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What if they had been head up at that point?
Then you would have had a better than 80% chance of winning.
Mike:
I haven't read the other posts so hopefully I won't repeat what others have said. But I do think that you are missing something.
The analysis can be divided up into two situations. But first understand that you can virtually never be sure that you are raised by precisely a flush draw. But you can be suspicious that you opponent might be raising on one.
Case I: It is very likely that you have the best hand. This would happen if you flop something like top pair and top kicker. For example, you have AQ and the flop comes queen high and based on the before the flop action you have no reason to believe a big pair is out. Here if you lead and are raised it makes sense to reraise because you are so likely to have the best hand.
Case II: It is questionable that you have the best hand. The same flop as before but now you hold a hand like Q9. When raised, there are too many hands that could beat you. A better queen would be one, and a flush draw that gets there would be another. Here the raise has turned your hand into just a calling hand and if the flush card does get there, there is little chance that your hand will be any good. But if the flush card does not come, the probability that you have the best hand has gone way up so you can frequently bet again.
Do you see the difference?
Mason,
Even in the case where you hold Q9 there are many more ways someone can Axs for a flush draw than a better Q, so why not raise since you are the favorite?
Oops, posted too fast again. He probably would have raised with A(Q-A) so there are 10 ways he could hold A(2-J) for a flush draw. He would have raised with Q(Q-A) so there are 8 ways he could hold Q(10-J). Since it's about even that he has a better hand, the added probability of being outdrawn makes raising the wrong play, as you said.
Charlie,
Preflop against a large field I want the button or “virtual button” to call with king small suited since this hand clearly wants to play for one bet. By “virtual button”, I want to see that the button is about to fold before playing. Note that about half my opponents in mid limit have this basic “sloppiness tell” around here.
On the flop I agree that you should check since you have little going for you other than the flush draw. After checking, you have a fine checkraise for value. You now have six opponents and are a 1.86 to 1 dog at that point to hit your flush. This raise makes money in the long run, even though your hand is not made yet. Although the button may reraise, which may force some of the originals callers to fold, it is unlikely so many will fold that your raise will lose all the aforementioned value.
Note that with six callers you have to worry that a flush that pairs the board can easily make somebody a full. But you might find out that you are against a set or two pair (BTW, only a blind or terrible player could have two pair here) on the flop when someone who originally calls makes it three bets.
I do think playing king-small suited can get you in trouble and may be high variance if you misplay it when a king flops and face action. But this isn't the case here.
Rick
K8s is absolute garbage, except for a third of a bet in the SB.
The checkraise is an awful play. Hero shoulda bet out, hoping for button to raise, knocking out K-big, A8, gutshot draws, maybe even a weak T. I play in the loosest, most passive $10-20 & $15-30 games you can imagine, and believe me, Hero wants people out at this point(having put in 4 sb's w/trash).
I don't understand your argument about knocking people out on the flop when you have a draw to the second nut flush. The benefit of additional callers when a flush hits has got to outweigh the benefit of knocking out overcards and then winning if a K comes along.
Also, I think you undervalue K8s in a multiway, unraised pot. Having a hand that can flop the second nut flush or flush draw is not garbage. In fact, I think S&M suggest calling with Q5s on the button in a multiway pot.
What is being addressed is how an unknown player at $15-$30 might play. In general, they don't play, especially if the game is full, in the matter that you describe,
I'm sorry to dissent here, but many online 15/30 players will make this exact play with hand like 53s, 54s, K4o, 33, K-hi, and A-hi. Remember, 88 didn't raise preflop, and was checked to on the flop. A *lot* of players will auto-bet in this position, so it makes checkraising with anything bettter than K-hi correct.
Unlike Izmet, I tend to shrink back into rope a dope mode when hit with unexpected aggression from the sb in this position. I might go for the free card play sometimes too, but giving up the pot now is silly.
Hell, I saw someone 2-bet and then cap a pot heads-up with KQo and a board of JJT with a two flush on the board. They lead through the river and won with a river K.
- Andrew
Just for clarity, I did raise preflop with my 88.
And Izmet, please don't go!
Puggy
This may seem nitpicky, but it's quite a relevant question:
I might go for the free card play sometimes too, but giving up the pot now is silly.
Did you mean free showdown play or free card play? Raising the flop to check the turn is a bad play here, imo. Raising the turn to check the river is, of course, perfectly acceptable.
30-60. All pass to the cut-off, a poor player. He raises. On the button, you re-raise with A-Ts. To your dismany, the big blind, a good and tricky player, calls. Cut-off calls and you take the flop 3-handed. There is $270 in the pot.
Flop is 9-6-5 rainbow with one of your suit. Both opponents check to you and you bet. Both opponents call. $360 in the pot.
Turn is another 5 of the 4th suit. Again both opponents check to you. You also check. (Mistake?)
River is another 6, making board 9-6-5-6-5. Big blind bets, cut-off calls.
Two questions:
1) Was is a mistake to check on the turn? 2) What do you now do on the river?
Results later.
I overcalled on the river and we split the pot 3 ways. BB had A-K, cut-off had A-J. It was a mistake to check the turn for sure. But it does show the value to your play, I think, of making check-raise on the turn a regular part of your game, as it gives your opponents (in this case me) pause.
How many people would have 4 bet it out of the BB in this position? I would do it against all generic opponents. You are almost sure to have the best hand. If he had 4 bet and came out firing he wouldn't have had to split the pot 3 ways.
Pretty tough to 4-bet out of position. However, he knew cut-off is weak, and he knew I knew cut-off is weak; therefore we were both more likely to have less strong hands than in a more "generic" situation.
I think he would have had to fire at least twice to win the pot, whether he 4-bet or not.
It seems more and more players in 20-40 and 30-60 are now limping with a hand that contains a King or Queen in it than previously. Used to be you could picked up unraised pots fairly often from the blind by betting into not too many opponents when an otherwise non-threatening flop contained a King or Queen. Now it seems more and more players are limping with A-Q, K-Q, K-J, Q-J or even A-K.
Anyone else notice this?
I believe most middle limit players view King-Queen as a standard limping hand from any position and King-Jack and Queen-Jack are standard limping hands from middle position and late position after others have limped. Ace-King and Ace-Queen are raising hands in most games. I have not noticed people limping in much with AK or AQ. They seem to raise with them unless there is a lot of limpers.
I rarely play KQ from anywhere but middle to late position. I do not feel this hand can be played profitably in middle limit games from utg or early position. I will play a lot more hands that many would fold from late position because I personally fell position importance cannot be overemphasized.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D)
So do you think the advice that you can get away betting into not too many opponents in an unraised flop when the flop contains an otherwise non-threatening K or Q is wrong? It seems to me that I used to be able to make this play from the blinds more successfully than now.
I believe that in an unraised pot, if you flop a top pair of Queens with a King kicker or a top pair of Kings with a Queen kicker you have an excellent playing hand and will win a lot of money over the course of a year in this situation. You will get payed off all the way to the river by hands which also have top pair but with a worse kicker. If someone had a better kicker they would have probably raised pre-flop. The reason you get paid off by a hand like King-Jack, King-Ten, or King-Little suited on a King-high flop is because your opponent does not know how big your King is or whether or not you even have a King. Similarily, with a Queen-high flop and a guy has limped in with Queen-Jack, Queen-Ten, Queen-Nine, or Queen-Little suited.
I agree, Jim. But my question was what you think about Mason's suggestion that in an unraised pot, it is unlikely an opponent who limped has a K or a Q, and therefore you can bet into a flop containing K high or Q high as a bluff. It seems I get away with this less and less, not because my opponents are catching on, but because they seem to have a K or Q more often despite having not raised pre-flop.
Andy,
I also find more are limping these days with the hands you describe (at the 20/40, I'm not quite ready for 30/60). However, Mason's play is still useful if the limpers came in from middle to late position. Most KQ type hands are still raising before the flop with these hands in those positions.
Regards,
Rick
I don't agree that in an unraised pot it is unlikely that an opponent has a King or Queen. Typical players will limp with KJ,KT, or any suited King. They will also limp in with QJ,QT,Q9, and many with any suited Queen especially from late position. This is a lot of hands. As an example, I was playing in a $40-$80 game with John Feeney at Oceans 11 and John limped in from the button with Qs5s behind an early limper and myself.
I do agree that a board of Kxx rainbow or Qxx rainbow is a good flop to bluff or semi-bluff against a small number of opponents (3 or less).
Jim,
I am starting to agree with your logic almost 100% here. Essentially, your opponent's mistakes are amplified tremendously in an unraised pot when you hold this hand.
Another advantage of limping with KQ is that if you do get raised behind and a the flop comes king or queen high (with several opponents), a probe bet into the raiser (especially with opponents in between) will often give you a good feel for where you are at. Anyway, in a typical game I have cut down on my raises with KQ before the flop, even in positions I normally like to be aggressive, such as the cutoff against two or three weak limpers. And if I play KQ early (the game has to be soft), I tend to just call.
Also, by not getting pot tied with a pre flop raise, KQ plays in such a straightforward manner that I believe you significantly reduce your swings. So even if we are wrong about the increase in expectation, this might make limping the better play in the typical game.
Regards,
Rick
I don't think that KQ was ever a raising hand in early poistion in most mid limit games. So, I am not sure that things have changed much (as Andy intimates). I have not noticed very many people limping with AK/AQ in early position.
holdemdude,
On RGP there was a post about a year and a half ago, which detailed what the optimal preflop round strategy for a hold'em game where betting was allowed only on the preflop round.
While this isn't exactly the kind game that one plays heads up, it is pretty close to the optimal opening strategy. Basically, they way you play is as such:
When you are opening from the small blind:
*) raise with any two broadway cards.
*) raise with suited cards whose high card is a Ten or greater.
*) raise with all your aces and kings, and your strong queens and strong jacks.
*) raise with all of your pairs.
*) call with most of the rest of your hands which are even remotely of value.
When you are in the big blind, and the small blind has limped, you can pretty much use the raising guidelines above.
When you are in the big blind and defending against a raise:
*) Reraise with all but your worst aces (i.e. A4o, A3o, A2o)
*) Reraise with your strong kings and strong queens.
*) reraise with all pairs 66+.
*) Call with most hands which are reasonable drawing hands (e.g. J8o, 53s, Q4s, 33), or have medium or better kickers (e.g. Q8o, T6o).
After the flop, play pairs aggressivly, and try to showdown most every pair. Play your draws aggressivly. If turn raises scare your opponent, raise often when you turn a draw. Often call with as little as A-hi. Bluff the river regularly when you've played the hand strongly.
Of course, this is a pretty simple guideline. It's probably best to keep it simple since the other thing you'll be doing while you play is adjusting how you play with respect to any leaks you see in your opponents game. Do they fold their big blind sometimes? Raise more. Do they fold the turn often, bluff more. Do they call you down more than they should? Don't bet your mediocre hands like small pairs, and A-hi, but bluff with your worst hands like 8-hi, value bet your medium pairs and better.
Good luck,
- Andrew
Andrew...I assume the same holds true when playing strickly heads-up. I consider my self tight-aggressive in full ring games, however I may be giving up pre-flop on some hands I should be playing...thanks... Would like to hear from some of you experts out there also...thanks
holdemdude,
The above strategy is *strictly* a heads-up strategy.
- Andrew
Anyone ever raised 8 times preflop in one session with AK, and not hit anything???
Three days ago I had AK three times in early position, raised and missed all three times. Net loss on the three hands combined: six small bets. Anymore if I get that hand up front and get callers behind, I glance at the flop and if I don't pair, I'm done. If you try that, you won't even notice how often that hand misses, just like you don't notice how often 6-7 misses.
Tommy
By the same token does ANYONE feel like they get AK as often as they get 72? Seems like 72 comes about 3 or 4 times as often as AK.
I once had AK four times in one ROUND, and didn't stack a chip.
This is a spot where whether you bet or check should be guided by many factors such as:
1. The texture of the flop
2. The position of the aggressive players left on the hand i.e. the farther away from you they are in a clockwise direction, the more likely you should be willing to bet
3. The chances of winning the pot outright or the chances of whittling the opposition down such that you can possibly steal on the turn even if you miss.
4. The size of the pot i.e. I might very well bet a hand like K2 suited in a medium size pot on a benign looking flop in order to make a hand like KJ fold so that I create 2 extra outs for myself.
4. Your current image
etc etc
It is specifically wrong to have a general rule in this situation. You can't always bet and you can't always checkcall and more importantly you shouldn't always do one thing or the other (particularly if you are willing to call 2 bets cold after checking). Let the extraneous factors dictate your course of action. An added benefit here is that you become harder to read because your opponents will have a tough time figuring out the the extraneous factors that have guided your course of action.
I often see a blind check raise a large field with a draw because they think they will win the money more than their fair share. While this play makes sense at first and may help to vary your play I think it is a mistake for two reasons.
Depending on the 'texture' of the flop/the players you are up against/your image, your raise out of the blind may not be respected one bit and you will be 3 bet by the original bettor, making your customers possibly fold on the spot or much more likely to fold on the turn because they have seen a lot of aggression from two players.
Even if you are not 3bet by the orginal bettor you have still put unnecessary pressure on others to leave the hand on the turn. Why not wait until the turn to put you money if you hit and keep your money if you don't? You can hardly expect to be paid as much on the turn if you check raise on the flop. If I am wrong I would appreciate being told so :D. -Ben
The point is that when the flush card comes in on the turn you are not going to get too many callers on the turn even if you had not raised on the flop. Thus, the reason to raise on the flop when everyone will call. It's a raise for value on the come.
But you do have to balance it with the likelihood of the original bettor 3 betting it and shutting out the field.
Is it ever correct to raise pre-flop and then fold when an oppponent re-raises? I've only seen one player do this, and I've seen him do it 3 times, to 3 separate opponents, and all 3 times he was, at the point he folded, heads up. This was in 30-60; at the time he folded there was $200 in the pot. He was in middle position all 3 times, so I don't think he had raised as an out-and-out steal.
It's possible that the preflop raiser had hands like AQ, KQo or KQs, or KJs, which meant that when reraised the reraiser probabaly has AA, KK, QQ, or AKs making him an underdog. THis is the only logic I have for his play.
I've made that play about 100 times, I'd guess, in the last three years. Typically I have something like K-8 or J-10. My reason for folding isn't the cards, it's the momentum shift. I tried to take charge and had that potential ripped away. Okay fine. Surrender.
One time I did it with JJ against one of the Bellagio regulars who was up here for a few weeks. Easy to remember such a drastic play! I was in the cutoff and he reraised from the button. This guy had not played a hand for a LONG time, at least five laps. I was getting ready to quit anyway, so I mucked face up hoping he would show. He did. KK. Yeah, I know, I probably should have looked at the flop to see if a jack came. But I didn't trust myself to fold for one bet on the flop if it came no big cards.
Tommy
Wouldn't the button have done the same thing with T-T?
Maybe in general he would, but at that moment in time I didn't think so. But let's say his range of hands was AA,KK,QQ and 10-10. With 10-10 he's likely to get me to lay down later unless I already decided before the flop to go to the river. I folded so I wouldn't have to make that choice.
Tommy
Usually when I do this, I have a hand like AT or AJ, and the three bettor is in later position or even worse out of the blinds. I would just as soon not get involved at that point.
Andy,
I thought I had an easy laydown late this afternoon. I'm in a relatively un-aggressive game where most of my advantage came on blind steals and out-playing weak opponents in smallish pots.
The three players to my left were all very tight (one was a prop), so I open raised with K9 offsuit in the cutoff. The button three-bet and the tight prop cold called out of the small blind. The big blind tossed and I threw my hand away. However, if I were head up or just against a blind allowing me to act last on all betting rounds, I would probably go with it. With bad position, two opponents are much harder to outplay than one with a hand that is easily dominated.
Regards,
Rick
Yes, your K-9 would seem useless against two opponents such as you describe. Your K-9 here is more in the nature of a steal attempt than the laydowns I've seen this other player make. When I raise from middle or early position, there may be times I don't want to see a re-raise ( maybe most of the time), but there aren't very many times I would lay down to one.
I saw this hand take place in a generally loose-aggresive 20-40 game on-line. Someone limps in, my friend raises with AK, a solid player threebets it, and an erratic player caps it, the limper folds, what do you think my friend should do? My friend decided to fold but I think it is a clear call in that spot, what do you guys think?
Shawn
A solid player who 3 bets will have AA,KK,QQ, or maybe AK suited. Who knows what the capper may have but having to pay another two bets to take a flop against a player marked with a big overpair or another AK is not desirable. I would call but folding may not be far wrong. The key is that you have to be 100% certain that the 3 bettor has AA,KK,QQ, or AK suited to make folding correct.
If you knew that the three bettor would always raise with with QQ as well as AA or KK or AK suited it would be wrong to fold AK getting those pot odds. If an ace came, there would be one combo you would lose to and nine you would beat. If a king came you would be a six to four favorite. Otherwise you fold. You are about a five to one dog to win this pot and future bets should not hurt you on average.
As a pure percentage play, you are a dog to 3 of his 4 possible hands and a tie with the 4th. You simply are NOT the favorite under ANY scenario.
I think this particular situation is borderline but I lean toward folding for two more bets cold when out of position. If I had the button it's an easier call.
I'm going to see a flop sitting in between a capper and 3 bettor. That's horrible. I don't want to be in that position even if I flop a K. There's almost no flop I could get that would make me fall in love. Two aces is about it. Everything else and I'm nervous, cautious, and sandwiched between two aggressive bettors.
I think I can pick better spots than this especially for two bets cold.
natedogg
You shouldn't love AAx flop really. Sure you'll probably win, but how much?
You don't have to be the favorite to make calling correct.
(n/t)
in limit poker, seeing the flop is understandable.
what if it's no-limit and there are a few raises (not all in, but substantial)
No brainer. You absolutely should not call ever. You may consider moving all-in but to do that against a re-raiser and a re-re-raiser you would have to somehow have seen their cards.
To call with AK from out of position with another raiser behind you still to act would be absolute no-limit suicide.
natedogg
When a player posts for a small bet in the cutoff seat, I assume that my preflop strategy should change a little bit. Assuming that I am playing in a pretty loose/aggressive 15-30 game what sort of hands should I now play that I didn't before? Thanks, Ben
By loose-aggressive, I assume you mean that there's a lot of pre-flop raising and flop-betting and raising. If there is, you want to avoid drawing hands and tend to play only premium quality hands. The poster, in effect, raises the ante, which means you loosen up slightly since there's more money to be won. Of course the poster is in better shape than the blinds because of his position, so it's not quite the same as if there were three blinds up front.
In the games I play, the presence of a poster tends to make loose-aggressive games even more aggressive as the players, correctly, think that there is more reward for a successful pre-flop raise (by successful, I mean where both blinds and the poster fold). So this tends to couteract what I said about loosening up some because the pots tends to be raised even more often than normal.
Wildddd 10-20 game
get AKo 2nd after UTG
UTG is one of the rare good player on this table and he raises... i just call
2 other cold call (both weak passive) and the maniac on the BB just call (which means he have unsuited crap. he would have 3 bet with anything near decent.
5 players
Flop: 7-7-7 (rainbow hehe)
BB bet UTG fold i raise, trying to isolate the maniac with what im quite sure is the best hand. one of the weak passive cold calls 2 (now im 90% he has a pocket pair, hes not tricky to check raise with the nuts and kinda predictable) and bb call
Turn: a low blank
BB check (100% sure now he has nuttin, i check too, button bet, BB fold (wow he fold before the river!!!) I call
River queen
we both check and he shows JJ to take the pot
First question: Did i play this hand good? Second question: If he bet the river, do you call? Like i said, i rarely saw him make any move but it happened. ill prolly would have folded...
Ty for help
Charlie
Be wary when you have more than one opponent left after a set flops. Someone usually already has (at least) a full house.
I am the big blind with 8-10 off suit. There are six players besides myself that call the flop. The flop comes 2 7 9 rainbow. I bet out. The next player to act raises and the entire field calls the raise. I reraise thinking that I am getting 6-1 on my money and I have a 32% chance of winning the pot. Is this a good move? Everyone called...as I knew with certainty they would.
The turn is a Q still rainbow. I bet out...hoping some would fold. EVeryone calls. The river is a 4. I check and no one bets. A pair of 9s wins the pot with several grumbling about the bets I cost them
I dont care if I cost them bets...but did I play the hand correctly? Your thoughts are appreciated.
On the turn betting hoping people will fold is futile. There is no chance that you will be able to bet your way to victory in this pot, with 7 way action for 3 bets on the flop. On the other hand, if you were sure everyone would call, betting is fine because you are still making money if all your outs are good (I leave it to you to know whether it is likely someone has KT).
Why three bet the flop? Calling instead of reraising would allow you to check raise when your do hit your card. Betting the turn or a semi bluff won't work. If they called three bets they're committed to the river. Calling the raise and check raising when your card hits is your best course of action.
I might check call the turn since J is not to the nuts anymore(K-T).If someone raised and some folded it would lower your payoff. Before that the overlay justified your raises.
Betting out on the flop is debatable. Were you happy with the raise behind you? In a reasonable game (perhaps this wasn't), the raise behind you would have limited the field considerably, thus reducing your implied odds should you hit your hand. Of course, if you were should you'd get callers regardless of the raise behind you, betting is not incorrect.
Betting the turn is wrong (IMO) for the same reason. You're not going to win the pot here (and probably wouldn't be able to steal it on the river either), so you're still hoping to hit your straight. Your bet on the turn again risks limiting the field if you're raised, and it seems very likely that there will still be a bet even if you check (so you could get the money in the pot without the risk of a field-limiting raise).
Jason
I'm not quite sure I would want "some to fold" on the turn. You're not going to win this pot by betting everyone out on the turn and river. The queen was as a bad card for you in that you are not longer drawing to the nuts, plus you can no longer make top pair with your T. You've got to make your straight to win the pot (although it's possible a T could win it).
Is poster correct that he has a 32% chance of winning the pot on the flop?
I think the poster has around a 32% chance of making a straight which in all likelyhood will win.
P(open ending straight not getting there)=
39(38)/ 47(46)= 68.5%
I aggree w/the comments of the others as you shouodn't bet the turn, and the flop bet is ill advised if the player behind you will raise and thin the field (however his raise didn't thin the field)...
I knew with certainty in the game a raise would not thin the field. If I had it all to do over, I would have check-raised the turn rather than betting out. I could have trapped for more money in the pot that way.
And to an earlier posters question, yes, I loved the raise on the flop as I watched everyone call. I am getting 6-1 on a 3-1 (approximately) shot to win. Maximizing these sorts of situations...regardless of result...is how one makes money playing poker.
This play is fine -
On the flop, you want as much $ in there as you can get -period.
The tunr is a different story. A T will rarely win for you now. A bluff will never work, and 4 of your outs may be no good. The other problem is that someone may have the same hand as you or some of the cards you need in their hands. This was a problem all along, but it is especially the case now that everyone is playing. Is there a TJ out there? What was the winning hand- a 9J, or a 9T? does someone have an 86?
I think on the turn it is best to slow it down, but it probably doesn't matter much what you do...
Good luck.
Dan Z.
Not much point to this story, but thought some might enjoy it.
15-30. One limper, I raise on the button with A-Ks. Both blinds and limper all call. Flop comes J-8-2 rainbow. Small blind mucks, big blind mucks, limper mucks, all before I act!
How nice! This usually happens only when you flop quads.
I've never seen this happen en masse. I sometimes muck to a preflop raiser when heads up. When I do, it's because I know the player will bet, and I won't call, so why waste everyone's time? Next hand.
Here's a reason. Next time you check (i.e. don't muck) heads up with him, you may be giving away some info that you intend to call/raise.
Yeah everything we do provides info. Good post.
Jimminie, where is this game I want to play!!
Big L.A. poker barn. One blind was a complete novice, simply giving money away. Worst player I've ever seen at that level.
I've seen good players slowplay pre-flop by just calling an early position raise with AA or KK if no one else has entered the pot yet. Under what circumstances do you guys think this is a good play?
This seems like a good play if there are many players yet to act behind you because you could entice them to make a -EV call, whereas they would likely fold for threebets.
Also if someone raises and you are in the SB with AA or KK do you ever just call, trying to make the big blind make the mistake of calling as well (and also for the deceptive value you gain)?
Finally I rarely three-bet pre-flop heads-up from the BB, even with a premium hand because my opponent has position and they virtually always bet the flop if I check which allows me to regain that lost bet by checkraising on the flop. Does this seem correct?
thanks,
Shawn Keller
I feel that limping in with aces or kings in early position is a bad move. The reason for raising is to try and limit the amount of cards you must face. If you don't raise and get eight callers there aren't going to be many cards in the deck that won't hurt you.
As far as three betting with aces or kings in the BB that would depend on the amount of people calling the flop. More than four or five players makes it tough for you when out of position.
Finally, raising from the blind heads up with a big hand would depend on how the other player recieves raises. If he/she is willing to play it out with top pair regaurdless of the raise, basically loose, than extracting more bets early is the way to go. If he folds with any sign of strength then deception is probably the best. Heads up the rules change. You need to play the player as much if not more than your cards.
This play works best when facing a tight raiser with a typical raising range of AA-TT, AK/AQ. The problem with 3-betting is that there are so few hands with which you can justifiably 3-bet, namely AA, KK, QQ and AK, and the latter two are borderline. Cold-caling also forces your opponent to play the aggressor after the flop when you're ahead, which is great.
If the raiser has a wider range of hands you'd probably prefer to isolate him with a wider range of hands, so you'd want to 3-bet with your best hands as well.
Shawn,
I always reraise with KK and AA to give protection to hands like QQ and AKs which I usually three bet. But if you don't three bet hands like QQ and AKs then I like the the smooth call of Aces and Kings about 1/3 of the time for deception purposes.
I do like the slowplay in the BB heads-up. I think this play nets you a greater profit than the extra small bet you gain by three betting.
Jamie
IMHO, good players aren't hoping to entice players behind them to call, because even with Aces or Kings, you want two opponents at the most. I very occasionally make this play when players behind me telegraph folds. That allows me to maximize my hand with good position and deception against the raiser.
Another thing to consider is that AA and KK are the only hands you shouldn't be satisfied winning the blinds with (as pointed out in the "Essay" section). I'm assuming that one or two additional bets would be plenty of profit. Notice that once someone has raised, you are guaranteed at least three extra bets if you reraise and win the pot at some point. With this in mind, I almost always reraise to narrow the field, and try to win several bets from the raiser with these hands.
Greetings,
Here are a few hands where some criticized my play on the turn and the river.
These were all from the same 10/20 game.
1) I raise UTG, a maniac cold calls in late position as does the weak player in the BB.
FLop is A8 2 rainbow. BB check I bet call call .
The turn is an offsuit T.
I bet and get raised (weak player folds) , I reraise and he makes it 4 bets. I just called as a)I have seen this guy smooth call w/A's in situations like this (at least once that evening) b) he knows Im not going to three bet the turn w/o a huge hand, c) I think i was somewhat in shock as I have never been 4 bet on the turn before.
The river was a 2. I check and called.
2) I raise in midposition w/ AQo next player cold calls (a player who has noticed some of steal raises are w/suboptimal standards but didn't seem to notice they were steal raises (A2o, K7o)), and BB calls.
The flop is QQ x w/ two clubs.
Check, I bet call fold.
Turn is another small blank (not a club).
I bet and get raises, I reraise heh just calls.
River is Tc. I check and called.
3) Same player as in hand 2 raises UTG. I have AA in BB. All fold to me. I reraise (maybe this isn't neccesarily automatic, bc this wasn't a steal raise).
flop is 7 5 4 rainbow. I bet he calls.
Turn is another 7. I bet and get raised.
I call.
River is antther 5.
Again I check and called.
I should note I usually don't play this bad (weak), but having not played holdem in a while and get monster hands after monster hands (and showing them down to win), I was expecting when I was gettin this kind of heat I was behind.
Ill post the results later!
All comments appreciated.
One more:
4) I limp early w/ 33. 7 see the flop of
6 4 3 rainbow. I bet next calls next raises next reraises (an aggressive player who plays his draws aggressively), all fold to me I cap, all fold to aggressive player who calls.
Turn is 2 making a two flush. I check and call.
River is a blank not pairing the board. Again I check and call.
All comments appreciated! I post the results soon!
LOL, imo i think you lost all 5 hands.
TT in hand 1 .
Hand #3 - When you get raised when the boards pairs the 7's, I think your opponent was just slowplaying his big pair. I'd either re-raise here or check-raise the river.
1) 88 2)Ac2c 3) KK 4) 66.
Seems I need sexier titles to get mroe response but thanks for those who responded.
10-20 Online Holdem.
1) I get dealt KK in the cutoff. Early position raises, all fold to player on my right who calls. I reraise to get blinds out, but button calls. Everyone else calls. Flop comes Jc 8c 4h. Checked to me i bet, call, original raiser raises, call, i reraise, fold, ep caps, call, I call.
Turn is a 2s. He bets out, fold, I call. (should i raise here given his aggression on the flop?) this is my main question.
River pairs the 4. He checks I bet, he calls. I take the pot.
My main question is should I have popped him on the turn.
No.
No, since u dont know him...
He might hold AA or JJ or even 88 sometimes and would have played it exactly the same way.
Now, just write in a excel document that "Mr. X" cap the betting on the flop with nothing better than a pair in a shorthanded pot and be ready when youll face a situation like this again against this player!
Charlie
Middle limper, solid player raises from late, and I 3-bet from the sb with Ad,Ac. Both call.
The flop= 8h,4h,3s
I bet, both called.
The turn was a Qc
I bet, middle player called and late player raised. I re-raised, middle player called and late player capped it at 4 bets. I folded.
The river blanked. Check, bet, fold. Late player flashed QQ.
I'm trying not to be results orientated. How was my 3 bet on the turn? How was my fold getting 16 to 1? The fact I even need to ask these questions shows how much I have to learn. I question whether I possess the knowledge/experience to mix read with pot/implied odds when making these decisions. Thanks.
Kevin
I would give the late player some respect, though with that board I can't blame you for reraising. Maybe he had AQ??? But his 4 bet strongly suggests a set to me. Tough to lay down, I dunno if i would in this situation. But i think it would be the best play.
I certainly would have played it that strong....probably couldnt have laid it down either...but that is a hole in my game.
I would have played it the same way, but there is no way I would fold that hand. You are getting 17:1 on the turn, because the middle position player will almost surely call. You are only a 22:1 dog to hit an Ace on the river, and if that happens, you will make a lot of money on the river. That, combined with the chance that the capper has either 2 pair (in which case you have a ton of outs) or a hand like AhQh make this an easy call.
I'm a 22:1 dog getting (I counted 16:1) to hit an ace on the river, but I can't like the Ah. If I snag an As, I thought I could get maybe 2 more bets from QQ (and maybe not even that). I agree he could've had Ah,Qh. But I thought it was likely the first player had a suited Ah, which is why I am posting this hand. Does this mean I can figure I have 2 clean outs, since the Ah is likely in someone's hand? Thanks AFish.
22 TO 1 DOG AT BEST , 16 TO 1 ON YOUR MONEY , SOLID PLAYER RAISED, AS THE SOLID PLAYERS CHIPS HIT THE TABLE THE HAND WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCKED, HE OBVIOUSLY KNOWS WHO YOU ARE AND HOW YOU PLAY, RAISE FROM THE SMALL BLIND, YOUR LUCKY IT WASNT ME , I WOULD HAVE SMOOTH CALLED AND LET YOU DRAW TO YOUR 2 OUTER, BUT AS YOU KNOW THAT IS HOW I PLAY, THAT PLAY YOU MADE AGAINST M THE OTHER DAY WAS BRILLIANT, YOU ARE NOT FAR BEHIND THAT GUY IN WISCONSIN.GL2U MY FRIEND.
Thanks Sean, but I'm not so sure that I didn't make a poor play (only to get lucky), in the hand you are referring to. At the very least it was borderline. : ) See ya soon.
Kevin
Seems like everybody agrees your play on the turn. But not me.
I will call the raise on the turn, then check and call on the river. You already showed your strength. I read your post before, you have tendency to overlay the big pocket pair. Seems you have to make 3 or 4 bets on the flop or turn with big pair. Sometime you have to give some respect to other players.
Just my thought. Like your post
Interesting question. I agree that the Ace of hearts is not an out, as the cold caller must have it or be drawing to hearts. Your fold can't be wrong by much, if at all, but I would've called and check-called on the river, assuming the flush doesn't hit. After all, couldn't the raiser have KK, as well as AhQh? Still, if you know the player's aggressiveness, you may feel that the latter hand is unlikely.
Cero-
Actually, I thought the latter hand was more likely than KK. KK would've been a pretty tough 4 bet.
Thanks for commenting Reader. It probably seems that I tend to overplay big pairs, because that's when they end up here on 2+2 : ). But I don't always play them this strongly. Here, I thought re-raising had a couple of advantages. For one thing, I may still have the best hand. If so, I collect 2 more big bets from the flush draw. I also thought it might be a combination (2-way) re-raise. That is, the solid player might pay off with a worse hand, or he might fold if he held AA (rare, but possible). If he didn't have QQ, he'd have to be concerned about me having it. btw- I did have a great deal of respect for this player which I thought was mutual. That's why I folded for 4 bets.
Kevin,
I don't think I would have reraised the turn. I save that money for a river call and EXPECT to be shown QQ. Why try to drive out the limper(who likely is on a flush draw) when you're probably beat by the raiser? You said the pre-flop raiser was solid AND he has to put you on a big hand to 3 bet from the SB. If you 3 bet from the SB with AK or JJ then that's a different story. Otherwise, I think he has to put you on AA,KK. Knowing that, what would he check raise the turn with that you beat? Most likely nothing, possibly AhQh but I don't think so.
I think that is even more unlikely once he caps it. Therefore, I think you made a tough but correct laydown. If the limper flopped a set, he has played them horribly. It's highely likely he is on a flush draw therefore the Ah is either gone or not an out. The last Ace is probably your only out. 44:1?
I counted 17 BB in the pot, counting the big blind's dead money. I could be wrong. So I agree with your fold. I think it hinges entirely upon your assessment of the solid player.
Which might bring up another question: Would a solid player cap the turn with AhQh?
Nice post Kevin
Jamie
Jamie,
You asked: "Would a solid player cap the turn with AhQh?"
A lot of players described as solid in these threads have more gamble in them than you think. But perhaps there is a method to their madness.
Many “solid” players with AhQh might cap the turn, and in some case so would an AhQx along with a KhKx. The idea from the “solid” players perspective would be why not cap the turn since it will make it very unlikely the river would be bet unless a heart brings the middle player to life, and even then the middle player might check hoping the turn capper will bet the river. Then the solid player who capped the turn checks the river (unless he makes his flush with AhQh). In the end it costs the “solid” player the same, since it can't be that wrong to make the initial raise on the turn with any of the above hands, and a call of the reraise on the turn is mandatory with either AQ and only moderately wrong with the KK (remember, if the solid player has AhQx, he is likely to put the SB on KK rather than AA or QQ, and he has plenty of outs to this hand).
Regards,
Rick
Thanks for commenting Jamie- A couple of replies...
"Why try to drive out the limper(who likely is on a flush draw) when you're probably beat by the raiser?"
I wasn't trying to drive him out, but make him pay more for his draw. I also wasn't sure at this point that I had to be beat by the raiser.
"If you 3 bet from the SB with AK or JJ then that's a different story."
This was also part of my reason to 3-bet the turn. I felt I was slightly less predictable than the solid player. While I should be marked for a big pair from the sb after 3-betting pre-flop, I would still make this play with some other hands just often enough to where it would be a mistake to hold onto this read stubbornly. In other words, it wouldn't be often, but I still could have the hands you stated plus some others. btw- He didn't check/raise the turn, he raised and re-raised.
Thanks again Jamie.
This is a good one to think about away from the table. Suppose that the raiser has either AhQh or QQ, and that the caller is on a flush draw.
I did the following calculations on these assumptions:
Case 1) raiser has AhQh. You have seen 6 cards, and we have assumed what the raisers cards are specifically, and we are assuming that the caller has 2 hearts. This leaves 42 cards unaccounted for. 9 of of them make your hand a loser on the river (7 unaccounted for hearts and 2 queens). Assume that if any of these cards hits, that you will fold on the river.
So your EV for calling in this case is 17*34/42-9/42=13.1 big bets
Case 2) raiser has QQ. Assume if you call the turn, then you will call 1 bet on the river no matter what. I realize that you are smarter than that, but this will be sufficient for now. Also assume that if your hand is good that you will get two big bets on the end. You could quibble over this, but it hardly matters since you only have 1 out.
So your EV for calling in this case is 19*1/42-2*41/42=-1.5 big bets.
There are 3 ways the raiser could have QQ and one way he can have AhQh. and you are getting 13.1 to 1.5. So you should call.
Steve
Steve-
I greatly appreciate you're taking the time to provide me with these calculations. I have saved your response for further study!
Thanks again!
Kevin
He can have AhAs as well...
AhQh, AhAs or QQ.
lars
Kevin,
I'm convinced that if the results were not shown in your lead post and the question was “What do I do after the solid player caps the turn after I reraised?” we would have had many responses indicating that the best thing to do is call him down (unless a heart hits and the other player comes to life).
The assumptions that Steve Fiete makes in the thread are reasonable. I don't have time to check the math but it looks good at a glance. So I would call him down also, but would I have without looking at Steve's analysis :-).
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
I would have like to see the post without results too because that may have influenced my answer even I tried to not let it. I think in practice I would have not laid them down. Oh well, I talk a mean game. :)
Thanks,
Jamie Collins
I think you played it perfectly. Reminds me of a drastic hand the other night where the turn got capped and I was about to make a similar laydown, except on the river, and the pot was monstrously huge. Didn't have to cuz I hit instead!
I had QQ in the blind. UTG raised and six players called and I just called.
Flop: A-Q-x, two of a suit. (<-- We need a word that means that!)
Capped, five-way.
Turn: J
I bet, one fold and two call. The button raised. I three bet. One caller and the button capped it. No question, he had the straight. You'll have to trust me that this was certain, not just because I knew the player, but because, like you, I got four-bet on the turn. That's a pretty sure sign that improvement is needed. I was going to fold on the river if I didn't fill up.
River: I didn't fill up. I hit quads!
I bet, got called, and the button folded his straight while exposing it just a touch. No matter what had come on the river, one of us was going to make a good laydown. That's often how it is with capped turns.
Tommy
.
10-20 HE I've been getting crap the whole night and get dealt JJ in middle position. All fold to me i raise.
Next player calls, rest fold to poster who calls, rest fold.
Flop is 6 9 10. 2 hearts. I bet it out, get raised and reraised. Back to me i figure im up against a set or at least two pair so i fold. Turn Jh. River K. Winenr takes it down with two pair KTo. Reraiser had Jd8d. hmmm. i just sat down here, so should i have called 2 bets cold with jacks on the flop?
I would with an overpair since there are so many drawing hands out there when the flop contains both a two flush and a Ten-Nine. However, folding may not be far wrong since the Jack of Hearts may not be an out and any Jack puts three cards in a straight zone (J-T-9). There will be a significant percentage of the time when you are beat and the rest of the time when you are ahead you can be easily overtaken. In this specific example, any Queen or Seven beats you with two cards to come. If the winner had a single Heart, than at the river any Heart beats you that does not pair the board.
I am not sure I would beat myself up too much on this one.
I am having an extremely tough time with a 10-20 hand that I played recently. A good friend of mine thinks my play was crazy, so any comments would be appreciated.
We are seven-handed, and I am in the BB with AhJd. My read on several of the players is fairly strong and accurate. Middle position player open-raises. He is a loose raiser who will raise with many hands to open (as little as JT or any 2 suited), but will play quite straightforwardly after the flop. The button, another loose caller/bettor, calls the raise, as do I. Would *anyone* fold here?
Flop comes down Qh 4h Jd, giving me middle pair with an overcard kicker and backdoor flush possibility. I check. Preflop raiser now checks. This check is almost *definitely* not a slowplay, and I take it as an announcement that his hand has missed completely (although he may have a small pocket pair and decide to check-call). The button bets. In this spot, the button will bet any two cards, although I give him some sort of pair or draw since he did cold call the raise preflop. I consider check-raising, but rather decide to call, as I believe the preflop raiser's hand is basically hopeless or drawing quite thin (as he usually is). I call.
Turn: Qh 4h Jd 10c
I pick up a gutshot, with middle pair and an overcard kicker. I check, knowing for sure the turn will be bet by the button. Preflop raiser checks, button bets as predicted, I call, preflop raiser mucks. Would *anyone* have folded here?
River card is an ugly 9h. I check, and the button bets. I call, as he is quite capable of bluffing in this spot, especially being the aggressor. He shows KcJc and takes the pot. Would anyone have folded the river against this loose bettor?
Finally, in discussing the hand with my friend, I pointed out that my hand was in fact good on the flop and turn, making my calls appear correct. He argues that if I felt my hand was good, I should have put in a bet/raise somewhere along the line. My feeling was that since the button would bet many pairs/draws/A-high in this situation, the check-call seemed correct. If my hand was good I gain by letting the button bet it for me, and if I'm beat I avoid losing the maximum. I felt folding would have been extremely weak, except *maybe* on the river, but even then probably still.
Comments are *greatly* appreciated.
Thank you.
You played this hand like I would have liked you to play it if I was the button. You put no pressure back on the button to give him the opportunity to fold. Then he makes his straight on the end probably thinking he had the best hand all the way when you didnt play back on him. Playing the hand in the first place was ok against these type of players (an easy muck against a solid MP raise) only if your read on these 2 players were as you say. However you must also rememeber that you are out of position every round. I would have definitely popped him on the flop with 2nd high pair and best kicker with also the backdoor nut flush/straight draw. If he plays back at you then you can easily release your hand (although it is the best one) and your loss is only 4 small bets. If I have an accurate read on someone like you say you had, I believe a check raise on the flop was mandatory.
I would have played it aobut the way you did. You took essentially a bad beat. They happen. I might have bet out on the flop except the preflop raiser. I disagree with the other poster and I would not have check raised. The main reason is the fact that MP raiser MAY have QQ and slow playing it. You may in fact get three bet after your raise. What would you do then?
Just my thoughts. I dont think you misplayed the hand.
Yes, Matt, I see your point. MP pre flop raiser could have QQ. However, there are numerous hands a player of this caliber could check raise with that are far less than premium (QJ, KQ, etc...) Remember this is a seven handed game and MP has been observed to bring it in with a raise with any suited cards, then play fairly straight forward after the flop. Like I said before, if DD is 3-bet after his check raise on the flop, by either MP or the button, the hand can be easily released and his investment is only 4 small bets. I still think if he believes he has an acurate read on a player(s), the correct play in this situation would be to check raise the flop.
Where I play, when you turn over your jack of diamonds and there's another jack of diamonds on the board, everybody gets his money back. ;)
I would have checkraised the flop, since MP missed and the button would bet a lot of hands worse than yours. Assuming MP folded and the button called, I would have led on the turn and check called the river. Note that I don't see the button laying down the hand, so you were destined to lose money.
10-20, several loose players.
Two players (including the button) limp. I am in the SB with Qd9d, and I call half a bet. BB checks. Flop is Ah6dQh. I check, checked around to button who bets. I raise, all fold, button calls.
Turn card is the As. I bet, button calls.
River card is the 8d. I check, button bets, I call.
He shows Ad8c and takes the pot.
Comments?
He played awfully timidly. I would have had to raise at least on the river. What did he think you had?
Also, I dont like the check raise on the flop. The value of your hand is hitting your off card...the 9, going runner runner diamonds or tripping up. YOu want extra players in the field when you hit one of them. Unless you really were confident that the Q with a 9 kicker was the best hand, the raise is unadvised in my opinion.
Both of your messages today have mentioned very loose play. Don't think that because you catch a piece of the flop that you will always have the best of it with loose players. What could he have been calling you with? Most likely a weak ace (as he was). And even if it was a Q, you're most likely to be dominated with your 9 kicker. He may have not check raised you on the turn thinking you would fold but would bet out on the river and get you for a raise then. I agree with Matt on this one.
I would have just check-folded on the flop. The second best play would be to bet out. Check-raising is a mistake, because there is not enough of a chance that you will win the pot with that move.
The two suited board makes it more likely that the bettor will have a flush draw. This plus the chance that you are against and A is too much to go after this small pot with a check-raise.
Steve
In loose games, many people play any Ace. Accordingly, I would assume that I am behind on the flop. When I'm behind and have no chance of driving out everyone, I just check call. That is what I would have done here. There are enough potential outs (hitting 2 pair, trips, or a runner runner flush) to make it correct to take another card. I would have folded on the turn.
i would of just folded after the flop you were dominated the whole time. your raise just killed your pot odds that you needed to be in the hand to begin with
i was wondering what what hand you would call out of the the small blind.
1. small suited connectors
2. medium suited connectors
3. Face card and a medium card unsuited
4. Face card and a medium card suited for 3and4 how high of a face card do you call with
5. face and a small card
i thank you all for your answears in advance
I'm no expert, but I'm sure the answer depends on the the number of players already in the pot to make it worthwhile to call in the SB. Of course, I'm assuming that there has been no raising. If we assume that there have already been 5 or 6 limpers and that the BB doesn't raise much, then I'd probably call with (2) medium suited connectors and (4) at least a Qxs. The only other cards from your list that I'd consider calling with are (1) small suited connectors if there are more than 6 limpers. These are mainly drawing hands that can potentially hit the nuts and are most profitable when there are a lot of players. Of course, these drawing hands can also become expensive.
P.S. I probably wouldn't call with A-rag offsuit. You didn't put this in your list. Are you assuming that A-rag offsuit is an automatic call here?
no i don't play it
With 3+ limpers and a passive BB:
I would play any two suited, 54+, 75+, T7+, Ax, K8+, Q9+, and any pair.
With 2 limpers and a passive BB:
I would limit it to 54s+, 75s+, T7s+, Axs, Kxs, Qxs, 54, 97, J8, Ax, K8+, Q9+, and any pair.
With only 1 limper and a passive BB:
I would limit it to 54s+, 75s+, Axs, K8s+, Q9s+, 76+, T8+, A9+, KT+, and any pair.
If the BB is aggressive, I would tighten up considerably.
when do you play Ax suited,
I usually play it in middle late position in an unraised pot. The reason i ask is because it has not been a very profitable play for me. Actually i have not hit a flush with one in over 30 hours. I think that i have hit one or two flushes in that time but thats besides the point.
It depends on the game you play in. If you play in a loose passive game you can play A-xs from any position. As the game gets tighter/more aggressive it's best to play it from later positions.
If playing it early you must play well post flop. Be prepared to dump it if you flop top pair and meet resistance.
In a passive game i will play A4s or A5s up front, but if there is much raising i want 4 or 5 callers in first before i call.
I play 3-6, 6-12, and 9-18 about two times a week at Lucky Chances in Colma. I've been doing fairly well as of late, usually taking home at least a rack in the 3-6 and 6-12 games after one to three hours of play. My profitability at 9-18 has not been as good (about half a rack in the same time frame). Playing my tight/aggressive "A" game has really built up my confidence level and I feel that I'm ready to take a shot at the next level.
For those of you who play at the 20-40 level at LC, could please give me some pointers. For example, are the players a lot tougher than at the 9-18 level? Are they tighter and more aggressive? I notice that some of the players there are guys that I've played with before in the lower limit games. Any need to make big ajustments in my strategy?
Also, how much should I buy-in for and how much money should I bring altogether? I was thinking for a $500 buy-in with maybe an extra couple hundred in my pocket. Does this sound reasonable?
Your comments are much appreciated.
I always buy in for a min. of 25 BB regardless of the game. In a 20/40 game that's $1000. The surest chip burner is having too few chips and always being on the verge of going all in.
The game is typically much looser and more aggressive than 9-18. You will get bluffed often, anyone coming in first near the button will raise, etc.
The variance increase can be stunning, more than just the multiple of dollars. Even our resident pros take many $1K plus hits over short periods. So how much you buy in depends very much on two factors:
1. How much you have in your bankroll 2. How hard is it going to be emotionally / tilt wise for you to take three consecutive losses of x dollars.
Having done it 6 weeks ago with $1,000 buy-ins, I recommend $600 and going home when you're down to $120 or less. This is roughly buying in for a rack at 6-12, an amount of chips you know how to manage. Also, I'd wait til you're running well one night at 6-12 or 9-18 so you're only out $200-300 if you go broke. Hold off on swinging for the fences until you've built your confidence, medium limit game, and bankroll.
And lastly, read HEPFAP again. It was written for that limit (albeit a somewhat tighter game) and will remind you to delete several loose game adjustments that you've had to make to be successful at those crazy 6-12 games and to make some changes in your play of medium pairs, AJ, etc.
Good luck!
$700 is less than 20 BB. I think this is very short, even for "taking a shot." My SD is 12 BB/hr, which means I can only count on being in the game for about 2 hours.
My advice is to stick with the 9-18 until you:
1) have demonstrated a 1+ BB/hr rate over at least 200 hours.
2) have a BR of over 10k.
But if you do take a shot, knock 'em dead! :-)
Zooey
Jace,
Please do come up and say hi!
The biggest thing you have going against you, which happens to be the biggest thing I have going for me, is game selection. It takes time to get to know the players.
I like Matt's idea of hopping in the 20-40 after you already won a rack at the smaller games. Yeah, it shouldn't matter, but it does, having a recent cushion.
Your toughest opponent will not be the other players, it will be yourself. Moving up is scary. I know that from dropping down and back up about a hundred times. lol
Many of the players see many flops but do not underestimate their trickiness or hand-reading ability. You will be sizing up dozens of players over a short time frame. They only have to focus on one, you. Again, an inherent hurdle.
General advice: Play the tightest game you've ever played until you get to know the players. Buy-in for two racks, don't grimace when you take a bad beat, be strong and look strong.
Tommy
Tommy,
We've actually seen each other before, but have never really spoken to each other. I'll be sure to introduce myself the next time I see you.
In fact, we were on the same table in one of LC's weekly no limit tourneys a while back. I remember the floorman saying that you wrote an article in one of the recent poker magazines. You were really friendly at the table and I made some light-humored remark about your large chip stack (especially pointing out the many $5 chips that you had). Believe it or not, I remember the one hand that you and I were in heads-up. I raised about 2x the BB with pocket 10s and you made it about 5x the BB to go. I pondered for a moment and called. The flop came JQx and I checked. You pushed all-in and I folded, putting you on AQ or better. I sure as hell hope that you weren't bluffing...LOL! The only hand I could have beat was AK and I wanted no part of that hand anymore. I wonder what would have happened if I pushed all-in first!
I went to your Web site and I think your articles are hilarious. Keep up the great work! For those of you who haven't been there, the URL is:
http://hometown.aol.com/tomium/
Thanks Jace.
Sorry I don't remember the hand from the tourny, but it smells like a bluff from here.
See you soon,
Tommy
You have to have at least a thousand dollars with you to play 20-40, if you ask me. If you can't afford to lose 1000 dollars then DON'T play 20-40. 20-40 is a big step up from 9-18.
Have you tried 10-20 or 15-30?
I won't play in a game unless I have at least 25BB with me and I usually buy in for that amount. I prefer to have 50BB on hand.
If you play with scared money or short money you will lose it.
-SmoothB-
To all you guys that responded,
Thanks for the quick responses. In regards to bankroll, losing a couple grand will not put me in a bad financial situation. (Of course, I don't like the prospects of losing something like three to four grand in the next couple of days.) I wouldn't say that the buy-in issue is a big deal for me, but it does make me think. I wouldn't be playing with scared money, but I do have to reconsider how much money to bring. I really like the strategy of starting out at 6-12 or 9-18 and if I do well, take those stacks to the bigger game. If my schedule permits, I think I'll drop by tomorrow and give it a shot. Wish me luck and I hope to see of you guys there! Just don't pick on the newbie too much...lol!
Im in the early middle position with AKd
utg raises(fairly tight solid player, straight forward player)
I reraise, everyone folds flop is Qc 9c 3s
utg checks I bet he calls At this point i figure him for the same hand as I have but at least one clover.
the turn is a kc he bets out i call ( this confirms my suspicion and i call.
River is a 6c
he bets out What do you do now?
Mathematically, he has the Ac 1/3 of the time, assuming he started with AK. Pokerwise, he has the Ac 95% of the time. He can see those four clubs too and is probably playing you for AQ.
Hey the pot is pretty small so go with your read and fold.
Regards.
Here's a hand from a discussion group that is creating a lot of heat. How would you play it?
Your seated on the button in a fairly tight 15/30 game. The table is relatively fish-free; everyone is at least a decent player. There are 2 callers to you and you raise with AA. Both blinds and limpers call. Pot is $150.
Flop K-Q-J with 2 hearts (your aces are black)
SB (a tight unimaginative player) leads out. BB calls, 1st limper raises, 2nd limper cold calls. $240 in pot and $30 to you. What's your action? The 1st limper is fairly aggressive and would have open raised with AK, KQ or anything that makes a set.
Well it's very likely one or both of my remaining aces are in other players hands, and very unlikely a raise on my part will chase anyone from the pot. I think I'm already beat and if not, certainly a dog to the field, so I fold up shop here.
Winger,
Here is my very brief take. It is almost certain you are beat now and your outs might be at best for half the pot when a ten falls or make you expensive second best when an ace falls (giving a ten a straight). If the board pairs on the turn you might beat two pair but you could also get beat by trips or a full. You are facing heat and will probably continue to do so throughout the hand. You also do not have a backdoor heart draw and a heart could make one of four opponents a flush.
I think it is an easy fold and wonder what the debate is about.
Regards,
Rick
easy fold i think
You're likely (very) to be beat. Not many outs. Figure at least 1 player is on a str8 draw and another Ace out there.
Maybe playing for 1/2 or 1/3 if you get lucky and hit a T.
Fold
Too many bad things can happen on the turn and river and not enough good ones. If a heart or any card 9 or higher comes, your aces don't look too good. And it;s likely at least one of your aces is not available, and if one comes on the turn, you're likely still in 2nd place.
I can't think of a reason to play.
I don't see a debate here either. The flop is limpers' paradise. The original bettor is still to act so even the two bets cold to you is an uncertain price. Get on with it. Next hand.
Regards.
You simply fold. To many ways to get beat.
I think the pot is big enough to take a card off even given all of the negative factors (yes I know I'm calling a raise cold on the flop).
A clear fold is not that easy. Let's analyze this hand a bit. You really only have three clear outs (assuming that 10h will lose to a flush) to win or split the pot. With 47 unseen cards, you have 3:44 odds of making your hand (approx 1:15. The blinds will more than likely call because it will only be $15 more to see the turn card. The pot then becomes $270. If you call, you will be getting 1:9 odds. But wait, how do you know that your overpair is currently not the best hand? If you have some knowledge about the players in the pot (in this case you do from what Winger has already mentioned), 1st limper may have top pair with a straight draw (making you the favorite). 2nd limper who cold call two bets knowing that the raiser (you) has yet to act is more concerning. He could have a flush draw, a pair and an openended straight draw, a set (he would likely to have raised coming in--QQ or JJ--or reraise with KK's), a flush and a straight draw, two pairs. Any made straight in this spot would likely to reraise to protect against a flush draw unless the holding is the dreaded Ah10h. Clearly a "clear" fold is not so easy. A cold call in this spot is still subjected to more raises unless I am fairly confident that the blinds would only call. A reraise would likely eliminate the blinds thus narrowing the pot down to three, possibly give you more information on your opponents' hands, and put pressure on drawing hands. Note: I would not make this play if I did not have position. To summarize, I would fold 80%, reraise 10%, and call 10%. This changes with the type of players that I am involved with and my read on them. Sorry for the long rumination :) Quan
One thing is that if the small blind hit it again and the action was really fast on the flop you always have the option of folding when it gets back to you.
