Daniel Negreanu's very own containment thread. All things Danny go here

Wrong! It does NOT matter if he is vegan or aggressive or whatever. All that matters is that he is a boy. Oh Danny boy, the pipes the pipes are calling.................

It's his jam.

I haven't followed to see where he's winning his big pots from. But if he's just getting stacks in preflop, it takes a ton of the skill from the game as equities are super close, so you're mostly in spots that are 55/45 or 57/43 equity. Not quite coinflips, but pretty close.

Even best-case scenarios preflop are usually 65/35 (I've had some exceptionally rare instances where I was greater than 70% preflop, but they're hard to come by)

So if he's doing well because he's getting it in and winning the flips that matter, that can account for it.

If he's actually going to flops and playing post-flop poker, it attests to more skill in the game.

Playing PLO short stacked, and going to the flop with an SPR of 1-3, is not something you see much of playing PLO cash and is something probably suited to DN's style of play.

Someone has a series of wins and final tables in high stakes PLO tournaments and you say maybe he just got lucky and won some coin flips. Tournaments start fairly deep. How come other players didn't get lucky and win coin flips? Can some amateur play a bunch of $10K or so small field PLO tournaments and make a bunch of final tables?

I think almost everyone understands that veganism is a moral choice based on objections to exploiting animals.

I also think that veganism severely limits your choice of diet and ability to have new experiences with food, and most people would probably agree with me on that.

Perhaps some vegans are very adventurous in their diet. And certainly tons of non-vegan are extremely non-adventurous, eat the same things every day, and are averse about trying anything new.

But I don't really see Daniel as being part of the former category. We see what he eats every day in his vlogs, and it strikes me as very limited and pretty boring.

I think of myself as an adventurous eater, and I while I understand the moral issues with eating animals, I don't believe I could have a sufficient diversity of dietary experiences without eating any animal products. I've eaten at vegan restaurants, and while they were fine, I just couldn't do that every day.

A couple years back, I tried eating live octopus at a restaurant in Busan. Although it's not something I particularly liked or have any desire to do on a regular basis, it was a very unique experience to unlike any other I've had to have food that felt like it was actively fighting against you while in your mouth. This is an experience that vegans will never have, and I can't imagine anything close to it at a vegan restaurant.

You apparently can't hear the carrots screaming!

I said I had no idea how those tournaments play, or how he's playing hands in them.

I said IF he's just trying to jack up the variance and get stacks in preflop, it removes a significant portion of skill from the game, as most hand matchups are close to coin-flips.

Short-term variance in smaller-field big-buyin PLO tournaments doesn't really mean much statistically.

If he's actually playing more post-flop poker where there's real decision points in PLO, then it amounts more to skill in that instance.

Again, I haven't followed his play closely, but checking the Hendon Mob profile:

15K PLO - 71 entries - 5th place

10K PLO - 78 entries - 3rd place

10K PLO - 99 entries - 15th place

5K PLO - 159 entries - 1st place

5K PLO - 164 entries - 18th place

10K PLO - 200 entries - 8th place

1K PLO - 243 entries - 5th place

3K PLO - 84 entries - 6th place

15K PLO - 64 entries - 7th place

10K PLO - 104 entries - 1st place

5K PLO - 155 entries - 17th place

3K PLO - 159 entries - 6th place

500 PLO 6 max - 363 entries - 6th place

AVG FIELD SIZE = 149 players
AVG FINISHING SPOT - 7th-8th place

Now obviously I have no idea how many bullets he's firing to achieve these results, if the structures of these are more turbo-oriented resulting in more preflop shoves taking place, etc.

Obviously a lot of these are going to be filled with PLO specialists, given the buyins, so he's definitely holding his own against some of the best in the biz.

Looking at just the results, I'd say he's doing better than I would've expected from him in the PLO streets based on stuff I had seen in the past.

You can't tell too much by Hendon Mob, because it only shows cashes.

