![[Two Plus Two Publishing]](/images/2+2.gif)
..the 'quiz' questions were based on hands he played in an actual NLHE tourney. As I have posted before, 'theoretical' books on NLHE in general and tourneys in particular, suck and suck badly, for the most part. The only way to learn is by playing yourself, and studying actual examples of NL play (from Brunson, Ciaffone, WSOP videos, etc.)
Even the detailed PL/NL hands from "King of a Small World" (best poker work of fiction ever, book or movie), are a bit sketchy in places. It's almost impossible IMO to construct a coherent "this is likely to be a situation you'll be faced with" example a student can learn from, in regards to a NLHE tourney, without it being primarily based on an actual hand.
Bill, Who is the author of King of a Small World?
"It's almost impossible IMO to construct a coherent "this is likely to be a situation you'll be faced with" example a student can learn from, in regards to a NLHE tourney, without it being primarily based on an actual hand. "
I don't believe this is true. I can say that if you play in a NL tourney you will be faced with the prospect of playing medium pairs in mid position.. Or A,K up front or A,A up fron or Big pairs in the blind etc. I don't need an actual hand to illustrate a situation one will face. I can say if the flop is xxx you may play the hand in such and such a manner. This is basically how TJ Cloutier wrote his book and I believe it is a good book for NL tournament play.
Vince.
Whoever said you can't deduct a tip to the tournament dealers?
In a previous thread, many people seem to be implying that this is the case. However, I am of the opinion that you can deduct these tips from your profits, just like you can deduct losses, as an itemizable deduction.
Just like losses, tips are a normal and expected consequence of playing poker tournaments. As such, they ought to be accorded the same status.
I certainly have no direct knowledge of this, but I always thought it was so. If you know I'm wrong, please provide whatever citations you have available to the regs or otherwise that indicate you can't deduct this expense.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (Fossilman)
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I was imprecise. And I very well may be wrong here, because I don't know what the rule is.
If subjected to an audit, I would argue that a tip is a gambling loss, because it is a normal and expected cost of playing. Just like losing a hand. Hotel, food, and the like are not normal and expected costs, because there is no need for many gamblers to pay these expenses (typically because they live near the casino).
And while it may be that in the heat of an audit, I would just go along with the Auditor when he disallowed that deduction, the fact that he says you can't do it is only somewhat indicative of what the law really is. While they are apparently improving in this regard, the IRS has a long history of breaking the tax laws. They often tax things they shouldn't, disallow deductions that should be allowed, etc. They even frequently do this as a matter of official IRS policy. For example, the Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit might decide a lawsuit in favor of a taxpayer. Then, the IRS will issue a notice to their offices stating that the judgment will be complied with for taxpayers that are in the 5th Circuit, but that the IRS will continue it's old policy for taxpayers in other circuits. How's that for BS?
Maybe we should ask the folks who do those tax articles for CardPlayer? They probably know what the right answer is, as well as what the IRS is doing (if it's different).
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Badger wrote:
>>The IRS isn't logical in any way when it comes to poker income though. <<
The IRS isn't logical about income period thus the incredibly screwed up tax system but I digress.
Has anyone looked into incorporating. Filing as a c or s type corp. I have consultants who have done this and get great tax advantages.
Just a thought from an old rusty accountant.
I've read this a couple of times and perhaps I'm missing something probably due to the fact that I'm not at the level where this is an issue for me. But if you can deduct a $500.00 loss but not a $500.00 tip as a loss why bother differentiating the two. You win a tournament, bet the dealer $500.00 the next top five cards are a royal flush in diamonds, when they're not pay him. It's a loss now!!
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Hi- Just back from SARGE and Jack Binion's Horseshoe in Tunica MS. My first event of this type and it was great. Wonderful people and the folks at Horseshoe did a great job making us all feel welcome and that our patronage was appreciated. Tournaments were professionally run and all had a great time.
If you don't mind listening to me blowing my own horn keep reading ...........if this bothers you, stop reading now.
I got incredibly lucky and won the Omaha/8 tournament (watch out Badger!) and finished 7th in SHO (Stud/HE/Omaha all high) and then ended up in second place for best all around player award. When we were heads up in Omaha/8 I offered to split it, but foolish fellow said no. At the time we were even, but he had a single chip more than me. His statement was "Let's Gamble". and so we did....I had come back from multiple all-ins to be even. My rush continued and he lost. I got great cards just when I needed them the most.
It was a great time. Better than the money I won, was what it meant to me personally. Best part of all was winning the tournament and getting my TOC qualification for 2000.
I had been worried that I would be sitting on the sidelines in July, now I can be a participant. Entry is higher this year, but still worth it to me to play with the best of the best. So look out poker world, the gushing and overly emotional amateur from GB will be there again!
Diane from Green Bay
Congrats Di,
Good luck at the TOC.
Diane,
Good going. It's good you didn't split the prize!
mah
Mark- You are correct! It is amazing how often the person who rejects the deal ends up on the worst end of it. I am always willing to deal if offer is halfway fair.
I must say that David was very nice about it. He was not sarcastic or obnoxious in any way. Matter of fact, after we played on and I was continually whittling away at his chips, he commented about how he made a mistake in not taking the deal. He was a gentleman about it to the end. I hope I was as gracious of a winner as he was as a loser.
Diane from Green Bay
Diane,
When the blinds get high and especially in Omaha 8B the hand values run very close. To me, it's a crapshoot. So, I think the offer of the deal to your opponent was a very good idea.
Alright Dianne!
Hip, hip Hooray! Congrats on your win! Hooray! Hooray!
Vince.
BTW - Be careful when you challenge Badger. He made it very clear in his CP article that he feels you female creatures are given a chaise lounge when playing with the Male of the species. He will be doubly alert against you, I'm sure. Oh, well, maybe that will work in your favor too. Then he can claim that men are either too soft or too hard with women poker players. Just what should we do? I know! Send all those females back to Venus from whence they came. Oh, My!
Vince- THanks for the congratulations and caution on Badger.
I would love to play Badger. WE met last summer at the TOC after exchanging several emails. We are both basically from the same town. He is originally from a small town 20 miles south of Green Bay, and I currently live 15 mles North of GB. Heck, almost neighbors with the family he left behind!
If he fears women (and I truly doubt that) then I guess I have an advantage. I will need every advantage I can think of to try and beat him. His record is outstanding.
Diane
"His record is outstanding. "
Sigh! Agreed! Don't you just hate that.
Again Congradulations.
Vince.
Yesterday, I played in the Poker Zone Tournament at the Mirage in Las Vegas. The game was No Limit Hold-Em $60 buy-in and $40. multi-rebuys. The total pool prize was over $7000. Well, I finished in 9th place and collected $155. Many world class players participated in it. I never tought possible that I could gain invaluable experience in playing in a low limit poker tournament. Well I can only attribute the success of these daily high quality level poker tournament to Donna Harris, Poker Manager and author of "The Professionnal Poker Dealer's Handbook". I tought it was a good idea to tell you all about it. So,on your next trip to Vegas if you want to practice your tournament skills well you know where to go.
3 times at in a NLH tournament someone raise 2 or 3 times the BB before the flop and I go all in with pocket 10's. I got called each and everytime against someone who has AQ. 3 times I lost. So, I asked a few World Tournament Champion what will they have done. Each and every one of them told me to muck my hand without knowing the end result and one of them did not let me finish my sentence and said muck it. I asked a top side game expert from Texas what he would have done and he replied: "If you beleive you have the best hand going in you've got to go all in. This situation happens to me 800 times a day." Quite a few tournament player told me if you beleive you have the best hand you've got to go. But the champions are unanimous, muck your hand. I wonder if this is the fine line between Tournament Champions and other players. What do you think?
You are a slight fav. TT against AQ - what the champs are saying is you can't get busted with a hand like TT.
Yhere are to many hands that dominate it. I treat JJ on down as pairs I want to see the flop with really cheaply and don't call big raises with them at full tables and usually muck in the face of big bets from good players.
Why go all-in preflop when you almost know for sure that getting called by a hand (like AQ) that has 2 overcards is just about the best you can hope for? Very seldom will someone call with a smaller pair here, so you will either be called when you're a small favorite (vs. the 2 overcards) or when you're a big dog (vs. the overpair).
If the raise in front of you isn't too much of your stack, just call preflop, and see if you flop a set. Or, at least you can see if any overcards come, and decide whether to bet out and get the overcards to fold now while you're still ahead.
Later, Greg Raymer (Fossilman)
I'm in mid position, tournament is about 1 1/2 hours old I have T$1150. Passed to me I have AKo (best hand I have seen in an hour) bet 300 - 3 times the bb. Passed to bb who is a fair player who over plays small plair out of position and has about T$2000. He pushes all in.
What do you do - blinds just went up for next hand to 100/200.
I think you're pot-committed. 1450:850 is certainly an overlay in a situation you view as even money (A-K v. small pair). If this were the final WSOP event, I'd throw the hand away, but here I think you must call.
Rounder,
If you are prepared to take (roughly) a 50:50 shot for these pot odds (and I would), then what you need to consider is how likely is it that he has AA or KK, the two hands that kill you. The more he overplays small pairs, the less likely it is he has AA or KK. If you think he would call and trap with AA, that makes it less likely as well.
Maybe another factor is the strength of the rest of the table. Do you think you can get a better shot later considering you only have 3 rounds of blinds left - and after one round, you can only double up to around 1400 rather than the 2300 on offer here.
As ever, I'd have to be there to be sure, but given that "he over plays small pairs out of position" I'd lean towards calling.
Andy.
Same for me 2 days ago. Someone comes in with 9 times the BB and I have 4.5 times the BB. He had A-J. I called all in with AKo. He made 3 jacks. After the fact I knew I came in with the best hand. Does it matter? I beleive calling all in with AK is wrong. And we all know bringning it all in is a much more powerfull play. In your position you added an interesting tell that may favor a player to call all in with A-K. I still beleive A-K is not a pair and choosing between Life and Death I would choose to live and come back stronger later on. I don't like walking back to Houston!
I knew he didn't have a big pair and I was right I pushed in - god I hate going broke with AK but I did.
He had 7's I had black AKo flop was all clubs but that was that. I said "nice hand" and walked out to valet parking.
I thought maybe I should have pushed in pre flop but that would reek of "I don't want a call here" I had previously made 3xbb bets with big hands so I wanted them to put me on a big hand this guy just wasn't good eneough to put down the 7's. Good player on my left said he mucked 9's so my raise was effective (mostly).
I just didn't know a better way to play to play this hand I was a dog here and anyone who reads my posts knows that is not my ideal situation or one I am in very often. An old but true saying to win a tournament you have to beat AK and win with it. I lost with it but won't next time. I hope.
I take it you're still far from reaching the money, right? That being the case, you're trying to win (and to avoid losing) chips.
You say he overplays small pairs. OK, that definitely means he doesn't need to have AA or KK here. How about non-pairs? How often do you think you'll be looking at AQ or worse in his hand here?
Against most players, I think that the chances of running into AA or KK (a hand that dominates me) is roughly equivalent to the chances of running into AQ or worse (a hand I dominate). As such, I think these will roughly even out. Thus, overall, he is way ahead a small percentage of the time, you're way ahead a small percentage of the time, and you're about even (he has AK or a pair 22-QQ) most of the time. Since the pot already contains so much money, I think that the call becomes the right play.
After his raise, the pot contains T1500, and it will cost you T850 to call. You have to feel that he has AA or KK a pretty large percentage of the time for you to fold correctly. The concept of folding here just to survive (because you don't know that he doesn't have AA) is wrong, IMO. You should do your best at putting him on a range of hands and make the best decision accordingly. If you're wrong this time and he has AA, you might be right next time and he has AQ.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
This guy would push in on me with just about any pair and probably AQ AJ maybe AT. I was slight dog and his 7's held up.
Greg,
While I agree with your analysis, it's worth pointing out that while AK v AQ is a 5/2 favourite, and KK v AK is also 5/2 favourite, AA v AK is a massive 13/1, you will be walking back to whence you came if he has Aces.
So I wouldn't say it quite evens out but I think the pot odds are enough anyway, plus Aces may be a hand he would call with to trap.
Andy.
Andy,
The pot odds really didn't enter into it for me here if I win I douple up and if I lost I'm a walkin'. I figured I'd be about even odds to double up which I really had to do at this point in this tournament. It is a real grinder doubling blinds every 15 min and adding antis at the 500/1000 phase.
Rounder,
You need to double up. Go for it. It is mathematically unlikely that he has AA or KK, because the deck has only 3 Aces and 3 Kings. When you move in before the flop you have approximately a 48.7% chance to catch one of your cards which will beat just about anything he holds.
When I was in Vegas on my last trip I played a tournament at the Stratosphere. I had AK on the button. The blinds I think were 5 and 15. UTG raised to 50 the next guy called a guy before me made it 100 and I moved-in. Once of the blinds called, UTG called, another called, and the guy that raised is to 100 folded (the guy that folded was Guz "Miami" Beaz, I had played in other tournaments with him before). Well, I snagged an Ace on the turn and took down three players. One of the guys that called me had JT suited and paired a J. I thought he was gonna cry just from the look in his face. But, really he was the lucky one because I busted out in 12th without any dough.
Should tipping in poker tournaments be bore out by the winners or should they be evenly distributed to all participants? Is it the responsibility of the players to assure that dealers earn a livable wage or is it the responsibility of their respective employers? This controversy seems to have started when the IRS got involved and decided to tax tournament winnings. I agree with Badger that stiffs are repugnant. I do not trust casinos that will not even pay their employees a livable wage to be a trustee for 3% of our total prize pool.
Chico - I'd like to see all the tournament players put up a few bucks each for the dealers. I hate that envelope sitting there and the tournament director reminding me dealers work for their tokes and that is all they get. I say add the "juice" and pay them I am not their employeer and can't deduct the money I toke.
Hey, I work hard in tournaments really hard and when I win I'd like to keep it all.
I tip 10% of my winnings, regardless of what place I come in. I figure that amount is about the same as what the dealers would get when I tip in a ring game. I wish I knew beforehand what kind of compensation the dealers were getting for tourney dealing as opposed to ring game dealing so I could make a more accurate assessment. What annoys me is that some people don't realise that they should tip, often those who don't win a big amount.
10% is way to much you think you are buying dinner.
2-3% is my top end.
I agree. 2 to 3% from mid to major tournament. In a small tournament if I win below a thousand I will give about 5%.
What is even better is for the casino owner to give that 2 to 3% to the dealer because winning player will give back a lot more to the casino games, such as: blackjack, craps, sports, and let's not forget the slots. Now that's what I called good business investment by the casino. Give a little and get the money back in the games 100 times more.
The second best thing that could happen for tipping the tournament dealer is to take 2 to 3 % from the total tournament revenue for the player to keep his declared winnings only.
I take my win and go home. I know players who do OK in tournaments and take it directly to a ring game and lose it right back. As for the pit games I may take a few bucks and put it on 36. But that is it.
I am not out there to gamble.
23 is clearly the number to play. It has mystic powers.
Andy :-)
Andy,
Are you Crazy, 23! Have you not seen "Casablanca"? "22 seems like a lucky number tonite, put your money on 22" (paraphased. Oh that wonderful "Bogie".
Yes, 22, is THE number of with mystical power.
Vince.
What's going on, no reruns in the UK?
Vince,
That's as may be, but didn't James Garner in "Support Your Local Sheriff" put it all on 23 and lose, then he did it again in the sequel and won ? Now there's classic cinema.
In any case, I speak from personal experience. Last summer on a junket with work they set up this casino, gave everyone some chips and whoever made the most in an hour won a bottle of champagne. I placed my wedge on 23 (mystical powers), pocketed my inevitable winnings and used the remaining 59 mins 45 seconds for some _serious_ drinking. Naturally I won. Little did I know I was following Sklansky's casino tournament theory (Gambling for a Living ?) to a T, but I was. So there you go.
I apologise to anyone who has who has lost real money at roulette - hang on, the hell I do, it's your own fault. I do apologise to everyone who's time I have wasted with this sub-thread, but hey, it's Friday afternoon.
Andy.
Both of you clearly lost it as '21' is the number. I even celebrate it once a year.
Oh. I guess I'll cut my tips to 5%. For now, I'm playing in small tourneys with a $45 buy in and around 30 entrants. I'm have no idea how much the dealers are being paid by the house so I can't make a good judgement on how much I should tip. However, I'll follow your and Yvan's recommendation and cut down on the % tip. Thanks.
I won 3 $1500 1st prizes this year and left 40 twice and 50 once - actually I slipped one good dealer an extra 20 (so one was 60) cuz he did a good job at the final table and I wanted him to have it with out splitting it.
Looks like my 3% is what I do. Some of the players don't toke at all.
I think tips should be taken out of the pool. Say 2% and be done with that. I hate being hustled for tips later on. Just take it out or you might get stiffed when you hustle.
P.S hate being hustled for tips.
I have had decent results in nlholdem tournaments at local club average approx.5tables 20-30 min. rounds they are starting satellites for june tournament ,twice a week one table no rebuys fri. multi tables with rebuys satellites $30 buyin entry in tournament $275 .What adjustments should I make for the satellites .
In a single table satellite (or any other format with a single winner) survival no longer matters.
I'm sure that sounds odd, because how can you win if you don't survive?
What I mean is, the concept of passing up a slightly positive opportunity so as to not risk going broke should not be a consideration any more. To win anything at all, you must win it all, and that means you need to win every single chip. You can't survive while others knock each other out and win second place money. You've got to get in there whenever you have the best of it and try to win those chips.
In a multi-table satellite, it depends. Some of these are single winner events, in which case my advice applies. Some of these super-satellites award the top prize to the last few people. Be sure you know what can be won for each position, and play accordingly. If it's one winner, do whatever you can to win all the chips, even if it risks elimination. If there are multiple winners, then survival, just for the sake of survival, comes back into play (once you get close to the money positions).
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Haven't read Greg's post yet - I am sure his advice is good - I think he likes tournaments almost as much as I do.
Here is my best advice on the single table freeze out.
10 players - you will have some time to measure the opposition as the blinds start off small and if there is a lot of action. Sit back and only play premium hands let these guys take each other out I usually don't get serious until we are down to 3 or 4 palyers if I am hitting big hands I'll do some of the work myself. If this table is leting you see flops cheap go ahead and play some high potential hands - but don't get in to drawing contests if you don't hit the flop with a sledge hammer get out. I have seen players dump all their chips in with a 4 flush and one card to come.
Ouch!
This is my favorate format of all the formarts available. I wish I could spend my life playing them.
In the super satellites multi table with rebuys. This takes a bit of player sense - you have to ID the players who don't care how many rebuys they have to buy they are gonna go all in until they start to hit. Try to isolate these guys and hammer them with their weak holdings otherwise play solid tight aggressive and you will be OK so long as the cards run your way once and a while.
I wish you snccess.
I just wish that when they play that 4 flush they wouldn't make it so I could win for once.
No adjustments necessary for you, HY. Just continue to play your odd assortment of trash and if the deck hits you over the head, you'll be fine.
Final table 7 left. I was under the gun in pervious hand when the 2 to my right get knocked off. Guess what now I have to post a big and small blind. No dead button - I get hit with 1 1/2 blinds and guy on my left has a big.
Another good reason for a players association and standardized rules through out the tournament world.
Someone forgot to take their Prozac. No way you should have to post both in the same hand -- that's a ridiculous handicap in a tourney, particularly with blinds as high as they are near the end. Now we should ask Mr. Sklansky if there are any hands that should be folded to a raise in this situation pre-flop, if any.
This sounds crazy.
So how much was it to call the blind? (was the small blind dead money?)
m.a.
At the time it was 1200 for both blinds pluss there was a 2nd bb. I had T41200 on the button.
in a way it may be best as no one can steal the blinds so anyone that raises needs a hand and you are in position to steal the blind from the guy on your left for half a bet.
Good positive attitude as usual Ray, but I still think it is unfair.
Rounder - If I understand you correctly, the player who would have had the button got knocked out on the previous hand.
The ruling would have been different in the places I play.
IMHO the button should not have moved in this situation. The player one position to your right should post the small blind and you should post the big blind.
The dealers who get stuck dealing tournaments generally earn less in tokes than when they deal in ring games.
I appreciate the tournament dealers and tournament managers where I play and I toke them well after the tournament, assuming I place somewhere in the money. You can't beat good help, but you have to pay for it.
I believe that in your case you simply got an incorrect ruling by an obtuse dealer or tournament manager.
May you get a better ruling next time.
Buzz
No, the ruling is their house rull no dead button 2 players were knocked out during their blinds so button went directly to me and since I didn't pay any blinds I had 1.5 blinds on the button. Most casinos would do a dead button but not Harras in Maricopa.
I have played in many clubs, some using the dead button method, some using the always advancing button method.
If your club was using the latter, they should have had you post a BB on the button, and the 2 guys to your left would also post a BB (3 BBs total). Next hand, the button moves, and the 3rd guy to your left posts a BB, and the 3 of you who posted BBs last time would each put up a SB now (1 BB and 3 SBs total).
But wait, what if there are only 4 players left total? That would mean that YOU ARE the 3rd guy to your left. So, does that mean you still should post both blinds? I have no idea.
It is these almost-impossible-to-handle situations that is the strongest argument for the dead button rule. While I agree that both rules have problems (specifically, I have seen guys get the dead button 3 or 4 hands in a row as the blinds continued to get eliminated at the final table or 2 of a tournament), I prefer to avoid these completely intractable situations caused by the always advancing button rule.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Harras Sunday morning $15 buy in one 10 rebuy Limit HE tourney - My 21 year old daughter is visiting me from ISU where she is a Jr. She has good card sense but this will be her 1st venture in casino poker.
Spent the morning in "training" - let you know how we end up. She'll probably get further than I do.
tounaments are lots of fun.
scott
My advice to her would be to make a last longer bet with her "old man". ;<)
John I am glad we left before she had a chance to see your post. 60 started and at the break she had T$3000 and I was at T900 - we both ended at the 2nd last table and I was on her left. We were both bb I was all in and she bet to the river and lost too. So technically I was 16th and she was 15th.
She played prety well for her 1st tournament and we both had a good time - Mike
Rounder,
Good going to your Daughter! Boo Hoo to you!
Vince
This is a situation that keeps plaguing me - an all in player towards the end of the tournament.
At the Reno Pot-of-Gold there are 14 players left in the Thursday no-limit tournament - paying 9. A player was just eliminated so Peter E. and I have two big blinds of T400. The under the gun player goes all-in for the full T400. Everyone else folds and I find QQ. I am about to raise but decide to just call and keep Peter in to try to eliminate the UTG. Flop comes A K T. I check, Peter checks. Turn is a 9. I check and Peter bets T600. Oh shit! I figure I'm drawing for a Jack but I also think Peter will also check on the end so I call. The river is another Ace so the board reads A A K T 9 - no suit. I check and Peter bets T1200! Well I figure he has at least a minimum of a King, so after some thought, I fold. What do you think Peter E. has. He's an experienced tournament player and part time dealer.
It could be a lot of hands. If he didn't elimiate the the all-in player, then he's an idiot for pushing you out of the pot. He must realize that the goal is to eliminate players, so I don't think he would bet unless he had the nuts.
QT, JT, Q9 or J9 is my best shot. Possibly an under pair.
You said he is a dealer so this could mean he could have just about anything.
Max,
The only time I would go out of my way to eliminate an opponent is if one place higher really makes a difference, e.g. there a five players left and 5th->4th is a significant jump in prize-money. Until then, look out for number one. QQ is not a hand that wants many opponents as you know. I try not to get involved in these pots as the all-in stack has an advantage which you need a decent hand to overcome. If everyone folds to you and there's no-one behind you, that's a lot different, but I don't like to get involved in a multi-way pot with one or more all-in unless I've got a strong hand. You don't have to be the sheriff, let them knock each other out. In this particular case, raise to protect your hand and ignore any comments you get from other short stacks.
Andy.
If he is a GOOD and experienced player, he will have at least top 2 pair to bet that turn, and should have trips or a straight.
There is no side pot here, so no advantage is gained by bluffing (since he cannot bluff out the all-in, and if Peter can't beat QQ here, why would he think he can beat the all-in, who went all-in voluntarily?). Thus, he should not be betting to get you out, but to get paid off by you. As such, you should not have called the turn bet with 2 overcards on the board, as you must be paying him off, not calling with the best hand.
If he was betting a pair of Ts or 9s, then you need to downgrade your opinion of him significantly, and he's a total fish. The only hope he has of winning the main pot with a hand like one pair of tens is if the all-in player is holding a pocket underpair. That is just about it.
Hope he had AK and you saved some money.
If there had been a side pot of any significance, then his turn bet need not be a strong hand to be a good bet. He can be trying to win that side pot, and not be too concerned with the all-in player, since you are still a couple of orbits away from the money. Winning those chips is still more important than eliminating a player, IMO.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg-
I was at the Taj a couple years ago. I was shortstacked and went all in with pocket 5s. An unknown player and Peter Vilandos called.
The flop came k-8-x, with two clubs. Peter bet and the other guy shrugged and folded. No clubs came on the turn or river. (I think it was Ten and a 7.)
Anyway, Peter couldn't beat my fives, and won only hos own money back in the side pot. I lived to fight another day. We were pretty close to the money and the other guy (who could obviously beat fives on the flop) was left shaking his head in disgust.
This alo baffled me, as I know Peter is a succesful tournament player.
Never played with Peter, though I am familiar with his name. Maybe he screwed up, and would admit the same today. Maybe he had a good reason that is beyond me, though I doubt it.
Did Peter and the other guy have a lot of chips left? It may be that Peter was betting on the come in order to build a sidepot, and was hoping that by building more of a pot now, he could get the guy to call him for all his chips later (after Peter made his flush draw). That's the best reason I can think of right now, but if true, I still think he screwed up.
It could be that he was losing concentration late in the tournament from being tired, and just made an autopilot kind of semibluff bet, one he would normally make if the all-in player wasn't present.
The interesting thing would be to describe the situation to him without using names, and ask him his opinion of the guy who bet out. He will probably tell you it was a mistake.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg-
I was at the Taj a couple years ago. I was shortstacked and went all in with pocket 5s. An unknown player and Peter Vilandos called.
The flop came K-T-x, with two clubs. Peter bet and the other guy shrugged and folded. No clubs came on the turn or river. (I think it was another Ten and a 7.)
Anyway, Peter couldn't beat my fives; and he won only his own money back in the side pot. I lived to fight another day. We were pretty close to the money and the other guy (who could obviously beat fives on the flop) was left shaking his head in disgust.
This play also baffled me, as I know Peter is a succesful tournament player.
Greg-
I was playing the $500 NLH event at the Taj in 1998. I was shortstacked and went all in with pocket 5s. Peter Vilandos called in the SB and a player unknown to me called in the BB.
The flop came K-T-x, with two clubs. Peter made a pot-sized bet and the other guy made a face, shrugged and folded. No clubs came on the turn or river. (I think it was another Ten and a 7.)
Anyway, Peter couldn't beat my fives and tens; and he won only his own money back in the side pot. I lived to fight another day. We were pretty close to the money and the other guy (who could obviously beat fives on the flop) was left shaking his head in disgust.
This play also baffled me, as I know Peter is a succesful tournament player.
Sorry, about the delay. I got busy and forgot about the thread.
The other blind that chased me out showed 8 5! The all-in player lived!
I couldn't believe it. I was momentarily furious with him. But soon realized that I should have raised. My belief in knocking out a player cost me and 18 chip swing!
The only thing that made Peter's play other than idiotic was that I played worse and he won 6 chips.
Tuna was at the table and said he didn't understand it but I don't think he was paying full attention and didn't realize how bad Peter's play was.
I recovered and did make the final table but was knocked out by Tex Morgan's K Q against my A 8 in the big blind.
Thanks everyone,
"Wenatchee" Max Faulkner
Another poster to this forum and I were discussing this situation earlier today and I thought I'd get some feed back from other players.
NL Holdem Tournament Blinds are 100-200 Both of us had stacks of about 2500
Passed around to a player on the button who opens for 400. I'm in the BB with JT suited. Both of us agreed that I should play the hand but he argued that a reraise is the appropriate strategy, i elected to call. I'm interested to see what others think and why.
Fold. Immediately. Do not pass Go, do not pay $400 ... What are you hoping to flop headsup? You are out of position for this type of hand and will pay dearly to attempt to complete it. Further, you are paying about 25% of your stack on a speculative hand. However, if you think Willy Lump-Lump is out of line and raising with 4-5s on the button, you would be better served moving all-in. A call is dead-wrong, an all-in move is much better, and a fold is best.
I disagree. I think a reraise to 1200 is the best play because it gives you so many chances to win. Remember, the button is very likely on a steal, and with a reraise you will fold many better hands like Ax suited. Additionally, the reraise sets up a bluff on the flop. If you were playing a 3 handed game and got a raise on the button to your bb you would fold JTs? What kind of hand are you going to wait for to defend that blind with? You are correct that firing back at the raiser is better than just calling but I don't think going all in is necessary. In no limit, the threat of future bets (the remaining 1300) is just as powerful as an all in bet and it allows you to fold to a rereraise (like if he had a ligitimate raise).
I think, Earl is right. You donīt have enough chips to make this play. If you raise up to 1200 you are in too deep. It would be something different, if your stack was 10000.
When you raise up to 1200, you hope that he folds. If he calls, you definetly are in trouble preflop. What do you do, when the flop comes, and you donīt have much of anything? What, if the flop comes something like AT4? You are commited to the pot, so you probably have to bet all in, no matter what flop comes. This is sort of gambling, IMO.
In Austria we say to this kind of play: "You risk a postoffice to win a stamp." :-)
Regards
m.a.
"If you were playing a 3 handed game and got a raise on the button to your bb you would fold JTs?". Yes. Even Kx is a better hand in this spot. And if you're thinking of raising with half your stack and then folding to a re-raise, that's even worse. Choices : 1) Fold. 2) Raise all-in. Choices end. If you start mucking about with half your stack you will fool yourself much more often than a good opponent.
Andy.
So what you are saying is that if we are playing together I can raise your blind with impunity because I know that you'll fold even a decent hand. If I get a reraise from you I'll fold but most of the time I'll win the blinds. Since I'm only risking 2x big blind I only have to win the blinds 4/7 of the time to show a profit. Since this is a tourney and you can't tell what my button raising standards are I will raise every hand, even 72o. You may be right about reraising all in (I'm not convinced though) as opposed to 3x the original raise but I think that fold is second best. At least we can agree that calling is the worst option.
Yes and no (as usual). Firstly, if you start doing it every time then obviously I will lower my standards accordingly. And secondly, if I think you are half-way loose I could easily play back with any Ace, any King, Q9 or better and any pair, which comes to more than 3/7 of hands I think. But you make a fair point.
Andy.
Depends on the riaser. Is he the kind of player who is on a steal all the time or just with decent hands JT is no great shakes - I just call here if a player who is not trying to steal most of the time and raise if he is maybe you win it right there and stop this guy from hitting you in the blinds..
There is only one reason to reraise here, and that is if you are highly confident that he will fold. I do agree with other posters that if you do reraise, it should be all-in, since a pot-sized reraise will take about half of your chips anyway. However, if this guy could be raising with an A or K, and will call your raise preflop, but would fold to your bet on the flop if he doesn't flop a pair, then you can consider raising to T1200, saving T1300 to bet the flop with, thereby beating a better hand.
I would generally call and see the flop here, because you can flop a lot with a hand like JTs. Most especially, if you flop a straight, you will often find out that the opponent has simultaneously flopped top pair, 2 pair, or a set. As such, you can get him to put in all his chips as a serious underdog when you get this lucky.
There is one big reason why I might fold preflop. Would this player normally raise more, and does his small raise point to a high likelihood of a big pocket pair? If he would only make a small raise with a monster hand, then I would be concerned that I would have to flop 2 pair or better (and not just a draw) to play on. In that case, the times that you flop a made hand of 2 pair or better are not often enough to justifity putting in even T200 more.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I called for similar reasons to what fossilman gave. I think JTs is too good a hand to fold for a possible steal raise but not good enough to risk my enitre stack (any sensible raise he commits me to the post, whether it be 1300 or all in) If this was a larger tournamnent then a fold might be the correct play but in small NL tourneys you'll get killed if you constantly wait for only premium hands. This hand works well with many flops and even if the flop doesn;t hit hard it could easily set up a semibluff situation.
You are out of position to play this hand correctly with a call. Fold, unless you really think this player is out of line then call, and bet the pot on the flop no matter what comes (note that you should have a good line on your opponents play before you do this).
In planning for the upcoming WSOP, I'm reviewing some of the things I faced last year. Here's a situation where I believe I made the correct play, but I'm interested in other opinions.
Late-night NL super-satellite, down to 10 players, 5 at each table. 8 places will be paid. Blinds are 1000-2000 (everyone is playing with $500 chips). I'm short-stacked in the small blind with 6 remaining chips after posting $1000. I'm dealt 4-4, and it gets passed around to me. The BB has 12 chips remaining. What is your play with the 4-4 and why?
As so often, I would say: It depends. The most important question is: Is there a reasonable chance, that 2 players will get knocked out of the tourney in the next round. (Maybe there are other players, who can just post one blind). If this is the case, fold and hope that they get knocked out. Itīs a satellite, and you donīt play for first place, you play for 8th!
Second: Is the player in the BB a player, who frequently calls raises with marginal hands? Or is he a player, who tries to knock out as many players as possible? If this is the case, you should fold even if you are the shortest stack in the field and hope for a hand where you can raise the blinds. (In this case i would raise every A if nobody is already in). But is the player in the BB a player who just wants to survive and wonīt call you unless he has a premium hand, then you should raise.
Anyway, if he calls, you wonīt be much of a favorite.
What did you do and what happened?
Regards
m.a.
I played in supersatellites last year and know how hard it is to get thet far. You could put in 2 chips and hope bb lets you take the flop, I don't like this option at all. You could fold and hope for 2 knockouts which may happen at any time or you can push them all in and eigther get a fold - which I doubt - or show down as the most likley fav.
I push in try to end up with 16 chips and cripple the bb.
This is where you stand up and look at everyone else's stack at both tables (preferably, you do this everytime the dealer is shuffling, so it's not so obvious that you have a borderline hand when you stand up and look around at the decision point).
If there are 2 players who will be forced all-in by the blinds within the next 3 hands, then fold and hope to crawl into 8th place. If not, then you will be the one forced all-in 3 hands from now (when it's your BB again). If there are not 2 other stacks with only 6 chips or less, then you probably should go for it here where you are likely to be the favorite.
Another consideration, is there 1 person who has 6 or fewer chips and will forced to go all-in before you? If so, and if he gets eliminated, you will break a table and redraw for seats at the final table, right? This may give you up to 7 hands for free (or none). However, if there are a few guys with 10-12 chips, who might blind off some, and then be forced to take the blinds again before you do at the final table, then folding here and waiting for the 1 player to bust might be a good choice.
Of course, if lots of players are still doing lots of gambling, then folding is again a good choice, because some player with lots of chips might do something stupid and eliminate himself prematurely.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
If everyone is playing with $500 and the blinds are $1000 to $2000 you should fold. Because if these players have any brains, the small stacks should eliminate each other because they have to play before it gets back to you.
I believe the down-side is too great to raise with pocket fours unless the BB is a particularly tight player. I would fold 2's through 5's in this situation. I think calling is the worst of your three options.
I raised all-in. The BB, a guy wearing an engraved bracelet whom I didn't recognize then nor have seen since, called with Q-J offsuit. A jack came on the turn and I got no help.
With the blinds coming again in 4 hands, it's unlikely I would receive a better hand. Nonetheless, as Chico noted, these small pairs are so treacherous because you are at best a very small favorite. Quite often, your opponent may not hit his hand, but 2 bigger pair comes on the board. Still, heads-up, 4-4 is marginally better than A-K and there comes a point where you have to commit with something.
Several posters noted that my decision must depend on the read of the player. Unfortunately, we had just redrawn for seats and I didn't have much of a read on the player. As for the stack situation, I'd already examined the stack sizes at both tables, and no one was in immediate danger. The points that Greg made about people "becoming empty seats" before the blinds get back to you are probably the MOST relevant aspects of deciding when and which hands to play.
Frankly, even in retrospect, I don't see that the BB's call was any better than a middle-limit player would make, defending his blind because of a couple of face cards. As Rounder pointed out, if he loses, HE is crippled. Usually, the best players in these supers play precisely tight near the end of these things, just trying to survive. There are exceptions (read some of Mike Paulle's posts). Sometimes you can get a seat with just one chip left. But my on-the-spot analysis did not show that I could just coast through to a seat.
I was somewhat surprised that I got called by such a middling hand, but alas, it was me that was all-in and facing elimination. Being the shortest stack out of 10, my strategy in that situation is always to pick a hand and commit. I've been in this "close" scenario several times at the WSOP: In 1998, I had enough chips to coast into a seat when we were down to 10 players, but in another event the night before, I went out in 16th when Susie Isaac's Q-10 offsuit beat my Q-6 suited (now *that* was a bad play, but that's another discussion).
Thanks for the responses.
2 over cards to any pair is the same odds for success what difference does 44 have against AK or 95 - none really except for a few straight possibilities.
ANY pair is the same here to me. They have to improve, I don't. Gimme the under pair in this situation any time and I'll take it and run.
Final table at a small NL tourney. Six players left with place money down to sixth. 6th place pays 105 and 5th pays 200 or so. I am in the sb with Q9o and 2200. Blinds are 1500-3000. Second player in fires all in for 7000. All fold to me I call, bb calls (bb has 12000). Raiser has AA and wins. My question is, should I fold this hand in the hopes that the bb will call, possibly knocking out the raiser and moving me up to 5th? Or should I call because this is likely to be the best hand I'll get in the next 5 hands? I think fold is the right move but I'm not sure.
Unless your stake is something like 100k, you should fold. Always remember one thing: You donīt have to knock out any player but one (heads up) to win a tourney. Let the others to this job, unless you really have a hand or itīs really just a minimum amount to call (e.g. raise is up to 4k, and you are in the BB for 3k and have a stack of 12k)
Regards
m.a.
It's probably not the best hand you'll get in 5 tries but the way you should be thinking is, it's definitely not the best situation. When someone raises like that in front of you then they have a hand of some value (normally) and it is impossible for you to win the pot without a showdown. You need to scale up your requirements because of these points.
With only 2200 left, of course, it's impossible for you to win any subsequent hand without a showdown either. Prior to paying the blinds you have 6700 - a lot of good players would make their move before the blinds here because a) they might take the blinds down without a fight, b) even if you drop to 2200 and win you're still short-stacked.
Provided you get your money in first you can take a few liberties - if someone has raised before you, you need a _much_ bigger hand. This also applies in part to your JTs post below.
Andy.
I think your fold was good here. Q9 is not that powerful hand to be calling raises with it is a mistake and you can most likely get somthing better to play before your next blind.
First, you have T2200 left if you fold your small blind, or you started the hand with T2200, and T1500 of it is in the small blind (leaving you with just T700 if you fold)?
What do the other positions (i.e., 1-4) pay?
How many chips total are in play, and how are they spread among the 3 players you didn't mention?
How much are the other players gambling? Are they still getting into it, and risking their chips against each other? Or, is it a constant series of one player (usually a chip leader) raises, everyone else folds?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think Fossilman is asking the right question and others have misinterpreted. Robin has 2200, including the sb (1500) so if he folds he only has 700 left.
I will have t700 left if I fold the hand. Total chips in play is about t55k. When I first got to the final table I had t22k but due to many poor hands (read 94o, etc.) and a 7k bad beat with 99 vs A4s I quickly dwindled to my present status. The positions pay something like 1000, 600, 400, 300, 200, 100. Most of the at the final table seemed fairly normal, with one player raising and everyone folding. The chip leader(s) weren't doing the majority of the raising, and the chip positions shifted around quite a bit.
OK, I think I can analyze your situation now.
If you fold, the BB is probably going to call, because he is getting 3:1 on the call. On average, since the other guy was raising when he didn't have to, I would guess that the BB is a 2:1 dog. So, if you fold, you're either going to be eliminated soon in 6th place, or the raiser here will go out now, and you'll get 5th place. Since the raiser will lose something like 1/3 of the time, you move up to 5th place and 200 about 1/3 of the time. So, this fold probably gives you an EV of about $133 or so.
If you call and lose, you come in 6th place for $100. If you call and win, you stay alive and have about T6600. Also, if you win, and BB comes in second, then raiser is eliminated, and you immediately move up to at least 5th place.
You win, but raiser is not eliminated. Still 6 players, and you have T6600 out of T55,000. At this point, I will say that you have chances of finishing in each spot of about 12%/14/16/17/21/20. Multiply these percentages by each prize, and you get an EV of $381 for this scenario.
You win, raiser is eliminated. 5 players, and you have T6600 out of T55,000. Estimated chances of 12/15/18/24/31, do the math, and the EV is $416 for this scenario.
If you call here, I think you lose 70% of the time. Of the 30% you win, I think the raiser survives 20% and is eliminated 10%. So, 70% of 100 + 20% of 381 + 10% of 416 is about $188.
As you can see, even with a 70% chance of elimination when you call, your EV goes up by more than $50, or more than 30%, by calling.
Of course, I've made hundreds of simplifications to do this estimate. What if the BB doesn't call (whether or not you also call)? What if your win rate is worst than 70%? Better? What is the raiser might be out of line, and will be eliminated 60% of the time he is called by the BB?
So, there is no clearcut right or wrong answer. However, once you are in desperate shape, but a win can give you a reasonable shot at moving up to a win of the entire tournament (and a win here gives you 12% of the chips), then it is often worth going for the win. I mean, 12% of the chips, with a prize of $1000 for first, is worth $120 even if no other places are paid. So, by folding here all you really do is increase your shot at moving up from $100 to $200, but you give up your realistic shot at the $1,000.
Where you need to be much more inclined to fold is when a call and a loss eliminates you, but a fold still leaves you with a viable number of chips. If you would have had T4,000 left with a fold here, then I'm pretty sure a fold would be correct (although I haven't checked the math).
The reason I do these types of analyses is NOT because I am capable of doing this at the table, when the clock is on me, but because it gives me a better feel at the table, so my guess is more likely to be correct.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks. That was very helpful analysis.
Nl holdem tourney 2 players left. I have 24' he has 70' first hand: I'm the BB, blinds is 2',4'. Sb raise 4' He has been raising frequently before this heads up and I figure he's trying to steel the blinds. I've been playing very tight. I look down at A,x. I reraise 16' all in. he calls and shows J,J. tourney ends. I've very little heads up experience. Did I make a suckers play? comments please.
If he's been aggressive, there's no reason to think that has changed now that he's headsup with a lead, so you can't back down here. Ax headsup is a great hand. The only clue I see in your post is the small amount of the raise. If someone does this, it is usually for one of 3 reasons:
1. They are new to NL HE, and under the pressure of the moment have made a limit-sized raise.
2. They have found that a small raise is just as likely to make you fold as a big raise, so they are always raising small.
3. They have a monster hand, and don't mind a call.
Obviously, there might be a milllion different reasons behind their play, but these are the ones I've seen the most. If you can rule out 1 and 2, then #3 screams to fold, or to call now, but don't bet or call postflop unless you flop really big (2 pair or better).
Most likely, you just got unlucky in that a guy who might have raised with anything happened to have one of the few hands that put you in serious trouble.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thank you for your thoughts. Heads up play is hard for me. I think that itīs the most complex part of the game. Maybe itīs because I donīt understand it. Do you think that Image is more important in heads up than in other parts of the game?
I was wondering how much more difficult it is to win a tournament where there are rebuys possible, yet you never choose to rebuy. I want to continue playing poker but I feel safer not risking too much money, and tournament play seems a good way to do this...especially if I dont rebuy. Is it ok to enter a tournament where almost everyone in the tournament is rebuying and you are not.......Any strategy changes I should make?!
In the vast majority of tourneys that I have entered or heard about, if a rebuy was available, it was usually correct to take it. Many tourneys feature rebuys that are cheaper (or you get more chips) than the original buyin. In these spots, you have to take the rebuy to be playing optimally. In other tourneys the rebuy is the same price as the original buyin. However, if you can rebuy at a point in time where you have fewer chips than the average player, then again the rebuy is a good deal (although it's only marginally so).
If you're unwilling to take a rebuy, the better strategy is to forego the tournament entirely, unless it is of the latter variety (i.e., the rebuy is the same price). If the rebuy is cheaper or you get more chips, and you won't take it, you're giving up too much equity to the rest of the field.
If you don't like rebuys, stick to tourneys that offer none.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The entry is 40 dollars and the rebuy is 30 dollars...and you get exactly the same amount of chips. Is this a huge enough difference to make it wrong to play in the tournament altogether? I figure that perhaps with early conservative play, some of the players who are willing to rebuy over and over will play very loosely and perhaps I can get a good amount of chips very early? Also I have never played in a no limit tournament before....so Id rather invest the minimum amount learning how it goes, and there are no tournaments of the "no-rebuy" nature in my area
Let's say you get T600 in chips for your buyin. You paid $40 originally, or T15 per $1. A rebuy at $30 gets you T20 per $1, or a 33% premium. This is what you will be giving up to the rest of the field if you are unwilling to rebuy.
Here's another way to think about it. Let's say you buyin, and there are an average of 3 rebuys per player, with 100 players in the tournament. At the beginning of the tournament, your chips were worth $40 (since no one had rebought yet, that was the average price paid). By the end of the rebuy period, if your stack were to happen to be the same, it would only be worth about $32.50. Thus, you have paid $7.50 to the field.
If this is acceptable to you, then go ahead and play and get some experience. Gambling at a disadvantage isn't so terrible if you have a clear vision of what you're doing. If your goal is to minimize losses and you don't mind paying $7.50 for that goal, then go ahead.
However, since this is NL, I see a potential problem. If you go bust real early in the tourney, it is going to be hugely disappointing. I live 6 miles from Foxwoods, so it's a quick drive, but I would hate to go there, park, get inside, signup, and then be leaving for home again 5-20 minutes later.
Also, the willingness to rebuy allows you to play some hands where you feel you have the edge, but are not invulnerable. If you're in constant fear of going broke, it is quite likely that you will be playing a less than optimal game, because of this fear.
Good Luck, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Just a little clarification--
It sounds to me like you get the same amount of chips for the rebuy as for the original buyin.
I'm guessing that of the original $40 buyin, $30 goes to the prize pool, and $10 is juice. Thus, the rebuy chips are worth the same as the buyin chips.
I agree with your analysis though, Greg (as usual).
Max
My daughter and I played in the Casino Arizona $30 buy in no rebuy tourney today. I would have lost another LL bet if she bet her old man. I was 16th and she made the final table in her 2nd try. I put it down to genes and advanced condenced training - she disagrees. What ever she is $350 richer with her 7th place finish.
DID I CREAT A MONSTER OR WHAT!
You should be paying your daughters entry fees and taking a cut.
it is painfully obvious to me you are a much better teacher than player. i advise you to put all of your money into your offspring's hands and retire to the farm. i suggest chickens and goats.
Some animals for the farm would be nice also.
In many parts of Montana, marriage between a man and his sheep isn't legal. Visitation at the vet's, however, is almost always allowed unless the sheep objects. I'm not sure what the legal status of chickens might be. Here in California, we only use chickens when we're too poor to own sheep or when it is shearing time and the sheep are, understandably, skittish...................................
Do you guys know why Scottsmen wear kilts.
Cuz the zippers scare the sheep.
:)
"when it is shearing time "
Hey padraig, it's good to know you shear those things. I hate getting those little "wooly balls" in my navel.
Vince.
Actually I played pretty well considering I had a couple of really dead seats making the final *2* tables in both tournaments is close (but no cigar) like one winning pot away in both.
I am a real proud papa - of course had she busted out 1st in both I'd be just as proud.
When deals are made at the tournament table for large buy-ins does the Casino accomodate the deal or are you responsible for the taxes even though you did not get the amount the Casino awarded?
For example, first place pays $40,000 and second $20,000. First and second make a deal for $30,000 each. Does the Casino accomodate the deal?
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
It depends upon the casino. Since Badger says usually, then it probably is true in most casinos where major tourneys are held (LV and Cal). However, here in Connecticut, Foxwoods does not recognize deals whatsoever. Fortunately, they are no longer reporting wins to the IRS at all, nor withholding taxes (unless you win more than 300:1 on your buyin). So, you can just report the real figure to the IRS on your own.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You say they don't recognize deals. Who wins when their steadfastness abuts the tax laws which specify that the paperwork be accurate?
JG
I guess they win.
At Foxwoods, you must either play it out to the end, or the players must at least designate which of them is the winner, 2nd, 3rd, etc. Then, FW will pay you the official amount according to that order of finish, and it's up to you as the players to spread out the money according to the deal you made.
Thus, FW can say it did the paperwork accurately, but that the players did something else after-the-fact.
However, since nothing is getting reported to the IRS anymore, the only thing you have to worry about is the IRS auditor asking you why you reported a win of 12K, when the report in CardPlayer says you won 16K?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
It sounds like Foxwoods sucks. They need an attitude change. When I played a small Omaha 8B in Vegas at the Orleans I was impressed at how they handled the split. We decided to do a five way split and they did the calculations and divided the money up. Well, since foxwoods is in the middle of nowhere, I will not be going there for anything.
Hi everyone,
In the pot-limit Hold-Em Tournaments I play in the buy-in stage can be very loose. 20 rebuys or more on an 8-player table is quite common. I'm doing OK during this stage, I normally have more chips than I paid for, but I think I'm playing too tight and could be doing better. The question is, what hands should I be playing back with against a loose raiser (and frequently loose callers) ?
Let's get specific. Consider 4 hands : 77, KQ off, AT off, JT suited. And two scenarios : firstly, a loose raiser pops it in second position, you're in fourth position. Secondly, you call in middle position, there's another call, loose raiser pops it on the button and a blind calls the raise. In each case, the raise is 100, you have 1000, and the raiser has at least 1000 as well. And let's say that a "loose" raiser is raising 1.5-2 times per round.
Which hand(s) do you prefer to call (or re-raise) with in each scenario and why ? I appreciate that "it depends" as usual, but any insight into your thinking would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Andy.
Firstly, I wouldn't reraise with any of these hands, because you're not likely to be much of a favorite, if any, over range of hands even a loose raiser could be holding.
Unless, if you reraise now, and the loose raiser will either fold now pretty much, and/or fold when you bet the flop (and he misses). If he will back down to a reraise frequently, then you can reraise with pretty much anything, knowing that you will win much more often than you lose (since most hands miss most flops).
My preferred play, against a loose raiser who isn't going to back down easily, would be to call with the 77 and JTs for sure, and with the KQ and AT if it appears that the hand is going to be heads-up between you and the loose raiser. These hands are strong enough to play for 10% of your stack preflop, if you will get paid off well when you hit. The KQ and AT are decent against a loose raiser alone, but I don't like them against 2 or mroe opponents. (if there are others in there, it is too likely that when you flop top pair someone else has a better kicker or 2 pair).
However, there really isn't that much need to play looser preflop, just because someone else is playing looser. Stick to hands that are either strong favorites preflop (AK and big pairs), or hands that are good enough if you can get in cheap enough (small pairs, suited aces, maybe suited connectors).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
From this weekend Limit holdem tournament $115 buyin, 68 players Down to six players Remaining prize pool roughly 2800,1400,1100,700,360,300 1000-2000 limit 500-1000 blinds
Stacks after blinding UTG ~8000 2 2500 3 1200 4 ~9000 LB(me) 2600 BB ~9000
Before the hand, I was thinking that I could fold around twice and have a good chance of taking fourth (where the prize money starts ramping up).
In the hand, it was folded around to me and I had A5o. I threw in a raise and ended up going allin and losing.
At the time I was very content with my play, but in retrospect I was wondering if I should have even considered folding and hoping to back into fourth.
-Mark
giving up first to hope for 4th is never a good play. if you folded you still wouldnt be a favorite to get 4th as both the others would have to lose on the next round. you could have just called the bb and played on from there or do as you did and gamble. if he was a caller id just call and if he folded alot id surely raise.
If you fold here, you will be holding ~7% of the chips, and I estimate your chances of finishing in each remaining spot as about 7/10/14/33/32/4. Multiplying these percentages by each prize gives an EV of about $850.
If you go all-in here, get called, and win, you will be holding ~20% of the chips, and your chances of each spot are about 20/22/35/17/5/1. The math here gives an EV of about $1400.
However, with A5 against a random big blind hand, you are a 57.7 to 42.3 favorite. So, 57.7% of the time, you have an EV of $1400, and 42.3% of the time, you get an immediate $300. Putting these 2 together, your EV for playing the hand is about $935, or $85 more than folding.
BTW, if you don't like my estimates for each finishing position, it is pretty simple to put in your own numbers and do the math. However, even if you modify those numbers quite a bit, you will find that folding has lower EV than playing.
The real answer is how to play the hand? I would pick whichever play has the best chance of making the opponent fold. Some players will be more likely to fold preflop, although I think not many experienced players will fold here since you cannot put in a full raise. Most players will be more likely to fold if you just call preflop, then bet the flop no matter what, and hope they missed terribly. If you're lucky they flopped nothing, not even an overcard, and you can get them to fold.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg as I am amused by your analysis it is irrelevent as hell. When he is out hei EV is *O* if he doubles through twice he is chip leader. This trying to bring everything down to a math problem is silly.
We're talking about this hand, this game, these players.
I respect your tournament prowess but I can't see trying to put these situations in an equasion.
Rounder wrote: >I respect your tournament prowess but I can't see >trying to put these situations in an equasion.
You obviously are a successful player, yet I think that this is your biggest weakness. The math is key. To everything.
Unfortunately for me and some players (who can do the math easily), the math is all based upon a series of estimates (most importantly, what hand does he have). If your estimates are good, then the math will always tell you the right play. If the estimates are bad, then the math won't be of any help.
Now, some great players cannot do the math. In fact, they make significant math errors in their decisions and thinking. However, these great players do a great job of estimating. By that, I mean that they do a better job of putting a guy on a hand, of knowing when they can make him fold, of knowing how much of a bet he will call, etc.
I am working on the latter skill. I intend to become great at making the best estimates. It would appear that you are very good at making the estimates. If you learn to apply the math well, you might be the next great player.
BTW, ask Ray Zee if he thinks that the analysis I presented is irrelevant. I suspect you'll believe him more than you'll believe me, and I suspect he'll tell you that I'm dead on.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
In explaining your post to my daughter I got to thinking that I go through the same probability process but just don't do it in the equation format you use.
I sort of go through it but put a lot more emphasis on playing the man his style and chip position and my chip position in relation to the rest.
Complicated isn't it.
The things you mention, stack size, etc., are all things that go into arriving at the best estimates of what cards the guy is holding, how likely is he to call a raise, etc. Now, once you do that, even I don't do the math thing at the table in full detail as presented in these posts. But, from having done a lot of these math things in full detail, I'm good at guesstimating the math answer, based upon my estimates of the other factors.
The real handy part about doing the math, is that you often find for certain situations that for ANY reasonable estimate of what the guy has, a certain play on your part is correct.
For example, let's say there are 10 guys left in the tournament, 5 being paid. NL HE, you have 4x the big blind in chips, and are short-stacked to the field. Folded to you on the button, and you have K7s. It's a pretty marginal hand, but you should probably always raise with it, all-in. If the blinds, especially the big blind, will defend with anything, the high card power of your K means you likely have the best hand. If they are selective about what they defend with, then the fact that you will be behind when called is overcome by the fact that you will successfully steal the blinds more often. In fact, if you can assume that the small blind will fold anything but a monster hand, you will find that it is a profitable raise by you no matter how tight or loose the big blind plays. The looser he is, the more often you will be ahead when he calls. The tighter he is, the more often you will win the blinds without a showdown.
Just doing the math will show you a lot of other examples of situations where the estimate doesn't matter much. Or, it will show you what the best play is when the estimate does matter, and then all you need to do in the future is figure out the opponent, not the math.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hi Greg, and apologies to all who find maths boring :-)
I've been interested in your estimated percentages of finishing in each place. In my tournament software, when you get down to four players you can get the computer to calculate your equity. Here is how it does it.
Say A has 40% of the chips, B has 30%, C has 25% and D has 5%. The probability of the players finishing in order ABCD is calculated as 0.4 x (0.3 / 0.6) x (0.25 / 0.3). That is, A has a 0.4 chance of winning, if he wins then B has 30 / (100 - 40) chance of being second, if B comes second then C has 25 / (100 - 40 - 30) chance of being third. A's overall chance of coming second is the sum of the probabilities of all the combinations in which A finishes second, that is BACD + BADC + DABC ... Then you multiply the probability of finishing second by the second prize amount, and repeat for third and fourth. There are some short cuts you can take but that is essentially it.
Questions : Do you think this is a valid way of estimating (provided the blinds aren't massive anyway) ; if not, how might you amend it ; it would be very easy for me to extract this code and produce a stand-alone program which allows you to type in chip counts and prize money and then works it out - would you or anyone else be interested if I were to release this, almost certainly as freeware ?
Thanks for your time,
Andy.
PS You could almost certainly do it in a spreadsheet but a little visual app to do this would be cool.
Andy,
If you write it, you can be sure I will download it.
Now, if I ever get around to buying a Palm Pilot or the like, I can have the program with me at the table, and get some instantaneous figures, which would be pretty cool.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Let's play the hand again. What do I do? A,5o is not a hand I want to see the flop with. But it has agood chance of being the best hand. What to do? What to do? well I said I didn't want to see the flop with this hand. (Hey what about all that math old Fossilman did, cool). Now what kind of raise do I need to keep the BB from calling. Let's see. Blind 500-1000. Me 2600, BB 9000. If I raises all in he only needs to call 1600. Hmmm. He will call with almost any mediocre hand. How do I know? Because I would and I'm probably not as good as him. So any lesser raise he will call also. So a raise, any raise will probably have the same result. He will fold real poor hands and call or reraise with a mediocre or better hand.
Well, I'm not going to answer this one for you. Fossilman gave you some great math advice. So if you are so inclined I would take his advice and play the hand. Of course Fossilman's EV calculation doesn't take into account how your opponents play. So you may want to enter their playing styles into the equation. The bottom line is preparation. Whatever you decide is the best play in this situation should be in line with your ultimate goals. By keeping focused on a goal you will make your decisions based on the best way to obtain that goal. Be prepared is the answer I would give to myself. For what it's worth.
Vince.
both of you misread the post. greg he has enough for full bets. his figure was for after posting the blinds
vince the game is limit poker
Thanks for the heads-up Ray. I missed the "after blinding" line.
I still think you have to play this hand. It is much too likely to be the best hand for you to give it up preflop here.
The best way to play the hand is whatever way you think is most likely to cause the big blind to fold. If you think that a raise preflop (followed by a bet on the flop, if necessary) is the best way, do that. If you think you can limp, then bet the flop, and get him to fold that way, do it that way.
I do not think folding is the highest EV play.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I did believe that the game was NL. Dunce cap two this week for me. Ray, I still like my answer to the post. I don't want' to play this hand against a big stack if I can help it. My play, if I play, is too raise but I have no leverage with a raise against a big stack that's in the BB. I'm in a commit mode with the amount of chips I have. I think that I am better off waiting for a better situation. Of course waiting has it's own problems. And applying pressure no matter how little has it's merits. I really don't like a call but I suppose it's not out of the question. But if the BB is worth his salt he will apply max pressure anyway and raise with any mediocre hand. Then another dilemma. I made my answer based on the tone of the question. The question seemed to imply to me that the questioner was not focused on winning the tournament but on finishing as high as possible. I consider that a mistake but what do I know?
Vince.
Vince,
I like your answer. If the next notch up the ladder pays more, you estimate that you're going to go out soon anyway, why not just blind it out and hope someone gets knocked out while you're waiting?
Didn't peek.
Wish ou would have described the table a little differently tough to figure out but I'll try.
You'r in the SB with it folded around to you and BB is chip leader. A5 you are probably in the lead but a weak holding. If the BB is the sort to defend the blind maybe I just call with $500 it leaves you with $2100 and about the same shot I don't like this option as it is weak and bb if any kind of player will hit you with a raise which you can't call.
You have the button coming and 2 players with less chips under pressure to act.
A tough call but if I let the strategic side of my brain win this arguement I fold and look for a better hand. If the BB player is the right one I do what you did and push in.
Forget about all the math for a second. The big blind will call you with almost anything. You most of the time will miss the flop. If the big blind is a good player if you bet he will raise and you will be forced to throw your hand away and you have lost half your chips. Muck it.
Bruce S.
What do you think of the following play for the late stage of an NLH tournament where there is alot of blind-stealing by the larger staks, but everyone is calling the shorter stacks when they move.
You have 200 invested in the BB and only 1200 left. The blinds are doubling soon. A loose, middle position raiser (medium stack) brings it in for 600 (about 1/4 to 1/6 of his stack) and it is folded to you. You have some middling hand like 86s or J9o.
Rather than making the standard fold and hoping to futility steal the blinds or pick up a hand on the next round before the blinds go up, is there a play to make here. This player: a) could have anything, but is probably weak (no pair or good ace) b) will call with anything if you reraise before the flop.
I think that just calling the raise and moving in quickly no matter what flops could be effective against an aggressive player who thinks you are solid.
I tried this play last week, but was foiled because the guy was so aggressive, HE moved in out-of-turn on the ragged flop.
It's certainly a play to consider, you just have to know your opponents. If I'm the raiser, I won't automatically throw away something like AsJs, just because the flop of Qh9s4d missed me. It will depend upon who you are!
Against the right players, it can be the preferred move at any time during the tourney, not just the late stages.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think a fold is the best play. First of all with 200 blinds 600 is not a steal bet from mid position. If you just call there is now 1300 in the pot. If you move in there is now 1900 in the pot. If he has a medium stack there are not many hands he will throw away for a 600 call. If you have an 8,6 or even a J,9 the opponent doesn't need much to have a better hand. I much prefer to be the initiator. With 1100 left you still may be able to pick up some blinds from late position.
Vince.
In NL beware of "I want a call" sized bets.
Don't call here with rags in the chip position you described. If you only have to post 100 in the sb and in NL a 1100 stack can multiply into chip leader in a few hands. Keep your powder dry here for a real good hand or situation.
In a recent satelite which paid 2 places with 3 of us left,I found myself against 2 others who were obviosly good friends.I was in the SB (200)with about 1500 left the BB (400) had about the same ammount,the third player raised all in for 500.I automatically called ,however the BB with 1400 in the pot and a chance to knock out a player threw away his hand instead of calling for one more chip!At the time I said nothing and eventually had to make a deal with these characters,when I talked to the floorman afterwards I was told the player had no obligation to call and so misdeed was done.I felt cheated.To me,it was obvios collusion,which certainly is against the rules, but I'm left wondering what can be done .Any comments?
Aha! There is a key difference between this post and the one you posted previously in the other forum.
Here, you note that 2 places are paid. You didn't mention that in the first post. It is a HUGE difference.
If it's a typical winner-take-all satellite, you don't care about busting players out, you need to win every chip to win anything, so you would have been thrilled that this guy didn't call with 14:1 pot odds preflop.
Now that we know there are 2 prizes, I need to know if they are identical prizes? If they are identical, then clearly you want the guy to call and help you knock out the third player. The fact that he folded is suggestive of collusion, as any good player would call with anything here (I would call blind, and not look until and unless you bet). I don't like the apparent attitude of the floorman. He should have said that there's nothing he can do about it, but he also should have said that he will keep his eye on these guys. He also should have seriously considered having a talk with them, and warning them that if they happen to get caught doing something wrong, they will be excluded from the club.
If the prizes were of noticeably different size, then you don't mind the big blind folding so much, because it significantly increases your chances of winning the chips, and thus of winning the larger first prize. The few single table satellites I have played that offer a second prize usually have a relatively small second prize, often no more than the buyin being returned. In such a spot, these guys picked a poor time to collude, since they might be costing themselves money, as a team (I'm not sure, it would depend upon the chip counts and the relative size of the 2 prizes).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
For those who read this bb regurally you know my daughter was recently out to Arizona to visit her old man from ISU in Terra Haute, Ind. She is a smart kid and has good card sense - plays gin and spades in school - but never played poker in a casino nothing more than a few kitchen table games and really didn't know flush beat a straight.
I had 3 hours with her Sunday morning and here is the advice I gave her. Have 4 goals in mind. Make the break with more chips than you started with, make the last 2 tables with more chips than you had at the break, make the final table and win.
I told her to stick with big cards 7 pairs (no set no bet unless you have a over pair). Don't play suited cards unless one is a picture card. If you don't hit a flop hard get out of the hand.
Don't do broke.
Don't slow the game down and pay attention to the betting and call in turn. Don't smart off (like her Dad) and be polite all the time.
She did great 15th out of 60 and a final table out of 100 and a $350 profit.
Did I miss anything in the advice considering we are dealing with a complete novice here.
Rounder,
Good advice for a beginner as ever. One thing, in my experience new players are often scared to raise and it would be good to define the raising hands. Choose your own standards, but I'd say (for a beginner) make the first raise with AA-JJ and AK, make the second raise with AA, KK and the third with Aces only. And beginners should _never_ slowplay because if you are genuinely nervous and look it, you will almost always get called.
Andy.
I was going thru my diary the other day when I came across this hand. This was at the WSOP a few years back in the first limit hold-em event. The buy in was $1500 and there were about 500 players. We were down to about 8 tables. I had just survived in the big blind with pocket 7's against 2 overs. I had T1800 and was in late position with 3 limpers. Do you play A4s in this situation? Do you risk going broke with a drawing hand? Unless I catch a miracle flop this is largely a drawing hand. On the other hand if I win the hand I'll probably triple or quadruple my chips and be in a much better position to potentially win or finish in the money.
Bruce S.
What were the betting limits at that point? I would guess that they were at least 400-800? Probably more like 600-1200? If so, it will cost you a significant fraction of your stack (25-50%) just to call the preflop bet. Even though you're getting 4:1 or better on that money, I don't think that A4s will win often enough to justify that.
If everyone had deep money (you included), then you could limp here, because you are getting immediate odds of 4:1 or better, PLUS implied odds if you flop a big hand. However, here you're putting up so much money up front, that by the time you flop a draw, pay a bet or 2 to get there, you won't have anything left with which to exact those implied odds bets from your opponents.
It was a correct fold. You are preferably looking for an opportunity to get heads-up preflop against an inferior hand, or, if you're going to risk a multiway pot, you need a monster hand like QQ or better.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
We were playing 400-800.
This Greg guy is pretty good. I don't think I want him at my table.
No. Fold. While there are all-in or near-all-in strategies for compounding your money, this is not one of them. Specifically, you asked the question whether you risk going broke with a drawing hand. My experience says "no." You are better off waiting for a hand that you can play aggressively with a raise and either get headsup or take down the blinds without a fight. If you are so short-stacked that you can only call the blinds, you are better off waiting for a "20" or "21" hand to commit.
Hey,
As most of you regulars know I am a HE only player. Haven't played stud for over 2 years and never ever sat at a Omaha table I am thinking of playing in a OHL tourmanent today. Any tips. I am not a LO player eigther. I suppose a hand like KK A2 is a good starting hand.
Only reason I am considering it is for a point thing in this pennant race Casino Arizona has instituted.
I am in the running for 1st place it is a contest to accumulate tournament points over 3 months and I have only played in about 1/4 of the HE tournaments and none of the stud or omaha.
Any help would be appreciated. BTW all my books are HE only. Gosh I am specialist.
Well, if it's worth it for you to invest in the entry fees for the O8 tourneys, then it's probably worth investing in Ray Zee's book. I HIGHLY recommend it.
Here's some simplistic advice until the mailman gets your book to you.
Omaha is a game of the nuts or draws to the nuts. If many people are in there still when the flop comes down, you need one of the above. So, if the flop is 4h7hKc, you need trip Ks, Ahxh, and/or A2 (preferably A23) to continue. If you call a bet or raise with a hand like 237K, you will lose a lot more than you will win, in the long run. Your K7 2 pair will almost always lose for hi unless you fill it up, as someone will make the straight, flush, trips, have trips already, or even just make a better 2 pair. Your 23 low draw can only win half the pot at best, and will often lose to A2 or A3.
The only time you get away from this playing for the nuts is when only 2 or 3 people are in to see the flop. In this situation, it is obviously a lot less likely that someone will have the nut flush draw when you have the K flush draw. It is also less likely that someone has trips when you flop 2 pair, etc. However, when it comes to the low draws, it is still pretty likely that someone has A2 in their hand, since these 2 cards make up a large portion of all the playable hands in O8.
Mike, since you hate drawing, you are going to hate this game. It is ALL about draws. Frequently you will find yourself in a spot where you have nothing, yet you should be betting or raising, because your draws are so strong that you are still the favorite to have the best hand by the river. For example, let's say we're headsup, me with KsKdQsJd, and you with Ac2c3h6h. Flop is 4c5cKh. Although I don't know the exact figure, I am quite sure that you have MUCH the best of it here, with a pot equity of probably 70-80%. Even if we get rid of the flush draws, you still probably have an edge of 60-70%.
Have fun!
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I'll let you guys know how this newbie gets along.
I'll also articulate my AA position a bit better when I get back.
Here's a tip:
In a tournament you want to play hands that will either win the whole pot or 3/4 of the pot.
Ray Zee's book is good and if you are a fan of T.J. Cloutier his book has good advice. I recommend both.
Rounder - There are three main places hold 'em players go wrong in Omaha-8.
The first major source of error is in starting hand selection. Often a good hold 'em player will build up a chip lead only to dribble it away playing mediocre hands.
Try this starting hand selection drill. Deal out thirteen four card Omaha hands from a regular 52 card deck. Look at each hand and decide if you would want to play it or not. If you're deciding to play more than three or four hands of the thirteen hands, that's probably too many. If so, try arranging the thirteen hands in order from best to worst.
Remember that you need to use exactly two cards from you hand and exactly three cards from the board. Since you have four cards in your individual hand, there are six possible two card combinations. Practice looking at each of the six 2-card combinations.
Since you need to use exactly two cards from your hand, if you are dealt three of a kind, one of those three cards is completely wasted. In effect you only can have three different meaningful two-card combinations (instead of six). Fold if you are dealt three of a kind.
Straights are great in hold 'em, but not usually very good in Omaha, unless flushes and full houses are not possible. (There have to be at least three cards of the flush suit on the board for a flush to be possible. There has to be a pair on the board for a full house to be possible.) Full houses win for high roughly one fourth of the time, flushes win for high roughly one fourth of the time, and straights win for high roughly one fourth of the time in a full (nine player) game.
A hand like KQJ4 is not a playable hand (unless you're in the big blind) because the four does not fit with the other three cards. Avoid such three legged hands.
Avoid low pairs. If you hit a boat with them, it will usually be a loser to a better boat.
In high-low games the object is to scoop, to win the whole pot (rather than half of it). Avoid playing for only one half the pot.
It's all right to play four high cards even though the game is a high-low split game because sometimes low is not possible. In these cases the high hand scoops.
It's also all right to play four low cards, because sometimes a low straight (like a wheel) will win for both high and low.
Greg gave you excellent, well written advice. Follow it to the letter. Get Ray Zee's book and follow it to the letter.
The second place where hold 'em players go wrong in Omaha is in deciding whether to play after the flop.
Here's another drill for you. Forget about the first drill when you do this one. Deal out eight hands and leave them all face down. There will be twenty cards left in the pack, enough to deal out four common hands. Then flop three cards from the pack (forget about burning) and look at each hand in turn, leaving it face up if you think it is playable with that flop, and turning it face down if you think it is not playable. Then deal out a fourth and fifth card from the pack for the common hand (board). After dealing each card, look at each hand which is still face up and decide if you still want to leave it face up or fold it (turn it face down). After the first deal, deal another flop from the pack to be used by the same eight individual hands. You will be able to deal four 5-card common hands (boards) in this manner.
You will see that for any particular flop some hands fit and others don't. You will learn what hands you should fold after the flop. You will see that one of the hands probably is the nuts for each of the four different 5-cards hands, that the hand with the nuts will probably be different for each 5-card common hand, and that some hands are better than others. Finally, you will learn to always select exactly two of your cards to use with exactly three cards from the board to make your poker hand.
(The third place hold 'em players go wrong is not full realizing that exactly tow cards from their individual hand must be played with exactly three cards from the board.)
By the time you read this post, you probably will already have played your tournament. I hope you did well today, but, if not, there is always next time.
Good luck!
Buzz
Good advice as was all of the advice here.
I learned real quickly about the nut nut facet of Omaha. I was playing A2 to raises and big pairs with A small to a raise.
I felt comfortable after a few hands and made it to the last 4 tables - I did play a few silly hands - but I just ran out of cards - I think I like Omaha and will play a few more tournaments. I don't think I'll ever get serious about it like I am about HE.
Thanks,
I just remembered something very important that is more relevant to tournaments than it is to ring game play.
In Omaha8, more so than any other game I'm aware of, all hands are much closer to equal in value preflop.
This is very important when you're down to 1-3 bets. Let's say you are waiting for a decent hand, and will put up half your stack in the big blind in a few more hands. In this spot, I think the most important thing for you to do is to make sure you play the hand heads-up. This is because, no matter what the other guy has, you are probably at worst a 6:4 dog. The only exceptions are when you have trips or quads in your hand.
So, if you fold all your hands until the blind, and put up half your chips in the blind. When someone raises, even if they're totally solid and you know they have the goods, you should call. This is because they are no where near a 3.5:1 favorite, and you're getting at least that much on the call heads-up. A better play might be to raise when UTG unless your hand is totally hopeless, so as to better ensure that everyone folds to the big blind, and you can play heads-up. If someone else does come in, they probably have a very good hand, but if the big blind does then fold, you are still not very far behind. If it gets around to the big blind, you might just be a small favorite.
The real reason to avoid playing crap hands (when you have plenty of chips) is not because your hand is so much worse in a Monte Carlo type setting, but because strong hands can outplay you easily. Also, the weakness of many hands does become VERY apparent when played multiway. For example, holding garbage like AT96, you might be only a 55:45 dog against A234 and KKQJ individually, but if you go up against both of them at simultaneously, your pot equity will probably be well below 33% (these numbers are all guesses, so if I'm way wrong, please let me know).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg-
I just got a copy of poker probe, so I will test your thesis, which seems consistent with my "gut" feel.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Here are the data that support both Badger's point about multiway pots and Greg's point about wanting to get heads up. I will use Greg's hypothetical match ups.
In a heads-up showdown match up, AT96 has 31-36% equity vs. A234. The 36% wins is if the AT and the 96 are suited and that the A234 is rainbow. The 31% is vice versa.
For a three-handed showdown match up of AT96 v. A234 v. KKQJ, the AT96 wins 15-19% of the pot, which is 50% larger, so its "equity" HAS gone down considerably. However, the A234 still wins about 60% equity in the larger pot (worst case regarding suits), so its equity and edge compared to the other hands has gone way up in a multiway pot.
My apologies to Barbara Yoon.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Michael 7 - "For a three-handed showdown match up of AT96 v. A234 v. KKQJ, the AT96 wins 15-19% of the pot, which is 50% larger, so its "equity" HAS gone down considerably."
A biased comparison!!! Cards of little use to the A234 are K,Q,J,T,9. The KKQJ is entirely made up of these cards. Choosing a hand made up of cards that are of little use to the A234 clearly hurts the AT96 more than the A234. KKQJ hurts the AT96 because (1) its very existence uses up cards that might be helpful to the AT96, (2) cards that help KKQJ win take away wins from the AT96 more than the A234, and (3) no low cards are included in KKQJ although clearly much of the value of A234 has to do with A234 being a clear favorite to win for low.
How about AT96 v. A234 v. KQ65 (all rainbows)?
Buzz
"Join the Iceman contingent. This is dead wrong. And it's not just dead wrong, it'a anti-right. Omaha hands *commonly* have a greater disparity in value multiway than other games. By "commonly" I mean to eliminate AA from Holdem, and rolled up from stud. AK23 offsuit is conderably better against a field than AK offsuit is."
Against large fields, yes, and I've never disputed that. The reason is that Omaha-8 hands' nut draws gain value as more players enter.
"If you meant head up, it's also not true. What is true is if somebody raises your big blind, you should always call all in if you don't have trips or quads. Only extremely rarely will not be getting a good price for the 3.5 - 1. Somehow this urban myth got started because of that automatic call in the big blind, and because two *good* hands head-up is generally an even fight."
But a major difference is that a good hand vs. a random hand will be much closer to even *heads-up* than in other games. Of course, when there is money left to bet, the better hands do have a significant *playing* advantage.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I wrote: But a major difference is that a good hand vs. a random hand will be much closer to even *heads-up* than in other games.
"You're wrong partly because "much closer" is very inaccurate -- though this depends on your definition of both "good hand" and "much". More importantly, you are wrong if you think in terms of a real game context. In Omaha8, a random hand that is *played* can likely be most anything. On the other hand, in Holdem a random hand that is played is going to be 75o or J6s -- not 93o or 82o. If you eliminate the true dogs like trips in Omaha, and 72o in Holdem, head-up you have disparities that are in the same ballpark."
Take a holdem overpair against a lower pair, two lower cards, or a matching card and a lower card. Even against a matching card and a higher card it's a very strong favorite. And AK is a substantial favorite over Ax or Kx; it just doesn't demolish 72. In Omaha, heads-up matchups are rarely more than 2-1.
"For example... AKs vs. 7h5d and As2sKd3d vs. 5c6d7s8h"
A2K3 double suited is in the best 1% of hands, while AKs is only about 95th percentile heads-up (and heads-up strengths decline sharply in holdem once you get out of the high pairs). 8765 is a particularly terrible hand against A23, since it will almost never scoop. If we're talking about domination, that exists much more in holdem. AA23 double suited isn't even a 3-1 favorite over Q962 rainbow!
As for real game conditions, take standard holdem raising hands against normally playable hands that are unplayable in a raised pot and you'll see my point. Take AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK/AQ against KQ/AJ/KJ/QJ/JT, which are normally decent hands. Now take a good Omaha hand against a marginal hand. It will be much closer, and that's especially true when you consider postflop action, since with the marginal hand you'll have a clearer appraisal of the situation than in holdem.
"If you owned a poker probe you could see how these pretty parallel examples do."
Are there any shareware probes?
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Steve -
"The disparity in the relative strengths of hands in Omaha is in the same ballpark as it is in Holdem."???
Doesn't the rest of your message imply it is much greater?
Buzz
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Iceman: "A2K3 double suited is in the best 1% of hands, while AKs is only about 95th percentile heads-up (and heads-up strengths decline sharply in holdem once you get out of the high pairs)."
Badger: "Drivel. What are you thinking here, Dan? AKs is the 8th best hand against a random hand for a showdown -- better than 77, worse than 88. Are you saying As2sKc3c is the eight best Omaha hand? Nonsense."
Out of 1326 combinations, 42 are better than AKs. AK23 double suited is in the top 1% of Omaha hands even if it isn't in the top 8, since there are a lot more possible Omaha hands.
Iceman: "8765 is a particularly terrible hand against A23, since it will almost never scoop."
Badger: "Dan, this is no fun at all if you make my points! This is what we are talking about!"
You can construct individual situations that do especially poorly in either game, but 8765 is not a random hand in this spot, it's far below random.
Iceman: "If we're talking about domination, that exists much more in holdem. AA23 double suited isn't even a 3-1 favorite over Q962 rainbow!"
Badger: "Okay, now you've done it. Why would you talk of AA23 being a 3-1 favorite over Q962 in a domination context? It is not dominated by AA23!!! The point of the concept is AK dominates A7; likewise AAK2 pounds the snot out of AKK9. Or AAK2 versus AK66."
My point is that there is much more domination in holdem. AA23 does not dominate Q962. Domination situations are less frequent in Omaha, especially between playable hands.
Badger: "If you are going to talk about domination, talk about it. AKo doesn't dominate 98s."
You can construct a lot of exceptions, but the point is that domination is a major part of holdem strategy, while it doesn't enter into your decisions in Omaha. Badger: "I don't think you appreciate that there are many more possible hands in Omaha than in Holdem, which in turn leads to a larger number of even-ish matchups. But the fact is, the gamut of possible results is isw absolutely greater in Omaha than Holdem. This is not arguable. It ranges for infinity, where one hand always beats another (like 3333 versus 2222), to absolute equality (like AsKcQdJh versus AhKdQcJs) where neither hand *ever* beats the other. Holdem does not have this 77 is only 19-1 over 72o, while AsAc versus AdAh will often not split the pot due to four flushes."
The *range* of possibilities is greater. But most of that range is closer to even than most of the holdem range.
Badger: "A very large number of common Omaha hands run reasonably close together when played head-up. But the disparity between them is usally greater than, say K4 versus 98."
I'm not convinced of that.
Badger: "This all is just be minutae though, even if people didn't try to compare apples with oranges. The disparity in the relative strengths of hands in Omaha is in the same ballpark as it is in Holdem."
It is when you compare how well hands do against random hands. The major differences are (1) against specific hands, which varies more in holdem, and (2) multiway strength, which varies more in Omaha.
Badger: "The main thing to consider though is that multi-way the disparity of Omaha hand strength is much bigger than Holdem hands, despite the myths."
Multiway that's definitely true.
Dan - You wrote, "AK23 double suited is in the top 1% of Omaha hands even if it isn't in the top 8, since there are a lot more possible Omaha hands."
How do you figure AK23 double suited is in the top 1% of Omaha (high/low) hands?
I'm not asserting it isn't, just wondering how you figure (or why you accept) that it is.
Buzz
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
What don't you understand here???
Iceman: "Out of 1326 combinations, 42 are better than AKs. AK23 double suited is in the top 1% of Omaha hands even if it isn't in the top 8, since there are a lot more possible Omaha hands."
Badger: "This is just silly to define how you rank hands one way for one game but a different way for the other game, then ascribe different percentages to them."
AK23 is in the top 1% of hands; 99th percentile. AKs is in the 96th percentile, since about 3% of hands are better than it against a random hand.
Badger: "If you happen to be all-in in the big blind in Holdem and you end up against one player, and you have AKs, if you are worried about *42* hands having the best of it with you, you need anxiety counseling. 7d7h is the same as 7c7h against AsKs."
I'm not worried about 42 hands having the best of it. Reread my post. 42 hands, or about 3% do better in showdowns against a random hand than AKs. Less than 1% of Omaha hands do better in showdowns against random hands than AK23 double suited.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Probably just the better AA2x hands and maybe A234.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I was unclear, I definitely meant heads-up, though I did not say it in my post.
I also think that Dan Rubenstein has done a pretty good job of making the points I would have made had I been involved in this debate. I agree with most (all?) of his points.
It is my belief that in headsup, all-in preflop play, the average matchup of omaha8 hands is closer than the average matchup of HE hands. I also think that the matchup of a premium omaha8 hand vs. a random omaha8 hand is much closer than the matchup of a premium HE hand vs. a random HE hand.
Here are some figures. In all-in heads-up play, the following HE hands have 60% or higher pot equity against a random hand. 55 A7s A9o KTs KJo QJs I do not believe that any omaha8 hand, including AA23 double suited, has over 60% pot equity against a random hand. While there will be specific matchups where omaha8 hand #1 has more than 60% equity than hand #2, no omaha8 hand has greater than 60% equity against a random hand. If I am wrong about AA23 having less than 60% equity against a random hand, please provide me with the correct figure. Also, which other hands also have more than 60% equity?
If you are not headsup, then this "equivalence" effect drops off rapidly, and certain omaha8 hands become much stronger as you go to even 3 or 4-handed play.
If there is money left to bet after the flop, the effect is again reduced, although not as dramatically as adding extra players.
As Badger indicates, one of the main uses of this information is in tournaments. If a player raises your big blind preflop, and if you have to go all-in (or almost all-in) to call, and even if you know he likely has a premium hand, you should call if your main concern is pot odds. You are almost guaranteed to be getting proper pot odds to call that raise, because the other hand is almost certain to NOT be more than a 2:1 favorite, and most of the time will not be even a 60:40 favorite. The only exceptions I'm aware of include when your hand contains trips or quads.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Rounder, next time you are out for breakfast or play golf with my buddy Don, talk with him about Omaha/8. He is a very solid Omaha/8 player, and I'm sure he would be more than willing to discuss strategy with you. He's probably more in tune with ring games than tournament strategy per se, but you could do a lot worse, IMO.
A local casino has just started a weekly freeroll. Here's the run-down. You start with 40 in chips. Blinds start at 1-2 and double every 10 minutes (Yikes). Top three positions pay.
This week there were 14 players. It is down to 5 players. 560 chips in play. Thusfar I have played 3 hands (AK, AQ, A9s, 55, 44). I have 125 in chips. The bigger stack has about 250. The other three stacks have about 60 each. Blinds at 15/30. As a player just dropped out, there is a double BB this hand.
I'm in the SB. The big stack is in the BB. Another small stack is in the other BB. Folded around to me and I pick up AK of clubs.
If I muck now then I have 110 and can wait 3 cycles. I I win this hand I should be in a good position to win it all.
I raise it to 60 (should I have gone all in here?). My thinking is, I want to make the blinds pay to play, but I want to be able to bet the flop.
Only the Big Stack calls. The flop comes 6/6/8, one club. What to do. Assuming he didn't start with a pair, I probably have the best hand. I raise all-in.
He hesitates and calls. I don't improve and his pocket three's take down the pot.
Any thoughts?
Given the total chips in play, the hand plays similar to a no-limit hand. When you play A-K in no-limit with very high blinds, often you want to play it for your whole stack. A flat call before the flop is often a good option too. As you saw, the worst play is a raise that leaves you stranded with too much of your stack in the middle when an unfavorable flop comes.
Unless he has put you on a bigger pair, the BB who called your raise had both the stack and the pot odds to call any raise less than all-in (your 60 raise gives him 4-1). Even your raise all in would give him about a 2-1 price, again, he has an opportunity to call.
The best play was to call before the flop and fold to an unfavorable flop.
If this is No-Limit you want to raise all-in preflop. AK is a monster hand with five players left. As you can see no one really had a hand. When you go all-in preflop with AK it will hit an Ace or a King 48.7% of the time.
If you decide to just call the big blind, you are first to act, the flop does not come with one of your cards, you should try to check it down. Sometimes, you might get lucky and he'll give you a free card (but don't count on it).
For this situation, I would go all-in preflop. If you just call you would have to fold to any heat on the flop to give yourself a chance to make it in the money. The reason why you don't want to make a small raise, is because you are hoping that someone with an Ace with a weak kicker will call you with all their chips. You don't want a marginal hand to call you and see the flop cheaply with a marginal hand.
This my first time writing a post. My friend and I each won a supersattelite to gain entrance into this 1600USD buy-in no limit hold 'em tourney in Vienna. The tournament format is patterned exactly after the "big one" in WSOP in Vegas. I have limited experience playing in touneys since I am an expat living in Budapest. However, I did play in a no limit tourney at The Mirage recently and made it into the money out of a pretty good sized field.
My questions: Is there any advice anyone can offer for a tourney of this format? How does it differ from the weekly tourneys held at The Mirage (Both in terms of playing style and caliber of players)? Have any of you by chance played in this tourney or even in Austria? If so, how does their style of play differ from US players? When is it appropriate to go all-in on 23o? :)
I haven't had a chance to read all of the postings, so if there are any that I should refer to, please let me know. Many thanks and I love your postings.
By the way, if any of you are planning to play in this tournament, I'll make sure to handicap your advice accordingly.
The rounds are a lot longer. You will start off with a lot more chips and the WSOP is a 4 day event.
This format favors the better players. Be careful and don't go bust give yourself a chance to advance to the later stages.
I'll be in Europe some time soon when is this tournament.
The tournament is part of the two-week "Vienna Spring Festival" and it actually starts on March 14. The main event starts on March 22 and the top prize is minimum 80,000USD. They expect the field to be around 150-170 players.
Rounder,
Check out http://eppa.bigfoot.com for full European Tournament schedule. Drop me an E-Mail on andy@pokersoft.co.uk when you finalise your plans and I hope we can meet up.
Cheers,
Andy.
Magilla,
the most important thing in this tourney is (and never ever forget this): stay out of the hands Iīm in, unless you are very weak or plan to fold on the river. ;-)
Regards
m.a.
Over part of 1999 I wrote 12 chapters of a book on low variance poker. Usual stuff with a different slant on suited cards and starting hands also a lot on post flop pre turn play as I think this is phase is yper-critical when it comes to being a winning or losing player.
As a lot of you know my kid had a good run last week for her 1st try at poker 15th of 60 and 7th of 100. 1st time ever at a poker table.
Yesterday I was at a NL NE final table in the same casino and one guy asked me how long she had been playing (he played with her on monday) and I told him, when another guy told him she said she "read my Dad's book".
I had forgot she was editing (for grammer) the chapters I wrote and had learned a lot in the process - just talked to her on the phone in Ill. and she confirmed it.
Am I on to something or was this just a stroke of good fortune.