Fold it. Your only out is a ten.
Thanks to all the respondents. I too agree that it was a clear fold. The fact that you must be beat and the betting is not nearly done makes this obvious. Your responses won me lunch.
I was in the BB with 9-10. The button was a good but overly aggressive player. He decided to raise in an attempt to get a free card on the turn. I 4 bet when the SB called. Turn blanked. I bet out and got called by all. River brought a 10 and the button chopped it with the ace high flush draw.
After playing (almost) exclusively 20-40 and 40-80 for years, I've been playing some 15-30 at AJ's lately.
I called one chip from the SB with some hands I'd muck in a flash from the SB at 20-40. I think the one-chip-SB-call serves as an equalizer between various levels of play since it causes the snug player to make the same choice as the lose player more often. This is precisely why I rarely play 3-and-6 chip games, because of this and other ramifications of the blinds.
Three times the BB raised and I folded my SB all three times. Calling in the SB and folding to a BB raise is a reasonable play at 20-40. I'd think it should be FAR more common at 15-30. Is this right?
Any other specific differences (leaving actual cards out of it) that I should consider at 15-30 resulting from the blinds?
Tommy
2/3 chip games have a fundamentally different dynamic. As Sklansky eloquently stated in TOP, "All of poker begins as a struggle for the blinds" (or something like that). Specifically, since the amount of blind $ is greater in 2/3 chip games, there is greater incentive for aggression. this means you should lower your standards for steal raises, you should more frequently 3-bet a late position raiser b/c he has likely loosened his raising standards, etc. (It going without saying that you defend from the blinds more, much more from the SB and marginally more from the BB).
Anon,
I believe your post is correct in theory and is probably true in practice in cardrooms that spread one of these structures (but not the other); however, I believe there is an interesting phenomenon here in Los Angeles that runs contrary to your theory.
Years ago (around 1990) the 10/20 was popular along with the 15/30. The next jump was usually to 30/60. 20/40 was usually spread only when bigger tournaments (attracting the Las Vegas players) were in town. At that time the 15/30 played much bigger than the 10/20 and the 20/40 played only a little bigger than the 15/30 when it was spread. This would make sense in theory.
However, in casinos such as Hollywood Park, the typical 15/30 usually plays much less aggressive and somewhat tighter than the adjoining 20/40 games. I think the reason is the next jump up is to 40/80 so the mid limit yellow ($5) chip games max out at 20/40 so the players itching to gamble (but find 40/80 to big) gravitate towards the 20/40.
Regards,
Rick
PS Hollywood Park does have the only 10/20 game in town, but it is populated by a small and loyal player base and is located outside the rail of “top section”. That game is moderately tight (but not tough) by Los Angeles standards.
Rick,
Since you have moved the conversation from the theoretical to the practical, I will throw in another irrational consideration....
I have noticed that the 20/40 games played with primarily red ($5) chips tend to be better games than 20/40 games with primarily green ($25) chips. The reason for this is that pots with 5X as many chips in them look larger and thus encourage some people to chase when they shouldn't (I think that chasing when you shouldn't is a more common mistake for players in general than folding when you should chase). Since 2/3 chip games tend to involve a larger number of chips than 1/2 chip games in general, I think that, other things being equal, this makes 2/3 chip games better.
Regards,
Anon
Anon
Where do they play 20/40 with $25 chips? I've seen them on the table in Las Vegas but most players seem to use the $5 chips for bets.
Your comments concerning pots that have lots of chips in them loosening up the game are right on. In my experience most 5/10 games played with $5 chips play smaller than a 4/8 game played with $1 chips. Here in Los Angeles the 6/12 holdem games replaced the 5/10 holdem about six or seven years ago. The game is played with green $2 chips and has lots of action. The Normandie Club used to use $5 and $1 chips and their 6/12 game didn't do well until they finally broke down and bought $2 chips.
Regards,
Rick
And do you think I can convince the local cardrooms managers of that, Rick? I have literally begged them to at least put up a 6-12 list, and if patrons see that the game is at least being offered, they might get some players gravitating to the room because there might be a chance that a game a little bigger than 3-6, but smaller than 15-30 might get spread.
So what do they do? They put up a 5-10 list. They actually got a game going one day last week, and it was like watching paint dry. Only a few chips in the game, and very little action. And it's not the players. This is the same crowd that has no problem jamminh up the 4-8 O/8 game and 3-6 when they play.
Put lots of chips in the pots, and it's like moths to the light.
Dunc,
They are probably too cheap to buy the $2 chips :-).
Regards,
Rick
Rick's right: there's no question that, in L.A., the 15/30 is a much less aggressive game than the 20/40. I agree that it has nothing to do with the blind structure, but is rather a function of the level of sophistication of the players who play in the game: there are many players who have moved up from the next largest game (9-18).
As further evidence of this, I offer the fact that 30-60 is a much more aggressive game than 20-40. Most of the players who play 30-60 also play 40-80 (and higher) and thus tend to be more aggressive. Many of the players who play 20-40 will play no higher.
So a 2/3 ante game (15-30) is much less aggressive than a 1/2 ante game (20-40), yet at an overlapping level, a 1/2 ante game (20-40) is much less aggressive than a 2/3 ante game.
I think this counteracts the mathematics involved. In 15-30, you're simply going to have a lot more opportunities to play for 1/3 of a bet more than you are going to have opportunities to play for 1/2 bet more in 20-40 because the pots are raised less often. But in 30-60 you're going to have a lot less opportunities to play for 1/3 of a bet more than you are going to have opportunities to play for 1/2 bet more in 20-40.
I don't know about AJ's, but I also think that the largest game in the house can sometimes have a lot more looser, poor players in it than the 2nd largest. I haven't played in No. Calif much ( I assume AJs is Artichoke Joes), but I remember that at the Oaks the largest game on the 3 occasions I played there (I believe it was 15-30) was filled with much weaker players than the 2nd largest game. This was a much big ger factor in deciding how many hands to play from the small blind than the mathematics involved.
Andy,
From your posts I gather you play a lot at the Commerce. Although it is about the closest to me, I avoid it as the tables are too close together. I hope this changes when and if they complete their expansion, but I have my doubts.
I think the Commerce 30/60 does siphon off some of the more aggressive 20/40 players. At Hollywood Park (which does not spread 30/60), my comments are probably more applicable.
Regards,
Rick
PS Do you think the Commerce is kept so cold in order to keep people who stay up for three days at a time awake?
I understand that 9-18 and higher will be in the new section, so you may be right that the tables will still be close together.
We always joke that you can be blindfolded, driven to a card club, be plopped down in a seat, have the blindfold taken off, and tell where you are, when you're at Commerce, because 90% of the players are wearing jackets. The top section is beyond cold, it's frigid. I like seats 1 & 9, but there are some tables at which you cannot sit in those seats unless you want frostbite.
Good point Andy, about the games getting more aggressive up the ladder. And you're right about AJ's. It's extra lose because it's the biggest game.
Tommy
Tommy,
For the most part I split my time between 20/40 and 15/30 here in Los Angeles. Here are some brief thoughts about small blind play with garbage to mediocre hands in the 15/30 in situations where you are NOT facing a probable steal raise.
In an unraised pot with about three to six opponents, it may be correct to call with anything as some advocate but I find I fold offsuit hands as good as Q5, J6, T5, 94, 83, and 72. However, I will call with the slightly stronger 84 and 73 since they can flop a straight. If I'm wrong, I'm only a little wrong, OTOH, the situation comes up quite often so I would appreciate comment.
In an unraised pot with two or three opponents (e.g., there are one or two limpers and an un-aggressive blind), I call with anything. Now many of my wins will come when opponents flop or turn nothing so there are many opportunities for pure bluffs.
In an unraised pot with six or more opponents, it is probably correct to call with anything. Your good to very good flops with something like 72 offsuit include two pair, trips and fulls; however, they are either vulnerable or don't get much action so even here they may be worth a fold. In any event, this situation is so uncommon (even here in Los Angeles) that it probably isn't worth discussing.
In a raised pot with several opponents I think many players bleed away money by calling with FAR too many hands, including many they wouldn't think of calling in 20/40. So in this sense the weaker player makes huge mistakes in the small blind at this structure. I believe this mistake more than makes up for their somewhat automatic “correct” play of calling one chip in an unraised pot.
You wrote: ” Calling in the SB and folding to a BB raise is a reasonable play at 20-40. I'd think it should be FAR more common at 15-30. Is this right?”
I'm assuming you mean calling and then tossing after several limpers are in. In this case, of course this is right. But if you have a big blind that often raises then you have an aggressive player on your left. I would take a seat change ;-). Head up play and defense against steal raises are another matter that I'll leave to others.
Anyway, good post and I hope you get some more comments.
Regards,
Rick
While I agree you would call with more hands for one chip in 15-30 vs two chips in 20-40, I wouldn't take it this far. With 6 or more callers, calling with anything (like 72) is really asking for trouble. When people are playing that loose, you are likely to run into a larger two pair, three of a kind with a better kicker, and lots of straights and flushes.
I would be more inclined to call with hands like T9, 97, 87, etc. The three-gappers can also mean big trouble as when you make a straight, it is very easy for someone to have a bigger straight. I might be a little looser with suited cards, but if there are lots of callers, you still stand a chance of losing to a larger flush.
In short, play looser from the SB, but don't overdo it. Remember, you still have the worst position, and you want a good hand to ovecome that disadvantage. When it comes to calling raises, you need a REALLY good hand, so in general, don't call raises. And to answer Tommy's question, don't be afraid to throw it away if you called one chip, and then are faced with calling more when the BB raises.
One more thing: While some of these loose calls might be correct in a LA 15-30, most of them would be wrong in a LV 30-60 where the players are much tougher and will make you pay more for draws when you flop them. Play tighter against better players.
For the record, I think my one-chip-calling standards will remain a touch higher than Rick suggested. It's the thoughts behind the decision I needed to hear about, and did.
I'm not convinced (as Rick said) that players call the SB to a raise at 15/30 with the same hands they would fold to a raise at 20/40. But that might be a function of the local players, not a difference between 15/30 and 20/40 in general.
Tommy
3-Bet Brett,
You wrote: ”While I agree you would call with more hands for one chip in 15-30 vs two chips in 20-40, I wouldn't take it this far. With 6 or more callers, calling with anything (like 72) is really asking for trouble. When people are playing that loose, you are likely to run into a larger two pair, three of a kind with a better kicker, and lots of straights and flushes.”
You make good points here. But if you do call there is no doubt you need to play well post flop. Not calling can't hurt your expectation much, and certainly should hold down your swings.
”I would be more inclined to call with hands like T9, 97, 87, etc.”
Gee 3-Bet, these are obvious calls for one chip! What would you consider the borderline calls against two to five limpers?
”The three-gappers can also mean big trouble as when you make a straight, it is very easy for someone to have a bigger straight. I might be a little looser with suited cards, but if there are lots of callers, you still stand a chance of losing to a larger flush.”
You might be right about three-gappers, but I think calling one chip with any two suited is automatic.
”When it comes to calling raises, you need a REALLY good hand, so in general, don't call raises.”
This is great advice, “in general” ;-).
”One more thing: While some of these loose calls might be correct in a LA 15-30, most of them would be wrong in a LV 30-60 where the players are much tougher and will make you pay more for draws when you flop them. Play tighter against better players.”
This is also great advice and applies in reverse. Play looser against bad players. For example, Q9 offsuit on the button MAY be an OK call if you have an opponent on your right who limped and practically plays his hand face up ;-).
Regards,
Rick
Borderline hands would be 97, 96, 86, 85,... down to 54. When I wrote that, I thought 97 and 87 were marginal, and I still wouldn't play them most of the time. I still wouldn't call with most of these hands, and I wouldn't call with any two suited cards either. I would be more likely to call with K2o than 72s (or 82s). But I probably wouldn't call with that either. I prefer to have a good hand before getting involved, especially in early position.
You often use the expression, "it can't be that wrong." With only 52 cards in the deck, not many decisions are "that wrong." But they're wrong enough to make a difference in the long run. If you really feel the need to limp in with trash from the SB in 15-30, stick to 20-40 where you'll be forced to play better.
I would much rather limp in with 52s for one more chip than K2o. For one chip, 52s can flop a heck of a draw. Where as K2o is more than likely dominated.
Now K2o vs 72s is marginal. I would probably rather have 72s, and I would drop unless I flopped a flush draw, two pair or trips.
The reason why I would play any 2 suited for 1/3 of a bet is that the flush draw alone is worth a 1/3 of a bet.
If there are 3 callers, then your getting 13-1 odds on your 1/3 of a bet. Your going to flop 2 pair, trips, or a flush draw around 15% of the time, or 7-1. This is a huge overlay.
Good post! I like all your ideas, especially the one about how low to place the bar when calling one chip. The difference between 8-3 and 8-4 is noted and appreciated.
Tommy
First I am sorry I know this is not exactly right place to post my question. I am just wondering how much average pro poker players make in a year--like people who play 20-40..accasional tonarment ect. Is there many people who makes more than 100,000? Just curious, because to me it seems like if they do not make at least 50,000 a year it is just not worth it since it is alot of stress and hours. You can make more in regular job if you work that much and with your brain. Just my thought. My apology again for this dumb post.. but I am really curious...
In my book POKER ESSAYS there are estimates as to what you can make in the different games.
Since you say average, my guess is that the average $20-$40 pro makes about $20 per hour. The best players, and there are only a handful of these can do a little better than $40 per hour. (Note: Many of these best players are now playing higher.)
Mason,
Would this average pro be better off in 15-30 or 10-20, or would he make even less than 1 bb/hr in those games?
Would this average pro be better off working as the manager of a mcdonalds or kinkos?
fess up mason, how much do you make per hour playing the 30-60 at bellagio?
I would say he makes close to $50/hr. Maybe $55. I was told this by somebody that plays with Mason quite often, and that was his guess as to what Mason pulls out of the 30/60 game.
wanta be a pro card player: have a rich wife...want to be a top pro: have a rich wife who works....gl
Well, all I know is that its really hard to make 50 bucks an hour playing Hold'em for a living, but its damn easy to make 50 bucks an hour writing software. And both are about equally as fun. So, guess which one I do as a hobby and guess which one I do as a profession?
Plus, that 50 bucks an hour playing hold'em comes with no benefits, no 401k, no stock options, no bonuses, and the paycheck comes every two weeks like clockwork. Also, I dont have to maintain a 50k bankroll. I can put that money in the stock market and get my 12% a year on it on top of the 50 bucks an hour.
Although some Hold'em players do get a better deal on taxes, but that is another subject!
I doubt if most people would agree that writing software is as much fun as playing poker. I'd put the ratio at 4-1. If I was making $50/hour playing poker, I'd need $200/hour for writing software to make me indifferent.
I wish I was getting 12%/year in the market. In fact, I wish I was only losing 12%/year :)
Actually, I like writing software more than playing poker. But since I do it 50 hours a week at work, it can sometimes get old.
Good subject. Here is my spin as someone who writes software for ALOT more than $50/hr:
The actual writing part may have been as much fun as poker at one time, but there is other stuff that goes into it that makes it less fun. After many years it becomes routine, and a change of pace is needed. You also have to contend with people who may not be as talented as you. You also don't have complete freedom of time.
You can argue that poker will become old too, but I think that it actually gets better with time as you advance in level and learn to play different games and against different opponents. In a sense, poker is all the time what software is at its best - a pure problem which must be thought through and solved.
No, poker probably won't allow you to save effectively for retirement, but you are already retired if you are doing what you want. Even a job as good as mine won't allow you to become independently wealthy very quickly, and it takes many years before you can retire, maybe after you are too old to completely enjoy the freedom. Poker can provide the freedom of time to pursue other things such as writing the software I want to write rather than what others dictate, thus making poker my job and software my hobby. Then maybe I can sell that software for a whole lot more than I even make now. Maybe I can even go IPO and make millions.
I'm not trying to convince anyone to play poker rather than pursue a software career. That would be completely irresponsible. Engineering and software have been very very good to me, and for someone starting out with the talent and aptitude for it I can think of no better career in this era. I'm just giving you my unique perspective at the moment.
Let's just say that I've been running good lately.
We would all like to know, but don't expect an answer to be in detail. What I would also like to know is why Mason has never progressed to the higher limits. I don't bring this up to be rude or mean, I would really like to know why he doesn't play higher like David does. Is it because he hasn't been able to build his bankroll enough to play higher, or because he doesn't do well against better opponents, or ? I don't know the answer, but I've always been curious.
In the early 1980s I did play higher, and was successful. But somehow I got into the publishing business, and my role has been different from David. What that meant was that I spent much more time and effort writing and producing the books, and I could not concentrate full time on my poker game. This is finally beginning to change and I am playing more this year than the past couple, and I may begin to play higher sometime in the future.
By the way, and I want to be very clear on this, if I did not win in the poker games, there would have been no Two Plus Two Publishing LLC.
3 Bet Brett, my national standards $30-$60 is a big game. You can win or lose two or three thousand dollars in a single 6-8 hour session quite easily. I have seen some of the regulars lose almost $5000 in a single session.
At the Bellagio, the next higher game above $30-$60 is $80-$160. This is a monster game. You can lose 10-15 grand in a single playing session.
My point is that there are many excellent players like Roy Cooke who are comfortable at $30-$60 and do not need the stress associated with playing in a game like $80-$160. Running bad in a game this big over an extended period of time would cost tens of thousands of dollars and be very difficult to get back by stepping down to a lower limit.
As an aside, about a year ago I asked one of the Bellagio floormen why they did away with $60-$120 and replaced it with $80-$160. He did not know exactly but he suspected that one of the reasons was to make the jump from $30-$60 to the high limit area so large that players like Roy Cooke, Mason Malmuth, and others would not be "working" the higher limit games. However, this was pure speculation on his part.
Jim Brier, I'm glad you let me know how much a person could lose at 30-60. I guess I've just been lucky. Even when I'm running bad, I've never dropped $5000 in that game or 40-80. I've never even lost that much at 80-160, but I don't play that game very much. It's populated by thrill seekers like John F.
My point is that you don't need to educate me. I know the risks involved. But since Sklansky plays 80-160 and 200-400, I wondered why MM plays 20-40 and 30-60. Cooke avoids risk, and he has admitted that he doesn't have the heart for the game that he did when was younger. I think he would have a hard time beating the 80 game at Bellagio.
Your floorman (Paul?) is wrong. Players like Cooke and Malmuth are a threat, but Sklansy and Martin are not? Try again. Especially at Bellagio, the best players play in the higher limit games. The 60-120 was spread when B first opened, and was replaced by 100-200 just because the players wanted to play higher. I think they went down to 80-160 to entice more players to play, and because there is usually more action at that limit due to the number of chips in play. Also, I'm sure that several players went broke playing 1-2. 60-120 is still spread when the WSOP is going on.
My reason for bringing this up is to examine why excellent playersplay at mid rather than high limits. Is it because the higher limits are too tough, or because they don't have the necessary bankroll, or they realize that poker is very risky and they don't want to put that much money on the line? I think the last reason is the real reason. Poker is gambling, and even if you are an excellent player, there is no gaurantee that you will win.
I think the reason why players don't regularly move from 30/60 to 80/160, like they do from 15/30 to 30/60 is exactly why Jim posted. It's all about bankroll protection.
- Andrew
Due to the blind structure there is not much difference between the size of a $60-$120 game versus an $80-$160 game. The blinds are a total of $100 versus a total of $120.
I'll make you a deal. :-) I won't impose my priorities on you if you'll return the courtesy.
I've made 95% of my income for ten years from playing poker. Am I rich? No. Will I ever be? No. Have I felt and acted and travelled and lived like a retired person for a decade, 30 years ahead of the usual schedule? Yes. And it ain't so bad.
As to stress, that's a funtion of the person, not the activity. I can't imagine anything less stressful, for me, than non-reliance.
Side note: Record-keeping and big-bets-per-hour and standard-deviation just don't jive with my personality. I can't think that way. But obviously lots of other people do. Do I tell them they are "wrong?" Of course not. Do they tell me that the fundemntal hardwiring of my brain, and the resulting outlook, are "wrong?" Well, yes, they do. Go figure.
Tommy
For a long time, I knew I was a winner if I had more in my pocket on the way home than I started with. Now I keep records, and it can be depressing. I've been thinking about going back to the old way. There's nothing worse than getting tortured for several hours then having to record the session results.
Yes there is. Getting tortured for several months.
How do you get a professional poker player off your doorstep?
Pay him for the pizza....
Derek
What I am wondering is why anyone would want to rip anyone for the limit they play. Frankly, I was encouraged by the news that Mason plays 30-60. When I traveled to Vegas recently I was hoping for the opportunity (privilege ?) to play against him. If he played 80-160 I would have known that was not something that would occur. I am a regular 20-40 half kill player. Stepping up to 30-60 was not that big of a stretch.
For some time I was a 3-6 player and was very successful winning 3 big bets per hour. Many times people asked why I didnt step up....stepping up here meant moving to the 20-40 game. I didnt have the backroll or the stomach to handle the losses at the time. While I am very successful at 20-40, the losses are still hard to stomach. If tomorrow I were playing for a living, I would play lower more often and reduce the risk. Not relying on my poker earnings to feed my family frees me up to take some risks that would not be acceptable if it were otherwise.
Coming in with a raise UTG holding T-T i was reraised from a pretty good player on the button. The blinds folded so it was 2-handed. The flop comes A-K-2 with 2 hearts . I bet planing to fold for a raise when the button turned over 2 Queens and folded. How you think about my bet ?
Straightforward bet against a decent player (and perfect flop to do it). Assume he reraises with JJ,QQ,KK,AA,AK, you have to guesstimate the probability he will fold with JJ,QQ on the flop. This probability needs only to be greater than 23/(7.5*8) for the flop bet to be profitable. This is the case against many players.
Please explain your numbers; I get something very close but slightly different:
There are 12 ways he can hold JJ,QQ and 15 ways he can hold KK,AA,AK since A and K are on the flop. The probability that he holds JJ,QQ times the probability that he will fold it must equal 1/6.5 since there are 5.5 bets in the pot. So (12/27)*x = 1/6.5 so x = .35. Your calculation gives .38 but I don't understand it. What is 23, 7.5, and 8? I am ignoring draws.
I see now that there were acutally 7.5 bets in the pot which explains that number, but now my equation becomes (12/27)x = 1/8.5 so x = .26. Even farther away from your answer.
sorry the correct answer is 27/(12*7.5)=0.3
The ev of a flop bet is (12/27)*p*7.5 - 1.
No, the ev of a flop bet is
(12/27)*p*7.5 - (13/27)-(12/27)*(1-p)
This reduces to (12/27)*p*8.5 - 1 which is my equation.
No, the ev of a flop bet is
(12/27)*p*7.5 - (15/27) - (12/27)*(1-p)
which reduces to (12/27)*p*8.5 - 1 which is my equation.
I feel bad you are right next time I will review my posting more carefully. Thanks for correcting me.
He might should have called you down. Assuming your UTG raising standards are AA-TT, AK, AQ. Then you have him beat 27 times, and he has you beat 12 times.
Throw in the chances of him improving and he wins around 35% of the time.
If he wins, he wins 10.5 to 12.5 bets (depending on whether you would have bet the river), if he loses, he loses 5 bets. So it is a +EV play to call you down.
This all assumes you would bet the flop with any of your pre-flop raising hands, so maybe it was to his advantage to fold considering your more likely to bet with AA/KK/AK/AQ than with JJ/TT.
BTW, I like your flop bet. But watch out for the rope-a-dope. If I would have been playing against you I would have called you all the way with AK/AA/KK/AQ/QQ. And I would have pulled the trigger on the river with AA/KK/AK. If you check at any point, I bet.
assuming you know this guy is a good player, you may very well get him to fold QQ or JJ (12 hands)...but if he has AK (9 hands) or AQs (3 hands) (12 hands total), he'll call or raise you. Since the pot is obviously greater than your single lone flop bet, this is a great bet against a good player, but a poor one against a poor player. nice bet.
Normal slightly loose, weak 10/20 game. UTG open-raises. Your next with either AA or KK. Do you smooth call, or 3 bet?
Basically is it better to play AA/KK heads up for 3 bets (+1.5 bets from the blinds)? Or is it better to play AA/KK for 2 bets against 4 or 5 players?
Why not smooth call, then make everybody call 2 cold on the flop when UTG bets into you? This assumes that the flop came clean, of course.
With a few (or even one) cold-caller trapped in between you pre-flop then I think re-raising is the best play, but I am not sure its to your advantage to run everybody off pre-flop by 3 betting.
Now, same situation but you have AK. I think 3 betting here is important. The only hands that beat you are AA and KK (and since you have AK, these are unlikely). You make money against QQ/JJ/TT because of the dead blind money, your tied with AK (if the player is weak, you might can run him off of AK if the flop misses), and you dominate any other hand. Now, why I think it is important to 3 bet is because you want to play a dominated hand heads up. If the pre-flop raiser has AQ/AJ/KQ/Axs/KJs then not only is he a huge dog, but he has taken away one of your outs. You make a lot more money against a dominated hand heads up than you do 3 way, because most likely against a dominated hand your going to have to win unimproved.
I know all of this has been beat to death on this forum before, but everytime I am put in this situation with AA/KK/AK I hesitate. I still am not sure of the correct play. Most of the time I follow the advice I gave here, which is smooth call AA/KK and 3 bet AK. But I wanted to present it here to see if anybody sees any holes in my logic.
15/30 Bellagio.Ive got KQ off about 2/3 from UTG and limp,(this game was tight unaggressive and somewhat passive and I had used this strategy with KQ off several times that day with good results,semi solid abc player raises ,Button smooth calls,I call.Flop KQ5 2 spades,I bet SSP raises Button calls,I reraise,SSP calls,B calls.Turn K ,(I know a massive suck out),I bet SSP calls and B raises,I now correctly put each player on their hands AK,QQ's,I immediatly reraise thinking it will be hard for SSP to call but he has a too big a hand to muck,hoping to trap him and get more bets when and if QQ's full reraises..He calls and QQ's full on the button shuts down and calls.River 10 (3rd spade),I now check repping I cant beat a flush,going for a ck pop,reason, if i bet i get called in both spots maybe, but I knew the Button player would now think his hand was good and bet .I also felt their was a chance SSP player might muck for one bet as he hated his turn call of 2 cold and was praying for the board to pair.I check raised and got called by the QQ's full to get my 2 bets. SSP folded somewhat disgusted that the Button bet.Several thoughts.I told my friend I thought SSP made a terrible call on the turn,of 2 cold,my friend disagreed,who's correct?If im right and it is a bad call(which I firmly beleive it is) do I still want him to make it or lay it down given the fact the pot is large?Obviously my good fortune ,the button screwed up and didnt 3 bet before the flop,if he did I would have been gone.
n/t
The original raiser should have realized that he was playing a 3 outer. By my quick calculations he's getting around 7-1 on his call on the turn. He should fold.
A friend of mine played the following hand of $30-$60 and wanted to get some opinions. He is in middle position and limps behind two early limpers with JsTh.
Question 1: Is his limp correct?
The button limps as well as the small blind. There is $180 in the pot and six players.
The flop is: KsQhJd
Both blinds check. The first early limper bets and the next early limper folds.
Question 2: Do you raise, call, or fold?
My friend raises. The button folds. The small blind re-raises. The big blind folds. The early player makes it 4 bets.
Question 3: Do you cap it, call, or fold?
My friend calls. The small blind calls. There is $720 in the pot and three players.
The turn is: 6c
Everyone checks.
The river is: 3d
The small blind checks. The early player bets. My friend folds and the small blind calls. The early player wins with the AcTc for the nuts and the small blind mucked.
All comments welcome.
Limping into a 6-player pot is perfect for JT. You won't find many better oportunities for this hand. After the flop, I wouldn't raise, because I would be sure I didn't have the best hand, and I wouldn't want to drive out anyone who might help build the pot for me.
I wouldn't like having the pot 4-bet on the flop, But I would call. Of course I would call the turn and fold on the river. It would be hard to put the EP on the nuts. He could have two pair, a set, or even JT. This is just one of those hands you lose money on.
There were only 2 limpers when he limped, and there were still 3 or 4 more players to act behind him.
Would you really limp with JTo in this situation?
Maybe I rely on TTH simulations to much, but TTH shows offsuit connectors all the way up to JTo to be real dogs in a tough game.
Brett,
I can't believe you bust my chops when I call several weak players on the button for one bet with Q9 offsuit yet you would call with this hand and several players yet to act.
Regards,
Rick the Rock
Obviously Jim's friend had an excellent read on the game and new that the players were very loose and passive and that he had a good chance to make a cheap draw.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Some seemingly 11-out hands don't have much going for them, like this one. I don't like the flop raise.
With this many limpers and a KQJ flop, the chance of him being up against the nuts, two pair or the same draw are pretty high. The raise is therefore not likely to either buy him a free card, much less the pot on a a later round. There's little value to be gained from raising becuase if he's not reraised he'll probably be drawing (nearly)dead.
I'd call the two raises back, praying for KQ/KJ vs. Kx (plausible?), and fold on the river without a straight.
I wouldn't limp from late position with JTo in a 6/12 game, much less middle position in a 30/60 game.
I take that back. If there were 5 or 6 callers, and I was in the cutoff or on the button I would call with JTo.
After the flop, I would call all the way and then fold the river.
I read it as $450 in the pot when it's $60 to him, and the pot is $540 after the flop not $720.
I don't like his call in mid-position with 10-Jo. There are still many players to hear from.
Why raise the flop? He's not going to win it here with this flop and he's just driving out players and making it more expensive. Now he's getting 6.5-1 on his call and there is a reasonable chance he's drawing to half the pot. I don't like paying a steep price to draw to a one card str8 and I fold here.
How can anyone check the turn?
(n/t)
Personally I fold JTo in this situation. I'm just starting to get experience in "typical" games (I have played 20-40 which plays similar to a 3-6 game) so I am playing fairly tight. Still, this is a dominated hand that could get your friend trapped if he doesn't play well post flop (like me :)) so I think it's a fold. If suited it's an easy call.
On the flop I just call. This is a well coordinated flop and it has likely smacked someone over the head (two early position limpers). Your friend cannot have the best hand and can expect a three bet from the early limper who could likely have KQ or a similar hand. Once it is four bets back to him (he has to call two) I would re-evaluate. His Jack is no good, a ten is no good, another jack MAY be good, but I wouldn't feel too comfortable. I also wouldn't feel too great about a nine, although I would have to pay off if a nine comes. Therefor, I would estimate my outs at being around 4 or 5. Six bets preflop, nine on the flop and he has to call two more at this point. He can expect the SB to call, or raise so he has odds of around 16:2 or 18:3, and may be drawing to a split. I take one off, but I suspect a fold is the better play.
The rest of the hand is a no brainer but why the hell would the early limper check the turn???? Bad misplay of his hand.
I don't know that AT so badly misplayed his hand on the turn.
Look at it from his perspective:
Jim's friend raises his initial bet. All right, he may have a hand or he may be posturing.
Jim's friend then calls two more bets cold. Well, the chances of him merely posturing go way down. Odds are that he has a real hand i.e. most likely a two pair hand.
So, it may well be worthwhile for AT to let Jim's friend bet and then trap his two opponents for a checkraise.
Notice also that AT can't make a catastrophic error by checking. That is, there is no hand out there that can overtake or tie AT on the river which would have folded for a single bet on the turn. The error he makes is failing to collect 2 big bets if it gets checked through. While that is not insignificant, it is not catastrophic in the sense that I define that word. Also, that loss can often be mitigated by enticing calls on the river which he might not get if he bets the turn. And of course, there will be times when his check allows him to checkraise.
To sum up, while AT is probably better off betting the turn, I wouldn't say that trying for a checkraise is a very poor play on his part. He had a read on Jim's friend which went wrong. Happens to me all the time.
I disagree, but not with everything. Obviously you are right that it is only a small mistake to miss the two bets on the turn that he would have obviously collected, and that it may be right to go for a checkraise based on a read on Jim's friend. But I think this is a bad read.
Jim's Friend's (JF) raise on the flop could be almost anything. The SB's check-reraise spells an obvious good hand. I doubt that many opponents would go four bets in this situation with a drawing hand or to represent something so when the early player goes 4 bets he is screaming that he has a big hand. Ok, the smooth call by JF tells the EP that JF has a hand but how strong a hand? 2pr, maybe trips, or a drawing hand such as JT, QT, or KT.
So if you are EP on the turn what do you do? If you bet you are almost garunteed two calls, but if you check can you expect JF to bet? You have been the agressor and you have the initiative. The only way that I think you can check in this situation is if JF's body language on the flop told you that you thought he would bet out, and I think you need to be around 90% sure that he will bet to make this play. I know from past calculations that even though anyone with 2pr on the turn would be correct to call you with the nuts (there is over 10BB's I'm sure) your EV for this hand goes WAY down if you check, vs. betting. You should be collected 10 bets for every one you give away (over time), but in this case you are not doing that.
Simply put, the pot is big, you are way ahead, no one is going to fold, there is only one opponent behind you who must be re-evaluating the strength of his hand based on your show of strength on the flop, and both of these guys are drawing against you. Don't be tricky, bet, get two calls and maximize your EV in the long run by not giving any free cards here. I do think checking is a pretty bad play, unless he had a really good read on JF, but that is just my opinion.
JT is overrated by most. Button hand only, with no raise threat and a gun to my head is the only spot I'll play it.
On the flop I figured he might be drawing to 4 tying outs so a fold is OK. Me, I wouldn't have had to make that decision.
Question 1: Is his limp correct?
No. Suited is just fine.
Question 2: Do you raise, call, or fold?
Call. The pair is an illusion of strength. A decent limper will already have KQ, QJ, AQ or better. To make a power raise, more strength is needed. Free card raise is ill advised staring at broadway.
Question 3: Do you cap it, call, or fold?
Once your put your butt in a sling you have to see the turn now.
Always willing to concede to on site competent read of the play by the one involved though.
Regards.
my experience is that 2nd or 3rd pair with a one card straight draw is pretty much total garbage (against a large field). i would have seriously considered folding on the flop ( i say that here, in the game i would probably (incorrectly) routinely call).
as i see it youre drawing to a split pot with that many players, and even a jack may not make your hand (like here).
make JTs and have a three flush to go along with it and its (probably?) a clear call.
im thinking that the main problem with this flop is that if you have to pay more than 3 small bets to see the river then youre basically screwed.
brad
Jim-I hope you boxed your friend's ears and told him to never do this again (unless he's in my game). Calling in early/middle position with JTo in a Bellagio 30/60 is insane, unless the game was remarkably passive. On the flop my choices are: 1-Fold 2-Call 3-Raise. It's definitely not a clear fold but this is a situation I'd rather get out early.
Jim,
I routinely fold this hand in loose 5-10 games in this position. I would call instead of raising, and might call the two raises, but it would be a tough decision.
John
Preflop, I would fold JT off here. I would also fold AT,KJ,QJ off. I don't like these hands in multiway pots. I think that in multiway pots, they are marginally playable in late position.
On the flop, I would have just called for the reasons already given by the others. But having already raised and when it comes back 4 bets to me, I would probably cap it rather than just calling 2 more bets cold. Capping it increases your chances of getting a "free" card...lol...
But seriously...notice also that since the flop does not have a flush draw, your cap is likely to get you a free card on the turn as no one is likely to assume that you are raising to get a free card to make a straight.
I don't think that you can fold on the flop. While AT could be out there (them's the breaks), there are lots of other hands that could be putting all that pressure on the pot i.e. KQ,KJ,KT,QJ,QT etc. I would consider any 9 or any ace to be good news on the turn i.e. 8 very good outs although I could be in for a split pot with those 8 outs. The 2 Jacks would also put a smile on my face although the betting on the turn may just erase that smirk of mine.
The actual turn play is a strange one here. The guy with the nuts must have read your friend as an aggressive player who would pounce on the apparent table weakness on the turn and bet it for him. I may have taken the bait if I were your friend but probably not as I would think that even if my opponents are holding weak hands, it's likely to be a hand like KT or QT which they would call the turn with based on the strength of their draw and then call again on the river based on their one pair hand and the size of the pot. So, your friend did well taking the freebie.
Given that the turn was checked around, I would have been sucked into calling the river bet at the tables. On the Forum, it's easy to say "muck". Tough to do that on the table when the pot is that big and when everyone has checked the turn.
It's tough situations like these that have me routinely folding JT off preflop. Maybe, I could add it to my arsenal if my postflop game ever got to be at a top notch level.
skp wrote : "Preflop, I would fold JT off here. I would also fold AT,KJ,QJ off. I don't like these hands in multiway pots. "
So what would you call with? Although I believe JTo is marginal, and ATo, KJo and QJo are only slightly better (yes, I believe ATo is better than JTo), I think you are giving up a little bit by folding ATo, KJo and QJo....of course, this is assuming you play well after the flop, which I believe you are capable of.
I am in middle position and two early players have limped in. I would call with 22-TT, 76s+, 86s+,KTs+, ATs and KQ offsuit.
I would raise with JJ-AA, AK, AQ and perhaps AJs.
So, in essence, I would play JT,KJ,AT, QJ 25% of the time I get those hands dealt in that situation.
Are these hand ranges that you just rattled off the top of your head based on intuition (which has derived from your study of preflop play) or have you created some kind of chart or something that determines how you play in each position with a certain number of limpers to you in that position? (ie. BB is set two, you are seat six, there are three limpers I play xx, yy, zz. There is one limper I play aa, bb, cc. There are four limpers I play dd, ee, ff. Where aa, bb, cc, etc. are hand ranges as you indicate in your post.)
To be honest you play loser than I do, but I know I play too tight, and I am playing too tight for a reason. I am new to the game I am playing in, don't know many of the players, don't have a significant bankroll, and I am unsure of my skills relative to the competition. Also the game is tighter and more agressive than I am used to.
No charts etc....I basically wing it depending on my feel for the game. For example, I might not play 98s even after 2 limpers if my feel for the game is such that I think that there is a high chance of a raise behind me etc.
I forgot to add in the above post that I would probably also play Axs from mid position after 2 limpers (again subject to the pulse of the game).
But really my point is that at least for me, I have to have a very good reason to play KJ,JT etc of the offsuit variety under the stated conditions and I generally have a tough time finding that very good reason.
Jim,
I don't think it is even close to being a call before the flop. He needs the button for two limpers or at least two more limpers if he is up to two positions off the button.
On the flop I can't see folding. The initial raise might buy him a cheap card on the turn so IMO it isn't that bad. Once he small blind check-reraises and the early limper makes it four bets he should figure that it is unlikely that he will get to draw cheaply so a fold might be the best play. But if he plays why not cap it at five bets? He has position on both opponents and it might slow them down on the turn.
I'm surprised the turn got checked through. Why didn't the nuts bet since your friend only called the reraises on the flop?
I think the river fold is routine against most opponents.
Regards,
Rick
RN wrote : "I don't think it is even close to being a call before the flop. "
confusing - do you mean it is a good call or a bad call?
personally, I don't like the call, but if it can't be bad (or good for that matter, if it is a good call) by much. probably close to zero ev, but adds a good amount to standard deviation - hey, sounds kinda like one of the essays that Mason put out earlier.
doc river,
I meant to say it is a very bad call. You can easily be raised behind and all you really have is a hand with mediocre high card strength that flops straight draws.
Regards,
Rick
Question 1: Is his limp correct? No. I would want to be on the button to minimize the chances of there being a raise behind me to play this hand.
Question 2: Do you raise, call or fold? Call. He has bottom pair and a straight draw. There is enough money in the pot to draw to the hand, even though you may be drawing to only half of it. You're not going to buy the pot with a raise, nor do you want to put more than necessary in.
Question 3: Do you cap it, call or fold? Fold. What does he think the raisers have here?
2.5 big bets gone forever on a hand that shouldn't have been played.
I haven't read the other responses yet, so here is my two cents worth; sorry if I'm repetitive.
A1: I would fold this ragged hand before the flop. Suited this hand's worth a limp, but not offsuit. I just can't see this hand being profitable against early limpers, unless you're sure that you'd never be raised behind you, but I can't imagine many games at 30-60 where this is the case. Maybe I'd limp on the button with this, but the game would have to be right. This is the first point in the hand that I think is an easy fold, but with that said...
A2: Here, I think that you could argue to fold (preferable) or possibly call. My reasoning is this: you know that your J is no good, and a 10 will surely beat you. So now you're looking for an A, where you may split the pot. If you think that the A will let you win the whole thing, then calling is OK, with the implied odds that you're getting. I would still fold in a heartbeat.
A3: Easy fold when raised. You are beaten.
I am going to try 10-20 in Tropicana Atlantic City next week. Anybody has any experience there.. Sorry again for irrelevant posting. My apologies.. I didnot know where to post it..
Thank you mason for your reply on income of pro poker players and others. I agree that it is very hard to make 50 an hour playing poker but not that hard to make that much in other professions such as programmer, ER doctor, or stock broker..
I'm a frequent visitor to the Trop's 10-20 table. I can't give you any advice except play well....and don't act afraid. They smell fear at that table, if you're lucky enough to sit with the regulars.
~stephen
You could also play at the Taj. They usually have 3-4 10/20 games going.
never once have i ever seen 3-4 10-20 hold em games going at the taj.
If you are lucky, there might be two 10-20 and two 20-40. That is only on the best weekends (there could be very, very rare occassions of three each going at one time, maybe a few times a year). The majority of the time there is one or two going, of which one is must move, and, the games are terrible. There are several tough, not to mention mean and grouchy regulars in the game.
The 10-20 at the trop only goes on the weekend. Hold'em sucks in Atlantic City.
Are you kidding me? There are always at least 3 10-20 games going at the Taj on the weekends. However, I do agree that the coggers are mean and crusty. Lately I've only been playing 20-40 there and they had 4 tables going.
are you saying that 20-40 is easier to beat than 10-20 or players are nicer. Thanks..
If you have the patience and game the 20-40 at the Taj is sweet. I've taken $2,500 in one session there, but on the flip side, I've also lost $1,000 in one session.
As far as players are concerned, the Taj has the worst of the lot, IMHO, but that doesn't mean their money spends any differently.
~stephen
You must never be at the Taj on a weekend.
I play 10-20 hold'em at the Taj at least every other Saturday. The second 10-20 table tends to open by 11 am and there are ALWAYS 3-4 tables running by late afternoon (even in winter). On some busy weekends (such as this past weekend), 10-20 gives way to bigger games. I think there were only 3 10-20 games running this past Saturday afternoon, but that was because the room was packed, and all the lists were a mile long. I think they finally got a fourth table open at some point in the evening.
7.50/15 hold'em, I pick up Kh5h in the BB. Everbody calls around to the cutoff, who raises. Button calls, SB calls, I call, everybody else calls. 10 players, 20 SBs. Flop comes 532 rainbow with one heart. Checked around the cutoff, who bets. Button raises.
What is my play?
Right or wrong, I 3 bet. Everybody folds except cutoff and button who call. 3 players, 29 SBs.
Turn brings another 5, putting a 4 suit rainbow on board. I bet, cutoff calls, button calls. River brings a Jack. I bet, cutoff calls, button calls.
Results posted later. Any input would be appreciated.
I put both cut-off and button on medium overpairs, or one has 44. Therefore i think that you're beat on the flop with five outs, so a 1:8.4 shot. Given the pot size a call would be correct, assuming both opponents doesnt have a straight or a set.
I think a three bet is only correct when you think your (almost all) opponents will fold to a three bet, where they will not fold to a two bet.
When you hit your five you should bet all the way like you did.
.
nice aggressive raise on the flop to isolate the cutoff and button, and to charge overcards a premium. I put them on AK or overpairs, didn't you? your re-raise with top pair, good kicker, heh, which is more than likely NOT the best hand here is a good example of raising with second best hand to improve your chances of winning the pot.
Plus you did have outs (2-3 K's, 2 fives, and 1 out for runner-runner hearts). Your re-raise may well slow down the action on the turn if you don't improve.
What was your plan if you get no help on the turn? continue to lead or pray for a free card?
When you did spike the 5, did you concider a check-raise?
Given your opponents play after the turn and river I guess (hope)you won a nice pot.
Cutoff had AA, button had 22 for the full house.
I was drawing very thin. But with 20 SBs in the pot pre-flop I didnt feel like I could let it go.
the button lost a lot of money setting you on quads
Call before the flop is automatic. The problem becomes post-flop when the pot is huge, you have a tiny bit of it and the pot is giving you enough odds to draw to just about anything.
I don't like your 3 bet on the flop. You are most likely behind (maybe drawing next to dead if someone has A-4), and any callers are not going to hurt your chances. You want the other kings to call. The time to drive people out when you have 2nd best is when it gives you extra outs.
If I decide to continue with this hand (and I don't always) I prefer to lead out. Everyone between you and the raiser is now forced to call one and you build a huge pot without affecting your odds of drawing out.
I think it's a good raise to seize the initiative on the flop.For the price of one small bet, it froze up the button who clearly had a raise on the turn and river. The button should have capped the flop as even if the he thought the BB may have A4, he would have 10 outs or so to improve. So evidently the button fears A4 on the flop, then shifts gears and fears 55 or 33, the rest of the way. Which saves the BB and cutoff a couple big bets or so.
It's unfortunate the button had a set of 2's, but suppose the cutoff had something like AKs and the button TT, the BB can re-raise, representing the A4. This raise will 1) likely slow down the action on the turn (which it did) and 2)likely drive out overcards A thru J, which you don't want in the hand IMO.
The only reason I can see not re-raising the flop would be ok is if you knew opponents 1-7 were going to fold to 2 bets anyway. But then, the button would have surely raised the turn, so once again for a 1/2 bet, you are saving a full bet and maybe more.
If after your re-raise, one of your opponents 1-7 comes alive and fourbet's it, then it's likely THEY have A4 but nobody ever said semibluffing came with any guarantee.
I think a raise is better than flat calling if you have decided to take another card off, but certainly agree it is an agressive play not for everyone.
How does a raise slow down the action on the turn? I assume he was going to check and call/fold if he missed the turn. I agree that the button played it quite passive, but if he checked the turn he was going to face a bet from somewhere.
The overcards are not a danger to you in this instance. You are second best and neeed to spike a K or 5 (in a more normal sitution). The only danger is if someone calls with K-x and makes runner-runner 2 pair.
Basically your investing more money to build a smaller pot and your drawing. A bad combination. It makes some sense if he had position and could get it checked around to him on the turn.
"It makes sense if he had position and could get it checked around to him on the turn."
Hand like this one is why I would have mucked before the flop, no kidding, even with every player in.
Tommy Titwib (tightest in the world in blinds)
what the hell does it mean?:)
In my opinion.
Next time you run across an abbreviation you don't understand, click on "Abbreviations" under "Directory" on the the left side over there.
<---
:^)
I think the 5 on the turn was a lucky card for you. You could consider folding, but if you're going to play, reraise. Course if the other two players are loose aggressive types then slam the 3 in every time.
Chris
four players limp in before the flop, im the button with Q10 and also limp.
Flop QQ7 its checked to me so i bet utg calls utg was very loose player very straight forward (i bet cause if i just checked the players in the hand would suspect something was up since i hardly ever give a free card, and fold on the turn but as it happend they all folded)
turn is a 3
he checks i bet he checkraises, i rerase and he reraised me i. At this point I know that he has a boat, im thinking Q3,
I called
river is a blang he bet i called he had Q3
should i have folded on the turn when i thought he had the boat? how many would have?
what about the river do you make the call?
would you bet the flop being the button?
I think that if the situation happens again i will fold casue this guyus wasn't and agressive player and all of a suden he 4bets.
As always youre responses are apreacieted. this hand happend a couple of days ago and its still haunting me cause i didn't trust my instinct
Firstly, the chances that he has a boat with 77 are greater than the chances that he has Q7 or Q3 given that he limped UTG, so folding at any time is definitely out of the question as you would have 7 outs against his 77.
You ought to not make it 3 bets though on the turn given that your kicker is not exactly a powerhouse. At a minimum, he has trip Queens and given that he limped preflop UTG, it's unlikely that he has Q9 or worse. His most likely hands are QJ or KQ.
Accordingly, you should just call the raise on the turn and then call the bet on the river. Of course, you would raise if you hit a Ten.
Now, this guy happened to show you Q3 but you just can't put him on that hand at any time.
nt.
when check-raised on the turn, I would be thinking he had 77 or maybe Q7's and I would not re-raise but just call and then call the river. This would save you 2 big bets and still get you to the showdown, which is mandatory here being heads-up and all.
For this player to limp UTG with Q3, Q7, even suited is not good poker. And it takes a very passive game to make it right with 77 IMO.
I bet the flop. Sounds like 4 limpers and 2 blinds. With 6 opponents I expect some calls on the flop.
I call on the turn. Any T is good for you, and possibly any seven, also he may have 33 or 77 and then you can add in some 7's or 3's respectively to your outs, as well as the case Queen. You read him precisely for Q3, then you have 3 T's for a win and 3 7's for a split. About a 10-1 dog with 11 BB's in the pot.
On the river calling depends totally on how strong your read is. Personally I call here. Pot has around 12 BB's in it, so you have to be right more than 12 out of 13 times (92.3%) to make folding the correct play. Are you really that sure? Save one bet or gain 13, I think I call everytime here.
i sure he had a q with no kicker cause the queen has been hitting the flop everytime and this guy was playing a Qno matter if it was suited or not and it didn't matter what the kicker was to him.
10-20 online HE. 2 limpers, 1 fish one decent player. I raise, blinds fold, limpers call. I have AdQd btw...
FLop comes 10 9 2 with 2 diamonds. checked to me I bet it out. both call.
Turn is 8s. Decent player bets, I raise to get rid of the fish and to see where the better stands. I get reraised and call.
River is 3h. Player bets I fold. Should I have raised the turn? I had a gutshot and the nut flush draw, and maybe an Ace owuld be good. I think it was a good raise but im not sure. comments appreciated!
Why would you chase out the fish with a raise. If you hit your card you collect another big bet.
With 12 outs you are about 3-1 to make your hand , i would only raise if there was aboout 3 callers already in.
good job paying the max for your draw.
Why do you want the fish out? If you hit you want his money, and if you miss what difference does it make? Also if the decent player is bluffing the fish protects you from him bluffing again on the river...
Also raising to see where you stand makes no sense, you could have called the turn and the river for the same money and found out exactly what he had( in fact for less since you got three bet).
Raising seems likely to cost you money here both if you hit and if you miss...
sean
I hold QTo in bb in 10-20 he. UTG raises with 4 callers. Should I call for 10 more in the BB with 11-1 odds? ANd how good do the odds have to be for you to defend one raise from the button or cutoff?
I think the answer to this question depends on how well you play.
The following is a 10-20 hand from the Taj this past Saturday. I found it interesting for reasons I will discuss in the "Results" post.
I am in the big blind with Qc10c. First three players fold. The fourth player -- a decent player whom I have played against on several occasions -- raises. Everyone folds back to me, and I call.
Flop is Q, 10, x (say 5) rainbow with no clubs. I check, preflop raiser bets, I raise, he calls.
Turn is 9c. I bet, preflop raiser raises, I call.
River is another 9. I check, preflop raiser bets. Now what would you do?
Comments on my play throughout are welcome.
.
I folded.
Here was my thinking throughout:
1. I think suited big cards are worth a call out of the big blind, because you can hit some big hands that will get a lot of action from a preflop raiser. You just have to willing to get away from mediocre flops.
2. The flop checkraise seems automatic.
3. I figure I have to bet the turn, because (1) I don't want to give a hand like AK a free card and (2) while KJ is a possible holding of my opponent, it seems unlikely.
4. When my opponent raised, I was almost sure he had KJ. My checkraise on the flop told him that I had a strong hand -- probably at least two pair. He would have to know that two pair would not fold to a raise, so a semibluff would not make sense.
I will admit that I didn't bother to figure on the spot whether the pot was giving me the proper odds to fill up; I just knew it was close. In fact, the pot had 7.25 big bets in it, and I could expect to collect an additional big bet if a Q or 10 did fall on the river. Since I was a 10.5:1 dog to fill-up (10:1 against if you put the KJ in my opponent's hand), I was getting slightly the worst of it by making this call. But I think it is very important to make these kinds of calls. In my opinion, if you start laying down hands like this on close decisions, you will run into a heck of a lot more tricky raises, and you will not know what to do. Thus, the future value of the call more than makes up for the fact that it is a slightly negative EV play.
5. The second 9 made my laydown easy. Since I checkraised the flop and called the turn, the other player would expect me to call the river. Thus, he had to have a hand that he thought would win a showdown. KJ was the obvious choice; AA or KK were also slight posibilities. I couldn't see him betting a hand like AQ; he wouldn't think it was a favorite to win in a showdown. I just didn't see anyway I could win, so I threw my hand away on the end.
6. After I mucked, the other player said, "What did you have, two pair?" I said yes. I then asked, "Did you have king jack suited?" He said yes, and I believe him.
Comments welcome.
I have to be honest, I don't like your thinking or play of this hand at all! The fact that you seemed to have thought it out, and I disagree with almost all of it, means I don't know where to begin a meaningful discussion.
I know this reply isn't much help, but if it gets you to re-assess the hand, maybe it will help after all.
I agree with Duck. See my post below. It looks to me like you are trying to find a way to lose this hand, and are afraid to put any money in the pot.
I wouldn't fold on the river. I wouldn't engage in this discussion in the way you did after the hand.
ALthough this wasn't a steal raise he did open the pot w.a raise so I wouldn't neccesarily put him on a big hand.
Your checkraise ont eh flop doesn't mean you have 2pair, nor does his raise on the turn mean he can beat two pair. He could easily be semibluffing w/a lone j if he thinks you could lay it down.
Now if he bets again on the river after he missed you fold!? Unless you know maore about this palyer i don't think you can do this.
1. You should fold before the flop. You are against a legitimate raise and can easily make a second best hand. If there were a couple of other callers, then I would play.
2. I have no problem with check raising except that you might want to wait to the turn. This is a judgement play. You may also want to lead on the flop and go for three bets.
3. I agree with your reasoning.
4. There are many hands your opponent could have, This includes AQ or KQ.
Your check raise doesn't mean you have at least two pair. Most players would check raise with a queen, and some with much less.
The main reason you call is that there is enough of a chance that you have the best hand.
5. Why wouldn't he bet AQ? There is no reason for him to think that it is not the best hand. (By the way, he could also have a full house with a set of queens or tens though it is less likely since you hold one of those cards.)
6. Many players will lie about their hands after it is all over and there was no showdown. Suppose he was on a complete bluff. Wouldn't he want to be able to do it again?
Mason, I have found that I have found myself thinking similar to Afish on the turn and river and I think I know why. I have recently graduated to "typical" games and am getting MUCH more experience in head's up pot's. I am used to low limit games and low limit style of games that fruequently have multi-way pots. In multi-way pots his logic in his hand reading may be much more appropiate. So speaking from a little experience, if a player get's brainwashed into "low limit hand reading" and doesn't adjust his hand reading to head's up confrontations where the scale of hand values go down, then this is the type of faulty thinking that may take place.
These are just a few of my own thoughts on the subject of hand reading. I am finding myself having problem reading hands in head's up pots (and threeway pots) which are much more frequent in the game I have been playing recently and I need to "relearn" how to read hands. Do you have any thoughts on this?
