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$50K added? 64 times 330 is only $21+. I'm surprised they aren't already sold out. If I lived anywhere nearby and had the time, I'd be in.
Your cards don't matter that much unless you're putting a significant fraction of your chips in preflop. What matters is the opponent, right? If you are sure he's going to fold to your bet everytime he misses the flop, you can raise or call a raise with anything. Of course, you shouldn't expect to see many opponents that weak, but you know my drift.
This should be the perfect opportunity for you John, since you prefer to outplay your opponents rather than patiently wait for big tickets. ;-) Go and do your best to read your opponent, and estimate their response to your bets/calls, and then decide whether to bet, call, raise, or fold as appropriate. Just remember that if they aren't going to fold, you need to have the edge in terms of better cards.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I saw in poker digest that there is 256 players in this tourney.
Ken Poklitar
As it turned out, there were only 128 players, two brackets of 64 each. The turnout was not as high as expected so they cut it off at the 128. But they are still adding $50,000 so the overlay is even higher for those who are playing.
Now the bad news. I lost my first round. Early in the match I got pocket queens and raised preflop. My opponent called with 68o. The flop copes J6x. I bet and he raises. The turn was a blank, so I bet and he just called. The river was another 6. I checked but called his bet. My stack was ruined after this hand and I never recovered.
JohnnyD
Ouch.
Playing in a one rebuy NL tourney at the Oregon Open on the weekend. It is the 3rd round. Rebuy can be done up until end of 4th round. I have T1550 which is about what I started with. I have taken no rebuys.
I am just moved to a new table. A few hands later I find myself in the SB. Blinds are 100-200. Everyone folds to me. I look down and see K5. The BB has a slightly bigger stack then I do. He might have T1900. I decide to attempt a steal and make it 700 to go. He calls. The flop contains an ace. I check he bets and I fold.
Without knowing anything about the BB player, do you make the steal or do you just muck?
Is K5o to weak to steal with?
Does anyone go all-in on the flop as a pure bluff? That seems risky since an ace hit.
Ken Poklitar
I have posted this before, it is a 'weak' play I use from time to time. A raise from the SB always 'looks' like a steal.. Even if you have AA, the BB will sometimes put you on a steal anyways and crack your hand...everyone has had that happen. First of all, the blind has random cards. Almost always trash..You have trash too but who cares. What Rounder says is true. There is a clumping effect and if everyone up front has folded, there is a better possiblility that he has good cards..get his blind anyway..here is the simple play.
Look at your cards and grab enough chips to raise..then think for a second and just call. You almost have to pretend that this is what you are actually doing for it to look real. No matter what the flop comes, BET..it also helps if you look a little excited when you bet. Mentally delude yourself that you saw AA under there. This will appear to the blind that you have a good hand and are slowplaying it preflop. It only works on observant players. Of course if he raises you, just fold and be done with it..unless of course, the flop hits you...then you can have fun.
You can NOT over act when doing this. It of course has to be against an observant player, not one staring at the cocktail waitresses.
Another even worse approach is to check the flop and then bet on the turn if he checks too. You of course risk everything by waiting until the turn. It is a sparing play and you are taking the tremendous risk of letting your opponent see the flop...playing from in front of him..gambling he will check the flop.etc..etc.. You are gambling anyway when you steal blinds.
This works best against the 'waiting' type of player who is waiting for strong starting hands. The kind who takes a peek at his hole cards and then kinda lackadaisically (sp?) throws them into the muck. Also the kind that barely shakes his head 'no' after looking at his hole cards.
Here is a kinda funny story about when I used this play against just such a player. It was back when I first started playing tournaments, so it is sort of a jacked up hand.
I ran into a hand got very lucky and won anways.
"I'll name this one the double checkraise cheeze play :)"
This was about the fifth hand for me after I had been moved from another table. Later stages of a $60.00 limit holdem tourney. I looked down to see J-2 in the SB. folded around to me. I do my pretend 'I am going to raise act' and then just call, preparing to CHeeze into him on the flop. He thinks about it for a minute makes strong eye contact with me(uh oh reverse cheeze) and checks his BB. The flop comes 2-2-9. Whoo Hooo! I check..he of course bets..I felt he was on KK or AA. I look at my cards again..and call. Some of you may disagree with my slowplay here, but this is my general tournament strategy, when you got a decent hand, you have to get the maximum from them back when I first started playing tournaments, I tended to slowplay hands headsup much much more than I do now. I really don't remember the turn or the river..they were not overcards and thats the only thing that would have scared me a bit, an A or K would have terrified me. I check raised him on the turn..he re-raised...I let him take the lead once more and meekly called. (weak when strong..strong when weak..I know..I know)
I looked at my cards one final time on the river card and checked. I knew he was going to bet at me again. He wasn't just loading chips in his hand, he was gonna bet, I just knew it. I check raised him a second time (double checkraising is both goofy and mean at the same time) and he just called adding, "I guess you have a boat, I know you dont have a deuce". (internal woohoo) He turned over exactly what I expected he had. AA. I turned over my J-2 and he said "How in the heck can you play that?". I shrugged..he glared..someone at the table said "ouch"..he said "yes ouch"
I'm not sure if I could have snagged an additional bet from him on the turn or the river by playing my hand more straightforward, it was one of those cranked up moments where I was going on my gut instincts and not really having any idea of what I was doing at the same time. :) I will also say that the possiblity of him having a boat or other funky hand that could beat me certainly crossed my mind. I think I extracted the maximum..I'll never know.
If I played the same hand today, I would have went another raise with him on the turn and then fired on the river...Anyways, it was a fun hand and a nice pot. The really funny thing is, both him and I decided to be sneaky at the same time. Had he raised preflop with the AA, my J2 was going into the muck pile and I wouldn't have this fond memory. I love this game!
Regards
Joe
Helps to knock over your stack when the flop hits. If the bb is not observant he can't miss the chips going down - I picked up on this a few years ago while playing at Binions - a 2nd 7 hit the turn and I had TT I accidentally knocked my stack over and bet a guy mucked QQ but I had to show down as one of the blinds was all in - this guy went on tilt so bad he had to leave the card room - so knocking the stacks over might just put you over the top.
Hi,
I'm beginning to get why Doyle hates AQ.
Yesterday's warmup. The blinds are 10-20. This is a full table and I have T239 left. I'm to the left of UTG with AhQh. I raise 60. I am called by a middle position player. From what I can tell, he seems typical, not too loose, not too solid. He covers me.
Flops is A 8 3 rainbow. I check and he bets 200. I raise all-in and he calls.
He shows AK and I'm out...
Any thing you would have done differently? It seems someone always has AK when I flop an ace wityh AQ.
Thanks...
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Nicholas,
Like the others, I may have considered limping with this hand or even mucking. But, it seems that too many people play AJs and ATs to a raise in the freerolls, so maybe your raise is OK. Anyway...
Why not bet the flop? You hit your hand and I feel that you will get a better idea where you are in the hand by betting. I don't want all my chips in on top pair/second kicker unless I have a pretty good idea I am ahead. I would've bet the pot and then considered my options after a raise or call. If raised, I would have to think for a bit before committing all my chips when I could be out if they have AK or 88. I think by checking you may have induced a bluff or a bet from AJ or AT, but it does not sound like you considered that you were behind. What was your read on their hand? When I play hands that could spell trouble, I prefer all the info I can get. That's why I vote for betting out.
Hope to play with you in Round 2 this weekend. I qualified Monday.
KJS "vinny"
I did consider that I was against AK. It's impossible to get a read on if the flop helped my opponent online. I think most typical opponnents, would raise me all-in if they had AJ or any ace for that matter if I bet out. So betting out will most likely get me all-in against hands that I beat as well as AK. So I opted for a check-raise, maybe my opponent would bet a hand like TT or 99 after I checked it to him. By moving in after, I'll (probably) make him fold a pocket pair. If not, then he only got 2 outs. With all the bozos playing in the freerolls, once I flop an ace I have to continue, I think. (without any concrete knowledge of this player)
This darn internet thing is hard to play well because you got no read available on your opponent. Of course, basic tourney strategies are a must but I'm used to be guided by feel too and no matter how bad I stare at my computer, it just does not move... :-)
Thanks for the comment,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Care to comment?
TIA,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Well, like I've said before, this is pokerpages. Against an average opponent in these events, you'd win more often than lose in the situation described. Therefore, folding is probably not the right way to play this hand postflop, and getting it all in probably is.
In a real tourney, you just have to gauge the player and figure out whether he'd do what he's doing without having a better hand.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
From early position, I will usually either muck AQ or just call and hope to see a flop cheap. The fact that it is suited might make the difference and just call in this case.
I don't think raising is a terrible play. I will raise with it in middle and late position if no one is in.
In your case I would bet out on the flop. Of course the results would have been the same.
Ken Poklitar
I will be in Reno next week. Does anyone have any information about daily tournaments or where the best poker action might be?
Well, we were all assuming, you were staying, at the correct Hilton property. The rest is easy.
SU.
P,S.GO to hilton.com. reno.com for a second opinion. then check in the Correct Hilton. proffessorrs don't do homework for the students.
No-Limit Hold'em question:
Do you ever limp in the small blind with AA or KK after everybody has passed, and the Big Blind is a SUPER aggressive player who will see your limping as an opportunity to blow you off your hand?
What about with a hand that is a little more vulnerable like QQ or JJ?
If he's super-aggressive AND you are both relatively short-stacked compared to the blinds, then limping and expecting a raise can be a very good play against these types. For example, let's say you or he only has 5-10x the big blind. You call, and he makes it 3-4x to go. Now you can reraise all-in and he's pot-stuck as a big dog. If you had raised first, he might have folded a bunch of hands that are now all-in.
However, if the money is still pretty deep, this may not be the best play. If you call and then reraise, he will be able to get away from hands that are bare steals, and maybe some pretty good hands if he knows you're unlikely to make this play as a bluff. So, raising might be better, if he's inclined to view this as a steal and reraise. You'll get more money in by raising than by calling, maybe.
As always, know thy opponent.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Perhaps you can tell me how many chips you get when you buy-in for the trops no-limit holdem tournies?
You get $500 the no limit is the third friday of the month.
Richard Tatolvich who has won several tournies in this past year was recently interviewed in Card Player magazine ( I think it was a 2 or 3 part interview).
One of the things that I found interesting is his post-tourney review that he does. He writes down all sorts of notes of his good and bad plays. He also has a list of mistakes that he has made. He reviews these notes and mentally prepares before tournies.
I wonder if other players do this? I write down key hands where I made mistakes (even if I won the hand) or where I made a questionable play. I also try to prepare before a tourney but not to the extent that RT does.
Ken Poklitar
It was actually in Poker Digest and was a four part story. Richard is a local Phoenix area player who I see almost every week in our local tournaments. He has an unusual style of play and is considered by many pros as not among the best. But his results say differently. He was ranked 9th in Nolan Dalla's rankings for 2000 and won 5 events, including the main event at the Taj for $318,000.
Richard is usually very quiet at the table. He is a thinker, not a talker. I'm not suprised that he writes down mistakes, etc because he's always trying to improve his game.
I don't keep those kind of records, but probably should. I bet he keeps a profile on other players he sees and/or expects to play against.
JohnnyD
That would be fun being able to play against a top player like that in local tournies.
Ken Poklitar
Another Phoenix area player, Chip Jett, won the best all around at the LA Classic that just finished. He had 7 top ten/in the money finishes. Chip and Richard are very well respected around here, but there are many other great players in the area. It's a tough place to play.
JohnnyD
Johnny glad to see Chip doing well - I have a funny story about him - well not him but me mistaking him for another guy with the same doo.
I was in the 10 seat and this loose maniac was in the 1 seat he had the same cort of orange blond hair doo that Chip has - well I went to the head and when I came back the maniac had busted out and chip was moved in his place. I didn't notice the change just could see the hair over the rather large dealer. Well I made a play with JJ and lost. I am certain I wouldn't have made the same play had I known it was Chip and not the maniac.
Can't wait to leave this poker waste land and get back out west - see you soon.
Mike
JohnnyD wrote: > He has an unusual style of play and is considered by many pros as not among the best.
They don't have a clue. He is world champion in 5 years.
The Balrog
I get a kick out of playing cards with Rick. I have seen very good players become very angry with him. Hey if you can't piss somebody off what fun is there in that? At least he is not that part of the cult of personality that includes Mellisa, Daniel, Allen and many others who think because they play a little poker that the world owes them a living.
You make a good point, Rich is successful outside of poker and doesn't NEED to win. I think part of the reason he plays is to satisfy his competitive urges rather than needing the money to survive.
You are also correct that he leaves other players pissed and scratching their head wondering where that play came from. I love it.
JohnnyD
I was scratching when I played with him at FW.
While "variant" plays don't upset me, the times I saw his cards I really did feel that Richard didn't play his hands that well. When he folded or won without a showdown (most often, since these were no limit events), I obviously can't judge. There were 2 plays in particular that made me wonder why he's done well. In one hand, he made a big bet against a player, and I expected that guy to call with any hand he might have to have made his earlier plays in that hand, and he did call. Richard lost to 2 pair, and couldn't even beat top pair himself. In another hand, Richard called a bet from a guy in a spot where I was sure the guy had a very big hand. The guy did, and Richard mucked. Someone else asked to see Richard's cards, and he had nothing, A high, and could only beat a bluff. Now, in both spots, against other players, Richard's plays would be correct. It's not like I'm the world's greatest card readers, yet in both of these instances I felt the other player's circumstances were obvious, and should have been obvious to any good player. Yet, Richard made plays that contravened those reads.
However, it may be that he's doing something a lot better than me or most, and that I happened to catch 2 examples of bad plays by him. I know I've made a lot more than 2 bad plays, and there are many out there who figure I must be awful based upon what they've seen. So, I don't consider Richard weak just because of what I've observed, but I also don't consider him strong, despite his record. I'll need to see some big plays on his part before he moves up in my book.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I have played a lot of tournaments with Richard and consider him to be a friend. On a trip to LA from Phoenix once he implied his success was a factor if the number of tournaments he was playing in.
Whatever, I never minded when he was at my table of course I never mind who is at my table.
Anybody going to Tunica for the Open this year? Got the cash piling up and the vacation already scheduled for my first trip to a big time tourney and I'm getting anxious.
I have a schedule of events but I'm curious as to how they run their satelites. I'm buying directly into 2 tournaments but want to take a shot at the others as well as the championship. Anybody know how many are run during the day, the buy-in, and how good was the side action last year?
Obviously they don't post any satelite info anywhere, so I'm just asking anyone who went last year what they would be for any of the tournaments, when they are and how long they usually last or basically any info that gives me a better idea of what to expect.
If anyone is going, let me know, so I know who to look for amongst the other wannabes and up-and-comers.
I have T499. 36 players left, which means the average chips is T1700ish. Blinds are T50/T100, and I'm in the big blind.
I early position player limps all in with only a few chips. 3 other limpers of average to large stack size, and a big stack raises by T100. SB calls. I'm at the point where I think I need to get pretty lucky, and this seems like an okay place to do it, so I call with A6d. Is this a big mistake? I'm still not sure, but to be honest I wouldn't have minded losing so I could meet up with some friends. At any rate, everyone calls the small raise.
Flop is QdJc8d. I consider pushing all in on a bluff, but people in these things really like the chance to elimate people, so I don't think there is any way I even get heads up. I check, 1 limper checks, next limper with stack about same as "big stack" bets T200 into the pot of ~T1300. Next limper folds, "big stack" pushes all in. At this point, with the nut flush draw I figure I have to call and hope, as I have T299 and can win about T2100, which is a pretty big overlay with two cards to come even if someone has a set (my sims show about 2.8-1 to win assuming a set and ignoring other player). The original bettor calls.
Turn is a low blank, river is 6c. I show my pair of 6s, 1st all in player mucks. Flop bettor shows KTd, flopped diamond draw and straight draw and missed both. Preflop raiser mucks (don't know what he could have to not even beat other big stack on high card, AK??). I win a huge pot with pair of sixes, and another guy wins a huge side pot with king high.
Good win!
If you are going to call the all-in bet on the flop you probably should be the one going all-in in the 1st place.
Ken Poklitar
Well, like I said, I don't think a bet from me would be scaring many people. A bet is still probably right though, I agree. In this case it probably didn't matter...
I agree with Ken.
Even if you are likely going to be called by a couple of players, if you are going to call then bet it. You never know, I've seen strange things happen at times with these bozos. And you are better off having only 2 opponents than 3 or 4. You could make a player holding A9 or A7 fold and you could win if an ace comes up.
I think you have to call preflop, and on the flop it's a no brainer, IMO.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Heh, "Funny Pokerpages Hands"
That should be the title of a new book.
No wait... a whole series of books "the Encyclopedia of Funny PokerPages Hands". Maybe the Franklin Mint will sell a volume each month over the next 5 years.
Where do these players come from?
Ok, heres my favorite one.
A few weeks back there's about 30 left. Blinds T100/T200 Im in the BB with 6d3d and a smallish stack, say T1400. 4 limpers and I check.
Flop comes KQ6 rainbow
I check ready to dump at a bet.. which never comes.
Turn 6 DING!
I shove it all in hoping to trap a King. Fold. Fold. Call (almost his whole stack, too). Fold. (Please be a blank.. )
River 8 YEA!
Caller turns over 88 and I stare at a darkened screen for a while in open mouthed amazement. ( I still can't even write about it without shaking my head and chuckling)
"Hmmmm I have 88 which is an underpair to two face cards on the board and now the BB shoves his entire stack in when the board pairs the six... Hmmmm."
Sigh. Again.. where do they come from.. and why aren't they at the 4-8 HE table when I'm in IN? :)
Michael
Be the flop... See the flop... You're not being the flop, Danny.
Yeah, or my UTG QQ at 500-1000 level, allin for 4.5K, BB with 4.7K calls me!!! with 88....spikes an 8 on river. These people are IDIOTS.
Here is my worst beat in the Poker Pages Tournament. Blinds were 30/60 I was in seat 5 with 1800 and the first 3 bet. So I decided to limp in with them holding AA to get in on some muli action. A stack of about 2k in seat 7 bets 200. The 3 limpers fold, I raise 200. Flop comes up A,Q,9. I go all in with 1400. The other guy calls so I figured he was holding QQ and I had him beat. Next two cards come up J,8. He pulled out a straight holding a pair of 10s. I wanted to almost cry. What the hell made him call my flop? Seeing that the preflop raising was so high he had to figure me for a high pair or at least AK and he was beat. Or, maybe he thought I was bluffing because I originally tried to limp in. I don't know.
If I read your post right, 3 players limped, and then you limped in also with AA. Terrible play. There is only 1 reason to limp with AA, and that is when you are highly certain there will be a raise behind you. With you being the 4th limper, there isn't going to be a raise behind you unless somebody has a big hand.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
"These people are IDIOTS."
Yep, and just think...one of them will get a free seat at the Series main event. I shudder to think.
--Chris
Hey, from what I've heard, close to half the field in the main event is dead money. While the greatest players in the world are there, so are some of the worst, apparently. I've heard this event described as having one of the softest fields (as a whole) of almost any event on the major tournament circuit. I guess a lot of wild, aggresive, yet ultimately weak players get in through the supersatellites, while the main event doesn't reward super-fast hyper-aggressive play (or at least doesn't punish it as severely).
Kinda funny, really.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
An extremely tight player raised in second position. This is the first hand he has played in slightly over an hour. I had already made up my mind that I wasn't going to get involved with particular player without the goods. A loose player calls in fourth position. I am in sixth position holding AA. I make it three bets. The flop comes 783. Both players check to me. I bet and the tight player raises. The loose player folds. I merely call. I am thinking that he has an overpair to the board or possibly flopped a set. I am intending to raise on fourth street when a K comes and the tight player leads confidently. I call. The river comes 7. He bets. I call. He turns over 78 of clubs. Go figure.
Sometimes I'll take notice that people are taking notice that I have been folding most hands and have labeled me "extremely tight" (which is not the case). This is when I usually raise with a marginal hand to try to take the pot right there. If I get called, and the flop totally misses me, I'll just fold right there, knowing that I am beat. But when I flop a decent or excellent hand such as in your post top two pair, it is very deceptive as most players will not put me anywhere close to a hand like that. And if I am extremely fortunate, I will be up against a big pocket pair (as in this case.) Normally it is the former, and I will fold, as opposed to losing more money when I miss on the flop, but I have won some of my biggest pots by playing off of the label that a player has "given" me (they are shocked to be shown a hand like 78s, given my "style of play"). I usually play against players that are not beginners, but not really talented either, who think that I am less sophisticated and feel like they have a pretty good read on me. Then I change my style abruptly and get paid off until their perception changes.
Your story is just a case of a tight player, trying to seize an opportunity, and then becoming very fortunate on the flop. There is no way to see a hand like that coming.
This hand came up a couple a weeks ago in the no limit tournament at Foxwoods that Fossilman has made famous. It's been bothering me ever since.
The blinds are 25-50 and I have 775 left. There are two limpers to me in late position and I look down to see JJ. I raise to 200. The blinds fold and both limpers call. The flop comes 9 3 3r. It's check to me and I bet 300. The first limper folds and the second limper calls. He had me covered by about 800. The turn is not what I want to see, another nine. He asks me how much I have left and bets enough to put me all in. I mucked it. It occured to me afterward that this was a perfect opputunity for him to bluff because it was extremely unlikely that I had a nine. I did put him on a nine since he seemed to be a fairly straight forward and unimaginative player.
I know it depends on the player, but how often do you normally call in this situation against a straight forward player with the hand I had?
Thanks for any responses. Peace
Goodie
You're getting about 6:1 on the call. What are the chances that you're ahead? It sounds like you judge them to be worse than that, so a fold is in order.
On the flop, with 575 left in my stack and 675 in the pot, I would have gone all-in and avoided this particular problem, however. Hope you made a comeback.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I can see where that hand would bother you. It is bothering me now! Greg as usuall is dead on the money. Pushing in on the flop here will normally prevent people with overcards from drawing at you and the guy who put you in on the turn might release a nine if he really has one. The fact that he asked how much you had left bothers me, a player who just filled in that situation is probably going to be silent. If he is a straightforward and unimaginative that would make the Strong when weak tell that he exhibited by asking you how much you had left all the more right. Straightforward players exhibit this tell all the time and I think a straightforward player would be more likely to try and trap and check to you if he did fill on the turn. I still commend you on the laydown. It is a laydown that most players wouldn't make in the tourneys I play in even if they know they are beaten. Then they will go on to spike whatever they need to beat me on the river :). Better to survive sometimes than go bust on a feeling. Did he give you any reaction when you mucked? Yup, it is really bothering me now. :) Go be rude and ask him what he had next week what he had for me! Great post!
Best Regards,
Joe
I have 15,000 chips. Antes are 400-800 off the button. I make it 2500 to play with 89hearts. Button with approx the same amount of chips calls. Flop comes K82 with two hearts.
What should I do?
Cheers,
Keith
I bet it. No hesitation. Let's see, 6K in the pot, 12K left each, I bet around 6K.
I hope I'm not giving too much away here Keith :-), but if I raise pre-flop and get one caller then I bet [almost] any time I catch a piece of the flop [against most opponents] . 2/3 of the time your opponent has missed. Here you have 2 pieces of the flop and even if he has top pair you still have decent outs (8s, 9s, hearts).
Can I guess the outcome ? I reckon you bet it and either got drawn out or missed and lost to a K. Bad beat if you did !
Andy.
I think the chip total of your opponent might make a small difference. In this case you hit as good a flop as could be expected (no king would be better of course) for your steal attempt. Bet the pot and hope he folds!
Ken Poklitar
Talked over this hand with Asher Derei, it was in the £1000 / $1500 nl event at the British Open. 5 tables out.
He says I should have checked.. the thing about no limit is to protect your stack. If the button moves in... then make a decision.
He went on to split the event with Pascal Perrault.. and he also won an event at the LA Poker Classic. Anyone still not not heard of him???
BTW he also thought my reraise with 77 was awful on Monday. Of course hes right. sick to play for that long and make a monumental error at the final table. Oh well theres always next time.
Cheers,
keith
Just like to say that however much you respect someone's play, the right play for him is not necessarily the right play for you. I've never seen Asher play, so I maybe the specifics don't apply in this case. However, if he is regarded as a tight player, then maybe if he bets, a strong opponent will not call with a lesser hand. If he checks, he may induce a bluff. If, on the other hand, you are viewed as being a more aggressive player who bluffs more often, you might well get called with a lot of lesser hands, and you might be more likely to get paid off if the flush comes in.
To be honest with you Keith, I think that if I can't bet this flop I might as well raise with 27 off. But again, that's just me.
Andy.
limit tournment , 24 players , buyin 200$ , no rebuy . 5th 10%, 4th 10% , 3rd 15% , 2nd 25% and 1st 40% . We are 7 players still alive and I have the 4th biggest stack with T4800 (T48 000 on the table ) . The 2 biggest stack are around T11000 and T10000 . Nobody is under 1600. At this point , it is 1600-3200 . I am dealt Ad8d in the BB (so I have 3200 after having pay my BB . ) Asian player that I have never seen played before and which is 2 to my left raise he' has T11000 and he has raise very often with is big stack in the last hands . Nobody else call , I call . Flop come 10h-2h-5h , I check-fold .Next hand , I'm in the SB with Ac4c , I have posted T800 , the Asian guy raise , they all fold , I go all-in , BB call (2nd biggest stack) , board come QQ4-3-2 , asian guy take the pot with JJ . Asian guy has won the tournement . Any comment would be appreciate .
You shouldn't have folded the first hand. If you're going to call preflop and have 2/3 of your stack committed, there is no flop on which you can fold. Your A high might have been in the lead, and if it wasn't you might have had 6 outs. You're getting 5.5:1 on the call, so a fold is not the play.
On the second hand, you should have called with anything. Half your stack is in already, so there is no hand it is correct to fold.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
With A8s, if you call the raise you should be committed to the hand. I probably bet out on the flop and hope my ace is the winner.
You say there are 3 stacks lower than you. If you fold the raise and you fold the SB you will have 2400 left. If you think by folding you can squeak into 5th that might be the correct play.
Ken Poklitar
Two hands I'd like some comments on. Paradise 10$ tourneys.
In first one we were down to 8 people, blinds at 50/100. I'm in serious trouble with only 180 in chips. I'm sitting UTG and find K-T off and push all-in. Is this the correct move? (I lost to 2-2 in the SB)
My figuring is that I'll almost be blinded away the next hand and K-T off must be better than average.
In the second hand we're down to four players, (Paradise pays top 3), I'm the small stack with 600ish, the other three have equal stacks of about 2000. Blinds at 100/200. I feel I need to win a hand soon. I'm in the button with K-Q off, UTG raises, I reraise allin both blinds fold and UTG calls. He a 9 falls to his A-9 suited.
My figuring on this hand is that I need to win a hand to stay in the tourney. And with UTG raising I atleast get 1:1.5 for my money.
All comments appriciated.
Sincerly, Andreas
Andreas - It's close in both cases. Also in both cases I would have waited.
K-To and K-Qo are better than average hands, but you have to think about what the other players have in the current hand.
In the first case, with K-T, I would figure that at least one of seven opponents would have a better hand. Since you are "all in" you should expect to be called, but not by many players, so that playing as a team against you, the group will not give you much leverage. I think, with KQ, you are an underdog to the group. That is, among them, there is likely to be a hand better than KQ (AX or a pair).
In the second case, with K-Q, I would figure the UTG raiser to also have a better than average hand, and probably better than your better than average hand. More specifically, I'd figure the UTG raiser to have A-X or a pair, and, if so, you are the underdog.
Thus you are going "all in" in situations where you are not forced to do so and in situations where you are the underdog.
I agree with your reasoning that you are likely to have a even worse hand on the next deal. Still, I would wait and see. I don't like to voluntarily go "all in" when I think I am the underdog.
Just my way of doing it.
Buzz
First hand, you're right, you must win a pot (probably more than one) before you're going to make the money. KT is a worthwhile hand in this spot. It is better than what you're likely to get, plus your raise might get people to fold some hands that are ahead of you now (such as weak aces or small pairs).
Second hand, easy fold. Somebody else already raised. While you might be ahead of them, it seems more likely you're behind, since any pair or any A is a favorite. Plus, maybe one of the blinds will go to war with this person and one of them go broke. You'll win 3rd place without fighting. Wait for an opportunity to raise where you can win without a showdown. Here, there is no doubt that your only win is at the river.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Exactly as I figured on the first hand. I need to get lucky a couple of times to have a shot at the money.
Second hand I got close to even money, I ran some sims in my poker-probe-like program and it came out almost exactly 1.5:1 against K-Q with an opponent with A-9-suited. So it should be an easy fold for the reasons you state. I still doubt that the blinds would have gone to war but stranger things has happend.
Still learning this tournament business. Thanks for all the responses.
Sincerly, Andreas
"Second hand, easy fold"
Playing 4 handed, you are about to lose 1/2 your stack to the blinds. You are 8 hands away from being out. Although I agree you are probably slightly behind you can't wait for long. I don't think you will be able to win any hand without a showdown since you will be the blinds in 2 hands.
Not sure if it is an easy fold,
Ken Poklitar
Better to raise with the next hand, even if it's a lot worse than KQ. The chances of our hero being ahead here are pretty slim, and there is zero chance of winning without a showdown.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I agree with both raises. You are probably behind in the 2nd hand but you don't have any time to wait.
Ken Poklitar
Hand 1: Coincidentally, I just got knocked out of a tournament today with K10o in a situation very similar to yours. I was UTG and would be blinded out by the blinds once the SB got to me. I went all-in and guy to my right (with a lot of chips) calls with 55 and I don't hit a pair. My thinking is that I am not likely to get a much better hand in the next 3 hands, so I gotta go for it now. I finished in the money though at 10th place (the tourney paid top 10). :-)
Hand 2: This is a much tougher situation. You barely have enough chips to see a couple more hands. Chances are the preflop raiser has at least an ace. You need to get lucky here and I think a call is 50-50. I might call, hoping the raiser has a small-medium pocket pair and pray that I hit.
First hand you played correctly. K10 very likely better than the next hand you will be dealt.
Second hand you should fold. You are very likely behind and maybe dominated by an UTG raise. With 3 otherwise equal stacks there is a good chance one of them will bust another during this round, if you can just survive long enough to see it. KQ is a good hand to raise with, but an awful hand to call a raise with. Fold Fold Fold
Dino wins it!!
nt
AllRIGHT DINO!!
I was hoping some of my comments to you earlier may have helped you a bit.
Please post one key hand, either the last hand, or a big key hand that you think turned it for you. I'd be interested to hear.
I couldn't make it out to watch.
GOOD LUCK in Vegas. I think you'll do well.
Keep in mind it won't be a one table satellite tourney. Adjust your play now to a major tourney, played over 5 days. Keep reading T.J.'s book that I've seen you reading. There may be some other good tournament books too.
Again, GOOD LUCK!!
Dino vs. Dennis Dennis almost the first one knocked out. Only had two or three hundred. Made a nice run to become the chip leader. Last two hands: Dino's got 95o. Dennis makes a big bet Dino calls. Flop: 925r. Dino moves all-in. Dennis calls. Dino fills up. Dino has a small chip lead. Next hand Dino gets 93o and moves all in. Dennis calls in with A 10o. Cards are run out and Dino fills up again. The whole room gave him a standing ovation. He was the happiest man that I ever saw. Billy S. finishes 3rd. Dino doesn't fly! He is going to drive to Vegas.
Well, I was knocked out of a tourney today on a hand that had my head spinning for hours afterward. Had it happened online, I'm sure many would attribute it to the internet "scam". But I assure you, this was a live hand:
35 player tourney, 4 spots are being paid. 5 players left, and I'm in the small blind, with T4500. Blinds are 400/800. Big blind has me outstacked. He's a horrible player, but the deck has run him over all night. He's knocked out about 10 players on bad beats already, and I'm next. At one point, he turns to me and says "I read somewhere that a pair against two higher cards is close to even money. . .is that true?". I just shrugged and kept playing. Anyway, here I am in the small, and I find AKo. I don't want to give this guy a look at the flop, since he's married himself to every one he's seen. I shove all in. I'm happy to take his T800 and be done with it. Well, he sighs and says "I guess I call. . ." and he turns over J9o. I'm happy.
Flop comes: AK5. I'm thrilled. Of course the turn and river were Q-T. I'm out on the bubble, and it takes me half an hour to get my eyes to stop spinning in my head.
So, math folk, I guess my question is, on a flop of AK5, what are the odds of J9 getting there with running Q-T, 99, or JJ (his only outs)? I'm guessing I was more than a 20-1 favorite from the flop on, but I'd like the exact number if someone could help me with the math.
Shooter - 16 combinations make QT
6 combinations make 99
6 combinations make JJ
That's out of a total of 990 possible combinations.
28/990 = 0.0283 or about one chance out of about 35.
Odds are about 34 to 1 against.
You played correctly (IMHO).
Buzz
Shooter - I hate it when I make mistakes.
16 combinations make QT
3 combinations make 99
3 combinations make JJ
That's out of a total of 990 possible combinations. 22/990 = 0.0222 or one chance out of 45.
The odds against your opponent catching runner-runner to beat you are 44 to 1.
Buzz
It doesn't matter. The money was all in by that point. You were 2-1 favourite pre-flop when the money went in, and that was the 1 in 3 that lost.
It is neither here nor there that you went miles in front and he then caught you up. Forget about it. A general piece of advice would be not to start raking the pot in mentally until you've seen all five cards. This will help you deal with this kind of situation.
NB Even if you must dwell on this suckout, don't forget he could have caught JJ or 99 on the last two cards as well.
It's enough of a waste of time to think "ohh I was so unlucky to lose that" without dwelling on "ohh I was so unlucky to lose that in that particular way". It's the road to madness !
Andy.
Exactly.
A few Tuesdays ago, I broke a guy at the final table. All the money went in preflop. I had QQ, he had A8o. The flop was A8x. I then caught a Q on the river. This guy was whining and moaning for 2 hours to anyone who would listen (plus those who wouldn't). If our hands had been reversed, I would have been disappointed, but how is it a bad beat when he was the 2:1 dog when the money went into the pot?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Not a bad beat for him he just got excited then let down a bit like Eric Seidel when he flopped a Q with AQ against (I think) Fulong then JJ made his AK pay off on the river.
Of course that has never happened to me. :-)
NL Holdem tourney. KK and I make large raise, with one caller. Flop is Q 8 2, two clubs. I push all in. Long hesitation and a call, also all in. This is early in the tourney, but I know this player. I know he's on the flush draw. Turn is 8 clubs. He flips his 6-7 clubs over triumphantly and I stand starting to carp that some idiot went all in on a flush draw early in a tourney. Then the K hits the river. Poker justice. He carps a long time about a lucky suck out.
Who can expain it?
nt
Down to 2 tables (maybe 20 left) in Sunday's Pokerpages Round 2 NL tourney when this hand came up:
I have ~1650. Blinds are 150-300. I have not had a good hand in a couple rounds so my once big stack is shrinking. All fold to the cut-off who raises 600. The button calls the 900.
I have 150 in the SB and ~1500 left. I have Ac3c. What is my play?
Results in a separate post.
Thanks,
KJS
.
n/t
I folded, without too much hesitation. I figured I was only in for the flush, and it would probably take all my chips to draw to it.
Of course, the flop brought 3 clubs. Such is poker.
I continue to post hands from the late rounds of these tourneys because that is the part of my game I have the least confidence in. I seem to find myself pretty often in the late stages with a medium-small stack that needs to grow to get to the final table. When the cards dry up I feel lost. Part of me just says "I guess its not my day" but another part wonders what more I can do to try to get some pots. When hands that I consider playing (however fleetingly) hit, I second guess myself.
