Why am I losing help please Thanks!!
I'm having trouble locating the leak. I feel like WWSF and WSD are all fine, but I am crushed by the rakes. The bb/100 when not seen showdown is -11, which is horrendous, but I don't understand how that's possible when my WWSF is fine. Could anyone help me? Thanks!
17 Replies
Can't tell you anything with this information.
Take this with grain of salt.
This is just from my observation years ago, I no longer play zoom nor have access to such game.
Back then the zoom player pool(10~25nl) is split into 3 player types. Fish, nit, aggrotard. (You can ignore all this if this is outdated or no longer applies)
Aggrotard wins from bluffing nits.
Nits win from going to valuetown vs fishes.
Aggrotard 3bet% and af super high and play every btn. Redline goes thru the roof.
Nits just play tight and wait for fishes to take the bait.
Imho, we can just play nitty vs fishes, aggro vs nits. Vs aggrotards oop we can trap with value or 4b or x/r flops w/air/draws.
Btw, 22/19 are ok stats for normal tables, but it's very high for zoom.
Position is everything in such game imho. Can steal lighter in btn, co and sb. But alot tighter in ep and mp.
Also it's hard to find leaks from stats alone. Try posting hand histories.
3bet more ip. Resteal more vs btn steals. Call less 3bets oop. Barrel more. Thin value more. Fight for more pots. These all can help boost your redline but maybe at the cost of your green line so balance is key.
Everything I mentioned is literally making you rewrite your whole poker plan. Find what positions you're leaking money with. If it's ep/mp then relook at your open range, cbet/turn barrel plans. If you're losing money in Btn then there's something wrong with your whole game plan in general.
Not sure if this is the case for you, sometimes we steal with super wide ranges that blinds are less willing to fold against cbets.
So maybe instead of cbetting all the time, try delay cbetting. Playing 2streets poker instead of 3.
Or maybe turn barrel more if we do cbet.
Ranges is everything, at the end of the day you gotta understand opponents ranges, your ranges.
Level 1 thinking, playing your own cards only.
Level 2 thinking, playing your opponents cards.
Level 3 thinking, knowing your opponents ranges and knowing what your opponent knows about your ranges.
To win, we only need to be 1 step ahead of your opponents thinking.
Ie. fishes can't fold any pair, we can valuebet 3 streets with tp.
Thank you so much for the reply Dangomango. First time posting on the forum and it is truly warming how someone would reply with so much good info. Thank you.
You mentioned about position win rates, which I have previously neglected. Apart from being absolutely demolished from the blinds, my BTN is also underperforming - despite having the best WWSF. What could that have been a result of?
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Thank you so much for the reply Dangomango. First time posting on the forum and it is truly warming how someone would reply with so much good info. Thank you. You mentioned about position win rates, which I have previously neglected. Apart from being absolutely demolished from the blinds, my BTN is also underperforming - despite having the best WWSF. What could that have been a
Just from a glance, in your bb position, the vpip/pfr gap is huge. Which means, you call too much in bb. Calling too much and being oop lose you money in the long run.
Also you're only losing money in sb/bb which is normal but imho, sb/bb are probably your biggest leaks in your game.
Sb stats looking pretty high imho, it's very similar to your co stats. I rather have higher vpip/pfr in co than in sb.
Your also can look up the stat of total won without counting blinds. If it's positive, it's still ok.
Anyhow, for starters, call less in bb, 3bet/fold is probably a slightly better strategy. We can call with speculative hands only if there's more incentive to do so. Ie. utg 2.5bb open + 1 or more callers, we have like sc/small pp it's easy to call. Even if it's headsup, if stacks are deeper(150bb+), I don't mind flatting with sc/small pp.
But vs btn, I think we can 3bet/fold. It's easier to win when you have initiative.
Vs open + caller, I think we can squeeze with a linear range.
On btn I think you can steal alot more, 3bet a bit more. Your vpip/pfr is very low for btn specifically, your vpip is lower than your bb stats.
Thanks for the reply Stars, what type of information should I provide for a better view?