Is this a book that you have published somewhere? Interested in reading/buying it. Regards, Dave
Havent't published yet. I am putting the finishing touches on it a few other things have to happen 1st.
It is still in my computer.
Put me on your mailing list.
Hey Bob I'm in Tempe too do we know each other.
Rounder,
If you need another set of eyes to take a look my wife is a court reporter and can proof read the heck out of anything in a very short time.
MJ
Thanks MJ might take you up on that one.
I need some input. I am in an argument concerning the relative chances of winning a satellite or other freezeout with a stack size of 50% of all the chips in play.
My contention is that your chance of success is approximately the same no matter how many players remain. You have roughly 50% opportunity to emerge victorious versus one other player with the remaining 50% of the chips or with four other players, each of whom has 12.5% of the chips.
Assume skill level of each player is equal.
Thanks for the help.
Chris Compton Murrieta, CA
Not even close - much easier to beat one opponent than 4.
I disagree. And so does Ciaffone in "Improve Your Poker". Posing the exact same question, he concludes "I cannot see where it is any easier to beat one opponent out of 1500 [in his example] than three players out of 500 apiece". And nor can I.
Andy.
I disagree... Your opponents' extra combined outs are made up for by the fact that you can bust one or more of them out while committing a comparatively small percentage of your stack to the pot.
Hey guys I've been there quite a few times and believe me your chances are better heads up with 1/2 the chips.
I'd take that position anyday over being chip leader with 1/2 the chips and 4 opponents.
You can stick the math where the sun don't shine on this one.
:-))
Rounder,
Look, if you keep this up I'm just not going to bother. What's the point of coming on a Discussion Forum and whenever anyone states a different position or asks you to explain your position you just say "I'm right, so stick it" ?
Andy.
I have calmed down a bit. I have no intention of starting a flame war but being told to stick it before the first cup of coffee on a Monday - like John Rambo, I can only be pushed so far :-).
Rounder, I am going to take one shot at explaining this. As you would be the first to say, poker is not just about maths, it is a people game. Every game is different. Different structures, limit, pot-limit, split-limit, no-limit ; different games, Hold-Em, Stud, Omaha, Hi-Lo split ; different opposition, brain-dead hicks, weak-tight wannabes, old-timer rocks, maniacs on speed, WSOP stars, anything in between and any combination of the above ; and we're all different, we each have our own preferred style.
Now, if something works for you, great. THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT A UNIVERSAL TRUTH WHICH APPLIES TO ALL GAMES. In the current example, there are many reasons why YOU might find it easier against one opponent than 3 with 1/3 size stacks. You might be a better heads-up player than four-handed, your opponents may be worse heads-up players, your style of play might be suited to heads-up, the particular structure of the tournament might make it easier for you when the blinds are higher, etc. etc. etc. If you explain why you think it's easier heads-up, we can consider your points and decide how and whether they apply to the games WE play in. Consider Hold-Em Poker for Advanced Players. It's written from the POV of limit side-games. I play in Pot-limit tournaments. But because everything is explained logically, I can understand David's thinking and decide that, yes, this applies in my game or, no, it doesn't because XYZ but maybe I could do this, and so on.
On the other hand, your dogmatic statements are virtually useless to me. I have no idea why you say this so I can't apply it to my own situation. There are many reasons why you might find it easier heads-up but because you don't specify them and give no indication of even having thought about them, I can't tell whether the reasons apply to my games. When you just fold your arms, stick your chin out and say "I'm right, so stick it", no one learns anything. Including you.
Andy.
PS As of Wednesday I am moving house so I do not have to commute to work, which should make me more even-tempered first thing in the morning :-)
Andy the stick it comment was not meant to be personal but was a bit intemperate.
I still like my take on this not for the math but for the chances of ME winning.
WOW
Andy the stick it comment was not meant to be personal but was a bit intemperate.
I still like my take on this not for the math but for the chances of ME winning.
Yesterday in a Omaha hi - I was chip leader with 4 remaining I was the best player in this group - by far and refused a chop - 3 bad beats later I was 3rd. And the worst player won. Final table is a sort of crap shoot anyway when it gets short handed bad players are actually playing better in these situations.
xx
Andy the stick it comment was not meant to be personal but was a bit intemporate.
I still like my take on this not for the math but for the chances of ME winning.
Yesterday in a Omaha hi - I was chip leader with 4 remaining I was the best player in this group - by far and refused a chop - 3 bad beats later I was 3rd. And the worst player won. Final table is a sort of crap shoot anyway when it gets short handed bad players are actually playing better in these situations.
Andy the stick it comment was not meant to be personal but was a bit intemperate.
I still like my take on this not for the math but for the chances of ME winning.
Yesterday in a Omaha hi - I was chip leader with 4 remaining I was the best player in this group - by far and refused a chop - 3 bad beats later I was 3rd. And the worst player won. Final table is a sort of crap shoot anyway when it gets short handed bad players are actually playing better in these situations.
Andy the stick it comment was not meant to be personal but was a bit intemporate.
I still like my take on this not for the math but for the chances of ME winning.
Yesterday in a Omaha hi - I was chip leader with 4 remaining I was the best player in this group - by far and refused a chop - 3 bad beats later I was 3rd. And the worst player won. Final table is a sort of crap shoot anyway when it gets short handed bad players are actually playing better in these situations.
Rounder, I know you play a lot of tournaments, but have you also played a lot of satellites? They are a rather different creature, because typically only the winner gets anything (this refers to 1-table satellites more so than multi-table satellites, since multis often feature multiple winners).
This being the case, you have to win every chip to win anything, and I am pretty confident that among equally-skilled (and competent) players, there is no significant difference between headsup with half the chips and multiple opponents where you have half the chips.
However, in the real world, there are frequently differences, and I find that those differences give me an edge if it is still multihanded.
For example, when they get really short-stacked, some players just give up mentally. Since I'm the big stack, I'm doing plenty of attacking, and I am more likely than my other opponents to be the recipient of those chips that are played suboptimally.
As another example, most satellite players are tournament players. However, some of them play few satellites. And, they often seem to carry over too much of their tournament strategy into the satellite. As we all know, survival is important in a tourney, and sometimes you fold your blind in a spot where you think defending might (marginally) be the better play. Some players take this approach too far in a regular tournament, and fold too much when they get short-stacked. When these same guys follow this same approach in a satellite, they are making a huge error. I have frequently seen players put up 1/3 or 1/2 of their chips in the big blind, and then fold to a raise when short-handed. This is typically a huge error, as the raiser doesn't need to have a big pair to raise, so your cheese hand is better off calling than folding. To make a long story short, I often find that I can get away with stealing more than I should be able to, because even though it's a winner-take-all satellite, some guys continue to play as if the difference between 3rd and 2nd place matters.
So, unlike Rounder, I would rather face 4 short stacks than 1 equal stack in a satellite. That doesn't mean Rounder is wrong, but if he's right, it's for reasons particular to his skills and abilities, not because everyone would be better off heads-up.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
"That doesn't mean Rounder is wrong, but if he's right, it's for reasons particular to his skills and abilities, not because everyone would be better off heads-up."
My point exactly.
Andy.
I agree with both of you guys and I have played a lot of satellites - It is my favorite format bar none.
With 4 other opponents way to many things can happen to make the swing go against you - how about this.
You have AA on the button and call 4 all in raises the suited KQ wins all the chips and now you have $8500 and the other guy has 12,500. How do you like them apples.
No, I am sorry way to many varables out there I like playing One guy for ALL the marbles rather than playing a lot of hands to get heads up maybe the underdog.
You have AA on the button and call 4 all in raises the suited KQ wins all the chips and now you have $8500 and the other guy has 12,500. How do you like them apples.
Wait a minute. You get all your opponents all in with AA and you don't think this is good for you?? Against 4 random hands you'll win with AA a lot, and if any of those players also have an ace your chances are even better.
Rounder wrote: >You have AA on the button and call 4 all in raises the >suited KQ wins all the chips and now you have $8500 >and the other guy has 12,500. How do you like them >apples.
Of course I don't like losing with AA, especially when all the money went in preflop. But, how about this:
You have AA on the button and call an all in raise by the suited KQ who wins all the chips and now you are broke because you started the hand with even chips. How do you like them apples.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Let's say we are looking at a mathematics problem. Instead of human players, let's say they are all computers with the same program. Then it does not matter what the chip distribution is between the five players. Maybe, some math wiz here can prove it.
No Limit Holdem Tournment. Standard payout for 9 places. Down to two tables, each with nine players. Blinds at $100/200. They may or may not increase before I post again. Players involved are Button ($8000), SB (me with $1700 after posting), and BB ($2000 after posting).
Action: All fold to the Button who raises to $800. I hold KJ offsuit in the SB. Do I call, fold or raise all in?
Reads: Button has been aggressive against small stacks. He has built his stack by calling with holdings such as QT or 89s and hitting. He is willing to come in with relatively mediocre holdings when here is no chance that another big stack can be involved in the hand. The BB has not played a hand in the 20 minutes or so that we have been at the same table. I do not believe he will call unless he has a monster. Button will definitely call any raise I can make.
Other considerations:1) I will probably have to double up at least once to make the final table, 2) the other short/medium stacked players in this tournment usually become much more aggressive about raising from early position, 3) the button is in a steal position and 4) I still have a little time to find a hand if I fold.
Thanks, Calvin
You don't call unless you plan to commit the rest of your chips regardless of what comes on the flop. If you raise, he gets 4-1 odds on the call (900 call to a 2800 pot), which he would be correct to do with any hand. Raise only if you want called. A fold would be "correct", but frankly, if I had a strong read that he was on a steal, I might make the call, then move it in on the flop regardless of what comes. A moron who might call you with anything before the flop is often much more hesitant to commit any more money after the flop. Just realize that K-J isn't much of a hand, even against some piece of cheese like 9-6.
Earl is on track. I would guess, given your description, that you're more likely to be ahead than behind here, so if you're willing to gamble, this isn't a bad time to do it.
I also like Earl's idea of just calling, then betting the flop no matter what. Your hope here is that you can get him to fold a weak hand that missed the flop, so he doesn't catch a pair on the turn or river to beat your KJ no pair. Also, this play looks even better if there is some chance that he'll fold a better hand after the flop. For example, if you do this play, will he fold a hand like Ad2d after a flop of Qh6h7s? If so, then the play becomes MUCH better than going all-in preflop.
The only flop I wouldn't bet all-in on would be if you flop something so big that you want him to call. Then, I would be prepared to check the flop and turn, and not bet until the river. Hopefully, even if he has nothing, he will try to steal before then. However, if you wait to the river, he might fold more readily, since if he has nothing, he also has no draw anymore. So, against some opponents, you'll be more likely to get a call on the flop than on the river (of course, if this is the case, then we need to rethink our play of just calling preflop and betting all flops).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks for the advice about just calling then raising. I really did not seriously consider just calling because I wanted to put as much pressure on the BB to fold as I could. In this case calling and raising on the flop might possibly have saved the day as he had Kh9h and did not hit his nine until the turn.
Calvin
I am planning on entering my first serious tournament this weekend. It starts out limit with unlimited rebuys until an optional double rebuy at the break, soon after which it becomes NL. I don't know the payout format yet.
So my questions are: 1. Could someone summarize the changes I will have to make in my regular ring game play to adjust for tournament play? 2. If I can afford it, rebuying's good, right? 3. How should the change from limit to NL affect my game? 4. And should it reach this point, what should I look for in a deal?
Niels - There are more knowledgable people out there than me, but here are a few ideas.
"1. Could someone summarize the changes I will have to make in my regular ring game play to adjust for tournament play?"
Play tighter. A chip saved is the same as a chip won.
2. If I can afford it, rebuying's good, right?
Don't even play if you can't afford to rebuy.
3. How should the change from limit to NL affect my game?
Wow! What an interesting format! The strategies are very much different. Try to get some experience playing table stakes, maybe at a satellite, first.
4. And should it reach this point, what should I look for in a deal?
Depends on the game. Is it hold 'em?
Good luck!
Buzz
Niels - There are more knowledgable people out there than me, but here are a few ideas.
"1. Could someone summarize the changes I will have to make in my regular ring game play to adjust for tournament play?"
Play tighter. A chip saved is the same as a chip won.
"2. If I can afford it, rebuying's good, right?"
Don't even play if you can't afford to rebuy.
"3. How should the change from limit to NL affect my game?"
Wow! What an interesting format! The strategies are very much different. Try to get some experience playing table stakes, maybe at a satellite, before you jump into the deep water.
"4. And should it reach this point, what should I look for in a deal?"
Depends on the game. Is it hold 'em?
Good luck!
Buzz
I would say that, depending on the cost of the buy-in, you would be better off gaining No-Limit experience in the tournament before playing a cash game. The tournament will surely be cheaper.
Andy.
Agreed.
"1. Could someone summarize the changes I will have to make in my regular ring game play to adjust for tournament play?"
There will usually be a lot of loose play at the beginning of the tournament. Play your normal ring game. Tight and agressive. Take advantage of players that are playing to loose.
"2. If I can afford it, rebuying's good, right?"
If you feel you have played your hands correctly and have been beat legitimately, you should rebuy. Don't fall into the trap of playing loose since you can rebuy.
Furthermore, you should purchase the double add on in most cases. You may want to read Mason Malmuth's "Gambling Theory and Other Topics" for rebuy advice.
"3. How should the change from limit to NL affect my game?"
Most tournaments become no limit if you get short stacked. I suggest posting an example or how a hand is played on this forum and seaching the archives. You may want to read the No-Limit Hold'em section in Doyle Brunson's Super/System.
"4. And should it reach this point, what should I look for in a deal?"
Without a specific example it is difficult to answer this question. You may want to search the forum archives and read Mason Malmuth's "Gambling Theory and Other Topics."
Late in the tournament 20 left in 10 paid.
I am average stack $1500 mid position blinds 100/200 I have AAA3 (rainbow) there is a raise and I muck. It is the 1st Omaha Hi I have ever played and 2nt Omaha tournament. So I am a newby. All day it took better than 3 of a kind to win a hand and flush was average.
My thinking was the AA was no good with the chance of a set all but ruined If the 3 had bee suited with one of the A's I see the flop.
Comments:
PS: I went to the final table chip leader and placed 3rd.
even with the 3 suited its a fold for a raise. if it was a table i could steal pots at i might play it for a limp bet late position.
I wanted to ask for any input on this topic. In a big-bet tournament, frequently one player is all-in, leaving a small or sometimes empty side-pot. I have said in a previous post that I try to avoid these pots but sometimes you can't help it, you raise, someone calls all-in and then someone with a big stack calls as well.
How do you tend to play these pots ? I am torn between protecting my hand and trying to build the pot when I think I'm winning, and not risking all my chips when there may be no need (especially if a bet is only going to be called by a good hand, which is often the case). If the pot is 3, 4-way or more (this is quite common), a drawing hand can be good, but it's hard to get paid off when you hit. The whole problem is exacerbated if, like yesterday, I try a semi-bluff raise with something like (55)K in Stud and get 3 callers, one all-in.
If anyone can tell me the adjustments they make when someone is all-in, that would be a great help. NB One thing I have noticed is that, in the early stages, a large bet into an empty side-pot often indicates weakness rather than strength. This isn't a clever play, but they do it, bless 'em.
Andy.
If you are not in or near the money, you make the play that gives you the highest EV in terms of chips won/lost. If there is no side pot (or only a miniscule one), you obviously don't bother with a bluff, not even a semibluff. If the sidepot is of some significance, then you can bet for value, or as a bluff, to increase your EV in the side pot. Then, just wait and see if you win the main pot. In other words, for many situations, you can simply ignore the main pot, and play on for the side pot as if the all-in wasn't there. In this case, your play is similar to what you would do if the main pot were small.
However, betting or raising with a medium strength hand, in order to drive out apparently strong draws, is OK if it goes a long way towards increasing your chances of winning the main pot, as well as the small side pot.
For example (and we'll use stud, since that seems to be what you had in mind), let's say that it's 5th street, with a small side pot between you and another player, the third player being all-in for the main pot. You catch an apparent straight card that actually gives you 2 medium pair, and the other active player catches an A, which you think makes him 1 pair of Aces plus a 3-card flush draw. If you think there's a good chance he will fold, you should consider betting into his probable overpair, since this will greatly increase your chances of winning the pot, even though it may also increase the chances of the all-in surviving. Your goal isn't to knock out a player, but to increase your chip count, since we're still far from the money.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I play poker at the State Line casino in the small Nevada/Utah border town of Wendover, Nevada. They have three weekly tournaments on Monday (NL Holdem), Thursday (Omaha-8), and Friday (NL Holdem).
They pay three places as follows: 60% to first, 25% to second, and 15% to third. But here's the strange part: they stop the tournament when it gets down to three players and award places based on chip count. (They don't play it out.)
This leads to some very interesting strategy adjustments. Here is a situation that came up last Friday:
We are down to four players. Chip count as follows: Small Blind has 38 chips, BB has 3, UTG (me!) has 40, and the button has 8 chips. Blinds are 2-4, so the BB is all-in before the cards are dealt.
What hands do you play here? For a raise? For a call?
Assume (as I did) that although everyone else at the table understands the payout structure, nobody (but you) is really changing their strategy because of it.
Also, there has not been a whole lot of pre-flop steal-raising (compared to what you might expect 4-handed), and play has been somewhat tight-passive post-flop.
I will post the results of my hand as a reply, but I am really looking for general strategy here, not for analysis of my specific hand.
A recap:
Tournament stops when down to three players, with a payout of 60/25/15.
SB: 38 chips
BB: 3 chips
UTG: 40 chips <-- me!
Button: 8 chips
Blinds: 2-4 chips (putting BB all-in)
----------------------
First, I decided that I can't fold pre-flop, even if I get 72o or 32o, because if the button folds after I fold, the SB will (correctly) call with one more chip regardless of his hand. If he wins, the tournament will be over, and those three chips will push me down to second place by one chip.
I am dealt 65o and (only) call. Button folds and SB calls. The pot is big enough that if the BB is eliminated, the winner of the pot will finish first.
The flop: KK5 (about as good as I can get)
I bet about 15 chips, SB folds. BB turns over 84, and gets no help on the turn and river. I win the hand and the tournament! (Yay!)
------------------------
Now I think I probably should have raised pre-flop with my hand (no matter what I had), as I need to shut out the SB if at all possible. Only calling puts me in a bad spot if I completely miss the flop. What would I have done with my 65 if the flop was three overcards? (I think I would still have had to bet to drive out the SB, even if I knew I had no shot at the main pot.) What do the rest of you think?
Thanks in advance.
Matthew,
I think you gave the answer to your question about this one hand already in your second post.
But in general, Iīd try to win as many chips as possible early (I assume, with 3 players getting all the money, there arenīt more than 15 or 20 players), afterwards be agressive against the small stacks and play it just like a satellite. When the other players do not adjust their strategie to this payout structure, it will give you a big advantage.
Regards
m.a.
If you fold and the button folds, the SB has a freeroll, so it seems like you might want to raise semi-liberally in this specific situation, since even if the button doubles through on you you can't end up 3rd (unless the blind also wins, etc)
There is not a better feeling in the world that winning money in a tournament or just a live game. The question I have is, is there any way to not give away tells? I always find myself looking at my cards too much what is an easy way to remember them?
Remembering your cards is just practice. Assuming your game is Hold-Em it is not difficult to remember the values (7-Ten, King-Jack, pair of 4s) and only remember the suit if you have two of the same suit. It is better though to remember both ranks and suits if you can as it can be a giveaway to look at your cards again if three suited cards comes on the flop (this makes it clear you do not already have a flush). Although doing this on purpose when you have the flush can be a good reverse tell.
As for tells when you bet, try to keep a steady, even pose every time you bet whether you have the goods or not. Breathe evenly and always look in the same direction (I always look at the pot). This comes with practice as well.
Good luck,
Andy.
Quite often you will make hard decisions and spend some time looking at your hand. Since, you are aware of this, you should spend the same amount of time when you have a good hand like AK or AA. This will throw them off so when you do hesitate an experienced observer will not know for sure if you got the goods or not. Sometimes, if you're luck they'll think you're weak and you will win a big pot.
Good Luck
There arte ll left 10 get paid. I am on button and there is just one BB - 4 pass to me I have T$1600 blind is $800 and BB has $T400 left. If I raise it leaves me with T$400 if I win we are atht e FTable if I lose I still have a chance.
I have Q7o - what's the correct play here.
Q7o is a slightly better than average hand (almost 52% equity against a random hand). So, if the big blind will call with anything (which he should), you are getting very slightly the better of it. It sounds like you need to win some chips to have any serious chance at winning this thing, so why pass up an opportunity where you have the edge, even though a small one?
Also, what chance is there that this guy would fold his really garbage hands? If he will fold the really weak ones, then raising becomes the clearly correct play.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The play is to fold. Why risk getting nocked out when you don't even have to pay a blind. Let the sucker try and by the blind and get nocked out. Don't be the sucker
This advice is MUCH too simplistic, simply because it could be applied as written to every hand, even AA. I mean, even AA can lose, so why be a sucker and play it and risk being eliminated when you don't have to?
The real issue is how much edge, if any, does Rounder have if he plays this hand, and whether or not it is worthwhile to pursue that edge under the circumstances.
I think it may be worthwhile, especially if Rounder really is so far down that he has a LONG way to go to get back into contention for the real money. If this were the WSOP main event, it might be worthwhile giving up everything else just to survive into the money (since the last money finish there pays something like 12-20,000). However, Rounder appears to be so low on chips that he really can't afford to pass up a situation that has +EV, even a very risky one, in hopes of finding a less risky (but still +EV) situation in the next few hands.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
"Why risk getting knocked out". Because it substantially increases your chances of winning the tournament. If you play to win you won't make as many final tables but you will win more money. Consider the risk, yes. Consider the reward as well.
I think I play this hand (given a normal payout structure and only a small 10th prize)
Andy.
Greg is right I had put the bb in for 2 resons - he was a weak player and he couldn't bust me. IF I bust him I am at final table with T$3000 - I raised He had called after almost mucking with K5 I spiked a 7 on the river for the win - final table - it worked - THIS time.
Li'l Rounder - it is an experienced call here - a am careful but here under these circumstances I like this play.
And Andy thoughtful answer as usual.
here's the hand. I have 99 and the flop was 10, 6, and some rag. Nothing on the turn, I raise and everyone folds except one guy. he calls. there's an ace on the river. He won with A6. two pair. by all rights he should have folded. He stayed to see about getting an ace. He was lucky, he got it but usually dosen't. He was one of those that does it all the time. I guess I shouldn't have stayed in with 99, but it was just him and I and there was nothing on the flop. Why pay to keep an over card, when they don't always come? I guess it pays off when the over cards come, but all the time they don't so WHY KEEP THEM, after the flop?????
Pot odds and implied odds. Say you have a hand with only a 10% chance of improving to the winning hand. If the pot's already $500 and you've only got to put in $10 to call, of course you're going to chase. Things are even better if you expect to win some more bets once you're ahead.
Admittedly, this example is extreme, but you get the idea.
You're leaving out all the needed information. You don't even tell us if this is a tourney or not. Is it limit or NL? Was there a raise preflop? A bet on the flop? How many players at each stage. If a tournament, how far until the money, how big was everyone's stack?
The read I get from your post is that there was no bet on the flop, and then you bet the turn. If so, this guy had second pair, top kicker, and no one bet the flop. So, he figures there is at least some chance, maybe a good chance, he has the best hand. If not, he has 5 outs to improve. If that's the way the hand played out, he may have played it perfectly.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Maverick: Yeah Badge, it shows you don't know jack about this game. AK23 double suited is almost the best thing you can be dealt. AKs in holdem is much weaker by comparison...I wouldn't even play it UTG. If you can't appreciate this you better stick to 3-6, cause in any real game you'll get your ass handed to you.
Rowdy: $75 for Poker Probe? Badger you buy into this Caro loser's scam?
Doug: While AK23 is in the best 1% of hands, it still cannot overcome the casino vigorish.
Did I miss something here or did Dan just wake up after a bad dream and post this out of a clear blue sky???
I think Dan should bet the turn. Probably wins him the pot.
Bored with way to much time on my hands until the next tournament so here is a Scinfeld post about nothing.
A few comments at tournament tables recently I thought I'd share with you all.
Last night 3 weakish tightish players 2 bet pre flop. Flop came A J 9 rainbow turn 5 river 4 the flop was 3 bet turn and river both 2 bet.
Guy next to me says "someone has a straight" at the end.
I said I'll bet you $100 (quietly) there is no straight out there. He didn't take the bet. Sure eneough there wasn't Duh.
Different guy at the break we were talking about TJ I said TJ was once considered the best starting hand when hold'em 1st got popular then the books came out and killed that notion this guy says "what's the best hand now AK?." I said no AA then asked him if you knew the other guy had AA what hand would you want to have against him he says AK "suited". I "agreed" and we went back to the tournament.
Didn't we already have this discussion when I met you? Besides, AK does good against aces. Heh.
Were you at Gila last night? I was talking to the tourney director and he was saying that he's working to remove the W2's from the tournament payouts, and that it should be a done deal soon.
By the way, I got 2nd place last night, just thought I'd brag a little.
Super George. I am skipping the limit there and playing only the no limit. I was at the Fort last night.
Last night, down to 3 people...1st pays 6800, 2nd pays 3200, 3rd pays 2100. I have 32k in chips, small blind has 29k, and big blind has the rest (about 100k). Limit tournament, limits are 8k-16k.
I get dealt AKo on the button and raise to 16k. The SB thinks for a while and calls, as does the BB. Flop comes down KJT 3 suited. SB bets, BB raises. What is your play now? Realize that after the SB bet, he has 5k left in chips, and all I can do is call the bet all in. Well, I end up calling, and the action goes to the SB.
The SB thinks for a few minutes (literally). If he folds and I lose the hand he is assured of 2nd place. If he calls and the BB wins the hand, I get 2nd and he gets 3rd.
Now assume that you are the SB in this particular hand. You have QJ and 5k left in chips to call with, after you bet and the BB raised and the button called all in. What is your play and why?
I'll post results later.
Without doing ALL the math, I call with QJ here.
It would certainly appear that I need to improve to win. However, given the circumstances, it appears that you are the most likely to have the best hand, since you raised preflop (although you are in a steal position, you are also in a position to be patient and let me go broke first) and since you called 2 bets cold all-in. I don't think you'll call the bet and raise without something much better than QJ.
Since it appears to me that you're ahead, I only figure that there is something like a 1/3 chance, if that, of you losing to the big stack. So, if I fold here I am totally crippled, and not all that likely to creep into second.
If I call and lose, I only get 3rd. However, coming in second is only $1100 more, while first place is $4700 more. So, to give up (almost) all chances at first place here seems like a big mistake. If I call and win, I will be the big stack, with slightly over half the chips, and you will be eliminated or down to 6 chips. Either way, my chances of finishing 3rd are negligible, and my equity goes up to about $2900 over 3rd place money alone.
The big driving force here is the huge difference between 1st and 2nd, compared to the relatively small difference between 2nd and 3rd. Since I gain so much more by going for it (when I win), this more than offsets the fact that my chances of finishing second are (maybe?) higher if I fold.
Go all-in, and hope for an A, so if AQ if out there you can at least get half the pot.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
George
I wouldn't have called with the QJ in the sb anyway unless I put you on a steal and since I know you are an honest (cough cough) player I have to put you on a bigger card than I have and the chip leader isn't gonna let you steal anyway.
That said, IF I were in this situation I think the 5K is in the pot - I have 2nd pair and am openended looks like 13 outs to me and I could be in the lead assuming you have something like 88 which is possible. Outs=4As, 49's, 2Js and 3Qs.
On the other hand, since the bb chip leader is raising he has something maybe AQ but would surely reraised with this preflop (maybe not knowing the players).
Haw lets gamble - I bet my last 5K.
Do you think I have an obvious call with AK? My instinct at the time told me no, but I did.
Gee George,
I'd have them in in a flash. You are on top pair with best kicker. Knowing the crap some play in a 3 handed situation I like your chances.
My concern post flop is 2 pair by the bb. AQ is a possibility and so are any 2 paints. I'd be hoping he has AJ. But I think your all in is a good move here.
But what do I know.
Hey I'll see ya tonight.
I was pretty sure he didn't have AQ, as I think he would have reraised preflop with this...he was playing pretty aggressively. Two pair is what I figured his most likely hand was, with a possiblity of KQ or less possibly AK or QQ or AA or a set (all hands he probably would have reraised preflop with). But with KQ a decent possibility (being that this was the only hand I could logically put him on that I could beat), I figured a call on this notion alone was correct.
On a side note, they really make you play for 1st place there with the 1st place payout more than double the 2nd place payout.
I like this kind of payout structure. The tournaments I play in pay 45-25-15-10 per cent for the first four places. When it gets four-handed this is a great time to open up. Hanging on for third only gets you 5% while a win gets 35%, but a lot of people fail to grasp this and still play too tight.
Andy.
I agree...I like this structure as well. I dislike the trend in tournaments lately to want to pay more people, while taking money away from the top finishers.
The SB called with his QJ. Turn and river were 3's, the BB showed KJ to win the tourney, I got 2nd due to the SB's overcall.
OK, I've been convinced that it is always correct to rebuy if you get a better deal on the rebuy chips than on your original buyin. However, I have an opportunity to play in a tournament tomorrow with no entry fee and $15 rebuys. There is also an optional double rebuy at the break, which I'm told is generally necessary to have a shot at winning. Money goes to the top 3 at 50-30-20. When should I consider rebuying?
Any comments on the structure of the tournament would also be appreciated.
It depends how much money goes into the prize pool. There must be at least all the rebuy money plus $15 for each entrant in the prize pool for it to make any sense to rebuy. Otherwise you are losing EV by rebuying.
At least this is my take on it.
I've seen tourneys like this before. Typically, there is a prize pool prior to any rebuys. If this is so, then the size of that pool, in comparison to the number of people in the tourney, will determine whether a rebuy is a good deal or not.
However, I have also seen these tourneys where there is no "added" money by the casino per se, but instead a guarantee, let's say $1,000. Then, if there are sufficient rebuys, then the casino has to contribute nothing. I would avoid these type of freerolls, unless you intend to NOT rebuy at all, because those who rebuy freely are essentially bankrolling those who do not rebuy at all.
Have fun, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
"which I'm told is generally necessary to have a shot at winning."
Is a false statement - I usually have my best result when I don't rebuy. Pick a number - mine it T$2000 at the break - if you are there don't rebuy if you aren't then rebuy.
I made a play in the SB that is certainly correct in live action, but is it correct in tournament play? There is an early position limper. The button raises. I make it 3bets from the SB with KQ of spades. I make this play primarily to drive out the BB. If I loose the limper that is an added benefit. The flop is KJ4. The J is a spade. I elect to check raise to drive out the limper if the button bets. The limper calls and the button now 3bets. Three of us see the turn which is a blank. It is checked to the button who bets. All call. A blank hits the river. The action is checked around. The button holds AA and wins. I held T1100 after posting T25 in the SB. I risk 1/3-1/2 my stack depending on the action to make this play. Do you feel the risk merits the rewards?
I think this is a bad play in a ring game, and therefore a bad play in a tourney as well. KQs, out of position, facing one limper and 1 raiser is not a great hand to play if these opponents are "typical". Of course, against the right players, this may be the optimal play, but not very often.
If you disagree with me, post your play on the Holdem board, and ignore the tournament aspect, and see what kind of responses you get.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Last night at the crap shoot they call a tournament at Gila river - one table had 49 rebuys on it's own. Wonder where most of the last table folks came from - any bets it was from this table.
I was at a fairly tight - by this tournaments standards - most all of us had from 1000 to 2000 at the break. They sent us a new player who had 8500 with him more than the entire chip count on out tight little table.
Bad tournament for a serious player.
That should be a very profitable tournament for the serious player. Not only is there terrible, loose play, which the proper strategic adjustments will give a high advantage against, but the bad players in a rebuy tournament put in more than their share of the prize pool (as opposed to a freezeout where everyone pays the same).
That is what you think.
This is a zoo.
It's like playing AA against 8 opponents. Sure, you don't win often, but whe you do... Wow!
I don't play for the odds to even out over 10 million hands I play for this hand or this tournament.
That thinking is fuzzy as DS likes to say.
Ever wonder why there are so many busted poker players? They probably think AA is a fav against 8 players too.
I don't play the lottery eigther.
I want to see what you think.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
rounders right. aa against 8 players you are about a 2 to 1 favorite to go broke if you go all in. however you will have 8 times your money those times you win. i guess if its all the money you have and they will now take away your house and that will cost you too much then its a clear fold. those that believe in luck may want to fold if they think this might be a bad time in their lucky cycle or such. or those that crack at having a good hand beat should of course throw away any good hand rather than take the pain. so you see that there can be many reasons to fold aa when you are having multiple opponents. as for me ill play.
Ray AA is a fav but not 2-1 here and you know it.
Rounder, i said AA will be 2 to 1 to go broke.
AA will win about 30% of the time in an eight handed pot if all go to the river, even more since if betting is left most will fold, although it will win the most(money) when all are all in but will win a slightly smaller % of the time. the money you make with AA is a large % of your yearly profit in limit holdem.
I was talking about tournament poker and 8 callers.
Not the long run.
I like AA in shorter fields in NL for obvioius reasons. 30% hold up just isn't good eneough for me if it is that high with 8 seeing the flop.
Depends what you are comparing it against. Loose aggressive players are more dangerous than weak tight players. If they're very loose then you have to adjust your play accordingly - you've got to be flexible. See 21st century edition of HPFAP, loose games section.
All the same, this has to be a profitable situation in the long run.
Andy.
I've got nothing to learn from that book on this subject. Something comes over these guys and they become maniacs.
I agree with Dan. The swings will be huge, but the average profit should still be high.
Better than playing against a bunch of tourney pros.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Okay, I'll grant this tourney is theoretically profitable but... Isn't Rounder correct that it is going to be near impossible to win when so many chips have been poured onto that table, but you're stuck with the tight players for the forseeable future? Or is it easier to catch up than I think?
It's easier to catch up than you think, and it depends why all those rebuys were made.
In most instances, a table with lots of rebuys means a table full of overly loose players. Most of these players will continue to play like that after the rebuy period. This means that they are simply not playing well, and will often get picked apart a little (or a lot) at a time by the better players. Sure, they will bust a few of those players on the way, and sometimes their luck will hold and they will the whole thing. In the long run, you will make money from them.
It is amazing how fast things change near the end of a tournament, also. I have played in NL HE tourneys where the table leader changed almost every hand. Someone who has only a small stack need only win 2, maybe 3, times, and they are the big stack. So, if you just continue to play well, and can stay ahead of the blinds, then don't worry about how big those other stacks are, you have time to let your skill make you the money favorite.
Also, just because someone who rebuys a lot might also makes the money a lot, doesn't mean they're a winning player. Sometimes, in these smaller field events, a guy will finish in 5th place or so, and not make a profit. He rebought so many times he has to finish in the top 3 to come out ahead, maybe. So, just rebuy when you need to, and continue to play a good, solid game, and you'll have the edge, whether or not you're at the table full of big stacks.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Easier said than done - I play with this same bunch in no rebuy tournaments and usually come out on top - I guess I can't play a bunch of maniacs as well as a bunch of tighter players.
I still think these are crap shoots.
Greg see my new format post I'd like your opinion of it.
Mike
We had one guy on Wednesday at our table rebuy 17 times. And I don't even think we were the 49 rebuy table. Needless to say he was pumping dead money into the game.
Geo. It is a wonder to behold - our 1st hand there were four all in QQ was the best hand she was called with 55 77 TT - how that for aggressive play BTW the QQ was the 1st one all in.
Forum,
Getting ready for Tunica and would like some feedback on 2 hands. Playing 4 handed mini-tournaments late last night. Buy-in for $20 and 1 $10 rebuy allowed. Starting with 10-20 blinds that double when 1 person eliminated. Starting with $1500 in chips.
Hand #1: I'm first to act with A6s and bring it in for $50. Get called by button(solid player) and BB (decent player). Flop is A 5 7 rainbow. BB checks and I fire $150 in pot. Solid player thinks a little and calls. At this point I feel like he has an ace and is wondering about his kicker; With two pair he would have made a small raise or probably would not have hesitated in calling. The turn is a deuce. I check to see where I'm at and if I can get a read. He checks behind me rather quickly and I'm sure he doesn't have an ace. He might have 6-8s or 89s or is slow playing a monster like 55 or 77. The river is a 6 making the final board A 5 7 2 6... I have aces up and first to act. The pot is now $460. I bet $250 and he raises me $500. The pot is now $1460. the pot is laying me 3-1.
I have invested $450 in this pot. If I call and win I have most of the chips and have knocked out my toughest opponent, but if I lose my toughest opponent has the lead but I'm still alive with $1000. Opinions are welcome.
Hand #2
2nd tournament of night. We started this one with $2500 in chips and I have one the 1st few pots. I am speeding a little and putting the pressure on. I have made a couple of bold moves and shown down a few bluffs recently.
I pick up the J2d in the small blind. Tough opponent is still on my left. I call the $10 and we all see the flop of 7 8 10 with the 8 and 10 of diamonds. I check the flop and tough opponent bets $50. Everybody calls. The turn is the 9s making me the high end of the straight. I think for a second to make it seem I'm putting on a play and bet $200. Solid player calls and weak tight calls making the pot $880.
The river is the Ace of diamonds making the final board 7 8 10 9 A with 3 diamonds. I am pretty sure that my solid opponent has a big hand to call the four card straight that was present on the turn so I check. My opponent sits and thinks and says"I'm just trying to figur out how much you'll call and then goes all in. I have only seen him go all-in twice before and they were both monster hands! What do I do? Once again I have the chip lead and will have a monster lead if I win this pot or I can lose back the chips I had won if I lose. I'll post the results of these two hands after a few responses. Thanks
Austin B.
Hand one: think you have been successfully trapped - if this guy is as good as you think. There are a bunch of hands he can have that you can beat chip postion and all things considered a call here is appropiate.
Hand 2:
I ignore jerk-off comments like this. You have a call here, I'd have made a big bet at the pot here say $500. You can be facing just about anything with the bb getting in for free.
I don't really like the way you played this one, both of these guys are on draws If you are in luck they are both on straight draws.
Whatever advice I or anyone gives you may be great, or terrible, and no one else can really say otherwise.
You've got 2 situations here that are driven almost 100% by who the opponent is, and what hands HE is capable of playing in each spot. I can think of many regulars I know who I would call instantly (or raise) in either spot, and others who I would fold to in a second. Against many, it would be a guessing game, with one guess or the other usually being clear.
Since you started with 4 players, I presume that these are winner-take-all events. As such, your goal is to win ALL the chips, not to survive to 3rd or 2nd with a short stack. So, in each case, I would do my best to put the tough opponent on a group of hands, and estimate his chances of each holding. What percentage of these hands can I beat, and what will I lose to? I then look at the size of the pot, and compare it to the size of the bet. If you're getting 3:1 on the call and think you'll win more often than that, call. If not, fold.
The hard part is figuring out which hands the tough player might have, and how often he might have each hand. The math you do afterwards is the easy part.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The first seems like an obvious pass but not knowing the player I have no idea what to do in the second situation.
1st hand: I misread my opponent having an ace and it cost me. I checked the turn and the 6 on the end gave him a straight (89) I bet any significant amount on the turn and I take it right there.
2nd hand: I decided there was no way to pass in this situation and called his all-in bet. He had 79d for a flush. He had flopped a pair a pair and straight flush draw and made 2 pair on the turn and straight flush draw but his only out was the 6d and I had him locked up even though I didn't know it. Thanks for the responses.
Austin B.
Hand 1:
I would have check-called the river as I hate it if I bet and he raises. Making the 2nd pair doesn't really do much for you here as he was either drawing (and can't call a river bet) or slow playing a set. Now you are in quandry. I would lean towards folding.
Hand 2:
You have a Jack kigh flush, right? Can't tell whether you have Jd2d or Jx2d. If you have the J of diamonds in you hand, I think I make the call. The only hand I see a solid player calling with on the turn that you fear here is the KdQd. And even that would be unlikely since he would have to fear that someone was drawing to a nut flush. I think its more likely that he as trapped himself with a hand like QdJx, and doesn't figure you for a flush given the action on the turn.
I play pot limit all the time (UK based)and I wish there were more pot limit posts like this as have a lot to learn. For what is worth:
More than anything your post illustrates the perils of being out of position in pot limit.
Hand 1 - I think that he has improved on the river and the only credible improvement would be a hand of 66. A solid player would not call on the flop hoping for an inside straight.
Hand 2 - I am intrigued by the remark - does he mean I am trying to work out how much you will call because he has a nut flush or because he is trying to bluff - I would go for the latter.
Hand #1. Why would you play such a piece of cheese -- particularly in early position?
Hand #2. Same junk .. you are specializing in getting into trouble. Junky hands always lead to difficult decisions.
Earl,
A6s is a monster against 3 random hands! Were playing 4 handed here. You can't sit around and wait for big pocket pairs before you move your chips! How many tournaments are won with great holdings? Not very many. The 2nd time as I posted I was in the blind and the flop hit me pretty hard. Re-read the post!
Austin B.
I agree with your assessment of not waiting, however the relevant point is that you are out of position on both hands. Still, even if finding the Ace as a marginally playable hand, I find no excuse to play J-2, particularly given your stack size. One other point, the A-6 would've been more playable in NL where you could've put some early pressure on. PL is a game more for hands that develop, rather than for hands with initial strength.
Earl,
Are you saying not to call the extra $10 out of the blind with the j2d or saying to dump it after the flop comes 7 9 10 w/ 2 diamonds. If your saying don't call the extra $10 I will go along a little bit but I think the most important thing in PL is seeing a lot of flops cheaply and if you hit it hard you can either trap your opponent or play at him aggressively depending on his style of play. If you are saying to drop after that flop then I don't agree with you at all. Now if that flop comes and my solid player bets his whole stack then I obviously have to evaluate his and my situation and what exactly to do but when I'm doing the betting and in control of the hand with not much resistance I like my chances with a gutshot straight and a jack high flush. Remember, the Ace of diamonds was the river so I ended up with the 3rd nut hand. I thought about folding but I think I made the correct move on this hand. I mis-read my opponent on the first hand and I payed for it. Thanks for your response.
Austin B.
Casino Arizona has come up with this new format to combat the silly puddy one at Gila River.
What do you guys think.
$15K added if 200 sign up. Day 1 Tues buy in $100 no rebuys (yet) I think T$500 to start - Limit HE until 1/2 of the players are knocked out. 30 Min rounds and progressive blind increases starting at 10-20 to 50-100
Day 2 $100 rebuy for T$1000. Reseating players NL HE - payout
max players 30 - 3rd table $400, 2nd table $600 and 38% for 1st down to 2% for 10th.
I like this format on the face of it. Certainly better than the alternative on Tues and Wed at the other casino. Winner can win $13,300 not bad for a week night reservation game.
What days/times are they starting this?
Starting next Tues and Wed at 7pm must sign up from 5pm same day and you can only buy one entry so getting one for your a friend is out.
Rounder wrote: >$15K added if 200 sign up.
That's all I need to know. Sign me up.
It's not real clear to me exactly what the format is. I think I need to ask you to explain it more.
It appears you're saying that you play limit HE the first day until half the field is gone, and that there are no rebuys the first day. Then, you come back the second day, and can take a rebuy at that time. You then play NL HE until a winner is determined? Is this correct?
If this is the format, then you should always take the rebuy, just because the casino has added 15K. You need to increase your chances of winning this added money, so I'm sure it's a good investment to always rebuy, almost no matter what your chip count is at on day 2.
The only problem I see with this format is that you can't sign up to play day 1 unless you know that you'll be available on day 2. And, what happens if you get sick, your wife gets sick, etc., between the end of day 1 and the start of day 2? You've sunk your money into the tourney, and maybe can't come back to compete. Still, with 15K being added, I'd take that small chance of an unexpected occurrence knocking me out of day 2 play.
You guys are lucky as can be, having a casino full of weak players, and the casino gives you this kind of free money in addition. We will never get such generosity out of the rooms here in CT, they are just too busy to justify such an expense (i.e., they don't need to give away big promotions, they will be busy no matter what).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You got the format Greg right they are gonna do this every tues wed night. The add on comes from the jack pot pool. I agree on the add on thinking. The add on is also $1000 in chips where as the 1sty C note buys $500 which makes it automatic.
Mike
I played a NL HE tournament a couple of nights ago in Vienna. It was down to about 4 tables out of 10 and the play was fairly aggressive. A lot of people were brining it in big with any pair. I am slightly less than middle stacked with T23000. The blinds are 2k-4k. At a full table, someone in middle position with about T17000 brings it in for T7000. My read is that he is a semi-agressive player looking to make a move. I look down to see AKo, my best hand in a while if you don't count small pairs. Now I know that big slick is a controversial tournament hand, but is this a good time to make a move for some chips. At this point, I'm feeling a little handcuffed. What's the right play? I'll post my action a little later.
I like making big bets with AK, but I hate calling them.
Heads up you are a slight dog to it AA or KK and you are a big dog.
If you move it all in, he has to call with anything (10k left looking at a 30k pot). You're probably better off just making the call here (leaving you with 16k in case you miss).
Magilla - You didn't say what your seat was. I presume you are either near or on the button or in one of the blinds.
Fold it if you are near or on the button. If you raise, the original bettor is backed into a corner and almost forced to call. If you just call, you're risking your chips needlessly. Sure, some of the time your read will be right, but when it isn't you end up losing most of your stack. Even if your read is correct, you may get outflopped, and even if you don't get outflopped you may be playing heads up against a small pair and thus be about 50-50. You don't win tournaments by calling with many 50-50 hands unless you're very, very lucky. No reason to gamble here, considering your stack size, even though you will have postion for the rest of the hand. I don't think it is a difficult decision here.
If you are the big blind, the situation is more complicated. On the one hand you can't be letting people put moves on you when you are in the big blind, especially when holding a decent hand like big slick. On the other hand, you're going to be out of position for the rest of the hand. On balance, if you are in the big blind, I think you call here and then come out swinging after the flop, whatever it is. What tips the scales here is your read of your opponent. You have to trust "the force" when it's a difficult decision. :-)
Just my opinion.
Buzz
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Steve - You have the answer, somewhere in your brain, for winning tournaments, but I don't think this is it.
You seem to be advocating a win or lose (not place or show) strategy here. My humble opinion is it's still too early, that Magilla doesn't need that homer yet.
On the other hand, maybe it is time. Probably many of Magillas opponents at this stage in the tourney are playing too cautiously, trying to ease into the money. Maybe Magilla read correctly that this particular opponent at this time is trying to take advantage of the caution of other players.
With a pair of aces or kings I can see the move. But big slick?
Magilla figures to be playing this hand heads up against an aggressive opponent who may be on a steal. If the aggressive opponent has AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, or KT, then Magilla dominates his opponent and is a big favorite. However, if the opponent has aces or kings, Magilla is dominated himself, while if the aggressive opponent has any pair Magilla is a slight underdog. I make it 72 possible hands that Magilla dominates, 6 hands Magilla is dominated, and 66 hands Magilla is an underdog by a tad.
All right, there are a lot of other hands the aggressive opponent could have, but it doesn't matter if Magilla is even a 2 to 1 favorite over all of them. If hes a two to one favorite, then one time out of three hes going to LOSE and be in such poor chip position that hell probably be gone soon. If Magilla goes all-in three times, each time as a two to one favorite, then the odds are Magilla will lose the tournament.
Im reminded of John Dalton, the brilliant English chemist who, based on his law of multiple proportions, proposed the atomic theory, the basis for the science of chemistry. Later John Dalton was very wrong when he insisted that water must be made up of one atom of hydrogen per one atom of oxygen, and also very wrong when he insisted that equal volumes of gases did not contain (approximately) the same number of molecules. Oh well, one out of three wasnt bad for John Dalton (and maybe not for Steve Badger either).
However, for Magilla to take a one out of two (even better than one out of three) all-in shot unnecessarily at this stage in a tournament seems unwise strategy. On the other hand, if hes right AND LUCKY hell double his stack size here.
Is there something Im missing here?
Buzz
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Buzz, give me a one-handed poker player.
Thanks for the advice. I neglected to mention that I was on the button. Also, the other guy brought it in for T8000 (double the blinds) not T7000.
I decided to reraise him all-in thinking there was a chance I could win the pot right there and a chance he was holding AQo. At worst I thought I would face a medium to small pair, not KK or AA. He hesitated but decided to call me and flipped over a pair of nines.
Unfortunately, the board brought no help and I was down to my last chips. About 10 minutes later I was out. As they say, in order to win a tounrney, you have to beat big slick and win with big slick. I could do neither this time.
Fortunately, a lot of NL players still play big slick in the manner you did. As you saw, even against that middle pair, you were getting called -- and you were no favorite.
I agree nothing makes me happier than to see AK call my raise when I have a pair.
A lot of things make me happier but I am not sad to see it as I know I am the fav.
point taken and understood. :)
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
ugh, i find i have to take Badgers side.
you do have a chance he will fold. and will fold the hands you want him to fold. you may have him in a bad spot you may be a slight dog not very likely you will be against aa or kk
if however you were sure he had a smaller pair and not any one of many hands(maybe you read minds i dont) the right play would be to fold or call and bet all your chips if a jack or queen came( if you thought he might fold) and check and trap if an ace or king came.
In this situation, I like to move all in pre-flop with AK and let the other guy make another decision. I am a firm believer in establishing wide all-in parameters in order to invite play at a later time. When they see you move with less than the "Holy Grail", they tend to call you with less, paying off your better holdings. AK is the perfect holding for getting them to view you incorrectly. People who move with less than big pairs tend to get lots of action; those that don't, don't.
OK I'm a bit late on this one but some points ...
1) You do not have all day to wait for a better spot, it's costing 6K per round and you only have 22K.
2) Do you think your opponent will slow-play AA or KK ? The more likely it is he will slow-play, the less likely that he has one of the only two hands you really fear.
3) The fact that if you lose the hand, you still have some chips (however few) is a factor. If losing the hand knocks you out you would have more reason to fold.
All of which means I would play - I'm still trying to get my head round Earl's call and bet the flop plan, I think you need a good read on your opponent that he will fold a pair to, say, a single overcard (which I wouldn't for 10K with 30K in the pot). There seems to be a danger that he will fold when he's beat and call when he's winning in which case you just win less when you win. So I go all-in.
Andy.
Pot Limit tournament blinds 8k, down to last 4. 15 minutes left (10 hands?) - big stack has 300k, I have 80k, another stack has 80k, small stack 40k. Prize money 1st 4500, 2nd 3000, 3rd 1500, 4th 400.
In this situation is it worth considering conceding 1st to the big stack and working out a deal between the small stacks even though over the long term the big stack wins slightly more than he should?
If Ist place is conceded does anyone have any views on how much -ev results?
(Before you ask -yes, I did end up 4th, hence the question)
never give up first place money. collectively the 3 of you had 40% of 1st place money plus the chance he might not even get 2nd place.
Hard to figuer without knowing the skill level of the big stack BUT anyone experienced would know he is not a lock for 1st place He could be 3 hands away from small stack.
If you want to make a deal make sure he ponys up some money - pot is $9400 - skill level with the other players and your confidence is really an important factor. You'll get some real drawn out math on this thread but it is your read of the situation. Actually I'd play it out with this mix of money involved.
Yesterday at the final table big stack didn't want to talk about a deal I was small stack 1.3 the size of the next stack (NL HE) in 2 circuits I was big stack and took him out.
I won the tournament from there and did a save with the guy I was heads up with but basically got 1st place money and all the chips.
You make an important point. Particularly in PL or NL, with 80k to 300k, he was only 2 hands from having a fair fight. Further, the blinds are only 10% of the 80k stack size. Certainly still plenty of time to maneuver, and the 300k is far from being out of jeopardy. If the big stack wants to deal, I'd be agreeable, but not to concede first place outright. Otherwise, I'd smoke it on in there and make the big stack play "jeopardy" poker.
A deal based on chip count would tend to favor 1st and 4th, while 2nd and 3rd would probably be in a -EV position. There are myriad ways of making a deal, but in the past, this numbers discussion on RGP has devolved into a long "fun with numbers" exercise. To my way of thinking though, the long and the short of it is that the deal favors those with the most chips and those with the least chips. Others will argue that those with the least chips have the least to lose. In a deal though, 4th should've gotten between $1,000 and $1,200 instead of $400.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Thanks for your comments - the way things worked out confirms what you say. The big stack can't resist a gamble and after I went out he took on one of the other stacks and lost - he then agreed to a deal.
Dave,
When you say "15 minutes left", is that 15 minutes left at 8K or 15 minutes until the end of the tournament when positions are allocated on chip count ? If the latter (this rule can come into play in my tournaments so maybe it does in yours too), that will possibly change the above answers (I don't believe this is common in the US).
Andy.
Yes, 15 minutes to a chip count on which the placings and money are allocated.
However, I posted the original question before I knew the final outcome. My perception of the situation was definitely wrong and the big stack did not think he was safe. He kept playing until he got into trouble.(K8o vs 44 - flop 448 = trouble)
This being the case a deal could have been struck.
I will again advocate for what I think is the best way to make a deal. Estimate your chances of finishing in each remaining position, multiply that percentage by each prize, add it up, and that's your target for a fair deal. My estimates for where each player will finish are:
Chip leader: 60/26/10/4 => worth 3646. you and other medium stack: 16/32/32/20 => worth 2240. short stack: 8/10/26/56 => wroth 1274.
If you think the numbers should be different, I can't really argue with you. The first place figures are based upon the percentage of chips each player holds. The rest are based upon my personal guesses. Change them to reflect your guesses, and derive your own figure. It probably won't be all that much different.
Once you have this figure, start the deal-making process. Ask the short stack how much he wants to give it up? You'll be surprised how little some will ask for. For example, if the short stack says "700.", you now have 574. worth of negotiating room for use between you, the other second place stack, and the big stack. If the big stack wants more than he deserves, that's not necessarily a problem, as long as the extra money doesn't come from your end of a fair deal, right?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I will be at the Foxwoods Spring Tournament beginning 7 april. Anyone else from here going? Not you Fossilman I know you'll be there. See you for coffee. Maybe the guy with the old Green bay hat will join us.
Vince
Vinny, to much happening out here - in the West - but when I move back to Chicago I will be spending more time on the east coast. Probably move back some time in the summer.
Mike
Vince!
I'll only be up there from NYC for the 7,8, and 9th. But I plan to make my trip productive by winning the $100 + rebuy NLH event on April 8. Don't try to stand in my way as I have been flopping well so far this year.
Michael
Michael,
Fat, Bald, Italian. Might have a Bulls hat on. May be begging Fossilman to let me come to his house. May be standing next to Paul Feeney laughing about Ray Zee. I will not try and stand in your way. I prefer sitting on my fat ass when I play poker. I have been flopping in a well all year also. They call me the Whale O the Well back here at Foxwoods. Paul is the big nerdy looking engineer with a faded Green Bay hat.
Vince.
I plan to play in at least the 1st NL tourney (on the 8th) and hope to meet some 2+2-ers there, if I can find out who you are!
Just look for the big guy with a bunch of fossils (literally) on the table in front of him. If it's not me, you've found a rare imposter. Please feel free to say hi, and I'll be glad to chat with you away from the table or between hands. However, please don't feel slighted if I ignore you during a hand, or during a tourney. If there's enough interest, we can have a 2+2 semi-official gathering at some point. Heck, if enough of you want to do it, we can have a 2+2 only satellite tourney at my house (7 miles from FW).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Count me in. I'll be there Friday night (April 7) through Sunday.
-Michael
"Heck, if enough of you want to do it, we can have a 2+2 only satellite tourney at my house (7 miles from FW)."
Count me in! Oh BTW -Fossil, I want the room next to the pool.
Vince
Count me in , too.
I will go back there some day again if and when the whole poker room is smoke free. In my place my representative Paul Fenney will likely be there. You can identify him by his plumpness and by the indecipherable spouting coming from his lips.
From now on at least all the tournaments at FW will be smoke free.
Beg,
I'll be there but undercover. Since Goat's Head Soup is sponsoring me to show up in his absence due to his inflammation in his posterior dorsi. Better known as "rectum borealis". Since I'm the East Coast Representitive for the "Head Borealis" I will be there under my late Uncle's name "CHUB FEENEY". Yes and Atlanta will lose again to the Yankees. KD=MTR, RB, and Aptitude.
CF
I just won my largest tourney yet in a 5-way deal. Basically, on my suggestion, we each took 5th place money + the remaining pool in proportion to our stack size. According to M & S and others, the chips in the shorter stacks are worth more than the chips in the large stacks. Therefore I thought this deal was in my favor since I had the largest stack. What I want to know however, is what is the mathematically correct method of making a deal? If I had a short stack and didn't want to make the proportional chip deal, what is a better alternative?
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I suggest that you look at the poker tournament section in my book Gambling Theory and Other Topics. There is much discussion here on deal making and exactly what the value of the chips really is.
"David wouldn't talk to me anymore. "
Like he talks to you now, huh!
Sure!
vince.
Worst deal I ever made was a chip equity deal 5 left (at last years senions event) some "name" palyers I was a close 2nd to the chip leader and the other 3 weren't even close. I had been sitting next to two of them for several hours and I thought I had them figured out. BUT I had been playing over 18 ours 7 in this tournament and it was 2am tired I half heatedly agreed to the split.
A few weeks later I ran into the smallest stack guy at a tournament and we discueed the chop and he felt HE got the bad end of the stick cuz "his chips were worth a lot more than the others" I think this guy - a well known tournament player - got the BEST of the deal.
I don't see the increased value arguement for small stacks vs larger stacks. Unless it is assumed the bigger stacks will throw them a little more liberally.
If I understand you correctly, the deal you made favours the large stacks so you did OK. Here's an example. Suppose there are 3 left (to simplify things) and the prizes are 4500-2500-1500. You have 50% of the chips. If you take 1500 each and split the remaining 4000 proportionally you will get 3500.
Your real equity is round about
50% x 4500 = 2250 + 33% x 2500 = 830 + 17% x 1500 = 250
Total 3330
Or put it this way - if you win you will have 100% of the chips. But you will only get 75% of the remaining prize-money after taking 1500 each.
Finally, to explain the short stacks being worth more, suppose A has 98% of the chips, B has 1% and C has 1%. Even if A is a lock for 1st place (which he isn't quite), his equity is 75% of the 4000 being played for. B and C both have half a chance at second place, their equity is 12.5 % each even though they have 1% of the chips.
All this would go out of the window in a winner-take-all situation. It's the proportional payout structure which makes the smaller stacks worth more.
Hope this helps,
Andy.
PS "If I had a short stack and didn't want to make the proportional chip deal, what is a better alternative?" - play poker.
See my post in the "Dealmaking -ev vs variance" thread below for the system I use. The only problem with my system is that it is NOT useful for laying out a deal with the other players. If you tried to do this, you would just get into arguments about whether you have a 26 or a 28% chance of coming in second (the devil is in the details type of problem). However, I use my system to determine what I want in a deal, and I never take less than this.
If you compare my system to the chip-count method, you will find that the short stacks always do worse, and the big stacks always do better, using the chip-count method. I will always propose a chip-count method when I am a bigger stack, as I know it favors me, and I know it is commonly accepted.
If you're the short stack and they won't give you what you think your chips are worth, then you either accept the lower amount as the price of reducing variance, or play on. Hopefully, you will win the next hand or 2, become the chip leader, and then say, OK, let's do a chip count deal.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
4 out of 10 tables remaining in a no limit hold-em tourney. A short stack two to the right of the button goes all in. I've got 9's on the button with a median stack -(blinds are about to raise and he's in bad shape) I call his all in (only about 1/4 my stack). small blind folds, the big blind calls.
Flop comes 6,6,10. big blind bets 1/2 his median stack. I haven't seen any overly aggressive moves from this player yet. What would you do? (To avoid any hindsight bias -I'll post my choice and the actual outcome later)
Fold - a big bet comming from a passive player in the blind when the flop is 66T - you are facing a monster and your 99 is beaten.
Does your answer change if he's an aggressive player?
Maybe not, he is screwed in the hand cuz he played it wrong pre flop.
you needed to reraise before the flop to knock out the blinds now you are beat(most likely) or bluffed. you may have been beat by a bigger pair which may or not have folded to your raise but your call killed you. this is another case where a fold is better than a call but the raise is right.
Yes, in hindsight raising pre-flop instead of just meeting the short stack all-in probably was the right move. My focus was on taking out the short stack - I made an assumption that the blinds would allow me to do that and stay out or just check to the river. anyway - I folded post flop and as it turns out I would have won the hand. Another 10 came on the river - the short stack had a pair of 3's. Big BLind- 5's. They split the pot. If I had re-raised all-in after the flop the big blind may have folded or called me and I could have eliminated 2 players. ALthough, I agree thats hindsight and folding was the right call. Question - what do you think about the play of the big blind? He accomplised bluffign me out - but what did he get - a few chips and failed to eliminate the short stack. With four tables left out of 10 wouldn't he have been better off if I had eliminated the short stack?
with 4 tables left id go for getting chips any way i could.
Until you are very close to or in the money (by close I mean within a couple of orbits), you should be much more concerned with winning chips than with eliminating players. Only when the money is imminent do you ever give up "chip equity" in order to increase the chances of knocking out an all-in player.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
There is this guy who has recently showed up at local tournaments. He seems to be a solid type but is always involved in floor calls and does a lot of ususual signaling when it is his turn to act or does these things in advance of his turn.
He "acts" innocent (and is affable) and dumb but I think he is sly like a fox. He likes to fain a raise and watch for reactions - he'll also throw in a big chip and say raise late which in this house is a call. He always has a hand full of chips when he does his action he'll put his hand out like he is gonna bet or raise then tap a check watching for reactions.
Any one of these things is nothing but putting it all together I think this guy is an angle shooter.
Any ideas???
ya, watch him for awhile and those times he does his stuff and soon you will have some good tells on him, then go ahead and break him. plus you get to win the money he conned the others out of.
I do all of that stuff on purpose so I can win. I'm surprised you noticed. I have to do something to make up for all the talented players that normally infiltrate those Gila River tourneys.
Oh George,
I'm not talking about you. This guy is a sly old fox and I have a bead on him.
Mike
Rounder,
why dont you follow George around and sit behind him in the games and bust him a few times so we can get a little rivalry going here.
George is a nice guy and a heck of a poker player.
I'd bust him as he would me given the chance but other than that I have nothing against him.
x
If they really don't want tournaments just say so and don't put them on, which would be better than the joke of a "tournament" they are running these days. I think they are trying to get them done in an hour and a half.
Here is the rundown. T$300 in chips 15 min rounds.
Blinds now go from (no $5-10) 10-20 to (they did away with the 15-30) 20-40 to 25-50 to 50-100 so in 45 min. you are playing for 100/200 with a starter stack of $300, what's up with this. Then at the final table a chip count prize is awarded no play, no deals, no poker just a split. OH it is also against the rules to look over at the other table when it is down to the last 2 tables.
The Fort tournaments are a joke and I won't be playing in any more of them unti lthey change their silly ways......
One table satellite. 4-5 players left. I have a medium stack and am not under immediate pressure to play a hand. UTG or 2nd to act makes a big enough bet that he is probably committed to the hand. Same for me whether I call or raise. I hold a small pair in one or the blinds up to 77 or 88. My read on the player is that he is aggressive and capable of being first in with any small pair or big Ace. Do I get involved or not?
I tend to pass on the hand, but wonder if I am playing fast enough in this type of event. With only 4 or 5 players left and the blinds increasing quickly, it seems like I might want to gamble earlier (gambling being defined as playing a hand where I expect to be roughly even money). Even though I steal my fairs share of pots, I often find myself shortstacked later on and still having to play in an even money type of hand anyway.
The negative to doing this is that given the position of the raise he is more likely to have a big hand and a loss will eliminate me. The positive side is that a win will gain me the advantage of becoming one of the big stacks and allow me to play accordingly. After all 5th pays the same as 2nd in this type of event.
Thanks, Calvin
I prefer to make "moves" of this type when the table gets down to 2-3 or 3-4 not 4-5. If the other players are overly aggressive I will let them wipe out each other.
There's a significant difference between raising with the middle pairs and calling with the middle pairs. Note that if you move in on someone that is pot-committed, it is nearly the same as just calling. I'm more inclined to play if I can make the initial move in with the hand and less inclined to play if I have to call. Another option is to call and make your move on the flop. Many players will dog hands on the flop that they would've called an all-in raise pre-flop.
In NL satellites, even if your stack drops to half-stack, it only takes a couple hands to become the leader.
Boomtown, Reno. Final table nl he,~48k in play. I start out as low chip person, so am somewhat happy to make it to 6. Blinds, 600/300 with 50 ante. I am in bb, folded to sb, largest stake, who has raised me 3 identical times in 3 circuits. First 2 times I have squat. This time I have K10o, with 3500 after posting blinds and ante. His rasie makes it 1500 to go. Call,fold, Raise??
I choose to call as Iwill be getting ~3:1, and will then push in if flop hits me. A re-raise is unlikely to get sb to fold as I have seen him call re-raises with marginal holdings (and hit, which was why he was the big stack), and folding seems too passive.
Flop is AQ3 rainbow and we both check. He has check-raised with some frequency (we had been at table~ 1 1/2hrs together). Turn is 8 and he bets enough to put me all-in and I fold. Gut-shot/K high did not seem enough to call.
This was only my second final table/nl tournament of any size, so any comments/suggestions would be appreciated. Gary
after the flop you have 2600 left and there is 3300 in the pot. no way does he have anything or he would bet. why would he give you a free card with so little more to win. you had the best hand maybe and should have bet all in and let him decide what to do.
First, I agree with Ray about the postflop play. Either he has a monster or nothing. He would likely bet with any 1 pair hand. He might be checking something like 22-TT (not including 33), afraid you just flopped something better, but that is the only way I see you being behind to a 1 pair hand here.
Preflop. I would opt for the reraise. KTo has about 60% equity against a random hand. So even if he calls with crap, you're a decent favorite. If he'll tend to fold all of his hands that aren't better than KT, then you still come out ahead by winning so often. The only time you come out behind is if you're wrong about his stealing, and he actually has good cards most of the time here. I think that's the real question here. Will the guy continue to raise every time (maybe until you play back at him), or is he being more selective now, because he knows you probably won't put up with this forever.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I played in two limit tourneys in the last two days and was amazing how easy it was to steal the blinds. Once the blinds got high enough where they really meant something, people started playing much tighter and I often stole on garbage hands. My feeling is that even if I don't win the blinds a bluff on the flop will often win the pot as well. What I'd like to know is, should I be stealing the blinds against short-medium stacked players more than 50% of the time with anything? If conditions are really tight is it correct to occasionally steal from early position with garbage? At what point should my own stack protection be more important than attempting to steal the blinds?
Here's a hand too: You are the chip leader at the final table with T23000, 9 players. Rounds are 45 min long. Blinds are 300-600. You are dealt QQ in early position and raise to T2000. All fold to the small blind who goes all in for T10000. Do you fold? I think this is a clear fold not only because you are likely beat by KK or AA and only have a slight edge vs AKs but because if you lost you would lose the chip lead and the rounds are long enough to get a better situation. Of course, the player called and lost to AA. No one but me seemed to think his call was very poor poker. Opinions?
If I have enough chips and I am on the button or close to the button and I have passive players behind me I will quite frequently raise sometimes without even looking at my cards. When my intuition tells me I should be raising if I don't look I am more likely to go for it. I will strictly do this in the later stages of the tournament when the blinds are significant and of course when nobody else has entered. I will not raise with garbage unless I have almost enough chips to bet the entire hand and I am up against the right players.
As far as the chip leader calling with QQ. Any player worth his/her salt lays down the Queens.
As for stealing blinds in limit Hold-em; I like to go for slightly more than my share. I like to defend slightly more than my share. Go too far either way and your more perceptive opponents will see and try to take advantage.
"Wenatchee" Max
Hey,
I was playing in a tournament today, and the following hand came up.
96 players started in the tournament, about 5 tables left, I have about T1800. We're playing 160-320.
In middle posistion, I look down and see pocket nines.
There is a raise in front of me, and a caller. I call. One other player calls. I put the raiser on something like AQ, or perhaps even worse (he was very short stacked, and needed to make a move before the blinds ate him up.)
I think I should have three-bet--that's my first question.
Anyway, the flop comes 6d-7c-8d. (I have the 9 of diamonds). Player in front of me bets, one call, I raise, and fourth player folds. Two other players call the second bet.
Turn comes Jh. Checked around.
River comes Js. Checked around.
I will post the results of the hand after a couple responses.
Thanks.
Max
My guess is that you are in deep shit. Three betting might have been the right thing, but what if he has a jack in combination with anything else (why not AJ vs. AQ?). Also, I think he was ready to take a stand (do or die). I think he was in till the river given his stack size and the blinds coming up. I would have tried to avoid a confrontation in the mid-stage and may have even tossed the pocket 9 given a raise and a call before my bet. Once the flop hits, you are probably tied in. Once the 2nd J hits on the river, you're in big trouble. One caveat here; I do not consider myself an experienced Holdem tournament player.
Raise pre flop? Maybe not in your position.
Does checked around mean no one bet the turn or river.
The way you chose to write this up is confusing to me.
You should have bet the turn and river. I like the 2nd J.
Rounder said:
>Raise pre flop? Maybe not in your position.
That's kinda what I figured--hence the call.
>Does checked around mean no one bet the turn or river.
Yes.
>The way you chose to write this up is confusing to me.
Sorry about that. Let me see if I can make it clearer. There was a raise in front of me by a very short stacked player. There was one caller between me and him, I called with pocket 9's, and one player called two cold behind me. The flop came 678, the original raiser bet, one player called, I raised, and the late posistion player folded. Jack came on the turn, no one bet. Jack came on the river, no one bet.
>You should have bet the turn and river. I like the 2nd J.
I think you're probably right.
Thanks (I hope that was clearer).
Max
Max
Perhaps I am missing something, but a second J is about as safe a card as you can get. If the first J beats you, you cannot be "more beat" :-) Just checking it down might cost you a bet, but would also seem to save a bet to a check-raise if J or 10 was lurking. How did it turn out and how did the tournament turn out for you? Best of luck,Gary
Pocket nines is one of the most difficult hands to play in limit poker. With a caller after the initial raiser it is impossible for you to isolate and you are probably going to be an underdog on the flop. Hence, I would probably ditch before the flop. If I were to play the hand I would reluctantly three bet it before the flop and hope for the best. You are in decent shape before the hand. I hate to risk so many of my chips on a percentage basis with a marginal hand. The caller after the raiser paralyzes you. With the flop you are comitted. The second jack helps you.
I was analyzing my 2000 tournament stats and found that I do much better in NL HE tournaments. While I play less than 20% NL HE tournaments all my 5 wins came in this format and 1/2 of my final table finishes where also in this format.
Why would I play so much better in this format I play the same basic game and stratigy - could luck be playing part of it?
I baiscally play semi-tight semi-aggressive style - I suppose in the NL tourneys I make bigger bets and win bigger pots when I do play. I can use position to my advantage in NL a lot more than in Limit.
Anyone out there doing much better in one format than another want to talk about it.
Is there more luck in limit of NL contests? And why?
Thanks,
"Is there more luck in limit of NL contests? And why?"
When the money is very deep, there is more luck in limit. Just like in ring games, weaker players don't stand a chance in deep money NL play.
In a small tournament where the blinds start fairly high and increase rapidly, limit may have a *lower* luck factor than NL. When many hands are all-in preflop, there's less opportunity for better players to use skill, and a lot of preflop all-in confrontations are close to equal (e.g. pair vs. two overcards). Once the flop is down, one hand is typically a large favorite. An expert player with a good read on situations will have more of a chance to run the right bluffs or to choose highly advantageous spots to commit his last few chips in limit. Rocks and maniacs will do much worse with limit betting than with NL, while calling stations won't do as badly in limit.
"Why would I play so much better in this format"
I bet it has a lot more to do with your natural behavioral tendencies. Mike, I put you as an aggressive (Type A) person and I believe aggressive play is best suited for big bet poker.
Vince.
It's luck for a lot of reasons here's one of them. In limit they can always call your raise. In no-limit if they call they can lose all their chips.
I played in a slightly unusual freeroll HE tournament and I have a question on how the structure affects rebuys.
20 players, limit HE, everyone gets T200 free to start. Rebuys are T500 for $15 until break, when there's an optional double rebuy, T2000 for $30. Soon after break the tournament becomes NL. The rebuy money is distributed to the top 3, 50-30-20, minus a percentage for the house and the dealers.
I never rebought, and so I ended up coming to the final table shortstacked, which got me thinking. It's obviously incorrect to rebuy before break, but it seems like the rebuy at break could be profitable if enough people rebought before.
Chips rebought at break cost $30/2000 = $.015 each.
Chips rebought before break cost $15/500 = $.03 each.
Factoring in the 200*20 free chips floating around, the average value of the chips in circulation will be above $.015 if over 4000 chips have been rebought, which is only eight rebuys. When I played there were about a hundred. So it seems to me that I was correct in not rebuying before break, but choosing not to rebuy at break was a big mistake.
I'd like to hear thoughts on my analysis, specifically, if I should be considering the "marginal utility linearity" of the tournament chips, since only the top 3 are paid. That would especially encourage me to rebuy at break if I had a small stack, right?
I think you've thought this out quite well. The basic issue is whether your EV will increase by more than you spend buying the chips. In this case, since there were sufficient "bad" rebuys, your add-on would have been a "good" rebuy.
However, you should never take the $15 rebuy in this event if EV is your only concern, because it will probably never be +EV. If you are willing to lose a buck or 2 in EV in order to stay in action and play longer, then it's worthwhile. If nothing else, losing maybe $1 in EV is worthwhile if you could use the experience of playing more cheap tourneys.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Tourney is no limit hold'em. Buy-in is $50 (5 entry,45 to prizes) gets you 500 chips. First round starts at 10-15 blinds with rounds of 20 minutes. There is one optional re-buy for $30 that gets you 500 more chips. You can take this at the start of the tourney or any time during the first 60 minutes. 66 players paying 10. My question is this-Should you take the re-buy right away to start with a big stack (most people in the tourney did not take this option) or should you wait and see? A friend of mine in the tourney took it right away arguing he never wanted to be short stacked if he caught a good hand. I waited to use the re-buy thinking that if I suffered an all-in beat I was protected one time with the re-buy option. I ended up taking the re-buy at the end of the re-buy period to add to my stack. Both my friend and I made it into the money.
Lurking on this posting board has been a great help to my game. Thanks.
Bill
I would rebuy right away here, but I'm not sure the math on it. I'll let someone else do that.
The math is easy. Your chips are worth twice as much the first round as they are the second round and quadruple what they are worth in the third round. If you're going to rebuy (not always the wisest option), I generally believe that you are better off rebuying as soon as possible, to give yourself every possibility for multiplying your money.
But this strategy is for tourneys that offer multiple rebuys during the first hour. While I believe he was still correct to take the rebuy as soon as possible in his "one-rebuy-only" tourney, there's still much to be said for being able to take one all-in beat and still come back to fight again.
However, if there's a similar tourney the next day, rebuy as soon as possible -- or not at all.
I would rebuy some time in the rebuy period - but I don't get the thinking about the chips being worth more in the 1st round - please expain.
I think your making rocket science out of a simple decision.
I should've noted that this "value" estimation is always applicable, but is much more noticeable in limit tourneys where you can't move it all-in and double up in one hand.
Not rocket science, but more like inflation. After the first round, the limits and blinds typically double (those who play a lot of stud tourneys are even more aware of this effect). If the limits have doubled and you have the same amount of chips you started with, you have half the "purchasing power" of your initial stack. If your stack hasn't advanced after the first 3 rounds, you learn what it must feel like to live in a South American country.
Hello, Im sure you all get this question a million times, but I have to make it a million and one :) What is THE book for tournament play? Ive been partial to ring games and I would like to start getting into the tournaments now as well. I've been reading Phil Hellmuth's "Hand of the week" and the no-limit tourneys tweak my interest especially. Could you all recommend a great book for tourney play?
Thanks!, Smaegol
I am also interested in this topic. The only two tournament books I've read are POKER TOURNAMENT STRATEGIES -- Sylvester Suzuki and THE SECERET TO WINNING BIG IN TOURNAMENT POKER -- Ken Buntjer. Of the two I got more out of Buntjer's book. I didn't feel either one helps much with NL Tournaments and those are the kind I am interested in playing in.
//Jay
Best I have read is by TJ Cloutier with Tom McEvoy "Championship PL & HL" it is easy to read and understand. No fancy math or conveluted theorys. Just good poker and strategy - it will help you in your ring games too. A really good investment.
Personally, I think this book is inferior to the Ciaffone/Reuben book on NL poker. A lot of the text is devoted to rubish about reading players. Sure that's an extremely important skill but we're not reading the book in order to be told how we aren't any good because we can't put a read on every player at the table like TJ can in 15 minutes.
I think it is the BEST advice on NL poker - when I am going a little badly I pick it up and reread certain chapters it usually picks up my game. I haven't read the other book as I have my NO tournament game down pretty pat and don't want to mess it up.
I particurally like the fact that TJ doesn't go into long trawn out math or theroy discussions. Maybe I'm just a simple guy looking for a simple strategy.
How about Limit Hold'em Tourney play? I'm looking for a book that talks about the difference in limit play between ring games and tourneys.
Tj's book will help you here with the concepts of winning tournaments and the strategy he employs in NL & PL are helpful in Limit.
Newbie (and anyone else interested)
Ken Buntjer's book "The Secret to Winning Big in Tournament Poker" is currently up on Ebay. This book focuses on winning Limit HE tournaments and like Jay says above, is well respected. The retail sticker price is $50 so you may get a good deal on it.
Just search for Buntjer.
Michael
PS- The Big Deal (OOP) by A. Holden and our resident H/L expert Ray Zee's H/L FAP book is also out there.
Be the flop... See the flop... You're not being the flop, Danny.
If you bid on it why did you tell us where to find it for a bargin,
Rounder:
I'm just a giving person.... :)
Actually I'm the seller on these three books. Please, no flames for the advertisement! Just thought it was appropriate info.
Packerfn1
Be the flop... See the flop... You're not being the flop, Danny.
So why are you bidding on them - I am Hoosierinaz on ebay. Cought ya.
Rounder:
What did you catch me at? I'm confused (not the first time.) at what you're saying.
My Packerfn1 name is on the items because I'm the seller. I'm have not bid on any of them(kinda stupid with the Ebay charges to the seller).
But speaking of catching me.....what do you think of this hand.
5-10 HE in Aurora at the end of a 10 hour session where I was up $350 and now am about even thanks to the obligitory LL bad beats.
Kd7d in the BB. 4 callers and a late position (older, conservative) raiser. sb folds, I don't fear a limp re-raise so I call the extra bet and we see the flop 6 handed.
Flop: Td3dTc
Checked around to the raiser who bets, I call with the flush draw and amazingly everyone else folds. Now 7bb in the pot.
Turn: A Total brick (so useless I can't even remember).
I bet.
Rational: I have the raiser on AA,AK or KK. He's had a good day and is probably up $3-400 and his wife is standing behind him and they'll be leaving in less than a round. I feel his image of me is a solid, winning player and my bet will scream "I have a ten and I was waiting to nail everyone on the turn but they all folded and now I'm afriad you won't bet". He also knows I'm not one to bluff (much). (BIRCILLH per Lee Jones)
He thinks.... and thinks.. (rare at this table) and calls.
River: Another brick.
I bet completing my now (un)semi-bluff. He complains a little but calls me down with his KK.
Comments?
Packerfn1
Mistake no. 1 calling a raise with K7.
Mistake 2 drawing without the nuts.
Need I say more.
Rounder:
Rebuttal #1: 10-1 pot odds on the call in the BB in a loose passive game and you wouldn't call with a suited King?
Rebuttal #2: I felt I was drawing to the effective nuts. There is no way this guy raises preflop with AQs or worse. Plus - If he has AK I think he folds to my semi-bluff bet on the turn.
Now...
Mistake #1 as I see it was asking for your opinion as an apparently accomplished player since what I got is a rare smart-ass "Boy are you stupid and look how smart I am" response right after you accuse me of doing something (still not sure what) with the books I have on Ebay. This I wasn't expecting since your posts are usually useful and it's generally not your style to be a jerj.
As far as only me earning .57BB/hr over my first year (only 155 hours) in Aurora compared to your quite amazing 14BB/hr I can only bow in humility - but I'll keep the cash.
BTW- If I could find a job that paid me $280/hr I think I'd move there.... even Aurora. Your poker prowess must have already made you rich.
Packerfn1
you mis took my rye sense of humor for sarcasim.
I based my Aurora on 5-10 as I am always signed up for the 10-20 and sit at the 5-10 waiting for a seat and I just can't leave the game.
No I don't play K2 - period - if you have been following my past posts (I have been consistant in this) I don't play suited cards unless I'd play the ranks anyway and I don't play K2. If I'm gonna do some drawing I will do it with a Axs.
Rounder:
Your posts add a lot to this forum and as a relatively new player I respect your input (and your rye sense of humor). Like I said, it just wasn't the response I expected.
I do hope we can get together when we're both in Aurora. I won't be down there on 4/3. I get my one Sunday a month and in April I'm making my first trip to Vegas (4/26 to 5/2) so that might be all my poker time for April. Hope your 14BB/hr holds up on your upcoming trip.
Packerfn1
PS- I'd move to Aurora for $140/hr too. I'm surprised with the loose/passive composition of the Aurora games that you wouldn't call a single bet with a suited king after 5+ limpers. Especially if you're wise enough to be able to get away from the hand if only a K flops. Maybe we should start a thread on the HE board.
K2s - 1stly pre flop odds are something like 25:1 to have the winning flush hand here. Just what flop do you want to see 3 of your suit with the A is good, K22 is another one, bare K flop is a loser and 2 spades is a chasing hand, 3 of your suit is a disaster if the 4th comes making the A good.
I guess I can see a lot more bad flops than good ones. I choose to save the sb and any subsequent bets for a real hand.
It is a long shot and I don't like playing longshots unless they are the nut.
I'll be in DesPlaines on 4/3 for a few days - I usually stop by Aurora to pay for the trip :-) Maybe we can say hi.
Hell you played in the easiest game in North America and lost - must have had some really bad beats.
I am averaging 14 BB an hour there.
I suggest that you get Super/System by Doyle Brunson. This book will teach you how No-Limit Hold-em is played--it's the basics. Then for tournament play I suggest T.J. Cloutier's No-Limit Pot-Limit Hold'em.
How about Ciaffone's book?
Sylverster Suzuki's book is good for general theory. I've recently read TJ's new book on championship limit hold'em. It has an excellent discussion on how to play various tournament hands and I agreed with about 90% of his advice. However, I don't many people are disciplined enough to follow his guidelines. To become a good tournament player, there is no getting around experience. The only way to learn is to make some mistakes, and reflect on them afterwards. I suggest you try to find tournaments with as few entrys as possible. The critical adjustment between tournament and ring play is the mastery of short handed play. Its something you really can't teach. In the events with 2 or 3 tables, it seems like you're playing short handed for over half the tournanment.
I am fairly new to poker and played in my first no limit tourney today. It was a fifty dollar buy in with a ten dollar entry fee. Each player started with 1000 dollars and blinds were 10 & 20 with doubling every 15 minutes. I had been playing very tight. I had won 2 small hands, neither by showdown, had checked raised myself all in once when any queen made a straight and everyone folded, and had once gone all in when the SB posted all in and I was late, and showed down my pocket kings (which lost). So far nobody had any reason to believe I played agressively or was stealing. It came to the point where blinds were 50 & 100 and I found myself two off the button with AK suited. I had seven hundred in chips and everyone folded in front. The chip leader was right behind me, and the button and both blinds were average stacked. The three table tournament was very close to combining to two at this point (top 6 made money). Id appreciate it if anyone would tell me what they think I should have done at this time.
Here is what I did. I made it $250 to go. The chip leader (who had won a lot of hands, so many I thought he must have been a bully, but later decided he was just getting amazing hands) then made it $550. I pushed everything in. He called with pocket tens and won. Im pretty sure everything I did was incorrect. Should I have limped, and folded to the raise? Should I have gone all in right away? Should I have mucked to begin with, or just called the small raise and see the flop? Any thoughts by anyone with tournament experience would be greatly appreciated, as I would like to become a competent tournament player. Thank You
Even if you had raised all-in, the chip leader would have almost beat you in the pot with TT. You're looking for a hand and you find AK! You want your money in heads up or 3 handed. Attacking the short stacks only works when you have chips. You have to find something to play and play it. You got all your money in heads up - I wouldn't criticize your play here.
AK is a hand you want people not to call but if they do you have some ammo to fight with. Your action should have been to push all in here. Eigther way you were gonna lose but in future with a hand like this you eigther push in or call hoping for a good flop then you can trap someone with an inferior ace.
They say you have to beat AK and win with it to win a tournament and I agree with this saying.
No matter how you played the hand you were destined to lose. Your raise preflop with the blinds was too small. You should have gone all in before the flop because a larger bet would have left you with virtually no chips. By going all in the big blind perhaps may have mucked his pocket tens even though I doubt that, but it certainly maximizes your chances and you now have put your opponent in a situation where he might make an error.
Bruce
Good Evening All,
This weekend is a big one for me, a relative novice tournament player. I am playing in two tournaments. Friday night is a NL HE, $25 buy-in with one $25 rebuy any time. The first two positions pay 70%/30%. Usually there is around 20 players.
I have played in it three times. I split the pot the first time having only a few more chips than the other guy. The second time, I came in 3rd. That is painful. The third time I got knowcked out in the middle of the pack.
I attribute my early success to luck and to being new in a casino where everyone else knows each other and a new face might have an advantage, for a while. And perhaps a better than poor ring-game ability. I haven't read much on tournaments.
Saturday is a Limit HE, $100, no rebuys. The winner is guaranteed $2500 plus $300 for travel expenses. They are calling it a WSP satellite and the winner also qualifies for the TOC.
I picked up "Tournament Strategies", by Sylvester Suzuki (does anyone know who this is?). He has made some suggestions although I am still in the process of reading. Does anyone have advice for general strategy for either tournament, comments on the book, or all of the above?
Phil
Stay away from drawing hands and play ultra tight in the early going. Don't play hands that won't stand a raise and be in raise or fold mode. Aggressive with the right hands. As the field thins out you can loosen up a bit - something like playing KQ in late position. Don't be playing hands like KJ to a raise - you can be playing pairs just about anywhere but if you don't hit the set muck unless they are over pairs.
I wish yo success.
In tournament play, late position with no raisers, do I call or raise with 910s?
Phil
NL or Limit?
What stage of the tournament?
What is your stack size?
Any limpers before you?
Are the players behind you tight or loose?
Do the blinds defend or quick to throw away?
9,Ts is a piece of cheese in NL un less you get in very cheep? In limit it is a steal hand or one that wants a lot of callers even in tournament play.
Just what the hell kind of a name is Phil D. Rax anyway?
Vince.
NL or Limit?
Both
Stack Size?
Any, but let's say three big blinds.
Limpers?
Of course.
Tight or loose behind?
I prefer tight.
Defenders or scaredy cats?
Defenders, for the hell of it.
Name?
Optimistic!
"Tight or loose behind?
I prefer tight."
Yeah, I like a tight "behind" too. Something about great minds thinking alike I guess.
Vince.
Just as long as they're not too wide.
I play regularly at a few local cardrooms and I have played in about 40 NL tournaments over the past 2 years.
In the beginning of April my school (a small professional school) will be having a poker tournament open only to the students and staff. Unlike most tournaments, the vast majority of these players will have absolutely "no clue" (as opposed to most players who have "some clue"). It also will be a limit event.
The structure is as follows:
Buy-in gets you 200 in chips. Hold-em only, double-blind structure with the blinds starting at 1-2. The blinds will double every 30 minutes for 2 cycles and then every 15 minutes after that.
The limit will be double the blinds (2-4, 4-8, 10-20, etc.)
I play more limit poker than everyone who will enter and plan to use my typical limit ring game approach to the tourney. However, unlike the typical ring game, I suspect that there will be more passive calling stations (some of whom will play pretty tight) than normal. Also, unlike the NL tournaments, you don't have to worry about a stack-sized raise when you limp in.
A few thoughts:
First, I plan to play my regular game while the blinds are small, but as the blinds increase (and it becomes more like NL) I will switch my style. I hope to accumulate a great deal of chips early on so that I can be a big stack later in the tournaments.
Do people have thoughts on either of the following:
(1) The limit structure and how that should affect starting requirements and pre-flop play.
(2) The fact that most of these players will not be hold-em players and therefore will probably be passive and also have trouble doing things like reading the board (seeing a flush when they have a straight, etc.).
Good luck and you'll need it in this sort of tournament. I'd lay low early and try to pick off pots with great hands I flop to. You are bound to lose with big pairs to 2 pair like 2s-3s. Like I said good luck.