Guess I need to find some good material to study regarding this dilemma.
Thanks again,
KJS
When you are medium/short stacked with big blinds and down to last or second last table, it won't do to just wait for big hands. You don't want to call a raise with Axs, but you might go all in with it from mid to late position to steal the blinds. I think you really have to give yourself a chance to win by taking a few chances at this point. I hate getting blinded out in a terney. It means I probably played to tight at the end and missed some crucial stealing opportunities. Remember that at this stage of the terney people really don't want to take a big hit, so your all in bets carry that much more weight. Always try to keep a handle on the average stack. If you get below half of the average its time to take a few measured chances. This has been my approach in terneys and it seems to have worked well for me.
Keep trying and with a little luck we'll see you in Round 3
Whale
Talking about books that can help, T.J.'s pot limit-no limit hold-em book written with McEvoy is excellant.
The one quote that hit me is T.J.'s axiom, " a bettor or a raiser be, a caller never be".
I think he is talking exactly about your situation posted above.
Whiny, bad beat/suckout stories to follow. You have been warned!!
Late-ish in yesterday's PokerPages Round II tourney. Perhaps 20+ people remaining. I have 4,000+ in chips and am among the chip leaders.
Near Fatal Hand # 1:
K-K.
Blinds are $150 and $300; under the gun raises $300. All fold to me; I raise $1,000 to try and limit the field. All fold to under the gun, who raises all in.
I don't believe he has A-A; if I'm wrong IGHN. I call him; I have about $84 in chips after completing his all-in.
He has K-J of spades; two spades on the flop and one on the river. Poof.
I go on to get a decent run of hands and work my stack to $250, $500, $1000 and $3000. I'm underchipped, but I'm back in the running.
Near-Fatal Play # 2:
Several rounds go by without playable cards, and I am being rapidly blinded away. I have about $1,500 or so in chips left and am in late position with 7-7. I raise all in and get one caller. Small blind, with approximately the same stack as I have, calls.
9-8-x on the turn and I lose to J-9.
$150 left.
Again, I am fortunate and lucky enough to work my stack back up to a miniscule -- compared with the rest of the final table -- $1,500. Average stack is around $5K; blinds are now at $250 and $500.
Endgame:
Nine players left. I'm in the cutoff seat with A-J suited. Two limpers to me; I go all in with my remaining $600+ in a last ditch effort to stay alive; everybody folds except for one caller. Board is totally unhelpful, opponent reveals presto (can I say "presto" here?) -- to go with the *other* presto on the board. Heh -- four fives; talk about overkill.
Back to the drawing board! Hope to see you guys tonight/tomorrow/rest o' the week/etc.
Of course, I'd be interested in whether I played any of the above hands abysmally wrong; please feel free to comment on any of the above hands.
Mike
Mike,
Glad to see your report. I (vinny) was at the table when you got beat by that KJs flush. Thought that was a pretty bad beat, but I didn't get to see your hand. I was impressed that you got back up and made it to the final table. Meanwhile, I was being blinded to death in 15th.
I think you played all those hands fine. Some bad luck for sure.
KJS aka vinny
At that stage, 9 players, play is typically pretty tight. With 2 limpers, I would fold AJs. There is no chance, given the size of your stack, to get everyone to fold. And, there is just too strong a chance that the player who does call has a better A, and at worst a pair. Because of the dead money from the folders, going up against a pair is +EV in terms of chips, but you still go broke slightly over half the time. Given the stage of the tourney, survival counts more than chip accumulation.
So, I fold AJs here, and hope to get a decent hand to raise with as the first one in before the blind hits. And, if there is enough chance they all fold to the raise, maybe the hand doesn't even have to be decent, but just the first one in.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I was at a local card room last night in Michigan called the Soaring Eagle and decided to give a shot at the weekly tourney they had there. It was a TOC qualifier tourney ($50 buy-in, $30 re-buy)
I made it to the final table (pay 9 places) and at this time there were 7 left.
The blinds are $4000/$2000 with a $200 aunte. I have $8200 left and I'm under the gun (there is $110,000 in chips on the table so I'm kinda low stacked).
I'm dealt A.K off and I just smooth call for $4000. The small and big blind call everyone else folded. The flop come J,rag,rag rainbow board. The small blind moves in for about $4500.
I think for a while, if I fold the big will eat me up next hand since I will only have $4200 left ($200 aunte and $4000 big blind). So I move in as well.
Small blind turns over J,Q off giving him a pair of Jacks. I'm hoping for a A or K on the turn or river but nothing came and I finished 7th.
I would like to know if I made a mistake with this hand. After thinking about it I think I should have just moved in before the flop. The small blind may be hard pressed to call my all in bet since he had aprox the same amount of chips as me and that hand could have finished him too.
Comments????
I'm a successful limited holdem player, usually play 10-20, 20-40 but I'm a little new to no limit.
Help and advice would be much appreciated.
Yes, you definitely want to move all in preflop. Just winning the blinds and antes is fine here, and getting called by a weaker ace is not unheard of, which would be good for you.
One thing you'll need to start taking note of is the relative sizes of other stacks. Your play here may depend on whether someone else will be blinded out soon, etc.
Your thinking is correct. Raise all-in pre-flop.
Ken Poklitar
You're chip stack is simply too small in comparison to the blinds. I think you have to go all-in preflop in this situation and make the blinds (and other players) make a decision. If you had a huge stack, then I would raise something like 3x the BB. Glad you hear that you placed in the money and better luck next time!
I have a question. In two of my most recent NL tourneys, I'm extremely short-stacked and am about to be blinded out as my stack barely covers the BB. It's late in the tourney and I'm dealt 45o UTG. I push all-in. Are hands like these (i.e. 45o, 67o, 38s, 49s) resonable enough hands to go all-in in this situation? My thinking is that it's either going to be this hand or the next one. I'd rather take my chances here with straight and flush possibilities than to wait for the BB where I won't have a choice. In other words, I don't think I can count on my BB hand to get anything much better. I guess my survival here really depends on luck, so maybe it doesn't make a difference if I all with this hand or just wait for a random hand in the BB. I'm probably screwed either way. What do you guys think? What if I had something like Q3o or J5o?
Thanks in advance for your comments.
The hands you mention 45o, J5o, Q3o are all below average so you'll probably be better of waiting for the blind and hoping.
But it raises an interesting point. At this time you get 1.5:1 for your money (probably 2:1 since most SB:s will call in this spot). If you're in the BB and only wind up against the SB you'll only get 1:1 on your money.
But I still belive that the mentioned hands are to big dogs to make it worth while.
Sincerly, Andreas
It really depends on the size of your stack when you go all-in. If you think you can eliminate everyone except the BB for instance, any small pair (even 22) or any Ax or Kx play a lot better than small suiteds or connectors. If your stack is sp small that you'll probably get 3+ callers, than the suiteds or connectors are probably your best shot. You may get lucky and triple or quadruple your stack with the right board.
The best strategy IMO though is to make a stand with something before your stack gets too tiny. I'd much rather go all-in with something like K8s, when my stack is still big enough to scare someone a little, than to just wait for my stack to dwindle away, and end up forced all-in from the blind with 93o. That is unless it's close to the money.
I think all the hands you listed are the < 50% win category. At the point you are you probably should fold and hope the BB gives you something.
Andy Ward did a good post a month or so ago about short stack play. It talks about trying not to get to the problem you are in. Look for it in the archives. In NL once you get to the 3x or 4x big blind chip count then you really are low in chips and you need to make your move. At this level you can still raise and steal the blinds. If you wait to the 2x stage any raise you make will be called. You also need to worry about when the round is going to end. A 5xBB stack becomes 2.5xBB stack when the blinds double.
Ken Poklitar
Here is a hand that I played (badly) in Round 2 of the PP WSOP Warm-up Tournament. Please give me your comments. I think it will be valuable for everyone.
39 players out of 161 left. The average stack at this time was about 1800. Blinds are 50/100. I have 1150 left. The blinds will be going up soon, so I am starting to get concerned. I have not had any hands for sometime. Two rounds earlier, I was able to pick up the blinds when I raised from the cut-off seat holding K,To.
Now I am in the cut-off seat against the same players holding Ac9c. I raised an additional 200. The big blind, who has about 2600 calls.
The flop is T,9,8 with two diamonds and one club.
I have no previous no limit experience, so my thinking under fire is not as good or quick as I would like it to be. I have the middle pair, but the board is coordinated. However, I am so preoccupied with whether or not to lead out or check that I do not analyze the range of hands that the BB might have (mistake). I know he/she has something because they gave up the blind earlier, so is not a committed defender of blinds. They seem to be a solid player.
Earlier in the day, I had been reading Super System. In it, Doyle says that if he has raised pre-flop and is first to act, he bets out, he will not check. Unfortunately, this was in my mind. I realize now that Doyle’s statement was not necessarily applicable in each and every case and he was discussing a ring game, not a tournament.
I bet 200. The BB called.
The turn is an off-suit J. The board is now Td,9d,8c, / Jh.
I bet another 200. I have 450 left. The BB puts me all in. I fold.
In hindsight, here is how I would critique myself:
1 The initial raise was ok.
2 When the flop came, I think I only had two choices-check and fold or go all in. I would not have felt confident going all in, so I would back off and wait for a better hand to go to war with.
3 My turn play was terrible, but I should not have been in that predicament if I had played the flop correctly.
Thanks Alden Chase (tyro)
I am also interested in the best way to proceed on the flop when you are stealing and you get caught. I tend to bet the flop unless it looks like it could hit your opponent.
One thing I am confused about your post. If the BB called your raise, you have last action. You imply you are first to act.
In your case,
1) Preflop you did fine. I might raise to 400.
2) On the flop there is 650 in the pot. You have 950 left. So it seems you have a few options. You should either check and admit you were on a steal or you should raise all-in. You do have middle pair with the best kicker. Betting small amounts only asks to be called. Betting 500 might be okay because that would leave you with 450.
3) Once there is 4 to a straight I would not add any money to the pot. Dump it and try again next hand.
Ken Poklitar
This hand was a killer in the tournament and there's really just one aspect of it that I was wondering about. The blind level was 150-300 and I had about 3100 on the button and I had AA. I raised just 300 on as the first one in. I did this because I thought that either the small blind or the big blind might call with a hand that I was a huge favorite over and I didn't want to just call because I thought this would tip my hand. This is the part of the hand that I'm wondering about. Was this a proper trap to set? I ended up losing to 87 suited. I'm pretty sure that I want 87 suited calling my raise everytime, but I'd like some other oponions. Should I have raised more before the flop?
Thanks for any responses. Peace
Goodie
Strangely enough I believe of all the hands going headsup against AA you found the one that does the best. I am sure 87s is #1 against AA.
I think it is fine to try to set a trap but you have to realize that there are no guarantees. Don't claim bad beat when you lose. If you only raise 300 then you might get both the SB and the BB. Now you are cutting down the chances of you winning.
I like to raise a bit more. I normally would raise 3x the BB. If I wanted to try to trap one of the blinds then maybe I cut the raise the 2x and make it 900 to go. What you really want is one of the blinds with Ax to call your raise. Then you have that hand really dominated. If the SB & BB players know what they are doing then they realize a raise from the button is quite often a steal. They may call a standard raise with lesser hands because of that.
The other issue is chip totals of the blinds and how your 3100 compares to other players on the table.
Ken Poklitar
I'm not claiming bad beat really, although I wasn't particularly happy about it. My question really was is it a bad move to try to trap in this situation so that I get at least a little more than just the blinds on the hand? I figured a limp from the button would scream monster, but I thought that a small raise would actually seem like I had a lesser hand than a big raise. The small and large blind were not strong players and I figured that they would take the raise as just that. And it seems as though they did.
Another question that I had was whether or not the Big blind was right to call. He said afterward that I didn't make it costly enough for him to muck, but he only had about 3500 so this was 10% of his stack. I wouldn't call in this spot, is it correct?
And if it isn't correct, wouldn't that make my smaller raise more correct considering that he wouldn't call if I made a bigger raise?
Thanks for any responses. Peace
Goodie
From the BB perspective. There is 1050 in the pot. He needs to add 300 so he is getting 3.5 to 1. So he should call.
AA (77%) vs 87s (23%).
Like I said before, a smaller raise lets in the BB cheap. You also might let the SB come in. You want the players to make an error calling. If you raise an extra 300 then there is 1350 in the pot and the BB needs to add 600. So the BB is getting about 2 to 1 which incorrect since he will lose more often that.
Ken Poklitar
What about the argument that you want him calling and don't think that he'll call for a 600 dollar raise? Don't you want to take a flop when you win 77% of the time?
Just a thought.
Peace
Goodie
I would rather charge him 600 or 900. If he doesn't pay then you take the blinds and a win.
Let me ask you this. How did your hand proceed? What was the flop/turn/river betting and cards? Did you slowplay the flop or did he flop a monster?
Just wondering,
Ken Poklitar
He ended up flopping trip eights. I put him on an overpair to the board and bet the flop and turn when checked to. I went all in on the turn and he obviously called.
I don't think I can get away from the hand after the flop but maybe I misplayed it then too.
Peace Goodie
It may not be such an issue on the Internet, but in live players there are players who do this and I _know_ they have AA or KK when they make the small raise. If you must do this, then make sure you mix in some other hands as well, maybe small pairs or suited connectors, early in the tournament anyway. In the later stages when the blinds are high compared to your chips, trapping is not a good idea.
Certain knowledge that a player has a big pair, combined with the knowledge of whether he will call down to the grim death (so you can win it all with 2 pair) or whether he is scared (so you can bluff him off it when a plausible draw comes in) makes it well worth calling from the blinds with all sorts of hands.
Andy.
I see you did well in the NL tourney at the British Open! I noticed that John Duthie ended up 9th. I was just wondering if you noticed him bluffing less or more since everyone knows what he did in the Poker Million. Not sure if you two played together much in the tourney.
Ken Poklitar
Ken, Try http://www.pokersoft.co.uk/reports/Vic200.htm (Andy's website) for some details.
Regards,
Richard
Thanks.
Great tournament report.
Ken
Glad you liked it, some of my friends thought it was too technical and not atmospheric enough :-).
As for John Duthie, as you can see in the report, we did tangle a few times in this comp. He made a couple of calls which I wasn't overly keen on. Still, if I had a million in the bank I might make the odd loose call.
Regarding his image from the Poker Million, I was aware that John is capable of manipulating any image he feels he has, and that I would basically never know if he was bluffing or double-bluffing in this respect, if you know what I mean. So I just played it as it lay, I felt on the night that he was raising more often than he reasonably could, especially in early position, so I played him just the same as any other over-aggressive player. As it happened I caught him out with KT.
Andy.
I was in a situation yesterday in a NL tourney when a solid player raised all-in preflop from early position. I was in middle position and had AdKs. The raiser was getting short-stacked and I had a slightly above average stack. Calling would have committed about one-third of my chips. I thought for a long time and decided to muck because I put the player on a big pocket pair where I was either a big dog or maybe a slight dog. Regardless, I didn't like the prospects of being the underdog. Also, there were two aggressive players to act behind me who had huge stacks and I didn't want them put in an additional big raise that would have trapped me. Do you guys agree with the fold, or should I have tried to eliminate the guy from the tourney with this hand?
After I folded, so did everyone else. The raiser showed QcJc and I was kicking myself. I don't regret my decision, but out of curiosity, I was wondering if any of you who have a simulation program could tell me how big of a favorite I was if I called. How often does AdKs win against QcJc? What if I had AdKd?
Thanks in advance for your help.
AdKs (59.78%) vs QcJc (40.22%)
AdKd (62.37%) vs QcJc (37.63%)
The decision to call his all-in is really dependent on what you feel he has. If you feel he has AA or KK, then a fold is clearly correct. If you think he has a lower pair then it's a 50/50 chance plus you might remove one of the solid players on the table. I would guess that more often then not you would be a favorite since as you said the raiser was short on chips.
If I did call I probably would go all-in myself so one of the remaining players do not also call.
Ken Poklitar
Thanks for the quick response. I guess I was a pretty decent favorite, but we'll never know because no one saw the flop. I hate it when we start with the "What if..." type of thinking...LOL!
Why don't you want the aggressive players to put in a big raise? If they're aggressive, they could easily do so with a hand like AQ or AJ, against which you're a mighty favorite. By hesitating like you did, and then just calling, you're trapping them. They now figure you have some small-medium pair, and will have to fold to their raise, and they can now play against the original raiser with the blinds and your call adding a bunch of dead money to the pot. Instead, you reraise over the top all-in, and maybe they fold, meaning you have to take the sizable sidepot and can freeroll for the main pot. If they don't fold, you risk going bust, but you do so as a favorite.
Now, if the aggressive player has AA or KK, that's just bad luck, or they're not so aggressive as you thought. This play would only be correct if they would make their raise with a variety of hands, most of which are behind your AK.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Playing in one of my weekly NL tourneys last week, there was a player on my immediate left that was running over the table. He was the clear chip leader (not only on the table, but also in the tourney). It was getting late in the tourney (last two tables) and he would raise preflop about 75% of the time to about 2x or 3x the BB and prevented anyone from just limping in for the minimum. At least half the table (including myself) was getting short-stacked and we pretty much folded most of the time to his raises because the number of chips bet would pretty much put us all-in. In the few instances when he was called, he would turn over hands that were total rags (Q4o) or actually great hands (AKs). The point here is that he was putting so much pressure on the table that he was successfully winning all the blinds and eventual antes. I really admired his play from a strategy perspective. He was hard to read and he was determined to eliminate us by simply winning our blinds (which were quickly increasing).
Being on my immediate left, I was in an awful position. If I just limped or raised with a decent hand (AQo or 77), I was almost always in danger of facing an all-in reraise. My hand selection almost limited me to calling only with premium hands like AA, KK, QQ, AK, etc. (which never came), and the blinds were eating me alive. I couldn't even play my SB. Is there any way to effectively handle this situation? Should I loosen up and gamble with marginal hands or sit back and wait for a premium hand?
He eventually elimated me on the final table when he raised 3x the BB with 44 and everyone foled to me in the BB. I had KJo and only had about 1.5 big bets left, so it was a no brainer for me to call. I completely missed the flop and to make matters worse, he flopped a set. At least I finished in the money! I had to leave to go to work, so I don't know if the guy won the tourney or not.
Also, any thoughts on my recent post on "Small Connectors and Suited Rags UTG Short Stacked" would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Problem with this sort of player is timing you have to catch him with rags which he will have 75% of the time.
I'd say any pair A8+ K9+ is eneough to play back at a guy like this. He is playing on the fact that everyone is tightening up near the money. Actually a guy like this is easy to deal with unless he out draws you which is possible.
One advantage to having the guy on your left is that when he raises you can know for certain whether your reraises (steals or otherwise) will be a heads-up situation. Because (as Rounder notes) he will usually have trash you can pick off nice pots if you don't overdo it. You can also limp/reraise or check-raise with good hands, because you KNOW he's going to bet.
The blinds are 5 and 10. UTG makes it 20 to go. I have 99 in middle position. I just call. Should I have raised? There were 4 callers after me. So, I'm figuring I probably have to hit my set to win.
Anyways, the flop comes 987 all hearts. Utg bets 300. Now, this to me looks like an overpair with no heart. He looks like he's trying to shut out the flush draws. So I re-raise all in for about 200 more. I don't want the flush draws in there either. Is this sound reasoning? Is there another way to play this?
Thanks for any responses. Peace
Goodie
I think your play was fine. Preflop, calling the raise is fine. I believe that you want to see the flop here with 99 for a cheap price. An early position raiser will usually need to raise with a premium hand here and if you don't hit the flop, then you get away cheap. If you were first to act, then I think you have to raise 3x BB with your 99. The flop is scary, but I think you did the right thing. Players behind you are unlikely to call for their flush and straight draws and your all-in bet may even chase out someone who has made a small flush (why someone like that would call the preflop bet is something that I can't explain) or even a J10 straight. If by chance the preflop raiser flopped the nut flush (AhKh), then you still have outs to draw to (unless he made a straight flush, of course).
I was in a NL tourney yesterday when early position raiser raised 3x BB with AdQd. A middle position player called, I called with 99, and button called. The flop was 9 8 2 rainbow. Early raiser went all-in and middle player went all-in! I had them both covered and took the big pot of course!
What are the results of your hand?
I think you did fine.
I like the flat call preflop because a player acting after you can easily wake up with a big hand. Plus the original raiser could reraise if he indeed has a big hand. So calling and hoping for a set is the best course, IMO.
On the flop, I like your play. If indeed he has a flush then you have draws against him. I think typical players would slowplay it here. I too would have ruled out a made flush. This could be an overpair or a hand like AhKx.
Hope you took it.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
With 99 I would most likely just call the mini-raise and see what the flop brings. As you said if you don't hit your flop you can get out cheap. I am guessing UTG has 2 big cards, maybe JJ or QQ.
His huge bet is screaming overpair or something like the A hearts or an open-ender. If he has the made flush, then betting that much is silly unless he knows he will get a caller. The only made flush I can see him having is QJ but even then overbetting the pot that much is probably wrong.
If you are going to call which seems to make sense I agree with going all-in.
Ken Poklitar
Another pokerpages hand.
I have 509, about 60 left, but there are 3 stacks over 1200 at my table. Blinds are 25-50.
One big stacks limps early, another biggie limps after, small stack limps in cut-off, SB calls 25.
I am BB and have KK. There is 200 in the pot.
How much do I raise?
How many callers do I really want?
Should I be happy to just take the dead money and move on?
Thanks as usual. Results later if anyone cares.
KJS
5 qualify and I finish 6th.
Ironically, the other two pots I went all-in featured the same dilemma as above:
Do I want to risk all my chips with a pair heads-up against a non-paired hand?
Of course, with KK I do. So on the hand above I pushed all-in out of the BB trying to win the dead money and myabe get called by someone thinking I am putting on a move. Probably overkill, right. Should I have invited calls? Well I got called by one hand--AQ--and lost to a pair of Aces. But, I should be glad he called right?
A few hands later. I am down to 2000 or so. I have 22 in BB. Three limpers (yes, people do that too much) and I raise all-in again from BB. Overkill? Again, I get a match-up I want: 22 v. K9! I lose again.
But, I scratch back and end up at final table. 6 left, and I have 2100 on button. Blinds are 500-1000 but are up soon. All fold to me. SB has 15K. BB has 1700 after posting. Its looks like its me or him finishing out of the money.
I have 55. I raise all-in. SB folds. He calls with AJ and rivers a J. Again, I was favored pre-flop but lose the pot. Should I have just called, inviting the huge stack in, and then gone all-in on the flop, making the non-paired AJ decide to continue? But, of course, SB could've gotten a pair or better on the flop. In fact, his stack is so big he'd call for sure (I am surprised he folded his blind, really).
Are these chances too slim to risk it?
KJS
Well you did better than I did. I ended up 30th. Lost with A5s against KQs (same suits).
I would not raise with 22 against 2 limpers. I would see the flop cheap and hope for a set.
With the 55 it is raise or fold. If you just limp you will get called by the SB and then you have to beat 2 players and you know for sure there will be overcards on the flop.
Ken Poklitar
Ken,
Here is my thinking on the 22 hand.
As you know, there is much to much limping in these tourneys. I have, with some success, used the tactic of attacking the limpers (and blinds, consequently) when people show weakness by limping in. On the 22 hand, I had the opportunity to add 350 to my stack of 2100 by trying to push people off their 100 bets. From experience I would say my chances of everyone folding, taking into account the late stage and the fact that none of them were huge stacks, is about 50%. I also surmise that no one has a pair, or else they would have raised. I also think that only one player will call me. Therefore, I think 1/2 the time I will win the dead money and 1/2 the time I will be heads-up against a non-pair. Yes, all cards are overcards, but they still have to hit one of theirs.
I guess I am asking you: If you *knew* that you would get called by K9 only, would you do it?
Respond by email if you prefer.
KJS
If I know that he has K9o, then I know that I am a slight favorite. Depending on my stack, his stack and the other players stacks on the table, I might take the 52-48 chance. I would rather find situations where I am better than 50-50.
I am not a big fan of overbetting the pot like you did. The pot is T350. You raised another T1700 or so. When I see someone do that it screams low pair or an outright steal attempt. I can't imagine what K9 would be doing calling your raise.
If you overbet the pot with good and great hands then the strategy may work. The problem of course is when someone calls you with a good pair and you are very dominated. The great thing about these free tournies is you can play around with different strategies and see what works for you.
Ken Poklitar
Ken,
Good observation. I think you are 100% right when people overbet first in, which I think is the second most common mistake in the free tournies (after too much limping). I have made some good money calling these with middle pairs and even big cards when I have them covered, and finding hands like QTs and the like. I think my problem is that I take too many of these 52-48 type chances and if a couple don't hit then I find myself a bit crippled. If I do keep up with the overbetting I will do it with great hands, like my KK, and some others that I still have a slight edge, like my 22. Thanks as usual.
Kevin
It sounds like whoever called you with K9 vs. your 22 was pretty short-stacked (if the loss still left you with enough to make the final table), so you can't blame him for his call too much, and the AJ was a must-call by the BB in the last hand. It's hard to fault you for the all-in from the button, but I might have considered folding (?!?) and hoping for the SB to bust the other small stack. A lot of these Pokerpages players don't understand late-game survival. I've seen big stacks go after each other with 7 or 8 players left. I might sit and hope the other small stack gets nervous and makes a mistake. Either that, or hope you catch a monster that you can double up with in the next 4 hands. You probably did the right thing, though. 55 plays pretty well heads up. If it holds up, you qualify. Just got unlucky.
Bob,
I think I had the K9 covered by only about 500. I got extraordinarily lucky to recover. I stole some blinds and won small pot and then hit the jackpot when I got AA in the BB and someone got KK on the button. That was what boosted me to the final table.
I did consider folding my 55, but the blinds were going up and were going to knock me out in 6th if I didn't hit a monster. Felt like that was my best chance. The BB looked like he was in "fold into the money" mode and I wanted to press the issue. Got unlucky this time.
As always, I am glad to do well enough to get experiences in all phases of tournament play.
KJS
nt.
In a Pokerpages tourney just a couple days ago, UTG limped (for 30, I think), I limped in cutoff, button raised 100 (from stack of 600+), blinds folded, UTG all in for 450 or so, I fold, button calls.
Needless to say: UTG AA, button KK.
Since it was an all-in, suspense was lost on the rapid-fire deal, BUT, button flopped a set, UTG turned a set to stay alive. Actually, the board went (I think) K-J-6-A-3. And what did I fold. Q-10, of course. True story. Pretty funny.
I think you make it eigther 200 to go or all in.
I don't like to go all in here but a 200 bet might get you heads up with a hand you dominate OR win it right there. Which I suspect you will do here about 1/2 the time.
I would raise another 250 or so (about half your stack).
You want someone with Kx to call your raise :) One caller at the most.
I would be happy with the pot at that point.
Ken Poklitar
The blinds are T100 and T200 with a T25 ante. I have T1575 when ther hand begins. A second position player goes allin for T525. A third position player calls, He has T2100 when the hand begins. I am in forth position holding AK. I raise allin. It is my objective to get heads up with the original raiser. By the way both of these players are excellent and well known tournament players. There is T2100 in the pot for the remaining player to win if he calls T1025. He calls. The first player holds AQ. The second player holds A3. What do you think of the second players original call and subsequent call of my raise? What do you think of my going allin with two players already competing for the pot?
I don't like your all-in raise in this particular situation. First of all, it is unlikely that they are on a steal because of their big bets from early position. Second, you state that they are excellent players. Given these two facts, I'd at least think that one of them has a hand like AA, KK, QQ, or AK. If this is the case, then your AK is unlikely to be a big favorite. What was your read of these two players when they made their decisions? I'm assuming that you felt that you were ahead with AK. What would you have done if someone behind you came over-the-top (most likely representing AA or KK)?
As for player two, who called with A3, I don't really like either of his calls. I suppose his call of the first all-in was ok because he only has to call with about 25% of his chips. However, I really question his call of your all-in bet. Maybe I play too tight, but if I played A3 and someone behind me came over-the-top, then I'd be fairly certain that I was behind. A better move for him may have been to go all-in first and force you to make a tougher decision.
I think you got lucky here because your AK dominates AQ and A3. By the way, what are the results of the hand?
Since the 1st all-in has few chips compared to the blinds I am not overly worried about his hand. Your AK is most likely better. He may have a pair or any ace.
I would be more worried about the player who has you covered and only smooth calls the all-in raise. I would put this player on a better hand then the 1st player. Is he the type that might try to trap other players with a KK or AA in this situation. It may be best to dump your hand. If you are not going to dump I think going all-in is the other option.
I am surprised that the second player has something as weak as A3. I wouldn't put up 25% of my chips preflop with that crap against an all-in. I certainly wouldn't call your all-in raise.
Hope you won the hand,
Ken Poklitar
I agree that the original raiser could have a pretty weak hand, and is hoping to steal the blinds before paying them, or at least to only get called by a somewhat random hand in the big blind, against which he can be a favorite. So, I put him on any pair, any A, any decent K. Against this range, AK is well in the lead. The caller is hard to read. He doesn't have crap for sure, but how strong does he have to be here? In his shoes, I might call with a monster hand like AA or KK, figuring on building a sidepot after the flop (because if I raise preflop, it's very unlikely I'll get a player). I might also call with any hand that plays well against the raiser's range of hands, IF I expect no one else will play. I would need a good A, maybe AT or better, or a pair of 8s or 9s or better to call here.
Considering the above, I like your raise. You hope he folds, and you hope he isn't slowplaying a monster. The thing is, if you just call, and he bets a flop where you didn't flop a pair, what do you do? Is he semi-bluffing with 2 overcards that you beat or tie, is he building that sidepot with his AA, did he flop a set to his 99, or is he just hoping that the J on the flop missed you, and he's betting his 99. Or, you were ahead, but his AT just made top pair. You won't know, so unless he's going to check when he misses, you'll be guessing. Even if he checks, if you've missed, is he trapping or is he checking a real hand to try and eliminate the all-in? Rather than guess, I'd rather put him to a decision preflop, and make sure that I'm not guessing wrong postflop.
His call of the original raise looks awful to me. I just don't see it at all. The only thing I can figure is that he knows the original raiser, and knows under the circumstances that the guy will raise with pretty much anything, in which case A3 is a slight favorite (but not by much). His call of your raise isn't bad, just desperate. By my count, there is almost 1900 in the pot counting your call, and your raise puts in slightly more than 1000 more, giving him pot odds approaching 3:1. A3 is only a worse dog to AA, considering just your hand. Considering the opposing hand also, he is still getting proper pot odds most of the time. His biggest nightmare is a better A and a pair combined against him, leaving him a 6:1 dog.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Did the three fall on the flop, turn, or river?
Final table in a NL 20 dollar buy-in tourney. I go from short stack to tall stack in two hands. Four of us are left. I have about twice what the other three each have, and they offer me this deal: They each take $595, leaving me with $935. I see that 4th pays 240, third pays 400 something and second pays $770. First pays $1340. I took the deal and now I'm wondering if I got taken.
I did the math and I believe it works out equitably, EXCEPT when you factor in taxes. The other three each came in "under the radar" with their $595 (no W2 necessary) but I had to fill out tax forms meaning I'll owe 30 percent or so right back to my Uncle Sam, meaning my net equity for having 2X the chips of anybody at the table is just about $60. I have never won a tournament before, and I figured the guarantee of more than 2nd place cash with the blinds and antes at "crap shoot" levels justified the deal. Did I just learn a valuable lesson?
I usually don't like to deal with 4 or more. What is more important than the stack difference (which IS important) is how you feel you ca nplay against the 3 pther players. There are players I'd never deal with cuz they are weak and don't really play well short handed there are other players I respect and would cut a deal with.
As usual it depends but since you took the deal it was OK. Congrats on the win.
Well, you would have owed that money to Uncle Sam even if it went unreported, right? I mean, here at Foxwoods, they don't ever report anything anymore, yet I still pay taxes on my profit each year. Don't you? ;-)
Anyway, if you play on and come in second, you still get reported, and you win less. The only way you get more than this deal is by winning outright, and according to your math, that's only about $280 better than the deal (after taxes).
Take the deal, or decide you don't deal at all. Or, for bargaining leverage, explain to these guys that you like the deal except for this tax problem. Maybe they will agree to give up an extra $20 or $30 each to help out with that aspect. In fact, even though I report it all anyway, I'm going to remember this one if I find myself in such a situation. I just love to out-negotiate people at the final table. It feels better than pulling off a big bluff.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
(Table d15, Hand 114, Day 149)
Full table, 225 (of 1000) left in the tournament. Blinds 1.5 and 3K, ante .5, full table. Folded to a big stack (180K) in the cutoff who raises 3.5K, called by the button (40K), SB folds. 19K in the pot, I'm in the BB with QsJs and a 15K stack.
Fold, Call or Raise? And what's your post flop strategy?
fnx, John
Call preflop. If you flop top pair or better, be prepared to get it all-in, unless you have specific knowledge of one of these players that makes you suspect they're holding AA or KK. Even so, call preflop, as you'll know how to play optimally postflop, and the pot odds you're being offered are too good to refuse, IMO.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Will be at Foxwoods for the upcoming tournament.If you have a room and are looking to defray the cost E-mail me at edgeweyes@hotmail.com. 3/28, 3/29,3/30.
Played in the $35 buy-in limit stud tournament last night, and for the third time in three tries, I busted out in the fourth round. At least I'm consistent. I have a couple of hands I'd like to submit for the panel's consideration:
A little less than an hour in, low card brings it in, fold, fold, and the next player raised with an Ace in the door. I had not played with this guy before, but he had only raised on third street once before and he had a big pair on that hand. Next player folds. I'm next to act with (J2)J and no two-flush. Aces, Jacks, and Deuces are all live. I'm a bit short-chipped by this point. I decide to fold, figuring that I'm either behind or not terribly far ahead, and the Ace ends up winning the antes, which was kind of odd as this was a pretty loose table. Comments?
After the break, the ante is $25, the bring-in $50, and the limits are $100 and $200. I've got a whopping $75 left, so the outlook wasn't brilliant. My first hand was (Jd8s)Td, or something to that effect. It was a gapped three-straight with a two-flush in that range. Nines were live as were most of my other straight cards. There was a diamond or two out. I mucked and wound up going all-in on the third hand with garbage and losing to a pair of eights or some such. Upon reflection, I think I might have done better to go all-in with the JT8. It's not the worst hand in the world, certainly better than a random hand, and I've got two more random hands before I bust out. Comments?
J2J - Standard fold. When a higher doorcard raises on 3rd street, you should (almost) never be playing an underpair unless your kicker is higher than their doorcard. Even then, a fold is often the better choice.
JT8 - Yes, you should have played. You've already put 1/3 of your chips into the ante, and will be getting at least 5:1 on your last 50 by calling. If the hand ends up heads-up, there is almost no matchup in stud where you're 5:1 behind barring the opponent holding rolled-up trips. If it's not heads-up, at least you're getting even more of a payoff.
More importantly, once your stack was approaching a point where you couldn't play a hand without being all-in, you need to be aggressively looking for opportunities. I suspect one of more of the hands you folded just prior to the break should have been played, and played for a raise.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hi Greg,
Concerning the "jacks against aces" advice you gave, what about if his position were different and he had raised 'into' the ace(up) on third street. Now the ace three bets him, does he call now since the math changes things a bit? Also, how about if he bets the jacks 'into' the ace(up)and gets popped by a player who would ONLY raise him with aces, or with a hidden pair bigger than the jack?