I agree with Mason on everything, especially the range of hands that you could beat, and the post-mortem lying. I'm not saying he WAY lying. We'll never know. When I make a close laydown and the other guy says he had a monster, I WANT to believe him because it makes me feel better about my play. I suspect this is common.
I'd fold before the flop too.
I prefer betting out on the flop and three-betting in these situation so that I get the most in the pot while I have the best hand, and so that I've honestly represented my strength. That way, I get pounded on the turn or river, I can save a big-bet here and there with close laydowns that have good chance of being right.
Tommy
x
Everyone folds to a early position player (3 from the BB) who raises and everyone else folds to me, I am in the BB and look down to see 55. This is the first time I have played with the raiser but I have been told that he is a good player and therefor I am wary of him. He seems decent to me, and he has made some "plays" during the session and some steal raises, but because of his position I don't put him on a steal raise this hand. I call with my pocket 5's.
Flop: 733 rainbow with one club. I bet out. He pauses and then calls.
Turn: 4c. I bet out. He pauses and then calls and before the river is turned over he says that he needs a club.
River: Qh. I check and he checks behind me and says that he can't win.
I show my hand and he says "Yah, I had AcKc". I'm unsure of what to think of this hand.
Who would call from the BB with 5's in this situation preflop?
Now I want to discuss the play of the raiser. I think he totally misplayed his hand preflop and I think this may be because of the image I had projected at the table during the session. I had been playing pretty tight throughout the session since he had sat down. My cards had dictated this. I got nothing but garbage except for AA and QQ 3 times, as well as an AJo where I flopped the nut straight (I was the first one with a raise from the button and the BB called me on this hand). He hadn't seen me bet a hand without having decent cards.
With this type of an image maybe his play has merit (puts me on an overpair to the flop and doesn't think I will fold), but I still think he misplayed his hand. I think he should have raised me on the flop (I would have debated folding but would have called). A raise on the turn would have been another strong play because it looks like he was trying to trap me on the flop with a big pair (such as AA or KK). On the river he has to check because at this point I will call him for sure (unless an Ace or a King had hit).
What do you guys think? How would you have played his hand? How would you have taken my image into account during this hand and how would that have effected your play?
>>Who would call from the BB with 5's in this situation preflop?
Everyone who didn't raise.
First, I think your calling of the 2 bets preflop is questionable. If you think he is a solid player, then chances are that at least 50% of the time, he is holding a big pocket pair, which puts you as a big dog. However, if you're hoping that he has something like AK or AQ, then your call is ok. I'm also assuming that you called because you're already half way in with the BB.
On the flop, I like your bet. You're testing him, and he shows weakness by only calling. I would bet out again on the turn as you did. On the river, the Queen is definitely a scare card and I think the check was ok. However, were you prepared to fold if he bet the river or were you thinking of calling any bet (including a club)?
I definitely think the raiser misplayed his hand by not putting more pressure on you. Even if he really respects your table image, he has to raise you on the flop with his nut flush draw. Unless you read him for a flush draw, you now have to think that he is representing a big pocket pair. This would cause you to make a tough decision because you may now be playing a two-outer. If you flat call and he bets the turn (assuming you check), I think this type of aggressive play would win him the pot. If the hand played out like this, what would you have done?
Just my thoughts.
There was one club on the flop. He picked up the nut flush draw on the turn, and I picked up a guthsot with my underpair.
If I bet the flop and he raised me I would call. There would be 4 BB's in the pot. I would figure I had around 6 outs at this point (40:6 -> 6.67:1) when I picked up the gutshot, but I would also debate the fact of if I had the best hand or not. These factors would push me into calling the turn bet if I had checked (which I would, assuming he had raised me on the flop) and he had bet. If I missed on the end and a King, Ace or club hit I would likely fold my hand if he bet, otherwise I would likely call him on the river hoping that he had a busted high hand.
I'm not sure if this is the correct way to play the hand under these circumstances, but this is what I envisioned at the table during the hand.
Your play:
Preflop - fine
Flop - fine
Turn - fine
River - Depends on whether your opponent is more likely to bluff with AK or call with AK. If the latter, you should bet. You risk nothing by betting because he probably will not raise with even AQ and you are going to call his bet in any event if you check.
His Play assuming he had AcKc:
Flop - He needs to mix it up. I don't mind his mere call though particularly if he intends on smoking you with a raise if a club hits on the turn.
Turn - again, he needs to mix it up but here's a good spot to make it 2 bets. He can always check the river if he misses and still have some semblance of a hand to showdown.
River - Fine. It is almost never correct to bluff with AK at the end when headsup and in position.
Ok, given that your opponent plays his hand more agressively postflop how would you proceed with my hand?
If he raises the flop, I call and if he bets again on the turn after I check, I would generally fold. However, you do occasionally have to call him again to stop him from just bulldozing you over with aggressive betting every time he has position. I can't remember what your turn card was. If it gave you a gutshot (thereby giving you 6 outs), this may be a good spot to call again on the turn.
If he called the flop but then raised on the turn, I am going to fold a greater percentage of the time although again, I am inclined to call if I have 6 outs.
I know this is the wrong forum, but I wanted to post it here, anyway.
How do most of you handle questions about your hand after the fact? I like to be pretty jovial at the table for image sakes, but I find people asking "so what did you have on the turn there? Do you normally reveal what you had? I find it impolite to ask, but many people ask me. I'd rather not lie, but saying I'd don't remember seems pretty lame too. Any ideas out there?
Thanks in advance.
At limit I never show or discuss hands or indicate what I had. This rigid policy has the interesting result that players almost never ask me what I had.
But sometimes they do, and like you, I'm plenty jovial, so it makes me uncomfortable to rudely ignore them. The good news is that they are asking after a loss. What works for me is a slight head shake, as if saying, "Don't talk to me now. I'm in pain." They empathize and drop it.
Tommy
Excellent question & a very important issue! By revealing a folded hand to your opponents you help them to read you the next time around, which makes you predictible to them. And that is one thing you don't want to be. Showing your cards to a neighbour before the flop is even worse, because now he or she has an opportunity to watch the entire hand and not only follow the logic of yours, but also the body language. As far as how to handle questions:"What did you have?", I'll say this. It usually takes a stone moron or a dirty pig to even ask the question, so you don't have to be choosy when it comes to responses (e.g. "If I tell you, I would have to kill you") In general, try to not socialize at the table and if you do that you will be asked less questions. Good luck!
Lenny-
You make a very curious remark "In general, try to not socialize at the table and if you do that you will be asked less questions. Good luck!"
I find it curious because DS has referred to you as the "The best limit hold'em player" (or something to that effect). Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you mean by "socialize". I would think a relaxed poker environment which is created by socializing would be much more profitable for you. Wouldn't your refusal to socialize create a war-like environment, where everybody is trying to play well and beat that Lenny Martin guy who's supposed to be the best hold'em player around?
btw- I am NOT being sarcastic. I have no doubt you are a top player. I just wish you would post here more often and realize that any wisdom you dispell would not come back to haunt you in your games. Cheers!
Duck
Duck, I think it is a question of degree and extent. Certainly you want to be civil, polite, and not unfriendly (double negative used deliberately here). But it is a mistake to be too chummy at the table and invite a lot of unnecessary table talk that slows down the game and makes players "aware" of things.
Justin, I am glad I could answer your question. Duck, "socialize" means talking to your neighbour instead of paying attention to the game (nobody in the world can do both), which is too high of a price to pay for creating a friendly atmosphere at the table, that is in most cases no good anyway. Contrary to popular belief recreational players play worse in an unfriendly environment, not better, and also tend to stay in longer to satisfy the ego. I would much prefer the "war-like" environment because to me poker IS a war, and because, that IS when my opponents try to beat Lenny Martin at ANY COST. Appreciate the good words and I'll try to post more often. Good luck!
"Contrary to popular belief recreational players play worse in an unfriendly environment, "
Hi Lenny,
Right on the money with the above. I unfortuanaetly do not pratice what you preach in total. I am very friendly at the table and consequently get in many disussions while playing. Tou are correct in that this detracts form ones game because of the loss of concentration and focus. I do however try as best I can to limit my jovialness to between hands. I try to focus while a hand is being played whether I'm in the hand or not. Even though I agree that being non socially involved at the table is better my natural personna takes over. Everybody that plays poker at my table likes me ...except for those that don't.
Vince
Or better yet, "If I told you, I'd have to kill myself."
You couldn't be more right lenny. When someone shows me there cards or reveals what they had, it gives me a huge advantage over them. From now on, I will make it clear that I am not to be asked. Thanks for the advice.
Excellent question & a very important issue! By revealing a folded hand to your opponents you help them to read you the next time around, which makes you predictible to them. And that is one thing you don't want to be. Showing your cards to a neighbour before the flop is even worse, because now he or she has an opportunity to watch the entire hand and not only follow the logic of yours, but also the body language. As far as how to handle questions:"What did you have?", I'll say this. It usually takes a stone moron or a dirty pig to even ask the question, so you don't have to be choosy when it comes to responses (e.g. "If I tell you, I would have to kill you") In general, try to not socialize at the table and if you do that you will be asked less questions. Good luck!
Many times, after winning a pot where I did not have to show my hand, someone will ask "what did you have?" I always reply-"I had the winning hand".
I agree with Tommy. Whether I win or lose, I make it a habit to NEVER show my cards unless called, so I rarely get asked. I like Tommy's "I'm in pain" suggestion. Another thing I'll do is make a joke of it. I'll say "wired sevens, what else?" on a board of As,Ac,Ks,Js after it was capped on the turn. This usually generates some laughs along with "yeah rights", and is quickly dropped.
In $20-40 game they ask you what you have? You say $40!!
I do not make false statements about my hand...unless someone asks me what I had.
When pressed about my hand after taking down a pot when a highly respected top player folded on my river bet, I said, "I know who you are, and you are much too dangerous to give too much information to". He smiled and has never asked again.
Assuming it is a 15-30, I'll normally say, "For fifteen bucks I'll tell you. For thirty bucks I'll tell you the truth."
I usually get a laugh and I don't answer the question.
This hand took place last night in a wild 10-20 game!
Im dealt QQ on the button
3 weak limpers a maniac raise i reraise all call maniac caps we all call
$240 in pot
FLOP: Q T 9 offsuit
ll check to maniac who bets. i raise all but 1 call maniac reraise i cap it they all call
$440 in pot
Turn... K (dammit)
1 weak limper bet 2 players call maniac raise.. i call the original bettor raise the other 2 players call maniac caps it and we all call...
$840 in the pot (5 players)
River A
weak limper bet 2 otrher limpers fold maniac raise i fold weak limper call.
The pot of $1000 is split between the 2 players who both hold AJ.
One of the limper showed his hand when he mucked it, he had pocket Kings...
So i was playing a ONE outer for $80! nut was tough to know...
My question is: did i play this correctly even if i lost 8 big bets?
Ty for help
Charlie
If there's is ever a time to lay down a set before the river, this may be it.
First of all, you definitely NEED the full house. Ten outs. However, how big a chance is there that you are drawing to 1 out? A lower set might also be present, in that case, 8 outs.
However, the best reason to lay down here, would be the possibility of KK. There are sometimes when we all, based on our reads on certain players etc, can with 99% accuracy say that either KK or AA is out there. And possibly both. Easy math says the chance of either being present is over 50% each.
Remember, too, that KK would actually go further than AA on a flop like this (a tight player may actually lay down AA on the flop in this spot). A Ten makes KK a dog to AK only, and while a possible hand in this scenario, not at all certain to be around.
When I read you story, I actually didn't spot the obvious straight possibility the turn card K created, I thought of 'KK'.
That said, you played it correctly on every street maybe except the turn. Four big bets went there, and you should also had known this (remember for every raise going in, the odds on your 10 out draw is weakened, though far from trashed, even without KK in there).
In this spot, even the river fold is correct, IMHO. With this kind of action and that board, you must consider you set a draw (and a DAMN good one too unless KK is in there) and broken draws a usually folded at the river.
Lastly I will add that despite my light critism, I'd like to see the man able to lay down on the turn in your spot. Don't think I would've been able to, but I think I may should have.
lars
But KK would have raised preflop but not have raised the turn. The only guy who raised preflop was the maniac but he also raised on the turn. So, presumably you could rule out KK as being out there. As such, I think Charlie played it fine.
You say there were 3 limpers, a maniac and you. I think you meant to say there were 4 limpers but anyway that doesn't change any analysis.
I think you played the hand fine. There was no way of guessing someone had KK. Am I reading correctly, in that the guy with KK did not raise BTF?
Anyway you have to 3 bet BTF to try to isolate the maniac. When this doeasn't really work you still have a good hand and hope the flop is to your liking. Obviosuly the flop is good but dangerous with 3 cards to a straight. You have to raise as much as possible hoping to get some players out. The turn is a terrible card but I think you have to stick around to see the river. You have to think if the board pairs you are good. Like I said before it is hard to know one of the early limpers has KK. When the river doesn't help you I think I fold rather than paying $40 as it seems obvious one of your opponents has a J.
Tough luck but I think you played the hand fine.
I also think you played fine. No reason to suspect pocket Kings. If I read your post correctly, pocket Kings didn't raise pre-flop, nor did he bet or on the flop.
Dammit is right.
Abdul,
I wanted to thank you for your help with short handed play. Its a gold mine!
Its a ton of fun, and unbelievably profitable. Now everytime I go to the casino I go looking for a short handed game.
I am sure the players are much better and more aggressive at the higher limits, but at 8/16 and 10/20 even the players playing short handed are way to weak-tight for short handed play.
Also, its SOO much easier to read players short handed because (1) they are involved in more hands, and (2) there is less people to get a read on. Most of the time reading people short-handed is easy. They definitely need to work on their betting patterns. That is what I work hardest on, keeping my betting patterns the same when I have a hand and when I dont.
And your absolutely right, folding is a disease! It amazes me the people who will raise pre-flop, then fold post-flop when they miss. Against some opponents, its right to defend your blind with anything because its so easy to push them off of hands when they miss.
Last night, we were playing 4 handed and some lady raised my BB, I defended with 74o. Flop came something like T82, and I bet into her and she dropped! She folded hands all night long. Then she finally caught me putting some moves on her, and started calling me down with anything. So then I just thin value bet her for the next two hours.
Oh, and that move about check-calling the flop, then firing on the turn is beautiful! It also works on the river. It confuses people to no end. Some guy called me down with K high when I flopped top pair and pulled that move on him. It also disguises the times when you do improve and suddenly fire out on the turn. And once people start catching on, you can do it with nothing and they start dropping!
Although you do feel kind of stupid sometimes. Last night, I defended my BB with 5d7d, and the flop came down K34 with one diamond. I check-call. Turn brings the 2d. I bet into the raiser, he calls. River blanks off and I bet again. He calls, and shows KK after I show him my busted draw. Oops!
Once people catch on that your betting and raising with nothing, then it gets really profitable to thin value bet. You can pull turn and river raises with 2nd and 3rd pair and people will pay you off all the way!
The only problem is that short handed play tires me out much more quickly than a full table. I can only play 3 or 4 hours of short handed before I am drained.
Anyway, I wanted to thank you and also Izmet for all your help. Your posts, and both of your websites are greatness! You really should write a book about short-handed play. Well, maybe not. Dont want to help people out to much!
Joe
I'm still waiting for Abdul's book on shorthanded play. As I stated before he can sell it over the internet. Carson did it. I'll be his first customer. (he can also add a section on warped cards) Are you (Abdul)going to Tunica?
Thanks.
In your hand with 75s and a flop of K34 with one of your suit, you check-called, but if the raiser was late then I would suggest betting out, calling if raised, and checking the turn whether your opponent called or raised the flop. Your opponent will be hard-pressed to either call or raise without a pair on the flop. If your opponent calls, then you should be very scared (could be a slow-played king), and just check-fold the turn if you do not improve. Basically, the plan is to get your opponent to take a free card when you're the one who really wants it.
If your opponent does take a free card, then in general you'll make a profit by firing on the river as a bluff. However, in this particular hand, there is no draw that your opponent can have, so you have to be a bit concerned about him raising the flop with an ace and taking a free card with the intention of calling your bet on the river. On the river, an inexperienced opponent might intelligently call with an ace if bet into but stupidly bluff bet with an ace if checked into; against such an opponent, I would seriously consider a check-raise on the river. Bet, check-fold, or check-raise... all can be reasonable here.
If your opponent raised from early position and is sane, you probably should have folded preflop - too big a risk of being up against a hand like KK.
I have no plans to go to Tunica.
-Abdul
The hand where guy had KK was played 4 handed. Not sure if he was UTG or the button, but I am not sure that it really mattered 4 handed.
I probably should have bet into him, but he had been calling the flop bet with anything. So when I picked up the draw on the turn, I thought I might could get him to lay it down if he had no pair. I am not sure if I should have bet the river or not. There wasn't much chance he was going to lay it down, but there was no way I could win in a showdown.
Vegas 20-40 HE. Waiting for my bb I observed 3 hands. The game appeared to be loose passive with 5-6 seeing the flops for 2 bets. I pick up 2 red aces in the bb. I'm waitng for someone to raise so I can make it 3 bets in hope to isolate the raiser. 1. To my dismay and surprise everyone folds to the sb who raises; I re-raise and he caps; I call. He appears to be a regular hoping to take advantage of a tourist (me). I like this confrontation 2. Flop come 10 2 8 rainbow. My opponent bets, I raise, he re-raises and I cap. Should I have capped? 3. Turn brings another 10 with 2 diamonds. He bets; I raise; he re-raises; I call. Was I being too aggressive here? 4. River is the Ks. My opponent checks???? I'm think for a moment and check. 5. My opponent shows me 10-K c. I wait a few moments and decide to show him my aces for 2 reasons. 1, to let him know he got lucky on the turn and 2, he could have probably got me for another bet on the river. 6. I've discussed this with a couple of players and one says I should have considered folding after he check raised the turn. They both said it was a mistake showing my aces. Your thoughts???
You say the opponent check-raised the turn but earlier you said he bet out, you raised and he three bet. Either way I don't think I would have folded on the turn. When the 2nd ten falls on the turn and he bets out I would just have called rather than raised but I still would not fold in this situation. BTW it was a good check on the river by you. Many players would have been tempted to bet and they would have been check-raised.
As for showing him your cards I don't think it is a big deal either way. In my opinion many players are unnecessarily paranoid about this. I don't think in the long run it really makes much of a difference. I alsmost never show a bluff and rarely show my cards in any situation but I don't think it is a big deal. What did your friends say was wrong with showing? Is he going to play differently now that you showed him? I don't think it makes a difference.
clinteroo...he made it 3 bets on the turn not a check raise. One friend said that should pretty much tell me had a 10 or 88 or 22 and I should have considered folding. If he has one those three holdings I'm dead to an ace. They both said never show a losing hand. I usually don't but I told you why I did. I think the best reason for not showing a losing hand (and I've even given this advise to those who come to me) is you are not just showing your opponent on that hand but giving the whole table information about you and whoever they tell also. Thanks for your comments.
Well, he could have made it 3 bets on the turn with KK too. You simply cannot entertain the idea of folding this hand at any time. The only thing different I would have done is not cap the flop. Once he three bets the flop, I would have smoothcalled with the intention of putting the hurt on him on the turn (of course, I would be the one hurting here but those are the breaks).
I also would have bet the river after he checked. Good for you that you did not.
I wouldn't have raised him on the turn. When an opponent bets into a board that pairs on the turn, after you have showed strength on previous rounds, he generally either has an overpair or has trips. I think you go into a check and call mode here. If he doesn't have the 3rd ten, he's probably going to fold to your raise anyway. By just calling, you lose the least amount when he does have the 3rd ten, and win the most when he has an overpair (which is under your Aces).
When he checked the river, I would have put him on Queens or Jacks and bet. Were I him, I would have bet. What could he have put you on? After all, if you had Jacks or Queens, you would check behind him. He should have put you on an overpair, and since he had a King, Kings was your least likely holding. You saved (at least) one bet on the river.
Now I notice that I have not answered your two questions. Would I fold to his re-raise on the turn? Not if I thought there was a chance he had Jacks, Queens or Kings. Should you have shown your cards? I think not. Why let anyone see you're capable of checking Aces on the river after your opponent checks in front of you? I suppose everyone knew by then that you had a big pocket pair, but why confirm it? Let 'em think you had a pair of 5s.
I played a couple of hours at the bellagio last tuesday night and was wondering if I played with any posters? I was wearing a black brim and a Horshoe jacket. Dino.
-Wise rulers (poker players) and capable generals (poker smiths) are often able to defeat their enemies and achieve outstanding successes because they have prior information on the situation. -Sun Zi's art of war
-Emulate the strengths of opponents and use their weaknesses for self correction. -Sun Zi's art of war
-Armies (poker players) at war(in a pot) usually fight in direct confrontation. But those (players) capable of springing a surprise will win. - Sun Zi's art of war
-A carpenter was giving evidence about an accident he had witnessed. The judge asked him how far away he was from the accident. The carpenter replied "twenty seven feet, six and one half inches". "What? How come you are so sure of that distance?", asked the judge. "Well, I knew some idiot would ask me. So I measured it!" replied the carpenter.
-This week in Vegas was race week. Often this time of the year the action is fast and furious. Not only at the Nascar races but also on the tables. Often racers live in the fast lane and they gamble like it. They are dangerous and cause a lot of wrecks not only to the regular pro's but to themselves. Poker is a race to see who can aquire the chips the fastest. Yes you will get bumps and grinds along the way but eventually if you play well and for long periods you shall get the cup. Today we shall discuss the first part of the game. Before the race begins you have to get to the track. In order for a player to win a pot he has to first enter the pot. That's right he can win no chips unless he enters the pot. One of the most important concepts in poker is to eliminate other players before the flop. A player not in the pot cannot beat you. Raising eliminates players and should be done before the flop. It is the simplest and most effective way to increase your odds and decrease your opponents odds. If they fold they have zero odds. I have done some calculations using poker probe in order to show you how raising effects the odds as opponents drop.
JJ AK 55 9 callers 19.48 17.20 11.91 8 callers 22.35 18.86 13.60 7 callers 25.15 21.15 14.31 6 callers 28.87 23.82 16.02 5 callers 33.69 27.31 18.08 4 callers 40.08 31.39 22.48 3 callers 47.98 39.61 28.88 2 callers 60.80 48.69 39.25 1 callers 78.25 64.65 59.03
-Remember I still need your funny stories and tales from the oval ring. Email me at Hosh115@aol.com
-Next week we shall make you think. You will gain and insight using the latest poker technology. I plan to break down some hands in the blinds and let you experts analyze the situation. Never before has this been able to be done. I plan to give you the numbers and let you decide what would be the best play.
-Rember play well and have fun!(Hosh)
-Make fewer mistakes this week.
Hosh appologizes. The columns did not come out right. Since I do not know how to change it the numbers correspond to the hands.
Hosh,
Great post. Great point concerning raising preflop. One thing though. I believe that Mike Caro's Poker Probe is the most valuable poker simulator, maybe the only one, that a poker player can use. What it does it does in an excellant manner. Howere it does not have the capability of showing the effects of a preflop raise on ones probability of winning a hand. When you run probe your run it against random hands. Even though you have the ability to select which hands to run them against you would be hard pressed to come up with a scenario that could predict which hands are mre likely to call vs a raise. Just a minor point. That said, raise!
vince
Hi Vince next week will be using a new poker program. I am beta testing. We can now break down hands. If I have time I will try to break some hands down for everyones viewing. When do you play to be back in vegas. I use poker prob because results can be verified. But next week the results will not be able to be verified easily. And yes she still looks good.
"I use poker prob because results can be verified"
Hey, I'm a fan of poker probe. It's a must for serious poker players in my opinion.
vince
I agree poker probe is one of the best analyzers on the market today. That is for sure. Simulations must only be used as guidelines as you know.
10-20 online HE.
1) I get AKs in early position I raise and 2 callers. Flop comes 10 8 2 rainbow. I bet out and get raised. other player folds i call. turn is a 3. Check and fold? Bet and fold? Check and call? My play here? What if im on the button with the same hand raise an early bettor and get 3 bet. my play there?
2) 77 in sb. 4 limpers aggressive raiser on button raises. Must call?
3) QQ in cutoff with aggressive raiser to my right raising. 3 bet to isolate or call?
4) ATo in early middle. Loose passive game. Raise, call or fold? Thanx in advance.
Hand 1: I would check and fold on the turn unless you picked up a flush draw. You probably don't have many outs unless you put the other player on an aggessive open-ended straight draw.
If you were the button, I think you fold to the 3 bet on the flop. In both situations, your AK missed badly and the bettor seems to really like the flop.
Hand 2: I don't know if it's a must call, but if you're fairly certain that it won't be raised again, I'd be inclined to call here. You have bad position and if you don't hit the flop, then you must muck.
Hand 3: Unless the aggressive raiser has been showing monster hands (AA, KK, QQ, AK) with his preflop raising, I think it's better to 3 bet to isolate. Sometimes I like to smooth call and hope to pick up a couple of limpers, but against your QQ, you probably want people to dump their Axs, Kxs, and KJo type of hands.
Hand 4: If you're first to act, I'd probably limp in. I'd do the same if others before you have limped. Hands like ATo, AJo, and QJo can end up quite costly for second best. I'd be happy to see the flop cheaply here. I'm guessing others may even consider folding if the game is very aggressive (which it is not according to your post). I know I'd probably fold if it was an aggressive game.
Just my thoughts.
1) Generally check and fold.
2) Call.
3) 3-bet.
4) Fold.
IMHO.
Agreed although I would add something to scenario No. 1 - the AK situation.
I think you will agree with me that it's entirely opponent dependant i.e. will your opponent call your preflop raise with a hand that this flop hit? If not, chances are he is just trying to outplay you. If I sense that, I may very well go into checkcall mode all the way to the river. Great cards on the turn and river (other than Aces and Kings) would be those that pair the board.
Note: I specifically think that betting out on the turn (after not having 3 bet preflop) is wrong. The stop 'n go in this situation smells weak and a tough opponent may just convince you that he really has something by raising you again with nothing. This is one of the reasons that the stop 'n go play is in fact effective when you do have an overpair as you might induce a raise from a guy who is drawing dead.
BTW, betting to avoid giving a free card is not necessary here as your opponent is likely to bet himself in any event. Besides, he is unlikely to fold for one bet and worse, he may raise you with an inferior hand and you fold.
So, in essence, I agree that check-folding on the turn is probably what you have to do most of the time. But against the right opponent, checkcalling (even twice) can be the proper play. Betting out is not a play I use often in this scenario.
Good points. In a bigger game, I think it would be more likely that an opponent would be trying to outplay you. An opponent who just called your raise pre-flop is probably not going to be trying to outplay you here with A-Q or A-J. Unless you've got a good read on your opponent either in this hand on in general, I'm not sure I'd like giving advice to someone to check and call all the way with no pair. But I do agree the decision can be opponent-dependent.
1) This situation completely depends on your opponent. Depending on your early position raising standards, a good player would know that there is a good chance that you have nothing yet. Does he think of you as someone capable of folding on the flop or turn in a shorthanded pot after raising preflop? Is he the type of player that would raise on a draw (J9s), as a semibluff, or as a bluff? If so, you must call him down. But if he would only raise you with a pair, then you should fold.
2) This is going to be a 6-7 way pot. 77 is an easy call.
3) You didn't mention if the cutoff was open-raising or not. I will assume that he is open-raising. I would definitely reraise. You need to get the blinds out, who might have lone aces and kings. You will get plenty of action from the aggressive raiser, since he will know that you are just trying to isolate him.
4) ATo is crap in any position in a loose passive game.
palpatine
10-20 online HE.
1) I get AKs in early position I raise and 2 callers. Flop comes 10 8 2 rainbow. I bet out and get raised. other player folds i call. turn is a 3. Check and fold? Bet and fold? Check and call? My play here? What if im on the button with the same hand raise an early bettor and get 3 bet. my play there?
2) 77 in sb. 4 limpers aggressive raiser on button raises. Must call?
3) QQ in cutoff with aggressive raiser to my right raising. 3 bet to isolate or call?
4) ATo in early middle. Loose passive game. Raise, call or fold? Thanx in advance.
The following happened to me yesterday (9-handed): I was in BB with QQ. UTG limps (fairly weak), 7 seat (tight old guy) limps, 8 seat limps, button limps (addicted gambler), SB raises (OK hand selection, but she doesn't adjust her play to others), I reraise. All call, except for the rock.
Flop comes 8, 5, 2 rainbow. SB bets, I raise, all call two bets cold! I'm a little concerned by the guy on my left, because while he's a little weak, he doesn't come in with total garbage hands.
Turn is a 4. This is a pretty scary card. SB bets out again (I'm now pretty sure that I have her hand beaten, because she'd reraise AA or KK before the flop, and would check AK here, despite the draw to the wheel, but UTG still scares me). I raise, to make it expensive for AK to go. UTG folds then it's called all the way around.
River is a 5. I'm just about sure that somebody's got a straight or better and will pull the trigger with their 6,7 or their full house. Checked to the button who bets, SB bitches and moans and calls (I know that I beat her) and the 8-seat folds out of turn. I make a crying call on the river. SB had 99 and button slow-rolls his J-5 offsuit to take it down.
I don't care about losing the hand, but was I right to raise the turn and to call on the end?
Yes and yes.
Oui and Oui.
Yes
Per your narrative, I really like your play. In my opinion, your raisings were proper.
You have excercised good hands read, particularly that one of the SB - your forefront rival in the pot. When you lose a hand like this to J5o, there is not much you could have done it, for those players will pay it back plying weak like that.
Remember, we are 'supposed' to like players like that at our tables.
Sheesh, and I thought the local 3-6 players played poorly.
What are you going to do? You read the hand completely correctly, made Tito and Germaine and the boys pay through the nose, and you got sucked out on. Final call was pretty much mandatory.
Send a cab for this guy, please.
Been out of town and out of the two-plus-two loop for ten days, but in that time I managed to get in a night of hold 'em at the Taj in AC. One hand that I played was a little odd and I'd like comments.
I hold QTh on the button and get in a multiway pot for $10 (I think it was 5 handed at the flop).
Flop comes KQX rainbow with one heart. It checks to a mid position guy who bets. The guy in between us folds. $60 in the pot.
I know if I call, some other people will call as well but if I raise it is likely everyone between me and the bettor will drop (if someone checkraises I'm out). I raise.
Normally I wouldn't raise here but the better was somewhat loose and I thought I could get out any weak kings (KJ and worse). I was also at a new table and had just shown down two monster hands and hoped I'd get some respect.
My intention was to bet again on the turn if I improved in anyway (Q,T, J or a heart). I didn't improve and just checked.
River comes a T. Flop bettor bets out, I raise, he calls and folds when I show two pair.
This was an unusual play for me and not one that I would make every time or even often, but it seemed right at the time. In retrospect it may have been just a lucky hand on a loose move. I'd appreciate comments. Was the flop raise worth it? Would you bet the turn? Would you have called a bet on the river had another blank hit?
Regards,
Paul Talbot
PS. I found the Taj a very nice room to play in. Huge (seemed bigger than Bellagio), no-smoking, and floorstaff that seemed to be on top of games. I didn't see anyone drinking though and the waitresses didn't yell out "cocktails" but rather "Coffee, juice, water!" Is there no drinking in the poker room?
I don't really have any comment on the hand. I guess raising for a free card is defensible, but I would have called to get more callers with what seems to be a drawing hand.
I believe NJ regulations prohibit cocktail waitresses from saying "cocktails," lest innocent gamblers be tempted to get drunk and lose all their money. You will hear "coffee, soda, juice" in the pit, as well. You can get alcohol in the poker room, but very few poker players drink alcohol.
n/t.
10-20 online HE. I got KQo in early pos. utg folds to me, i limp, 2 late limpers, and blinds call. 5 of us see flop.
FLOP: Q J 2. two spades. I have K of spade, all check to me i bet out, one late call and bb call.
Turn: 2. Checked to me i bet out both call again.
River: 9s. Check. Early position is pretty solid he probably would have bet out. The player behind me is a fish who raises witha nything. should i bet out to trying to make 40 bucks more or check it down to him?
Well I checked it down, I took down pot. bb had AJ. My question is to bet or not to bet the river?
I think you chuck in a bet. There are many worse hands that will call.
Chris
I wouldn't bet in this situation because of the caller behind me. I may bet if I was last to act... but what do you do when you are raised. It is quite possible one of your oppenents is on the flush draw. Just my opinion.
Derrick Ashworth
I would check it down. The flush and the straight got there.
Yellow boy, that was a tough decision to make. Generally decisions on the river are the tricky ones. When it comes to "check or bet?", you should consider the possibility of the "fish" betting behind your check versus him or BB (or both) calling your bet. In the instance you have described I believe betting would have a better decision. Next time you are in doubt on the river - BET. Good luck.
With 2 callers it's a close decision. The flush and a str8 draw got home. Generally I like to bet here. The reason being it protects my hand. If I check and the fish tries a bluff, the BB can raise me off the pot with his AJ.
same 10-20 game. 2 middle position limp, I raise, button and blinds call. I have AA... 6 of us see flop of Q 9 2...suits odnt matter. SB bets out all call, I raise, button folds, rest calls. Turn is a 9. Checked to me. Should I bet out? I do and get raised by a middle position caller. I feel im beat but can't let go. River blank, i call. he turns over trip 9's. My question is with a big pot like this should I have let go my hand or call it down like i did?
If you start making this laydown on a regular basis (especially in situations where it is obvious that you have a hand)... well you know what I'm going to say next.
This is REALLY abusing the priviledge of 20/20 hindsight, but -
1. Since you showed as much strength as you did - raising before the flop AND on the flop - the others (no matter how unaware they might be) HAVE to give you credit for a real hand.
2. They absorbed alot of punishment themselves; they also have to have SOMETHING. (With that many of them out there, it probable that any card that pairs the board will take you out of the lead; even the deuce would have been a scary card, though not nearly as much so as the "9".)
3. Even if the check-raisor did not have you beaten, there were others in the pot who could have been helped by that "9".
Bottom line - you were faced with three decisions in this hand, and IMO you made the incorrect choice in each instance...
- I would not have bet the turn; not only were you almost assuredly beaten, a check may have induced a bet from a Queen on the river - in the unlikely event that your hand was the best.
- Once you were check-raised it's very difficult for you to call. It's very likely that you actually have TWO outs - one or even both of the other Aces were very likely held by your opponents meaning you had almost no chance of nailing your full house on the river.
- When you do call the turn and fail to improve, you are put in the position of having to call; if you don't you will find yourself the victim of alot of fancy raises in the future - it's going to be pretty obvious that you threw away a "real hand" (unless you have been seen raising with hands like JTs in other similar situations).
You can never allow yourself to become pegged as being too predictable, but I think you know what the proper play was here.
Check the turn and if it gets checked through whimper and call the river bet.
P.S. Don't feel too bad; sometimes in situations like these we find our hands take on a life of their own. Our brain says "check", but when we look down our hand is already shoveling chips into the pot. It's a common ailment; you are not the only one afflicted by it.
- It happens to me less often than it used to, but it still happens now and then.
Better luck,
J-D
J-D,
You provide some great insight here. Our hero (Yellow Boy) is in a tough situation. IMHO, the passive/tight player checks the turn, while the tight/aggressive bets it. I don't think the bet was a huge mistake as I probably would've done the same thing. I don't like to become a calling station with a hand like AA. I need to be the aggressive bettor. I can't give a free card to a hand like K10. However, when raised, I'd probably muck. This decision will also depend on my read of the player. Of course, there will be times when you are bluffed out by the raiser, but in the long run, if you play well post-flop (with all hands, not only AA), you should be able to make some good money. It takes a lot of discipline to muck hands like AA and KK as too many players seem psychologically committed to calling all the way with them.
With 5 callers you don't want the board to pair. But that can't stop you from betting the turn. The pot is large and you have to protect it against the str8 draws. Whether you call the check raise or not depends on the player. Occassionally I'll re-raise in this situation and then check the river. But only when I'm up against a deceptive opponeent.
15-30 game. Pretty loose with 4 certifiable fish, one lowball expert who has no clue about HE, one weak tight player who turns loose passive after the flop, two tight, decent playing props, and me (my play is up for debate =))
In the SB I find AK off. two calls to a Howitzer (H)of a fish (who's rushing) who raises. Button (the weak tight/loose passive guy) calls cold. I call, BB calls, and all call the second bet. I smooth called because of my position and because H would bet anything on the flop. There was a decent chance that I had him dominated since he often raises with anything (KJ off, KT suited, etc). If the flop comes favorable, I can check raise him and put pressure on him with the probable best hand, and he will pay me off if he has anything.
flop comes K83 with two clubs. I have the ace of clubs. checked to H who bets. Button calls, I raise, two calls and H calls.
turn is a blank. Checked to H who bets, and I raise again. two callers (button mucked) and H calls.
River is the 3 of clubs, pairing the board, but putting a three flush up. Checked around to H who bets again.
I was about to pitch it, but I realized that the only two players left were really tight (the props). They would lay down flushes under minimal pressure, and I still thought I had the best non-flush hand (note that this was an instantaneous thought process, and that I didn't hesitate at all), so I check-raised a third time. all fold to H who three bet it. I flat called.
Results, as usual, will follow. Please comment on my play on all streets.
H, of course turned over a KKK full house. Sun's gotta shine on a dog's @$$ sometimes, or stupid play(s)/reads by 2d? Not that the full surprised me too much, but, as I stated earlier, H would have played KT in a similar manner, trying to get me to lay down KJ or better. I think I just ran into his rush, but I lost so damn much on the hand that I gotta think that I could have lost less. Unfortunately, this time, he believed the hand I was representing, and still had enough to crush it, much less, my real hand. flame away!!
Absolutely ridiculous.
what was?
before the flop I would have 3 bet to isolate.
on the flop check raise is good. It might be good to bet and hoped to get raised here hoping to drive out players on a draw.
Blank on turn I would have bet if I checked raised, but it worked. However, even fish hit hands sometimes. I would have been happy to be in this check-raising situation though.
On the river I would check call if I was the only caller... and maybe check fold if there was another caller. Now I will read your results and see how I did.
Derrick
It appears the only place I would have lost less money was on the river. 2 or 3 BB less.
Derrick
pre flop: usually would have check-raised, but not through this crowd. in for one, in for all. Actually, the only one it might have chased out is the BB who made a flush (folded) on the river.
flop: given the size of the pot, I felt I had to cut down odds as much as possible. As I was certain that H would bet, I felt that a check raise would offer bad odds to the most people. If I bet and it's called through, to H who raises, and then I raise again, the pot is so big that I think everyone calls by rote anyway.
turn: usually would bet out after my check raise on the flop, but I've played with H enough that I was sure he'd bet. I still thought I had the best hand at this point.
river. When the flush came, I felt that it was either raise or fold, given the tightness of the other two players. up until my raise here, I thought my hand was good so my concern was chasing out the flushes if possible. I did, but it didn't help.
I think your checkraise on the river is a bit suspect, do you really think these guys int he middle (who cold called two on the flop AND the turn are going to fold once they make their hand!?), granted you put alot of pressure on these guys and maybe you might have gotten them to think about laying it down but i doubt they would do it).
I think the guy on the button didn't reraise bc he didn't want to lose the players in teh middle, and his slowwing down caused you to misplay your hand on the river. I suspect thought if you had played in a more straight forward manner you might have saved a bet or two (if you bet the turn after checkraising and now he raises you, you can justifiably slow down unless you have someone ont eh button who would do this w/a weaker hand than you w/all those callers inbetween (unlikely)).
Smooth calling out of SB with AKo is fine by me, intending to go for the checkraise if you hit the flop.
So far, so good. H bets the flop for you, but I would be at least a little concerned about the two props coldcalling a checkraise. I would bet the turn, feeling that given no 3-bet on the flop, I am likely ahead, and do not want to give out any free cards. If a club comes on the turn, I can stand a raise with my dry Ac.
I am more concerned about the club on the river than I am the fact it also paired the board. It is IMO very doubtful that anyone has filled up here, but I am now into check/call mode. I do not like the checkraise here. If one of the prop's made a flush, they would IMO be calling here regardless, wouldn't they? Why would you check the river if you made YOUR flush? They should know that YOU know that H can't have a shack given his betting pattern here. So when you check, unless these guys are extremely timid calling stations, if one (or both) of them made a flush, would they not bet the river for value? If you DO have a shack with something like pocket 8's, why wouldn't you be betting the river for value yourself?
What I'm trying to get across in a roundabout way is that this checkraise has little or no chance of getting a weak flush to lay it down from one of the limpers. Now even the maniacs get hands once in a while, and unless H is a complete idiot, you have just cost yourself an extra 2 big bets at the river. I mean, he has seen and heard you check-raise twice already, and now the flush comes and the board is paired and he is 3-betting you. I just can't see how AK is any good here, but at this point, I suppose you can't lay it down, either. Take your medicine.
Now I'll peek at the results.
Well, I was right, your hand was toast, but I think H just butchered this hand.
He smooth calls your checkraise on the flop, intending to pop you on the turn. Not bad, but a case can certainly be made for 3-betting the flop with top set and a flush draw on the board. But you disappoint him, and check the turn, so he bets out.
But you come to the rescue and checkraise, and not only that, he's got 2 coldcallers in between, ostensibly on some sort of drawing hands. Why isn't he 3-betting the turn for crying out loud? Does he expect these guys to pay him off on the river if they miss? But then he retrieves those extra 2 big bets from you on the river when you checkraise into his nut full. Maybe H knew what he was doing after all! LOL.
you're lucky u didn't get repopped on the river, turn or flop!!!
I did get repopped on the river. but part of the reason for each subsequent check-raise was that I hadn't gotten any resistance up until then.
Howdy
This situation happened quite often lately. I open raise with a hand like Ak, AQ, AJ, get only 1 opponent the big blind, and get top pair top kicker on the flop. he then check call the flop and check raise me on the turn on a board like 2 6 9 Q K. (For this example suppose i have AK)
Since this happened online, i dont have a good reading on most of the players even if i do keep notes. So my opponent is basically unknown to me. I have the tendancy to always call and then check call on the river. However, im always shown 2 pairs a slowplayed set or weird straight to beat me. I think the last 10-15 times it happened to me i never won lol.
So whats the best strategy in this kind of situation?
Ty for help
Charlie
In games below 10 20 you will almost never win with the type of hand you describe.
In 10 20 and above the biggest difference is that you don't always lose in this spot.
In lower level games online, this is the biggest difference between winning and losing, you have to give up these hands when checkraised on the turn, you will not win once in 10 times.
But also, against a good player, you must run a bluff once in a while too, cr the turn with nothing, most of these good players will run like hell unless they have a monster.
Mark
I agree with Erin that you will rarely win this type of hand. Here's why: You are representing a quality hand with your pre-flop raise. The flop has a big card, and you bet out. Your opponent will figure you for top pair or an overpair. His call means he got some part of the flop. The rag on the turn probably doesn't change his view of your hand, and his check-raise tells you he can at least beat top pair. You will almost always need to improve on the river to win.
Charlie:
I do and I don't agree with the assessment of your situation by Erin and Van. It is quite common in 10-20 and above when heads-up for some players to check-raise on the come (turn) and then bet out on the river. This is a frequent occurrence in higher limits, especially on-line. It's mandatory in these situations that you play the player. If I suspect a raise on the come, I will pop him back and let this player know that I will not be shy about playing back at him. In games of less talent, I think that you can save some bets by folding. After all, if you are not folding some winners, you are not playing correctly.
I'm in a loose 10-20 HE at Hollywood and come upon this hand in the BB. Loose player under the gun raises. This guy is a total maniac who has gone through $800 in the last hour and a half and has totally loosened up the table. Everyone calls!! I look down and see two red aces. Do I re-raise to represent or smooth call as it would be hard to see any card that wouldn't beat me? I call, planning to bet the flop. Flop comes A K 10. I bet. UG raises. two players call 20 cold and the button three bets. Do I cap or call? I called planning to check raise the turn as did the rest. 5 players left. Turn is another 10. I check. UG BETS!! Next player calls the other folds, and the button raises. I re-raise and UG Caps!! The other player folds leaving "THREE OF THE BEST". The turn is ACE!! I check, UG checks and the button bets. I raise. UG bitches and shows Kings full and mucks. Button re-raises, I cap while he proceeds to tell me I can't win and turns over quad tens!! I turn over my quads and his jaw hits the floor.
Needless to say that was a big pot, but I still would like my play evaluated. Did I extract all I could out of this pot?
You lost a few hundreds bets on that hand... i just cant understand your slowplaying on any streets
Charlie
I would have raised before the flop, bet and called on the flop, bet and called on the turn, and raised the river.
I think you were behind after both the flop and turn and got lucky on the river.
You should 3 bet preflop with all players involved. You will win much much more than your "fair share," so you will make money by doing this even if you don't win most of the time.
On the flop when the button 3 bets I would suspect QJ, but the pot is huge (and would be even huger if you 3 bet preflop) so I would still cap, hoping to convince someone with a gutshot draw to fold.
On the turn, if I had put in the last raise on the flop I would lead. If I had just called I would go for a checkraise as you did, and not stop raising no matter what.
On the river checking is absolutely insane. The only hand that should bet the river is quad tens, since you have all the aces. Every other hand would have to fear aces full. So you got pretty lucky here, aside from the obvious ;).
In short, always play aces fast preflop in multiway pots. Almost always play sets fast in multiway pots. Even though the pot was huge, you should have made more money on this hand. Quite a bit more.
Why bet a set which looks like it's beaten with very few outs.
The flop betting indicated a likely QJ and possibly another set or two pair. You may only have four outs if there is another set or five outs if there is two pair on the turn.
As it turned out, you may only have had one out on both the turn and river since there were two other sets, (I think the QJ may have folded on the turn).
I'm not sure which street you are talking about. As I explained, on the flop if there is a chance you do have the best hand (and there is definitely a good chance), then because the pot is so big you maximize your chances of staying in the lead by trying to knock out any limpers. The pot is at least 20 small bets preflop, should have been 30.
If you are talking about the turn, their is no reason to think that top full house isn't good. QJ is no longer ahead of you...
Why was there a cap... you were heads up?
sean
Yeah, you missed $200 bucks pre-flop by not re-raising and letting UTG-maniac 4 bet it.
Then you missed $50 more on the flop by not capping it.
So all in all you won $250 less than you should have.
On Sunday night I was playing in Michigan at a 10-20 game which was beyond loose. This table was just SICK. Most of the players on the table are usually ok but 2 or 3 sick players just turned the whole table into a bingo type game.
I've tried to keep my composure and not go on tilt but I just went through $500 and all my big hands have been going down. One of the SICK players has just been hitting EVERYTHING, and he RAISES EVERYTHING. Inside draws, low pairs, perfect-perfect flush and straight draws, you name it and he's hit it.
I'm on the button with A,A and by the time it comes to me it's already been raised to 20, I go 30 and the Lucky Maniac is Big blind caps the damn thing. We have 8 players in the hand, yes I say 8, capped!!!!
Flop comes 6,4,A rainbow. Maniac big blind bets someone raised to 20, I smooth call 20, maniac reraises 30 and the other player caps 40. I call and at this point there are still 5 players including myself in the hand.
Turn comes a K. Maniac checks, the capper on the flop bets, I raise, maniac calls and better calls. Everyone else folded. Now 3 left.
Rivers another 6. So board shows 6,4,A,K,6. Maniac bets out, other guy folds and starts swearing (I think he was open ended draw). I start my Hollywood role and start saying "I can't believe this, how lucky can you get, you hit everything, I don't believe you have a 6 this time though". I Raise, he reraises, I reraise and it went on for 4 or 5 bets. At this point I have no more chips in front of me, I can't raise anymore. He turns over 6,7 off (he had trips). I turn over my Aces and take half his stack.
What a HAND!!!!! I took me like 5 minutes just to stack the chips (must have been the biggest 10-20 pot I have ever taken down)
You really had to be there to see the table reaction and the player's reaction. The Maniac player then continued to donate the rest of his stack and left the table with a little under $300 left.
Nice slowplay. Yeah that extra half bet is worth it. Suck em in, don't wanna lose anyone, I get it.
Big Willy,
Did that hand occur at Mount Pleasant Sunday night?
yeah man,
Were you at the table????????
I will get right to the point,i need the mathmatical formula for figuring probability of completing a hand. The percentages are on page 309 of hold em for advanced players,but i can't get the same percentages. The book does not give you the formula and it is driving me mad. Can anyone help me please.
If you calculate the probability of not making your hand it often simplifies things.
FOr ex if you have A s 3 s and the flop is
Ks 8s 7h ,
the probability you don't make a flush is
38/47(37/46).
I think there are some mistakes on that table too.
Is the probabability of not filling a set 67% (40/47)*(36/46) or is it 62% (37/47)*(36/46).
YOur first one. But that includes making quads. You have seven outs on the flop and ten outs on the turn. I didn't check the numbers, but your formula is correct.
Don't you also have 10 outs on the turn, i.e. the 7 you know about, and the 3 outs that match the river card.
No. Each street needs to be dealt with independently because they are independent events. To clarify, you definitely have 7 outs on the flop to fill up or make quads on the turn agreed? So if you hit one of these outs on the turn then you actually have less outs on the river to improve.
That calculation of this hand using the formula (40/47)*(36/46) is the calculation of NOT making a full house OR quads. The underlying theory of this calculation is as follows. The probability of not making a full house or quads on the turn is 40/47. If you do not make a full house or quads on the turn then the turn must be a card of a different rank, thereby giving you an additional 3 outs to improve on the river. Therefore, on the river the probability of not improving to a full house or quads, given that you did not improve on the turn, is 36/46. Therefore the combined probability of NOT improving is the probability of NOT improving on the turn AND the probability of NOT improving on the river which is (40/47)*(36/46).
If this is the probability of not improving on either street then the probability of improving must be equal to 1 - (probability of not improving). This is obvious since the probability of not improving plus the probability of improving must equal 100% (or 1).
It should be noted that calculating the probability of improving in this is the combination of ALL possible ways that you can improve (ie. you may make a full house on the turn and then make another full house on the river, or make quads on the turn and a full house on the river, or not making anything on the turn and making quads on the river, etc.)
I hope this helps clarify things.
Definitely errors with the labelling of the number of outs for each type of hand (ie. straight flush draw).
you should change you name to stats man. At least you are putting that phD to work.
"By taking the expected value...............standard deviation.......................squared....................you achieve a 95% confidence interval yap yap yap yap yap yap.
the title says it all. clueless player (CP) trying to play well (but failing) open raises 2nd to go. one fold behind him, and truly psycho player (TP) three bets it. I'm next and look down to two red Qs. fold or raise? I raise(cap). right choice? fold to crazy lady on the button (CL)who calls four cold. sb calls and bb mucks. all call the cap.
flop comes J22 rainbow. I'm concerned about the buttona and the SB. SB plays well, but he's shown down some pretty funky stuff in the past. button is just plain nuts and playing anything.
checked to me. I bet. SB drops, but all else call. turn is 5d, putting two diamonds on board. checked to me and I bet, all else call. normally, I'd start getting worried about my queens at this point, but not with this crew. if I were beat, I'd have heard about it.
river is Ad. CP checks, Tp bets. at this point, I perform a perfect flop shot (for you golfers out there) with my cards, pitching them high and landing them safely, softly in the muck. CL raises, CP calls cold, and TP calls.
any guesses as to what they held? results will follow.
TP turned his cards face-up before anyone did anything and said "I know I'm beat, but I had to call"(????) and shows AK. TP flashes me AQ and mucks. CL proudly turns over 10-8 of diamonds for the flush.
Everyone was right where I put them. Unfortunately, the best reads in the world do not make you money if the cards aren't there. Is this what they mean by theoretical profit? if so, theoretical profit sucks.
I did not read the results but I would say you had the best hand until the river. You played it the right way and had some calling stations/psychos that stay in no matter what. I would say someone had an ace, and the others, who knows what those guys had, if they were as wild as you describe. To quote a line from "Reservoir Dogs", -"you cant work (in this case play) with a psycho, you never know what those sick fu*ks are going to do"...
Ya know, I've dropped about four to five racks in this game in the past week, and love it. I'll get it back.
I'll look at the results after but I would guess that TP had AK. CL had K-10 of diamonds or 9-10 or something like that and CP also had AK. Now I'll how close I was.
As far as what to do before the flop with QQ. You MUST at least call do not think of folding. I don't think it matters if you 3 bet or cap. Neither is too wrong.
To go along with the player typing here, I'd like to add: The Young Stock Broker
You often find these in mid-limit games here in the bay area. They get to the card room early in the afternoon (markets close at 1 pacific), and are dressed better than the other patrons.
These guys like to gamble. After all, that's what they do for work. Q9 off? raise!! I'm on a rush!! J8suited? raise!! I'm running bad, but it has to turn around sometime.
These guys look for small edges all day long at their jobs, but give away the farm after work. The only problem is that the cards don't care. they'll win 1 in every ten pots just like you.
So, what should you do? don't look here for answers. I'm not sure myself. On the one hand, they're crazy, crappy players. On the other, they're usually pretty intelligent (assumed given their occupation). I think the main thing to bring into these player's games is a strong mind. Don't tilt, play well and you'll get their money (sometimes quickly, sometimes thehard way).
Oh, yeah, bring a big backroll. You can't win a duel against a howitzer when you have a BB gun.
i have been running bad for about 40 hours of playing. The bad run has made me a much better player overall but i still can't win.
My run has not been that horrible though... In the 40 hours im down about 50 (am still up overall at both games) big bets at 10-20 and 30 big bets at 5-10
My question to the pros is long do youre bad runns usually last for and what is the worst run that you have exparienced. Just mainly to make me feel better.
some of the things that have been happening to me are
1 if i flop a set some one will have a higher set
2 if i have a big pocket pair some one will have a bigger one or flop a set 3 i miss all my draws
4 i have lost to about 7 quads and almost always i have the top boat when this happens
5 some one always catches perfect perfect on me
All comments are appreciated
when u run bad for 400 hours, then come talk to me
you ran bad that long?
I don't believe you lost with top boat seven times. If all of the above happened you should be down a lot more. The story is not believable. My guess is, leak leak leak.
40 hours is nothing. What is that, 4 or 5 sessions?
$1300 isn't that much for 40 hours either.
If you lost to quads 7 times, missed every draw and lost to an over set every time you flop a set you must be playing very well to only be down $1300.
With no records and a bad memory it's hard to say what the worst was. Short range, I've gone over six consecutive hours without a pot about half a dozen times in the last three years. Long range, I've lost 10 consecutive sessions or thereabouts about half a dozen times over that same period.
The worst thing about bad runs, for me, is not WHEN they happen, but THAT they happen. They can start anytime, and do. Just about the time I think I've got the world by the balls, BAM, weeks on end of losing losing losing. Sometimes more like months, because when I'm running bad, I hardly play, and when I do, I play too tight.
I believe the main things that keeps me afloat are stop-losses, short sessions, and extreme discipline when it comes to being mentally ready and feeling good EVERY time I walk into a casino.
Poker humbles. It's good in that way.
Tommy
I lost $14,000 in two consecutive sessions of 80/160. 16 hours total. that was very very humbling!
Actually loosing those boats didn't cost as much as you would think, only 3 times i lost alot on them.
3 of them were 1 player who checked all the way but bet out on the river, the first time i raised and got reraised, and the rest i just called after she bet out.
1 was a friend of mine, it was heads up and he showed his hand right awey cause he didn't want to take any money from me.