Probelm is they don't know, what they don't know.
You will need less luck to win this tournament than one of comparable size with experienced players. Whether you lie low or come out firing early on, pay particular attention to how your opponents are playing. Some will be too scared to play a hand, some will call with anything (Ace high _is_ anything, even on the river), some will be raising indiscriminately. Watch carefully and play accordingly. Play your big hands strongly, don't slow-play, be _very_ careful about bluffing but if you pick your spot correctly some opponents will lay down a hand when they shouldn't. Others will never lay down anything, this is where observation comes in.
If you find there are regularly 5 or more people seeing the flop then don't fall in love with top pair and watch out when a draw is potentially completed. You will get drawn out a lot, but you don't have to pay it off every time.
Let us know how it goes as it does sound interesting.
Andy.
Classic No Limit Hand- Part I
No Limit; blinds are T300 T500; 8 handed. I'm in big blind. I have T6800, kid has T8000, button has T20,000. Fairly aggressive kid two to the right of button raises to T1000 - Button (loose player) calls - I find Qh 9h.
I can't call here. The suited portion of your hand does nothing for me. If you think your hand is good here push in otherwise just give it up.
I give it up.
Max - You haven't mentioned how many other players are left, nor how big their stacks are. That information would matter to me in terms of how I would play the hand.
How you play it here depends partly on your image. Does the aggressive kid think he can get away with stealing your blind? If so, then he is more likely to be on a steal than if he expects you to defend your blind.
Given your description of your opponents (aggressive kid and loose player on the button), I assume you can't put them on a hand at this point. The aggressive kid could have any kind of reasonable hand, high pair, low pair, high connectors, low connectors, suited aces or kings - lots of stuff. The kid could be on a steal or have a hand.
Why is the player on the button getting involved here? Why is he just calling and not raising? What does he think the aggressive kid has? Does he think the aggressive kid is on a steal? Is he shrewd enough to expect you to fold to the kids raise and his call? Is he hoping you will call thus giving him more favorable odds for a draw? Why would he allow you (by not reraising himself) a chance to draw out on him if he had aces or kings? Why would he give you better odds for a draw by just calling? Because of these considerations, I would tentatively put the player on the button on ace-king, maybe ace-queen or king-queen, maybe jack-ten. If he has ace-queen or king-queen, then you are dominated.
Your own hand is a drawing hand. If you dont hit at least (1) a queen with no overcards, (2) a nine with no overcards, (3) a couple of hearts without an ace or king in a different suit, or (4) a jack plus a ten without an ace or king on the flop, you are going to be hard pressed to call the next bet. You like something like 5100 flops out of 19600, 26% of the possible flops. It's about 2.8 to 1 that you wont like the flop. There is T2800 in the pot. It will cost you T1000 to call. You're getting 2.8 to 1 to call. (Amazing they're the same, but that's how it worked out). If you assume neither opponent has aces or kings already, it's worth your call. I included in the flops you like) flops with two hearts (but no ace or king) and also flops with jack-ten (but no ace or king). You're still on a draw even though you like those flops.
Thus if you raise, you're not getting proper odds on what amounts to a drawing hand. You want to raise to, hopefully, get at least one of your opponents to fold. But if you raise, then youre not getting the proper odds to call.
Your choices are fold, reraise, or call.
You may want to fold, to risk your chips later playing a hand on your own terms, to use offensive tactics rather than defensive tactics. However, if you don't defend yourself, if your opponents see that you give up your blinds, then your opponents are going to tend to hit on your blinds at least the rest of the session. And once your opponents put you down as a weakling who doesn't defend himself, you'll get picked on in the future also. You have a hand strong enough to defend your blind and therefore I think you should not fold here.
Reraising doesnt give you the proper odds for your bet, may not force an opponent to fold, and may cause an opponent to reraise. Therefore I think you should not reraise here.
All in all, I think you call, repugnant as a call may be. Youre stuck here.
Having written the above, I have to admit this is where I tend to get in trouble (defending my own big blind).
I read Rounder's post after having written this post. Very tempting to fold. However, it might be worth risking a few chips here to enhance your table image for future games. Close call though, at least in my mind.
Buzz
Problem here is it is late in the tournament and the last thing you want to get involved in is a drawing hand. The Q9 is very weak against 2 callers and I just fold it. Good chance the Q is dominated by a AQ or KQ - don't look good to me.
"Good chance the Q is dominated by a AQ or KQ - don't look good to me."
Rounder - I agree completely.
As already noted above, I have difficulty in this very situation. Every tournament I play, somewhere into the third hour I'll be in the big blind with poorer cards than I want to play. In fact, I usually have cards I don't want to play when I'm in the big blind somewhere in the third hour of a tournament. With eight players, you're in the big blind one hand out of eight. Only one or two hands out of eight are better than this hand, one or two are about the same, and a whopping five hands out of eight are worse. If you don't defend here, what does that leave you for defending your blinds?
Or is defending my blind to enhance my table image a foolish concern of mine? When my opponents don't expect me to defend, they definitely kick sand in my face.
A difficulty in answering this question is that we do not have all the information. If it is the final table, then I agree that Max should follow your advice (or Fossilmans advice below). Max has enough chips left sit back and wait for a better hand, meanwhile allowing more adventurous opponents to knock each other out of the tournament.
In my answer above I assumed the tournament was somewhere into its third hour, there were several tables left to be eliminated before Max was "in the money" and it was a little early to go into "survival mode." If so, what then?
Buzz
You can't let anyone run over you but you have to also be smart about it. The raiser is the key his stack is key too so is your stack.
To be honest I'd rather hit back at a blind stealer with somehting like 78 as opposed to Qx - gotta know your opponents in this situation it is more important than the quality of your cards.
Where's your gamble, guys? WM already has 500 invested in the pot, so he is getting nearly 6 to 1 on the extra 500 call, which is less than 10% of his stack. This is a gift from the kid who only doubled the BB and the button who called.
I call, hope to hit the flop hard (two pair, or pair+draw) and double through. Of course, if the flop comes Qxx or 9xx, then you have to play poker well in order to know how to proceed. I like my chances here.
Mike maybe earlier but at this stage you better have the goods before you get into a fight with little ammo.
To make sure that my answer is correct (IMO, of course), I need to know how many are getting paid, how much to each spot, and the approximate sizes of everyone else's stacks.
Most of the time I would call and hope to flop big. Like Michael 7 said, if you flop top pair only, you have to be able to know your opponent to play on well.
If the 3 of you involved in this hand are the shortest stacks at the table, and 7 places get paid, I would fold and hope that kid gets busted first.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The tournament was down to 16 players. First was an expense paid trip and a paid entry into the "Big Dance", the $10,000 No-Limit WSOP. Second was $100 - extremely top heavy. Part of the problem was image. The kid had only been at our table a little while and had shown one of the only bluffs I'd seen all day. I was unknown to him but had a very strong image with the others including Button. Button wasn't a good No-limit player, more of a limit HE player. Earlier he had busted a player with 5 2 voluntary (not a blind hand).
I called the T500 raise. Flop was Tc 9s 6h.
What do I do now?
"Wenatchee" Max (Oh, by the way, extremely good, well thought out answers.)
Max - You showed courage.
Now there is 3800T in pot, you have 5800T, "Aggressive Kid" has 7000T and "Big Stack on Button" has 19000T. You like this flop. You're a little worried about someone with 8-7, but so are both of your opponents, assuming neither of them has 8-7. You bet the size of the pot, 3800T, leaving yourself with 2000T. Going all in is second choice.
You're on your way to the "big dance."
Buzz
I count T3300 in the pot, and you have T6300 or T5800 after your call (it was unclear to me whether your T6800 figure included the big blind, or was your stack after posting the blind). I'll round it out to T6000.
My standard play would be to bet T2500 here, and then bet all-in on the turn. I'm more worried about giving a free card here and losing to a J, K, or A than I am to losing to someone with a T or overpair here. However, the best play depends a lot upon the opponents. My tendency is to pick the play that I think will most likely cause the opponents to fold. If that's an all-in bet, do it. If that's a check-raise, do that. If you think that there is an significant chance you don't have the best hand right now, then check-and-fold. Hopefully, you were looking at the kid when the flop came down, and have an idea whether he like it or not.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I bet out T1000 hoping to take it right there.
(Flop T 9 6h) Pot was T3300. Two other players.
I agree with seeing this flop. The only thing I would do differently is that I would make a larger bet after the flop. I know that you have to be concerned about getting overcommitted with possibly the worst hand but you have to be more concerned about giving someone a cheap draw at a longshot. I agree with Michael 7's pre-flop analysis. There is no way I put this hand down pre-flop for a mimimum raise, knowing that it can't be re-raised behind me. This is even more true with the prize money so top heavy. How to play the hand after the flop is much more difficult than your decision before the flop.
After betting T1000, the pre-flop raiser asked how many chips I had ( slightly less than him)and then called. The button folded.
An 8 of hearts come on the turn so I needed a jack for a straight or a heart for a flush. I really didn't want a Queen.
I checked, the pre-flop kid bet T2000. After much thought I called. River came Queen giving me two pair. He went all-in and I called, only able to beat Aces, Kings, or a bluff. He showed Q J offsuit - he had turned the nut straight. I go home now.
Hi everbody, I'm pretty new to this whole thing, but I would like to make a few comments in response to Max's questions.
First, I agree with the call pre flop, mostly because you can't get reraised (as mentioned before). You have to think that the kid is on a semisteal here, playable cards, but not great. (I wonder what the bluff was, did he have a legit hand, or was it stone cold naked).
As far as the flop goes, you have to like it, but not a lot. I think that the bet on the flop was too small. Betting 1000 into a 3300 dollar pot just screams gutless. I would wager that if you bet the pot, and the KID doesn't have anything, you will win the pot outright.
I don't understand the check on the turn, however, especially after the KID just called the flop. If you felt a 9 was the best hand, why you think an 8 hurt you. Again the bet of the KID on the turn is rather gutless, or, as it turned out, was set up to make you think that so you would call all in on the river.
One final point, I don't think that any of you are giving this KID due credit. I don't know much about NL HE, but I think that QJ is a decent (barely, mind you) steal hand if there are only blinds and the button, whom you know to be loose (it is also important that the KID knew the button player). You can't deny the fact that he got lucky, but thats part of tournament poker, and he was able to convince you that he was weak enough on the turn that you would call 2000 and risk all your chips on the river with middle pair.
Here's a question, what do you do if you bet the flop, and he raises you all in on the flop (not unlikely with that kind of a draw and 2 overcards)?
Played in only my second tourney tonight, and it was my first Limit tourney, and I won!! Went into the final table (there were about 30 players in the event) around 7th in chips, caught a rush of nice cards, and found myself around 5th place or so. Only the final 3 players were getting paid, but someone offered a deal. I was happy to, since I was behind and in trouble of being knocked out without any prize money. Luckily, someone refused and next thing I knew, I was chip leader with 4 players left! A 4 way deal was struck, and I won 8 times my buy-in.
I'm not quite sure why I'm posting this, except that it was exciting, and I have all the posters on this forum to thank for giving me lots of reading material, which helped a great deal.
ranting,
shooter
Congrats shooter.
That feeling is still there for me. I get excited every time I get "all the chips".
hip hip horray!
hip hip horray!
hip hip horray!
scott
I'm playing in a NL tournament in Scottsdale this morning at 11 if I make final table I could be done by 2:45 - (I've won this one 4 times this year). I am thinking of flying out to LA for the Sport of kings limit HE art 7pm and flying back to phoeinx for the 11 am 100 Buy in NL ME tournament at Scottsdale.
Anyone know when the Hollywood park might be over.
I know nothing.
But, if this tournament is tyical of others of its kind in LA (that I used to play when I lived in San Diego), the thing won't be over until something like 2 or 3 in the morning.
Hopefully someone who's been playing at this series will post and then you'll get a real answer.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
i'm playing in a rotation tourney in a few weeks where the 30 minute rounds will be hold'em, stud, and omaha, then final table will be no limit holdem. no problem with the hold'em and stud, but i don't play omaha. should i start reading all i can and try to learn the game, or is it possible to sit on my chips during the omaha rounds and sweat it out. i think if i don't get enough strategy down, i'd be putting my stack in trouble by playing it at all. what's the best way around it. it's a cheap tourney, otherwise i wouldn't do this.
There is a thread on RGP that discusses good Omaha starting hands. I am a Omaha newbie only playing hold'em for years. I've played it 3 times and came in 3rd on my 2nd try. Your tournament strategy is more important than the actual game experience.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Blinds are 25 50 I have T800 just after the break I am in a dead seat haven't played much. I'm in bb with J2 5 call I get free flop I think my 3rd flop in 11/2hrs.
Flop comes 88J - I look around and see a it hit a few of these guys. I figure my option is to make a big raise or check/fold.
What do you do?
I would certainly check. This is not a very good situation. Most people would slow-play an 8 so you might get a free shot at another J even if someone has trips. If someone does bet, well you have to be there, you could consider playing if you think they're on a steal, but now if someone has checked an 8 you're dead. Check and probably fold.
Andy.
Andy,
You said,"If someone does bet, well you have to be there, you could consider playing if you think they're on a steal . . ."
There are FIVE people in the pot besides Rounder, I don't think someone will steal unless they are a habitual bluffer. With that many people seeing the flop in an unraised pot, someone is bound to have cards that fit that flop.
Bet a little rather than check.If anybody calls throw your hand away because theyve probably got at least jacks full.
I never tried bluffing FIVE people out of a pot. Tell me how you do it. If there was only one or two people in the pot I might give it a shot.
Who said anything about bluffing? A small bet may win the pot right now if noone has an eight.Giving a free card is giving these guys a chance to outdraw you if youre already in front which is not as unlikely as some might think.
A small bet could win the pot. I'll agree with that, but what are the odds with five players still to act? I'll go along with the small bet if there were two people only in the pot with me. Maybe, even three depending on who was in the pot. I just thought with the amount of chips he had left when this situation came up he would be better off checking and folding to any heat.
Save your money for a better hand. Check and fold to a bet. That deuce will kill you.
I played Girley man poker check fold.
There is a type of deal making that I've been seeing lately that isn't covered in any of the tournament books I have like Tom McEvoy's "Tournament Poker", or the one by shane smith. It involves 'locking up' a portion of the money, then playing for the rest.
For example, at a No-Limit Hold'em tournament I watched tonight at Hollywood Park Casino, the last three remaining players considered 'locking up' $7,000 for each person from the combined 1st, 2nd, 3rd place money(which added up to about $35,000[1st was $20,000, 2nd $10,000, 3rd $5,000) then playing for the remaining $14,000. The thing that I find confusing was the amount of $7,000 that one player seemed to pull right out of the air. They chose not to make any deal whatsoever, but I'd still like to know if there is some kind of method that is used when trying to decide how much will be 'Locked up' before playing for the balance?
Thanks for any help, jennifer
Not really a scientific method, I will usually try to find a number that will be acceptable to all. Many like to do a 3 way with the chop leader getting some more for the chip count. I do like to play it out for a few reasons.
It is more about what the traffic will bear than anything - you'll see alot of 2nd money deals in a place like this where everyone saves $10K and play for the $5K.
Chip counts and atitudes have more to do with it than anything.
Last week, there was a big NL HE tourney in vienna, same structure as the big one of the WSOP (but cheaper). Buy in: ~1500$, first price: ~72000$. You start with 10000, first limit: 25/50 blinds. 122 players, first 2 tables get paid.
first hand, 5th limit, blinds are now 200/400, ante 50. I got ~28000 which is an average stack. First position player (tight, not very agressive) raises up to 1500, everybody folds to me, i got JTo and call (hoping that no AKQ comes on the flop and planing to bet if checked to me). To my suprise the BB calls too. Flop comes T88 rainbow. Both players check, I bet 4000, both fold.
second hand: same limit: same player as in the hand before raises up to 1500 preflop, button calls, I got 98s and call. Flop comes 742 rainbow, i bet 4000, raiser folds, button thinks for a long time and calls. Turn is an Ace, I check, button bets 5000, I fold.
Third hand: Last hand in this Limit, first player in calls, all others fold, I (QQ) on the button make it 2000, blinds fold, first player moves all in with about 27000. I watched this player for a long time, he reraised me preflop in the last 2 hours 4 times, called several times in first position with drawing hands and I saw him raising once in first position with KK. I called him thinking that he wanted to make a play with me and to my suprise he showed me AKo. K came on the turn, and i was left with 4000 and eliminated in the first hand after the break.
Any comments appreciated.
M.A.
MA,
I'm no expert but I'm interested in working my way up to this kind of big tournament (eventually) so I will post my thoughts, so I can hopefully learn as people point out my mistakes :-)
1) It's only 5% of your stack so you can call with a few hands in late position. I'm not sure JTo fits the bill - you may need to flop more than a pair to be comfortable. In the event, I think a bet is correct on the flop but if you even get called, never mind check-raised, you are through with this hand.
2) I think I like 98s better than JTo for a speculative call, but this time you are in one of the blinds ? I don't like your position. You have to be there to gauge the chances of your steal on the flop winning, but it's definitely a fold on the turn.
In both of these hands, there is 1000 in the pot to start with, the raiser makes it 1500 so everyone else is faced with 1500 to call when the pot is 2500, only 1100 to call in the big blind. I think this raise is too small - the raiser really wants to take the blinds and antes with any hand up to (and possibly including) Kings. He's giving people a cheap flop.
3) It's hard to see that he has a hand you are definitely beating. AQ ? JJ ? There's no way I call and then re-raise all in with these hands. When he re-raised you 4 times previously, did he go all-in then as well ? And had he limped to start with ? If so, then perhaps he could be making a play. But with only 3000 in the pot before his re-raise, I would definitely give this up. You're a small favourite or a big dog - you yourself said you were surprised when he turned over AK, I would have been too. But even so you're only a marginal favourite.
I have never played a tournament anywhere near as big as this so I do not mean to be critical and hope the post doesn't come across this way. I welcome any criticism of my post from anyone.
Thanks,
Andy.
PS MA - do you know who won ?
Andy, to your response to hand 3: I raised once to 1500 with KTs in middle position to pick up the blinds and antes, and this one player reraised me to 7000 just to show me 62o after I folded. (This was the second time he raised me preflop). Maybe he just wanted to gamble, maybe he had a tell on me. But when he had a tell on me, he read me wrong when I had QQ. Anyway, I read him wrong too (I thought, I would be a big favorite).
I just was angry after I lost this pot, because I thought that I played this tourney pretty well, I had a good read on my opponents and though I didnīt get any really good hands (in 10 hours I got KK twice and QQ twice, but folded the Queens preflop once, which was a good decission) my stack was OK. So why gamble at all with QQ?
Winner of the tourney was Lars Johansson (Sweden), followed by Ross Boatman and Mickey Finn (both from GB).
Thanks for your response
M.A.
MA,
"My stack was OK. So why gamble at all with QQ" ? That's the point I think. I did get the impression from your post that this was how you felt. We've all made plays that we know are wrong in the cold light of the next day, it's a shame that this happened to you in such a big tournament. I've made plenty of plays that make my skin crawl thinking about them now but they were a lot cheaper.
One further point, in my experience when a player at this level shows you something like 62 after you fold, he's got a reason for doing so. A lot of players will do this to try to set you (or anyone else) up to call when they really have the goods later on.
Better luck next time - after all, you were a slight favourite on the key hand even if you regret your call now. Maybe I'll see you there in a year or two :-).
Andy
I dont think Micky Finn will be too happy at being accused of being from GB.
First hand: Almost never call a raise with JTo. If you pair, you'll often make a second-best hand. In this situation, you could have made that bet with any two cards (since if you were bet into or check-raised you could not call).
Second hand: That call is arguable also. I generally don't want to call a legitimate raise of more than 5% of my stack with a connector. Against a weak-tight opponent I would be more inclined to play here. The bluff on the flop is fine. He likely has overcards, and you are correct to fold when the ace hits.
Third hand: This situation depends a lot on the opponent, but I would usually fold QQ here. Most players will not limp-reraise with AKo. Even if he will, you're dead (20%) if he does have AA or KK, and you're only about 50% against AK (or QQ). The pot is small, so you lose very little by folding if he has AK.
Good points.
All three hands look like automatic passes to me.Im amazed 28000 was an average stack at this stage.
First hand: I like your hand and you have good position. You played it fine.
Second hand: I would have folded preflop, but since you did play it the bet was correct on the flop since you had only two opponents to go through.
Third hand: Fold to an all in raise. Your opponent has lots of chips, why would he risk it? As the blinds and antes get higher most players will put all their money in on Aces, Kings, or Ace-King.
Would welcome comments on play of the following hand:
Blinds 25-50; I have T850 (avg stack about T1,500) two in front of button. I was moved to this table one hand earlier. All players are unfamiliar.
I get KK. Everyone folds to me, and I make it T150. Button calls (he has T2,500) and small blind calls (he has T1,500).
Flop is J98 unsuited. Small blind checks. I'm not entirely happy with any of my options:
-Checking would seem out of the question, but
I sometimes play super tight for a few hands
at a brand new table.
-A small bet (T200 or so) gives too favorable
odds to someone with a 10.
-A pot-size bet basically puts me all-in with
just an overpair, which is not something I
like to do against unknown opponents.
Any thoughts are welcome. Results will follow.
I'd put it all in. You've probably got the best hand and any bet that distorts the odds makes you pot committed. in this situation I like to go all in. This way if you get called by a ten you like the call. Your a 2-1 fav to more than double you stack. Someone shouldn't be in there with Q10 so the only hands that scare you are pocket 8's 9's J's and A's. I think this is improabable so bet it. The last thing ou wantto do is give someone with a queen or a ten a free card.
You let them in too cheap to see the flop. Now, you're in trouble. T150 is only 6% of the buttons stack. He could have anything. Well, I'd gamble. The small blind probably does not have anything yet. Bet the rest of your chips and cross your fingers for good luck.
T150 is an adequate size bet (3 times the big blind) and is pretty standard. Only weak players would call a raise of this size in this stage of the torunament with a bad hand.
What would you say a good raise would be? Is he suppose to risk half his stack to win T75!?
The reason I have for betting more is so you don't get called by a weak hand that could get lucky and bust you. Bob's stack was small compared to the players that still had to act behind him. I would have bet T500. Which is 20% of the player still to act behind him. I might have put it all-in preflop.
Since Bob didn't know the other players many of which would call pre flop raises with badly dominated hands like AK AQ QQ JJ TT some limit players would call with KT or any suited AX PaintX - I think his T$150 is way too timid.
It is hard without knowing the players here and their reaction to the flop.
Mike,
I think you have to be willing, even hopeful, of getting some play with KK. I know that I am. In NL, you are going to have to play some hands where you are vulnerable. With your biggest hands, AA, KK, QQ and AK, you really have to make every effort to win considerably more than just the antes.
A common playing method with KK is to make a pot size bet pre-flop. If there are any callers, see if an ace comes on the flop, if no ace, then make a big bet and hold on to your b.....
I see nothing wrong with his pre-flop bet. Now shove in your stack and hold on....
I think you have a all in situation here. I think your $150 with the KK was on the small side - one of them could be setting a trap with a made straight that is why I make it a bigger bet preflop to clear out the smog.
I push in here and make them decide if they want to risk a sizable part of their stack on a draw. If they flopped a srtaight your dead anyway.
This hand is similar to a hand I just posted above and If I were playing NL I would have played it the was I suggested you play it.
Rounder said that Bob's raise to T150 is too timid. Mah was even more specific, saying that he thought a raise to T500 or all-in would be the play. I disagree.
In NL tourneys I like to make all my preflop raises the same, so that there is no way I can accidentally fall into a pattern that will clue in my opponents as to whether I have a real hand or am on a steal. You could do this with big raises, but then it becomes much too expensive to steal at all. So, I prefer the 3x the big blind raise preflop when first in, maybe 4-5x if there are antes. Also, if the standard raise will take half or more of my stack, then I will raise all-in instead.
Also, if you have a hand as strong as KK, you are glad to have someone play with you. Why raise to 500 or 850 (all-in), just to win the 75 in blinds? That is going to be the frequent result of such an oversized raise. Then, the one time you are played with, it will usually be someone with a better hand, who then proceeds to take all your chips (unless you get lucky and suckout).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I don't disagree with your assessmant - here I like to freeze out the little cards and keep in the hands I dominate. In other words I want the KQ AK KJ to call here and not necessarily the 56s which sounds wierd but I perfer playing against hands I dominate too many ways the 56s can beat me.
I have used a standard raise in NL but prefer to vary my bets to keep them guessing - one all in bet with AK on a steel and a small raise with AA to induce callers is the way I like to play most of the time but that is a personal thing.
That strategy can work just fine, as long as you're sure you're not giving away your hand to your more astute opponents. That's the reason I like to always raise the same, there is simply no way to read my hand based upon the bet size.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I agree.
Vince
As usual I agree with FossilMan. He seems to articulate my exact thoughts better than I am able too. The two important points are why tip your hands by varying you bet size. eventually your more observant opponents will pick up on this. Also by making a raise of 500 your committing your self to the pot to win on 75, this is ridiculous. Make a standard raise. If a week player calls with a bad hand and busts you, too bad but in the long run you have to love these calls.
You need to consider the stack size in this situation. Since Bob's stack was so much smaller, a small raise would give away his hand and he will be broke. You would be right if stack sizes of all opponents were approximately equal. If he wanted to see the flop and get away from his hand he could have just limped in.
Mah,
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think that making an oversized raise is almost always wrong in NL. The only exception I can think of at the moment is when you have a monster hand (i.e., AA or KK), and you think that the big raise will look so suspicious to the opponent that he will actually be MORE likely to call than if you just put in the standard raise.
The only other exception is when the standard raise is half or more of your stack, in which case I raise all-in. However, I would not call this an oversized raise.
Bob wants action with his KK, not to merely win the T75 in blinds. He would be better off risking a call by any hand for T150 or T200, then to shut everyone out.
I hope that Ray or David will chime in, as I'm curious who they agree with more. I don't know about your situation, but I think Rounder's view is colored by the extremely weak players that he faces regularly in Arizona. Apparently, he has a lot of opponents who will call an all-in oversized raise with hands like AT or worse. Most players will not, and you'll waste your KK by merely winning the blinds. It's the safest play, but no where near the best play, IMO.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
I understand your points. When you get a big pair, you hope that the preflop action gets going before it gets to you. The small stack should either move-in or limp. I say this because it *depends* on you're opponents. When you move it all-in you could get someone to go overboard. I've done this before. My opponent thought I was stealing. Otherwise, the other move is to limp in and hope you get a good flop to it. When the stack gets small, the small raise gives your opponents a clue to how strong your hand is, unless you are a very trick player. So, the opponents matter in this situation.
"When the stack gets small, the small raise gives your opponents a clue to how strong your hand is"
What are you talking about? You don't give away anything b/c you make a standard raise every time (3-4 time the BB). This was one of the main point we were trying to make!!!!!
Are you telling me that whenever you play a hand you always raise? Give me a break.
If I'm the first one in I almost always raise. I'll limp early in the tourney if there are several players already in but besides thaty I almost always raise.
We were talking about the size of raising when you do decide to raise. Limping and what I limp with is a totally different subject.
ATWOOD,
Let's start a new thread. How to play a small stack against a large stack. Obviously, we are not in agreement. Let's talk about the pros and cons. This is my last post until April 9th. I will be in Tunica for the WPO next week.
i see nothing wrong with making many different size bets in no limit. many times i want to overbet the pot to win it there with a weak hand even if they know im weak they may not still be able to play. in a tourny you need to overbet to win antes, as the blinds go up you need to maintain postion in chips. by betting much more than usual you may steal many blinds from weak players. many of the big no limit tournys were won by players that just kept raising every hand and getting most of the chips from those trying not to get broke. in this case with kk, a great hand by the way, you want action. a limp or small raise is in order before the flop. you dont have enough chips to worry about someone getting in cheap and beating you. after the flop which wasnt very good you must move all in to shutout any value hands. there is almost as much in the pot as you have left so bet it all. there is nothing to save to escape with and still play on. with alot of chips you may want to proceed with caution.
Tournament strategy is "stack management". If the average stack is T1500 you have a small stack in relation to your opponents. With blinds of 25-50 you have a good size stack in relationship to the blinds. The next blind increase will put you in a small stack size in relationship to the blinds. You must therfore win chips. You have K,K. Not the greatest NL hand but certainly one worth playing in your situation. As stated you need chips. Not $75. More. The question is how to get those chips. By raising you alert your opponents that you have some kind of hand or you are on a steal. $150 to is not much of steal bet even though you are in a steal position. Someone with a big stack may just call and fold to an un favorable flop no matter what you bet. If he hits his flop he figures to knock you out. I propose that in this situation, given the stack sizes involved that you either bet enough to drive the button out or you try and trap him by just calling before the flop. I believe calling before the flop is the better play. If the button raises a fair amout you can then move all in. If everyone behind you sees the flop you can then make a decision based on the flop and the action before you.
IMO you need chips and slow playing at this point is your best bet. When the flop comes as it has you then can make a small bet at a small pot and find out where you are or you can make a big bet and since the pot is small probably drive out any draws.
Vince.
After it was checked to me on the flop I bet T500 (the size of the pot). The button raised to T1,000, the small blind folded, and I put in my last T200. The raiser had AT and rivered a 7 to make the straight and break me.
I bet T500 rather than all-in (T700) because the extra T200 wouldn't cause anyone to fold and there was a small chance I could save the T200 if the action after the bet let me put someone on QT (eg button moves in and small blind calls).
A couple of you commented on the size of my pre-flop raise. My thought was to fold if an ace flopped, but basically I wanted action rather than just to pick up the T75 blinds. The blinds were going up to 50-100 on the very next hand (I didn't mention this in my original post) and I wanted to improve my chip position.
I have no idea if the button would have called a much larger raise with AT. If so, I was destined to go broke with my KK no matter what. If not, I would have picked up the blinds and had T925 at the start of the 50-100 level. Any thoughts on whether I should have been satisfied with this?
Bob,
After I posted my original response, I thought about three choices that you have. I agree somewhat with some of the posters here in this situation.
A small raise from a small stack gives away the type of hand that you have. You are sure to get called in this situation by hands that can bust you. The players with the larger stacks know that you will be going in with a good hand, so they are going to try and take you out. So, I disagree with Fossilman in this instance because your stack size is so much smaller than your opponents. If your stack size was close to the other yet to act I would agree. So, I think a small raise like Fossilman suggests is the wrong play.
I like the raise of 500 or all-in. Rounder and I agree on this because you want a hand like Ace-Ten to call you. In this situation you will find out that the Kings will beat this hand more often than not. Except this time you got unlucky. But, these are the types of hands that I want to call me. It would have been great if someone had Ace-King.
Another alternative is limping in and reraising all-in. Or if someone does not raise, you could get a nice ragy low flop and win what's in the pot.
My post above is about preflop play not what Bob did. What Bob did is what Fossilman recommends and he got broke doing it.
Limp.
I think so to.
There's a saying with Aces and Kings. You either win a small pot or you lose a big pot. I would rather win $75 than lose to a bunch of large stacks that would call a small raise. Usually, what happens is you win the $75 or you get one call for your all-in raise.
I still remember that hand you played with T.J. Cloutier.
I think you have to move all in here. There is more than T500 already in the pot and you only have T700 left to try to win it right now. You are a big favorite to have the best hand at this point, but there might be someone with J10, QJ or AJ that would call and have good outs against you. I liked your preflop bet size.
Its funny how all the players whose opinons I respect on this forum seem to like the size of the pre-flop raise.
You mean you don't respect Ray Zee's opinion?
Has anyone bothered to look at TJ's or Ciaffone's books to see what they have to say?
I think Bob F's play preflop was correct, but all in on the flop is much better than only 500. You are pot committed anyway, and you'd rather not have a caller. With a stack large enough to make a pot sized bet on the flop and then a pot sized bet on the turn I wouldn't go all in but rather make a pot sized bet.
Interestingly, I think your opponent misplayed the flop by check raising you. He would be better off making a large bet into that flop, which you probably wouldn't call. With his check-raise, he puts himself in a marginally correct position to beat you but with T2500 he doesn't want to take a T850 hit either so would rather have you fold than call. I would reserve a check raise in this situation for a better hand, not a drawing hand.
I'm wondering what you guys think about a non-ruling from the final table of my local limit tournament last night. It's down to the last 3 players. I forget the exact dollar amounts, but it was something like this.
At the start of the hand, UTG has $1700 in tournament chips, SB has $2000, BB has around $8000. UTG (and button) raises to $1500, leaving him with $200. SB reraises to $2000, putting him all in. BB calls and turns over pocket Kings, mistakenly thinking that both his opponents are all in. UTG was already starting to call when BB revealed his hand. Now he thinks for a few seconds and folds. SB is clearly pissed off, and tells UTG that he shouldn't have revealed his hand. Play continues and the kings hold up, SB is out of the tournament.
If UTG had called, as he was going to do, he would have been eliminated as well. Since he had fewer chips to start the hand, he would have finished below SB. Difference between 2nd and 3rd was $500.
So the question is, should BBs pocket kings been dead when he revealed them?
Sentence in 2nd paragraph should have been:
"SB is clearly pissed off, and tells BB that he shouldn't have revealed his hand."
not
"SB is clearly pissed off, and tells UTG that he shouldn't have revealed his hand."
Depends what casino you're at. It used to be a common rule that your hand was dead if shown before action was complete. Now, it seems that the most common rule is that your hand is still live, but you will be forced to sit out for a penalty period of 10-20 minutes and be blinded off.
In the former case, the SB gets lucky, and in the latter case, the UTG gets VERY lucky. Unfortunately, I cannot think of any way to handle this where ONLY the BB is penalized. As a practical matter, for your particular situation, the best thing would be to make the BB pay the SB the difference between 2nd and 3rd (i.e., both SB and UTG get 2nd place money, at the expense of BB). But I don't see any good way to enforce such a penalty system, or to even write up a rule that would encompass such a penalty.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I forgot that a lot (most?) tourneys have this intent portion of the rule, whereby someone who makes an honest mistake isn't penalized. There are at least a few places where exposing your hand, even accidentally, will result in a penalty.
I guess the real answer is 2-fold. First, make sure you know the rules. Second, don't do anything by accident.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
sometimes an honest mistake just has to be let alone. i guess the guy that took the worst of it could have waited and hit him with his niblick , right mashie.
or his "Scared Head Brassie"
Sorry, I disagree. Honest mistake or not, exposing his hand changed to course of play and it should have been declared dead. It's harsh, and it will certainly make him aware and paying attention in the future. What do you think the ruling would be at the WSOP in the same situation?
Fossilman,
The spring tourney at Foxwoods. Each tourney winner gets a $2000 added prize. How good a deal does that make the tourney?
vince.
Too good to pass up. See you there.
It is my understanding that the $2K will be paid by the casino, and not come from the prize pool. So, you're still paying the vig to enter, but some or all of that will be returned to the winner (depending upon the number of entries). Add to this the fact that the tournament fields at Foxwoods' major events are notoriously soft, and this is a good +EV situation for any decent tourney player. I plan on playing in 5-6 of the main events, and if I don't get in the money at least twice, I'll be disappointed. And Vince, if you outflop me in another satellite, I WILL have my revenge.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
See you openning day! Hope you finish second (to me)! Make your own luck! good fortune! when are you having that 2+2 satelite at home?
Vince.
I got 4 positive replies to that post, and decided that we wouldn't have enough players to make it a go. If I get more replies and think it would go, I will broach the subject with my wife.
I may not be there on opening day (Friday, 4/7), and if I am, it will be that evening. Since I'm a working man, I have to pick and choose which days I take off for a noon start time. I will probably stick to the weekend events, and HE events.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
2000 bucks and Vince's buy-in. thats a pretty good overlay. maybe ill send some dough up to that paul feeney character and tell him to stake the fossil guy. ill also send mah and ratso along to watch feeney.
Ray,
I've never yet been staked in any game, but for a 30% freeroll, you can stake me in any tournament you like.
If it's the big dance, I'll settle for 20%.
If it's a long term, multi-event deal, 50% of the net.
BTW, the NEPC here at Foxwoods starts in just 8 days, so be sure to send that cashiers check priority mail.
Since I know Ray is never one to pass up a bargain, I think that all of you can expect to see me in every event at this year's WSOP. Be sure to say hello.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Limit tournament - after the break I have T$1150 and get JJ one off the button I limper to me I raise the $50 blind. bb calls - Flop comes 489 - BB bets.
BB is weak passive type fairly new to the table.
I know he hit the flop from a tell but put him on something like 9X or 2 pair he isn't the type to bet a draw - I called 7 hits the turn. Now I have over pair inside straight draw and IF he has 2 pair 6 more outs for my own better 2 pair. I may be on the winner already but if not I have 12 outs no flush is there.
What is the flop play - raise to see where I am?
Turn?
My thinking is I should have raised the flop if reraised muck if called and don't improve on the turn muck when he bets into me.
What good is it picking up tells if I play it wrong KNOWING he hit the flop?
Sure, you know he hit the flop, but you say yourself you can't tell if he hit it for top pair only, or for 2 pair or better.
I think just calling on the flop is fine, since he isn't betting a draw (since you say he's passive). I would tend to raise on turn, and fold to a reraise. Otherwise, call the river, and check if he checks.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think you have to raise on the flop. I doubt if the tell is strong enough to muck an overpair on the flop. As usually, raising is the best alternative, folding second, calling is the worst choice.
"Wenatchee" Max
It's easier to just put someone on a hand you can beat. That way, if you're right, you get the satisfaction of knowing you read him right, as well as winning the pot.
Turn was a 7 river was a Q - this guy bet the turn and checked the river - he had the 89 for 2 pair. I was right he hit the flop and since he came out betting I should have known he didn't just have a top pair as I raised preflop and I had been showing down good hands recently.
Oh well I should have been good eneough to let it go and save the 2 1/2 bb's.
Here's a hand I played last week, I think I got it wrong but I welcome opinions as always.
PL Hold-Em, I move tables with about 1500 chips, blinds 200-200 on the button and find that one player (two to my left) is raising about 2/3 of hands and calling a lot as well. He has plenty of chips. I take a few off him with 66 and AT and I'm up to about 5K (a little above average stack) on a roll. Now we're 6-handed and there are 3 tables left. Folded to me in middle position, I have TT and raise 600 (pot-size raise). Maniac comes straight over the top with a pot-size re-raise of 1800. There is now 3600 in the pot, he has 600 more and I have about 4000. I've seen this guy raising and calling with all sorts but he hasn't actually made a re-raise yet.
What does a guy do ?
What I did and the result to follow ...
Andy.
Andy chip position makes the call here get his last 600 in and see all 5 cards.
Rounder,
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. He has re-raised 1800 so I have to put in 1800 to call or 2400 to see 5 cards.
Or are you saying call anyway ?
Andy.
I think I would here - he seems to be making a play at the pot judging by his chip position. Desperate people do desperate things.
I probably make a mistake here and get him all in with my KK.
Rounder,
Assuming you mean his KK, not quite correct - it was QQ. D'Oh. No miracle (in fact he found a Q on the river) and 10 mins later it was all over.
At the time I was on a bit of a rush and my thinking process didn't extend much more than "He's playing a lot of hands and I've got a good hand" and I put him all in very quickly. I certainly should have given it more thought. In hindsight, trying to ignore what he actually turned up, I don't think he is subtle enough to make a play with Ax or anything else I was beating. He liked his hand. As a small favourite or big dog I could have waited for a better spot. Another factor in favour of this was I've not been in such a good chip position at this stage before and I could have picked up more valuable experience.
So what we have settled on is that you favour a call because of chip position (which some might rephrase as pot odds) whereas I might wait for a better spot. Which is something of a role reversal anyway :-)
Andy.
Sorry andy I thought you had KK I must be losing it.
TT changes thngs a lot here.
Many overly aggressive players will back down when played back at, and will not make a near all-in reraise without a strong hand. From the raise amounts you gave, you would have to put in 2400 into a pot that will contain 6600. If he has a higher pair, your equity is about 1300. If he has overcards, your equity is about 3300. If you read him for a total maniac, this is a call. You would fold if you're sure he has AA/KK/QQ/AK. Add AQ and JJ, and it becomes a borderline decision. If he could easily have AJ or 99 or 88, then it's a clear call. Also consider the playing strength of the remaining field - the more you outclass the opposition the more likely you would be to pass and wait for a better opportunity.
If I'm in your shoes, I definitely want to fold. The main reason I want to play on here is that I don't want everyone else at the table to see me fold and start reraising me. However, you probably need to fold because it seems much more likely that he has an overpair than an underpair, and if he has no pair he most likely has 2 overcards. So, overall, I don't put you on the likely winning hand.
After you fold here, do wait for a good hand before raising preflop again. If you try to steal with a bad A or some such anytime soon, are reraised, and have to fold again, there will be a huge target on your head. You need to have a hand that can stand the reraise before you raise again.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I play the same structure of tournaments and probably the same class of player. In this position (short handed??see below) many of these players would reraise with any pair, AK, AQ maybe even AJ. Just through experience of this kind of play, I generally call with 99 or better. If this isn't what happens in your tournaments then ignore my comments.
Was this one of the tournaments that play 7 to a table and 8 in the final? If it was the call was even more justified as there is a lot of really loose play in these.
Thanks to all for some excellent points which I had not considered. In particular, Dan's point about the strength of the opposition is very pertinent (and one I had not even considered in hindsight) - the thing with these tournaments is, along with the loosies there are some _very_ good professionals and there were two of these at my table never mind in the whole tournament.
Hopefully next time I will think about some of these things before shoving my chips in even if the result is the same :-)
Andy.
It looks like an automatic pass to me .Maniacs get good hands just as often as the less adventurous among us.The difference is they tend to get paid off more often because TT can look like a hand if in the heat of the moment if you start to envisage all the pieces of garbage you hope he might have rather than the large pair hes just told you he has got.
Last night I was in mid position with JJ at a table I had just come to after ours was broken. Blinds $50 $75 I'm in the 9 seat and can't see the 1 seat except for the very orange blond hair which looked a lot like a player I know to be loose aggressive.
Anyway he raises me and I call were heads up.
flop comes 722 - I check he bets I raise he reraises me. I give him a 50% chance of having TT or less. But this is a tournament so I sould muck here I don't. Turn is a K I check call river an ace I check call.
Crap he has a set of A's and I look at the guy and realize he isn't the maniac he was.
If I had known it was a guy I didn't know I'd have mucked on the flop. My mistake.
Lost 1/2 my chips cuz I "thought" I knew the guy. What a mutt I am.
I was just wondering if there are any good low limit 7 card stud tourneys in vegas - maybe a daily one at one of the casinos. I'm not a big player of hold'em and thought maybe I could try a 7cs tournament. I've never played in a tournament before (no cardrooms where i live). And for that matter, any good low limit 7cs games ($1-3, 2-4$) that you know of?
Thanks, J.
Is it better in No-Limit Hold-em to always raise a pre-set amount (as long as you can!) like a pot-size raise, or is it better to vary your play, sometimes limping in?
Depends on what you are trying to do and to whom.
I like to raise a standard amount - I drop it down if I want to induce a call and raise it to blow the others out. Like I said it depends.
One thing in NL I usually only play hands that will stand a raise so I am usually raising if I am playing.
for opinions from me, rounder, mah, and others.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
i wholly agree with greg in this. when raising first in i raise triple or quadruple the bb. usually some easy to count number in that range. if that will pot commit me, i go all in.
scott
Final Table Question:
Nooner NLHE tourney at the Bike. (Where Ive come in 1st twice and placed in the money 10 times in the past 6 months and make it to the last 3 tables 80% of the time , and I play once a week).
77 players/ around 300 rebuys, $1100 for 1st , $800 for 2nd, $500 for 3rd, down to $65 for 9th
Im at the final table with 2nd largest stack (T-17,000). The top 4 stacks are within 10% of each other. There are 4 medium-short stacks. And one woefully short stack.
Three people, including me, refuse the 9-way deal where largest stacks would get $350 each.
Draw for button. Im 2nd under the gun. Antes T-500, SB T-1,000 and Big Blind T-2,000. So T-7,500 in the pot.
UTG (huge bluffer and thief) goes all in for his T-15,000.
Before I look at my cards, I make him for a steal. My thinking is that he knows hell invest T-4000 for the button to pass (antes plus BB and SB) and he thinks he might be unknown to most of the final table and so hell get respect for his all-in right away. Hed steal with junk and certainly with any Ace or any pair.
I want to call with just about anything because he plays so recklessly loose. I look down to see that I have AKs. Theres no way he has aces or kings and otherwise, at worst, I figure Im only a 49% underdog and getting great pot odds to decimate the table as the massive chip leader. And I might be a monster favorite if he has Ax, just big cards or junk.
I always go for a 1st place finish. So I call all-in almost hoping for overcallers. No other callers.
Flip to show my AKs and his pocket 4s. Needless to say they hold up for him. Im crippled but my conservative short stack play outlasts 2 for a 7th place finish of $110.
So, whaddya think? Im not too unhappy with my play. Any wise folks disagree?
Thanks,
Peanuts
I hate making big calls with AK but in your situation with a thief there I make the same pley every time.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I feel you needlessly put your opportunity to win the tournament in peril. AK is only a significant favorite over a hand that it dominates. This is not meant as a critism of your play or your read. You chose to gamble. The player with pocket 4's is an atrocious player. I sincerly believe you should have waited for another opportunity. You let a bad player cripple your stack. Sometimes you have to play tournament poker and not let hand evaluations skew your judgement. Better luck!
You have a huge hand considering the info you had on the raiser.With the antes and blinds the way they were youd be making it kinda tricky to win if youre going to muck this monster.Even with your opponent unfortunately having a pair youre in reasonable enough shape to win the pot and probably the tournament.Better luck next time.
I believe you made a mistake by calling. You have a large enough stack to "decimate" the table right now. There is no need to "Gamble" at this point. There is no way to take control of the situation by calling. If you want to go all in with A,Ks then be the initiator. Let the other guy make the decision. Remember in the words of Bob Ciaffone when you raise you can win three ways. One, your opponent may fold. Two, you may have the best hand and it will hold up. Three, you may make the best hand. When you call a big raise without a pair, you most likely are starting behind and can only win if you suck out.
Vince.
peanuts.u know that was the right play,it's just like a lot of other right plays,they don't always win,but there still right. How much better does it get?
Thanks & May your bluffs go uncalled.
I think the entry fee of $10,000 lets too many novices play the final event of the WSOP. I am not saying that we should get rid of it, but add a $25,000 event for the pros to play. Any comments?
I know some people who don't like the pro tennis circut, saying it's the same damned 64 players week after week after week. I've also had a discussion recently about pro vs. college basketball. Pro fans like the stablility of seeing the same players year in and year out, while college fans like the constantly revolving classes. It sounds like you're interested in a "Hall of Fame" event, like the tennis circut, so that we'd see the same group playing every year. Matt Damon's character in Rounders is wrong. . .the same 5 guys DON'T make it to the final table every year. Just ask Kevin McBride, Alan Goering, and Padrig (who I'm happy to see posts on this site). I see this as a good thing, and it's nice that poker is one of the few activities in which amateurs can sometimes play alongside (and sometimes even beat) the pros, even if its usually in the short term.
I think it would be wonderful if every serious poker player could just once experience the buzz of being involved in this great event.As it stands everyone can still dream of one day getting a break and winning the world championship.Any move to make it a more elitist event would in my view rob some of the smaller and more financially challenged players of the knowledge that the next hand could possibly be the first chapter of their fairytale.It would also rob the event of all of its magic and charm .Anyway who wants to watch a bunch of egomaniacs whinging over and over again?
Taking out the novices would be like taking the small colleges out of March Madness. It just wouldn't be as special!
Russ 'Razor'
That would just encourage the rich yuppies to buy in. And leave out real players - the event at 10 grand seems well balanced now with 75 to 100 real players and 300 Drs, lawyers and indian chiefs trying to have their 15 min. of fame.
Hmmm, are we afraid of the novices? Isnt their money free money? Someones got to fill those seats. How about $500K entry fee, and 8 seats, how thrilling.
Agree with you, wolf. We do want the starry-eyed players money!
At some point, the entry fee will have to be raised in order to limit the field. Rather than an arbitrary amount to encourage fewer but richer players, I believe that evolution should be allowed to take its course.
Lets break this down into a few things. That Pro vs. College Basketball was a good point. Many more people watch the NCAA Tourney vs. the pro playoffs simply because, lets face it, its more exciting. You have "cinderalla" teams like Gonzaga in 99, Wisconsin this year who came out of nowhere! Who would have thought Wisconsin would be in the Final Four! The WSOP is the same type of thing to me. What fun would it be if Huck Seed,Eric Seidel,Phil Hellmuth,Doyle Brunson and a few choice others were automatically at the final table every year? Take Noel Furlong, a (Carpenter I believe??) from Ireland comes out of nowhere and wins the WSOP with some outstanding play. 99's world series was GREAT. I think its great that there is a chance that a no-namer from from bumble-feck egypt can buy-in and have a shot at his ultimate dream. The Great thing about poker is, you can watch the greats; the Hellmuth's and Brunson's and Huck's and be in total awe, and then, go get to play with them!! Can you jump on the court when you think you're game is good enough and take on Micheal Jordon, or Vince Carter, or Allen Iverson? Nope.. but in Poker you can. Thats the true beauty of the game.. You'll probably never see me in the WSOP, but cheers to all those that go and take thier shot!
-Smaegol
"What fun would it be if Huck Seed,Eric Seidel,Phil Hellmuth,Doyle Brunson and a few choice others were automatically at the final table every year?"
Going back to the basketball analogy, I (and I'm assuming millions of other viewers) really loved seeing Michael Jordan in the 90's and Bill Russell back in the 60's make the NBA finals year after year. Why? Because unlike college ball, you were truly seeing the best in the world. I think that's the allure of a 'pros-only' event that the original poster wants to see.
"Take Noel Furlong, a (Carpenter I believe??) from Ireland comes out of nowhere and wins the WSOP with some outstanding play."
First of all, Noel is a carpet maker. Second of all, just because he's an 'amateur', don't believe for a second that he was a Cinderella story last year. Noel is a long time player, and he's been to his fair share of final tables over the last decade. If you want a real Cinderella, forget Noel. Look at Kevin McBride's story. Talk about coming from out of nowhere.
"you can watch the greats; the Hellmuth's and Brunson's and Huck's and be in total awe, and then, go get to play with them!!"
Just don't play with that feeling of awe. . .you'll be beaten before the first card is dealt. Huck, Doyle. . yes, they're awe inspiring. Hellmuth, on the other hand, is not. The only thing that's awe-striking about Phil is that he hasn't made a single WSOP final table in the last decade, and on his website he titles himself 'the greatest tournament no-limit player in the world' or something like that. That's balls. We all know he's a master at talking the talk. He needs to start walking the walk again.
Good points Shooter,
I think maybe a players tournament is in order say the top 100 money winners for the year in all tournaments everywhere in the world. Easy to document and wouldn't that be fun.
Call it the super bowl of poker.
Let's see I am about $8000 in winnings this year another $200k ought to just get me in.
:-)
most of the pro's aint got 10 g's to get in it. they win sat. events in order to play. alot get staked or take partners for pieces. raise the buyin too much and all that can play will be the rich novices and a few pros that have saved money or get it elsewhere..
Ray Zee is right...up the entry fee and you will have more amateurs:pros. Any pro with an ounce of imagination and courage would give his eye-teeth to play; the reason more don't is 10G is a lot of money to put down on a long shot. I know--I used to be one, and believe me it was hard to scrape up ten grand. I went back to Wall St, where any moron can make more than all but the top poker players. I don't always feel good about my choice, but you will see me in the main event even though I've hardly played at all this year.
I have read everyones responses. What I would like to see is a $25,000.00 event, but with qualifiers to reduce the field and add more skill to the event. In order to win the event the qualifier would be smaller tournament to win the entry fee. In order to qualify you would have to be the winner of the event. I'm sure it could be a world class event. The bigger buy-in could make the media more interested in the event and maybe provide some corporate sponsors. I agree with other posters that you should not be able to buy your way into it, so it would not be an elitist event, but somewhat similar to TOC.
What I don't want to happen is an overload of entries into the WSOP final event and changing the structure so that luck is favored more than skill.
Last night I was in mid position with JJ at a table I had just come to after ours was broken. Blinds $50 $75 I'm in the 9 seat and can't see the 1 seat except for the very orange blond hair which looked a lot like a player I know to be very loose aggressive.
Anyway he re-raises me and I call were heads up.
flop comes 722 - I check he bets I raise he reraises me. I give him a 50% chance of having TT or less. But this is a tournament so I sould muck here I don't. Turn is a K I check call river an ace I check call.
Crap he has a set of A's and I look at the guy and realize he isn't the maniac I thought he was.
If I had known it was a guy I didn't know I'd have mucked on the flop. My mistake.
Lost 1/2 my chips cuz I "thought" I knew the guy. What a mutt I am.
Rounder,
It wasn't necessarily in the wrong place below because the key to that hand was that I thought my opponent was very loose. Padraig's point that even a maniac gets the same number of good hands also applies here - and that goes double for dudes with orange hair :-)
Andy.
Every Tuesday night at FW they have a NL HE tourney. $25 + $10 buyin for T200. Unlimited rebuys for first 3 levels if at T200 or less, $20 gets you T200. Addons at end of rebuy period, $20 for T200 or $40 for T400, no qualifier. Been averaging about 50 players, and about $100/player in the prize pool. 51 players last night, and a prize pool of $5135.
This tourney has been growing in popularity, and we have guys who drive in from 1-2 hours away just for the evening. Event starts at 7PM, and lasts until about 1AM. Blinds start at 5,5, and go up gradually (i.e., they don't always double). The field will typically have 1-3 really good players, 2-6 good players, half a dozen tight but not overly aggressive players, and the remainder loose and not good. Here are some interesting hands from last night.
Final table, everyone in the money. T49,000 in chips total, blinds are T300,600 with a T75 ante. Tight player with medium stack limps in UTG, good young kid raises to T1800. Weak, loose, burly older guy (arms like Popeye) calls, all fold, limper calls (I mucked AQo next to the button). Flop is Q93 rainbow. I'm hoping that I didn't make a mistake by folding. Limper checks, Kid thinks for a while and checks, Popeye checks. Turn is a K, making a flush draw possible. Check, check, check. River is an apparent blank. Check, check, Popeye bets all-in for about T1600 (meaning he called for over half his chips preflop). Limper folds, and after thinking a while, Kid calls. Popeye shows Kc8c, and wins. I put Kid on pocket jacks, but he doesn't show.
I've gone from a decent stack down to about T4K with 7 players remaining. Popeye is the big blind, tight player to my right limps, loose player limps, and I raise all-in with AhKh. Popeye calls, tight limper folds, loose limper calls. I'm sure I'm ahead, because he didn't call fast enough to indicate he had a pocket pair (he's pretty easy to read, most of the time). River comes with a K, and Popeye proudly drops his K6 on the table. Loose limper mucks. Fortunately, there was no 6 on the board, so I win. Anyone not like the all-in raise preflop here?
It's the next hand, and I start with about T13,200 in middle position, still 7-handed. The current chip leader has T16-18K, is rather loose and aggressive, but still weak, and is on my immediate left. Same tight and loose players limp in early, and I limp with AdJc. Even though chip leader is aggressive, I do not fear a raise from him with 3 limpers unless he has a very good hand, and the other players behind me would never raise without a premium hand, so I will most likely see the flop without a raise. Also, even though the one limper is tight, he would not limp with AK or a big pair, as he would never give a free hand to the big blind. His most likely holdings are small-to-medium pairs, a medium suited A, or KQs. So, there is a pretty reasonable chance I have the best A, and maybe the current best hand. Chip leader also limps, button fold, with SB calling and BB checking. 6 players see a flop for T600 each.
Flop is unbelievable. JJ8 rainbow. I'm wondering whether to check or bet, as a bet may chase out a gutshot straight draw, and I'd hate myself if I let that hit for free. 4 checks to me, and I would have bet, but I've noticed out of the corner of my eye that the chip leader is loading up to bet. Now, this tell has been 100% reliable so far, so I check. He checks. Ooh, good play. I wonder if he did that on purpose. This is the first time in about 8 instances where he's loaded up and not bet.
Turn card is a 6. Checked to me, and I bet T2K, about half the pot. Chip leader thinks for a while, and is giving me the staredown. Finally, he calls, and everyone else quickly folds. River is an A, and I start thinking. I'm not sure if he'll call again, and I'm not sure if he'll bluff if I check. I quickly realize that my hesitation is making him think that I don't like the A, so I use it to my advantage, hesitate a second more, and then say "all-in". He quickly says "call", and I turn over my full. He shakes his head, says good hand, and shows ___________? (I'll let you all guess, anyone who's right wins a free lunch).
I win T10,600 more from him, and now have a stack of just about T30K, or about 65% of all the chips. How's that for a reversal of fortune? From 8% to 65% of the chips in 2 hands.
No bad beat stories. I go on to win first place with no deal. Popeye came in 3rd, losing with Q6 to my AJ, with all the money going in preflop. He started the hand with T11K, put T1K in the BB, and reraised all-in after I raised to T5K from the button. What a terrible play, but no surprise.
Second place was the player on my left, the previous chip leader who lost to my AJ. The final hand I limped in on the button with 95o. Before I acted, he said "Bluff me out!", which I knew meant that he had an above average but not great hand. He was trying to stop me from bluffing, which worked. But, I called easily, since I also knew that he wasn't going to raise his option. Flop was Q98, second pair for me. T2200 in pot. I bet T1K, or half the pot, as I had been doing after the flop in many cases. He raised to T2K, which told me that he didn't have a Q, but had something. At this point I don't like my kicker, as I put him on a better 9, or an 8. TJ is almost certainly out of the question, as he would have either not raised my flop bet at all, or if he thought I had something, he would have made a bigger raise. Based on the preflop tell, I don't put him on any pocket pair. Turn is another Q. He checks, and I check. River is a 4. He bets all-in, about T7K, and I call after about 20 seconds of thought. He slams his K8 on the table, I show my 95, and I'm the winner.
See you all at the NEPC in April.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Ill take a wild guess at A8 offsuit, wish I knew who you were talking about. Boy I feel silly going to dinner and a movie instead of coming down last night ;-) Sounds like a nice tourny, congrats- Jim
Greg,
JT. That's why he was ready to bet and then decided against it when you didn't.
paul
ps: See you on the 8th or 9th.
Thanks for the enjoyable post. Your thinking process is very instructive. See you on the 8th. Kate
Guess the guy had 88 - I'll have steak and lobster.:-)
Great post, Greg.
Either 6's or 8's...if it were 8's i would guess he would bet a bit hopin someone with a jack would move in on him. Let's say 66.
Pocket 7s
Where's my lunch?
And I doubt anyone will. You're all thinking much too sensibly.
;-)
"And I doubt anyone will. You're all thinking much too sensibly."
That's an insult even Z has never gone that low about me. Alright KQ.
Paul
first of all you said lunch in your post. how dinner got into it i dont know. it would seem to me the paul feeney would make multiple guess since food is involved. but you are a cronic bluffer so maybe he called with 99.
And I doubt anyone will. You're all thinking much too sensibly.
;-)
One more stab, he limped, then almost bet the flop but held back...telling me a soso hand that hit HARD and he wanted to trap someone. His immediate call of your allin tells me he figured he trapped and was a winner...and then was disappointed. So I have to put him on J8, flopped a monster, slowplayed and lost.
Not that you wouldnt have called the flop and won anyway, but slopplay kills.....am I right?
I need to be right because Im one of the few that can actually collect dinner ;-)
-Jim
x
Q-8. He put you on an eight, and thought he was gonna chop when the Ace hit. And, congratulations on the win. Frank Brabec NUT-Z
"Kings and *QUEENS* and guillotines, breaking hearts tonight...."
Pocket Qs. Noodles @ Bellagio; this May, last two weeks of WSOP.
Fist time post here, got to be right. A6
regards,
jikun
It's arguable as to even who is the closest. Crazy Jim and Jikun came closest in the sense that their guess was close, but they both gave the player a kicker that paired the board (they guessed A8 and A6, respectively).
He had A7o!
I guess he thought I was bluffing with my little bet on the turn, and then once he caught the A on the river, there was no way he was gonna lay it down. Bad play by him, lucky for me. I'm really curious if he would have called a big bet if the river had been a 7, as I think he put me on a 6 (the turn card) or a total bluff.
However, anyone who says hi to me at the NEPC or the WSOP can get a free drink!
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Post your pic so we will recognize you or do we look for a guy and a fossil :-)
If the guy only has 1 fossil, he's probably a customer rather than me, as I have a whole bag full, and always keep a handful on the table (how can I sell them if I don't show them off?).
If our intrepid photo curator is reading this, he can email me privately. I can email him a photo, but it would be me and my daughter, or me and my wife, etc. If he is capable of editing the rest of them out (I might be able to figure it out, but I don't know how), I will email a pic.
Easiest thing to do is wait for the WSOP to be reported in CardPlayer this spring, and see my pic there. After all, Ray is backing me in every event (and to think, I've never even played 2-7 lowball, that Ray sure is a smart fellow).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
yea but your end is paid in brachiopods and trylobites.
In live games I play tight and aggressive. However, I have only played in 2 tournaments. They where both limit hold em. Both had about 60 to 65 entries and both times I placed around 30 th place. The blinds ate me alive. I did not get any bad beats, but little by little the blinds took my chips. I think that my play is too tight for tournaments. I love tournaments and want to become a good tournament player. How much should I loosen up. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
I think you can play pairs a little more liberally and if you flop the set you are in business if not you are out of the hand. I think tight play is good until the break then as blinds go up loosen up a bit.
In tournaments you have to be really careful what hands you play - the chips don't last to long when you are drawing out to straights and flushes.
For these reasons I like to isolate one or two players even with big pairs I want the odds big on my side not looking for the huge pot with 6 players unless I have the nuts.
Rather be heads up with AA and a 88% chance of success than 7 way pot woth a 30% chance.
Hope you are getting my drift.
You shouldn't loosen up in a general sense. You only loosen up in certain situations (and also tighten up in certain other situations).
With the exception of these situations, you should play your normal ring game strategy until you get near the money. The main divergences during this early and middle period are caused by the fact that you or 1 or more of your opponents will often be short-stacked. When someone is short, you must play differently, as this situation will cause them, or you, to change strategy significantly.
For example, if you have only a couple of bets left, and find A9 UTG, you should raise, even though you might fold this in a regular full ring game. If you fold here, you will be posting a major fraction of your stack in the big blind, and statistically, that hand will not be as strong as A9. So, it's probably better to raise now, and hope that no one has a better A (or if it's not too much better, that they fold).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The other night I had a tough night - dead seat and the few times I got playable hands in a NL tournament I had big bets in front of me. 3 of times I had large bets called in front I mucked with AQ. This was a tough table with many good players.
My question is do you muck AQ routinely in this situation. At full tables I hardley ever call big bets with AK Or less than JJ.
Is this too tight?
This is one that only you can answer, knowing how your opponents play, both specific individuals and the general "feel" of the table.
I think the situation you're describing is that there is a decent raise and a call in front of you ? On "a tough table with good players" I think the normal play would be to fold. I don't think that's too tight. It's difficult when you get few cards and there is a lot of raising - but if the same people are always doing the raising then you can adjust accordingly. Obviously it also depends on your stack size and other factors but I think your first thought should be to fold, yeah. The call makes a big difference as well, the first guy could be on a steal but a solid player needs something to call.
Raise and bet with glee, never a caller be ...
Andy.
If you folded AQ preflop to a big raise at a full table every time, you would seldom be making a mistake. Almost every time it was a mistake, it would be because of who the raiser is. Add a cold-caller to the mix, and you'll make even fewer mistakes. Again, when it is a mistake to fold, it will be because of who those players are.
If the raise only represents a small portion of your stack, and if the AQ is suited, be more inclined to play (if neither the raiser nor caller are total rocks).
Thing is, if the flop comes Axx or Qxx, you'll usually win the preflop money if you hold the best hand, but not that often will you get action. If you do get action, that's when you will often lose to the overpair or AK. Of course, you know all this Rounder, but getting blinded to the cloth bothered you, and you wanted us to confirm what you knew to be true. We all need our affirmations sometimes.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Dear Forum,
I just got back from Tunica where there is a lot of great action. I played in the Limit Hold'em , $500 buy-in event and made it to the final table, by far my best showing in 3 tournament tries. I actually finished 6th and 11th in my other 2 but those were $60 buy-in events with rebuys and only about 70-80 people and there were no T.J. Cloutiers, Scotty Nguyen's, An Tran's and John Bonetti's to name a few. I feel fortunate to have done so well but now my mouth is wet and I want more. It was such a rush to go that far and I think I let some that consume me. I don't think I made a bad play because of it, but nonetheless I was thinking about it. Anyway, if you have the oppurtunity to make it down there it is worth it. I'm at work now but I'll check in later. Hey Rounder, I looked for you, but I'm not sure I would have recognized you. Were you there last week.
Russ 'Razor'
No Russ didn't make that one I'll be at the WSOP for a few weekends for sure. My travel schedule is a bit slower now cuz of all the great tournament action in my home town but I am gearing up. Next week I play in a $60,000 free roll - we played 3 months and accumulated points for the FR I am 5th out of 376 point getters winning 4 times and placing several times.
Congrats on your finish - I don't mind playing the big "names" one bit it elivates my game and I like that.
BTW out mutual friend Johnny D is doing great out here. Wish these foreigners would stay in Houston though
:-)
Johnny D huh? Ask him about his 95o...That's a Johnny D. in H-town. I guess your in Arizona or at least I thought that's where Johnny was. Yeah, I didn't mind playing the big names either. Good luck on your freeroll. Later
Yeah Phoenix.
Actually Tempe.
Hey Russ...do you play in Davenport alot?
I was in a NL tournament recently when one player made it $300 to go and another made an all in bet that would have gotten the 1st guy allin about $600 more - he thought about it a lot and mucked. He mucked KK and the 1st guy showed KK. I thought is was poor judgement to muck the 2nd player IMO is on the loose side and tryes to make strategic big bets with weakish hands I actually try to isolate this guy when I can.
Both of these guys are capable of making these sort of bets with AK and at this stage of the tournament KK is OK to go all in with.
I definately make the call here. That is if I ever see a big pair again.
This situation seems representative of those that we all face much more often than we'd like. How does the group deal with them?
You start with T1,000, 15-30 blinds, and 1 hour levels, so the structure allows for some play. But for the first two levels, you've had mediocre cards and luck. You've picked up the blinds with your two big pocket pairs, stolen a few blinds, gotten caught stealing twice, and thrown away 88 and 99 when AK and AQ came on the flops.
Now you have T900, with 50-100 blinds and a conservative (though not rock-like) table image. You're not really desperate, but if you take the blinds twice or lose even a tiny pot, you won't have the chips left for a credible reraise. The two players on you left and the two on your right are all somewhat agressive but not maniacs.
What should be your conceptual strategy?
a) Be patient and wait for a legit hand or
situation (eg. big pair, AK, maybe AQ in
early position, etc.)
b) Pick the first suspicious looking raise and
come over the top with nothing, which will
either improve your shaky chip position or
send you home
c) Try to limp whenever possible with hands like
76 or 22 and hope to hit a flop
d) Try to steal the blinds at every opportunity,
being prepared to give it up if reraised
e) Try a lot of steals, but be willing to take a
stand all-in with something very marginal
(like K9s or 44 in middle position)
f) Something else.
My experience has been that my chips just melt away with a) or c). Approach b) works well if you can isolate against someone who will lay down a hand like AT or 99 or who raises too much in general, but you don't always have such an opponent.
What do others recommend?
Stealing blinds can kill you remember if everyone folds to you thet means the deck it ace and paint rich you can run into a buzz saw - meed something to steal with unless the blinds are med stacked and weak.
Many times a steal is best accomplished UTG or not far from there. It is a play the best players pull this one, off no one is looking for it from there.
Stealing is great but you seem to be obsessed with it. It is only a part of play at theis stage of the tournament.
a) is the best strategy and a bit of c) and a small bit of e) but not necessairly on the button depending on the stacks and strength of players between you and the blinds. If they pick you up as a stealer you might find your self getting calls you don't want.
A combination of things: mainly be patient but also look for a resteal situation and steal your share of blinds. Mainly play good no-limit poker. The main thing is the table composition - if they are too tight, then lean to more stealing - if they are gambooling, then look for a big hand to maybe triple? quadruple? up.
I will paraphrase selection a), and say that this is the answer:
Be patient and wait for a legit situation
The hand is sometimes irrelevant, and sometimes it is paramount. Generally, you still have enough time to wait for a spot where you have the likely best hand. However, if someone is raising on what you suspect to be loose values, then an all-in reraise with A5o may be correct (A5 beats KQ, JT, and the like more than half the time, right?).
The main thing is to stay fluid, and be thinking about each situation, not just each hand.
There was an earlier thread in another forum about whether you should look at your holecards as soon as they're dealt, or wait until it's your turn. One reason I like to wait, especially in NL HE, is that I want to be thinking about the situation, not my hand. Sometimes I've decided to steal or resteal before I've even looked. If I had looked early and seen 27o, I might have already mentally given up on the hand, and not been paying enough attention to realize what a great situation I was in.
Think about situations, think about players, THEN think about cards. This paradigm is much less applicable in limit games, especially limit ring games. However, in NL, especially NL tourneys, this is the correct, IMO.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I have a friend that I am interested in staking in a tourney and I am interested in a fair method of money distribution. What's normal? I will be paying the full entry fee.
Hmmmm ... "fair" and "normal" are two different things. The person playing the tourney will normally get 30-50% of any return. I'd say that 50% is normal if they win a satellite for you to get in, whereas something less than that is normal if you have to pay the full cost. Of course, you should make whatever deal feels most comfortable for the two of you.
Be advised that backing players can be quite an expensive proposition, akin to playing the lottery -- and that's even if you are backing known winning players. It's been two years, but I'm still smarting from some ill-advised late-night moves made by one of my well-known "horses" in a WSOP event that he was leading by a huge margin -- blowing off the $260,000 first place by not slowing down. I must confess feeling that the outcome was partly my fault for offering a bonus for an outright win -- not the carrot to dangle in front of an already aggressive player.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
The buy-in is $215 with no rebuys. I am looking to make a fair deal rather than one where I have an "edge" because the player is a friend who has a limited bankroll but is still a good player.
a fair deal would be for an amount that would yield him a comparable amount of money to what he would make playing his normal games. say about 10 an hour for a smaller stakes player. four hours average maybe for lasting in a tourn. so maybe 40 bucks worth of the action. so 20% here. most people think they deserve 40 or 50% but thats absurd unless its for many tournys and makeups apply. the best way is to have him pay part of the buyin and give him a small part of your part. players that have no money involved generally do poorly. if you just want to give charity then thats another situation which applies to most staking in tournaments or ring games.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Tentatively,
Don't bother. You assume 100% of the downside liability while the backee gets a freeroll at some prize. Has this person demonstrated some serious ability? Note on the definition of terms: serious ability is not defined as having your picture in Card Player or being mentioned in Mike Paulle's rgp reports or talking up a good game.
Do they have extensive records showing that for every dollar they invest in a tourney EF, they have earned $1.50 in return? That is the ROI that would be required to merit a 33% free roll. I won't say that most of the people who earn this wouldn't require a backer[1], but I will say that given the distribution of stuck gamblers vs. winning players, the looking for a backer pool is heavily tilted to the former. Somehow this critical mass has created the impression that backing "horses" is a fun and profitable venture. Do you have a very good reason for knowing that this person is on the far end of the curve for this pool of people? I'll bet my firstborn [2] that the aggregate of poker tournament backers are stuck.
In the absence of more information, I recommend no deal as a fair deal.
JG
[1] I do and don't, respectively.
[2] (well only born so far, but we're trying, tho next month won't work as, hey I gotta be at WSOP those 48 hours)
Blinds are 400/800. I'm in the BB with 2000 with 98o. Its folded around to a weak somewhat agressive player in the SB who has a big stack (not sure of the exact total but it was sufficiently larger than mine). He limps, I check Flop: 6 9 10 two spades. He checks. I bet 1200 and he raises enough to put me all in. I call.
I see dont see anything wrong with my post flop play. I have a decent hand with mid pair, backdoor flush draw and a gut shot and thought there was a reasoanble chance he'd fold for a large bet. The call might be a bit weak but I've only got 800 left and half that will have to be posted on the next hand so I decided to take my chances. After the hand, i discussed it with a friend of mine and he saw nothing wrong with the play but I told him I should have raised pre-flop. Not b/c of the strength of my hand but because of the chance that my opponent had a weak hand. He disagreed. Saying that with a hand like 98o it would be best to see the flop and go from there. I argued that the player was weak but had shown agression and I felt he would have raised with Ax, Kx, and other such hands as well as any reasonable hand and the only hands he would call with would be weak hands (meaning almost anything else) and AA and KK. Either way the chance that he held a hand that couldn't stand a raise was good. One example of a similar play was the hand that Huck Seed got knocked out of in the WSOP. He limps with J8 Furlong raises him and Huck pushes all in. He didn't do this b/c he felt he had the best hand but he put Furlong on the type of hand that he wouldn't be able to call a raise with. Thoughts and Comments about the entire hand as well as similar situations would be great.
Here's the problem. With 1600 in the pot, if you raise all-in preflop (for 2000 more), he has an easy call. You are giving him a 9-5 price on a hand where he should know that he's most likely no more than a 2-1 dog (if even a dog). Particularly since his stack is larger than yours, he has an easy call.
I see your point and beleive that a strong player would see it the same way but weak opponents don't think in terms of pot odds. He's only going to call with a good hand. I beleive there are a lot of hands he would call out of the SB then fold for a large raise.
Obviously Huck Seeds idea of what Furlong could call a reraise with and Forlongs idea of what he could call a reraise with were different.Also Furlongs idea of what seed would reraise with differed somewhat from what Seed thought Furlong would have to put him on for this move.I like your idea of going all in before the flop but only if you think this guy will pass a lot of the hands that are favourite against you.Its all down to judgement.After all if Huck Seed knew what the Europeans knew about Furlong things might have been very different.
I'm not sure what you intended to accomplish betting only 1200 on the flop. If you are going to feel obligated to call a raise, you might as well just push all in now.
I agree with you. Normally if a bet is going to commit me to the pot I go all in. It was an error but I don't think it would've changed things.
I don't think raising before the flop would usually be the better play. I think that many opponents who will limp in from the SB here would call the raise (even though they won't like it). However, if you knew that there was a pretty good chance for this guy to fold, then it does, of course, become the correct play. Your (correct) read of the player is the paramount consideration.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Limit HE tourney in Tunica this weekend. I don't have much tourney experience, I was there for the ring games, but I won a satellite so I got to play in the 500 dollar buy in tourney. There was 305 entries and the field has been narrowed to about 120 to 140 players. I am in late position and I have enough chips in front of me to be a little picky about chosing my battles. UTG raises and middle position reraises ( they both have a lot of chips in front of them and I just sat on the table so I don't know a damn thing about either one of them ). I look down and see AKo. I decide to fold. An ace flopped and after they both checked on the flop, they ended up going to a showdown. UTG had pocket KK's and middle position had pocket QQ's. I can't stop thinking about this hand. Did I play it too tight. I ended up not placing in the money, but came close. If I won that hand my chances of placing in the money would have increased dramatically. I need help from you experienced tourney players, would you guys have folded ?
Yes, I would have folded AK to a raise and a re-raise on a new table, and I like AK more than a lot of players do. In the event you had only 3 outs and it could have been a lot worse, a lot of the time someone would have had Aces and you would be dead in the water. It's a pretty dodgy re-raise from the Qs by the sound of it but maybe he thought he had a tell on the Ks and got it wrong.
I can't really imagine that anyone would recommend playing here (I'm interested in your reasoning if you do). If you really have limited tourney experience, then close to the money in a $500 buy-in event is damn good - perhaps you should play a few more.
Andy.
What about a re-raise....KK might muck...then you are heads-up vs. QQ...probably wouldn't do it but if I were to call I would raise in this situation at a new table...remember, not only can you not read them but they don't have a clue how you play either, and being at a new table they are very likely to put you on AA if you raise. Just a thought...plus you mention that they have quite a few chips, so they can raise QQ and not feel bad about it while others are more selective. I too am not a huge fan of AK but you have to take a chance sometime and this is a situation that might warrant that chance...all depends on the timing and my chip count I guess...
Calling a reraise in this situation is almost always suicidal. You would have sucked out and won the pot but you were taking way the worst of it before the flop as you are most of the time in this situation. I remember a final table I was at when I raised under the gun with pocket 10's and by the time it got back to me it was capped. The capper had AK and he flopped an ace but he was up against a set of aces. I mucked my hand preflop and went on to finish second place. The capper who was chip leader busted out the next hand for a ninth place finish. He then told his buddy on the rail, "But they were suited".
Though folding is probably correct it is a lot closer than the other posters make it appear. The reason has to do with card combinations. To simplify let us consider only the reraiser. If you absolutely know that he has queens or better it is 50-50 that he has two queens. Going further, if an ace flops without a king or queen it is now 90% that you have him beaten (9 combos vs 1). If a king flops you are 60%. If you do call, you are getting better than two to one odds. If he has queens you will flop an overpair about a third of the time. If he has a bigger pair he will flop a set that gets you in trouble about 6% of the time. A bigger danger is that he has aces and a king comes. Still with position a call might not be wrong, depending on the opposition.
Sorry folks, but AKo in a biggish tournament for a raise and a re-raise is still just a drawing hand... and you can't ever like it even if an Ace flops! Save your chips and wait for more info on the table and places to agress. I was in a tournament last night, NL, and got AK twice and mucked it to raises both times w/out a qualm, and correctly so...would'a been beaten both times. Nice to raise on... often tough to call. Feedback?
This situation came up in the later stages of the SARGE NL HE Tourney in Tunica. We're down to 2 tables and about 16 players (we paid all 10 players at the final table). Note that the players at the other table were playing "fast" and players were busting out quickly when this hand came up.
I'm 2 off the button with T2700 or so, Blinds are T100-200 and the two big stacks are to my left (T20K or more). I'm delt A6-Hearts, it's folded around to me and I have a "brain fade", deciding to make it T500 to go. The big stack immediately to my left re-raises enough to put me all in and all the others fold. I "huddle" with my cards, mulling over the strong possibility that the big stack that re-raised me (Don Adams - the eventual 2nd place finisher) was trying to bully me out of the hand with nothing. Well, I thought about it for some time and finally concluded that I didn't want to draw against him this close to the final table and folded.
My reasoning was that with T2200, I could "afford" to wait for AA, KK, QQ, JJ or AK in this situation, still making the final table with a small stack if I didn't play another hand. I figured unless I really "gambled" I was too short stacked at this point in the tourney and was basically "playing to get in the money". This is exactly what happened, I didn't get any good cards, the players at the other table continued "gambling and busting out" at a furious pace and I folded my way to the final table.
I guess I'm wondering if I made a quality decision to give up the pot and continue with the "get in the money" goal. Or should I have "gambled" risking a bust out short of the money in order to double up and continue with a better stack.
I think I made the right decision, because I was able to make the final table (although short stacked) and finished 7th in the money for about $240 giving me a net $130 profit for the Tourney (don't tell the IRS - heh).
I guess you could say that my raise to T500 was a big error but my fold after the raise from the big stack won me $240.
Comments?
The raise to T500 was a big mistake. If you wanted to play this hand, you should have made a bigger raise, to show people that you were committed, just so they wouldn't make some play at your short stack. Otherwise, fold it and hope for better the next deal.
After he reraised, you need to fold. There is just too much chance that he has a pair (other than 22-44) or a better A. He might have KQ or a baby pair, but it probably isn't likely enough to justify your call.
As for the get in the money goal, I would never make that my goal (unless it was a WSOP event, where even making the money means quite a few thousand, and where I probably got in for $200 on a satellite). Maximizing your EV should hopefully be your goal every time, and this may mean playing a relatively weak hand (and certainly some hands weaker than AA-JJ or AK) if the situation is correct. I mean, if they all fold to you on the button or SB, and you have any pair or any A, I would be inclined to raise with it.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
I'll be reraising your late position raises all weekend long at the NEPC if this is the way you really play.
But he'll be raising enough that you won't want to.
JG
That's fine Mike, because I would call against you.
Clearly, not knowing the poster's opponent makes it impossible for any of us to be clearly "correct" with respect to our advice of whether to call or fold. Against some opponents, I would call pretty easily, and against most I would fold easily. There aren't many who would make this a borderline decision.
However, the real key here is that I wouldn't have played that hand at all, and if I had I would have raised more, enough more that you're gonna have to show me your AA before I fold to your reraise. And, since it would be clear that I'm committing myself to the hand, you wouldn't be inclined to reraise me unless you thought you had the better hand, which means I won't be getting reraised very often anyway.
Let me know if you think my assessment is off. ;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
P.S. - I am sure that you can out-aggress me no matter what Mike, which is why I would play the hand differently against you than against most players.
I was half-kidding and agree with your assessment. If you see my real post below, my key takeaway was that putting 20% of your stack in with a hand that you are prepared to fold is bad poker. Seems like the same point you made.
If I reraise you on Saturday, I'll make sure I have the goods...
...unless I don't;-)
Doesn't sound like a very fun way to win $240 to me. If this guy was playing his big stack aggresively, I think I call and make a stand. I might even be a slight favorite if he is on a resteal or has only two paints. I might even get lucky if he has a medium pair or Ace-big. Unless he has pocket Aces, you are no worse than a 3-1 dog.
Putting 20% of your stack into the pot and folding to the table bully is not a recipe for tournament success. If this guy (or others) suspect that you are one of those trying to eke into the money, they'yy push you arond all day long and that is probably what he is doing here.
If you're going to raise at all here, you should've moved all-in and been done with it. A call instead of a raise was in order. You made the right decision to fold when reraised though. With your stack, at this late stage, it's less about being pushed around than it is about survival -- the next hand you play should be all-in anyway, so you really don't have to worry about someone viewing you as a pushover.
Unless you are short-handed, those cheesy hands like A-x suited and K-x suited are the quickest ways I know to be eliminated from a NL tourney. Those hands are okay in a limit game because they'll usually only cost you a 1/2 bet or two, but in NL, you really want to just limp -- even in position -- and catch a cheap flop. Out of position, you shouldn't be involved at all. In any event, remember the "5 and 10" rule for those hands.
Earl,
Point well taken. After that "weak assed play" with the $500 raise, I didn't play a hand that I didn't go all in with for the remainder of the tourney. My stack size automatically ment that I was going to get pushed around by the big stacks. I just decided that I had made a mistake with the hand and that I would take a stand with a better hand later.
You attained your goal - got in the money - if that was your goal then Bravo. Now set your sights a bit higher for the top 3 where all the money is.
With big stacks trying to bully pots away you A6 might have been the best hand. He could well have been playing something like KT/Q9 or less in that position. So your fold has a lot to do with your perception of this guy.
I find if I am gonna make a raise in these sort of situations all in is best as it puts the bigger stacks at a disagvantage they can call but can't get you off the hand with a move at the pot.
Since you didn't feel good about the hand you should have mucked it and saved the $500 for a better situation. Frankly you letting him get you off the hand you raised with is not good and these guys will start to play with you in the future.
Now don't feel to bad your A6 was not much of a hand here and your best play was an immediate muck.
We are playing limit holdem with the blinds T1000 and T2000. We are appox. 15 minutes into this level. We are playing 30 minute rounds. There are two tables left with five players at one table and six players left at my table. This is a $20,000 guaranteed tournament. 11th and 10th pay $280. 9th pays $325. 1st pays $8000. The BB has T500and can only post half of his blind. The SB has T1200. The player in secind position raises T2000. I am on the button with T6000 holding pocket JJ's. What do you believe to be my best option? A couple of hands later a first position raiser nearly allin with T2900 raisesto T2000. I am on the button with AQ offsuit. What would you do? I currently have T4500. I believe these two hands are typical of the decisions you have to make during the late stages of many tournaments. What should I be trying to accomplish? How do I go about accomplishing this? I will tell you I got to the last table with T1900. The limits were now being raised to T1000 and T2000. My goal of course is to maximize my chances to win the tournament.
OK, I'll have a shot. My goal would also be to win the tournament so we should hopefully be thinking along the same lines.
The first case is tricky. I'm not bothered about knocking people out at this stage, it'll happen in due course, look out for number one here. It's going to depend on your read of the raiser. I think we need to know how big his stack is - is this a "best chance I'll get" raise or is he comfortable and coming in by choice ? And how loose or tight is he playing ? I don't think I like a call, you don't want anyone else coming in behind you when you have JJ, so re-raise or fold depending on your read.
The second case I think is a little more clear-cut. He is nearly all-in from first position - an aware player is going to make a move here with _a lot_ of hands so he doesn't get blinded away to nothing. I'd probably make the play with any King, never mind any Ace. QT looks massive to him here. Raise (make it clear to those behind you that you are committing to the hand) and I think you will be in front most of the time.
In general, you should be trying to build your stack at this point. With a below-average stack you can't wait for a perfect spot, go for it when the situation feels like it is favourable most of the time. If you have one of the top 3 stacks at this point you can cruise a little and make the last 4, then open up.
One further point, just before the two tables become one is a much better spot for being aggressive than just after - you have fewer opponents and you are paying more per hand in blinds your stack will shrink quickly if you don't get involved.
Hope this helps, comments welcome.
Andy.
At first, I thought that both situations were clear reraises, but after 3 or 4 seconds of thought, I felt that calling might be the best option in both cases.
I think you are the likely favorite if you raise in both cases. However, I think that raising still might not be the best play, even though it is a good play.
In the first hand, you don't give the chip total of the raiser, but your JJ is almost certainly better than whatever he has, especially with the table 6-handed. However, there is an excellent chance that he has at least 1 overcard, and maybe 2. If you reraise, you are putting in half your chips, and will have a hard time getting away from the hand postflop if it's a loser (probably correctly so). Also, if you just call, this will entice the SB into overcalling, while a raise from you will make to easy for him to fold. I kind of like having 2 all-ins sitting there, as it protects the pot and could keep the raiser from trying to steal from me postflop when a Q, K, or A hits the board (but not his hand). Call and see what flops. If you flop an overpair, bet and/or raise on the flop (try to get the raiser to fold his overcards before they hit). If you flop a set, check or call the flop, and do your best to get all the money in (without giving him a good chance to fold). If an overcard hits and he bets, play the player, but be inclined to fold. If he checks an overcard, check along.
In the second hand, the raiser is about to face the big blind, and it will take 1/3 of his stack. He could easily be raising with any hand that he thinks is better than average, even hands as weak as J8o, Q7s, K2o, and the like. I think your AQ is the better hand here at least 90% of the time. Here, raising will be the best play most of the time, but it depends upon the blinds. If you think they are going to fold whether you call or raise, then I like to just call here. If you need to raise to drive them out, then definitely raise. The reason I say this is that the raiser is definitely going to call your reraise, and he will be all-in. You then will win according to the statistics, which is maybe 60% of the time, maybe less. However, what if you just call and the blinds fold? Now, will the raiser check the flop if he misses, hoping for a free card, or will he bluff his last T900, hoping you'll fold? If he will bluff, it's really no different than putting it in preflop (since you'll always call this bet, right?). If he will check, might he fold when you bet? This is the one and only reason to not reraise him all-in preflop. By giving him something to save, you might get him to fold on the flop when he misses, and thereby prevent him from catching up to you on the turn or river. Given the size of the pot when you call (T5500), increasing your chances of winning this is more important than getting T900 more out of him and eliminating him. However, the key again is to be sure of losing the blinds, and most of the time a reraise will be necessary. Sometimes, they will give you a tell that they're going to fold, and if they do, I like just calling preflop.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks Greg,
I didn't read the original post clearly enough. It may be a feeble excuse but if it had been broken into paragraphs it would have been easier :-)
In the first hand, seeing as neither of the blinds can do anything but fold or call all-in, a call becomes a viable option as Greg suggests. All the same, if a raise will help to knock either blind out I might still favour it as you would normally prefer not to have too many all-in hands taking equity away from you.
Andy.
Chico,
I would have re-raised with the pocket JJ's, getting fully committed, and making this my pivotal hand. At this point, when I'm already in the money a little bit, I'm willing to gamble with a premium pre-flop holding and try to get some final table ammunition. If you had done so, and won, the AQ later would have been a much easier decision for you. Bear in mind that, to me, the difference between 11th place and 5th place is pretty insignificant. I'm always going to point my compass to the top three spots.
Chico,
Short handed is a key here for me as I might have played it a lot differently with a full table and since we don't know the stack size of the $2000 raiser I'll assume he is a solid player with as many or more chips as you.
With the JJ I raise all in to isolate the blinds. If the small blind calls with 1200 I have side pot I can win if bb gets lucky. The $2000 raiser now has to make a decision to call my raise or fold it here. I like my position. I am not fooling myself though I consider JJ a medium pair and is beatible so many ways.