-Don
Yes, if the pot is "somehow" bigger, then folding might be a mistake. A big factor here is how much money the player has left. If the JJ completes, the A raises, and the JJ only has a few bets left, then he should probably go ahead and chase here, and hope he gets lucky. If it's real close to the money though, then folding will still often be correct.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Probably need a little more info in both cases, but generally:
Tempting as it is to stay, ask yourself this,"Does he have AA or a bigger pair than I have?" If you think so, you should fold. You would fold if you had 2,2 wouldn't you? I would in this case.
Considering you had a sunstantial ante and you are getting enough odds to play here, I think you should play.
I've decided to post this hand after thinking about it since it happened on Tuesday of this week.
The setup is the following:
This is a home tourney, single table, sorta like a satellite. I was (sadly) not involved in the hand since I had busted earlier. We are down to 3 players, it pays the top 2. The blinds are 100-200 with a T50 ante. The button is the chip leader with about T3500, the SB is the lowest stack with about T1000 and the BB has T1500. All three are good players.
Here's how the hand went:
Button raises to T500 (he has been raising a lot)and surprisingly enough, both blinds call. So there is T1650 in the pot.
Flop comes: 8 5 3 rainbow
SB checks, BB goes all-in. Button thinks about it and finally mucks (he had QJ). SB has KQs and calls (I'm not sure if he had a backdoor or not).
The BB shows ATo. Noone improves and SB is busted.
Please rate everyone's play preflop and on the flop.
Thanks,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Nicholas,
What is the structure for your tourney? After how many rounds do you start to have an ante? Does it stimulate more action? Make it go faster? We don't use antes in ours and I wonder the effects of having one.
Regarding the hand. I think the BB knew something about the button. Perhaps he assumed he was not too strong, or would have raised more. Seems like a gamble that paid off. I would not have been inclined to go all-in with A high, T kicker, unless I had a good read on my opponents when the flop came out. I think the SB's call is a bad one, but he does have 1/2 his chips committed. My guess is he could have moved in on the flop and maybe won the pot.
KJS
KJS:
The structure we use is the following:
Blinds start at: 5-5, then 5-10, 10-20, 25-50, 50-100 and 100-200. Then we introduce a T50 ante at the second level of 100-200, then only the ante doubles at 100. Then everything doubles. (it's rare we get to that point) All of these every 30 minutes.
There is always about T6000 in play. (I vary the stack size of each player depending on the number of players present as we want to keep the lenght of the tournament to about 3h30). This structure works like a charm. Really, we always end it around 3h30. (We play on a week day and everyone works the next day so we can't afford to make it last much longer)
Because there is not that many chips in play, instead of doubling the blind at 200-400 (which we used to do and which means that heads-up if you raise preflop you're almost pot commited), we keep the blinds at 100-200 and use an ante to get rid of the smaller stacks. It hurts just as much without it becomming a crapshoot. As far as stimulating action, there is plenty anyway and I don't feel it makes a significant difference.
If you have anymore questions,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Pre-flop. =========
Button - 3 handed QJ may well be the best plus it puts pressure on the blinds. So I think a raise is fine.
SB - Again KQs is a nice hand 3 handed. If there is a lot of raising going on then I think if I was SB I would fold or go all-in. All-in probably is better.
BB - Having to only pay an extra 300 makes the call a no-brainer. I am not sure if there is any advantage of raising anymore at this point.
Flop ====
SB - Going all-in might have won the pot. You have to believe someone has an ace so that might be the only way to win the hand.
BB - BB is betting that everyone is playing big cards and missed. Going all-in is a reasonable semi-bluff.
Button - Good fold.
SB - There is 2150 in the pot if SB calls the all-in. If SB folds, SB has 500 and the antes and blinds will eat away at the chips. Like I said before I would have either raised all-in preflop or lead the betting on the flop. So calling probably is okay.
Ken Poklitar
One of my local cardrooms is having a tournament with an interesting structure.
The tourney is a points-qualifying tourney (you get a point for every blind you put in). It is strictly hold-em NL. They take the top 30 points qualifiers.
Every player will start with at least 50 chips. For every 100 points above 300 points, you will get another 10 chips. There will be one optional rebuy during the first 40 minutes and one add-on at the end of the rebuy period (each costs $10 and gets you another 50 chips).
Blinds progress as follows: 1-2, 2-4, 5-10, 10-20, 20-40, 40-80, 80-160 etc. The first two rounds are each 20 minutes long. After that, rounds are 15 minutes long.
Payout is about $700, $400, $250, $180, $180.
There will be a serious difference in starting chips. Most players will have around 60-80 chips, but some players will start with over 250 chips.
Some questions: First, what do people think of this method of awarding players? Second, how would you adjust your play if you start off with a below-average stack? Third, how would you adjust your play if you start off with an above average stack?
My general tournament strategy is to play very very tight during the first hour or so and then become more aggressive. This has generally been pretty successful for me.
A few of my local casinos have monthly limit tournaments that are free but you get more chips based on more hours. I personally hate them. I don't play enough hours to get much more than the minimum. It is tough enough to win when everyone starts with the same but when some players can out chip you 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 it is extra tough.
Now the one nice thing for you is this is a NL tourney. You have the ability to double up. It seems that you need to find a spot in the 1st two rounds where you can double up. The blind structure going from 2-4 to 5-10 seems crazy. Not sure if that is an error.
Good luck,
Ken Poklitar
There is nothing to this. How would you handle it if you found yourself short-stacked in the middle of a tourney, but the blinds were still pretty small relative to your stack? Play it like that, and who cares whether its the first hand or the 100th.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I don't play in too many of the big tourneys, and I'm just wondering what the rules of the satellites and super-sattelites are. Do you have to take the seat in the main event, or can you just take the money and run?
For instance, I read about a lot of tourney vets who sometimes win 3 or 4 sattelites. If they use one entry, what to do they do with the other victories?
Satallites and Super satallites are 2 very gifferent things.
A satallite is a single table no rebuy freeze out winner take all event lasting from 15 min to a couple of hours. 10 players put up what ever the entry fee is + the juice then battle it out got all the money. There are usually deals done here and the money is in tournament chips (which may be sold) and cash.
A super sat. is several tables usually rebuys allowed but not always. The players are playing for seats in the big or next tournament 1st win is must be used by the winner and subsequent seats may be sold. It is possible for several people to win seats depending on how much money is in the pot.
I have played in super sats with over 250 players and awarding more than 6 $10,000 wsop seats.
Late stages of this morning's Warm-Up, 25 people left, I have about T2200, blinds 100/200. Not bad, but I'm feeling a little pressure to double up. I get dealt AA (yay!). All fold to me. Small blind has been going in with just about anything, so I make it only 400 to go. SB calls (naturally), BB folds to make it heads up.
Flop comes 642. SB bets about 500 (?). I go all-in, SB calls.
Two questions:
1) Should the raise have been larger? I wanted to take someone along with me, because just stealing the blinds wasn't going to do me an incredible lot of good at this point, as there were several players with 4000 or more, and the blinds were going up soon.
2) Should I have gone all-in? SB HAD been going in with just about anything, but I figured a made hand would've drawn a larger bet, so I dismissed 53 and 64 as possible hands.
Results later...
--Chris
1) If the raise had been larger you might have accomplished just what you said you really didn't want to do, steal the blinds. Especially if he had the rags you mentioned in #2.
2) If the SB had a made hand such as 53 or 64, I think he would have done just what he did, check (putting you on a big pair); to trap you into a big or all in bet. I still like your all in bet though, because if he just has a piece of the flop and a str8 draw you don't want to give him a free card. Some might think giving the free card might not be so bad. If he turns a big hand and bets you can easily release the hand. I like your agressive approach better though and most likely would have done the same thing you did. It all comes back to how well you know your opponents. I'll check the results.
I believe your first raise should have been 3X the BB. This is standard. When the caller bets T500 you are left with the decision to call or raise. I don't think you can consider folding. You could have raised him T500 to define the hands. I think your allin raise is fine.
...SB had called a preflop raise, bet out on a 642 flop, and called a subsequent all-in raise, with K3o. SB had a couple hundred chips left after calling the all-in.
Needless to say (otherwise, why would I be posting this?), a 5 fell on the turn, and I busted out in 25th.
In retrospect (and by that I mean having had a chance to cool off), I think I would've done the same things again. Just got run over by blind luck.
--Chris
Just as I suspected. I still would have played it the same as you. They won't get lucky on you most of the time.
Math Guy,
I am so sorry you lost the pot. That is a horrible horrible beat. As you said, this was one of those pots you were destined to loose. Not much you could do differently. I can answer your question about what he was thinking...he was thinking about donuts.
nt
This is similar to the hand posted by Goodie on March 6.
1) I would normally raise to 800 (3x BB). If I really want him to call I might raise to 600. Raising only to 400 allows both blinds to call.
2) I don't think you can dismiss any hands. You said he has been playing anything so he could have anything. He could have 2 pair, a set or even a straight or a straight draw. Going all-in says you believe he has only one pair or a draw. Hope you made the correct choice.
Ken Poklitar
True or false?:
You make most of your money in a no limit tournament by winning pots with the best hand (not by bluffing). Conversely, you lose most of your money by calling or raising with the second best hand (or worse) or by getting caught bluffing (which is usually expensive). What do ya think?
Como
If you mean that you shouldn't bluff in NL tournaments, you're definitely wrong. If you mean you make more money showing down the best hand than in any other way, you're probably wrong. The good players use a strong combination of straight bluff/semi-bluff/slowplay/value betting, etc. to end up with the most chips. One good indicator of the "it's not the cards, it's the players" theory is that at the final table of the WSOP main event, less than 10% of the hands played get called at the river (yes, those pots that do are a lot bigger than those that don't, but I don't know about 90% bigger).
Played in a NL tournament today. I ended up in 5th and took home some money but I am wondering about 2 blind plays that I made late in the tourney.
1) Blinds are 800-1500, antes 300, 7 players left. I am the 2nd smallest stack with 10k. I am in SB with 77. There are 4 limpers. I have not seen any big hands limped in. I decide to only call. I figured if I go all-in I get atleast one caller and maybe two. Raise, call or fold from the SB?
2) Blinds are still 800-1500. 5 players left. My stack has shrunk to 8k and is the smallest. Buttons opens for 4500. SB folds. I am in BB with ATo. I decided to fold. Raise, call or fold?
A few hands later someone limped in. I raised all-in with AKo with 6k. He called with A9s and hit a 9 on the flop.
Oh well live and learn,
Ken Poklitar
Ken:
HAND 1
I think you played it fine. If you felt that there was a good chance every player would fold (which would be rare, IMO) or that not more than 1 player would call then raising all-in could be a valid play. Another big concern is that you said you did not see any big hand limp pre-flop (which would make raising all-in less scarier). However, since you stated than you'd likely get at least 1 caller and maybe more, then I think limping is the way to go. You pray for your set. A set plays very well from an early position. I would have played it the same way.
HAND 2
I think this hand depends too much on other factors you did not mention. How was your read on the button? How small was you stack compared to the second smallest? Was there a big difference in $ between 5th and 4th place? In general, ATo is a much better raising hand than a calling one although if you had a good read on the button and you thought he was week then pushing it could have been a good play. Especially if the difference in pay between 4th and 5th is small and you feel you need to make a move to have a shot at the big money.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
In the second hand there wasn't much difference between 4th and 5th. 5th was 250 and I think 4th was 290.
I had already seen a few of the buttons raising hands and the AT was better than a few of them. Still I figured it was better to wait because as Greg stated I am sure he will call my re-raise.
Ken Poklitar
OK, but don't you want him to call if you feel your hand is better? (say A9, A8, KT etc...)
Especially since you'll need more ammo to get into 3rd place.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
That is key. Also, if he figures to have any A, any K (or a selection of them, say KQ down to K8), or any pair, then you can play your AT for value, and that's fine since you need to win some chips to move up to a finish that pays significantly more money. Now, if all of the remaining players are gambling it up, then you can fold your way to 3rd or 2nd maybe, but otherwise, you do need to win some pots, eh? While not a great opportunity, this may be better than what you're likely to get in time. It depends upon how broad a range of hands you're giving this player credit for holding.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
If I only call, I am sure he will call the bet. There is 10800 in the pot. I would be surprised if my bet of 5000 would win that pot.
I think the choice of just calling and betting the flop might work if I had closer to 10k to bet instead of 5k. I do like this play and I need to use it when the opportunity arises.
You and Nicolas might be right that I should have played the hand. I was fortunate that I did find a playable hand before the blinds. Unfortunately that player hit his kicker.
Ken Poklitar
Let me say first that I like Nicolas' post. No arguments from me.
AT hand. Definitely no raise preflop. You know without a doubt that he will call your preflop raise, and no matter what he has, he isn't a big dog. However, if you call, you can bet the flop (any flop) and hope that he gives you credit for a better hand (whether you have one or not) and folds. If he calls, hope you're ahead or catch up.
Now, whether you should do that or not depends upon the prize structure, and the chances that some other player(s) will go broke before you get blinded away. If they're all still gambling a lot, then folding is probably correct. If the table is playing raise and take it preflop, then I would be inclined to play this hand (unless there is a big jump in prize money for 4th).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Here is an interesting hand that I played yesterday in a NL tourney. It is the final table.
7 players left. I have 10k in chips. He has 12k. Blinds are 600-1200 and a 200 ante. Folded to me in SB. I have KTo. I do a mini-raise to 2400. (I actually meant to raise 2400 but I ended up only raising 1200). BB who has me covered calls. Flop comes QJx of spades. I have an open ender. I bet the same 2400. He calls. Turn is x. I check. He checks. I would have folded to a bet. River is the beautiful A. I go all-in with my straight. He folds assuming I hit my pair on the river.
Any comments,
Ken Poklitar
Ken -
I'm not sure there was much you could do. Steal blind raise before the flop - good. Semi-bluff flop - good. Give up on turn when it bricks - probably good given your stack size, but this may have been a good place to follow through with your bluff and push all in. He's going to have a difficult time calling you with a weak Q and any J.
Once he checks behind you on the turn he probably has a J. He should bet a Q. Would he try to semi-bluff you with the flush draw?
The A has to be a scary card on the river for him, unless he called you with a bare A on the flop. If he's the aggressive type, I'd trap him with a check, but given the fact that he checked on the turn, he can't have much. I'd bet and take the pot, like you.
-Oz-
When he checked behind on the turn, you should know it's gonna be hard to get paid off if you hit on the river.
My guess is he had something like K-J, with maybe the K of spades. With the all-in bet, you're basically saying you either hit a straight, or made aces up. I would have considered checking and hoping for a steal attempt on his part. Maybe he would have thought the ace scared you.
All depends on how you were reading the other guy.
Your bet is expected, at many levels. If you were pushing AK and backed off when called, he expects you to bet it here. If you had an underpair, again you might think you can take advantage of the A to bluff him off his pocket underpair.
So, betting all-in doesn't mean anything to me, as it could be a variety of made hands, or a bluff. I still have to guess which it is.
The question is what would you expect this guy to do if you check, or if you bet small, like 2400 again. If he has a J, he is going to have a hard time laying it down when he's getting 5:1 and you may be bluffing, so a bet of 2400 has some merit. However, it all depends upon this player, and what you expect of them.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
One thing I've integrated into my tourney play is the idea expoused by Mason wrt to how the size of your stack affects the value of your chips. I don't make thin EV value bets on the end when I have to go all in. A hand came up recently that makes me refine this idea a little wrt position.
Single table 10 handed LHE satellite. Limits 100 - 200, I'm in the SB with T750, surrounded by the big stacks (T1200+). I have AQs. All fold to the cut off seat who limps. Table maniac on the button raises. The BB is fairly solid, I raise to get it 3 handed or heads up. The BB unexpectedly calls as do the other 2 players. 1200 in the pot.
Flop: 39Q, 2 hearts (not my suit). I lead and all three call. Pot 1600.
Turn: 2 no flush. Knowing I have draws against me, I lead again. Again all three call. I have T175 left. Pot 2400.
River: 7, no flush. I have no idea where I am and using Mason's principle I check, not wanting to commit my last chips. Everyone checks and I take a huge pot and am now the table leader. (I went on to win it, in case anyone is interested.)
Since this was the pivotal hand of the tourney for me, I was reviewing it and realized I made a mistake on the river. This should have been an easy bet for me, since I'm definately going to call if it's bet, and I may extract some more chips from worst hands since the pot is humungous. It's here that I realized that Mason's principle only applies when you have position. If I'm on the button with the same hand, it's an easy check.
-Oz-
You're exactly right. Position is crucial. It sounds like in this particular hand, you were up against at least one flush draw, maybe pocket 10's or something similar, and perhaps a K-Q or Q-J.
I think you had to bet for the same reason you stated. With no flush or straight draws, a completely uncoordinated board, think about what hands that would call two raises pre-flop could beat you. A set is the only one, and it seems like you would have heard from that by now (with there being two hearts on the flop).
So you got to think top pair-best kicker is good. Bet out. I'd think you'd get at least one crying call.
This is a classic, classic example of reading some advice and trying to apply it without understanding it. The theory of small stacks being worth more only applies in a proportional payout tournament. It does not apply in a winner take all event.
I suggest you re-read the relevant text. Post again if you do not see why the above applies.
Andy.
Fair enough. But in this case it was a proportional payout (the infamous PP one table tourneys). 1-50%, 2-33%, 3-17%. Since most 1 table satellites are winner take all, I can understand your assumption.
Thanks for making the issue clear.
-Oz-
Oops ! Sorry. I should have asked what the payout structure was rather than jumping to conclusions. I should also apologise for the tone of my post, I was a little tired when I posted it.
Andy.
Andy is right on the money.
In a winner take all tournament, whether you have T25 left or T1500 does not make a difference if you don't end up with all of the chips at the end. You can't survive and move up the pay scale, there is no scale.
You have to take all the +EV situations you can. If you believe you have the best hand, then bet (or raise). Those extra chips you win brings you closer to the goal.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Loving it.
I finally got involved in cash play on Paradise. The Foxwoods Tuesday night NL HE tourney got cancelled because of the big snowstorm, so I decided to try these out, and opened up a cash account. Since then, I've played 8 of these things. 2 @ $20, 2 @ 30, and 4 @ 50. No money in any of the cheaper ones, but have placed 2, 1, 1, and 1 in the $50s.
The overall play isn't terrible, but there has always been 2-4 really bad players in each event. I'm sure I can average at least a 3rd place result (i.e., double my money), long term, if play doesn't improve. Wish they would start offering these played NL, as I think I could do even better.
See you there.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
I hope to battle it out with you soon. Of course, it would be so much fun if they were NL. Keeping the fingers crossed.
I think a good player can do pretty well in these. I've played around 80-85 tourneys and I average a place finish about 40-45% of the time, well over money wise. (mostly at 10, 20 and 30$)
Good luck,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
ps: if you play any of the NEPC satellites in 2 weeks then I'll be sure to meet you at a table. I'm playing also in the NL event on the 30th.
Greg Raymer wrote:
> Wish they would start offering these played NL, as I think I could do even better.
That would be great fun, but i suspect collusion would be a bigger concern then?
....The Balrog....
They are fun, and addictive so watchout.
I've played 230 or so now, 1-3 about 35-40%.
NoLim would be nice, the creditcard fraud issue isnt there and I dont see collusion being that much more dangerous than it is in limit mode, some but not prohibitively so.
Email me your ID so I know to stay away. Beware a few of the better FWoods nolim players are regulars...now one more is ;-)
Great to see you playing on Paradise, Greg.
In my opinion I think it would be hard to average a 3.0 strike rate, I've been playing these things for a while now and avergae 4.13 after 19 x $20 tournies and 4.45 after 39 x $10 tournies. Now I consider myself to be an above average a player and I'm also prepared to bow down and admit you'd kick my arse in long run in these tournies but to do another 30% better I think is unlikely. Just a gut feel, but I think somewhere between a 3.50 and 3.75 strike rate would be the best anyone could achieve...
good luck,
Darren (EalingDR on IRC for many years)...
Greg,
Guess I'm in the wrong limit. You say the play is not that terrible in the 20.00 and up?
In the 5 & 10 limit tourneys, the play is just God awful. Realy so bad it's worth the price just to watch these guys. Best laugh around.
I've only played 6. One each 3rd, 2nd, 1st.
(Of course when your KK is cracked by J8 it's not quite as funny.)
OK, but I really don't know what you mean by a 3.0 strike rate. I'm guessing you mean that your "average" finish is 3rd, where playing twice, once finishing 1st, and once finishing 5th, would be a 3.0 strike rate for those 2 events. I don't necessarily mean that, however, as finishing 4th 100 times in a row is obviously a lot worse than 50 x 3rd and 50 x 5th.
All I mean is, if I played only $50 (+$5) events, and played many of them, I would achieve an average profit of $45, or the same as if I had finished 3rd in each event. I say this because doubling your money is quite doable for a very good player in every other tourney situation in the real world.
Played another $50 event last night, only came in 2nd. That actually brings my average down, lol.
Tonight you'll find me at Foxwoods playing NL, not on Paradise.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I am not sure your assumptions are totally correct. I have played 583 1 Tables mostly 20 & 30 but a few 100 and 50's. I have cashed 196 times or 33.6%. My total buy in's $12,259 total winnings $13,190 for a net of $931 over a six month period. My placements have been 1st-75 2nd-72 3rd-49. I don't think it is possible to double your money playing these tourneys over the long term. My results may not be atypical. Maybe Fossilman can hit a higher win rate, but even if you place in 50% of the tourneys you play in I still don't think it is possible to double your investment.
But, if you place in 50%, you've at least doubled your investment, haven't you? I mean, you're paying 10% of the prize pool (+ vig) and getting paid 20% for third. That's (almost) doubling right there. ;-)
Seriously though, and I'll let you know after a while how I'm doing personally, I believe I can double my money (at least) in any tourney setting that is not almost totally dominated by luck. Although these 1-table things are done in less than an hour, it is probably the equivalent of 1.5 hours or more in a "real-world" game, and that is usually considered to be a lot of play. Yet, there are definitely satellite specialists who get double their money returns as a long-term average, and who follow the major tourney trail to do so. My personal record in satellites (at a guess) is at least double my money. However, maybe I'm recalling this through rose-colored glasses, as I haven't separated satellite results from tourney results, nor does my spreadsheet allow one to calculate ROI.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Keep me posted. I would like to know if you continue at a 50% success rate. I still believe that a 30% to 40% success rate, over time, would be about the best you could hope to achieve. These games are just too short for skill to overpower all the time. You will run into some bad runs, where all the skill in the world will not help.
I haven't been playing lately, but here are my stats:
Total tourneys: 82 Total buyins: $1589 Total prizes: $2005 Profit: $416 34/82 or 41% placing in the money 14/82 or 17% 1st place
I honestly felt like I didn't know what I was doing most of the time in these, but I was clearly better than the truly clueless.
He
terribble
Last time I played on the site I had like AQ raise 45 player call I see the flop 2qj i bet all in he calls turn T river 9 of course he got a straight on the river with K2 funny ..
And just now for a cople of minutes yeah I have KK raise 45 one player call flop 8j5 I bet 35 trying to get him with me turn 6 I bet 50 he calls ( it s just from the begining of the nO -limit ) RIVER : a 4 I going all in he call showing mee 77 blah
feeling bad ( I now i played it bad but what ) 2 hands like that in the two last tourneys (never more slow playing to the river) comments
Without knowing what the blinds were, I'd say you got rooked on the first hand, but the second was just a bad play. 4568 on board and you go all-in without at least a 7? You have to figure he's drawing for something if he just calls, and with four to a straight on board, he likely just made it. Play it safe and check-call on the river if he bets small, otherwise check-fold.
--Chris
I don't like to reply (substantively) to posts that are written so incomprehensibly. It is a disfavor to your readers to make us struggle to figure out what you're saying. You're allowed to post like this, but it's impolite, IMO. Even if I'm wrong (or in the minority), it's sure to elicit fewer replies than if written out in full sentences with full details.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg, I think that English is not his primary language and he probably did the best he could. I do not think he was meaning to be impolite. True, he will get fewer responses because of his difficulty, but I think it is ok if he posts.
We have the option or reading and replying or not. Personally, I had difficulty following it and was not inclined to figure it out. But I would not chastise him for it.
I don't like to reply (substantively) to posts that are written so incomprehensibly. It is a disfavor to your readers to make us struggle to figure out what you're saying. You're allowed to post like this, but it's impolite, IMO. Even if I'm wrong (or in the minority), it's sure to elicit fewer replies than if written out in full sentences with full details.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Tierd of everybody complaing about language and things.
And yeah, It was in the beginig of the no-limit in Pokerpages tournamnet i write it but maybe I should have writen some blinds ( Is it so importent to write down it. I meen and hope I not the only one how not remember all cards and blinds :)
Some stars in Poker is good ....and they how s not a star belive they are I meen ....If you have won WSOP 1 time dont meen you are a good poker player ( you only a rich one:).
One more thing some here thing they king ...they doing the Math and they yeah, doing....things smart people do.
Some people think they now
Like this post I read one guy had won 500 in 3/6 PP and then some one says in how many hour he says in 50 hour. And then some start complaing about it is impossible and saying things.....you see what i meen
think this should bee a more friendly page...and the younger beginners in Poker should have some to look up to...some star...and I am shore beginners is affraid of posting here.
comments please ??
sorry for the English
Sorry if I came across harshly. I am not complaining about typos or misspellings due to English not being somebody's primary language. I am talking about writing out posts that are incomplete with respect to the facts, full of lots of shorthand or abbreviations not commonly understood, and composed of many incomplete or run-on sentences.
Whatever your primary language may be, I suspect that separate thoughts and/or actions are separated by periods. I suspect that if writing a memo to your boss or your customer you use full and complete sentences. If doing this in English is difficult, then I am sorry but you will find that you receive less feedback to your posts. The reason I responded as I did was that after reading your original post, it didn't seem as if English were a second language for you, but that you had written your post as if it were a chatbox, where speed is more important than accuracy or clarity (to most). If I offended, I apologize. However, I hope that others, for whom English is a first language, will read this thread and decide to try harder.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Yeah ofcourse I do my best but I really slow( slow brain )on writing and reading
And I m not angry on you :)
I saw that you whant to play in mulit-table tourneys why not try www.Pokerspot.com They have a free one 2 pm Limit Holdem
They have tourneys everday :)
And soon they have tournies again with (15$ore30$)buy -in
Have a nice day
Thank you for your suggestion. However, I've heard Pokerspot isn't paying anybody anymore, so I sure don't want to pay money to them. Hard to make a profit if you're guaranteed you won't get paid even when you win.
;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Yeah but you can just play for fun ....this with they not playing any one the casher is broke ...
And I am sure that Pokerpages not should have a partner chip :) with them if they not serious,,,,
But I enjoy the tournamnets free ones ( good pratice)
But I either don t whant to cash in.
Im thinking of playing in this event next year. My question is this. How many tourny chips do you get when you buy in the 300 500 1000 limit and no-limit hold'em tournies?
I forget the exact numbers, and even I hadn't, what matters is the ratio of starting chips to starting limits, not the absolute number of starting chips.
What I do recall is that these tourneys were structured pretty quickly, and even a very large field was whittled down to a winner in less than 12 hours. I would say that half the field went away within 3 hours or so. Basically, I considered my weekend at the Taj to be the worst tournament trip I had ever taken, with respect to the tourneys themselves. There was lots of great action at very high limits in the side games, but you didn't get much in way of comps, cheap rooms, etc., compared to Vegas events. Here at Foxwoods, you also don't get much in terms of extras, but at least you get lots of play in the tourneys and satellites.
In fact, the worst part of the Taj was the satellites. Total crapshoots with very little skill coming into play. You'd be playing for $500 or $1000 and the 10-person field would produce a winner in about 40-50 minutes, maybe 60 on occasion. There was no room to play a hand out, or get away from a big overpair if someone outflopped you, etc. One mishap was all you got, and you were broke on it, everytime. I only played in one, and that because a bunch of friends were in it and looking for one more sucker so they could get started.
I won't be going back unless it's for the main event only. I heard that they gave you decent play in that one.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
AS I recall, the amount of starting chips was equal to the buy-in. For 500 tourney, you got 500 in chips. So you had to get off to a quick start or leave quick
I have been led to believe that there is much more skill in hold'em tournies then stud tournies. Should i stay away from the stud ones?
Only tournaments to stay away from are the O8 ones:-)
There just aren't that many stud tournaments around but if you are an OK stud player why not play in them.
I am only playing Omaha Hi and HE but that is a personal decision I just don't like tha other games that much.
I don't play O8, but why stay away from them?
Total suck out game IMHO the only game where you can flop the nuts and be a dog to win.
Not for me.
I would say that the people telling you that don't understand stud. I prefer HE to stud, but my track record is probably better in stud (although the sample size is rather small). Well, it's probably best in NL HE, but limit HE seems to have more luck in it than limit stud.
In any event, stud has no defining moment that is analogous to the flop in HE. In HE, a lot of bad, wild players will play any or almost any 2 cards, hoping for a big flop. As such, it can often be VERY hard to put these players on a hand, meaning you often don't know when to push your top pair for more value, or when to back off and go into check-and-call mode, or when to fold. In stud, there seem to be very players who are so wild that they play practically any 3 starting cards. There are still overly loose players, but there is usually some sense to what they started with, meaning you can make some logical guesses as to their hands.
But, I've not given this issue all that much thought before, so maybe my present ramblings are mistaken.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
In my own experience, I started out playing Stud tournaments, and was able to hold my own fairly quickly. Now I am more experienced, though, I find my edge over the field is not very large.
By contrast in Hold-Em, I absolutely sucked for about 6 months, won nothing at all, then gradually came to terms with it and now my HE results are much better than my Stud results.
This could mean that there is more luck in Stud tournaments. It could mean that Hold-Em suits me better than Stud (a definite possibility given my laziness when it comes to remembering upcards). Or it could not be applicable at all because I'm talking about big-bet tournaments, not Limit as the original poster is referring to.
Who knows :-)
One thing is for sure (this is addressed to anyone, not necessarily the original poster who doesn't indicate his level of experience), if you are just starting out and you do believe that there is more luck in the Stud tournaments, then you should maybe play these to start with, to learn the tournament basics more cheaply, and then move on to Hold-Em later. Of course if you're just starting out then it's hard to judge the luck factor. Maybe you could ask an experienced player in your cardroom who you respect.
Andy.
I've been looking to play in some tournaments but have not been able to locate any in the Chicago area. The only ones that I know of are the "Rockford Gaming" tournaments. Any help would really be appreciated!
Thanks, Steve C.
That's it - an area with 7+ million people and no tournaments and 2 shitty card rooms. We deserve better.
I know there are tournaments in Iowa and Soaring Eagle has some good ones.
I am considering doing some tournament weekends at my resort in N/C Indiana 2 hours from Chicago but that depends on turn out.
Please keep me informed about your potential tournaments. Also, where is Soaring Eagle?
Thanks, Steve C.
About 4 hours away - 1 hr north of Lansing Mi.
I was discussing a major suckout that I performed on the weekend with a friend and he asked me a question. I hit a 9 on the river to allow my 99 to beat AA. In my situation I raised from cutoff to 2500. Blinds were 200-400, antes were 25 and there was one limper. The SB goes allin for 3625 and I make the obvious call of his re-raise. I had him covered by 5k.
Lets discuss a few scenarios assuming the SB had more chips. I have 10k with 99. I make the same raise to 2500 after one limper. There is 3750 in the pot after my raise and before the SB re-raise:
1) He has 20k and raises 8k. This seems like an obvious fold on my part.
2) He has 20k and raises 2.5K. This seems like a call on my part. It seems if he raises much more than 2k then I would need to fold.
3) He has 6k and raises 4K all-in. Since he is all-in, I think calling a 4k raise is probably okay.
Is my thinking correct on these re-raises. I understand the player makes a big difference buy lets assume a solid player and assume this is after the rebuy period but still in the middle stages of the tourney.
Ken Poklitar
You're doing all the right thinking. You have to weigh the pot odds you're getting from the call plus the implied odds (or reverse implied odds) against the likelihood that he has an overpair. You also have to consider how often, when you are ahead, you're slightly ahead of 2 overcards or way ahead of a baby pair. There have been times where I've called a pretty big raise (like your 8K example) because I knew my player would make that raise with AK, AQ, or ANY pair. In that spot, my 99 or TT is a reasonable favorite over the entire range of hands, and cannot be folded.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hey Greg,
Having played a couple of the 1 table tourneys at Paradise and doing well, in fact very well from what I read, would you have specific tips for us ? Maybe a couple of adjustments you have made from your general limit tournament strategy since the blinds get high so quickly?
I usually play very tight early, i.e. groups 1-2-3 (3-sometimes, basically high cards that can make top pair, rarely a draw. I believe the $ you lose are just too precious. I open up (and I mean major gear shift)when down to 5-6 players depending on the mix of the players. I hope by then my stack will be T700 or higher so I still have sufficient ammo to go to war with.
How about you?
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I still try to play the players as best I can. One of the first things I do is see who will fold before the river. Those are the people, if anybody, who I will try to bluff later, or steal from with a marginal stealing hand. They are also the people who are more likely to be there near the end. ;-)
I also try to figure out the range of hands each person will play. It is surprising how poorly most players, even the one playing pretty solidly, adjust to the game going from 10 to 8 to short-handed. I have been able to steal a lot when I am coming in first with a raise when we are 6 or 5 or 4 handed, and I have a reasonable hand like KTs, A4o, etc. But, like you, I was playing pretty tight early on when we were 10-handed, and more likely than not the only hands they saw me showdown were pretty big. If you can steal slightly more than once per orbit when it gets down to half the field, that's all it takes to come in 2nd or 1st.
I wish I had more generic advice. It really comes down to the same thing as in live action. Do your best to analyze each situation independently, and always consider every course of action. I actually think about reraising when I have hands like J9s, even though I (almost) never do so. Once in a while you will find yourself in a spot where it is the right move, and you'll be prepared to do it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
playing omaha tournament it looks like i made a full house or a flush but it shows only a pair or others. does this only happen to me?
Mmmmhhh,
Hard to say without any details... Please explain more clearly what you mean.
Did you know that in Omaha you absolutely have to use 2 of your hole cards, not more, not less? (This may sound stupid if you already knew that)
Anyway if this isn't it then please elaborate...
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
hello nicolas{the prince i did not know i must use two cards now i understand thanks jake
Thanks to Ken Poklitar, Greg Raymer, Rounder, Nicholas Fradet, Tommy Angelo, Andy Ward, David Sklansky, Mason Malmuth and all the others who post here on the tournament and high limit forums. All your posts and the books HPFAP, TOP and Mason’s two Essay books have made a huge contribution to my learning.
I have never played no-limit before. I have played only three times in small daily limit tournaments in my life. Basically I am a 64 year old man who started playing LLHE at the casinos about a year and a half ago.
I started playing in the pokerpages WSOP warm-up and have made it to round 2 four times. I finished first in a round 1 tournament tonight. I know the warm-up has a lot of not so good players and it is not like a live tournament, but I am stoked and having fun. Now I want to place in round 2. It is time.
I know this experience has improved my LLHE play, even though they are entirely different games. Especially in the patience department.
I don’t post here a lot because I don’t feel I have the absolute knowledge and experience to give advice on tournaments and NLHE. One day though…
Thanks again to all of you.
Alden Chase (tyro)
As you may be aware I quit the online madness including the PokerPages tournaments.
I just couldn't take the BS and it really isn't fun for me. But I hope you have success and win the WSOP seat. And I hope they actually award the prize.
Cheers,
Tyro:
Reading this forum and posting comments on posted hands is how I got it all on the right track. Keep posting here.
I hope you get to round 3. Good luck.
Although you may not think you can respond to others questions , (heck, who can do a better job than Rounder, Fossilman or Andy...) I've found that my game and my understanding of it got a lot better when I started replying to some posts. You make up your own mind and think about it a lot more than when you only read other's replies. Plus, the more the merrier! The more players post here, the better we all get.