The sets that i have lost i didn't cost me much cause they were always against bad players. When i raised on the turn they would just call and then only call on the river, To be honest with you I thought i had had it won all the way till they show a bigger set
One of the reasons i it may seem to you that im not down so much is the fact that i haven't been playing many hands and i haven't been hitting the flop much at all.
Alot of times what happens is that i hold a decent hand like KJoff(im actually excited when i see a hand that i might play :)) but it gets raised buy some one in early position and or rerasied, so i havve no option but to fold.
What happens to me usually is that i will win one pot and then loose 2 on the river.
400 hours...WOW I don't know if i can handle 150 bad hours, I hope it stops for you. its actually been 7 sessions an two of them have been small wins one for 300 and one for 200
What kind of game have you been playing in if you've had "small wins" of 300 and 200 at 10-20 limit? These seem like pretty solid sessions to me, unless you're playing for 3 days straight. If these wins do represent "small wins" three things are happening:
1. This is a VERY wild game - in which case you can lose a ton in a hurry, regardless of how bad the players are. This is because you're std deviation is gonna be a bunch higher. I always think to myself, the more suckers, the more suck-outs. This leads to huge swings, albeit at a higher win rate, but you will have many losing sessions, too. In games like this, you can easily be stuck after 300+ hours of play, no matter how good you are. Consider yourself lucky.
2. You really aren't a winning player and have been catching amazing cards for awhile and your results are dominated by the short-run phenomenon of the std deviation. If this is true, both your wins and losses will be large, and if you get a few more good than bad sessions - you see yourself as a winner.
3. You are the greatest hold em player in the world at 10-20 and you can make something like 5+ BB/hr or more. I doubt it.
I'm sorry if my post sounds condescending or like I'm attacking you personally. I don't mean it to sound that way - you just need to be congniscent of the std deviation and your wins and losses. Read Mason's book for more on this, because it really is important to understand as it sounds like you are new to the game since you haven't experienced a long losing streak yet. Remember that it could literally take thousands of hours of play to know your win rate.
my average win at 10-20 is about 300 the reason i call them small is because I see players winning 600-1000, I just recently moved up to 10-20 I used to play 5-10. In about 70 hours at 10-20 Im up 650.
U said:
". In about 70 hours at 10-20 Im up 650. "
Sadly these results are meaningless. You could lose that in your next 2 hours of play. I know the feeling, won a lot when i started playin but now im on a losin streak (still a winner overall however). ya gotta live with it!!
You'll see that the people who are most likely to make huge scores in these games are the total suckers. They play a ton of hands and have the ability to win a ton of pots in a hurry if they get lucky. Obviously, this doesn't happen often. I will admit that wins of about 400-600 are fairly common in the wild games that I play in Northern CA, but this is not as much the case in tighter games. My biggest win in 10-20 was 1000 - and that was an amazing session! Of course, I don't care about short-term results, and am content to make my 30 bucks an hour to sit on my ass half-asleep.
dorrex-
40 hours is but a blink of an eye statistically speaking. As long as you're continuing to play well, I wouldn't even waste time worrying about it.
I was playing HE with a lady this weekend who was keeping notes on going to the river. Every time she called on the river she marked down whether she won or lost.
Does anyone see any value in doing this? If so, what would be a reasonable win percentage?
I feel that i win aboout 1-3 that i call the river, except that if i am going to call the river i am ussually the one to have bet it.
If you do not win 1 in 4 or 5 hands called at the river you probally have a leak in your game and are calling to much.
Calling: 30%
Betting: 70%
One guy at my table yesterday (LIVE game!!!) was markin down each flop tryin to figure out which cards were good to play. For example if the board had a lot of 4 and 5 lately, he play them!!! (now i know why he called my UTG raise (AA) with J4o and then continue til the end with a A25 board.... Of course the river was a 3 and the turn also a blank oh well...)
One of the weirdest and non sense thing i saw on a poker table!!
oH BTW he ended up about even and i lost. MMMM should i take lessons from him :o))))
Charlie
At Bay101 there are 3 props who play regularly in the mid-limit games. Prop #1 is a goofball and gives pretty good action so I don't mind when he is in the game. Prop #2 seems to be a decent if unimaginitive player. Prop #3 is definitely the tightest of the three but he has a very curious playing style. Here are three hands that kind of surprised me. I was not involved in any of the hands. limit is 15-30.
Hand #1 - game is currently tight and passive. #3 limps in early position with A-Ks. this is the hand that really caught my attention. rate this play.
Hand #2 - game is currently ideal. #3 is on the button. certified nutcase is in the big blind and there is a loose-agressive (LA)player in mid-position (but not maniac, has some grasp of advanced hold'em skills). On the turn only these three players are in the pot. the board reads 9-10-J-x with two suited cards. nutcase leads, LA calls, #3 raises, Nutcase re-raises, LA calls, #3 caps it, Nutcase and LA call. another rag falls on the river; there is no possible flush. Nutcase leads out again, LA folds and #3 FOLDS!!
What the hell could #3 have that he would cap it on the turn and then fold to one bet on the river? The only hand that I could think of is possibly a busted baby flush where #3 put LA on a flush draw as well and was trying raise him out in case the flush came. Now its possible the nutcase had K-Q for the nutty nuts, but believe me, this guy would pound the pot with Q-8 or even 7-8 so if you had even the second nut you would HAVE to call. All in all a really strange play from #3.
Hand #3 - game has been tight with occaisional bursts of loose play. Our hero is in the big blind. There are 4 limpers plus the small blind. #3 raises. at end of hand he drags pot with A-Ko. Comments?
Hand #1 - I don't like smooth calling with AKs in early - in fact I don't like smooth calling with it in any position. But I would suspect that he doesn't smooth call with AKs in early all the time - just seems like the kind of hand that some players will mix up their preflop play with
Hand #2 - all I can think of is AQ - with the flush draw and the straight draw, giving him 15 outs - which is only about even money with 2 other guys in - and that's assuming neither of them are on the flush draw either. I don't like the raises, but its probably just added volatility, and not negative expectancy.
Hand #3 - what's wrong with raising with AKo with 5 other guys in? I think this is slightly positive expectation. None of the limpers alone has a better hand at this rate (maybe small pairs at best) - and if he's only 20/25% to win this hand, it's still worth it to get an extra bet in preflop since there's 5 other guys in.
1) Personally, I don't think limping in early position with AKs is that bad of a play. As Docriver points out, it mixes up your play pre-flop, keeping people guessing. Also, I think if you play well and hit the right flop, you can trap players with worse hands for a lot of bets.
2) Again I would agree with Docriver that the prop had a busted flush/straight draw. If the prop had any kind of a hand that could win in a showdown against a nutcase, I'm sure he would have called the river. The pot is simply too large at this point.
3) Actually this hand would be the biggest surprise. I usually see loose-aggressive players and maniacs make this play (raising out of the BB with AKo in a multi-way pot). The raise has virtually no chance of eliminating anyone who has limped in pre-flop, makes the pot bigger than it should be thus sometimes tying people to their hands or draws, and you are severely out of position the entire hand. But again I think if you play well you can either win a big pot or lose the minimum.
Just curious, I play at Bay 101 frequently (usually 3-6 and 6-12) and pretty much know all the props there, is prop#1 and older gentleman with a hole in his throat and would prop#3 be a younger man with a black leather jacket?
the only play I really disagreed with was hand #2. He didn't play hands #1 and #3 the way I would have but that's what makes poker an art and not a science.
as for limping with AK, if you want to mix up your play this is one way to do it. If there is a solid player in any of the blinds (especially at 15-30 because sb 2/3 of bet) then I would never limp with AK only because you want those players out. giving a solid and tricky player a free play in the blind can be turn out to be a major pain in the ass.
#1 has the accent and you are correct about #3.
Boris,
I think I am going to amend my previous post. I think you are correct about not limping in with AK, especially in a mid limit game (also with the 2/3 SB). I rarely play the 15-30 , but when I do the opponents are much tougher and aggressive than the lower limits. You are right, don't let them in cheap! I guess I have been playing the 3-6 too long.
I also agree with your assesment of how the prop played the hand#2 especially with the maniac in the pot.
I have played with the prop on several occasions. You are right he is an interesting player. Not too talkative, but probably one the best playing employee of Bay 101(Chuck Thompson's pretty tough too!). I played a little bit with him in the 15-30 last Sunday.
Anyway, Good Luck to you.
I would limp UTG with AK if:
1) Every pot for the last two days was at least seven handed.
2) I had just lost 20 pots in a row on the river.
3) John Bonham rose from the grave and told me to.
Tommy
First realize that mid-limit props never make plays for image - they just don't log the continuous hours at the table needed to make this worthwhile. Those that do are generally cowboys who need the money to stay alive in the game. I play in the Bay 15-30 every once and awhile and have played many strange hands with prop #3. To say his style is wacky doesn't go far enough. He's a total moron. He does some pretty strange things, but I won't discuss them here. However, the three hands that you were in I will:
#1: I think that he was afraid of the "feeding frenzy" that often occurs in this game, especially on the weekends. Often, the maniacs (there's usually 2 in the game at any time) will raise and re-raise whenever somebody opens with a raise. They start yelling "gamble gamble!!" and toss their chips in the pot. You're probably familiar with this one. He's trying to lower his variance with this play, since he knows that these guys will never fold the hand - so he needs to hit the flop to win. I strongly disagree with his play, but I can see some wisdom in it. #2: He's got A-Q suited. This isn't a bad play mathematically, I don't think (assuming that the Q is an out for 1/2 the pot) - but it adds to his variance, which is counter to hand #1 - but that seems like his stupid playing style. #3: For feeding frenzy reasons above, I would never raise here in the BB with AKo in the Bay 15 game, because it could be capped by the time it got back to me. While it may be the best hand - you've gotta hit a flop to win. I would lay low and bet out if I flopped something, even as weak as a J-10-X flop. It would probably be raised at least once by the time it got back to me, and I could either call or reraise to isolate, depending on the players involved.
The moral of the story is that many props just aren't very smart. Furthermore, most are good, but not great players. If they were great, they'd play on their own time.
I would like to get opinions about the river bet that a friend of Roy Cooke's made in his latest CardPlayer article entitled: "Rereading the Situation". Here is the background.
It is a $30-$60 game. A very tight player limps in upfront and gets immediately raised by a tourist. Roy 3 bets with AsKd and a live one on the button calls $90 cold. Roy's friend is in the small blind and calls for another $70. Roy's friend is a tight player. The big blind folds and everyone else calls. There is $480 in the pot and five players.
The flop is: Q-T-9 rainbow
It is checked to the button who bets. Everyone calls. There is $630 in the pot.
The turn is: 5h
There is now a two flush on the table. It is checked to the button who bets. Only Roy's friend in the small blind calls. There is $750 in the pot and two players.
The river is: Ah
This makes a Heart flush possible. Roy's friend now bets and the button calls. The button wins having the Th9s for two pair while Roy's friend had AcKs for a top pair of Aces at the river.
I don't like the small blind's river bet. While a worse hand will call, a better hand will always call and might even raise. I would check and call if the button bets the river, perhaps inducing a bet from a worse hand.
What does everyone else think?
I think its a marginal bet, but in a large pot like this one, I would lean toward value betting. Quite a few hands will call. You seem to light to screw it down a little tighter than most, and there is nothing wrong with checking the river either.
Yes screwing it down to the rust does seem to be the way to go here. By the way Roy Cooke is a fish. Keep the assanine comments rolling JV.
If you make the flop QT8, I would whole-heartedly support the small blind's bet (as the other guy would be hard pressed to raise with even top set as the small blind could have Broadway). With the QT9 flop, I think that either checking or betting is fine. Bet against those who will not raise with a straight. Check against those who will.
I did not notice that the river card completed a backdoor flush.
That being the case, I like the bet a little more now.
If the other guy has a better hand, he will likely bet it after Roy's buddy ("RB") checks. That is, despite the fact that the board shows a flush, a guy with 2 pair will bet for value given that the made flush was of a backdoor variety. RB will have to call that bet.
On the other hand, it is unlikely that the other dude will bet a hand worse than RB's hand if RB checks.
Further, if RB bets, it is unlikely that the other dude will raise even with KJ as he now has to fear that RB may have backed into a flush.
On balance, I like RB's bet.
The point is not whether or not he will bet with a better hand, it is whether he will call with a worse hand.
Vince
Skp's point was whether he would bet a worse hand. If he will bet a worse hand, then checking is usually the right move. Skp says he probably won't bet a worse hand, and probably wont raise with a better hand if bet into so betting is the right play. Skp's point is legit.
If he will bet any hand that beats you, but check any hand that doesnt beat you AND he wont raise if you bet, then betting is the only option. You lose the same when your beat, but win a Big Bet when he calls with a worse hand.
Now if he will check some hands that beat you, then there is more of a dilemna. The question is will he check more winning hands than losing hands that he would call with.
If he will bet worse hands than yours, then the question becomes will he bet more losing hands than he would call. The answer to this one is usually yes.
Now I may have just spotted a leak in my game, but when I'm first to act, I usually don't overly concern myself with whether or not a better hand will call me on the river. I much prefer a bet go into the pot when I feel it's even slightly more than even money for me to have the best hand. I'm more concerned about being raised by a better hand which I might have to pay off. When last to act, I feel very differently about betting. I'll have to think some more about this.
Kevin
"If he will bet any hand that beats you, but check any hand that doesnt beat you AND he wont raise if you bet, then betting is the only option."
In this case you could check and fold with impunity, so the question would become whether he would call with more hands than he will bet. If he could hold ten hands, nine beat you and one doesnt, a bet would win once out of ten.( i have assumed he will always call here. ) Would a bet be correct here? Conversely, if he could hold ten hands and only one beats you, then you would win nine out of ten times.
"Now if he will check some hands that beat you, then there is more of a dilemna. The question is will he check more winning hands than losing hands that he would call with. "
It still remains part of the equation that he may bet a worse hand anyway, namely a bluff. The chance of a raise on the end is highly pertinent as well.
Agreed?
Regards.
P.s. Keep quiet about the shorthanded stuff would ya? :)
Yeah, that is a very valid point. I was assuming you would always call any bet, but if he will only bet better hands then you would always just check-fold.
"The point is not whether or not he will bet with a better hand, it is whether he will call with a worse hand. "
Or...
Whether he would call with a worse hand that he would not have bet vs. calling with some better hands which he would have bet but will not now raise, along with the chances that he might now bet a worse hand as a bluff. Aren't these factors also the point Vince?
Kevin
Yes. Plus the fact that with this board and the prior action in this hand A,A is a mediocre holding. Betting mediocre hands is not a great play unless you are Mike Caro and know that when the guy blows his nose without his handkerchief he ain't got nuthin.
Vince
Given the size of the pot, the chances of him calling when he has a hand that does not beat AK are quite high.
I think you are saying that the flush possibility would probably scare the guy with 2 pair and he would most likely check it down. Assuming that this is your point it seems that way to me as well.
I believe this hand is an underdog when called. Secondly, I believe that the opponent will check many hands that can beat it, given the board, and may even continue to bluff at the pot if it so happens he only has a Jack or another "live one" bluffing hand. These two factors indicate, checking with the intention of calling is correct, IMHO.
If you believe the AK hand is the favorite when called (I don't, usually, given the play, but this is judgment.), then I think the opponent certainly would call with more hands than he would bet with and then betting probably becomes correct, especially if you can safely fold( yuck) to a river raise.
I'm working on a river play strategy right now that uses a shortcut(meaning at a glance) bayes theorem approach (with judgement), that will help with this type of analysis.
Remember, the live one bet into a strong field of preflop aggressors, his hand is probably a favorite to the Ace pair.
Regards.
what did Roy Cooke think?
Roy did not comment on his friend's river bet. Roy was explaining in his article why he folded on the turn. Roy discounted a lot of his outs based on his friend calling pre-flop out of his small blind.
it makes a lot of sense to discount the outs. this reminds me a little of that KQ hand in your article. it would be nice if we could come to a definitive methodology in these cases.
Regards.
Well, if you play with A,K expecting that if you hit one of your cards that it will be the best hand, I suppose you should bet. But in this case with this board and the prior action he has a mediocre hand at best. What could the "live one" have? He called three bets cold? I might have given him A,Q. But with this board he could have made a hand by accident. Which is what happened. The problem with betting is having to muck or call to a raise. I check and call. What did Cooke say?
vince
Roy did not comment on his friend's river bet. The purpose of his article was to explain how you have to discount a lot of your outs in these situations given the betting action, the texture of the board, and your knowledge of your opponents. He was explaining why he folded his hand.
I know your post doesn't address this, but it might still be relevant. I think his friend should've mucked on the turn, since it's unclear whether an ace or king helps him. Also, because 5 players called on the flop, the number of jacks left for his straight are suspect as well. I'm not sure how the likelihood of soming backing into a heart draw factors in, but I would think it does some.
So now on the river, he hits one of his murkier outs. The question is how much value does a bet have. He figures to get called from KQ,QJ and AJ. With the possible execption of AJ, none of these hands are likely to bet the river for him. Even though there are probably more hands which beat him, rather than pay him off, he can bet with impunity into some of these hands, since they would be hard pressed to raise. I think you need to weigh these factors along with the chance of inducing a bluff. All in all, a close decision. This is why I think the river is sometimes the trickiest street in hold'em.
Kevin
Maybe to term "figures" to get called by these hands is a little presumptuious. I would probably call a typical player as last to act if all folded to me with any queen, on the outside chance he'd be betting a busted jack. btw- I doubt I would be holding these cards for 3-bets pre-flop, but I mean if I were.... : )
Kevin
It must be why Roy folded knowing that when his friend called his own outs were for half the pot.
The turn could certainly be folded knowing that 2 outs are dirty. They are compensated by the AK outs that are left and the chance they are good.
To make calling OK on the turn Roys friend would have to know that Roy either doesn't have AK OR that he will fold AK if he calls first.
So, I agree. In most cases, except the one mentioned a fold is correct on the turn. Once called, the river bet or check-call seems very to be very close.
With the flush coming backdoor, and the opponent being a "live one", I don't think there's much chance of opponent laying down a better hand than A-K. That being the case, what hand did Roy's friend put his opponent on that he could beat and that opponent would call with? K-Q or J-Ts come to mind, possibly A-J. K-K & JJ are unlikely as opponent would likely have 4-bet pre-flop. On the other hand, opponent could have a straight, a flush, a set or two pair. I check and call.
I don't like Roy's friend's call on the turn. What do others think?
"I don't like Roy's friend's call on the turn. What do others think? "
Not given the action, although the pot odds appear to be there on cursory inspection. This is sometimes an illusion.
Regards.
Andy,
I would check and call on the river if I was Roy's friend for the reasons most of the forum posters have mentioned (I'm behind on my reading).
You were the first to bring up the turn call where Roy's friend called and Roy folded with the same hand. Roy's friend has almost the same odds as Roy but should have worried about many of the same factors leading Roy to fold (e.g., dead jacks). But he also had to worry about a checkraise since the whole field had called the flop. Roy's folded even though his action closed the betting. So Roy's friend could very well have paid two bets drawing to maybe two jacks for half the pot with his aces and kings being dubious outs.
Is this why you don't like it?
Regards,
Rick
Yes, too many players yet to act behind, plus it might well have been the case, given the number of players, and especially Roy in the hand, that many of the outs caller considered he had were not really available, likely they were in other players' hand. I haven't read the article, but from Jim's comments I assume this was Roy's point; Roy apparently folded knowing his friend was tight and therefore likely held two of Roy's out cards.
I like the call for 1 reason only.
Roy had to fold and we get to read about a hand lost rather than a great win by Roy against a live one.
This is nothing against Roy Cooke but just a comment on the usual slant of his stories.
;-P
I know your comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but I really don't find Roy's articles to be self-congratulatory. I didn't see this one, but I think Roy's articles are generally helpful and informative. I don't know the man, but I know it is difficult to discuss particular hands in such details as it does, which 1) tells other people who will be playing against him how he plays; and 2) subjects him to criticism when he makes a mistake.
Mason and David both seems to think Roy is a very good player and a fine writer.
Andy,
I think that Roy is a great mid-limit player too and has proven it over a long period. But I do think as a result of a little needling and constructive criticism on this forum (especially in some of Jim Brier's posts) and on RGP (especially by Tom Weideman), he has changed the flavor of his recent articles.
It used to be that Roy would correctly justify a thin call or raise based on myriad factors, get the card he needed, and win a monster pot. When my girlfriend/poker student picked up his book, I was terrified. She didn't need any more excuses to make thin calls or aggressive raises at her experience level. I hid the Cooke book and replaced it with the Ciaffone “Improve Your Poker” book. Poker is mostly about trench warfare and small pots and Ciaffone excels in this book.
Lately Roy writes more about small pots, good folds, and mistakes he makes. I think he is safe for an aspiring player to read again :-).
Regards,
Rick
While I have the deepest respect for Jim Brier and his play, I have to disagree with him here. First, if you are going to play the hand to the river and make your hand, you better be ready to bet it. There are great arguments for the player calling on the turn. Ithink folding is correct here....but we are only address the bet on the river.
What most of the posters and perhaps Jim are forgetting is that the bet has a chance to win the pot right there. A call cannot do this. If I had played the AK to the river and made my hand there, I would pop out with a bet immediately. The fact that it brings in the flush only makes me MORE willing to bet it. Remember, if the button is a live player, then he is likely to be a poor player. This increases the likely hood that he would lay down two pair thinking the straight or flush has him beat.
Finally, as Sklansky says in the Theory of Poker, a poker player wants to give his opponents opportunities to make mistakes. Cooke's friend did exactly this. As a result, I think the river bet is sound IF you are still in at the river with this hand.
I hope others will comment
"Finally, as Sklansky says in the Theory of Poker, a poker player wants to give his opponents opportunities to make mistakes. "
This concept does not apply here. I hope Sklansky will explain why.
Vince
There is no way a live one is going to fold a better hand here. A live one will call 100% of the time when he can beat a pair of Aces. Live ones are the last players on earth who will ever make a tough fold at the river.
"Live ones are the last players on earth who will ever make a tough fold at the river."
But generally, calling on the river is the proper play i.e. this does not make them "live ones". After all the cards are out, I generally prefer to be up against a supposedly good player as opposed to a live one. The live one will rarely let me steal a pot but will almost always pay me off. The good player on the other hand will often not pay me off but I am going to pull a couple of fast ones on him here and there. In that sense, he (the good player) actually becomes the live one.
a truly good player is likely to raise your river bet when he puts you on a thin AK bet and he beats it.
I'll take the live one anytime.
Regards.
Point taken.
What I was really saying there is that the river is not the place to make good laydowns. I payoff a lot on the river and don't intend on changing that aspect of my game. The acid test for me is the turn. If I call there, I am likely to call again on the river (unless I just missed a draw or something).
agreed %100.
being a calling station on the river, especially for one bet, is usually good poker.
Regards.
Nobody's putting you on a thin AK bet and then raising when the Broadway and the backdoor flush come in.
The river made no change in "broadway", if by that you mean a straight.
My question then, Jim, is why keep calling with AK in this hand if when you hit one of your outs you arent going to bet your hand?
Dear IowaMatt,
Sorry i'm not Jim, but there is a gutshot straight as well. This comprises the bulk of your reason to call on the earlier rounds.
whether or not to bet the river is governed by principles outlined above by several posters, the how and why you got there is not highly relevant.
I am not saying the bet on the end is incorrect necessarily either.
by the way, I don't necessarily agree with the chase with AK; more info is needed to assess the discount of outs.
Regards.
sorry for butting in, Jim B.
Interestingly enough, you post caused me to go back and check whether it was appropriate for Roy's friend to call on the flop and turn. It seems that the call on the flop is actually right based on outs verses payoff calculations EVEN if the ace and the king are no good.
The call on the turn is a little less clearly the right call, though not all that far off given implied odds. By my calculations (if they care correct) Roy's friend needs $833 in the pot to call and there is 820 there. With implied odds he is correct to call for the gutshot. Given this, perhaps a check call on the river is the best course of action.
10-20 online HE.
1) QQ in middle position, one early limper, I raise button calls, limper reraises I call. Limper is a fish, button is new to the game. Flop comes K 6 2. Limper bets. Should I toss here given I put him on AKs, KK or AA becuase of his preflop raise?
2) AQs in bb. Early limper rest fold to sb who raises. I think about reraising, but just call. limper calls. Flop comes A 7 2. Sb bets out I raise, limper folds, he reraises, I call. Turn is a 2, He bets out. Im thinking either AK or AQ. Should I call him down to the river given this board, raise or fold?
3) 88 on the button. ALl fold to me, I raise, both blinds call. Flop 10 10 9. Checked to me I bet, sb raises. Should I call or fold. I figure he has at least a 9 and wouldn't straight out bluff me but im not sure. I don't have a good read here. I call for 10 more and turn is a Q. He bets should I raise to represent queens, call, or fold?
1. Generally, in the games I play a limp re-raise before the flop represents AA or KK. I would fold to the over card on the board, and even if it hadn't come I would have just check called. This may be weak, but 90% of the time an early limp re-raise is huge.
2. I would check call it down without knowing any information about the SB. I would have definitely re-raised preflop though.
3. How sure are you that the SB has a 9 or better. The pot has 10 SB in it (assuming the BB folded on the flop). On the turn you call or raise if you think you have about an 18% or better of winning. The Q on the turn doesn't help your cause at all.
Just My opinions.
Derrick Ashworth
ill give this a shot: "1) QQ in middle position, one early limper, I raise button calls, limper reraises I call. Limper is a fish, button is new to the game. Flop comes K 6 2. Limper bets. Should I toss here given I put him on AKs, KK or AA becuase of his preflop raise?"
dont you dare put him on that in an online game. id be a little afraid of the button raising behind you with something like KQs. i think you have a clear call on the flop, maybe a raise, but do you think you can be confident enough to fold to a reraise in a typically loose online game? that doesnt really answer your question does it? raise and see if you can lose the button then fold if you are bet into on the turn.
"2) AQs in bb. Early limper rest fold to sb who raises. I think about reraising, but just call. limper calls. Flop comes A 7 2. Sb bets out I raise, limper folds, he reraises, I call. Turn is a 2, He bets out. Im thinking either AK or AQ. Should I call him down to the river given this board, raise or fold?"
CALL him down! i wouldve liked a reraise preflop to maybe lose the limper. plus you could see if you get 4 bet by the SB.
"3) 88 on the button. ALl fold to me, I raise, both blinds call. Flop 10 10 9. Checked to me I bet, sb raises. Should I call or fold. I figure he has at least a 9 and wouldn't straight out bluff me but im not sure. I don't have a good read here. I call for 10 more and turn is a Q. He bets should I raise to represent queens, call, or fold?"
youre gone on this one. i think he does have a 9. i wouldve folded right there on the flop. you could call him down but i think youre beat so oftern that it's a negative EV thing.
(1) People either limp reraise because they have extreme strength or because they are aggressive players who either think they can push you off your hand or think that it's good to reraise any pair few ways. Which type is this guy? If he's an aggressive player who will often limp reraise without much of a hand then you should have capped preflop. If he's only going to limp reraise legitimate hands, you should fold if an ace or king flops.
(2) Just call down against typical opponents.
(3) If you were going to continue with this hand, you needed to reraise on the flop, bet the turn, and check behind on the river. Otherwise fold the checkraise.
Chris
The game is 10/20 @ Hollywood Casino Aurora. It is running between loose and solid. After folding everything for the first twenty minutes I get 99. The extremely loose player to my right(EL) strattles. In an attempt to get this guy head-up I make it three bets. I get three callers and of course EL calls. With this many in the pot, I know I can't play it strong without a set.
Flop 10,8,7 rainbow
I bet out, as I have many outs. Player to my left (PTML) calls solid player(SP) to his left raises. Late position caller folds, EL folds. I reraise, PTML calls, and SP caps. Call, Call
At this point I of course put SP on a set of tens, But I have the pot odds to justify a call on the turn (a blank). I checked and called to the river (also a blank). At the river I also called because the pot was laying about 20 to 1.
I realize I way overplayed this hand. I would like to hear how the more experienced players would've played this hand. (Possibly another important point I had only about an hour to play before I had to get back to work. I possibly got over anxious to play a hand.)
All coments are appreciated
Eric
Sounds like a date with Miss Potential, lots of ways to score but you go home to Mrs Palm and her five daughters.
The SPM took a pair of 99's yesturday to the river with overwhelming odds against him winning the hand. Three way action on the turn, solid player Kid Joey is pounding his hand, the poket AA's fold after Kid Joey bets with two kings a five and an x at the turn. The river is another King and the Kid bets, the SPM calls with Kings full of nines, expecting to lose but gambling against the odds and beating Kid Joey's pocket fives, fives full of kings, reduced to Kings full of fives. The SPM got lucky, you didn't.
SPM,...you played tough and Miss Potential left you waiting, better luck next time, you got heart...
Unless you know something about the kid that we don't, you played this hand pretty poorly. But not quite as badly as the kid played the river. I'm waiting for someone to explain the river bet.
Eric-
I don't think raising a straddle pre-flop with 99 is automatic, but could be right depending on the present mood of the game. There is also the type of game where I would fold this hand -*wince*- in a straddled pot.
Re-raising the flop may have been overplaying your hand or it may not have. I think much depends on the playing tendencies of your opponents. Since you don't want to fold your open ended straight draw, it might be worth some extra strength on the flop to ensure you don't wind up looking at two cold on the turn.
The turn seems automatic and the river again reverts to knowing your opponents. There are many players whom you can rest assured have more than a 98 to cap this flop. But I play in Aurora and know this is not always the case. I think you have to make the crying call on the river with any doubt. IMO-
btw- Was this in the main game or feeder?
Kevin
Your betting out on the flop is fine, but your reraise probably cost you a little. You can also easily be against someone who is sharing a nine with you. If that's the case your hand is not as goog as it appears.
"Overplaying" like this isn't going to cost you much and might make you money in the context of other hands. One thing to take into account, however, is that the stradle makes players put you on a wider range of hands than normal and increases the chance that you'll have to show it down or call on the end with a scary board. So with the solid guy raising I'd need another player to jam on the flop.
This particular circumstance plagues me because my post-flop play has proven to be unprofitable. You raise first in with AK, get a cold caller and the BB along for the ride.
Flop comes something like 984 rainbow or J104 rainbow. With both types of flops I bet out. I'm unsure as to what the best play is if raised from the cold caller.
In the past, I've called hoping to spike an A or K or runner runner flush. But heads up I often also call on the river hoping the cold caller is on a busted draw. Lately, I've called the flop bet but folded to a turn bet unimproved.
What's the best play? Is it better to treat AK just like Aces? Reraise the flop and bet the turn hoping draws and medium pocket pairs will fold. I've only tried this a few times but I hope the forum's experience can substitute for my own experiments. In this case, I figure any pair will call a river bet that called a turn bet so I check the river if unimproved to try to induce a bluff river bet.
Also, if the BB calls two cold on the flop how should THAT affect my play.
I'm sure this has been discussed before so comments welcome or a reference to a similar previous post.
Thanks in advance,
Jamie Collins
I think the difference is huge between 984 rainbow and J104 rainbow. JT4 rainbow gives you overcards and a gutshot to the nuts while 984 gives you just overcards with no shot at the nuts (not even a backdoor). I'd be more inclined to play along with the four extra outs.
nt
In a pretty loose and crazy 10-20 game last night I had waited 9 hours for a truly premium hand. I finally get KK under the gun. I raise and I get called in SIX places. Now I know I am not the favorite and expect to see an ace on the flop.
The flop comes Q64 rainbow. I bet and get raised immediately and all call...I call. Is this a good call?
Turn is a 2 still rainbow. I check, the raisers bet and gets raised. All fold to me. I call two bets cold. I think I have made a bad call here. I still have trouble laying down an over pair.
The river is a 9. IT is checked to the raiser on the turn who bets. I call and the flop raiser calls. The better has Q2 suited....two pair. I am amazed that I am called when I raise by this hand. The flop raiser has 66 and a set. I am further amazed that he backed off so much when raised on the turn.
Comments please.
I would have bet the flop like you did, and when I got raised I would have 3 bet.
If the raiser caps then I call to see the turn. I check the turn and if a K doesn't hit then I'm outta there.
If the raiser just called my 3 bet on the flop then I bet out on the turn. If I'm raised on the turn then I muck the hand because surely someone has a set or Queens up (especially with more then one other player still in on the turn).
This is how I would have played the hand, and I believe being more aggressive on the flop is advantageous when having an overpair that beats the board.
I don't think you should 3-bet if it is true that EVERYONE called the 2 bets. If there was already 4 or 5 players who called 2 bets cold, it's more than likely that your KK are behind. I like aggressive play, but a third bet here is only for value (and not good value if you're behind) because no one is going to fold to an extra bet because they are now only calling for one extra bet and they are probably getting the odds to call anyways. If flop-raiser 4-bets, then you are certain to be behind and must decide how far you are willing to go for your 2-outer.
In regards to why 66 didn't reraise on the turn, I'm guessing that he put the turn raiser (Q2) on a straight with a 35. I don't know what a 35 would be doing calling preflop, but Q2s doesn't make much sense either.
Don't be amazed by anything if you raised under the gun and got called in six places. After all, the game was loose and crazy. Also, don't expect to see an Ace flop when 7 people take the flop. Tough to put anyone on a hand at such a table. In a less crazy game, generally speaking, you'd love to have pocket kinds when the board end up Q-9-6-4-2 rainbow. In this kind of game your drawing hands (A-xs, Q-J, 9-8s), provided you can get in and then draw cheap, are the hands you'd like to have.
I have AK in early position and I raise. I get three bet and there are two people who call three bets cold and the blinds both call. I call.
The flop comes K106 rainbow. Checked to me and I bet. I get raised by the three bettor. All call back to me. I call. The turn is another K. Check to me and I bet. Preflop three bettor raises again. All fold to me and I re-raise. River is another K. I bet and the other player calls. I show four kings and slams down AA.
Comments on my play and on his.
I would have played it exactly how you did!
I would've played it exactly the same, too. Dude just got carried away with Aces, never should've raised the turn or called when you reraised.
Nicely done
I think I would have pretty much done exactly what you did. Once the second K comes the guy with AA is foolish to raise again. What does he think you have? He lost too much money on this hand.
Against a little old lady or tight old man, i would have probably would have fold my aces on the turn.
Against an unknown player, i would have just call i guess
As for your play ( i comment opponent play!!) u get A+
Something extremely similar happen to me once in a 20-40 game.
I had AA on the button with limpers. SB calls the raise and BB folds. Both limpers call.
Anyways, the flop comes K 10 4 offsuit. SB checks. SB is a tight solid player. Limpers both check, and I of course bets. SB check-raises. Limpers folds. At this point I'm thinking that SB has a King, so once again I re-raise to 3-bet. SB makes it 4 bets. I know he does not have a set or two pair because if he did he would check-raise the turn. He is not putting me on a draw. I decide to 5-bet it heads up. Now he just calls.
Turn comes another King. Now he fires 40 into the pot. I think...think..think..think...and throw my aces into the muck. He shows his AK and I say "nice hand". Oh well...he was drawing super slim, but he got lucky.
The Fish
I was playing in a big pot recently(many bets) and I would like to ask your advice on playing in situations like this.
Utg folded then the next player raised. I 3 bet with 10's. The game was fairly average till this hand then people just decided to gamble I guess. 2 players behind me called 3 bets cold and the Big blind capped it. So we saw the flop 5 handed for a cap.
Flop came 692 rainbow
BB checked utg bet I raised 1 caller then BB called as did Utg.
Turn was an A
checked to me I check with one player behind me.
What should I do here? Bet and then just fold to a raise? I figured somebody must have an ace with all the pre flop action.
checked behind me River was an off suit 3 check to me I bet and got one caller and won.
I think I made an error by checking the turn what do you think? Thanks
Normally, I would have folded TT when cold calling two bets from middle position. However, I think that you did the right thing with the pre-flop raise. When it got to the turn, you made the right play. The pot odds on your bet would have justified a call from a gut shot straight like a 5-4. A raise, particularly a check-raise, into your bet may have cause your fold. With the ace on the, you didn't have the best of it. To win this particular hand without improvement is quite amazing.
Fraternally yours.
Small Timer:
I've already answered this question on the Small Stakes Forum. In the future, it's best to only post on one forum. That way all responses will be in one place which will make it easier for a "full" discussion to take place.
Thanks, Mason
Playing at the Isle of Capri tonight in the 20-40 1/2 kill HE game where voluntary kill can be taken at any time. I have decided to leave as the night is getting late and I have to work in the morning. I am under the gun and the big blind has taken the kill so it is a 30-60 hand.
I look down and find AA. I raise. The maniac next to me calls. We get one other caller plus the big bind. Four handed we take the flop. The flop comes 10d9h3c. Big blind checks, I bet, maniac calls and big blind calls. We lose one player. The turn is a Qd. I bet and both call. The river is the 7d. Blind checks, I check and maniac bets. Blind folds and I call hoping he is bluffing as he does quite a bit. He shows me 64 of diamonds.
I know in the long run this type of guy loses and he was and does consistently...nonetheless, I couldnt believe that he called 60 cold with 6-4 diamonds and then kept coming when only one diamond hit. I think he had about 2 grand in the game at that point...though he did have some chips. He would run the chips up to 1,500 or 2,000 then lose them all and by another rack. Amazing!!! The other players are congratulating him every time he wins and he just loves it.....hope he is there again on Saturday!
Great post!!!
10-handed 10/20 game. I hold KQo one after UTG. I decide to limp. Would someone fold in this spot? (BTW UTG folded)
Next player raises, all fold to button who cold calls, as does the BB.
Flop: Q 2 5 rainbow
BB checks, i bet, preflop raiser calls, button raises, BB folds,i call, and PF raiser, now re-raises. Now what should i do here? Both opponents are decent players. I strongly believe the preflop raiser could beat my top pair, because it's pretty much advertised what everyone has (i put the button on top pair, most likely AQ)
Given this, should i fold here? My only out is probably 3 kings, and i cant even be sure of that.
Anyway, i call one more bet.
Turn: T
i check, raiser bets, button calls.
I think i have to fold here.
Comments?
P.S. raiser showed AA.
I would have folded preflop, and then under the pressure on the flop, I would have folded again.
Derrick
Remco,
Calling early with KQo is OK only if most players limp pre flop AND saved raising for legit hands AND played straightforwardly post flop. Note that the call is OK under these circumstances since their raises will help you know when to get away from your hand. Dump KQo early in tough, tricky games.
On the flop I like your lead bet into the raiser. I would take one card off as you did but it is close.
On the turn the position of the aggressor reversed. This is a very dangerous sign and now I would be worried that you are beat big and/or drawing slim. Now I would fold.
Regards,
Rick
PS: Don't give away the opponents hand next time. You get more honest answers when you don't.
I'm done playing KQo up front. I've only got 700hrs in but I'm pretty sure I'm losing money with this hand up front. Is it a loser in early position or did I just have bad luck with it? Comments. Thanks.
Lurker,
In most games I dump it too. See my response to palpatine below.
Regards,
Rick
Unsuited high cards do not play well in a multiway pot. In the games I play, nothing attracts a limper like a limper. So I see playing unsuited high cards up front as a raise or fold situation. I have always believed that AJo and KQo were good enough to play up front, so I always raise. I will often get cold-called by KJo and QTo, but people will fold drawing hands like 85s that they would normally limp in with. Please explain to me why you disagree. Thanks.
palpatine
I'm not a big fan of raising in early position with KQo in a typical mid-limit game. In the typical mid-limit game, there is very little blind stealing equity in the raise, and you will make hands that you dominate, such as KJ and QJ, fold (I wonder where you play that people cold call with KJo and Q10o; that is certainly not typical). The way KQo makes $ is when people play those dominated hands and can't get away from them when they flop top pair with a weaker kicker. If you are in a tough/tricky game where people can get away from top pair in those situations, I wouldn't ever want to play KQo up front (and I would probably look for a softer game!). Just some thoughts.
-Anon
palpatine,
In a tight game with tight blinds KQo is the minimum offsuit king I will raise with up front and I will always raise. Most of your equity comes with blind steals and getting heads up with a blind.
In soft games with predictable and somewhat loose opponents I think it is close between raising and calling. Jim Brier had some good arguements for the call in this type of game about a week ago in a subpost (I'm pressed for time so I can't find it but I think it is on this forum). I lean towards calling also. But if you fold you are only giving up a little, if anything.
In loose, aggressive, tricky games I think it is a fold up front. It doesn't flop big enough often enough to withstand the likely pressure you will get pre and post flop and doesn't make many straights since it is almost blocked on one end.
Regards,
Rick
If I could get people to cold-call with trash hands like KJ/KT/QT then I would raise UTG with KQo everytime. The problem is that when I raise UTG with KQo the only hands that call are better hands or equal hands. I always limp with KQo UTG unless the game is over-aggressive, then I dump it. I call with it from middle position if somebody has limped, if not I will open-raise with it. I always raise with it in late position. I will not call any legit raises with it. To easily dominated for that.
Very good session last night marred by two hands where I missed at least a bet or two.
Game is loose but I am still getting a feel for the players.
Hand #1: JJ UTG, I raise, next player (NP) cold calls and both blinds call.
Flop comes: 6-6-10 rainbow. Check to me, I bet, NP raises, SB calls, BB folds. I just call. Turn is a 2. SB checks, I check, NP bets, call, call. River is a rag, SB checks, I bet, NP calls, SB flashes 8-8 and folds. I think I should have committed to my read (A-10) on the NP and played this hand faster from the flop on or gone for the turn check-raise once the SB just called, indicating no 6. I don't like my play here.
Hand #2: AA on the button. UTG raises, 1 cold caller (CC), I 3-bet, blinds fold, UTG caps, CC and I call.
flop is J-J-Q. UTG fires out, CC calls, I call. I am 60% sure UTG has KK. Turn is a blank. UTG fires out, CC folds, I call. River is a blank. UTG fires again. I just call again. UTG shows KK and I win a decent pot. I hate the way I played this hand. I did not know UTG well but he seemed rational. Comments welcomed.
Hand # 1: I would have done the same as you in hand one. I can't put the guy on a 6 because he called my raise from on early position, but I would still worry.
Hand # 2. What can UTG have? I would only cap it with AA or KK... maybe QQ if I think your standards are a little less than perfect for 3 betting... You have 2 of the aces, so 6 out of 7 times he will have the K's. On the turn I would have popped him once CC drops... On the flop I would have been more concerned with him then the capper. If he doesn't reraise me, I would bet on the river as well. If he re-raises me I would definitely just check call fearing Q's.
Just my opinions,
Derrick
Hand #1: I'm not so sure you're not being to hard on yourself here. You're correct about NP, but small blind has got to concern you. He did, after all, cold call 2 bets on the flop. He might well have still been trapping with a 6 on the turn. I don't see how you could make it 3 bets on the flop once small bind cold called 2 bets. The check-raise on the turn is more defensible, but not knowing the small blind might dictate caution.
Hand #2: Here I'm more in agreement with you. Pop him on the turn. He may put you on A-Qs. Or he may not put you on anything. Players who cap pre-flop and keep firing with a hand they've fallen in love with sometimes call you down even if your logic tells you they should think you have them beat.
10-20 I'm in the sb with KK.
All fold to cutoff who raises, cutoff is solid player. Button cold calls, button is a terrible calling station. I simply call and BB calls. Should I have three bet? I was going to but I thought I would see the flop and if no A shows up I would check raise being pretty sure the raiser would bet.
Flop is 4,5,8 rainbow. Checked to raiser who bets, button calls, I raise, BB cold calls, raiser and button call.
Turn is a 2. I bet, BB calls, raiser calls, button raises. I call, BB calls and raiser folds. I thought of folding here. The button is a bad player who could have anything but he will rarely raise unless he has a good hand. I figure he has 6-7 or at least two pair. What do you think of my call?
Turn is an A. Checked to button who bets. I fold. It didn't appear the A scared him so I thought my one pair was in trouble. What do you think of my fold?
I really don't like the call before the flop. If all goes as planned on the flop, you'll only be forcing one of your opponents (the BB) to call a double bet. I'd rather try and get rid of him before the flop. Not to mention getting the extra money in the pot and you having the best hand and blah blah blah.
And if I were to call the turn, I would call the river as well (note: I would have folded on the turn. When a calling station raises, I'll respect it). I usually don't lay down hands on the river...unless it's busted draw or I'm being forced to overcall and/or a really scary card hits.
Button has A3s.
Mark
Limit hold'em is a show me game. You only have to be wrong 5% of the time to make folding a mistake. If you start folding this hand you are going to get run over. These are all the excuses you hear to make the call on the river. I think there all BS. Poker is a people game . You made a read and acted accordingly. I would have played it the same. I only call the river if the board pairs or a K comes. You saved a BB.
I would have 3 bet pre-flop. I think you can afford to make your play with aces occasionally but not kings.
Winger I nodding my head and thinking to myself, wow this guy knows what he's talking about, and I agreed with your post up until the part where you said "I think there all BS. "
Its fundamental pot odds. And how useful are reads inlimit anyway? (John Feeney has an essay about this in his most recent book). You WOULD have to be 95% sure he beats a pair of kings, OR 95% sure of your tell. Now i am not alone in the opinion that short of seeing someone's cards, you can NEVER be over 90% certain of ANY tell. I would have folded turn. You don't make big laydowns at river, the turn is the spot for them. responses welcome.
When a bad player who exhibits calling station tendencies is raising you on the turn and betting into you on the river even after an A comes and there's four to a straight.....
you KK is no good. It's that simple.
If you call in this situation because of "pot odds" then you are insane. The calling station has you beat.
natedogg
A "tell" is some kind of behaviour that gives away a person's strength. A "read" is quite different and in fact you should always utilize your read on the opponent. A tell may not be that accurate but a read can easily be 100% accurate.
Every time you play a hand you absolutely MUST utilize your reads on the players. Failure to do so is suicide at a poker table.
For instance, if you are playing at a table with 2 loose passive calling stations and 2 crazy preflop raisers and 2 bluffing maniacs and 2 weak tight rocks, you would play the river differently against each one.
If you were at the river heads up in the EXACT same situation with your KK and a board of 4582A, you would call or fold almost entirely based on who was doing the betting. The pot odds would hardly come into it.
natedogg
I agree with Natedogg. A read is different from a tell. And although I very much agree that the turn is the place to make laydowns and not the river, if he does have two pair you have lots of odds to make a call on the turn. I don't think a laydown on the turn is terrible, but I think a call is fine too.
natedogg,
if you think he has a straight WHY CALL THE TURN? he at least has two pair or a set according to your 'read'. So you are not getting odds to draw to one of 2 kings. There is a chance that if the board pairs you win with KK but how are you to know which card is friendly. I would have folded turn as i said before. THat is the correct play. HOWEVER once you call turn, YES you call river. Is it IMPOSSIBLE for this guy to vary his play? to bluff? Jesus i wish i could find players that were so readable. What about QQ or JJ and he just bet river cuz checked to him so he figured no one had ace? what about top pair on the turn? What about a pure bluff? Tilt? semi bluff straight draw on turn (i admit a little unlikely for a calling station.) However, I am quite sure that you would find that 1 in 15 (16 BB in the pot) times in this situation you would find one of these hands or something else i missed. No one is a completely readable opponent, at least not once you get above 3/6. FOLD THE TURN
I agree you should fold the turn. Absolutely. If he's not a total passive calling station and will often raise with 2 pair, you might call the turn and pay off only if the board pairs. Say like if he's 50/50 on two pair or better. Otherwise dump it. You have to know the player.
A passive calling station will almost never bluff-raise the turn and bet the river. A calling station will be able to beat KK in this situation 99 if not 100 percent of the time. Especially with that A out there. Since a calling station will call all the way with an A, he's often very scared to see on on the river, unless they can beat it.
No one is completely readable but there are certainly those who get very very close. :)
I personally fold on the turn here 95% the time, if not more.
Before you all jump out of your seat and start screaming about how I'd get run over at 40-80, I'm talking about when I've got KK against a calling station who just raised into a field of three players on the turn who are already in for a bet. This is not a situation where a timid player will bluff.
He can beat KK. Period.
natedogg
The 3 bet before the flop is automatic. In addition to (hopefully) getting rid of the BB, It will help you define the raisers hand. He can be on a wide variety of hands here and his response to your reraise may give you a clue as to what he is on. I would have lead at this flop. If the BB is stil in you have him in the middle and if the raiser 2 bets, it makes it harder for the button to call. As the play went, I would not put the weak player on either 2 pair or a straight. I don't think even a very weak player at 10-20 would cold call 2 bets with either of those hands. It has to be a set and you should lay it down. This is not the case if it is a strong or tricky player. I agree with the other posters, if you call the raise on the turn, you should call the river.
The main reason I reraise before the flop with a big pair in the blinds is so that the opponent's know what I have. It sure makes those hands easier to play out of position. And I'm less likely to get bluffed, so if I meet strong resistence on the turn and/or river and choose to fold, it's less likely to be wrong because I showed big strength preflop and presumably after.
Tommy
Thanks for all the responses everyone.
It turns out the button had 22, so the turn gave him a set. So he cold-called two bets and the flop with his par of deuces. Oh well he's great for the game. So I was drawing to a two-outer. Thanks for all the opinions.
is it good poker to limp in 70% of the time wired hands or not then be more aggresive after the flop when you acually have a feel for the hand. could this style win you money in the long run or cost you money.
I sometimes find it hard to post a hand as well as respond to other's, due to the difficulty in either describing or understanding the situational element of a hand. My question for this hand is, would this have even mattered? The player sitting next to me thought I played it bad. I'd appreciate comments.
After 4 limpers, I checked the bb with two red tens.
The flop came 862 all diamonds. I bet, and got raised. It was folded back to me and I re-raised and he capped it at 4 bets. I thought he'd have just called the 3 bets with a nut or big flush looking to pop the turn. While he could have flopped a flush, I decided to lean towards Ad8,Ad6,Ad2, a set of eights,sixes or twos, 99 and possibly JJ. I called. Any comments about the flop?
The turn was a Kc. I checked and he bet. His betting through the king concerned me some, but I thought he'd bet any of the aforementioned hands as well. Some of those hands I beat and some (if he held a set), I have outs against. I called. Is this poor?
The river was the Ts. Now what? Unless he has specifically two diamonds in his hand my set figures to be good. Even if he has a flush, he might be hard pressed to raise me without the nuts, since I may have played the nuts a little strangely here. On the other hand, he's a loose enough player to call with any pair, he certainly calls with a set especially since I might be bluffing with a busted high diamond. And he might even try a bluff raise with the Ad. I bet and he called. My set of tens was good. (he didn't show)
Anyway, the player sitting next to me thought my river bet was completely foolish. Honestly, I can't decide if it was or not. I thought I had enough reasons to make it. I'd appreciate comments. Thanks.
Kevin
It's hard to say without a description of the player. Against a normal opponent, a re-raise on the flop is a big red flag. If he's pushing a flush draw your ahead but very vulnerable. If he has a hand you better hope it's 9-9 because you can't beat much else. Would he play A-xo and push it this hard?
The king I hate. Now I lose to even more hands. Against a normal opponent, I dump it here.
The river is a difficult decision. I hate checking a set but i don't think you lose much by checking here. If he's on a busted flush draw you actually make a bet because he'll almost certainly bet but won't call. If he raises you what are you going to do?
Thanks for responding Winger.
"Against a normal opponent, a re-raise on the flop is a big red flag."
If you mean his cap at 4 bets, I agree. But how big of a red flag? Would he play the nut flush this way? And if he doesn't have the nut flush, how much value does my Td have? I realize it's not much, but isn't it worth something?
"Would he play A-xo and push it this hard? "
Actually, I thought the answer to this was yes. Provided that his ace was a diamond with any 8,6, or 2. He'd also play a set this way which means I have 7 diamond outs along with two tens.
"The king I hate. Now I lose to even more hands. Against a normal opponent, I dump it here. "
I also didn't like the fact he bet this turn card, but I'm just curious. How would you figure a king has helped an opponent who has 4 bet an all diamond flop of 862? I'm referring to your comment "Now I lose to even more hands."
I agree he might bet some hands he wouldn't call with. But I thought there were more hands he'd call with than bet. If he raised, I'd have called, since he would raise a busted ace high flush figuring the ten couldn't have helped me. This is another reason I bet the river.
I don't know your opponent, but if he caps it with, let's say, Ad-6, would he have capped it with Kd-8 or Kd-Q? On the flop if he doesn't have the flush, your either ahead or have the best flush draw. That is no longer the case and you may be playing a 2 outer.
.
I'd make that be every time, since most players will slow play a flush on the flop.
I thought the same way but after discussing it some and thinking it over, I'm not sure. He'd have to bet a bust out of desparation. He's also bet any set. I'm beat by a flush (some will play a small flush fast). So the only hands I lose a bet to are his one pair hands which he might check. And even then, it's only a fraction a bet loss in theory. Would you have any further comments on this?
Kevin
I am almost positive that the player held AK with the A being a diamond. Your call on the turn stinks but you got lucky.
Which is why I made the preface of having to fully explains situational biases in posts.
It is not likely this player holds a king. With AK he raises pre-flop. With a suited Kd, he soft plays the flop and looks to pop the turn. With any other Kd, he does not cap the flop. I believe this makes my call on the turn at least a little less stinky, since I might still have the best hand, and/or my diamond draw might be good. Of course, I could've been drawing dead, but the pot was pretty big by that time.
I think your river analysis was good, since the only hand he can really raise you with is AdXd, and he probably doesn't have this because he would have slowplayed the flop-- especially if there were players behind him left to act. So, he can only call with hands that have you beat, but he will check behind you with many hands that a) you have beat, and b) he would pay off with.
I don't know about the turn call-- it's hard to say-- although I think I probably would have made it. After all, nobody has ever gotten rich mucking overpairs in heads up pots.
Hero is already up a rack in her first hour based on good cards and fairly solid play for someone who has only been playing holdem a year.
For this hand Hero holds 6c-4c in the big blind in a loose, passive 15/30 game. Five players limp and the button raised. The button is somewhat loose, but tricky and aggressive compared to the rest of the field. The small blind folds, Hero calls (an easy call IMO), and the five limpers call. There are almost 15 small bets in the pot.
The flop comes 8d-4h-2c. Hero checks (would anybody bet here?), all of the limpers check and button bets. What is Hero's best play here and why? Hero's play and rest of the hand follow in a sub-post underneath.
Regards,
Rick
From the above post Hero calls the button flop bet in the big blind with 6c-4c as do all the limpers. There are now almost 11 big bets in the pot.
The turn comes a 2s. The board now reads 8d-4h-2c-2s. Hero bets! All the limpers folded and the button just calls. There are now 13 big bets in the pot.
The river comes a 9h. Hero checks to the pre flop raiser on the button. He bets, Hero calls and the pre flop raiser mucks. Hero rakes in a $450 pot.
My analysis:
Once again, I think Hero had an easy call preflop, although some (perhaps 3-Bet Brett?) may disagree. On the flop I like the initial check with second pair and so many opponents. However, when the aggressive button is the first one to bet, I think the checkraise is a far better play than folding (not Hero's style) or calling. The button is likely to be betting overcards and the checkraise here could get it head up or close to head up with the button. Certainly the limpers have to fear two pair from our Hero in the blind.
The turn bet was inspired and gutsy and made up for the flop call. There is no question that the limpers have to fear a deuce held by Hero in the blind. Of course, Hero gets all limpers to fold due to her spell over the table, and the button just calls. Hero is protected from a raise by the button, since even he would fear a deuce with an overpair and would go into check and call down mode.