AQ - I have been mucking AQ in positions like this when good players raise and call in front of me at full tables. Since we are short handed. I MAY play the hand if I play it I am raising probably all in. Since you are so close to the final table I may muck and let them fight it out.
Your goal is to advance at every stage of the tournament and ultimately have all the chips - in these tight situations I like to get opponents heads up at every opportunity
Id raise with both unless somebody told me the other guy was armed and near the end of his tether.In this case id still reraise with the JJ but consider mucking the AQ if i wasnt carrying myself.
Thank you for your responses. I feel that calling with the JJ is my best option. By putting one third of my stack I can still get away from the hand if I get a bad flop. I hate to admit it but I mucked the JJ's. My thinking was that I would have to commit all my chips if I reraised. The original raiser had more chips than I. He raised this pot with A5 offsuit. This in effect protected the BB as I and the SB folded. I put the original raiser on at least two overcards. If I had called and the flop came favorable as it did then I would have to commit all my chips. As it turned out the BB won the pot and the original raiser had three chips returned to him. Those chips would have been in a sidepot if I had contested the pot.
Moments later the AQ hand occurred. We had lost a player. I elected to put the raiser all in. He had raised with K6d. He flopped a K. On the next hand we consolidated to one table. I believe my reraise to be correct. Others have disagreed. Some tell me I should have folded. Some think I should have called. If I win this pot I get to the last table with T13800. This would allow me to play a couple of rounds with escalating limits.
One final note. The players brokered a deal nine handed. I had nothing to say because of my small chip profile. I took 6th place money $650. I did not understand the chip leaders riticence to play this contest out. If I had won with my AQ I would have been in 5th place. I would have been adverse to a deal.
One thing, I just don't understand these multi-way (9-way in this case) deals. Doesn't anyone enjoy playing poker for a decent amount of money ? This is not criticising Chico who got a good deal for a small stack. But the chip leader must be a complete wuss.
Andy.
Hey Chico nothing to be ashamed of. JJ is no biggie actually I consider it a medium pair nothing much more than 88 in this situation - AQ is a super trap hand and dominated big time by AA KK AK QQ - Like I said I muck it when good players are raising ahead of me.
Mike
Question. Big-bet Hold-Em tournament, down to the last three. What do you do when you have A-small and someone raises in front of you ? Obviously it depends on all the usual factors, let's say your opponent is knowledgeable and aware and you're both raising as much as you should be 3-handed (which is a lot), and you have enough chips to consider a fold.
This came up last night in a home game. I re-raised because I'd had a few beers and we were playing for about $15 :-). But what should you do in a real tourney ?
Andy.
The usual factors are everything. If he will fold all but the very best hands to a reraise, then you can reraise with anything. If he will often call, then you should either fold now, or if his raise isn't too much of your stack, call and see the flop. However, unless you know that you can outplay him postflop, don't bother to call preflop with this hand. Better to call with suited connectors or some other such hand than A-little if you can't get away from an A high flop when you're beat.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I played, well I entered and got some cards, in the NEPC $120 Stud tourney. I lasted a little past the break. I actually had more chips than I started with at one point. It was down hill from there. Goddamn, I hate losing. I hate it even more when I lose and suck too. Did I ,say played. I was there. I made huge mistakes and then I was out. I was miserable. I felt like shit. I wanted to quit playing poker. (the fact that I had tilted in live play a few days earlier was not helping any). Then I played in a 15-30 stud live game and won my entry fee back and decided to go home still feeling like caca(r) (the r is how we say it in Boston). On the way out I passed by the satellite area. My cousin and I entered a $35 stud satellite. I won it! I felt better.
vince.
Gee your cousin can refer to you as "My cousin Vinny"
Come to think of it I have a cousin Vinny too. Of course what Italian doesn't.
Vince good on ya for the satellite win - I know the highs and lows of poker tournament play.
Highs are wonderful and the lows - well I'm just glad I don't have a gun in the car or they'd find me slumped over the wheel with my brains all over the place ala "Pulp Fiction" brain boy.
Cheers Mike
For some reason it hadn't really occurred to me that you two guys are, uh, Italian. I shall choose my words more carefully in the future when addressing either of you. (If that isn't sufficient maybe I should mention that the "K" in my name was just added recently.)
faggetaboutit!
Cousin Vinnie!
Vince,
Terse, concise, thrifty reportage. What's wrong? I was expecting much more, more angst-driven, more self-flagellating, more reflective. Here's hoping for the long version.
Cheers,
John
PS. I think I spotted you, but you were engaged in conversation. Next time I'll stop to say hello.
From Linda Johnson's column at www.cardplayer.com
At the recent Sport of Kings tournament at Hollywood Park Casino, Tournament Director Robert Thompson made several standard announcements, including reiterating the "Keep it clean" policy. My ears perked up as he announced the following: "You have a moral and ethical obligation to bet your hand. Anybody slow-playing a hand so as not to bet against a friend or knock somebody out of the tournament will be given a minimum penalty of 20 minutes away from the table and may be disqualified from the tournament." What a great announcement! I would like to see it become part of the rules that are announced at the beginning of every tournament in every cardroom.
I can't think of any situations offhand, but isn't it possible that you could have a valid strategic reason NOT to want to eliminate a certain player?
I like the idea, particularly the bit about soft-playing a friend, but I wonder how easy it will be to enforce. When someone is all-in, the pot is protected so bluffing doesn't make sense and you need a good hand to bet for value. It puts a lot of pressure on the dealers or whoever is supposed to enforce this to spot real soft-playing. In any case, there are certainly situations where checking to knock someone out is in your best interest even if you have a good hand, when the prize differential to the next place is big.
In the tournaments I play in there is one spot where I might prefer players not to be knocked out. 5 players on each table, 6th-9th places pay a token amount, when everyone tightens up at this point you can steal a lot of chips. When someone is knocked out, you go to the final and 9-handed you have to wait for some cards. I'm happy when no-one gets knocked out for a while here but I probably wouldn't go out of my way to keep anyone in.
Let us know how this goes because, as I say, it sounds well-intentioned but could prove very difficult to enforce.
Andy.
I think the situation where someone is all-in would be the most common example where obviously there is no reason to bet. Frequently, you will only be called by the remaining player if he has you beat. Of course, if he KNOWS you can't be bluffing because of the situation, you can sometimes knock out a made hand and win a showdown against an all-in draw with a weak hand.
Tough play to pull off, but it is possible. And, rightly or wrongly, you can expect an earful from the player who you knocked out of the hand (I would content myself with a hard stare).
Andy.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
One interesting time you would want to consider not knocking someone out is when there are two fivehanded tables, that will be combined when the next person goes broke, especially in a tournament that pays nine spots. If you have the most chips, while everybody else is moderately short stacked, you can usuall completely run over the table, accumulating more and more chips as everyone is throwing all but the best hands away waiting for someone else to go broke. So if you do find yourself about to bust someone , it might be wiser to opt not to, and let him save a bet or two in hopes of keeping this situation going as long as possible.
That was the situation I was trying to describe. It's interesting to compare my post and David's, even though we are describing the exact same situation, David's is much clearer and more concise. I suppose it'll be a while before I can write that definitive tournament book.
Either that or I need to win a WSOP bracelet to make David read my posts, which will take even longer.
:-)
Andy.
Andy - David does write well. But so do you.
Buzz
.
I'd like to see holecards turned up all the time when the betting is over for a hand. Some have the rule for final table only but I like to see it through out the tournament.
The rule is impossible to enforce - I wish it wasn't.
The blind position could also dictate caution. If a player is about to be forced to go all-in, betting to knock him out might not make sense. Better for him to go all-in on a random hand than a calling one.
horrible rule. who makes the decision that someone is softplaying and not using a strategy that he feels helps his chances. maybe i dont want to break a person sitting in a certain seat because he may bet often and bring players around to me. or maybe im good at catching his bluffs so i want him in the game to get chips from others then i can get them from him. maybe he is real tight and he has the blind on my button. then his blinds are a gift, and it may be better to keep him around. this is what happens when non poker players make the rules.
Does anyone know of a sight that has the updated results of the events played so far at the World Poker Open?
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Thanks partly to being on the good end of a very bad beat (later), I had made it to within 1 of the final table when I made a move so dumb I can hardly believe it now: the shortest stack moved all-in, the table's chip leader called, and I called, too (??!). All I had to do was wait for the short stack to get knocked out and I'd be at the final table. Instead we both got knocked out and tied for 9-10th ($862 each). Oi vey.
Of course I was very pleased to finish in the money at all. Even if I hadn't, it was a whole lot of fun.
And, "Fossilman" -- it was great to finally meet you. I hope you will post about your experience.
OK, the bad beat: Being very low on chips about 6 or 7 hours into the tourney, I raised all-in with A4 suited and had 1 caller, who had something like AK or KK. The flop was K-x-2 and then the turn and river came 3 and 5 for the straight!
On the negative side: Why do they make the structure so slow that it takes over 12 hours to get to the final table? Is it to attract more people who feel that at least they'll get several hours of play for their money? I heard several players complaining about this.
Kate wrote: >And, "Fossilman" -- it was great to finally meet you.
Thank you. It was really my pleasure.
>I hope you will post about your experience.
Nothing postworthy. A few good plays, a few bad plays, a few suckouts. 30th place out of 318, but no cash return. sigh.
>On the negative side: Why do they make the structure >so slow that it takes over 12 hours to get to the >final table? Is it to attract more people who feel >that at least they'll get several hours of play for >their money? I heard several players complaining about >this.
It just goes to show that you can't please a poker player. Typically, the complaint is the opposite, that the structure is so fast that it's a crapshoot, not a tournament that rewards skill. Mike Ward has done a great job, IMO, in making the major tourneys at FW the best he can. One great thing is the fact that you DO get time to play real poker, and don't have to gamble with garbage before the blinds eat you up. The rounds in this event, and every event, are 45 minutes (actually, it's an hour in some majors at FW). For this size of buyin, I know of no other tourneys that offer more than 30 minute rounds. Also, by the time you get to the higher levels, you've probably played 2-3 extra rounds, because Mike doesn't make them double every level. Overall, the more skillful player will do better, and the recreational players will get more playing time before going broke. I think it's a win-win scenario, especially since the weak players won't realize that they're at a greater disadvantage, since they last longer.
I think anyone who is complaining about this is someone who is just looking to complain about whatever they can find. I'd rather increase my chances of winning the money, even if it means that I will sometimes play for many hours before I lose (and I spent 9 hours to finish 30th for nothing on Saturday).
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Re tournament structure, you make a good point -- it is an excellent deal. I guess my problem is trying to have my cake and eat it too -- play in the tourneys and still carry on with most of my usual life 90 minutes away. I'll have to bite the bullet and make it a poker week next time. However I am going to try to make the limit tournament on Thursday.
I thought the structure of the tournament was great the 45 min. rounds enable you to play poker .There is no immediate pressure because of the limits as some other low buy in tournaments.Where did they find these dealers at least half the dealers were terrible ,it seems that when ever we had aside pot the players had to straighten it out.Some of the live games I played in some of the dealers had trouble gettingn the antes straight if they had to make any kind of change.Despite this ,I had alot of fun playing in the satellites and the first two tournaments.
Some Poker players should carry crackers and cheese around to go with all the whine they spew out.
I like the longer rounds and slower climb the the huge blind limits - for a bunch of reasons. I find some weaker players can play good poker for a few hours but wear down over a longer period.
Greg too bad about the 9 hours and congrats to Kate on her on her in the money finish.
Poker tournaments are crule and heartless beasts. Saturday I played my heart out and finished 21st (paid 1st 20) It was an equivelent $400 buy in and I played 6+ hours getting 2 pairs all day QQ & JJ both fo which I mucked.
Now who is whining :-)
Rounder Thanks, and too bad about your stud tourney. Finishing 1 out of the money must really be frustrating. If you're going to be there Thursday for the limit tourney, can you give me some hints to recognize you? Kate
Kate it was a HE tournament I haven't played stud in over 2 years. Won't be there but planning a few trips to the WSOP.
My pic is on Dicks poker page can be found in Fav links - hey why don't you send Dick your pic there are no gals on it yet.
HE, right (Duhh!). Photo gallery -- good idea.
I had made it to within 1 of the final table when I made a move so dumb I can hardly believe it now: the shortest stack moved all-in, the table's chip leader called, and I called, too (??!). All I had to do was wait for the short stack to get knocked out and I'd be at the final table. Instead we both got knocked out and tied for 9-10th ($862 each). Oi vey.
If you had any kind of hand at all, it was only a dumb move if your goal was to come in 9th..... If you were planning on winning, calling is the only move. You're in the money. You have a chance to triple up (or better if there are still players to act after you). The short stack will move in with anything. The chip leader will call with anything to knock out the short stack. If you look at the Risk (a couple hundred dollars) vs. the Reward (the chance to win $18,000 and your TOC qualification) I think the reward out weighs the risk by a very large margin. Stop kicking yourself, ya dun good!
We are playing with blinds of T15 and T30. I am in the BB with T 335 after posting the BB. I am holding two black fours. The first position player makes it T90 to go. We pick up two callers. There is T335 in the pot for me to win if I call T60. I call. The flop is 6h6cQh. I bet my remaining T275. I win the pot uncontested. Do you like preflop call? Do you like my bet on the flop?
Chico,
the preflop call: Itīs a close call, but you might double up if the flop comes something like A94.
the bet on the flop: I donīt really like it. Would you have called preflop with 76s or A6s? If the other player give you credit for having the 6 in you hand AND wonīt call theirselfs preflop with a hand containing a 6 AND will fold a Q in this case, the bet might be correct. But you still can play against QQ or (unlikely) 66. Itīs sort of gambling IMO which I donīt see any reason for, because you got a nice stack.
Regards
m.a.
It is the way I would have played it IF I got - didn't hit the flop tells from opponents.
The call is OK although a lot of people think you need a certain sized pot to go for the possible set but I make this play a lot in NL. If the small set hits you are on your way to a big pay off.
How would you have played the hand if you did hold a 6?
If you could have moved in on the flop with that hand, and the opponents know it, then what you did is OK. If you would more likely have slowplayed trips, and they know it, then moving in on the flop will get you broken by a good player who has a Q, and who knows you don't have a 6.
I think the call preflop is fine. You're getting an immediate 5:1 on the call, and should be able to get enough out of somebody if you flop a set to make up the insufficient odds against flopping a set. You might have considered an all-in reraise preflop also. If the opponents are the right type, they might lay it down to your obvious big pair, even though they were willing to gamble and see the flop for the T90. If you think they'll lay it down often enough, or only one will call (and he'll have overcards, NOT an overpair), then the reraise may be the better play.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Its difficult to imagine how the other players are going to believe you have a six here unless you have a reputation for calling raises with garbage.Its even less plausible when you bet as the type of player who will play with a six is normally a fully paid up member of the checkaroundtotheraiser club.
Went up for a 3 day weekend and had the following results.
Satellites: Played 7 (if you include the Stud hi-lo, which I don't know how to play); won or chopped 3, including a two-table $165 buy-in. Total net profit of $1420
$120 w/rebuy NLH Tourney: Busted out in grand fashion after 3+ hours of unispired play.
Managed to tap into TWO guys holding the hand that I was representing. I have T650 and hold KcQs on the button. Call one loose early limper and one late limper. SB folds and BB calls for a flop of JcTcTd. Check-Check-bet of $150. I say "yum-yum, this guy has no ten and I am going to steal this nice $375 pot." I move in. Blind thinks and calls. Early guy moves in for another $150. Original better folds (says he had J9s) and BB calls. They both have AT, no clubs. Nice read, Michael. I pick up a flush draw on the turn, but make only a futile pair of Qs on the river. Net loss of $220.
Ring Games: $350 loss in 3 hours in a tough $20/$40 HE game.
Craps (yes, CRAPS): +$185
Blackjack: +$360
WSOP Champions I busted out: None (I guess they were all at Tunica.)
Last Longer Bets with Buddies: +$20 from Peter Alson
2+2 Sightings: 1 (Fossilman, of course)
Bad Beats Taken: None notable, other than coming over the top of a guy that limped UTG with AA when I had AKs
Bad Beats delivered: 1 (gut shot justified by pot odds)
Beers Consumed: Too many.
Net for trip: +$1395
Michael,
Glad to see that you had a profitable weekend. I look forward to kicking your butt on 7/17 during the big NL HE tourney. I should be at FW all day from Friday 7/14 thru Monday 7/17. From noon kickoff until I win each event! And if not, then until I win each Midnight Madness!
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Excuse my curiosity, but how did you find the Hi-Lo satellite that you "don't know how to play" ? I ask because I'm always interested as to how much of tournament strategy is independent of the actual game being played and how much is game-specific. I would guess that the Hi-Lo aspect makes more of a difference than Hi-only Stud vs Holdem vs Omaha. Was this the case ?
Andy.
All you guys played at least 100 hrs total and not one hand that was interesting!!!!
Come On Fossil Not One!!!
I was there Sat afternoon but I didn't see you.
Good Luck To all
paul
$165 two-table NLH satellite with T1000 in starting chips.
It's a tough table and I should have a pretty solid image as I have only played a few hands, but all of them aggresively.
I have about T1500 and post the BB at the 10/25 blind level. Alan Miller, a tough player is first in from middle position and makes it $55 to go.
It is folded to me and I call with pocket fives.
Flop is 77T rainbow.
I check, he bets 100 and I call, setting up for a big play on the turn. I don't give him a seven, but don't think he can rule out my having one since he is in the BB and I am some unknown kid to him.
Turn is an offsuit King. I check, planning to check raise. He raps behind me. I think he smells a trap and wants to show the and down.
The river is a deuce.
I bet 300, since I don't wnt to CALL a bet on the river, but may NOT have the best hand.
He thinks for a while and folds.
he was going the speed limit 55..pocket fives
Heres one from the $120 Foxwoods limit holdem..big blind is $50 but he is away from the table smoking I have $500 in chips 4th to act i raise $100 with pocket 8`s hoping no one calls I get reraise i just call looking for an 8 on the flop ..flop comes A,K,9 i check and fold to the reraiser who bets.any comments on my raise with the big blind not at the table.
I cant drive 55.
120 Stud Tourney.
16 players left.
I'm on the rail watching.
Antes $150
Bring in 300.
1000-2000 level.
Kid in position mid positino with ~ T12000 limps in with 7d,9d/Ts.
Old man with ~ T2000 limps in from late position with 6c showing.
One other caller and the bring in. 4 see fourth street.
Old man gets the Tc. The Kid gets the 6d. Kid bets. Two folds, then the old man calls.
Fifth street, Kid gets the Qd. Old man gets the 4h Kid bets, Old man calls.
Sixth street. Old man gets the Qc. Kid gets the Jh and bets. Old man calls.
Old mans board on sixth: 6c,Tc,4h,Qc. Kids hand on sixth; 7d,9d/Ts,6d,Qd,Jh.
By now the kid has most of his stack in the pot. I am thinking to myself that's what he gets for playing a drawing hand. I put the Old Man on a pair of sixes and maybe a flush draw and figured the Kid would get called down on seventh street. I was smug in my anaysis when the kid catches the Qh on the river for a pair of Queens and checks. To my surprise the Old Man bets. I now figure I had the Old Man on the wrong hand and he probably had a flush and was baiting the Kid. The Kid calls. The Old Man turns over a 6 blank, blank for a pair of 6s and the Kid wins a big pot.
When it was over I convinced myself that the Kid played correctly only on sixth street and seventh street. But what do I know.
vince. Kid bets, old man calls.
Vince,
The strange thing is the 6's almost took it down.
paul
I thought the strange thing was starting with 7d,9d/Tc.
Vince
"1000-2000 level.
Kid in position mid positino with ~ T12000 limps in with 7d,9d/Ts.
Old man with ~ T2000 limps in from late position with 6c showing."
Did you mean T 20,000 otherwise the old man would of been all in early??
That doesn't surprise me I take a shot with those three cards probably too much. It's easy to get away from if someone raises and you think it's going to be heads up or the 4th card is a brick. In this case he hit a three flush and a gut shot straight almost the perfect card to bet with. I assume no 8's were out.
Vince the place was packed Sat too crowded for me the boards were overflowing I would of had to wait over an hour maybe even two to play so I jenuflected out of there.
Good Luck If you go down again
paul
20000
Down to 3 players, myself with T1400, Scott Byron (works at the Mayfair Club in NYC, and is a VERY good player) with T1000, and Dr. Will Noyes (another VERY good player) with T2600. Blinds are at 50,100. Scott folds the button, and I raise to T250 with A6o. Will calls.
Flop is AK8 with 2 spades. I check, he bets T200, I hesitate and think, and then call. My intent is to trap him, since I'm sure that he has one pair of Ks at best, and he is a very aggressive player. Also, he has bought into the midnight madness NL HE 2-table satellite, and that event has started, so he is eager to get this satellite over with and play that one. We had just made a deal to save $100 each in this satellite.
Turn is Qh. Both check.
River is 4c. I bet all-in, Will calls quickly.
What do you think?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks Greg,
Since I'm so good at these I'll say he has KQ and out sandbagged you.
Paul
My guess is he has 2 pair or a bigger ace - If he is as good a player as you say can't see him calling you with nothing less or he makes for a bluff which I doubt.
TJo. Hit his 4-outer and broke me.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Looks like your (slow) play cost you - better "luck" next time FM.
Limit HE tournament - I decide to see a 3 bet flop with TT - what the heck I have a nice chip lead and I put the raisers on big pairs. 5 callers 15 sb in the pot - flop it KJQ - 2 guys hit the flop - I can see it the other 2 didn't hit what ever they were looking for I call 2 sb now 21 sb in the pot. Turn is an A - check bet call ckraise fold I call looking for the magic J - river is a J I know this guy has a set of paint - he checks I bet he makes a crying call - I show my TT - I must be a maniac or lost me mind.
No I am playing like any other 2+2 - I had pot odds and it came good. I am hardley ever on the winning end of a bad beat but it worked this time. Now back to my semi-tight semi aggressive game -
Flop was KQ7 rainbow.
There ain't no way you'r getting correct pot odds to play for runner runner especially if you consider you might be playing for half the pot!
I agree. Rounder better leave the pot odds to the 2+2 crowd who understand them. Given that you put your opponents on an overpair, it is likely that you were drawing dead, except to runner-runner tens or a runner-runner straight. And the straight is not likely to get much action on the river, but the pot is likely to get jammed on the turn.
Your implied odds suck.
But what do I know, I am not winning anywhere near 5x my money at tournament play.
15-1 isn't eneough to see a flop - gee some of the guys here think it is ok to see a flop with ANY 2 cards at this price. 19-1 to see a gut shot which I recon is 4:46 - 11-1 why don't I have the odd to make this play as loose as it seems to me - please explain.
Oh shit maybe I don't want to know I don't want to get in the habbit of making this sort of play. :-)
Sorry rounder, I tried to explain in the wrong place. Additionally, i said the odds of a runner-runner straight here were 10 to 1, but I thin they are closer to 20 to 1, compounding the mistake.
apology accepted by me
it's ok.
Calling before the flop was certainly correct.
Calling ON the flop was marginal at best, due to the following:
1) I think you were getting about 10 to 1 on the call, assuming you called the 2 bets cold, and you knew the flop couldn't get raised again.
2) Since you put the raisers on "Big pairs", there is a decent likelihood that you are up against a set of queens or kings, so a ten might just lose you more chips.
3) Since two other players obviosuly like the flop, you ar likely to face calling at least 2, and possbily 3 big bets if you do pick up a straight draw on the turn, and will probably only gain 1 river bet if you hit.
Here is an illustrative estimate of your implied odds under certain assumptions:
On the flop, there are 19 sb to potentially be won in the pot, before you make any additional "investement"
4 sb x two players = 8 sb on the turn (assuming the pot is bet, raised, and called by you and your opponents on the turn if you catch an A or J)
2 sb on the river (assuming you complete the straight and get one guy to pay you off)
That is a total of 29 sb of opponent's money you can win. But you must invest 2 sb on the flop and likely 4 sb on the turn in order to do so. That is 6 sb total that you must risk BEFORE you have a winning hand. 29/6 is approximately 5 to 1 odds.
Hitting a runner-runner straight is about a 10 to 1 dog. If you think the a ten might also be good, this makes the decision a little closer as you win an additional 8% of the time.
Seems like a pretty clear fold unless you think it is going to be unraised on the turn or you will get excessive action on the river.
This play is not ME by any means - but I did it for one reason - I had a lot of chips and my raises were getting way to much respect. So Even if beat here I was gonna advertise I was on a long shot draw. It worked - I got less respect for my raises and it cost me - I think I'll keep the respect and win the smaller ones - I really don't make much of a maniac anyway.
Just finished my '99 taxes and I have sumarized my tournament stats. I'd like to know how they compare to others - It is the 1st year I have played tournaments and didn't get serious until June - so here they are.
Casinos in Nevada, Cal and Arizona - 89 entered, made break 85%, final table 38%, won 8 winning money ratio 4.86 - in other words I won $4.86 for each dollar I invested in tournament entry fees. Just missed payoff "way to many times".
This year my final table rate is a bit lower but I have already won 5 and am placing on average higher when I do make the final table.
Most of the tournaments I play in have from 100-120 entered and entries usually range from $30 to $100 some with rebuys.
If any want to share their stats I be interested in seeing them.
You actually had time to play in 89 tournaments last year.Wow.
well for 6 months I have played 54 so far this year.
I use Chipps software to keep track of my tournament play. This software is not Y2K compliant by the way. All my work this year appears at the beginning of 1900. I have played in 425 tournaments. This includes three WSOP events and the innagural TOC. It also includes satelites and many $15 events. I have played 1307 hours over four years and three months. As of today I am winnning $21. This is $.02/hour. My biggest score is $5200. These figures are succinct. These figures are for entry fees only. If hotel, airfare, gasoline, books, meals and all misc. expenses are included I am stuck $5000
I haven't got the full breakdown here (at work) but my little printout tacked to my desk says 148 tournaments, 22 finals, profit Ģ625. That's in two and a half years. I know that the most I was down was Ģ600 and the highest I have been up was Ģ1200 about 3 months ago. Not enough to give up the day job but I don't want to do that anyway. I always feel that I am a much better player than I was six months ago so hopefully I can improve these stats by the end of the year.
Andy.
Iīve played 44 tourneys this year (super-satellites included), most of them with buy-ins from 250 - 500 austrian schillings (~ 20 - 40$), one with a buy in of5000 ats and one with 20.000 ats (i won a satellite for this tourney).
Most tourneys had about 60 - 100 players, few more, some less (super-satellites), but I just managed to finish in the money 12 times .This would be nice at majors, but the competition in this tourney is often really bad. This is why Iīm not very satisfied with this record, on the other side I managed to finish top 3 5 times (winning 3 and making a deals once heads up) which I think is quite good.
My problem is that I think I make too many rebuys. I invested 87.000 (including the "big one") to win 115.000 ats (including the buy in for the "big one"). Reason is that I Probably play too loose during the rebuy period, but Iīm a pretty bad player shortstacked. So my tourney strategie is usually to play loose aggressive before the break to accumulate a lot of chips, after the break, when the other player are still loose I play supertight and loose up a lot again and play very aggressive when even the bad players start to tighten up.
Has anyone had the same problem? Or is it ok to make a lot of rebuys as long as you still win, even if itīs just a little bit?
Finally I gotta say that I really love to play tourneys. I think I would make more money playing ring games (at least my hourly rate this year is way better in ring games) but I simply enjoy the competition.
Regards
M.A.
My lifetime tourney experience:
Date casino Type buy-in place net (incl.tip)
+ rebuy 1999 Mohegan HE 15 ~50/90 -15 1999 Mohegan HE 15 ~50/90 -15 12/4/99 Mohegan HE 20 2/90 +541 deal w/1st 2/8/00 Foxwoods NL 55 ~20/35 -55 2/12/00 Foxwoods HE 30 ~25/100 -30 3/5/00 Foxwoods HE 30 ~25/100 -30 12-Mar Foxwoods HE 30 ~25/100 -30 3/?/00 Foxwoods NL 55 ~20/35 -55 8-Apr Foxwoods NL 220 9.5/316 +643
TOTAL +$854
nt
109 Tournaments in 1999 (Long)
Note: I wrote this January, but did not post it because I could not upload the images on the 2+2 server. I can understand not wanting to cause system admin headaches, but the images really help the stats. So I will post it anyway. With tax time and the WSOP this month, I thought it would be appropriate to submit it now.
I played in my first tournament in Febuary 1999 and won 5th place. It was so much fun that I decided to dedicate myself to being a winning tournament player. However, after diligently tracking my results and being a dedicated student, I have found the results to be disappointing. The summary of these results are at the end of this note.
I track every tournament I have entered and record buy-ins, rebuys, number of rebuys, bounties, tips, time duration, how many contestants, and my placing in the field. Most of the tournaments were the low cost daily and weekly ones held at local casinos. 79 were buy-ins of less than $50; 14 were buy-ins of less than $100; 9 were buy-ins of less than $150; the rest were FreeRolls. These are the buyins without the rebuys added in, just to get a sense of the size of the tournament. I spent most of my time in the low cost tourneys to learn the basics. I found that when I tried to step up to the next level of tournament, that I was prepared mentally and did not fare too badly in placings, but because of the infrequency of being in the money that my bankroll suffered.
The following is a list of the number of different types of tournaments played. I include Satellites as a separate category because they are one table tournaments regardless of the game.
|
Count of Net | |
|
Game |
Total |
|
7Stud Hi-Lo | 7 |
|
Hold em | 45 |
|
Hold em Hi/Lo | 10 |
|
Hold em No Limit | 2 |
|
Hold em/Omaha Hi/Lo | 1 |
|
Omaha Hi/Lo | 41 |
|
Satellite | 3 |
|
Grand Total | 109 |
The following is a list of total money won in the different categories. I seem to do well with Omaha Hi/Lo and not bad in 7 Stud Hi/Lo considering only 7 were played. My Holdem average is low and I suck at No Limit Holdem. These stats may bear out the fact that Holdem players are tougher to beat and the fields are much larger.
|
Game |
Grand Total |
|
7Stud Hi-Lo | 410 |
|
Hold em | 770 |
|
Hold em Hi/Lo | 233 |
|
Hold em No Limit | 0 |
|
Hold em/Omaha Hi/Lo | 0 |
|
Omaha Hi/Lo | 1350 |
|
Satellite | 125 |
|
Grand Total | 2888 |
| 2888 | |
As many have realized most of the money is made in the highest places in the tournament, with First Place paying the best. This verifies that winning is paramount to success. Placing in the money is nice, but the top 3 places are the money winners. The following is a chart of total dollars won based on coming in Nth place.
Now most of these stats just prove what the pros have been saying all along. But what about me? Do I suck? I knew I was playing better and better. I had good days and bad days, but overall I felt I was playing well. So I ran the chart to see how I was placing within the field of contestants. I was in the top ten percent 4.5% of the time. I was in the top twenty percent one time out of five, about the same as a flush draw. Even though the bell curve is weighted towards the higher end, I am working on skewing it even more towards to the top percentile.
Now for the part that really counts. Did I make money? No, I lost money. What surprised me the most was the hourly cost of tournaments. The "cheap" tournaments cost a lot when you consider rebuys and addons, then divide by the hours played. Getting knocked out after an hour and half or two hours is common. When I moved up to the bigger tournaments in July and October I took my biggest hit. With the peaks and valleys the average hourly cost was $11 per hour.
| 1999 Tourney Hours | $/Hr |
Average Hours | ||
| (11.02) | 19.68 | |||
| Hours | $/Hr | |||
| Dec-99 | $ (56) | 5.50 | $ (10.18) | |
| Nov-99 | $ (134) | 25.00 | $ (5.36) | |
| Oct-99 | $ (454) | 21.00 | $ (21.62) | |
| Sep-99 | $ (392) | 24.00 | $ (16.33) | |
| Aug-99 | $ (353) | 29.25 | $ (12.07) | |
| Jul-99 | $ (541) | 17.25 | $ (31.36) | |
| Jun-99 | $ (241) | 20.50 | $ (11.76) | |
| May-99 | $ (138) | 33.00 | $ (4.18) | |
| Apr-99 | $ 4 | 22.50 | $ 0.18 | |
| Mar-99 | $ (313) | 14.50 | $ (21.59) | |
| Feb-99 | $ 52 | 4.00 | $ 13.00 | |
| $ (2,510) | SubTotal | 216.50 | ||
I can rationalize these results many ways. I am a recreational player and this hobby costs me $11 an hour. I was just a beginner and I am much better now; my results next year will be better. Besides it was worth it. I love the competition. I play against very good players and it improves my game; I have played with T.J. Cloutier and others.
So as a result I am more dedicated than ever to improve my results and become a winning tournament player. I have read 'Poker Tournament Tactics for Winners' by D.R.Sherer; 'The Secret to Winning Big in Tournament Poker' by Ken Buntjer; 'Poker Tournament tips from the Pros' by Shane Smith; and 'Poker Tournament Strategies by Sylvester Suzuki. If I pick up even one good idea from a book and use it, then the book is worth it.
I may have lost, but I am not defeated.
Keith O
Nice report I didn't get all the charts but I get the idea. I don't think hourly rate is very important in tournament play, but I am thinking about it.
Unlike you I only play HE - this year I tried 3 Omaha tournaments and placed 3rd & 8th but I don't think it is my game. Tooooo many cards to worry about my little head just can't cope.
Most of my wins and success came at NL.
Rounder,
Your win/in-the-money rate seems very high at 38%. My in the money rate (including wins) hovers between 17% to 21%. I am trying to improve this. I was talking to a 20+ year pro who told me that a 20% to 25% rate was normal for tournaments.
Also, I recently read David Sklansky's tournament article in his "Poker, Gaming and Life" book. He used a model that assumed 55 in-the-money wins out of 200 tournaments (27.5%) to be profitable. I thought the article was thought provoking (and reassuring since I had not hit my first 200 yet), however, I was wondering if it needed to be revisited to reflect real life results. I know that their (S&M) ring game hourly rates are based on real life results.
I like your contributions to the forum.
Keith O
Keith,
The average % win rate is simply the number of places paid divided by the average number of players in the tournament. It doesn't make a lot of sense to quote 20 to 25 % without specifying the number of runners. In any case the only stat that really matters is how much $$ you are up or down. If you focus too hard on finishing in the money you may be costing yourself in the long run because you don't win enough.
I expect you probably know all this anyway. There's no need to be disheartened about your results. Think back six months or a year. Were you making mistakes that you don't make now ? If the answer is yes, and it should be, your results dating back more than a year ago are less significant to how well you will do in the next year.
Good luck,
Andy.
You are right Andy - the $$ is all that really counts in the end. Hey can you give me some Idea what I am looking forward to in the 25 and 50 pound buy in PL tournaments in the UK. I have played with a lot of Brits in the US and respect their play I guess the best players would be here competing in the majors.
How is the average play - loose tight etc.
Thanks Mike
Tight
Depends where you play. Games in London tend to be tighter but "out in the sticks" it can get a bit wild. I can assure Padraig that the Ģ20 games in Luton are anything but tight. Ģ20 re-buys for 75 minutes, 50 runners, Ģ4000 prize pool is not unusual which equates to an _average_ of 3 re-buys per player.
Ģ50 I'm not sure, I may play one at the weekend, but in my experience of Stud the Ģ50 games are a fair bit tighter than the Ģ20 games although there are still quite a few people with lots of money who like to gamble. Even on any given night it can vary tremendously from table to table. Just strap yourself in and enjoy the ride :-)
Andy.
Sorry Andy.Of course youre right.Im based in Paris so most of the English players I come across these days are your Victoria Club types who play about as tight asit is possible to play while still remaining at the table.I do recall playing in the Midlands where the players were a lot looser and less serious.I agree with your assertion that at the end of the year its the money won that matters.A fixation with finishing in the money can be counterproductive .Prize structures favour winners over plodders.
Andy,
"The average % win rate is simply the number of places paid divided by the average number of players in the tournament. "
No, this is what I was referring to as "Placing Percentile", how I placed within the field.
The win rate was the percentage of times I made more dollar$ than I put in tourney entry fees, rebuys and add-ons. Why I was putting emphasis on this rate was because the higher it is the more dollars won. But, statistically, this number is not clearly defined. For example, in a ring game the 1 to 1.5 big bets per hour rate is pretty well accepted as the winning ring game rate.
Sorry for the confusion.
Keith O
Tonight in a limit tournament I mucked a J9s in mid position with 2 limpers and 5 behind me. My cards got knocked over and I was criicized - one guy said he would raise with them and the way he plays he probably would.
Geesh I wish I could catch some hole cards when I am at a table like thes.
Hope seeing this doesn't make them play better.
More inforation need. At what stage of the tournament. What were the blinds?
You need to fix your wrist. Practice at home before the WSOP.
3rd round - blinds 25/15 - dealer hit them in mid air.
Instead of tossing them. Slide them to the center.
Suprised the hell out of them when I check raised 2 maniacs preflop with my 85s - then proceeded to make a full house on the turn - gosh I am getting loose.
Last night I was playing some HE with a fairly average table. I had been raising and showing down these AK hands all night. Finally I got A5s 2 off the button. No one in yet and I decide to raise. Blinds both call. Flop comes 553. Mmm...sweet money. Checked to me and I bet both calling. Blank falls on the turn and we get into a small raising war. Another blank on the river and I get called by the BB. I show down my hand, BB mucks, and SB looks over at the BB in confusion and says "But he raised..." It took some effort not to laugh at that as I piled up the chips.
Dan
Half the time these idiots don't even realize WHO raised.
It's so pleasant to hear y'all refer to the rest of the players as "these idiots". A lot of the rest of us are not as articulate and verbose as you constant posters yet we're there a lot in the poker rooms sitting next to you with our own thoughts, starting hand requirements and agendas. The squeaky wheels don't always get the grease... a lot of the time they just make the most noise.
I'm not sure I get your post but on the positive side.
We don't practice much PCism here. And don't take it personally no offense was meant by me.
For someone who does his fair share of responding to posts on the 'Beginners Questions' forum I am surprised at your choice of words!
I sat yesterday at the final table for the first time in a TH pot limit tournament and I was not sure how to play it correctly. I came in with a reasonable amount of chips (7000) and the chip leader had something like 11000. After a couple of hands my stack had gone down to 2000 due to some bad luck (or bad play?) and the ante was at 500. As the button was at me I figured I had to take a chance here and I held queen, three in diamonds. The first to bet raised the pot so it was 1500 to me with no others in. Should I have fold and tried to see another round of cards or was it a correct call? Later, it turned out that the original bettor held pocket aces and I didn't catch any cards on the flop or river.
Well, you don't say how exactly you went from 7000 down to 2000 so it's hard to comment. If you went with the best hand and got drawn out you shouldn't be too self-critical. In general if you have an above average stack at the start of the final it is better to lie a little low - but of course spring into action when you have the best hand. Let the small stacks get knocked out and then open up when you reach the last 4 or 5 players when aggression really starts to pay.
As to your final hand, the fact that someone has already raised makes a huge difference. This means that you will not win the blinds without a fight, and that you are almost certainly up against a better hand (depending on the raiser). It's much better to take a shot when you are the first one in (or at least no-one has raised) because then everyone else might have junk. There's no chance of that here. If everyone had folded to me on the button with Q3 I might still fold anyway - it's marginal, depends on the blinds. But in a raised pot this is a clear fold. You have a whole round to wait for a better situation (note: not necessarily a better hand).
Good luck,
Andy.
Not a good call, simply because you don't have much of a hand nor any weapons left to fight with. As Andy noted in his post, it would've been risky to even make a move at the blinds with that hand. You would've been much better served to wait for a pair or a "20-21" hand with no one already in. Not only is a suited baby Queen not good enough to call with, but neither is a suited baby King (and a weak suited Ace is very marginal, depending upon the raiser).
Congrats on making your first final table.
Earl,
Does this mean that you prefer hands like QJ and JT to Ax in the situation where no one has come in yet and there are 3 or 4 people behind you ?
Andy.
nt
Thanks Earl,
Makes sense. In the heat of the moment I sometimes find myself thinking "well Ax is favourite over KQ, so it must be better" but in the cold light of analysis that is patently not true.
In case anyone is wondering, there are few hands against which Ax is much better than KQ (maybe only KK, KQ) but several against which KQ is much better than Ax (A-medium, medium pair, KJ etc.)
Andy.
I think some folks get confused about this issue because heads-up, A-x suited is naturally a small favorite over, say, K-J suited. But as you note, having two overcards versus the RANGE of potential hands is much better than having the one overcard with the suited possibility. (As wise players often observe, just being suited is only a small luxury, not a big one.)
For example, Q-J unsuited against a pair of 8s is a very small dog (almost 50-50), whereas A-3 suited is a 2-1 dog when facing 8-8. Having A-3 suited against a big Ace (i.e., A-J) leaves us a little worse than 2-1, while, as you noted, having K-Q against a hand such as A-J leaves you no worse than 3-2 against.
In your example showing the hands where we are really hurting, A-3 suited against K-K is a little worse than 2-1 dog, while K-Q against K-K is a HUGE dog (10-1 against). Thus the only time the raiser with "20" is really in bad shape is when they run into the big pairs, but then again, we're always in bad shape when we raise into a bigger pair. If we're so unlucky as to run into that situation when making that "do-or-die" all-in move, we weren't going to win the tournament anyway.
good play...
I'd like to get as many responses as possible on attacking the blinds from middle/late position, especially with low-middle pairs (22-TT), and possibly other questionable hands (KTo, A9 for example). I'd like to hear thoughts about various times in the tourney (re-buy period to final table), as well as chip position (from shortstacked to chip leader). The only situation that's constant is that the hand has been folded all the way around to you with one of these hands and you're in mid-position to the button.
The concept of "attacking the blinds" with low pairs in a tournament against good players reminds me of the time someone suggested they could "take control" of a 7-stud hand with a similar piece of cheese. It aint gonna happen. Many players will play back at you if you indiscriminately raise on the button.
The interesting thing about 2-2 is that it may often be the best hand on the button, but it is only minutely better than any random hand. Obviously the smaller the pair, the more chances that you are in a coin flip situation with any two random cards your opponents may hold. In a limit hold-em tournament, many players routinely defend their blinds with anything remotely reasonable (and are clearly correct to do so against 2-2). In a NL tourney, you have many other strategies available to pressure the blinds with.
Conversely, a hand such as T-T on the button is likely to be not a steal, but in fact the best hand. Ditto for hands such as K-J or A-9. Of course in a limit game, a raise gives the big blind money odds of 3 1/2 to 1, so you are still going to get called a lot, simply because your opponents will be no worse than 2-1 against (assuming the hand goes all the way) and often in better shape than that.
Thus, I think it best that a play at the blinds should be better thought out than as just an "attack". Clearly, if an opponent perceives an attack, then the better play is a counter ploy (notice that an occasional call from a "strength" position makes the early position players wonder more than they would had you raised, while still retaining bluffing rights and position for later).
Much of what I've said above relates to stages of the tourney where you have some play for your money. When the blinds are extremely high, often a raise is simply unavoidable. Even there, I'd rather have a hand with big cards in it than a small pair. What are you going to do with 2-2 if you get called and get played with on the flop?
NL HE tournament - blinds at 200/400 0 less than 40 of the 120 players left - paying 10 and 1st just over $4k.
I have T$2250. to set this up One off 3 off button I mucked JJ with no raise and regretted it as soon as they hit the muck - don't know why I didn't play it. Now UTG I get KcQc and call. Guy on my left sort of a solid player makes it $1000 - now I want to see a flop with this guy cuz I have a good read on him. flop Jc9h6d - I check (a mistake) he checks too. Ac turn I have nut flush draw and gut shot straight with a T. I push in he calls. Turn a big brick. He shown AK which I knew he had.
I am kicking myself all the way home for playing the hand in the 1st place - I routinally muck KQ and certainly don't play it for a raise in this sort of game.
I should be arrested for impersonating a poker player.
This is the worst I have ppayed a hand in ages.
4 big mistakes each one worse than the last. Playing the KQ in the 1st place, calling the 1000, since I was there I should have pushed all in (this guy is able to let the AK go here) on the flop and going in with the A up on the turn.
I'm just sick.
You've told us why this happened. There's a maniac inside you trying to get out.
Hey, if you didn't make any mistakes, we'd think you weren't human. BTW, my chances of meeting you and some other 2+2ers at the WSOP just went way up. I finally did my taxes, and I am unexpectedly getting a massive refund. Now, I only need to win a couple big ones to justify the trip.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Rounder;
Tossing the JJ is a bit of a surprise, though I know how it goes sometimes when you see a long run of big cards flopping.
The KQc is a bit of a sucker hand in NL tourney's I think. You see so many of these kind lose against Ax in heads up situations. You also see a lot of suicides performed on draws!
Can you tell me something about the WSOP? Me and a buddy are thinking of coming down to play and watch. When does the actual tourney start? What are the terms (buyins etc.) of the satelite games? Can you still get a room down there for under a $150 bucks a night?
Thanks, and good luck.
Nick
Check out www.binions.com for the full schedule. Single tabel satellites cost 1/10 of the main event, or 150 through 1000. There are also regular multiple table super satelllites for (i think) $140, but they have rebuys and can get expensive.
I just booked a room at the Lady Luck, across from the shoe. Rate varies by the day of the week from $35 to $99 on Fri., Sat., and Sun.
Good Luck.
if i don't see you before the wsop, here's wishing you luck. know em dead. maybe i'll see you on espn2, if they ever start playing it again.
scott
You'll not see me on espn2 unless they are telvising the 2k pot limit and no limit events. I can't make the Cnampionship due to a scheduling conflict at work. See you at the Big Apple Classic and thanks for the well wishes.
$60 n weekends - satellites are $160 playing for a $1500 the single satellites up later and supers are $220 with rebuys.
The schedule shows satellites only on the first day (April 20) -- is that it? No more satellites after that? Thanks, Kate
Kate they run the whole time the WSOP is going on.
Thanks, Rounder. That's what I hoped. There's some chance I'll make it out there.
Rounder,
From what I've read (and learned--thanks!) in your other posts, this is completely at odds with your usual style. Most of the time, you either flop something or you're gone. Since you open this post by refering to the mucked JJ, could this have influenced your play?
Regards,
John
I think it did - and it shouldn't have - the JJ would have won but I was not on tilt or anything when I am playing well which I was lastnight (until the stupid KQ) I often muck medium pairs UTG or near in an aggressive table as I can't take a big raise with them.
I just feel miserable about that last hand. I should have just passed on it I had plenty of chips and liked my chances at this table.
just plain blew it. Big time.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Steve it was part of the mistake.
I don't know what come over me but the JJ were in the muck before I knew it.
The blinds are going to eat you alive. Those Jacks will beat anyones AK or Ace-rag. You need chips. The KQ was a terrible hand to play after it had been raised. Shame on you. But, you knew what you did wrong. I shouldn't have to say anything.
I blew it big time.
And I know it.
Scenario: WSOP final event. You're down to the last 3 tables with 215,000 in chips, tables are full, antes are $400, blinds of $800 and $1600.
Dealt 6-6 in mid-position, limp in with no reraise. Flop comes K-10-6 rainbow. Bet $12k, called only by a late position player, apparently on a draw or with a big pair (two pair?). The turn comes the 3 of hearts. The late position player has over $300,000 in chips. How much do you bet on the turn?
100K to all of it.
He now could have a big draw and you want to win it right there if he has calls you are still a big fav.
A pot size bet of 30K on the turn if you believe that you have him beat, and you want him to call or raise you. If he has a pair he may call you down for just 30K.
If you bet 30, your stack and the pot are laying him 6.7-1 to call. If he's got a straight draw, this is going to look awfully tempting, especially when he might think he's got 11 outs and there might be 12 cards that might keep you from calling his all-in bet on the end.
I'd bet 75 here and be happy with the 30 in the pot.
At this level and at this stage of this tournament - pot odds are BULL. If you call you beter "have" it or fold. That is why you have to close him out here and not let him draw out on you.
Rounder,
As soon as you hear the words "Pot Odds" it triggers you off and I sometimes wonder if you even read the rest of the post. Chris is talking about the odds being offered to your opponent. He doesn't want to give the opponent a cheap draw, just the same as you. If your opponent is on a draw, which seems unlikely as several posters have said.
Andy.
Andy I have no problem with Pot Odds they are am important (but not the only) part of playing a hand.
What I object to is using them to justify a bad play.
I don't think a thornament player in this situation would put a penny in the pot here whe he was on a draw.
After the flop.
This pot odds discussion seems to assume youre committed to calling on the river.If you know your opponent wont bet the river if he misses theres not much point in calling if he does bet.Conversely if hell bet if he misses the situation has changed somewhat.This being day three and two big stacks being involved might provide a clue or two.Also if you have a tight image a bet on the turn will make your opponent pass all the possible holdings where he is drawing stone dead whereas a check may convince him that he either has the best hand or can make you lay down a hand slightly better than his.
It depends who I'm playing with. The reason why I said a pot size bet, is I don't want to give away the stength of my hand. I've experienced a similar situation. There was 300 in the pot, we're heads-up, and I'm first to act, I missed the flop, but there were two hearts on the board. I checked. My opponent, who usually bet the pot, but this time he bet only 200. Giving me correct odds to draw to a flush. My point is that by not betting a large amount, you do not give away the strength of the hand and you make your opponent guess if you just have a pair, two pair, or a set. So, if you're opponent thinks you are bluffing, he may just call you down with a pair.
You want to get some action with your bet. I think somewhere around $20000.
I have limited no limit experience, but I would think that betting the pot would make the most sense. Although he's going to call you with anykind of big draw, he isn't getting that good of odds on his money (2:1, if my math is right), and with only one card to go he has to have a monster draw. Anything bigger might induce him to laydown a hand that he can't win with, like top pair maybe.
Isolating a hand that occurs on the third day of a four day tournament makes this a guess.Its not a normal situation with a right and wrong way of doing it .Having some idea of what your opponents priorities are and what he thinks yours are becomes the most important ingredient at this stage.Only when youve worked this out and translated it into what your opponent will do now and on the river can you make a decision here thats rational rather than panic driven.
Good NL players in the 3rd day of a 4 day tournament don't risk lots chips on a "Big Draw" - I want this guy out of the hand so I bet eneough to make it a hard call for him to draw out a winner on me. If he is weak and calls for the draw I make a lot of money if he is weak and lucky I may be in trouble.
I rest my case.
..why would he have limped in pre-flop with a hand like QJ suited that at best can hope to pick up a "monster draw on the turn", esp. headsup against the second biggest stack at the table?
Chico,
I think this is limit thinking. This is not a time to get cute. Win it right there and move on.
You don't have the nuts here - hell this guy might be slo-playing 3Ks - which I doubt but we both know stranger things have happened in NL HE.
..a set of tens), so what happens if you bet 75K and he sets you all in for another 125? Put him on slowplayed As or AK and cry call? You said yourself this isn't the time to get cute.
Remember, this was an unraised pot btwn two big stacks, far away from the "real money".
Call me paranoid, but I am real leery of three tens here. If this player is solid-aggressive, he probably would have raised preflop with AK or KK, and folded KT. He may have QJs, AJs, or AQ and be hoping to bust you if he hits a straight or gutshot since you have a lot of chips. His position and your relative stack sizes make it difficult to rule anything out.
That being said, I'm not going to dog it now, so I bet about 1.5-2x the pot (50k?) and don't really mind if he folds. I'd hate to get broke in an unraised pot with bottom set.
Nobody wants to go broke in an unraised pot with bottom set, yet everyone wants to make that set as cheaply as possible. Isn't this the crux of the issue and isn't there a dichotomy between those two goals? Would it not be better to make that small raise before the flop, still staying within a positive range, yet enough to build the pot a little?
I'm not saying that limping before the flop was a mistake. I would like to see the flop cheaply with 66, as well. The fact that the pot was unraised just makes it more difficult to put the late position player on a hand and makes the AK (the only legitimate hand that will pay you off) less likely.
I just gotta ask myself "What does he have and what does he think I have that he would call that big bet on the flop with no money in the pot?"
A draw doesn't seem very likely if he is a strong NL player. He either thinks I don't have a King, thinks I'll pay him off big time if he hits a straight, or already has me beat. A less likely (although more desirable) premise is that he is slow playing KT.
Alas, it all boils down to "Know thy player" and Know what they player thinks of you.
..is why you'd muck the 6s pre-flop in this situation, now that I think about it some more.
Same situation only you made it $7500 to go, big stack behind you *CALLS*, everyone else folds. Same flop, you bet 25K, big boy *CALLS*. Same turn, now what? Raising pre-flop makes the check-fold on the turn easier, it just costs you 2.5 times as much.
Contrast this situation with the famous Bechtel-Bonetti 666 v. KKA from the 1993 WSOP. Bechtel had position, the chip lead, and it was three-handed.
Great question BTW. And Padraig and Michael7 are right, of course. Knowing the player is crucial.
..I haven't read any of the other responses yet.
Final 27, I've got an above average stack, probably one of the five biggest. I limp in the 5 seat with black 6s, 8 seat limps, SB folds, BB checks. $8800 in the pot. Flop Ks-10c-6d. BB checks, I bet 12K, 8 seat calls, BB folds. (Wanted to make sure I understood you correctly).
Turn 3h. 8 seat has over 300K, I've got about 201K, 32.8K pot. First of all, this just smells like a lovely hand to go broke on! What could he have to just *CALL* on the flop (and before the flop, for that matter)? You're two of the biggest stacks and the pot was unraised pre-flop. According to your scenario, it's 2-3 hours into day three. Everybody's in the money. I can't put him on some crap like KT, and he'd of raised w/ AK, Qs & Js pre-flop. I don't think he'd've gotten cute with slowplaying As or Ks at this point, either, unless you know he's that type of player. He'd've made it 50K on the flop with KQ.
I'll put myself in his shoes. "Everybody's folded to me but one of the bigger stacks. What could he have to just limp in the 5 seat? Small pair, A-rag suited, KQ, KJ. What's a hand I can play (slowly), taking advantage of my position and stack size?"
I think this eliminates QJ; he'd've raised on the flop, figuring you for KJ. I think he'd've also raised here, had he slowplayed As, just to see where he was at.
He's got a set of tens. Check and fold. Why go broke in an unraised pot with a big stack, with the big prize money still to come?
I stand by my original post. If you bet around $20000 you can still get away from the hand if you get played with and you deduce from this that you are beat. If you bet too much there is little chance of getting away from the hand. If you have the best hand you want to get some action.
A lot of players - good pleyers - would see an unraised flop here with KQ some with KT or JT I'v seen it at high levels - I think they'd raise with KK TT - if I think I'm 75% right to be on the best hand here I want to shut him off NOW.
If he has the 3 T's well I'm screwed but that is the only hand I can put him on that can beat me and I can see him playing this hand this way with any number of hands including other pairs.
The original post presupposes you have 215000 in chips on day three.If you want to shut out NOW a guy who may be drawing dead how would one get the chips in the first place.
I'm just not in a mood to let him draw for free or cheaply here. So I'm beting the turn big eneough for him to decide of he wanto so gamble with this many chips.
How many sets do you think youre going to flop in this tournament?The opposition at this stage is unlikely to be braindead.If the object of the exercise is to win the event a little more subtlety is probably required.Of course its possible that there may be one or two players remaining who are going to donate chips to you but they are more likely to have 30000 rather than 300000 at this stage.A glance at the wall in Binions will confirm that this tournament is usually won by a guy who tries to win rather than survive and hope everybody else gets abductrd by martians or gets bored and goes home or something.I understand there is a temptation to pick this pot up here and now but this only makes sense if youre playing aggressively and winning so many small pots without showing a hand that it would not make sense to play a big pot even with way the best of it.However if your plan is to play tight youre going to have to make your big hands pay or youll be anted off in fifteenth place waiting for the next set.You cant have it both ways.
I have gone many tournaments with out flopping a set and hell I've won tournaments without ever having a hole pair.
I know this an isolated hand but important to me as I have a strategy that includes not letting players draw out on me for free or cheaply. I see your point and respect it I just think I may handle this situation a bit differently.
Cheers,
Won a spot in the $3000 limit Hold-em at Binions on May 3rd. First time playing in a WSOP event. Any advice?
Tight tight tight.
Relax and play your normal game.Boris Beckers definition of what sets a champion apart is the ability to play like it means nothing when it means everything.Hes probably right.Dont let the occasion or the opposition intimidate you .Remember youve won your way into this event and so have just as much right to be there as the guy whos talking a great game beside you.Enjoy yourself and good luck.
dark glasses, head phones, a fan, and bulls balls!!!
good luck
Head phones and fans should be banned. :-)
OH Congrats.
Tight tight tight.
With respect to Rounder, I have always found that playing tight when you are not a tight player is a recipe for disaster. If you are naturally tight then fair enough, but I would advise you to play your normal game, with slight adaptations for the fact that you will be playing better players in a $3000 event. Good luck and as Padraig says, enjoy yourself.
Richard makes a good point here.Whereas tight may often be the way to play playing too tight against guys whove seen it all before will only work if you get an extraordinary sequence of good hands.Poker is a game of illusion so its better to mix it up a bit .Remember when youre trying to work out how a table full of guys you havent played before are playing youd better assume most of them are trying to work out where you fit in.If they cant be sure what your game plan is youre off to a good start.
I'd planned on playing my normal game - play the other players, figure out what stage we're in, etc.. But, ..........I figured somewhere along the line, maybe once or twice, I need to do something to try and completely throw off the opposition, stand on my head or something. Then revert to my normal game.
Another question, will there be any/many "maniacs" in this tournament or will there be some very tough players who look like maniacs to the untrained eye?
"will there be some very tough players who look like maniacs to the untrained eye?"
Yes.
Will there be maniacs.Lots.Good players .Lots.Geniuses.A few.With a little luck youll avoid the maniacs and geniuses and get to play with a few guys from the same planet.Its easier on the nerves and the stack.
There will be some maniacs, as in every tourney. The trick is seperating those from the tough players who seem like maniacs, who will number quite high in a high buy-in event.
In the below post, I brought up the following scenario and asked for opinions. After seeing all the responses, I'm curious what everyone would do on the river.
Scenario: WSOP final event. You're down to the last 3 tables with 215,000 in chips, tables are full, antes are $400, blinds of $800 and $1600.
Dealt 6-6 in mid-position, limp in with no reraise. Flop comes K-10-6 rainbow. Bet $12k, called only by a late position player, apparently on a draw or with a big pair (two pair?). The turn comes the 3 of hearts. The late position player has over $300,000 in chips. How much do you bet on the turn?
(For the sake of making this a neutral question, let's assume this is the first hand of the 3rd day.)
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but here's my summary of what everyone who posted would do.
Rounder would bet anywhere from $100k to all-in, just to get this over with and take what's out there. He doesn't want anyone drawing out on him.
Chico and Lil Feller would bet $20k and Mah would bet $30k, trying to induce a call or raise. Chris disagrees and would bet $75k, because $30k or lower would offer his opponent pot odds to hit his possible draw.
Michael7 would bet $50 because he doesn't mind if the opponent folds and because he's concerned about his opponent having a possible set of 10s(he doesn't want to get broke in an unraised pot). Along those same lines, BillM isolates the opponent to a set of 10s and would check-fold to a bet.
Padraig would consider what his opponents priorities are, consider that he's up against another big stack, and in the end, possibly would check, not wanting to scare the opponent off of a hand where he might be "stone-dead", and/or to induce a bluff on the end.
Soooo ... to all those who bet, let's assume your bet is called (no raise) -- what do you do on the river when the 8 of clubs arrives?
For Padraig, what would you do on the river if you are check-check on the turn?
For Bill, would you again check on the river if your opponent check-checks the turn?
If Bob Ciaffone is lurking, I'd love to hear his input on this issue also.
Thanks to everyone who posted, it was great food for thought.
I would bet T60000. I believe I want a call here. I am assuming the action on the turn went bet-call. To my way of thinking a set of KK's is remote as it is bad poker. A set of TT's is possible. If called on the turn I think the most likely hand would be KQ or KT. You may get a play from the KT. On second thought I may bet T50000.
Though I was not one of the original responders, I'll have a go at this. First of all I would bet $25 to $30k on the turn. This would mean that, assuming I am called, there is $80 to $90k in the pot when the river comes. The eight of clubs has almost certainly not helped my opponent. This means that whoever had the best hand on the flop still has the best hand. The opponent called in late position, indicating he probably does not hold a big pair such as KK. He called only on the flop, but it was a large amount in relation to the pot size so he holds some kind of hand. He may have held QJ, but if this is so he would have folded to the $30k bet on the turn. It is obvious after the turn that he had a hand on the flop. His possible hands IMHO are TT, KT, and AK. TT is possible-he may well have just limped pre-flop with this hand hoping to flop a set and break someone. KT is a marginal call, but in late position for the BB, it is possible. Holding AK I think he would probably have raised pre-flop to get the blinds out of the way. I would bet another $40k on the river. If he raises I would fold and keep $140k. In the unlikely event he limped with aces he will pay me off. If he has KT he will pay me off, if he raises he knows he will only be called if he is beat. If he has AK he may pass or he may call but he will not try a raise with so much in the pot and the risk that I have a hand. TT is the only hand he will raise with, and in that case I would throw the hand away.
Bet 40000.HE can afford to pay me now if he has a king knowing he cant lose any more than this.Pass if he raises.If hes bluffing or thinks KT is a monster good luck to him.All my own fault for limping rather than raising preflop.If Im lucky enough to have this many chips at this stage im going to try to win this pot with two sixes rather than wait for a third one and confuse myself wondering what the hell im going to do now.It also is going to considerably lower the chances of getting caught set over set here.Rather than wondering what to do here Id like to be looking at two new cards.Time is money.
If I bet the $100K and he called it - I put him on KT and I push in the rest of my chips.
If I bet all in on the flop and he called it we wait for the river.
BTY is this a real hand or are in La La land.
If he has TT you're screwed. It's better to find out if you are beat before all your chips are in the centre. You've worked for two days and now you want to risk it all because you put him on KT? If you are right then you take a commanding chip lead. If you are wrong you get something like $15000. Far better to bet the $40k and pass if he raises. If he raises with KT then you'll just have to throw away the best hand. But as I said in my post, raising with KT is a dumb play because he has to know that you won't call unless you have him beat. I'd say its about 60:40 he has the KT. If he is a good player-which I presume he is to get this far-then he may pass the KT to an all-in raise when he thinks about the legitimate hands you could have and make such a move, and realises he can beat none of them.
It's not exactly "la-la land", but loosely based on some situations from WSOP finals over the years. Nonetheless, I think it's a most instructive situation for those of us who would like to get past the 2nd and 3rd days.
Padraig, I'd certainly like to pick up a lot of 6K uncontested pots at this stage, but do you think middle position, 6s, and this particular stage of the tourney is right for this play?
Let's say you make it 10K to go and Mr. 300K calls, as in the original post. Same flop. Now, do you bet 40K or go for an all-in check raise? I have to say that I'd do the later and pray he has QQ, JJ, KQ, KJ or AT.
If he checks behind, same turn, I bet the 40-50K, pass if he raises. If he calls, same river, I bet the same amount again, and cry call if he raises.
Boy, I sure play this different based on if I raised pre-flop, don't I? How much should whether or not there's been a pre-flop raise affect post-flop play at the WSOP? Is it different dependent on what stage it is?
At this stage stacks and situations are more important than the value of your hand.
Since, I bet 12K on the flop and 30K on the turn. My opponent may be just calling me down with a pair or two pair. That depends on what I thought of my opponent. I don't think he would have called both bets with a 7-9. If he had a set of Kings or Tens he would have bet already, unless I have seen him take a chance and slow play, but that's risky. On the end, I would check it too him and let him bluff at it. Futhermore, you have to think of what my opponent thought I had. Since, my bets were not too much to call he may just put me on a pair and just call me down.
I check-call. I can't conceive that he has a hand that: A - I can beat, & B - He checked on the turn, **AND** C - That he will just *CALL* 40K with on the river. He absolutely would've had to have bet if he had KT when checked to on the turn.
Padraig is, of course, the only person on the board (except for Bob Ciaffone), who has come close to winning the WSOP, but I have to think that checking the turn then betting 40K on the river screams "Please don't raise.." Padraig is right about how the 6s should've raised pre-flop to avoid all this. I still stand by my revised answer that *in this particular, specific situation*, a pre-flop fold is the right play.
Checking the river might get him to bet AT or QJ, but I doubt he'd call 40K with either.
I'd like to start by saying that I enjoy being remembered :) Now to my humble and inexperienced opinion. I think that if your going to play this hand you have to raise pre-flop. If I limp in, and a player with more chips limps in behind me I'm thinking one of two things...either he has a monster or he's looking to gamble. Raising pre-flop help you define the nature of his hand. If he calls, thats ok, he's probaly got face cards or a medium strength Ax. If he reraises, I fold. After flopping the set, assuming that I limped in pre flop...I would be very concernced that KK trapped me on purpose preflop or that TT did it on accident, putting me on a big hand since I "just limped in". I think in that situation I would overbet the pot, maybe 50k, to give him a chance to fold. If he CALLS I'm in trouble...I would rather he raise or fold here. If he raises I'm thinking K-10, or maybe KJ, either way, I have the best hand. A call to me indicated I'm stuck set over set and am going to get nuked on the turn.
I'm feeling good about my hand but am delighted to take down the pot as it presently stands. Right now my priority is keeping his stack out of it. Although the most likely way I can see it going in is on some kind of bluff, I really don't want to go broke here and am still barely capable of folding to a gigantic bet. Checking is too risky for my purposes, so I'd bet whatever amount would induce him to call or fold, probably around $40-50.
Hello, tonight I will be playing in a 7 stud tourney. Im a huge holdem player but have never really played 7CS. Any Tips that can be of huge help on short notice?
Thanks, Smaegol
Get your entry fee back and find a hold'em game. Seriously? Most tournament concepts are the same in stud as in hold'em-such as the importance of stack size, survival, when to gamble, when to back off etc. Play solid and gradually let your stack build. Play drawing hands a little stronger since they offer you the best opportunity to build a large stack. When you get that large stack reverse that strategy and look to play hands such as big pairs as strong as possible to get drawing hands out. Exactly how much stud experience do you have? BTW I assume you are playing limit stud. In the UK stud tourneys are played PL so maybe my suggestions are invalid. What does everyone else think?
In holdem, it's high cards. I stud it is live cards. Avoid confrontations unless you are strong. Steal more antes when position is good and game is passive. Play more 3 flushes when you have an A,K and 3-4 players in (again position). Do not fall in love with your hand (i.e. bare aces to the river) against 2-3 players with good boards. Advice for lmit stud only
5 handed, I'm the shortest stack with t5000. Blinds are 1k-2k. I'm UTG with Q2d. Should I raise all in? I folded. I folded 72s in the big blind to a button raise. All fold to me in the small blind with 85o. I throw the rest of my chips in and get called by T3o. Is my small blind play correct?
Pos 1: Me Pos 2: Weak player who calls too much, t8-10k. Pos 3: Aggressive but weak woman, ~t20k. Pos 4: Decent player, ~t20k. Pos 5: Decent player, ~t20k.
1st: 930 2nd: 580 3rd: 400 4th: 230 5th: 140
First you need to decide if you would rather move up the pay scale or try for first place. 4th place does not pay much more than fifth. At this point I would have stuck it all-in on a hand before I had the big blind to give myself a chance. I would do this for a few reasons. For example, if I'm under the gun, the button calls, and the blinds fold. You will make an extra 3K from the blinds giving you a chance to win the real prize.
Q-2d is a weak hand to move all-in with, but getting the right to fire first has a definite advantage when short-handed. Given your chip situation, that's where I'd have been inclined to move it all-in, despite the hand.
If you raise UTG with Q2, what is the others likely play? If typical, they will all fold to the big blind unless they have a very good hand. Now, the real question, is there much chance that the big blind will fold? Your raise is 3K more, which is more than you could have raised in a limit tourney, and people will fold their big blind in those, even when the raiser doesn't have much left. If you think that there is some chance that he will fold, then raise with the Q2. While this is actually a slightly below average hand (i.e., it's pot equity is less than 50% against 2 random cards), this is made up for by the 1K small blind, and more than made up for if the big blind will fold some of the time.
Also, once you were in the big blind for 2K, I would have called the button raise, even with 72o. You're getting 8:3 on your call, and folding here does not give you a huge shot at moving up even 1 more spot (because the next shortest stack can just fold and let you face the blinds again). If folding here gave you a good shot at moving up 2 or more positions, then it might be worthwhile. Here, I'd gamble with any hand and try to get to 11K, which would give you a legitimate shot at winning it all, rather than fold my blinds and be down to 2K.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
First of all, finishing 3rd at the WSOP final event is an incredible acheivement, so I'm hardly criticizing your play here.
In Poker Digest's issue on the WSOP, the writer strongly implied that you were intimidated by the two big stacks when it got down to three-handed, and that there were three hands in particular against Goehring that you could've won with a bet, but you only chopped one and lost the other two when you checked.
Any truth to that? Were you hoping that Goehring being an amateur and Furlong ~unorthodox~, might get them all-in against each other and letting you slip into 2nd (at least), as happened in '87 and '93? Were you shocked by Huck's move-in/bust out on Furlong? Do you feel that Seidel or yourself missed any chances to bust Goehring when he was short-stacked? Anything in particular you'd do differently if you could?
Thanks in advance for any answers you'd like to give to these questions. Hope to see you down there next month.
Ill answer as honestly as I can.If I could do anything differently id have payed my own entry fee rather than lending it to someone who wanted to stick me in.No I dont think we could have assisted Goehring any more in his attempts at knocking himself out of the tournament.No I wasnt in the least surprised at Seeds move.I was the least surprised guy in the universe when Noel called.I being Irish knew that Noels criteria were not in line with poker as played in books and bars.A friend if mine a few years ago won a sizeable sidebet on the rail betting that Noel had absolutely nothing when it seemed he logically could only have the nuts.No I wasnt intimidated by the big stacks because I had a big stack myself.I was aware that as the professional I was supposed to win herebut these were not the two guys I really wanted to be playing against .I thought the other two were itching to clash .I wasnt too worried about having to play headsup with the smallest stack.Ive been in worse spots.Unfortunately i didnt have the read on Alan that the journalist had but then again neither did Eric.The journalist never asked me what was going on so i wasnt surprised that he didnt know.The difference is I dont pretend to know how to be a journalist.When all is said and done the buzz of finishing third outweighs the disappointment of losing.Believe me.Incidentally ciaffones tale of his exploits in this event is a marvellous read .Good luck in Vegas.
I forgot to give you an idea of what was happening.I raise with 54.Alan calls.Flop is J84he checks.I bet.HE calls.OHSHIT.Being human I think T9 is the only hand I can beat here.Maybe QT or Q9.Turn is a queen.lovely.check.check.River blank.Check.Check.I almost fall out of my chair when he shows 74 and they give me half the pot.Do YOU want to bet.WITH YOUR MONEY.While youre thinking about it bear in mind that what this guy does not lack is guts.He effectively destroyed Erics chances the evening before by making unorthodox out of position calls and check calling with middle pair no kicker and winning the pots.Possibly our man from the POKERDIGEST would be so kind as to explain to MR SEIDEL how he should have played or maybe this guy only lectures europeans.
Thanks for the information on Alan. I'll make sure I've got hand so when I bet he can call. Did he always just check it to you, or did he actually bet a hand?
He checked and called with a lot of hands other guys would have either bet or checked and passed if there was a bet.It seemed that it wasnt just me he selected for this move.Ask Seidel.If I had to guess Id say he had much more limit experience than no limit.Seidel called him with ace high on the river.I called him with a pair of twos on the river and won.He bet 400000 on a A8X all diamonds flop after I had reraised preflop with A5.I have absolutely no idea what he had except that he probably didnt have middle pair or bottom pair.He certainly had the balls to be bluffing but he could have been bluffing and been in reasonable shape against my hand.Good luck to him if he was.
By the way, there's an interesting story that Doyle Brunson tells in his book Super/System. It's about a weak player that calls down everyone that tries to bluff him and he busts alot of good players at the WSOP. If you have not read it, I think you will find it entertaining.
Interesting comments thanks for the insight - I have seen this tournament on tape several times and I agree that Noel was the last one I'd want to have at the 3 handed table players like this drive me nuts.
I am sure Seed would like to have that all in bet (bluff) with J8 (I think) back Noels call with A3 was outragious but he seemed to be "going after" Seed here.
Actually, I am more interested in the raise $60K with AK & call of Eric's all in reraise with AQ. Basically because I play it a bit differently here - I make a bigger bet say $150K about 1/2 of Eric's stack just looking for the antis and blinds.
Say Eric just called you and the Q fell now you are locked out of his sure all in - you couldn't call it with a missed flop and there goes a nice pot. I don't know if Eric calls on a bigger bet but it is my play here. Of course I haven't been at any WSOP final table so what do I know.
I wish you success in this years WSOP I'm gonna give it a try and If I can win a seat I'll be there.
Rounder the reason I made it 60000 was that I was prepared to play a pot for all of Seidels chips but not for all of my chips if Furlong wants to play a big pot.Eric has to do something . noel doesnt. Good luck.Everythings possible.
Re the Seed confrontation with Furlong it is easier to understand what happened if you had seen the last few hours messing about the previous day.Seidel me Seed and Furlong the four biggest stacks were drawn 1234 at the final table of nine .Disaster for Eric.I wasnt delighted.Great news for Furlong.This was where the thing was won and lost.As well as getting the worst of the draw Seidel was also tortured by goehring.Went unluckily from great to weak position.The remaining three of us got involved in an orgy of stealing.Seed called my raises a couple of time only for Furlong to reraise and take it.Seed got damaged as a result and Furlong improved dramatically.It was obviously going to be a battle of wills the next day as at least three guys were going to try to steal this tournament before somebody else did.I raised the first pot the next day .seed reraised I passed.Furlong got the message.He probably wanted Seed out of there and took the view that his nothing was as good as Seeds nothing.
..far more educational than any theoretical speculation (a point I made in an earlier post, but never mind). Anything else you'd like to add would be most welcome.
Thanks for posting. Boy, can you imagine, you, me, Rounder, FossilMan, Vince, and some wild nutcase millionaire at the final table this year? Be a lot of fun, although it probably would not last very long...
I think Padraig would win but he'd have to get past my set 1st.
:-)
Where can I find Ciaffone's story?
It's in his "Improve Your Poker" book, and it is very good. This book is well worth buying if you don't have it. Thanks to Padraig as well for his very interesting post. One day ...
Andy.
Padraig. I recently watched the Discovery Channel documentary and am curious about one thing-the hand you went out on (if you don't mind talking about it). You raised pre-flop, Furlong called. Why move in on the flop? Please understand this is not a snide criticism, I am genuinely curious. What did you put him on? Why bet all of your chips? Assuming you were back in that situation (but did not know Furlong's hand) would you do the same again? If this hits a nerve then of course I will understand your not answering. From a person who can only dream about $489,125, Richard.
Ive raised.hes called.He didnt have a pair so he cant have a set.He didnt have AK AQ .Hes probably got AX KJ something like that.If I check hell bet .If I bet say 200000 hes quite likely to raise me and I have to pass and try to win this off 400000 and win is what Im trying to do.If I gamble his two cards arent diamonds i can go all in and we can go on to the next hand .They were so they played the next hand without me.Against another player Ill do it differently but I was playing the hand the way I thought I should play it in the situation.I can live with it.SO yes Id do it again.Probably.
Bay101 Shooting Star No-Limit Hold'em
MJ
I would like to sign up for the target sat. on sat the 29th but don't know who to tell about it.
It any of you guys want some easy money in the satellite let me know how to sign up.
Would welcome commentary on the following NLH hand. By way of background, I am trying to get more value out of flopping a set. I tend to overbet the pot whenever there is any possible draw on the flop (which, of course, is almost always) and end up winning just the preflop bets.
It is the start of a T10,000 event with 1 hour rounds. Blinds 25-50, everyone at the table is a stranger, and everyone has essentially T10,000.
I pick up 99 in the BB. Late middle position makes it 300. I call. It is heads up. Flop comes 9d,7d,3s. I check, he bets 300. I call, knowing I'll have a problem if a diamond comes. Turn is Jh. I bet 900, he calls. In the unlikely event he had 10,8 he had to reraise me since he doesn't know I'm not on diamonds.
River is 10d--perhaps the worst possible card. He could have made the flush or "accidentally" made the straight with 88, or 10,9 or something. Or maybe not. He can't be very comfortable either unless he has the Ad.
I bet 500 to see his reaction. He raises 2,500. What should I have done here? How about the earlier betting. I know I could have shut him out on 4th, but wanted to try for a bigger pot.
Actual outcome to follow.
Look you guys can't be cheking sets with flush draws and straight draws out there - your call with 99 is wrong you should have raised now you have some idea what you are up against. Your chaek of the flop compounded the mistake now. You are screwed now only because you didn't play aggressivally from the getgo.
Gotts fold the set - he could have anything from a flush to a pair of Q's - I'd put him on a big pair at this point. His raise of $300 reaks of call my premium hand - please.
You reraise from BB with 99 preflop in tourneys?
I've never played in one and I'm rather new. I'd love to hear some logic behind this.
I understnad pumping the flop though. I don't like slowplaying much.
If this guy is raising me with a drawing hand AKs etc he has to make a decision weather to call my reraise or fold it there. He could also reraise me and I fold maybe or call depends how much - there is so much depending on situational events on this - if nothing else I am on record as a guy who is not letting his blinds go to easily. A good thing to establish early in the tourney.
A lot of players fold on the reraise here but usually just call.
Now I smash the flop I want it over here. A guy can go bust or double up in this sort of situation wouldn't it be nice to have $20K this early in the tourney. I have done both. Doubling up is much nicer.
So you got 10k and he makes it 300 and it comes to you for a reraise? What would you reraise... if you were going to? Another 300 or more? If he is on A/big I'm guessing you'd like to put him in for about 1000 (10% of his stack), but if he is on a bigger pair you are in trouble?
Also... you flop the set... instantly push your 10k into the pot?
No I am not going broke here I don't go in without the nuts. I reraise him $300 to $600.
Say he calls I bet $2000 - or so - now he has to make the decision BIG - Actually I want him on an over pair or under set I am a huge fav. He is now the one in a position to make a mistake. I hope he does.
No I am not going broke here I don't go in without the nuts. I reraise him $300 to $600.
Say he calls I bet $2000 or so on the set - now he has to make the decision BIG - Actually I want him on an over pair or under set I am a huge fav. He is now the one in a position to make a mistake. I hope he does.
Late middle I had him in late and OK he may be on a steal certainly not much needed to raise from the button or 2 off with all folding. Depending on the player I reraise here 50% of the time. Many players will raise with any bigish A here and I like my 99 against a A/big here.
I think you have to reraise here before the flop. In late middle position without any callers a raise to six times the blind would be telling me that this guy doesn't want to see the flop...he's on a steal. If you rereraise to say 600 or so you can define the nature of his hand. If he calls you know he isn't on a stone cold steal, but you probably have the best hand. I'd bet the pot on the flop or maybe (probably not) try for a check raise. The problem with check calling that flop is that there are too many GOOD draws against you, and because you didn't reraise preflop you have no clue where this guy is at. I value bet the flop (about the pot), and do the same on the turn.
I threw the hand away for his w,500 raise. He claimed to have been bluffing, and based on his subsequent play, he might well have been--remember, he was a stranger and this was one of the first hands.
I didn't raise preflop because with 10,000 in chips I was willing to risk 250 and try to hit the set I check the flop because he almost has to bet a 9-high flop, having been the raiser. At this point, I think I was too anxious to try and win more than 600 from him. I should have raised about 2000, hoped he had an overpair (or a set) and been willing to take the 600 if he didn't.
Regardless of the fact that I managed to trap myself after trapping him, it seemed wrong to call a pot-size raise with a board of J,T,9,7,3 and 3 diamonds.
xxxx
If hes bluffing why did he call the 900?
I can't imagine why he called the 900 if he was bluffing, which was why I folded to his raise. But his subsequent play was quite strange. I think he was very inexperienced, and just decided to try and get lucky with a 66 or something. When he didn't, he bluffed because he felt like it. Perhaps he decided on the flop to represent diamonds, in which case his call of the 900 was bad, but not horrendous, with 2,100 in the pot at that point. If I had it to do over, I'd make a much bigger bet on the flop or turn.
I like the way you played the hand.I dont think he would have decided to represent diamonds at an early stage if he was genuinely inexperienced.You were a little unlucky if he hit diamonds and very unlucky if you ran into a guy who panicked.There is a slight possibility that he read your final bet as exploratory and acted accordingly but this doesnt fit your description.Sometimes a guy can make three mistakes in one hand all of which contribute to his making the winning move for the wrong reasons.Thats why there still is a game.At least you didnt call him and run the risk of putting a damaging hole in your stack which could make you have to make potentially costly alterations to your game plan better luck next time.
I'm fixin' to play my first large scale( to me 30 people is large scale) NLHE tourney. I've got some experience playing short-handed (5-8 people) nl, but I'm not quite sure of the best strategy. Is it best to be very aggressive and double up or bust and then re-buy or is it better to tighten up and wait for AA, KK or QQ? I'm fairly comfortable once I get down to the last table, but the getting there is going to be the hard part for me.
Thanks, Patrick
NLHE is about a lot of things but one of them is position. If you are lucky you will ba at a table where you will be able to see flops for the bb more or less. I'd recommend playing prem hands early that's AA KK QQ AK - with a raise. then med pairs and coupled paints in mid and smaller pairs and coupled cards late. You'll be playing a lot of heads up in a NL tournament some of it short handed I just move the positions up a few when there are 6 of less at the table.
I play about 3-4 hold em tournements a week, mostly $25-60 entry with rebuys and tend to do pretty well, but this last Thursday I tried a very interesting, and strange tournament that I would like to get some advice on strategy.
The buy in is $20 with unlimited $10 rebuys during the first five 15 minute rounds. Blinds start at 5-10,10-20 betting limit and move up. After the 5th round the blinds are at 100-200 and there is an optional $20 add on. Starting chips are T250, rebuys get you T300, and the add on gets you T1000.
So here is the catch. When the play comes down to 10 handed all the players recieve an equal amount of real money $5 chips and play begins again at $10-$20 limit. It is live play BUT...only the player with the shortest stack can cash out until play becomes heads up. So in essence, one could play the first hand and lose and cash out then.
To give you an idea of how many rebuys and add-ons were taken with 36 players the pot was a little over $2,000 as each player at the final table started with $205.
I ended up finishing just short of the final table and I believe my tight play when it got down to two short tables may be the cause of my dissapointing finish. I think this may be a profitable venture in the future and would like to give it a shot next Thursday.
More than focusing on my play in the last couple of hands, what I would like to know is if anyone here has played in a similar tournament and what the optimum playing strategy is.
Thanks in advance for your replies,
Dony
They tried that same tournament here in Arizona - never did it again cuz it sucked. I played in one and got to 11th place - no one would do anything as they didn't care how many chips they had all they wanted to do is survive - I didn't - as it wurned out only one or two made any money - everyone else busted out in the live money game - stupid format. I just played my usual tournament game and almost got there.
That is what happened to me, I played my normal live game style, and won a few big pots at the beginning, but as the blinds went up I lost a couple key hands with AA and QQ and my stack became very short. I ended up forced into survival mode trying to sneak in with the shortest stack and lost all in the big blind and ended up getting 11th place and no shot at any real money. I was pissed because 3 players had huge stacks but wouldnt try to eliminate players, instead they mucked every hand without looking, satisfied with wasting our time and going to the final table. I may give it a shot again, but you may be right about it being a stupid tournament.
Why should the big stacks try to eliminate players? They gain nothing, and risk going from big stacks to medium stacks, at which point they are in jeopardy of not making the money. That's the problem with any tournament that pays the same prize to the last "n" survivors. Once your stack is big enough, you should just stop playing.
If there are enough players who don't know this, then you can play this tournament profitably by doing it yourself, when you get into the big stack position.
Also, since these rebuys are progressive, you should take them all, and always addon no matter how big your stack is at the time.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Ok, so I was playing in a freeroll tournament at my local club yesterday (You had to either play in 8 out of 10 in a series, or place in the top 3 in a tournament to qualify).
This was about midway through, and I haven't really caught any cards--I've stolen a few blinds, but am short stacked--I have about 5 small bets at this point, not including my big blind, which I have just posted.
So, here's the scene--I'm in the big blind, it's folded to a middle posistion player who I know is SUPER aggresive, and has somewhat "loose" raising requirements. He raises. It's then folded around to the small blind, who defends his blind (he seems to do that a lot.) I look down and see pocket 5's.
I think for a second, and realize that the pot is laying me about 5:1. Flopping a set is, as everyone knows, about 7.5:1. Thus, I don't really have odds for the call. On the other hand, if I hit the set, I think that the implied odds make it worth it. (In a ring game, I think I call for sure.)
Then I thought about the fact that this was not a heads-up pot, and my 5's were unlikely to win unimproved.
So, I folded. I think that if the small blind had folded, I call.
What do you guys think of my play?
Max
1st - in a tournament you have to forget the pot odds in the way you thought of them - if it were the case you would NEVER have the odds to call anything as most pots are 2 or 3 way.
You should have looked at the 5's as what they were.
You have to call here - you need ths chips and one sb or 20% of your remaining stack is not to much to pay for a chance to triple up.
I think is is a clear call or maybe reraise to possibily clear out the sb.
Since we don't know abou thim or the other stacks we don't have all the info to make the call.
The most important issue is your chips .I think at this point you have to make astand with pretty much any cards and hope you get lucky.I would raise all in.
I would to but I think it is limit.
If you 3-bet, what are the chances that the loose guy 4-bets, and if so, what are the chances that the sb will now fold?
If there is a strong chance of getting rid of the sb preflop, I would do it, and hope that I'm a slight favorite against the loose player's 2 overcards. If not, I call and see what happens here.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
What are the odds against you finding a better chance to double and possibly triple your stack before you run out of chips? Okay, so it's not much of a chance, but at least you've got a pair and a few chips left, whereas if you fold you've got next to no bluffing ability and enough chips for one single hand. It's lesser evil time. (Caveat: I don't play many tournaments, only low limit ring).
P.S. You definitely make that call in live action.
I like the call. Putting one's self all in and not leaving any ammo to fire out with on the flop is one of the biggest mistakes in tournaments. If someone has A-K and the flop comes 6 4 9 (f'rinstance) your bet on the flop could get him to lay down... whereas if you put yourself in he could spike an A or K on the turn or river and getchya. This is especially true in no-limit, there is a lot of power in being the first bettor into an unruly flop.
Nobody when you go all in or close to all in on the flop is going to lay down AK with that type of flop.
Bruce
Srry, I disagree. If you're calling bets w/AK when you don't hit a flop I want you in tournaments I'm playing in! AK is still a drawing hand and if you can't get away from it after a bad flop you are missing some key pieces in your play.
If the flop comes raggedy and your heads up and a player makes a small bet on the flop to move all in and you have a relatively large stack it is incorrect to throw your hand away. It probably still is correct to even call with a flop like 678.
Bruce
No - you could be looking at anything from a set to a straight to 2 pair. Point is you missed the flop and anything you do here is a bluff or a bad call. Time to throw it away.
Limit HE tournament - blinds are 15/30 30/60 betting.
I have black/red AK UTG. Call - thinking if I hit the flop I have it disguised and I see thie guy in th BB loading up - 5 call to him and he raises his bb I call rest call. Flop Ah Qh 5c - I hit my flop but flush draw out there. I bet called by one and ckeck-raised by BB I reraise call and bb folds. I consider the bb a good player who later said he folded KK - turn a brick I bet player 2 to my left calls - I have to put him on a flush draw from the flop. River Q - I see him loading up - I check he bets I call - he has a Q6o - what could this guy be thinking. 1st he calls 2 bets cold in mid position with a Q6o and then takes all kinds of heat with an under pair on the flop and sees my bet on the turn. Can you hear me screaming from here.
Any insight would be appreciated - I don't mind a bad beat it is part of the game but I am wondering what the hell this guy could have had in mind - never saw him before - I think he may be a stud player.
HELP
Your preflop action is the main issue. You should have raised UTG, Rounder. What are you being so passive about? Are you gunshy or something? AKs, it's o.k. to call preflop as it is a hand that plays well multiway but just calling with AKo is unforgivable. It's o.k. to limp with AA and KK utg preflop with the intention of reraising a late position raiser in order to drive out the callers to your left. Calling utg with AKo is a mortal sin even though you noticed the BB was loading up.
I disagree - AK is a drawing hand and in bad position I didn't want to get in a hand unless I had something to fight with.
Raising with AK 100% of the time is a mistake specially out of position.
AKo is a power hand shorthanded or heads up but weak multiway. And if you had raised with it, chances are you would have had position. If there's a caller to your left, sure you're in bad position but at least you know where you're at.
