
What it means when they speak or just shake their head varies by the opponent, but generally when they refuse to speak they usually have it, and when they speak they're more likely to be bluffing.
ETA - admittedly, there's also the possibility that the old man was sandbagging a higher PP pre and on the flop, and now he's jamming turn because he's not liking the run-out. He may think he has the best hand when we go into the tank. I wouldn't hate on anyone for calling here, against this V type.
online player, first live session and second hand of the night. I have JdJh in SB, couple limpers in early positions, I bump it up to $10(too small), old guy looks me up, other limpers fold and we go heads up to flop. (~$26 pot) Flop comes Js4c2c, I bet $20 and he calls. Turn comes 8c, I bet another $20, he doesn't think long and moves all in for $100+ or s
he always has a flush here
you bet a meaningless amount preflop
you bet an even more meaningless amount of the turn
Yeah, preflop is too small. You can open raise to 10 at a lot of 1/2 tables.
I don't care if he "always" has a flush or there are tells he is strong. I am calling and want to see that flush. Even if he always has a flush, your expected additional loss by calling is so small with 10 outs and pot odds. After your weak turn bet, he may somehow not have a flush, so you are getting odds to call.
he rolled over AcQc
