Moderation Questions

No, not in that way at all.

I was definitely not everyone's taste. But believe it or not, some girls did find me interesting.

Originally Posted by Crossnerd
Sure, the same way that if I light your house on fire and then call the fire department I’m a protector of houses
No, not in that way at all.

--Actually, she is more or less right. That is how humanity has operated most of history. I am not making a value judgement, just saying this is how it has been. And although it is malleable, the hardware is definitely still there. I suspect the experiment of western liberalism is running its course, and human societies (if they survive at all) will look closer to something like Handmaids Tail or Fajullah under ISIS at some point in the future than western liberal democracies today.

But at the same time, women are programmed for this system too. When one tribe of males comes, kills all the competing males and their offspring; the women will accept the new reality and mate with the victors and have their offspring.

Fired up Dunyain sucks.

My original story was a dog story but I forgot about a man one.

Was walking with a female friend in Guatemala and there was this guy behind with a super demented serial killer look following us on a narrow street and I made an excuse to talk to the first Guatemalans I saw to ask them about buying firewood just so that guy would pass. So I potentially saved a woman (and myself) from a dangerous man. Guy really did just have a look about him that screamed danger. Looked like a white guy possibly eastern European so he could have just been really drunk or something too.

Sure, except I’m specifically talking about the claim that “Men (general) protect women (general)”, and how that doesn’t actually reflect any sort of reality that we live in. You know, the one where other conflicting statements are also true, like men are the leading cause of death of pregnant women and post-partum women.

I don't encounter a lot of women (or men) on the street who obviously are in imminent danger. (I'm sure that it is relatively frequent for me to pass a woman on the street who has been abused recently by a man behind closed doors, but for obvious reasons, that isn't the sort of situation where a passerby can easily intervene.)

Instances where I see a woman on the street who obviously feels threatened are relatively infrequent, but it happens occasionally. A lot of the time, they involve a person who is behaving erratically and who is obviously mentally ill. For example, many years ago my wife and son were on a city bus when an old man with obvious mental health issues got on the bus and starting waving an uncapped hypothermic needle around and talking about how nobody ****ed with him when he had the needle out. My son was quite young at the time and started crying. A younger man saw the scene, and intentionally stood up to block the man, which allowed my wife and son to exit the bus at the next stop without fear of being jabbed.

About a year ago, I saw a younger man with obviously mental health issues who just started screaming and harassing a young woman he didn't know on the street. Several people (men and women, including me) just sort of got between her and the crazy guy until he lost interest and wandered away.

In my experience, that's the sort of "intervention" you see most frequently on the street, at least where I live.

It is indisputably true that examples of men abusing women far outnumber examples of men preventing a man from abusing a woman. But that's in large part because most violence by men against women is behind closed doors.

If a woman was being physically abused in public by a man, I would expect to see a lot of people intervene (both men and women).

If you wanted to argue that, as a general matter, men don't care enough about violence by men against women that is outside their immediate line of sight, I would tend to agree with you.

Nothing new here. Crossnerd hates men.

This does not happen in some places and that is terrifying. Some places they join in.

The most upsetting example of abuse I've seen in public was a parent very aggressively beating a small child on the street in midtown Manhattan of all places. The cops arrived just a few seconds after I saw what was going on. I gave them a short statement and they told me that they had received dozens of 911 calls in the span of just a few minutes.

Sometimes direct intervention simply isn't a good idea. One time during COVID, my kids and I were riding our bikes when I saw a woman moving quickly away from a car. A man in his twenties or thirties was standing on the hood of the car, caving in the windshield of the car with a tire iron. In that case, I just called 911 and waited to make sure that the man didn't run off after the woman. I'm sure the fleeing woman felt physically threatened, but I obviously wasn't going to physically confront a guy with a tire iron, especially with my kids in tow.

Certainly sounds like a story I would never tell anyone. Ever.

Okay, but we’re really straying at this point. “Direct intervention isn’t always a good idea” is true, but this statement is distant from the actual discussion.

Circumstances obviously matter and multiple things can be true, including CN’s original thesis.

You guys get so wound up defending yourselves with “not all men” that you end up miles away from the starting point.

The story about the tire iron wasn't offered as a defense of men, nor was it an attempt to argue with CN. Conversations move off their starting points.

My wife could take any one of you wimps just fyi

Sure, it just seemed like an addendum to your preceding post which was nitpicking CN’s approach. “It’s true that ____, but if you had framed it as ____ I would agree with you,” feels like another way of saying I don’t agree with you.

If you were truly moving on to a different point, that’s fine I guess. It simply didn’t read that way.

I can run fast when I need to.

They can't help it. It's like the guys who hear anything about Trump grapjng women and children and HAVE to respond with whatabout bill clinton. It's programming.

Several guys itt are definitely in the manosphere propaganda pipeline.

I only mind it when the seemingly smart, respectable men also engage in the same sophistry. But I’ve learned that’s more a matter of managing my own expectations.

This is how it often comes across to me as well, fwiw. But I don’t want to argue about it because in general I like Rococo a lot

THIS!!!

If nothing else, this discussion has made me realize that I remember more weird incidents on the street than I thought I did.

In fairness to CN, it is virtually impossible to have a discussion about this sort of issue without talking about general group characteristics, even though characteristics among members necessarily vary. I'm sure she has made this point.

It’s not about “not all men” or whatever ******ed libfem slogan you want to throw around. It’s about her point being fundamentally wrong and immoral.

I think she hates terrible men (which, in fairness, is most of them). And for women, they can't know easily who the good ones are, so they have to mistrust all of them. So, it's both all and not all men - but, in practice, it has to be all men.

For instance, I have never once felt like Crossnerd hates me, but that comes from the fact that I don't identify with terrible men more than anything she's done or said. I just have a wife that I listen to and respect, and I teach children, including young girls, every day (newish to this, but I've now been teaching for a few years, just not full time until now) so I understand the sht they go through at the hands of awful men.