He has the record for PGTs, all in the last 5 years, with 11. I think 7 NLHE, 3 PLO, 1 Dealers Choice, including 1 $300K entry NLHE. He enters all the events. However, still it is really hard to argue to is a fish.

Short stacked PLO late in tournaments is different from cash PLO like 300xBB deep. He is a good tournament player, and can obviously play tournament PLO well. He is probably better at tournament PLO than some high stakes PLO regulars. However, with 50/50/100 public PLO games going regularly, the best PLO players aren't going to play some $10K PLO tournament.

I don't think Dnegs is a fish at all, but I do think he'd be better served playing larger-field events where his edge is far greater, especially in his reads, against the masses, rather than always focusing so heavily on playing ultra high-rollers filled to the brim with wizards.

I don't think he's terrible at PLO, I just don't know that he's as good as he perceives himself to be in the game. But again, that's from limited stuff I've seen in his vlogs over the past few years.

I think he's a phenomenal mixed player and has uncanny reads overall.

I agree with most of this. Think he may be down the last few years playing so many $100K+ entry events. There is huge variance in those, but not sure he is +EV in those. Maybe he wants to develop his skills in those and/or it is good for his marketing when he sometimes final tables or wins them.

In terms of his marketing, the win in the slow structure $50K 9-game and the record for the most PGT wins, with the PGTs starting in I think 2021, should impress the fish he is luring into GG. Neither of those are large field events.

In terms of PLO, playing it well technically and having good reads etc. playing very shallow with ICM issues, etc. are two different things. The high stakes PLO and mixed games events are also not infested with GTO types like the limit events.

As far as mixed games, he played back when most games were limit and he has experience in the $2K/4K or whatever game at Bellagio. Plus not all the mixed games players are good tournament players.

Unless DNegs has improved tenfold since last summer, he sucks at PLO and is sunrunning. One listen to any of his PLO vlogs from last WSOP and you can find several comments that show a poor understanding of PLO tournaments. He constantly says stuff like "I have a low rundown-ish hand which is actually a really good hand here because I can 3b and if I get 4b I basically know my opponent has Aces and I will have a lot of boards that are good enough for me to get it in" which is a laughably bad statement.

Low rundowns are better short stacked, because you don't have the issue of losing big pots with dominated hands.

The point of 3-betting with low rundowns in tournaments is you can represent a high pp or high rundown and it will be hard to read when you hit. You have a hand with good equity which is not what you are representing. In deep stacks cash these hands are trash because you can lose big pots with lower straights, lower two pairs, lower flushes, etc.

Deuce, please don't give out all the secrets to world class MTT PLO play!

No problem. When a top player makes what seems like an obvious mistake, it is better to try to figure out what he is doing than to go on about what a fish he is.

Try 3betting these hands in tournaments for a day and see how you fare... To say they are good 3betting hands short stacked is just beyond false.

Good advice, they are top players for a reason, and more than likely better people than us.

Well, whatever he is doing, he clearly isn't dead money in PLO tournaments.

Hellmuth doesn't play well technically in NLHE tournaments even without not knowing GTO. His short stack play is terrible. He also makes a lot of technical errors in razz, PLO8, etc. tournaments he has one or final tabled.

An old school player who knows how to play poker, has good reads, and is an expert on tournament strategy can sometimes do better than someone who plays the games better technically.

Puggy Pearson’s ghost would like to second all of that!

Does Daniel have vegan rescue dogs, like Joaquin Phoenix?

I've been big Daniel fan for long time.

Now before we go "oh no not politics", its Daniels fault hes decided to make it a central point of his twitter feed.

Mod edit: If you want to talk DN X politics, you can do that on X. Not here. Thank you.

Quite the team Daniel has for the 25k Fantasy Draft. lol

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Daniel has unlocked the secret that drinking water and hydration is good for the human body. This is an absolute game changer