On the river I like the check and call. The button won't throw away an overpair to a bet but will often bet overcards in a desperate attempt to get Hero to lay down a pair (fat chance!).
Anyway, I would appreciate comments, especially on the flop and turn play. Soon to follow is another post looking at a couple pre flop plays by Hero where I'm not so happy.
Regards,
Rick
I really like the way hero played it and seriously question your suggested check/raise on the flop Rick. First off, the button would have to be slightly goofy to bet into 6 players with mere overcards. Of course he wouldn't be the first one. But the thing that really bothers me about a check raise, is that there are 5 other players, any one or even two, who might be looking to do the same. I think the deuce was a great turn card for her and she wisely took advantage of it by betting. IMO-
I shouldn't have said "seriously" question your suggested check/raise play. I suspect many will prefer this play to a call, since it appears to be aggressive poker. I just wonder if it's the best play.
Kevin
I think he's saying that either raising or folding is better than calling. If you are planning on just calling the probable button bet, you may as well bet it yourself and put the guys in between you and the button to the test.
Here's the thing that I might not look at correctly in these situations. Given the amount of money in the pot, even if she knew the button had a bigger pair she's correct to take one off. But there's no legitimate reason to think a pair of 4's with a 6 kicker, is any good against 6 opponents. Betting seems poor because it can get raised and re-raised back to her. I don't like check/raising due to the reasons I already stated. It's likely that one or more players in between her and the pre-flop raiser already has that idea in mind. Because of this, I think the fact that the raiser is to her immediate right complicates things more than a lot of people realize. Even though calling seems passive it might be the best play. If it doesn't get raised, fine. She can take a card off cheaply. If it gets raised once back to her, she can see the turn for the same price as if she raised. If it gets raised and re-raised back to her, she can fold at less expense.
Kevin
skp,
I didn't advocate a fold but it wasn't made crystal clear in my post. A also didn't advocate betting out. Now that the responses are coming in I wonder if with this lineup calling the flop isn't too bad.
BTW, given that she called, what do you think of the bet when the deuce paired? Isn't it sort of an "Ostensible Out" for a blind in a multi-way pot, since the blind is the player most likely to be playing a deuce. I do think she must fold if raised by a limper or even by the button, although the button should be afraid to raise with just an overpair.
Regards,
Rick
The turn bet is a bold and creative one which has a chance of working for the reasons you state. I think betting out is way better than checkcalling the button (as you are then subjectively trying to hit a 2 outer). Plus, if the button checks, you are esentially screwed as chances are that the river card is going to hit someone.
I too agree that calling on the flop ought not to be dismissed too lightly (as some of my posts above may seem to indicate). You have the pot odds to chase here. But if the button is apt to bet overcards on the cheap round, then I think that raising is the better play given the size of the pot. Put in an extra bet on the flop and increase your chances of winning the pot and increase your chances of getting an accurate read on the other players in the hand.
I think this has to be the approach-- lead bet, then wince and peel one if the button raises. You've got a probable six outs (a five outer plus the running clubs), the pot's big, and you'd like to make the gutshot draws think twice before peeling, which just might happen if you fly bet and the pre-flop raiser is looming behind them.
If you had A5s and the flop came 952, or even Q62, then you can make a stronger argument for just calling on the flop since a) there's a smaller chance of one of your outs also hitting someone else, and b) if one of your outs does hit your opponent that's probably real good for you. So, you wouldn't mind company. but with the relatively co-ordinated flop Rick's friend got I would want to get rid of as many players as possible that are sharing outs with me, since and card that helps me is likely to help an opponent even more.
This may sound like more of an argument for check-raising, but I wouldn't want to go for a check raise here if the pre-flop raiser was savvy enough to just check with overcards. By betting you're sure to make the people in between squirm a bit, and if the button just calls you know he's got overcards and can proceed appropriately.
She is playing perfect Rick! - Maybe you should consider taking a few lessons from her :-)
I agree with Bob. Kind of makes you wonder who is the student and who is the teacher. She couldn't have played this hand better. For reasons not to C-R the flop, see Brier's post. I love the turn bet. This is a play made by a real player, one who gets inside her opponents.
Brett,
There is no question she has tremendous drive, table awareness and focus. She has the talent and desire to become a top player a few years from now in the bigger games. But she does need to tighten up pre-flop quite a bit while retaining her tough play and good hand reading post flop. My best friend (a long time mid limit pro) and I believe that of all the hands she now plays, 25% or so should be thrown away before the flop.
So the more important thread for her was the one concerning her wishing to play my QJo with five players and the blinds yet to act along with her own limp UTG with Ks7s in a six handed game. My hand would have won (had I played) and her hand did win and it is easy to draw the wrong conclusions.
We posted the hand with the 6c-4c because it was interesting and the turn bet certainly seemed inspired. Although I thought the checkraise was the better option on the flop, now I'm not so sure. In any event, I wanted to post one good thing she did before getting everyone to critique her loose pre flop calls.
Regards,
Rick
x
Ahh, it's so nice to see you two madly in love. I'm a sucker for romance.
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
Ljubljana, Slovenia
Angelina,
Say Hi to Izmet for us. Tell him "E" will give him a big hug when he comes to visit.
Regards,
Rick and E
Hi Hero,
I like how you played this hand!
Mike
Ok, without looking at the results (a disclaimer I have learned from you :)), I will take my shot at it. With about 16 SBs in the pot, hero should not fold to the button's bet. Given that the button is tricky and aggressive, hero has a decent chance of being ahead of the button, and if the hero is trailing to the button, hero probably has 5 outs to overtake the button. 5 outs is more than enough to continue, so folding is out of the question IMO. My play would to be raise! If hero just calls, a calling frenzy will likely ensue, and hero's chances of winning unimproved are very slim. But if hero raises, there is a very reasonable chance of getting it heads up, and this dramatically increases the chance of winning unimproved. Given the bloated pot size, I feel it is imperative that hero maximize her chance of winning, and a check-raise is the best way to do this. Maybe I'm crazy and overaggressive, but I think that a check-raise would be a strong play here.
-Anon
I think the hand is worth a call. Some might argue for a raise but the pre-flop raiser being on her immediate right presents a problem, since many players will check to the raiser.
Rick,
Without reading the other replies yet, here's my take.
On the flop Hero has second pair/no kicker and a backdoor flush draw. It is certainly worth a call given such a large pot. If Hero actually has the best hand versus the button he definitely wants to get it headsup. So I believe the best play is to checkraise. It is superior to either folding or calling. Plus he may get something like As 4s to fold.
On the turn, assuming he got it headsup with the button, Hero should probably bet no matter what hits since the pot is so big and Hero does not want to give a free card in the event that the button has only overcards.
The rest depends on how the button plays. But since you said he was tricky and aggressive Hero should stick around to the end since the pot odds justify it.
sucker
Pre-flop, I agree with the call of the raise out of her big blind having Six-Four suited with all these players. Being half-way in is a large incentive to call a raise and take a flop with this kind of holding.
On the flop, I think leading into a crowd of 5 players with middle pair/no kicker and a backdoor flush is a good way to give up some of your hard earned money. You want to take a card off cheaply not bet and get raised. I know that everyone on this forum is totally enamored with the check-raise move on the cheap street when a late position bettor leads. But I don't like it. I am drawing and I am not interested in trying to thin the field for the best hand with me being out of position having such an anemic holding. How do I know everyone will cooperate by folding? Do I necessarily want everyone to fold when I am drawing? If I get re-raised, I will be calling that as well so now it has cost me 3 bets to take off a card instead of one.
In reading your sub-post, I gather she check-called the flop bet which was right. Her lead on the expensive street is a bold, creative play that I don't agree with when you still have a large crowd like this hanging around taking off cards. If one of her numerous opponents happens to have a Deuce she will get raised and even if they don't it is tough to move a lot of players off the hand by betting who would not have folded anyway if the button follows up with a bet. I guess it is an example of doing everything you can to win a large pot by simply betting your way to victory. At the river, given that the button called her turn bet he will not be folding any hand that can beat hers on the river with a pot this large so I like the check-call as well.
Now suppose she checks the turn and it is checked to the button who bets. She will call and everyone else will probably fold since none of the other players would call her turn bet they probably won't be calling when the button bets and she calls. Again, she would check-call the river and still win the pot.
Re: the turn
What happens if the button also checks. The chances of hero winning the pot are now greatly reduced.
I am not saying that the bet on the turn was correct. It was creative as you put it. But again, if hero is planning to call a button bet, I think that's way worse than betting herself.
Jim,
It's late and we've had a cocktail or two but here goes anyway. I was upset about Hero's pre-flop call with K7s and her thinking I should call with QJo up front. Anyway, I wanted the forum's input. If I could get her to eliminate about one third or her starting hands she should have a better chance to sustain her good results so far.
In the meantime she described the hand with 6c-4c in the big blind. I agree I jumped on the checkraise bandwagon but I'm starting to think there is merit to calling per your analysis.
I like her turn bet as long as she can fold if raised by a limper. She is sitting behind as I type and already said she would reraise a limper, which I think (and I would think you think) is insane. She is like a fencer who only charges forward, and doesn't know anything about that back and forth tactic. (Note: This whole fencing analogy comes from my mid-limit pro friend - I don't know more than the average ameba about fencing.).
Regards,
Rick
If you're going to call the button bet anyway, I think you are better off betting yourself since the button may very well check overcards due to your checkraise on the flop. It is important to thin the field with a big pot like this. I also agree with the checkraise on the flop because of the chance you may have the best hand, and the elimination of players is more important than the few extra bets you may get by viewing your hand as a drawing hand.
BTW, it is uncanny how often your responses are exactly what I would have said. I've noticed though that you seem to have less of an inclination to save big pots.
On the flop, hero is not drawing. Hero has middle pair and needs to do as much as she can to give that pair a chance to hold up. By check-raising she does that. Why let someone with, say, Ah-9h come in cheap and catch on the turn? I say don't think about saving bets in this situation, think about winning the pot.
"How do I know everyone will cooperate by folding?" You don't, but you know there's much more likelihood of players folding for two bets than for one.
If I'm reading your post correctly, you recommend call pre-flop, call on the flop, call on the turn, and call on the river. To me this minimizes your chances of winning with a hand that 1) may well be the best hand on the flop; and 2) has backdoor potential. You've either got to check-raise on the flop or turn or bet out on the turn, IMHO.
I agree with your analysis above, although I have another point of view that may support the check-call on the flop, followed by betting out on the turn, so here goes.
If I think that my hand has a reasonable chance to win, although it may not be the best at the flop (which is probably the case with so many people in on the flop)I would check and call the flop with the intention of betting out if anything scary came on the turn that would not help my opponents (read: no A, K, or 8, unless they gave me a four-flush). I'm representing a hand that just came in but is vunerable here. This would be especially effective with another 2 (IMO the perfect card for this), where people could figure me for one, any straight/flush card, or any of my real outs. This gives me many chances to make this play, and it just may work. If I get raised by a tricky player, I need to see if I have any outs to continue because the pot is gigantic. If I get raised by a sucker, I probably fold immediately. It's all situational, I guess, and hard to describe without being at the table to see my opponents.
I'm not sure how effective the above play would be, but it sounds like it would have been OK in this game, although in the games I play in it would be a recipe for disaster, since San Jose's 15-30 games are inhabited by a surprising # of calling stations - one (and sometimes 2) bet is never enough to get somebody to lay down an overcard or 2 - somebody will catch by the river and beat your pair of 4's. However, in games where people are capable of folding, I think that this could be a highly effective play, but I'd like some other thoughts on it. With that said, I still prefer check-raising for the reasons others have mentioned as well as the fact it's good to be known as a chronic check-raiser for a myriad of reasons.
Against a loose, tricky opponent I'll usually lay this hand down on the flop. Although there is a reaonable chance you have the best right now and a check-raise may get it heads-up, these types of opponents make it very expensive to get to the river.
Hi Rick,
I think there is enough value to Hero's hand to warrant a call on the flop...especially given that the remaining opponents lean toward loose-passive play. I suspect Hero may have attempted an isolation check-raise, but I think she is facing too many loose opponents for this to be the best play.
Good night!
x
Been offline for the weekend, Rick, and just getting caught up with the Medium Limit hands.
Calling the raise from the button out of the BB is as you say, a no-brainer. Same page so far. I have had several of these types of situation recently myself. However, depending somewhat on the nature of the raiser's play, I have been playing the hand a little differently.
In this type of situation, Hero has a baby pair without an overcard to the board. Obviously, her hand is not nearly strong enough to bet out into the big field for value, so I agree with checking it around to the button. She has probably hit this flop about as hard as any of the other limpers, wouldn't you agree? Anyone that has limped in with a small pair is ahead of her, and although a checkraise may get that person to lay down something like 77 or 99, that person may come out swinging on the baby flop and if the button raises, Hero knows she is way behind and can safely dump.
With this type of holding, with two small cards in her hand, I think I prefer a checkraise to the check/call, because she wants to drive out someone who has limped in with something like KQ. If Hero's hand was something like Kc-4c, and she hits the flop with middle pair and an overcard, I don't mind as much the check/call mode. Now if the overcard kicker hits on the turn, Hero can bet out with her 2-pair and trap any limpers inbetween herself and the button, who may still raise with AA or AK if he hits the overcard, too. There is certainly the risk of letting in the QJ type of hand for a SB, and the Q or J hits the turn, but I think this money comes back with interest when she hits the set, or 2-pair on the turn and gets players to then call thin or dead.
If Hero checkraises with her 1-pair, and is successful in driving everyone else out, I think a turn bet is mandatory. The Button may still just be on overcards, and would likely still find it hard to raise with just a big pair. If the button calls again on the turn, I think Hero has to improve on the river to win. If she doesn't improve, she would likely have to check, hoping that the button may just check an overpair, or perhaps to induce a bluff. Heads-up, she would probably have to call the button down, though.
To summarize, I vote for checkraise with 2 small cards, and check/call with a big overcard kicker. Thoughts, Rick?
Dunc,
Interesting thoughts regarding making the more aggressive play (the checkraise) with the weaker hand and visa versa. But threads get buried so maybe you can work this into a new post.
I still like the checkraise but Jim Brier and others make a good arguement for the call. Maybe it is close but I need to let this thread go and get some sleep. I've promised myself to be in bed earlier these days plus I have a good book to read.
Regards,
Rick
The check raise on the flop is a must. This is a classic play right out of S & M's work. You have a hand that may now be best but likely won't be at the river. Like Dunc said, you want to force out hands like KJ - but also all the J7, T9 and anything else with overcards which is about 3/4 of the deck to your hand. You're banking on the raiser having overcards rather than big pair to win so go for it.
This raise is strong because all the players between you and the raiser/bettor are going to think hard about calling, fearing a re-raise.
I know El Supremo/Oz/David Sklansky hates pre flop questions but I need help drilling fundamentals into my Hero's head. My problem is that Hero's hourly rate is better than mine for the last 800 hours or so and I'm losing credibility fast.
Hand One:
In a loose passive nine handed game with three walkers Hero gets a Kc-7c UTG. Hero calls and needless to say gets all to call behind, flops a flush draw, makes a flush on the turn, and wins a nice pot. Details of another Hero win unnecessary.
I caught the hand as I went to grab some chicken strips off Hero's plate (it's nice being able to eat and play in Los Angeles). I would never call with king-seven suited with three players and the blinds yet to act no matter what. I don't think it's close. Was Hero's call as bad as I think or is it a fraction of a bet mistake, if that? Also, would anyone raise here? I might against tight blinds and meek opponents to my left, but it would be the worse hand I would raise with.
Hand Two:
After Hero picks up a routine two racks in a couple of hours, Hero decides to pick up her chips, sit behind me, relax and watch me play as I struggle to win a stack or two (I ended up stuck a bit).
In a typical nine-handed Los Angeles 15/30 game with one walker, I routinely fold QJ offsuit UTG. Hero raises an eyebrow, then pokes a hole in my ribcage as the flop comes Q-Q-8, the turn comes a jack, and the river comes a whatever. There was a lot of action and somebody else won a nice pot.
Later I try to explain to Hero that my fold is correct and QJ offsuit is a big money loser up front no matter how soft the game (and this game was only moderately soft). Is this hand as bad as I think it is or would calling just be a fraction of a bet mistake?
Please vote. I believe in the long run things even out but Hero is starting to think that she is the exception and can play this kind of crap. But maybe I'm the one who is full of crap ;-).
Regards,
Rick
There are many better people to ask than me, but since you made it a vote I'll cast mine.
Hand #1- With the exception of suited aces, I like to also have nut straight making possibilities when playing suited cards out of position, regardless of the game. Maybe from a very late position, but never UTG.
Hand #2- I suppose somewhere a game exists where QJo is playable from UTG, but I have never played in one. I don't consider QJo playable from UTG period and it's not even close. The game would have to be perfect. Maybe if you walked in on Aunt Mildred's sewing club and talked them into a game of hold'em?
It's a no brainer - fold both hands if sober.
If you've had two or more beers it's fun to call or raise.
Agreed, but what about guys like me that only have one beer?
Well then, you need to go to "other topics" and read up on wine. 1 beer + 1 glass of wine = 1 raise with K7s up front!
Calling with the K7s is slightly wrong. Calling UTG with QJo is moderately wrong.
I might play the JT as early as the cut off but UTG it is not good eneough.
As for the K7s - well I probably don't play it at all unless all fold to me and I am looking to steal a blind.
There is a player that I'm playing some against in the $30-$60 at Bellagio. Most of the regulars think that he plays terrible, yet he has been winning for almost a year. While I believe that there are some major flaws in his game, my opinion of his play is much better than what most think. The reason is that even though he makes many errors, they are usually like the ones above. He seems to constantly make the errors that don't cost that much yet avoids the real expensive ones.
While I generally don't want to play a hand like QJo until I'm with in two positions of the button, the fact is that if I'm first in with it earlier it is not very expensive. There is no question in my mind that it is an error, and the game would have to be virutally perect to make it playable up front, it just won't cost you that much. And it you are first in with it with a raise from let's say a middle position, it is again not a major error. Compare that to calling a middle position raiser with the same hand. Now you have made a fairly costly mistake.
the K7s was played when the table was 6-handed. should K-high have flopped, the 7's kicker value should be upgraded to about that of a 9 in an 8-handed game. not great but not horrendous, especially with no pre-flop raise.
Mark,
How do you know there will be no pre-flop raise, especially when the game gets a little short-handed? Most people willing to play short are going to get aggressive. Remember, limping UTG in a six-handed game still means three players plus the blinds are yet to act.
Regards,
Rick
I play every hand from every position. Well I play almost every hand from every position. When you decide to play poker you PLAY, you do not formulize. When you are new to poker or are running bad it is good practice to follow a set guidline for starting hands vs position. But when you are experienced you should put that knowledge on the back burner and play.
vince
lol
Hero is mad.
Only someone who is running exceptionally hot would dream of playing this way. It tends to warp your thinking.
natedogg
Limping in under the gun with King-shit suited is bad poker. I wouldn't even do it with King-Ten suited. You want lots of company and a cheap entry fee. In a middle limit game you will frequently get raised and you will be playing heads-up out of position between yourself and the best hand.
Queen-Jack offsuit is a god-awful hand to be coming in with under the gun. Queen-Jack offsuit is a limping hand from middle or late position and is a good hand for stealing the blinds by opening with a raise from late position. We just had a thread a short time ago where a guy limped in from the cutoff behind another limper with Queen-Ten offsuit and David Sklansky thought this play was too loose except from the button in a typical $20-$40 game. How much better do you think Queen-Jack offsuit is?
These are the types of plays tourists make-not working pros. I believe that playing this way constitutes a leak in one's game and will add up to significant money over the course of a years worth of play.
Jim,
I find it hard to believe that the games you play in are so tough. I play mostly 10-20 in AC, and the games are generally moderately loose. If you are in a game where you expect 5 players to see the flop in a likely unraised pot, K10s seems to be an easy call UTG. I agree that if you will likely end up heads up against a raiser, you should ditch, but I've only rarely played in a game where that was likely.
Games where 5 players take a flop with no pre-flop raising are sometimes found in low limit games with a small blind structure like $1-$4-$8-$8 with $1 and $2 blinds. In would be rare to find a game like that at the $10-$20 or higher level here in Vegas. I guess it is possible but unlikely.
I routinely play in 9/18, 10/20, 15/30 games like this in San Jose. K-10s looks (and is) pretty damned good here. K-7s isn't too bad either. I'd dump the QJ though, because it's too easy to get into a call-down situation against these suckers who bluff just about every other hand. It just gets too expensive. I agree with you that the games at the Shoe or Mirage are a bunch tighter and your assesment is correct. I guess something has to offset the high hourly charge of my normal games, and that is players who play like 15/30 is 3/6.
"After Hero picks up a routine two racks in a couple of hours..."
I've seen Hero's rack and that may hold the secret to the high hourly rate. The play's you post suggest Hero is just running good not playing well.
Doug,
She plays too many hands, but, in her defense, she does do a lot well at the table. Regarding her look, she has read Abdul's censored/deleted essay on how aggressive female players can dominate a table full of men (the one with the "P" word) and tries to take full advantage of her charms. What's wrong with that? ;-).
Regards,
Rick
x
Hand one is a clear fold pre-flop.
Hand two is also a fold but not as clear. In a loose passive game I'll sometimes make this call. In LA I think it's suicide.
My god, you've been giving lessons to this chick for how long now, and she still looks at the game like a $1-$2 player? She MUST be a 'D' cup, or at least a large C, right?
the difference is when you play those hands you will get little action when you hit and must make all your profit from them by bluffing. She is going to get more calls so her play of those hands have alot more equity than someone else who looks like one of spm's rocks. still tell her i said to fold those hands as she will get good action from her better hands anyway. then you two need to ask john f. for a lecture on eating chicken strips. if she continues to beat your rate i would like to see her post on this forum and you move down a notch:-) hahahaha.
Step away from your friend's advice and no one has to get hurt.
Of course, most of the answers here support your point of view. Next time, try George Lind III's trick of turning it around and see what answers you get. I have a feeling that Hero plays very well after the flop, and that makes up a little for some questionable preflop plays.
She also may have a very good feeling for when there will not be a lot of preflop raising, or maybe she is very good at game/table selection, and she picks the ones that compliment her play. At any rate, I think that at HP, either one of these decisions would be a toss-up.
What I really want to know is, what does Hero think about Q9o and 82s?
Brett,
You wrote: "What I really want to know is, what does Hero think about Q9o and 82s?"
She thinks I should practice what I preach :-).
Regards,
Rick
Rick-
I think the lesson to be learned here is that people can go on heaters that last a long, long time. I should know, because when I played in Denver there was a guy in our games named Carl who absolutely couldn't lose. I mean he just never left stuck (and yes, he did occasionally leave). It didn't seem to matter what he played-- 33 utg, 78s for three bets in the cutoff-- he would consistently drag the pot. As I understand it-- and I learned this from the game runner himself, who paid Carl out nightly--- the man won about 78 grand in five months playing 10-20 to 20-40. And this was in ONE GAME! God knows what he dragged out of the Med Club. Anyway, Carl quit his job at the bank because he just couldn't lost playing cards. He beat every club he played in downtown, then went to Vegas and absolutely bitched the 30-60 game at the Bellagio, winning about 19 grand in five weeks... then he tore into the locals in the pot limit game in Albuqerque, taking off another 8 grand or so in two weekends... Honest to Christ, this guy was the terror of the Southwest. Nobody could beat him.
I haven't talked to him in over a year, so I have no idea how he's doing now. But I do know that the heater he was on had lasted for about 1600 hrs. when I left town, and showed no signs of abating. And while he was a decent player (one of those types who has a pretty good idea of where things stand post-flop) his pre-flop game could have used some refinements.
I don't know what to say about your friend. Maybe the heater will end tomorrow, maybe it will stretch into the next millenium. What I do know, however, is that I want to be far, far away when her day of reckoning does come, because you'll hear the screams all the way to Kansas.
This is what happens when you get hundreds perhaps thousands of people playing a game that is so dominated by luck. You will always have your statistical deviates at the extreme ends of the bell shaped curve. Your friend Carl is a prime example. To the outside world, he looks like the greatest player ever when in reality his play is not much better than many other players. I believe some of the so called "best players" are really just statistical deviates like your friend Carl. But everyone assumes that good results mean good play.
Similarily, you have other players at the other end of the extreme who can go hundreds and,in extreme cases, thousands of hours but who cannot win. It is not necessarily their play that is the problem. I have known several players who cannot win despite playing a good game. Most of them give up poker alogether. Of course, the poker playing public never gets to hear about them since it is assumed that they must not have played well. Sophistry of the highest order.
You're completely right. Other than Carl, I can't think of another poker player I've met whose results weren't more or less reflective of their play, but then I've know hundreds of poker players. Obviously you're going to find some people who can ride the good wave for longer than expected. I don't know Rick's friend, but I do know she's doomed if she keeps playing like this. SHE may make tons of dough with QJo UTG, but nobody else I've ever met has done a damn thing with this hand, so I have to think it'll eventually catch up to her. Likewise the much-feared K7s.
Jim: If the game is so dominated by luck, then what's wrong with playing K-7s up front? If, as Mason says, it's only slightly wrong, then surely the luck factor is more important than whether or not you play the hand.
The answer, I think, is that luck is not what's at issue here. I agree with your post that to play K-7s up front is a money drainer. Luck may allow you to lose less than me, or me less than you, but we're still gonna lose playing like this.
GD and Jim,
Thanks for your posts on both threads. Let's hope she tightens up in the right spots and continues to make the inspired plays. I know she will hit a cold streak someday but you can be sure she will handle it with class. Nobody in Kansas has to worry.
Regards,
Rick
Without looking at the other responses, I think you're correct here. I would say your more correct about folding K7s UTG although QJ is really not playable either UTG. Sometimes though, when the game takes on a certain loose, weak style, you might find that you're able to make others limp in after you when you limp UTG. If you feel *very* confident that you can see the flop cheaply then it might be ok. But I would usually try this in later position.
Rahul
still plans on giving her male opponents a "Fekali" style enema post flop when she can :-).
You should never play in a way you do not believe is correct. If you don't really believe that K7s UTG is a losing play, then do so until something happens to change your mind. If you make plays because someone told you that was the right play, you will probably be making mistakes because you don't fully understand why you're making the play. You're simply following directions.
Besides, if we ever sit at the same table, I would LOVE to have you limping in with K7s and QJo UTG. It just doesn't matter how well you play pre flop.
natedogg
nt/
I muck both of these hands but K7s 3 off the button can't be that bad.
K7s - since it's loose passive and there are posted bets. Sure why not.
QJo - junk
3 walkers not posters.
I fold both.
It's interesting what mason has to say. basically if you play well post flop these hands don't cost you too much.
I'll go a little further. If you play well post flop these hands don't cost much AND if they cause other players to constantly misread your ability then they may make you money.
I fold because I doubt I play well enough to postflop to make the above true.
Obviously the game must be loose passive for this to be even considered.
Bet the Draw,
One problem with Hero is that almost every time I ask about her game she says it is "loose passive". So wishful thinking on her part (allowing her to justify playing more hands) may be a factor. The fact is that in both spots you figure to get raised about 40% of the time and three bet or capped maybe 15% of the time. In California that is "loose passive" ;-).
Regards,
Rick
In a recent post Rick Nebiolo wrote:
“For this hand Hero holds 6c-4c in the big blind in a loose, passive 15/30 game. Five players limp and the button raised. The button is somewhat loose, but tricky and aggressive compared to the rest of the field. The small blind folds, Hero calls (an easy call IMO), and the five limpers call. There are almost 15 small bets in the pot.
The flop comes 8d-4h-2c. Hero checks (would anybody bet here?), all of the limpers check and button bets. What is Hero's best play here and why?”
I think we all agree that Hero’s betting out on the flop is incorrect. So the question is, after everyone checks to the button who bets, and Hero is next to act, what should she do? Checkraise, call, or fold?
---
(assume no extra information is available)
Arguments for checkraising:
If in the unlikely event that Hero has the best hand at this point, then calling would be absolutely terrible and checkraising would be absolutely correct. Hero should not worry about saving bets because the pot is very big at this point (16 small bets). Even if checkraising is the incorrect play, it is not that far incorrect not only because of the pot size in general, but also because Hero must call anyway given such good pot odds compared to her chances of improvement.
Checkraising will also possibly knock out hands like higher diamonds, JT, T9, 77, 66, 55, and better fours. These hands would most likely call for one bet but not two.
Checkraising risks one or two extra bets (two if there is a reraise), possibly three if it gets capped. But checkraising, as opposed to calling or folding, will save the whole pot for Hero a small percentage of the time whereas folding or calling would not. Since the pot is large the risk is justified.
Since the button is a tricky, aggressive player, he could very well be betting overcards in the hopes of getting a free river card.
Finally, if Hero gets a lot of callers upon checkraising, but gets lucky anyway, she wins a bigger pot.
Arguments for calling:
Since the game is loose passive, it seems likely that an eight is already out there (if not a better hand such as pocket nines). If this is the case, then checkraising just throws away money since the eight (or better hand) will not fold. Remember, the game is loose passive so it’s quite possible that the best hand checked to the preflop raiser.
The button would probably not bet into a whole field with just overcards. If he had something like AK he would most likely just take the free card when everyone checks to him. So his betting anyway strongly indicates a hand that has Hero beat.
Even if Hero’s hand is best at this point, it is very fragile and if Hero checkraises and gets callers, determining the correct plays later on will be very difficult and potentially costly. And with so many hands out (as well as the players being loose), it is very likely that Hero will get more than one caller if she checkraises.
Hero is out of position. She cannot hope to get a free card on the turn (that is, unless her checkraise confused the other players enough to fear her hand. And then again, these players are passive, right? They would not bet unless they had something pretty good.) and she will have to act before everyone else.
Hero should not trap herself unnecessarily.
Finally, Hero wants the best implied odds to draw to her backdoor flush. The more players that stay in, the more likely it is that she will get paid off nicely.
Arguments for folding:
(I can’t think of any. The pot is large enough to warrant Hero’s continuing on, even if it was two bets cold to her.)
---
(I know that there are several other little arguments that I did not put in. Drawing dead or negated outs possibilities, for example.)
To conclude, considering everything I could given the information, I still believe that checkraising could be the right play in this spot because it’s either very correct or only somewhat wrong. But then again, since it’s so likely that Hero is already beat at this point, calling could very well be the superior play. Now that I think about it there are also some pretty compelling reasons for folding too. I am real stumped on this one.
sucker
PS but in any case I believe that it’s very close and so in the end it doesn’t really matter (again, assuming that no extra information is available). Right?
Sucker,
I'm surprised you didn't get more responses to your excellent post but maybe you covered all the bases. Perhaps your screen name scares people away :-).
Regards,
Rick
There has been a hand that's been buggin me for a while and I'd like to get some feedback on it.
Three players limp in, I'm the button and I have Ac6c and I call. The SB folds and the BB raises. He was been playing fairly tight so I think he likely has a group I hand and maybe AQs. 5 players and $210 in the pot.
Flop: 8 6 6 rainbow. BB bets, one player calls and I raise. I am not a big fan of slowplaying so I decide to take control of the hand right here. Who thinks waiting until the turn is a better play? BB calls, and limper calls. $330 in the pot and 3 players.
Turn: Q. Both check to me and I bet. BB check raises and limper folds. What is the play now? I put the checkraiser on QQ and I'm pretty sure I have one out but I'm not 100% confident in my hand reading skills so I decide I am going to pay off. $490 in the pot and two players.
River: is a blank. He bets I call and he shows me QQ.
I want to know how many players would have folded in this spot on the turn. Looking back, hindsight is 20-20, but I think if I would have trusted my instincts I could have saved $80. I'm just looking for some insight into hand reading and trusting one's judgement. All comments are welcome and appreciated.
These are usually must calls.
Would you raise if an Ace fell on the river?
Thanks for the little confidence boost. I was beginning to suspect that plays like this might be a leak in my game.
If you were planning on raising on the river if an Ace hit, you ought to have made it 3 bets on the turn as in essence the Ace will change nothing.
So, in answer to your question...no...you should not raise if the river is an Ace.
I was not planning a raise if an Ace fell.
You have to call.
The bb played it bad on the turn. He should bet out (after just having called your raise on the flop). This then has the effect of his opponents (including you) putting him on AQ. That being the case, he can get very good action if either you or the guy in the middle has a 6.
Other problems of his play are that the action might get checked through. Also, by checkraising you, he gets the middle guy out when he doesn't want to get him out.
Yes, it felt like my opponent had played his hand wrong on the turn. If he would have bet out I would have been a little confused. I would likely have put him on AA, KK, or AQ. He would have trapped the middle player and I would have probably raised.
I'm sure glad I wasn't playing against you on this hand. :)
Once you get check-raised on the turn by a tight player, you know you're beat. It is clear that he can only have QQ. I think you have to pay him off though. There are tricky players out there who will try turn-check-raise-bluff type plays so you should pay off.
Rahul
In the games I play in, the pre-flop raiser will often have AA or KK in this spot, and will not reraise this not-too-dangerous-looking flop against few opponents, so he can checkraise the turn when the guy who raised him (usually with top pair or another overpair) bets again. This game is loose, and the benefits of this play are that often, the third player can't be shut out of the pot for 2 more flop bets, but he will fold for 2 big bets. If a 2-flush flops, though, most players reraise right then, because the other guys are more likely to be in to the end anyway. So, in my opinion, you've got to pay off here, and I admire your restraint on the turn.
I'm in early-middle position with QTs. I'm the first limper. All fold to the button who raises and I call. I've played against the button before -- I consider him to be a tight, reasonably solid player, more on the passive than aggressive side.
We see the flop heads-up. The flop comes K, J, 9 with a two-flush on board (not my suit). I bet my straight, he raises, I re-raise, he re-raises, I re-rase and he finally calls. What do you think of the my re-re-raise? Should I just call and pop it on the turn or should it be me who throws in the last raise on the flop?
The turn is unfortunately a J. Fearing that I'm up against at least a full house I decide to check-call. How can I lay it down? Surprisingly, the button checks as well.
The turn is a K. Again I check realizing that a bet probably won't make him fold. He in turn checks and shows 99 for a full house.
I told him I flopped the straight -- should I have told him that? I was naturally disappointed and couldn't stop talking about the hand for about 5 minutes.
All comments welcome,
Rahul
Not much to be done here.
Pre-flop I don't like being the first in from early or middle position with Queen-Ten suited but prefer to limp in behind others. In a decent game it is too easy for you to get isolated by a late position player with a raise. Now you are out of position with a weak hand. But all that being said your limp was okay.
There is nothing wrong with pounding the pot having the nuts and facing a coordinated board like this. It is obvious that the pre-flop raiser has two pair or a set. Once the board pairs all you can do is play it like a little girl by checking and calling and paying off. You were lucky he played so poorly by failing to bet the river.
I'm not even sure you have to pay it off. You probably do, but... it's a small pot, and you can't make him for an overpair when he four bets since he's a tightish player. When the board paired on the turn I probably would have bet (just to make sure, you know) and then mucked when he raise. Of course, he wouldn't have raised here since he didn't even bet the turn (a horrible mistake, BTW). Which means in this instance I probably would have had to pay off. But ordinarily I'd have to think twice about it if I bet the turn and got raised.
I think the check on the river was a good idea, although I might have bet had a baby hit (since your opponent checked the turn it's hard to put him on a boat).
>>I told him I flopped the straight -- should I have told him that?<<
No.
>>I was naturally disappointed and couldn't stop talking about the hand for about 5 minutes. <<
Don't do that. Players will drill into you harder knowing you're steamed. If you're pissed, keep it inside, miss your blinds, go for a short walk, and come back. When the hand was over, you should have just tapped the table, said "nice hand", and thrown in your cards. With patience, those chips are coming back to you.
It's surprising that he didn't bet the turn, but he must have made a stubborn read (2 pair or set), and stuck to it. However, it's no wonder he didn't bet the river, since any K or J beats him, and you could've been checkraising if you'd filled up on 4th street. Given your analysis of his style, I don't think you had to pay off. What would a tight, PASSIVE player raise pre-flop with, and still give all that action on the flop? I can't think of anything but KK, JJ, or 99, and the nines actually surprises me a little. Tough luck on that hand, but it didn't cost as much as it could've.
Good luck in the future
It was another crazy night playing 20-40 1/2 kill at the Isle of Capri in Bettendorf, Iowa. I have at least one hand I want to seek comments on.
I am under the gun and look down to find A9 of hearts. I raise. I get two cold callers plus both blinds. The flop comes 55A rainbow. I bet and all call. The turn is a 9 of clubs putting two clubs on the board. I bet out and everyone calls. The river is a Q. Again I bet out and everyone calls. I show two pair and take the pot down.
After the hand one of players, a nonregular in this game, starts complaining about how "lucky" I got. He shows AJ offsuit and says I couldnt raise or put any pressure on you because I was afraid you had a real hand like AK.
I didnt say a word and stacked my chips. The question I have is, why did he call two bets cold with AJ if he is afraid of AK????????? This didnt make any sense to me at all. Further, he hit his hand and then he doesnt think he can put any pressure on with it....what is the sense of playing the hand?
Am I being too rough with my analysis or am I pretty much right on?
in the games I play in cold calling a good players raise from UTG with AJ off is a real loser,second point I think A9s raise UTG is questionable as in this case you got called by a better hand that had position on you,once you bet and got called a red flag should have gone up that you were beat (you were),you sucked out on the turn with the worst hand.How could he have gotten you off your hand?He just played it poorly preflop and didnt punish you like he should have on the flop,but I truly cant put together a scenario of you laying it down either pre flop,on the flop ,or turn.You were beat before the flop,on the flop,and got stone lucky on the turn.What were you going to do if you didnt improve on the turn?You took the worst of it.
I believe that for my play in this particular game it is necessary for me to make some plays like this. Because I raise with A9 suited as well as AQ and AK, I get calls from the regulars with inferious aces when I raise. I am able to dominate other hands because of the play with A9 suited.
As far as my play on the flop and beyond, I had less fear because the under pair was there. If the 9 had not hit I would have continued betting. ONce the Q hit on the river even if I had not hit my 9 on the turn we would have split. Finally, all the regulars at the table would have re-raised with AQ or AK so I would have known before the flop I might be in trouble.
Does any of this make sense? Finally, you are correct, there was not a senario in which I could have been convinced to lay this hand down by the cold caller. Either of the blinds raising on the flop would have scared me far more than the cold caller as they may well have one of the two remaining 5s.
Thanks for you comments. I enjoyed reading them.
Hi Jim,
In problem number four in the latest issue of Card Player, you say it's worth $40 to try and snag an ace on the river. But you also figured that "you are almost certainly up against three sixes", so if you don't help your hand on the end, would you call with your pocket aces if:
(1) a safe card hits(let's say no ten or spade), it's checked to the button who bets, it's passed to you.
(2) a safe card hits, it's checked to the button who bets, 'one' player calls before it gets to you.
In both cases you still have the cutoff yet to act after you.
-Don
Saturday night I was playing in a 20-40 1/2 kill game and had TT (black tens) in early position. I raised and get called by a player who calls two bets too willingly and the big blind who calls any raise of his blind no matter what he has.
The flop comes 5 7 9 two hearts. The big blind checks, I bet and get raised my the player behind me. The big blind re-raises. I lay TT down. Was this a good lay down?
Results to follow later in the day.
The lay down can't be too bad. Too many cards can come on the turn that are trouble. Anything 5 through 9 could help an opponent's hand, anything J through A is an overcard to your pair, and any heart is worrisome. Your overpair is not "over" enough--it would be different if you had Aces.
The winning hand, the big blind, had A9 and I didnt get to see the other raisers hand. My TT was good.
In hindsight, because both players put a lot of action into every hand they play, I think I should have re-raised.
on a leap of faith ( I haven't read results yet), and knowing that game, I'm gonna say bad laydown, and worth a reraise--I smell a big 9 and a flush draw lurking
Friday Night at a Michigan Card Room (Soaring Eagle) I'm playing 20-40. Very good game and easy to beat (the fishy were plentiful, LOL).
I'm in the nine seat and suddenly a guy sits down and plays in the seven seat (this is VERY important as I will find out later in the night). I've never seen or played with this guy before so I'm really observant of him as he buys-in a dime and stacks his chips.
The very first impression I would get from him through his play is very loose, aggressive and crazy. He proceeded to win the first 2 or 3 hands which he played with garbage such as J,4 or 7,5. I began thinking to myself mmmmmmm'. This guy does NOT fold. I think he probably played at least 75% of his hands.
He drank beer after beer as the night went on and went thorugh at least two $2000 swings (win and lose $2000). This guy along with one or two others on the table sent the whole group into another dimension. Some of the players on this table were beyond tilt, they were in the next level, a level which I've never seen before.
2 out of 3 hands the pot would reach at least $700-$800 and at least one pot in a round would reach $1000 or more. Chips were being fired into the pot like there was no tommorow. Almost every hand - call, call, raise 40, reraise, fold (this the the guy in 6 seat "Paul" - the ROCK of Gibralter), and then the guy in 7 seat would say "WE DON'T DRINK COFFEE, WE DRINK CAAPPPPAAACCCINNNOOO". I'd be sitting in the 9 seat with pocket K's or Q's and I can't even get a raise in. Needless to say my big hands were cracked often and each time it cost me at least $200-$300 because of all the raising. There was one hand where a guy reraised the turn to $160 with a DRAW (he had DICK-ALL, JUST A DRAW), and there were 4-5 people who were still in on the turn at $160.
I found that a lot of my drawing hands were what was making me the money. The reason why it was so important that the guy in 7 seat was to my right was because he would bet no matter what (if he had K high, bottom pair, virtually anything) he would bet, so if I'm sitting there with top pair good kicker I would 2 bet and drive some people out, also making it a lot more expensive for all those "chasers".
To make a long story short this had to be the absolute best 20-40 game I have ever played in. I made about 3 dimes that night and Mr. Joey Cappaccino along with a couple other Sick players dropped about $4000 each.
What made this game so interesting was that this type of play I normally only see on a 3-6 or low limit table where the money doesn't matter that much since it's not very much. But the pots in this game were so HUGE.
Any comments or opinions on how to fully take advantage of a game like this in the future?
This guy was the first player I have ever played with that would laugh at you like an idiot after I would call his bet at the river with bottom pair and he would show something like J high.
He would want to shake your hand and he would say "hahahaha NIIICCCEEE Hand" while you take down the $1000 plus pot.
"Any comments or opinions on how to fully take advantage of a game like this in the future? "
yes play more like the player that raised on the turn with five people in.
Great observation Ray! Very telling that the capped bet 4-5 ways was viewed as a bad play.
That's the first thing I thought when I read that.
Getting involved pre-flop in this game may be difficult. Knowing it is going to be raised and possibly capped, how often do you come in with a drawing hand.
Is it not better to play tighter since essentially the blinds have become almost meaningless in this game.
How do you take advantage of this game?
Bring huge bankroll, drink bottle of Malox, and play very aggressively.
Get out the rosary....and play those nut flush draws if 7 or more people are seeing the flop regularly...
I just sat down in seat number #1 in a wild 15-30 game. There is a mixture of solid, loose and maniacal players in the game. First hand I am dealt As7s in the cutoff seat. UTG limps, Seat #5 limps, Seat #6 limps, Seat #7 limps, Seat 8 folds, Seat #9 folds, Seat #10 limps, I decide to limp. Button limps, SB calls the other 5 dollars and BB checks.
Surprisingly no raise before the flop and it's 8 way to see the flop.
Flop comes down 4s6s9h. SB, BB checks. UTG bets. UTG is a loose agressive player. Seat 5, 6 both call. Seat 7 folds, Seat 10 calls. I just call.
Question: Was the call here right? Should I have raised for value? My reason is that I still have the button along with SB and BB behind me and I want to get more value for my draw by just calling to give me better odds.
Anyways, button calls, SB folds and BB calls.
7 players to see the turn. No raise on the flop.
Turn comes a 3s. I now have the Ace high flush. SB and BB check again, UTG fires in $30. All players fold to seat number #10 who calls. I decide to just call.
Question: Should I have raised here?
Button folds, SB calls and BB folds. 4 players to see the river.
River is a Kh. SB checks, UTG fires $30 again. Seat #10 calls, now I raise. SB folds, UTG cry calls. Seat #10 folds. I take down the pot with the Ace high flush.
Question: Did I max the pot? Did I play this correctly?
Thanks
The Fish
You should raise on the flop here, you have enough players calling already to get value for the raise and you will often buy a free card on the turn. You should usually raise the turn too because you get two extra bets from the players already in and thats as much as you get even if both players behind you call.
Chris
Your call preflop is fine. With this hand, you have enough limpers and you don't want to raise preflop.
The call on the flop could go either way. At a table like this, with a mixture of loose aggressive and maniacal players, you might get reraised and that would cut down on your odds. I like the call. If you were playing against more timid opponents, a raise for the free card might be in order.
You ABSOLUTELY MUST raise the turn. You have the nuts, the pot is fairly good sized, and you must make two pair or a set pay to fill up. Also, you might get another flush to play back. A K or Q high flush might not put you on the A high since you didn't raise the flop. You must raise here.
Of course, raising on the river with the nuts is pretty much automatic. I think you cost yourself $90 or more by not raising the turn. That can really add up in the long run.
Dammit, that's what position is FOR. You definitely failed to maximize your profit on this hand.
natedogg
On the flop, I feel that there is no set out there (maybe UTG had a set?) so I'm too worried about the board pairing up with a flush out there. I could have raised the flop, but in this particular game I am almost sure that someone will re-raise again and it will be capped costing me 3 extra small bets to the turn. Plus if I do the first raise on the flop, many people will suspect that I have a flush draw. After all, someone must have flopped the spade draw if didn't.
I feel that it might have been mistake not raising on the turn and just smooth calling to suck in another player. If anyone had a smaller flush they would've raised. I think everyone was drawing dead. Maybe two pair was out there (UTG?). He didn't even fear the 3 card straight, let alone the flush. Actually, as I look back at it I think I gained an extra 2 big bets from just smooth calling the turn. If I raised the turn, SB would fold, UTG would probably call and seat #1 would probably fold.
I think I developed a tight image on the table so that next time I have position with a big drawing hand I can raise for value and try to get a free card since players will think that I am not going to raise with a drawing hand.
Thanks all!
Love this forum and I love Jim Brier! Great article in Cardplayer.
You should definitely raise the flop, you will make your flush more than 1/3 of the time, so as long you have 2 or more players raising is the play, also you have an A which may be good if it hits. In fact if you are in a game where once people call one bet they are in till the end of the round you should raise and be prepared to cap the flop!
I think you are even make an argument for raising preflop, as this hand plays well muliway especially if the players often check to the raiser...
ON the turn what makes you think SB and BB will call now. You will probably will more bet from the two callers for sure now, and you might not get that from the blinds. Not to mention you ahve the best hand now, and might not the river. Also if you raise on river almsot everyone except one or bestcase scenario 2 will call 2 bets on that street.
I am an experienced stud player who recently played holdem for the first time. The game was 10-20. I played fairly tight pre-flop, but found that many times I was at a total loss for how to play on the flop.
For example, in one hand I had QsJs in late position, and about six players saw the flop which was Jh,Th,8h. It was checked around to the player on my right, who bet. I didn't have a clue whether my hand (top pair with a gut shot) was playable here. I decided to raise; my thinking was that the bettor was more likely to hold one heart than two (Bayes' theorem) and by raising I might knock out other players and improve my chances of winning with a pair of jacks if another heart didn't fall.
As it happened, a player in early position called $20 cold, and the original bettor also called.
The turn was a blank; it was checked around to me and I checked. The river was the 9 of clubs, completing my straight. It was checked around to me, I bet, and one person called. I showed my cards and took the pot.
Afterwards, I saw two players looking again at my cards and exchanging glances indicating that I must be psychotic. They couldn't believe that I had raised on the flop without a heart.
Was my play here smart, or was I just incredibly lucky?
Should I generally fold top pair when the flop is three suited cards and someone bets? What do I do if I have two pair or trips in that situation?
Thanks for any help.
I think this is a good question. A legitimate draw is unlikely to fold whether or not you raised. Then again, a lesser draw may have gone on to beat you had you not raised. I think this is what needs to be weighed. If your opponents are such, that they will play inferior draws anyway, then raising makes less sense. However, if your raise can knock out smaller hearts, straight draws, a pair of jacks, or even a single overcard, I would think it's worth it. IMO-
Kevin
This is totally backwards thinking. If the singleton Ah, which is what i imagine the check and call two player had, wants to try and outdraw you, he has to pay for the privelige. If you have the current best hand and are faced by drawing hands, always make them pay the maximum to draw. That's why its also a better idea to bet the turn and check the river.
Chris
"This is totally backwards thinking. If the singleton Ah, which is what i imagine the check and call two player had, wants to try and outdraw you, he has to pay for the privelige. If you have the current best hand and are faced by drawing hands, always make them pay the maximum to draw. That's why its also a better idea to bet the turn and check the river."
I would agree with this except that you may already be beat. If not, your hand is extremely vulnerable to being beat by the river. With this flop against 6 players, it's not hard to imagine being an underdog even if QJ is the best hand at the moment.
The raise is good, but be careful as you may already be beaten by AJ, KJ, JT etc. If the bettor makes it three on the flop you are in deep trouble and are going to have to fold the turn. The check behind on the turn looks good but you may be better off betting the turn and checking the river if you're up against an aggressive player who will bet AJ or KJ on the river when no heart falls.
Bottom line, top pair good kicker needs to be played aggressively on a 3-flush flop. Make those singleton hearts pay.
Chris
I should add that if the flop bettor is passive enough that he will bet only top pair, good kicker or better on a board like that and check-call everything else, you should fold your QJ. But you don't fold it because the board has three hearts.
If the bettor is just as likely to bet a hand like ATo or just the singleton Ah, go ahead and raise.
Chris
"Bottom line, top pair good kicker needs to be played aggressively on a 3-flush flop. Make those singleton hearts pay."
Now I might say this type of thinking is one dimensional. At the very least, it seems to lack the foresight of having a plan against many scenarios. What do you do if the Ah, Kh, 9h or a T hits? You might be sorry you put in all that money on the flop. Especially when you can't be sure you're not gonna get outplayed on a later street.
-The mathematically correct pay is not always the best play.(Chip Reese)
-You must maintain a reputation for honor in the gambling business. Your word must be your bond. It'll be your Ace-in-the hole.(Super System)
-Montana Words of Wisdom . . .they have life down to a science, wouldn't you say?
-Crisis management principle: Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
-Lettin' the cat outta the bag is a whole lot easier'n puttin the cat back in.
-Negotiation principle: Never drop yer gun to hug a grizzly.
-If you're ridin' ahead of the herd, take a look back every now and then to make sure it's still there.
-If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence, try orderin' somebody else's dog around.
-A good horse never comes in a bad color.
-After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
-The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
-Never kick a cow chip on a hot day.
-There's two theories to arguin' with a woman.... Neither one works.
-Don't worry about bitin' off more than you can chew. Your mouth is probably a whole lot bigger'n you think.
-If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging.
-Never slap a man who's chewin' tobacco.
-It don't take a genius to spot a goat in a flock of sheep.
-Always drink upstream from the herd.
-When you give a lesson in meanness to a critter or person, don't be surprised if they learn their lesson.
-When you're throwin' your weight around, be ready to have it thrown around by somebody else.
-Always take a good look at what you're about to eat. It's not so important to know what it is, but you might need to know what it was...
-The quickest way to double your money is to fold it over and put it back in your pocket.
-Never miss a good chance to shut up.
-There are three kinds of men:
-The one that learns by reading. The few that learn by observation. The rest of them that have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.
So you think your good real good I have a game for you 20-40. No problem. No I mean 20000-40000. This was the game played this week in the biggest game in the world. It made me want to go to the box and gamble it up. To bad many of the players you see today will never have the opportunity to play at this level the highest in poker. Today's tip profiling of players relates to the way the game was played all week. Heads Up. No other opponents as specific as you can get. What do you look for and how do you do it. General demeanor to the specifics. Remember their is no other opponents but the ones left in the pot with you. Poker is an information based game the more you can gather the more it will be worth to you. It will make border line decisions easier and the simple decisions almost automatic. When you are out of the pot you must gather information. That is your job. Now what do you look for? The first thing to notice is how the opponent plays. Is he timid, solid, a maniac, calling station or an aggressive opponent. Next note his bet steps. Does he bet the flop and not the turn when he does not have a made hand. Does he bet the flop the turn and not the river. Or does he just bet all the way. Here's an example of how this helped me this week. On the button was an opponent who always raised opponents in front of him and eliminated the blinds. He then would bet all the way to river hoping to blow the one opponent out. Well, Hosh was in the blind and let him do it once then the 2nd time. However, the third time Hosh was just going to make him show the hand down. No way he was going to win the pot unless I had absolutely nothing. I say here he goes again as he raises an early position caller. Luckily, Hosh has QT of hearts. The flop comes down K J 3 two spades. I check the original caller checks and he bets on the button. The original caller calls but gives not indication whether or not he has anything. Again on the turn I check and the original caller checks as an off suit 6 hits. The aggressive player on the button bets. I call and the original early caller folds. On the river comes a 5 as I expected he bets I call and show the hand down Q high(remember Q high is not nothing). He turns over and off suit Q9. I win the pot.
Note how he bets with a made hand aggressive or almost timidly. Does it change when he is bluffing. Fast to not give you time to think or slow to suck you into the pot. Or does he hesitate extra long with a huge hand. Take notes for later it will come in handy.
Next note how the opponent plays his position. In last position does he bet when he does not have much or does he check waiting for a big hand. You can use this to bet a made hand not giving a free card or check raising to gain and extra bet.
Now the specifics watch him. Start with his hands, then his arm motion and then how he breathes. Look at his face. Look for giveaways. Can he shuffle his chips when he does not have a hand. Is he breathing fully or shallow as when he bluffs. Does he carry a full real smile or a fake corner of the mouth smile. These are the things to notice try to play them in your mind backwards and forwards, all the way through the hand. Relating what you see on the river to his actions. Remember it is almost impossible for an opponent to hide his true intent. One part is going to give him away and it's either going to be his breathing, shuffling or his smile or any other thing you notice that has changed from his previous actions. This is profiling.
Now go out and practice in live situations. Maybe if you hope and dream and play well you may get an opportunity to play the biggest game in the world at the highest level of poker. Your name will be spread over the Internet as winning one million or two million in a few hours.
-Hosh still is looking for your input. Please let me know your funny stories or interesting things heard at the table this week. (Please no bad beats I heard them all.)
-Email me at Hosh115@aol.com.
-Remember play well and have fun!(Hosh)
-The mathematically correct play is not always the best play.(Chip Reese)
He's wrong.
Vince
there are situations that can arise in poker where it would be correct not to press small or even large mathematical edges, "bankroll preservation" being the key concideration here.
Hosh- nice post, thanks for your contributions
You may just be right. Bankroll considerations may be a driver. However, that does not make the decision a correct poker decision. But being bankroll dependent myself I will agree with you with regards to your point here.
Vince
Vince,
I don't want to pull out my crumbling copy of Super System but I remember Reese described a situation in his introduction to the seven-stud chapter where in his youth he had a made hand and his very live opponent had a draw and he (Chip) was a slight favorite. He put in many raises but his opponent got there and Chip was broke and on the rail for that game.
In a nutshell, Chip said he should have backed off and waited for better opportunities to outplay the live one with a larger edge.