It's o.k. to raise AKo 100% of the time as long as you vary your play with hands like AKs,AQs,AJs(sometimes call, sometimes raise up front) or hands like AA,KK(sometimes raise up front, sometimes limp with the intention of reraising an aggressive late position raiser). That's because most people group AKo with these hands in their minds.
...since many people group AKo inside their heads along with AKs, AQs, AJs, AA, and KK, if you vary your play with these hands, they'd think you'd vary your play with AKo too. My point is, it WILL cost you if you risked playing(by just calling utg) AKo in a multiway pot but it WON'T cost you if you risked playing (by just calling utg) AKs, AQs, and AJs in a multiway pot, that's because these three hands play well in multiway pots too.
I don't value the suited much more than the off suit in this situation - suited don't mean much to me until after the flop.
You should raise with AKo utg unless you think that raising won't drive any players out. This is mainly because AKo can win unimproved against few players. Unlike no-limit hold 'em, you don't need to hit the flop to continue with this hand and it's not that uncommon to even win a showdown. I think you are confusing limit and no-limit play.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Do you ever limp under the gun with AK in no-limt?
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I am sure he has done it in limit too - slipping in with AK UTG with a small stack is not a bad play. Don't let anyone tell you differently.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Rounder,
You should have raised UTG but with a player that will play Q6o he might well have called the 2 bets cold had you raised anyway. There are players out there(God bless em) who will play any 2 cards and like the game of Hold'em because any 2 cards can win. Don't sweat it. I do agree with Badger when he says not to limp UTG. The only hand I would limp with is A or KK and hope it's a raising war by the time it gets back to me.
Austin B.
Matt,
You're trying to add chips to your stack, so you don't want other drawing hands in the pot to outdraw you. Futhermore, when you limp in with AK suited or not, you want to reraise any raisers. You primary reason for limping in is to isolate someone that raises behind you and get the drawing hands to fold.
Another benefit of doing this is a lot of players will put you on Aces or Kings, so if you get a flush flop to your suited AK, a lot of players will put you on the wrong hand and pay you off with a smaller flush.
So I say, limp in with the intention of reraising. When the blinds get higher they UTG raises are fine to knock out players.
If you're reraising with AKo and have then isolated the original raiser who then either calls or reraises your reraise, you're either beat by AA, KK, or AKs, or even money with a lower pocket pair or another AKo. Obviously, you have an overlay if you're even money (thanks to the callers' dead money) but you definitely have the worst of it, big time, against AA or KK.
Matt,
When you have AK there are less combinations out there for your opponents to have Aces or Kings. I never worry about someone having Aces or Kings. It just does not happen offen enough. I've encountered more often AK vs. AK and then you end up splitting the pot. Or AK against a smaller pair.
Matt, I loved your work in Rounders.
Rounder,
I loved your work on the mat.
How did know I was a wrestler in school. 
Enrique, how's your Dad, Julio? By the way, I like your new single. Kick Ricky Martin's butt, o.k..
Rounder,
You said, "I have black/red AK UTG. Call - thinking if I hit the flop I have it disguised and I see thie guy in th BB loading up - 5 call to him and he raises his bb I call rest call."
Calling the big blind is a mistake. You should have reraised the big blind pre-flop. Maybe some of those drawing hands would have thought twice about calling two bets. They will usually always call one without thinking about it.
Not my pre flop action it was about what was this a-hole thinking - in mid position calling a raise with Q6o - then taking the heat the KK and I generated with an under pair and no draws.
I know what I was doing pre-flop and just wondered what this guy was doing in the hand at this point.
He limped in for a bet and called the big blind raise. If he had to call two bets he may have folded. Obviously, he was not thinking and got lucky. His hand was pure trash.
When someone plays Q6 and hits part of the flop you can stick a 357 magnum in his face and he ain't going nowhere. There is no logic to his thinking because there is no thinking by him.
Bad players don't seem to mind being in a hand with crap cards if they put their two bets in one at a time. You let the Q6 do just that. If you had raised UTG, he may have thought twice about having to put both of those bets in at the same time.
It's a blueprint for the ideal suckout. Take it from one who's been sucked out on more than all the Slurpee's in all the 7-11's in New Jersey.
Rounder is Dr. Frankenstein and the Q6 playing bum was the monster that he created (he created that monster by calling - instead of raising - his AKo utg). And the monster ate it's own creator!!!
Hehe ... stud players coming to hold-em play better cards than that. This was your garden variety limit HE moron. Let me one-up you here. Limit HE tourney, I have 10-10 in mid-position, a raise by UTG, with 2 callers coming to me, I raise to clear the field -- but four of us see the flop. Flop comes 7-4-3 rainbow. BB bets, I reraise, last position only calls (BB drops). Turn is 6 of clubs, board is 4-suited. I bet, last position calls. River is, you guessed it, a 5, straight on board. Check-check. Last position shows me Q-2 offsuit. Now what could THAT guy have been thinking???
A hand from the 1998 WSOP (yes, Rounder, this one is real).
Scenario. Late on 2nd Day, down to 5 tables. You have 35k in chips, SB and BB each have about $150k. Antes of 400, blinds of 800/1600. You're dealt Q-Jo on button, field folds around you. What is your play?
This hand depends on who is in the blinds. I would ask myself what am I trying to accomplish with this hand. I would look for any excuse to fold including gut feelings.
Since, most of the better players are left, I would probably fold, but it would depend on who was in the blinds and what they thought of my play. If I did decide to play it, I would have to move all-in.
There's 6k in the pot and with such a strong 2nd day lead the SB & BB won't risk unless you're a chump or they're maniacs. They rather bully with position or some sense of the board.
I say moderate raise of 5K-7K. Anything really big is too obvious a steal and you'll get called by any sort of semi-premium hand. A moderate raise asks to be called so the SB & BB might just give it up to position. If they come over the top you can lay it down and still survive.
However, I wouldn't do it if they've caught me/seen me bluff.
But I could be wrong.
-Peanuts
Note that if you raise to 6k, the SB is going to fold everything but rockets and cowboys. he can't and shouldn't risk tangoing with the BB(other chip leader).
The BB could call with any pair making you for a steal but that would mean committing 35K, which is about 1/4 his stack (to put you all in) to only win 12K. It don't make sense for him to do it with anything but a super-premium hand.
The odds are both of them don't have anything near a premium hand. And what are they really giving up to "let you take it"? The blinds are insignificant to them at this point.
I say you're not going to get too many opportunities to steal and this one looks pretty good for the 6K raising price.
But I've been wrong before.
-Peanuts
I'm gonna post before I read anybody else's...so here we go.
I really think that this situation has very little to do with the cards in front of you. You have a serious chip disadvantage to the Blinds, and since they have made it this far and acquired a fair amount of chips you can imagine that they are fairly solid. What needs to be determined is the likely hood that you could get away with a steal, assuming they don't have anything. There should be close to 6k in the pot, so you would need to make it about that to go. The problem is that either one of them could move in (no matter what they had) without damaging their stacks all that much (assuming they are only against you, not the other blind) and with a hand such as QJo you can't call. I don't think its worth risking 1/6 of your chips to try a steal against two players that can easily force you to fold...my play is to laydown and wait for a better situation.
With those TWO big stacks behind me I am not in steal mode. To big a risk need a better hand one I can take a reraise with. And I can't call a reraise with QJ.
I was in this position last night with AJ and ran into AA in the bb - ouch - player out.
If I'm in the big blind, I wouldn't be able help myself from restealing with anything if you commit any chips to the pot.
Say you put in a "pot-sized" raise and make it 8k to go. I'd be looking at a chance to pick up nearly 10k in chips uncontested as I know it will be difficult for you to call my all-in reraise with anything but AA or KK.
If the big blind thinks like this (and he probably does to have such a stack), you've got an obvious commit-or-fold situation.
If you MUST play for the 6k, you should "slide" all-in or commit half your stack and gamble that they don't have a real hand. It may be a bit premature for such drastic action, but the blinds and antes are eating you alive at 6k per orbit.
I guess it depends on whether you are trying to slip into the money or have a shot to make the final table.
I probably make a move here, but I would always rather burn out than fade away.
I would make my pot-sized raise, just like always (i.e., every raise I make in NL tends to be a pot-sized raise, unless such a raise uses more than half my stakc, in which case I go all-in).
Before you call, there's T6400 (if the table is full), so a pot-sized raise is a total of T9600. Round this up or down to 9K or 10K, whichever you would do with AA.
Of course, as others have said, it depends a LOT upon who's in the blinds, and their current opinion of you. The above is simply my typical play for most circumstances within your description.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I, like you, tend to always make a pot-sized raise when I am not short-stacked. If you MUST dogmatically adhere to this type of raise, I gotta pass here since the risk of a resteal is too great.
p.s. The NYC guys fared pretty well in that last NEPC event (despite my absence). Are you coming down to the Big Apple Classic to return the favor?
And I will likely be there to win your money. ;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Omaha-8 tournament question:
I was dealt AH-7H-JC-9D in a low limit Omaha-8 tournament earlier tonight. Though it was not a hand I loved, I would have played it from the small blind in an unraised pot. The player to my left (big blind) was playing very tight and not raising much pre-flop. My small blind post was 200TC. The big blind's post was 400TC. An unknown newcomer to the table raised to 800TC. There were two intervening callers, making the total in the pot 3000TC. It would cost me 600TC to call.
I had a medium stack, maybe 3000TC. It was several rounds past the end of the re-buy period. There were still about five tables to be eliminated before anyone would be in the money.
What should I have done?
(I folded and, as luck would have it, my nut flush would have scooped).
Advice would be appreciated. I'm afraid I'm folding hands with which I should be calling when I'm in the small blind and there is a raise.
Thanks.
Buzz
I'm no 08 expert, but this seems like a clear muck for a raise in the SB. Your hand has no low value, and the only nut straights you can make put (at least) two low cards on the board.
You have the worst position and the hand is likely to get jammed on the flop, even if you flop your flush draw.
This hand is very weak, especially multiway against a raiser and 2 guys who can call that raise cold. Your only likely win is the flush or straight, and those will often be split pots. Fold and wait for a better hand or better opportunity.
If the board hadn't made your nut flush, would you even consider posting this question? Think about it that way, and you'll answer many of your questions before even posting them.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Here's a followup for the below hand from the 1998 WSOP.
Scenario. Late on 2nd Day, down to 5 tables. You have 35k in chips, SB and BB each have about $150k. Antes of 400, blinds of 800/1600. You're dealt Q-Jo on button, field folds around you. What is your play?
Well-known players on both blinds. Peanut brings up an interesting point. I'd just stolen with the identical hand and shown it. Both Michael and mah mention that they would either fold or move all-in. In hindsight, I agree those are the only two choices.
Instead of the one of the two above choice, you decide to just CALL on the button. Since the steal here is obvious, you intend to make a move on the flop. The small blind drops, the big blind gives you a look and then checks. The flop comes Ac-Q-c-7h. The BB checks. What is your play?
I bet and call his likely check-raise.
I think most "well-known" players are more likely to check-raise you with a hand you can beat here than they are to show you an Ace.
Move allin. You have enough chips to move him off the pot.
I suspect the bb has nothing here or is sitting on AK KK AA - I make a 5K bet - to see what happens maybe I win it here maybe he calls maybe he folds - I like my hand here but no tto much.
Since, I did not get raised. He has a hand or he does not. I would say that in all likelyhood he does not have a hand, yet, since he checked. If he's an aggressive player he would have played with you already since your stack is small. He probably has nothing. Push in the stack and pray you double up. You can not afford to waste any chips and you don't want to check.
I'm watching the movie "Top Gun" as I write this. Very appropriate, as this is where we all get shot down.
As Michael recommended, I did in fact bet -- and got check-raised half my remaining stack.
The analysis from here is pretty easy. As Rounder and Mah noted, my opponent didn't have much of a hand before the flop. So what could she have to check-raise with? Not an Ace, or I'd have gotten played with before the flop. If she's got a Queen, it's a worse Queen than mine. Only logical hand is bottom pair with the flush draw.
To call, fold, or move all-in? I called; here's why.
If my opponent has the hand I put her on, she has 9 clubs, 2 sevens, and 3 of her sidecard to beat me with -- 14 outs. Thus although I have the completed hand, I'm the underdog to win the hand -- and I have the short stack. If the turn doesn't hit my opponent, then I'm going to move all-in.
The turn came the Jack of clubs. Any suggestions what to do from here with the remaining 15k or so?
That why I move allin. I don't want any tough decisions like this. I would call. Great laydowns are not my thing anymore. I wasn't correct a high enough frequency to continue. I just put my chips in and gamble.
Earl,
I hate it when the flush card gets there on the turn. But, what are the chances you're getting pressured with bottom pair, and she just thinks you're bluffing. I'd probably toss in the rest of the chips. Unless you think that you'll have a chance to win with 15K. You'll have to get real lucky either way. With only 15K left you're going to have to have the deck hit you on every hand you play.
BTW, keep posting. It's always the tough situations that are hard to deal with in the heat of battle.
What made this situation worse was that the Jack gives me two pair. If my read is correct, I'm drawing very slim (4 outs). Thus I should throw the hand away. If my read is wrong though, and I throw the hand away, I've crippled myself to the point of nearly no-return.
I went all-in for the remainder of my chips. Alas, my read was correct. She had 7-4 of clubs and I caught no Jack or Queen on the river.
My opponent was Kathy Leibert (and Pat Fleming was in the small blind). She and I discussed this hand later by e-mail and she stated that she made a mistake by not check-raising me all-in on the flop. I agree, since her drawing possibilities are maximized on the flop. She also noted that if I'd raised before the flop, she would've had to throw the hand away, although there was a small chance she would play back. So everyone who wanted to move all-in before the flop were absolutely correct, as the decision was all-in or fold. I confess that in the heat of battle it never occured to me that the best play was all-in (I believe the smoke and the late hour had something to do with this reduced ability to reason).
Nice post.
I guessed that this was Kathy Leibert when you said it was a "she". But I couldn't believe she didn't check-raise you all-in on the flop if she was indeed flushing.
This would have confused me and I probably would have called or bet on the turn when I made two pair.
Here's a hand from the NEPC NL HE tourney. $220. gets you T500, 45 minute levels, with unlimited rebuys during first 3 levels, $200 gets you T500 more (must have T500 or less to qualify for rebuy).
It's the second level, and I'm the chip leader at my table with about T2000. 9-handed, I'm the T20 big blind. Solid player in middle position raises to T50, loose bad player calls, SB calls, I call with Th7h. Flop is 5h8h9d. I have a flush draw and a straight draw, which means I have up to 15 outs, making me a favorite over any single hand (except a higher flush draw, to whom I am only a very small dog).
Now, I know I'm a favorite, even if I go all-in right now. But, I'm thinking that just because getting someone all-in may be profitable doesn't mean that it's the most profitable play. Some of these guys (the cold-caller and the SB) will likely pay me off AFTER I make my hand, if they have top pair or 2 pair. So, I decide to check behind the SB and see what develops. Solid player who raised preflop now bets the pot, T200. Loose player calls, SB folds. I'm torn. I can jam all-in and try to win T600 uncontested, knowing that if I'm called I'm a favorite, or I can call and try to make the draw and see about getting paid off afterwards. The solid player and the loose player both have about T800 left in front of them.
I just call. Turn is Qd. I check, solid player bets another T200, and loose player goes all-in for T830. I now think he could easily have the made straight, in which case I'm down to 9 outs, and do not have odds to call. Or, he could have the heart flush draw and a pair of Qs, in which case I'm drawing dead to him. I fold, solid player calls. Solid wins with 888 vs. 555.
I'm fairly certain the fold on the turn is correct. However, I'm curious how many of you would have either check-raised the flop, or bet out on the flop, and why.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I would have checked the flop as you did to see how the action develops. Once there were two callers who seemed like they were committed to the hand, I would have moved all-in. I know I have outs if called, I just don't know what they are, so I don't like the check-call when out of position.
I am in stack-building mode here, even though it is still early.
You actually were in an ideal situation where they both have sets since your outs are all good, it minimizes there redraws, and you would likely get called in both places. I'll have to check on Poker Probe whether you would be getting money odds here, but I'll bet its close.
That being said, I might play it your way, depending on my mood. In which case, I think the fold on the turn is clear cut.
There is no doubt that getting it all in preflop, against 2 sets, put me way ahead in terms of EV. However, there is danger with 2 opponents, much more so than 1, when you don't know what they've got.
Very seldom will 2 guys flop sets, so if I get action from both of them, I will find myself against a good made hand and a draw pretty often. The real danger would be facing a set from one player and a BETTER flush draw from the other. In that spot, I've only got 6 outs, and they both have big redraws if I do hit.
However, if I had made the big check-raise to put them all-in on the flop, it would have surprised me when both of them called, and would have been unexpected.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
That's why I would have raised all-in after the bet and call on the flop. Get it heads-up against the made hand and get some dead money in the pot. Of course, you may get an overcall from the nut flush draw, which is the worst situation.
But is is also unlikely for there to be two flush daws out. I think it is more likely that you get called by the made straight or (foolishly) by a straight draw.
Greg,
I believe you played the hand correctly after you checked.
But, as an option I may have, depending on what I thought about my opponents play, bet out on the flop the size of the pot representing a made straight. With only two people in the pot you may have a chance of them folding or just calling. This would have given you a chance to win the pot uncontested and if they called you would have seen the turn maybe for the same price.
What would be a good rebuy strategy for a NL HE tourney w/ a $75 buyin = T100, then there's an add on 75 for T100 and then up to 3 buyins $50 = T100 for the next 2 hours?
Basically, if the rebuys and/or addons are cheaper (in terms of cost/chip, not actual cost), then take them always. If they're the same price, take them or leave them, no big deal. If they're more, never take them, unless there are some unusual circumstances (like lots of money added by the casino to the prize pool).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Last night I played a tournament ( there are very few tournaments in Houston ). It's now heads up and I have about 75 percent of the chips left. I am small blind and I look down and see pockets queens. I raise 3 times the big blind and my opponent calls. The flop comes Q 3 3. Should I have checked, made a small bet or a made a big bet ?
Sorry to say, but it depends. Obviously, you want to get as many of your opponent's chips as possible. You just need to ask yourself how to best achieve this goal? It's clear that unless you're lucky enough to be against A3, he has nothing at this point. Well, he might have a pocket pair, but probably not AA or KK. So, how can you get him to bet or call with his pocket pair, or get him to bluff with his nothing?
If he's passive, I'd bet your normal amount and hope he calls. If he's aggressive, I'd check and let him bluff. Also, keep in mind how deep the money is. If his remaining stack is less than the size of the pot, check to let him try and steal it. Also, is the flop 2 suits or 3? If it's 3, you check and hope that he picks up a flush draw on the turn. If it's 2, you hope he has a flush draw now.
I'm sure you'll think of lots of other factors to consider. Just get into this guy's head and try to guess what he's thinking right now. Then play so as to take advantage of what you've figured out.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You also may want to consider exactly how many chips your opponent has left. Once player's stacks get TINY they will often just throw the rest in and hope for the best. On the other hand, if it is someone who is very aware of trying to survive and does have more than a tiny stack, this approach will not work.
If you were me (or I were tou), I'd be firing chips at this guy in this situation regardless of whether or not I hit the flop. If I check, he probably smells a rat and might get off a hand that he would have called with like a pocket pair.
Automatically checking your monsters is bad poker in no limit and makes it easier for guys to call when you (much more frequently) flop nothing.
Bet the pot. Hope he calls.
If he calls, I might check the turn and let him try to move me off my "obvious" AK.
Bet i think I belive that they think you going to steal.
It could be played either way, but I think the relevant factor is that you are headsup. Your opponent likely doesn't have much, so you need to let him catch up. I'd give him two checks here.
You have the ideal trap situation here. Depending on his betting patterns you could check or make a small bet at the pot to induce him to bet these situations depend more on what he thinks you are holding. Over betting the pot if he thinks you are trying to buy it might work as well.
It depends.
I'd make a small bet at the pot most of the time if I were in this situation.
I'd slowplay this hand to the hilt by checking both on the flop and on the turn. Then I'd make a big reverse psychology bet on the river to represent an Ace high steal.
You steal often when you can check down an Ace in a heads-up pot?
Only when I don't really have an Ace high.
Do any of you guys know what night ESPN will be showing the WSOP.
...but I don't know when they'll play it again.
Does anyone know of a website that accurately lists holdem tourneys in vegas, monday through thursday
go to card player site and then go to tournaments then go to bottom of page and then click on nevada it will will show you tournies jg ...best of decisions.....
Ben 3 weeks since I won and only 2 very minor placings in small tournaments since. Been getting lots of unplayable hands and in late position marginally playable that I have to muck to a raise.
Just not getting an even break in the cards in critical positions. OR am I playing a different game.
Seems like I haven't changed much maybe not as aggressive as I was - maybe it is a blood sugar problem.
Question is. What to do while in this funk?
I am just playing my usual tournament schedule and playing the best I know how.
Any Ideas?????
Stop playing 97o.
Take a break or slowdown. You probably are not playing as well as you think you are. I would probably try to play a little bit tighter.
Make sure that you have a low risk money management game plan in place before you go to Las Vegas for the WSOP.
I don't play 97 or A9 - I am tight.
Take today for exaple I finally start to get some cards in NL HE game 27 left - doubled up twice in a few hands played perfectly - then I call a 3Xbb raise from a loose player wih a ton of chips I have T$3500 - he has around T$5,000 - I have AQ flop comes Q 8 5 rainbow.
He checks I put all my chips in he has KK and I am on my way home - I don't mind this at all it is part of the game - it is the blinding out with no cards for hours at a time. I made a good play and got beat no big deal -
I would not call that a good play. Loose players pick up hands. You have too many chip to get involved with a marginal hand in that situation.
With the WSOP upon us, I thought I'd bring up some "zen" type stuff to consider.
The last few WSOPs there have been several unknowns finish 2nd whose play has been criticized to varying degrees. Let's go down the list.
Alan Goehring - Note to Padraig: Alan finished 3rd in 1997 $3000 NLHE, which he said was his first tournament ever(according to the Conjelco report); last year's final was his fifth tourney entered. As a corporate bond trader and analyst, one might assume AG's income the last five years would top all but a handful of "pros".
Kevin McBride - Everyone, right now, should go to Card Player's site, and read the interview w/ KM in the 6/25/99 issue. It's in the articles/archive section. Compare his business and family accomplishments to those of a "great" poker player, like, oh, say, Stu Ungar, f'rinstance. I'd also like to have KM's tourney record the last 2.5 years; who 'bout ya'll?
Howard Goldfarb - My understanding is that HG is a very successful developer in Toronto, and I know that he has at least one other "big one" money finish, as well as a couple of placings in some of the smaller events.
Hugh Vincent - Retired CPA who spends most of his time sports fishing. He won a $1K Omaha tourney at the Queens in '96 or '97.
Maybe none of these guys are "great" players, but they sure are winners in life, at least from what I've seen. So don't whine if some "nut" puts a beat on you in a satellite or watch the tape from this year's Final Table and talk about how "that guy can't play".
See everybody there May 1st thru ???, and knock 'em dead this weekend, wherever you're playing.
Those who have stability in other areas of live have more mental freedom when they take on poker challenges, and often do better than those under the stress of performing for a living. Stress causes as many mistakes as can be induced by not knowing the proper strategy or having the ability. Throw in the vagaries of luck, and a stable, liquid, and skillful, but not pro, player, has a fairly good opportunity to do well in the WSOP. If the public ever wakes up to this, the game will explode into the mainstream.
I agree. One key is for insiders to stop barking about lucky outsiders and start promoting it as a crapshoot that anybody can win. I took the suggestion and reread the Kevin McBride interview. He candidly admits he was very lucky AND won 3/4 of a million. That should be the mantra of every public statement about the WSOP.
Nice post!
I do see a tendency among many regulars here and rgp to downplay any successes of part-time players. Now Vince Burgio is a noticable exception. I loved his piece in CP about some folks always "yes, but" (sorry not sure of exact quote) about someone elses tourname nt victory. Good attitude about part-time players in general. Best,Gary
I love to see it when amateurs get to the final table and do well. This makes more people play all over the world not only in tournaments but in Home games, casinos etc. The more the better. I play at least every week, but I make too much money at a Job than I ever could at Poker (even though I win a majority of the nights I play). Even fictional bullshit movies like "Rounders" are good for Poker as it gets more attention and then more people play. If only the pro's played at the WSOP the pots would be less and the crowds would be thinner. We will leave the Pros the invitational type tournaments that they alone deserve like a "masters game".
Since, this is a public forum and any of these guys probably have internet access, we are not talking behind their backs. If they read the information, they may learn something about themselves that they have not thought about.
You said,"Alan Goehring - Note to Padraig: Alan finished 3rd in 1997 $3000 NLHE, which he said was his first tournament ever(according to the Conjelco report); last year's final was his fifth tourney entered. As a corporate bond trader and analyst, one might assume AG's income the last five years would top all but a handful of "pros"."
For instance, I don't care if Alan won money in a tournament, I want to know how Alan played the game. Any information I can get on people before I play a tournament has some value. Then if you see this player playing this way you can adjust to it.
A problem that people have in tournaments is adjusting to a player that is weak. When I say weak, I mean the style of play. Like someone that will call you down with nothing. There are a lot of "pros" and "ameteurs" that do not adjust their stagegy. They are very aggressive and the weak player calls them down. Guess what happens? The weak player wins alot of pots and finishes much higher than he should because the pro did not adjust properly to game conditions.
Finally, I do not know how Alan actually plays. I never played with him yet. But, I think it's great if you get someone like Padraig to contribute to the forum so you can learn something.
I see nothing wrong with discussing how different people play their game. T.J. Cloutier will tell you in his book how Kevin McBride played his hands. So, I see this as valuable information. It is not meant to insult the player.
Furthermore, when you make it to the final table, people will be talking about you too. Especially, if you misplayed a hand and got lucky.
This is from the first limit holdem event at the WSOP a few years back. This is a real hand. I don't remember the exact details but this is roughly what happened. We are about two thirds of the way through and I am in the big blind. Everybody folds and the small blind, a solid player raises me. We each have about T2000 and are playing 400-800. I have pocket fours. What do you do? There are roughly 10 tables left out of 50. Thanks.
Bruce
There were several thoughts I had at the time. Do I have the best hand? If I do than I am a very small favorite on the flop. It's unlikely I am up against an underpair, but I could certainly be up against an overpair, where I am in deep trouble. I am low in chips, but not quite desperate. Do I want to "gamble" now? The flop probably will not help me and what do I do when bet into?
Those small pairs are so treacherous in a tourney when you are short-stacked. Espeically in a limit tourney where you get half your money out in the middle before the flop, then stand a very good chance of getting no help on the flop. You may already be beat, and even if you have the best hand now, you are only even money with this guy to win it. Either reraise or fold. Since you've got time to make it one more round, I'd be inclined to fold.
Even with a 55 your opponent is probably forced to raise your BB. This advice seems right on the mark to me.
I'd put him on a steal. But what could he be stealing with? Chances are he will be doing it with AT LEAST two overcards, most likely with at least a Q with a kicker higher than a 4 or better. If this is the case then you're only even money, more or less. Not worth the risk of going broke.
If he is stealing with two overpairs then you're in even worse shape. Definitely not worth the risk.
The only hands that you can really beat are 2-2, 3-3, and any overcard with a kicker lower than a four.It's an easy fold especially since you still have enough bullets to play on until your next big blind comes.
The only hands that you can really beat are 2-2, 3-3, and any overcard with a kicker lower than a four.It's an easy fold especially since you still have enough bullets to play on until your next big blind comes.
What? He is a roughly 11/10 to 6/4 fav to 2 over cards and if the sb has a 4 in his hand he is drawing dead to his big card. I like the odds - reraise him.
Live game, reraise. Tournament, fold!!!
If you commit to going with the hand I like a call with a bet on the flop if no ace comes. if you get all in you're in the same position as you were before, but if not, the other guy sitll has a chance to get out and not see the turn or the river. He's getting short stacked too, so he may be looking to stay safe.
I decided to play the hand. The flop came 662 and I was bet into. I raised on the flop and we both went all in. I spiked a 4 on the turn to win the hand. I was up against pocket 8's and sucked out. I got a mouthful from the player who I busted out as he was leaving. I was taking way the worst of it but I escaped. It happens to the best of us.
Can you outplay the small blind or do you have to hit your hand? Can he be bluffed? If the limit is 400-800 you already have 400 in there and position. In NL, I would probably fold or go all-in. In your situation I think a call is best.
Russ
You're too far from the money yet to worry about merely surviving. You've got to win some chips between now and then to make the money. So, you just have to ask yourself what this opponent might have. What hands would he fold here? Is he so aggressive that there's nothing he'll fold? Is he so tight into survival mode that he has to have a hand here? Given the range of hands you put him on, how often are you a dog to his overpair?
If you only put him on an overpair a small fraction of the time, then play this hand. If he has to have a pretty good hand to raise you here, then fold. If you play, play as if he has 2 overcards of unknown strength, and reraise preflop to get the initiative. Let him know you've got a big hand. Then, when he misses the flop (which he should more often than not), he will hopefully fold to your bet rather than go broke.
Obviously, none of this would have worked against his 88, but getting lucky isn't a crime.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
"Getting lucky isn't a crime". It is round here. Draw out on some people and you'd think you had just run their dog over.
Andy :-).
Is the player(s) doing the whining a good player, or a regular loser? If it's a regular loser, you can consider just keeping quiet and letting him rant. If it's a good player, you can consider inserting the needle to the point that he loses it and gets ejected from the room. I've done it once, and it was great. Most often, no matter who it is, I'll let them rant and then make fun of them after they've gone.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The player who I busted had one of those bracelets on his wrist. I initially ignored him, but three days later, when he was still talking about how bad I played it got real ugly when I began needling him. Back then among good tournament players there was no real clear consensus how to play the hand.
NL HE game 27 left - doubled up twice in a few hands played them perfectly - then I call a 3Xbb raise from a loose player wih a ton of chips I have T$3500 - he has around T$5,000 - I consider folding the AQ but this guy is loose and would make this bet with any number of hands I have beat flop comes Q 8 5 rainbow.
He checks I put all my chips in he has KK and I am on my way home.
I thnk this was a pretty bad play not the call but the all in bet. I should have bet T$300 to 500. If he reraises me I get out. My thinking was if he is on a AK or under pair like JJ I want to blow him out of there and win it right there. This guy would probably call with KQ or JQ but not raise.
Comments.
The only way an AQo would be worth playing before the flop in this situation is if this raiser is in steal/late position (thus magnifying the possibility that he is on a steal). I so, then you must go over the top. If not, then "If in doubt, fold!". As you know, AQo is a mega trouble hand.
With regards to your play on the flop, it's very difficult to come up with an opinion unless you tell us what the blinds were.
Blinds were 100/200 He was UTG and I was mid position.
You neglect to mention how big the blinds are. I'll assume ther were something like T50-T100. No offense but your reasons for making the all in bet are totally bogus. When your opponent is drawing to 2 or 3 outs and you can get away from your hand easily (if a King comes to a lesser degree a jack) it is very wrong to shut them out especially when you are in a good chip position. I don't think free cards are a big problem in this spot. The way you played this hand you will only get a call if you are beat. I believe I could make an arguement for checking behind your opponent on the flop. I'll bet there was about $700 in the pot. You could bet $600. Your opponent is not getting anywhere close to the right odds to call this bet (I'm thinking about your whole stack not what's in the pot) if they have 2 or 3 outs. If you get check raised and your opponent sets you all in for all of your chips you've got a decision to make but you may be able to get away from your hand and have plenty of chips left. To summarize, if your opponent will call when it is wrong to do so you want the call period.
I wrote, "To summarize, if your opponent will call when it is wrong to do so you want the call period." I realize that if the blinds are high enough you are low on chips you don't mind winning the pot right there without a call even though your opponent is making a mistake. You aren't going to win a lot of chips with this hand so I think playing a big pot was wrong.
Like I said in my post I played this hand all wrong - the world class play was a smaller bet and fold if he came over the top.
I blew it - and agree with you - I asked a lot of local players what they thought and they mostly said they would play it like I did so I know for sure I played it wrong cuz I usually beat these guys cuz they make mistakes like I did.
It was a bush league play and not a world class move.
Rounder wrote: >I blew it - and agree with you - I asked a lot of >local players what they thought and they mostly said >they would play it like I did so I know for sure I >played it wrong cuz I usually beat these guys cuz >they make mistakes like I did.
I love it. Ask the fish, knowing their opinion is probably wrong. Funny thing is, while reading this paragraph, as soon as I read "I asked a lot of local players", I thought to myself why is he asking these guys that he tells us play like crap? Then I finished reading the paragraph, and saw that you were right in step with me.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I'm not going to say that AQo is a bad hand, even against an UTG raiser. You claim to have a good read on him and say there's a good chance you have him beat. But you're still in mid position and have no idea, however unlikely, if someone else later down the road has YOU beat. Not to mention that you're in a pretty comfortable chip position and must jeopardize it by ramming your head against the leader. Why bother?
Dan
.
i would usually fold the AQ, but if i was going to play it i would push all in preflop. you know, be happy when everyone folds or try to double through the loose player. people will fold everything short of K's behind you, and once utg knows you mean business he may lay down AK or even QQ. two hands that have you in trouble. and if he is the kind of loose player that is loose all the way, let him come at you with a worse A. do it for all the chips.
once the flop comes, you're going home. even if you bet smaller, are you really going to fold to a loose player when he raises you? wouldn't he raise with AK? KQ? A8? other things you have beat? you say he wouldn't, so maybe he wouldn't. but i wouldn't make that fold against a loose player, unless he was very passive.
if you could have folded to his raise on the flop, you should definitely have folded preflop.
scott
Rounder if you are sure he cant have a worse queen than you than his hand can be narrowed down enough for you to try and pick off a bluff and lose less if he has you beat. id consider checking behind him. then call his next bet on the turn or raise him if justified. if a bad card comes for you he is first and you can use your best judgement to decide to go on calling or not. also if you make this play with the hand you said, do you also do the same thing some times on a bluff and with aces. you also need to keep him from narrowing down your hand.
I was involved in a tournament hand last night and I would appreciate the forum's views on a particular aspect of it.
The important point about the situation was that I had received a great run of hands and had raised or re-raised in 5 of the previous 6 hands and had not once shown my cards.
Pot limit HE, I have an above average stack, there are 2 tables of 6 &5, waiting for one to drop for the 10 seated final. 3 places paid.
Next hand I am dealt QQ and raise. A player that I do not know well with a below average but reasonable stack re-raises with, as it turns out, AA.
I realise that there are many factors involved in my decision, but the main factor I would like views on is the re-raisers perception of me, based on the previous 6 hands - that I am a loose aggressive blind-stealer?? - and whether I should consider that this would lower his requirements for re-raising.
I was seriously considering folding, because I felt that there would be better opportunities later in the night. However I decided to raise the AA all in because I felt that the perception I had created might result in a him raising with many hands that I could beat - was this a case of overthinking?
Dave,
Your thinking sounds entirely reasonable. It all depends on your perception of your opponent. Some (maybe even most) people will keep laying down moderately good hands in this spot to a raiser because psychologically they don't want to be knocked out here. If your opponent is more aware, however, he knows you might be weaker than a normal raiser, plus he will be willing to gamble in this spot.
This is normally a great situation, to pick up a big hand when you are stealing a lot, and I think you played it fine and got unlucky.
Paying only 3 - are you playing in Reading ?
Andy.
It was Riverboat Glasgow Flop - KTT Turn - Q!! River - ACE!!!! (Play music from shower scene in Psycho)
Poker gods were smiling on me though and I still managed to get in the money.
They let you buy back in to the final table?
Sorry I wasn't quite clear in my last paragraph of my original post - the AA had less chips than me I reraised and put HIM allin- I had about 4K left
you are missing something. unless the player is a very good player or one with alot of imagination, most cant bring themselves to reraise in a critical situation without a monster. thats just how it works in the real world. ive gotten broke in games using the same thinking only to find they always got it. you needed to fold if the reraise was substantial enough to be other than a bet to get all in on a hand he may play anyway. the tempo of the game gives it away as you said you didnt get played with all the other hands you raised with. it means they werent going to go broke without a great hand no matter what you did. you needed to fold for most raises and just keep robbing small pots. you were in the best spot in a tournament with players willing to give up much of their chances of winning just to make the money.
I think Mr. Zee is right. Another thing, when you come back over the top your opponent is not going to call a substantial re-raise without having you beat.
As I said in the post, I was seriously condidering packing because I was under no pressure and could wait for a better situation and certainly would have packed were it not for the 6 hands before. Ray has made a very valid point - my opponents were being very cautious and were happy to wait for monster hands or the final.
I think that my last raise was correct though because I see 5 cards and am not guessing on the flop and my opponent may wrongly fold AK or at the margins KK (unlikely I know)
I think a reasonable behavior from this opponent was that he was not going to tangle with you while you're on a hot sea unless he really has something to fight with. Point being that he was waiting for a big hand and therefore was more likely to have something like this when he went up against you. He could just as easily had the Queens or AK and done the same thing. Unfortunately it the monster AA.
It sounds like he slowplayed these Aces to trap you.
This is the 2nd time I posted hands explaining I played them wrong and asking for imput but all you want to do is bash my play of the hand which I KNOW I mis played.
Please!
Rounder,
Consider your calling with AK thread below. Several people pointed out quite reasonably how you could have avoided the problem and how you can avoid it next time, but you absolutely refused to listen, preferring to focus on your opponent's play.
You may have noticed that I had stopped responding to your posts myself because I just felt it was a waste of time. You have a very fixed idea of what works for you, and obviously it does work in the particular games you play in, but you will never be able to adapt to different (and better) games until you are honest with yourself. Roy Cooke talks about "If you see a good move, think of a better one".
I don't mean any offence, I am really trying to help, but you should know that leaving your ego at home improves your game and it would certainly improve the benefit you get from this forum.
Good luck,
Andy.
Look!!!!!
That Q6 Guy was playing every hand and my raise wasn't gonna thin him out - PERIOD - I was just asking what was going through his head - And I know I played theh AQ all wrong I just wanted to know how others might have played.
That's all - trying to learn from my mistakes.
Again no offense about the guy with the Q6o. If he was wrong to call a single bet then he was even more wrong to call a raise so the raise is an even better play. If this player is as obvious and weak as you claim why did you call on the river? Did you honestly think he would bet on the river with something that couldn't beat your hand? I understand that there were a lot of chips in the pot, however, one advantage a good player has against an obvious, weak, easy to read player is that they can save some bets. I also know that there are the clueless types who would foolishly bet on the river with a weak Ace thinking they had two pair and are oblivious to what you might be holding. This player from what you describe wasn't one of these clueless types.
I suspect your problem with raising with AK under the gun stems from the fact that often you get one or two callers behind you and often rags flop so you don't know where you are at with your overcards. Understanding what your opponents will call raises with is helpful but not always possible. There are a lot of situations where the pot is head up or three handed and your AK is good. If the pot is 4 handed or above often it is not. You just have to play good poker in these situations.
Rounder,
Ok . . .
No one's trying to bash you. Regardless of the outcome. You make money from other peoples mistakes. By giving your opponent incorrect odds he should fold, if he was a good player. Maybe, your opponent with the trash hand would have still called a raise cold and you could be right, but what if he didn't? The point we're trying to make on this forum is the correct play for the situation.
As I stated in my response, I meant no offense. I felt like I observed a serious flaw in your thinking namely shutting people out of a pot when there were only 2 or 3 outs. I feel that the right thinking is to entice players to call when they are drawing thin.
Not everyone has the subtlety to analyze without it appearing to be a slam. Some may mean it, but many probably don't.
Rounder, you're too sensitive. To tell you the truth, I have learned a lot from the hands that you've posted and the threads that those posts have generated. And I'm sure others have too. You're doing a great public service by doing so. I am sure that a lot of people will appreciate it if you continued to post your hands.
Hi all.
Just thought I'd relate to the group how many bad tournament players we have here at Foxwoods. They pretty much gave me the money today.
Limit is 500-1000, blinds are 200-500. I have won a single hand so far, and have posted 500 of my 1600 in the big blind. Fold to button, a weak and slightly passive player, who raises. Small blind folds, and I call with JhTh. Flop is a total miss, Qd7c4d. I check, he bets (but does so with lots of hesitation, which tells me he doesn't really like the flop), and I call, mostly for the size of the pot and the hope that my 6 outs are still good. I now have 1 chip left. Turn and river are blanks, and it gets checked down. Gift #1. Raiser has AK and wins.
I post my last chip in the SB, and manage to win when my 75 flops a straight. 3 chips. Two hands later I call with QQ and win again, tripling up to 9 chips. I then proceed to get awful cards, such that waiting for the next hand was always the best choice, including my UTG hand of 52o. I post 500 of my 900 in the big blind, and EVERYONE folds! Gift #2. I fold my SB, and am back down to 900.
Next hand, on the button, no one is in yet, and I have Q9o. Not good at all, but better than average, and the blinds are both very tight players. I raise all-in to 900, and the both fold. Big blind was a chip leader at this stage, but I knew before I raised that she would fold many of her hands. Still, I'm slightly surprised she was so compliant about it. Gift #3.
I win another hand, lose some blinds, and am at 2500 when the limits go up to 1000-2000 with blinds of 500-1000. Lady who folded to my all-in raise is down to 1500. I raise from the button first in with KdTd, and she folds again! She's getting 6:1 on to call a button raise. In both cases, I don't even know why she looked at her cards. In her situation, I would have made both calls blind. Gift #4.
I manage to work my stack up, and get to the final table with a reasonable chip count of 15,500 (average stack was about 18,000). Chip leader is on my immediate right, and is showing me his cards frequently. I mean, he holds them up and I can't help but see them. He is very aggressive, and very loose. After a few hands, he is UTG, and raises with QdTc. I can't help but reraise, because I have AcQh. All fold. Flop comes 9 high with 2 clubs. He checks, I bet, he calls. Turn is a baby club, 3 clubs on board. We both have a flush draw, but mine is better. He checks, I bet, he hesitates and then folds. Too bad. I'll take the action when the opponent has only 3 outs, and I will know it when they hit. I would have checked, but I was sure he would call with the flush draw and 2 overcards. Gift #5
Things go even better from here, and I'm soon the chip leader. We get down to heads-up, and I thought I had it won when I flopped a flush and got action, but my opponent unfortunately flopped a better flush (the second nuts). We started the hand with my holding about 90K and him 80K. No raise preflop, and bets are now 5K, 10K. He could have easily won 20K extra from me, and finished the hand with 160:10 lead on me. Instead, he was apparently concerned that I had the nut flush, let me save 20K, and the count was 140:50. Gift #6.
I get it back to even, and we chop it up. This guy says he's never made the money before, and wants to know how we decide who's the winner. I tell him that I've got a couple of thousand more, so I guess I'm the winner, but I don't care. If he wants to be the winner, then fine, he'll go down on paper as the winner. He says he'll give me an extra $20 to be the winner. We're only playing for the $200 difference between 1st and 2nd, so I say "that's a deal". Gift #7
Now, there are some players here who are quite good. And the day-to-day ring games here at Foxwoods aren't anywhere near as easy to beat as the games back in California. However, when it comes to tournaments, I think we just have too many inexperienced players. A lot of these folks just don't get to play tourneys that often, and you will see MANY serious tournament errors made. As you can see above, I either should have been eliminated, or at least forced to risk elimination, on each of gifts 1, 2, and 3, and the players let me off the hook.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
"and am at 2500 when the limits go up to 1000-2000 with blinds of 500-1000. Lady who folded to my all-in raise is down to 1500. I raise from the button first in with KdTd, and she folds again! She's getting 6:1 on to call a button raise. In both cases, I don't even know why she looked at her cards. In her situation, I would have made both calls blind"
Let me get this straight. . .Blinds are 500/1000, and I'm assuming she's in the BB, so she's got 1000 already committed to the pot and only 500 left in her control. You raise on the button, SB folds, and she holds on to her single nickle?? I guess she was hoping for Aces in the SB next hand. Or am I misreading this section?
Anyway, congrats on winning. . or not winning. Whatever you guys agreed on.
You read it right, with 3000 in the pot, she folded rather than commit her last T500 chip, to a button raise.
Gotta love it. I'd rather have the T1500 for free than have her call, even though it means I could eliminate another competitor and win an extra T500.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Ouch - a few of those really made me wince. Let's hope I meet a couple of those plays this afternoon :-)
Andy.
Greg, congratulations. Take 'em when you get 'em to make up for the times someone makes a bad play and still beats you. I went all-in with A7o against A4o, got a 7 on the flop, then lost on the river to a wheel when a 3 came. (7-5-2-Q-3). The best hand I had all day, ATs, was a misdeal. Oh, well. Kate
I got a gift yesterday.
3 hands - 1st 2 set up the 3rd - flopped flush Q high check bet raise call I check raise all call. bet and called to river. AA in hole, flop A and 2 spades check bet turn and river.
Hand I have A7s flop comes JJ7 - turn a 2 - dealer passed me and 2 knock before I can act. I say hey I didn't act - which I didn't - dealer says ok I thought I say your hand move I say "OK move on" they acted behind me and it is checked around. River is a T I bet folded to woman on my right she shows me a T and says "I'm not calling I saw you slow play a set of A's and I know you have the J's" - I muck and say good lay down.
Since there's no smoking, it must have been the smell of the fossils (ha ha ha). I wish I could play in a tournament where people made that many mistakes. But, Foxwoods is in the middle of nowhere.
It's a really odd situation here. The regular daily cash games are NOT that good. I hear that the high limit stud games are good, but I'm not good enough at stud yet to be a good corroborator of that story. The regular HE games are certainly beatable, but not for nearly as much as the same limit games back in California, or even in LV.
Yet, the tournament players are weak, including those who play tournaments almost to the exclusion of cash games. There are some very good players here, but at least half the field of every tournament I've entered here are players who will make many BIG errors. This is even more true on Tuesday night for the NL HE tourney. I can raise preflop with AA, then bet the pot on the flop (Q94, for example), and all-in on the turn (2, for example), and I will often get called by QJ and the like. Again, know your player, but you've got to be prepared to mix it up with these folks during the rebuy period, because they're often in there trying to give you their chips.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
I assume you're refering to the weekend tournaments, and I agree the field is populated with bad tournament players. Hell, I'm one of them. I have little experience playing in tournaments, but the paltry entry fee and the comp points are enticing.
I haven't won any yet, but I've made it to the final table roughly 45% of the time, 8 for 17. I've even finished in the money in 3 of 7 stud tourneys, and I never play stud.
Of course, many of the HE participants are stud players, and the better players, for the most part, choose not to play. I agree that most play horribly. One example: four of us at final table, blinds are 3000, 6000. I have about 15000, and raise to 6000 with 99 off the button. Chip leader, who had just announced to all he's not going to mix it up with the shorter stacks (?) calls with 75o on the button. I flop at set (no, I didn't checkraise) and bet out. He stays around to the river to catch a 7 high straight on a gutshot. Gone! Perhaps I played this badly, I think, as I collect fourth place.
Glad to hear you took one. Congrats.
John
im glad my staking you has paid off. please send my end or big paul feeney will pay you a visit with his baseball bat.
Although I did not finish in the money in any of the tournaments,I got paid of in 5 out of 6 satellites .In the 550 stud satellite 4000 in chips in play three handed I have 50 in chips go all in 4 out of 5 hands no body calls finally get rolled up 8's raise get called by a3flush I go all in on 4th street get beat by 3 running aces.WAS glad to see my opponents next day at 120 nolimit they were first two knocked out .It seems that a lot of the players played the satellites and the tournaments as though they were live games
You still owe me $1500 for my NEPC tourney failures. Pay up or Big John will visit you with his sandwich.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think you're backing the wrong person. One of our posters came in 9th place at the $120 No-Limit Rebuy Event at Foxwoods. I think her name is Kate, but she's not sharing any of her tourney stories with us, yet.
mah -- I posted the very next day (April 9). I would post more hands, but my memory is really terrible! Kate
nm
pencil and paper revives the memory and dont do what PF must do as that totally destroys your mind as he is living proof(not sure about the living part).
Louisville is on his way. Camera's showed him making $1500 yet he says he lost that amount.
Knee Caps are my favorite touch!!!!
zee never trust anyone you never met!!!
Especially ME!!!
ukw
half for you half for me. got it. lookout boneyard buddy.
Greg,
I dream of tournament line ups like this. But, with the luck I've been having lately, I get stuck between Seidel and Bonetti. Maybe, I should have been at Foxwoods instead of Tunica.
BYW, I'll be in Vegas for the end of the big one from May 17th to the 23rd. I'll be a spectator watching the final table on the 18th. Good luck.
,,
Greg
Great post. Too bad I don't live on the east coast anymore or I would be right up there entering tournaments! Of course it is MUCH warmer here in southern california!
I think the best points made by Greg in this post is to know your opponents and to take advantage of the opportunities you are given, whether tournament or ring game....
Dave in Cali
How does the wed. night tourn. work at the Bike? What time do you have to sign up? How much does it cost? Anfd how many rebuys are there?
Unlimited rebuys. Be there no later than 7PM (starts at 6:30). Progressive stack rebuys, so the first rebuy when blinds are five and ten is only for $200, when blinds are ten twenty it's $300, and goes up to four hundred at 15-30 level. Then there is a possible double add-on at the first break, then the rebuy period is over.
It's important to rebuy only at the 15-30 if possible (or if at all) and to make the double add on. You can consider yourself safely comfortable in the tournament with about 1500 after the double add on--and with a little luck, this can cost you only $35 total. The players suck generally--I was quite new to tournament poker (this was maybe my second no-limit tournament and fourth tournament ever) and went out in 6th place my first time out. Beware, however--they pay two tables, but the pay out for 9-18 is not much more than the initial buy-in and entry fee, so getting in the money is not that big a deal--you want to make the final table.
Playing no limit he.
I have a medium stack, and am in the little blind with two jacks and about T5-6000. The antes have kicked in and it is one hundred two hundred with a fifty dollar ante. three from the big blind raises largish stack about T13000.
Raiser makes it $900 everyone folds, and I smooth call. Big blind folds.
Flop comes Q-2-Q with two clubs. I check, raiser bets $800.
I throw in T2500. Raiser thinks about it for less than a minute and shows his two nines before mucking.
What do you guys think?
I like my play, but suspect that a lot of players would have played it differently. I'll run through my thinking in a later post.
I like the play too. You could be falling into a trap but if you know your opponent it makes it easier.
Question what do you do if reraised putting you all in?
Which is what I'd play it if I had the trip Q's small bet in the flop to suck you in, then reraise you.
I good player might just play it this way weather he had the Q's or not being a pre flop raiser he could easily have AQ.
I don't like the reraise here, unless it's being done with this specific opponent in mind. You're either way ahead or way behind here, unless the opponent has 2 clubs, in which case you're comfortably ahead (except for AcKc, in which case he's a slight favorite).
When you make that reraise, you can only get called by a better hand. The only hands you want to shut out are the flush draws and AK. If he has AA or KK, do you think he'll lay it down here? If so, then that is a good argument for the reraise. If not, then you will make the worse hands fold and the better hands will "pay you off", so to speak.
If you had just called, will this guy continue to push? Would he push those nines even if an A or K comes? Would he bet the A or K only if it hit him? If he would have continued to bet his inferior hands after a blank comes on the turn, then I'd be inclined to just call the flop and try to win more on the turn.
Of course, it all depends upon the player. And there are only a hundred other things to consider. Ray Zee will elaborate (because until he pays me that $1500, he has to at least finish my posts for me).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
In response to both Rounder and Greg's posts:
I was looking to win the tournament.
I only made it $2500 because: I sensed weakness, but wasn't 100% sure, and wanted to see if he would reraise me. I felt about 95% sure that he wouldn't reraise me without a Q, and about 50% sure that he would throw away a potentially better hand like AAs or KKs, and 100% sure that he would throw away a hand with a decent draw like AKos. There also was the strong possibility that he didn't have AAs or KKs because at this stage of the tournament people were still limp-trapping with these hands (not every hand was raised...yet). Finally, I felt 75% or so sure that he would call with AcJc or some such nonsense hand that I had pretty well under my thumb.
Thus I felt that if he reraised, I could fairly safely muck, and still have a decent sized stack to do battle with, and if he just called, I would have charged him adequately to draw to an overcard or a flush. I also felt that I had a good chance to get a better hand to fold.
I wanted to put him to a decision immediately, rather than risk calling him down with the worst hand myself.
I agreed with your play and do more so hearing your rational.
I just had the reraise questions since it is a real possibility the reraise could come.
Understood, that's why I wanted to respond. I was planning to muck to a reraise, and in fact, not to bet it anymore if called, but consider calling if bet into.
I think you should have made a pot size bet on the flop. Just think what would have happened if he checked and got a free card. Now, what would you have done on the turn with a board of Q-2-Q-9? If you don't bet the flop you will be in a very tricky situation. This time you were lucky.
I considered betting on the flop. Still think it might have been the right play. However:
If he hit a 2 outer on the turn, I still don't think I would have lost all of my chips. I think I would have bet $2500 on the turn, and he would have either raised me right then or called. On the river, he would have pushed all in and I am in a fairly tricky spot...but I think I could have gotten away from the hand.
This was a tournament, after all. In a live game I might have been in more jeopardy, but I wanted to win the tournament.
Either way, I don't think I lose more than $2500 to this hand.
.
NL tourney, blinds 50-100 w/50 ante. I have T850, get KcQc UTG. Thinking this is likely the best hand I'll get while my stack is still credible, I raise all-in. I'm called by the chip leader (~T10,000), who has been calling all all-ins with as little as nothing. He has AK this time, though, and I lose. Was it too early to resort to this kind of play? Was my hand too weak for this move? Or was I just unlucky? Anything else I should have been thinking about? Thanks in advance for your comments. Kate
Kate KQ is a very weak hand and I hardley play it at all in early/mid position cuz you can't take much of a raise with it. In NL I need a real hand to play in early/mid position.
It was to early and a call/small raise/fold might be in order. Not good to get busted with a hand like this. Your thinking the suited gives you strength is "limit thinking" and is best forgotten in these NL situstions.
Rounder:
As I plan to get maximum tournament experience while on my virgin trip to Vegas tonight I have a question on her play here.
With T850 and blinds of 50/100 and 50 antes, she has less than 2 orbits left and if she goes any lower, her all-in doesn't mean much.
When do you feel like you HAVE TO move on a hand? From reading Cloutier and Buntjer anything less that 5X the blinds is risk taking time (I assume they mean the antes too).
With 14 hands left, I must admit, I would have probably made the same mistake here. Thanks for clueing me in!
Packerfan
See the flop... Be the flop... You're not being the flop, Danny.
If you have two hands left, eg. T350 with blinds 100-200, then you have to go all-in if you receive a hand that rates to be better than your next one.
If you have one orbit left, then you should go all-in in early position with AA-QQ and AK. In middle position with no callers with JJ-88 and AQ, AJ. In late position with no callers with something like Ax or a small pair. These are very rough guidelines, but will not get you into too much trouble.
If Kate passes, she still has 6xBB after posting, and is in favourable position to steal a pot which doubles her stack, and gives her another nine hands to find a premium hand. If she had the same hand in middle position with no callers, then maybe the play would be correct.
Richard,
The problem with this is that if you wait till you only have 350 in this case, the big blind will have an easy call with any two cards - it will only cost him 150 to call and there will be 100+200+350 = 650 in the pot. I'd rather make the move sooner and loosen up on the hands you describe. Also, hands like QJ and JT are better than Ax in this kind of spot.
In this particular case, as others have noted, the antes are going to kill you soon you need to play pretty quick.
Andy.
Andy.
What if the guy in question had just lost a big pot which reduced his stack to 350. Packerfan asked when you HAD to make a move (I think) and these were my very rough guidelines. I agree with your comments about making the move earlier--it makes no sense to wait until, even if you do win a pot, you can't do anyone any real harm. However in the situation she described, I still believe Kate should have waited. I'd be interested to hear your reasoning behind the statement that "hands like QJ and JT are better than Ax in this kind of spot". This is not a disagreement as such, I'd just like a little more detail.
BTW, now that Kate has adjusted the ante from $50 to $10, leaving her enough for another orbit or so, would you still make the move with the KQ?
Richard
Richard,
Check my exchange with Earl under "Correct Play at Final Table" dated 12/4/00 in this forum. Earl basically wised me up to this (Ax being not so good). You have to consider the kind of hands that will be calling you. Let's compare QJ to A3, raising all-in, thinking about what hands a caller could have. If he has AA-JJ, AQ, AJ we are well behind with either hand. If he has KQ, KJ, A2 then the A3 is much better. If he has KT or any other King, A3 is a bit better. But think about all the hands against which QJ is much better - AT-A4, any pair TT-33, medium cards like QT, JT, Q9. There are many more of these hands and these are typical hands for a caller to show in this spot. If he is in a position to call with any 2 cards then QJ is _much_ better than A3. There are only a handful of holdings against which A3 is more than a slight favourite. The confusion, of course, comes from the fact that A3 is favourite vs. QJ - but that's not the situation we need to consider.
I take your point about being reduced to 350 by a loss, of course this can happen, and given that the antes are really 10 I probably wouldn't make the move with KQ all other things being equal but it is still an option.
Comments welcome,
Andy.
I am assuming a full table here and that the big stack is calling most bets from smaller stacks. I make this play IF I think I can get away with no callers on a short handed table 7 or less. Since this is NL you could be 2 or 3 hands from chip lead assuming a mulit way pot in there some place. I won on Monday night with $500 at a final table and over 39K in play. So you are never out of it in a NL contest.
See Gregs and my interplay below.
Though I agree for the most part with Rounder's comments I do have something to add. Specifically, you ask if it was "too early" to make that play, but don't mention at what stage this hand came up. If you are close to the money then fold, if in middle stages then maybe limp in, then fold if the pot is raised. Raising all-in UTG with KQ is, I'm sorry to say, quite a bad play. Assuming you get one caller, whether your hand is suited or not makes very little difference, TBH. You are playing a mediocre hand in the worst possible position. You have about twelve more hands to see, and after posting blinds you will still have T600 and will be in a much better position to steal.
good point.
Kate,
I think that the other responses are incorrect. I believe that they are overlooking the effect of the big ante here. If you fold here, and then very likely end up folding your blinds, you're on the button. However, you are not just down to T700, but T600. T50 of that goes into the ante on the button, and by the time your blinds come around again (if the table is full), you'll only have T200 after posting your ante when UTG. This is not enough to steal with, nor enough to even survive your blinds without winning a hand.
Plus, the longer you wait to find a good hand here, the shorter your stack gets, and thus you can't win as much. I think you played the KQs correctly. Hope they all fold, and know you have a decent hand if they don't. While it's true that the hands that call you will often be better hands, more than half the time no one will be dealt AA-QQ, nor AK or AQ. People with hands like AJ and other lesser aces will likely fold, even though they are ahead of you. Some of the calls will come from pairs of JJ or lower, which isn't terrible, since you'll win almost half the time.
If there were no ante, folding would be the better play. Or, if you were almost in the money, then folding might be the better play, even with the ante. When I say almost, I mean very likely to reach the money before the blinds reach you a second time.
Too bad someone got dealt one of the hands that dominated you. Other than that spot of minor bad luck, you did well.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I am assuming a full table here. Problem here is the big stack - calling all the small stacks - Although I have done it - I hate going bust with a hand like this in a NL tournament. Frankley If I'm gonna bluff I'd prefer to have something like a 89 since it is a bluff callers would have my KQ beat and most proably dominated. AA KK QQ AK AQ - I'd much prefer to go up against those hands with the 89 than KQ.
A lesson I learned from some really good NL players.
You're correct that 89 does better than KQ against AK.
However, KQ does a whole lot better than 89 against TT.
It's those medium pairs that make me prefer this raise UTG with KQ over 89. While it's true that the high non-pair hands (AK and AQ) dominate you, you do much better against medium pairs with KQ. In this case, since there are only 2 non-paired hands that are troublesome, I think the KQ is still preferable. If you move down to AJ, it may change.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
We had just squeezed down to 2 tables (from 5), so it was a full table. Paid 5 places, so I was a long way from the money. (When I asked if it was "too early" I meant relative to my stack, not relative to getting close to the money.) At the time I thought I maybe should have been more patient and waited for a better hand but I appreciate Greg's point about the high ante. Also Rounder's point about the middle connectors (sounds like Doyle Brunson!). Thank you, everyone -- I know I'll handle this situation with more confidence in the future.
I agree with Mr. Raymer. What are you going to do with KQ call? No way it's raise or fold time and I believe your thinking was correct. True you would be dominated by AA,KK,QQ, AQ or AK and be behind to any pair or any hand with an Ace. However, the hands that dominate you aren't that likely; the pairs you are even money against more or less; and the hands with an Ace if they have a poor kicker they may not call and if they do you aren't that far behind. The blinds are going to eat you up anyway.
Kate;
I don't think you did anything wrong. How long before you get a better hand than this? In such a short timeframe you might get an Ax to try this with, or maybe a small pair. Both of these have their own problems too so . . .
Kate,
I thought it was unusual that the ante was that high. Usually, when the antes are $50 the blinds are $150 - $300. But, the point is once the antes are in effect, the pots are worth winning uncontested. I think that you made a mistake and waited too long to play a hand.
I've been analyzing my own play lately and have been in the same situation many times. Here's what I suggest:
When you make a move-in bet before the flop the most likely hand that will call you is Ace-King, Aces, Kings, and Queens. Very rarely they call with smaller pairs or Ace-rag at a full table. So, you need to move -in on a hand that will be a favorite or LIVE.
When I say a favorite, I'm referring to Aces, Kings, Queens, and Ace-King. I know Ace-King is just about dead to a pocket pair of Aces or Kings, but if your opponent holds Ace-King any hand with an Ace or a King is just about dead unless you have the same hand as your opponent. Your King-Queen looks pretty, but is really a big dog. Really, any Ace without a King as a kicker is a dead hand if called.
A LIVE hand is a hand without an Ace, King, or Queen. So, you should be able to play any pair, connectors Jacks and lower, one gaps, and two gaps. There are not great hands, but I'd rather have Jack-Ten than Jack-Ace if I'm up against the most likely hand--Ace-King.
Kate,
Firstly I think your play of this hand is fine. I'd do the same (with KQ off as well).
Several posters seem to assume that you are only going to get called with AA, KK, QQ, AK. For a start, Kate says that the chip leader is "calling all all-ins with as little as nothing". Anyway, if someone makes a "last stand" all-in move and I have lots of chips and don't fear a re-raise, no way do I pass AT or 99 or KJ or a bunch of other hands. All these hands have medium connectors in a hell of a lot more trouble than KQ.
Andy.
Andy,
My post above yours means that if you can determine what hand will call you, if you get called, what hand do you want to have? After watching your opponents play you should be able to make a good guess. All I'm saying is that you should try to play a hand that will have as many outs as possible against this opponent IF you get called.
No problem. As you rightly say, you have to judge what you will be called with. Only you know this in the games you play in. All the same, are you sure the chip leader in the big blind will pass JJ to an all-in raise which doesn't threaten his stack ?
Andy.
nm
Oops. I didn't realize my error until I read mah's post. In which case each orbit costs me only T250 and I have enough for 3 orbits, and it seems I should have waited. I had been getting bad cards for the last few levels and that made KQs look better to me than it really is. I hope you all will forgive me -- believe me, your posts were helpful. With extreme embarassment, Kate
WHAT!! All the extensive mathematical calculations I did were for nothing!! HOW DARE YOU!!! lol :-)
This does change things. ;-)
However, before, I was sure that your all-in raise was clearly correct. I will now downgrade your play to probably correct, but depending a whole lot upon the opponents. If there are many players who would call with a bad A, then be less inclined to make this raise with KQ. If they will only call with premium hands, make the raise because you will win uncontested so often, it makes up for the times you get called by a premium hand and are a big dog. If most players will fold all but the best hands, but that chip leader dude will call with almost anything, the raise is still probably correct. If he'll call with anything, your KQ is much better than his average hand, so you shouldn't mind racing here to start building up a big stack yourself.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
dear red faced kate,
when you get low on chips its no longer a contest to see how long you can wait to get a hand its a contest to see how many times you can get all in and luck out. as ive said before never ante yourself into these spots. only be there when you have lost a pot to put you there.
'only be there when you have lost a pot to put you there. '
Ray;
Please elaborate.
Thanks - Nick
He means (I think) that you should only be dangerously short-stacked through losing a big pot, not through being blinded away. You should make a move while you still have a reasonable stack.
The fact that your KQ was suited doesn't much matter since you were all in. That is, you had no implied odds, which is the real value of suited hands. As such, your hand was quite weak, easily dominated by either AK or AQ. Given the amount of money you had left, I think your decision was a mistake.
So, you're sitting at the final table, and to your immediate right is the chip leader. He's young, aggressive, and inexperienced. In fact, he's so inexperienced, he keeps showing you his cards when he shows them to his buddy sitting behind him. I mean, you just can't help but see them unless you close your eyes.
He gets dealt A6o, and raises first in from early position. You're sitting behind him, and know that if you reraise, it is pretty much a lock that everyone else folds. If they don't fold, then you know where they're at as well (AA, KK, maybe AK or QQ). Knowing what he has, and having about 12 small bets in your stack, with what hands would you reraise to get it heads-up? You can play this guy perfectly postflop, folding when he catches, and bluffing him out when he misses. That is one issue. If he misses, he might get into an aggressive bluffing posture, and reraise your bluff-raises. So, in some cases, even though you know he missed, you might not be able to get him to fold on the flop or turn, and maybe(?) not even on the river.
I folded my 24o, and was wondering how much better (if at all) my hand had to be to 3-bet and isolate this guy with a known hand.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Off suit, you need A-10o minimum to isolate raise. Suited, A8s or higher.
Wrong.
Just about any two cards will do if you can get heads up with a guy whose cards you know and who doesn't know you know his cards. I woulda played the 24o as a matter of fact.
JG
Matt, if you're absolutely going to put requirements like needing an ace, why in the world would you care what the kicker is, as long as it's bigger than 6?
But the chance that it might not get heads up, along with the chance that you might not have the ammunition to bluff this guy out before having to go all-in, makes this a very dicey situation.
Wish I could help, but I can't narrow down hand requirements for you. Maybe every hand is worth it. It certainly would be funny to catch a 2 on the river and show down your three betting hand though.
Dan
I would play any two cards in this situation. What difference does it make what you have? Assuming he doesn't hit the flop, which he probably won't with that piece of cheese he will have to lay his hand down. My only concern is he is under the gun so somebody actually may have a real hand. I remember playing in a limit HE tourny when I was heads up with the small blind. He flashed his AK and raised and I called in the big blind with a 72o. We both didn't hit our hands on the flop and a blank came on the turn and he laid his hand down when I raised. I would play just about anything as long as my opponent doesn't have a big pair.
I think Bruce has a good point. When you know what the other person holds, not only does it almost not matter what you have, it also doesn't really matter what he has. Even if I saw he had JJ I would call. Chances are good (better than 50%) that the flop will come with one or more bigger cards, and you probably could be able to bluff.
Same with any hand of lower rank: if you know what your opponent has, it's going to be pretty hard for him to outplay you.
Once I was playing with a guy on my right who kept showing me his cards. Despite the fact that I warned him about it TWICE (awfully nice of me, eh?) he kept doing it. So finally I decided to take advantage of it. He had A6o and had gone to the river with only a low gutshot to a non-nut straight. On the river he bluffed into me. I raised him even though I knew I was beat (my KQs flush draw was busted). He thought about it and reluctantly folded. I took the pot without showing my hand. Psychic my ass, Stupid! Anyone who shows you their hand is EASY to outplay and should be exploited fully, that is, after you satisfy your conscience and give him a friendly warning.
As for what hands I would call with or reraise with, I would do so with just about any hand as long as I had plenty of chips, only folding my worst hands such as 27o. If you know what he has, you have an incredible advantage and outplaying him will be easy. I would only get picky once I was low on chips and about to be eliminated, or if I really had a terrible hand and lousy position to go with it.
Dave in Cali
I would not play against AA or maybe even KK. Some players will not lay these hands down. If your against JJ or QQ the likelyhood of an overcard is significantly higher but will your player lay his hand down? Chances are if he flashes his cards he doesn't play real well and even if he is obviously beaten he may still call on the end when raised or bet into.
I'm playing in pot-limit Omaha high tournament tomorrow and don't have a clue about hand selection. Can anyone give me suggestions of what to look for and what to avoid? Thanks.
Yes, look for games you can beat. Avoid this tournament.
Dan
Search the archives for Omaha High.
Good Luck Paul
I was talking with a few players at the WSOP yesterday about how it would be fun to be able to bet some props much like the ones offered on golf and NASCAR these days. I told them I would think some up and make some lines and then give them to them on Friday where we might bet a little amongst ourselves. I wrote these up and thought maybe I could get some feedback to see where maybe I have a bad line. I certainly won't take any action off them, they are just guidelines and thought it would make for good conversation amongst the whole group. I came up with various matchups many along a "theme matchup". I will assume you all know how betting odds like these work. Of course many of these would be hard to define as in earlier play two players might go out at nearly the same time, not to mention one would have to keep track of when players were eliminated. I would think the Horseshoe could generate some action on these, but of course it would be very easy to have problems with collusion or players could theoretically bet against themselves through others. With the World Championship on the line I would hope that would be very unlikely.
Player to have higher finish in Championship Event
"The trees" Huck Seed -125 Phil Hellmuth
"The Asian Kings" Tony Ma -125 Scotty Nguyen
"Do these guys miss a final table?" TJ Cloutier -110 John Bonetti
"When does the side game start?" Berry Johnston -115 Johnny Chan
"Have to watch the foreigners" Surinder Sunar -130 Mel Judah
"The Young Guns" Daniel Negreneau -135 Allen Cunningham
"The Ladies" Kathy Liebert -125 Annie Duke
"Card Player special" Vince Burgio -125 Tom McEvoy
"Quiet or loud game?" Men Nguyen -125 Ken Flaton
Other props Will the winner list his/her residence as NV or CA? Yes -165
Highest finishing female will be what place? Over/Under 7.5
Will defending champ Noel Furlong survive day one? No -200
Will the final deciding hand winner be? Better than/worse than two pair, aces and queens.
Will the chip leader begin the final table with? Over/Under $1.3 million
The highest finish by any player listed above? Over/Under 3.5
Any other suggestions?
I recently played in $35 NL HE tourney with unlimited $20 single rebuys and $40 double rebuys. This hand came up right after the final rebuy was permitted. I had been stealing quite a few blinds and was almost chip leader at my table. Antes are $25 and blinds are $50/$100. I'm early position and make a small raise of $200 with KdKc. A solid player two to my left makes it $400. He's got $1400 left. I've got about $1300 left and contemplate going all in. I only reraise to $900, hoping he'll call, and bet my remaining $400, if no ace flops. I ended up losing the hand to AsKs when an ace hit on the turn. How big of a mistake was it to not go all in preflop?
If he's gonna call 900 of his 1400 preflop, he's gonna call 1300, so you would have lost anyway. You can be disappointed that you got all of your money in the middle as a big favorite and lost, but you shouldn't be second-guessing yourself. If you put it all in as a very slight favorite, then often there might have been a more profitable play available. Here, you're a big favorite preflop and after the flop, so just hope you don't get unlucky next time.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Shove everything in front of you into the pot and pray he doesn't have Aces. Bad beat.
I would have made a larger initial raise and gone all in when it was reraised but I dont think it would have changed the outcome.
Probably I push in pre flop to get the $400 in the pot.
I don't want some one calling my small $200 bet with A2 and chance the ace magnets working their charm. If the guy is calling a big bet with a speculative hand like AK he is a dog to any pair - but KK he is drawing dead to the Ace and you have a big edge. This is the best ace hand a pair of KK can wish for
You played it OK and just didn't have the run of the cards this time. He would have called the all in if he called the $900. You could have called the $400 then pushed in on the flop when no a A fell. This migh have been the best strategy after the all in pre flop.
I like Rounder's idea of smooth calling and pushing in on the flop, w/o an ace, if your goal is to get the guy to fold.
That can work well when bluffing, or if you're not sure if you have the best hand.
However, you don't really want this guy to fold. You want him to call, hoping for an Ace, when you have him at a pretty major disadvantage, as you do before the flop, and on the flop if no ace comes--which it didn't.
Although i would have pushed in before the flop, because I'd feel like a $400 bet into a $2K + pot doesn't really do anything but lay good odds, I don't think you did anything all that wrong. You could even make a case for saving the $400 if the ace does come on the flop, if only to keep chips on the table and try to win the tournament.
With only a big pair I always want a fold - a lot of things can happen and most of them are bad.
I am getting a bit tired of people suggesting sloplaying pairs in tournaments.
NO future in it.
I have a question then. If you are totally against any kind of trap play with a BIG pair (AA or KK), then how do you go about getting any real value out of them? Also, isn't it a bigger gamble to push your whole stack in preflop with KK or AA than it is to see the flop and make a more educated decision. I agree that a lot of bad things can happen to big pairs, but the fact remains that we all like to get AA for the same reason, it can win a lot of money. If we never trap an opponent with a slow play, AA can never really make more than the blinds. What do you think?
I was suggesting that the best play is pushing in pre-flop.
I think that the ultimate reason to slow play AAs or KKs (and it only works with those cards) is to attract a raise behind you, and make a whopping pot sized raise in an attempt to win it right there or give your opponent such terrible odds that even the occasional loss is not really a loss. Not so much a slow play as a trap.
NL is works well for 3 things when betting - build the pot quickly, isolating other players and blowing people off their hands.
You can set a trap pre flop with the size of your bet. Say you spot a weak player who makes big is bets with weak hands you have AA and he is already in for a raise. I want to isolate this guy so I put in a big eneough raise to knock out the others and get a call or a reraise.
To me a trap is playing 78 and flopping a nut straight. Or a pair of 66 and having a flop come AK6 now if you are inclined to trap someone this is the opportunity.
I have had to many players let me in for free with hands like J7 in the blind and flopped huge to take their stacks just cuz they didn't put in a raise even a small one.
This just happened the other day - I was in the BB with J3 and it was checked to me. Flop cam J3x my 2 pair took the stack of the QQ who let me in for free.
Hope I made my point.
Steve,
First, ask yourself this, what hand would my opponent likely reraise with? Probably Aces or Ace-King. Since, his reraise isolated the field, I suggest just calling the reraise. If no ace on the flop, bet the pot, if he calls or reraises you are probably beat.
This is just another way to play it.
Hi everybody, I am a younger player with moderate tournament experience and I have a couple of questions.
I frequently find myself making the final table, regardless of the kind of tournament or the competition, but once I get there I can't seem to do anything. I think I do well at surviving but I rarely have enough chips upon arriving at the final table to make a solid finish. I used to be ok with this, but now my goals have changed. I don't want to just get there, I want to win. Any suggestions?
Look for those times during the tourney when everyone else is trying to survive, and then come out and start stealing, A LOT. If it stops working, you need to back off. Sometimes you can steal quite a few times in a row. Even when they figure out what you're doing, they sometimes continue to let you steal the blinds/antes.
Play the situations, not just your cards.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I've often thought that I don't steal enough, I never seem to have steal worthy cards. The way I understand your suggestion is if the time is right, steal with anything. I guess I really need to loosen up on my stealing tactics. Thanx for the advice.
TJ Cloutier gives the advice of getting agressive right before you get into the money. I've found this to work quite well. A couple of times I've gotten knocked out b/c of this but usually I'm able to pick up pots with nothing. I've found this works best when there are a couple of small stacks and I attack them not only b/c I want to knock them out but they usually are playing super tight b/c they are hoping for the other small stacks to go first.
Its also no secret that late in the tourney (especially small ones where the blinds are raised quickly) you have to catch some cards, luck plays a big role.
Don't need the button to steal eigther. In a tight table a big bet UTG will get the blinds in a lot of situations. This is not for the faint of heart it takes balls to put a big bet UTG but works often eneough to make it a good play - just know who you are playing with if you try it.
Any two cards are worthy of a steal. Just do it against players that are trying to protect their stacks. If one of them comes after you, you'll know.
lil' feller wrote: "if the time is right, steal with anything"
Just remember, the "if" at the beginning of this phrase is the key word. Don't overdo it, or you'll just be another maniac. You need to be highly confident the time is right, or it won't be a smart play. And remember, we use the term "calling stations" for a reason. Don't bluff them.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Loosen up and gamble a bit more when down to 2 tables a lot of players (even the loose ones) tighten up here and if you have been playing tight and have a good image you can build your stack here.
Ok fellow players I`m in the right place for this and theres no doubt I`ll get the answers.. first I`m heading to vegas may 14-18 to catch the end of WSOP. I understand that very low buy-in tournaments are great for rookie experience at minimal cost. question is what casinos have the low buy-in freeze-out ,no rebuy, tournaments.. next question is do i have to call ahead to reserve or do i just show up early enough to sign up.... .....the best of decisions......
jg
left out game I`m interested in.hold-em jg
No need to call in to reserve a place. Tournaments are detailed in both poker digest and card player mags.
You can check their web pages - if you don't get these mags in your town when you get to vegas you will find them in any card room. Just a note of advice - just cuz they are low buy in doesn't mean you won't find plenty of good players in them.
I don't know of any such thing as a "rookie tournament"
Cheers.
Rounder i expect to face some likely good players ,but for the value and experience I think its worth getting my feet wet. You do a great job on here with many others and its valuable when you guys get back to us with your thoughts.There are a few of us that really respect this game that are rookies and we strive to be better then average.. jg
JG,
Call the Casino a few hours ahead of time for the tournament you want to play. This way you don't have to be there too early. You'll find the phone numbers and listings in Poker Digest. I always call ahead.
JG,
Play the daily noontime tournament at the Luxor. Its $22 with no re-buys (20 bucks when you sign up, $2 at the table). Limit until blinds double 5 times, then no-limit. It is designed for beginning players and they even ask if you are a pro when you sign up. Truth be told, there are some guys who play it everyday but they are not pros. I took my girlfriend there for her first ever casino hold 'em experience and she ended up 5th of 20. Great experience for the price.
Show up at about 10:30 and reserve your spot. No phone reservations accepted.
KJS
KJS
yes I did some research myself and your absolutely right about luxor.I spoke to a guy named jim in the card room over the phone and he mentioned that many beginners play as well as a few good players. Also I`m aware that nevada palace has a tournie along the same lines at 8am daily. I`m staying away from rebuy tournies and high buy-ins cause they get alot of maniacs i`m told till the rebuys end then things tighten.also theres much better players in high buy-in games. I`m really interested in this cause i`m out for experience without getting my bankroll severely broken. I must say that andy glazers article pointed me in this direction. How is the prize money structured,would you know. My main goal is strictly make the best decisions possible and with time things will pay dividends.Any monetary gain from these decisions will be a welcomed bonus..... ...best of decisions KJS......
jg
To be quite honest, this tournament is good fun for a low price, but unless you are truly a rank beginner it won't do you much good. You see, the others will almost all be terrible tournament players and you will learn few moves playing against them. To them its just a $20 bet at a blackjack table and they get to enjoy it. So they do incredible things. In the all-in battle recently, I was out of this hand, but one beginner played another, neither said they had never played any kind of NL before. So on this one hand, player 1 who had the biggest stack, goes all in. Not really necessary as no one else could come close to calling all his chips. Player 2, in third place out of 5, called cold with K-10 off. Now you can say what you want about getting action like that, but honestly how will you learn to make proper final table moves when players are making such terrible calls? The leader had JJ and got snapped on the river when a K hit. Now the bad player who easily could have survived a few more blinds and had no real need to call a poor hand against a big stack, suddenly became the big stack. This type of play continued as I think out of the 5 I was the only one with any NL experience. I finished second, but until the end, was thinking how do you play these hands when there are 3 way pots occasionally and we actually are seeing some flops. It was certainly not practice for even a mediocre tournament like the Orleans $20 rebuy tournaments. So yes go have fun, but don't consider it much of a lesson unless its one of the first tournaments you ever play.
You might want to try one of the rebuy tournaments at the Orleans. They run them at Noon and 7:00 p.m. You buy in for $20, rebuys are $10, and the add-on is $10. You are allowed rebuys for the first 90 minutes and then you can take the option of the add-on for $10. Usually, it will run you $40, but the prize pool is usually very good for the amount of money you have to put up. You will get experience playing with good, bad , and everything else types of players.
If you decide to try one, call the Orleans a few hours ahead of time to put your name on the list. They will tell you when you have to be there. If you are staying on the strip, you can catch their shuttle bus from the Barbary Coast. It opperates, I think, every 20 minutes.
Good luck.
weekly tournies. no limit holdem. $30 buy in. unlimited non discounted rebuys for 3 rounds. about 60 players. pays 6 spots.
once i have an ok stack, i have no problem being very aggressive and playing the situation and stealing with nothing. but when i am short stacked, or during the rebuy period when everyone likes to call, i have trouble building a stack without decent cards. my last couple tournies, i have not been able to do that.
what do you think i should do? when i start getting short stacked i just go into "double up" thinking and look for spots to go all in with the best of it. this works sometimes but this strategy seems more apt to get drawn out on and is card dependent.
is there a better way?
i have a pretty tight, solid image.
scott
You already found half of the solution. Looking for spots to get doubled up is the key. However, even during the rebuy period, only play quality hands and get it all-in on those hands. Since your opponents, on average, are playing lower-quality hands during this time, your chances improve significantly. The common approach by most players during the rebuy period is to play more hands, "because you can rebuy." This is patently incorrect in a NL tourney. Do NOT lower your standards just because you can rebuy, but DO try to extract maximum value when you have the best of it. The neat thing about a NL tourney is that you don't have to win in dribs and drabs like you do in a limit tourney -- just one double-up gets you back in the hunt, and a couple of double-ups make you a force to be reckoned with.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
When (in general terms) is it worth it to risk an all-in showdown pre-flop (if you're not short-stacked)? How about post-flop? Thanks, Kate
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
?? Sorry I don't understand.
If all you need is a 3-2 edge to go all-in, you'll be gone in almost 2/3 of the tourneys where you do it twice (assuming you're called).
Ahhh, that we should all live so long as to never get called (especially when short-stacked) or could win the tourney by never getting called. I agree with your premise that would indeed be a winning strategy were he not so likely to get called during the rebuy period. But scott's problem arises before he gets short-stacked, and the better approach is to not dribble away chips but rather to make all-in plays when his opponents are calling with less than premium hands. In most of these situations, premium hands will be a 2-1 or better favorite and clearly if a 3-2 edge is sufficient, then this will be the correct play (and certainly, some of these bets will not be called).
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
but the fact of the matter is in many situations, i know i am very likely to be called.
i, too, would much rather win without showdowns and when the situation makes that possible, i take full advantage of it. i am pretty new to no limit and to tounraments, but i think i am pretty good at med stack and big stack play in no limit. i can be very aggressive and pick up lots of blinds. i am also very good at adjusting to different players. as long as the other stacks dont think of me as almost gone, so to speak, i am quite confident in most of my play. but i can't build the stack without cards, because in the beginning everyone is loose and i haven't yet established my image.
i am still aggressive with semibluffs and such, but i am much more conservative with pure steals.
i guess in the beginning of tournaments and if/when i am later short stacked, i have real trouble picking spots when no one will call.
today i finished 8th of 50. pay 5. i got crap. no AK. no wired pairs until the last hand where i went all in short stacked with wired 4's and got called by K's. i think i should of folded, but that's not the point. the point is i need to work on play in circumstances that make calling likely.
i just dont seem to get enough hands to make waiting to double up profitable. how do you get people to fold when you have to raise all in because a legitimate raise would pot commit you?
scott
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
A good player will see you playing to many hands in steal position and begin to exploit it.
z
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Location: 1st Annual Mini-Series of Poker @ Bike Game: NLHE Tournament - $120 buy-in/No-rebuys
I ended up taking 2nd/chopping with Jay Reisler(sp?) for $4,000 each.
I owe a lot of my game/strategy to Sklanksy & Malmuth. I do hereby express my grattitude and hope they don't expect a cut.
One particularly important hand for me:
Final table. $300 antes, $1000/$2000 blinds. 8-handed.
I'm pretty shortstacked - $4,500. One off the button.
UTG-pretty tight player raises half his stack(which is more than all of mine). I've never seen him bluff but the game has been pretty fast and bullying. Blinds get no mercy.
All fold to me. I see KQo. Odinarily I would fold and wait-pray to get a hand where I can be the agressor. However because of the books I think strategically about the blinds, antes etc. I can't survive a lap around and I probably won't get much better. So I call. Button and SB fold.
UTG turns over a steal attempt KJs. My better hand (KQ) holds up.
I played smart and brave the rest of the tournament. Got really lucky once by going all in with AQs and getting called by QQ but sucking out. And three handed I got really lucky again by trying to steal the blinds with K6s and getting called by KQ but ended up making my flush.
Heads-up with Jay. After the deal (to chop 1st & 2nd) we're both playing chicken/bully with all-in bets. I have 40% of the chips. Then he slows down. He is SB and bets 1/4 of my stack. I have QJs and call. Flop comes rag-king-jack. I go all in. He calls and has a king with a ten kicker. Ragged turn and river. It's over. I took second.
But overall it was fun and I zealously endorse Sklansky & Malmuth's books.
-Peanuts (on my way to getting some real skills)
Congradulations. In order to comment on your hands please indicate in more detail the play of the hands. Like opponent stack sizes.
Ok guys whats your top five playing tips for no rebuy tourneys with $20 buy -in.I repeat no rebuys and $20 buy-in..........(Luxor) would be nice to hear from malmuth,slansky, zee,etc on this post and not just the regulars. Even us lowly newbies can use your godly advice. I`m sure a majority would benefit from this post seeking thier first tourney experience.
jg
Interesting question, I'm sure everyone would benefit by both posting and reading posts on this topic. However I think we may need to be told whether the tournament is limit or big-bet to narrow down a definitive five. The payout structure would help as well. I will go with the following :
1. Take advantage of tight play when players are waiting for each other to be knocked out, usually when one or two more players than prizes are left. This means steal a lot and raise rather than call whenever possible. But you must call other players' raises less often, and you should be more careful if someone has called in front of you - it's now no longer possible that everyone has garbage.
2. Don't let yourself get blinded off so far that winning a pot still leaves you in trouble. Make a move while your stack is still big enough so that you have a chance of winning the pot uncontested and that you will have a decent stack if you get called and win.
3. Raise and bet with glee, never a caller be. Raising and betting always gives you an extra chance to win by taking the pot uncontested. In a ring game you might call to get more value. In a tournament you must win the pot with minimum risk where possible.
4. As a corollary, don't slow play unless you're sure that a free card will not allow someone to overtake you. This means particularly pre-flop. You should be raising enough that a raise with Aces doesn't give your hand away. And if you're re-raising, you're often happy to take what's there.
5. When you have a big stack, don't get involved with another big stack unless you're a big favourite. If you have say 30% of the chips with 6 players left and the real money is in the top 3, stop and think - what would you rather have, 30% of the chips twice here or 60% once and nothing once ? Your pot odds in terms of equity are much worse than your apparent chip pot odds. I can expand on this if necessary.
Note that I have said nothing about how to play the early stages when the blinds are small. This is because you can make a strong argument for either playing tight or playing fast depending on your personal style, your bankroll and the fluctuations you are prepared to accept.
All comments welcome,
Andy.
...and lady luck was a-smiling on me.
I had 4d-5d in the big blind, heads up after already making a save for $900 apiece and deciding to play for the last $400. I had approx. T75K, and my opponent had approx. T30K, after we had each posted our blinds. The blinds were sixteen chips and eight chips. My opponent looks at his hand and thinks, clearly faced with a tough choice of some kind, then raises to 32 chips, leaving himself about half of his shorter stack. This was the only time that he had not raised all-in when raising since we became heads up.
I called.
The flop came 4sKd5s, and i went all in with the two low pair. he called instantly and flipped over AA.
Would you have raised all in before the flop with his hand?
Should i have called the mini-raise?
Chris,
Both answers depend how often your opponent is raising. If he is raising a lot, then it is a good idea for him to raise with AA as well. It is in fact the most deceptive play he can make, certainly if he has been constantly raising or folding then a call should make you suspicious. I prefer to go for a limp, hoping for a raise from you, with a good but not great hand like TT or AQ. With an absolute monster like AA I would raise. As for whether you should have called, probably not if he is raising a lot as you can afford to wait for something better which has a good chance of being in front.
However, if he is not raising very much (not as much as he should be) then at least one answer changes - he probably shouldn't raise with AA, a trap might be better. Although you would have to be there. I still probably fold the 45 though.
Having said that, is a chip 500 ? So the blinds are 4K-8K ? If he makes it 15K you only have to call for 7K with 23K in the pot, so a call might be OK. A re-raise might be worth considering as well, you will be putting in 22K to win 38K, so maybe you don't have the 2-1 odds you probably need to make the play. Only a poor player will fold to your re-raise but if you think he might, then it might be worth a try. Alternatively you could call and then bet the flop however it comes if you think he might fold on a miss. On balance, I'd probably want some higher cards.