It would be useful to see the following:
Raise first in (RFI) by position
3-bet frequencies vs. RFI by position --> You can add in stats, "3-bet vs EP/MP/CO/BT RFI"
cold call % (CC%)
Some BB defense stats: BB vs SB 3bet, BB vs SB Fold, BB vs SB Call
BB 3-bet, Fold and Call vs. BTN
Fold to 3-bet IP/OOP as preflop raiser
Just from a glance, in your bb position, the vpip/pfr gap is huge. Which means, you call too much in bb. Calling too much and being oop lose you money in the long run.Also you're only losing money in sb/bb which is normal but imho, sb/bb are probably your biggest leaks in your game. Sb stats looking pretty high imho, it's very similar to your co stats. I rather have higher
You should not evaluate positional win rates with 7k hand samples. That being said a good goal for SB and BB positional winrates for 6max NLH without antes is about -15bb/100 and -30bb/100, respectively.
You also can't really evaluate his BB specific stats very well without knowing more information. You would want to know RFI size, position, frequency, etc. It is also -NOT- a good idea to adopt a 3b or fold strategy from the BB.
This question is probably unanswerable in my opinion, but, may I ask why you're playing zoom? You would drastically increase the odds of having a breakeven or even a positive winrate, albeit small, if you switched to regular tables. There, you would be able to work on your game without the pressure of paying a -4.5 bb/100 tuition.
It would be useful to see the following:Raise first in (RFI) by position3-bet frequencies vs. RFI by position --> You can add in stats, "3-bet vs EP/MP/CO/BT RFI"cold call % (CC%)Some BB defense stats: BB vs SB 3bet, BB vs SB Fold, BB vs SB CallBB 3-bet, Fold and Call vs. BTNFold to 3-bet IP/OOP as preflop raiserYou should not evaluate positional win rates with 7k hand samples.
Thanks Stars, I checked a couple of those and did find out some leaks. My BB 3b against the button, for example, is way too low at a 9%. Really appreciate the insights.
This question is probably unanswerable in my opinion, but, may I ask why you're playing zoom? You would drastically increase the odds of having a breakeven or even a positive winrate, albeit small, if you switched to regular tables. There, you would be able to work on your game without the pressure of paying a -4.5 bb/100 tuition.
Yeah, totally makes sense - I do think reg tables should, in theory, be more beatable. However, I thought the rake structure for regular tables is somewhat similar to that of Zoom, if not higher?
You need to provide way more stats (c-bet, fold to c-bet, raise flop c-bet, check raise flop c-bet, AF, Agg%, 3-bet, fold to 3-bet, call 3-bet, 4-bet, etc.), a graph with redline would be cool too. Your W$SD is super high, which means you call river only with the very best hands. That means you often get threw off the pot with potentially the best hand -> learn how to pot control, especially in position, provoke stabs and catch them with a hand that cannot withstand more than 1-2 streets of value, say something like J7s on JT3-4-4, yet will catch many bluffs (missed straight draws, 2nd pairs Tx and other random crap).
Your basic stats provide useful insights though and point out to one and most obvious and glaring mistake - you are not positionally aware. As your position comes closer to BTN, you should start opening up.
- EP stats are very reasonable.
- MP can be already looser than that (20-23%)
- CO is a position which you can treat almost like BTN if you see that BTN is a nit and blinds are tight too. Either way 22-25% easily and start flicking in some more 3-bets with the top of your folding range with good blockers, Axs and Kxs are best candidates
- BTN is where the money is at. 26/25, you are such a nit! You can easily maintain an opening range of ~~ 43% and expand it even more if blinds are nits with like 20% VPIP or less. You VPIP from that position should be easily over 32% (not to confuse with RFI of the before mentioned 43%), this 32% take into consideration 3-bets as well and those can be plentiful, more than 8.2%, around 10-11%
Blinds are tricky positions. In general, imagine you fold 100% of the time. What would your winrate be? -50 bb/100 and -100 bb/100 respectively. So if you can do something like -20 and -30 (so still lose, but cut your loses) = it's a big win. Blind defense is essential.
- SB - you mostly want to adopt 3b or fold strategy here, can call occasionally if BB is a fish or a nit with low 3-bet and fish opened and you want to set mine or call some Axs, etc.