Anyway, good luck,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Except for the bit about who could do a better job than me :-)
Good luck Alden.
I don't think any of us have the absolute knowledege. I certainly don't.
Keep on posting hands and don't be afraid to respond to posts. I post hands where I think I make mistakes ( if I win or lose). Reading the responses and trying not to make the same mistake twice is the key for me.
Ken Poklitar
Thanks Ken,
I have posted hands. I have not yet given advice on tournament hands. I will. If nothing else it will continue and encourage discussion.
Finally got to stop suffering from withdrawal, as I was able to play the Tuesday night NL HE tourney at FW last night. Good field of 69, lots of loose play, prize pool over $6,000.
I don't win a hand until the 4th level, when I manage to double up with AQ vs. QJ (not all-in preflop, he called my raise preflop, and my bets on flop and turn). However, I don't manage to do much for a while, and am down as low as T700 during the T100/200 blinds with T20 ante. I suck out once when attacking the blinds from the button with QT and getting called by the SB with ? (but he was really pissed when the T hit the river).
I finally get a good-sized stack on this hand. I'm the big blind at a table of 8 players, 16 players left in tourney (9 paid). I'm the big blind of T400, SB is T200, antes are T25. UTG limps in. Normally, this would be a huge warning sign. However, this is the 3rd consecutive time this guy limped in UTG, and he has not had a hand that stood any action yet. Second to act goes all-in for T925. One fold, and a solid player thinks for a while, and then goes all-in for T2600. All fold to me, and I have about T3000 and 99 in the pocket. What do you do?
In case the first sentence didn't give it away, I called as I was almost 100% sure that the solid player did NOT have an overpair, and the raiser was getting so close to being blinded out, he did not have to have any kind of real hand. UTG folded what he later said was A9o, raiser had AT, and solid had AK. Highest card on the board was an 8, and I'm chip leader at my table.
Later I avoid going broke with ATs. I raise UTG when we are 5-handed, other table is 6-handed, and we'll form a final table 10-handed (only 9 get paid, but there is almost always a deal for the 10th place player that is almost as much as 9th place). I raise UTG to T1800 (blinds are up to 300/600 with 50 ante). All fold to the big blind, a very solid and typically tight player. He knows the math, and doesn't take risks unless he knows his player can fold, and he knows that about me. He was moved to our table a few hands ago, and has more chips (about T10,000 to my T8,000). He thinks for a bit, and then raises all-in. For him, this looks like a bet he doesn't want called. Finally, I lay it down and he shows AA. I folded because I thought he could easily have a hand like JJ and also not want a call. I never put him on AA, as I would expect him to do a smaller raise with that hand.
Final table, 6-handed. I'm the big blind, still at 300/600. UTG raises to T1800. He's a pretty good player, and is almost certainly not holding anything below 66 or AT. Couple of folds, and the short-stack goes all-in for T2200. Fold, then I look down to find AA. What do you do? I raised to T4000, leaving me with about T6000, and UTG with about T4000 if he calls. He did call. Flop was A87, I checked, he bet immediately, I called even quicker, and tabled my hand. 8 on the turn, aces full is good. Chip leader 4-handed.
Unfortunately, I don't pick up anything after this, and am getting bled away. Occasionally I'm finding a bad A or a good K, but it's always raised in front of me by a player whom I don't expect to fold if I reraise. We break a player, and we're 3-handed, with me holding almost exactly 1/3 of the chips.
I'm the button with AdKd, blinds are 400/800 with 75 ante. I raise to T2200, leaving me with T16,600. SB calls, and has me outchipped by about T5,000. BB folds. I hate this call, not because I wanted a fold, I mean it's just a bad play. There really isn't anything you can call with here 3-handed. This is generally fold or raise territory, IMO. Anyway, the flop is Tc9cTs, and he quickly bets out T5,000. This player is pretty weak, but is aggressive, so that's why he does well in these NL tournaments from time to time. He has been known to do anything, bluff, semi-bluff value bet when he should trap, call with very weak hands, and many other things good and bad. What do you do?
I should have folded. I put him on a 9 or a flush draw, and thought he would lay them down to a raise. I raised, and he won with KTo. 3rd place, but it shouldn't have happened that way. I should have saved my T16,600, and still been a favorite to win the whole thing. I simply misread the guy, and figured he wouldn't overbet the pot with 3 tens. I was wrong.
See you next Tuesday.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Good Post Greg!
I was first surprised of your call with the 99 hand. I'm pretty sure I would have layed them down. I understand the call of the first all-in raise but the second one? I was not there to get a read but even if you are sure he does not have an overpair then you must think that there will be at least 2 possibly 3 (maybe 4) overcards againt you. Of course, some of them could be duplicated but still, I'm wondering...
After thinking about it tho, I see that you are really risking 925 on the 2-3 overcards here. Since you did not feel that the solid player(the one who can really hurt your stack) had an overpair, you are an slight favourite against him for the majority of your stack so maybe I do get it.
This is it right?
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
What I'd really like to know Greg, is would you have called if the FIRST all-in raiser had you covered ?
If the SECOND player had you covered, I'm guessing that in the same situation, early T925 raise and then the solid player raises all-in, say T6000, you would have called since you had a +EV situation (99 vs overs).
Comments?
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Basically, you've got it. Even if the first all-in catches his overcard to beat me in the main pot, the side pot was big enough that I still came out ahead. I only lose out here if I lose to the big stack. And, since I was sure he didn't have an overpair, and I thought that both of them had A-big, I felt that I was at least 40% likely to win the whole thing. To put that more clearly, I felt that I was up against at least one A-big, and that the other player either had A-big or a pair lower than 99. Don't ask me why, it was just the way they thought it out and looked at their cards before making their decisions. It made me confident that neither of them was making a move (with something really marginal like JTs), nor did either of them have a big pair.
Given that read, a call is in order, IMO. If my read had been wrong, or if the second all-in had caught his A or K, I'd have looked like a moron instead of a genius.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
but just don't show them you hole cards...
No harm done to your image... :-)
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
just muck them and say 8-4 offsuit...NO GOOD!
Two hands I'd like to put my two cents in on ...
Like Nic, I think I would have passed the 9s. It may be a marginal +EV situation, but you're putting in all your stack three-handed (albeit that you are heads-up for a decent slice of it) even if UTG folds. If you think there is a decent possibility that either player holds a 9 or lower that makes it better but I just think you could make better use of your chips as a raiser at this stage of the tournament.
Holding Aces when a shortish stack goes all-in in front of you and there are players still to act - I am toying with the idea of flat calling in this situation the next time this comes up in my games. So often I see the third player try to re-raise the caller out with just an Ace or similar. You might trap an aggressive player like this. On the other hand there is nothing wrong with raising to get heads-up and protect your stack, it's just an alternative.
Andy.
I assume you're talking about my hand that made aces full and busted 2 guys. The first raiser was to my immediate left, and the all-in was behind him. When it was my turn to act preflop, there was nobody else left to act, and the all-in was such a small raise that it did not allow the original raiser to raise again. That is, the original raise was 1800, and all-in was 2250. In my room, the original raiser is not allowed to reraise the all-in, because less than a full raise does not reopen the betting.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Yep - it's not fair, I've had a long day at work when you guys are all bright-eyed first thing in the morning :-).
In the general case, do you think there is some merit in a flat call when there are players behind you who might be tempted into a re-raise ? If so, would you make the play with KK as well ?
Andy.
Well, certainly there is merit. However, I'd have to be pretty certain that they're going to raise, or I won't do it. About the only time I fail to raise preflop with AA is when just calling the other guy's raise takes a big chunk (25-50%) of either my chips or his, I think he'll bet the flop very often, yet I think he won't call a reraise preflop. Those situations don't come along very often.
I don't play KK much different than AA preflop in most spots. If the money is deep, I'm less willing to trap with it, because sometimes I've bet/raised the flop, gotten called by Ax on a draw, and then seen the A fall on the turn. If I had reraised preflop and bet/raised the flop, they'd give me credit for the overpair and muck. Basically, I want to ensure that more money goes in early with KK, and I'm more willing to risk setting a trap with AA.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
It seems like a gutsy call with your 99. Not only do you have an UTG limper but the solid player would scare me. Now with your read of him and the UTG player I can understand your call. If you win the hand like you did, you win a huge pot.
On the final hand with only 2 overcards and no backdoor draws I probably fold.
Oh well, 3rd sounds like a good payday considering you were on the ropes early. Sounds like a good tourney as usual. I might be making another trip to the East Coast in the next month or so. Hopefully I will get to visit Foxwoods.
Ken Poklitar
This is a hand that my father played in yesterday's tournament. He's very new to hold em and especially no limit so I usually sit with him as some what of a consultant, although I'm hardly an authority.
Anyways, the hand. He has about 1050 at the 25 50 blind level. He's in the small blind with K9 of diamonds. There are three callers to him. I know that this is a hand that you can get into trouble with, so my biggest question is do you call the 25 dollars before the flop? Anyways, he called, which I thought was right with 3 callers. The flop with J high with two diamonds. All players in the hand had a decent amount of chips except the small blind that had about 350. My dad checks, would betting be preferable? I thought that it was unlikely that he would win the hand outright and if called by a big stack would have to catch on the turn. Anyways, the big blind bets out 100 bucks. All call. I think this is an obvious call but would anyone raise here? The turn come a low blank, no diamond. My dad checks and the big blind goes all in for about 200. Everyone folds to you. If you call, you have a little under 800. What should you do?
My dad called which I thought was the right decision and he didn't catch a diamond and lost the hand.
Any responses would be appreciated.
Peace Goodie
From what I understand there is 950 in the pot. So he is getting 3.75 to 1 on the call. He has no implied odds. If he thinks that hitting the K is good then he has 9+3 outs so 12 outs making him around a 3:1 dog. So mathematically, a call could be right.
That said, given the fact that there is no read available, that this is Pokerpages Circus warmup, then I think he sould call. The only real hand you don't want to see is AdXd. I've seen so many strange plays in these tourneys that the SB could have anything (you did not say if he was solid or a bozo). Heck! maybe a K high is in the lead, you never know. T800 left is plenty when the blinds are at 25-50.
The check/call on the flop and river is fine. You don't to go to war with this hand if the bigger stacks show action. Whatever the SB had he played it wrong on the flop. He should have gone all-in.
IMO,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I would call the initial 25.
I might lead the betting on the flop and bet 100. The only problem I can see with check/calling is if it gets checked to the final player that player may try to steal the pot with a larger than normal bet that you might not want to call. In his case, I wouldn't re-raise.
With 800 in the pot I would make the turn call. He hopes the BB doesn't have nut diamonds. He most likely does have the kings as outs as well.
Ken Poklitar
I play a little differently. I will not chase drawing hands. The odds the pot is laying me makes no difference. The odds are about 4:1 or after the flop that you will lose a big part of your stack. Why do I say 4:1 when it is 2:1 to hit your flush on the last two cards?
The problem is that the odds are 4:1 against you to hit the flush on the turn. Now if you don't hit on the turn you are stuck. If you bet, you are laying odds for that round. A poor option. If you get raised, then what? If you check, and a big bet comes, then what?
At best, with the king, it is a good semi-bluff hand after the flop. But you would have to go all in at that point. The small blind is a good position for an all in bet. You put a big decision on the other players. Now the odds will be truly less than 2:1 against you. Maybe 1.5:1 and that is if the king holds up if that is your hit. Of course, you are hoping the others will fold to your all in bet.
I want the odds to be more in my favor. I would have called the 25 to complete the small blind, but if I don't flop something I am gone. There are circumctances where I would go all in. In fact that may have been the best play at this point. But I would not chase with small bets and calls.
"Drawing hands are death"
The problem with your reasoning is that there was only one bet that was all in for only an eighth of your stack and you would end the action on the hand. There was no fear of a big bet. Normally I don't play too many drawing hands in tourney's but this seems clear to be situation where a call was warranted.
Peace Goodie
If you think an all-in bet would end the action, that is the perfect time to do it. You only want to prolong action when you have the absolute nuts or are sure you have the other hand(s) beaten.
Killing action with a big or all in bet is the idea. If you make it easy for others to stay in, they can draw out also and beat you. For example, you could hit your king and some one else who has a medium pair (one in their hand and one on the board) could catch their second card for two pair and beat you. It is better to win a smaller pot now than lose a bigger pot later.
The all in bet would depend on your reading of your opponents, chip counts, stage of the tournament, your chip position and other factors. I am just saying to check-fold or to go all in are the only viable answers for me. The idea is to shut the other opponents out so you can take the pot now.
In limit poker, you would stay to the end. In no-limit, to repeat, “drawing hands are death”. I don’t play any drawing hands after the flop in a no-limit tournament. They too often give the results your father had. A loss of chips you could put to better use later.
My biggest no-limit improvement came when I learned to throw away hands that are good hands in limit games.
Continue to respond to this until we flatten it, either for you or for me.
I agree with you but the hand in question didn't play like a no-limit hand. It played more like a limit hand because the bettor was covered by my father by more than 4 times. He bet on the flop, there were four callers (giving my father odds) so my father called. On the turn my father checked, he bet all in, all others folded and it was up to my father. My father would end the betting because there was nobody else in the hand and the bettor was all in. I believe that the call was right because of the odds my father was getting and because my father would still have plenty of chips left. If the big blind had went all in on the turn then another player had gone all in for about 500, it would have been an easy fold with one card to come. Same on the flop.
I also believe that drawing hands are usually death in tournaments but there are instances in which a drawing hand should be played to the river. And I think this was one of those instances. Peace Goodie
With everyone folding to your father on the turn, the call is probably ok. The point is, I would not be there for the turn unless I made a huge bet or went all in. Drawing hands bleed chips. Just my experience. The warm-up is a good place to experiment with this. Good Luck, I will look for you.
"Drawing hands are death"
In general I do agree with this for No Limit.
Early in a tourney I will limp in with Axs or some type of connected hand where I don't feel the hand will be raised. You can flop or turn a monster and double your stack for a cheap price. The key is not chasing the draw for too much of your stack.
As the blinds get bigger compared to my stack I rarely will limp with these types of hands. If I decide to play Axs I will probably do it for a raise hoping to steal the blinds or get it headsup.
Ken Poklitar
Somewhere along the line I remember reading a line in NL HE play about drawing hands. If you do not have anything make yet you should normally not draw to anything that is not the nut. The author would rather draw to a gut short sraight flush with not so good current pot odd than the second best straight or flush. The reasoning is what happen if you make it. Someone else move all the chips in and what are you going to do? Are you taking the chance to go out of the tournament with the second best straight or flush. Usually I want to leave the tournament with a hand that is make and someone else draw out on me after all my chips is in the pot.
? Any dealers out there that have dealt the tournament in Mississippi, or plan to? Also any info on dealer employment in Tunica Miss. area would be appreciated. Thanks
From what I've heard it's a pretty cool area to work as long as you don't work for the Ho***shoe. I hear they treat their employees like shit. I've heard that they pay $4.25/hr and work you full time hours and tell you that you are considered part time and won't give you benefits. (unless your kissing the right persons ass) Also I heard that their big tournament is a joke. I have a couple of friends that worked there for the last one and ended up walking out after a couple of days. No $ and a lot of asshole players who they let run all over you. Hell they couldn't even make enough $ for their hotel room in an 8 hr shift. Doesn't sound like much fun to me. Just my 2 cents worth........
Phyllis, thank you very much for your response. Considering I was told by the Gold Strike that I might stay on after at the Shoe it gives pause for consideration. That is too bad that they can get away with that. Are you dealing somewhere right now? Thanks again and take care, Marty
A few observations about one table HE tournaments on PP:-
1. On the average it takes about 80 hands to complete. 65 hands are fast and the longest I have seen is 96 hands. In a live tournament it is about 40 hands an hour. So the online tournament is equivalent to a 2 hours live tournament.
2. They start with 800 chips each and a total of 8000 chips in play. Each level has 10 hands. The seventh level limit is 600/1200 and the 8th level is 1000/2000
3. The luck factor is very large for each tournament. For most tournaments, unless you have a lot of chips (>4000) you are not sure to make it to the last 3 paying positions. I have play in about 8 today and watch the last 3 levels of 3 other games. In most cases when it gets down to about 4 to 5 players everyone is still at risk of not in the money. Once you get to the 7th level, Chip position changes almost every hand.
4. If you play in many of these tournaments the luck factor probably evens out and skill will determine your result heavily.
5. At the low limits $10 to $30 buy in about 2 to 4 players are weak. Not too many strong players. At the $100 buy in there are very few weak players and some very strong players.
6. Base on my observation the best player probably can only hope to get in the money about 50% of the time and the average profit of 50% of your buy in. A more realistic result for an excellent player is to get in the money about 40% of the time and an average profit of 30% of the buy in.
Even the best player will find it hard to achieve a 50% success rate, over time, in these tourneys. The luck factor is just too great. I agree that 30% to 40% is a more realistic expectation.
I'm not sure what you mean by success rate. If you mean percent of time in the money, then 30% is merely average. 10 monkeys hitting their keyboards against each other will each achieve 30%.
I am sure that a top player can average being in the money at least 50% of the time, maybe better. I believe that a top player can achieve at least a 50% return on investment (ROI), and possibly 100% or higher.
I say this because as Peter pointed out, these satellites are about as long as those you play at many major tourneys, and I know from personal experience and experiences related to me by other players whom I trust that these success rates (win % and ROI) are achievable in the real world. If these rates are not achievable online, then I would say it is due to the greater difficulty of "reading" your opposition online, not because the opposition is tougher.
We'll see if my satellite record holds-up, both long-term on Paradise, and at the WSOP next month.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
... think it's possible !
If you are in the money about half the time you will earn about $5 pr tourney - but I don't think that is possible in the long run !?
Let us know how you are doing and better yet have you do it ! Good luck !
I've been playing 230 tourneys ($10): #1:36 #2:20 #3:28
Total: $430
Wins pr tourney: $430/230= $1.87
BTW isn't COOL to win a tourney ? It really makes my day ! How about you ?
No offense from me either, but, $2 an hour ? Wouldn't you be better off flipping burgers while thinking about your game ?
Andy.
hey, i don't even think that I make $2 playing these tournaments. I am doing it to gain exposure to tournament play and to work on the strategies for tournaments. Not everyone is a good tournament player, I for one am not, but I also have very little experience so I hope to improve.
If you're in the black then your record is better than mine on Paradise. I lost about $100 and decided that my time could be better spent doing something else. I think my real point is that once you get to 200 of these tournaments I would really doubt whether you can learn much more from that format. I do believe that Internet poker, especially at the cheap end, can only take you so far with respect to learning, and if you overdo it you can develop bad habits which will cost you a lot to unlearn in real life play.
Andy.
Yah, I would agree. Developing any strategy based on one methodology could be harmful. To be honest, I don't have a clue about tournament strategy. No Limit, Limit, you name it, I'm not very good at it.
I am a winning ring game player (although I am not too experienced at these yet either (less than 1000 hrs), but I am young and I'm learning, and I think I play well). As far as tournies go, I dont understand the intricacies of the different situations, but I don't play in many either. I do understand the various differences about the stack sizes, but I don't think I play a big stack or a small stack very well.
For example. Yesterday I played a $10 tourney on PP (these are the only limit tournies I play online) and with 5 people left I had over half the chips on the table (4200 out of 8000 possible I think). I decided to punish the small stacks when they were in the blinds by raising many hands. I raised with 64s, K3o, J8o, etc., and I increased my stack through this strategy to about 5000. (Actually I got called with the 64s, flopped a gutshot with back door flush and the guy bet his last 80 into a 1300 pot, so I called and made a back door flush). I lost a bit during this period too, but when we got head's up I had about 6500 to his 1500 and it was no contest. He put it all in with QT vs. my AJ and I flopped an Ace.
Anyways, I don't play many tournies, online or in real life, so I don't know much about them. I want to get better, and realize there are differences, and this is why I am playing PP tournies. Not to make money. I also play them because I enjoy them and think they are fun. As long as I break even in the long run with these I will be happy. Currently I am in the black with these tournies.
Here is the final hand I play last night:-
Seat 2: PlayerA (755 in chips) Seat 3: PlayerB (4,210 in chips) Seat 5: PlayerC (905 in chips) Seat 7: XXX (680 in chips) Seat 10: YYY (1,450 in chips) PlayerC: Post Small Blind (100) XXX: Post Big Blind (200) Dealing... Dealt to PlayerA [ Jd ] Dealt to PlayerA [ Js ] YYY : Fold PlayerA: Raise (400) PlayerB : Raise (600) PlayerC: Call (500) XXX: Timed out XXX: Force All-in PlayerA: Call (200) *** FLOP *** : [ 4d 6c 4c ] PlayerC: Check PlayerA: Bet All-in (155) PlayerB : Call (155) PlayerC: Call (155) *** TURN *** : [ 4d 6c 4c ] [ 8s ] PlayerC: Check PlayerB : Check *** RIVER *** : [ 4d 6c 4c 8s ] [ Kh ] PlayerC: Check PlayerB : Bet (400) PlayerC: Call All-in (150) *** SUMMARY *** Pot: 800 | Side pot 1: 1,665 | Side pot 2: 300 | Board: [ 4d 6c 4c 8s Kh ] PlayerA lost 755 (showed hand) [ Jd Js ] (two pair, jacks and fours) PlayerB bet 1,155, collected 3,015, net +1,860 (showed hand) [ Ks Ad ] (two pair, kings and fours) PlayerC lost 905 (showed hand) [ Tc Kc ] (two pair, kings and fours) XXX lost 200 (showed hand) [ 3d 8d ] (two pair, eights and fours) YYY didn't bet (folded)
If the K or A or a club (16 cards) did not come on the river PlayerA would have 2465 chips after this hand and most likely in the money. Some may say playerC should not call 3 bets and that is another subject.
My point is there are too many situations where you make it or not that is mostly luck. Again I am not complaining about the hand. I have won a fair share of my hands and in the long run it evens out.
Constructive criticism: please convert your hand histories into readable prose. nothing is more frustrating than trying to make sense out of a PP hist.
Many people, myself included, skip posts that are like yours.
when should you play aggresive in tournament? early on? all the time? play tight? play loose? tap only with pairs? big pairs? medium or even small pairs?
I can't remember ever seeing a "passive" player winning a tournament - you must be aggressive at some point of the tournament - but it is crazy to play the same way through out the event.
I suggest playing aggressive when the rest are passive and visa-versa. Always (or almost always) play aggressive in short handed situations specially the final table.
Please keep me informed about any developments regarding hosting a tourney in n/c Indiana. I am sure turnout (once the word got out) would be great. I used to frequent the tourneys at the Grand Vic. in southern Indiana and turnout for those was alway capacity! Why did they end? coporate casinos dumped the poker room 4 slots. I am very intersted and know a # of people who would be as well.
thanks P.s if you know of any poker get togethers around the Indianapolis area that would be intersting as well!
I have 2 good locations for poker in N/C indiana. About 90 miles fron 465 and 31 and 2 hours S/E of Chicago. Sleeping accomidations available.
I can set up tournament schedules any time.
for those interested email me at
guzaldo@yahoo.com
This has some reference to Greg's "FW NL HE, again" post below.
Regurg of WSOP hand: 7 players, $15-30K b's, $3K a's, CF UTG raise to 90K, TJ re-raise to 390K(250K left), JS button all-in for 650K, folded to CF re-raises his whole stack($1.6 mil), TJ fold JJ, CF AA, JS KK, CF wins, no J on board.
I ran the Probe numbers on this situation, and the Aces get almost all the Jacks' 'equity' when the Jacks fold. I wrote to Andy Glazer afterwards saying that, considering the circumstances, not only was CF right to push his whole stack in(repr'tng aces; as opposed to just smoothcalling, hoping to bust TJ as JS' bet had TJ covered), but he should've ann'cd, "I have aces", when he did it.
IMO the pot was so big, $1.79 mil, that you want every scrap of ev you can get. I think this is similar to the end of a smaller tourney where the blinds are huge compared to the total chips in play.
And I also generally think that when the action goes raise, re-raise, to you with AA; that pushing all in is the best play. IMO you don't wanna get too cute w/AA (or even KK).
Comments?
I always want to get it heads up in this situation.
TJ made a fine laydown and Chris cut down the outs against him by 50%.
Here are the numbers.
If TJ folds, as he did, CF wins 82% and JS wins 18%. The pot is 1.76M, and CF has an equity of 1.44M.
If TJ calls, CF wins 66%, JS 18%, and TJ 16%. The pot is 2.01M, and CF wins 1.32M.
So, by getting TJ out, Chris' equity in terms of chips does go up by about 120,000. However, this also lets TJ survive, albeit with a crippled stack.
Obviously, Chris wanted TJ out, as there was no other point to raising other than to announce, in an ethical manner, that the had AA. For Chris to actually say "I have AA" would be unethical, and Chris is not the type of guy to do that, IME.
Should he want TJ out? I think this is pretty marginal, actually. If Chris loses this pot, he still has about 1M left, a very good stack. If Chris loses, he still is one opponent down (if JS wins, TJ is out, if TJ wins, JS is down to 10K, and almost out). If Chris wins, he gets that extra 250K from TJ, AND he is down to 5 players. However, that extra 250K isn't that big of a deal when you consider how big his stack is going to be anyway, and he still should be able to push people around the next day either way. Wanting TJ to fold is probably correct, but in a tourney it is always worth some chip EV to increase your chances of eliminating an opponent, and therefore the risk of TJ winning if Chris doesn't "announce" AA might be worth it here. Chris is probably correct, but it isn't a clear-cut decision, IMO.
Actually, as I think about it more, how can Chris know that TJ only has 2 outs? If TJ has a hand like medium suited connectors, he can get quite a bit more equity here, and then Chris clearly wants him out.
Oh well, truth is TJ would have folded whether Chris "raised" or not, since he would have realized that it was the same thing either way, and he would have known that Chris has to have AA to even call for half a million more after being reraised twice.
I am surprised by the size of TJ's reraise also. By going to 390K, he has put in over 60% of this stack, and anybody who might play with him would know that they are facing somebody committed to the hand. Since he obviously was able to get away from the hand, and since a raise to something like 290K would have been just as effective as 390, TJ should have raised less, and thereby saved more from this hand.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Yeah but Jeff was getting out of line, maybe TJ thought he could get heads up with him and lose Chris by overbetting the J's.
I am suprised TJ fell for the tiny raise Chris put in but since I didn't see all the action prior it is hard to criticize anyone on this hand.
I began playing weekly Holdem tourneys about 2 years ago. I would play almost any Ax aggressively - going all in often times pre-flop in these unlimited rebuy tourneys. I saw others doing this too and even when Ax was against AX it sometimes still won when 'x' came.
Since then, after reading so much here about what a sucker hand Ax is, I've wised up and completely abandoned Ax in tourneys. Except when heads up etc. Problem is, I am not doing as well as I used to. Seems I got in the money more often making these naive plays than I do now.
Last night I patiently waited for good cards. When a women UTG raised the 200 blind to 600, I go all in (1600) with my pocket tens. The button calls without hesitation, UTG folds (66) and I lose to KK. As I got up from my chair I thought of all those Ax's I threw away, and how I would rather have had Ax than TT against the KK.
So I am still in the WGRPT tourney. I lose an AK hand on the river to an AT. My stack has shriveled from 85k to 31k. Blinds are 2000-4000. Antes are 1000. 14000 in the pot. I am on the button. Everyone folds to me. I have the ever powerful J7o. The SB has 34k. The BB has 38k.
I decide to do the Button raise all-in to steal the blinds and antes. Yesterday I get the email that the SB called. Today I get the email that the BB raised the SB in. I am sure I am dead.
Flop: AJ7, Turn: 7, River: 6.
I turn a full house :) SB had J8 and BB had AK.
You have to love No Limit. The poker gods are funny sometimes!
Ken Poklitar
SB called for 31K out of his 34K stack with J8? That takes some balls or something else...
This is a hand from last Tuesday's NL HE at FW. I forgot to mention it in my "trip report". Thinking about it since then, it was probably a mistake, albeit not a huge one.
My stack is at its lowest, about 390 (I think I forgot to mention that as well). Blinds are 50/100 with a 10 ante. Table is 9-handed. UTG (T700) limps in. He is a weak player, not tricky, and could have any somewhat reasonable hand, such as a bad A, medium K, medium Q, J8-JT, any pair 99 and below, and even small suited connectors such as 45s. He does not have a pair TT or higher, nor a good A or K, or he would have raised. This read is 95% reliable, IMO.
All fold to me on the button with QT. Not a great hand, but it is no more than slightly behind the range of hands held by UTG, and it is not a big dog to any of them with the possible exception of QJ. I certainly cannot afford to just call for 1/4 of my stack, so the only options are to fold or go all-in. If I go all-in, the blinds are going to fold anything but a very good hand, and the limper will fold probably about the bottom 1/4-1/2 of the hands described. Thus, I will win the pot of T340 at least 1/4 or so of the time, and I will be all-in with a big overlay and not a big dog the rest of the time (and occasionally all-in and ahead of something like Q9, JT, etc.).
Well, the big blind, who is also somewhat short-stacked (~550) goes all-in, and after some thought, the limper folds. A friend sitting nearby says to me "It's a good thing he protected you." My friend thought I had a real hand, not a calculated gamble. lol. Anyway, the board comes all small cards except for a K and a T. As the T hits the river, I turn over my hand. The big blind slams his cards in frustration, almost throwing them off the table. I figure I must have beat a pair like 99 or 88, or maybe even a 3-outer like AQ.
I never said I don't get lucky sometimes, did I?
Anyway, how much better than QT would your hand have to be before you'd have gone all-in on the button here? As an added fact, there is a good chance that you would never be the first one in the pot until you got pretty close to the button, since there were many 3-way pots at this table. There were 3-4 players who were pretty weak and limped in way too much, as if they were still over at the 2-4 or 3-6 limit tables.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
mmmhhh, considering all the hands you say he could have then I think I like the play, BUT I think it depends A LOT on likelihood of him folding to your raise.
I'm also guessing you had a good read that the blinds would fold. Doh!
QTs is probably just a small favorite against all the possible hands you said he could have (I'd say there would be a lot of 3:2 matchups here). I guess if you think there is a reasonnable chance he's gonna fold then it makes the play a good one. BTW, what would consider reasonnable, 25% ? (he'll fold 25% of the time ?)
It's these kind of plays that I should make more often, but darnit, this is expert stuff and I'm not always there...yet...
I agree that limping is out of the question.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
With the size of your stack it does appear you only have 5 or 6 hands until you hit the blinds. If you can't find a hand in that time the next time you hit the button you will certainly get called for any raise you make.
So with that said, I think you are at the point where any 2 face cards, any ace, any reasonable king and any pair calls for a raise all-in when you are first in the pot. So I think QT meets that criteria.
I don't like having an UTG limper but if you read him for weak then what you did is most likely correct. The fact that the table is having lots of limpers hurts the chance for a pure steal. You will more likely get one caller.
I wish I was lucky once in a while not including hitting a boat with J7o and hitting a 3rd nine on the river against AA :)
Ken Poklitar
I know this is a cliche response, but I wouldn't have gotten involved with that absolute rag unless I had been first-one-in.
I am being backed for $10000 WSOP main event.
I have won several tournies of between $100 and $500 entry fee.. but although Ive never been successful in bigger competions I have made finals.
Last year I sold 10% shares for $1000 no equity for me. In fact after the exchange rate and expenses I lost $1000 over my share.
Now the experience of playing this tournie and 10 days in Vegas for $1000 was definitely value for money.
But do you think it fair for me to charge a little more than $1000 for a 10% share. If so, how much more?
The people backing me are friends... so I dont want to exploit them... just make a fair deal.
Cheers,
Keith
Ask for a 10% freeroll. That way, you can either get backed 100% and play for 10% of what you win, or you can pay a part yoruself yet you can be sure that you won't hit by that exchange problem again. This is just a little bit more than nothing, so that you're getting some recognition for your time, as well.
If they think you're really good, ask for more (e.g., 20% freeroll, etc.).
BTW, when I say 10% freeroll, I mean they pay $1000 for a 9% share, meaning if somebody put up the entire $10K, they get 90%.
Later Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
For full tournament details see: http://www.worldheadsuppoker.com/
I am willing to finance someone in the tournament but would rather sell.
If you get to buy it for less than its worth you'll already have an advantage on your opponents before you even sit down.
Valued at $2300
Please email me with your best offer, even if its only small
narindermehmi@aol.com
This hand put out me out of a NLH tourney yesterday.
Down to last 4, I am the second of 2 equal blinds of 1000. I have 5600 after posting. Chip leader has about 75% of the chips, other players have approx 8000 each. Important point: payout is 1600 first, 960 second, 640 third and zero fourth.
UTG with 8000 chips raises 3000, I go all-in with AQo - he turns over JQs and hits runner runner flush to win.
I think that I played badly in the situation and I should just have called pre-flop and then have gone all-in no matter what the flop was. This play gives me a far better chance of surviving at the possible expense of 2600 chips.
Comments pleae.
DaveMcG: 'I think that I played badly in the situation and I should just have called pre-flop and then have gone all-in no matter what the flop was. This play gives me a far better chance of surviving at the possible expense of 2600 chips.'
I don't understand this !
Moving all-in pre-flop - that's the way to do it !
You did fine ! - IMO.
I agree with the original poster's analysis (ie that his action at the table was wrong).
He is last to act and there is no-one else to worry about. If he re-raises all-in, UTG has an easy call. If he waits for the flop and then bets, his opponent may fold. This basically improves your chances of winning the pot with the downside that it might be smaller when you win it. However, at this point you would rather win a smaller pot more of the time.
Andy.
I agree you should have called preflop. The point is to take down the pot.
You don't have enough ammo to put up any heat preflop. Unless you think there's a VERY good chance he would fold but I'd doubt it. He's getting 3.5 to 1 on the preflop call. You're in perfect position to make this play. (you act first)
If you indeed call and fire whatever comes, well, he might fold. If he does not, then it does not make any difference with going all-in preflop. But the times he does...
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I wouldn't call it a bad mistake, but your second thoughts are correct, IMO.
Don't forget that the flop you might not bet is one where you figure to be almost guaranteed to win. Then, you check and let him bluff or bet his second-best hand.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg:
you wrote:
"Don't forget that the flop you might not bet is one where you figure to be almost guaranteed to win. "
What do you mean?
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I mean, if he flops what figures to be the best hand, and figures to be uncatchable (statistically, not absolutely), he might prefer to check (trap) the flop, rather than bet out automatically. If you flop a full, you want the opponent to put his (your) last chips in, not fold. Anything else that is too vulnerable, you want to bet out and hope they fold.
As an aside, be sure you are "acting" properly when you make this play. I have seen it tried on me a couple of times where the player made it obvious before the flop was out that he was gonna bet it, so I knew that the flop hadn't necessarily hit him at all, which made calling his (relatively) small bet that much easier. What I mean is things like having all your chips in hand before seeing the flop, or betting so fast after the flop comes out that it is clear it hasn't even registered on you. Of course, if you bet out pretty quickly (but not too quickly), it isn't hard for your opponent to think all you did was see that A (or K, or whatever) on the flop, that one card, and bet, without taking time to appreciate, or even care, what else was out there.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks for the comments - the hard thing about tournament play is that I usually have to lose in a crucial situation to make any advances, but next time a similar situation comes up, here's hoping I'm not the one leaving the table without a payout.
All players started with T500, Limit Hold'em. Blinds are now 50/100 and it's 100/200 betting. You have T300. You're in the Big Blind with T100 posted and T200 left in your hand. It's folded around to the small blind who completes the bet. You look down and see K2o. You check. The flop comes K44. The small blind bets 100. What do you do?