To sum up, as usual - you'd have to be there, it depends. Hope this gives you some food for thought. All comments welcome,
Andy.
He should have raised all-in, unless he has regularly been raising by only doubling the BB. I prefer to raise the same amount every time I raise in NL, and I usually raise to 3x the BB. My main exception to this rule is when a "standard" raise takes more than half my chips, in which case I raise all-in.
You probably should not have called. Again, unless it's his regular raise, his "small" raise just screams TRAP. And the most likely hand for trapping is AA, closely followed by KK. Since you need to flop 2 pair or better, you definitely need to consider a fold here, as you will not flop 2 pair or better often enough for this call to be profitable against a big pair. If he could be slowplaying with non-pair hands like AK, then a call doesn't look so bad. Overall, if this mini-raise smelled like a trap to you, you should fold.
How recently did you make the deal? I just ask because I hope you didn't make an even-up save of $900 apiece at a time when you had more than a 2:1 chip lead.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I can't agree more...if the guy kept raising all-in and then raised only a little, it's like, c'mon. Seems pretty obvious from my standpoint. Oh well. Way to get the two pair.
I made the deal about 30-45 min. before, and at the time I did have a lead, but every time I got the big blind and anted, and he stole or won a pot, I lost the lead, and then regained it if I stole...so basically we were even up at the time.
He was raising usually all in before the flop, and this mini-raise did scream trap. I figured him for QQ or AKs at a minimum. If he had raised all in, I would have folded--which maybe makes his mini-raise correct(?) since I played it badly by calling and sucking out.
There were 32 chips in the pot before his mini-raise (16 big, 8 small, two 4 chip antes) I had sixteen in there already. When he put in 24 more, I was getting 56 to 16 or 3.5 to one odds, plus the implied odds of the remainder of his stack, (another 60 chips) giving me 7.5 to one odds. I felt that I could get away from the cheesy 4d5d in a heartbeat, but that he couldn't get away from his (obvious) monster if I hit the flop big.
Still in all...I was posting this one because I suspect one or both of us played it badly.
Greetings:
I played my first-ever limit holdem tournament on Sunday at Bay 101
casino. The buy-in was $28 (T200) with unlimited $20 (T200) rebuys
for the first hour and a final $20 (T400) add-on at the end of the
hour. There were about 90 players who entered the tourney. The top
9 players would be paid.
I was assigned seat 7, table 6. It was a fairly loose table and
within the first 10 minutes, there were four rebuys! At the end of
the hour, I was the chip-leader of my table with about T900, and the
blinds were T15/T25. At this point, I went ahead and bought the T400
add-on. The folks at my table were surprised that I bought more
chips. My reasoning was to have as many chips as possible, since only
a few players had been eliminated at this point and none of the 10
tables were short-handed.
Q1. Was it a bad move to buy the add-on?
Unfortunately, I wasn't able to capitalize on my chip-count due to a
combination of fast-doubling blinds (double every 20 minutes,) bad run
of cards, and tighter plays by me. (For instance, I mucked A2s in
middle position, with about 4 players to act, two of them with big
stacks.) I also mucked KTo from UTG+1, when the UTG folded...
I hung in there long enough to make it to the final two tables (with 6
players at each one.) I was the third lowest in chip-count at my
table, and before long the shortest stack was eliminated by the second
shortest stack, thus making me the shortest stack, and 10 players
remaining (5 each on each table.) I was down to T200, when the
blinds doubled up to T100/T200. I was dealt J2s UTG and I mucked it.
Q2. Was this a mistake?
I posted my last T200 in the BB, and the SB calls me and shows AcAs.
I look at my cards to see JcJs. And that's how close I came to be on
the money...
I felt disappointed for playing too tight, but then I feel that I even
survived that long only because of playing only premium hands...
Although there are obviously many things you didn't mention, of those you did, I see no mistakes.
The add-on is clearly correct, because the chips you are buying cost half as much as the original price. If your stack had been any size whatsoever, the cheap add-on will still never be a mistake (well, maybe if you already had more than half the chips or some such impossibility).
J2s is a below average hand, having only slightly better than 47% equity against 1 random hand. Fold and hope for better in the big blind. Plus, even if you played the J2s and won, you'd likely have T500 or T700, with T200 of it going into the BB on the next hand, and T100 in the SB after that. Better to wait and go into the BB and hope to survive, and thereby greatly increase your shot at 9th place money.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I always buy the add-on if it's two for one. Not enough detail for me to comment on your play. But, don't feel bad about missing ninth place, its usually not that much money.
Ok, here's the deal.
It's fairly early in a multiple rebuy tourney. I have a good sized stack (~T2500). Average stack is somewhere around T1500 or so, maybe a little less.
The play is fairly crazy at this point, as rebuys are not yet finished.
I open-limp in mid-late posistion with Qh10h (although this is not a hand I would play late in the tournament, I think that early on it's worth it.) I wanted a lot of callers, as it's a hand that plays well multiway. There is one caller, and both blinds play.
The flop is Qc4h7s. Big blind bets (who is a very good player) and I raise. Everyone folds except for the big blind, who calls.
The turn is the Jh. The big blind bets out, which confused me, as I had shown a lot of strength on the flop. I raise, having picked up the flush draw to go with my top pair, questionable (but not terrible) kicker. He calls.
River is a non-heart blank. Big blind checks to me, I turn over my hand, he turns over QJo and takes the pot.
My question is, was my raise on the turn incorrect, especially against this player?
Thanks.
Max
Oh, and also--does anyone think I should have bet the river?
Max,
I think you played it correctly. It sounds like your opponent is the one who should have bet the river. I would have checked the river in this situation. I would not bluff on the river. Since, your opponent called your raise he indicated a pretty stong hand and I'm sure he would have called your bet on the river.
I assume this was a limit tournament.
When you raised on the flop, i assume you were trying to get people to fold, and then to get a free card from the bettor on the turn--that's why I would have raised.
On the turn, with the bet, there are 5 big bets in the pot, when you raise, you are getting 2.5 to 1 odds of hitting your flush, essentially, or of getting the big blind to fold, or that he has a worse kicker than yours, or that you might hit your kicker (not knowingthat that is not a win for you)and that he doesn't have two pair. He is a good player, you say, so he probably is betting into you twice with something that he might not just fold for two more bets ( your raise plus the river).
I think a call on the turn is more correct, particularly in a tournament, where chips are precious.
Looks like the battle of the no kicker boys.
If you made this guy as such a good player - he made you for a guy to over play your hand. Since you didn't raise preflop he couldn't put you on a better card than QT - and you certainly didn't have Q7 or Q4 so His QJ looks good - if you are the kind of guy to limp with 77 or 44 I'd be concerned about a set.
All in all I think you both played it poorley.
"I raise, having picked up the flush draw to go with my top pair, questionable (but not terrible) kicker."
Since when is a 10 NOT a terrible kicker?
When all the other players, early in a tournament, are playing hands like Q4 as if they're AQ when a queen flops.
Thanks though--I realize that I played the hand incorrectly.
Max
I don't think you played the hand incorrectly. Your raise on the turn could have picked you up the pot right there. (Not likely though, in retrospect) and you did get a free card and no bet on the river, which you probably were committed to calling anyway, and if the heart does come, you've gotten an extra bet. It was fine.
I just got back from a small ($75 buy in, no rebuy, pay 5 places) tournament, and I have a few questions for the knowledgable denizens of this forum.
I got to the final table as the chip leader with T2140. We were half-way through the 25 minute round and the blinds were 160-320. Total chips in play were around 16,000 (40 starters, but odd chips were runded up).
1) A few hands after the final table was started, I picked up pocket queens in mid position. I brought it in for a raise and the guy next to me went all in for 180. The big blind called also. BB had a medium stack. flop came down 10-9-6 rainbow. BB checked to me and, having the all in guy, I checked. was this a mistake? Turn was a King, BB bet out and I called. river was an ace, and we checked it back and forth. The reason I ask if checking the flop was a mistake was because I'm not sure if checking through to put pressure on the all in guy was the proper play. I don't mind my call on the turn because that guy would bet a gut-shot here, based on his previous play. turns out BBhad a K-7 and all in had an A-J so I was beat in both places.
2) I came out of that one with a little more than seventy T20 chips. I then proceeded to not receive any more playable hands. The limits went up and I was blinded away until I was left with 4 T100 chips on the button with the blinds at 300-600. We were 8 handed at that point. I mucked J-7, 8-2, 7-4 at which point one other player went out. Then the table started talking a seven way split (which, given my chip position, I was very open to). However, the cards had already been dealt, so the tournament director said that we would finish the hand and then talk deal. I looked down at 5-5. I mucked them. Should I have? The entire table seemed open to the deal, so I was very hesitant to put my chips into play at that point. Unfortunately the chip leader (it was pretty even at that point and he only had the chip lead by about two chips over three other stacks) said that he wanted six hundred rather than the 400 that people were proposing. I didn't have a chance to say that I would give up 200 from my split because the cards were in the air. I looked at another raggedy hand UTG, posted my BB and got a 4-2 of spades. flop came down 89O so I mucked there. Posted my SB and got 7-4 o and lost to KQ. So any comments are welcome here. My main question is do I play the 5-5 in that situation? the split that they were proposing would have given everyone more than fourth place money. Thanks.
In your first scenario you should have bet the flop. You clearly have the best hand and the big blind probably would have folded his hand. Even though there is an all in player why let him draw for free. If he calls on the fop and you check on the turn you would have saved a half bet because with the ace on the river he would not bet. In the second scenario your play is more difficult and each hand that is played weakens your position because you are closer to having to post the blinds and hence busting out. With 55 with one player calling you are probably a small favorite but with both blinds playing you are a dog. A deal is no guarantee so playing the hand might be the best route. I think you also have to decide if you want to try to finish in the money or really try to win.
Bruce
You should have bet the QQ on the flop - possibly build a side pot or blow the guy off his raggy K7 hand.
In a tournament you are entitled to call time any time you want to discuss a deal. Giving up the 200 was an option and you could have offered it. Failing that the 55 was playable and you should have played it.
I might also add the muck in the bb was a mistske also.
You should have put it all in and taken your chances with your bb in there no matter how bad it was.
The 2-4s BB? That one was a free look, and it came down all red, all overcards and a bet and raise back to me.
QQ: You definitely want to bet this flop. From your account, you raised to 640, all-in only called 180, and BB called the entire 640. This means that the main pot is 700, but side pot is 920. You do not want to give the BB a free card to beat you when the side pot is a significant amount. Even if there were no side pot, betting the flop wouldn't be a mistake, since there are still 4 or 5 players to eliminate before you reach the money. Forcing out the BB increases your chances of winning the pot, which is probably more important here than increasing the chances of eliminating 1 player when there are still 3 or 4 to go after that before reaching a payday.
I'm not sure whether or not I'd play the 55. It depends too much upon the likelihood of the blinds defending if you raise, plus the chance of other players entering the hand (there seems to be an error in your post here, because you say you have 400, BB is 600, and yet you lost the BB hand and were still in play).
However, I would have done this. While the cards are being dealt, tell everyone to NOT look at their hand. Tell them we can discuss a deal while holding our cards, and if all agree, then we can just all muck without it being a factor. If the Tournament Director tries to object, tell him this is our money, and we can discuss a deal if we like.
As for your later (unspoken) proposal to give the chip leader his $200 off your cut, I wouldn't make that my first offer. Say that you'll give him $50 or $100 of it, and see who else speaks up to donate the rest. You'd be surprised to see that sometimes a guy with plenty of chips will offer to chip in (indicating that he's afraid of going broke and getting nothing).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Sorry, limits were 3-6, not blinds. I think I meant limits where I said blinds throughout the post. as an excuse, I was still steaming. good thing I wasn't still in a game. That J-7 was the second hand that I had seen after my QQ that contained a paint card (the other wa K-3 off). Kinda sucked, seeing my stack dwindle after building it so carefully through the beginning rounds.
Thanks for the advice. How much does the potential of a deal add? In this case, with the blinds looming and my having 1 1/3 small bets, I thought that it was very important. Hell, I was two out of the money at that point and they were potentially offering me third place money. can you see why I like this tournament? Seriously though, one of the earlier responses to my post indicated that I should "decide" whether I wanted to money or win. I think my tournament style and record (17 tourneys played, three firsts, three seconds, one fifth, no other money showings), albeit in smaller tournaments, indicate that I am aiming for the top. However, in this case, it seemed pretty much decided for me unless I made a miraculous comeback.
If the potential deal is definitely off the table until this hand is over, I would also fold the 55 and try to negotiate a deal when the hand was over. Speak up the instant the pot is awarded to somebody, and ask if everyone still wants to split it up. You're correct that the potential of an even split deal when you're so super short-stacked makes folding a more correct play here. Plus, 55 isn't that great if you have to face 2 or more opponents, which is quite possible since you can't make an effective raise.
Remember, just be sure to speak up loud about whatever you want.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I need some validation of a call that I made last night in the weekly Foxwoods Wednesday night 7cs tournament.
It was late in the game. I think that twelve or thirteen people were left and they paid eight. I'm a little fuzzy about the way the beginning stages of the hand went, whether there was a raise on third street or not, but either way, I stayed in with a queen high club three flush. I was heads up against a ten. Fourth street brought the jack of diamonds for my opponent and a blank for me. This jack gave him two diamonds on board. I decided to call his $500 bet, given that I had not seen a club fall yet and I had an overcard. Fifth street brought the King of Clubs for me and a blank for my opponent. I checked and my opponent came out betting. Decision time. I could put him all in on this hand, but by doing so, if I lost, I would be severly crippled and probably would not make the money. I decided to put him all in. Well, the club never came and I ducked out in twelfth place a few hands later.
Comments on this call. Good call?
I might add that I have been to the final table twice at Foxwoods and both times I was short stacked and was the first one out. I wanted to get there with some chips this time.
Mike,
I think it makes a big difference exactly what the action was on third street. Whether your opponent limped into an unraised pot or raised or called a raise has big implications on his possible holdings. And we really need to know how big your stack is and what the limits are as well.
Anyway, although I'm not as familiar with the (more usual I admit) limit stud game, when he picks up a suited Ten to his Jack, you have to think that with any kind of hand, he has either improved or had a decent pair to start with. Now you have missed I would be inclined to fold unless your remaining stack is so small that you are now committed, and if that were the case I wouldn't be too keen on the flush draw in the first place.
Hope this helps,
Andy.
MIKE, I HAVE PLAYED IN A GREAT NUMBER OF THOSE TOURNYS AT BOTH FOXWOODS AND THE SUN. I NOTICED THAT WHEN THE TABLES GET TIGHT TOWARDS THE END ALOT OF PLAYERS ARE JUST LOOKING TO SURVIVE, AND YOU CAN PICK UP ALOT OF POTS JUST BY BETTING STRONG. ALTHOUGH IF YOU FEEL YOUR OPPONENT IS ACTUALLY STRONG YOU NEED TO MAKE A SERIOUS DECISION AS TO HOW GOOD YOUR HAND IS. IN A MULTICALLER POT YOU CAN INCREASE YOUR POSITION GREATLY WITH THE RIGHT HAND, WHEREAS AGAINST ONE OPPONENT YOU CAN BE SWIMMING UPSTREAM JUST TO BE KILLED WHEN YOU HIT THE LAST TABLE. AFTER HE CAUGHT ON FOURTH YOU NEEDED TO LET THIS ON GO. AND MAXIMIZE YOUR CHIP POSITION LATER WHEN EVERYONE IS NERVOUS ABOUT GETTING IN THE MONEY. HOPE THIS HELPS SCOTT
Andy's dead on.
It makes all the difference in the world whether or not he raised on 3rd (I am pretty sure you didn't raise on 3rd, as I expect you'd remember that). It appears that he must have raised, or you were the bring-in, because otherwise there would have been a third player (the bring-in) in the pot. If he raised, you should never have called with a flush draw. It is simply not a profitable hand to call with heads-up, unless maybe you have 2 or 3 live-overcards to his doorcard, and even then it's a gambling hand, which is probably not appropriate at this stage of the tournament. If he simply called your bring-in, fine. However, when you catch a blank, and he catches a card that is highly likely to have improved his hand, you should fold to his bet.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thinking back, I'm pretty sure that he limped in and I was the bring in.
how much to tip.
i know you tip proportionally more the smaller the prize pool.
how are these tips?
60 entrants. $30 buy in. $30 rebuys. prize pool about $4500. first place around $2000. tip 5% of winnings.
70 entrants. $50 buy in. $50 rebuys. prize pool about $10000. first prize $4000. tip 5% of winnings.
one table sat. $30 buy in. winner gets $300. tip $25.
100 entrants. $250 buy in. no rebuys. winner gets $10000. tip 2% of winnings.
am i on the ball here?
scott
I prefer to think of it in terms of a fair wage for the dealers. Ask the tournament director how many man-hours went into dealing, estimate how much per hour the dealers deserve in tips, and tip them a corresponding amount.
For example, if you played in a small tourney with 10 man-hours of dealing, they might deserve to get as much as $10/hour in tips, or $100 total. If you won 40% of the prize pool, you might tip $40-50, whether your win was $500 or $2,500. If you win, and know that many of the lower paying spots probably didn't tip at all (because their ROI was near zero), then you might try to make that up by tipping a little more.
That's my philosophy, at least.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I usually do 2-3% If there is a particurally good dealer I'll slip them a bit on the side.
many, maybe all of the tournaments, the dealers only get from 40 to 60% of the tips as the tourn. dir. and his employees take a big slice. ask about that. its a nasty thing that goes on with tournament tips, with players being put under pressure to tip at some of the places.
What do you do when you have a loose raiser on your right? This is in regards to the tournament I posted about below. I had a mid sized stack at the final table. My cards had absolutely died so I wasn't playing any hands, but neither was most of the rest of the table. he guy on my right seemed to notice this too, as he was raising pre-flop frequently. Often he would pick up the blinds or pick up the pot with a bet on the flop. sometimes, though he would get called down and show a lucky turn card that made his hand. The guy eventually ran into a couple of big hands and lost most of his stack, which is the obvious detriment to raising too much.
During that time period, I picked up nothing that I would consider playing (it's tough to go two and a half rounds in the late stages of a tournament without getting a playable hand) for even a limp. However, I did have a feeling that if I played back at him, it may have allowed me to steal on the flop. These are hands like 8-7o, but I'm not sure if the values matter if I'm going for an outright steal.
I would have to make this type of move while I had some chips in front of me to give a sense of credibility, however, the blinds were sufficiently high that I would have to commit a significant portion of my stack to doing it. In addition, the only time that a move like this would be effective was when I didn't neccesarily need the chips because I wasn't short stacked. My inclination (and what I ended up doing) was to wait for a premium hand (or even a decent hand) to smash this guy with, but, hind sight being 20-20, I wonder if move for the steal value's sake was worth it.
This wasn't the first time that cards ran dry on me at the final table, and, barring my never playing tournaments again, it won't be the last. I know that I can't predict the future, and that the next hand is just as likely to bring AsAh any other specific two card combination.
I know in my head that I should sit back and wait, but after getting blinded away (not to mention while it was happening) my heart could not help but wonder if there were anything I could have done.
If you made it this far, thank's for reading. Maybe I just needed to get the sour cards out of my system. If anyone can validate my play of working out my mucking muscles, please do. If anyone, conversely, thinks I was stupid for sitting and waiting, let me know. Please note, though, that other than the hands I mentioned in my other post (QQ which got cracked, and 55 which I mucked, rightly or wrongly, for other specific reasons which are detailed inthe other post)8-7 off was the most attractive hand I looked at in the last 2 1/2 rounds that I played.
Welcome to the final table. It reminds me of being at a final table and John Bonetti is on my right and he raises every time. Obviously it is impossible for him to have a hand every time. There eventually comes a point in time where you have to take a stand and playback at him but when is very difficult. A lot has to do with position. If everybody else is pretty passive three betting at some point is mandatory before you get crippled. This probably is a bit extreme but I remember one final table in this situation I made it three bets without even looking at my cards and had a successful outcome.
I got heads up with "The Man" at Commerce and got tired of him trying to run all over me so I made a big re-raise with 6-4o black. I snagged 4 clubs and beat his red AQ.
I love final tables - all the rules change and I feel like it is the essence of poker to be there making moves man to man. Don't always need a hand and to me it is what poker is all about.
Your concept is very valid, and very applicable, against the right opponents.
If you 3-bet this guy, it is highly likely that everyone else will fold preflop (if not, you know they've got a monster). If he just calls, then you can bet the flop and hope to win right there. However, you can't make this play with cards that are worse than his likely cards unless you are HIGHLY confident that he will give up if he misses the flop.
Plus, even if you are confident, this plan can backfire relatively often when you're wrong, or when he does hit the flop. In those spots, you will go broke or lose much of your stack. Since we're in the final stages of the event, this is where it is more important to survive for survival's sake than at any other stage of the event. Thus, making a high risk play is often not correct at this stage, unless the reward is sufficient.
So, the real question you need to answer is how much risk does this play involve?
If this guy is going to fold his Q9o after a flop of K95, then you can probably do it. If he is going to stick around with any pair or better, then you probably cannot. This advice could easily be fine-tuned, but the gist here is accurate, I believe.
The best answer to the real question is most likely based upon the answer to the question what does this guy think I have when I 3-bet, and how will he respond?
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Last week this hand came up in the TARGET invitational tournament.
Really good table - most all tight aggressive - UTG makes it $500 2 fold Next all in, next all in, I fold AK, fold, all in then $500 raised thinkes it over and folds.
Here is what everyone had.
1st all in AK, 2nd KK 3rd JJ(smallest stack blinding out). I put the raiser on QQ and that is what he said he had.
Now If 1st to act I may have called the all in with AK but 4th to act with 3 good players raising ahead of me I figured they had me beat or had my cards or both.
I was right.
A came and AK won this got a huge chip lead went on to win it.
Would you have called the big bet in my spot and would you have called it in the other AK spot. KK and JJ (JJ in chip trouble) had no brainers QQ (Bigish stack) made a good lay down IMHO.
This was a great table and very few mistakes were being made.
Comments:
It's better to be stupid and lucky than smart. You have to think you are drawing pretty thin, which is exactly where you were. There are basically two outs in the deck exluding something funcky like a straight or flush. I'll never forget this for as long as I live. At the Commerce a man with multiple bracelets called two big all in bets at the final table with A6o. He was against KK and QQ and of course the A came. He comitted ~70% of his chips. Of course he went on to win.
Good fold. The action of your opponents was a good indicator that you had very few outs or that you might be drawing dead.
Enrique,
You would have laid down AA your so tight. Hey Rounder, would you have called with AKs; if not what hand would you have to have(Kings or Aces)?
Russ
NO with this bunch of players I would have needed AA to call and in this situation I give AKs just a small edge over AKo.
It's pretty important to know stacksizes and the tourney structure when it comes to payment. Is this final table or early on? If it's final table I fold and smile when 2 people bust out putting me higher in the $$. But as usual I guess "it depends"
Last year a friend of mine discussed a similar situation with me. He played in our biggest tourney (Swedish Championships)where i think 1st paid around $12.000 with last money at 13th. When it's 14 people left my friend is dealt AhKh in late position, his stacksize is about average and early position loose averagestack raise it, all fold to chipleading (slight drunk I think) loose cannon who puts original raiser all-in. Friend thinks a little and mucks. Think AQo won the hand where his AKh woulda made flush and win. Play continues and friend bust loose cannon later on and finish 4th for a decent pay. I think he made a good fold.
Mattias
I need more information on the stack sizes. Normally, in a satelite I'll move in with AK suited or not. You'll be surprised how many times I've split the pot. Very rarely, have I been up against a pair of aces or kings. But, if I had a large stack to protect, I may lay it down.
The first wsop in 1970 used a variety of games, with Johnny Moss being voted the winner at the end. (Sounds like they didn't organise it too well.) the following year JM won it, and the following year, Amarillo Slim won. But what game or games were used in those years?
Jesus!! He's killing Daniel Neg.'s title as "Newest Kid Prodigy" and Kevin McBride's "From out of Nowhere" claim all at once. So, anyone got the story on this kid??
He's a newly-minted pro from AC. I think hes hangs out down there with Fat Nicky, the kid from the Diamond Club who has built a great bankroll playing high limit stud.
He seems to play very solid tournament poker. Doesn't really bet that aggressively, but shows no fear. He moved all-in after a guy reraised him at the $2000 NLH final table. He had pockt twos. The other guy had pocket ones. I've never been at his table in a tournament, but watched his final table play in this event and wasn't very impressed. He had the chip lead at one point, but let the Devilfish (David Ulliott) take command of the table.
Sounds like he hit some miracle cards to win the PLO event, but obviously has talent for tournament poker. I think he also wins pretty good in the big ring games at AC.
He also won an event at the World Poker Open.
He's running well, but I don't think he's the next Phil Hellmuth. He's also pretty quiet and let's his game do the talking.
See you soon, Shooter.
It seems a few people think he doesn't play all that well, I'm not one of them. He has great card sense, and his quiet demeanor allows him to do a lot of robbing. he just recently broke my record for youngest bracelet winner by about 8 months or so. The most amazing thing about it was that was only the second time he played PLO. The first time he finished 4th in Tunica! He'll be around for a while, he has his ego in check, and a good head on his shoulders. Except for wanting me to go jump out of an airplane with him, he's very sensible:-) Hey, I'm a gambler, but that's something I have no interest in gambling with! Daniel Negreanu
Shooter,
After reading your post I remembered reading his name quite a few times recently. After rechecking the WPO and WSOP result archives on pokerpages.com I have to say that the most amazing thing (IMHO) about his April/May tourney run is the versatility of this 23 year old!
WPO 1st Limit HE 8th 7-Card H/L 8th PL-Omaha 6th PL-Omaha
WSOP 12th 7-Card Stud 5th NL-HE 1st PL-Omaha
And you're right - I haven't read about either Daniel or Kevin "cashing" in any tournaments this Spring.
Hopefully I "run into" Philip later this week:)
TripKings
We'll be moving the forums to a new server shortly. Just before that happens, I'll disable posting on the forums. You'll still be able to read them, but not to post replies or new messages. Once the transfer is complete, I'll re-enable posting.
Sorry, in advance, for any inconvenience that this may cause.
Chuck
14 left - blinds 500/1000 7 at my table.
UTG KJo makes it 2000 to go all in, next 66 makes it 1400 all in next KK makes it 1800 all in 9s8s calls all in for 1200. All I can do with AA is call the 2K - I have $1500 left.
Needless to say with this many collective outs my chances are deminished a great deal.
J 7 5 with 2 spades - any 6, spade T J or K. J hits the turn and 3 are out I am left with 1500 - who said AA plays best against a big field. Wish I could have bet this hand to get it heads up.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAH
Maybe you should have folded since it was obvious you weren't going to beat those collective outs.
No I wouldn't fold them but I'd have liked it a lot better if it was a NL game and I could blow some of those weak hands off to get me to a big % fav.
So what hand would you rather have ?
the 3 jacks :-)
Of course the AA - my point is the collective outs are really hard to beat that is why I likd NL so much I can bplw people off hands and get 2 or 3 way pots where the AA has a better chance.
But assume it had gone the other way. Assume you just tripled up your stack without even risking your whole stack, and taken 4 players out in the process. Would you have considered yourself lucky?
I understand what you're saying about NL, but it wasn't NL. It was limit play and you were given a great opportunity that happened to go badly this time. You'd make the same choice next time...and the next time...and the time after that, wouldn't you?
Dan
From your post I understood the others to be all in. How would having it no limit make a difference at this point?f You had the best of it going in and that is the best you can do . Too bad the way it turned out.
I have been of the opinion that in a NL contest I want to Isolate a player when I have AA. I would rather win the vast marority of hands heads up - when I lose with AA in a NL contest it means I am out or crippled -maybe I am thinking fuzzy here but I like the double up near guarantee more than taking the flop with several callers. Taking a gamble one of them will hit and kill me.
I think it is an interesting fine point in HE thinking.
I'm still not sure if I'm fully comprehending your argument Rounder.
Asuming this was a NL tournament, everyone else was all-in, making it impossible to isolate anyway.
Assuming that this was limit but they weren't all-in, if I had a chance to quadruple my stack the hand that I would want is AA. If I could isolate, fine. But I'll take my chances against the masses as well.
I do kinda understand where you're coming from. When they're all all-in it's no longer poker, it's war. Flip over the best card and win. Based on how the cards fell, you had absolutely no chance to win that hand. But you'd do it again because the reward is so great when you do knock them off. Not just because of your chip lead but you're now 4 people closer to victory. And when it fails, as it did, you're still in the tournament. That in itself is giving you better odds than everyone else that's all-in. Just repeat to yourself "chip and chair, chip and chair..."
Dan
Rounder,
I would be glad to take this gamble with a pair of aces or kings. You need to build your stack up to win first place. Go for the gold, don't settle for a money buy-in win. Actually, they were playing no limit since they were short stacked, they had to make a move and so do you.
==14 left - blinds 500/1000 7 at my table.==
Most of the discussion about AA's value in hold'em has centered around money games and limit hold'em. However, even though this is a tournament in this situation it does not affect your strategy with AA. I am assuming that the tourny pays about 5 places so you are way out of the money and usually in a tournament that only pays 5 places you want to shoot for the top spot. Bottom line is that being in a tournament does not affect your strategy with AA. I could in some other tournament situations. Before you get your feathers ruffled I am not implying that you said it was. I only mention it for the sake of completeness.
==UTG KJo makes it 2000 to go all in, next 66 makes it 1400 all in next KK makes it 1800 all in 9s8s calls all in for 1200. All I can do with AA is call the 2K - I have $1500 left.==
From the number of outs your opponents have you are roughly about even money to end up with the best hand at the showdown. You are getting about 4-1 on an even money proposition. A situation that any gambler dreams of.
==Needless to say with this many collective outs my chances are deminished a great deal.==
Of course your chances of winning have gone down but so what? The important consideration is your EV (expected value) not how many pots you win.
==J 7 5 with 2 spades - any 6, spade T J or K. J hits the turn and 3 are out I am left with 1500 - who said AA plays best against a big field. Wish I could have bet this hand to get it heads up.==
Again it's your EV that is important and you can't judge the EV of a propostion by the results of a single outcome. As other have pointed out to you, this was a limit hold'em tournament not a No Limit hold'em tournament. Should your strategy change with AA in No Limit? Well yeah probably. I posted the following previously in part:
Start of Excerpt
Rounder you take everything so darn personally I hesitate to write this. There book is written to address limit hold'em from what I understand. Anyway the following is not a personal attack so don't get your feathers ruffled.
A thought occurred to me regarding Rounder, he does not believe or understand the concept of EV (Expected Value). Given the following situations:
1. A lump sum of $100,000.
2. 100,000 chances to spin a non-biased wheel of ten equally likely outcomes where 9 of the outcomes cost the player $1 and 1 of the outcomes wins the player $20.
End of excerpt
Relating number 1. If there was $1000 in a pot and the game was No Limit hold'em and you had AA and made a move (monster bet) that would signal all that you had AA and you would never get a call, you are assured of winning $1000. If you did this 100 times you win $100,000. I present this as a "model" for the strategy of shutting out your opponents and picking up the pot with certainty.
Change number 2 slightly to a situation where there were only 2 outcomes. With one outcome you win $4000 and the other outcome you lose $1000. In 100 times you would be expected to win $4000 50 times and lose $1000 dollars 50 times. Your profit would be $150,000 which is considerably more than $100,000. So obviously number 2 is preferable to number one.
Now you mentioned the possibility of getting heads up which implies having a lesser hand call your raise in No Limit. Yes this is probably right almost all the time and would yield a higher EV most of the time with a sufficient raise. Part of the art of No Limit is to get your opponent to make these calls where they are a big dog. Bottom line in No Limit I would agree with your strategy but it is worth considering (away from the table) the EV of your strategy to make sure that your raises are sufficient.
==HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAH==
OK I fully understand EV SD PO and IPO - but in a tournament I can't buy anymore chips SO I want the highest winning % on my side so I can continue to advance.
I am not interested in the 10,000 hands I will play and the EV of those or the money won in those I am interested in winnimg this hand NOW. It is a really critical time in the tournament and winning with my AA which I seem to get once a month is most important.
I couldn't do anything about it - my point was AA has a better cnance of being cracked with mulit way pots that's all.
Most of the discussion involving the profitability of AA in limit hold'em has revolved around money games. Yes EV calculations become in my opinion more complicated in tournaments. I submit that before you can make an all encompassing statement like you did the payouts and your current standing matter a whole lot and any strategic considerations must be made in light of these. Your strategy will no doubt change when you only need to be one of 5 survivors in order to win a place in a WSOP Super Satellite as opposed to a winner take all tournament.
Can someone do a sim on the AA hand I had below.
5 all in no betting so all 5 board cards will be seen.
JhKc - 6c6c - KsKh - 9sTs - AsAd
whatever a good sample is a million or so hands.
Just interested.
I thought one of the hands was 9s8s and not Ts9s. I think the Ts9s is more favorable for a pair of Aces since it gives the 9s8s a few more outs. It also depends on what was suited on the flop. If I remember correctly the flop was:
J 7 5.
As you can see the 6 or the T gives the 9s8s a straight where the Ts9s needs an 8.
nt
As follows, all figures +- 1% :
As Ad - 52% 6c 6s - 17% 9s Ts - 16% Ks Kh - 10% Jh Kc - 6%
You didn't ask this but you may find it interesting - once the flop comes Js 7d 5s odds are as follows.
9s Ts - 41% As Ad - 41% 6c 6s - 9% Jh Kc - 7% Ks Kh - 3%
I think you are forgetting the re-draws you have when you say the odds are diminished considerably on the flop. For example, if a spade comes on the turn, another spade gives the pot back to you.
Andy.
66 favored over KK preflop? What am I missing? Kate
The other K is in someone's hand, so KK has only one out, 66 has two.
Andy.
I meant one of the Kings, not "the other" as is probably obvious.
This does raise a valid point - just because there are 5 people against you does not mean that they have "30 outs" to beat you. Some cards will be duplicated, it's only a question of how many. For example, in this case, KK and KJ combined have about the same chance of winning as 66, because the duplication of the K hits them really hard.
Andy.
Hi all
I've never played in a tournament for lack of card rooms and casinos in my area but I'm hosting one in my home next month. I'll probably gather 10 - 15 players. Each will get T1000$ for a buy-in I haven't decided yet. No-limit HE.
I think I'll start the blinds at 5-10 and doubling every 30 minutes. Is this reasonnable ?
Should I add antes too ? if so how much ? how should they increase ?
With this structure, how long do you think this will last with 10 players ? (a ballpark is OK)
Any comments or suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks
Make $money$ not war...
theprince00
Where are you - Chicagoland add one more :-)
Your blinds of 5-10 is OK - 10 would be a lot like a satellite - I have been in these when they took from 20 min (10 of those min. was me heads up with another guy we dispatched the other 8 in a few hands) to one hour and 30. Depends on the way the guys play if they are loose or tight aggressive. Look for a NL 10 person satellite to last about 40 min.
Hey rounder,tj,carson, slansky, malmuth, ray zee... heres your chance to play on nuetral turf. hey prince will the band be in the house for half time entertainment.. first half pot limit,second half no limit.no rebuys... what would gallery and floor seats go for..... whats the capacity of your kitchen.... put me on the list for gallery seats front & center
....."wow thrilla in the kitchen".....
jg
Rounder you need to work on body conditioning for this one you cant go in tipping the scales at 240.you`ll bonk the second half.... jg
If you have some less experienced players you might like to give $500 chips and allow rebuys for an hour so everyone gets some play. But if you are all experienced and prefer a freezeout that's fine.
Andy.
Your suggestion is good, and will take from 1-3 hours, mostly depending upon whether the players are tight and skillful or loose and aggressive. If they're super loose and aggressive, it could be over within 30 minutes.
I would skip the antes. They are too much trouble to deal with, and it's too easy to get into arguments about "Who didn't ante?"
You should also consider what you will do when people bustout. Will there be a second tourney starting, or a regular money game, or what? There's a good chance some guys will be disappointed if they lose all their chips the first few minutes and have nothing else to look forward to.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Well I wouldn't mind hosting a DS, MM, GC and all contest. I'd invite you Rounder...
The thing is I live in Canada, Montreal to be exact so I guess hosting a poker "celebrities" wrestling match is out of the question. Unless they're interested...
hey we could even do some taebo :-)
Anyway, thanks for all of the insights...
Make $money$ not war...
theprince00
Victor Chandler Sportsbook has odds on world series of poker final event,check it out www.superbook.com
Wow. . .very interesting. Phil Hellmuth at 40-1 OVER a 60-1 Johnny Chan. And then they've got Huck Seed and Tom McEvoy BOTH at 80-1. I wonder what Sklansky thinks of McEvoy and Seed being given the same odds to win it. . .
And Noel still seems to be considered more lucky than good. . .100-1 to defend.
The Huck number just has to be a mistake at 80-1. They also have Badger and Mark Gregorich at 80-1. The people who made the lines don't seem to know what they are doing, they must have just looked at recent results. Huck is the best no-limit hold'em player in the world right now. 80-1 is a great price. They also have Allen Cunningham at 100-1, another good bet. Daniel Negreanu
Are you just being modest, Daniel? I was thinking of taking some action on you at 35-1. . .whataya say? This was the first year the favorite won the Kentucky Derby in 20 years. Maybe it's a year of favorites all around. . . How do you feel about being the favored over Doyle, Huck, etc. . .
And why isn't Gary Carson right up there with you?? : )
shooter
Frankly, I'm embarrassed by it. I don't think, as I said before, that these people really knew any of the players. Huck is the clear favourite. I expected to go off at about 80 or 90 to one. A few people actually asked me if my mother set up the odds:-)
What do you think are your odds to make the final table Daniel? I agree with you and think that Huck Seed is the favorite, and that Allan at 100-1 is a good bet. What do you think of Kathy L. at 100-1?
To be completely honest, I think most of the odds they give you aren't enough, but compared to the other players at 100-1 or better, Kathy L. is a great bet. They have Badger and Mark Gregorich at 80-1 and they don't really play no limit. The thing about Kathy though, is she'd be a much better bet if you could bet she makes the final table. She doesn't play too aggresviely, therefore if she makes the final table it would probably not be as the chipleader. Me on the other hand, that's another story. If I do make the final table you can bet I'll have chips. What that means though, is I'll make less final tables than Kathy L. in the long run, because I'll gamble in spots that she probably wouldn't. Still, I would take nothing less than 25-1 that I make the final table. Daniel Negreanu
Daniel,
You can bet on players to make the final table, they offer 1/6 the odds for the final 6. See my post below about the over-round book however.
Andy.
Against an estimated field of over 450 players, I don't think anyone in the world is a good bet at 80:1. No one has 5 times the average likelihood of winning. If they did, then it would be profitable to put Huck in the tournament and give him a 70% freeroll. I'm sure that if you offer him a 70% freeroll, he'll let you put up the 10K for him.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
..indeed, Noel Furlong at 100-1. The guy is just so dangerous if he gets any kind of rush and chip stack.
Given that their book adds up to 144% the only money-making option is NO BET. Of course if you want a bet for fun that's different. However I strongly advise anyone who wishes to place a bet to ask them what happens if someone who is not on the list should win. There is no indication on the website that only the quoted players count. If you estimate that 50 more players have real odds of around 200-1 (not an unreasonable assumption as I certainly know of a few European players not on the list who are not "impossibles") you could be trying to buck at least 170% - you'd be better off playing Keno.
However, there's nothing wrong with betting some change for a bit of fun. Daniel mentioned betting on players to reach the final, and they do offer 1/6 the odds to make the final 6. As Daniel points out, you could help your odds by backing a less aggressive player to make the final, someone who makes more finals but wins fewer than the super-aggressive types.
Andy.
What's odds the winner and more than 1/2 the final table is not on the odds list.
I say 5/1
I predict an unknown European probably a Brit will win it this year and final table will be 3 foreigners, 2 US amatures and 1 US pro. No women there again.
Some of these Brits are calling stations from HELL and if they pick up a rush look out.
I checked the web site and I know when the satelittes for the WSOP started, but when do they end? I'll be in Vegas the 11-15 and would like to try my 'luck' in one. Will they still be going on? If so, how do I find out where and when they will be held? www.binions.com and conjelco don't say anything about it. Any information would be greately appreciated.
Thanks in advance, hirlr
2 supers every day at Binions, 4 PM and 8:40 PM, $220 buy in, $200 rebuys, they have a super every day at the Plaza too, 5:45 PM $300 buy in , no rebuys. Hope this help
I often hear people say how they had to start playing more hands in a tourney because if they didn't:
1) the blinds would eat them up and 2) if they didn't start to accumulate some chips they wouldn't have much of a chance later on.
re: 1) All tactical considerations aside (such as stealing, how many limpers, pot odds, etc.), I have felt that it is the current situation that matters when deciding whether to play a marginal hand in a tourney. In other words, just because the blinds will shortly eat you up is not sufficient reason to play a hand unless the hand is likely to be the best you will get before the blinds do in fact swallow you. Is this generally correct or not?
re: 2) What merit if any does the idea have that you have to take extra chances at times *in order to accumulate enough chips to be able to survive later on* ? I had pretty much dismissed this as being fallacious by itself, but perhaps it isn't entirely so, especially depending upon the pay scale.
and 3): What about players who aim pretty much at the top spots only? Again, tactical and psychological factors aside, how does the mathematical merit of their strategy compare with those who mostly try to survive and slide up the pay scale? Here I am interested in a comparison based on the fact that the top 3 is generally where the money's at. Does their strategy increase their overall EV this way, again disregarding factors like the intimidation factor?
and 4): I read that Stanford Wong wrote a book on other games (BJ,craps, etc.) tourn. strategy. The review said the correct strategy was related to a money management scheme in which you risked a lot early in order to jump off to a substantial lead. It also said that Wong believed poker tourneys were based on poker skill. But if that is indeed the correct approach to other games tourneys, might not there be some mathematical carryover to poker tourneys? If so, could approaches like, say, Bonetti's actually have a "hidden" mathematical basis as well?
Most of the top tournament players will state that in the early stages it's all about survival, not accumulating chips.
Mason talks about "increasing your standard deviation early to decrease it later on" in one of his essays. Perhaps he could expand for us, but he's basically saying that there is some merit in playing fast and trying to get lucky early so that if you accumulate some chips you won't need as much later on.
I think it's close enough that you can play whichever style suits you personally in the early stages, and this overcomes the small mathematical factor one way or the other.
Note that if there are lucrative side games to get into then playing fast early on is almost certainly correct.
Andy.
I tend to play more hands and win more chips after the break and rebuy period (if there is one). I have 3 goals in a tournament.
1. Get to the break with more chips than I started with.
2. Get to the 3rd last table with more chips than I had at the break. This is an important phase of the tourney as the players will dwindle to 6 or 7 before moving to 2 tables so short handed play and chip management is really important here.
3. Win the tournament.
You have to play solid polker through out and make no serious mistakes. I play a semi tight semi aggressive game - when I am playing my best.
I hardley ever check and tend to bet rather than call.
I don't chase cards.
I like to isolate weak players.
I aim to win not just make the final table.
I think if I am at the last 2 tables with any kind of stack I am fav. to win.
Of course the cards do some times just dry up at the wrong time - have to bide your time to get the right hand at the right time.
P.S. All the above questions refer to no-rebuy tourneys. I am aware there are major strategic differences between rebuy and no-rebuy.
Almost everyone thinks that if you have only enough money to put in the big blind and you are to the immediate left of the blind, that you should call if your hand is at all above random. The rationale is that if you don't, you're forced play a merely random hand next.Wrong. You play more hands than you would if you were not in this predicament but not all the way down to a random hand. It is somewhere in the middle. If it was draw poker yur normal opening hand is about two aces and your random hand is about two deuces. Thus you should open with one chip left with about two eights. If there is three or more hands left until your blind you shouldn't loosen up that much at all (at least not because the blinds are coming up. Being all in however is a reason to play certain hands you wouldn't usually such as A9)
'...you're forced play a merely random hand next. Wrong'
I've read your post a few times. I don't think you quite explained the specific case of being just left of the blind and why you should not play a hand that is above random? Unless you mean specifically, to toss those hands barely above random but anything higher is ok. Is it due to the certain presense of one extra caller who may beat you - i.e. the BB?
I would be hard pressed to let go of J5o in this situation for example, fearing I'd be stuck with 82 the next.
If you look at hourly rate as a valuable statistic, then trying to accumulate chips is going to help you in that regard. At the same time, I think it is a mistake to play fast early in limit events. In no limit, it is the exact opposite. The simple reason being, you can double and triple up in the first level in no limit, but you just can't in limit. In limit, there isn't much upside to playing fast early. Most times you'll lose valuable chips and double up only rarely. Also, no one is in jeapordy early, you can't push people around, there are no short stacks. An example, say you are playing a typical tournament with 500 in chips to start and 15-30 limits. Is increasing your stack to 800 worth risking that same 300 and going down to 200? I don't think so. You can't win the tournament in the first level, so don't bother trying. You could play cautiously, and win one pot at the 50-100 level that will equal 10 pots at the 15-30 level. At the beginning of a tournament you are in good chip position, there is no need to gamble foolishly like the rest of the players. You'd be much better off going against the grain, when they play loose, you play tight, and vice versa. Typically, people tend to tighten up right around where the payouts begin, that's when you should exploit your tight image and rob like crazy!
What about,
Small re-buy tournament.
Average 40 players (sometimes a little more). 1st Buy in 30 dollars, rebuys available (when you are down to the felt) at 30 dollars each for the first 90 mins then an optional add on for another 30 dollars.
The add on gets you 3 times as many chips as your first buy in and each consecutive buy in during the re-buy period gets you slightly more chips than the last.
How do you play this?
I have seen players bash the hell out of each other in the early stages trying to accumulate chips but this is at the risk of spending a lot on re-buyins when there loose(ish) aggresive play doesn't pay off.
Is it better to be tight at this stage and try and pick your spots running the risk of being left behind?
Ben.
I just avoid multi rebuy tournaments. The luck factor is highest in this type of tournament. Not card luck but table draw luck. I have gone from a fairly tight table which I was chip leader to a table where I had less than 1/2 the chips of the smallest stack. Chip distribution is just to lopsided and besides playing a bunch of loose rebuy maniacs is not my cup of tea.
One rebuy with an add on at the end is OK I prever no rebguys at all but a few are OK.
In a limit holdem tournament the tournament really doesn't start until the break or after the rebuys are over. Psychologically after the break players readjust and the play tends to tighten up. You can't win the tournament until you get to the final table. Obviously at the break you don't want to be crippled but having a massive stack is not a high priorty. Tight play in most situations, but being aggressive is probably the correct approach before the break. After the break selective agression and stealing at the right situations become mandatory. I have found there are usually one or two defining moments which are critical, where I either pick up a big hand and flop a set,etc. or win with a piece of garbage from the blind in an unraised pot. I will also sometimes play very marginal hands if I think the situation is correct. For example I might play a hand like 910o if there are two limpers and I am on the button or one off the button and I like my opposition and I don't fear a raise. I routinely don't do this and I am capable of laying down top pair on the flop. Winning a pot like this while risking a minimal amount of chips can sometimes be the difference of making the final table or not.
Hey,
I suppose I'm a glutton for punishment, but I'm going to post another hand from a tournament I was in for everyone's enjoyment and review. =).
Fairly early in a smallish tournament (~50 some odd players). There are two rebuys and an add-on.
I have an about average stack, and I'm on the button.
The pot is open raised by a prop playing in the tournament (he's a very good, tight-aggressive player) in middle posistion.
It's folded to me--I look down and see two red nines. I three-bet.
Blinds fold (which was my intention).
Flop comes AcKh3d. Prop checks to me. I bet, thinking that if I'm raised I will call, and if no nine comes I will fold to a bet on the turn.
He folds pocket tens face up.
Although this hand wasn't particularly remarkable, I think I was out of line three betting pocket nines against this player. I felt, however, that if I was going to call, I might as well raise, mostly to make sure that the pot was heads-up.
Also, was my bet on the flop incorrect?
Thanks.
Max
My gosh Max I think you've gotten it.
I have been saying for some time - more good things happen if you bet/raise than if you check/call.
Now I don't know what math principle gets credit for this concept but I am sure there is aome formulia to apply to it.
Last night in a tournament I 3 bet a pair of 66 and flop came 76A - 2 bettor (a loose cannon)came out swinging and I just called the flop - raised the turn and river. My set beat his AK.
He says I thought you had KK or QQ - how can you 3 bet 66.
I couldn't answer him. But the 3 bet set up the bigger win.
If I wanted to take some mathematical credit I might start talking about half-bet deception and future implied odds or something (I'm sure others can elaborate :-)).
But in fact you're simply right, more good things _do_ happen when you bet/raise rather than check/call, well certainly in limit poker.
Andy.
Max,
I think you played it fine. Raising made him think you had a bigger hand. If he had a big hand, he would have reraised you preflop. The bet on the flop is correct. Your hand is not that strong, so you don't want to give him a chance to beat you on the turn.
Sorry, WFM.
In order of finish:
1. Phillip Ivey 2. Noel Furlong 3. Daniel Negreanu 4. Layne Flack 5. Kathy Liebert 6. Todd Brunson
Goin' with the form horses; so sue me.. :)
1. Huck. . . need you ask? 2. Daniel, hot off his win at the Taj this winter 3. Johnny Chan. When asked how many bracelets he had, he told someone "not enough"! How great is that? 4. Eric Seidel. Could finally be his year for the big one. 5. T.J. . . just to get back at all us 2+2'ers for slamming his book. 6. David Chiu. . .talent. 7. I hate to say it, but Noel. I hear he's running hot again this year in the satellites, and I believe in momentum.
any other takers?
I'm subconsciously routing for Phil Hellmuth to get knocked out 8th, one off the final table. I don't care who does it, as long as he goes all in with AK and gets snapped off by a QJ.
I'm mean, I know.
Don't forget "Mr.X" in the final 6. There will be someone there who none of you have ever heard of. But you heard the name Julian Gardner here first.
Andy.
Remember the name: Bo Davies
or is that professor x? Either way, psychic mutants make lousy opponents.
Dan
NL HE tournament - you have an average or bigger stack.
You are late position one limper and raise 3xbb with AK and the BB calls.
Flop comes Q - 9 - 7 rainbow.
BB bets limper calls 3xBB - what do you do?
TJ says muck. I agree most of the time.
Same situation but you are in BB 2 limpers to you, you raise the 3xbb with AK - flop Q - 9 - 7 rainbow.
Your turn to act.
TJ says check and muck if bet. I like this in most situations - the hand is over for me here.
Dainel says not the best way to play this hand.
I am interested in how some of you play AK when you don't hit the flop. I see any number of players going to the grave with AK - can't beat a pair of 2's but they'll see the river and bet it with no pair.
Thanks Mike
Wait a minute, I would check muck A-K in this spot, because that isn't a flop of trash. T.J. was talking about a situation like this. Same situation as before, but the flop comes 8-5-2 with no suit. According to T.J., you should just check and muck. Now he doesn't do that, I know this for a fact. He wrote in his book that if you don't flop a pair with A-K and it comes trash, just check and muck, you're opponenet probably has a pair?? A Q-9-7 flop is a completely different story, it's much more likely that you are beat on this flop.
Guess it is ones defination of trash. We are on the same wave length then.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
In the first situation: I would muck 100% of the time. But, the second situation, since my opponents only called my raise, I would bet the pot, since I'm first to act. I'm figuring my opponents call my raise with a pocket pair or a drawing hand like J-T, T-8, Tens, Nines, Eights are the most likely hands against me. If they had Aces or Kings they would have raised me preflop (most of the time). If I got raised, I'd throw the hand away, my opponent has a set or two pair. If he called me I'd put him on a draw, or if he was a tricky player, maybe a set. So, on the turn if I think he was still drawing I would bet, If I think he made his hand I would check. After that its pure judgement on what to do.
2 tables left (8 at mine), pays 9. Blinds at 200-400 w/$25 ante. Folded to me in SB with ATo. I had T1300 (including my T200 on the table), 2 others at the table had shorter stacks, BB had T1400. Would an all-in raise here be a reasonable move considering it costs me T800 to play each round, and I have T1100 left if I don't play? If not, what would be better? Thanks, Kate
AT is a much better than a ramdom hand which is what your BB has.
I think you have to make a big bet or all in bet - I'd probably put it all in here.
With his stack size about the same as yours don't be suprised if he calls with a really marginal hand - I like your chances here.
Kate,
You need to build your stack at this point. Ace-Ten is a great hand to move-in with against the big blind. Futhermore, it appears, since everyone folded, that the play at this table is very tight. This is the time you need to start moving-in on stacks that are trying to protect themselves. Pay attention and jump at the oppontunities. You don't necessarily need a good hand to attack. At this point play your players.
If the BB is tight, go all in and steal his blind along with the antes. That extra 800 bucks can almost double you up. By the way, that 200 is not yours.
If the BB is the type who likes to protect his blind, go all in also. Chances are you'll have the better hand if you do so. It's time to gamble!!!
Kate, because you are asking this question, I'm assuming you may be playing a little too conservative at that stage of the tournament. I would go as fas as to say, you should move in with A anything. Also, any pair, two pictures, and approximately K-9 depending on the type of player in the BB. If the player in the BB is extremely tight, don't look:-) Seriously though, there is too much money in the pot to give a tight player a walk. By not looking you may not "convince" yourself to fold. Here is a good idea you can use in tournaments. Before the hand is dealt, decide what you are going to do if everyone folds to you. Make your read on the BB, before the hand starts so you'll be better prepared to make the correct decision. Then, watch the BB look at his cards, he may give you the tell you desperately need.
No question. . .shove it in.
Thanks, everyone. It's good to be confirmed that my thinking was correct, and that I did the right thing ; by the way, the BB had QQ and I lost. Daniel, I take your point that my needing to ask shows I play too timidly. Also that I don't trust my judgment - due to lack of experience, I hope. Kate
I think that is what Daniel meant. ATo is a very good hand in this situation. It is just bad luck this guy had QQ. He usually won't!
Effective 6/1 - according to all I have heard from good sources - the 3 major Phoenix casinos will cease spreading their shceduled tournaments.
Guess they are not making eneough money.
Was fun while they lasted. Makes moving a bit easier.
Understand they are all going no smoking too on 6/1.
Cheers
There are several people who post to this ng whom I have met in real life and trust to some degree, or through whose posts I believe them to be people with a degree of positive ethics and integrity. I am interested in their responses.
Basically, I started off playing small buy in tournaments, did very well, and then advanced to buy in in the range of $100-300 with my sights set on higher buy in tournaments. I played about 30 tournaments at the $100-$300 buy in level and did ok finishing at 7 final tables and 11 overall in the money finishes. Still, I saw several things that disturbed me greatly. There seemed to be a lot of under the table type actions. It also seemed as though occasionally someone would play a hand very funny and muck without showing while another player would rack chip after chip and build a humongous stack. I have been told by a couple of payers that some individuals will put 10-20 players in a tournament with specific instructions to eventually pass chips to one designated individual who would then(usually) reach the final table with a huge chip stack.
I am curious how much of this really goes on. This is the time that the poker writers and card player columnists can prove their integrity. I want to play tournament poker again and will take the word of those responding to this post. I know there were "name" players in the past(Tuna and Pat Fleming come to mind) who were involved in this so I know that it did exist.
The only real incident of cheating I ever saw was at Normandie Casino. One of the players was the husband or something of one of the people working at the tournament. During the second break(no more rebuys allowed) I saw the employee secretly hand the player a stack of tournament chips. I told another player about the incident and he told me to tell Tom(McEvoy). I did not do so because I guess I figured the player would deny and nothing would happen.
Anyway, I know that some cheating does occur and I really want to know how much of it can affect a single player. Thanks in advance for your responses.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
There are subtle things that go on in tournaments, and there isn't much that can be done about it. Basically, it's soft playing a friend, or your backer, or some girl you don't want to upset:-)
It infuriates me, but then I realize what they are actually doing to each other. They are each hurting their chances of winning the tournament. it's actually happened to me a few times. An acquantance who I became friendly with raised in first position in Stud h/l with an ace to $300. I re-raised with split J-J all-in for a total of $550, only $250 more, and the player folded! I was embarrased, it was obvious collusion, there is no way he could fold there, no way. Yet I had nothing to do with it.
I later told the player that I don't do that sort of thing, and I don't want him to do it either. It never happened again, but it still goes on all the time. Mostly in L.A., and mostly in the smaller buyin tournaments($100-$300).
I'm happy to tell you, I've seen nothing fishy at the WSOP this year, and there are stricter rules on soft playing this year. That's a good sign for the future.
Still, I wouldn't worry too much about it if I were you. You played 30 events and had 7 final tables, it couldn't be affecting you that much!!
Daniel Negreanu wrote: "It infuriates me, but then I realize what they are actually doing to each other. They are each hurting their chances of winning the tournament. "
I usually agree with this statement. However, there is one thing that pisses me off more than any other:
Getting whipsawed in a pot, and then as soon as I fold, both players turning their hands over and checking it down.
I go ballistic when that happens in a tournament.
Max
Please tell the tournament director next time you see this player/spouse combo together. Even if they don't really believe you, they may do something to monitor the situation, just in case. For example, I could stand near the player just before the break, and eyeball his stack to get a count. Then, after the break, I can count it again. If I see that his stack has increased more than a mistake in eyeballing would allow, he's out of there (and hopefully made public).
They could also put a camera on his stack, and track it more exactly if the angle and quality permit.
Anyway, I would never hesitate to tell on somebody just because you think nothing will happen. If you keep quiet, it's pretty much a guarantee that nothing happens, isn't it?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I'd like a rule requiring cards be turned over when there is no more betting as is required on most final tables. I think this would go a long way to avoid what has been talked about in this thread.
Also, cards should be shown by the bettor when there is a show down - I often see the caller show his hand and the bettor muck quickly.
Hey let's face it, cheating occurrs. At the WSOP a bracelet guy was passing chips to his buddy at the break at the Lady Luck. I was in the stall taking care of business when I saw this occur. Might have something to do with how he previously won a tournament. I think it is unethical when backers are in a pot together and the other participants at the table or in the hand don't know of their financial relationship. I play in L.A. and there have been two big cheating scandals I directly know of in the white chip games at the Bicycle and the now defunct Regency where the floor people were involved.
Bruce
Folks: There is a fair amount of cheating that goes on in a number of different ways in the poker scene. Some of it is so well done and subtle you wouldn't know it unless you're told. Some is blatant and should be stopped. I will post more in the future and there is a lot to say. Mostly, keep your eyes open and watch dealers and players. Ask for scrambles. Comment on funny groupings of cards and playing of hands. Pay attention!
"Keep your eyes open and watch dealers and players" This is good advice. "Comment on funny groupings of cards". This isn't. A certain amount of "funniness" is expected. If you start making comments that imply it's suspicious that two successive flops have three suited cards, it'll make you look paranoid to most and foolish to those who understand randomness. Check the Internet Forum for _many_ examples.
Andy.
bruce - what were the two big cheating incidents in LA?
I am attempting to make the painful transistion from ring games to Tournaments mainly No Limit (biggest fear/enjoyment factor). Do you still play the odds game i.e. in the long-term if you draw to the correct odds you should be an overall winner unless you can be read like an open book or lady luck has divorced you.
As an example, you are in a cash game and you flop the four card nut flush draw, with no pair showing, easy decision if you have the 4.2:1 odds you call or raise. However, in a tournament you have the same odds but this time it means you are All-In if you call. Do you still play this drawing hand and then think about the long-term all the way home in the car as you get busted out yet again from a tourney. Or do you think, no it's time to get out of here and let some other fish go for the draw.
Also does the strategy vary if it's still in the Re-Buy stage?
Raffles,
There certainly is a difference. You might like to check the archives for a start for some discussions on pot odds in tournaments.
Now, even though I maintain that pot odds are more of a factor than some other people do (OK, than Rounder does), the fact is that it's not the same as a cash game, particularly when you're going all in. Some would talk about the differential value of chips in a low stack compared to a high stack, some people would say "I need to win this hand or I'm out of the tournament" but it boils down to the same thing.
I can't give you simple cookbook advice, but think about your risk and reward in terms of your chances of winning the various prizes rather than just the chips in front of you. Here's an example. Suppose there are 6 players left, you have 50K, someone else has 50K, the other four players have 10K between them. You do not put all your chips in against the other big stack even if he shows you his cards and you know you are 60-40 favourite. If you win, you increase your chances of winning a bit, but not as much as you might think. If you lose, you throw it all away and get next to nothing (for 6th place).
Earlier in the tournament, the smaller the antes are in relation to your stack the more "normal" a game you can play in terms of increasing your stack, and in a re-buy tourney where you have the resources to re-buy as often as you need to, you can play even more "normally" (whatever that is, which is another point entirely).
Hope this helps,
Andy.
I don't want to cloud up the boards but just thought I'd boast about my first tourney. I'm a beginner and entered a Hold'em Tourney when I was visiting Vegas. It was only a $25 buy-in for T250 with no re-buys. There were 29 players with money for 1-7. I placed 6th. I played solid poker throughout and was happy with my performance.
J.
excellent work "J" ...where was this victory realized...
I`m heading to vegas saturday myself for my first tourney and absolutely aspiring to finish well..
keep making the... best of decisions....
jg
It was at the Luxor. They have noon tourneys daily, you'll need to sign up around 9:00am. They said it would cap at 20 people but there were 29 when I played. It was a lot of fun.
J.
Mazel Tov! Next time, win!
If you're a beginner how do you know you played solid poker? It's not likely. And, you could play even better poker in you next tourney and not even make the break! But I guess that's what's so fun about tourneys - anything can happen.
Congrats!
N
"If you're a beginner how do you know you played solid poker?"
Well, what I mean, is that the knowledge I do know from studying Lee Jones's book, Sklansky's and some others, I followed and kept my discipline throughout. Sure there's more to know, and sure I probably played the hands that I didn't know as well, not as good as I should have. But again, it was the information that I did know that I used solidly. From here I plan to work deeper in my poker play and study some more, and play some more. I did have a chance to play a 1-2 7cs game and made about $40 in 45 minutes but wouldn't chalk that up since most of the players were beginners but the best feeling I had was when I started reading tells from them, such as when they had to look at their cards repeatedly to see if they made the straight etc. I also jumped onto a 3-6 Holdem game and again made $40 but in 5 hours. Again, I'm not chalking this up as any great performance, it was just my first experiences in a cardroom rather than the kitchen table. I tried to play tight and aggressive and didn't do anything fancy (although my fancy moves are limited). So that's all I meant.
J.
Tournament pays five places, payoffs are (approx) 1400, 800, 500, 300, 150. about T17000 in play, I have a stack of ~3500. Blinds are 300-600.
On the button with JJ. Second to act (very solid player; probably the best in the tournament) opens with a complete raise all in. The small blind has about the same size stack as me and is very very tight. he is very reluctant to get involved, although it seems like I'm the only one who has noticed this. The BB is the big stack by a pretty good margin, but she is very loose and very passive. For some reason, she only came out betting on the flop or turn when her aces paired, and she always bet when her aces paired She is also (as I found out earlier, not willing to use/aware of the strategy of checking down a hand when another player is all in.
Do you raise, call or fold here?
I chose to raise, knowing that the SB would fold unless he held a monster, and that the BB would pay me off with anything. right play?
As it was, for that situation, it was the right play. The blinds acted as I expected them to, and the BB payed me off, bluffing at the end with a busted gutshot draw. The initial raiser spiked an ace on the turn, but since SB didn't bet there, I was pretty sure she didn't have one.
Happy ending: Split 1st and 2nd with the crazy woman. she had a 2.5:1 chip lead heads up with the blinds at 6-12, and I thought that, after a day at work staring at a computer screen, I was losing it and couldn't play good poker. Normally I would have taken her on, but, given the limits and my mental state, I was more than happy to take down a grand on a $75 buyin.
You don't mention how many players are left at the time this took place, which is typically an important piece of information.
However, you should probably raise here no matter how many are left, as you would like to either get heads-up with the all-in, or build a side pot to win from the loose player.
Also, even though she had a chip lead, did you split 1st and 2nd even-up? If so, given the number of chips in play and the size of the bets, that was a great deal no matter how much better you are than your opponent. In fact, any deal that gives you even a couple of bucks more than your pure mathematical equity at this point is probably a good deal, as there will be very little skill involved from this point forward.
The only time I would be less inclined to deal is when my opponent is way too tight, such that I know I can likely steal a lot of blinds. In such a spot, I could steal my way to victory. Against a loose opponent who will always call, it's just showdown poker, and you don't have enough chips to wait for a hand where you know you're a solid favorite. You have to play any hand where you're even a slight underdog (because the blind money will make it correct to play).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Fossil, thanks. Forgot to mention, but the move with the jacks was with six remaining. The split was not even money, but I did get a little more than my equitable share of the money. I had about four big bets at the time of the deal, and she had maybe 2.5-3 times that. Probably would have been a crap shoot on my part to go for it at that point.
One question, though. You mention that the only time to go for it would be if my opponent were too tight. In this case, we did play a few hands heads up and I stole about four pots in a row; she obviously did not know what she was doing heads up with a relatively small amount of chips in play. I knew that I could probably bet middle pair good kick for value when she did come along and steal when she did not flop anything. I realize that I would still have had a big hill to climb if I had gone on at that point, but I probably would have tried to win it all if I had been in a better mental state (I was tired out from writing on the computer at work all day). If I were fresh at that point, would going on have been a major mistake with my small stack, given that I thought I had a huge advantage over my opponent?
So, you've got 8 small bets, and she's got 20-24.
That would be a crapshoot, almost no matter what. You have about 26% of the chips, so I would accept any deal that gave me over 30% of the difference between first and second place money, no matter how bad my opponent played.
However, if she will let you steal a LOT, then you could say to hell with the variance, let's go for it. For example, after 4 steals in a row, the chip count would now be 11 to 19 instead of 8 to 22. However, it will only take a couple of bad flops, maybe only 1, to cripple or eliminate you, so you have to be willing to risk that.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
" (as I found out earlier, not willing to use/aware of the strategy of checking down a hand when another player is all in. "
Please explain the rationale for this play? I've heard of it but never really understood why it is advised.
What if there are three of you, one is all-in. You have paired both your cards on the flop and the board shows draw possibilities for a flush or straight. Are you going to let the other guy get free cards?
Basically a way of inching up the pay ladder. Usually not used when one person has a monster. Say, for example that I have pocket tens, my live opponent has A-6 and the all in has AK. If the flop comes J-9-6 and I bet, the live opponent may muck, thereby increasing my chances of winning the pot. However, sometimes you want the other guy out more than you want to win the pot. In this case, it doesn't hurt too much to give the other guy a free ride in order to take a couple of the all in's outs away.
Thank you for the explanation. But it seems to me to be cutting off your nose to spite your face! Putting players out is important, but no where near as important as protecting my own stack. If you soft play the live one and he does draw out, then you've lost chips AND allowed him to collect the last chips from the all-in player, which he'll use against you.
One time in a tourney I had AK and was badly in need of chips. The fellow to my right put the BB all-in with a modest raise. I only called but it took most of my chips. So it was him, me and the all-in BB.
It turned out the BB sucked out and the other live player also had AK! He turned to me and said 'Why did you give him protection?' implying that I should have folded preflop!
His comment baffled me and I don't know why he really said it but it had to do with trying to eliminte the all-in. To hell with that. I needed the chips!
"say .. my live opponent has A6". This isn't the best way to think about it. You don't know what he has. There is very little possibility that he will fold a better hand than tens, and only a moderate chance he will call with a hand so bad that you still want him in. But when he folds, you don't gain anywhere near as much as you would by taking down a heads-up pot. The better the all-in's hand is, the less you gain from your opponent's fold. You do have to tighten up on bets for value when someone is all-in and the live side-pot is small.
Andy.
People often get confused by this. When a player is all-in and there is a small side-pot or no side-pot at all, a good player will not bluff and will not make marginal bets for value. He knows he will only get called by a better hand, and that if his live opponent folds, the benefit is small because he still has to beat the all-in player for most of the pot.
But a lot of people just want to check and check and try to knock the all-in out even when they are so far away from the money that the benefit to them is negligible. Some people are also angle-shooting when they complain about a bet because they play drawing hands in this kind of spot and want to get free cards. They don't check when the flush comes in, just wait.
The bottom line is that if you have a made hand and you think your opponent is drawing then you should normally bet. The more confident you are that you have the all-in player beat, the more you should play it like a "normal" pot. The larger the side-pot, the more you should play it like a "normal" pot. But if the side-pot is small and/or the all-in player is strong (maybe has a strong board in stud) that should point you more towards checking.
It's not easy and is sometimes counter-intuitive but just think about what a bet is trying to achieve. Ignore fuzzy thinkers who complain. Thanks to Greg for explaining a lot of this to me, you might find the post in the archives somewhere (a couple of months ago ?)
Andy.
One table, $35 per player for T200. Second round, blinds are T10-T20. I haven't really been involved in a hand yet, I've got around T160 due to blinds. I'm in the 6 seat and we've already lost 2 players, so we're 8 handed. The 9 seat is a VERY aggressive player. Goes all in every third hand, calls raises with any ace, and he's overwhelming chip leader right now. He's one off the button and I'm in mid position. Folded around to me, I've got 33. I shove all in, he calls with ATo. Run the board: 99A62. I'm out.
Bad move?
Yes.
Why bet 160 to win 30? If your pair was larger, then you could hope to get called by Ax where x was smaller than your pair, making you a solid favorite. But with 33, you know that anyone who plays has 2 overcards, making you only a very slight favorite (and possibly a slight dog against a hand like JTs, and possibly a big dog if they find a larger pair).
Just limp with the 33 if you think that others will limp along, and that it is unlikely you will be raised. Otherwise, fold and wait for a better opportunity.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You know if he lims this guy is gonna raise him - he is most likely fav here and why not go for the $30 a limp is gonna be challenged anyway.
NO! You have to take this guy on eventually and the peir was almost good eneough. You were a slight fav and a must move at this time.
Hey... You pays your money... you takes your chances. Unbeknownst to you he had A-T, you're hoping for the 30 and you got caught... thats why only one person wins a satellite... 9 lose. Better luck next time. Play good flops.
BETTER TO TAKE YOUR TIME IN THE EARLY GOING SEE WHAT THE TABLE IS TELLING YOU THEN WHEN THE SITUATION ARISES WHERE YOU ARE THE FAVORITE PLAY BACK AND SLOWLY MANEUVER YOURSELF INTO A POSITION TO OVERTAKE THE CHIP LEADER AND WIN :) PATIENCE=SUCESS
PUNCTUATION PLUS LOWER CASE = Easier to read :-)
Andy.
Our casino starts the final table in a real money tourney this way: All players that make the final table are given the same amount of real money in chips to begin the final leg of the tourney which now becomes no limit. The money, which comes from the buy-ins and rebuys, is evenly divided among the players. Any amount left over after the money is divided is placed into the pot to be taken by the first hand won.
Question: Is this common practice for a real money tourney?
I think it is a poor practive and would prefer to see the money split among perhaps the first two or three pots. Why give so much of a kick to the first pot winner which is after all too much a factor of luck?
Nick, this sounds odd to me. I think the added money would encourage loose play which, generally, begets more loose play. Especially if the added money is large in proportion to the stack size. Kind of sounds like they want this tourney over quickly, and your butts in live games sooner.
The odd chips in the first pot don't bother me, because I would guess that they are few in number, and don't make that big of a difference.
However, I think that tourneys where everyone who survives to a certain point get the same reward can be troublesome. While they are fine if everyone plays fairly, they are prone to cheating problems. Imagine you've got 30% of the chips when down to the bubble. What could we do if you and your short-stacked friend play a hand in a manner designed to give him some chips? In many ways, it's costing you nothing, because losing some of your stack will still allow you to easily get into the money, while it may readily allow your friend to make the money instead of some third guy who is also short-stacked.
But, if honesty of the participants isn't a concern, then this format heavily favors the more aware player. This format is similar in many ways to the super-satellites they play at the WSOP, where the final "n" players each win a 10K seat in the main event. If they're giving away 6 seats during your event, then 1st and 6th place pay the same, and all that counts is surviving to that point. It is amazing how often a loose, aggressive player will build a chip stack that is so big he can coast into the payoff, but instead continues to play like a maniac and loses. Last year some guy came to the final table of 9 with a commanding chip lead, they were awarding 8 seats, and he was the one player who didn't win a seat. He literally could have walked away and let them take the blinds from his stack, and someone else would have gone broke before he did. Instead, he kept playing every other hand, and kept doubling people up until he went broke instead.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hey now! That might have been me yer talkin' about and if you are what really happened was I had enough chips to coast in to a seat and didn't realize it, never having gotten that far before. The only hand I played was pocket aces and got them beaten by an all in player. I did get $5,500 and well it was because I couldn't have played in the event because of a family reunion I was really committed to being at. (oops that was two years ago) Anyway... F.Y.I.
The guy I read about was playing most of his hands, and playing them aggressively. He had been getting very lucky, and won a ton of chips. Once they started the final table, he started getting unlucky, and instead of busting someone else out, he broke himself.
He certainly wasn't limiting his play to AA by what I read.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I don't think it's good practice at all. And that's not because of the first pot practices. When you add real money into a tournament setting, you add all sorts of problems. What's to stop someone from adding some of their own chips onto their stack to become chip leader? More importantly, what's to stop someone from taking chips off their stack to ensure themselves a nice payday?
Finally, everyone starts out evenly? So your goal coming into the final table isn't to become the chip leader, it's to just make it to the final table. You can get in with one chip and suddenly you're dead even with the previous chip leader? That sounds fair...
Dan
Coming to the final table sounds fair when you are the one with only one chip!
Good points made by you and anther poster about collusion or cheating possibilities. I think the chip slipping possibilities are limited though since the penalty for being spotted (by any one of ten pairs of eyes) is great. Just ask Pat Fleming.
The last time I made the final table they distributed $170 to each player and had $45 left over and it was put in the first pot. This is way too lopsided. They should have given everyone an extra chip and just taken the tenth chip out of the first pot to compensate the house!
Daniel;
I, like many others, am very glad to see you here. Hopefully we'll glean from your posts some tips on how you do as well as you have in tournaments. Perhaps I can put the question directly to you now and save us all a lot of digging!
I've played a lot of tourney's in the last year (nothing major) and am struck by how random the results are. There are always a lot of bad plays made by bad players, but in the end it is difficult to observe that the better players are prevailing with any regularity. It just seems like anybody can win (well, almost anybody).
When I read about big plays in big tourneys by great players, the play of the hand does not really look much different from the plays I see here in home town. Even with post-play explanation by the players it seems to be the same old thing - who hits and who doesn't. There is also the frequent comment that the winner of a big tourney had an unusual good run of cards (e.g. when David Chui (sp?) won the TOC. This seems to be another universal truth.
How do you do it?
Thanks - Nick
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
More like 1% would make that laydown. I think it says more for his opponent who must have given off some tell. Without a tell it was a weak play.
My vote is for a tell.
Come on guys. Knowing how Louis A. plays it was fairly obvious that the only hand that he would come back at David with at that stage of the tournament was pocket aces. If you've played with him much he is a very solid, thoughtful player and does not risk money without being pretty sure he has the best of it. David knew exactly what was going on and what is interesting is the fact that he showed his hand. It has been talked about a bunch though, hasn't it?
I doubt very much that it was a tell. The way the hand played out it appeared obvious what Louis had to have. There was an UTG limper, then David raised. In the SB Louis moved in, then made another error by showing his hand. Moving in, and showing it, was enough to ensure that Louis couldn't possibly win the tournament. Louis also moved much too quickly, this is what he could have done: First of all take some time! Then he should channel his energy to studying the UTG player(Lynn Baur). He should make it look like he is afraid of that hand. It's often very scary in NLH when a player limps in UTG. Louis should be trying to sell the fact that he has either J-J, Q-Q, or A-K. Then he should raise, but not all in!! He should give David the chance to move in instead. David raised it 70,000, Louis could re-raise another 200,000 or so, and David just might move in. He really blew his chance, and that's not to take anything away from David Chui, he is a monster player.
DN "Louis also moved much too quickly"
If this ain't a tell WHAT IS.
Like I said (and not a slam on Louis who I have played with he is a very nice guy and pleasure to play with) the BIG lay down says David Chui is a good reader of players and Louis gave him something to read.
How do I do it? Hmmm...that's a pretty broad question, perhaps you could narrow it down a little bit. There wouldn't be enough room here to post a full response:-)
Here's a specific question. Do you agree with TJ that tournament poker is tournament poker and that the specific game doesn't matter much? I take this to mean that general poker concepts (position, etc.) and specific tourney concepts (stack size maneuvering, etc.) are more important than stuff like starting hand req's.
Phil Hellmuth is pretty much the only "top" tourney player who seems 'limited' in what he can win at (albeit they're usually the biggest payouts) while TJ, Bonetti, Miami John, etc. all have won at eveything, though they certainly have their 'best' games.
..he just won the $5K Stud for his 3rd bracelet and, from what I saw, he's been doing well in the $400-800 H.O.R.S.E. game for over a week now.
$320 NLHE satellite. Six handed, 12K chips in play 100-200 blinds(going up to 200-400 next hand). I'm in the SB with 1700 after the post. Alex Brenes, with 1800, makes it 700 to go, his third straight raise; he won the other two uncontested.
Next to act has only 4-500, folds; cut-off w/~2K folds; button w/~4K folds; BB w/~3K folds.
My wonderful play? I've got him on a steal all the way, so, with AJo, I raise... Not all in, mind you, but only another 500. Sigh... Alex thinks for a bit, then raises all in with AKo. He doesn't at all like the Q-9-8-3-8 board, but I've got the only remotely possible hand he can beat.
I think he might've folded to an all in raise (another 1200), esp. because of my table image; the only hand I'd shown was when I re-raised on the button w/AA, and I'd been pretty tight other than that. Of course, with the blinds going up he probably would've very reluctantly called. Folding was definitely correct, but the small raise was even worse than a call would've been; as I would've won going all in on any flop w/ no A or K(esp. that flop), assuming I had him on a semi-steal.
One of my greatest weaknesses is that I put people, esp. well known players, on steals too much; esp. when it gets shorthanded-highblinded in a tourney or satellite.
I used to let myself get blinded away too much, now I seem to have overcompensated too much. Please fire away, everybody.
..check out how Hellmuth and TJ eliminated themselves at the $2500 PLO and $3000 PLHE, respectively, at Andy Glazer's site, poker.casino.com.
TJ going all in against the chip leader with an overcard and a flush draw; sounds almost, um, McBridian, doesn't it? (Don't get me wrong, I like TJ's NLHE & PLO books; good to mix 'em w/Ciaffone's though, IMO)
Incidentally, I had the pleasure of meeting and talking with at some length AG at the WSOP, and he is a very nice man. Same goes for Padraig Parkinson and Noel Furlong, as well.
Here's a little tip you NEED to think about. He stole won pot, no contest. Then another, no contest. He is a good player and realizes that he won't be able to get away with that all day, the third straight raise should set off alarm bells in your head, that's a hand! After stealing two straight pots, it's much more likely that the third one is a big hand. Also, rest assured, he wouldn't have thrown away the A-K after investing 700. Once you raised 500, there is 2600 in the pot and you'd only have 500 left. I can't think of many flops that Alex would throw his hand away with over 6 to 1 odds. If you moved in? Same result.
Let's suppose I would have just called Alex's raise (a horrible play, I definitely should've folded). The pot would've been T1600 (700 from each of us and the 200 BB). Alex has AKo and T800. A seemingly tight amateur goes all in for T700 when the flop comes Q-9-8 rainbow. He's probably still going to call(hoping I have JJ or TT), as he has to post the new T400 BB next hand, but boy, what a terrible flop for AK. I just read where TJ calls Q-9-x the "death flop" for AK.
Do you think he (or yourself) would fold in this situation to an all-in pot size bet that almost covers you?
Final table of a NL holdem tourney. 6 players remain. I have 2nd stack of about T20,000. The blinds are 500/1000. Last 4 will be paid.
I am BB. A short stack player on the button is first one in. He only has 2000 in chips and goes all-in. The SB (also very short stack) folds and so it's up to me to try to put this guy out. I know I'm going to try with just about any hand. I look and see . . . 63o, yuk! I fold rather than call him for another 1000.
I really caught the wrath of the other players (friendly game). Especially when after another ten hands this guy had the biggest stack!
Should I have called him with 63o ? ?
You're getting 3.5:1 on the call, and unless he has an overpair, you are not that much of a dog. In fact, if he has a very good hand like AK, you're only about a 3:2 dog, much closer than 3.5:1. As such, unless you think he would need a big pair to make this raise (and he shouldn't need anywhere near that much), you should call without even bothering to look at your hand. The fact that another 1K doesn't damage your stack at all makes calling even more important.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You have the obligation to call with the 63o in this situation. First of all, because you're getting o.k. odds on your call. Second of all, you have a chance to take someone out of the tournament. Thirdly, since you're the last to act, your downside is already predetermined. You know you for sure that you no longer have to put additional money in. Finally, the button player probably doesn't have that much anyway.
In this situation you didn't really need to look at your hand. Even if you aren't getting the right price, the value of knocking the player out outweighs what you are giving up pre-flop.
Well I'll be damned. It seems unanimous. I'll try it your way next time.
But I have to question the paradigm thinking that knocking out the low chip guy is ALWAYS beneficial. That will be another thread. Stay tuned.
Funny yesterday I was in the other guys place with $1000 - AJ I go all in bb a big stack didn't even look he called me with a 74 - I spike an A on the flop and he gets running 7 4 for 2 pair and beats my A with J kicker.
I think you have a no brainer you have to call he is in trouble and may have any kind of hand just better than random.
Now you have to deal with a guy who has $4500.
Some successful tourney players have a philosophy of going for first place - not caring about slowly moving up the payoff shedule once they're in the money. Other equally successful tourney players have the philosophy of moving up rung by rung - caring more about making incremental money as opposed to going for broke for the title. What are the pros and cons of either of these philosophies? What guidelines can I use to implement either of these philosophies optimally? Which philosophy would result in bigger success in the long run?
Depends on the style of play that suits you best. The best tournament players in the world are those that can ram and jam AND read other players well. Hence the best tournament players in the world are guys like Doyle, Unger, Seed, etc. Don't let books fool you either. Guys like TJ raise often with absolute crap. There is certainly a huge value to aggressive play in tournaments. That said, most players that play this style are not very good at reading players and as a result they get known as chip burners. They either finish first, or finish far out of the money. Not that the first category of players make a lot of money, usually enough to play on their own. The second category of fast players are not profitable players. They are usually backed in tournaments. They can get backing because they are perceived as gamblers who have won before.
Players who play more conservatively tend to finish in the money more often, but do not win first as often. I believe this is the more profitable way for most normal mortals to play. Still, you need the ability to be very aggressive when you do play or when tables get short handed. You also need to be able to read the other players well.
Also one final note. All those guys in the first category, even the chip burners, are tremendous characters. These guys are good at get into other players heads.
So you should pick the style of play that suits your personality best. If you are extrodinarily talented, you should play fast and aggressive and you will quickly become one of the best players in the world. If you are more like the rest of us, you should take a tight aggressive attitude towards tournaments.
Stern
Because the payout structure is very top heavy, I have to believe that playes who accumulate a lot of chips and finsih in the 1-2-3 spots more often, profit more than the conservative players in the long run. The conservative players will win a lot of last longer bets, but they can't do as well financially in the tournaments. As far as your style goes, you should let your table compostiion and chip position decide that for you. Go against the grain, whatever that may be. If you have a table full of maniacs, you'd be better off waiting for them to burn out, or until you get the right situation. Conversely, if nobody wants to defend their blind, then they BELONG to you! Go get em'! Also, if you are short stack you are limited to conservative play. If you have a large stack, you should stay aggresive, but back off if the table resists you too much.
So the idea is, if you're conservative (like myself), you make last longer bets against maniacs? Sounds like a good way to hedge against the buy-in.
Heh, heh, heh. Make lots of last longer bets with Hon Le. Make none with John Inashima.
Shifting gears and adapting to different situations and table personalities is a real key to tournament success. I can remember when a table change usually meant disaster for me cuz I wasn't adjusting quick eneough to the new table - so adapting quickly and playing semi-tight aggressive poker is my idea of the right way to both accumulate chips and last long eneough to have a chance at it all.
Small NL holdem tourney, final 4 players. Top 3 positions paid: $780 for first, $390 for second, and $130 for third. My image is a tough player and I think I am the best and most experienced one at the table, but I am the short stack (suck-out 2 hands before). They are trying to act confident but are not really confident inside and are afraid to make a mistake and lose out on the money. One more thing, I hate making deals.
I am on the button with 14k, SB has 35k, BB has 20k and UTG has 40k. The three of them start talking deal. I don't participate in the discussion and most people know I don't make deals. Eventually they offer $450 for the two big stacks and $200 for myself and the other player. I can outplay them, but I only have 3 hands to hit something and I wont bluff anyone out. It's late. They are offering me more than I could make if I outlasted the other short stack and took the normal 3rd place. So, ok, I took it. Since I don't make deals, I dont really know how to calculate a fair deal. But this seemed like it was too good to pass up. So, was it a fair deal, a good deal, or a great deal?
Fenistar
Oh, one other thing, the blinds were 4-8k at the time.
Fenistar
There is a great article on this on either pokerpages.com or pokersearch.com. You were correct to take the deal as you were extremely likely to bust in the next few hands. Even if you double through you still are mediocre in chips. Actually, the other players are kind of wusses for offering you anything I think since 2nd at $390 is not much less than the $455 they got and they are odds on favorites to finish first and second against stacks 1/2 theirs.
Fenistar,
Mathematically $200 is almost exactly what your position is worth. Prizes 780, 390, 130, 0 the true mathematical equities are as follows :
14K (you) is worth $196 ; 35K is worth $401 ; 20K is worth $267 ; 40K is worth $436.
This is a break-even deal for you, a good deal for the two chip leaders and a bad one for the 20K stack. Your stack may be worth a little more in practice because you are on the button and (if your read is correct) you are a better player than your opponents.
Most people would, like yourself and sternroolz, intuitively think that the deal is good for you and bad for the chip leaders, but this isn't the case. Things can change quickly and the chances of the two leaders finishing 1-2 are less than you think.
Finally, how did I calculate this ? Basically using the mathematical formulae described by Mason in Gambling Theory & Other Topics. But I have coded these formulae into a small program which is available for free from my website www.pokersoft.co.uk . If you are interested, please take a look, download it from the "Freeware" page and let me know what you think.
Mason, please let me know if you'd rather I didn't plug my site like this. In my defence, the original poster specifically asked how to calculate this and I'm offering something for free to help him (and others) do it.
Cheers,
Andy.
As my econ prof was fond of saying if parties make a deal and all agree then everyong got a "deal".
What I suggest in these situations is a save of say $150 and play for the rest. That would have taken 600 out of the pool and leave $700 to play for.
It is a bit more than 3rd and only $50 less than they are offering. So as a small stack you are in almost the same shape with a chance to win more than the offer on the table.
You are only 1 double through away from being 2nd place in chip count (assuming you get the chips from the 2 bigger stacks) 2 doubles from chip lead. I like your chances assuming you are the one capable of the blind steals and playing the best short handed.
If they turn down the $150 thing then I may go for the $200.
Rounder is correct in that it doesn't do any harm to ask, but if I am one of the chip leaders I say no very firmly. You'd be asking me to dip my hand into my pocket and _give_ you money.
Andy.
They already did that with the offer they made.
No, only the 20K stack.
Thank you all for those very helpful and very insightful responses. At the time I made the deal, it seemed too good to pass up ... more money than 3rd place would naturally pay and I was in 4th place. But as I drove home and thought about it, I started liking it less and less. You all confirmed for me the conclusion I was slowly coming to -- it wasn't a terrible deal but I really should have passed on it. I have never made a deal that I didn't end up regretting after I thought about it, which is why I stopped making deals. Guess this just reaffirms my no-deal policy.
Fenistar
As Andy pointed out, the deal is pretty close to break-even for you, so the only benefit of the deal is that it reduces variance.
However, the fact that you are a better player than these guys isn't worth much when the blinds are 4-8 and you only have 14 in chips. Whether or not you pick up a big hand on the button here, who's gonna fold for 6 more chips? If they will, then there's your reason to nix the deal, not because you're better. Maybe if you win one of the next 2 hands, then you'll have a little room to exercise your better skills, but otherwise, it's gonna be pretty much a crapshoot.
If the variance doesn't bother you, then maybe you can play to win the next hand you select, then push for a deal that's better than break-even for your new chip count.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I agree. I appeal to responsible posters who want the forum to stay as good as it is not to post under more than one name, and particularly not to pretend to be other people, even if they mean it as a joke.