Regards,
Rick
How about when checkraising someone terrible will net you more money, but will cause them to leave the game?
Bill
I think if you could device a really nice big mathmatical equation that would show your lifetime gain from poker then Hosh is wrong.
Such an equation would relate the bet you currently plan to make to just about every conceivable poker variable. You could show mathmatically which was the best play. Potentially in a home game that could mean folding the nut hand to a losing player whom you knew would quit playing if he didn't have a winning night soon.
Otherwise while I think Chip was technically wrong, he was actually right. And while I thing you are wrong, I think you are technically right. Then again I could be wrong about being right.
Regards Mike N
If you know that a particular player, who once he has been drawn out, will go on major tilt then it can sometimes make sense to make a slightly negative call with the intent of drawing out on him. If this happens, the negative EVs that will result from his tilt will more than pay for the current negative play.
There are times when considerations of image also come into play i.e., you may have to make a mathematically incorrect play with future hands in mind.
-It don't take a genius to spot a goat in a flock of sheep.
If it did Ray Zee would never have sex.
vince
"To bad many of the players you see today will never have the opportunity to play at this level the highest in poker. "
The level is not important. What is important is how important that the level you are playing at is to you. If 10-20 yields the same feeling in you that 20,000 - 40,000 yields in those that play at that level then you each have the same experience. It's relative. O.K so maybe not exactly relative but you get my meaning.
vince
"I call and show the hand down Q high(remember Q high is not nothing). He turns over and off suit Q9"
I had a prop at Crystal Park Casino make the same play against me. Same hands exactly. It sure did help my game by losing that hand. Vince
Hey Vince
If a prop(seasoned pro most are)is calling you down with that junk, that means you have some kind of subtle tell he's picked up on, you better discover it and correct it quick.
For those interested we have a link to Hosh's site. Go to ur links and click on Poker Performance Psychology.
nt
10-20 online HE.
I get dealt JJ one from cutoff. All fold to the Player to my right who limps, I raise, all fold to the bb who calls, and limper calls.
Flop comes A T 5 with 2 clubs, limper bets out. Should I have folded here given i dont have a club and that better probably has a decent Ace? I call one bet more, turn makes the flush possible, limper bets out and I fold.
My questions are should I have folded on the flop given my suspicions, raise to see where the limper was standing, or call him down. I dont have a read on the better b/c I just sat down. Thx for feedback.
You should have folded on the flop given your suspicions.
You are new to the table and don't have a read on the players. So you have no information other than the betting on this round. The betting on this round tells you that you are beat already.
natedogg
You have just gotta raise here. If the limper is aggressive he will bet a massive range of hands here, especially the clubs draw. Bet the turn and check behind him on the river and fold if you ever get raised. OK fair enough you're going to pay off an ace once in a while but you have got to make all the other hands pay. You may also get something like AXs to fold. I think it's likely the limper has a drawing hand here and is trying to make you fold if you don't have an ace.
There's no sense at all in "calling one bet more" in this situation, you are not going to make an aggressive player back off by going blink, blink, blink, call... and what turn card are you hoping for other than a jack? Raise or fold, but only fold if you are SURE the limper will only bet an ace here.
Chris
You should raise the flop here.There are too many hands the limper may have that you can beat and this is the time to try and find out.If he just calls your raise and checks the turn you can check or bet depending on your feel. He may lay down a poor A or a hand without a club. If he still bets out the turn after your raise, you should probably fold then. By spending 1 more small bet you have greatly improved your chance of winning this hand.
You say there are too many hands the limper can have which are beaten by JJ.
What hands do you think this guy has?
Two clubs? Maybe, but they are likely to be big clubs, in which case the JJ is practically even money.
A gut shot? Not likely. But even so, you are facing 10 tens with your uncertain holding.
How about a pair of tens with a two flush? Another even money situation.
Now how about an A? An A is very likely and in fact more likely because of the betting. When a limper bets into a preflop raiser, he often has that A.
I don't think there are a lot hands that JJ can beat right here. JJ is losing to QQ, KK, 55, any A, and is merely even money against a flush draw with a gut shot or a flush draw with a pair of tens. The JJ doesn't really have a lot of room to be the best here.
At most I would advocate one raise on the flop, but often a fold here is correct against the right players. And you should DEFINITELY fold if you get reraised on the flop.
natedogg
10-20 HE game still
I've been raising a lot of hands lately and been winning with them. They all have not been great and I think i've established a loose image at the table. Now i get dealt KK in the BB and 6 limpers limp to me. I check planning to check raise the flop should no Ace come.
Flop A 6 2. 2 clubs Doh!!! Early limper bets 3 callers I fold. Good fold? I had the K of clubs but would have had to chase a long ways with an Ace out there already... well J of clubs comes on the turn and K diamonds on river. My hand woulda been best but oh well...should I have folded or chased?
You should have definitely called given the outcome.
I doubt that there's any clever way to play KK after the flop that can make up for all the bets you missed before the flop. The additional bets might have given you the odds you needed to chase and win the hand.
6 limpers + you = $70.
flop early limper bets + 3 callers = $40 $110 total your bet would have made it $120 giving you 12-1 pot odds. you are looking at 9 outs, plus the other 2 kings gives you 11 outs total.
47 - 11 = 4 - 1 approximately.
You are golden my friend with this. The nut flush draw + a possbility of 3 kings. The fact that there were no raises indicates that everyone was 4 flushing at best.
Personally, I think I would have raised. Freeze the limper in his bet and possibly get a free card. If he re-raises, whoops, at least im still getting pot odds (or close to it)
When the next card clubs, i check, let my opponent bet, i call. K hits, I bet, or go for a check and raise, depends how many people are in.
Odds are when the 4th club hits, there will be betting to increase you money.
You should have definitly chased.
Ender... on the flop he only had 3 clubs!
So in fact, he has about 1 chance on 23 to hit a flush. Normally players consider a backdoor flush draw to be 1 out, sometimes 2.
In the case here 11 bets are in and youre about a 14:1 dog in my opinion. I prolly would have folded but chasin wasnt bad either.
The thing is that your outs are not sure winner. What if a golden king fall on the turn and then an ace on the river.. might be losin to A2 offsuit :) Or u hit your backdoor flushdraw but it pairs the board...
Maybe im wrong but i would have folded too...
However, i cant believe u just check b4 the flop.. Cost u about $300 coz with a preflop raise, u would then definitively had sufficient odds to chase and win...
You know what, I completely misread that, I thought it said 3 clubs!! Thanx for the notice Charlie, yep, u are right, he made the correct decision!
15-30, Bellagio Friday mid-day, 9 grizzled veterans and a fish (me).
Hand 1: I am UTG and limp with 88. Surprise--it isn't raised and Cut off and both blinds come in.
Flop is 236 rainbow. SB bets, BB raises I fold what would have been the winner. (BB shows 56). Error?
**
Hand 2: I raise a single limper from the button with AA. A loose agressive lady in the BB calls, limper calls.
Flop K 6 3 rainbow. Checked to me I bet both call.
Turn is 8d putting 2 diamonds on the board. I do not have the A of diamonds. Checked to me I bet. Only the BB calls. (This is concerning; with a made hand she most likely would have bet out or check raised. I assume she is on a draw but she could have a wide range: A6d A3d and several small straight draws, plus possiblly Kx; she showed some weird hands from the blinds)
River comes a black 4. She checks, I 'value' bet, she check raises, I call and am shown 52d for the straight. Given that half the deck could be a card that completes a draw was the bet an error? The call?
Thanks in advance
A9
Hand #1: Terrible mistake. You should reraise Hand #2: River call is OK
If a solid player raised UTG and all fold to you in the LB and you have QJ suited - would you call?
You don't have a clue if the BB will call or not because he never looks at his hand until after you have acted.
If you knew the BB would call if you called; would you call then? Thanks
Bob,
I would fold not knowing if the big blind would play. A call by the big blind makes it much HARDER to outplay a solid UTG raiser and your suitedness and the fact that you are connected doesn't help much against two opponents. It is a different story with four or more opponents.
If I knew the big blind was FOLDING! it “might” be a play if you have a read on the solid UTG player, but if you did he would be predictable and really not solid at all.
As a general rule, if you are considering a pre-flop call with a hand that is probably dominated by higher cards, you would prefer to be head up even when suited. The third party makes your hand more difficult to play. But if you have many players coming to your party, then suitedness helps a lot and usually makes up for being dominated by high cards as long as you play well post flop.
Regards,
Rick
Another thing I try to remember is that there really aren't any hands that play well in three-handed pots except for group 1 and 2 hands and a few of the other high-card hands, but even with these (like, say, AJo, ATo, etc.) the hand is much easier to play well when you have position. I wouldn't put QJ (suited or otherwise) in this group because it doesn't have high-card strength.
To me this is an easy fold.
First off you said that it's a SOLID player so he is probably raising a hand better then Q,J suited (so immeditately you are an underdog).
Second there are no callers in the hand thus the size of the pot is pretty small, so even if you hit you won't get paid a good deal.
It's always a good guideline to remember that drawing hands like Q,J suited and other suited connectors play better in multiway pots where you can get good pot odds for your draws.
So regardless of what the BB does you should fold!
No and no.
The part that is confusing to me is at what point is the odds a factor to make you call with QJs. Headsup - you are getting almost 3 to 1 ($110 to $40) Two opponents - 4 1/4 to 1 ($170 to $40) Three opponents - almost 6 to 1 ($230 to $40)
So what is the dividing line? 3 players? - 4 or more?
If you were the BB instead, how much difference would it make?
Minimum requirements to play in the BB and SB Thanks
Thanks
Bob,
I'm not sure there is a line but rather a bell curve of some sort. Let's say you are in the big blind. In order for your suitedness to overcome your tenuous high card strength (relative to UTG), I would usually want at least three cold callers. I would play head up against most opponents, but not against a tough, solid tenacious opponent. I would not play against two typical opponents and three would be marginal.
I hope others come in on this one. Head up and three way pots are very different and pot odds is not the key.
Regards,
Rick
I'm not sure if you meant to say "big blind" in your last post, or if you meant in the small blind, but I think its correct to defend the BB with QJs in most situations, including heads up against an typical UTG raiser...
Shawn Keller
Uh, no Shawn. I disagree. Minimum requirements to call a raise should be high even for the blinds.
Bob:
You need to think in terms of expectation, and good judgement here comes with experience.
When you say your odds improve from 3-to-1 to 4 1/4-to-1 you seem to be implying that your "odds" go up over 40 percent, that's 4 1/4 divided by 3. But that's not the case since with two opponents the probability of winning has gone down versus one opponent.
In addition, you need to understand that there are four rounds to this game. Thus if you call a bet on each round you are no longer getting 3-to-1. It's more like 8-to-6 which is the same as 4-to-3.
This is a topic for which much more could be written than what I have here. But the above should help you a little.
To answer, your question, if I am in the big blind with a hand like QJs against a legitimat raise, I generally want three other players. If one of my opponents plays awful, it might be okay to go with two. If I'm in the small blind and I have QJs and there is a legitimate raise, I want at least one additional player. Also note that when I say legitimate raise I am distinguishing from a steal raise where I will now play heads-up and may even reraise.
n/t
Mason:
Why would you need fewer opponents when spending more money to call in the sb?
I think that you misunderstand what I meant to say. When in the small blind you want at least one additional player already in from what you would require from the big blind position. So if you want three players when in the big blind, you want at least four players when in the small blind. (Note: if the big blind is likely to play, you can count him as your player.)
" if I am in the big blind with a hand like QJs against a legitimat raise, I generally want three other players."
Do you mean three including the raiser, or the raiser plus three more (=4 total)? Thanks.
There is no way I call here in the little blind facing a solid raise with QJ suited or not. Same goes for the big blind. I would want a raiser caller caller caller to call in the little blind and a raiser caller caller for the big blind.
I have not run well lately but like most things it should pass. When running poorly your opponents notice and to an extent you become a target. Since I'm human, perhaps I lose a little aggressiveness and may be subject to the sort of “mini-tilt” John Feeney describes so well in his book.
I'm in a 15/30 game where I haven't won a pot for two hours (and only won a few all day at several tables). In the few pots I've played opponents have caught miracle cards to beat me every which way. So to say the least, I don't have a dominant image, but I haven't whined and have plenty of chips in front of me. This game I'm in is better than the other 15/30 game and the 20/40 game list is too long as I plan to leave in an hour so this is my last table for the evening.
After getting a few big hands cracked I pick up another pair of black jacks in the cutoff. A couple of average players limp, as does a very live player (VLP) on my right. I raise, the button folds, both blinds call as well as the limpers. The VLP limp-reraises (the first time he made this play) and I call, as do the others. Would anyone cap it here? (My thoughts will be posted later).
The flop comes A-K-3 two suited in hearts, which is about the worse flop possible for me. All check to me and I check, fearing I am being trapped with a big hand and that at least one of my opponents should have an ace or king (these players won't fold a pair). Question: Would anyone bet the flop and why?
The turn comes an offsuit blank. One of the more solid players who limped early bets, all fold to the VLP who raises. I fold. Was this a mistake or the smart play?
All comments are appreciated. Results and some of my thoughts will be posted later.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
Finally, I have a chance to respond to a post of yours because I don't think I would have played it the way you played it. Everytime I read your post and rationalize what you've done, I just can't accept it.
1. Preflop Play
When you got re-raised by the VLP, my next course of action would have been to cap it and hopefully get it heads up with him.
2. Postflop Play
Now to compound the error, you checked the flop of A-K-3 when everyone check to you? Regardless of how tricky or sneaky the players are, I would have taken a shot of betting out. (My thoughts are if I have the best cards coming in, which is the reason for my raise in the first place anyway, then let me see if I still have the best cards after the flop.) When you raised before the flop, all the players including VLP would be thinking that you must have either overcards or high pairs in your hand, that's why all of them check to you. Remember all of the players, VLP included, know you are a very tough and solid player so they respect your raise. When I'm in doubt, I always follow the advice Vince Lepore once gave to Student the first time she posted on the forum and it always work. "Let Fear by your Friend, and not your Enemy".
3. Turn Play
Had you bet the flop, your turn play would have been to check after all players check (if they are still around after your bet). Best scenario would have been you being heads up with VLP or you might have won the pot by then.
Sorry but I would have played it this way no matter what you say, teacher ;).
Hero WILSFM,
I should have capped pre flop. This guys limp reraise could mean anything. But a pre flop cap would probably lose one blind and maybe a limper on a good day (since they were already in for two bets), and this was not a good day. So forget about a cap getting it head up.
BTW, you seem to have "bet", "raise" and "reraise" down cold. You might be right here but we still need more work on "check" and "fold" :-).
Regards,
Rick
Sorry, I just had to get that out of my system. Guess I'll have to wait for PF to tell me what WILSFM means. But ist sure is fun to watch the tables turn.
The hand: Cap it with JJ? I'd be more likely to fold it. Once the flop comes with 5 players (or whatever) you're dead. Let it go. I think you played it as well as you could.
If I had to guess, ELP reraised with a small pair. Did he spike a set on the flop or the turn?
Brett,
Am I hearing you right? You would fold JJ for one more bet before the flop against a live player who limp reraised from late position?
Anyway, I'll be posting the results below in an hour or so.
Regards,
Rick
No, I wouldn't fold it, but I sure wouldn't cap it either. I prefer folding to capping.
1) Very unlikely Rick's going to get things head up by capping. Players are much more likely to put in two more bets after already putting in two than when they've only put in one.
2) Flop was disastrous for Rick. Early players' checks do not mean they don't have A or K or 2 hearts, but rather that they expect either capper or Rick to bet. None of them have A-K, so they don't want to be raised. I don't think there's any way betting either on the flop or the turn can win the pot for Rick. I'd also have taken the free card hoping for the jack of diamonds (which still might be a disastrous card).
I just don't think there's anywhere to go with this hand. While I agree with those who would argue that now is not the time to save bets, do whatever you can to win the hand, there just doesn't look like there's any way Rick can win it.
Dear Hero and Rick re: Post Flop Play. I recall, about a month ago, on a Saturday afternoon, at HPC 20/40, Hero raised before the flop. Hero was on button or cutoff with JJ. One of the blinds reraised. Flop came A, and two rags. Checked to Hero, who checked!
Gabe,
If so, proud of her. Checking after showing early round aggression has not been fully discussed yet :-). Anyway, was an ace in the big blind trying to trap her? Or did she wait for the turn to raise?
Regards,
Rick
Gabe,
Even for me, blinds re-raising are very scary. I will check all the way and hope I win the showdown. So can you refresh me what happened?
It would also be nice if I know who you are personally so you won't be too much of a mystery to me and to Rick ;).
Well, actually after she checked the flop, she called $80 on the turn.
As for the rest of the hand, I don't remember exactly. Let's see what I can remember.
For some reason, I decided to try this trolling for limpers thing, that a lot of people recommend. In other words, I limp early with 77. I pick up one or two limpers, but Hero raises on button or cutoff. Maybe we get another caller, then blind reraises. (Now I hate myself for trying this early limping thing.) Well maybe I'm not getting quite enough to call for the set, but it's close. The guy who reraised has been raising with all kinds of crap (any two Ten or higher, pocket pairs). I think maybe I can use is guy for leverage depending on the flop. At least this how I later rationalized my call. I think Hero may have reraised here. (Why didn't I take this possibility into consideration before I called)? About 4 or 5 of us take the flop.
Flop comes A, rag, rag. IT GETS CHECKED AROUND! Nobody looks like they're slow playing a monster. They're all looking straight out at each other, at the flop, eyes open wide.
The turn brings another rag. The board is very uncoordinated, except for the Ace there's no card higher than a 9. There may have been a draw possible, but not an obvious one. The blind (loose cannon pre flop reraiser) bets. I have the strong felling that he really did not want to, I mean really didn't want to, not acting. I reraise. Loose cannon preflop reraiser folds, out of turn, and exposes AQo!!!!. Hero calls two bets.
Don't remember what the river was. It gets checked around. Hero wins with JJ.
For weeks I've tried to rationalize why I played this hand like this. I know now, in the clear light of day, the reason I made those pre flop calls, was because Hero hypnotized me. The reason nobody bet the flop is because Hero hypnotized them The reason I reaised the turn was because Hero hypnotized me. And, of course, the reason the loose guy folded AQ, was because Hero hypnotized him. If Hero teaches Rick to hypnotize people, Rick could play Kxs UTG.
Gabe
Gabe,
Great post! My friend Greg and I were ROTFLOL. Unfortunately, I don't have the natural talent for hypnosis that Hero has, and without the talent, it would be a waste of time for her to teach me. So my worse suited king UTG will probably remain king-jack in most games. In the meantime, Hero obviously has me in her spell, and hypnotism wasn't involved : -).
Regards,
Rick
hard to hang tough and pony up 2 big bets with overcards staring you in the face; moreover, VLP played the hand as if he held AKsuited.
what did VLP like to raise with? did he always raise with A-paint? if so, I'd have put him on a medium pair (until he raised the turn), and, since the other pre-flop calls came from the blinds, and with 12 small bets in the pot, perhaps a bet on the flop was warranted. unless VLP's reraise told you otherwise, your JJ figured to be best on the flop roughly 25% of the time with that board and against 3 opponents.
rewinding the tape, let's say you decide to bet the flop:
a) you should fold to a checkraise
b) you should check the turn if two or three players call your flop bet and check to you on the turn
c) you probably should check the turn if only one player calls your flop bet
d) you MUST claim the pot if all three fold!
Mark,
Note that I had five opponents since the blinds and limpers called pre flop.
VLP was new to me but from the time he sat done it appeared he was a live wire so he was hard to put on a hand. He had just beaten me on a one-outer (yes, there is such a thing) on a hand he had no business playing. I do think I should have capped pre flop and put some pressure on the blinds and limpers.
Regards,
Rick
I miscounted. since you had 5 opponents and not 3, you have to assume at least one player connected with either the king or ace. therefore checking for the free look at the turn was logical.
But then what do you do when you check the turn and one of your opponents invariably bets the river? I would guess you "have" to call, which means you've invested 1.5 BB's. If your opponents are capable of mucking a K here I would probably bet, but if they're not I wouldn't hesitate to check.
I would have played it exactly the way rick did...
The VLP didnt LR before.. mmm even if he can have a lot of hands... odds are good he has at least a king or a ace.
The odds that the other players with fold if they hold an ace are very low...
Well i think its a rare case when u raised pre flop and say next hand please on the flop..
Charlie
As you know, Rick, my 15/30 experience is pretty much about zero, but I just can't imagine how you could be ahead at this point against 3 limpers including the VLP and two blinds. I just can't see the point in pushing this horrible flop. Be happy to take the free card, unless your image is SO strong that someone with a weak Ace, or KQ, would lay it down to one bet. And in LL, that's virtually impossible. I can't say for sure how the mid-limit crowd would react.
You have about 1 decent 'out' on the turn, the Jd, and even then you might still be in trouble. You are in one measly BB on this hand. No big deal for a player of your talent to overcome, right?
IMHO the only error is not betting the flop.
There are many reasons to bet raise or fold in each instance, with this many players and that large a pot preflop, i think an information bet on the flop is absolutely neccessary to also try and thin the field/ buy a free ride to the river, etc. If check-raised on the flop i would feel confident i was chasing and muck.
Since that did not happen you must fold to 2bb's staring at AKxx on board with ppJ.
Unfortunately the range of hands VLP could have is quite large (more so if he could be classified as maniac at times, or did he make a limp reraise for information on YOUR hand?)
I would guess this being 15-30 at HP the VLP either had a hand such as JQ/QT/JT suited giving him a four flush/gutshot, or a monster set.
Hope your fold was "results" wise correct, enjoy all the posts here...
-Ray
Sometimes a player with good instincts has the cards go bad. But he should remember all those thin value bets he correctly made when others with less experience would not have. He should remember that time he put someone on a free card buy and bet into her with nothing and was right; others less studious may not have. He should remember that time he folded a hand a newer player couldn't and saved himself a load of bets. He should remember that he lived by the sword and must sometimes get cut by it.
So when another nice hand comes along and gets clobbered by the flop and he makes a decision that others may not see or they see different, its probably right. Even if it isn't it doesn't matter. When it's your fastball that got you to the world series and you throw it just right but they hit it anyway...
And this same player should also remember all the times he helped others on this forum when they were in a spin and what did he tell them?
Regards.
R
Huh? I don't know... I think you played it just about the only way you can play it.
Betting the flop is okay if you are doing it as a cheap way to see two cards i.e. you expect a few guys to call and then check to you again on the turn at which point you can check and hope a Hook comes down. But about 19 out of 20 times, some guy is going to checkraise you on the flop.
The bet may make more sense if the flop was A75 or something where it is possible that no one has an Ace. But with an AKx flop and 2 hearts, chances are you will be raised on the flop if you bet.
No fear here buddy...just common sense.
Since you say they won't fold a pair I wouldn't bet. If I thought they'd fold a weak Ace or a King I'd bet the flop and sometimes the turn if no flop check-raise.
Hero had the advantage of knowing the grim results for this hand so her analysis may be tainted. That being said, there is no way she would have lost this pot, as she would have capped BTF and bet the flop. Hero has almost no fear (Vince Lepore is her hero with his “Make Fear Your Friend” mantra!), although some day a little bit of properly applied fear should improve her game.
I do think a cap BTF is the right play in that it only costs one more bet and does put pressure on the blinds and early limpers. I must admit that the limp reraise had me confused and confusion led to the tentative play. But Hero is wrong to think that it would get me head up, although it may get a limper or blind out.
Although I got a terrible flop, I do think it may be worth a bet. Yes I will get checkraised quite often, OTOH, my opponents should fear that I have something such as AQ, which means they have to connect with the flop fairly well for this play. The other benefit of betting is that I may be able to narrow it down to one or two opponents. If so, I won't get squeezed off the hand that easily.
As for results, on the turn the early limper called the VLP's raise and called again on the river when another offsuit baby came and the VLP bet. The early limper had two black eights and wins. VLP threw his hand away without showing.
I probably should have elaborated on just how bizarre the VLP was (based on another hand), but it would just amount to a bad beat story.
Regards,
Rick
With three limpers already, and the button and blinds to come, I don't think JJ is going to win without improvement, so just call BTF. Then it's very easy to release when the flop comes AK3.
Given that you raised and were reraised, I think it's now right to cap, hoping to play against one or two opponents and win without improvement.
On the flop, the field checks to you, expecting you to bet, but:
1) You're probably behind, 2) You're not going to win it here with a bet, 3) If I was in early position and hit the flop here, I'd check to you intending to raise.
so I think your check was correct.
On the turn, you still have nothing, so yes, it's a mistake to call two cold. Clear fold.
Now I'll look at the results...
Mel,
Here are a few BTF comments. I can see not raising out of the big blind with about five opponnents and JJ (or QQ and TT) since it won't narrow the field and makes the hand a little easier to play. But the cutoff seat merits aggression with a good hand of this type. You do want to "buy the button" and charge the blinds to play. Had the VLP initially raised, I would reraise, and I would be the initial raiser versus any number of opponents from this spot.
OTOH, if a solid UTG raises and you get many cold callers, then I would probably call.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
I agree with everything you say, except that your BTF raise is likely to limit the field to exactly three or four opponents, which according to HPFAP is the number you don't want to play JJ against.
The point about buying the button is well made, and it's true you will have good position over your 3-4 opponents. I guess the question is whether you believe this is enough to compensate for the 'wrong' number of opponents and make it worth raising here.
Mel,
I may have worded things poorly. In the cutoff seat I make an initial raise, no matter how many opponents I have. I would also reraise an initial raiser close to my right (again, no matter how many opponents). In both cases I may buy the button and drop a blind or two and gain control of the hand. In the case of the late reraise I may drop an early limper. But I would often just call an UTG raiser who had several cold callers. Now it is more likely I am up against an overpair so wait and see is probably the preferred play.
In the blinds I am never able to narrow the field. I think it is best to raise six of more opponents, which adds value when you flop a set, or three of less since you should have the best hand. But against a medium number of opponents (four or five) it may be best to call so your opponents are easier to push around post flop, and you can get away from your hand when you flop poorly, since you won't be pot tied.
Regards,
Rick
I sent this as an email to Rick before the results and he asked me why I didn't post it and I sent an email back that it was basically for selfish reasons. I decided that being selfish is uncool since there are so many posters I get a lot out of what they post I decided my selfish reasons are uncool. So here it is for whatever it is worth.
______________________________________________________
When the flop is two suited I like to know which cards are suited. In this case if the Ace is not a heart a player could have top pair and a nut flush draw. Even with a weak kicker this is decent hand, just the kind of speculative hand VLP might 3 bet with after calling.
Pre-flop the VLP re-raise is screwy and from my experience is done to build a big pot and does not mean that he has a big hand. If this player had a big pair why not raise before the flop being so close to the cut off and the button?
The advantage to betting the flop in my mind is to thin the field and maybe win the pot although it seems highly unlikely. What seems screwy to me is why would a player who three bet pre-flop, got a flop that looks favorable to anybody who 3 bet, checks on the flop with a two flush and two to a gut shot straight? Seems to be one of three things:
He is slowplaying a big set.
He is waiting for the turn to try and thin the field with a pair of Aces.
He can’t beat a pair of Aces or Kings.
Combine this with his play on the turn. Situations 1 and 2 are consistent with this possibility. I would say that 2 is not that likely. Now if VLP can’t beat Aces or Kings he is raising as a semi-bluff or because he thinks the original bettor is weak and he thinks he has him beat. Also his re-raise pre-flop marks his hand as speculative in my mind. Therefore I would conclude that there is a decent chance you have VLP beat. What about the guy who bet the turn? Well if he doesn’t have you beat he is pushing a flush draw. A gutty play would be to re-raise trying to knock out the original turn bettor and everyone else left except the VLP. I’m pretty convinced you have the VLP player beat because he played this hand so screwy. Probably wrong though and I can analyze this away from the table but in the heat of battle after being on a loosing streak I get conservative as well. I will say this about losing streaks and how you play. I try to tighten up but when I play I still play as aggressive as possible (I have to force myself to do it) because I want to win all the money I'm entitled to and it helps offset the losses if this makes any sense.
Tom
Typical 15/30 at Bellagio,im on button with AcQd ,unusual event of 3 players posting, one in middle position,two in late and cutoff,2 others limp,normally I'd limp but with the poster's I decide to gamble and raise.The bb and everyone else calls and 7 of us see the flop of A,K,10, with 2 hearts1 spade.Everyone checks to me and I bet and am called in 5 spots including 2of the 3 posters,turns a 9 of spades,everyone checks to me and I checked.Should I have bet and if so why?
you should have bet. If someone had a straight or two pair they would have bet out with that many people still in the hand, making those with a draw have to pay for the river. You had top pair with a good kicker and a straight draw-you should have bet.
because AK = 2 pair
Bet. You've got top pair and a big kicker. If you're behind, you've got outs. There are lots of hands the others can have that you can beat.
Lets say u have ATs in the big blind
UTg (u dunno him) raise and got 2 cold callers (1 unknown the other is weak).
Do you call or fold?
Now suppose u called and the flop is T 7 3 rainbow.
What do you do?
If u bet and get raised by UTG, what do u do?
ty for help
Call the pre-flop raise,Bet out on the flop and hope UTG raises to clear the rest of the field.Call his raise then check call other streets unless you hit an A or T, then you may bet out or check raise.
This is the stock answer. Other variables may come into play as the hand develops.
I will try, but i'm no expert.
>Lets say u have ATs in the big blind >UTg (u dunno him) raise and got 2 cold callers (1 >unknown the other is weak). >Do you call or fold?
I Call.
>Now suppose u called and the flop is T 7 3 rainbow.
>What do you do?
Come out Betting.
>If u bet and get raised by UTG, what do u do?
Reraise him, especially if other 2 drop. Then, bet on the turn unless a KJQ hit. My first tough decision is on the turn if(when I bet) he raises me again even if no overcard comes..then he probably has JJ, QQ, KK, AA. Then i might fold. I might call, check-call though if KQJ don't fall. If he just calls my turn bet then I think he has AK.
I've often found it confusing against an UTG raise with something like A-10 or AJ suited. However, a situation like yours really depends on how you perceive UTG. Is he rock solid? Is he a loose-goose? A fish? If he is rock solid, then why take a chance and play with if you have a feeling that you are drawing? Save your money. A loose goose or a fish is a different story entirely....
Now for your situation...
Before the flop, I would call. You have a strong hand here and have pre-flop odds to call another small bet.
On the flop, I would bet out.
If UTG raises and everyone folds, I would 3-bet and if he raises again, I would just call.
On the turn, if you don't improve, just check call. If he has an overpair, he will bet for sure. If he has AK, he will most likely check and take the free card fearing that you will call him down, thus you know your top pair is good.
If a KQJ comes down on the turn, I would fold.
If UTG bets out on the turn, here is where you must determine what kind of player UTG is. Unfortunately, there is no right answer here...
Hope this helps...
Just my two-bits...
The Fish
If I don't know the UTG player I would put him on a small range of hands: A's, K's, Q's, J's T's, AK, or AQ. Before the flop you are dominated on ALL of these hands, so I would fold. However, if I called the flop I would take the following into account:
| Hand | Combinations |
| A-A | 3 |
| K-K | 6 |
| Q-Q | 6 |
| J-J | 6 |
| T-T | 3 |
| A-K | 12 |
| A-Q | 12 |
Derrick
I have to agree with your analysis.
I also tought that folding right on the flop was my best option. i dont think callin (i did) was EV+ and i should have folded.
As a matter of fact he had KK and i called him down all way long losin 4 big bets instead of 0,5 :o(((
ty for help
Charlie
How many of you wear sunglasses when playing? I have on a few rare occasions, and usually take them off after a few minutes. I have a hard time seeing with them on, but I do like to be able to look at people, without them knowing I'm looking at them. My impression of people wearing sunglasses is that they are generally weak players, trying to keep their tells to a minimum.
1) What are your impressions of a player wearing sunglasses?
2) If you wear them, why? Do you feel it gives you an edge?
"My futures so bright, I hafta wear shades"
;-)
I'm gonna get some...I'm probably gonna have to get prescription glasses or contacts as at my old age of 22, the computers are messing my eyes up...and i can't stand to think about putting things in my eye..so uh...sunglasses look cooler how about that :)
There are times when indoors is just too dark. And the light-sensitive photo lenses wear out. So if you want a pair a prescrip suns (I like mine alot) You really will want to have a non-tinted pair around.
Best,
Zooey
Anybody who wears sunglasses in-doors is a dork and looks stupid. If you need to wear sunglasses to be a winning player you need to examine your game and not what you are wearing.
LOL@BigRod..."but it helps with the glare" lol...nah but if i have to but scription glasses i'm getting sunglasses :)
I wear them routinely. It helps a lot.
William
Malik,
If shades bother you indoors, you might try wearing them on your head, and dropping them down when you're in a hand. In fact, I only put mine on when I'm in with 2 or 3 particular players who I know read tells well. You may not have that luxury, though; I play in a game full of regulars.
Regards
That's a good suggestion, but it would seem to say out loud, "I am vulnerable...come and get me!". Still a good suggestion though 
Hey guys...
I am curious if someone could maybe give some examples how 15-30 games could/do differ from 30-60...particularly at Bellagio if someone wouldn't mind...I don't play for a living, just using extra money to play and every now and then I feel like jumping into 30-60 with $1K-$2K and giving it a shot...
Also, as far as Bellagio or vegas in general...is there one time of week/day that is better than others? I played every day last week and saw the same 20 people or so at the same 2 or 3 15-30 tables and was just wondering do you all pick on the 1 or 2 people who don't play much, or just hope to beat eachother? Or does everyone mostly just pass the money around?
Thanks for any insight....I know "Abdul Jalib" posted something that discussed the different limits in RGP a while ago but can't seem to find it.
10-20 online HE...im in the bb with 42o. 4 limpers flop comes 2 4 5 with 2 hearts. Sb checks I bet, 3 callers. Turn is Qd. Sb bets out. Should I raise trying to drive some hands out, or just call? I fear the bb has Qx, making him two pair but like a coward I call. River As. Checked around results to come Question is should I have raised the turn? Do I have the best hand?
You may have had the best hand on the turn, but there are dangerous draws, plus A3 or 36 you are already beat and hoping for a 2 or a 4 on the river...I'd raise the turn and see whats up :) Maybe if he has 2 pair here he thinks you have the straight...
Since the sb should be eager to bet any queen in this spot, I wouldn't be too afraid of him having a better hand, especially since (1) you wouldn't need much of a hand to bet the flop; (2) you have 2 of the nine cards he'd need for two pair; and (3) Qxo isn't a common sb completing hand in 10-20; (4) it looks like he doesn't mind players folding, and might also be semibluffing.
well it turns out guys that he was bluffing straight out w/ KJs and i took down the pot. By raising the turn, however, I might have netted an extra bet. Thanks for the input!
Most of the time you will have the best hand. You don't want someone with a bare five spiking on you.
Derrick Ashworth
Your question first. Raising the turn is the better play. I wouldn't worry too much about a better two pair; not many players will call the half bet with Q-little, unless it's suited. More likely a QT, Q9, something along those lines. So raise and charge the SB's 5 out drawing hand.
Did you consider check raising the flop? You have a very strong holding here, and if you're in a game in which the last player often bets at a flop when it's checked around (as is likely here), you could get in some extra bets.
Bill
Playing in a wild 20-40 half kill game last Saturday I had A3 of diamonds in late position. This was a kill pot. The flop came J 8 6 two diamonds. There was a bet in relatively late position and one caller. I raised and the field folded. I raised in an attempt to make my ace good should it hit.
The turn was the 4 of diamonds. A very aggressive player is the only other player in the hand and he checks. I check...thinking that if he has me on diamonds I wont get paid off and if he has two pair or a set he would have bet it out to begin with. The river pairs the board with a 6. He bets out and I raise. He calls and I take the pot down.
What I am wondering is what do the readers think of the check on the turn?
Bet on the turn... he will probably call. Bet on the river... he will probably call. Same result.
Derrick
Matt,
I agree with Derrick's point. Also, how wild was this guy? might he try to checkraise you on the turn? If so, you'd get 3 or maybe 4 (if he has anything and calls on the end) bets as opposed to 2. But, you had the other player to consider, as he could've represented some profit, too. When the pot's big, I guess I figure most players will chase pretty far, so I lean toward betting. By the way, was that game in Davenport? If so, I've heard before how wild/good it is.
Good Post.
Yes, the game was in Davenport. That is the only 20-40 game in Iowa that plays regularly. It is a very wild game. The player that I raised on the river is an aggressive professional player. Not a crazy player...but very aggressive.
You just induced a bluff from the aggressive player. Good play.
Bill
i did sort of the same thing the other day, i had A6 of spades and the flop came 2 spades. The player to my right bet, I rased got one colour and he reraised. The spades came on the turn and he bet out and i called. on the river he checked and i bet, he raised me and i reraised him, he reraised me so i raised him again and he called, he had it to the K.
I haven't read all of the responses but one reason to bet other than the obvious is he may also have a flush and you may get 4 bets out of him instead of 1 or 2.
Matt,
Aggressive player? He didn't raise preflop, and bets here, then calls your flop raise. (BTW, what happened to the 3rd player?) this sounds a lot like a flush draw to me. He probably 3 bets or at least calls down with top pair, so you win the same.
The river can ruin your plan. If the 4th of the flush suit or a pair shows up, you will not get much action from a smaller flush. This is a disaster.
I think you need to play the hand fast after you make it...I suspect your opponent had a smaller flush:
His possible hands, including the lack or preflopraise, are - top pair, flush draw, straight draw. Does he bet on the river with top pair questionable kicker? Mmmaybe, but unlikely. Does he do this with a busted straight? yes, but he doesn't call the raise.
He probably 3 bets the flop with JK or better-I would most of the time.
So I am pretty convinced he has a smaller flush, and you cost yourself at least 2 big bets - he is looking to check-raise the turn. Where you should 3 bet, and he calls down, or even raises more.
Good luck.
Dan Z.
Check on the turn is perfect based on the player you described. You did fine.
Sorry, but I'm still confused!
"To answer, your question, if I am in the big blind with a hand like QJs against a legitimat raise, I generally want three other players. If one of my opponents plays awful, it might be okay to go with two"
Question (1) Definition of 3 other players:
(a) The raiser + 3 callers (excluding you in the BB) for a total of 4 when it gets to the BB
(b) The raiser + 2 callers (excluding you in the BB) for a total of 3 when it gets to the BB
Question (2) When you say "other players" does this include the raiser?
"If I'm in the small blind and I have QJs and there is a legitimate raise, I want at least one additional player"
Question (3) Now are you saying you want:
(a) one additional player to what you would want if you were in the BB? Example if you must have 3 opponents in the BB then you must have 4 to play the same hand in SB, right?
(b) Are you saying just two opponents (the raiser + 1 cold caller; not counting the BB)
(c) Are you saying a raiser (you in the SB) + an expected call from the BB - Would this be considered one additional player.
Sorry about all these questions - I realize it is so simple to you - but NOT to me and a few others.
Thanks for your time and advice - it is appreciated!
When I say you need three players that includes the raiser. Thus if you call there will now be a total of four players (including yourself) in the pot.
Greetings here are few 10/20 hands where I pushed things a bit w/small pairs.
One player opens early w/a raise I have 33 and am directly behind him, I look to the left and see 3 who seems to be calling and the blinds call alot. Unfortunatley my judgement is off and only the BB calls.
The flop comes 77 4 rainbow. Check ,raiser bets.
I raised, as I figured there was a very good chance I have the best hand, blind folds raiser 3 bets I just call (would anyone fold here, this player was not playing many hands and I thought even if he had pair there was a decent chance he would cave in if I raised the turn).
The turn was 5 giving me a gutshot also.
He bets and I raise, he call after some thought.
The river blanked off he checked and as I went to bet he put his chips before I could. I said check.
Is this going too far!?
ANother:
1 limper next raises early once again I have small pair (5h5c) I look and see 2 preparing to call (in this game cold calling also encouraged more coldcalling), my judgement was better as we got 6 way action.
The flop comes 3 4 7 w/two hearts. ALl check to the raiser, who bets next folds I raise next player cold calls all fold to the raiser who 3 bets. I just call as does the cold caller.
3 see the turn of...
Th,
preflop raiser bets again, convinced I didn't have the best hand, and I could be drawning dead in light of hte cold caller on the flop. I folded. next calls.
River another heart , bet fold.
All comments welcome. Results later.
I have to say its amazing the transition you've made in only about a year to so.
I remember the grand old days when you flopped top pair of Kings holding KQ in the BB but were pushed off it on the flop 3 handed because you feared the great superstar E.P. hand a better kicker. And I do remember that one time you folded pocket kings when against 10's although I can hardly fault you as you were victim to an "expert play" by an expert player. ...
But now you're raising gutshots on the turn he he I love it.
Ok not to bust your balls to much here I have thought about the play of small pairs like this myself. Your justification for calling the raise cold with a small pair is that if you get mulitway action which you described as 4-5 players you feel you have odds. And I agree that a pocket pair plays well 5 handed. BUT don't you destroy, or at least diminish, your implied odds but calling a raise. Its like your putting in 2 SB's with a hand that 7/8 times on the flop your going to have to fold.
Also in my experience in these smail pair situations heads up against a raiser. You may be right that your 3's are good and that you have the raiser beat. So your expecting to win the hand on the flop or turn. OK but if the raiser is going to fold his AK, AQ, AJs or whatever then you actually didn't need to have a pair of 3's Wouldn't it make more sense to play a different hand that you could still semibluff with yet might be able to make a big pair and get paid off or a flush or straight or something. Just a thought.
What can be said? You played both hands no differently than most maniacs. Expect monster swings and long term losses from this kind of play.
You made a mess. Your position stinks, and you are likely against a premium hand. You are also in terrible postion as the bets will come right in front of you -
you won't be able to build a huge pot with a set. if you miss, you have to fold, and there WILL be a bet on the flop, so you can't get a free turn.
there could also be a 3 bet preflop behind you, ruining your thin hopes of getting your odds.
This is another situation where you hope your play is boderline correct, but it could turn out to be quite wrong. this makes your overall expectation negative.
Good luck.
Dan Z.
No position
Risk of a reraise
marginal hand anyway
Easy decision
The 3s was an easy fold pre-flop, but post flop I think you played it well.
The 5s was not that bad of play. I would have folded them, but I think many people would play them here. Good fold on the turn.
1) He had A's.
2) Also A's w/o A of hearts!
In the games a reraise was very unlikely, and does everyone really think both of thesse are clear folds if one knew they would get 5 way action or better?
Another thing to note is even if I am against a "premium hand" I am favorite against most of these premium hands.
FInaly I was kind of dissapointed as most seemed to comment on ly on preflop play, and not on the play on the later streets.
If you are sure of receving 5-way action, even smaller pocket pairs can get in there for 2 bets. But I'd be willing to bet you are either overrating your ability to read a situation, or are simply employing wishful thinking and convincing yourself you have an excuse to play. Until you develop a more realistic approach, this should prove very costly for you in the long run. Unless you are playing with a bunch a total weakies, you can rarely be sure of what 8 other players are planning to do. Furthermore, you place yourslef in potentially terrible situations as when it gets 3-bet and you're short handed.
When you do play these small pairs, one of the keys to playing them profitably is being able to dump on all but the most favorable flops. You not only are compounding your errors by continuing with the hand, but then are costing yourself even more money by raising and taking far too much the worst of it! You need to understand that even though you might have the raiser beat, it's almost certain you don't have the best hand against the field, you are out of position, and it can come back to you at 3 bets!
In short, you are playing very poorly in these spots. To the point where your better opponents gotta be loving it!
You have AsJs in the cutoff in a looseish 10-20 game. Two limpers to you. You raise. Both blinds and limpers call. $100 in pot.
Flop comes: 2s6c10h. Check to you. Question 1: bet or check?
What if the flop is 2h9s10h? I am trying to get a sense of how broken or raggedy the board should be to justify a bet when you miss.
Assume the flop is 2s6c10h, and you bet. Three callers. Turn is the Qs. Checked to you again. Question 2: bet? What if the turn is Qd?
Assume you bet your nut str8/nut flush draw and get two callers. River is another 2. Checked to you. Question 3: Would you bet again? What if it's heads up here?
Thanks.
SW
I would bet in this situation if I thought it would get a free card on the expensive street.
>Flop comes: 2s6c10h. Check to you. Question 1: bet or check?
Against two opponents, always bet.
>What if the flop is 2h9s10h? I am trying to get a sense of how broken or raggedy the board should be to justify a bet when you miss.
Against 2 opponents, always bet.
>Assume the flop is 2s6c10h, and you bet. Three callers. Turn is the Qs. Checked to you again. Question 2: bet? What if the turn is Qd?
If the turn is the Qs, always bet. If the turn is the Qd, only bet if 1 called.
>Assume you bet your nut str8/nut flush draw and get two callers. River is another 2. Checked to you. Question 3: Would you bet again? What if it's heads up here?
I would normally check. Unless you are playing against some really weak players.
SW,
The advice given in the previous post is not bad, but I don't believe it is possible to correctly answer with the information you've given.
Whether to bet in late position against two opponents when the flop misses you depends on how likely it is that your opponents are going to call you.
Bob J.
Bob is right! How is your image at the table? What is your impression of your opponents. If the opponents are weak or strong (not average calling stations) and your image is tight but not too aggressive, a bet should win often enough to make it profitable. If you are viewed as very aggressive though, I don't think a bet will help.
nt
I like to put the hammer down with A high in this situation (last position, raised a limper or two). The only time I wouldn't bet is on the river if I had more than one opponent, and even then I would bet if I saw a single sad grimace at the river card.
I know this is pretty hyper, and I back off if someone starts to make me pay for it, but if you don't play many hands, the times you look silly make you a couple of extra bets when you have the big pair and you get called all the way by top and second pair.
It definitely depends almost entirely on the people in the hand, just thought I would add a dissenting opinion.
Best,
Zooey
Say that you have Ax suited and you get two of youre colours on the flop. It gets 3 bet on the flop and its caped on the turn and its to you
Does it ever get too expensive to chase a flush? And you know that one person is on the same draw as well?
Sure. If your players are sane, there must be a set in there killing another two of your outs.
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
Ljubljana, Slovenia
Just look at the pot odds. Some adjustment should be made for the possible dead outs buts thats usually true on draws anyway. Just knock out somewhere between 1-4 outs on the hand and then look at the pot odds. Remember here, that your implied odds are going to be good because a set may have to put something in on the river and so too will the other flush if its there. Its likely you will make two or three big bets on the river when you connect.
Regards.
If there's a pair on the board, fold. If not, it's a pot odds question, which is to say, it depends. But if it's capped 5-way or something, then you probably have odds to call, especially since you'll pick up several big bets on the end.
If it's capped with two other players, then you're trapped in the middle and paying off anyway.
High variance, though.
- target
10-20 online HE
I get dealt QQ on the button w/5 limpers to me. I limp too, as I believe I would be beat with an Ace or a King on the flop. Would anyone limp with me here, or would everyone raise? This is a pretty loose game btw..
Raise. You have by far the best of it right now. Get more money in while you're ahead.
If an A or K comes, and there's any heat, so be it. But a high percentage of the money that goes into the pot before the flop is yours, so make ther there's a lot of it.
- target
I can understand your hesitance to raise because this hand will lose more than it will win but overall it is a winning hand therefore, you want to get as much money in the pot as possible.
Besides, by raising you will likely be checked to on the flop so if an A or K hits you may decide to check and get a free turn card. Or you may want to bet and then check the turn and hope to hit a Q on the river.
Either way raising before the flop is a long term +ev play.
Raise. Its the possibility of an A or K on the flop that _makes you the money_!
Think about it.
* Gross Oversimplication for illustration *
1 - (42/50)(41/49)(40/48) = 41%
No A or K you win 5 extra bets.
59% A or K... you lose one extra bet.
.41 * 5 + .59*(-1) = 1.5 Small Bets in profit! This represents a huge chunk of your hourly take!
Yes, you could wait until the flop, too see if no A or K comes, but that $15 is forever forfeit.
And what about the times no one has a matching A or K? Or the flop comes AQ7? And yes, there's no guarentee that the Q's will hold with no overcards. A simulutation would have to be run to be sure, but I think I'm in the right ballpark.
Best,
Zooey
Actually the hand can be played either way. Often times when you don't raise before the flop you will now be able to raise a bettor on the flop once you see no A or K. If you make the pot too big it will become correct for all the bottom and middle pairs to come along for the ride. This of course reduces your chance of winning the pot. Another advantage is that you disguise your hand- of course this is not important if people arent paying attention anyway but if they are this can be to your benefit. Another time that calling would be better is when you are on a short bankroll and want to try to win pots more then maximize bets earned. I'm not saying that calling is better here (I think raising is usually better) but you are wrong when you say that it isn't even close.
With that many people in a 10/20 HE game, Im thinking a lot of A/K's are playing. I want to raise, to try and thin out the drawing hands. JTs will call with 5 people in a loose game, but lets see him try to call with a raise (or better yet) or an AK raising you.
I agree that you should raise but not because of the reasons stated in your post. He is on the botton so he is not going to get anyone out of the hand except for maybe the blinds. If the BB has a hand like 10-J he will call the raise with this many people in the hand.
If you are chicken with your good hands what do you do with bad ones? Raise. Every time. Make them pay to draw when you are in the lead. That is probably the first principle of poker.
Raise..always raise. You have the best of it right now. Get some money in that pot! Would you want me sitting in the BB with K2 and taking a free flop with you? If you raise, I'll fold. I have a friend who thinks this way and it drives me bonkers. RAISE!
I'm sure this has already been stated but this is a must raise situation. You likely have by far the best hand, and you have many opponents. You will win far more than your fair share of pots so you gain a large amount by raising preflop. Your pot equity preflop is huge, so the more money that goes in now the more money you will take out later.
Save the pot manipulation plays (if this is one) for medium pairs like TT or 99. Although in this situation, with this number of limpers I would still consider a raise.
Don Heftolo,
Somber Brotherhood
http://www.desetka.si/somber
Same 10-20 game, get dealt 55 in BB. UTG (very loose player limps) and sb limps.
Flop 5 Q 10 2 hearts. Check, check, bet...sb folds I raise utg calls. Turn is a 10. I bet out, he raises, I reraise, he calls. River a Q. I check and fold. Should I have folded here...i'm virtually 100% sure he got me beat. BTW, should I have reraised the turn, or waited for the river to repop him given a safe card?
I never check raise or slow play bottom set in any way. I would have bet out on the flop.
There's a reasonable chance that you folded a winner. If he had a queen, he'll often 3-bet the flop. If he had a ten, it's hard to believe that he wouldn't cap the turn. I would say that most of the time he'll have some kind of decent queen that he was waiting for the turn to raise with, but enough of the time he'll have a draw that you should have called on the end. After all, if he's got nothing of course he's going to bet the river after you check. I'm assuming a fairly aggressive player.
when he raised the turn I figured he had AQ, KQ, or a weak 10 since he did not reraise...do u guys think its a bad fold? im prettys ure he had me beat, but it could still be a bluff.
There are 10.5 big bets in the pot. Are you more than 91% certain you're beaten? If so, fold. If not, call.
It's hard to put him on AQ since most players raise with this hand before the flop. His play is slightly incongruous with holding a weaker queen because he waited until the board became somewhat scarier to go aggressive. As for a "weak" ten, there's no such thing in this situation.
The thing that would make me call on the end is that (1) you have a blind hand and he didn't have a raising hand before the flop, so he knows there's some chance your check-raise is a bluff or semi-bluff; and (2)he showed aggression on the round after you did and when the board became scarier, and then backed off. This play is completely inconsistent with a very strong hand, and sufficiently consistent with a counterbluff, especially by a weak player, that I'd call on the end.
Don't get me wrong: I think you were probably beaten on the end, but that the pot size made a call worthwhile. Which is the only thing that counts.
Agreed. The pot size is the issue.
Further, you have to consider the possibility that he bet the river with a naked Ace, figuring you would have bet your house if you had one. He could have had AJ, or Axs... who knows.
Just a tought...
You say your opponent is very loose and then you fold a boat...If your opponent had Ah Qh or Kh Qh or even any AQ or KQ hand, he might have played it exactly the same way. U just cant be over 90% sure he has you beaten. Do this kind of fold in a real game and expect some tricky moves by observant players...
Charlie
Given the 10.5-1 you're getting on the last bet, there's probably better than a 9% chance that he played some kind of monster draw like a K-Jh.
All hands you list would make a bigger full.
A9s
Last night, 5-10 loose passive at Turning Stone.
3 limpers, 55 in sb, flop come A53 rainbow.
Checked to 2nd limper who bets, 1 call, I call, BB and earliest limper fold. (I should have bet here, perhaps, but I wanted the turn check-raise.)
Turn is A. Great card. 2nd limper bets, call, I raise, call, and fold.
River is a *&^( 3. Board: A53A3. My tight no goot.
I check, she bets, and I call, "just to make sure people don't take shots at me in the future." I was SURE I was beat. I show my baby boat, and her cards unbelievably slide into the muck.
Moral:
1) I believe in not encouraging people to take shots at me. make your folds quietly, quickly, and unobtrusively, and not in high pressure, spotlighted situations.
2) Humans are great at estimating fractions like 1/2, 3/5 and the like, but we can't really "feel" 19/20. Heads up with a good hand, call a single river bet.
Best,
Zooey
what's so unbelievable about a semi-weak player playing TT or 88 this way? there's a strong chance that's what yellow boy was up against. a river fold here is a definite mistake.
Blew this 1 by reading too fast!!!
WEll still a call however!
You folded PRESTO with all those bets in the pot. Are you nuts? You showed major weakness by folding. This guy will bet into you everytime he has position on you and the board is scary. Could he have had a flush draw and an open ended straight draw or an over pair that he limped into the hand with? You bet he could! You need to call him down once in awhile on a scary board like this. Any respectable RPGer would have called him down on the river. If he hit a 4 outer, make him show it.
If I read the post correctly the final board is QQTT2. You hold 55, are you going to call? The only hand you can beat is 34. Maybe I read the post wrong, but if not I think your options on the river are to bet and fold to a raise, or to check and fold if your opponent bets. Am I missing something here?
Didn't see the flop correctly. I would now check call on the river, I suspect this is a fraction of a bet play, but you are right you have to call.
damn everyone thinks i should called him eh...maybe i will next time. i feel kinda dumb now with so many bets in the pot...thanx for ur help =(
Do the math. 3 bets preflop. 4 on the flop. 12 on the turn and 2 on the river. You are getting 21:2 on your call on the river. You need to be right 21/23 = 91.3% of the time to make this fold correct. Were you REALLY that sure?
Don't feel dumb. Millions of people play poker but only a handful have the guts to throw up a hand on a board like this and let anyone pick it apart. In the long run, who will develop faster? Who will have a chance against whom?
BTW, thanks. Your hand reminded me of a common mistake: when the river puts the second pair on board, early aggression will have made your hand look like a full house, although with a paired flop early aggression often means you have none of the flop.
Coincidentally, as I was writing this just now, the following hand came up on Paradise. I have KJo on the button, there is an utg limper, a very loose (and wannabe aggressive) in the cutoff, who just calls, and I call. The flop is 335, two-suited. Check to the loose guy on my right, he bets, I raise (not my normal play here), others fold. Turn is an offsuit 7. He bets, I call, because with any kind of hand he'd check-raise here. River is another 5, putting 33575 on board and me with KJ. He bets, I raise, he folds. (Hand # 59,600, 542).