Results later.
n/t
I'm not a very good tourney player, but i would raise all-in.
Raise all in or fold!
If you call, you are going all in anyway. The raise gives you a chance to win the pot outright.
Whether to raise or fold depends on how tight SB is, how many chips he/she has; why did SB just call? Is it weakness or an attempt to draw you all in?
Most of the time I would raise and hope SB folds.
You certainly have to call - you have almost no chips and are unlikely to get a better opportunity than this. I would call and call again on the turn or bet if he checks. If he has a 4 that's tough, but I think he would check a 4 - if he has a king you can hope for a split. Your best hope is that he has something like 55 or 66.
If he has nothing, he will fold if you reraise. If he has an underpair, he will still probably fold - so I don't think raising is a good option.
Remember, you have T200, the small bet is 100 to go, 200 to raise.
I don't believe a "call, and call again" even comes close to a raise in this situation (both plays will put you all in).
Even the slightest possibility that he'll drop warrants the raise. If he folds those small pair, great! I don't want him to get that chance to draw out. He may even throw away K-little, which would add the whole pot to your stack, not just half.
Ask yourself one question: Are you likely to find yourself in a better situation to play that last $100 with? Raise is an easy decision here...
Andy would probably say it if I don't, but:
A) clearly raise all in.
B) look at the hands _before_ this one. If you made a mistake it is probably there, not in this hand. Just because this hand is the one where you got knocked out or at least went all in doesn't mean it is the key hand at all. Chances are there was a hand you could have played for a raise before this one, that would give you a better chance of being in good chip position. That is, you may have had a chance to win the blinds uncontested one or more times earlier, which would help you in this and future hands. In this case you already have very little choice to make.
Well, I figured (as most of you did) that it was a raise or fold situation. I didn't have a clear read on the player in the small blind, as I'd just gotten moved to the table. So, I raised all in. He turned over 84 suited and rivered an 8, just so the poker gods could give me one last kick in the crotch before sending me to the rail. I guess I played it as well as I could, but I couldn't help but wonder: How in the world could he complete the bet with 84?? He wasn't a large stack by any means.
sick game, this hold'em. . .
DeadBart is right on (as well as emmett), IMO.
This is a definite raise all-in situation.
A call is a definite mistake here. Folding also (unless you have a very very good read). You are commited to the hand if you call, might as well raise, you'll probably get the other player to fold and the original bettor could fold also, hey! you never know. If you share your K, then hope that the board brings a kicker higher than your opponent's. Should he have a 4, then, Oh!well...
Like DeadBart said, unless you just lost a big pot a couple of hands ago, you probably should have pushed another hand earlier (like when you were UTG). You have to make a move soon enough to make sure you have plenty of ammo to pressure your opponents. When doubling up is still not enough to get you out of trouble then it's too late.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I would raise all-in. The SB should call your raise since you are all-in so I don't think it really is much worse to just call and bet the turn.
The only wrong play would be to fold the hand.
Ken Poklitar
Calling is out of the question--raise or fold. A call takes half your stack and its a weak play. The chances the small blind is tring to steal are very high. I might make the same play holding almost anything in that situation.
Will be at Foxwoods the first 3 or 4 days of the upcoming tournament 3/27, 3/28, 3/29 .e-mail edgeweyes@hotmail.com A COT AND A SHOWER AND I'M GONE FOR THE DAY.Male ,45 years old
Any regular posters going to be at the WPO in Tunica? I wouldn't mind trying my luck at the tables with a few of y'all and I'm sure some of the tourneys will have some good action.
I'm probably arriving late the 29th or early on the 30th and staying throughout. Let me know if anyone else will be there. By the way, nobody should enter the NL Hold'em on the 31st, I've already got that one in the bag.
Details are sketchy because my memory for details sucks and the hand history request has not been filled yet!
Warmup, 2nd round, noon on Sunday. My first 2nd round game so far.
I've survived some of the worst starting hands I've ever gotten during a Warmup tourney. Playing good, playing tight. Playing position is about the only thing keeping me alive. I get down to less than T150, pick a couple of good hands to go allin on, and make it to the last 3 tables with about T1250 or so.
Blinds now are 100/200, I believe. I get A8s and am 3rd to act on a full table. I decide to limp in. it's folded all the way around to the small blind, who limps, then the big blind raises it another odd amount, like 281 or something. I call, small blind folds.
Flop comes x-A-x. I check it to see where BB is, and he bets T750, putting me allin. He's got me covered completely..with a stack of around T4500 before his bet. I see this as a weak play, and that I'm ahead. I call. Turn is a Jack. River is another Ace. No straight to worry about, no flush to worry about, and I've got Trip Aces.
Looking for some feedback on my play. In hindsight, I feel maybe going allin preflop would have been my only alternative play.
Feel free to ask for extra details if needed; I can't guarantee I'll remember them though! I'll throw in the outcome of the hand after a while.
Thanks!
CHiP
You didn't say the result of the hand but I imagine your opponent flopped a set and won with a boat or had a better ace then you.
In early position with A8s and blinds at 100-200 and your stack being 1250, I probably muck your hand. If I decide to play it, I would not raise all-in. There are too many players to act after you. If I am in a late position then I would raise to steal the blinds.
The fact that you limp and now the BB does a small raise, you are almost forced to call the raise. Now you have paid over a third of your chips for A8s which is an okay hand but not great.
When the BB puts you all-in on the flop you need to decide if BB has a better ace or a lower pocket. Call if you don't think he has an ace. Fold if you think he has an ace.
Ken Poklitar
How did you check the flop before the BB? He has to go first, right?
Preflop is the thing. You're down to about 6x big blind. There is basically no hand that you can call with here outside the blinds. It is time to fold or raise. And if you choose raise, all-in is probably best. Just stealing the blinds increases your stack by 25%, so even if you get AA, raise, and they all fold, you've still made a big gain. As it is, how would you feel if the flop had come A37, and you got beat by the big blind's 73o, a hand that clearly would (well, should) have folded to your all-in raise preflop?
Once your stack gets low, there is little choice but fold-or-raise preflop. In fact, at the later stages of a tourney, where many people are short-stacked, it is usually best to raise-or-fold. Even if you're fortunate enough to have a big stack, you don't want to give a cheap flop to the blinds who will either fold to your raise or be all-in.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Good on you.. I didn't check it to him on the flop, the BB just put me all-in.
I agree mostly with the all-or-nothing approach at this point. My only justification for limping was that this table was playing extremely tight, where many times, you could limp and still see the flop. Also, if I didn't catch anything on the flop, and someone bet, I felt I could let my hand go and still have enough in chips to make a significant raise later on, even after the blinds (T700 if I bet nothing more during blinds). Many times, someone would raise the minimum, and everyone would fold to that raise. T'was tight!
I felt pretty good A8s, and when the BB raised it, I felt even better about it. Just a hunch, but I didn't put him on an Ace, because I felt he would have raised more had he had one. Seriously, I put him on KJ or something similar.. he was probably the loosest player at the table, playing any 2 painted, any position.
All in all, I didn't play a standard approach, more an adopted approach I had put together during that tourney. Different day, different table, I probably raise all-in preflop.
Check out the results, and you'll see why I still feel pretty good about my play, and feel I was just one care away from more than doubling up.
OK, so I call with my pair of Aces with my medium kicker, which I felt pretty good about, especially when the BB put me all-in before seeing where I was at. I felt had he not been afraid of the Ace, he would have either bet small again, or checked it to me. Player wasn't real tricky.
So the turn is a jack, river another ace.
Cards are turned up, he's got pocket Js. His boat wins.
Who was ahead on the flop?? Yup, me. I didn't read him correctly preflop, but read him like a book on the flop. The guy wanted to GIVE me those chips!! I guess maybe he figured I would have gone all-in preflop if I had an ace.
Now you can see why I still feel pretty good about the play, even preflop. Had I gone all-in, he definitely calls with his pocket Js, and I have no chance of knocking him off his hand.
If you were in his position, would you have played differently? I think I, personally, would have raised a lot more preflop than what he did. Why let someone with AK or AQ, or Ax even, come in cheap like that?
CHiP
"Now you can see why I still feel pretty good about the play, even preflop."
You should try not to be results oriented. Pre-flop he is a 2-1 favorite over your A8s. Sure based on the flop and the cards he had, the preflop call appears correct. What if instead the BB has AQo. Your preflop call and flop call doesn't look so good anymore.
That said, its too bad he hit his 2 outer and beat you.
Ken Poklitar
Yeah, by no means am I changing my strategy according to how that all worked out.
It was all based on playing with this guy for a while.. early on when there were about 8 tables left, we were seated together, and I saw how he bet then. We actually had a good rapport going, I even came back in and told him I wasn't surprised by the outcome, because he'd been catching like that, except normally on the river, all day. He knew he got lucky in catching that Jack on the turn and gave the ever-so-humble poker player's apologie "Sorry about that". I told him "Good hand, you had the best hand going in, good luck, play well with my chips!" At least he wasn't a jerk about it.
29th place in the 2nd round wasn't too bad a finish IMO. I'll hopefully return and do better. The end approaches quickly though..
Thanks for the comments!
CHiP
Played a NL tourney on Saturday. Three hands of interest:
1) 1st hand after the rebuy. Blinds are 100-200. I have 2725 before posting the BB. I get QJs. Only one limper (mid position) preflop.
Flop is Q98 (rainbow).
I bet 500. He raises another 1000. He has me covered. I ponder and try to decide what he might have. If he has a better Q he probably raises preflop. I decide to go all-in. I probably have the best hand but I also have JT as outs. He quickly calls and shows KQo. Turn is a K and the river is a beautiful T. I got lucky on the river and I am still not overly happy with my raise all-in.
2) Blinds are 200-400, antes 25. I have 10k. SB has 8k. I am in BB with A8s. All folded to the SB who only calls. The player in SB has my number today. He has twice raised in the same situation and stolen my BB. I probably should raise but I just check.
Flop is Q82.
SB checks. I bet 1000. SB check-raises another 1000. I folded but I seriously thought of going all-in. Clearly this player thought he could bully my blinds and I didn't show him that he couldn't.
3) Blinds are 300-600, antes 50. I have 6k (slightly below average stack). 16 players left. 10 get paid. I get AA in middle position. It is folded to me. I make it 2500 to go. Button who has 4.5k thinks and thinks and finally calls. Blinds fold.
Flop is J83 (rainbow).
I go all-in and he calls. He shows AKs. One of his suit on the flop. He hits runner, runner and wins with a flush. Oh well, win some and lose some. I will play it the same way everytime.
The only question with this hand is if you are my opponent do you fold, call or raise all-in pre-flop. I would tend to raise all-in here. When I go all-in on the flop is there anyway you fold AKs. There is 8k in the pot. Folding would leave him only 2k.
Any comments on the three hands are welcome,
Ken Poklitar
Hand 1: I agree that you misplayed this hand."If he has a better queen he probably raises preflop" - well i'm not sure i agree - in NL lots of people tend to limp with trouble hands such as AQ, KQ, & JT - all of which leave you in very bad shape. he may also have had a set of 8s or 9s (both limpers hands) or even 98s - in fact the only hand that he almost certainly would raise with that has you drawing thin is QQ.
basically, your call is one where you hope he's bluffing, has QT, or you hit your straight - you have more than enough chips to pass. i don't mean to be rude but did you put him on a hand? if so which one?
Hand 2: i think your opponent had a big hand - you say he was raising your BB, here he just called out of position and then checkraised (the minimum) on the flop - he wanted you in every step of the way - good pass. no point going to war with A8s and all those chips - remember even bullies can pick up big hands. in fact, that's why they bully you so you'll take a stand against their monster with a less than premium hand.
Hand 3: i agree - he's gotta go all in pre-flop, especially if he's prepared to on that flop anyway!
I just started playing tournaments and have been getting AA more often than you might expect. But I've only won once in the last 12 times I got them. Now, this isn't a bad beat story, I just want advice.
Here's how I usually play them. I never raise preflop because if AA is the best starting hand, then I want to have as many players and as much in the pot as possible. Hard to argue against that, right?
Then when the board starts to look scary, then I'll start raising or reraising, to drive everybody out, but they always have some low straight or flush.
I'm pretty sure I'm playing it correctly, but maybe just having a run of bad luck. What do you think?
WB
Actually, no. You are not playing it correctly in most cases. Much, of course, depends on your opponents and the table, however, in general AA and similar starting hands (AKs, KK, QQ) play best against a small number of callers. By not raising pre flop you are basically encouraging more straight and flush hands to draw against you, thereby weakening your holding.
Ok, the start of the thread was an obvious troll, but your response raises a serious question. You say that aces play best against small numbers of opponents. Is this really the case? I thought that while hands that just have high card strength (like AQo) are better, for example, heads up, big pairs were robust enough to play well against a small number or against a crowd. Is this wrong? Obviously, you still want to raise, but that's to get money in the pot when you have the best hand, not to drive people out.
In terms of money (chips) won on the present hand, the more opponents, the more money AA wins. As you say, that doesn't mean you shouldn't raise. It merely means that in a hot-and-cold analysis, with all hands going to the river, AA wins more against 8 opponents than 2. However, in the real-world, this may not pan out, since the most hopeless of the 8 opponents will fold on the flop and contribute no more. The reason to raise is you probably make more money by getting in 2 bets preflop against let's say 4 opponents, than 1 bet each from 8.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
'It merely means that in a hot-and-cold analysis, with all hands going to the river, AA wins more against 8 opponents than 2.'
How do you know that ? Very interesting !
Other people have done the analysis.
Imagine you have 2 players, one with AA and the other hand random. Each puts 1 unit into the pot. Now, you run the simulation a million times or more. If AA wins the pot 85% of the time, let's say, then that equates to a win of 1.7 units, or a profit of +0.7 units.
Now, do the same thing with AA vs. 2 random hands. AA won't win as often as 85%, but it will win often enough that it's profit is greater than 0.7 units. This upward trend will continue for at least as many as 9 opponents. Beyond that, who cares?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You need to raise with AA before the flop.
Against 6 random hands, AA wins 43% of the time. Therefore the great AA loses more often then it wins. And of course, people who call preflop have better then random hands. So your statement that you want lots of callers is wrong.
AA wins 85% against one random hand. So yeah you should raise and hope you get one or two callers.
Ken Poklitar
Nice troll post. What, exactly, are you hoping to achieve?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I wondered how many would give a sincere answer before somebody identified this for what it was.
I'm not sure I want to play poker against Greg, he's too quick and too aware.
:)
WB
I tend to believe the original post and that you don't know how to play AA.
n/t
Would someone have the audacity to post a question like that on here knowing who's going to read it and reply to it?
I believe that 75% of the people that frequent 2+2 know better than that.. and the other 25% wouldn't have the stones to post anything at all.
Will, I say if you're question is serious, keep at your strategy! Don't let these cheeseballs try to tell you how to play cards! What do they know!Continue, and make sure you share with others your strategy with the aces. Not enough players play so well!
..oh, and can I have the location of your casino/card room?? Y'know, just out of CURIOSITY! ;)
CHiP
Three players remain in the tournament. I am the short stack with 600 remaining on the button. The small blind is the chip leader with 15,000. The big blind has around 9,000. Limit tournament with blinds at 200-400. I look down and see Js2c and raise the remaining 200 of my chips, putting myself all-in.
Before you judge this move consider that I know 100% that the small blind is going to fold. I know that sounds rediculous but he is a new player who had gotten lucky and has no clue that he is supposed to call in that situation. He also has a 100% reliable tell when he's not going to play the hand.
This leaves me heads up with the big blind and 200 in dead chips in the center. Do you make the move or pass and wait for the big blind?
Assuming you really know that SB is going to fold, then raising and getting headsup is probably okay.
j2o is a 45% win against a random BB hand.
If you fold and wait until next hand you will have to face 2 random hands so even though you might have a better hand next time you may still have a less then 45% chance to win.
Ken Poklitar
I muck it.
Even though it's heads-up, J2 is not a good hand, and is losing to 2 random cards. Play the next hand, and hope you survive. In fact, about all you can do with your current stack is hope these chip leaders go to war and one of them busts before you do. Not that you shouldn't try to rebuild a stack, but it seems unlikely.
Even if you are likely to face both opponents the next hand, at least you'll win more doing so, and you might not be the dog.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Looking back at mistakes I make in NL tournies, I have noticed raising UTG with good but potentially dominated hands has happened 3 times in the past few months.
Twice in the past few months I raised with it UTG. The 1st time the only caller had a weaker hand but I lost when I didn't hit and he did. The 2nd time the only caller had AKo. I also made a raise with KQs early and lost to AKo.
So when I got AJs on Saturday in the 1st hand of the tourney I mucked it.
AJ is a pretty looking hand that can get one in trouble. Unsuited I muck it early without much problems. Suited it is only slightly better.
So how do you guys play AJs (or KQs, KJs or KTs) UTG or in other early positions? Is it a muck, a limp and see or a raise.
Ken Poklitar
Depending on my stack size with respect to the blinds and ante's I would limp with both AJs and KQs, and fold the others. If the blinds are large compared with my stack, I will usually fold (or go all in if desparate). People often fear a limp from UTG, so they don't raise, and you often get to see the flop for cheap. If there is too much pressure, I am quick to release.
Derrick
Bin them all at a full table in the post-rebuy stage of the tournament.
Andy.
As always, the answer is, it depends on the situation.
If I have a big stack and a good table image I will go ahead and raise. If the table is full of lunatics and wild players I will muck. If the table is full of calling stations and tight/weak players I will limp. Where I normally play, situations 2 and 3 normally prevail.
As I have said before, it doesnt really matter what 2 cards I have if I am attempting to steal the blinds. And against watchful and good opponents an early position raise is likely to get more respect than a cutoff or button raise.
Cheers,
Keith
Problem with all thse hands is if you don't flop the nut flush you are in real trouble if you are in with good players - these hands define being dominated.
But you guys know I don't waste many chips right.
Cheers, Mike
Early, when you can limp for a small fraction of your stack, I would come in with the suited AJ and fold the offsuit. In fact, unless there is going to be a raise pretty often, I will limp with any suited A early when it costs a small fraction to play. If somebody raises any significant amount, you fold. If not, you hope to break somebody when you flop the nuts and they flop the second flush. Or, you catch a flop like AJ3, and bust AQ or AK (and, admittedly, maybe go broke to 33).
If it will cost more than 5% of your stack, or if a raise is somewhat likely (half the time or more), then muck it immediately.
Of course, you're always adjusting for all the little details of the table, but the above is probably my "generic" strategy.
On pokerpages, I play these hands much more often, as I'm more likely to bust AT than to get broke by AK.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
I like your general strategy for playing these hands up front. I will continue to muck KJs, KTs up front. For hands like AJs, ATs & KQs I will limp if the table dictates it and if the blinds are small enough compared to my stack.
I agree that how the table is playing is really important when deciding to limp or raising with marginal hands.
Ken Poklitar
These are really weak hands to enter a pot with UTG.
Your (s) is only adding 4% to your hand and at a NLHE full table UTG or early it is a real loser - look at it this way. Don't enter a pot in early position with a hand you can't call a raise with cuz that is what you might have to do.
Let me just say that you, and probably Andy Ward, have gotta be the tightest players on here!
I agree that limping with these hands is a good way to piss away chips, but I'm also going to have to agree that given the right circumstances (tight/weak opponents, early blinds, etc.) one can play these every once in a while.
If anything, it mixes up your play. Say the blinds are 10/20, you're able to limp in with the AJs UTG. You flop the flush, show it at the end, and everyone sitting at the table now thinks that you'll play a wider range of cards UTG. Later, when you've got pocket rockets and make your standard 3x BB raise, or whatever is your personal preference, someone in late position with a pocket pair like J's may try to raise you off your hand.
I like it when that happens.. stacking all those chips and nodding to the player as he or she leaves the table to join the live game.
Poker Gods, give me Rounder's share of AJs UTG please!
CHiP
OK - what if a good player makes a big raise IN position, or an A flops - AJ is a tough hand to play early. Of course I mix it up and you won't be able to put me on a hand but when push comes to shove hands like AJ are the ones you bust out on.
Tightest ? UTG that's no bad thing. I play a bunch of hands on or near the button though.
If you want to mix it up in early position then you'd be better off raising with 87. It's easier to let go on a re-raise, it's less likely to be dominated by the type of hand that calls you and if you flop something good your opponent may not put you on a hand and could pay you off with even AK or the like.
Andy.
I certainly understand that the suitedness of the trouble hands that I mention only help a bit (4% or so). I think if as Greg mentioned you only play them when the blinds are low compared to your stack and when the table is passive then it is probably a good limp. The key of course is not getting married to top pair with a medium kicker.
Ken Poklitar
You really don't need to win a lot of hands to make the cash and you can't win unless you make the cash 1st. There are times to play tight and times to loosen up. Game conditions and table personality mean more here than in a ring game or limit tournament.
In early position you have to ask your self "what if" questions like what if I get raised by a player in late position, what if an A K or Q fall on the flop and I getbet into by a blind or raised by a player behind.
Sure you can flop a nut hand but chances are you are going to play he 'ranks" here so get rady to answer the "what if" questions.
When Mike was here in the Phoenix area, we saw each other at all of the local tournaments and talk about poker. I was pretty new at NL at the time and one thing I learned from Mike and others that you can't win the tournament in the first few rounds, but you can sure lose. When Mike says you don't have to win many hands, he's right. I played in one tournament at Gila where I didn't put a single bet in the pot (other than mandatory blinds) for the first hour and a half. After the break I hit a hand or two and next thing I'm on the final table and end up chopping first. I probably only won three pots before the final table.
JohnnyD
call the raise.
Tonight, at Foxwoods, you get T200 to start. I always rebuy immediately, and have T400. Sometimes, other players at the table also rebuy. So, blinds are 5,5 and everybody has T200 or T400. If somebody goes broke, the almost always rebuy, and usually for T400. So, limping in typically costs you only slightly more than 1% of your stack. Next level, blinds are 5,10 and limping now costs 2.5%. Then, 10,15 blinds, it costs you somewhere around 4% or less. Basically, you can play these hands as long as the table isn't raising much. If you are raised from 5 to 20 or more, just muck it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
If you are putting in a small % of your stack (say 5%) and have the opportunity to double up if the flop runs over you... then you have a value proposition.
how upsetting would it be with AJs to muck it for 100 out of a stack of 10000 to see you flop the nut flush??
If you flop Axx be careful... but surely a 1% investment is a good bet????
I reckon you should play a tournie like a cash game (pl or nl) try and see as many flops as possible, with as little investment as possible. If you dont connect, muck. No harm done.
Cheers,
Keith
"I reckon you should play a tournie like a cash game (pl or nl) try and see as many flops as possible, with as little investment as possible. If you dont connect, muck. No harm done."
During a rebuy period what you say makes some sense assuming you are willing to rebuy. Once the rebuy period is over one needs to be very careful since you can't go to your pocket and add more chips.
Ken Poklitar
After reading all of the numerous posts about these tournaments,since its inception,i am a little confused. Many people seem happy to reach the last five of a first round event and rate a finish in the top 30 in round two as very acceptable.Whilst others have on occasion belittled the event as nothing more than a crap shoot. I would be interested to find out what you truly think?Considering your experiences of the tournaments and relative strength of the oppositon so far,is it a good achievement to make round two and if so,what if you have made it to the final on April 15th. And following on what would you consider to be the standard of that final round,and of course the fate of the eventual winner. Finally,having dealt,but not competed in many live tournament games,is there any great comparision with the PP tournies and their live counterparts.And how do you think a regular top 30 player in the PP tournies would fair(cope)in the real world?
Here's my take....
* They are a crapshoot.
* Finishing in the top 5 and making it to round 2 is a worthy acomplishment.
* Making it to round 3 is something to be proud of and in my opinion takes some skill. (I have not made it to round 3)
* Participating in this event does NOT prepare you for real life tournaments. If you win this, but have not played in real life NL tournaments, you stand almost no chance of cashing in the real one.
* The winner of this will be an experienced player.
JohnnyD
I believe one key aspect to the PP warm-ups is that they are free. It's easy to play aggressively early to try to jump to a quick chip lead, because if you don't catch, and are beat hand after hand and bust out, you can always play the tournament tomorrow or whatever. You're only out the time you spent playing.
But if you have to front a buy-in for the tourney your playing in, I'll wager your play will change considerably. Try a $200 NL event at the Bicycle, you'll see differences. Or try one of the $500, $1000, or $5000 events at Binion's WPO at the end of the month here. Play won't quite be the same as on the FREE, ONLINE pokerpages warmup.
The best thing you can extract from playing in the PP Warm-ups is how to adjust to different styles of play. Reading and recognizing your opponents and playing them, not the cards.. very important lessons to be learned IMO. Of course, when you've got to sit shoulder to shoulder with your opponents, you're gonna need more than what you gathered online. I'll tell ya one thing, hopefully the winner of the Warm-up will be a veteran of the live game, because if an internet player gets in there with no live experience, it'll be an ugly thing.
CHiP
i play regularly in foxwoods tues. night no-limit tourney, and have done well there the past year. i too found out about the poker pages tourneys about a month ago and made it to round 2 and now i made it to round 3. however, i did adjust my play to try to mesh with the style that it takes to get chips on poker pages, and since about a month ago, i have gotten my butt kicked in the foxwoods tourneys the past few weeks. so in my humble opinion, you have to adjust to the looser style of play on poker pages, and when the blinds and stakes move up, start playing late round casino tournament style. but as i have found out, the mant starting hands i played on poker pages to make it to round 3, doesn't work all that well in casino tourneys. peace, a very stoned ranger...
I was a frequent round 2 maker won a couple and usually finished in last 20 - BUT I quit playing cuz of the frustration of trying to get a seat I also have a basic dislike for online poker.
About the players - once you get past the 50 mark the play is not bad - but if I were you I wouldn't make the mistake of assuming that if you make it on line you can make it in a real live tournament.
Just like to add (after reading the other posts that I agree with Johnny and Chip.
I just hope they do award the prize as advertized.
I haven't been playing a lot of these. Every time I do, it is full of very, very weak players. I have played 8 round 1's, qualified twice. That means 4 round 2s, no advancement in those. So, only 12 total.
I saw no significant improvement in the average skill level of the round 2 events as compared to round 1. Presumably there is some, however. As for round 3, I think it will still be full of very weak and/or inexperienced players. While a good, experienced player has a better than average shot at winning the whole thing, I would guess that of the final 104, about 97 will show up, and of those, at least half will be very weak. Of the half that aren't very weak, 3/4 of those will be merely weak and/or have little real-world experience. Overall, there is a very good chance that somebody with pretty much no hope at the WSOP will be the winner.
Odds against the pokerpages champ becoming the WSOP champ? If I had the bankroll, I would book bets at 1000:1, and wouldn't make the bet myself unless the payout were at least 5,000:1.
However, I have heard rumors that some very good real-world NL HE tourney champs have participated in this event. Rumored (and it's nothing but a rumor, as far as I know) players include Kathy Liebert, Tom McEvoy, Daniel Negreaneu (sp?), and Chris Ferguson. Any of these would have a legitimate shot at the WSOP.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I guess so 2 have won already.
:-)
I've seen TJ on Poker Spot he is man eneough to use his real name there - how about the rest of you - when I was playing on like it was always good to know who I was playing.
I would assume that many regular posters on this forum have participated in this event.Would your perceived notion of the amount of "very, very weak players" in these events not benefit,to some extent,those who play(and have a better general understanding of)a more orthodox game(of which i would tend to include those who take the time to make posts on this forum)?
I have no doubt that the eventual winner of the event will probably not go on to reach the money at Binions.Should this,however,detract from the achievement of winning this unique event.
Whatever is said,i dont think it can be argued that this competition has stirred up a tremendous amount of interest and comment.Thus,i am surprised that(if i read it correctly)you feel that only 12 players in that third round will be anything other than weak.Not withstanding the fact that you have mentioned the rumours of four names(well above average?) that have supposedly already taken part.
In my estimation this would be well below 1% of the total number of players that will have participated somewhere along the line in at least one of these events.
Just some thoughts,and thanks for the replies to date.
P.S.If you lay me 2500/1,i 'might' risk a pound!
I'm not meaning to be denigrating. It's just that of the opponents I've faced in 8 round 1 and 4 round 2 events, at least 80% of them have shown themselves capable of making horrendous plays. I mean plays like calling a raise for 1/4 of your stack with J9o, limping in early position for 1/3 of your stack when you're so close to the win that the table has finally tightened up (and you can steal blinds), and even worse. Anyway, even though the best players obviously have the best chance of winning, they are so outnumbered by the weak players that there is a very good chance that a weak player will come through as the winner. And, even some of the best players in these events, even in the top 5% of any given tourney, still have VERY little chance at the WSOP. Not many people make the money at the WSOP who don't have some pretty good experience in their pocket, and (almost) nobody but a very good player has ever won.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
'Not many people make the money at the WSOP who don't have some pretty good experience in their pocket, and (almost) nobody but a very good player has ever won.'
Care to elaborate?
If you look at the list of players in the money at the WSOP main event, almost all of them are recognizable names from previous tourneys as listed in CardPlayer and elsewhere. There will be a couple of names you don't recognize from such sources. Oftentimes, they will still be very good players who just haven't played many tourneys. There aren't that many chumps in the list.
Also, with 2 exceptions, every WSOP main event winner has been a professional poker player. There was a guy who won back in the 70s I believe, the year Bobby Hoff finished 2nd I think, who was an amateur and considered to be NOT very good. Apparently he got VERY lucky numerous times, which shows that anybody has some chance of winning. Also, Noel Furlong is not a pro. However, he is a veteran of high stakes games, and while the jury is apparently out as to whether he's a losing player or a great-but-misunderstood player, he certainly has 2 key ingredients for winning NL HE tourneys, aggression and an utter lack of fear. The fact that he's a millionaire in his real job probably helps in this last feature. How good he really is I don't know. I've heard stories going both ways about him from various sources on the internet and in person.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think you are referring to the late Hal Fowler
Regards
I found out about pokerpages yesterday, and played in my first tournament yesterday afternoon.
First of all, I have *NO* tournament experience, only LL hold 'em (6-12). I've played some very small NL and PL games, but that's nothing like a tourney. So I was pleased, but not overly, to have made it to the final table. I busted out 9th.
My brief observations: Most players suck. Hell, how else could I have gotten that far? Until about 40 players are left, people are still playing like a crapshoot. Of those 40, lots are just rocks who are blinding off their stacks, and several are maniacs who've run up a big stack and have since become conservative. Actually, this second style may be the more correct way to play. As to it being a crapshoot overall, so what? It's a FREEROLL. I think that's the definition of a crapshoot. And with decent play you certainly have a chance of winning.
In any case, the final table still had players betting all in preflop from UTG with 8000+ chips and the blinds 250-500. Now I don't know if anyone does this at a real tournament, but I would imagine they wouldn't last long. So overall, the level of play, to my limited vision, just wasn't that great.
As to someone decent coming out of the 3rd round? Probably there will be someone at least okay. 50-50 there will be someone good/excellent or okay/bad. Chances of cashing in the Big One? Not good, but just because there's not really a great chance of anyone cashing with over 600 entrants anticipated this year. Combine that with the possibility of a (relatively) poor player winning the PokerPages WSOP Warm Up, and you can estimate the odds for yourself.
Bill
I agree with what many people have already stated. I think that the average pokerpages player is a below average NL tournament player. Most of these players have only played free pokerpages tournaments. That being said I have played live tournaments where the players seemed worse then pokerpages. I was in a unlimited rebuy NL tourney a few weeks back. My table must have averaged 4 rebuys per person. Players were going all-in with total crap. I just sat back played good cards and piled the chips.
I have made round 2 three times including last night. I think the round 2 players seemed better then round 1. I would guess that round 3 will have much better players. Will the round 3 winner do well in the main event? Who really knows. Hopefully I will find out in person!
I think if a player can consistently end up in the top 20 or 30 of pokerpages that they will probably do good in live NL tournaments. There are adjustments that need to be made. Plus it is much different to go all-in when you actually paid for these chips. On pokerpages if you make a mistake, you know there is another tourney the next day. In real life you have just lost your buy-in and rebuy money.
Enough rambling,
Ken Poklitar
No limit torney--- I have A3 offsuit. Antie is $1000 & blinds are $3000 & $4000 I am in little blind. I have about $95,000. Cost $10000 to see flop, I call 3 players---flop K73 rainbow. Costs another $10`000 to see turn. I call-- 1 player folds-- turn is 9----I am last to act. Checked to me--- I also check, I think I have to catch A or 3 to win. I put him on a pair but not trips yet. The river another 3 I think I have him now with trip 3`s He checks again. I think for sure I have the best hand now. Other player has about $65`000 left. QUESTION IS Do I Check, put him all in or just bet a smaller amount?
I think he will not call all in. So I bet $25`000 He calls. He shows 88 for 2 pair. What was the right amount to bet here? Coyote
I would worry about other aspects of my game.
Why did you call the raise preflop? Why did you call on the flop? Why didn't you bluff the turn (and why are you last to act on the turn, when you were in the small blind)? Why are you playing in a tourney where the blinds are 3K/4K?
As for your question, nobody can say who wasn't there. The secret (well, one secret) to NL HE is accurately gauging how much to bet when you want a call. There is no generic formula or anything close to it. You bet what you think THIS particular opponent will call.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I knew I would get an ass chewing for even being in the hand-- this was just yesterday in WRGPT 10 ---- Calling $10`000 is limping in this game. I must of not been in blind I don`t remember exact but I was last to act any way. I could of tried to bluff on the turn but I didn`t. I drew out on the guy and that was all there was to it-- I just wasn`t sure how to bet on the river.
Coyote
As I've said to other posters, if you can't recall the details of the hand accurately when you take the time to post them here, how likely is it that you were really paying attention at the time?
I think the biggest problem for a lot of smart poker players is not their inability to understand the necessary concepts, it is the inability to consider ALL the appropriate variables, and to then narrow down to the key concerns for a given decision. Here, you were so worried about how much to bet on the river you couldn't recall even what position you were sitting in. In effect, it appears you completely ignored these other important considerations, and focussed on something that wasn't the most critical.
To be honest, I think scientists and lawyers tend to be pretty good at considering it all, yet then moving forward to focus on the key stuff. I believe that it is part of the training for either career. I'm lucky to have been trained in both. People who focus on the wrong parameter, or fail to consider important things in the middle of a hand, are not stupid. Often, I think, they tend to seize on one thing a little too quickly, almost as if their mind is working so fast it has jumped on an issue before considering everything else.
Try to consider everything, to the greatest extent possible. Then, determine which considerations are the most important to the present decision, and weigh them to reach your best decision.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg--- I must be doing something right-- I am setting 11th out of a starting of almost 1000 players.
Thanks for your most valuable advice.
Coyote
So, you're in a NL HE tourney. In this case, pokerpages, but you could pretend it's a WSOP super-satellite instead.
Final 5 get a seat. Down to 15, 8 at your table. Average stack is almost 4300. Blinds are 150-300. You are the big blind with 1300 after posting. UTG goes all-in for 1450, meaning if you call you're almost eliminated, with only 150 left. Everybody folds. This is the third time in the last 5 hands that UTG has raised all-in preflop. First time he got called by a weak player with KJ, and they chopped with a flush on board, UTG had AQo. Second time, nobody called. This is the third time.
What do you call with? What do you call with at the WSOP super-satellite, as opposed to a pokerpages event?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
With 15 left and only 1450 in chips I need to win a few hands to make 5th place but the button is soon arriving and I just love the button in a NLHE event.
You could have 7 hands to look for the "right" hand but in your situation with this guy playing fast UTG I need a decent pair 99/TT or better to call him maybe AK if I have any kind of read on this guy - I also don't want to bust out with AK here so I want to go in the hand a fav. read maens a lot here.