Andy.
Whoever posted this, it's really out of line. If it's Daniel who did it, it's damn funny, but still out of line.
In a previous thread (Knocking Players Out) Ray Zee made an excellent post where he cited reasons why you may not want another player knocked out for reasons that are related to the skill of the particular player. I wonder if this may generally be the case when you are chip leader at the final table.
Certainly low chip players are glad when a player gets knocked out. They are then one step closer to money. But if it's good for the chip trailers, how can it also be good for the chip leader?
If your goal is to finish first and not just someplace in the money, you may be better off allowing low chip players to remain. Or at least this may affect your decision to call a low chip all-in player when you have a weak hand.
Some thoughts:
When a low chip player gets eliminated and his chips go to one of your competitors, those chips may now be more of a threat to you than before.
A low chip opponent may be more of a threat to other low chip players than they are to you. Let them bash each other up.
If you are second or third stack in a five-places-paid tourney, are you closer to or farther from finishing first when a player is eliminated by one of your large stack opponents?
I'm inclined to think if another player is eliminated by you, it is beneficial to you. If he's eliminated by anybody else, it is not in your best interest, mathematically speaking and all considerations of player ability aside. Obviously if he's a real tough player you are glad to see him go regardless.
Nick,
It's good that you're trying to think about this in the right way and that you're not prepared to accept what is "commonly" believed.
All the same, from a mathematical point of view, when a low stack is eliminated, it is the low stack himself who is the big loser. A small stack is worth more than the face value of his chips, to a larger extent than most people think. You saw that with your previous post where you let a player off the hook with 1K and he turned it into a big stack very quickly.
Another point is that, even if you'd rather player B did not knock out player C, how are you going to stop it from happening when you have the usual J6 type of hand ? There isn't much point worrying about something you can't control.
Keep thinking, and good luck.
Andy.
PS I read all the posts on this forum but can't remember the post by Ray you're talking about and can't find the thread. Can you give me a date ? Was it on another Forum ?
Thanks,
Andy.
This forum, Ray Zee posted in 'Knocking Players Out'
Do a search on 'Knocking' He was not the primary poster, he responded to someone who asked about a new rule against soft play in a tourney.
What are you suggesting - slow playing the table???
Get cute here and you'll be the next player out.
If you can eliminate someone DO IT. You are looking at the wrong strategy here. Sure there are people you want out and others you would rather have in. But thinking you can control the situation is pure folly.
No slow play. Of course taking any player out is always the best action if you can do it. This post stems from an earlier thread where it was discussed whether or not you should try to take a low chip all-in player out even if you have rotten cards.
In a recent tourney a low chip player looked at me when I had a big stack like I was responsible for trying to take out a third player. But HE was not willing to risk his short stack to do it.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I don't understand. Why would you not want someone to go broke if you are chip leader?
Sometimes you find yourself in a wonderful situation, where you are 1 or 2 players away from the money, and pretty much everybody is playing super tight to make sure that they don't get eliminated without first making some money. When you are a chip leader (and maybe even if you're not), you can often steal the blinds almost every hand dealt, and no one will play back at you, even though they know what you're doing. Simply put, they're more worried about going broke than they are about stopping your thievery, and so will let you steal with impunity. In these situations, what you would really like is for everyone to stay alive while bleeding you more and more chips. Hopefully, by the time someone is eliminated, you will have a monster stack, maybe even more than half the total chips in play.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
That's when I'm usually the one who "decides to do something about it" and take my KJs against the "stealer's" AA;-)
Ive played in 5 tourneys this week and gone out in 5th, 17th, 19th, 19th in four of them. The other one I got knocked out early. I seem to last a long time in almost every tourney I play in, but I cant seem to get a roll going on the end and win some money.
I try to get more aggressive on the end especially when its close to the money spots because so many players tighten up. The problem is I only seem to get action when I am up against a better hand and I end up going all in because if I dont call my opponents raise, I will be almost out of chips. I have been making this call even when I am almost certain I am beat.
Here are some examples:
We are down to 19 players and they pay 17.
I am in the BB with jacks, Blinds are 500/1000 and I have 4000 left(3k after posting BB). Early position raises, I ponder and decide to call figuring any hand this guy raised with he wont fold with. The flop comes A,x,x. I bet 1000 and get raised. I have 1000 left and there is 11,500 in the pot. Im pretty sure Im beat but will have to post a 500 small blind in the next hand, so I go ahead and call all in and end up losing to AK. Was this a bad play?
Another tourney at the Plaza that pays 2 places and Im down to 1400 and get K7 of hearts. 3 guys limp in to me so I go ahead and call 600. I figure if i hit, I may be back in the running. (whats the point of finishing below 2nd?) The player to my left goes all in for a 1000. The big blind, myself and everyone else calls. The flop comes K,7,x all spades. The first guy in bets 1000 and I throw in my last 400. He takes it with Q,10 of spades. (By the way, I tried to knock this guy out 3 times when he was low in chips and he caught everytime, first time I have 10/j hearts on the button and raise 1200, he goes all in for 500 more to me. Flop is Q,9,8. Turn is a Jack river is a blank. He turns over Q,10 for a split. Next time he reraises all in for 2k and I call with QQ, He has K7 of diamonds and wins when the turn brings a king, DAMN THIS GUY!)
How should I have played the above situations?
Anyway, I dont know how to win without good cards, what hands and situations do you suggest using to try to build your stacks while your waiting for good cards? It doesnt seem possible to win by simply waiting all day for great hands because that is what everyone else is doing. It seems to me you have to get more involved and then get lucky if you want to finsh high or in first. What Are your comments and suggestions?
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
yeah, i gotta say, K7h is not a hand that you can win without getting "hit", ESPECIALLY when you only have 1400 in front of you. the other mistake that i felt was huge was you should have raised ALL IN with the jacks. calling was just giving him a free chance to catch an ace-and with jacks you have three overcards that'll ruin you. so the call there was incorrect. i think you need to be more aggressive, it doesn't sound like you are-calling is not an aggessive move.
read doyle brunson's book. it's got good no limit advice in it
Reading between the lines, it looks like this was a limit event (since both the other player's preflop raise and Jeff's bet on the flop were the size of the big blind). In that case, going all-in preflop with JJ was not an option (unless the other player would have re-reraised).
correct, the JJ was in a limit tourney and the K7 of hearts was no limit. I wish someone would articulate why this play with the K7 was so bad, I was pretty much doomed in a matter of minutes anyway and I probably woulnd not have had the chance to increase my stack by 5x with any future hand. It seemed like a good place to gamble to me. Is this a bad call in limit? I will often call with this flush draw when I know I will ave four or more callers.
Dont you have to gamble eventually in no limit?
Thanks alot for everyones responses
Jeff,
The key point with the K7 is that, because you must win the hand to stay in the tournament, you want to make your stand against as few opponents as possible. With three limpers already and the blinds to come, up to 5 opponents are going to get a flop to beat you. Think in terms of the best situation rather than flat hand values.
Andy.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Thanks for your reply, I obviously have a lot to learn. I guess after what appeared to be good players making what appear to be similar plays, I was under the delusion that this was a good spot. I guess the key with no limit is being the aggressor and not a caller.
I watched Tony Ma play a single satalite with Annie Duke and Dan ??? and Noel Furlong. Tony was down to about 700 and doubled up when Annie Duke tried to knock him out. He won a few more hands by stealing and then raised on the button. Dan ??? pondered and finally reraised and put Tony all in. Tony turns over 7/9 and Dan ??? turns over AQ. The board came 4,5,x. Turn was a 3 and the river was a 6. Now tell me where the skill was in that play. Tony was totally lucky! There was absolutely no skill involved in how this hand turned out after Tony Ma was all in. Dan ??? made the better play and had correctly read Tony.
Two hands later Tony raises again on the button and Dan ???? ponders for a while and decides to go all in again. Dan ??? turns over A8 offsuit and Tony has A6 offsuit. The turn brought a 6 and Tony won. I have to say that Dan ??? made the better play once again but lost.
There sure seems to be a lot of luck involved wih no limit. I guess the key difference between Tonys play and mine was that I was a caller with a weak hand and Tony was the aggressor on a steal and had to commit to the hand with his last few chips and then got lucky.
Badger, are you saying you would never play K7 suited in no limit or you just wouldnt call with it? Thanks for your help, bear with me I dont have the experience you do.
I'm not Badger but I play one on TV. :-)
Guess the biggest problem here is the 5 way hand you are getting in to.
K7 is OK heads up or on a steal. But you are a real dog in a 5 way pot. You be better off with some connected suited in this 5 way.
Axs would be much better too.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Thanks, I like the way you articulate your ideas.
I think I'm catching on.
The philsophy when playing sub-par hands in no limit is to be against few or a sole opponent, be the aggressor and preferably in late position. Then, if you have to get lucky after making your move, your not happy, but its better than planning to get lucky going in, right?
What hands(s) would you have played late in the tourney against many opponents with a low stack with 3 callers and many players to act behind you? (i.e. the same situation in which I had K7)
Ps How are your doing in the Big One?
Good Luck!
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
So with the blinds coming in two hands at 300/600 its not worth taking a shot with k7 of hearts after 3 people have limped? The tourney only paid 1st and second, if I was to win and get back in the tourneyment I was going to have to get lucky, wasnt I? 6 people left and I was near the lowest stack count with an extreme uphill climb. Remember this tourney paid out the majority to 1st and only 150 to second place.
What happens if I get no cards over the next 5 hands and end up with only 500 after posting my blinds? It seems to me Im going to have to get even luckier. At least this way if I did get luucky, I was going to increase my stack by almost 5 times and be in a position to make a move or at the very least have enough chips to wait for better hands.
I guess regarding the jacks the best play is just to give up immediately and assume he has an ace when he bets after I check My reasoning for betting is that if he held a pair of kings, queens or lower he would have a hard time calling my bet Obviously I was wrong.
If I dont gamble at some point Ill end up being blinded away waiting all day for aces. IM confused I guess.
Thanks for your comments
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
It is impossible to win with out getting good cards in a tournament - you can help your self but you must get the run of the cards in your favor at some time in the tournament. Preferably near the end.
You are putting yourself in position to do well and it is just a matter of getting the right hands at the right time.
Hell I'm always in the teens looking for the hand to put me over the top some times it comes and some times it doesn't but I am there to get the cards when they come.
Keep giving your self a chance.
As for the hands you described. You eigther committ yourself before the flop with all your chips and put the guy to the decision or you fold when the over cards come like the JJ - with the AK example.
Just read this on rgp and was wondering if anyone had an explaination for why Tony Ma would make this play.
"early on, a player who i know plays quite tight comes in for the first time, raising to 700, (we started with 4000 in chips, blinds still 25/50, not much change yet). Tony Ma had called from early position, calls again. heads up. the flop is 832. the tight unknown goes all in, about 3100 or so. Tony calls. turn, blank. river, blank. the tight guy turns over AQs. Tony Ma turns over 43o. nice pot. "
The guy makes it clear that both players had about the same stack size. But I just cant see any logic behind this play. Ma has done so well over the last reading this really confused me. Does anyone have a plausible explaination for this?
Yes, since this was a satellite my guess is that he didn't care much and just wanted it overwith. If the hand woulda came up at a final table I'd share your curiosity though...
Mattias
Yeah, tricky players will often play some small cards early for deception heads up like Tony did. It is actually a very good play but you have to know what you are doing and you must know your opponent.
He apparently put the guy on a big A so his 3's were golden on the flop that contained cards the guy couldn't have possibily had.
He had a "read" on the guy and exploited it.
Plays like this seperate greats from the wanna bees
"Plays like this separate greats from the wanna bees". I don't buy this. If the original poster had been about Joe Schmoe from Idaho instead of Tony Ma, would you still say it was a great play ? He put 20% of his stack in with an absolute piece of garbage and got lucky IMO. I can't believe that a player with Tony's record was playing his A game at this point. I go with the poster who said he was just trying to get chips or get out.
Andy.
Andy,
With all due respect I have seen really good players pull this off and I have added it to my tournament strategy.
Now you don't do it with regularity only with certain players and the flop has to be perfect.
I did it last Wed night in a tournament - Had called under the gun with a 56 - very loose player called too blinds called - flop cane A56 - I checked loose player went all in blinds folded I called - and won her stack With 2 pair to her A8. It is kind of like playing a small pair if you don't smack the flop you muck.
And you are right if a smuck pulls this off it is no biggie cuz they are playing this tripe all the time I am talking of playing this in selected instances.
With what you have just said, that makes more sense. Kind of like how Doyle says you can playing the small connectors in No-Limit.
Andy.
Yeah - I play a lot of tournaments away from Arizona. (In Arizona you'll see this play with suited rags which they play all the time anyway.) I have seen several so called "name" players pull this one off "once" per table. Usually they will play it early maybe with a raise if the flop is right they can pop some unsuspecting guy.
Now this guy thinks he got a bad beat from some lucky guy.
Cheers.
I think that's absolute crap. Think about the situation for a little bit. Ma didn't just limp in, he called a raise for 700 more, almost 20% of his stack and 12x the bb. Even if he put the player of a big A with 100% certainty the play call would be wrong unless he knew for sure he could bluff the player out or catch him bluffing.
I don't see how you can compare two entirely different scenarios. Limping in with connectors may be ok but calling a huge raise isn't. Your example with the A56 has no relevance. Any two cards can flop two pair so heck why not call with any two cards? You also merely limped and weren't raised by a tight player. I agree with Andy's statement that you're calling this a great play simply because it's by a "great" player.
You are not grasping the play. Correctly I felt the same about it until I played several tournament in AL and Nevada last year - I have added it to my strategy and it works for me. I am a tight player and only play the smallish connectors when I feel the time is right. But not to recognize that it is a good move is short sighted.
Now I don't for one min. suggest you play the smallish connectors but if you pick your spots and have a good read on a player it can get you someones stack.
Maybe the call of the raise was a mistake BUT if the raiser gave up his hand by the size of the raise Tony could have put him on a big Ace - that is the perfect time to go after somone with the giant killers.
Don't try this unless you have big brass balls.
I have to agree I think your example is not the same Rounder. What happens if after calling the big raise a big card flops, say an Ace or a King? I think In this situation this play seems far too expensive\pointless to be used.
Big falls you get away from it or "represent" it.
If you try to represent what the other guy has, you've just knocked yourself out of the tournament with 43.
Andy.
exactly. If the money was a lot deeper I might limp with a hand like this every once in a while but I wouldn't call a raise. Also if any card above a ten flops its scary and there's no way you can call an all-in bet on the flop. Also I find it improbable that Ma knew this guy had Ace-big. Tight players make these big raises with pocket tens upto Kings b/c there scared of the dreaded ace being out there. S they make a big raise b4 the flop. If there called and a ace doesn't flop they move all-in. My point is that no part of this play was correct. Even limping in early postion. If you going to do this with trash like 43 only do it if its suited, and there is no way I'd commit 20% of my stack to it.
Tony must have learned this play from Mingh the "Master". I have seen Mingh make this play at two final tables calling with ~25% of his stack. Both times he was up against AK and the bullshit he played won.
Bruce
To me, It seemed like Tony Ma wanted to gamble to try to win a big pot. A lot players want to build a big stack early in a tournament and will risk busting out. Tony put his opponent on big cards (tight opponent in early position). He took a chance and got lucky. But, I'm sure he knew that if the flop came with big cards he would have had to fold.
I was playing in a local limit holdem tournament, well after the final rebuy, with an average stack. I'm in 6th position with A10o and there are 2 callers no raise in front of me, one a tournament regular who I've been at the final table with several times before and respect his play. Normally i raise or muck this hand, but i decided to limp in as well. 7th position and both blinds also come in. The flop comes 10c 7 5 rainbow. Its checked to me and I bet out, as i was hoping for just this type of flop. 7th position and sb both call. The turn brings a 4c. Checked to me and I bet again, 7th position folds and SB raises. I call putting him on 2pair or a club draw and praying for an ace. River comes an Ace, I bet and get raised again, so I call. He turns over 36o for the straight, and I feel like an idiot for not raising preflop or mucking all together. I was wondering what any of you successful tournament players would have done with this.
Doug
Your gut was right telling you to raise or fold here.
Every time I don't raise in this situation with a AJ or AT I seem to regret it. A big is a very vulnerable hand. Gotta clear out the smog if you can.
With two limpers, one being a solid player, your probably better off not playing the hand expecially since you have an average stack. A10 plays better headsup or with a small field. With a limper you can be against an AJ. A10 is a lousy hand with 5 way action.
Bruce
2 europeans, 1 unknown (Goldfarb type) and 3 pros.
Devilfish (UK), Beigler (Swiss) the Europeans and TJ to win it - he is so over due.
Well obviously lots of lucky punters got a bet in on Huck Seed as his odds have now been halfed from 100-1 to 50-1 !
I posted on RGP to this effect--my picks for the final table are Dave "Devilfish" Ulliott, David Chiu, Layne Flack, Howard Lederer, Johnny Chan and Huck Seed.
Regards,
Richard
I like Devilfish's chances too he is HOT and a Brit I picked for the final table. You have to many name US pros in your selections and only one or 2 will make it. But I like your thinking.
As much as I respect him, I'm not sure the DevilFish can play the way he does for 4 days straight and get away with it. In any case we all know it's any 6 from at least 50.
Andy.
I've been saying that it will come down to Phillip Ivey and Noel Furlong for almost three weeks now. Annie Duke or Kathy Liebert. Ulliott and another Euro(Julian Gardner? Surinder Sunar? Chris Bjorin?). And an ~unknown~ American amateur; maybe that guy Paul Evans who finished 2nd in the 3K NLHE. You'd also have to think that Miami John will get there one day.
$100 Buy in, two table, winner take all Tournament. Down to 7 players. Two players have relatively large stacks of $6-7K. The rest of us have stacks ranging from $1-3K. Play is very aggressive with a lot of raising from early/middle position. Blinds are $200/400 and due to go up again soon.
I am in BB with $1000 left after posting my blind. UTG makes it $800 to go. He has $1700 and has been talking about the need to make a move soon, One of the big stacks calls in late middle position after hesitating for brief period. I have 88. I called. Should I have folded or raised.
Flop comes 9s 5h 2s. What should I do? I chose to raise all in.
Thanks, Calvin
Briefly before I go down the pub (woo-hoo), I don't like 88 against more than one opponent. If you must play it then raise pre-flop and see 5 cards - unless you think your opponent(s) might fold to a bet on the flop but this is more difficult with 2 against you.
Andy.
This is a difficult hand to play.
I take it from one sentence above that the game is NL. If not, it actually won't change things all that much, since you'll be effectively all-in with any further betting or raising anyway. Also very important is whether or not the UTG player had 1700 before or after his raise to 800. I'll discuss both.
If you reraise all-in preflop, I don't think you lose anybody, since your reraise (600) is so small relative to the pot. Thus, you get to see the river, but must beat 2 opponents, which is difficult to do if they have 3 or 4 overcards between them. However, with 600 dead money from the blinds (including yours), folding probably isn't correct.
I think calling preflop is probably your best play here. If the flop contains an 8, then slowplay it to try and get money from both players. Unless the board is highly coordinated, then play it in a manner hoping to knock sombody out. If no set on the flop, then play the hand in a way that will hopefully knock somebody out. Be sure that you're looking at 1 or both players as the flop comes down, and try to gauge how they like it. If you think that somebody else will bet, let them, as they both have more leverage to knock the other guy out. However, you might consider doing something to enhance that affect, like grabbing your chips right after they bet, to show the potential caller that he has to beat you both for the main pot. Or you might even say "raise" or "call" out of turn, to again show that you're right in there.
If you think it will increase your chances of getting a fold, you should bet right out on the flop. This will put quite a bit of pressure on UTG, as he will have to call you while risking a raise from behind.
Of course, if there's an A on the flop, or you're otherwise confident that you're behind, you can fold also and save some money for the next hand.
If this were a percentage payback tourney, your best play would probably be to fold preflop.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Considering your stack size I would have called pre flop too. However, playing 8-8 against more than one opponent is not good. Going all in after the flop is a good play because chances are that both of your opponents have overcards , at this point you are probably still winning. This is a sticky situation but your stack size is too small to be too choosy ( especially if the blinds are about to go up ).
Limit HE tourney, no rebuys,blinds 100-200. Started with 3k, I now have T2900 in 7th position from button. Everyone folds to me, I have AJd, I raise. Button (solid, tricky) re-raises, small blind (solid) cold calls, I call. Flop comes Q,10,9 one diamond. SB bets out, I call, button raises, we both call. Turn 5d. So now I'm trapped, the pot is getting huge. SB checks, I check, button bets, we both call. River is Ac, I'm still trapped. SB bets, I call, button calls. I come in second to SB's 2 pair. My question: was this just a bad luck hand for me, or did I make some mistakes. The pot was huge and would have given me a good stack. I ended up with only T1100 left, I lost over half my stack.
I don't think you misplayed the hand. Good hand to steal with and you were in a good position to do so. Once the button reraises and SB calls, you have to call and hope to flop big.
The flop isn't terrible, but it isn't great. While you wouldn't put either player on KJ preflop, it may be possible, depending upon who they are. However, since you described both as solid, I wouldn't expect either of them to 3-bet or cold-call a 3-bet with KJ. Your straight draw is probably to a winner, though maybe for a tie, your backdoor flush draw is the nuts, and you have 1 overcard, though I don't put much faith in that.
The only alternative I would consider here is betting the turn. You've now picked up the flush draw, and have as many as 18 outs, though I only give you credit for about 14 effective outs. Still, if either player can be knocked off a legitimate hand, your bet may get you the pot. Also, if the button has AK, your bet here, if the SB folds, may let you steal on the river when a blank comes. If the button raises, it definitely increases the likelihood that the SB folds, and maybe gives you more outs on the river (e.g., button raises with KK, knockes SB off of AQ, AT, QJ, etc., and you now have 3 extra outs on the river).
There was also the possibility of folding the river, though that would rarely have been correct. Only if one of the players is a certified, card-carrying, rock, of the variety that never does any bluffing or thin value-betting on the river.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hard to get away from this hand. I think you played it OK. If anything I might just call here and dump the AJ on the raise by th blind - 90% of the time I play it like you did.
Greg and Rounder,
Thanks for the analysis. I am a first time poster, long time lurker. I respect the poker knowledge that each of you has shown through your posts and I continue to learn from you. I will post again in the future.
.
..
WOW I guessed between 475 to 500 this morning.
Another record - 5 mil 130K pool.
I was guessing about 450. However, I read the 513 on RGP, so it may be wrong.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Small NLHE freezout/tourney on mothers day. $15 buy in, 2 $15 rebuys. It is down to 5 of ten original players. At this point there is $325 in the pot with $300 going to first and the rest plus any more rebuys taken are going to second.
The blinds are 3k-6k. I am on the button with T18k chips. SB is tight/aggressive player I know very well with chip lead about T45k. BB is super tight player, all in for 4k. UTG goes all in for 5k. Next player calls 6k instantly, he has about 25k in chips. He has played virtually every hand including 3-6 o, Kx, Qx, pretty much anything and has been very lucky on a couple big pots.
After he calls I look down to see 10-9 of hearts. I look at the small blind and know he will not raise here even with AA. I decide to take a shot at eliminating two players and moving up so I call. Small blind calls.
Flop is 10d 9s 4c rainbow. First player checks, I stack off for 12k. SB mucks quickly, and the player that just checked calls. There is now three pots, one for 20k one for 5k and another for 29k, I'm in for all 3.
All hands are now shown. BB has A-5 off, UTG has 5-5, the player in for everything has 5-6 hearts. Needless to say, turn is 8d, river 7d. The 5-6 wins it all and splits the money with the chip leader, I get NOTHING.
I am not asking if I played bad post flop, I will make the same play every time with that hand in that situation, I am a huge favorite, but was it a mistake to get involved before the flop.
My reasoning was that if I missed the flop, I could get out and still have enough chips for a reasonable stand, but if I hit, I could eliminate 2 players and be even with the chip leader. Would it be better to let the others eliminate each other and hope to move up a couple spots, and maybe try and cut a deal for some money to third??? This hand has been bugging me since last night, any comments/criticisms appreciated.
Maybe 1/3 of your stack is too much to put in here with a marginal hand just to knock players out. Sit back and let them bash heads with each other. Once the flop comes, you have to bet it I think (though I would have checked one pair) and you just got unlucky.
Note also that in what is essentially a winner-take-all tournament, knocking other players out has very little significance. You have to get all the chips one way or the other - knocking people out to move up the ladder doesn't help.
Andy.
You took a gamble and lost - at some stage of every tournament you must gamble you did and lost THIS TIME.
Happens all the time.
As Andy pointed out, this is essentially a winner-take-all tourney, and therefore your goal at all times is to win chips, not to knock people out.
However, when it comes to how you should play this hand as a result of that fact, I disagree with Andy.
I think that your T9s is a worthwhile hand to play here, UNLESS you think that there is a reasonable chance that the SB or the lucky player will try to bluff you off the pot on the flop, turn, or river. Also, if they're going to bet it big on the flop with any pair or whatever, then you also should probably fold. In other words, if you think you'll very likely get to see the river without paying more, then your middle-suited-connectors have enough pot equity to play here. As it was, if lucky player hadn't gotten so ridiculously lucky postflop, you would have won a good pot, even if one of the all-in players had beaten you for the main pot(s) with a legitimate hand.
I think you played the hand perfectly, and got unlucky.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
In essence I agree. Depends on the game you play in. In the games I play in, I don't think it's likely enough that you will get a free ride to the river. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
Andy.
Read this on RGP this morning. I'm not sure where to find the "official" chip counts as it is not yet posted on the Pokerpages site.
Huck Seed- On the Rail Phil Hellmuth- 9k or so Kathy Leibert- Nearly 60k John Cernuto- 63k
Although it wasn't specifically noted, I guess John and Kathy must be near the chip lead.
Top 20 chip counts (though I don't know if they are totally official) available on www.poker.casino.com . According to this, Scotty Nguyen was another early casualty. Chip leader had 90K. No official list of who's in and who's out yet that I know of.
Andy.
..Ya gotta love Miami John w/63K, Kathy L w/57K, Berry Johnston w/55K, T.J. w/48K & David Chiu w/42K. Throw in James Van Alstyne w/89K and there's a final table for you. 282 gone already; after only ten hours. Wow. S'gonna be a bloodbath today, getting down to 45. I predict that: The chip leader after today will have ~750K; the leader after tomorrow will have 2KK+; and that at least two final tablers(inc. the winner), will come from the above six names.
Where did you get the complete info? Are you there live? If so, is a guy nomed Alex Gurevich still alive? He plays at my club and I gave him an outside shot to do some damage.
Thanks for any further information and updates.
I don't know of any complete info, but on the poker.casino.com website, Andy Glazer posted a rough "eyeball" count of the top 20 stacks. The list does not include any other names, nor does it guarantee accuracy.
I also am curious about the current status of quite a few people I know who entered.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
No sign of Alex. . .but Laird was still alive at around 11K at the beginning of day 2.
Found him. . .check out his table. No wonder he didn't make it.
Table 26 1, Ma, Tony Hieu 2, Johnston, Berry 3, Cozen, Glenn 4, Pham, David 5, Hori, Kent 6, Kaufman, David 7, Matusow, Mike 8, Pestal, Steve 9, Gurevich, Alex
For a brief moment in the $2000 plh event, I was at a table that included the following: David Pham, O'Neal Longson, Men the Master, Ken Flaton, Tony Ma, and JOHN HANLEY! Fortunately, the table broke quickly. But not before John sent O'Neal to the rail by making quad 8s on the turn. It was pretty funny.
Alex did finish in the money in the $5 k nlh event.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I'd like to know what's going on at the WSOP - there must be a "real time" site.
Nope.
I think the Andy Glazer/Phil Hellmuth site at Poker.casino.com has the most up-to-date information, but it is far from real time. The final table will be covered by web audio broadcast at the same site (and philmellmuth.com), but it will probably be jammed. I tried to get on for the WPO, but is was full for the most part. However, it is worthwhile to keep trying because you can slip in as others inevitably get knocked offline.
Good luck.
wsop day 1 results@ pokerpages.com
I checked out www.pokersearch.com to see if they had any more up to date information on WSOP chip counts, but they didn't. While I was there. I read the article "The Art of Deal Making" (click on "For the WSOP 2000 Click Here" first, then you should see it). It posits the "straight chip count" method as the "correct" method of calculating how much your chips are worth, which of course it isn't. I was astonished to see who their source of this "correct" information was. Take a look if you're interested.
Andy.
PS To see why the method is wrong, imagine if the chip leader has 99% of the chips.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
x
In calculating a deal they did not mention the blind position and size. If you are chip leader but are next to post the BB which is a large percent of your stack, obviously this should be taken into account.
I am three away form the button and have about 4 to 4500 in chips with a total of about 36,000 in play. We are nine handed at the last table. The blinds are 300/600.
I am about 2 to 3 seats from the BB and get AJ of spades. I bring it in for a 1200 raise. a gut 2 seats off the button goes all in for 2300 so I call 500. He turns over 77 and wins the pot when I dont get any help.
I seem to get in more trouble with this hand in virtually every type of limit or tourney I play in.
Did I make a mistake here? Should I abandone playing this AJ or AJ suited completely unless I am 1 to 2 seats from the Button and/or short handed? or defending my blinds against what I am fairly certain is a steal by a raiser in late position?
I think I'd play it the same. It isn't entirely clear from your post how many people are still to act but if it is 4 I'd probably think AJ is enough. Your raise is about the right size. You were 50-50 against the sevens - if you had found an Ace or a Jack, would you be posting the hand ? Don't beat yourself up too much over actual results.
One more thing, being suited doesn't count for much in this kind of spot where you will most probably be heads-up if anyone calls at all.
Andy.
I think your raise before the flop was too small. At this stage you raise about 3X the big blind which is almost half your stack of chips so I would move all in. This may force the pocket 7's to muck his hand although I doubt it. Anyway with AJs you are a small favorite on the flop. Unfortunately you lost.
Bruce
You are a slight under dog here 11/10 I think - Would you have played the hand offsuit - I think so - it is a good hand in the position you are in. Maybe you should go all in pre flop with it - hey you got beat with a decent hand not a big deal you wold have lost with AK AQ too I guess - Just the other day I lost a hand with AJ in a similar position and spiked an A on the flop. I went all in and BB who thought I was on a steal called (blind) he had 74 and got running 74 on turn and river. That's the game we play it sucks sometimes.
He thought he would stop your steal with a 74 and no pair yet?
Nick it was poorly written on my part I went all in with my small stack the BB called me blind with a much bigger stack. Sorry my bad.
How likely is it that you would win the blinds? Because with AJ in this spot, anyone who plays with you has a better hand 95% of the time (and the other 5%, they're a weak player). This being the case, you need to know that you're going to win the blinds pretty often to want to play this hand in early position (and it sounds like only 1 or 2 players folded, out of 9, before you acted).
If this were earlier in the tournament, when you were still pretty far out of the money, then you might justify playing this hand because the total odds, i.e., the chance that you win the blinds uncontested, plus the chance that you outflop or otherwise beat anyone who calls, minus the chance of you losing, could still add up to a slightly +EV situation. Now that you're in the money, where merely surviving another hand can make you more money, you should probably avoid what is at best a very slightly profitable situation.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Good point, There were 3 people to act after me(besides the blinds, so 5 total).
I was not in the money because they only paid 1st and 2nd place. The table was pretty tight and my image was fairly strong (I believe, given the hands I had shown)
Also, I wanted to go for the win not just a small return for 2nd place. I guess a pair would be a better hand to push, I just found the hand hard to fold, the blinds were coming and increasing quickly.
thanks for your advice
is there any TV coverage of the WSOP thanks/vano
What hands are favored when there is neither a lot of competitors nor few. I mean like maybe you have 4 opponents. From HEFAP, I understand why JJ is not a great hand to have here...what would be some good ones?
This especially pertains to the point in the tourney where you are at a table with 4-6 others and there might be a little more ante fighting than the first round...I have very little playing experience and I'm trying to figure some stuff out theoretically. thanks j
4 opponents is a lot in my book. A-High suited and big pairs in raised pots (whether or not you raise). A lot of hands like Axs, small pair if you can get in cheap. Can't be more specific unless you tell us whether it's limit or big-bet.
Andy.
Short handed table 6 or less JJ is a big hand. In NL tournaments you will be heads up a lot and a hand like JJ is real good in that situation. You will see Ax played with raises a lot here I don't like playing hands like QT in this postion.
JJ may suffer when 4 or so opponents take the flop with you, but it does not suffer when 4 or so opponents are dealt into the hand. With JJ and 5 at a table, you should most likely be raising preflop. When you win the blinds, fine. When they play with you, that's still fine, because you probably have the best hand.
Even at a full table, if you're only averaging 2 or 3 players seeing a flop, then JJ is still a good hand and should be raised. However, if you're the big blind and 4 or 5 have limped in, then you can consider not raising with JJ preflop, since you will not lose anybody, and there is such a good chance that an overcard will flop.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
200 buyin limit/nl at final table tourney. Down to 2 tables from 6 starting. 10 places paid, 10th pays 200, 9th 250, 8th 365. Lets presume I'm at a table with 6 players and the blinds are 200-400. The other table has 5 players. We are playing hand for hand. I'm on the button with 800 in chips. What should my strategy be? If everyone folds to me, what hands should I be willing to raise with, if any? Since I can stand another 10 hands or so, should I not play any hands at all? What if my chip position was 600 or less? Assume that there is no one at my table with less than 1500 in chips.
IMHO, and i do mean humble...i DON'T think you're gonna buy any pots, your stack is too small. personally, unless the two to your right are really tight, i'd wait for a hand. that way, maybe somebody else will drop out before the blinds reach you again. survival would be my main goal, unless you get a sweet chance to double up... j
You need to decide if you want to win or merely get your $200 back. You have the smallest stack at your table. You didn't say anything about the smallest stack at the other table. Unless two larger stacks knock one another out you probably will have to play a hand. If you pick up a real hand or if you are in a situation where you think everybody will fold play aggressively. Sitting and doing nothing is a bad strategy. Even if you manage to finish in the top 10 spots you won't have any chips.
Bruce
My thinking would be that with any raise I make, it is worthwhile for the bb to call regardless of what he has since he's getting 3.5 to 1 to call. Considering that, there aren't many hands that are huge favorites to win vs a random hand. By waiting 10 hands the chances of someone getting knocked out at the other table are pretty high. Of course I think I would play premium hands but why risk elimination with a marginal hand (AJ or something like that) when waiting may be enough?
I have been in this situation many times - you have to understand you are not gonna win any uncontested pots unless someone makes a big mistake - IF you have an ultra tight player at your table a move when he is in the BB might be advisable then you have a decent hand.
If you are on the button with a pair, Ax or K9 type of hand. It might be a time to get at the blinds which are random hands. Otherwise wait for a decent hand not impossible to win 3 or 4 hands in a row here and become chip leader by the end of the round. As long as you have a chip in a NL game you are in it don't squander any chips here. Keep your cool and you might make some money.
Help me with a hand I've got a few questions on.
Tonight I played in a fun fun tournament. It was like being in suspended animation. I played conservatively and I played solidly. Great attributes, I suppose. That alone kept me in the tournament as long as I did but I couldn't actually go anywhere. I was just floating along, waiting for the tsunami. Either I drown or I grab my surfboard and ride it to victory.
T500 to start with at 10-20 level. I'm now at the 200-400 level (no antes) and I've got a whopping T600. The highest my chip count has been is T950. There's about 17 people left and it pays the top 6. 8 at my table.
I'm in mid position. Lady to my right limps. She's fairly loose and she has the same chip count as me. Come to think of it, everyone at the table, with the exception of one guy who just joined our table and has chips coming out his wazoo, is in chip trouble. Anyway, I put her on two high cards, not necessarily suited. I see 8-8 in my hand. Table itself has been fairly tight. A number of hands so far at this level have just been the blinds playing each other.
I raised, hoping to get it heads up. I'm a slight favorite against her anyway. I think raising here is the best option because I'm not looking for other callers to give me odds for hitting a set, I'm looking to beat her with my eights. Fold to the button who calls, blinds fold and lady calls. Button is also a player who just joined the table so I have no read on her at all, and she also has only t600 to start with. So all three of us are seeing the flop with t200 to our names and 1500 in the pot.
Flop come AKK. That's just an obscenely bad flop for me. Lady bets all-in and it's now to me. I'm sure I'm beat. I think she's got an ace and now I've got to hit an 8 on my next two cards. I'm sure an 8 will win because she did not flop a full house.
Knowing that I'm probably beat, do I risk my last 200 to try and hit my 8? Or do I fold this loser and play a maximum of 3 more hands before being blinded out?
Dan
Small pocket pairs play best headsup so with a limper you are probably going to get multiway action so the likelyhood of winning is small. I would pass on the hand unless I felt strongly that I would see the flop headsup and then of course I would raise. With the flop when bet into, if you were going to bet if checked call, otherwise pass. With a player behind you to act you are most likely beat and I think you should quit. If you were in a headsup situation I think a call is mandatory.
Bruce
Ģ10 ($15) Pot-limit HoldEm/Omaha round of each. First Omaha tournament for me, learning couldn't really come much cheaper !
Final table, 7 players left, blinds 500-500 off the button, I have about 7K, 70K in play. Omaha. I'm in the second blind with some absolute junk but there's only 1 caller so we get a free flop. Flop comes T32 two hearts, I have T3 in hand. Checked by first blind, I check as this looks a bit crap. Loose player, likes to take small shot at pots with not very much, bets 500, first blind calls, 500 to me with 2500 in pot and no-one behind me to raise to I call as I have 4 outs to a house which I think will be good, and I may have some implied odds.
Turn third heart, check check check. River blank. Suddenly first blind comes in with 1000. I think he is a decent player and is capable of bluffing in the right spot. The player behind me doesn't look interested and I'm getting 4-1 on a call without threatening my stack. I can't be sure enough that he isn't bluffing for the pot odds I'm getting so I call as a "bluff-catcher". Third player folds, I lose to Qx hearts.
The question is, OK I know you have to be there, but does the logical flow of betting throughout the hand suggest that a bluff is enough of a possibility for me to call, unlikely or impossible ? Any thoughts welcome.
Andy.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I have a hell of a lot to learn about Omaha for sure. This seems like a good tournament to practice in. I wound up 5th and got knocked out in 2 hands in a Hold-Em round anyway :-).
Andy.
Andy - in Omaha with a flush on board your and 4 left in the hand you have to be looking at some sort of flush - since he had only Q high and 1st to act he was being caucious on the turn and rightly so or he might have had check raise in mind.
Another thought in a "tournament" pot odds should be a much smaller factor as to weather you should call a bet or not than in a ring game. Besides the 4-1 was not eneough for the 4 outter you were looking for.
You are playing in Luton right? If I make it up there I'll look you up. We are really looking forward to the trip.
Rounder,
In fact it wasn't in Luton it was in Russell Square, London. I don't like this cardroom as much but they have some cheap tournaments. Do E-Mail me on andy@pokersoft.co.uk once you know your plans and I'll stand you a drink (and find out how tight you really play :-))
Andy.
Your post highlights two major difference between holdem and Omaha: first, hand values throughout the hand tend to be much stronger in Omaha, and second, free cards are much more dangerous in Omaha, even in shorthanded pots.
On the flop, you say that your hand looks "a bit crap." What stronger hand could someone have here? You're only behind a set, which is highly unlikely with only two opponents in. The caller presumably found some reason to play his hand, so it's almost impossible that he would limp with 22 or 33. TT and 33 are also far less likely when you have T3.
While you probably have the best hand, your two pair are highly vulnerable. Not only will a heart likely beat your hand, but an A/4/5/6 could give someone a straight, and any card except T and 3 could give someone a higher two pair. So against most opponents you want to bet out here. If you check this, you have to be very sure that the last player will try to steal, since a free card is dangerous here. Once he bets, you have to raise the full pot. You want to win this right there.
A 4-out draw to a full house is worth nothing in Omaha. But on the flop there's no reason to believe you're drawing, since he's almost definitely on a steal, and you probably have the best hand.
Once the third heart hits, most players will check a low flush. With three players in, it's probably at least somewhat probable that some flush is out there, although maybe not one strong enough to bet. What exactly this card is also matters, since people tend to play connected cards and high cards (although it's not as much of an issue in this hand since only one player entered the pot voluntarily). So a jack will more likely give someone two pair than a seven, since a limper will more often have JT than T7.
On the river, you have a fold. A bet of 1000 into a 3000 pot usually won't be a bluff. Also consider that he's first to act, that there is a potential flush on board, and that many non-nut flushes will call here once the turn is checked around. So people are likely to call him here, especially if he bets only a fraction of the pot. Also, even a bluff may well beat your hand of a weak two pair.
Good stuff Dan,
What I meant by the hand being no good was that the game is playing very loose, even in the final there are a few players whose grasp of Omaha is every bit as tenuous as mine. I really didn't want to put many chips in because I felt I could easily get called by someone with just a Ten and some overcards (to my 3), maybe some kind of draw as well. He'd have a load of outs and I'd have no idea what they are. So I didn't really want to play it at all but I got kind of sucked in by the small bets people made.
In retrospect it seems that anything (check-fold, check-raise, bet) would have been better than my check-call on the flop.
Overall the Omaha played really strangely because there were a lot of weak players and so the nuts were out there a lot less than I was expecting. One four-handed pot was won by one pair !
Here's another hand I had. 5-handed, 2 tables left, all pretty tight, this is where I like to steal. Omaha on the button I have 9776. I figure this is playable, 2 before me both fold, so I raise to try to take the blinds. I get re-raised (pot size) by a tight player and I fold. What do you think of this play ?
Thanks,
Andy.
Here's another hand I had. 5-handed, 2 tables left, all pretty tight, this is where I like to steal. Omaha on the button I have 9776. I figure this is playable, 2 before me both fold, so I raise to try to take the blinds. I get re-raised (pot size) by a tight player and I fold. What do you think of this play ?
Andy - Good fold!
IMO, although the situation was right for a steal, you did not have a good hand to try a steal at this point in a tournament. If the steal works, of course you're a hero. However, if the blind just calls and you find yourself heads-up, you don't have a good heads-up hand. Or, as in this case, if the blind re-raises you're also in trouble.
If the blind is a good player, has a good heads-up hand and realizes that you may be on a steal attempt, the blind might be half expected to re-raise here. (Turned out to be a better play for the blind to re-raise here, didn't it?)
In this tournament situation, if I am in the blind, I tend to re-raise with any kind of playable heads-up hand here.....sigh.....(Of course, this is where I tend to get knocked out of tournaments).
Buzz
"Here's another hand I had. 5-handed, 2 tables left, all pretty tight, this is where I like to steal. Omaha on the button I have 9776. I figure this is playable, 2 before me both fold, so I raise to try to take the blinds. I get re-raised (pot size) by a tight player and I fold. What do you think of this play ?"
Pot-limit Omaha is a highly positional game. If there's real money left to bet on the flop, the button confers a *huge* advantage, especially heads-up. Against players who are overly tight before and/or on the flop, you could steal with a lot of hands here. This hand is pretty awful though. A lot depends on the stack sizes. Even if the tight player in the blind *had* to have aces, you would gladly call him on the button with a hand like 9876 double suited unless the reraise was close to all-in. The problem with 9776 is that you are much less likely to flop two pair with only two single cards working, and that won't be made up for by the small chance of flopping a set with the seven. This hand also flops many fewer draws than a "straight run" like 9876. The advantage to a hand like 9876 is that you'll hit a lot more flops, and you'll also flop a lot of draws that you might be able to semibluff raise with on the flop.
If the tight player's reraise was all-in or close to it, you consider if the pot odds justify your call given the tournament situation and that the chips you're risking are worth more than the chips you might gain. In general, hands run much closer in value in Omaha than in holdem. Even against premium hands like aces-double suited, most hands don't do that badly. Many (most?) heads-up matchups are closer than 60%-40%, unlike holdem where large advantages are common. When you're going all-in preflop, and you're *sure* it will be heads-up, you can call with marginal hands in many situations in Omaha. If they are facing more than one opponent, trash hands do much worse.
Andy - I think you have bad position in this hand.
To answer your question, I don't think you should call the river bet, even though the player behind you looks "disinterested." In addition, it's doubtful that you have a winner.
I agree with Badger, Rounder and Dan that you should have bet the flop. It's hard to say for sure without being there and without knowing more specifically the cards in your hand and on the board, but once you missed the opportunity to bet the flop, I think you should fold when the does limper does bet the flop and the other blind calls.
Regards to you. London is one of my favorite cities.
Buzz
Looks like a decent 3rd day. Annie DUke and Kathy Leibert are alive and well with plenty of chips - TJ (my pick) is still kicking with 146K - two other McMannus and Jacobs with big stacks lucked out and drew tables with tiny stacks to play with.
I could say wish I was there but don't we all.
Most Europeans will now be pinning their hopes on Barney Boatman, 2nd chip leader with 280K. I've never bought into this patriotism deal though so, no disrespect to Barney, but I'd love to see either Duke or Liebert win because it would be great for poker if a woman wins, and it would really p*** off all the grizzled old throwbacks who populate so many poker rooms ! Plus I read an interview with Kathy Liebert once where she came across very well, so good luck to her.
Andy.
barney has tough position. 2 to kathy's right.
kathy is in a great spot to have a huge chip lead at the end of today.
scott
I was impressed with the interview too.
I want the best player to win - a women should be able to compete on the same level and with the chip counts they have 2 gals at the final table is not imposible.
I don't see poker eigther hepled or hurt by who wins the WSOP but it is interesting.
I bet they'll only play down to nine for time reasons, but my final six are:
Kathy L. T.J. Humberto Brenes Tom Jacobs Jim Manus Annie Duke(who should be barred for cheating; she's been violating the "one player to a hand" rule for the last eight months! :) )
Heads up, Kathy has over a 2-1 chip lead on T.J., but he finally gets a break at the Final Table, sucks out on a big all-in pot, then wins with his experience and aggressiveness. I believe the 1.5 mil makes him the all time leading money winner at the WSOP. Well deserved.
I just think that a woman winning would make more people think "hey, maybe I could play poker too" (I know this is not a problem in the US but it is here), and it would help break down the image of poker as the preserve of old, white cigar-chewing males. Still, neither of these are good reasons for anyone to soft-play Kathy or Annie tomorrow :-). May the best player win.
Andy.
A friend of mine who is at the WSOP gave me the lowdown on this McManus. He is out there on a writing assignment and has NEVER played in a Poker tournament before. He won a single table satellite to gain the entry.
He also had TJ all-in on the flop on the 2nd day where TJ was a big favorite to bust out. The board was Jxx and TJ had his namesake, JT. McManus had QJ and TJ was saved when one of the x cards paired on the turn and then an Ace gave him a split on the river. I wonder if TJ wil remember this hand if he busts out on a bad beat as he has in the past.
I'm going to put my money on this Boatman guy. He is at a table full of gamb00lers, and I understand he has a little gamble himself. Whoever takes control of this table (or gets lucky against the big stacks) should be big chip leader.
I hope its Kathy. She's nice.
I read in Glazer's report the hand you are reffering to. The hand TJ had was more like A-10 and McManus had A-J, the flop was like A-9-3, then paired the 9 and Ace and TJ survived. I don't think this is a "bad beat" type of situation that TJ survived, I think he really thought he had the best hand here, and was crushed when he was outkicked by a Jack. Good hands and good plays still deserve a little old fashioned "good luck" and there is nothing bad about that.
Sorry about messing up the details. I heard the story second-handed. Anyway, the net outcome is the same. TJ was all-in with a 3-outer and managed to get lucky and survive. We all focus on the bad beat that knocked us out and forget the lucky ones that kept us alive. It takes a little luck to get there in a tournament to survive was my point. What is your point?
p.s. Of COURSE TJ thought he had the best hand. I don't think he was putting whole tourney on the line drawing o the 3-outer or runner-runner split.
Habib going to win 1 st 1500 000 $$ i am shore
Word is that Habib is consulting with railbird Tony Ma IN THE MIDDLE OF THE HAND!
Real men play their own hand.
Now I'll take Chris Fergusen and his 55% of the chips in play.
Just read Andy Glazer's excellent report from WSOP day II where he mentioned a big hand which involved a $ 200.000 pot. Player A limp in for $ 1000 from the SB and player B makes it another 8k from the BB. SB calls and flop comes T J 3 (suits not mentioned). SB checks and BB bets 16k, SB plays back for another 24k and BB move all in. Should be somewhere around a 50k raise, stacksizes aren't mentioned. After some hesitation SB calls and turn over Q T. BB shows his K Q and bust out when blanks fall.
Would be fun to hear any experienced tourneyplayers opinion here. Personally I'd smack myself in the head if I bust out on one of these hands with an averagesized stack. I guess SB had a good read on BB since he dared jeopardize most of his stack on such a weak holding as middle pair Q-kicker.
Mattias
I was just reading that report before I headed over here. I thought the same exact thing about that hand. It further says that Mike Sexton says there is nothing wrong going all in here, I kind of disagree. He backs up his tracks saying that checking behind the flop is just as good here too: that I think is the better play, but if you're going to go all in, I think he should have done it all in one move, since you're hoping to win the all in bet without a call (in both scenarios) rather than having to catch one of numerous outs. I would be very dissapointed if I went out on this hand too. I've seen it, and then heard it described as a "bad beat", but it's a cocky play. Haabib check-raised, on the flop so you have to figure he has something, trying to bully him with a drawing hand is a poor decision.
Against most BB opponents, SB should raise preflop. That's not a bad steal hand from the SB. Given that SB limped, SB should fold to the 8K raise from most players in the BB. I like BB's raise of the limp, and given that SB limp-called, BB probably expects him to have a drawing hand.
On the flop, a lot will depend on SB's read of BB's preflop raise. Many players will rarely make this play without a fairly strong hand. Others will raise a SB limper often to set up a potential steal on the flop. If SB is not already behind, BB may have a strong draw - AK/AQ/KQ. BB may try to steal with a lot of hands if he puts SB on a missed draw given his limp-call preflop and check on the flop. (Ax suited, pairs
Question is who made the most mistakes here.
certainly the call of the 8k raise from the BB with a holding like QT can't be all that smart. Then the check of the TT by the BB is bigger mistake then reraising and calling the BB all in is a bigger mistake. The BB probably is a much better player sb blundered his/her way into a 200k pot.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 May 2000, at 4:30 p.m.
I really got played in one hand of a tourney the other day. Fortunately I was able to watch the guy that did this get put out before the break but he really scored one on me.
It was still early in the tourney. I had won 4 of the 5 hands I went in for but the pots were modest. This fellow was first in from middle position and raised. The tourney at this point was still limit and the blinds were small. It folded to me and since I had AKd I called. SB folded, BB called. Three of us.
The board ended up 62795 rainbow. Since he raised I was not inclined to think this flop helped him anymore than it helped me. He bet and I called to the river basically hoping to catch a pair or if not that he did not raise with a pair. The flop ended up all small and harmless looking but it turns out he held 96s, for two pair!
I had to compliment him (though I really think it a weak play) but this hand sure worked out for him.
I prefer three betting before the flop to get it headsup and trying to maximize position. With your opponents hand and the flop there is no way you will win. You can't outplay him and you will wind up losing more if you get cute. Your opponent certainly played a very marginal piece of cheese.
Bruce
...pokersearch.com; Hasan Habib has 400K, Annie Duke 340K, Kathy L 100K, 25 players left,
TJ,Manus,Sexton,Boatman,Jacobs,Shulman,Franklin also still alive,
Judah,Brenes,McKinney,Greenstein,Goldstein gone.
Wow, 25 players left and the leader STILL only has ~2x the average stack. Man, if TJ catches any kinda rush...
Habib 540K, TJ 400K, Annie 300K, Kathy L 130K 18 players left, Ron Stanley and Tom Jacobs out.
..from philhellmuth.com:
(These are NOT chip standings; listed by order they started the day)
Jim MacManus(Manus?) Hasan Habib Annie Duke Chris Ferguson T.J. Cloutier Mike Sexton Anastassi Lazarou Jeff Shulman Tom Franklin Stephen Kaufman Roman Abinsay Mickey Appleman (Started the day w/6K; absolutely unbelievable; I saw on RGP that as of 8:00 he had 180K)
Good work.
NT
I played in my first tourney tonite...placed 6th out of 45 people. 2 out of the money, except for the $50. save we made for everyone at the final table. Anyways, here are the two situations that came up that I replayed in my mind on the way home.
16 people left, I have T3500 in chips and am in the small blind. Blinds are at 400/800. 5 callers to me...I have Q5o and ponder whether I should call the 400. I don't..flop comes Q 5 10. River is a Q. Huge pot...but I tried not to think about it. I thought I was still in decent position to make it to the final table. Should I call here? I never play Q5 and the fact that there were already 6 players convinced me to muck it. Bad Decision?
3 Hands later I get Q9o and fold it to a preflop raise. Flop come K 10 J. Another lost opportunity. Should I have called the 1600 to me? I think not, but like I said, this was my first tourney so I don't really know.
I got crap cards the rest of the way and got blinded out in 6th place...it's hard to make any moves when the blinds go up to 800/1600 and you only have around 3000.
On another note, the hand after I left the chip leader found out his shuttle was leaving in 10 minutes so he wanted to make a deal and split the rest of the money evenly between the 5 remaining people. This included two guys who had less than T5000 with the Blinds at 1500/3000. I left and didn't want to know what they decided to do. Overall though it was alot of fun...especially busting out a guy who raised J9o twice in 3 hands preflop.
Sounds like you did fine. Q5 it may be only 400 to you but it's a total piece of cheese. I'd fold. Q9 to a pre-flop raise for almost half your stack is an absolute cast-iron fold. Don't kick yourself when you fold and a miracle flop comes up.
It is hard when you get short-stacked but don't focus too strongly on hand values. Look for a situation where you can be the first one in the pot, with a raise. It's more difficult in limit to knock everyone out, but when you're short, being the aggressor with a moderate hand is better than being a caller with a good hand, especially when there is likely to be multi-way action.
Good luck,
Andy.
1) Five callers to you with Q, baby offsuit is not a calling hand in my opinion except if you are in the SB, and even that is marginal. Too many way to be beaten.
2) I would dhave folded Q, 9 off.
But than I am conservative in late stages of a tournament
Really inportant is the decision you made at the time not what the flop was. That is hind sight. Those hands in those situations were must mucks.
The fact the flop hit them is not important.
You did the right thing.
Thanks guys....I felt I was right in mucking them and feel better now that you agree.
Blinds are $50/$100 NL HE full table with T$2300 you are on the button tight aggressive tricky with T$2500 makes it $400 to go UTG - this guy has consistantly showed down big hands, just showed down a set of T's and checked the flop to set up a AK who had 2 pair, solid player makes it $1275 all in, it's checked to you and you see AQs - what do you do here?
100 started 40 or so left paying 10 $17000 or so in the pot.
Pass. To be honest I would probably pass to the initial UTG raise even without someone else going all in. You have plenty of time to wait for a spot where you are the aggressor and you aren't guessing so much. Hm - be the aggressor, not the guesser, I like that as a catchphrase.
Andy.
Easy muck, I believe, especially since you describe both players such that it appears unlikely either is making a move.
You would have to be sure that at least the 2nd raiser is making a move before you could play here, and even then you'd need to be pretty darn sure the first guy is going to fold.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I would muck it. Your flush is likely to be your only out with two solid preflop raises...unless you put the 1275 on a steal.
MUCK!!
Cut and pasted this off Mike Paule's rgp report.
SEAT PLAYER AMOUNT PRIZE MONEY BREAKDOWN 1 CHRIS FERGUSON $2,853,000 1ST PLACE $ 1,500,000 3 JIM MCMANUS $554.000 2ND PLACE $ 896,500 5 ROMAN ABINSAY $521,000 3RD PLACE $ 570,500 6 STEVE KAUFMAN $511,000 4TH PLACE $ 326,000 2 HASAN HABIB $464,000 5TH PLACE $ 247,760 4 T.J. CLOUTIER $216,000 6TH PLACE $ 195,600
Remember I picked TJ - those who can, do.
Last night at Foxwoods the following hand came up -
There are three tables left and I have about 2500 in chips which was a medium stack. My opponent has about the same. We're were playing 300 - 600.
I'm last to act before the bring in and have QK/Q. There are two limpers before a xx/9 raises. All fold to me and I reraise to drive the limpers out. They all fold and the 9 reraises me. Should I fold?
I call. On fourth street I catch a blank and he catches a King. I bet into him to test him thinking that I probably have him beat. Should I check? I figured that checking shows weekness. Well, he raises me. I'm thinking I should've probably folded at this point, but I call. I catch a 9 on fifth street and he catches a ten. I check, he bets. The bet puts him fairly short stacked. What should I do?
What are the antes and the bring-in ? How many at the table ?
"They all fold and the 9 re-raises me. Should I fold ?" Depends on how your opponent plays and how he thinks you play. Basically, could he do this with something like (9A)9 ? If he could, then this hand is much more likely than a buried pair. If he couldn't, and you figure you are definitely up against a bigger pair (most likely Aces) then it's close, it may also depend on how good you are compared to the rest of the table - the tougher your opponents, the more you would tend to gamble in a situation like this. If you think he could play the way he did with nines, it's a definite call (if not re-raise).
"On fourth street I catch a blank and he catches a King. I bet into him to test him thinking that I probably have him beat" There's no point betting into him "to test him" if you're going to call when he raises anyway. The extra information that you have gained (that you think you're beat now) hasn't changed your play, so it has just cost you a bet. A bet for value would be different but see the final paragraph.
By the time you get to fifth street you have put 1500 in (correct me if my limit arithmetic is wrong), the pot is about 4000 and you have 1000 left. By now you are committed to the pot and must call to the end. Putting in all the extra bets earlier on and then chickening out now is the _very worst_ thing you can do.
Given the situation I might have been inclined to check-call all the way from 4th street unless there is any play you can make (a check-raise at any stage ?) which you think has a real chance of making your opponent fold. You have to be there to figure this one out. If he won't fold, then get to the showdown as cheap as possible. The chips you risk at this point (your case 1500 or so) are much more valuable than the chips you can win (an extra 1500 on the final pot).
All comments welcome.
Andy.
Andy,
With no knowledge of the players and other cards showing, I cannot assume the Q was on a steal or playing anything less than a big pair which makes the 9 a pretty good shot of a big pair or suited when he answers a raise. Now, reraising tells me the 9's + what ever is under can beat Queens and possibly Queens up might be an underdog. When the King falls, that is +/-, but when Mike gets the 9 which is a useless card for him, Mike is in real trouble. I know we often put people on hands which are better that they really have, but in a late stage of a tournament, I suspect the reraiser would not risk a confrontation with a steal. He has the goods in my opinion.
At first that's a tough one, but after thinking about it, I woule have folded. I cannot see him trying to steal with a nine showing. I have to figure him for Kings/aces or nines. Would he have raised with 9's? maybe with an ace/king kicker. His reraise was strong. I think he has the goods. Save the extra bet. I know it's tough to toss live Queens, but ...
In case either one of you are wondering, I folded. I really wish I hadn't because I was out of the tournament a couple of hands later when I committed myself to jacks with an Ace kicker and it didn't improve. It's not usually my practice, but I asked the guy if he had aces later on. He said that he didn't.
Thanks for the posts. I think it was a tough hand to play and I made it worse with my bet into him on 4th street. If I hadn't done that, I may have checked called him the whole way, and possibly won. Oh well, live and learn.
Here is a mind-boggling hand from the final table of the WSOP. I read the following accounting on RGP.
TJ had a nice stack (somewhere near a million) when he plays the following hand against Jim McManus (who seems to be this years Kevin McBride- a somewhat skilled calling station.)
Blinds are 10k-20k. McManus brings it in for 80k from one off the button. TJ reraises to 230k from the the BB. McManus sweats, but calls. TJ has him covered in chips by about 300k.
Flop is junk-junk-junk.
TJ bets 230k in a flash. McManus sweats again for over a minute, but calls.
Turn is another baby. TJ moves in for the rest of his chips. I'm not sure of the amount, but he has 300k more than McManus, whos still has a lot left.
McManus calls again, but doesn't like it.
They flip over their hands.
TJ- A9o; McManus- AKo. TOUGH CALL!, but I guess it's his nature.
No nine on the river and TJ joins the short stacks.
I'm not knocking TJ as a player, but this seems like bad poker. I had money bet on him, and this hand seems to have killed his chances. I know he sensed weakness here (and was right), but this guy obviously gave no indication that he was the type of player that could release an unimproved AK in a heads-up pot.
TJ himself cautions against trying to bluff this type in his book.
Of course, if Huck Seed or Erik Seidel made this call, we would all be talking about what a great play they made. Another question to ponder is "Did he call because he is weak, or because he is strong?"
If this demonstrates one thing, it's that TJ _definitely_ does not play by his own books. He states very clearly in CNLPLHE that if he misses the flop with AK he's through with the hand, period. Here he's got A9 !
Not necessarily a criticism, just a comment.
Andy.
Andy He was on a bluff - I don't agree with the hand he chose to play it with but he was on a bluff.
I agree, I am a TJ fan and I think this is a bad play.
Not the flop and turn but the call of $80K with A9.
The bluff was executed perfectly it was against the wrong guy. With the number of small sets TJ was spiking yesterday I'd have tp put him on a better than AK hand.
Mike-
He didn't CALL the original 80k. He reraised it to 230k. McManus was in a steal position, and I guess TJ put him on a steal. Not sure how aggressive McManus was paying prior to this hand, but the A9 isn't bad against a steal. However, once he called the 230, I would have tread very carefully after the flop.
BTW, if I were McManus, I would have moved all-in before the flop with my AK and put the heat back on TJ. Given his steal position, TJ doesn't need AA, KK, or QQ to make the reraise, and I think he'd have a tough call with anything less.
Should have my coffee before I post.
I missed that and of course he raised.
I think they both played the hand horrible.
AK on the button I probably go in or make it a bigger bet pre flop. Put the pressure on. I really don't want to see a flop here with AK. But I do want to the blinds and antis.
I saw the play live. T.J. was betting much too quickly than normal. In fact, it looked like he was initiating the betting action almost before the cards were even turned. It was a typical example of a "strong means weak tell". The calling station novice must have sensed it the way many simpletons are sometimes able to sense that a used car salesman or insurance agent has a trick up his sleeves. Good naive call from the novice.
Look, TJ's opponent had a pretty good bluff stopping hand right? He was betting that TJ did not have a big pair. He knew he was behind only if TJ had a pair since the flop was trash and probably did not help the raiser. Even if TJ had a small/medium pair, he could catch one of his cards to win. He probably also figured if TJ had a hand like AA, KK, QQ he would have raised more preflop.
TJ's quick betting must have been a clue of weakness since a big pair in the hole would be a big hand with the junk junk board, and worthy of slower play.
McManus must have sweated the whole way but I think TJ's attempt to muscle the 60k raiser with an A9 was the weakest play.
Betting tons into a calling station with what is far from the hand being represented and losing a lot of chips after making it to the final ten or so. Where have I heard this before?
JG
The main part I don't understand is the turn bet....McManus already has 460K committed and almost has to call the turn with what he has to believe is 6 outs. If he calls the flop bet in the manner described then T.J. HAS TO put him on two over cards(AK, AQ) (especially with the preflop raise), therefore possibly giving TJ the nine as the only out on the river. I'd be interested in knowing how much the turn bet was to put McManus all-in...if McManus had around 100K this is a no-brainer call for him, and TJ has to know this.
But then again, I'm just a rookie and far be it for me to criticize one of the best in the game.
It Seems That T.J. Better Start Reading Other Books Instead Of Making Them. Should Of Hit The Brakes After A Call On The Flop. But Knowing His Play Before He Thinks Yhey Should Fold Because He Is The Mighty T.J.
There Are Alot Of Quality Poker Players In This Day Of Age, More So Then Ever. T.j. + Phil H And The Other Legendary Dinasours Will Have To Respect That
Just reading an account of where Phil noticed a "chop" pot after it was incorrectly awarded to one player and told the "losing" player on his way out. Loser went back and got 1/2 his pot back.
I have no problem with Phil doing the right thing but can you believe at this level someone didn't see this - guess the question is. If you see this at your table and you want players to be knocked out at this stage do you shut up or say something?
I am sure I would point this out.
Mike-
A similar situation to this was the start of the all-time longest (and most painful) thread on RGP. I think Badger made the original post. He was involved in an all-in hand, noticed that the other player actually had him beat, but allowed the dealer (who also misread the hand) to push him the pot anyway.
I, like you, would probably speak up whether I was involved in the hand or not. But I can see the oter side, too. If a player can't read his own hand (or trusts an incompetent dealer), why should me, you, Badger, or anyone else be responsible for reading it for them.
Apologies to Badger if I mistated the facts.
I think it was absolutely the right thing at this stage of poker's most visible event. It sends a message that it is a gentleman's (person's) game, even at the highest levels.
I think that the player to whom the pot was originally pushed also deserves a lot of credit for (evidently) not making a big deal about it. With so much at stake, the temptation to press for a technical advantage would be very strong.
It has happened to me, and I caught it after I tossed my cards in. But (and it's a big but) I caught it before it hit the muck, so the floorman (Bruce at the Trop) and the dealer (John D) were able to reconstruct the hand. The other person did not object too strenuosly.
At our casino it is the dealers job to name the winning hand. Even if a mistake is caught after hands go into the muck and the pot is pushed the wrong way, the house has to make good. They'll go to the tape if necessary.
It Could Have Been One Of The Horses In A Barn He Save For Himself Or His Sugar Daddy's That Was Sponsoring Phil And The Player He Was Saving
.
Does anybody know how David exited the tourney? What were some of his key plays.
nt
I'm sure the genius lost when his opponent caught perfect-perfect, after a misdeal.
And opponent didn't have the "correct" odds to call LOL :-)
In case you can't connect to Phil Hellmuth's site, here's the direct address to the audio of the WSOP: http://idirector.media.ibeam.com/netshow/v2/onstage/ielogix/poker_20k.asx
On Windows 98, you can listen using the Windows Media Player. Just click on the above link. If you have Windows 95, you may need to install Windows Media Player first. If you're on another operating system, you'll need to find a player that support asx files.
The coverage starts at 12:00 PST, but you can connect earlier and wait for it to start if so desired.
Juiio, that link is a savior. Thanks a million.
juiio,
Can I use Realplayer7 for this ?
Thanks,
MJ
No, you need windows media player. Get it here: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/mediaplayer/en/download/Win32Otherx86.asp
mj
I am live in the audio coverage of pokerpages.com.
Roman Abinsay out in the 2nd hand against Chris Ferguson who had pocket eights
Jim Mc Manus out against Steve Kaufmann who held AQ offsuit against A2 offsuit
Wow. Those guys are playing fast and letting TJ slide right up the ladder for some serious shekels.
Thanks for the updates. I can't connect anywhere.
your welcome ... nothing happening right now ... an allin move from kaufmann no call
tj all in , hassan habib call
KT diamond for tj hassan pocket deuces ,tj wins with king high flush
chipcount ferguson about 3,8 million,TJ about 600k, Kaufmann about 500, hassan habib about 200
hassan habib out against chris ferguson AK, 3 handed now
Ferguson has AK in big blind. Hassan was all-in with KQ. AJx on the flop. Turn is a Q. River was a blank. Ferguson puts out Hassan. Ferguson now has 4.2 million.
Thanks for the updates, bootsy. I'm at work and also can't get a connection. I hope these guys last till about 6:30 eastern so I can listen at home. I think you have to watch out for TJ given he has some chips to play with now.
Good thing, too.
Don't tell Rounder;-)
ITS HEADSUP
Kaufmann out
TJ vs Jesus
The have a break there right now ..nothing happens
GO TJ GO...
If only for karma's sake, how can your root against a guy called "Jesus"?
What are the respective stacks, and blind level? Por favor?
CF must have TJ about 4 to 1.
TJ has about 600k, Ferguson has about 4.5 million. The blinds are 15k/30k. The blinds should go up to 20k/40k quickly.
jesus has about 4.5 million TJ 600k.
I think blinds are still 15k 30k
ACTION STARTS its 4.7 million against tjs 400k
TJ doubles up with a full house 1o and 7s
Go T.J.
CHIP COUNT TJ about 1.1 million vs 4 million ferguson
No deal made ?
TJ has about 1.5 mill now
What two or three forms/types of poker are the best (i.e., most entertaining and skill-rewarding) when played in a no-limit tournament format? I've heard Hold'em, Omaha, and Duece to Seven Lowball.
Thanks
Omaha High and Omaha-8 are poor no-limit games. One problem is that the nuts on the flop can just overbet the pot and shut out drawing hands, eliminating much of the skill in the game (bluffing, hand reading, ...). In pot-limit, there are so many potential scare cards on the turn and river that even if you had the nuts on the previous street your hand is often potentially beaten and only an accurate read of the situation, player, and opponent's hand will lead to a correct decision. Also, when the money goes in preflop the game is basically a crapshoot - with one exception. Aces are a favorite over another hand heads-up, but can be tricky to play when they miss the flop. So in no-limit you just go all-in with them and you're done. In pot-limit, aces can be very expensive if you can't get close to all-in preflop, and out of position they are in trouble against a good connected hand.
Holdem and lowball (A-5 or 2-7) are both good no-limit games. 5-card draw was also played no-limit once, but I'm not familiar with it or how well it plays no-limit.
current chipcount TJ. 1.4 mill ferguson 3,7 mill
internet audio is reporting that tj has a small chip lead after a big hand where they each had like 850k in the pot.....
tj and chris both all in. tj shows a7s, chris a2 s. board kqtx3 for a split pot....high drama.
with a 5 million dollar 9 on the river!
Pathetic that the one who played best didn't win it. It wasn't just the "5 million dollar 9 on the river", it was the repeated longshot outdraws. At least the outcome will give more newcomers hope that they can get lucky too.
TJ was obviously the better player. I feel sorry for him...
Don't feel sorry for him. He came back from 10-1 down in chip count and damn near won it. I know he wants this one more than any other but he just missed.
I picked him to win it before it started.
Like I have said those who can do.
You're confusing me now Rounder. Can TJ teach or not ?
Abdy.
Andy before I got TJ's book Championship NL PL HE early last year I was having a really hard time winning and placing in tournaments it turned my record around. I went from a horrible tournament player to a winning one. I give TJs book and some tournament experience the credit for my turnaround.
Rounder,
I have tremendous respect for TJ, his record is second to none. And I have picked up a lot from his books as well, especially his chapter on final-table play in "Championship Stud".
The point I'm trying to make is that the saying "those who can do, those who can't teach" is both wrong and irrelevant. If "those who can't teach" then why is TJ writing books at all ?
Andy.
NO Andy it doesn't mean those who can do "can't" teach it usually means those who CAN'T "do" teach. I think there is a big difference.
???
Live broadcast. TJ held AQ, Chris had A9 they went all in. 9 showed on the river.
Had a time lag on RGP
Preflop:
Chris was in BB for 50k. TJ raised 170k, Chris reraised 600k. TJ reraised all in. Chris thought about it hard and long, but called.
Board X X X X 9
TJ: AQo Chris: A9o
TJ got rivered. Sometimes, you'd rather be lucky than good.
I'm always amazed how little a hand a tourney player seems to need to commit all in. TJ and Chris had about 2.5 million each. Couldn't cards like AQo / A9o be played aggressively for a lot less than the whole wad?
Why wouldn't TJ just call the 600k rather than risk his whole stack?
I just don't understand. It's as if the prospect of having to make a betting decision after the flop is so unthinkable they would rather die.
It was heads up. He thought (and was right) that he had the best hand. You don't sit and wait for AA to come.
Chris Who Won It? Whats His Last Name?
n/t
Maybe now he has the money for a hair cut. :-)
Any body know about this guy. Maybe he is a neighbor of Zee.
At pokersearch.com
...per somebody on RGP who said they heard it from Mike Sexton FWIW.
They didn't make a deal. Annie Duke had 5% of his equity.
Max
5% of whose - TJ or Jesus?
newbi said:
"5% of whose - TJ or Jesus?"
Sorry my fault I wasn't clear--she had 5% of Chris.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I think there was one in '99 or '98. Anyone have the issue date so I can avoid slogging thru their archives?
Thanks for the info Badger,It's nice to know that the new world champ is a nice guy as well as a great player.
Thanks for the info Badger,It's nice to know that the new world champ is a nice guy as well as a great player.
what does it mean?
scott
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Tho I've never played a hand of Omaha with Badger, I think I "hold over" him, having finished in the money ahead of him every Omaha tournament in which we've both entered. :)
JG
.
http://www.cardplayer.com/newcp/articles/012299/dana.htm
..guy sounds like a real "life" winner.
The hand(A9 v. AK, not the AT v. AJ split pot) he played against McManus surrreeely did bring back memories of his bustout against McBride in 1998. Deep in the bowels of Sklansky's "McEvoy Confronts Me" thread I have a post entitled "For That Matter..(homework assignment)" which pretty much covers the TJ-KM hand(which has always bugged me; TJ absolutely handed 670K to a total amateur for no good reason whatsoever). Someone might find it educational or interesting...helpful for me to write it all out, anyway.
From Andy Glazer's report, McM raised in early pos., TJ re-raised from two seats behind, McM called then checked flop, TJ bet, McM called then checked turn, TJ goes all-in, McM called. If correct, this makes TJ's play even stupider.
TJ seems to have problems trying to run over total beginner-calling station-spooks("spook"=card catcher) who are openly in awe/fearful of him and are loudly proclaiming how great his book is.... :)
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Of course, this is FAR easier to do w/ two years hindsight; not to mention knowing how it all turned out...
McBride was a total calling station thru out the last two days of the tourney. At the time the hand was played KM had ~1.1 million, TJ ~700K, Scotty ~1.1 million. KM raises 40K in the SB, TJ re-raises another 120K.
What was the purpose of TJ's raise? Certainly not to make KM fold, he should've known that wasn't going to happen, based on KM calling Lee Salem pre-flop, etc. To allow himself an easy fold if KM re-raises all-in signifying he has AA or KK? To tie KM on to a K or Q w/ a worse kicker should one flop? To win an extra 120K with an all-in bet should a rainbow/rag flop hit?
I have no idea, but I'd like to; all TJ said was that he knew he had the best hand the whole way. I'm fairly new at NLHE tourneys and am wondering if there was a way TJ could've "protected" himself more here, as a clear but not overwhelming favorite with position against a calling station. Did he commit his stack too soon? Would it be a better play to wait til the turn to bet, assuming another blank comes?
On the flop, 8-4-2 w/ two clubs, a petrified looking KM checks. He sure looks like he's thinking "Please don't bet 'cause I'll have to call 'cause I have a draw to eliminate this one great player and then get a big headsup lead against this other great player".
VERY rough(and probably incorrect) figuring on my part makes it about 4-1 against KM having a flush draw, straight draw, top pair, set, ace high or overpair, ALL of which he'd've undoubtedly called with, so TJ's bet probably WAS correct to try to win the 300K pot right there(assuming he didn't have a "he's on a draw and is going to call" tell), and he's still a 2-1 favorite if KM's drawing.
I've always thought that TJ could've checked the hand down(I don't think KM bets the turn when the J hits fearing TJ'd have a J w/a better kicker when he checked behind on the flop, and TJ can safely muck if the third club comes and KM sets him in); thus giving himself a free card should a J, T or 9 come on the turn (one of which he must've figured KM for having at that point{on the flop}).
I guess my problem is/was mostly with the preflop raise. He must know KM will call it, and will also call on the flop should he catch any part of it. He must've figured KM for K or Q w/ a weaker kicker and that would, uh, "fulfill", Doyle's saying about not going all-in against a weaker player as a slight favorite when you'll be a bigger favorite later on. From going over this, though, TJ probably was getting the right odds(to double thru, or at least win a healthy pot).
Maybe it was everybody acting all shocked, SHOCKED, by KM's two calls. Well, duh, of course he's going to call; the first raise isn't 'big' enough(to KM's way of thinking; "Maybe I can bust TJ here!!"), and he had a draw on the flop(and was probably getting close to the right odds; 450 to win ~800K, plus an extra $400K prize money and a 700K lead over Scotty).
Hellmuth, Van Patten, Badger and even ol' BillM aren't going to play the hand, but we've got more poker experience than KM, if not as much money from our business endeavours.. :)
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Of course that's what you want to do, but I think it's slightly different when you're a big favorite over a world class player who might fold as opposed to a smaller favorite over a novice who definitely will call.
CF had 3 outs, KM had 15(9 of them 'lockouts'). Obviously, TJ had re-draws in both cases.
If he knew he had the best of it and that KM would call, why didn't TJ go all in BEFORE the flop?
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
.. he re-raised TJ 600K pre-flop, thus leaving himself vulnerable to the all-in re-re-raise, and a 3.3 to 1.9 deficit should he muck?
Someone on RGP posted that CF must've realized this, which is why he took so long, but then figured he couldn't win anyway with that kind of deficit so he took his chance right there.
I agree completly....Jesus knew he was getting outplayed and had to be in some state of shock after having a 12:1 chip lead at the start of heads-up. He had no choice but to go all-in at that point and hope that TJ had a medium pair such as 8's or 7's...but that's all history now.
I followed the play by play and remarked that Chris must have an Ace in his hand. I believe that he was mulling over his chances of having the best hand at that point. One thing that I am pretty sure of about Ferguson is that you don't run him out of pots real easily.
BTW isn't it true that Chris was never all in at any time when in fact the only player that was all in was TJ? Isn't it true that TJ made a big suckout on Ferguson to split the pot when the board was AA2, TJ had A7 and Chris had A2 when all of TJ's chips were in the middle?
CF-A2, TJ-A7h board 3s-Ts-Qh-Kh-Td
.
I started at the same table as Chris Fergison in the WSOP (table 67 if you doubt me!). Here's a very interesting hand that could have very easily gone the other way. Fergison had approx 12k in chips. He has pocket jacks on the button and raises it to 600 (blinds where 50-100). Small blind makes it 1800, and the big blind who was short stacked makes it 6000 all in. Chris calls and the small blind mucks. Flop comes a-j-10. turn is a king and the river pairs the ace. Big blind shows q-q and mucks his str8 to Chris's full house. Lets face it, in any tournament you need to get lucky, but not only did he hit a 2 outer on the flop, but then had to pair the board on the river!!! At the time of the hand, i didn't think it would end up being so key, so some of the actual money numbers could be off slightly, but the hands and the flop are EXACTLY correct. Interesting side note on the hand, the small blind who reraised preflop and then mucked claimed to have had a-j!!!
You have to get lucky to win any tournament, but he certainly had much more than his share -- perhaps it could be said that it was just his time. I'm guessing you didn't hear about the hand where he won with 6-6 against 7-7 ....
..7-stud isn't the world championship game.. :)
T.J Is Such A Solid Player I Cant Tell How Many Times He Made It To The Final Table In The Big Event. But It's More Than Anybody Else, Thats For Sure. One Day He Will Hit The 1.5 Million. And Maybe I'll Give It A Shot On The Big Event. When I Heard Who Was On The Last Two Players Were I Thought It Was T.J Versus A Zero. But I Shows How Wrong I Was.
If you go into a hand with the best two cards you are bound to win your share of tournaments.
Chris Ferguson has won his share of tournaments, and he's a very astute poker player. He's no "zero". However, the depth of experience of TJ versus CF was the one aspect that was most obvious in their play. Without some pretty miraculous suckouts, it really was no contest.
Dr. Chris Ferguson who holds a PHD in artiful intelligence from UCLA is a much better stud player than he is a nolimit holdem player. He enjoys ballroom dancing for entertainment. He is a gentleman and by all accounts. Please consider the whole man before criticizing one small episode in an otherwise praisworthy life. We could use alot more Chris Ferguson's in this world.
But T.J. did run circles around Jesus for all the world to see. Towards the end, Chris showed a lot of confusion and overwhelm in his face. His ala Furlong versus Huck Seed play was definitely justified, to his credit.
.
Ferguson and Furlong made bad calls PARTLY for the same reason, to get rid of a superior player now rather than to allow that same player to gain strength and momentum that will allow them to run over this relatively weaker player (Furlong and Ferguson) later.
I spoke to Furlong at Binion's this year about that hand. He said that he could tell that Huck was cracking because he had been on his (Furlong's) immediate right for three days and every move he made, Noel would come right over the top of him. Noel was very sure he had the best hand, which he did, plus he had over twice the chips Huck did. If Ferguson had thrown his (much inferior to TJ's) hand away, he's facing a 1.9 to 3.3 deficit. He had to have figured he was worse than a 3-1 dog under those circumstances, thus his call.
Not alone did Noel have the best hand against Huck he also had the best hand when he knocked out the seventh fifth third and second placed finishers.Seems to me his only crime was to beat Americans at their own game in their own country and forgot to apologise.
Doyle Brunson: 3rd in '72, 1st in '76, 1st in '77, 2nd in '80, 4th in '82, 3rd in'83.
TJ: 2nd in '85, 5th in '88, 3rd in '98, 2nd in '00.
Moss, Chan, Ungar: three each (Moss' "win" in 1970 was via election, not freezeout)
x
.
From Andy Glazer's report on poker.casino.com: "Did Cloutier outplay Ferguson? Probably, although without knowing their hole cards, its hard to know how much ammo TJ had or how little Chris did."
From the outside it certainly appeared like TJ was outplaying Chris. However, consider all those times that Chris made the first or second raise, and then folded to TJ's reraise. Was it because TJ made good reads, and knew he could get Chris to fold, or were they all easy plays, because TJ was holding very good cards? I don't know, and neither does anyone other than TJ and Chris.
Please think about this before posting any comments that are derogatory about Chris' play, or overly laudatory about TJ. It certainly is true that Chris got lucky on the last card dealt, but TJ might have been getting lucky himself, in a manner not visible to the audience.
Or, TJ might have been the better player. We'll never really know.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
If you listen to the broadcast, it was much more apparent who was the better player. TJ had him all-in on at least 3 different occasions when CF had to catch a miracle just to stay alive (on at least two hands, the board had to pair in order for him to even get a split pot). As he noted himself, he "was the luckiest person to ever win it."
A few comments do make it seem like Chris was outplayed, but I think this is like the argument of 'what did the book really mean', which I thought was pretty silly.
Both of these guys are pretty great players. Chris was in other final tables this year too. Not too shabby.
Mark
TJ is probably the better player. If they played heads up 25 times, I assure you that TJ would win atleast 15 of those times.
I was there. T.J. gave Jesus, and everyone who was fortunate enough to see him play, a poker clinic...and Jesus knows it. I was there when Chris hugged T.J. saying, "I'm sorry. I hope we're still friends". He said it with all sincerity and looked somewhat apologetic.
I wasn't there, but from everything I've read people seem to think TJ clearly outplayed Chris. Sure there were a bunch of hands where Chris had the worst of it and got lucky, but I don't think that they are hands that TJ would have laid down if the situations were reversed. If TJ consistently happens to pick up Ax with better kicker that's LUCK, not skill. Heads up Ax is a good hand. Also, don't forget about the luck TJ had flopping trips twice. Particularly, when the flop came TT7 and Chris had the 7. Can you say you would lay down that 7 to an all in bet from TJ? Frankly, I think that TJ was super lucky to get to the position he was in. He was a 10-1 dog and to say that he came back by outplaying his opponent is pure crap. It's LUCK!
is there somewhere where i can get a transcript of the hands for the final event? especially the first couple days.
i have been thinking a lot recently about deep stack no limit and would like to see how it plays.
scott
I don't know of any transcript, Scott. But people have discussed how to approach play at the various stages of the tournament in a WSOP type structure. I would guess that some of the Raymers, Michael7's and the like would be able to say something about that. I think I've seen such discussions here before but don't recall when. Maybe someone can provide a reference to a past thread?
I don't know of any transcript, Scott. But people have discussed how to approach play at the various stages of the tournament in a WSOP type structure. I would guess that some of the Raymers, Michael7's and the like would be able to say something about that. I think I've seen such discussions here before but don't recall when. Maybe someone can provide a reference to a past thread?
Sorry for the multiple posts. That's the first time that sort of glich has ever happened to me here. (posted the first, and it didn't show up...)
.
I posted this below under another thread but think it's worth another try.
I'm amazed how little of a hand tourney players seem to need to commit all in. TJ and Chris had over 2 million each. Can't cards like AQo / A9o be played aggressively for a lot less than whole stacks?
Why wouldn't TJ just call the 600k rather than risk his whole stack?
As someone else said, why didn't Chris just call the 170k with his weak Ace?
I just don't understand. It's as if the prospect of having to make a betting decision after the flop is so unthinkable they would rather die than deal with it.
Someone answered me that TJ's goal was to have the best hand in an all-in and this is what he did. Well, shit! and what he got is what can happen ! ! ANY HAND CAN LOSE and often does so why risk it all?!
I think you raise a good overall point. With the stack/blind ratio, these guys did not have to play as fast as they did. However, the blinds were high enough that you couldn't just let your opponent rob 4 or 5 times in a row before playing back.
I didn't lsiten to the play-by-play, but it sounds like Fergusen was being very aggressive before the flop. Maybe that's his style. Maybe he felt that TJ was a better reader after the flop. In any event, TJ just couldn't let the guy initiate all of the action without playing back.
On the final hand, TJ probably put Fergusen on exactly what he had: A-rag (albeit a decent rag). Once CF committed so many chips to the pot by reraising, TJ made the right play by setting him all-in (and wanting a call). He's nearly a 3-i favorite at this point. Its tough to get your opponent all-in as a bigger dog at any point in the hand, unless you're lucky enough to have big pair over big pair preflop.
It's nice to set them all-in when they are drawing dead, but it just doesn't happen that often at this stage of the tournament against these caliber of opponents.
LIKE you sad every hand can win ssoooooo why not BET
Nick,
What kind of read does TJ have? Maybe CF has a monster tell when he has a high pair and another monster tell when he has AK...but then, as my partner always likes to say: If pigs had wings, maybe they would fly. I doubt TJ *knew* what CF had....
But if CF did have ANY pair here (especially KK) or AK, then TJ would not be ahead 3-1 but way behind.
I think TJ is the best player out there, so I still don't get it...but then I haven't done so great in the few real (and IRC is too easy) tourney's I've played in.
Mark
What you describe is sit there and be a calling station. Obviously this is a bad strategy, especially in heads-up no-limit play. What it's about is just like "someone" said, gettin your money in with the best hand, which is exactly what T.J did. Then he got unlucky and lost when a dominated hand caught a 3-outer to beat him, it's pretty hard to get a better shot to win than that no? Let's say Chris just called with his A9 for 170k, what do you think he should do if flop comes A73 for example? Or any flop where he doesn't flop twopair or his nine is top-pair? Check and fold all the time? Anyway, though I agree they played it fast my point is you can't wait for the nuts to move in. These guys are top-players, if you start playing weak and passive you're history.
Mattias
Ah, but what if Chris just calls the first raise preflop, and then bets the flop? Whenever TJ didn't start with a pair, he will not flop a pair or better the significant majority of the time. Can TJ call a big bet on the flop with just overcards? What about another big bet on the turn?
While it's true that you can't be a calling station, it did seem to me that these guys were both doing all the betting (or folding) preflop, and very little postflop. In fact, I was surprised how often TJ was overbetting the pot. I mean, if Chris raises to 150K, why go all-in for 1.5M or more? While it's a great way to pick up 150K, when you get caught, you've got no room to back out.
Given the size of the blinds, I was surprised how little postflop play there was. If it had been a lot of make the first raise and win, no surprise. But, the number of reraises and rereraises was surprising. Also, it was hard to pick up on the audio broadcast, but were they ever just limping in preflop?
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Nonsense. I'm not saying sit there as a calling station. There is a wide range of betting options between 170k and 2.5 million or whatever their stacks were at.
In our local tournaments I always see players dash themselves on the rocks in just this way. After an hour or two of tension they just can't take it anymore and they throw all in and hope for the best - 'KILL ME OR MAKE ME, NOW!'.
You know what? I think it's all hogwash about the big players being great and having special skills. They're just human like everybody else. The best flop wins. If the same players show up over and over again in the tourney's it's because that's all they do! They have sponsers and they spend all their time in Vegas. TJ has the highest money winning title because he plays more tournaments.
I tend to agree with FossilMan somewhat, my reaction was about the same but who are we to tell? Fact was since T.J was so outchipped both players were aware of that he had to be aggressive and Chris decided he wouldn't let him, which makes sense. Several known players (Eric Seidel, Daniel N and Steve Brecher i believe) expressed their thoughts on this years main event in general on r.g.p, and all of them questioned the average playing standard, saying skill had become less important since it was common with all these all-in bets with any Ax or similar. And I'm sure many disagree with your opinion about the "best" players Nick, I can't tell since I haven't played them. Anyhow, it would be interesting if Badger, Daniel, S&M etc could give us their opinion of some of the final table plays.