10-20 online HE... I get dealt AA on button, 1 limper I raise, sb calls, limper calls. Flop comes K K 7. Checked to me I bet out. Only limper calls.
Turn is a blank. Checked to me. Should I bet out or check. I'm not sure whether he has a king or not, maybe a 7, but i dunno. He's a decent player so i probably should suspect a 7 here. But I bet and get checkraised and call the river and he shows KJo. My question is should I have bet the turn, or saved myself 2 bets and checked. In retrospect I think I should have checked...any comments?
He's a decent player so i probably should suspect a 7 here.
I don't get this at all. Decent players don't usually open limp with hands containing a seven. So it's more likely he has a king or a pocket pair. Or maybe he's drawing completely dead with a hand like AJ. If he has a king, you save two big bets by checking. If he has a pocket pair, you gave a free card to someone with two outs. Oh well. If he does have the pocket pair and doesn't improve on the river you'll most likely get him to bet or call a bet, so you're likely to make the same amount regardless.
A decent/good player is more likely to limp in with some sort of K than a 7, unless it's pocket 7's. That particular board has no draws so what can he call your flop bet with? When I am in the situation you were in I smell a rat. A lot of times I'll check the turn and call the river if bet into. Giving a free card on the turn is not likely to hurt you much. You're either way ahead (if he has a 7 or other pocket pair he only has 2 outs) or you're way behind (f he has a K you only have 2 outs).
What's likely to happen on the turn against a decent/good player is you bet and he folds, or you bet and he raises. Either way it doesn't do you much good. By checking on the turn he might bet/bluff the river with a weak hand and you make a bet you wouldn't have made if you had bet the turn. Or, he bets the river with a K and you only lose a single bet instead of 3. Either way you make the most or lose the least while keeping your risk down.
Against a weak calling station or bad player in general who'll call you down the whole way with a 7 or small pocket pair I'd keep betting it the whole way. No sense in letting up against this type of player.
I agree with the analysis of Vike. I used to keep betting with these types of hands and when you get check raised I felt obliged to call to the river. Now I will usually check the turn because there are very few cards that will help your opponent if you are still ahead. Obviously the board and your opponent has to be taken into account in each situation. If the flop was 2,2,7 I would be less concerned as it is less likely an early limper has a 2.
I like Vike's comments.
This situation seems very similar to the induce the bluff section ex in HFAP (or maybe Holdem Poker), if you are playing against a tough aggressive player.
Mainly for the reasons stated, if he has a K you save money by checking the turn, and if he doesn't there is a good chance he will bluff the river.
Checking is fine here because there aren't many cards that can concievably beat you. I think if you had pocket 10's or J's a bet would be more in order since there are now several free cards that could possibly beat you. Another benefit of checking is that you may make more money by inducing a bluff on the end if the guy doesn't have a K, or he may catch a pair and bet thinking it's the best hand, and finally there is no chance at all that you get check-raise-bluffed out of the hand. I think a check here is clearly the best option.
But you see guys, good players know that the pre-flop raiser will check on the turn with this board. They will frequently take a shot at him on cheap street and see if the weak-tight player will release the hand. They play this way whether they have the K or not getting the best of both worlds. Their betting patterns remain intact and are the same for both situations, putting pressure on the player to react.
same game, 10-20...UTG raises I call and bb calls. Flop 6 6 5 two hearts, I check blind bets utg calls I call. Turn is a 5. I check bb bets, UTG calls. Im not sure if bb has a boat, but UTG calling means he has a decent sized pocket pair or AK imo. should I call here??? Well being the tight bastard that I am i folded (Bash away) and river is K. checked around. UTG had pocket 10's, bb had crap...
Good fold IMO. There are 2 other people contesting the pot and you are playing the board + your Ace on the turn. I would assume at least one of them has something, AND you could be drawing dead.
Derrick
With hands like this out of position I think it's best to posture at some point early on so you can figure out where you are. Checking and calling is planless guessing.
Doesn't much matter when you do it. You could three-bet before the flop and bet out, or bet the flop, or check-raise the flop.
The other option, which I often do in these situations, is to not do any posturing, see the flop as cheaply as possible, and check and fold after missing.
You were stuck in between these general approaches. Not a good spot, IMO.
Tommy
If all of your hands are from online, then be advised that I'm clueless at that game.
I think the best course of action is dependent upon your read of the UTG raiser. If he's got tight raising standards, I usually fold. If less than tight, then I like to reraise preflop to take control of the hand and knock out the BB.
If you don't have a read on the UTG then it becomes tricky and you have several ways to play the hand preflop and postflop, like Tommy said. I think just calling preflop and then folding is the least preferable of these options, IMHO.
Jamie Collins
re-raise pre-flop is the only viable play. post flop either fold or show some aggression.
I would have 3 bet preflop to get out the BB. I probably would have folded the turn though..but it depends on the player...if UTG might play the same way with AQ or AJ or worse I would probably call him down.
Given your assumptions, at best you have 6 outs and the pot has 6.5 big bets. This would be just barely enough to justify a call on the turn if you had 6 certain outs.
Since you may have fewer outs, possibly 0 outs, and you may have to pay off at the end, you should definitely fold on the turn. In fact you could have folded on the flop unless one of your cards was a heart.
Why did you think that UTG had a pocket pair? Couldn't he have been on a flush draw?
Steve
Last night I played in the wildest, craziest 10-20 game I have ever seen. Multiple times it was capped before the flop (3 raise limit) with 7 to 8 people in the pot. Two hands to talk about.
First hand: I am trapped in with AQ off suit for a capped pot preflop with 7 players. $280 in pot.
The flop comes KKT. All check to a very weak player on the button. He bets. All call. $350 in pot now. I called here for the gut shot. I hope I have 4 outs which gives me more than enough outs to call.
The turn is a 3. All check to the button who bets and all call. $490 now in pot. Still calling hoping that a gutshot will come and that if it does that it will be good. Really begin to think I am gambling here but the pot is so huge.
The river comes J. I have the straight. I check and all check to the button who shows K3. I show my straight and take down the pot. The button just about dies. I am really shocked that anyone would call three bets cold with K3.
Second hand. I have QT diamonds in the big blind and am forced to call one additional bet to see the flop 8 handed. The flop comes KQ7 two diamonds. Small blind checks, I bet out and all call. The turn is a 3 of diamonds. Small blind bets out and I raise. All call. The river is a Q. Small blind bets out again and I and all others call. Small blind show 33 for 333QQ. I was pretty irritated at that one to say the least.
Over all for the night I flop 4 sets...all lost.
I made 3 flushed...all lost.
I flop open ended straight draws 7 times...none came.
It was NOT a good night to say that least.
I am curious, I know I am not the only one to have nights like this. But how does one handle the emotional end of knowing you had the best of it all night but still getting killed?
How did you win w/ AQ to a board of KKT3J when your opponent showed a K3 for the full house?
You are correct. The turn was a 2. I mistyped that.
IowaMatt,
You may have a typo in your post. If the board was KK103J and the button had K3 obviously your straight is beat.
Don't know if you're looking for comments about the hands but I think on the first hand the board being paired should be a consideration. Even in wild games, those are commonly held cards and your broadway may not be good if it hits as well as the ace possibly not being an out. If the board is K106 say, then I think it's a much easier call.
As far as your last question, when my big hands don't hold up in wild games I go in a funk for a couple of days so I am looking forward to comments.
Thanks,
Jamie Collins
He is a good friend of mine but always seems to knock me out at the end of the night.
-Aaron
(nt)
In wild games, you've gotta realize that you'll be cracked a bunch more than in tight games. As for how I deal with it, I just suck up my losses and take them like a man. In games like these it's not uncommon to take some HUGE losses if you get great starters and miss a bunch of flops - losses that can take many hours to recover. If you don't like the swings, don't play in these games - that's all there is to it. Mason's book discusses the tradeoffs between increased hourly rate and increased std. deviation in beautiful detail. You need to decide if it's worth it. In games filled with maniacs, my 10-20 hourly may be as much as 45 bucks, but my std deviation is gonna be through the roof - personally I don't like this as much as my normal games with a few calling stations and a couple of weak-tight folks, where I can make 30 bucks an hour and have a much lower std deviation. Even in these games, I take many more beats than I do when I go to Vegas, although my hourly may be slightly lower in 10-20. Remember, don't look for sympathy when you get beaten down - it just makes you look vulnerable to your present or future oppenents. You need to be unflappable - if you're truly getting the best of it, you'll win in the end.
Get 3-4 rational players to play in the same game with you. The sooner the better.
The optimum number of crazy people in a game ain't 8, nor even 5. When it approaches 8 the pots are so big that many of those wacky calls become correct. The more crazy people there are at a table, the better they're playing!
Yes, you have an edge and can win big. But for me, the financial and emotional variance isn't worth the high expectation, primarily due to poker aphorism #23:
#23: Variance is a 100 hour fact.
(It's actually longer, but the aphorism was coined before bigger numbers were discovered.)
Play with competent enemies. They'll slow down the game, and you'll have someone to throw up on when you get horrifically beat.
I spotted a glaring flaw in your time line.
According to my reference source, that I can't cite because it's all smoked up already, the word "aphorism" was coined AFTER bigger numbers were discovered.
:-)
Tommy
Nope, it was definitely a'phore bigger numbers.
I was the guy with the 33 in the small blind. I'd like the feedback because while I know I didn't have the best of it, I'd like some feel for just how bad the play was.
Called 1-1/2 bets in the small blind - 7 already in the hand. $160 in the pot.
Called 1 bet on the flop with 8 callers. (Last to act) $240
Turned bottom set and bet into a 3-flush on the board. I was focused in on the 3 and when it hit I honestly didn't realize it brought a flush in play until Matt raised - honest. Called the raise asking the Dealer to please pair the board.
Bet the bottom full house on the river.
Let me have it...
This is definitely the wildest this game have ever been.
I think I should say something about Mr. Clean's post. He is one of my best friends in the poker would and while I hated dropping that pot, I am not certain that I would have played the hand any differently had it been mine. It was a very strange game.
BTW, Mr. Clean did not come out unhurt in the game...the crazy game claimed him as a victim too.
heh
everyone has nights like that one man...
********** BAD BEAT STORY WARNING READ NO FURTHER IF YOU HATE WHINY SNOTS LIKE ME *********
my friend and i were both in an absolutly INSANE 10-20 last night with a 20-40 kill.
someone cranks a second straight pot so the kill is on, and im big blind. i get dealt a mighty AA both reds. it gets called by 3 players before the kill player and he raises his own kill. we have all been watching this dude tilt off almost $5k to this point so we assume he could be 10 5 offsuit. 2 more players call before me and i make it 3 bets to go. all call and the kill caps it off. all 6 other players including the kill call the cap. the flop comes A J 5, with 2 spades. i am first action and bet once, and see the kill gleefully raise me again. 3 players fold leaving the kill and i with 2 others and we all cap it off. the turn was a 6 of diamonds, and i bet and all 3 players called. the river was an 8 of clubs, so the spade draw didnt materialize. i bet, and the kill raised me again, both others folded and i decided the $1300 pot was big enough and just called.
he turned over a 4 7 of spades for a straight from 4 to 8 :)
oh well man EVERYONE has stories of brutal insane beats like that...
i handled it by saying NICE HAND SIR quite loud and brashly before walking out of the casino for 5 minutes to just get some air, walk around the block.
its good to get fresh air and a clear mind every couple hours just by walking around a bit outside. sometimes when you are playing with a crazy table you get tempted to gamble a lot more and play worse start hands just because of reads on players, but when you leave for a while you get your poker sense back and keep your reads on the players...
thats my 2 cents anyway
~rob
I don't think player (Mr. clean played that badly).
Maybe he's preflop call isn't that great (i suspect it isn't really that bad as he is getting about 12 1/2 to 1 1/2 if it is unlikely to be reraised and everyone will call...)
On the flop he closes the action getting about 2o-1. Granted the 3d maynot be good, but even if it isn't it pbly will be good if the board pairs. I think this is a reasonable call.
His bet out on the turn isn't that bad as its not that unlikely he has the best hand and certianly has a good chance to improve to it if it isn't.
I don't think id be disgusted if i lost w/a flush in this situation...
As for The bus drivers story. the guy flopped a flush draw, which pbly would be good. (SO he'll make his flush more than 1/3 of the time so he can cap for value if he is sure it will be good).
Now on the turn he picks up a gut shot which isnt great but it adds value to his hand. maybe capping isn't the greatest move but he will make the flush or straight (wo the board pairing) in the nbh of 10/42 times. So if he has more than 3 coning along he is actually getting the best of it by capping!!
I think heads up 47s vs AA with the flop of AJ5 w/two spades A's are no more than 3-1 favorite but maybe less. (I could do the math if needed..)
The days when you play in crazy games like this and the deck hits you over the head.
I was recently in a really wild 10-20 game like you describe. In a span of 6 hours I got pocket kings at LEAST 12 times and flopped or turned sets over half the time!!! Whether I made a set or not, the kings held up every time except once.
A couple of times I made kings full and had *4* callers on the river.
I also got AA about 5 times but they either won tiny pots or lost, but that is beside the point.
I really hauled in the chips that night. I was up, no joke, somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 BB but only managed to cash out about 70BB winner.
That is the problem with wild games - you can win a TON but you can also take a big loss.
The key is this -
If you play in the card barns of CA, you never have to play in wild games if you don't want to. Some people don't like them, and that's fine. Just choose another game.
But if you DO play in one, make sure that you are playing quite a bit lower than your bankroll would otherwise dictate. IE if you have a poker bankroll of 6000 you should be able to play in 10-20, naturally. But do NOT play in a wild and crazy game with this bankroll. You can lose a big chunk of your bankroll at one shot. I have a friend who played in a real rammin jammin 4-8 game, got AA 7 times and had them cracked every time on the river (even after flopping sets) and he lost over 500 dollars. In a 4-8 game! That's crazy.
If I had a 1,000,000 bankroll, I'd probably only play in wild games. But since I don't and I like to play to win, and I don't really want to suffer any big losses, I stick to nice soft loose passive games. It's easy to grind out somewhat more than 1BB per hour in these games and you don't have to worry about going home completely busted.
-SmoothB-
Well, look on the bright side-- at least you made it to the river with some of your hands (although I'm not sure I would have continued with the Broadway gutter and a co-ordinated paired board). I've dropped 700 in 10-20 games before and only seen the river three or four times. Just been blinded to death.
I've had this discussion with players before, and have determined that there are no coping techniques one can fall back on when the deck goes sour. Either you're the type of person who can handle it or you're not. One thing to note is that many people can handle it once, or twice, or thirty times, but after a while the cumulative effect of all those bad beats begins to whittle at their game, until a fine player becomes average at best. I wouldn't think much of this last outing, but I'd pay close attention to your next two or three sessions to make sure there isn't any kind of residual effect.
This was a 10-20 game that was just starting to get a bit crazy. A player had just moved into the seat to my right and he was a bit of a maniac.
I get AJ of hearts on the button. 2 limpers to the maniac in the cutoff seat who raises, I three bet. Unfortunately both blinds and the limpers call, and the maniac hits it again. Everyone calls and we take the flop 6 handed for 4 bets each! 12 BB in the pot already!
Flop is KsTh4c rainbow. Not the WORST flop I could have hoped for but certainly not the best either.
Everyone checks to the maniac who lets loose with a bet. I raise here with my gutshot, runner runner flush draw, and one overcard. I have to hope that I can get some people out of this pot in case my ace is good if it hits, or even my J for that matter, since I really don't know what the maniac has.
Unfortunately, so I think, we only lose 1 player. The others call and the maniac just calls.
The turn is the beautiful Q of spades (2 spades on board). I now have the nut straight. Checked all the way around to me, of course I bet. BB just calls, maniac checkraises me! Other 2 players drop. I happily throw another raise in and the BB caps it! What do they all have I wonder?
River is a blank, BB bets, maniac looks very distressed and just calls, I raise, BB looks for a minute, shakes his head and just calls, maniac makes a disgusted crying call.
Maniac had a set of kings (flopped top set) BB had J9 - OF SPADES (2nd nut straight and flush draw on turn), and I of course drag a monstrous pot with the the nuts.
Neither of the other 2 players knew where to put me because of my raise on the flop. No one put me on raising on the gutshot draw, and evidently the maniac didn't think the BB would have called 2 bets cold with HIS gutshot to the non-nuts.
Comments?
-SmoothB-
You were drawing thin and got lucky.
Actually, it's obvious you had the odds to draw and you tried to maximize your chances of draggin the whole pot. Maniac could have a wide range of hands, it just so happened that this time he had a real hand (did his 4 bet preflop tip you off to this, or would he 4 bet many different hands here?)
I like your raise on the flop. It didn't work exactly like you wanted to but it looks like it may have bought you a free card on the turn since the maniac would have slowplayed his set hoping to checkraise your "obvious" pocket aces.
Well played, nice catch, have fun counting the chips.
I am in 20-40 at Isle. I'm in medium-late position with AJ suited. It's raised once to me, I call, button three bets and the usual insanity sets in. It's capped 6 ways before flop.
Flop is J-3-2 rainbow. It's bet, called and raised to me. I put original bettor or raiser on a possible overpair but in that game you never know. I smooth called, and original bettor reraises. 4 or 5 remain.
Turn is a rainbow 2. The bettor, first caller and raiser check to me--now I'm thoroughly confused. I think I may have best hand, so I bet. Only the button--an aggressive daring player--calls. River is a queen. I bet, button calls, says "show me your 2"--i show hand, he turns over KQ, takes down a monstrous pot.
Should I have reraised the flop? Given my read, I don't see how I could unless I just wanted to lose a lot of money. Is there anything else anyone wants to tell me to salve my wound? Or rub salt in it?
Despite the fact you lost on the river, you made some big mistakes in this hand that will hurt you in the long run.
First, you cold-called a raise with a piece of cheese like AJ. This is a trap hand that will hurt you badly in the long run. If you flop an A, you have kicker problems, and if you flop a J, there are lots of overcards that can come and kill you, which is exactly what happened.
Secondly, you had terrible position. You were sandwiched between two raisers and of course the pot gets capped in what you call "the usual insanity". Well if you knew that more raises were likely you DEFINITELY should have folded. You are looking at four bets, not two. And AJ is just not worth 4 bets.
In this kind of game you need to play PREMIUM hands. A hand like AQ is marginal. AJ is just garbage.
You asked, "should I have raised the flop?", which makes me think you dont understand why you lost so much money on this hand. You're focusing on the fact that you lost to a card on the river, instead of the fact that you got involved for a lot of money with a marginal, vulnerable hand that was lucky to be in the lead at ANY point, much less showdown.
natedogg
Most of what you say is true, but there is a missing element here. In that particular game, early position raises don't necessarily indicate AA KK QQ or AK. Also, blinds defend almost automatically, and the number of raises doesn't deter them. So I knew I had three people in already with a good chance of 6 or more in the hand. That makes the suited aspect of AJ, while usually insignificant, worth considering.
Maybe I should also add that I was sitting about $1400 to the good at that point and succumbed to the temptation of a big pot with a nut-potential hand.
I think you should have reraised the flop. If the button would have called the 3 bets with overcards, he would have called the turn as well, so you would still have lost.
Even if you were up against an overpair, you would probably have had a 5 outer and 28 (I think) bets in the pot to justify 3 bets.
What do you think the rest of them had?
"I'm in medium-late position with AJ suited. It's raised once to me, I call, button three bets and the usual insanity sets in."
if you cant beat em ...
brad
seriously, it sounds like a AA/KK/QQ/AKs kind of game, which is supposedly terribly boring/frustrating to play correctly.
Usually, I'm playing in the $30-$60 at The Bellagio, but tonight, partly because Charmaine likes the buffet I played at The Mirage. For those who don't know this room has made a tremendous comback and is packed again with all limits up to and through $20-$40 for both hold 'em and stud.
I played $20-$40 hold 'em and $20-$40 stud this evening and both games were very good. Anyway, here's a hand that occurred in the $20-$40 hold 'em that I thought some of you might want to comment on.
I raised in early position with AdKc. A poor playing regular called two seats to my left and the player in the big blind called.
The flop came KsTh9c. The player in the big blind bet, I raised, the player on my left called the two bets cold, and the player in the big blind threw his hand away.
The turn was the Kh. I bet and was called.
The river was the 6s. I checked, my opponent bet, I called and won the pot as he showed KdJc.
All comments are welcome.
Mr. Malmuth, I'm still a young player but I question your check call on the river. I was hoping your post would suggest a check raise but that was not the case. If he was a poor player he could very well have Kxs, and a poor player would usually raise the turn once he hit his boat. If he had a set on the flop, almost all players would 3 bet given that flop.
My question is were u afraid of the straight or him holding QJs? Im wondering why u checked called, and not checked raised or bet it right out. Thanks for your reply, i notice many flaws in my game and perhaps my betting out here would be one of them. I figure I can get ATs to call as well as lower pocket pairs, while weaker hands may check behind you, thus losing a bet.
The only part of this hand subject to a difference of opinion is the check on the river.
It boils down to how weak this player actually is, which only you are in a position to know. I suspect he is weak but not awful. He probably understands enough not to play 92o UTG, and that big cards win more pots, and such.
So the question is HOW is he weak? Will he foolishly slowplay a K in that situation even with a dangerous board out there? Will he call you down with a pair of tens, but NOT bet it on the river if you check?
I suspect he is weak in that he doesn't understand the problems associated with calling raises with a trap hand, and that he is aggressive enough that he would bet a pair of tens on the river if you checked. So you wisely induced the bluff on the river and avoided a raise if he had filled up. This makes sense too if you know he is prone to play trap hands like KT, K9, and QJ, all of which fit the board nicely and could beat you.
In fact, this MUST have been the reason for your play otherwise you would have check-raised. You were worried he had outflopped you with a trap hand, so you just induced a single bet on the river. Right?
natedogg
I think the hand plays itself. Not sure about the underlying strategy on the river but it seems to me that Mason was afraid he had a trap hand and didn't want to risk two bets to win one, so he checked so that he would only risk one bet to win one bet instead of two to one.
I suspect knowing the player is the essence of this play, and that if the guy had just sat down to Mason's left and Mason had never played a hand against him then he would have bet the river rather than checking.
I for one, would love to hear about the river strategy as it seems like the only interesting part of this hand, and I would like to know what Mason was thinking in this spot.
--how many hands could mason have been against that beat him on the river (and would raise him if he bet)?
--how many hands could mason's opponent bet when mason checked on the river? how many of those hands could mason beat?
etc, etc
this board wasnt scary enough to warrant a check, unless he was planning to check-raise. im not sure what he's going to say to convince us that he made the BEST play w/trips top kicker given the board and play he describes.
You say he's a poor playing regular, but i think it's very important here how poor. For instance, if he made two pair on the flop, would he raise you on the flop, or turn? If he decided to raise it on the turn, how would he react if he now made a full-house on the turn. I think this could very well have been the case...first intending to raise you on the turn with his two pair, but when he improved to a boat on the turn, he decided to wait till the river. So i think the fear for a boat is very realistic. The more i think about it the more i like your check call, because when he has a weaker king you still get your BB, when he has the full-house, you save a BB, and you might even get a BB from a bluff.
I am a little bit surprised that your opponent bet on the end. I expected that the weak player had a hand that was not strong enough to raise with, but too strong to fold, or it was a drawing hand. In either of these cases, I do not expect a weak player to bet on the end against me. Therefore, I probably would have bet this hand on the end.
While it is possible that he made a straight on the end, if I could reasonably assume that he would have raised ealier with 2-pair or better (even a straight), then I still think it's worth a bet on the end. However, if this player is a little bit tricky, then I would definitely check-call on the end.
Steve
My reading of the situation:
If Mason's opponent is on a draw he is always going to fold to a bet. If he has a King he is always going to bet when Mason checks. If he has filled up he will raise if Mason bets and 3 bet if Mason checkraises. The question is would he have raised on the river if Mason had bet thus winning Mason an extra bet. As he did not raise the turn the answer is probably no.
The check on the river might have induced a bluff with the drawing hand
Right. Against and unknown opponent in a 20-40 game, I would check-call to induce a bluff and prevent myself from getting trapped for an extra bet.
But, when I characterize someone as a "weak regular" I usually think of a calling station. There are all sorts of hands that I have seen weak regulars call on the river against scary boards like this. I would not have been surprised if he had AJ. I was surprised that he bet though. Usually this type of player just hangs on when he has something of a hand and hopes to win the pot, and does not worry as much about maximizing his win.
I think it's a close decision between check-calling and betting, especially with the second K on board, since this makes it less likely that he has Kx. One important factor is whether or not Mason could fold if raised. Given the size of the pot, he would have to know his opponent very well to be able to fold, but this player is a regular.
If you somehow KNEW your opponent had a king, all your points would be valid. You're forgetting about all the non-king, non-drawing hands Mason's opponent could be holding. Only a weak player would call on the turn here with a pretty good king.
Steve:
I said poor player, not weak player. There is a difference. If I would have said "weak," then you comments would be correct.
Well what do you mean by "weak" and "poor". In common usage they are interchangable.
What is your standard lexicon for describing an opponent's strength? Is it something like:
clueless moron
rank beginner
weak player
poor player
Ray Zee
You
God
Badger
:)
But seriously, when you say poor player, do you mean a player who sort of understands the game and has decent hand selection but just doesn't grasp concepts like trap hands, position, etc.?
Whereas by "weak" player you mean someone who doesn't really know anything and just plays his cards, hoping to make a hand regardless of the action around him?
Just for future reference so I know what kind of opponent you're talking about....
natedogg
I know that this is vague, but a weak player would be someone who has the tendency to call when he should raie or fold. (If he is weak tight he will fold too often.) A poor player is someone who just does not play poker well. This might be because he is weak, but could also be because he is loose aggressive.
Mason-I'm trying to figure out what you put your opponent on for you to check-call the river. If he had QJ he probably wouldn't have waited until the river to raise, not with the board pairing on the turn. If he's "poor playing" I suppose KT or K9 are possibilities. Waiting until the river to raise would be perfectly reasonable given his position. But there are too many hands he'd call with if you bet but check down if you check. But I feel the most alarming part of your post is the fact that your wife prefers the Mirage buffet to the Bellagio buffet. That's like preferrring KTo to KK.
I was in LV for couple of days earlier this week. Based on the short time I was there, I played 15-30 at Bellagio, and 20-40 at the Mirage. While both games were generally very good, the Bellagio games were not consistently good. In the short time that I was there, it seemed to me that the better local players were attracted to Bellagio more so than the Mirage.
I was wondering if this was a trend, and if so why? Why would someone play in a sometimes tough 15-30 game when two doors down there is usually a very good 20-40 game? It might be that since the Mirage has fewer games going, that the wait time is longer.
What do you think?
Wait time probably has something to do with it. But I think that the main reason was that The Bellagio being the new fabulous place just attracted all the business. But that is changing back. Part of the reason is that The Mirage has a very well run poker room. Part of the reason is also that The Mirage is a much more open poker room and is centrally located. This is not the case at The Bellagio.
In any case, as long as you are not interested in playing higher than $20-$40 The Mirage does have plenty of games and they are generally very good.
i would've bet out on the river with that second K on the board. if he has a hand like JT, QT - he's going to call you..but probably won't bet if you check (fearing JJ, QQ, AA).
A classic case of a poor player calling a pre-flop raise with a hand that is likely dominated and paying through the nose because of it. I haven't read the other posts yet but I imagine there was talk of the check on the river. I would probably have bet out.
n/t
I like the check on the river if he would have folded a hand like 10-J to a bet on the river. The wildcard is the BB. What did you put him on?
If you thought the BB had a K it's very likely that you're beaten or you won't get called.
all comments are welcome. so here goes.
as usual you get hit in the face with the deck and get action to boot.
you probaly got a comp to the buffet.
by playing twenty forty instead of higher you sacrificed 20 and hour times say 5= 100 bucks. that buffet cost you 100 bucks. you could have gone to pierros instead.
that girl is going to be your downfall:)
this hand proves kinda that all players need to get a bankroll and improve their game and get into bigger games where they can actually make some serious money.
The way I analyzed this hand on the river was as follows.
1. If my opponent had slow played a full house I will be sorry I bet.
2. If he has a straight, I amy also be raised and will be sorry I bet.
3. If he has a king and I check, the money will go in anyway.
4. If he has AT, QT, or JT and I bet, he might fold or he might call. If I check he might bet for values instead of folding, and so on.
So when looking at all these options, it seems to me that if I check and have the best hand, the money will probably go in anyway. This allows me not to risk being raised. I do believe that it is close between betting and checking, but that checking is the slightly better option.
nt..good thread..
I would have imagined he would've raised on the TURN with a straight or a set or with two pair.
which is exactly why mason is (for the first time ive ever noticed) actually (slightly) WRONG on this hand. amazing but true.
audaciously yours, mike
Your analysis of the river was right in line with my thinking as well. My question is, would you have played AA any differently?
If not, then was your opponent's play that far off from being correct (once he made 3 kings) knowing you would play AA and AK similarly in that situation? You said he was a poor player but I assume you mean he's not a total moron, just not advanced.
natedogg
Probably not as long as I feel that if raised on the turn I can safely fold AA.
but this hand is pretty boring...in limit poker, the only issue is whether to check, bet, or check-raise the river. we're talking about one BB. this is not pl, or nl poker, in which case the discussion would be much more interesting.
what's funny about most of the limit postings is how they usually focus on a single bet or raise. this is not going to make a huge difference in your game. its almost like flipping a coin.
believe me, you can blow off a lot of dough *slightly* misplaying the expensive streets.
brad
First, I hate to break the news to you but if you go into any poker room in the US almost all the games are limit, so if you want to be suucessful, you better understand how to play it well.
Second, there are many situations that do come up where your raise, particularly on fourth street, can make the difference between your winning or losing a large pot. I agree that this was not one of them but to play this hand well on the river was not straight forward.
By the way, I usually make the exact argument that you make when desribing no limit or pot limit hands, particularly those that are played in the tournaments. That's because someone is almost all in before the flop or on the flop. You ver rarely ever read about a skillful turn or river play.
I think that this was a pretty straight-forward hand, and that I would have played it the same way that you did. However, if the board would have been slightly different, betting the river might become the better play. My somewhat lenghty analysis below:
If he's got a QJ, he should have raised you on the turn - to make it expensive to draw to the house. However, a real weakie might think that his straight is pretty air-tight and wait for the river to hit it again, despite the pair on the board. I think that most players would have raised you by now, so I am fairly sure that he doesn't have this hand.
I think that it's similar if he's got 99 or TT - you don't want the K to get the house cheap (I would raise the flop with either hand, and many would do the same, but you'd surely hear by these hands by the turn).
As for him filling up on the turn, this is where things get a little hazier for me. What kind of hand could this guy have? He could have K9 or K10 suited, which is possible since the 9 & 10d aren't out. These are hands that weakies love to play from any position, and this fact makes the river check correct IMO. However, if the board comes out in a way to eliminate one of the two of these hands, maybe it would be correct to bet out on the river, since the odds of him having a house would be lower. The odds of him having KQ or KJ are higher than him having K10 or K9, since many players throw the latter 2 away, and the fact that the board containing these a 9 & 10 makes it less likely to occur. This fact may make betting out on the end correct, and if you are able to eliminate KTs or K9s, then I think that this bet becomes much more clear. Mason et al: I'd love some input on my rationale - especially if it's not correct.
10-20 full table good players , no fish in the game.
All fold to 2 off button, he raises, 1 off button reraises. I am the button with KK, I cap the betting. flop comes Kc,7h,2s $135 pot
Action goes check,check.This is about the only flop I would ever slow play in this game and I also check. What is the consensus here on betting vs. slowplaying?
Reasons for betting: -Both will almost definitely call. With 12 SB's in the pot pre-flop and likely 15 SB's in the pot post-flop, they almost have odds to chase a set if they reckon one would nail it. -Checking seems weird. Good players will be alerted. You don't cap pre-flop and then check a K high flop. Even with pocket queens I think that guys with enough confidence in their cards to make QQ four bets will also bet a K-high flop. -Someone MIGHT be looking for the check-raise with pocket aces, although I wouldn't under these circumstances. -A hand like AK or KQ could be ready to check-call you to the river (AA or KK is very real possibilities here naturally). That is at least something.
Reasons for slowplaying: -It's possible that you could be up against two non-monsters here. Two off the button, people can steal with 55 and up and the cut-off could easily be re-stealing with AJs/AQ/99.
how do you usually play on the button?
if i checked behind everyone on the button after capping pre-flop it would look *very* strange.
Yes it looked very strange and felt very strange. I thought that move practically yelled pocket KK.
However the first original bettor bet the turn of a JC putting 2clubs and 2 to the nut straight. The cutoff folded and I raised. he called. The river was a red T. He bet and I made the crying call knowing I just lost. If it was PL or NL I would have folded to a pot bet.He had AQc for the nut straight. I know him and he would have folded for $10 if I bet the flop. Oh well I still think I would slow play this situation again.
interesting hand in 2040he the other night.
guy on button raised preflop (with like 3 or 4 limpers and the bb called), and the flop was like 99J, and he had pocked nines!
well, everybody checked to him (it was that kind of game) and he bet!!
the more i thought about it later, the more i liked it, because -
1. in this game people would take one off on the flop,
2. by getting 3 or 4 more small bets into the pot on the flop, hes providing pot odds to call his bet on the turn, whereas if he checked the flop and bet the turn, even a quality draw might fold.
so basically on the flop hes getting more money into his pot, and hes increasing the chance that hell be able to get more money in on the turn.
brad
I can see how it's tempting to slowplay in this situation but I think, at the very least, your 2 opponents will call since they're getting odds. If you win the pot outright, then don't be disappointed.
Rahul
Online $8-16 game. Hero holds QQ in SB. Four players limp, hero raises, BB drops, all four limpers call.
Flop: 9-9-2, two spades. Checked to Hero, who bets. Two first limpers call, last two lays down. What are the chances of a trip being out here? Remember, these are the first two limpers, who'd likely raise almost any pocket pair to keep the field short.
Turn card is a red 4. Checked to Hero, who bets. First limper calls, second limper raises, Hero calls, limper calls.
River card five of clubs. Checked to turn-raisor who bets, Hero calls, first limper drops. Turn-raisor shows 89o to take down a nice pot.
My question is: Should Hero check/call alternatively and controversally check/fold the turn?
lars
This hand is highly player dependent.If you haven't noticed any shenanigans by him he probably has a 9,thus a fold is in order but it sure is tuff.
Getting into his mind: he could be putting you on AK and trying a bluff now, maybe with 2 spades like A4. I go through cycles of calling and folding these type of situations. I usually play with the same guys in every game so you have to zig and zag or your toast.
final answer:If I had NO evidence of him being wild I would fold to the check raise.
To Tony G I did have that hand, and i wasn`t check raised, i betted right out and got raised..
When a player flops a set, he often waits until the turn to raise. So when someone raises on the turn after calling a flop that does not look like much, then he usually has a set. But in this case there are two suited cards, so it is not unlikely that both players are on a flush draw when they call the flop.
So checking the turn seems like a bad option. You do not want to give away a free card to flush draws and overcards. When the second limper raises, it is very likely that he has a set. This betting pattern is consistent with him having a set, and it is not a bluff or semi bluff since it is obviously very unlikely that both you and the first limper will fold. The problem is that there are 10.5 big bets in the pot. So your effective pot odds are 11.5:2 if you call him down to the end. You will almost certainly lose if a spade comes, and you will probably lose if Q does not come. I'm too lazy right now to think up reasonable assumptions and do the math, but I think you should fold after being raised.
Steve
good job on appropriating the button for yourself.
unfortunately, you didnt use your newfound position and check the turn.
in my opinion the danger of an overcard (6/46 or something) is way outweighed by the chance of trips.
i mean, there were *four* limpers.
brad
Brad, getting the BB out as SB isn't helping Hero's position a bit. SB will always, as long as involved in the pot, be the first to talk on ALL betting rounds.
Also, there's not just the danger of overcards here. The last limper were almost guaranteed on a flush draw.
lars
"Flop: 9-9-2, two spades. Checked to Hero, who bets. Two first limpers call, last two lays down. What are the chances of a trip being out here? Remember, these are the first two limpers, who'd likely raise almost any pocket pair to keep the field short.
Turn card is a red 4. Checked to Hero, who bets. First limper calls, second limper raises, Hero calls, limper calls. "
its checked to hero :)
brad
the reason to focus on overcards is that a bet on the turn should get them out; a bet on the turn wont get a flush draw out. or something like that.
Flop 992 2 spades, SB- Hero Bets right out, turn 4- Hero (me) bets right out, "flush draw player" calls, last limper raises, i call, "flush player" call, river a blank, check to raiser, i call.
Is that the right or wrong way to play the hand? As i see it the raiser also have a good semi bluff option, to place me at AK wasnt that unreasoneble. I think i had to call, for the following 3 reasons.
1. The player could have hands like, 8-8, 7-7, 6-6, 5-5 and figured the mid 2 pairs might do.
2. The player could also have pair of 4 and a flush draw.
3. He could also have Ac-Kc or at least 2 overcards to the board with the draw.
In my opinion its a clear call. But if anyone disagree please or have an opinion please respond.
in my experience youll be beat here more than 95% of the time, because there were initially a lot of players, and then on the turn the raiser raises against 2 active players, both of whom are in for one bet already.
change the flop to T93 with 2 spades and i think you play it like you did (or more aggressively).
brad
$10-20 online.
An early position unknown player raises. 2 cold callers and I am on the button with JJ (suits are unimportant). I make it 3 bets. The blinds fold. The early position raiser caps it and both cold callers call and I call.
The flop comes A 2 3 rainbow.
Everyone checks to me. I bet and the preflop raiser calls and one loose cold caller calls as well.
The turn comes an offsuit 5. Again, both players check to me. I check.
The river comes an 8. Again, both players check and I check.
Please comment - results to follow.
Puggy
I can't see how your going to win this without betting the turn (a difficult thing to do without knowing the players well). Your check on the turn said "I don't have an ace." I assume you got shown JJ or QQ?
You could bet the river, but I think your hand is a little weak to do that. QQ and KK aren't going to lay down now and it's unlikely your opponent capped it with 99 or 10/10. The chances of him having JJ are very low and he probably calls.
Good analysis, Winger.
Once I checked the turn, I thought betting the river had no positive value. Any Ace or QQ or KK would almost definitely call.
The question is whether I should have bet the turn or not. At the time, I thought it was fairly likely that the capper had AA and had fancy play syndrome. Also, when I got the 2nd caller on the flop, I figured one of the 2 had an Ace. Unfortunately, I probably didn't think the situation through enough.
Isn't it possible both of the players actually had a big pocket pair and took one off on the flop since they were getting about the right odds to try and hit their set?
I'll post the results of the hand tomorrow.
Puggy
i havent looked, let me guess.
KK and AJs(ill say hearts)
brad
did you three bet because you thought all 3 players had each others high cards( like AK AK AK)?
The preflop capper showed 99. The other player showed QQ.
I 3-bet preflop because the 2 cold callers were loose players. I thought there was a very good chance that they had relatively weak hands.
A bet might of won it for me on the turn, although since the 2nd player was loose, I might have been called down anyway.
Puggy
Offhand, i'm putting the unknown player on KK or QQ, especially after the check call of the flop, and subsequent check on the turn. Who knows what the other player had - probably some weak ace. The pot here is pretty huge (10 BB), so if you think both players will fold at least 9% of the time, fire away. I'd be inclined to take a shot at it.
Bill
so ive just done a hit and run at another table for a (for me) big amount and sit down at my usual 20 40 he game.
its the only must move game, commotion, 7 players, im the cutoff in seat 2.
a player who jumps games like crazy sits down in the 1 seat and is promptly not dealt in. (not asked, not dealt in.)
everybody calls (3 calls), seat 1 goes nuts about not being dealt in ( i guess he was losing at stud), and i look down to see A8s.
im still happy about not having to pay time (theres like 5 names on the board, but i guess with empty seats it doesnt count), and i kind of like the guy in seat 1, as he is pretty much like one of those nuclear control rods they use so the nuclear power plants dont blow up, if you know what i mean (the game is always loose and sometimes just crazy).
so i push my cards over and tell him he can play my cards, no big deal. (im trying to play real good and tight tonight, and figure this hand is mostly just a variance hand, not worth too much.)
hes still arguing with dealer, but kind of seems like hes not sure just how much of a screwball i am.
i hold the game up a while, the dealer says come on, a guy to my left says theyre my cards, so i scoop them back.
i was seriously considering folding, but of course i call. everybody calls and we see the flop 7 handed.
flop Axx with one of my suit. utg bets out, fold,fold, i raise ( seat 1 groans) all fold to utg who calls.
i was going for a free card but the turn brings a spade so i bet when checked to and utg calls.
river brings a spade and utg calls me ( he had A6o for one pair, by the way).
seat one is long gone by the time im stacking chips, and i see him across the room at another table a moment later (time,manner,place be damned, heh) looking at me like "how can i lose to this idiot?" (heads up against him i think im like 10-1, a couple times at some higher limits).
nice country, huh?
brad
Very loose 10-20 Hold 'Em game...
I'm in the big blind with J10 of diamonds.
3 limpers, cutoff raises, small blind calls, I call, UTG re-raises, cutoff caps, all call. We see the flop 7 handed. I like my hand already.
Flop come 7 8 9 rainbow.
Small blind checks, I bet, UTG raises, next player raises, 2 drop, button caps it, small blind drops, I call 30 with the stone cold nuts. 4 people left.
Turn is an offsuit 6.
I bet out, raise, raise, button drops, I cap it.
River is a 7, no flush possible.
I felt I had no choice but to check...I thought for sure one of them had a set...maybe even set over set. They both check...and don't show their hands after I turn over J10.
One player yells 'Why don't you bet that!?' I simply say 'Pot's big enough.'
The only hands that make sense are pocket 10's or Jacks.
Comments?
It is very unlikely that either of the raisers had flopped a set. UTG more likely has pocket Aces because he limp-raised. The cut-off probably does not have such a small pocket pair because normally one does not raise with such a hand after so many people have entered the pot.
Perhpas these players are different and you knew that. Still, you can't rule out the possibility that they have over-pairs. In fact, even if either of them would play pre-flop this way with pocket 7's through 9's, it is still more likely that they have bigger pocket pairs.
I strongly believe that you should bet on the end here, and call if raised.
AA+KK+QQ+JT= Big Pot
Seems like two other tens were out there. I don't see anything to really make me think someone has a set. Still, I would probably check the river, as two pair could also have filled up, and someone else with a straight may bet from a later position after other people check.
I've been playing stud for a while but only recently began playing Holdem, in a 10-20 game. I'd appreciate some help in dealing with these general situations:
The flop is AQQ and I'm in middle position with AJ. There were no raises preflop and seven players are in, including myself and the blinds. If someone bets ahead of me, should I fold? It seems that I might have the best hand here, but there is also a reasonable chance that I am beaten unless an ace falls on the turn or river.
The flop is K95 and I'm in middle position with AT. Again suppose there were no raises preflop and seven players are in. If someone bets ahead of me, should I fold? I'm always tempted to call in situations like this but analytically it seems my only real chance of winning is if an ace falls, and even then I could be beat.
If I do play in either of the above situations, should I raise in an attempt to narrow the field?
Thanks for any help.
AQQ with AJ:
Raise. Even if all 6 opponents call all hands and never raise (e.g. with AK), you are still the winner more than half the time. Get those KJ, KT, JT and Axs hands to fold.
If an early position player then reraises you, you know where the Q is. Often you can fold right there if the flop is rainbow.
The first situation, go ahead and raise for the reasons Matt mentioned.
The second hand, consider the flop. What can you beat, and what are you drawing to? With 7 players in, there's almost bound to be a king out there, and with someone betting into 7 players, you can be almost positive that they've got one of them. So you're drawing to a runner runner straight, and 3 outs to your ace. That's drawing pretty thin, especially when someone could raise behind you. IMO, this is an easy muck.
The generality for the second situation is when there's many players in, you have no hand and no good draw, and have to call a bet, you should toss it. I think tossing it every time is correct, too.
Bill
If I do play in either of the above situations, should I raise in an attempt to narrow the field?I don't want to overgeneralize here, but as a rule of thumb, raises to narrow the field are a much more common tactic in stud than in hold 'em.
When you're able to your opponent on exactly the hand he's playing you can select the best strategy possible for that particular poker situation. When you reach that level of skill, you'll be a complete player. Super/System.
PONDER THESE
ON PUBLISHING OR PERISHING
I am returning this otherwise good typing paper to you because someone has printed gibberish all over it and put your name at the top. English Professor, Ohio University
ON MARTIAL ARTS AND METAPHYSICS
Deja Fu: The feeling that somehow, somewhere, you've been kicked in the head like this before.
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A day without sunshine is like night.
ON MATERIALISM
He who dies with the most toys, is, nonetheless, still dead.
ON INFINITY
If you had everything, where would you keep it?
ON ECONOMICS
The cost of living hasn't affected its popularity.
ON REVISIONIST HISTORY
What was sliced bread the greatest thing since?
ON MATERIAL SCIENCE
Character density: The number of very weird people in your office.
ON LITERATURE
This is not a novel to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force. Dorothy Parker ON
EXPLANATION OF THE END
One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C programs. Robert Firth
ON PROPHECY
The meek shall inherit the earth -- they are too weak to refuse.
ON NUMBERS
Grabel's Law: 2 is not equal to 3 -- not even for very large values of 2.
ON WORLD POLITICS
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.
AND FINALLY, ON DRUGS AND DEVELOPMENT
There are two major products to come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence.
For those players who are heading to the Mississippi for the tournament. All the best.
Attitude can change your the outlook of life. Alby Mangoles
Every March about at this time of the year along comes some young upstarts and young bucks. These are the college kids in town watchin and betting basketball. They are sharp and frisky. Some play a mean game and some think they know all about poker but have no clue. But every young buck must first learn from the older generation valued principles. This is where my story begins as well as my poker career. When I was twenty-four years old I met a valued and trusted freind a proffessional gambler. He was not a master at poker but had studied the game. He advised me that with hard work you can make very good money at the game. So I went back home and studied over six months. Working on the odds reading all the books I could afford I slowly started to put a game plan together. But all plans have to be eventually tested. So one weekend we made plans. My game plan would be tested in La Center Washington that Sunday. This was it I was going to play my first hands. Walking into the small card room at 2:00pm in the afternoon, we asked the house what limits they were running that day. They were running two 5-10 and a Sunday afternoon old lady's game. The Sunday afternoon lady's game was restricted to ladies only and it was .50cent and 1 dollar. Being apprehensive I put my name on the 5-10 list but walked around the room. Upon viewing the ladies game I noticed that most of them were in their 60's. A very nice lady called out to me"you ever play holdem young man?" "No", I responded. "In fact I have never played a hand at a table in my life.""Ladies this young man has never played a hand of poker can we make some room for him." All the ladies quietly noded their approval. But then I started to think this was to be a ladies only game why would they want me to sit down. They figured they had a bad player on their hands. These little old ladies new the valued principal. Find bad players and try to beat them. That was the only reason why I was in that game. They knew how to spot an edge. You must spot edges in order to win. Edges come in varius forms. They come from unknowlegable players, players not concentrating, drunks, people that over play hands and a multitude of other edges given away by opponents. Your job is to spot edges or make edges. These ladies spoted and edge and made and edge that was me entering the game.
Every day I watch opponents some to be considered the best in the world. I spot an edge in almost 95 percent of the players. The 5 percent for which I cannot spot an edge are usually the best players in the world and are considered that by their peers. You as a player should be trying to get into that 5 percent. Now what does it take not to give up edges. A strong starting hand strategy, excellent blind play, good board reading, correct strategies verses opponent and proper betting according to odds on each street(this includes bluffing stratagies). It is your job to eliminate edges in these areas that opponents can spot. If your starting hand strategy is not correct for the game rework it. If you are missing bets or calling bets because your reading ability is weak work on it. Decide how you want to play the blinds. If you lose track of the pot recalculate it. What ever edge you are giving away solve it. This includes going on minor tilt. You should strive to see all opponents mistakes that they are giving away. When you see mistakes in all players and do not have them in your game you are probably the best in your game.
By the way back to my first hands. Yes, I won that day. I won 18 dollars and have never looked back. But those little old ladies taught me a lesson for which I will never forget and I thank them all where ever they may be. Someone has an edge or is giving an edge in every game. It is up to you to limit the opponents edge while increasing your own.
Forward all funny says and interesting poker jokes to Hosh115@aol.com.
Try the Hosh test. What are the percentages of Aks, Ako, A2s, and 87s. Answer later in the week. Unless someone figures it out before that. From Mike Petriv's Odds on hold'em. It will take all three charts to complete.
Remember play well and have fun!!Hosh
I don't understand the question. Perecentages of what? I would like to do the question but I don't understand what you are asking us to do.
I think some young bucks are going to make a big splash at Tunica this year, following Phil Ivey's performance last year, he was but what, 23? The experience matters more than anything, but look out, the new wave hits Tunica in less than 2 weeks.
And yes, I am one of 'em.
Hosh,
These weekly "Tips" are just great. Keep it up. Now I know to always look for them on Monday--except when you write them on Sunday. Your ol (or is it "old"?) buddy Vince is probably reading this too---even though he is taking a break from 2+2 posting. Too bad you are not going to Tunica. I could show you all the local highlights----that would be about 2 minutes looking at a cotton field.
Abe
I would love to go snip hunting in the corn fields of Tunica. Just so I can help you with the problem. Hosh believes you must work your brain to solve problems given but I will help a little. These are percentages before the flop. What is the true value of a hand. Now as opponents gets involve then the value must be adjusted. We are looking for true value here. The Ak is easy. Almost a no brainer.
Sorry I meant cotton fields. All the best. Thanks for the compliment.
There are two major products to come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence.Actually Hosh, this phrase usually (and better) said as "the only two things to ever come out of Berkely are BSD and LSD." (for those of you who are confused, BSD is berkeley system design, a flavor of unix).
What is the best way to play against someone who ask you to chop the Blind?
Where I play we pay a 10% rake to $5. The best way to play this person here, is to take back your blind.
?
The only two public card rooms in the Chicago area are Hollywood Casino, Aurora, IL and Harrah's, East Chicago, IN. Also known as SPM country.
I think this is best in a rake game. I think this should go w/o argument unless the rake is small.
I should note chopping should be a policy, you should always chop or alwyas not chop.
If its a time game, I guess you should make a general decision on whether you like to chop or not.
I like to chop no matter what, and i think it helps keep the table more freindly. Alot on this forum seem to be very antichopping in that it encourages softplaying, slows the action, and creates an impression of collusion. I still think like to chop though...
at Bellagio 15/30,blinds of 10 and 15,bet and 4 raise cap structure.Im in the small blind,everyone limps to an over agressive late position player who raises,the button, another bad player that had just taken a particularly bad beat the previous hand reraised,I looked down to see 2 red QQ's and called and the BB a tight unimaginitive player reraised,the original raiser folded and the button reraised it to make a cap and go all in.I called ,a mistake?,BB called,flop Q,10,7,rainbow,I bet BB called,button was all in,turn A,...I check BB bets I call,river Brick,I check BB bets I call and look at 3 Aces.Due to the BB reraise should I have gotten away from this hand preflop,or was the dead money and the all in play from a bad player along with the odds at that point enough to make a call right?.I knew I was in trouble from the BB .Thanks
Unless the player you described has very tight raising standards, even in middle position, you should play this hand. If the raiser plays HPFAP UTG style from middle position with no variation, you should fold pre-flop. I would probably reraise preflop if I was the first challenger in, but call if the 2nd or additional - unless calling will have opponents playing junk behind you (like KQo...), and you have reason to believe your hand is not so hot.
On the flop, you have a giant pot, you need to shut anyone out that you can. If you have doubts that your hand is best after this flop, you should have folded preflop. You can almost certainly get out KQ witha 3 bet here. If not, let him come. Waiting for the turn to raise here is silly, because you can make someone call 3 small bets against a smaller pot, which is better than 2 big bets in a much larger pot.
You did play this hand poorly, but it was on the flop that you made the error that cost you this pot. If your opponent is so bad that he calls 3 bets here with KQ, well, you lose, but you profit a lot from such play.
Note also that KQ is the only hand with more than 3 outs against you. But this is not so important because the pot is so large and you'd love to charge an AQ, AK or lesser Jack to play 3 outs angainst you, and these hands will all want to see the river given the pot size.
Let this hand be a reminder to those who think AJo is a better hand than KQo. I think the results here clearly show that KQo is a superior hand. Afer all, it won. :)
Dan Z.
This post belongs under "review of hand" by Bruce C below. Sorry.
Had 10-20 hand that I wanted a few opinions if possible. Playing at table that has been fairly tight, and I haven't seen any brilliant plays lately and was feeling confident at the table.
Was dealt AQs to the left of UTG. UTG folds and I raise. (normally just call with this, but wanted the riff raff out)
All fold to the button who calls, he has been calling alomst everything from the last 2 positions but was pretty easy to put on a hand or a steal.
SB calls, a good solid player who had been turning over decent cards. BB folds and we see the flop 3 handed.
9-5-2 rainbow. SB checks, I check, and button bets we both call.
Turn is a Q, putting 2 hearts on the board. SB checks, I bet and both call. River is a 7 or 8, but doesn't make the flush draw.
The SB bets out. What is the proper thinking on this hand? Set of 7s or 8s? Surely not, he had more respect for me than that to call with an underpair, at I least I think so. What is the play and what does that guy have?
I look at AQs differently. Usually I raise with it, but sometimes just call. If the riff-raff comes in, that's Ok because you've got a decent drawing hand. Then again, it plays well short handed too.
Against two opponents and a ragged (low) flop, I don't see much reason to check and call. It's possible you have the best hand.
When the Q comes, I think check/raising is a consideration, but betting can't be wrong and might be best depending on your opponents.
If the river was an 8, you should be thinking the sb might have flopped an open ender and just made his st8. I would pay off most players. I think you have to pay off in particular, because you should also be thinking about the fact you showed weakness on the flop.
Looks like SB may have 98h if the flop 9 was not a heart.I still think you have to call with top pair,top kicker.If the game is very tight he may just taking a shot at the pot.As you know tight players(you) are easier to push off a hand than non thinking opponents.So he is showing you respect if he IS bluffing.
Colonel,
I don't know how long you were playing at the table or if you have played with the SB before, but it might explain why he would call with 7's or 8's if that was his hand.
He might have a read on you which is: if the flop comes rags and you don't bet out it means you have AK or AQ. If you bet out, you have an overpair. This obviously is too predictable.
In that case he can play them(7's or 8's) much more profitably AFTER he calls the preflop raise. I think you made a mistake in not betting the flop. You have to show strength with your overpairs as well AK and AQ to give you opponents a chance to make a mistake by folding the best hand. The types of flops you want to bet are obviously Ace high and Queen high, but also a 952 rainbow or 882 flop. Why give your opponents a chance to draw out on you when you probably have the best hand?
This read also might explain why he called with cards that would make a straight with that board. If he turned over a J10 suited, or 7's or 8's this might have been why he called preflop. If he turned over a hand like 76 he might not be as solid as you think.
Jamie Collins
SB holds something like JJ, QJ or KQ. With you just calling the turn, he may assume that these hands are good and actually value betting them with a non-scary river card. With QJ and KQ a raise on the turn would be more of a gamble than betting straight out on the river. Because if he's re-raised by either you or the maniac BB he will have to pay more one more big bet to get the showdown than being raised on the river, which would also be easier to lay down with no semi-bluff possibilities left (an outright bluff on the river in a three-way pot rarely occurs).