As for PP well I quit playing them but I'd probably losen up a bit and Play th AK 70% of the time. Again demending a lot on the guy raising.
Whoa, Rounder's way tighter than I! Back to "the books"!!
I would play 10/10 or higher and AK. Probably not AQ or KQ, but that depends.
Good, interesting scenario Fossilman.
Seeing how UTG has just about 5x the big blind, I'd assume that he's not going to be extremely picky about his hands. I think if it were me in the situation in a pokerpages warm-up, with a small stack also, I'd be calling with pocket 6's or larger, any ace, any king, and probably Q-8+.
I'm not sure exactly how much a WSOP supe costs, but I'm figuring it's substantial. So in this case, I'm probably a little tighter, going with pocket pairs, any ace, and K-8+.
That's my quick analysis on the situation.. based on about a year's worth of play. I'm now going to read Rounder's reply, and wait for others to reply, especially you Greg, to see how far off I am!
CHiP
In this scenario I am desparate for chips. I need to win a hand to make top 5. I would play pocket 8's or better A-9 or better or KQ or KJ. I hate coming in against an all in raise, I would rather be the all in raiser. The one hand he showed down was legit, and who is to say he isn't just hitting cards now. I need a fairly strong A because he may be raising any A.
Just my opinion.
What would you call with?
Derrick Ashworth
The fact that he has previously raised twice in the past four UTG hands says that he probably does not have an overly tight UTG raising standard. Plus his stack is getting small. So it seems to me that he probably has any pair. He might have A9+, KT+ or even something as weak as QT+.
So for me to commit the remainder of my stack I would want to have those hands beat. I call with any pair, AJ+ and KQ+.
Ken Poklitar
Thanks for your replies, and I hope others continue with their thoughts. I liked Ken's answer, though I would tend to be a little bit tighter than he. Instead of any pair, I would probably go with a cutoff of pairs 66 and higher, maybe 77 or 88, just so I'm ahead of at least a few of his pairs, when he has a pair.
For those who are results-oriented, here's what happened. Big blind called with QhTd. UTG had 7s6s. Board came out Ah5s8s-2d-Tc, and big blind is the winner.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Fossilman,
As long as we're heads up, I'll play any two cards eight high or greater. Since, I know he likes to play a hand with an ace, there's a good probability that he could have a weak ace hand. Furthermore, I would consider the type of hands he likes to play from watching what he shows down. I would like to have a hand that is live against his giving me a 50% or better chance to win.
Basically, I feel that when someone is shortstacked and moves in under the gun, they are playing a weak hand. If I know he plays ace-rag, I'll play any pair down to dueces. I'm getting good enough odds to do so.
Are you saying you'd call from the BB, getting odds of roughly 3:2, with hands like 89, J8, Q9, etc.? Or, are you saying PAIRS 88 and higher?
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
My choice of hands to call with in this situation depend on my opponent. With that in mind, the pot odds are 1.65-to-1 to call. So, theoretically I only need a 37.7% chance to win to make calling correct.
I will play all pairs. 22 will beat AK 53.04% (I ran this on Poker Probe). Basically, I have an approximate 50% chance to beat any two overcards, even with a pair of dueces. My opponents chances of having been dealt a pair are 16-to-1. Of course, bigger pairs are better since they will make you a favorite over small connectors or ace-smaller than your pair hands.
After running some comparisons with Poker Probe I came to the following conclusions. I will play any two connected cards with an 8 or better. If they are not connected they have to be suited. Examples: 98, T9, JT, QJ, KQ, AK for the connected hands, and suited can be Ks8s, 9s8s, Qs8s.
Here are some comparisons I ran:
AK vs. 98 98 wins 36.43%
AK vs. 98 suited 98 suited wins 40.31%
AQ vs. K8 suited K8 suited wins 39.72%
A7 vs. 98 suited 98 suited wins 47.03%
A7 suited vs. 98 98 wins 40.83%
A7 vs. K8 K8 wins 39.4%
As far as your other question concerning the WSOP super satellites you have the advantage of watching your opponent.
Greg's going to tear this one up, mah.
You are under the mistaken assumption that, in a tournament, correct pot odds will justify a play. I don't have the experience or sophistication to broach this subject, but I'd like to hear what Fossilman says.
emmett,
The pot odds were not the only consideration. Your opponent is moving in on three out of five hands, so he's playing 60% of what is being dealt to him. Furthermore, your stack at this point is small. If you piss away the blinds, which at this time are $450 per round, you will have to play any hand to have a chance. Then you may get unlucky and have to play against a tight player like Rounder. I'll let Ray Zee moderate this one, otherwise I'm going back to the Stock Market forum, it's more interesting.
I think you should tighten up a bit. Your analysis is largely correct, but the matchups you're showing us only give the raiser Ax hands. What about when HE holds the pair? If he is going to raise with any A in this spot, he would also raise with any pair, I would imagine. Against those pairs, your selection of hands doesn't do as well, since sometimes the pair will be higher than 1 or both of your cards.
Check back with this forum more often, please.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Those matchups are just examples. When you are short-stacked you have to take some risks, sometimes the risks are extreme, but not incorrect.
If you have a loose player that disregards position and will play 60% of the hands dealt to him, you need to adjust to it. In this situation, you only need to play a hand that will win approximately 38% of the time due to the pot odds that are created by the large blinds when you have a small stack.
My point is that you should be selecting hands that will be better than what your opponent has been playing. There's alot of guesswork involved. So, the evaluation of your opponent is extremely important.
Just to answer you question. You're opponent will have a pair less than 6% of the time. When you have connectors that are eight or higher you will beat him approximately 50% of the time. When you have a pair, even dueces, you will beat his connectors 50% of the time. If he has AK it does not matter much if you have dueces or queens.
Let's look at the situation: Blinds are 300-150, your stack is at 1300 after paying the big blind. You are probably going to lose your ability to hurt most stacks with a raise on the next round of blinds (The SB is coming, -150; then eight hands later the next round, -450; this leaves you with 700).
I think you can throw away 98, small pairs, etc. and chose your next battle, where you are the aggressor. By the way, what are you doing up so late?
The Union Plaza cardroom in Las Vegas has a WSOP satellite that works as follows:
There are two rounds involved. First, ten people buy in for $35 a piece, no re-buys and play a freeze-out till there is one player left. The winner of this one table satellite gets a receipt to play in the second round against 9 other players who have done the same. The final winner gets a $2000 WSOP buy-in plus some cash.
My question: Assuming I'm twice as likely to win than the average player at the two tables, what are my chances of winning a $2000 buy-in from the time I make that $35 buy in in the first round? In other words, what are my chances of winning both the first round 1 table satellite and the second round 1 table satellite?
I'm not very good in math, but I would say you're chances are 25-1.
But my question is, do you play your second round the same day you play your first round? And are they played on the weekend. If so, I wouldn't mind making a weekend trip and trying this.
JohnnyD
The second round is only on wednesdays, 7 p.m. First rounds are everyday (except monday) from 4 p.m. to around midnight.
BTW, the Horseshoe has the same deal, except that it's for the "big one". The buy-ins are $110. I don't know the details though. You have to call them.
Assuming all players at the table are average but you, you can use the following:
Let A be the chance of the average player, and there are 9 average players at the table and you who has 2A chance of winning.
9A + 2A = 1 --> 11A = 1.
The average guy has 1 chance in 11 and you have 2 chances in 11 of getting by the first round.
Assuming you have an equal chance as everyone else at the final table (1 in 10) you have 2 chances in 110. You are more than a 50 to 1 shot. If you still feel you are twice as good as the average at the final table, you have 4 chances in 121, about a 30 to 1 shot.
Either way it is a +EV bet, because you are going for a $2000 prize for $35. This is greater than 55 to 1. Go for it.
Derrick Ashworth
Average player has 10% chance, so you have a 20% chance. 20% times 20% is 4%, or 24:1 against. You're paying $35 to win $2,000+, so if you're this good compared to the field, it is a good +EV situation for you.
However, you'll have to be a good bit better than the field here, since unless that "some cash" they're adding is pretty high. If it's just enough for the Horseshoe vig, then you're only getting (I think) $100 in cash. The Plaza is collecting $3500 in fees, and if they're only paying out $2100, then they're pocketing 40% of the money, which is a pretty high vig to overcome. Plus, while you could easily be twice as good as the average player in the first satellite, it's going to be tough to be twice as good as the other 9 winners.
I'm pretty curious how long each 1-table event lasts. Many 1-table sats are only about 1-1.5 hours long. If the Plaza is really collecting $1400 to run 11 of them, that's an hourly collection of between $85-125/hour, which is much better than most poker games make for the house in LV, and MUCH better than the Plaza usually sees for it's games. From what I've heard in the past, you don't get any great "deals" from the Plaza WSOP satellites or supers, in the sense that they're offering cheap events. From what I've heard, they always offer events that make a rather high profit margin for them, but which are relatively unique in that they offer the very low limit players a shot at a big one. As long as you know what you're going up against in terms of the vig, then they certainly can't be slightled for offering games that players want.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Your chance is 99 to 1
I'm travelling frequently to L.A. Are any of the casinos there running one-table satellites for the Big One?
Daily No-Limit hold'em tourney,
I'm in the Big Blind(blinds are $25 & $50), rebuy period is over. I have about $700 after i post.
Under-the-gun limps, it's passed to the small blind who almost folds, but he calls. I have A-4 suited and check it, $150 in the pot.
The Flop: K-7-4 with two of my suit. Small blind checks and I bet $200, under-the-gun goes all-in, he's got me covered if I call, small blind folds, it's my turn. What would you do here?
A little info on under-the-gun. He almost certainly has a king here, but FOR SURE doesn't have A-K.
Thanks for any advice, Don
Well you eigther double through or bust out what's your poison.
You're probably right about the 14 clean outs only other possibility is a set of 7's maybe 4.s taking a couple of outs out of the mix.
I recon it's one of those hands that will make a difference on where you finish. I probably make this call most of the time in these circumstances.
Call. You have enough outs to make the call.
You are beat at the moment--but its a big pot, I would most likely put him on something like K-Big, Maybe an Ace (which would reduce your outs).
Borderline play--Call is sound
It boils down to what kind of player he is. I agree that he could have KQ or KJ. But, is he the kind of player who would go all-in in this kind of a situation? There is a good possibility that he has a set of 7s or 4s. In that case your call would be a huge mistake. You would only have 9 outs and if he fills on the turn you are almost drawn dead. The other possibility is that he has 5 6 of your same suite. But, again is he the kind of player who would limp under the gun with this kind of a hand? I would have probably folded here fearing a set. You have to rely on your read too. You made a decent bet for $200 into him. If he has KQ he will have to think a whole lot before moving all-in. I mean you're the big blind. You could have K7 74 or K3. If he moved in without hesitation: most likely a set.
The pot is T1050, and the call is T500. Over 2:1. I like the part of Razor's post where he analyzes the raiser's hand to be a set. If this player is good, then razor is correct, as no other hand makes much sense, unless he thinks you're bluffing and is rebluffing. Is he capable of such a play? Is he so loose-aggressive that he's going to make this raise with KQ or less?
If you're against a set, then the 2:1 you're being offered by the call isn't enough, as you're about a 2.5:1 dog. If you're up against any other reasonable hand that he might hold (meaning he can't have 2 pair on this flop), you're a slight favorite or better.
So, if you call when he has a set, you're making a small mistake, but one that knocks you out. If you fold and he doesn't have a set, that's a pretty big mistake in terms of surrendered expectation. If you were almost in the money, folding might be the better play. If there is a good chance he has a set, folding is probably the better play. Any other circumstances, and the call is pretty clear.
Next time, you might choose to bet less. You bet 200 into a pot of 150. Why? Wouldn't they be almost as likely to fold if you bet 100? If they don't, but you think a further bet is warranted, you can bet 200 on the turn, and 400 again on the river (if correct to bet at all). This gives you 3 chances to make them fold, and gives you more opportunity to get away from the hand if you decide later you're beat (and shouldn't chase).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Part of my thinking would include this, is the $700 you have after your post ~par, much below par, or lots higher. If I'm way below par, I make the call. I need to double up. If I'm over par, then why take the chance.
JohnnyD
I agree. A lot of the time you know intuitively that it's a marginal call given what's in the pot and what your opponent might have. This is the kind of thing you should be thinking about as a tie-breaker. If you are short-stacked and/or against tough opponents, tend to call. If you are chipped up and/or against weak opponents, wait for a better spot.
Andy.
I think it is a close call/fold. Assuming he has Kx, you are a slight dog. If he has a set then you are a big dog.
If you really believe he has Kx and you don't mind busting out on a draw then go for it. Of course you could double up as well!
So what happened?
Ken Poklitar
I ran the simulations. The only hands that our hero is behind, in terms of pot equity (which is all that matters at this point, right?), are sets, 2 pair, and AK. He is about 2.5:1 behind the sets, less than 15% behind the other hands (i.e., ~4:3 behind). So, unless the opponent has a set, this is a clear call for our hero, IMO.
However, if the raiser is a solid player, he should have a set or a bluff in this spot.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
When I said he was a slight dog to Kx I was only comparing the two hands. I was not looking at the pot. The pot is certainly laying the correct odds if you know he has Kx.
Ken Poklitar
No, not just pot odds. On this flop of Kh7h4d, Ah4h will beat KsXs over half the time.
If you have 14 clean outs, you are the slight favorite. If you have 13 clean outs, you are a slight dog. These numbers can vary a bit, depending upon the number of redraws the opponent has, so you can be a slight dog with 14 outs where the opponent has significant redraws to a better hand. If you have 13 outs and the opponent has zero redraws, it is almost a dead heat.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Sorry, I should have mentioned that the guy was loose[this is a daily tournament, where most of the players are horribly loose]. I've played with this guy close to a dozen times, so I was confident he didn't have A-K, or pocket Kings since he would have raised.
Anyway, this guy has a tell that SCREAMED he just wanted the hand to over-with, and that is why his holding really wasn't an issue for me. I figured he held K-Q, K-J, or K-10.
He had K-Q offsuit with no club, which was my suit. I didn't improve and went home, oh well.
-Don
Meant to say,
"...he just wanted the hand to 'be' over-with"
Last night I was playing in a small PL Omaha tourney with 23 players. £10 for 500 chips, rebuy when you go broke for 500. Rebuy period is 1h45m. Likely prize pool is ~£1200 so 6k would be average to start final. After 90mins I have 8.5k and can probably fold to the final and still have a decent stack.
However, in the last 15 minutes of rebuys I lose 4k. I call an all-in bet getting excellent pot odds for 1k or so, and after lose out for 2k or so with double suited aces.
The question is, given the small size of the tourney, when I get to 8.5k, do I just sit and read the paper until the final table? Or do I play when the situations are favourable?
Money is top three only, but often a deal with 4. I played the two good situations since if I win and have more than 10k my chances at a money finish are excellent. Lose them both and I still have 4.5k at the end of the buy-ins (average 2.5k) which is enough to play with.
Any comments appreciated.
Dave Veitch
Dave,
You're thinking about all the right things. In this spot you might be less keen to push small edges, but if you're a decent favourite I think you should still go for it, except maybe against someone who has enough chips to bust you but presumably no one has at this point.
Andy.
I think you have to continue playing your "A" game. I think it is fine to be a bit more careful but why fold playable hands. Personally I think you don't want just an average stack when you get to the final table. Anytime you can have an above average stack you have more of a chance to win the tournament.
Ken Poklitar
When you are playing in a limit tournament, does anyone practice the idea of calling down a hand when you think you started better?
In hold'em, like no other game, hands that start in the lead tend to finish in the lead. NL consistently has all-n battles of a small pair against 2 overcards, but most of time these battles occur before the flop, with one committing his entire stack to the hand.
In limit, it is much less costly too play such a hand. But the question is, does this mentality enter into anyone's mind?
For example, you are the BB and all fold to the cutoff who raises or some other player in a steal position and you can't put him on a hand. Say you have 6-6, 5-5, or some other pair. How would you play the hand? Surely you can't be under the no set no bet philosophy against 1 opponent, but do you give up when 2 or 3 overcards come?
Now I know you need to play your best game at all times with a few deviations for deception. But what about when you just don't know?
My idea is this, in a given situation where you believe that you have a better hand preflop but aren't quite sure, to disregard the board completely. (unless you hit a set) Just call the man down. Odds are, if he had overcards, you may have a winner. Now some will say this is a costly tactic and I know some would play the hand differently if your opponent slowed down, but I don't see a reason to deviate. Most would agree that to call in this spot when 3 cards T or higher hit the board, but otherwise, why not take those 6 to 5 odds in this spot?
(ATTENTION: Following is against almost all teachings about hold'me)
Why not, in a situation like this, play the hand timid? Don't be aggresive just this once. If he slows down, he slows down. Let the small pair take down big slick. Just check and call, check and call. If he checks behind you, just check right along again.
People do get reads on others and sometimes you can safely throw away those small pairs. But against one opponent, if you think your small pair beats his A high or K high before the flop, call him down.
Against 1 opponent, if you are going to see the flop with a small pair, you see it through to the river.
PP tourneys using this tactic-3 1st (1 $30, 2 $100) 1 2nd ($50) and 1 3rd ($100) in last 7 tourneys.-Everyone of these contained a large pot late in the tournament (usually level 5) where I just called down a preflop raise with a pocket pair no bigger than 8-8. Some slowed down, some continued to bet and I did lose to an AJ and an AQ where they hit.
The funny thing is, all the big pairs would check trying to trap on the flop or later and would not get paid off as much as I would check right behind.
AND YES, THIS IS ALMOST ALWAYS DONE WITH POSITION.
Colonel See y'all in Tunica
Sorry, meant to say "Most would agree that calling in this spot when 3 cards T or above hit the board is wrong, but otherwise, why not take those 6 to 5 odds?"
At one point, you put forth a hypothetical where you're the big blind, and you get raised by the cutoff seat. Then, at the end of your post, you say in all caps that this play is done with position. Which is it? I'm confused.
The problem with this play is 2-fold. First, if your opposition isn't totally aggressive, he will check behind on the turn and/or river. Against these players, you will win 1 or 2 fewer big bets when you win. But, if he has a pair, especially top pair, he will be much less likely to check behind you. Thus, when you lose, you tend to lose a bet every round. If this is the way it's working, even though you win 6 out of 11 contests, you're losing chips at the end of 11 typical contests. 5 times you lose 7 small bets, and 6 times you win 3-7 small bets. Do the math, and if the guy backs down even just on the river, you're losing more than you're winning this way.
Second, you are passing up opportunities to win on the flop and/or turn without reaching a showdown. Sometimes this will save you the pot. Admittedly, it is harder to read an opponent online, so it is going to be hard to know accurately when the guy has missed his overcards and when he has hit. In the real-world, this is where reading your opponent sets apart the mediocre players from the great.
Third (I just thought of another), what about when the opponent has a bigger pair? He won't always have AK or QJ or such and miss. A significant portion of the time, he'll have a pair bigger than yours (at least, he'll have a bigger pair more often than a smaller pair). You lose out pretty big on these contests. And, your method gives you no chance of bluffing out his 99 with your 66 when 2 or 3 big cards hit the board.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Most if not all tournaments have a hand for hand rule that comes in to play when one player remains on the bubble. This rule is suppossed to bring some sort of equanimity to this situation. I believe this rule to be cumbersome to say the least. I would like to see it eliminated. I do not have a replacement rule. What do you think should occur when one player remains before money is dispersed?
It's less cumbersome than putting the clock on half the players every time it's their turn to act. You can bet if I faced any risk of going broke on the bubble, and the tables weren't hand-for-hand, I'd take the full time allowed every chance I got, no matter what peer pressure I might face. While I agree the rule is a pain, I haven't ever heard a better alternative. If somebody is creative enough to devise one, I will be the first to stand and applaud.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
nt
It is NOT cumbersome it speeds up the game - consider this, say the tables are 6&5 handed IF you are not playing hand for hand there is nothing so stop players from slowing down play to let the other table play more hands thus gaining an unfair advantage. I like the rule and hope it stays in existance.
This was on Pokerpages but I think it applies to all tourneys.
I have pocket 3s in the BB. The blinds are 15-30. I have ~T650 which is about average stack. I have just been moved from another table so I can't say much about the players, there has not been a showdown since I got here 3 hands ago.
There are 3 limpers to me, I check. There is T135 in the pot.
FLOP: A-A-K
I check, check, check then late limper goes all-in for T540.
What's your play?
Thanks in advance,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Easy fold.
If he's ahead of you, you have 2 outs or no outs. On average, you're probably something like a 15:1 dog.
If you're ahead, unless he has 22, 23, or 3x, you're only ahead by 2:1. So, you have to be something like 85% sure that you're ahead for the call to be break-even. Too many pokerpages players aren't subtle enough to know they should play it slow if they flop trips. Others will be super-aggressive in last position with a K, figuring you can't have an A and check. Others are just stupid, and would make the play with a hand like 66. If this were a real tourney, somebody with a hand as strong as AK might make the play to be tricky. They figure that you'll figure they can't have an A and overbet the pot like that because they won't get any action. Then, you call with a hopeless hand. Can't say how often such a play might occur, but I've seen it done more than once or twice.
Wait for a better spot.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
you must fold. you don't know anything about the other players so it's very unlikely you have a read on them and the old adage applies about being a big dog or a small favourite.
If he has an ace, a pocket pair other than 2s, or a king you must hit a 3. if he has any hand that doesn't contain a 2 he can hit that and if the board comes with another king or runner runner pair to counterfeit your 3s you're more than likely going to be playing the board.
obviously, you can only beat a complete bluff and your outs are so slim a call cannot be justified. you have 20 times the big blind and an average stack - just wait for a better opportunity.
So you think he might be trying to steal the pot, well that's certainly possible. But you don't have anything, and you're not last to act t'boot. Meaning that there are two people to act after you if you call, and it's possible one of them has you beat since sooooo many people will check an ace to trap someone in this situation, and they'll often check a king here too because they are afraid of the aces.
You might have the best hand, but I'd dump the pocket 3's, I think you can find a better spot for your money. [Note]Even if the guy betting has a total rag like 5-7, you'd still have to pray he doesn't hit one of his 6 outs on the turn or river, which he'll do about 24% of the time.
Later
,,,
I would fold. Although the late limper probably does not have an Ace, he may have a King and probably has 2 overcards to your pair. Plus someone that really does have an Ace may call the raise after you act.
Dump it,
Ken Poklitar
Well I did fold, I thought this would be the general play.
First, even if I was sure the all-in dude was full of it and had nothing, he could have 44 and have me in a pretty bad spot. If he has overcards then I'm a favorite but still has 6 outs. But he could have something like JT, QT, QJ for another 4 outs.
Second, those 2 players yet to act. One of them could be trapping. I'd be looking like a novice if I had called and one of them held an ace.
Third, and most importantly, I had no read of the players, (this was online). Nowhere to go, niet, nothing.
For those interested, one of the other players did call (with ??), the all-in dude had 6-4 suited and turned a 4 to win the hand.
Let's change it for fun. Say now you are playing live, you think the other 2 players will fold, you believe the all-in dude is still full of it and has nothing (you saw him be overly aggressive), you have pocket nines. What's your play?
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Actually even with say 98 he has at least two more outs (the remaining kings).
forgot to write it...
thanks...
You should still fold. The other players think you are weak since you are the big blind and you did not raise preflop. If you had raised preflop and only got one or two callers, you could make a small bet, making it appear that you caught part of the flop and want to build the pot, but if I got reraised I'd toss it away. I'm talking about doing this in a real tournament with players that think a bit. As far as the poker pages players you can forget about it. According to Mark Napolitano he has 30% experienced players registers, and 70% novices. The fancy moves don't work in the poker pages tournament, expect they will work when you play round two. I found the players to be along the lines of being able to think beyond what they are holding.
Good Luck
mah
I'm going to the NEPC next week. I'm arriving with a friend on Thursday. I'm planning to enter the NL tourney on friday and numerous satellites (which I hope are going to be NL HE even after the NL event on friday). Are any of you planning on playing in these?
If any posters whish to come and say hello, it would be an honor to meet you. BTW, I'm the dude with a goatee and a little crown (ThePrince :-)) as a lucky charm.
Greg: I hope to see you again. Are you playing in any of these?
See you all there,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I'll be there for the first no limit event. Maybe we can talk them into spreading some pot limit hold'em, which they sometimes do during tournaments.
I'll probably play some satellites too. You get a lot of play for your money in these events at Foxwoods.
I'll be there, playing the Thurs limit and Fri nolim events. As for satelites after the tourny...well that''l be like 3-4 AM so I doubt it.
I meant on saturday and sunday.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Sorry Nick, I was ASSUMING yu would make the final table which would be at about 2-3AM ;-)
There are already daily Sats, so there will be plenty. But 7CS seems to be mre popular this time or some reason? I expect ALOT of nolim sats on the weekend though....good luck.
I'll be the guy that looks like a Crazy Jim.
Barring unexpected circumstances, I'll be playing a minimum of 6 events. Fri-Sun the first week, and Thu-Sat the second week. I would like to play in all 11 events, but I do have to work, unfortunately. I probably can't afford to take off extra workdays. If I can, I'll play in the first HE event on Thu., 3/29.
I'll also be around this weekend if I can get away from home to play some satellites, which are supposedly running as we speak. If anyone has been there the last few days, please report on the pre-tournament satellite activity for us.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
yup - i was there tues. the satellites are up and running, though I couldn't rally troops for any no-limit satellite action before the 7pm tourney, as everyone was requesting stud and limit, and one crazy guy looking for a lowball draw with jokers satellite. also, foxwoods is getting quite a cut. 30 clams to enter a 200 lamer + 20 cash satellite. they net 70 a table. can't wait for the friday no-limit event though...
Greg , if your job is harmfull to some poker tournements ; quit your job ...
I have a wife, a child, and a mortgage. I also earn enough that I'd have to be among the true elite of poker to make more at just poker. Finally, even if that were the case, it would mean at least half the year out of town, and I wouldn't be able to enjoy having a wife and child.
Otherwise, a great idea. If I were single, I probably would just be playing poker.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Fossilman,
We can have a coffee break on Sat and Sun. See you there.
vince
Will be at Foxwoods NEPC next week arriving on Tues. morning.Is anyone interested in a roomshare$ Why spend $75 when we can knock it down to $25 or less.male 45 years old. A cot and a shower and I'm gone for the day.
Well, I got smashed about halfway, my 87th Foxwoods T appearence, a flop arrg. So Craig's hands are more interesting:
This is the Tues night Foxwoods No Limit: I finally get back down and Greg's a no show, sheesh. T pays to 9th place, 65 entrants, usual crowd of rebuying morons that (bless their hearts) pump up the prize pool.
It's down to 12, 6 on each table (no hand for hand this time, the manager doesnt want to bother). Craig is short, has about $800left after the $300 BB, 300/150blinds, 50ante. He looks down to see 49o.
1) Should he even look or is this blind in need of defense regardless? I mean, is the math there to take a shot at a shot or fold and have too little to have a meaningful chance of a high finish?
Mean Kenny in mid pos goes allin (5K+), Ralph next to him calls allin ($4k+), folds to Craig....DOES he play or not, given an instant TRIPLE if he wins, and an trip to the rail in 12th if he looses. If he FOLDS he's left with 800 and little chance of much past 9th-10th anyway. Carlos has long since gone home BTW ;-)
2) With all this action, and given we are talking about KENNY and RALPH who are way too agressive, and also are having a pissing contest today, should Craig take the plunge and a shot at a triple up.
Ralph wins the hand A4 vs AT on a 9942J board. Craig folded, so he has 800 left. Someone else dies ont he other table, 11 players remian and we go to final table at 10.
Craig pays the 150 SB, looks down to find 22 (unsuited). Kenny is PISSED raises allin for $1500, Ralph plays his rush and raises allin, one caller, so Craig calls his 600 remaining.
3) Should he call go for it with the DUCKIES witht he same two idiots duking it out yet again? Remember 11 players left, one of the other table players is allin for his BB, AND a tradition at FWoods is that every puts up $10 for the 10th place player when the final table is formed.
Board comes AT23J, Kenny had AJ, Ralph had AT, and Craig wins the big pile with 222. Guy at the other table is out, welcome to the final table!!
Ok, they pick seats and Craig (Mr Shortstack) gets the big blind. Still 300-150-50.
BAD BEAT ALERT!!!
Craig looks down at AKdd yeah! All fold to NICE KENNY (as opposed to MEAN KENNY) and Kenny raises to $2K. ( he does NOT look at his cards) Blatent steal. Craig reraises allin for $his whole $2600 sumthin. Flops is A99 with 9d, turn is 8d, river is Jh. Kenny turns over T7o.
We go play blackjack and Craig mumbles for the rest of the trip about AK suited.
Against 2 players who have raised all-in and called all-in, there is too much chance that Craig is facing an overpair, making him a monster dog. Although losing 300 of 1100 hurts a lot, he should fold here and hope he can limp into the money. There is probably about 60,000 chips in play, so even if he triples up here, he is still a pretty short stack. And, I suspect he's gonna triple up here less than 15% of the time. Basically, he is risking 800 to win about 2800, a 7:2 shot. He needs to win 22% of the time for this to be a break-even play chipwise. However, he is almost in the money, meaning survival is more important than accruing chips. I would say he shouldn't call with any hand that he thinks has less than about a 40% chance of winning.
22 - Another fold, IMO. You indicate that Ralph, and somebody at the other table are both all-in. That means at least one of them goes broke roughly 3/4 of the time. When this happens, Craig wins $90 (at least 95% of the time, as you say, this deal is very traditional, and I've only seen it not happen once in 2 years). As further information for our audience, the FW payout schedule is very gradual until 3rd place. 9th is gonna pay slightly over $100 most of the time, and the payouts only go up gradually from there. So, finishing 7th or 6th is maybe only double the payout of 9th, and even if Craig wins with 22 he is still a very short stack, in danger of going broke every hand. Let somebody else go broke here, and he can get that $90 deal. If they both go broke, he gets 9th place money.
Tell Craig that he misplayed the AK. He should have called the raise, and then bet the flop. Kenny might have folded, even though it was only T600 more. A99 looks pretty bad for T7, as you know you're drawing, and maybe drawing slim/dead. Craig might even say "I have an A" as he bets, letting Kenny know that he needs to catch runner-runner to win. Kenny will frequently call, as he realizes he's getting 8:1 or better on that T600 call, but he MIGHT fold, in which case Craig doesn't get sucked out on. If he does call, it's no worse than Craig re-raising preflop, right?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
No Limit Hold'em Pokerpages Tournament. 41 players left. 6 players are left at my table. Within the next couple of hands, the table is likely to break-up and the blinds are about to double. Blinds are T25/50. Avg. stack is T1600. I have T1100. I hold A4s one seat to the left of UTG. UTG folds. I make it T150 to go. Button, with a stack of T3300, calls. Button is a loose player who has gotten lucky with previous hands. SB, also loose, but weaker, with T3000, calls. BB folds.
Flop. AKJ rainbow. I figured that if those two players had A with a high kicker, or a high pair, they would have raised me preflop. I only feared KJ and a made straight. SB Check. I bet T100 to try to get an idea of where I stood. Both called.
Turn. 8 with no flush draws. From the flop calls, I ruled out KJ, and figured one for a pocket low pair, and the other may have been chasing a gut-shot straight and a middle pair. I also didn't rule out that one could be slowplaying by letting me do the betting. SB Check. I bet T100 again since, if I got raised, I'd still have a recoverable stack of T650. Button called and SB folded.
River. 8, which gave me two pair. I bet 300, hoping for a call, but instead the button raised the remainder of my stack, T350. I figured I was either beat since the flop, or we had the same two pair (A8K), or he assumed I was chasing something and that I bet out of desperation, hoping for a fold. I called (I already committed myself). Results tomorrow.
How would you have played this hand? Analyzing pre-flop, is this a fold, raise ? X BB or raise all-in situation? When the blinds double to T50/100, I think this might be an all-in situation with the same stack size.
Note: I have never played an actual No Limit Tournament, and have been playing on PokerPages for a month and a half. I have advanced to Round 2 four of the past five weeks, actually four of six since I failed to make it this week. For the most part, I believe I am a good/solid player, but not ready to compete at or near the same level as a pro.
With A4s and one off UTG and with your stack size I would probably fold before the flop. The issue with raising is that anyone that calls you probably has a better hand. A lot of hands that could dominate your A4x will call. If I did decide to play your hand I would limp and fold to a raise.
On the flop there is 500 in the pot. You bet only 100. This is a no-limit tourney. You need to bet like no-limit. You are giving opponents a chance to go for the gutshot. I would bet more. A pot size bet of 500 is good. Maybe 300-400 would be okay as well. With a larger bet you can make a better read when they call the bet.
On the turn you have a similar situation. There is now 800 in the pot and you bet 100 into it. Your opponent is being given the odds to call with a large range of hands.
On the river when you are raised I wouldn't be surprised to see an 8 in his hand. Hopefully he only has an ace and not an AK or AJ.
Good luck and I am sure you will make it to round 2 again soon.
Ken Poklitar
If this was early in the tournament, or if I had a larger stack in such an early position, I would either limp and fold to a raise preflop, or not play the hand. Considering the situation (6 handed table, 4 players left to act...two of which are the blinds, I have a less than average stack, blinds are about to increase), it might be worth raising to at least try to steal the blinds.
I did not put the callers on A and overcard, or at least the button, since he would have reraised me on the flop...he often reraised the shorter stacks with any decent hand. If any of the players were paying attention, they would have known that I was a fairly tight player who didn't raise early unless I had a good hand (although this time was more to steal the blinds).
On the flop, I knew that if any of these loose players were chasing or had any high pair, they would have called any bet, even if I went all-in. So, a small bet would tell me where they stood...if I got raised, I would fold. If I got called, I could suspect that they were chasing something or had the second best hand or were slowplaying. A bet like 300-400 would commit me to the hand when I might not be the favorite. It wouldn't make these loose players fold and it would be tough to recover with half my stack gone. With a small bet, I would get their calls anyway, and I could escape (by checking the turn and folding to a bet) if a scary card (like a Q or 10) showed up on the turn. I applied the same logic on the turn when the 8 showed up.
After I called the buttons reraise on the river, he turned over Q10o for the straight. Not a smart call pre-flop, but he played the flop, turn and river quite well. So, understanding the loose callers a little better, would you still bet 300-400 on the flop? I would have made a bet like that if I was up against good or weak players.
So, I believe that on pre-flop, I should have folded and not try to steal the blinds. The only way I could have won that hand was if I went all-in preflop. If your stack was 10X the BB and faced the same situation (short-handed table, early position), what would you do? When would you consider going all-in? Thanks for your comments.
You should fold this hand pre-flop. All the trouble and decisions you faced were a result of playing the hand in the first place.
I discount suitedness in my up-front starting hands. I do not want to be chasing on a drawing hand. In the case of A,4s in early position, the only flop that would be worth playing is a flush or two pair. That is a very unlikely flop. Flopping a flush draw will not help. You will not get the odds you need.
Anyone coming in after you has at least an Ace with a better kicker. I don't even think about a hand like this. It is an automatic dump in early position.
They are right, fold preflop. But, don't just fold. Time out. That way, you waste some time, and increase the chances of losing a player, and breaking your table, BEFORE you must take the big blind.
In a real-world tourney, keep the same thought in mind. Especially if the post the order in which the tables will break, which many places do.
Once, I was UTG with a short-stack and 31 players at 4 tables. I pretended to think for almost 4 minutes before somebody put a clock on me. I then waited the entire minute and let the TD declare my hand dead. I only then released it to the dealer. Somebody went broke at the next table, and they gave us our new table and seat assignments. Worked out perfectly. Pretty annoying of me, I admit, but if you're playing to win you must take advantage of all legitimate loopholes, IMO. By legitimate, I mean without angle shooting (which I also admit is hard to define and to draw the line).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
When you see someone else doing this, don't waste anytime in calling the floorman to put a clock on him.