Mattias
Actually I have played with a lot of the "best", TJ, Bonetti, Super M, Tony Ma, McEvoy, OK Johnney, Chuck Thomson, Huck Seed, Eskomo Clark, Barbara Eright, Vince Burgio and many other "name " players. Our good tournament players in Arizona are just as good as most of these guys. Guess the thing is they may be more consistant.
Frankley with the exception of TJ I found nothing specially impressive about any of them playing a few of them heads up was not revealing eigther actually I found some of their hand selections sub par in one on one match ups.
I was impressed with TJ's hand reading ability he put me on sets twice when I busted out other players I was glad they didn't see the sets coming. He was on my right for 4 hours at Sam's town. He made me for a tight player and we never tangeled.
Nick, I think Chris' decision to get overly aggresive was the right one for him, at that time. He had a huge chiplead and was being totally outplayed by T.J. Now I know Chris realized this and decided that he'll need to force the issue and try and get lucky. Similar to what Noel Furlong did to Huck Seed, and similarly what I did against Bonetti at the USPC. T.J. also knew what was happening. He didn't want to play big bet poker but Chris "forced" him to. T.J. knew that Chris wasn't going to stop anytime soon, and his move in with A-Q was an excellent read. That was the third time they got all-in and T.J. had him dead to three outs every time. The first two were split, and we all know what happened on the last hand. So no, they didn't need to be making such big bets, but Chris decided not to attempt to outplay T.J. anymore. He'd try and let the cards decided the winner. Not a bad decision when you aren't getting the best of the play. After all, how's this extreme example: Player A is the best no limit player ever, player B has never played before and they are even in chips head up for everything. What would be player B's best strategy? You guessed it, move all-in every hand! If he did that, he would take ALL the play away from player A. If he decided to try to outwit the best player in the world, he'd be wittled away for sure. Anyway congrats Chris, I'm really happy for you, you'll represent the poker world well...
I'll be very interested to hear Sklansky's take on the heads up play between these two. He's already indicated he has respect for Chris and has ack. his math abilities.
I listened to the final action as covered by Helmuth. It did seem as if TJ had momentum going for him but what the heck is momentum to a mathematician? Chris knows every hand is entirely unrelated to previous events. Their stacks were about equal, why would he crumble in the way you describe, and make a desperate lunge for everything with such a questionable hand (Ax?), apparently knowing he was a probable underdog?
For TJ's part, if he really felt he was the better player, would it not be to his advantage to keep the betting low so as to extend his edge over several hands rather than, again, dashing all-out in one single throw of the dice?
Nick this is the nature of big bet poker. You think you have the best of it going in you make your play before the flop. Math really has little to do with it here. Chris made a poor call with A9 as you need a better hand to call in these situations than to make the 1st bet.
TJ thought he was ahead and acted on it, question is what was Chris thinking, if he loses this he has no chance with a couple of hundred thousand.
Ahh, but T.J. did do that. He limped with A-Q on the button one hand, and was trying to play flops with Chris. Chris didn't want to, and started to re-raise weak. T.J. realized this and got his money in way the favourite every time. He forced Chris to make the errors, that's all he could do.
In baseball or hoops, a series of best-out-of-7 (or even 5) decides who is the better of the two, without leaving any doubts. In a game anything can happen, in a Series the good and the bad accumulate, and pronounce the better man or team.
Same with a heads-up situation: anything can happen.
It should be called something like The World Poker Cup. In a Cup you're out with your first loss (read: bust, in poker). Cups are ALWAYS more exciting for this sudden-death aspect, far more exciting than drawn out championships. So, Series is a misnomer, in more ways than one, but the name is now been solidly registered, in more ways than one...
While you're all lamenting the bad breaks that TJ caught, keep in mind the poor fate of 23 year old (I think) Jeff Shulman. He had over 2 million in chips when it was nine-handed. Instead of coasting into final table, televised glory and sliding up the pay ladder, he attacked and played like a monster!
He made the toughest call of the event with 77 after Chris Fergusen (the only stack that could really hurt him) came over the top of Shulman's 200k raise. CF had pocket sixes and flopped a set to take over the chip lead. They say fortune favors the brave, but Jeff found out otherwise. (Although CF was pretty brave himself on this hand).
I'd like to think that I would play as fearlessly as these two if I ever got that close.
RAZO's site
http://www.pokerpages.com:8080/ramgen/video/00wsopday4e.rm
I was talking yesterday with a poker aquaintance who told me of two fairly amazing tournament happenings. One involved a HUGE hold'em tournament held at the Bike a few years back. It was some sort of free-roll promotional thing I think, for which you basically had to walk in the door to qualify. So they got over *900* entrants. The winner? Some guy who had never played hold'em before.
The other involved the WSOP. This acquaintance told me of a friend of his who, some years ago, won an entry into the big event at the WSOP by winning a tournament in his local area, a small town somewhere. He'd never played NL before. So he goes to the WSOP, enters the thing, and just tries to be careful and not do anything really stupid. He ends up placing 4th. (Sorry, I don't know just what year or the name of the player.) It happened largely because he happened to pick up AA four times, and each time had someone move in against him. Those four hands, more than anything else, just lifted him to 4th place.
This year I see this McManus guy was said by Badger to be something like this sort of anomoly.
If I relyed on luck I might as well slit my wrists.
All my life I have had to make my own luck.
For the last 2 months I have consistantly gone in to hands with the best of it against some halfbaked bozo manic(f***ing)ack only to have him spike hia big card on the turn.
Luck I'll tell you about bloody luck it sucks the other guy always has it. THAT is why I have no interest in the LONG RUN I suspect I'll have to play for 1000 years for it to even out on me.
Lifes a bitch and then you die.
L-aboring. U-nder. C-orrect. K-nowledge.
Couple of years ago at the WSOP didn't some guy from Hawaii win the PLHE event? I think the guy was a home game $1-2 player or something like that. How's that for luck?
I can believe it. I would bet that a new, inexperienced player like this would not be wise enough to shove in 2.4 million with an AQo!
This year I see this McManus guy was said by Badger to be something like this sort of anomoly.
I see on the general theory forum that David has clarified who McManus is.
most times when some unknown type does well we find out later on he is an astute business person or some kind of higher thinker. they are able to learn quickly what it takes to win and not dog it in the big pots. plus they have experience reading people and situations. very rarely does a fool win anything other than the lottery.
Well Said Ray. Chris is a very sharp guy. He is also very humble and is the first to admit luck was involved.
Just for the record, my own comments were in no way intended to sugget that Chris had to rely on luck any more than any other WSOP champions. (It's always a big factor in a given tournament, no?) From all that I've heard, it sounds like such a win is quite consistent with his level of ability. I was just relating these interesting anecdotes that I'd heard, with no thought about Chris one way or the other.
Well ans simply stated, as usual Ray. I have a feeling that if you weren't so good at cards and so averse to "kissing ass", you would be a pretty astute businessman yourself.
Good point Ray. From David's comments, it sounds like Jim McManus may have been an example of what you're talking about.
But let's not forget the importance of diet. It helps to go organic! On the other hand, David was seen eating a Hostess Cupcake. If you eat organic produce, and the better Hostess products, you can't miss.
actually i eat organic whenever i possibly can. and there are no better hostess products imho.
"and there are no better hostess products imho."
Than the cupcakes, you mean, right? Yes, I agree. Twinkies are good at a certain stage in life, but the cupcakes -- they're the greatest at any age.
a pox on you john for twisting my words.
Really, check on other topics.
Anybody seen one?
Here's the link to the LVRJ article:
http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2000/May-19-Fri-2000/news/13610700.html
I did not see a LV Sun link yet, but I am sure there will be one.
David
go to cnn.com, click on "local", click on Nevada, click on local tv stations...
.
Check out two accounts of the same WSOP tournament (2K PLHE), including the key hand described in detail by both players. Phil Hellmuth's version is on http://www.poker.casino.com/phil/article.pl/aid=serious_frustration_sets_in . For Dave Colclough's take on it, check out eppa.bigfoot.com under "Dave Colclough tells us how he won $140K at the WSOP".
Not only does it give you the insight into how two players involved in the same hand were thinking (quite rare), I think the two accounts say a lot about the respective characters.
Andy.
Awesome, Andy...that was quite fun.
The facts are very different as well...any takers on whether Phil was in the SB or the BB??
Andy - difference is the typical difference between Brits and Yanks. The understatement and reserve of the Brits (which I prefer) vs the ego and pompasity of the Yank in this case Phil.
I think the overriding theme in the two stories is how seriously Phil takes himself and how it effects his play. He hasen't won in two years and maybe he ought to take a long hard look at himself.
I am proud to say I have never really lost it in the card room. BUT last night I put my fist through my windscreen on the way home. Gosh I felt stupid and it hurt. But I had pent up anger and took it out on my poor Lincoln now I have to pay a few hundred to replace it. Oh well! At lease I didn't make a fool of myself in front of people.
Interesting point. I honestly believe that it is more down to the individual characters, but it's clear that both "fit in" better in their own countries than they would do in the other's.
PS Windscreens repair much more easily than fists, hope your hand is OK :-)
Andy.
In Britain, tilting players bust the right side of their windshield.
Dan
.
'. . Helmuth runs around the casino screaming like a 12 year old, telling everyone what a bad player I was committing so many chips '
I love it.
This is kind of old news, but I just read the Andy Glazer report on the $1,500 Omaha hilo WS tourney. There was one pretty disturbing incident at the final table, when (at 15k-30k) Brent Carter silently pushed 23k into the pot. His opponent, not realizing that the bet had not been completed, announced his call and pushed his chips accordingly. Carter then claimed that his opponent was "calling out of turn" and then pulled back his bet and mucked.
The floorman, a Mr. Elias, ruled in Carter's favor. Now given the forward motion, and the fact that more than half the chips were already in the pot, and not to mention the obvious pure angle-shooting nature of this play in eliciting information to which he is not entitled (something Carter acknowledged in immediately apologizing for the incident afterward), how could this have been allowed to stand? Am I missing something, or was something misreported? Is this another case of separate rules for "name" players compared to the masses?
You didn't miss anything. He's a jerk. Totally in character.
There's also a story in one of TJ's books about him slowrolling Doyle.
what was the story?
I'm not sure about the legalities of posting the whole story from the book,but TJ's opening line goes like this ..."I'm telling this story just to show you how some people act at the poker table.Some act with class, others don't".
Then tells the story about the slowroll.
Then follows up with..."I call that the ultimate slow roll.Here you're playing for $1 million first-place money and you don't have the courtesy to tell a man that he's beat.There are two slimy things that all poker players hate/slow-rolling and asking to see the losing hand."
I agree with you about the slow rolling, but while it is poor behavior it isn't a rules violation, which seems possible here.
I always thought that if you put over half the bet in , you were obligated to complete the bet. Then the other player would have a chance to act. Am I wrong?
I was very surprised by the reports of this incident as I have played at the same table with Brent Carter several times and his actions never seemed out of line. Actually, the ruling may have been even worse than it was reported here. Andy Glazer's report didn't say that he took the 23,000 back and mucked his hand. It implies that he had to leave the 23,000 in the pot but was allowed to muck his hand without putting in the other 7,000. Now either it's a bet or it's not in fixed limit. IMO he was committed to a bet of 30K when he released any of the chips. Sure seems like a cheap shot that may have been followed up by a poor ruling. It would certainly be of interest to me if there is in fact a rule at the World Series that allows a player to not complete a fixed limit bet if another starts to put chips in the pot not knowing that the bet is not for the complete amount. If there is someone following this thread that lives in Vegas, maybe you could speak to Tom Elias about this and post the results.
I have difficulty believing this story as reported.
*Somebody* here must've witnessed what actually happened. As another person commented above, if this kind of angle shooting is standard operating procedure at the WSOP then us folks want to know! Though I don't think it would be very good for the game in general.
This doesn't help much, but I watched the final table and never remember seeing a big stink. No doubt someone will post in 5 minutes that there was a big stink and I'm clueless.
JG
OK, there WAS a big stink and you ARE clueless. :-D
Regards,
Richard
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Please. I had the "joy" of sitting next to him for a full day of a tourney in California. He's a stickler for the rules when they are to his benefit. A wolf in sheep's clothing.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I happened to start at the same table in two WSOP tournaments this year with Brent Carter. In one, we both lasted well past the dinner break. I have to say that in probably 16 hours of playing World Series poker with him, he did nothing that was out of line and actually turned out to be a pleasure to play with. the first time I ever played with him he slow rolled me out of a Legneds Omaha/8 tournament although he claimed he misread his hand. I really didnt care, cause he had the better hand and to me that's all that really matters.
Anyway, it was actually nice to be on the same table with him cause he is such a stickler on rules and procedure that anytime the game may have been slowed up or any slight problem arose with seat changes or a short table, he was quick to make sure it was taken care of and our table ran smoothly.
Other than that, he just sat there for hours without saying much of anything, played his hands, pulled in the pot when he won, mucked when he was beat, and that was it. When he finally got knocked out late in the tourney and a few places from the money, he got up, gathered his things and left. No problems.
I think he rubs people wrong because he comes of as a bit of smart ass and that doesnt always sit well, especially with players from other cultures. But he actually said a few funny things in that smart ass fashion that made me laugh and he was usually correct.
He seems to get bashed a lot and maybe he really is a prick, I dont know him personally at all, but my experience with him was fine and about the only reason I wouldnt want to play with him his because he's just a good player.
Gambler
Daniel explained it much better than I did, but your point is also well-taken.
You can read Andy Glazer's report of the 1.5K O8 hi-lo at http://poker.casino.com. How many poker clubs in the world can you place, in a limit game, over 3/4 of a bet in the pot, and then claim your opponent is "acting out of turn" when calling your bet?
This is not the first, nor will it be the last time Brent Carter is involved in a ruling controversy. He is, and I'm sure he'll admit this, a "bender" of the rules. He isn't interested in fair play, as much as what benefits him, and only him. He will shoot every angle known to man, regardless of how petty it may be. The problem is, most everything he does is in accordance with the rules, it's just plain bad ettiquette, example: Kirk Morrison asked Brent to go outside after this incident. In a tournament, at the 30-60 level, people routinely called a 60$ bet with a black(100) and two reds(5). That way the dealer could easily give two greens(25) change. Well, in the same hand Kirk did exactly this on fifth street and Brent accepted it. On sixth street Brent bet 60 and Kirk called the same way, with a black and two greens. Well, the angle shooter called it a raise because it was more than half the bet. At the time, The Bike had a screwy rule, and Brent made an ass of himself by insulting Kirk, and the game of poker. Now I like Brent, away from the table. At it, he is a complete snake that can't be trusted. He needs to lighten up, it's pathetic already.
Well, unfortunately no one seems to be disputing the report as given by eyewitness Glazer. What is even worse, it seems to me, is the ruling, since it fails both on ethical and logical grounds. For example, it strangely implies that verbal declarations are the only acceptable action at the table, since this was the only player act which was ruled to have actually taken place.
If Tom Elias' ruling is even remotely correct, players at Binions should forever more silently place 90% or so of the correct amount of chips in the pot, and then stare down their opponent and wait for his response.
And if this happened as reported, I wouldn't let Elias be a grade school hall monitor, let alone have him making decisions at the final table of a prestigious tournament.
one off final table - I am in bb with $1400 blinds are 100/200 I have 74o old lady calls - she has never raised or folded A real calling station with $1500, sb calls.
Flop comes 7 4 2 rainbow. sb checks I bet the rest of my chips puting the old lady all but all in (save 100) sb folds.
she shows AT - turn and river were TA - I cashed because there was a bust out at the other table at the same time and I had more chips at the start of the hand.
What's a guy to do.
Lose your money, say nice hand, and walk away.
She should have raised, of course, to steal the blinds, and you would have mucked, but she clearly is clueless.
The luck is what keeps 'em coming back, so sorry to hear abou the loss, but in the long run (which I know you don't believe in) you win.
If you don't kill yourself first.
hang in there.
Made 11th today - they paid 2 tables and 1st was 11K - I was chip leader at the 2nd break and blinded out - last hand (there were at least 6 all in hands before mine and ALL of them won.
I have 55 bb Q5 - I like my hand 346 hit flop - 9 QQQQQQ - I screamed all the way home I would have punched my windshield but I broke it last Fri evening.
I am on perm tilt.
Don't give me any of that long run f***ing crap. I need to live to be 100 to come close to getting even.
Good thing I am independently wealthy or I'd just hang myself.
I had a feeling you wouldn't be interested in the long run. But what else are you asking for? To get real lucky?
If you're stuck that bad, maybe you need to re-evaluate some things about your game. Examine some basic strategies that you follow--like the thing I saw you wrote recently about Jacks, and treating them like eights--and see if they are realy sound, or if they could be costing you money. You play tournaments a lot too, right? I think your variances seem more pronounced if you play tournaments a lot, because you can have a winning "session" practically and barely break even--or even lose money.
Find some soft live games and get your bankroll pumped up.
Anyway, whatever you do, get your windshield fixed. All the flies your swallowing are probably bad luck.
Have you considered the possibility that you _are_ now in the long run and that previous good results were in fact lucky ?
Playing Devil's Advocate,
Andy.
Way to remember: we are weird !!
You could meet her in the parking lot?
NO
I once managed to beat a pot limit game 28 times in a row.Im convinced that this roll continued because both my opponents and I Expected me to win after about the first ten times or so and we all played accordingly.Conversely Ive exaggerated losing sequences by playing like shit because i Knew I was going to lose anyway andcan I play like shit when I feel like it.Ive rarely met a guy who expected to lose who went home disappointed.If you want to get back on a winning track Now rather than when youre ninety eight Id respectfully suggest you forget the shit thats being happening as you see it and go to play with as positive an attitude as you can muster.Good Luck.
I once managed to beat a pot limit game 28 times in a row.Im convinced that this roll continued because both my opponents and I Expected me to win after about the first ten times or so and we all played accordingly.Conversely Ive exaggerated losing sequences by playing like shit because i Knew I was going to lose anyway andcan I play like shit when I feel like it.Ive rarely met a guy who expected to lose who went home disappointed.If you want to get back on a winning track Now rather than when youre ninety eight Id respectfully suggest you forget the shit thats being happening as you see it and go to play with as positive an attitude as you can muster.Good Luck.
Padraig,
I have the positive attitude and am getting very far in tournaments just missing when it really counts. I went through this bad patch for a few weeks last year. I just don't mind talking about it.
I seem to remember you saying you were based in France.
BTW - I'm in Europe next month and planning on playing in Paris aviation club's summer tournament.
I'd be coming over from the UK - would you take the chunnel and train to Paris (I really want to try the chunnel out) or fly in - Is the club near a train station and what hotel is close by.
Thanks,
Id take the train for sure.Allthe hotels in the aviation club brochure are near the club but expensive.I can probably get you something more reasonable if you like.Theres a place near where I live in Voltaire about fifteen minutes by metro from the club where the Irish guys normally stay which costs about thirty five dollars per night.If this is what youre looking for let me know and Ill organise it if you like.
Geesch last time I stayed around the Irish I was hung over for a week. One of my best friands is from County Cork. :-)
Are they booked up in mid to late June. I am in the UK until the 28th so I'll probably be in France from the 18th or so for a few days wife is going to Bath with friends so I have a bunch of days off, so to speak.
Any Idea what tournaments they are spreading and when?
Are you playing?
You can get the full schedule on the eppa website at eppa.. bigfoot.com.If youre wondering what courchevel is its omaha high except the first flop card is free.If youre coming phone me at paris 0143486249.Drinking with the Irish is at your own risk.
It's been five hours. You'll get a hernia.
Dan
Ive been laughing all year.Thank you God for making America.
It was all those bored Europeans that came out here on a gamble for freedom and wealth.
A few days ago lots of people were talking about the 1t women to win the big one. Then the 2 fell hard.
Got me to thinking - a dangerous thing - since outside of poker & movies I have no life. So my comments should be taked in context.
My thoughts are about - other gender aspects of poker are there any good gay men playing - I never ran into one (not that I know of) how about lesbian women. I have seen public shows of affection in poker rooms between women some of which are considered very good tournament players.
Hope I'm not to contriversial here but it is 2000.
good thought rounder
might i add that its much more difficult to pick out lesbians then gay men.
for some reason gay men seem to have a need to flaunt thier feminity.
women are always more effectionate then men between themselves so thats a tough one to judge by.
personnally i never noticed any unuasaul guys while at the WSOP other then they need to take a wardrobe seminar..
jg
Speculating about who fellow poker players sleep with doesn't seem to be very relevant to this forum. I personally like 'sensitive' poker players, whatever the gender. I have also heard some comments and jokes whilst playing that are rude and uncalled for. I'll usually find some way, obnoxious or other, that lets people know that their comments aren't appreciated. Sometimes they even get the point.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Just wondering about the testosterone thing.
A bit touchy Badger. HUH!
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
cire makes a good point...to me it doesnt matter what ones sexaul preference is when we`re at the tables they`re just another fellow player.
Cire I believe also mentioned manners.we definitely need to promote a more respectful mature image.
jg
Judging by the nonstop whinging and whining about food comps or lack of same I had the misfortune to have to listen to at the WSOP I would guess that most poker players are far more interested in graduating to a larger jacket size than the sexual preferences of their fellow diners.
Rounder;
Don't you know it's not politically correct to speak of homesexuals unless the subject is assigning rights or protection to them?
you know, i was curiuos of the same question, rounder, i'm glad you brought it up...just curiousity, really, i have a bunch of gay friends (i AM a music major)and i am also interested in men's studies-particularily why men tend to be more drawn to poker as opposed to women (this is changing...but!), why men sometimes get into the "locker room persona" at the table, and stuff like that. gender/sex bias shouldn't matter at the table, however, unless that person wants it to matter...imho
Young men are typically more aggressive (and are producing more testosterone) then older males this holds true for poker as well as other things criminologists will tell you when a man passes 40 there is very little chance of them committing a violent crime and women who are 52% of the general population are a tiny fraction of the prision population . And since women are not aggressive in the same sense I am making a link to natural aggressivness and poker success.
I am making some assumptions here and not picking on any group but I think it is as valid a debate as deep thinker vs street smart or the right/left brain thing.
Who gives a shit! Get a life if this all you can come up with for a post.
Bruce.
New term: 'Homosycophant' - One who expresses a persistant, illogical, abnormal or intense affinity for homosexuals.
Seven players left, and the big blind is the shortstack, with barely more than 1 big blind (like less than 1.5) left. UTG raises, and the player to his left calls, the player to his left folds, and its up to me, with KQos. I have the second or third largest stack, with about T30K, and the chip leader has about T35-40. Player under the gun is at around T23K, maybe less, but the player to his left is my 2nd position rival, with approximately the same stack as mine. It is $12K to me, with $33K in the pot already. Seventh plays about 120 or 190, first is $1590, and second is about eight or so.
What do you do?
Fold. You are in a situation where you do not want to call a raise without a very big hand. A confrontation is not good for you at this stage as you have more to lose than you have to gain by getting involved with another big stack. Until you get down to 4 or 5 handed, steal where you can, play your big hands of course, but don't get involved as a caller unless you're _sure_ you're winning.
KQ to an UTG raise in big-bet HE is a fold in normal circumstances anyway isn't it ?
Andy.
Pass.This has trouble written all over it.
See above
Even so, it's 40% of your stack to call. This plays more like big bet than normal limit poker.
Andy.
I fold the KQ - this is not a hand I want to go broke with. You are probably behind and the cards you need are more likley in the hands of the players to your right. KQ is badly dominated in these situations by AA KK AK AQ and those are the probable raisers and callers hands.
I agree with all of the above. I mucked.
The board came K-K-rag, and when the action was done and chips were collected, I let my end of the table know what i had. A couple of the folks thought that I should have called.
of course, they were soon out of the tournament, in fifth and fourth, and i went on to chop up the last $2K in prize money with one other player.
I was just thinking about how easy it is to fool yourself when thinking about a tournament loss. As far as I can see there are 4 ways to get knocked out of a tournament.
1) You get drawn out. Guy hits his three-outer or whatever, and you're on the rail.
2) You run into a big hand either behind you or that had limped in in front of you.
3) You get blinded off.
4) You do something horrendously stupid.
While we're all familiar with (4), it's so easy to walk away from the other three saying "damn, I was unlucky". But were you ? In the first case, could you have won a smaller pot while preventing the draw-out with an early bet or raise ? In the second case, should you have realised that the probability of someone having a bigger hand was too high (especially with limpers who like to slow-play) ? In the third case, did you miss a steal opportunity that would have bought you an extra round, and did you finally commit in the right situation ?
And perhaps most important of all, did you miss an opportunity earlier on which would have given you enough chips to ride out or steer around the later problem ? Example, last HE tourney I played, I got blinded down, made my move in the right spot but lost. Yet half an hour before I had folded the best hand when all the signals were (in retrospect) there saying that I was winning. And in the HE/Omaha tournament I mentioned last week, in the end I committed 5-handed with Queens and ran into Aces behind me. But if I had made the right play with the Omaha 2 pair the round before, I would have had enough chips to survive this loss.
When I hear someone bemoaning their luck in RL, I am always happy to encourage this rather than have them thinking along the lines above. You can't always find an answer, sometimes there really _is_ nothing you could have done about a tournament loss, but it is always a better use of your time than spilling the hard-luck story to anyone who will listen - worst of all yourself.
Comments welcome,
Andy.
3 and 4 seem much the same to me.Youre right in that most times the idiot has one way or another got an assist from the storyteller.If we concentrate on what we did do that we shouldnt have or more importantly on what we shouldve done but didnt we may learn a little more and do better next time..
...would you send me just a blank e-mail to billm75@hotmail.com ? I tried to send you something(no spam, never fear) to the address above, but it bounced back to me as undeliverable.
Nice meeting you and Noel in LV, BTW
Hi Bill.My new address is padraigparkinson@voila.fr.Nice to talk with you in vegas and I look forward to having that dinner next time.Good luck.
This is a great post.
A lot of times, we tend to find blame on other's poor play and our bad luck, when we did nothing to make our own good luck.
Weak-tight players do this often.
Perhaps this is a little off topic, but I think a lot of people don't quite realise how much luck there is in a tournament. A perfect example is if you went all in as a 2:1 favorite twice you are actually a favorite to lose one of those hands. A lot of times we aren't fortunate enough to be 2:1 favorites, especially when we have to go all in before the flop when our stack is low. It seems to me that anytime you are all in a call is bad news unless you are better than 2:1 because it's simply not that bad of luck to lose the hand. For example if you had AK you would rather win it before the flop than have a caller since there are very few ways your are a massive favorite. Of course this applies mainly to all in situations but could apply as well if it will cripple your stack. Am I wrong?
Robin ,I have been thinking along the same lines -- the saving grace of raising all-in is that most players are reluctant to call all-in. The odds of surviving more than a few all-in showdowns in one tournament are not very good. Kate
Andy,
These are the things that I think about all the time, but there is nothing you can do about somethings.
For example in your first point. Let's say you are a 4:1 favorite, but you lose. Realize that your opponent will win that one time that you will win four times in that situation. In the short-run, I call it bad luck.
Your second point happens quite frequently to me. I run into a big hand behind me. But, if someone limps in ahead of me I can avoid it, unless I feel that I could win depending on my opponents play and the strength of my hand.
Number three, can be avoided, unless you got busted with a big hand and have just a few chips left. This happened to Barry Shulman at the $500.00 No-Limit Hold'em Tourney in Tunica. He was down to just a $100 chip and ended up winning.
Number four I still do this sometimes.
I won the first satelite for the southern classic thats going to be held next month here in Biloxi. Its a 550 entry 3 day tournament. I was wondering who all is going to be attending.
i was wondering how people should and do play the first couple days of the final event of the wsop. the blinds are so small that it is very different from any tournament that i have ever played and i am having trouble getting a good handle on it.
how do you play deep stack nl in tourney? do you bother to ever try to steal the blinds? do you open raise? if you raise 3 times the bb to about 200 and are reraised to 1000 or so, do you ever just call or do you push all in or fold?
there are huge implied odds, which seems to dictate loose play. especially with position. but the tiny blinds seems to dictate passive trapping and drawing. which is very different from all the nl i've ever played.
what do you guys think?
scott
The key is in my opinion to do the opposite to the majority.The meek may inherit the earth bu.t when its divided among them each portion wont look very big.
but loosening against tight players and vice versa is how one should adjust one's semibluffs. i agree that no limit is usually a game of semibluffs and this advice makes sense in that context.
but with blinds that small, wouldnt my preflop play have a more value bet character? i think i make money 3 ways in small blind nl. stealing after the flop, restealing before the flop, getting a lot of money in as a large favorite. and of these, the last seems to be the most important early. maybe i am missing something.
scott
Just after the start of the tournament last year BobThompson announced his intention to play an extra two hours on day one because of the number of entrants.This suggestion was put to a vote and defeated in a landslide.For anyone not sure about how to play day one particularly the last hour or so this should be all the info you require.
A few thoughts, if you promise not to use this against me in the BAC.
1. Read Super/System section on NLH, but remember that this is for even deeper money and that everyone else has read this too. If you play as aggressively as Doyle recommends, but don't have a monster stack, an intimidating table presence, and great people reading skill, you will report to the rail early.
2. Read TJ's book on PLH/NLH. This has some pretty good, basic strategy for the early stages, but you'll obviously have to adjust as the blinds increase.
3. In terms of card strategy, stick to the srong aces and pocket pairs early on. Suited connectors, as advocated by Doyle, don;t play very wel, IMO. People will tend to overbet the pot on the flop, and you will be more likely to have adraw than a made hand. A medium pocket pair, on the other hand, LOVES it when people overbet the pot on the flop. A sweet little 999, 888, or 777 can double through the unfortunate AK, AA, or KK that overbets the flop.
4. If you are lucky enough to get AA and KK when the money is deep, remember that they make money BEFORE the flop. If you're getting a lot of money in with these hands after the flop against a skilled player, you are often times taking the worst of it.
5. When playing sub-premium or speculative hands (preferably in late position), use the 5 and 10 rule. If it costs less than 5% of your stack, and your opponent(s) have a similar, or larger stack, then go ahead and take a flop. If it coss more than 10% of your stack, you are gambling too much unless you have solid pre-flop value. If the raise is in between 5% and 10%, use your judgment, position, and knowledge of your opponents to decide whether to invest in a flop. Also, don't be afraid to play small or medium pairs out of the blind in a pot that is unlikely to get raised agin before the flop. If you flop a set, you don't really need "position". However, be wary of limping in early position with small pairs if you have aggressive players at your table. You can bleed a lot of chips by limping and folding without seeing a flop.
6. Try to play situations and opponents, as much as cards in the early stages. While it might not be too profitable to steal the smallish blinds, you can pick up a lot of chips against loose, but passive players that defend their blinds weakly (e.g. call a raise, but then check and fold when they miss.) You can also survive the inevitable cold run of cards by restealing from the over-aggressive, late position thiefs.
7. I don't want to sound too much like Rounder, but drawing hands are hazardous to your stack, especially the nut flush draw. If you flop the nut flush draw and call a big flop bet, who is going to pay you off when you hit the turn? It is too obvious. And you'll likely be facing another big bet when you miss. Of course, raising and betting as a semi-bluff is another story. Remember this when you decide tp play hands like Axs, KQs, and JTs. If I feel like gamb00ling on the flop, I would rather play a straight draw as it is more likely to get paid off. Especially the old double-belly buster.
8. If you start off cold and establish a tight table image, use this to your advantage and open up later on. The converse is also true. Don't use up all of your "stealing" equity chasing after the early stage nubbin'. I get a lot less honest from the button as the blinds go up.
Have fun and remember to blame the dealer when you bust out, which is inevitably against a two or three-outer.
Mike - you summed it up perfectly.
I think it is silly to try to steal small blinds early.
Size of bet should be eigther the same every time say 3xbb or different every time. Big mistake to make big raises with AK and smaller ones with AA they are easy to detect if not done correctly.
Like Padraid I like to be different than the masses when they are tight I loosen up and when they tend to be loose I tighten up.
I must admit it is hard for me to loosen up as much as I think I should at times. I am a natural tight/aggressive player and have a hard time playing a hands like A9,KQ and QT when I should.
i raise the same amount whenever i open for a raise.
i agree that the small blinds are not worth stealing. so i wont open with a steal raise very often. but should i then open with a raise with my good hands? i dont want to win just the blinds. i never open limp in nl, but with the tiny blinds i think it may be correct.
but passive play just feels so wrong.
scott
It is wrong. I like them to have to pay for cards I particurally don't want them getting "3" free cards to crack my good hand. I particurally feel this way about big aces. If I have AK I sure don't want those 7-4's spiking pairs on the flop. I want the raise so the weaker aces are more probably my opposition.
Of course when the flop is rags and you have raised and acting last you have a better chance of buying the pot.
Happens all the time.
I don't think it is a good idea to limp with a big hand pre flop.
of course i wont use any of this in the bac. i am only concerned with these ideas out of academic interest. the timing is merely a coincidence.
i understand your point about suited connectors and medium pairs.
although i do not get dealt AA or KK, and thus do not really need to worry about how to play them, i would like to know how you get the money in preflop. a standard open raise only gets it up to a fiftieth of a stack. maybe you'll get lucky and someone will try to reraise. but what if you open in middle position with aces or kings and the button calls. it seems you have failed miserably to get the money in preflop. i think limp reraises might work ok. but can i usually get a raise? i find that limpers scare the shit out of people in nl and they are rarely willing to raise. also, that, of course, allows everyone to limp. so now i have to play my overpair against 6 limpers after the flop? yuck. but i think that is better than increasing my stack by less than 1% stealing the blinds. i need a little more advice on this part. who knows, maybe i will get dealt some big pairs.
i agree that the flop steals and the resteals are very important.
if i flop the nut flush draw then i probably have 12 or 13 or 15 outs. (an overcard or 2 or a gutshot to go with the flush. of course the A may not win the hand for me but...) i think i will usually raise a big flop bet and try to win it there. i can't call a big turn bet if i miss, so i can't really call a big flop bet. especially if i will likely not get paid off. but i suppose bluffing when the flush comes might be profitable, if i call to see the turn for some other reason.
of course you steal more when the blinds are worth stealing. but i noticed in the late stages of the wsop the first raise does not usually take the pot. usually it is the reraise that wins it. is this true?
as for blaming the dealer when i bust out, i dont plan on busting out. but if i do, it will certainly be the dealers fault.
good luck memorial day, if you are playing. i dont think i am going to get up there.
scott
There are many different strategies that work well for different people early on. I suggest your strategy should be dictated by your table composition. Personally, I follow the, Huck Seed, Stu Ungar, Doyle Brunson, Bobby Hoff, O'Neil Longston style of play, which is based on small investment/huge reward. These players will play as many pots as humanly possible, and usually raise making them difficult to read. Now I'm convinced, that if the blinds never escalated a conservative player could NEVER win the big one. Against players like these, you are constantly guessing. They could hit any flop, and make any straight. They could have any two pair, or any set of trips. Then again, they might not! All you can really do is guess. The problem with this strategy is when the skill comes out of the big event by the raising of the blinds these players become handcuffed. That's when a more conservative "move in" style becomes more important. You can no longer afford to take flops with 5-8 and 2-5. Now everyone's range of hands becomes more limited, and boring. Understand this difference-the best no limit player in the world, won't neccessarily be the favourite in the big one. T.J. plays the big one better than any human alive, but he would get destroyed in a live game with the likes of Doyle, Huck, and Stu Ungar if they all bought in for a good amount of money.
so these players have loose open raise standards when the blinds are tiny? that doesn't seem like it would be profitable. how do they react to someone coming over the top of their raise for about 1000? assume the reraiser is a solid aggresive type that notices that i am making loose raises. he may lay down a hand for an all in reraise, but he might have a very good hand and i dont want to be all in preflop with 86s.
could you desribe this stratedy in more detail.
scott
That's the point. you don't know where there at when they raise. They could have AA, or 52o. So lets say you put them on a weak hand and you reraise them b4 the flop. They may muck a weak hand at this point but lets say they make another signifigant raise back at you. Now what are you going to do? he could have nothing, but calling with a hand like AQ is going to be tough. This is the beauty of playing this way when the money is fairly deep. Doing this when its not (like it is in all of the smaller tourneys) would be suicide.
A example would be the hand Huck got knocked out of the WSOP in 99. He limped, got raised by Furlong and then reraised all in. People were shocked when Huck rolled over j8 but he made Noel commit to a fairly weak hand. Not many people would make the call Noel did.
The point of the strategy isn't to steal blinds. All you are really thinking is the implied odds of fooling someone. If the blinds are 25-50 and you raise every hand to 150 with 10,000 in chips you really aren't risking much. If you get re-raised just dump it, it's no sweat off your back. Unless of course the raise is extremelty small and you have a bust'em hand, and I don't mean K-J! I'm thinking more like 5-7. Let me use O'Niel Longston for an ezample, because he is the first person I've seen do exactly this. O'Niel has been raising the 50-100 blind to 300 almost every hand. He gets re-raised-fold. Re-raised again-fold, etc. Then comes the kicker, at this point no one gives O'Niel credit for a hand, so they'll start to re-raise him a little weaker. Then all of a sudden O'Neil raises to 300 again and gets re-raised to 1200. Now O'neil moves in. The other player(if he isn't perceptive enough) thinks, it's O'Neil, he raise every hand!! Ahhh, but he doesn't re-raise every hand. So now this player with 9-9 thinks he has O'Niel and calls. Shortly after, you hear him mutter, "Nice luck I got, I went broke to the maniac. Against everybody else he shows 5-8 then I call him and he has K-K. There was nothing I could do." Ahh, but we know better now don't we. Another benefical thing about raising every hand early, is your hand is disguised but the others become more obvious when you get re-raised. Unless you are playing against an extremely tricky player, you can assume you aren't getting re-raised by the 6-7 of hearts. More likely, it'll be a pair or a big A. Now say you raised UTG with 3-5 of diamonds to 150, and are re-raised to 400. I love this situaiton! You have some idea what your opponent may hold, but he can't have the slightest clue what you hold. That can set you up for a well timed bluff if your opponent misses, or you could flop really lucky and bust'em. All for less than 5% of your bankroll.
I like this situation too but I don't have to be on the button to give it a go. Depending on the way some guys handle and defend their blinds I may only pull this on a "good player" one who won't defend their blinds unless they have the goods.
There are players I absolutely won't raise in the blinds unless I have the goods.
A few weeks ago at the Orleans Fri tourney - I had AA in mid position I reraised a tricky/good player who made a small raise UTG - I had seen him limp with big pairs and put him on being a tricky and good player I found out later he IS.
Flop came A45 - he checked his nut I of course made a fair sized bet he reraised - I had him on A big ace or smaller set well I was wrong - I pushed in and lost.
There is in way in I could have put this guy on a 23. I have done this same play many times so I should have understood what was happening but I just didn't think it would happen to me.
The old "Raise-with-rags, against-AA, flop-the-2nd-nut straight, while the other guy flops top set, get him all-in, and have the board not pair, so you can break him, instead of him breaking you" play.
I must say that I'm a little surprised that TJ-protege Rounder has pulled this play "many" times. This one isn't out of the tight-aggressive playbook.
Actually it is. Sort of. I don't do it much and it is easy to get away from - works best in NL.
You can't play the nuts all day someone might figure out how you play - better for them to think they know you than to know for sure what you are up to.
:-)
Yes, there is something to this type of play early in a tourney.
I was played just this way by a fellow who raised from middle with 96s! I had AKd and called along with the blinds.
The flop was all rags (so I thought). You know the rest. He took a big byte out of my ass.
If the blinds never escalated it wouldn't be a tournament.
Nobody ever won a tournament without getting lucky.
Tournaments and side games are as different(and similar) as tournament and speed chess. It's a different skill set. Kasparov sometimes loses at speed chess(esp. five minute games; Anand is the best, I believe), but he absolutely wipes the floor with everyone in 40 moves in 2 hours games/matches, and has for 15 years.
TJ has at least twenty years more experience playing 'live' NLHE than Huck. Maybe he's been the fish for all those years; you'd know better than I (Bob Ciaffone says not). I think he's capable of adjusting between tourneys and side games.
IMO TJ gets the money from Huck and Stu in a 25-50 NLHE game if they each start with 20K.
"IMO TJ gets the money from Huck and Stu in a 25-50 NLHE game if they each start with 20K."
I assume that if TJ gets to play Stu, there will be a lot of air conditioning around.
.
Is this how to play in live games too?
If you mean pot-limit hold'em, than certainly. It's even more beneficial in live games, the blinds never increase.
"[In No-limit Hold'em Tournaments,] Huck Seed, Stu Ungar, Doyle Brunson, Bobby Hoff, O'Neil Longston will play as many pots as humanly possible, and usually raise making them difficult to read. Against players like these, you are constantly guessing. They could hit any flop, and make any straight. They could have any two pair, or any set of trips."
You stated that the proper strategy against this type of tournament play (which you go on to describe) also works at live poker. Forgive me if I miss something, but isn't the above description that of a typical maniac, in live poker? Which means that your counter-strategy is simply how to proceed against maniacs in No-Limit live poker, i.e.
"A more conservative "move in" style becomes more important. You can no longer afford to take flops with 5-8 and 2-5. Now everyone's range of hands becomes more limited, and boring."
As in all things, it depends. It depends mainly on your table composition. In fact, the best and worst luck of the entire event may be based on who you happen to draw at your table -- and where they are seated in relation to you. You should be able to figure out when and where you can play each type of hand, and what moves you can get by with against whom. Padraig's advice is also highly relevant -- those who have big stacks at the end of Day 1 took some early chances to get there. If you can get doubled-up pretty quick, you can put the fear of God into your weaker opponents and start picking up many pots without a fight. Most of those who make it past Day 1 in good shape have not been sitting on their hands.
Can anyone give me a rundown on weekly or daily small (<$50) buy-in HE or NL tourneys in Las Vegas? I'm thinking of visiting a cousin there for 2-3 days in the middle (Weds, Thurs plus either Tues or Fri.) of the 3rd week of June. Thanks in advance Kate
nt
very curious are there tournies for players over 50....
If so where .
jg
OK Johnny Hale holds a seniors event annually at Crystal Park in Compton California - many events are OPEN but a few are limited to over 50 - I was a bit offended that I wasn't "carded" during this event. :-)
I think this year it is in October 17-24.
Hope to see you there.
I have seen over 50 local tournaments too but they are few and far between.
I would think that if i kept in touch with card player etc.they could keep me informed.
hope they have geritol refueling during intermissions..
jg
Yeah and prunes at the buffett. :-)
Last night, 8 players at final table of a local tourney. 1st place gets a seat in the TOC. I need chips. I have AQo and raise to 800 after 4 call for 200. Chip leader on my left hesitates and calls. One other caller.
The flop is A66. I go all in. Chip lead thinks and thinks (sound familiar?) and calls my 3000 all-in. He can afford it however.
It's heads up and I show AQ. He has A9.
The turn is a 9 ! I'm out.
I guess I should feel good knowing the best tourney player in the world would have played it the same way?
I think the difference is TJ got all he money in before the flop. But I'd probably have done the same thing as you did. Maybe I go all in pre flop with this hand is I was past mid position.
This type of situation is one I have trouble with. Hopefully you guys can help me.
OK, If we assume Nick's opponent does not consider Nick to be bluffing there are a variety of hands he could call with 66, AA, A6, 6X, AK, Ax.
As we see the *only* hand Nick is rooting for a call with is the last one (Ax) and thats exactly what happened and he still ended up losing.
So why risk all of your chips (3000) in this hand? Is it to induce a bad call by your opponent? Or perhaps push him off AK, unlikely as he's chip leader, or a different hand that he could draw out on like a pair?
Maybe I'm being passive\weak but we are all aware of the principle that you should'nt bet if you think you will only be called if you are beat, is this case not dangerously close to that scenario?
Comments much appreciated, Ben.
Depending on position at this time on a tourmanent I like to make my move pre flop with a hand like AQ. Since he didn't and only raised and got heads up you have to ask your self how many hands containing a 6 would he call a raise with. Here is where player/hand reading and knowledge comes in. I can't think of to many but 66 some might call with A6s overvaluing the suited in this situation so the all in bet is a good one - if the A9 is tricky he might be limping with AA AK but I doubt it since there is a lot of money in preflop and a reraise is the right move here to thin the field and maybe win it right there.
He played the hand right and got out drawn happens all the time.
Rounder,
I guess hand reading would lead you to believe you are winning, a luxury you don't always have against poor players :), perhaps not though to AK ? Or someone slowplaying pocket aces and sizes are still a possibility. The other guy being on tilt definitely helps your chances of him making a *poor call* which I mentioned as a possible motive to move ALL IN in my original post. I still think a check-raise would have been the coolest play :) !
Ben.
Ben the chance of this guy sloplaying AA with 4 limpers and a good size raise is slim and none he surely would have played back at the raiser. Sure one of the 4 limpers could have a monster but at this stage of the tourmanent I don't think so - a small raise might be a clue here. I guess AK is the only hand I am worried about - The call with A9 and this board is monumentally bad - this guy must be a horrible player.
It did cross my mind when reading the original post that a check might be OK because with this texture of flop you're either miles ahead or miles behind. And if you're ahead, you should be about as safe as can be. Remember that you must consider all your opponent's possible hands, not just the one he has. Ax has 3 outs, any pair only has two and two big cards like KQ need to catch runner-runner.
All the same I would rather bet. No question I would bet if there was a two-flush on board because if you give an opponent a free shot when he would have folded and he goes on to beat you that's the absolute worst thing that can happen. Plus you should follow up your raises at every opportunity "pour encourage les autres" - make it clear to everyone that they won't get to see 5 cards for no more betting very often. This will discourage them from calling you pre-flop at all which is what you want. AA is the only hand that wants a call pre-flop at this stage of the tournament.
Andy.
I agree with you I only have to ask myself would THIS player just call my $800 raise with and how many of those hands contain a 6.
Frankly the A9 guy must be a very poor player indeed to call a raise with a weak holding like A9 and that many people involved in the hand. I like the all in bet here and it WAS the right thing to do.
You are right Rounder. This guy was on tilt. I knew I had him beat before my all-in (and before my first bet for that matter) and HOPED he was tilted enough to call. He came to the final table a big chip leader and had promptly lost three quick hands and was showing signs of frustration.
Since I had made it expensive to see the flop I pretty much ruled out anyone having one 6. Pocket 66's would be cosmic misfortune. Any bigger starting hands would have played back at my initial raise.
Like someone said this kind of play is all too common and not worth mentioning except it so resembles the final hand of the WSOP.
Andy,
>you're either miles ahead or miles behind. And if >you're ahead, you should be about as safe as can be. >Plus you should follow up your raises at every >opportunity "pour encourage les autres" - make it >clear to everyone that they won't get to see 5 cards >for no more betting very often
Yes I agree with all of your reasons above which would indicate a bet. There is no mention of suits so I don't know about a flush draw so lets ignore it for this conversation.
I don't question a bet here. Obviously your going to be playing quite fast at this stage of the tournament but ALL IN? It seems either you can lose to a better hand or you potentially miss out on a bigger pot when your opponent folds? So do you think a substantial bet here is better than all in?
Ben.
I don't.
When your stack is around the size of the pot or smaller, a bet less than all-in looks weak and is more likely to be called or even raised. There are occasions where you can save a few chips but I don't think this is one.
Andy.
But your raise regardless of size is going to be called if you were beat anyway ('miles behind'). And if your raise gets a call or a re-raise than no harm because you could be still 'miles ahead' and maybe even have induced a bluff. I guess though with 2 opponents a smaller raise may not be big enought to get rid of them and at this stage of the tournament and for other reasons the all in is correct.
Thanks for all the responses. Ben.
Hi all,
I'll be hosting a home tourney this weekend.
Lots of players will be in their first tournment and som never played hold'em.
The game will be very loose, very weak and very passive. Very rare pre-flop raising.
2-3 players will half know what they are doing. They are loose though.
I'm not a big experienced tournment player. I've read lots of books on HE and I've read TJ's Championship PL NL Hold'em. I beat the game we play in every month. This is a tourney.
What sould I change about my stategy? looser pre-flop I guess...
Overall?
Any comments appreciated.
BTW, the game will be no-limit HE. Blinds start at 5-10 with T1000. Doubling every half hour. There's a rebuy of half the buy-in for T300 chips (after 45 min.).
Thanks...
Theprince00
Make $money$ not war...
Guess the thing here is you will have to have the best hand to win. Play good cards and you should be better off than the newbies. But don't be discouraged if these calling stations suck out on you with regularity.
The thing going for you is you understand NL and this is a much bigger advantage than limit with the same crew. NL you can bully your way around a bit more having to show down a lot fewer hands.
Good luck.
The rebuy in your tournament isn't worth the value. You're paying half the price for 3/10 the chips. Additionally, the rebuy is worth even less compared to the blind size than it would have been at the beginning of the tournament.
All that aside, remember that one mistake can throw you out of a NL tournament. You can be looser than normal, but never bully your way through calling stations. Wait until you have a good hand and let their natural tendencies work against them.
Dan
I'm about even in chip count with the other guy who is not very experienced in heads up - were playing for 1st place and money in a limit hold'em event.
Blinds are 2k 4k I get AK in SB and raise. BB calls.
Dealer puts down the flop and proceeds to burn and turn to the river like one of us is all in.
I say hey we still have chips. I put down my AK and the guy mucks and says you win.
I think whe should I argue with this guy - if I were him I'd insist on the turn and river coming back and shuffeled then betting the flop turn and river as we would normally do. Dealer should have called the floor and gotten a ruling.
Was I unethical. Ididn't persue it cuz he mucked.
OH well! I won anyway.
Why did you show your cards before a decision on how to continue had been made?
The hand was over - I said "hold it we have chips" as the river went down - and showed my AK (there was an A on the turn). But it happened so fast.
I decided to shut up and not give him a 2nd chance to beat me. Maybe my bad. I don't know for sure that's why I made this post.
The guy mucked really fast too.
I think the point that Ben was making was that the hand wasn't over. Because the dealer made a mistake of burning and turning two cards,the TD should have been called and those cards should have gone back. You showed too early. The ironic thing about it is your opponent probably could have asked to have you penalized for it.
Dan
and you said the ace came on the turn.
if the floor came over, the cards would have been put back in the deck and he would know exactly where you stood (nut nothin on the flop). as you were the one who realized you had chips, I think it pretty foolish to turn your hand over.
Consider that Noel busted his final opponent by getting him to call all in as a 10-1 dog in an unraised(preflop) pot, as opposed to Ferguson going all in preflop with what he absolutely knew to be the worst hand, because "it was time to gamble".
For that matter, Huck and Seidel also went all in preflop with the worst hands, as well....(Seidel can be excused as he DID have AQ and he was shortstacked; his "bad beat" was simply a fantasy created by the writers; the order the cards come out in a "showdown" is NOT a bad beat).
Yeah, I'm trollin'; just bought a coupla Ice Cube CDs..
I was just thinking about something today. Would A-T or A-J have made a difference? If Ferguson "sucked out" with either of these two hands, would it really have been such a bad beat? The odds are practically the same, but at what point does it become correct for Ferguson to call all-in without looking like someone who got lucky?
Dan
I think that point comes when CF would not say afterwards "I felt it was time to gamble".... :)
If Furlong had done what Ferguson did wed never hear the end of it.Furlong eliminated everyone in sight with the best hand each time.Furthermore if Seed did to Furlong what Furlong did to Seed the socalled experts would still be looking for superlatives to describe the play.The exit might also have been a little more dignified .
If Furlong had done what Ferguson did we d never hear the end of it.Furlong eliminated everyone in sight with the best hand each time.Furthermore if Seed did to Furlong what Furlong did to Seed the socalled experts would still be looking for superlatives to describe the play.The exit might also have been a little more dignified .
In '94, with three players left in the WSOP final, H. Vincent looked at a flop of A-K-Q with two diamonds. He raised a bet with half a million, all in. Spadavecchia thought, then mucked. Vincent threw his card face up,-pair of tens! Brilliant or just damn lucky? ************************************ He finished second.
Hugh was possibly the worst player I have seen at the final table OR the best. Haven't figured it out.
He made a lot if raises with weak hands reminded me of a loose LL player who got to the final table.
I believe that hand went like: Spad raised preflop ~60K in the SB; Hugh called in BB. Spad. bet ~120K on the flop, Hugh immediately raised 500K, setting Spad all in. Hugh still had ~400K left.
Hugh said later that he absolutely knew Spad would fold, and that he had picked him several other times.
Hugh finally ran out gas against Russ Hamilton in the headup. Russ was so by far the best player that day at the final table it was sad, same as Dan Harrington the following year.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Where do you get 10-1. He had outs to two sixes and two Queens.
I meant 10-1 dog went all the money went in, on the turn. It had been checked down to that point. 1 card to come, 44 unseen cards w/ 4 outs for Goehring.
You're right. I had only heard about the hand and thought the money went on the flop.
I have never played in the WSOP final event so it is very easy for me to be a Monday morning quarterback and be very analytical about things in retrospect, but anyway this is a real hand from day #1 this year. My friend has about T6500 and the blinds are 100-200. The largest stack at the table has ~ 34000. A seemingly solid player two from the big blind initiates the action with a raise to 600. He has T18000. Everyone folds and my friend one away from the button looks down and has pocket kings. He after hesitating very briefly moves all in. The blinds all fold and the initial raiser promptly calls. Of course my friend is up against pocket aces and he is quickly history. The flop comes queen baby baby and there are two more blanks. There are obviously many ways to play a hand but what puzzles me, does my friend really have to go broke on the hand? Let's say before the flop he reraises 1500 and the initial raiser moves all in. Can he get off the hand? There is now 8900 in the pot and it is costing my friend 4400 more to call. If you know your opponent has pocket aces you certainly aren't getting the right price, but against a relative stranger have you already comitted too many chips to throw away your hand? Does your opponent always have pocket aces especially with a superior chip position in this situation? Would he play jacks or queens any differently? Now let's say your opponent just smooth calls your raise. It seems to me with that flop no matter how you play you probably will wind up comitting all your chips. This is what makes no limit so difficult and I guess this is what separates TJ from the rest of the world. Questions and comments are appreciated.
Bruce
I dont really think your friend had too much choice here.With only 6500 hes already in a bit of trouble.The other guy has enough chips to push him around with several hands if hes a good player.Even if your friend does guess it right and throw away his kings he may need more than a monday morning qb to tell him what to do next.
Sometimes you just have to go broke. If you can muck the kings in that situation, either you are clairvoyant or have no chance of winning the tournament.
I don't think your friend had much choice. The guy that initially raised it with the larger stack can put a lot of pressure on the small stack. If your friend reraised before the flop he would be committing a lot of chips and not get the information he may have wanted. The guy that initially raised may just call the reraise and put him all-in on the flop anyway.
Let's say that this is what happened. Your friend reraises $1500 and gets called. Now, his stack is $4400. The flop comes with rags and now the original raiser bets $4400. How can he get away from his hand? Anyway, when you have a pair of Kings, you're hardly ever up against a pair of Aces.
But you have pointed out his only chance: a pot-sized reraise instead of an all-in. It gives him one more opportunity to make a read before the flop and possibly one more opportunity to get "lucky" after the flop in the event an Ace hits. Bruce made the comment that this separates TJ from the rest of the world. Well, I don't know in what round this hand occured, but in his book, TJ points out that K-K isn't a big enough hand to go broke with in the first round. Food for thought, although realistically I know very few people who could get away from K-K in this scenario.
Situation: No Limit tournment, after rebuy period. Approximately 40 players left out of a field of 80. Blinds are $150/300. I am in the BB with $2500 in chips after posting. This is one of the smaller stacks. Two players limp in: The 6 position is a solid conservative player who has shown down only good cards and the caller in the cutoff seat is an aggressive tricky player. Both have medium sized stacks of about $4-5K.
I am in the BB with K7o. The flop comes K 9 3 with two diamonds. Should I bet out and commit to the hand? I will have to bet most of my stack if I lead out. Also what about trying to check raising the cutoff seat who may well bet out with anything if it is checked around to him. I would probably fold if the conservative player bets.
My real problem here is my stack size. Is this a good enough situation to justify commiting it. If I check and fold, I will still have several rounds of play to find a better situation.
Thanks, Calvin
As you describe it you have a good situation here. You did not say anybody raised preflop and it is not clear how many opponents you have. Is the SB one of them? If you only have two opponents you could go all in here, or bet a smaller amount hoping for callers - something like 600? This kind of flop could easily hit a blind hand big so even another Kx hand will think twice about calling if you bet aggressively.
Your main concern: is there another King out there? Usually a big kicker King hand would have raised the blinds. There is the possible flush draw also but not too concerning with only 2 or 3 opponents. You very likely have the best hand here. Run with it.
How likely is are these players to bet out on either a legitimate draw, or a better hand, or a weaker hand (e.g., second pair or a pure bluff)? How likely are they to check each category of hand? If you can answer these questions about each player, then you will probably know exactly what your best play is.
Don't forget, if you simply go all-in on this flop, you will either win the T1000 that is out there, or get called by a hand that you are way behind. You will seldom get called by a flush draw or other hand that is behind, but not way behind, you.
So, which play has the best opportunity for you to make money, yet do so safely? If it's betting out, then go for it. If it's checking and seeing what they do (which I suspect it often will be), then do that instead.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think checking would be a mistake here. Unless it is to check raise a player you think might try to steal. Not a good time to give free cards.
I think checking is legitimate here. There aren't too many free cards that worry you. As Greg says, if you bet you're only likely to get called by something that beats you. This is a good spot to check to see who does what. If the conservative player checks and the tricky player bets, you can raise. If con bets and tricky folds, you'll just have to judge it as best you can. If there's a bet and a call (or a raise) then folding looks best.
If everyone checks and a blank comes on the turn, you may be able to bet and extract a call from someone who puts you on a bluff (depends on your table image).
I think it's too risky to bet in first position here.
Andy.
Made it through the blinds with 4 chips left, blinds are 1 and 2. One to the right of button - pick up As 2s 4 5s - two limpers - do you just call and see the flop or do you raise all-in?
Tournament Omaha - full table - can 8d 9d Th Jh be played from any position except blinds?
Do you mean Omaha high or Omaha eight or better?
Regards,
Richard
Also need to know how many players are left and how many chips they have. Also need to know how close you are to the money and how many players may be "blinded out" before it's up to you again in the blinds. Also need to know how long it will be before the blinds increase.
As 2s 4 5s is a good Omaha high/low hand at a full table in a ring game. In a tournament situation it can be trouble. Whenever you enter tournament action when you have a small stack you're putting yourself at risk because someone probably will put you "all in." To be honest, when I voluntarily play a hand with a low stack, it's usually a hand similar to (or even a little better than) the hand you have described. The (voluntarily played) hand becomes memorable because, since that situation is what got me knocked out of the tournament, I'm thinking about it all the way home.
With As 2s 4 5s in a tournament you can expect to win the low half of the pot about half the time and the high half of the pot maybe ten percent of the time. Adding those, you win half the pot about sixty percent of the time. With a big or medium stack, the hand is worth the risk of some of your chips. With a small stack....well, it depends.
If you were under the gun, one before the blinds, in an Omaha high/low tournament, you probably should go all in with that hand, because you're not likely to get a better hand on the next deal (when you will have the blind). But in the position you have described, your best move is probably neither to call nor raise. Instead, fold.
The two limpers may have cards similar to yours and be drawing for both high and low, in which case you may get quartered for low (all the more reason to fold here). If you hit your draw for the spade flush, the two limpers will probably miss their draws for high and may fold (all the more reason to take a chance and raise here).
If you fold, and the blinds don't double, you can make it through one more set of blinds and still have a chip left. If you call, and then fold if the flop is unfavorable, then you won't have enough to get through the next blind cycle. All things considered, calling here seems like a poor choice.
Tournament Omaha - full table - can 8d 9d Th Jh be played from any position except blinds?
Answer: Not unless you have a big stack and are making a move against a small stack or blinds that will likely concede.
Buzz
I don't get it, if you fold that hand with only two bets left, what will you put your money in with??? I assume I have a better hand than the other two limpers, and I want to get value for my MONSTER hand. I don't think I can think of a situation where it is ever correct to fold that hand, in a tournament or live game. A case can be made for just calling though. If the flop comes K-J-9 you can escape with your last bet. Yet still, with a suited ace and four wheel cards working for me, I'm willing to go broke with that hand.
The 8-9-10-J? well that depends on how well you play the game. Personally, I always play that hand unless it's raised, and sometimes I still play it. I'd much prefer having a 9-10-J-Q though, you'll scoop more often with this hand. If you are new to Omaha, this hand is best avoided, if you consider yourself an expert player, than this hand will be profitable for you in most situations.
I must say though, I can't understand the logic behind folding a moster hand like A-2-4-5 with a suit when you only have two bets left. I'm afraid if you give up on hands like this, you are giving up on winning the tournament. That should be your main objective, first place. All things considered, you just can't possibly consider throwing this hand away.
Thank you for responding. Maybe I'm wrong.
In my opinion, the issue here is "timing." If the tournament is at the stage where players are being eliminated the timing is not right to play any hand in the situation described (four chips at the two-four level, two limpers). I'm assuming the tournament has not just started and that the chips are maybe $500 chips. (The original poster did not supply this information).
IMO survival is the key with a small stack at this stage of the tournament. On the button if I thought a raise would knock out the blinds, then I might make a move with almost any hand. However, in the described situation there are two limpers. They're not going to fold to a raise here, even if the blinds do. That's just my opinion based on my experience. I don't have a lot of experience. I've probably played in about one hundred tournaments, mostly smallish (four to twelve tables). I expect to at least make the final table (and be in the money) every time I play in a small tournament - and I usually succeed.
What hand would I play in this tournament situation? Well..... I'd probably reluctantly play AA23 double suited, even though I probably shouldn't.
However, I like your style. Go for it - probably get knocked out - but maybe increase your stack size. Gotta admire that and I'm not being sarcastic here. As an aside I must note if all my opponents play like that I'll continue, in my quiet way, making the final table week after week. But I still honestly admire your style. It's like that phrase in the Kipling poem titled "If." Something about risking it all on one toss of the dice so as to be a "man." Gotta admire that. Something just holds me back - call it lack of courage, (but I would save my courage for a more appropriate life situation) or call it common sense. Whatever. Something just holds me back from knowingly making low percentage poker plays. As noted, I would play this hand one before my blind. (I'd also probably play it two, and maybe three before my blind, all depending - just not in the situation described). But maybe I'm wrong here.
Any hand depends somewhat on the situation, on your table image, and on your opponents. My goal is simply to play the percentages as I understand them, and in so doing to make "correct" plays. In the case of the first (very nice) hand, the percentages are correct to play the hand, but only if you can reach into your pocket if you lose. The reason is that if you decided to play this hand two times in a row, the most likely scenario is that you would be knocked out either the first time or the second time. Thus the odds are not in your favor.
You wrote "I'm willing to go broke with that hand." Yep. That's likely what will happen if you play it much in the situation described.
The other hand, J-T-9-8, single suited, is definitely a low percentage hand at Omaha high/low. I don't play Omaha-high-only. However, after consulting my book of tables for Omaha-high-only it appears (if I'm reading correctly) the hand has an average expectancy at Omaha straight high in a full game. Of course it would depend on the number of players.
regards to you
Buzz
I must be missing something here.Is eight prize bigger than third in America or something?
"Is eight prize bigger than third in America or something?"
Are you asking if eighth prize is bigger than third prize? If so, the answer (so far as I know) is no.
But what has that got to do with the price of tea in China?
Getting to the final table gets you a shot at first prize, which is where most of the money is. Getting knocked out of the tournament gets you nothing.
Losing your chips by playing hands in situations where a fold might be wiser tends to get you knocked out of the tournament. Just my opinion.
regards,
Buzz
I think his point was that it will be too much of an uphill climb if you have too much of the "survival attitude". What he's saying is, is that you'd be better off going broke 12th sometimes and finishing third sometimes, rather than 8th everytime. 8th doesn't pay very much, and I'm afraid that by playing this tight you simply won't have much chance to finish as high as third. Personally, I think you should set new goals for yourself, how about winning the tournament? You've already proved to yourself that you can consistently make the final table, so why not take the next step? 8th's are fine and dandy, but winning the tournament is a lot more fun, and MUCH more profitable. So what if you only make 1 out of 6 final tables, maybe you'll get there with enough chips to win it this time. I'm no mathmetician, but it seems obvious to me that 6 8th's won't add up to 1 first. Don't be so afraid of getting knocked out, it'll happen. Just concentrate on making the right play to WIN the tournament, who knows you may be surprised with your results.
Daniel - Thanks for the advice. I can tell it's good advice for me. At least it rings true. Of course my goal is not to just make the final table, but to win the tournament. However, perhaps I have been going about it incorrectly.
The way I get down to a small number of chips, if that happens to me, is by taking a calculated risk and losing (perhaps by playing a hand such as that described in the original post). Then I am left with a tiny stack of chips surrounded by stacks of various sizes - some mountains, some medium stacks and other tiny stacks.
Once I am down to a small stack, at some point I probably will be dealt another nice looking hand, maybe ace-deuce plus another supporting wheel card or two, and with the ace suited to boot. I've been there many times. It's an all too familiar hand because that's one of the situations where I lose the tournament, playing a hand like that without enough chips in poor position.
Note that being on the button is not advantageous here. With the blinds still to act, you don't have position yet. And when you do have position, it won't help much since you'll be all in on your first bet or call, probably with one opponent, even if you do hit the flop.
Of course, roughly half the time when I play a hand like that (against several opponents) I magnify my stack size. But the other half of the time I'm all finished (knocked out of the tournament), whereas if I play my position and opponents more than my cards at that point in the tournament, usually I end up in the money.
I have tried just calling. But then (even if neither of the blinds puts me "all in"), if I miss the flop and fold, I am faced with an even more dismal future, with no leverage left at all. And then when I do hit I have lost the opportunity to maximize my profit, because the other players will probably not hit and will fold, or if they do hit for low, then I'm getting quartered. I've been there.
By the way, since the value of the hand is mostly on the low side, it doesn't seem as though it would do particularly well head to head - maybe average-ish.
The last time I played a hand like this in a situation like this, I came away convinced that I had acted foolishly. It's hard to shake that notion.
But I don't know. Once you get down to a small stack it's pretty tough to make a comeback (although I have done it - but just enough to be a bridesmaid - I agree it would be better being the bride). At some point you have to go for it. Originally I thought this was not the point. I'm still not convinced it is. But what do I know?
regards,
Buzz
" At some point you have to go for it. Originally I thought this was not the point. I'm still not convinced it is. But what do I know? "
Yes, I am going to play this hand, the point is whether to call and try to see the flop while saving two chips or whether to commit and maybe get semi-healthy.
Max - Well I seem to be standing alone on this issue. And to tell the truth, it would be tempting to play this (very nice) hand.
If you simply must play it, then I think you should raise all in and stand up. That way when you lose you can get out faster.
regards,
Buzz
I was just trying to point out that placing survival regardless of the size of your stack too high on your priority list jeopardises your chances of winning real money.This hand would look monstrous to me in this spot.
Thanks, Padraig. I see your point and I agree with you that one needs to aim at first place. It's the strategy and the tactics where we are not exactly seeing eye to eye.
I believe that to bet the nuts in Omaha high/low, first you have to get the nuts. Paraphrasing, to win the tournament, first you have to get to the final table. Thus my strategy has been first get to the final table, and then take bigger risks. The tactics follow directly from the strategy: Don't unneccessarily put your stack at risk.
It seems that your strategy is to get to the final table with a stack big enough to immediately be a force to be reckoned with. The tactics also follow directly from the strategy: Take risks to push your edges so as to increase your stack size before you get to the final table. (I can see that it would be more advantageous to have a larger stack).
Perhaps I have over-simplified, but that seems to me to be the gist of it.
You probably are a much better poker player than I am.
If you could convince me, that boldly betting the posted hand would improve the chances of winning the tournament, then I surely would advise boldly betting the hand. But to be very honest with you, you have not yet convinced me. Not only do I think betting that hand would not increase Max's chances of winning the tournament, but I'm fairly certain that if Max followed your tactics twice in a row (with the same hand - to increase his stack even more) the odds are favorable that his place in the tournament room would soon be on the rail.
I would greatly appreciate your showing how betting that hand in that situation would increase Max's chances of winning the tournament. I just don't see the logic. And I am completely in agreement with you that the goal should be to win first place, not eighth (nor even third) place.
Thanks,
Buzz
"I must say though, I can't understand the logic behind folding a moster hand like A-2-4-5 with a suit when you only have two bets left. I'm afraid if you give up on hands like this, you are giving up on winning the tournament. That should be your main objective, first place. All things considered, you just can't possibly consider throwing this hand away. "
Thanks, Daniel. I raised all-in. Only one low card came on the flop but on the turn I had a draw for a 'hogger' which was 15 chips (since the blinds both folded) which would have given me some ammunition and new life!
"I had a draw.......which would have given me some ammunition and new life"
I rest my case.
Buzz
A245, 2 limpers, I limp and see the flop. As Daniel pointed out, you can escape with 1 bet if the flop comes high and you have no real draws. I think that this benefit outways the benefit of reducing competition by knocking out the blinds. It also outweighs the benefit that when you do win, you will win more by going all-in preflop than you will by betting or calling on the flop or later. However, I could be wrong, as I think it is likely to be close, and it may be better to raise for the 2 reasons given.
89TJ double suited is not a good hand IMO. Because of the nature of hi-lo, many of it's winners for high feature 3 low cards on board, and thus it doesn't win that much. Also, none of the flushes are the nuts, or even close, so if more than 2 or 3 people saw the flop, then many (most?) of your completed flushes will lose to a higher flush.
This hand is primarily good for heads-up play, either when attacking the blinds first-in from late position, or when defending your blind. Heads-up you're not too worried about flush-over-flush, and your nut-worst low of 78 will sometimes save you half the pot (like when your opponent has a high only hand, or his low gets counterfeited), so it suddenly has a lot more value than it does multiway. Also, you're less likely to split for high with another straight.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg -"A245, 2 limpers, I limp and see the flop."
If you used two of your four chips to limp and I was in either of the blinds with a medium or large stack and any kind of reasonable hand, here is what would happen: I would immediately raise. You would not have the option of saving your last remaining two chips if you did not like the flop. It would not be personal, just tournament tactics. You would be living or dying on this hand. (And at least half the time you'd be dying.)
regards,
Buzz
That would be bad tournament tactics. It's silly to raise with a mediocre hand just to put a puny stack all-in in this situation. If you are in the blind with a mediocre hand and good chip position, you shouldn't go out of your way to burn up chips to get this player all-in. The player will be forced to go all-in anyway well over 50% of the time. It's not worth it for you to put a raise in. What if the first limper re-raises??? Now how do you like it? Also, what if the flop comes Kh-Qh-6h? The A-2-4-5 may fold which is fine. If he was all-in he'll backdoor a low enough to make it a close call as to whether he is making an error in folding on the flop.
Daniel - "That would be bad tournament tactics. It's silly to raise with a mediocre hand just to put a puny stack all-in in this situation."
Maybe so. However, that's not all a raise in this situation would accomplish. And, good tournament tactics or not, that's what some opponent generally does to me when I enter the fray hoping to save a chip or two.
"If you are in the blind with a mediocre hand and good chip position, you shouldn't go out of your way to burn up chips to get this player all-in."
Good point. That makes sense. But I wouldn't be burning up chips just to get this player "all-in." I like to raise from the blind at least once (with a reasonable hand and a reasonable stack size) just to let my opponents know what might be in store for them. This might not be a bad situation to raise (and then check).
"The player will be forced to go all-in anyway well over 50% of the time. It's not worth it for you to put a raise in. What if the first limper re-raises??? Now how do you like it?"
Another good point. I probably wouldn't like it unless I had a pretty good hand myself. However I do think it unlikely that one of the limpers would raise here (and he might be making a mistake if he does).
"Also, what if the flop comes Kh-Qh-6h? The A-2-4-5 may fold which is fine."
Wrong. It's not fine. If the flop comes Kh-Qh-6h, the holder of A-2-4-5 would be correct in folding. I want my opponents making wrong decisions.
"If he was all-in he'll backdoor a low enough to make it a close call as to whether he is making an error in folding on the flop."
He won't backdoor a low much. It would not be an error for him to fold to a flop of K-Q-6. If you don't believe me, get a deck of cards, take out A-2-4-5-6-Q-K (suits don't matter for this), shuffle, and then turn the rest of the cards over two by two. See how many of those two card combinations give you a backdoor low. Even with that great draw, I think you'll probably hit slightly less than one third of the time, and with two limpers plus a blind or two, all the hits would not necessarily win the low half of the pot.
Let's say no one raises and two limpers plus both blinds stay to see the flop. With a flop of Kh-Qh-6h, everyone is not going to stay for a post flop bet. Most likely scenario here is one of the big or medium stacks bets and everyone else folds. Now the holder of A-2-4-5 is risking two chips to win nothing, which he will do about one third of the time. (The other two thirds of the time there will be no low).
But, all right, if everyone stayed after the flop it would be close and would be reasonable call in a ring game. I think you really need a lot of luck if you make calls such as this in a tournament.
And may you have it. Lots of tournament luck to you. Even if you make the correct decisions, you still need some luck.
Thanks for your ideas and your consideration of mine.
Buzz
Correction.
You hold A-2-4-5. Flop is 6-Q-K. You make a low less than one time out of four. (246/990 = 0.248)
Buzz
"89TJ double suited is not a good hand IMO. Because of the nature of hi-lo, many of it's winners for high feature 3 low cards on board, and thus it doesn't win that much. Also, none of the flushes are the nuts, or even close, so if more than 2 or 3 people saw the flop, then many (most?) of your completed flushes will lose to a higher flush. "
I didn't play it because I was in early position. But it looked so pretty because it was two suited connectors. It turns out I would have won a nice pot (flop 7 T J; turn T). Also I noticed that a good player, Nino Pignato, showed down some similar hands; and now I see that Daniel Negraneau isn't just dismissing this hand. I feel that perhaps an excellent player can play this hand for it's upside potential, i.e. get away cheaply if missed, extract the maximum if hit.
Yes, and I was surprised to see Daniel say he likes this hand. Maybe the difference is due to most of my omaha8 experience being from loose games, and most of Daniel's being from tight games (this is a guess, but I'd be willing to bet on it with most anyone but Daniel). In tight games, any hand might be reasonable in Omaha IF (big IF) you're able to outplay your single opponent postflop by a pretty good margin. Even if you're not that far ahead of your opponent in postflop skill, hands tend to run closer in value heads-up, much more so than they do in multiway pots. In loose games, you pretty much have to make the nuts to win, and 89TJ doesn't make the nuts very often.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Excellent point, and extremely accurate. In the Omaha games I typically play, people usually play at least a hand with some resemblance of playable hand. You don't normally see 6 people limp in, usually it's two to four handed depending on whether or not there was a raise. I like the 8-9-10-J against players that play descent starters, mostly low hands. I hope to play a four handed pot against A-2-4-5, A-Q-3-6, and A-2-7-8. Not only will my hand be live, but there would be fewer low cards for my opponents to hit. In fact, I just scooped a monster pot about an hour ago with the 8-9-10-Q. It was 5 way action, and I ended up putting in three bets pre-flop (not reccomended:-) I felt like gambling and it was my last hand of the session so I wasn't going on tilt. I flopped gin, 8-9-J, and won myself a $4000 pot. Good way to end the session...till they told me I had to kill it and proceeded to give back $2000 of the pot in the next lap around the table:-)
"In fact, I just scooped a monster pot about an hour ago with the 8-9-10-Q. It was 5 way action, and I ended up putting in three bets pre-flop (not reccomended:-) "
This is one of those "Kids, don't try this at home" plays.
Hi all,
I had a question concerning the hand that eliminated me from a tournament (NL HE) I played on saturday.
We started with T1000. Blinds are now 50-100 but they are gonna double in 5 minutes. I've gotten crap all day but managed to steal a few blinds here and there but I'm down to T500 after getting rivered by a loose one. He called a T400 raise pre-flop that "/$/"%%$? with pocket 5s.
So I'm on the button, all fold to the player to my right who limps in. He's super loose. I have A-Q off. I decide here is the time to take a stand. I could easily steal those blinds and the limp in. I know the blinds and think they respect my raises too much so thay can surely fold. So I go all-in. Unfortunately, the little blind calls, so does the limper. The flop comes 9 10 Q all spades. I'm thinking top pair top kicker, I like my chances. But now they both go all-in. Of course the LB has K-J off and the limper has K-J spades - straight flush. But that's not the point. Just wanted to give the whole story here.
So how do you like my all-in pre-flop here. You think I should have waited for the flop and just put in a smaller 2-3 times the BB raise or maybe just limp in? I was raising ple flop around 5 times the BB all day so a 2-3 times the BB didn't seem normal to me. I thought I had a good chance of stealing too. Anyway if they both had slowplayed the flop ang checked it I would have gotten all-in. But they could have shown strength and since I was last to act I would have probably folded. Leaving me with pocket change but still breathing...
Any comments appreciated.
Make $money$ not war
theprince00
Don't worry about it. You did the right thing and were unlucky.
Andy.
Look at it this way ... you really do want them to call your all-in bet ... they are drawing rather slim as they cancel each other out somewhat. But, alas, this is poker and anything can happen. I bet if you put it on a simulator, you would like your odds. Don't change a thing.
FeniStar
thanks all
it's nice to know I played it well...
theprince00
Based upon what they had, you were a strong favorite to win this hand. Going all in? Probably not the best play. But let's assume you raise 200 and you're down to 200. You gonna fold that last 200 with top pair, top kicker?
Straight flush? terrible luck. You'll get 'em next time.
End result, you're gonna lose on this hand no matter how you play. Alas.
Dan
I think that going all-in is the right play. You will be committed to this hand and you want to make it as difficult as possible for the blinds to call.
Andy.
Makes sense to me.All in gives you a better chance of winning uncontested or at least only having to get the hand to stand up against only guy.
Me too. This time I'm in complete agreement with Padraig.
With the amount of chips you had left, you had no choice. All-in preflop is the right play. Look at it this way. T.J. lost with an AQ at the WSOP and he had the best hand too.
Pot limit tournament, buy ins over, money quite deep 500,000 in play, 2 equal blinds of 600.
Player 1 UTG with about 25000(inexperienced but coached by his brother, a solid player)calls 600, player 2 (solid) calls, player 3 holding about 15000 raises 3000. UTG reraises 9000, player 2 mucks. Player 3 thinks a moment then sends KK into the muck face up.
UTG says "good fold" and shows AA.
Questions:
1) Is it reasonable to fold the KK after a limp reraise from UTG(in the absence of information that would suggest that the UTG is capable of an audacious bluff)?
2) With a 3rd player in the pot was the UTG reraise correct?
I've only folded KK once preflop in a tourney, and ended up winning the tourney (sort of poetic justice). I guess if you saw that this particular player always limp-reraised with AA and only AA, you should fold 100% of the time.
The time I folded KK in no limit the blinds were 10-20, I made it 75 to go, one reraised allin for about 300 or 400, the guy after him immediately called all in, and I mucked it. Just sometimes you know that the only hand someone can have is AA. In this situation the reraiser had JJ and the caller had AA.
1) If it's a tight solid player. Mucking Kings is reasonable. If I did it, I would never show them.
2) I believe the guy with Aces played it correctly. He wanted to get some one to bet money and pick up the pot uncontested. Since, he had a lot of chips he needed to protect his stack at this point. That's why he bet 9000 so he would not get called by a hand that could beat him. But, again, I would never show my hand.
mah wrote:
"I believe the guy with Aces played it correctly."
Ok, I agree with that, althouth there are other ways to play the hand.
"He wanted to get some one to bet money and pick up the pot uncontested."
Also sort of makes sense, but AA is such a favorite, I think I would want at least one caller.
"Since, he had a lot of chips he needed to protect his stack at this point. That's why he bet 9000 so he would not get called by a hand that could beat him."
I don't know what that means. When you say "he would not get called by a hand that could beat him" do you mean a hand like J10s, or something? Theoretically, any hand can beat him after all the cards are out, but he's a favorite against pretty much every hand. Like I said earlier, I think I would want one caller, but maybe I'm missing something.
Max
Max,
To answer your question, "When you say "he would not get called by a hand that could beat him" do you mean a hand like J10s, or something?
Yes, I do not want a hand that is totally live to call me when I'm holding pockets Aces. Since, I'm the chip leader by a wide margin at this point, the only types of hands I welcome are pocket pairs and hopefully hands like AK. So, I reraise to pick up what's in the pot or hopefully I get lucky and am called by a pocket pair or AK.
I'm in the small blind with $900, playing $100-$200 I've already added on. 4 limpers. I raise with pocket K's. BB and limpers call.
flop Ts 7h 4d
I bet and get 4 callers.
turn 4c.
I bet. One caller. An older man on the button raises me. I solidly put him on a four, and I only have enough chips to call him on the turn and river. If I fold I'll have $400 left and in 5-10min the blinds raise to $200-$400. What do I do?
If you call him down, you will be getting about 7:1 or so (depending upon what the third player does). Are you more than 88% certain that he has a 4? Wait, even if he has a 4, you'll catch a K on the river almost 5% of the time, so you have to be about 90% certain. Could he have something you can still beat at least 10% of the time? If so, call. If you're this certain he has trip 4s or better, then go ahead and fold.
Since you don't say anything about it, I'll assume that this is still early in the tourney, i.e., you're a long way from the money. If you're close to the money, then be slightly more inclined to fold and guarantee survival (slightly being the operative word).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Yes, it was still very early on in the tourney. I was probably 70-90% certain he had a 4. The way I look at it: what are my chances of making the money with just 4 chips left at this early stage the tourney? I probably had about 2 rounds before blinding out. There were still 140-150 people left in the tournament. What are my chances of winning if I catch a king and win a $2,500-$3,000 pot?
"Solidly put him on a four"? If you can read someone for a four, you belong in the WSOP $10,000 event. What about JJ, QQ, or AA; two of which you can beat? Or even AT or possibly TT or 77; only one of which you can beat.
The point is you may not be beaten here. He knows you're on short chips and may be bullying, you know, putting the old screws to you, see if you've got the right stuff.
If you read it like that, then call or raise. Being short chipped sucks, you may have to make a stand.
Max,
By the adjectives in the post it appeared to me like the "Analog Kid" was trying to non-offensively describe his opponent as a tight old fart who probably limped in with some piece of garbage like 45s or A4s. Obviously you can only guestimate as to the liklelyhood of your opponent having a four, but if your gut intuition tells you he does have one a fold is warranted. It is very unlikely that he limped in with an overpair and if he squeakes he probably won't make a play if he doesn't have the nuts. Accessing numerical percantages on your opponent having a four is fine for the mathemeticians but it is of very little practical value in the heat of battle. In order to draw any statistical conclusions what do you need for a fair sample? You need to be in this situation, what, maybe 10,000 times and how do you really gauge how many times your opponet has a four or you won't catch a king. Maybe if I live to be 125 and I put in 1500 tourney hours a year I may be able to shed some light. The instictive players can probably answer the initial question a whole lot better than the mathemeticians. S&M can give me a nice theoretical discertation but I'll take T.J.'s yes or no answer any day of the week.
Bruce M. Seligsohn
bruce wrote: >S&M can give me a nice theoretical discertation but >I'll take T.J.'s yes or no answer any day of the week.
That might be OK, except most people intuitively make yes or no decisions at about the 50% level. That is, even if they're not really thinking in those terms, they pick yes when they feel that yes is more likely than no (and, of course, yes is more likely than no when it's 51% yes and 49% no). So, if you just go with the yes or no decision, you will often be making a playing error.
There is always some doubt. You need to estimate how much doubt, not just yes or no. Then you'll be making much better decisions.
Also, TJ doesn't really do what he says (although he probably thinks he does). If he did, he would make fewer good decisions than he actually does. Maybe he alters his decision point subconsciously higher or lower than 50% to reflect the circumstances, and isn't really consciously aware of it. Let's just say that I've seen him make calls on the river in limit tourney games where it was pretty clear he expected to see a better hand than he was holding. He appeared to be calling for the size of the pot, not because he thought he had the best hand.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hmmmm, tough one. You either have to fold or, if you have enough chips, raise. You would like to knock out that middle position caller if possible. He might have Ace ten, or a draw, and you would like to either knock him out or make him pay a lot for whatever he is drawing to.
I think I would raise. If I couldn't raise I would call. If you win you will win a nice pot. If you lose you can go home or go play blackjack or whatever. But if you fold, you are seriously short stacked and probably won't survive long anyway.
-SmoothB-
My guess is that your opponent has something other than a four, but a strong hand none the less. I would be more suspicious of a set of 7s. Some older players like to play big pairs in this way in tournaments, so you might have the best hand. Sometimes it's easier to just call out of the blind here so that you have a little more leverage on the flop. Raising is a good live action play, but with a short stack you need to pick up some chips quickly. Two courses of action are either to try to accumulate some chips by raising (these players aren't going to fold for another bet) or try to take the pot on the flop with a check raise. Since you raised before the flop, I feel that you are somewhat committed to the pot. I'd re-raise the guy and live or die with my Kings early in the Tournament.
I will be in LV for the first time in many years, staying at Paris on a Sunday and Monday. Any suggestions about lower buy-in HE tournaments? No-limit tournaments would be especially good.
I have the CardPlayer list, but assume that only advertisers get a listing.
You can try the low-limit tourneys at the Orleans or Stratosphere. From the Paris casino you can get to the Orleans by catching the free shuttle bus from the Barbary Coast. To get to the Stratosphere take a Cab or ride the LV BUS at your own risk (I don't like the Bus because it's too crowded).
Sunday night No limit holdem tourny at Stratosphere is usually pretty good and then a No Limit live game afterward is spread
mickey ...I doubt very much that only advertisers are listed in Card Player...simply cause they`re in business to give the player the best info available..the more services they offer us the reader the more we enjoy thier publications today and beyond ..
jg
The daily tournament at the Luxor is nice. $25 for T250 plus an optional $2 for additional T50. Get there early though (10:30-11) because they limit it to 3 tables. Pays 7 places with 29 players.
The Orleans daily tourneys are also great for the $$$. They have $25/$20 tourneys daily.
Good luck!
Packerfan1
Be the flop... See the flop... You're not being the flop, Danny.
I did get to the Luxor noon tourney. It didn't fill up, but was a fun tourney. Thanks.
In a small limit Holdem tournament the following situation occurred. I was BB and chip leader with 50k in chips. The blinds were 2k and 1k. There were five players remaining. The tournament ends when it gets down to four players and the money is then distributed. 1st is $400.00, 2nd is $200.00, 3rd is $150.00, 4th is 110.00. UTG had 2k, Players 2 and 3 had 40k and 44k respectively and the button had 47k. The button raised and showed AK after the hand. The tournament ended the next hand and I finished 2nd. I folded to his raise but feel this was a mistake (my call here was 'free') My question is how this situation should be approached though the hand given the tournament structure and the prize money distribution.
Limp with anything, then fold if you don't hit the flop. Reason being that way you maintain a lead over the two other players, yet you get three cards to knock them out. Draws do not count as "hitting" the flop--you could slide even further down the prize ladder chasing a straight.
Regards,
Richard
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I must say I read it that UTG folded because the tournament ended on the next hand ? PSM, can you clear this up ? If UTG has folded this changes a lot and muddies the waters.
I don't understand the reasoning behind this kind of tournament structure. Fair enough if you must finish the tournament by a particular time then set a time limit but ending when you reach a fixed number of players - what's the point ? At least you are thinking in the right way, hand values become less important (but not completely irrelevant) and Jeapordy-type calculations come much more into play.
By the way, there was a thread a while back about keeping players in rather than knocking them out. I don't know how you would go about it with UTG being so low, but the players in third and particularly fourth must do all they can to ensure that UTG is _not_ knocked out of the tournament at this point.
Andy.
UTG folded. Only action was button raise. SB folded
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Thanks for all the feedback! I do think this is a very poor tournament structure, it's good to know other people feel the same.
Hi, does anyone have Turbo Texas Hold'em Tournament ?
I have the ring game version. Started tourneys recently and was wondering if buying this version would be a good idea. I play on IRC but there's nothing like TTH.
Any flaws in the software?
Any comments appreciated.
Make $money$ not war...
theprince00
It's a good program but still flawed. The short-handed play at the final table in No-limit is very poor.
I'd think that someone could write a dedicated program whose aim would be to give you the toughest opponents possible. It would include artificial intelligence where the players would have access to your past history of plays where your hand was shown down so they could adjust to your play over time. They would have perfect knowledge of every hand you showed down......kind of like a table full of TJs.
This touches on something I was thinking about reading some of the computer posts on one of the other forums. There are a lot of things that someone who knows enough about poker and programming could do if they had the time but it would not be a money-maker. The few people in that category can, and do, make more money, er, playing poker and programming computers to do other things.
Andy.
The Gambling Forum Archive
Tournaments
March-May 2000 Digest is provided by Two Plus Two Publishing and ConJelCo