- BB - this one is the most important. You should limit your 3-bets here and call A LOT, since you're getting a great price. Typical open raise is 2.5 BB, so you will have to call 1.5 BB to see a 5.5 BB pot, so you need to be good 1.5 / 5.5 = 27-28%, which is almost a fit or fold play. But...you can also add some:
--- implied pot odds whenever you hit it big
--- occasional x/r with good draws (preferably combo draws, which don't have SD value, yet posses very good equity. Together with fold equity, this is where your EV is made)
If you're not a winning player yet, forget about Zoom and play the reg tables. You need more time to think through spots and consistently arrive at correct decisions. You need more time to formulate and execute a profitable strategy.You're probably just clicking buttons at 800 hands/h...give yourself space to breath.I'd also wager that you're not playing tight enough for this r
+1 to regular over zoom tables. Table selection is one of the most important things and given the number of tables available at these stakes - this one is non negiotiable.
Open up 4-6 tables with at least one fish somewhere to your right, pay attention to what's going on, make notes adjust, exploit. Once the money (fish) is gone, it's time to move on. It's more work than just playing at Zoom, but it's worth it.
Yeah, totally makes sense - I do think reg tables should, in theory, be more beatable. However, I thought the rake structure for regular tables is somewhat similar to that of Zoom, if not higher?
It's higher, and some changes made especially by pokerstars (getting rid of the lobby) decreased the difference between zoom and regular tables, but you still have the option to play around and keep trying new tables until you hit the jackpot (a big whale). Fishes on zoom play tighter and lose less on average, and how/if you're gonna get a good seat on them is random.
This is an image I borrowed from a former 200z reg's blog. The guy was obviously a beast and was crushing zoom, but look at the difference it made for his winrate, when there was, and when there wasn't, a fish (or many fishes) at his table:
Very useful data, goes to show the importance of fish finding. People are chasing some promos, rake races, whereas one fish can give you more.
Yea I do find the regular tables more beatable, but the rakes are so damn high
This is my session yesterday where I played 1.9k hand and paid 193bb in rake, which is almost 10bb/100. I find that quick crazy.
10 bb/100 is a typical rake at these stakes, usually gets lower as you go up. You may want to tighten up a bit.
OK so I've played quite a bit of micros as well and been doing pretty well. I'm not half as good as a lot of these people here, so take my advice with a grain of salt. But it's an open forum and I felt like I could share something I've learned without giving too much detailed information I've spent a lot of time getting by working it out myself and/or by discussing strat with my poker friends and acquaintances.
I wouldn't play zoom at all for starters. But if you do, danfomango's first comment is pretty spot in imo. Make the nits fold, don't pay them off, and get greedy thin against fish. That applies to reg tables as well, but there you get more game flow information, such as is this guy going to be tilted/spazzy based on recent action you paid attention to, or how are other players reacting and adapting to everything going on around them. Table selection is your friend if you mean business. No need to bumb hunt, but reg battling can wait until you think you are a top reg in whatever pool you play.
Pay close attention to timings and sizings, avoid giving those tells yourself against observant players. Get your preflop ranges right as well. You might have a default opening range studied for size X and that's a good start. Are your defense ranges against different sizes studied as well? There's a massive difference in your ranges from all positions against UTG 3 bb open compared to UTG minraise, especially on the BB. A lot of people in this kind of a pool are also making their own positional opening ranges up as they fly, or use the same range from all positions meaning too wide EP and too tight LP, which can give you pretty significant opportunities to exploit those by choosing a tighter or more aggressive deviation from from theory.
Just constant adaptation/observance and studying exploits in addition to theory. It's a good thing to know what theory might be doing in each spot against an unexploitable player, but just do remember that no such player exists. Learn your pure action lines first, then see what's mixing in theory, and in game make an educated guess which one you should choose without mixing based on either player specific reads or pool reads/MDA. Preflop is a good start. It's a lot of work that will continue as long as you keep improving, but there's just no way around the fact that getting really good at this game is a shit ton of work/studying/playing, a process that will never end. Or that's how I see it. Luckily though, at these stakes you'll get towards the top of the pool relatively quickly if you just put in the effort. It won't happen in one or two days, but it won't take multiple months either if you are analytical, patient, honest to yourself, and throw your table ego in the trash, which is a real issue to some guys. Not meaning you necessarily, but I thought it's a good thing to be mindful of when you start.
Best wishes mate 😃
Hey Silver, why don’t you post a few hand histories that reflect spots you were not quite sure in-game how to play them? I’m sure there will be people, myself included that would be happy to give some constructive feedback.
Would also echo the sentiment that regular tables may be the better way to go for you - also gives you the opportunity to learn how to implement appropriate adjustments when having a larger sample size on your opponents.