As a relative newcomer to low limits tournaments I would welcome comments on the following hand in a pot limit hold em tournament after the rebuy period. I am on the button on a 9 handed table my stack T1400 blinds are 100 each (although likely to go 200 by the time the blinds come back to me.)I have a pair of 9's.
Pre flop all fold to the player to my immediate right who calls. This player is a loose player who will get involved with straight & flush draws and back them aggresively, he has been hitting them all night and has a T5000 stack. I reckon he has nothing much otherwise I would looking at a pot sized raise. I raise T400. SB folds BB raises T1500, Loose Aggresive Folds. The raise represents about 40% of the BB's stack and I think he is a solid enough player.
What should I do?
Presumably he bet 1500 in total, as the pot would have been 1200 after he called your raise?
I think that you have to fold and wait for a better opportunity. Even if the BB would make this play with AK in addition to AA KK QQ. You are going to be a big dog more than 50% of the time and only a slight favorite under 50% of the time. Even though you are getting more than 2-1 the sums don't add up.
Thanks, yes BB bet 1500 in total. I called BB had a pair of Kings and I kicked myself all the way home!!
On the otherhand what influenced my decision was the fact that I was short stacked after my raise what I had in front of me would barely last another round. Do you think I made my stand a little bit to early in the game?
I think the original raise was ok, but unless you get reraised by a very loose player who could be raising with AQ, AJ, KQ any pair etc you've got to pack. Being short stacked is better than being out of the tourney.
I had the same thinking before I read the answers and results. The initial raise is good. If it causes the blinds to fold and you are heads up against the loose player, you are in decent shape.
When the blind raises, you have to put him on a hand that beats yours. I doubt a solid player will raise with anything but a high pair. A fold is called for.
.
.
I have never played pot limit but this situation seems like a no limit scenario so here is my opinion.
You have 900 left after your raise. There is 2300 in the pot at this point.
The question to me is what types of hands has he been re-raising preflop with? If you have only seen overpairs to what you have then you can fold with a good conscious. On the other hand if he has reraised with AK, AQ, KQ or even small/medium pairs, then it is a definite call. The other thing to note is that with only 900 and the blinds increasing to 200 you are short stacked.
So without knowing the raiser, it is a tough choice. Calling is probably the way to go.
Ken Poklitar
You fold because you are not getting the proper odds to play here, since he will (should) have an overpair here pretty often. Also, with T1000 left, even when the blinds go up to 200-200 you have enough to make a full raise.
So fold, and raise with the next good hand you find if you're the first one to come in. Be sure you find a good hand BEFORE you have to post the blinds of 200, or be prepared to make a big call with some pretty weak hands from the blinds. You can't afford to give up T400 out of T1000. Even if you have to raise UTG with a pretty weak hand like Q6.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Can anyone tell me where to get the schedules for these events?
Many thanks.
Oh no!! Not again!
did you check pokerpages.com
Ken Poklitar
WPO has a schedule at worldpokeropen.com, WSOP has a schedule at binions.com or in pokerpages.com under tournaments.
Early stages of rebuy tourney( a rebuy gets 500 chips). I have 1000 chips, blinds are 50/50.
Loose player limps everyone folds. I have AQ in the cutoff and raise 300. Comments?
The first blind (also quite loose) calls, loose player calls.
Flop is A93 rainbow. The first blind goes all in for 1500, loose player folds - what should I do?
I maybe simplistic..... but the raise is fine and you should move allin on the flop... as long as you can afford a rebuy... there really is no thought required here.
Cheers,
Keith
I agree with Keith, but the fact that the raiser is loose would worry me. He should not be in the pot with A9 or A3 but that is a possibilty although so is any Ace with the exception of AK or AA (certain reraise before the flop) but with top pair you have to call.
I probably only raise 200 but that doesn't make much difference.
On the flop with top pair and very good kicker, call and hope you don't see a set or two pair.
Ken Poklitar
I usually just bet the size of the pot in this situation. So, my bet would be 150.
When the loose blind player moved in his stack you need to think about how he bets. First of all, he knows that you have to have a good hand since you raised, and secondly, I don't think he's bluffing, because he knows you raised, right?
If he is a move in player, where he always bets his whole stack, I would call him. But, if he normally bets the size of the pot, I would fold. I would think that he has A9, A3, or 33.
Well, you know he's loose. What else do you know about him? If he had AK, would he have only called your raise, or would he have reraised? If he flops a set or 2 big pair, does he slowplay them? If so, how often? Finally, how likely is he to bluff the flop with less than a pair of As? Some players see this flop, and put you on KK or QQ, and decide to bluff. Does he ever do this? How would he play hands like AJ, AT, etc.?
Answer these questions, and the answer to your question should be pretty clear.
I know loose players against whom I would call without hesitation, and others who merit an easy fold.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I called with a great deal of trepidation and saw a set of nines - bad luck Mah the only hand you missed :)
As this was early in the tourney it probably wasn't that crucial, but after the rebuys I think I have to fold and mumble something about KK always walks into an Ace. Greg and Mah hit the nail on the head with the comments about the player. Although he is loose he is not insane. He is not a tricky player and would not be bluffing, so he thought he had the best hand. I suppose I persuaded myself that he could have been betting AT or AJ, and even if he had A3 I had outs.
Thanks for your comments everyone.
<<<<<>>>>><<<<<>>>>>
HEY ANY INFO,THOTS ABOUT SIDE ACTION, in tunica...place to stay still gold strike?
Mason makes a case for playing loose early in tourneys. (Poker Essays II) Basically because it's so important to have a lot of chips later when you would like to reduce the luck factor. He also notes that many players commonly play too tight in tourneys - rewarding looser play.
He stipulates he is addressing tournament formats where there are no rebuys.
My question: Would this advice to play loose be more or less advised if the the tourney permits unlimited rebuys until the break?
From my experience is to play your normal ring game strategy. You will not be stealing blinds in the early rounds, because they will usually defend them, plus they are not worth stealing yet.
Usually, players play too loose, especially in limit tourneys, so take advantage of loose play in the earlier stages of the tournament by playing solid.
When play starts to get tighter be willing to steal Target the blinds that are tight players.
If the tournament allows multiple rebuys, I will be extremely aggressive in no-limit tourneys, especially against the tight players. During the rebuy period you want to have the biggest stack at your table so you can intimidate your opponents when the play is tighter and they are waiting for that great hand. Plus, you will then have a decent amount of chips to blind away while you have a dry run of cards.
Mah - Of course you are right.
However, if you are normally a tight player, its fun to play loose in the early stages of an unlimited rebuy tournament. I mean, whee. I play all kinds of crap I would never play in a real game. It's like pulling the handle on a slot machine, generally a losing gamble, but fun. :o)
In addition, playing loose in the early stages of an unlimited rebuy tournament can work in your favor in at least two ways. (1) You may succeed in fooling at least some of the players at the table as to your true poker nature. Later when you bet with a solid hand, some of your opponents may tend to doubt you more than if you already showed them what a fine player you are. (2) If you get lucky, you will end up with lots of chips you couldn't get by playing tight. You can be in a very strong position when the re-buy period ends. You can have enough chips to be the table bully and steal blinds when stealing blinds does matter.
Depends on what it costs to re-buy and how much you can afford to spend to have some fun (and gain a bit of an edge).
Just my opinion.
Buzz
If you've been playing loose for an hour or 2, you will not be able to steal the blinds very effectively, even if you have a big stack. Everybody knows you're loose, so they will defend more liberally, not loose, even though you have the stack to break them, IME. The above is certainly true when I'm the big blind. I don't tighten up in the middle stages just because the raiser has a bigger stack then me. I still need to win chips at this stage, so I welcome loose action, no matter what your stack size.
I prefer to play tight early, and develop a tight image. Because my opponents are often playing loose, I'm getting the best of it when I do enter a pot, and I often have an above-average stack without gambling it up. AND, everybody knows how tight I am, which allows me to steal the blinds more easily later on, when doing so is more important.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
These posts in no way address my original question. Apparently Mason's loose-is-good premise is not a popular one.
Nick - What are you talking about, "These posts in no way address my original question."? Of course they do!
Here is your question, copied from your first post. "My question: Would this advice to play loose be more or less advised if the the tourney permits unlimited rebuys until the break?"
You got three answers. As I understand them:
Mah replied, "No,"
Buzz (me) replied, "Yes,"
Fossilman replied, "No."
Perhaps the answer to your question depends on your particular motivation for playing in a tournament. Perhaps you think your reason for playing in a tournament is obvious, but honestly, it isn't. In truth, my motivation for entering a low-limit tournament has not always been to win or to make money in that particular tournament. For me, low-limit rebuy tournament settings have sometimes provided a good place to test different playing strategies.
And, as I suggested in my original post, playing more loosely than normal - in low-limit re-buy tournaments - is sometimes fun (at least for me).
Fossilman, in response to my post, suggested that my other reason (similar to Mason's) for playing more loosely than normal, (ie. so as to build up a big stack), would not help me in stealing blinds later. He makes a good point.
Sorry you were disappointed in our answers. What did you expect?
Buzz
Greg - Thanks for your response. Point well taken.
Buzz
Buzz,
I agree with Greg on this issue. You are with the players at your first table in a tournament for approximately two hours. It's the first fifteen minutes of your play that gives players an impression of how you play. I try to build a solid tight image. When the blinds are small I don't defend them during the rebuy period and I often muck my small blind. This tight image helps me latter in the tournament. After the rebuy period, you can steal from the players that tighened up with two blanks in your hand. This is due to the image you created. But, if they perceive you as a loose cannon, you are going to get called when you don't want to be called.
I agree with you and Greg. I think it is best to play tight early and gain a certain image that may help later.
There are certain players that are very loose early but tighten up significantly after the rebuy is over. If you don't realize that these players exist then you may make a call against them that shouldn't be done. In the Saturday NL tourney I play, there are some players that will go all-in with K7o before the rebuy period is over but once the rebuy period is over you need to be careful with their raises.
The point being if you are going to be loose early you do need to be much tighter later on. You will get called so you won't be able to bluff much but you can catch players that don't know you are a different player.
Ken Poklitar
I have read the essay, but I have forgotten exactly what it says. If it says that you should play loose in that you should play every +EV situation no matter how marginal, then that's OK. If it says loose in that you should play some spots where you might win a big pot but which are -EV in terms of chips won/lost, then I disagree. I don't think it said the latter, but my memory pretty much sucks.
Play a good, solid game during the rebuy period. Don't be worried about losing your entire stack, as long as the play looked like a +EV play when you made it. If the maniac who raises all-in every hand raises again, don't fold 88 because you're not a big enough favorite. Being any type of favorite at all is good enough. That type of loose is fine during the rebuy period. If the maniac raises as usual and you have J6o, playing this hand is too loose, even though you would win almost half the time against a random hand. You need a hand with some edge, even if it's not a big edge.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
which are the best tournments to play on paradise ? I mean 100$ buy-in are more tought than 10$ buyin ' tournment .I have stopped to play standard game on paradise and I play only tournment and LLO8 . 20$ and 30$ , seem to be the most valuable limit . (repost on internet poker 'forum)
Well, the vig is essentially the same except for the $5 and $100 events. Always avoid the $5 unless you expect to lose and are just having fun. The reduction in vig for the $100 is pretty small, so those are no bargain in that respect.
I've played mostly $50 events. The play is almost as weak as the 20 and 30, and I therefore have a higher hourly earn playing $50. I probably will have a higher hourly earn in the $100 events, but certainly not double, since there is a noticeable reduction in overly loose play in those events. They're still eminently beatable, however. As soon as my online bankroll builds up past $2500 or so, I will probably stick to the $100 events.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I just signed up for Paradise a little over a week ago. I'm ahead in tournaments, but not doing well in the "live" games. I need to only play tournaments. Breaking down the tournaments, I'm ahead in the $100 and $50, but the few times I've played the smaller ones, I'm losing money. The $50 ones seem to best fit my game. The $100 ones are very agressive and the smaller ones you can't buy a pot.
A comment about the "live" games, I've read it before and I've seen it first hand.....there are more quads and other big hands here than I've ever seen in real life or at other internet sites (I've only played IRC, PokerPages and Pokerspot). I believe there is a problem with their dealer program. Maybe they programmed it that way thinking players enjoy getting big hands more often.
Another thing I wonder about, my first day on, it was almost like I couldn't lose a hand. I was hitting every flop and making every draw. Then after that, I was hitting nothing in the live games. I wonder if they program it to where you win early, so a new player keep their interest and continues playing.
And finally, the games, both live and tournaments, seem softer on the weekends than during the week. I guess you get more casual players on the weekend and a bigger mix of serious players during the week.
JohnnyD
I don't know how you guys get so much free time to play all this stuff. Anyway, I guess it's just like a real cardroom where the games are better in the evening and weekends.
Hi, Ken --
That was a pretty good showing at the Round 2 pokerpages tourney yesterday, if a congratulatory message for a "so close and yet so far" showing isn't out of line.
Am I right in guessing that you were getting cards almost as bad as/worse than mine? It seemed that once it got down to two tables, we were playing far less hands than others at the table. Also noted were your (what appeared to me to be) successful steal attempts. I think that if there's one reason in particular why my ring game remains lousy, it's because I just can't seem to pick the right moment for a steal. (Sigh.)
I busted out shortly after you did, in seventh -- also "so close and yet so far" -- but I had a bit of luck with my all-in hands, winning twice with better hands and twice with worse hands, IIRC.
I'm heading for Foxwoods this weekend, so even if I was to requalify in Round 1 I'm not sure I'll be around to play a Round 2 tournament.
If you make it to Round 2, I'll be rooting for you. Good luck.
Mike
Thanks I guess :)
I couldn't get a big hand the final 3 or 4 tables. It was a lot of steal raises and the few times I had a reasonable pair I had no takers.
I just don't understand how Chris Ferguson can win with A9o against AQo and I can't?
I will say that there still is some pretty poor play even in the round 2 games. On Friday night when I ended up in 35th, I made some obvious desperate raises with barely any chips and no one called twice :) I finally lost with TT against AQo. Yesterday there was one player who had 10k when we got to 2 tables. He seemed to play every hand and by the time we got to the final table he was down to 6k and he only had that much because he won a nice pot. In my final hand he limped and normally I wouldn't raise allin with A9o against a limper but I knew he would fold. Unfortunately the BB with a huge stack wasn't so nice to me.
Ken Poklitar
I just don't understand how Chris Ferguson can win with A9o against AQo and I can't?
He was lucky.
My first "live" NL tourney. Winner take all, start with T4000 with 25/50 blinds. 40 players. Just a few hands into the tourney, I have TT in cutoff. One mid-position limper I raise to 300. Both blinds and limper call.
Q: Would a flat call have been better? Fold? Raise more?
Flop 853 rainbow. Checked to me I bet 1k.
Q: Good bet?
Samll blind goes all-in. Never played against him before, middle aged guy wearing TOC shirt.
Q: What do you do? Decide then read on...
I thought if he flopped a set the best play would be to call and see if I bet again on the turn. But as I said I'm a NL rookie. I tought he put me on AK and was trying to buy what was now a large pot for so early on. I also figured with a bigger overpair than me he would have re-raised before the flop or at least bet out on the flop. I was worried he could have had JJ or QQ, but I called to see his 88. Any critique appreciated, how badly did I botch this hand? Or if someone flops a set against your overpair is it just bad luck? I think in hindsight I didn't do anything really dumb until I called the all-in bet. Opinions?
.
JJ & TT are tricky pairs for me. With 99 or less, I normally just limp with one limper. With TT or better, I normally raise. Of course with TT you really only want to get one caller at the most. I am wondering if it is better to raise a bit more preflop after one limper. Normally I raise 3xBB. With one limper I would raise 4xBB. In your case you raised 5x. It might be better to raise a bit more with TT with one limper. Make it 400 to go.
On the flop with 1200 in the pot, your bet of 1000 is good to me.
Now when someone goes all-in for another 2700, you need to decide what he has. I would expect an overpair to the flop or a set. The best you could expect would be A8s or 99. Most other hands would have you beat.
Ken Poklitar
Everything before the last call is fine. I would have raised to T200 instead of 300, but that is a minor matter and since you still got 3 callers you obviously didn't overbet the pot in the sense of shutting people out. Flop bet is fine, a check would be a mistake with 16 overcards that you're afraid of seeing on the turn.
Now, you're raised. You are correct in thinking that many players wouldn't check-raise so much with such a powerhouse of a hand. Many would play it slower and not give you such a good chance at folding. For example, if you have AK or the like, no way you call his check-raise, but you might have bet the turn whether you caught a pair or not. Also, he's shutting out the 2 players in between, who might call with hands like A8 or 99 or even 77, thinking they might be ahead.
So, maybe he was being tricky by not be too tricky, or he just always play very aggressively, and doesn't set passive traps. However, if you read him for A8 or a bluff, then you have to call. The trick is to NOT misread him.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Here's my answers to your questions:
Q: Would a flat call have been better? Fold? Raise more?
Maybe call, never fold, a raise more likely. If you think that the blinds will call a raise anyway you may just want to limp-in. In this situation I would just bet $150. I think this is a good enough raise at this point to limit the amount of callers. On the flop you need to think about what types of hands these players will call a raise with. Since, there was no flush draw, I would suspect a small set. Another reason why I said to limit the bet to $150 is it will be easier on your bankroll to shut a draw out on the flop. By, making it 300. You now have 1200 in the pot so you will not be able to shut out the flush, because you've made the pot too big. The biggness of the pot will make you feel committed to it. If you would have bet $150 the pot would be only $600. At this point I would only bet half the size of the pot to shutout any gunshot hands. With a smaller bet he may not raise you with a set, he may call giving you a chance to make a bigger set.
I suspect the only reason why you called the all-in bet was that you felt committed to the pot after putting $1300 in it. This hand is a clear fold after the small blind goes all-in.
This occurred in a pot limit tournament and seemed like a crucial hand at the time.
I have T3800 in chips midway through a tournament, and the blinds are 100-100. I am dealt AK in late position. There is an early limper, and the next player raises to T500. This player seems to be one of the stronger players on the table from what I have seen, I think he is solid.
Everyone folds to me, and I call, as does the early limper. The flop comes down KT3 rainbow. They both check to me and I bet 800, the early limper folds, then the original raiser goes all in for an additional 1400. I sit there and think and then fold, figuring he must have me beat.
Any comments would be appreciated, thanks.
Andy.
Andy,
I think it's very hard to release this hand once you flop something to it. The way I play AK against a raiser is to move all-in. This way I don't have to guess, but I am taking a risk. Usually, you don't have to worry about a pair of aces or kings because you reduce the number of combinations left with the hand you hold. If its a solid player and he has a pair of tens he may lay it down depending on his impression of you. Then you don't have to guess.
Andy,
I would think you would probably be ahead most of the time in this spot. The most reasonable thing he might have that beats you on the flop is TT. Your in front of mostly everything else. Go ahead and call. And your not going broke.
But why not re-raise pre-flop. Likely as not you lose the limper, and have a fair chance of winning right there, given the chance the raiser has AA, KK are pretty slim. (Obviously this gives up your chance to get away from the hand on the flop)
Or make a pot size bet on the flop. He may well read your smaller bet as weakness, say a weak K.
I think you have to be prepared to back your cards with chips when you have a good pocket and a good flop. If you can't play AK post flop with KTxr, what are you waiting for? I think you have to move in here when you hit the flop. Especially when you have your opponent covered.
Comments?
Cheers
Dave Veitch
There are lots of ways to play your hand, and each of them may be correct, depending upon all the circumstances.
Your call is fine, but if you expected one or more of the blinds/limpers to call, then I don't like it. I'd rather this pot be heads-up, so you should raise if that's what it's going to take. If you expected a fold, then just calling is probably an OK play.
More often than not, I would have raised preflop, however. Given your stack size (3800) and his (2700?), I would make it 1000 total preflop. Then, when the flop comes, if he checks to you it's time to bet him all-in, even if you missed. If you missed and he bets into you, you probably need to fold, absent tells. However, if he's aggressive enough to bet into you on the flop, and be bluffing, he probably reraises preflop anyway (which you call). If he's really tricky and tough, he might bluff the flop with an airball hand that you're beating like AQ. Have to know your player.
Or, you make a maximum reraise preflop, essentially putting him all-in if he calls, and you don't fold postflop no matter what (if this were NL HE, you'd reraise him all-in preflop, but you can't do it here).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Just got knocked out of the Monday NL tourney at Lucky Chances today. I felt that I had a real good chance to get to the final table, but got a big hand snapped and then it just kinda went downhill from there. I have a couple of hands that I would like comments on.
Hand 1
Blinds are 40/80 and I have about 1000. UTG raises all-in for 270. Player to my right calls and I have 55. I decide to fold. Two other players call and of course the flop comes a 5 and I would have dragged a nice pot of over 1000. (There was some action after the flop because an Ace also hit.) Even if we assume that a 5 doesn't flop and I lose the hand, was my preflop fold correct here?
Hand 2
Blinds are 50/100. I'm in the BB with about 1200. Everyone folds to the button who calls 100. I have AA and decide to just smooth call hoping to trap. BB calls and the flop comes:
K 9 4 rainbow
I bet 300 and BB calls and button folds. The BB seemed happy with the flop, so I put him at least a king. Turn:
K 9 4 (J)
I'm not sure where I am, so I decide to check. BB bets 300 and I call. River:
K 9 4 J (4)
I bet all-in because I just can't put BB on a 4. BB has me covered by about 300 and calls. He turns over K7o and I drag a nice pot and I think I'm the chip leader at the table.
Okay guys, time to flame me. How poorly did I play my AA? In retrospect, I felt that I played them ok because I actually doubled up my stack. If I played more aggressively, BB may not have given me much action after the flop (or even call a preflop raise). Would anyone just limp with AA? How about my actions on the flop, turn, and river.
Hand 3
This one killed me. It's the last hand of the third round. Blinds are 50/100 (I think) and I have over 2500 (should be chip leader at my table). UTG goes all-in for about 300. Player to my right calls. I have TT and just call. Two other players behind also call. At this point, should I have raised more with TT? I'm pretty sure that if I raised to something like 800, everyone would have folded and I would have been heads up with the all-in. Anyways, the flop comes:
10 4 2 rainbow (a perfect flop for me)
Player to my right goes all-in for about 900! Of course I call! (Question: should I have just called hoping to get more calls from behind or put all in chips in the pot at this point?) Next player contemplates for a long time and then mucks. Interestingly, he later told me that he had JJ and put me on TT, AA, or KK because I called the all-in bet so quickly. Other player behind also folds.
Player to my right says he got caught bluffing and opens up A5c. I show my top set. The turn comes a 9c, putting two clubs on the turn. The river comes a 3, giving him the gutshot straight and my stack is almost cut in half.
I understand that this is just a bad beat, but could I have done anything different here? If my hand holds up, I have over 4000 and will be a serious contender.
Hand 4
Oh yes, my last hand. I have about 1400 and blinds are 75/150. I have AhJh UTG and raise to 300. Two players behind me call. The flop comes:
9c 9d Jc
I bet 300 and both players call. The turn is a blank. I read one of the players for a flush or straight draw and the other one for a weaker Jack. I bet another 300. First player folds and second player goes all-in. He has me well-covered as he is the same guy who beat my TT with A5. I only have about 500 or so left and call. River doesn't come a Jack and the guy shows me As9s and I'm out.
Would you guys have played my hand here any differently? Is my raise of AJs ok or do you think it's better to just muck because of my bad position? As for my betting after the flop, I felt that I had to be aggressive here and hope that I had the best hand.
Thanks in advance for your comments on any of these hands.
Hand 1) If you call an UTG raise with 55 you won't get as close to the final table as you did. You were correct to muck.
Hand 2) I assume you are the SB since you claim you are the BB and one of the other players is also the BB. I am not a big fan of not raising preflop with AA. I would raise to 300 and hope to only get one caller. In your case I think your flop bet of 300 is good. I might go all-in on the turn. There is enough money in the pot to try to win the pot now. It really depends on your read of the player. Do you think he has KJ or QT?
Hand 3) With an UTG all-in and a limper who does not have piles of chips, I am not sure if a raise would have changed the results. It is a bad beat. Next hand! I do think only calling his 900 bet is best. At that point with top set and no flush draw you would like another caller or two.
Hand 4) You can read the thread last Monday about play AJs UTG. This situation is a bit different because your stack is 10xBB and the blinds are next. If the blinds are not going to be going up for a while then I probably muck the hand. If the blinds are about to go up then I think it is best to raise a more significant amount. Raising to 300 is asking to be called. I might bet 1/2 my stack showing opponents that I am committed to this pot. In your scenario, when you bet 300 on the flop and get 2 callers, you need to put someone on a 9.
Ken Poklitar
I don't muck the AJs. I raise to T500, and hope everybody folds. If I get called, I bet my last T900 pretty much no matter what flops. I'd have to flop at least top 2 pair to slowplay, with no straight or flush draws to boot.
If I trap with AA preflop, it is almost always against only 1 opponent who has raised, not against a limper and keeping in a blind for free. That blind hand could have been K4, n'est pas?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg, it's
n'est-ce pas
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince), french-canadian tutor to the poker community ... :-)
Lets see if I'm getting anywhere with my understanding of this game.
Hand 1 - An easy fold. You have to flop a five to continue in the hand.
Hand 2 - Calling is fine (from SB, I presume you meant), as long as you don't get caught for your whole stack with an unfavourable flop. You get a good flop which likely makes a top pair. But why not bet the turn as well. Are you folding if he bets? No. If you're going to call you should bet. I bet all-in on the turn.
Hand 3 - Call seems ok to me, especially if players remaining to act don't have enough left to blow you out with a big raise. A great flop. With the 900 all-in, that's ~2100. More than enough already. Raise all-in and get rid of the other players. You had the best of it, but it didn't work out.
Hand 4 - Raising UTG with AJs a suspect play, and by raising 300 you are going to have a hard job to pass if you catch anything on flop. You are not in any desparate chip trouble, so I would pass this hand, and save myself the bother of calling a bet to see the trip nines.
Feel free to slate any of that you wish. You never know, someone might even agree with some of it.
Cheers
Dave Veitch
Remember the old talked about "Zee rule" when a player in a tournament game intentionally flashes a card to discourage an opponent from betting? Well it happened in the TROP's invitational tournament today.
Heads-up stud: player in 8 seat showing 3 hearts goes "all in" for $375 raise on 6th st against player in 3 seat who showed pair of aces and had mede the 1st bet. Player 8 flashes 1 of his down cards, another heart before the 3 seat decided whether or not to call the raise.
Floor person declared the seat 8 hand dead. Turns out he had a flush and lost the hand to the Aces (do not know what else the AA had)
I was in a limit holdem tourney at the final table. There were 5 players left and I was the short stack. I had just paid the $2000 small blind and we were in the next round of the $4000 blind. The person UTG was one of the chip leaders and went all in after my blind. I had QJ suited. I thought for a while and decided to go all in as well.
Did I make a bad decision? Should I have waited for a better hand or hope one of the others got knocked out before my next blinds?
The UTG had Ax off suit and an A came so I was out. Thanks for the input!!
I really don't understand your situation. Are you the button or the big blind? Please explain again.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I was the big blind.
No limit tourney, 27 players, $120 buy-in with unlimited rebuys ($25), add on $25, starting bankroll $150 in chips.
Level 4, no rebuys allowed, I have about $750, I'm 3 seats on the left of the blinds (10 players). Opposition is quite loose (chip-leader is the first time he plays..)
Blinds: $20-$40, UTG limps, chip-leader(it seems to have a great luck) raise $180, I'm behind him and I'm dealt K-K and I decide to only call (Why only call? 2 reasons: first, I fear an idiot can call my raise with something like A-x---it happended too many times in this tourney, second, but less important, I fear Aces in the chip-leader hole), so I decide that whether the flop doesn't contain an ace or some threatining cards, I fire an all-in. All fold except the small blind and UTG limper who call.
Flop comes 3c-6s-7s.
SB fires a $350 bet, UTG folds, chip-leader calls. I decide that with my kings I'm gone (SB could hit a straight with 4-5, or more likely he has 6-7 and I have not the KIng of spades)and so I fold. Turn is a 10 off, check-check, river is an 8 of spades, check-check. Chip-leader wins with pocket 9s (hitting a straight) and didn't bet fearing a flush. SB had 6-7 off (two pair on the flop).
My questions:
- Even my fold on flop was good (kings finished 3rd hand) I have done a mistake without raising pre-flop? (I was almost sure 100% that chip-leader would have called my preflop all-in with his $2000)?
- Second, did I made a mistake folding on the flop? (even as you have read I finished with 3rd best hand?)
No doubt, after 3-4 hands after this hand, I was out of the tourney.
Comments appreciated
Marco
The actual results in this particular hand are meaningless. What's important is the situation pre-flop. I think you bet all in at that time because you want "some idiot" to call with Ax or 6-7 off. It may feel better to avoid confrontation and wait and see the flop, but then when he misses he'll get away lightly. You are lessening their mistake by allowing them to see the flop with weak hands. Also, you can't be a 100% sure they won't fold when challenged.
Go all-in preflop, be glad he called with 99, and sad that he managed to get lucky and win.
If you just call here, you're asking other players to come in. What if the flop had been AQ2? Now, one of them may bluff you out of the pot when you're way ahead. Since any reasonable reraise is over half your stack, just go all-in.
In the long run, this play will yield superior results than just calling.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Preflop you need to re-raise. KK is the 2nd best starting hand. If you are up against AA then that is tough luck. You would like to be headsup against the original raiser.
With 750, I think you need to re-raise all-in. If you had more chips then you could re-raise 400 to better define your opponents hand. If he only calls then when the flop hits, you go all-in. If he re-raises all-in then you need to decide if he is raising with AA or trying to make a move on you.
Ken Poklitar
We are playing the tears system. 1)We are at level two of a $225 buyin $20000 guaranteed tournament. The blinds are T5 and T15. I am in third position with pocket 4's. First position limps as do I and three others behind me. The flop is Q94 different suits. It is checked around on the flop as I am trying to trap. A Jack comes on the turn and the first position player bets T35. I don't like this undersized bet so I only call. The last card is a Q. The player bets T125. This leaves him T300 and me T500 if I call. I call. He shows me KT for the straight. I win with a small full house. What do you think of the play of this hand? 2) The blinds are T25 and T50. Everyone has been opening for around T175. Out of the blue a pretty good player opens in second position for T1100 allin. I am in the SB holding pocket T's. What is my play? I have T1325 when the hand begins. #The blinds are T100 and T200. An excellent player opens in first position for T350. I have T1200 when this hand begins. I am in the SB with poctet Q's. What is my play?
44 - bet the flop. Any 8, T, J, or K makes a possible straight. That's 16 cards, about 1/3 of the deck. Since half of these complete gutshots, make them pay. Once you make your hand on the river, I think you should have risked more. Even though you will lose to a bigger full pretty often, it will be much less than half the time you are called, IMO. It's too early in the tournament to give up an edge in favor of safety.
TT - fold. You might be way ahead of a smaller pair, but over the range of hands he might hold here, I think your edge is either very small or negative. If I knew the guy, I could judge, or if I were there to read him. I put him on a hand like JJ that doesn't want to sweat any overcards after the flop.
QQ - 350? Doesn't he have to make it at least 400? Anyway, I raise all-in most of the time here. He might have AA or KK, but more likely than not he doesn't. You're still pretty far from the money, right? If you were real close, you might want to play the hand more conservatively.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
1) I agree I should have bet on the flop. I do not necessarily agree that I should have raised on the end. The hand my opponent held is the only possible hand with which he could have called a raise that I could beat. 2) A pair of JJ is precisely the hand I put her on. JJ 40% QQ 30% 99 20% A range of other hands 10%. I folded but this hand bothered me enough for me to post it here. I do not know what Beverly held. 3) I raised allin and lost to KK.
A situation came up during the online PokerPages tournament today regarding play of small pairs 4-8 from early position.
I personally follow a set of guidelines when coming in early that if i cannot raise preflop i will muck the hand. While 80% of the time i will muck these small pp's the remaining 20% i will raise with them as more or less a steal attempt (full table).
My friend limped UTG with pp5 and claimed he would have folded to a raise, my argument was that it invited too many other hands into the pot preflop and his horrible position would make the hand tough to play postflop.
In a NL tourney which method of play is more correct? I know structure and blinds etc will have some impact on the decisions, so assuming entire table has average size stacks and we are in middle stages of play, also has anyone worked up the EV on raising in EP vs Limping?
Thanks in advance...
If limping only takes a small portion of your stack, and you figure to get paid off pretty often when you flop a set (definitely true on pokerpages), then limping in with small pairs is correct. If you will get raised (and have to fold) very often, then don't limp, as you're just throwing away those chips (since the raise is coming so often).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Early in a tournament when the blinds are low compared to my stack I will limp with small pairs. If I get raised I will muck. I want other players to limp as well. If I don't flop a set I am going to muck so the more players the better.
I don't like raising with small pairs in early/middle position because the only players that will call you will either have 2 overcards or an overpair.
Ken Poklitar
I agree with Greg and Ken and I will add this:
Small pocket paire are the EASIEST, mmmhhhh... I'll repeat it again, the EASIEST hands to play on the flop. You either flop a set or you dump. If you do flop a set then, IMO, it really does not matter what you position is, well, it does, but your hand is so strong that it's easy to play whatever your position is.
It's a good strategy to just limp if the table is usually passive. But if you are likely going to get raised, then you should dump preflop.
BTW, I very rarely raise with small pairs preflop. I don't understand why you don't want to invite everybody to join the party, in fact you should welcome it. That way, you'll be getting big implied odds when you flop your set, and that's what you want. When you raise, you are going to get 2-3 callers (on average) and this is the worst possible scenario for you.
One more point, this applies when you aren't short stack. When you do need to make a move, then going all-in with a small pair is definitely a good play.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
At what point stack vs. blinds percentage wise, would it be best to go to either raise or fold strategy? And the possibility of stealing the blinds outweigh the odds of flopping a set?
I know the point has been discussed as to where an all-in bet is best on any hand that could possibly be the best, yet with small pp's when do you either muck or move and eliminate the limp from your decision making due to fact it is not worth the cost of the blinds? or do you even?
Thanks again for all the responses...
I was playing the hand that zzzzzz referred to in this post. I had been at the table for a while, and had a pretty good read on the players. Mostly loose/passive and quite a bit of chasing. I'm UTG w/pp5. I flat call. My thinking at the time was straightforward (I believe?!) Blinds are 25/50, I have 970 in chips. This is a no-brainer call. I expect a number of limpers behind me (given the texture of the table) If rr'd, I can easily lay down a pp5's without impact to my stack. If I raise UTG with that hand, I believe the only callers I get will be those who have me beat. My SOLE goal here is to see the flop as cheaply as I can. IF it is threatening in ANY way, I'm first to act and can check and lay it down to any bet without further impacting my stack. If I am fortunate enough to hit the set on the flop.....well, thats a different story! My expectations are met when there are four callers behind me.
The Flop comes 95x, rainbow....ka ching!!! I check: there is a 50/100 (?) bet, two callers, and I smooth call. Turn is another rag that 2 suits the board and gives a double gutshot straight draw. I check again. One bettor for 200: rest fold: I rr 200 and he calls. River was (I believe) a non-threatening paint card. He checks: I bet.....ka-ching! I made a nice pot, but the important factor to me here was not EV. I believe the overriding priority was playing the table/players and taking advantage of what is normally a bad (UTG) position. What do you think?
In the round 1 poker pages tournies I've seen plenty of hands with several limpers and no raise. If this has been happening at the table and the blinds are still small, I see nothing wrong with limping with small pairs from any position. If there's a sizable raise pre-flop you get out cheap. If you see the flop, you either flop a set or you don't. You may also stick around after the flop if say you have 55 and the flop is 346 and there is no heavy flop betting. The key is small blinds and little pre-flop raising make conditions for this play ok, IMHO.
What is a freezeout tournament?
A tourney with no rebuys.
Ken Poklitar
I was in a low buy in NL HE tournament at the weekend and thought I would post a hand or two.
The details: 41 runners, 600 chips to start with, blinds starting at 10,25 and doubling every 30 mins, rebuy during first 75 minutes to get another 600 chips. You can only rebuy if you are out of chips (as is compulsory in the UK). Pays out top 9 with 45% of pool for first and very little for 9th.
About 40 mins after the rebuy period ended there are 21 left (3 tables of 7). The blinds are 100, 200 (due to rise in next 5 mins or so) and the average stack is about 3000. I have 900 left and get A9s in middle position. 3 folds to me and I raise all in. Is this too aggressive?
My reasoning was that the blinds are due to rise soon and I would then be very short stacked. So I have to get some chips. I have a very good chance of stealing the blinds and with any smaller raise I would be pot committed anyway.
How much would the nature of the table change the decision with this hand?
Thanks in advance for any advice.
Daniel
I think your decision is fine. You only have a few more hands until you hit the blinds. This is probably your last chance to raise and win the blinds without being called by someone because you are shortstacked.
I suspect you were called by a better ace and lost. Don't sweat it,
Ken Poklitar
You made the correct play.
You need chips. In 5 minutes or so, you'll only have about 2x the BB.
You want to be the aggressor not a caller. This is what you were... Perfect...
I guess you were called by a bigger ace.
No second guessing here, good play.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Last week I was in a situation which I wasn't sure how to play. It's early in a NL tourney and everyone folds to me in the SB. I have 99 and the the BB is fairly passive (calls a lot of hands), but plays decently post-flop. We both have good sized stacks (in relation to the blinds). I was planning to raise for sure, but wasn't sure as to how much. My thinking was that if I raise 3x the BB and get called, he is probably holding at least some overcards. Also, I'm in bad position. What do I do if the flop comes something like K Q 7? Not really knowing how to play this, I decide to just go all-in and take his blind, which I did. How do you guys play this situation when you have an above average hand (but not super premium) in the SB after everyone folds to you?
Thanks in advance for your comments.
The problem with going all-in, is you will win the BB 90% of the time. The 10% of the time he calls, he will have you beat most of the time.
I would raise 3x the BB.
If he calls the raise and an Ace flops you are probably in trouble. It is probably best to bet out on the flop whatever flops. If you get called and there are overcards you are probably beat.
Ken Poklitar
I also raise to 3x, and then try to play well postflop.
If the flop comes KQ7, and you figure that must have hit him, check. Sometimes, the flop will be KQ9, and you check-raise. Other times, you bet out and fold if raised. Etc. Mix it up, and try to make better decisions than he does.
There is no way to avoid having to just play good poker. The all-in move (when the blinds are small) is usually a big sign to me, a sign that the player doesn't know what they're doing. They become a target.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Yikes! When the money is deep is exactly when you *don't* want to go all in here. Sure, you'll almost always win the blinds, but you'll lose your entire stack anytime you're called.
I agree with Ken; normally I'd make a 3x raise here. You'll win the blinds the same percentage, but risk a lot less when you run into a monster.
Given your assessment of your opponent, I'd at least consider only calling here and betting any flop with 1 or 0 overcards. Middle pairs are difficult to play out of position.
-Oz-
Pokerpages round 1 tourney that just went from limit to no-limit. Blinds are 2-5, and I have Ad8s in late position. I call the $5 in late position after 3 limpers, and one player behind me calls, as does the SB. BB checks.
Is this a bad call? I'd never make it in a limit game, and maybe the fact that this isn't real money influenced me. But I was also influenced by wanting to play a little looser in the early stages so I could build a big stack to help me out later. Having played several of these tourneys and having previously qualified for the 2nd round, I figured that without a decent size stack when the blinds get big, I have only luck to save me.
Back to the action.
Flop comes As Ah Ks. The blinds muck out of turn, and three others check to me. I bet the pot, which is $35. The player behind me calls, as does the player immediately to my right. Of course, I have zero read on anyone.
Turn is Ts, not my favorite card. The first player checks, so i bet $70 into the $140 pot. I won't go into my reasoning here (not that there was too much there!), but you can fire away on this play. Obviously I was hoping both would fold, but the player behind me didn't. The player to my right did.
River brings the 4h. I bet all-in, which was about $200, and the other guy, who has me covered, calls. I figure I'm beat when he calls, but I'll withhold the results for now.
About the all-in bet, I figured if I check, he'll push it in, and I'll call, given the usual loose play of the pokerpages players, so it's better to do it myself, giving him the chance to fold. Now maybe I should legitimately consider folding if I check and he bets me all in, but I'm not too sure about that one.
And as an aside, even if the preflop call was too loose with Ad8s, this same hand could have come up if I had held Ad8d, so I'm mostly interested in flop and later street play. My take on this is that I should have taken my foot off the gas on the turn.
Hammer away!
Bill
The player behind me had AcJd, so i was outkicked, and that was it for me for the day.
Once the Spade came I would become more passive. Odds are you are outkicked anyway.
Derrick
Pre-flop, I would fold A8o but I would call with A8s.
Flop, I like your bet of the pot. It is too bad the player to your left called.
Turn. As you stated the 10s is really bad. You are now behind to any flushes, straights and better aces. I think I might make a slightly smaller bet then you did. I would increase my previous bet but not double it. Maybe 50.
River. I think there is a less than 50% chance that you are ahead. If you check which shows weakness your opponent goes all-in. If you go all-in then if you are beat your opponent calls. If you bet a small amount like 70, then it is possible that unless your opponent has a full house that he will only call and not put you all-in.
In these pokerpages events, it would be tough to fold on the river since players may have an even weaker ace then you do.
Off to read the result,
Ken Poklitar
You bring up a good point, why did I go all in on the river? Hmmmm... Lemme think. I didn't consider betting something smaller! Not smart on my part.
In hindsight betting 70 or so makes MUCH more sense than betting all in where if I get a call I'm most likely gonna be put out of the tourney. After all, if he calls my all in and loses he'll be severely crippled, and I think most people want to hang around a little bit longer than I did. Basically I'm setting myself up for the old only-call-if-I-got-you-beat thing.
Still learning these NL tourneys,
Bill
This is the 6th tourney I have ever played in.
I have T2600. Blinds are 500-1000, and betting is NL. There are 7 players left and I have the 3rd smallest stack. UTG, the chip leader with about T7500 or so, has been extremely aggressive. Earlier in the tourney, the button had AKo and raised 3x time blinds, and Chip Leader re-raised the button so he would be all-in. Button thought and mucked. Leader showed KK.
During the break, Leader and I talked about that hand, and he said that he never re-raised without a high pocket pair. Him saying that led to my last decision in the tourney.
Leader (UTG) makes it T2000 to go. One cold caller calls all-in. I re-raise all in in the cutoff with AK hearts. My thinking was that since he told me that he would not raise without a large pair, that he may be mixing up his play a bit, and trying to push around the smaller stacks. It was also his 3rd preflop raise in a row, and no one had called the other two. I thought I may be able to triple my stack.
Flop brings me no help at all... Leader flips over QQ, cold caller AJo, me AKh. No help on the turn or on the river, and I am outta there.
Did I play this hand all right? Were my thoughts sound? Opinions and advice appreciated. Thank you Tim
I guess since you had more chips than the cold caller you'd end up in at worst 6th place regardless of the outcome. So in that case, you have a chance to go from near the bottom of the pile right to the top. Usually the payout difference for lower places isn't that much, so I like your play here. Leader could be making a move, but all in all, it seems like a good gamble to me.
Bill
x
You are going to be blinded out shortly and odds are you won't see a hand like this again, BUT it is a lot easier to double up as opposed to tripling up.
In general, when you are short stacked and going all-in it is ideal to be agains 1 other opponent IMO.
Now back to your situation: How many positions in the tournament get paid, and how much does each position get? If I was trying to squeak into the money I would have folded that hand, and here is why:
The chip leader has been being aggressive, but he is still showing good hands. I would put him on any pair 8's or up, 2 pictures, or A9 and up. Also, there is someone else in the pot who has gone all-in. What would he be going all-in with? You would have to bet a strong A, or KQ, or a pair (maybe any pair... depending on the guy). Odds are that at least one of these guys has an A. Therefore, you are losing outs against a made hand. The best scenario that I could picture is that both of them has an A, and I have the strongest A, but I think the odds of this are too small to make this all-in play. However, your stack is quite small wrt the blinds, so it may have been correct. You weren't that big of a dog.
If I was a long way from the money, I may make this play out of desparation. How often do you get such a premium hand. BTW, if I was heads up against UTG, I would make this play for sure under similar circumstances.
Just my thoughts,
Derrick
I'm afraid that you're in such a crapshoot of a tourney that all decisions look bad. While clearly the player who makes the best decisions will do better, there is a huge luck factor at this final table.
Payouts are key here. If only 5 or 6 get paid, you should probably fold, as it appears that at least one of them should have a pair, meaning you're not getting much +EV out of this hand. If the top 3 get paid, I would call, as this is your best shot to get there, most likely. If you're in the money, and can make more by letting others go broke, then it depends. Calling here increases your chances of winning, but is probably reducing your average monetary return. Which is more important, a small increase in EV, or a pretty noticeable increase in your chances of winning?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Late middle stage of a Pokerpages tournament. Blinds 50/100. I have a healthy, above average stack of T4600 and I am #2 chipleader at table. I am in BB with AcQc. All fold to fairly loose raiser in late position (seat 8) who raises $100. He is table chipleader with just over T7000 but was a fish who had been getting very lucky and now was trying to run over the table with his big stack. I had seen this guy raise from that spot AND out of position with A8offsuit, JQoffsuit, any suited ace or king, any 2 paint cards, small suited connectors and other weak hands. All fold to me I call the extra $100 from BB with my AcQc making it a heads-up contest.
Flop comes 2c 3c 5h giving me 2 overcards, the nut flush draw and a gutshot straight draw - a total of 18 outs twice (assuming my overcards are good if one of them hits, and assuming he doesnt have a 6 if I hit my gutshot 4)
My initial read (which was difficult because he was a dimmy and could have had a wide spectrum of hands) was that he had a medium to big ace or two face cards or maybe even something like K10o or suited. I had never seen him raise with an ace with less than an 8 kicker (but he would limp [and call raises] with any ace!) so I ruled out A6 giving him a better gutshot draw.
Two questions:
[1] How would you play this hand and flop in that spot i.e. in the Big Blind against this idiot?
[2] Reverse the roles - Lets assume I was the original raiser with the AcQc and the BB called then he came out firing with a pot sized bet on that flop how would you play it then?
Look forward to your replies. Results later.
Thanks
I would be inclined to play this hand aggressively, both pre- and post- flop. You should definitely re-raise pre-flop as you are very probably in front and you would still like to take the pot down. Normally I might add that you want to discourage people from trying to steal your blind, but if he is definitely raising too often then you do not want to correct his play by discouraging him in general. However in this case I still think you should raise.
On the flop, you should be aggressive again. There's every chance you are winning, never mind the many outs you have if you are behind. If you can reliably rule out A4 (as well as A6) then so much the better. Come out betting the pot. If he raises, shove it all in. If he calls and you miss the turn, you'll have to play some poker based on your previous observation of this opponent (difficult on-line I know).
In situation 2, remembering that this is a super-satellite tournament, with a very large stack (10% of the total chips in play or higher) against another large stack you might slow down and call rather than get in a fight at this point. With less chips, and you have a lot less here, raise him out of his seat.
In tournament poker I feel you must be aggressive heads-up when you catch some flop.
Andy.
First of all, even though this player is a "fish" he still is chip leader and can take you down and he can have a real hand, so you need to be more careful against him.
1) In your case I would bet the pot. An interesting play against a solid player would be to checkraise the flop. I doubt that would work in this case since he sounds like he would call and call your turn bet.
2) Assuming you only raised 100 preflop, then the BB could be calling with anything. He could have 64 or a4. More likely he has an open-ender. I think I would raise him another 400. If you get re-raised, you can dump your hand.
Ken Poklitar
I would suggest the following specific steps be followed in order to maximze your return on this hand:
1) Bet the flop (and offer the caller a special 2 pound box of bon bons).
2) Bet the pot on the turn (and ensure that the opponent [who is certain to call with whatever cheese they're holding] has immediate access to both a full box of Dunkin Donuts and 2 liter bottle of Diet Pepsi)
3) Go allin on the turn (and pray that the rag chasing donutmuncher has had enough time to down all available offerings)
4) Wait for the river to hit the s.o.b. right between the eyes, and blow ur hand (which was ahead all the way) right outta the water!
5) politely congratulate the gdmf on his/her superior card playing skill (while simultaneosly heartily patting him/her on the back and lighting a match near his/her 350 pound lard ass in the forlorn hope that the resulting explosion will not only blow the ragmunching sob into orbit, but put you out of your misery also!)
Of course; you have been knocked out of the tournament AGAIN, but at least the explosion has taken one of "them" out, and your resulting 6 month hospital stay will temporarily prevent you from having to undergo similar situations. After your release from the hospital, it will only take another 2 years of intensive therapy, and you will then be ready to sit down and do battle on the green felt again.
ntf
LOL!!!!
SO why don't U tell the folks what the ragmunching rolling donut chaser took up aginst U?!!
Post a warning Sign tho!
I resemble that remark and will continue to bet allin with 83o into your AQs here. After all...DunkinDonuts is my sponsor!!!!
This came up in a $5 Paradise Poker tourney.
Limit is 400/800. 5 Players left. Stacks, before blinding are : UTG has 2,015, Middle position at 1,050, You are button with 2,755, SB has 1,520, BB has 660.
UTG raises to 800. MP folds, you have AKo. SB has 1320 after posting. BB 260.
What is your play??
What if its you and UTG heads-up on the flop of 7s5c6d and he checks?
My play and results in different post.
KJS
I know I played this all wrong. Please comment on my thinking.
UTG raised to me, leaving him with 1215 v. my 2755. I was pretty sure the SB would fold, letting us duke it out. The BB has already decided whether he is along for the ride, regardless of whether I reraise. I figure this is going to be heads-up after the flop. Seems to me the question I need to know is do I have him beat right now? If so, a reraise seems in order, putting him at only 415 if he calls it or all-in if he reraises me again. Either way this looks to be mano-a-mano to the river if I reraise. If I am behind, I figure I call and see what happens on the flop. If it hits me I probably cripple him good. If not, maybe I lose 800 to him and we switch spots in the stack order.
Is there an argument for not playing this at all? Maybe not wanting to butt heads with the second stack, instead hoping one of the blinds calls and you get closer to the money if they bust? Hmmmm.
Anyway...I elect to call. My intuition says this is not a straight steal with him being UTG, but the small stacks are in the blinds and I did not take that into consideration at the time. That may have tilted me towards thinking he was stealing or semi-stealing.
So we see the flop heads-up, both blinds folded. It is 7s5c6d. He checks. I get weak knees and check too. A big mistake?? These LL tourneys are check and call city and I don't want to lose tons of my stack with no pair. Too weak huh?
Turn is 5h. UTG bets out, I fold. This looked like the typical LL slowplay to me, or he took advantage of my playing like a wimp. Either way I lost 800 chips not knowing how aggressive to play my AKo.
Comments?
KJS
Right from the start, I think he has a medium pair or better. At this point, I muck the AK, protect my stack and wait for a time when I am in control. But, I am a little conservative.
I don't think mucking your AK is conservative at all. Unless UTG is a total idiot, he did not raise in that posistion with rags?! I check right along with his check post flop. Had he checked the turn; I would have checked along again. AK is STILL a drawing hand, and unimproved costs you big time. IMO, many players "marry" this hand right into the poorhouse.
I still don't agree with checking after the flop. If he really had something, he would be crazy to check on the flop, giving you a potential free card. I'll bet his hand was no better than equal. When you bet, he should fear an overpair, and will likely fold. If you get a checkraise, so be it. You still have T1500. Agression wins more than it loses in these situations, in my opinion, and I have won about half of my last ten tourneys. ($20)
I have yet to play these tournies. Although you are the chip leader you are one bad hand from being out. My understanding is the top 3 get paid.
I probably re-raise so you make it headsup. If you think the SB will fold without a re-raise then I probably don't re-raise.
On the flop, I bet out on the flop. If I get check-raised I seriously consider mucking.
Ken Poklitar
Before looking at the results, I call preflop and bet when he checks. Fairly quickly but not too quickly. I don't like raising preflop because there is no need here to commit a lot of chips. You want to place in the tourney, first of all. If the flop misses, you will have committed t1200 and not know where you're at. If the flop hits, you are a very likely leader and will be able to take complete control. Some might argue not to get involved, and let him chew up whoever dares to call, but I think you always need to try to take advantage of your good hands. If I had t5000 here, I might well feep folding until 3 are left.
Stud tournament early. You have about 30% less than the chip leader. Rest of the players are about even with you. You are at the 25/50 limit with about 3 minutes before you move to 50/100. Eight players, no picture cards showing. You have(KQ)J. Five dollar ante, seat 1 brings (shows a 4) in for $15 ($55 in pot). You are in seat 2
What is your play?
Suppose you are now in seat 8, and seat 1 brings in for $15. You get 4 additional callers (pot =$115); again no picture cards show. What do you do now?
Answer 1: Fold. Too many players still to act. I would only steal with this hand in a later position if no one came in besides the forced bet.
Answer 2: Fold. It's a multiway pot, and I feel I don't have a good chance here.
I have played few Stud tournaments, but if there's something I should know, I'm willing to learn because my success rate is dismal.
Raise ; Call.
Although it depends on the usual factors, those would be my most likely plays against typical opponents. I should add that I have never played limit Stud in my life though :-)
Andy.
In the first case, I raise, unless the table has shown a history of calling in droves despite a raise. Nobody can play back at you unless they have a pocket pair of Qs, Ks, or As (or they're stupid, or you've been way too loose already). Pretty often, you'll win right here. If not, you still have a hand that is ahead of anything but pocket Js or higher.
In the second case, I call and hope for a T on 4th street. If I catch one pair, I still don't like it all that much, as somebody could be well ahead of me, and I won't know it. However, if I catch a pair, I'll bet it more often than not when high on board.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I am bringing a thread over from the Internet Forum, as a subthread between myself and Gator has turned into a discussion of the correctness of folding AA preflop in a tourney. Since the discussion has become divorced from just the context of internet poker, I felt it belonged here. The thread was originally titled "warm-up champ?".
Specifically, the discussion is the correctness of ever folding AA preflop EARLY in a tourney, when you are not yet in or near the money. The specific context was early in a pokerpages NL HE tourney, but at this point the discussion, at least in my mind, is pertinent to ANY NL HE tourney. We are NOT discussing situations such as when you're very, very close to the final 5 in a pokerpages round 1 event, or very, very close to the final "n" in a super-satellite. This only concerns situations EARLY in the tourney, when there is still many dozens or hundreds of hands to be dealt before you reach your goal.
Here are the facts from the hand that prompted this discussion, as written by Gator: ***For example, one tourney about the twentieth hand or so, I get AA, raise, another player raises all in, and two callers! What do you do? Go all in against three others and risk going out very early or muck. Well I muck it, because I dont want my Aces four handed facing a full board for only 1200 in chips. You have to survive to make the money, and 1200 chips now does not guaranteee you dick.***
And here is some of the text from Gator's last post: *** I think tournaments are more about picking your spots than pushing small percent edges. I'm sure we both agree on that. This is a great hand in an equally poor spot. In pokerpages, I think I can fold and find a better spot easily and you don't need AA to find it, that spot can come with 45s. I could be totally out of line. I am split 70/30 on my thinking if this is the best play in this spot.
My major point is that there are no strong hands in a multiway pot pre-flop. I don't want to put all my chips in with 5% edge early on, when the fish are biting. I believe TJ probably has done the same, to make the final table so many times. ***
I agree completely, that tournaments are not about pushing SMALL edges. However, AA all-in preflop is not a small edge, not even close. You mention 5%, but the edge of AA against 4 random hands is greater than 100%. Yes, for every chip risked, you get an average return of greater than one chip in profit. This kind of edge cannot knowingly be sacrificed.
Gator and I have gone back and forth on this issue, and I can't convince him that folding his AA here, early in the tourney, is a HUGE mistake. Anyone care to help me out?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I can't imagine ever folding AA in the situation described.
You are most likely facing one underpair, one good ace and one good suited hand. Against KK, QJs & ATo, you win 60%. You could fold AA and wait and play the NUTS but how often will they show up? It costs chips to play cards that make the NUTS.
I will take my 60% chance to go from 300 to 1200 everytime.
Ken Poklitar
Where in tarnation do you come up with KK QJ and ATo??? I had stated that the all-in raise could be anything, from a hand to an attempt to steal. The first all-in caller must have something premium, this was the first or second pot he entered, and the second all-in caller, same thing, first pot or so in and calling two all-ins with initial raiser still to play. In can't put that hand on anything less than AA, KK or AKs depending on this guy's toughness, he is not a maniac.
AA is not winning 60% of the time against all 3 other hands and five board cards. I'm not questioning that AA is a favorite, but is the reward worth the risk (bust)in a tournament where you get plenty of action on every hand.
"AA is not winning 60% of the time against all 3 other hands and five board cards." If you have KK, QJs & ATo against AA, AA does wins 60% of the time. Sim it yourself in Turbo.
Lets try a different sim. Fine, the steal is AKs. The 1st all-in call is AKs. The 2nd all-in call is QQ. AA win 65% of the hands.
The worst I can find AA against 3 other hands is against 3 lower pocket pairs where AA wins 52% of the time.
The point being at worst case you are given 1:1 odds but you are being rewarded 3:1.
Even if you know one of your opponents have AA you are still a good favorite to split the pot. In the scenario that happened, AA vs AA vs KJs vs QQ. AA splits the pot 64% of the time.
Give me aces everytime,
Ken Poklitar
Getting 1:1 odds as a 3:1 favorite in a ring game.
I think the major point missing from this discussion is that you are getting no money in a tourney unless you finish in the top 5. Of course I'd take these odds everytime in a money game. No doubt. But is this win at this stage getting you any closer to the money? Not in my opinion. You can't win the tourney (not even get significantly closer) in this spot, but you certainly can lose it all. If it were in the mid stage and we are talking T3000 increasing to T6000 and a cruise to the finish, I'll go with the 3:1 favorite, it's good and may not get any better.
We have to agree that in round 1 of pokerpages tournament T600 is not significantly greater than T300. So why would you want to risk all your stack in a situation where you are only a 3:1 favorite to double up, when there are better opportunities to double up in this tourney and blinds are still 5/10.
I hope that expresses my point more clearly.
It may be better to think of this hand in odds to double up, than AA or KK or whatever. You still have enough time to get your chips in as a 5:1 favorite or better.
I think he is wrong about TJ, as a matter of fact he says in his NL tournament book that AA is the only hand worth going bust with early in a tournament.
Of course you can't win a tournament early but you sure can lose one. Problem with Gators thinking is there in not a hand he can play if he can't play AA in this spot.
Sure we would all like to take the AA heads up with the BIG edge but some times we can't have things the way we want them.
I also think it is wrong to discuss hands like this in the PokerPages internet context - that ain't really poker - no investment, legions of cyber weasels pusing in and praying for a big flop. In the real world one has a better chance in a NL tournament getting his big pair heads up and that's the way I like to play AA.
TJ also says that "If you always limp with AA, you will never go broke with AA". Heads up, I play this hand in a heartbeat. If "I" move all in and get three callers it's worth it.
"Problem with Gators thinking is there in not a hand he can play if he can't play AA in this spot."
Right, I don't want to play any hand in this spot, all my chips in pre-flop in a multiway pot in the first round with a slight edge. Ecspecially when the players are poor and opportunities to double up are plenty. I don't need AA, I'll take 68s in the right place.
"I also think it is wrong to discuss hands like this in the PokerPages internet context - that ain't really poker - no investment, legions of cyber weasels pusing in and praying for a big flop. In the real world one has a better chance in a NL tournament getting his big pair heads up and that's the way I like to play AA."
Glad someone agrees. This topic started my hand example. I think that luck outweighs skill in these games. Those people pushing and praying in a no limit money game would be a wet dream come true, but in a tourney with one life, they hurt a serious player. Unless you get lucky....
This can only be discussed in the context of the poker pages tournaments, because the whole point of folding the AA is that you can get better spots against this level of opposition to take a chance of busting out.
I never considered Gator's concept, but I think he might be right in terms of the pokerpages tournaments. I think his whole point is that you can get spots where your edge is so huge that you don't need to risk all your chips when your edge is only gigantic (:
That said, I'd have a hard time folding.
Greg,
I agree with you on this one. The structure of the PokerPages tournament does not give you time to play a a cautious safe game. Once the blind levels go up to 25 and 50 you will wish you took more chances earlier.
Having that big stack early gives you the intimidation image you need to steal from the weak cautious player waiting for a hand. It's a big bonus to be the chipleader at your table. I've been busted heads-up and in multiway pots on the PokerPages tournaments with a pair of aces, and lost with them in a real tournment too. It happens.
Due to the structure of these types of tournaments, it favors the lucky. If you lost with aces preflop, it just was not your day.
I originally posted the hand as a luck vs skill thing in the PokerPages tourneys. I'm seeing so far a lot of people feel the push and pray mentality and fast limit increases dampens the skill factor plenty. The hand is interesting to discuss, and I think the value of staying a live is better than the X% of wins, because even a big stack is no more of a guarantee in this volatile enviornment. I mentioned in one of the original posts that I did not sit around for close to an hour to get into the tournament(under old system) to bust out in fifteen minutes. This may be an adverse factor in my judgemnet noting the large support that calling is getting.
Gator,
I think there is too much luck involved when you are playing in these PokerPages tournaments. The problem is this, what kind of hand are you willing to play in the early stages?
The real delemma occurs is when the blinds go to the 25 and 50 level. You are going to have to depend on luck, because people are making raises higher than you should call.
My experience with these tourneys so far is I usually either bust out within the first hour, or I get lucky and my hands hold up, and I make it to the last two tables consistantly. Four weeks ago I made it to 4th place, and played on Saturday and made it to 18th place (I can not play on Sundays because I work) I've won with aces and I've lost with them even when I was a 3-to-1 favorite to win. The structure of the tournament does not give you the opportunity to wait until you are a favorite. Two weeks ago I made it to 6th place and just missed it because a small all in stack got lucky.
I play these on Fridays and Saturdays. But, I think they are good practice to try out strategies. In a real tournament when you move in after a raise you usually don't get called or you get called by AK or KK.
Good Luck Gator
mah
you could make a case for folding aa if the players were passive and you could steal your way into the money. no tournaments are like that anymore so sooner or later you are going to have to put your stack in a few times in a tournament with close decisions, and hope to get thru them. so you may as well do it early and get some chips especially with such good odds and still being a favorite to win the pot. even late in a payout tournament it would be very rare to find a case where its right to fold the aces before the flop.
Ordinairly I could see myself folding in a passive game with 7 callers in an early game, but I have reconsidered after reading the above info. The reason is simple. At these lower limits, I have a significant number of big bets and I am getting value for my small bet with all the comers. I have to see tha flop with AA even for 4 bets.
"I have to see tha flop with AA even for 4 bets. "
This is a NoLimit hand. It's for all my chips (300) to win (1000) with four all in players seeing the entire board.
I chose to run and fight another time in a smaller battle that I'm a bigger favorite in.
b
"you could make a case for folding aa if the players were passive and you could steal your way into the money"
No I don't think you are going to find the passive players at PokerPages and steal any money, but I think that you could almost double up on any given hand with the loose calling nature a free game provides.
In lots of situations, this is an easy call. especially mid tourney where winning the hand almost guarantees you a piece of the prize, but early where the game is very volatile and the chip stacks don't mean much, you can possibly find a better spot.
I've discussed this question several times over the years with a few of the very top tournament players. They all say they'd never fold AA in this type of situation (early in the tourney). Still, I wonder if I've not explained properly why this doesn't seem to be a trivial decision.
In the situation Fossilman describes there's something like a 30% chance of going broke on the hand. If you are early in the first round of WSOP(25-50 blinds; 2 hr levels; 10,000 in chips) might it not be possible for a top player to have such a huge skill edge over certain types of opponents that he's a big favorite to double or triple up during the first 2 or 3 levels without ever having to risk all (or even most) of his stack?
Let's say, for example, that instead of a 70% chance of quadrupling up along with a 30% chance of going broke, you could choose an 80% chance of tripling up along with a 10% chance of breaking even and a 10% chance of losing 1/3 of your stack. Isn't the latter choice better?
The real question seems to be whether even the very best players could have so great a skill advantage in the real world. But in theory, if you realized that 2 or 3 people at your table called all your preflop raises and then folded to even small bets unless they flopped the absolute nuts, maybe you'd be better off playing a few dozen hands that way during the first 4 or 5 hours rather than ever risking your whole stack.
i would call because before the flop u have the best hand so u have a big advantage
frankly, if you're prepared to fold aces preflop there's no point showing up. stick to chess instead.
Although Greg is absolutely correct (IMO), does not the texture of the play (and the players!) @ PPages override that correctness? (See post below by AL on AQs)
It's damned hard to muck AA in that position! You are a big favorite pre-flop, BUT.....there will be a flop! With some of the hands that we've all seen played @ Ppages in the early "maniac" stages there, what happens to that pre-flop edge when the flop, turn & river comes?
What would I have done? Probably pushed it allin, but, I would not have been real happy or comfortable about it, and would have prepared myself to get the old "ding" - you have finished 145th out of 200 players message!
Immediately followed by: beating up the desk, kicking the dogs, cursing a blue streak, and then wishing I had had the discipline to remember that this is Ppages and (in hindsight, of course, LOL) I probably would have been better off saving my chips for a better situation later.
So: does the texture of this PARTICULAR tournament override conventional wisdom?
I guess I just don't like to gamble.
:-)
There is no question to this fact. There is no question to the fact that you are getting the odds to call.
Forget for a moment that that the hand we are dealing with is AA. Think of it as a "spot" where you are a 3:1 favorite to double up or lose your stack. Now the question:
Is being a 3:1 favorite worth risking your whole stack to double up, in the first round of a tourney, when there are better spots to put it all in?
That's not the situation the original post was dealing with. The original situation is more like you are 60% likely to quadruple your stack.
What other situation could you be in where you can be _so sure_, 100% certain, that you have this big an edge ? I'm yet to be convinced.
Andy.
.
This came up last night in PP tourney. 4 players left in 400-800. I'm button with t950. SB has about T3500 after posting. BB has T390 after posting. 3 places get paid. UTG folds. I have KJo and raise, hoping to knockout the BB if he calls all-in. SB unfortunately reraises. BB calls all-in. So if the SB wins I am 3rd no matter what because I started the hand with more chips than the BB. If I fold and the BB wins, I have a wing and a prayer, or is it a chip and a chair? That's what I decided to do. I think it was the wrong move, because I have little hope anyway if the BB wins, and of course I could win the hand and have T2690, putting me right in the thick of things. Also my short stack will be T320 instead of T150 if BB wins but I beat SB. The SB did win and I went out next hand, finishing 3rd as hoped. If you knew the SB had AA, would your comment be the same?
i would be $1000
The Bicycle Casino is offering a freeroll tournament to all players who log 200 hours live play. The club is ponying up 500K. A player can accumulate up to 600 hours and get more chips. I have not played live poker for seven years. Should I try to accumulate 200 hours or go for the maximum 600 hours. Should I play small stakes or big stakes. Should I try at all? What is your opinion? I apologize if this was not the right forum for this post.
MAKE EM PAY BET .2650IN POT.NO FREE CARDS AT THIS POINT .
small chance you could be against the str8 but you have to bet and take your losses now and again.
JJ is too weak to check.
Just got back from the Friday Limit Hold'em Tourney at Lucky Chances. Started with 60 players (1000 chips each) and paid the top 12. I'm already in the money with 10 players left.
Blinds are 300-600 and betting is 600-1200. Five-handed table and I have 2400 chips (short stack). Everyone folds to me in the SB and I have AcJc. I raise to 1200. The BB (who is a decent but not great player) asks how much I have left and seems to be thinking about 3-betting. He has 2300 chips left and just calls my raise.
The flop comes 3s 5s 8h. I check. BB bets and I call. Turn is a 4s. I check and he bets all-in. If I call and lose, I have 100 left. I think about it and then fold. He turns over complete garbage with no pairs (but he had a spade and I think a gutshot draw). I'm knocked out of the tourney shortly after this.
I discussed this hand with Tommy Angelo and we both agreed the I should have bet the flop no matter what hit just to see where I was at. I definitely agree that this was the best play, but I was kinda concerned because I thought he was going 3-bet preflop to represent a bigger ace or pocket pair. Anyways, please criticize my play. I was thinking that he had at least a pair or maybe even a flush and that I was drawing very slim. Do any of you guys call the all-in bet here and just hope? I thought I was beat and decided to play for survival. I believe that most of the time in this situation I'm probably beat and was playing percentages so I folded. Damn I hate when this happens...LOL. Should I have even called the flop beat after I checked?
Thanks in advance for your comments.
Jace,
I consider AJ suited or not a monster five handed. Sometimes, players get tricky. Usually when someone asks how much you have left they are trying to determine your confidence. They're trying to make you feel uneasy, so you give up your hand. It gives them a clue to try to bluff you. If he had a real hand he may have likely raised you.
Consider that when you hold two cards of different values you or your opponent will hit the flop approximately 33% of the time. Plus you have outs. So you're betting with an out if he calls anyway. Do you see the advantage here? If you only hit approximately 33% of the time that gives you a 66% advantage if you are playing against a player that will fold to a bet if he does not hit the flop.
You should bet the flop in this situation, you want to make him think you have a pair. When you checked, you were giving him a license to steal it from you, and he did.
Better luck next time,
mah
If you check, think ahead about what you are going to do if he bets. If you're going to call, then bet it yourself first.
AJ may not be a monster 5-handed, but we're not 5-handed here, we're heads up because everyone has passed, right ?
I bet the flop. If called, I will check the turn if there is no possibility my opponent will fold (with the intention of calling, but basically trying to check it down). If I think he might fold, I bet again.
Alternatively, stick to big-bet tournaments where you can just go all-in and not worry about all this gubbins :-).
Andy.
I would bet--Trying to steal it there. If you get called hope a 7 or Q falls. If a J falls--I don't think it will help you very much. Making the anyone with a 7 or Q the winner. I would fold if any overcard hit the river and someone bet out. If a rag hits the river and they all check try stealing again. If you get raised at any point I would most likely fold..
Tuesday I went down to Foxwoods to play in the weekly NL tourney. Unfortunately, they cancelled it because of the satellites. I played in a NL satellite and a limit satellite. The structure was basically this: blinds start at 10-15(NL) and 15-25(limit); you start with T500 and blinds increase every 15 minutes.
I thought that the limit tourney was very short-term luck oriented because of the structure and amount of chips you start with. I tried to play conservatively in the early rounds, but my medium stack could not play against the big stacks in the later rounds. They would not be chased out of a hand when the blinds threatened my stack.
The NL tourney was better, but the small stack size still limits strategy. Any thoughts on strategy for either? Also, the entry fee was 42$ for a 330$ satellite. Is that a common vig? about 30%
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Tournament Poker
March 2001 Digest is provided by Two Plus Two Publishing and ConJelCo