He may decide to try a thin value bet on the river with a worse hand than yours or is alternatively just plainly bluffing.
lars
Well he was solid, but he played this hand horribly. I called, the button folded. He flipped over AA and I mucked. I don't understand why he didn't check-raise the turn, and he lost some respect on that play.
As far as betting out on the flop, AK, AQ and AJ are often played way too strongly whenever you don't flop anything to them. You bet out, you can have the pot stolen by just about any pocket pair or cost yourself a ton, defending your A high.
If you check a flop like this when you have nothing and sometimes when you hold that overpair, you get a lot more action. Once that flop comes out, you hand has gone way down in value if you don't hit anything to it.
Try calling an early position raiser when rags hit with a pocket pair. Rags hit and he bets out pop him, most will stare at you and reraise with their pocket pairs and just call with those AK AQs. Some may much right then. Some will just call planning for a check raise on the turn.
When a rag comes on the turn, if you've got the right read, AK, AQ may go into the muck. One of my common plays that works against most opposition. You just have to be able to read for the overpair or the AK. Against any 2 cards that do not contain an A or a K, AK or AQ is not that big of a favorite. Anybody know the numbers.
Try the play mentioned above with nothing, but only advise this against a preflop raiser, while on the button at a fairly tight table where you are likely to be head up. It works wonders for me and is a good money maker, plus, it is fun to steal pots from those preflop raisers without a showdown.
Well Colonel,
If checking the flop in this scenario works for you then by all means keep doing it. Personally, I've never found it to be a +EV play. Best of luck.
Jamie Collins
I must say I have to aggree w/Mr. Collins in regard to betting the flop. YOu could easily have the best hand and could easily pick it up right then and there.
If you plan to check often in a situation like this (a 3 handed pot which you open raised), you are often giving a free card when you have the best hand (and yes often AQs is often the best hand in this situation), and when you take a free card you are announcing your hand (two over cards), maybe you can now raise the turn (if you had an over pair), but this seems like asking for trouble unless you are willing to raise the turn also w/two overcards which i dond' think should be recommended.
Granted your play may get a win a extra bet or two playing this way when you have the best hand but i suspect youd often rather pick up the pot w/no pair.
If it's five or six handed, you should check and fold, but when it's three handed, you definitely should bet the flop.
One reason why you should always bet the flop is to defend against the very tactic the Colonel describes. It's a common move. Call the preflop raiser and try to push him off if the flop comes rags. The reason you bet the flop every time whether you have AA or ATo is because someone who is thinking of employing this tactic against you gets a lot less return on their money.
First, there's all the times you hit. You're going to hit about one third of the time with big cards.
So right away they're only looking at a 2/3 return on those two big bets. Now, if you bet every time regardless, they are really looking at spending 4 bets to bluff you, not 3. They will have to RAISE you everytime they think you missed the flop. They will never be able to take it down on the flop for one bet. And in addition, they are going to have to risk the four bets before they even get a real indication of whether or not you have a hand. Whereas if you check, they will have a very good idea of where you are FOR FREE.
This tactic only works when it's shorthanded anyway, so the pot won't be a big prize for their risk. They will have to risk 4 bets to win 7 (in a three handed pot). That seems to be a little better than the 2/3 of the time the raiser will miss except that the raiser will often have an overpair as well. Not to mention, if the raiser is a decent player he will occasionally mix up his play and raise with T9s or 76s or something and maybe hit with that.
So there's all the times you actually have a pair, all the times you're mixing up your play, and all the times you're going to hit anyway, and if your opponent realizes it's going to cost 4 bets to try to take the pot from you when you miss with overcards, it's not a very winning play anymore. And that's just assuming you actually WILL fold to him everytime you get raised when you have only two overcards. You might play back sometimes too.
To me, THAT's the best reason to bet the flop everytime when you are the preflop raiser in a shorthanded pot.
If you are out of position to boot, you MUST bet. Checking means you are giving the pot away to someone else. A bet is usually giving you 5-1 (with two players and dead blind money) or 7-1 (with three players including the BB).
natedogg
Your theory re: checking the flop with overcards is sound if there are many players left to act behind you. However, in a three handed pot a bet will take the money often enough on an uncoordinated board to be profitable.
First, I would always bet the flop here, if for no other reason than to try and get rid of the SB. If he's a decent player you gain nothing by letting him hang around and outplay you later. Further, there's a fairly good chance you have the best hand and can drag the pot right now.
On the river I would guess he's got a weaker Q, since a set would have check-raised the turn (or bet the flop) and a legitimate draw would have certainly bet the turn. However, I'd probably just call and hope for an overcall by the weaker player.
i haven't been to vegas in a while, but i'll be there this weekend. does anyone know where i can find middle limit hi/lo games? 7-stud or O8, either one.
are any rooms typically known to be tougher or easier than others (for any games)?
ie, where should i avoid, and where should i consider playing?
i know this is quite a vague question, but any input would help. thanks
Playing 20-40 for about 2 hours. Only played two hands during this time (just wasn't getting anything to play), so my table image was tight.
Idiot in seat 5 straddles the big blind. Next three players drop, I've got Q9s. I figure I either ditch it or raise with it. If I raise, I might run everyone off except the straddle (because of my tight table image), and I probably have a better hand than the straddle.
So, I made it $60, and everyone dropped except the big blind and the straddle. Flop comes 3, Q, 9 rainbow. Big blind bets, straddle calls, I raise - they both call. Turn is 9! They both check and call. River is a deuce. No three flush on board (too bad). They both call the river bet and I showdown.
Several players said they put me on either AA or KK. No one expected the hand I turned over. It was cool.
Of course, things don't always turn out so rosy when you raise with a hand like that. But, the combination of my table image, the fact that everyone had folded in front of me, plus the additional pressure I could exert by making it $60, seemed to make it the right play for me in that situation.
I think also that if the flop had come with an Ace or a King and one of the others bet, I would have to fold. So, how bad a play was this?
You haven't indicated how many players there were in the game, and thus we don't know how many players have yet to act behind you. But the reasons you give for your action are solid. Knowing (or suspecting) that you are a rock) and knowing they had a wild person behind them would inhibit the blinds from playing (or playinig too aggressively if they played). Plus your hand could "hit" in several different way (straight, flush, of the way it actually did turn out). I like your play from start to finish.
It was a full game (10 players). Big blind in seat 4, the straddle was in seat 5. The first three player after the straddle folded. I'm in seat 9 with seats 10 thru 5 left to respond to my raise.
As I indicated, only the big blind and the straddle called the raise.
It would probably be a better play if you were in the cutoff or on the button. That said, this is probably one of those plays with a slightly negative expectation, given your position and hand. I wouldn't get in the habit of making these kinds of plays, but if you're going to make a move you can pick far worse hands than Q9s.
Hi Bruce, The only disagreement I have with your post is concerning your comments on the flop. You would have thrown your hand away if an Ace or King fell? I don't understand this reasoning.
If you raised in early position because of your tight image, why wouldn't you try to take advantage of this image and reraise a flop that included an Ace or a King. If you throw your hand away after a flop of an Ace or King, what hand could you have, that you raised with an early position, that you would now throw away for 1 small bet. AQ/AJ maybe but against the BB and Straddle and depending on gutshot draws, I think a raise is more consistent with your image, may allow you to win the pot immediately, and may get you a free card if you are indeed looking at a gutshot on the turn or river.
Just my thoughts.
John Gaspar
Yes John, you are right. If I am going to take advantage of the tight image, I should be ready to fire another barrel to back up my pre-flop raise because the other players are already putting me on AA, KK, or AK.
Thanks for your comments.
Bruce
I agree with occasonally mixing up your play a little with this type of hand and situation. One of my weaknesses is that my hand selection is a little too predictable at times. However, it has been my experience that most players, especially the gambling kind that you are writing about, will almost never lay down top pair - even if they have a poor kicker. Often a player will have trouble laying down second pair. Remember, your opponets come to the table looking for excuses to play.
So I think that most of the time that the flop comes with an ace or king, and you are bet into by a typical player, that you should throw your hand away if you don't have anything.
Falcon
Sunday I was in a similair game with same image and utg straddles. I'm in same position 3 off straddle, no on comes in and I have 55. I raise thinking either muck or raise...I'll thin the field and hopefuly go heads up. Instead button 4 bets it and SB caps! uhoh...Now I KNOW button has qq-thru AA. I'll call see the flop and muck if no help.
Flop:985 rainbow
I instantly think she may raise her over pair so I bet. She only calls as do the others.
Turn: 5
Now I think she'll bet if I check, but she may in fact decide now to raise. In fact I'm sure she'll bet if I check thinking I have AK and she has best hand, but I want to believe she'll raise my bet. So I bet out, she calls as do the rest, Now that costs me 3 Big bets.
well good result on a play that was not that outta line pre-flop given my image of raiseing with ONLY premium hands. In fact there were two players making comments prior to this any time I came into a hand about the trouble they were in especially if I raised at any point. So this was to mix up my image a little also but mostly because I was trying to steal. That's ok you'll make $$ in futre bets from these people too.
I think this is a reasonable play since you are obviously being very selective about the conditions in which to make it. From the way you wrote your post, I gather that you agree that routinely raising with Q9s when you are the third to act is bad poker regardless of the presence of a live straddle.
One other consideration to add is how well you can play the rest of the hand against the straddler. John Feeney points out in his book that knowledgeable players often make mistakes because they overestimate how much they outplay their opponents after the flop. I have experienced this trap myself, and seen it in a good friend of mine, who used to play very well. Just because you are much better than the player who straddles does not mean that it is easy to outplay him after the flop. For example, suppose he is loose-aggressive. If the flop is A, K, J, or maybe even Q high, he may bet or check-raise with just about any hand. Because of his style of play, you cannot put him on a hand very easily and could be left with a tough decision on the flop. Even if you make a good call on the flop you could end up giving him free card to you vulnerable hand on the turn.
But if you have some control over your opponent, and you can more easily prevent yourself from getting trapped, then your play becomes more profitable.
I'm not saying that I disagree with your play, I'm just trying to point out another consideration to factor in when trying this type of play that is easy to mis-estimate. At least, I have been guilty of this type of misestimation in the past.
Steve
Thanks Steve,
No, I do not normally raise with a hand like that, but the situation I described in my original post led me to make the play. I had played against the straddler maybe once before and so didn't really know him, but from the other players I gathered that he is a poor player and a gambler who is liable to play any two cards to the river. This was verified by what I saw during the two hours I sat there. Once I saw him call a river bet against the pre-flop raiser with Q-high. The raiser had AK and took it down. But the straddler usually only bet when he thought he had the best hand.
At one point he had amassed approximately $2,500 - mainly from playing junk hands and hitting them. As I watched him show down junk hand after junk hand, I told the guy next to me that this fool was going to give all that money back to the table. By the time the hand I described was played, he had given about $2,000 of it back.
I was pretty sure that he wouldn't fold against me when I raised, but as I said, I was hoping to get it heads-up, figuring I had the best hand. From his previous play, I also was pretty sure that if I checked and he had anything at all, he would bet, and I would know where he was, and could play accordingly.
Jim's second article appears in the latest CP. He talks about the ability to release a seemingly good hand like top pair when raised on the turn.
Example No. 4 goes like this:
Jim is the 4th limper in with Ad3d. Small blind folds. Big blind checks. 5 way action.
Flop: Ac7s4h
Jim bets and only the big blind calls. There is $75 in the pot in this 10-20 game.
Turn: 9d
Jim bets. The big blind raises. Jim folds.
That may or may not be the correct play depending on your read of your opponent. In my experience, the big blind would likely have checkraised the flop with an Ace or 2 pairs. Many players would wait until the turn to raise with a set however.
In any event, I offer nothing further on the correctness of the fold; as I say, it is very opponent specific and depends on various other things such as the frequency with which you have been folding in similar situations in that session yada yada yada.
What I am really interested in commenting on is Jim's turn bet in the first place. IMO, the chief if not the only reason why most players bet here is to simply avoid giving a free card. IMO, this obsession to avoid giving a free card hurts players more than it helps them.
There are several situations where checking the turn here is the better play:
1. The bb has a hand like 87/97
If he has a hand like 87, a check by Jim on the turn will give the bb a free card while a bet may often see him fold. But if he misses on the river, he will check/call a high percentage of the time. Given that the pot is only $75 on the turn and given that this guy is going to miss the river 8 out of 9 times - a check on the turn may be better.
If he has 97 and made two pairs on the turn, a check on the turn is obviously better.
2. He has a hand like 65
Again, giving a free card is mitigated by the fact that if he misses the river, he will often feel the urge to bluff the river given Jim's check on the turn. So, in many cases, you make the same amount of money had you bet the turn.
Of course, if he makes the straight on the river and you pay off, you will likely again be happy that you did not bet the turn.
3. He has a set
Obviously, a turn check is the better play. well, maybe it's neutral because if you pay off his river bet, you lose the same amount as if you bet the turn and released when raised. But at least you avoid the possibility of being bluff checkraised by an inferior hand.
4. He has a hand like 87 and bluff checkraises you on the turn. Obviously, this would not be a good result for you.
In all of the above situations, you can see that checking the turn has a lot going for it.
Now, when does checking really hurt? I can identify 3 situations:
5. He has a gutshot with a hand like 32.
You are essentially giving him a free shot to make a hand that he would no doubt fold if you bet. That said, even here, you may encourage a bluff on the river by checking the turn. Or, you may encourage a river check/call if he pairs up. So, even here, checking isn't all that bad given that he only has 3 outs.
6. He has a hand like 87 and will call both your turn bet and your river bet. This is where checking is most counterproductive. Against this type of opponent, you simply lose out on $20 by checking the turn. You may as well bet.
6. He has a hand like 65, will gladly take the free card and resist the urge to bluff on the river if he misses. Once again, the turn check will cost you money against these types of opponents.
In balancing these various factors, I have found that checking here on the turn is often the better play. Now, I emphasize that this only applies when you are heads-up which means that you are usually only up against a 5 outer. Also, the pot has to be relatively small to do this even when heads-up.
The rationale for the check here can be extrapolated to various other common hold 'em heads-up situations.
My real point here is this: Don't just bet by instict to avoid giving a free card. Sometimes, you have to stop and think whether giving a free card will in fact add some EV to you on the hand. In making that decision, factor in how your opponent will react on the river if you check the turn. Of course, you also need to factor in the pot size when contemplating your move.
Comments?
The hand in question is actually example #5. You are correct in that your assessment of your opponent is important here. While an opponent may well check-raise on the flop with a bigger Ace or two pair, it depends upon how many other players he feels will be in the hand. If he thinks that it will be heads-up regardless, then most opponents like to wait until the expensive street to raise since they feel they can get more money in the pot this way.
The reason that it is important to bet the turn is because most of the time your opponent will fold and there is usually enough money in the pot that it is worth it to try and protect your hand with a bet. It also helps your image since you get viewed as an aggressive player not someone who will back off on the expensive street where prices double. It is important for you to send a message to any prospective opponent that you will frequently follow up your flop bets with bets on the turn especially in heads-up or shorthanded situations. This makes it less likely that they will try to suck out on you in future hands or try to put moves on you when they are heads-up against you.
If your opponent has Eight-Seven then he has 5 outs from 44 unseen cards so his chances of beating you are 39:5 against. By calling your turn bet it is costing him $20 to win the $95 that is in the pot plus another $20 he might win at the river when he bets and you call. So if he hits he rates to win $115 but it costs him $20. Therefore, he is making a mistake to call your turn bet. When you fail to bet the turn, you are the one making a mistake.
If your opponent has Nine-Seven for two pair you do not save very much money by checking the turn. If a blank comes on the river, you will be calling his river bet anyway so you still lose $20. If you bet the turn and get raised, you will fold. Now all that you lose is the chance of hitting one of your 5 outs to win the pot at the river. How much is this worth? There is $75 in the pot and you will win another $20 or $40 at the river if you hit for a total of around $100. (Note that if an Ace shows up at the river you will win only an extra $20 and you might not win anything additional). This is worth about $11.
If he has Six-Five, you are making a mistake by not betting your hand. It is highly debateable as to whether or not your opponent will try to bluff you out on the end if he misses. With a small pot containing only 3 or 4 small bets, he probably won't bluff bet on the end.
I believe there are times when checking on the turn is the best play but not when I have a fragile holding against one opponent and a non-threatening board. I believe that failure to follow through with a bet on the turn in these situations is a weakness in many player's games.
Good counter points, Jim.
"The reason that it is important to bet the turn is because most of the time your opponent will fold and there is usually enough money in the pot that it is worth it to try and protect your hand with a bet. It also helps your image since you get viewed as an aggressive player not someone who will back off on the expensive street where prices double. It is important for you to send a message to any prospective opponent that you will frequently follow up your flop bets with bets on the turn especially in heads-up or shorthanded situations. This makes it less likely that they will try to suck out on you in future hands or try to put moves on you when they are heads-up against you."
A good dividing line would perhaps be to bet hands like AT in this situation as at least now, your chances of outkicking your opponent's ace goes up.
"If your opponent has Eight-Seven then he has 5 outs from 44 unseen cards so his chances of beating you are 39:5 against. By calling your turn bet it is costing him $20 to win the $95 that is in the pot plus another $20 he might win at the river when he bets and you call. So if he hits he rates to win $115 but it costs him $20. Therefore, he is making a mistake to call your turn bet. When you fail to bet the turn, you are the one making a mistake."
You are actually avoiding making a mistake if your opponent would fold the turn if you bet but will call the river if you check the turn. You are luring him into giving you 1 big bet that he otherwise would not.
"I believe that failure to follow through with a bet on the turn in these situations is a weakness in many player's games."
I agree whole-heartedly if you have more than 1 opponent. When heads-up, my point is simply that checking is not done as a sign of weakness, it is done to gain a call on the river when one would not be possible on the turn. Also, you need to mix up your play. I don't suggest that you always check with A3 here (for the image reasons that you mention) but my point simply is that not enough thought is given to the EV of checking. Almost no one even considers it because they have this obsession of not giving a free card.
"If your opponent has Nine-Seven for two pair you do not save very much money by checking the turn. If a blank comes on the river, you will be calling his river bet anyway so you still lose $20. If you bet the turn and get raised, you will fold. Now all that you lose is the chance of hitting one of your 5 outs to win the pot at the river. How much is this worth? There is $75 in the pot and you will win another $20 or $40 at the river if you hit for a total of around $100. (Note that if an Ace shows up at the river you will win only an extra $20 and you might not win anything additional). This is worth about $11."
You actually have 8 outs so your loss in betting into 97 is a little greater than what you have calculated. That said, I acknowledge that your point still remains valid.
Gentlemen,
I'm wondering if you would give a free card if you have a strong but beatable hand. For example, in the above hand if you held Ad4d giving you two pair on the flop and a non-threatening card came on the turn (I prefer to bet the flop but that’s another discussion). Or if you make two pair on the turn. Is the free card here then a +EV play?
Thanks,
Jamie Collins
It can be but less so than in the A3 case. This is because now you want to be raised with a hand like 97, AJ etc. Note that there is no chance of being bluff checkraised as you are going to call the raise for sure.
"The reason that it is important to bet the turn is because most of the time your opponent will fold and there is usually enough money in the pot that it is worth it to try and protect your hand with a bet."
This isn't true a fair amount of the time if the pot is being contested heads up on the turn. If the pot is small-- and I'm too lazy to do the math right now, but let's say smaller than 5.5 bb's-- you can make a strong argument for checking if a) you've got a fairly big hand (a pair of A's qualifies, but I'd venture to say even a pair of K's and maybe a pair of Q's if the board carries a small pair) that isn't likely to be run down by a free card BUT that you'd like to show down cheaply, and b) if your opponent likes to check raise the turn. If your opponent plays very badly, then clearly you have to value bet. But, if your opponent likes to check raise on the expensive streets then you're facing two related issues; first, that you may have to lay down the best hand, and second, most opponents who like to check raise the turn with a draw or second pair are also the types who will bluff the river if you show weakness, or will call with a worse hand should you bet 5th st.
Again, these are specific conditions. But they come up often enough-- particularly in the mid limits, which is the exclusive concern of this forum-- as to warrant mention when discussing fourth street play. If, for instance, your playing a pot heads up or three handed against an astute opponent in the blind, he'll blow you off your hand everytime in this situation, since he knows you would have raised from late position coming in with a good A, and knows also that he can get you off a bad A.
20-40 Planet poker hand.
A very good player 2 spots off the button open-raises. I 3 bet him with AcQc. We take the flop heads-up. I respect his play a lot and think that he respects mine.
Flop: Q83 rainbow.
I bet and he calls.
Turn: 3
I checked behind him. My rationale was that my strong opponent could only have these hands.
1. AK
2. AQ/KQ
3. a set like QQ or 88.
4. AA or KK
5. JJ/TT and the like
A check from me would be no good if has KQ or AQ (although with AQ, we are probably going to chop when the smoke clears no matter what I do).
But a check would be fine if he has AK. While I give him a free card, he only has 3 outs. Plus, by checking, he will often have to check/call my river bet if a blank comes. Also, I let him draw dead to an Ace.
Of course, a check is fine if he has QQ, 88, AA, KK.
As for JJ, this can be heavily discounted because as a strong player, he will likely bet the flop with JJ to see how I react (rather than checkcall). Even if that thinking is wrong, I'll give hime the freebie 2 outer because my check on the turn will make him call me on the river. And knowing this player, he would likely have folded on the turn had I bet.
As it turned out, the river was a Queen and he bet into me. Although, he could have 88, I thought he would bet several other inferior hands for value including AA, KK, KQ, or JJ (assuming that I may call with AK). So, I raised and he paid off with KQ suited.
So, as it turned out, my check on the turn in this instance cost me a bet but if he had checkraised me on the turn (which he is capable of doing with the proper frequency), I may have laid it down given my respect for his play. In any event, I think this is a spot where checking the turn can often be the better play.
Note: against a different opponent, I may well bet the turn because I know that he will call on the turn and river with hands like AK and JJ. Hell, some try to checkraise way too often with hands like JJ and I would bet to invite a checkraise.
x
One minor point-- he probably wouldn't have to check-call with AK, since if he respects your play he "knows" (and, as always, this "knows" correlates to pot size) that you must be able to beat nut no pair if you three bet and a Q hit.
Nevertheless I see your point and agree wholeheartedly with your rationale for checking. If you had QJs (but I know you wouldn't three bet with this hand) the situation would be considerably different.
I apologize if this is not the correct board to post this question. I will be visiting LA this week and was wondering besides the Bycicle Club where else can you play midlimit holdem and lowlimit stud. Names and contact numbers will be appreciated because I have to find out where they are. Quan
10-20 online holdem.
7 yes 7 limpers to me, I raise on the button blinds fold the rest call. Flop comes 10 10 6. ALl check to middle position who bets 1 caller to me, I call, three call behind the better.
Turn is a 6. Certainly someone filled up here with all these callers right...But it is checked to me. I honestly do not think I have the best hand here so I check the turn. Good move?
River is a J. Early position better bets, all fold to me. I call he shows JQo and I take it down. Now you know the story a lot of you may suggest to bet the turn, but should I really bet it in this situation with so many players left?
With the board T-T-6-6, I would bet the turn to make sure someone with something like 9-8 goes out and you don't lose to a miracle card on the river. Same thing if there was a two-flush on board. If the board were, say, T-T-3-3 rainbow, then I'd be more incline to check because there's very little chance the free card could hurt me.
By the way, better to not post the outcome until later, as posting the results may subtlely (or not so subtlely) influence the responses.
Trying to be objective, I think you have to call the river, given the size of the pot and the fact that no one bet the turn.
A bet on the turn is a must IMO. I also think a raise on the flop is the right move for three reasons: 1. you may very well have the best hand; 2. you want to pressure the remaining 5 players who have yet to act and even the two that have acted; and 3. you want to see where your Aces stand, and you can't get that information by just calling the flop.
Keith
I would have played it like you with 7 limpers. When you are bet into on the flop I would assume he had a T. I wouldn't have laid it down, but I would have assumed he had a T.
Derrick
Derrick is the only one I agree with...maybe I sohuld have posted the results later...My thought was that if I bet on the turn I could very well get checkraised adn end off paying 3 big bets. If I raise the flop, I could still end up get checking raised by betting the turn.
absolutely not...you should have raised on the flop, and checked on the turn. alot of players would slowplay a set of tens anyways...and whoever calls two bets cold tells you something right there.
i agree. by raising the flop, easy for someone to go for checkraise on the turn ... which you check.
then call the river, or if checked to you i would bet.
also makes it easier to play if someone bets into you on the turn.
brad
Tough situation.
On the one hand, the pot is big and as Andy says, you don't want to have hands like 98 or even 33 sticking around for free as they surely would fold if you bet. That is, you don't mind if one or 2 players call your bet but you would hate to give everyone a free card which might conceivably create 8-10 outs against you on the river.
On the other hand, 4 players called the flop bet. Between the bettor and the other 3 callers, you gotta figure that someone's got a 10 and is sandbagging. Also, someone could have been dumb enough to call the flop bet with a 6 and wont go anywhere on the turn after he hit what he was looking to hit.
I don't know what the right play is. Pot is about $200. Maybe it's worth blowing $40 on the turn to avoid having a miracle card come down.
Maybe you could have avoided the dillemna by raising the flop. If someone coldcalls your raise, well then you have your guard up. But with your mere call on the flop, you encourage other guys to call but the problem is that you don't know what they are calling with which makes play on the turn difficult.
I agree with Andy that the check looks a lot better if the board was TT33 although even then, you may be giving free shots to pocket pairs. It is not inconceivable that there could be 3 pocket pairs out there. A bet may cause all of them to fold. By checking, you have to hope that one of the 6 bad cards (for you) don't get there.
The real question is, if you got check raised on the turn do you call? The answer to that question will help you answer your first question.
I think you should raise on the flop to see where you stand.
Same place, same game...I know every player but one at the table. In the 9 seat is a large man listening to music at full blast...and I mean full blast.
This guy had $600 when I sat down. Then all the sudden he decided that he would see EVERY flop for about 3 hours. Here are some hands that happened.
I have 22 on the button, 4 limpers, I call. Flop is A77. Everyone checks, I bet, music boy check raises, fold, fold, I call. Turn is a 6, he CHECKS. I'm lost. 9 comes on the river, he bets, I call. He shows me 29 offsuit. Yeah, he check raised me with 29o on an A77 flop. Guess he thought his duece was live too.
Another good one...he makes in $30 to go after an UTG raise and bets it hard the whole way...catches a 6 on the river, shows 64o vs. AK.
Anyways, eventually he reaches $2200. He played every hand with an sort of draw for over 3 hours. Gutshots, runner runner flushes, you name it. Only ONE time did he show down a quality hand... (Ace Queen of Hearts, made the flush on the turn - I had flopped a set of Tens of course).
So I'm stuck $800. I move to the other table, win a little back, then that games breaks and I'm forced to go back to the table from Hell. I had only been at the other table for about an hour and when I get back he is racking up his chips...he has $1050. He goes to cash in, comes back to the table and looks around. A nice younger lady asks "What are you looking for?" He responds "About $1200. dollars." She points down and says "Well, most of it is right here."
Nice ending to the night though, I have pocket 7's UTG. Button raises, 5 callers. I flop a set, 2 flush on the board. Flush comes on the turn, board pairs the river. Full house beats a make flush and AA on the button. Only ended up down $120. after being put on tilt - I really couldn't help it, honestly :)
Anyways, do you stay in a game like this or just get the hell out right away. I don't really see any strategy when some guy is that hot. Too bad I didn't stick around to see his demise but I couldn't stand it anymore.
huh?...you want to leave a game where a guy checkraises with 92 on a A77 flop and go into what... a game where everyone plays well? Of course, you should stay in the game unless you have bankroll considerations to worry about and cant stand the variance.
You also wrote:
"Too bad I didn't stick around to see his demise."
...well there you go...you answered your own question as to whether you should have stayed.
Actually, if you know you are on tilt you should leave no matter how good the game is.
Well, if you (objectively) think you have a positive expectation even while on tilt, you could stay. But I doubt most people can think clearly enough when on tilt to make this judgement. So you're right. :)
That is the main point I was trying to make. After I moved to the other table I calmed down and played well for the next 2 hours. The 22 hand is a perfect example, as when I am playing well I would NEVER call with cheese like that, but here I am playing it to the river. I feel that I made the right decision, even if this guy was destined to lose most of his chips back. I was in no state of mind to continue sitting at that table.
..emotional control skills.
If you can't enjoy & thrive(and have a big enough bankroll to handle the variance) playing against these types, you have no chance to beat the game long term.
I've seen Roy Cooke & Mason both muck hands with a little extra emphasis and a slight mutter to themselves, but I've never seen either moaning about a "bad beat" or "maniac", nor switch tables for any reason other than a better game or a must move.
BillM's Fundamental Theorem of Poker: "Bad beats" mean good games!
I don't see how you can give this player such a hard time for his play in the first hand. He probably noticed you were a tight player and maybe thought he could pick up the pot w/a checkraise (aftereveryone checks).
WHen you call the checkraise, he senses his play is over, and suspects you have 7 or A.
But when you check he strongly suspects this is not the case and thus bets the river when he hits.
Granted there are maniacs in alot of games and playing with them can be frustrating..., one should keep in mind though not all people play poker for the same reason you.
"I have 22 on the button, 4 limpers, I call. Flop is A77. Everyone checks, I bet, music boy check raises, fold, fold, I call. Turn is a 6, he CHECKS. I'm lost. 9 comes on the river, he bets, I call."
what a game.
brad
If you look in Mason's Advanced book for hold'em, I'm sure he gives advice on how to deal with a maniac, check the index in the back of the book.
10-20 online HE
Im in cutoff with KK. Early position limper, player before me raises, I reraise, limper calls, original raiser caps, we see flop 3 hadned.
Flop comes Jd 9d 2d. I have the Kd. No a bad flop. Checked to me I bet both call.
Turn a 2. Checked to me again I bet and get raised by the early position limper, reraiser folds...my play.
River a blank...my play? rEsults later.
Unfortunataely, Ad-xd is your opponent's most likely hand.
here is an opinion question To Switch Seats Or NOt
Say that there is 3 or four different tables were you play and the games are about the same And nothing is working for you were you are sitting, Do You Switch seats(tables or not)
What do you usually do?
Nothing can work if you aren't getting the cards. I haven't found switching seats to be very effective. It seems to me when it's not my day to win, it's not my day.
this is wrong. when you are running bad, you should obviously change seats. then, since the cards know you have changed seats to appease them, you should raise every time for ten minutes. don't worry if the flop doesn't look good for you; just put the chips in and watch as your longshots come in.
just be careful that no one else has recently changed seats, or you could be in trouble.
I heard this advice before, now that I have seen it in writing, I believe....
I only change seats in order to improve my position on certain opponents.
I was in an interesting game this weekend where there was a lot of seat switching going on.
A guy in seat 7 was taking bad beat after bad beat. A calling station kept hitting his 3 and four outers to blow up this guy's solid hand. He finally got frustrated and changed tables. The next two guys who switched to seat 7 went on heaters and got up after winning a couple racks. Pretty soon, all the other players were vying for the 'hot seat.'
Of course everyone was hooting at the guy who left, who could only shake his head.
I had been sitting to the left of the calling station, attempting to 2-bet him when he limped in with trash. It had mediocre results. The other players would not let me play headsup against him and I was just breaking even.
Later on, I noticed that when ever a player entered the 'hot seat' to my right, they would play many hands and cold call my raises.
So I switched to the left of the hot seat, had 2 people behind me playing trash, one paying off to the river and posted a nice win.
I think seat changing can be profitable, but only based opponents, not on 'seat luck.'
Recently started playing in a home game, 10-20 HE with 1/2 Kill. This is a crazy-wild game where 3/4 of the time it is 3 bet or capped with 5,6,7 way action. (there are three guys that see the flop in a capped pot with any two suited cards) Is it ever correct to call 3 or four bets on the button with six or seven way action (you know one of the blinds will be coming) with small pairs. Is the price of admission too high? My high cards aren't doing too well in this game. Are my implied odds getting killed with these small pairs in this type of game? If it is 7.5-1 to flop a set and it holds up 75% of the time when can I enter these pots with a crowd? I'm an aggressive 20-40 player in the casino but most pots are 2,3 and sometimes 4 way action. In the casino game I never enter a pot with small pairs multi-way unless I'm on the end and it only costs me one bet and sometimes two.(is this correct?) I'm a winning player at the casino but I'm getting killed in this home game. Please help me with this problem. It is a tough grind at the casino and it really kills me to blow money in this crazy home game. I drive home from this game talking to myself wondering how I lost to these guys who very seldom win at the casino. Please help!....and then what about A-little suited in the same situation?
loose aggressive games are the most frustrating games to play...it costs a lot of money to play, and if you tighten up, you are going to be sitting out of a lot of pots. i'm in a similar game, and i've been losing. i just realized that its because this loose aggressive game is basically like playing lotto - whoever gets the best cards that night wins. and holdem is the hardest one to play (in omaha8 and 7 h/l you can win by playing pure premium hands, and well after flop/4th street). in holdem, even aa,kk,ak aren't great hands with 7-8 callers because the flop will help someone. try dealing 8 hands of he (include an aa) and see how many times it holds up - not often.
my advice is to quit that game - it will just drive you crazy, and if you try and adjust your play to win, won't be any fun.
tootight--thanks for all your comments I appreciate them and believe what you say but I can't quit the game just yet although I have thought about packing it in. There still might be value there. I have to get in more hours. The game is close to home and is played during the week. (I play at the casino on weekends which is a two hr. drive) Anybody else have any comments. Jim B. could you comment. Does that 20 game at the Mirage ever get wild and crazy?
in my opinion the best way to beat these kind of games is play passively pre-flop even if you have a premium hand. if you know noone will be driven out just take a flop. in addition loosen your staring hand requirements slightly so you'll call a couple of bets with JTs. when your hand fits the flop then get aggressive and more often than not you'll be paid off, and if the flop doesn't fit....fold.
happened this weekend too!!
I have A5s in cutoff and limp after 2 other players went in. button raise and we take the flop 4 handed.
Flop
A 9 T (1 in my suit)
1st opponent bet 2nd fold
Now i know that the 1st opponent may be bettin a draw here since i saw him doing so in the past.
So i raised to see the strenght of the button
he reraise me :o(
when it came back to me, it was a 17:1 investment to see the 4th card, so i put in the extra 5. the rest is history, i made a backdoor nut flush draw to beat the nut straight and AK. My opponent couldnt beleive it when they saw my A5s.
SO do you agree with them that i played it bad and that i should have folded on the flop? (coz it surely was a raise or fold situation).
FYI, the initial raiser on the button could raise any hand between (approximatively!) AA-TT, AQ AJ AK ATs AKs AQs AJs KQs KJs
Ty for help
Charlie
i really question calling preflop with only 2 limpers, but after that the hand kind of plays itself.
brad
..he shoulda raised.
well damn if u get repopped i would lay down putting the raiser on AK. i would fold here. You're a huge dog to make ur backdoor and only a 5 will help ya. i would have folded, on the flop.
Wouldnt u put 1 more small bet when theres already 17 small bet in the pot. Heck i consider i have 4 outs (the 3 "5" plus the backdoor nut flush draw which = 1,5 out IMO)
For me after investin 2 small bet on the flop, in this situation, the 3rd 1 was automatic.
Charlie
Your 2nd argument is weaker than your first. A 2 or 3 in your suit does increase your odds of making the winning hand but it still doesn't put you in the lead. It's going to cost you a lot of money for the times that you put in one more bet just to give you a card that only increases your odds. Save the money if your opponent is in the lead. You needed perfect-perfect and got lucky.
im just saying you need two perfect cards to beat his hand imo. u raise to test him right? so when he reraises i think he passes the test and i would muck. just my opinion :)
Raiser limped pre-flop, so I wouldn't put him on A-K (It's unclear from post who did have A-K). Me, I'm going to raise with hands like K-T, K-9, K-J, Q-J, and 8-7. The back-door flush draw, the size of the pot, plus the possibility of catching a 5, plus the chance that raiser would raise with relatively weak hands, as indicated by poster, makes call correct, IMHO.
Don Heftolo,
Somber Brotherhood
http://www.desetka.si/somber
Not sure if this is relevant, but I'd have raised before the flop (or folded, depending on who is already in), and that surely changes everything. When the button reraises, now I'm safe. I bet the flop, he raises, I either take one off or fold depending on the feel of things. With the board on this hand, and a player calling two-cold, I'd most likely fold. If by some fluke I folded the best hand, or folded a hand that should have paid one small bet to drawn to hit a five, it isn't wrong by much, and it was likely to be expensive to get to a showdown.
It looks like a lot of bets flying around with a bogus hand, but think about it. This is the WORST that can happen by raising this hand before the flop, and it ain't so bad.
In the meantime, most of the time the player you described on the button will fold, and we're home free, with position, a decent hand, and all the many bonuses that come from being the only preflop raiser.
I'm wondering if you had any indication of how the button felt about his hand before he acted. Preflop, from the cutoff, look left!
Tommy
I need some advice.
I'm a young guy still trying to learn the ropes of the game. I have been playing the game sporatically for about a year now and have been realistically studying it for about 6 months. The game I usually find myself in is a 6-12 hold'em game that is very loose. The agression of this game varies greatly. In the past few months I have been slightly ahead of the game (to the tune of about a whopping $30) but have been stung time and again by the loose calling "catchers." I know that weak loose games are historically ver profitable to play in, but I have found this not to necessarily be the case.
For example: lets say I have AcAs in middle position and seven people (including Myself) see the flop for a raise. The flop comes Jh 4h 5d. The first three players check to me, I bet. Call, Call, raise, call, call, fold...now its my turn I call. The turn comes a 6h making the board Jh4h5d6h. The odds of my aces being good here against five others must be terribly low. I muck my hand in this situation losing 4 small bets on the guaranteed best starting hand. My point is that people playing to many hands and going to far with them can be profitable but not if the standard is for 70% of the table to practice this loose mehtod on practically every hand. Certainly in these situations I play more hands that fair well loose games such as suted connectors etc. But what am I supposed to do...lay down pocket aces pre-flop? There is also a 15-30 game at this casino that is described by a good friend who plays in it as "weak moderately tight." To me the 15-30 sounds like a better overall game but it would require me to play a game that is more than double the stakes of my current game. This brings me to a bankroll question. I want to advance my game and technically I can afford to sit in this higher limit albeit not as comfortably as I could at 6-12. I eventually want to make poker a viable way to supplement my income but I don't know whether I can do it at such a game as the previously described 6-12. Any advice would be helpful and thank oyu for reading through this lengthy post.
This is not to sound mean spirited, but if you can't beat the 6-12 you are not going to be able to beat the 15-30. It sounds like you could use some more playing time.
Best of Luck.
"I need some advice."
OK.
"I'm a young guy still trying to learn the ropes of the game. I have been playing the game sporatically for about a year now and have been realistically studying it for about 6 months."
You need a lot more hours of both play and study.
"In the past few months I have been slightly ahead of the game (to the tune of about a whopping $30) but have been stung time and again by the loose calling "catchers"."
Decent start, nothing out of the ordinary. We know that you have some clue how to play.
"I know that weak loose games are historically very profitable to play in, but I have found this not to necessarily be the case. "
An incredibly wrong statement, and a very dangerous mindset to start slipping into.
"For example: lets say I have AcAs in middle position and seven people (including Myself) see the flop for a raise. The flop comes Jh 4h 5d. The first three players check to me, I bet. Call, Call, raise, call, call, fold...now its my turn I call. The turn comes a 6h making the board Jh4h5d6h. The odds of my aces being good here against five others must be terribly low. I muck my hand..."
Typical hand. You made the correct play. Sounds like a wonderful game.
"My point is that people playing too many hands and going too far with them can be profitable but not if the standard is for 70% of the table to practice this loose mehtod on practically every hand."
W-R-O-N-G. I'm making $77/hr in a 15-30 game that plays just like this.
"Certainly in these situations I play more hands that fare well in loose games such as suited connectors, etc."
A correct adjustment.
"But what am I supposed to do...lay down pocket aces pre-flop?
Quit whining. You didn't ask for a deck change after this hand, did you?
"There is also a 15-30 game at this casino that is described by a good friend who plays in it as "weak moderately tight." To me the 15-30 sounds like a better overall game but it would require me to play a game that is more than double the stakes of my current game."
Actually, the 15-30 probably IS a better game(i.e SKP or JimB would prolly make at least $50/hr in it, as opposed to ~$30/hr in the 6-12), but you don't have the skills, exp, or bankroll to beat it yet.
Keep practicing and studying, and remember BillM's Fundamental Theorem of Poker: "Bad beats" mean good games!
p.s. Can you see how losing that AA hand was not a "bad beat"?
It is unwise to move up unless you are a solid winner at the level at which you are already playing. With many players, and a board on the turn which contains both a 3-flush and a 3-straight, your aces probably should indeed be mucked. Losing only 4 small bets when you lose with pocket Aces is not a disaster. I guarantee you will lose a lot more than that when you lose with Aces in a bigger game. Next hand.
Today, in a 30-60 game, I raised under the gun with red pocket kings. A late position player made it 3 bets; sb folded, big blind, a poor player, called and we took the flop 3-handed.
Flop was 9c-3s-2s. BB checked; I bet; original raiser raised; BB cold-called; I re-raised, both opponents called. Turn was Kc, given me a set of Kings. BB checked; I bet; both opponents called. River was Tc, making board 9c-3s-2s-Kc-Tc. Big blind bet; I called; original raiser folded. Big blind showed 6c-4c to win the pot with a runner-runner flush after cold-calling two bets before the flop and again cold-calling two bets on the flop with an inside straight draw.
It happens. It's not important whether or not his play on this particular hand was good or bad. I told him nice hand and we played another. He played a lot of hands and a lot of them much more poorly than this one. I ended up winning $1500 in the game, a lot of it from the poor player who made the flush, who ended up broke. You're going to be drawn out on by the poorer players more than you draw out on them simply because they'll be taking the worst of it more often than you do. Play your best game, play a lot of suited hands, especially if you can get in for one bet pre-flop, and then do all you can to win the pot when it gets big, rather than thinking about saving bets, or worse, thinking about the four small bets you lost on the previous hand with pocket Aces.
Good luck.
"I have AcAs in middle position and seven people (including Myself) see the flop for a raise. The flop comes Jh 4h 5d. The first three players check to me, I bet. Call, Call, raise, call, call, fold...now its my turn I call."
Why not re-raise? I think you may not want to complain about people playing hands too far if you let them get there cheaply (or relatively cheaply). Im not sure why you would be scared by the first raiser; he could have any number of things: any jack (according to your description of the game), open ended straight draw, flush draw, who knows?
If you want to play this passively, I really don't think you are ready to move up (no offense).
David
If you cant win money at a loose-aggresive 6/12 game then you dont need to be going to a 15/30 game.
People love to beat on low-limit players. You're doing fine.
If there's a percentage rake, you are probably making about 1BB an hour by breaking even. If there's a $3 drop, you are beating the game for over 2BB per hour. Do you also pay for food with chips and not account for it?
A truly loose wild 6-12 game with 4-5 players going to the river can kill you in the short run due to the variance. These games are especially brutal psychologically.
$15-30 can offer much more consistency and a higher mean. Why not go for it? You will have to unlearn bad habits from $6-12. E.g., play many fewer hands, make key folds on the turn, read players and play individuals, raise more, and so on. It requires more discipline and work, but if you've gotten this far you can do it.
The key step is controlling tilt and the urge to gamble. This is an ongoing project for most players, myself included. You should play very tightly and very consistently, especially while learning. Decide in advance on tight starting requirements for each position and prove to yourself that you can stick to them. A good starting point is dropping off the bottom recommended group from the S&M lists for early and middle position and dropping off the bottom three groups (yes, three) for the cutoff, button and blinds. Can you master that discipline? That's really the point of the exercise. Do you still have that discipline after three hours of play and two harsh beats? If not, play 2 hour sessions. You may find Zen and the Art of Poker inspiring.
Also, you get only one bluff bet per 3 hours, and you have to raise every time when first in from the button or cutoff.
As a last step in first advice, if you can find a seasoned pro (preferably an older one) to mentor you, do it.
Good luck! Don't let 'em get you down.
Matt
Thank you all very much for your input.
Let me say that the hand I described was purely an example of how hands regularly play out in that particular game. It wasn't an actual hand. If it were a real hand, I would not have considered it a bad beat at all. It was a typical hand with a typical result in that game.
The point that I was trying to make is that hands like high pocket pairs or AK (unsuited) usually don't seem to fare well in games that consistently have 5-7 players seeing the river. However, maybe my thoughts on this are incorrect. I wasn't trying to whine. I was just looking for some insight in regards to playing these types of hands in these types of situations.
Thank you all again for the advice. Oh...one moe question sort of related to my previous inquiry.
What is a proper bankroll to start looking to the higher limit tables? Maybe that's an impossible question to answer, but any ideas would be greatly appreciated. I'm honestly trying to figure out a way to attack the game from all angles.
THANK YOU
P_mouth
Play fewer hands. Observe your opponents. If in doubt about a hand, muck it preflop. Keep track of the hands you play. Did you play KJ in early position....bad boy! Wait, wait, wait. Can you identify mistakes that other people make in the game? Fine, stay in the game. Better yet, find a home and avoid the rake. It is VERY difficult to beat the rake plus the players in a casino.
It could take you years to be a winner or you may never be a winner. You must have patience.
Good Luck.
10-20 online HE
1) Im in the BB with pocket 4's. A ll fold to the button who raises, sb folds i should definetly call rgiht? Flop comes A K Q of clubs. I dont even have one so i fold. Should I have called preflop?
2) I have QQ in late position. Theres a poster right before me, and all fold to him who raises, I reraise, bb calls, he calls. Flop comes J 5 2 rainbow. BB bets, call I raise, bb calls limpre folds. Turn J. He bets... my play?
3) KTo on the button. I usually dont even play this but i just decided what the hell. 2 limpers to me, I call, sb calls bb checks. Flop K 8 4. SB bets out, fold call, raise. Call or fold here? I dunno the raiser well wuts my play?
1) you have to call preflop, in fact your decision should be whether to call or raise not whether to fold or call. (you are looking at an obvious steal raise, and are a favorite against these hands).
You got an unlucky flop...
2)What do you know about the BB? I suspect he has a J as the only draw is the straight draw. Will he bet out any pair when he suspects you have none!? (esp when you 3 bet the flop!?) I think this play is very player dependent thought against alot of players a fold is in order.
I think it is a fold or raise situation. I would ususally fold here because there will be 2 or 3 overcards on the flop soooo often. If I raise I lead bet the flop regardless of what comes.
Derrick
I'll just answer the first question.
Yes you should call before the flop. Part of the reason for this is that you need to call enough so that the raiser in steal position does not show an automatic profit before the flop.
This idea also applies to the flop. You again need to call a fair amount that your opponent won't show an automatic profit by always betting. However, this flop has come so bad that you should now fold.
How do you just call???? It is a riase or fold situation. He has only two outs to hit by just calling,if he raises at least he can try to pick up the pot on the flop if the guy is just trying to steal the blinds.
Why can't he try to occasionally pick up the flop anyway?
I see what you mean but i am just saying a small pair which is raised by a steal position seems more like a reraise situation for me. If i had connected cards then i would just call or even a medium pair i would just call. Pocket 4's in my opinion on a steal raise,i think a reraise is called for.
When someone raises in a steal position and you are in the big blind and no one else is in, we recommend in HPFAP-21 that you should reraise approximately one-fourth of the time that you should play. Most of these raises should be done with your best hands, but there is certainly nothing wrong in reraising with some of the weaker hands and this can include something like a pair of fours.
I just said that.
"This idea also applies to the flop. You again need to call a fair amount that your opponent won't show an automatic profit by always betting. However, this flop has come so bad that you should now fold."
Leading out on this flop is a good play against some players (overly tight) but these types seem hard to find nowadays. If they are on a short table they will be wiped out fast. Most of the time this flop bet will be raised (beat or not) and is a waste of money. Check folding the flop here looks right most of the time. I doubt even Abdul Jalib would think he's locked to the showdown here.
Regards.
No,you don't call,you have no odds to call. that should be basic knowledge.
Basic odds say call. The stealer is going to miss the flop 65% of the time, and you already have a made pair. What odds are you talking about?
Ummmm, I think they are called pot odds. Since you have 3 to 1 to call his raise with a pair of fours. Not the best in my opinion. And then with that flop that came you roughly need pot odds of 23 to 1 to call since there is no straight possibilty for him. But if you like to just call with fours on a SUPPOSED steal raise that is your problem. As Mason restated what i said your supposed to reriase with that hand 25 percent of the time. I think it is too weak to just call with since not only will an over card beat you but anything abouve a 4 will too.
Oh and as far as odds go,for me at least,i usually like about 5 to 1 to just call with 4's. So unless he decides to reraise that 1/4 of a time with that hand, it is a VERY VERY weak call. He should just save his money for the small blind.
Oh and as far as odds go,for me at least,i usually like about 5 to 1 to just call with 4's. So unless he decides to reraise that 1/4 of a time with that hand, it is a VERY VERY weak play. He should just save his money for the small blind. But if you like the way it was played......more power to you.
Here is a hand I played in a 10-20 game recently: Two players limp in middle position, the button limps, I call with As Kc in the small blind, the big blind checks. There are 5 players and 5 small bets in the pot.
The flop is Ah 3h 3d.
I check, it gets checked around. There are still 5 players and 2.5 big bets in the pot.
The turn is the 8h.
I check, the big blind, who is a tight player, bets, a solid player calls in middle position, everyone else folds to me, I call. There are 3 players and 5.5 big bets in the pot.
The river is the Ts.
The big blind checks, the next player bets, I call. The big blind shows a small flush and folds. The river bettor shows Ad Qh, so my AK is good.
Of course the big blind was furious that he folded the best hand. He could not believe that I called on the turn and river. My reasoning was that someone with a flush draw would have likely bet the flop, so when he comes out betting on the turn, he doesn't have to have a flush. Furthermore, when the other player only calls on the turn, I know he doesn't have a flush, so I think that my call on the turn was appropriate. When the river is not a fourth heart, and the big blind checks, I think that I have to call the middle position player's bet. What does everyone else think?
I probably would have raised preflop but having not raised I think a bet is often going to be read as a position bet particularly on this board (so I would bet with what is probably the best hand). As for your play on the other streets I think laying down was out of the question and I might have even raised on the river. -Ben
I call with As Kc in the small blind.
The flop is Ah 3h 3d. I check.
Don Heftolo,
Somber Brotherhood
http://www.desetka.si/somber
I think you should have lead bet the flop. Sure, you'll lose a bit more money if someone has a three, but there is a two-flush out there and someone-- God knows who, but someone-- could be looking for a free card to complete the wheel.
If the pot was heads up, or three-ways, then I think you can make a strong argument for slowplaying the A a little. Or even if you had a heart in your hand. But, given that the presence of more hearts will severely compromise your hand, and that you've got four opponents, a bet on the flop wouldn't be a bad idea.
All that being said, the BB is a moron. What the hell'd he think YOU had? If this guy's in the habit of tossing flushes just because the board pairs-- especially in a four handed pot where nobody's shown any aggression-- then you definitely want to keep him on your left.
first word of advice: hold em is a game for aggressive bettors - if you want to be cautious or timid, play 7stud or hilo (omaha or 7). you missed a bet before the flop and why you didn't bet or check-raise the flop is a mystery to me.
i just can't believe that someone folded the river with a flush for one measly bet (especially since he was last to act). wow!!!!
Well to be honest, u played this hand like a weak-tight player....
On the flop you are over 80% sure to have the best hand then... How cant u bet? U dont want to give a free card to the draws and you want to know it now if someone has a 3!!
Honestly, i would have raise pre flop bet the flop bet the turn (and fold if raised by a decent player) and maybe just check the river if i think im beaten.
And u know what?
i would have prolly lost the hand to the small flush. However, long term, i think im a winner playing the hand this way..
Charlie
I went for a check raise on the flop. Unfortunately, no one bet. I do not agree that you should automatically bet the flop just because there is a two-flush on board. First of all, the flush draws are going to call if you bet, but they are making a bigger mistake if they are forced to call two bets cold as a result of your check-raising a late position player. Raising pre-flop from the small blind with AK offsuit once three people are already is debateable. Sure, your hand is likely best in an unraised pot, but you are out of position, no one who is already in is going to fold, and this is a game in which the players not only play too many hands, but go too far with them.
The flush draws are not making a mistake drawing against your hand, and calling two against it isn't a mistake either. (Im thinking of a mistake in the sense of the FTOP, that is acting differently than you would if you knew what hand your opponent held).
I don't think raising w/AKo in the blinds is debatable for the reasons you mention. You will hit the flop w/top pair about 1/3 of the time and since you have more than 2 opponents you are making money if you raise.
You are correct that the flush draws are not making a mistake calling a raise cold on the flop. I should have said that it would reduce their odds.
It amazes me when people make these kind of laydowns. It usually occurs because someone, whether rightly or wrongly, is able to reason out that they probably don't have the best hand. The problem is that they are not taking into account the size of the pot. Thus to be able to correctly fold a small flush here you must be able to correctly reason that your flush will only be good a very small percentage of the time. Furthermore, if you do come to that conclusion based on the way this hand is played, you are not understanding the play of the hand very well.
obviously you were lucky to win this hand.
two things I would think about:
1. why did you call the turn when there is a 3 flush on board and a tight player leads into a crowded field and gets callers? you have no redraw.
2. Why did you call the river when you still have a player left to act and have very little chance of having the best hand?
You should have raised pre-flop (esp. with a tight player in the BB). Since you didn't raise pre-flop, I like the idea of going for a check raise on this table. (How does A-Q not bet this flop????).
On the turn what hand did you put the BB on. If he's so tight as to fold a flush on the river you made a mistake calling on the turn. You should've either folded or check-raised to get him to lay down his flush there. You were drawing very thin to beat him (whether he had the 3 or the flush) so I can't see just calling him.
I'm in the big blind and have Qs-7s and there are 7 players in the pot with no raise. Flop comes 4s4h6s . UTG bet all fold but the button . I call. Turn is 2d UTG bet again button calls and i ckeckraise trying to pretend a monster. At least if i get called i have a flush draw. UTG calls .. button folds . River is 3c. I bet out..... result later. What you think ?
If the 2 players remaining can lay down a hand, this is a good play. If either one won't it is a bad play. Again, only bet the river if you think the person remaining can fold. Hopefully he was on a draw as well.
Derrick
It is an okay move against one opponent that will fold a decent hand, but its a waste of money against 2 opponents.
How are you gonna get 2 people to fold the river? What do you think that they have? You have NOTHING! Even if they have nothing, they could still have more than you! Likely, somebody's got something (at least an overpair by UTG, and there's probably something else that's bigger)! The only hand that will lay down is 5-x, but what hands would be available with a 5 that wouldn't call you? A-5s? 55 (worth a call with the huge pot). So, you're banking both people missing their hands... only one dude can have A-5s, I doubt 2 overcards here with the check-raise on the turn.
I won the hand.... UTG fold ... didn't showed his cards
Sounds like these guys are complete morons. Their games are so hopeless that you could probably run all over them. You shouldn't have to make any plays like these to win big. I've never seen a limit game where a move like this would work. A tough player will call you, a sucker will call you, just about everybody will call you on the river (and they are getting odds to, especially with the action on the turn). I just have one important question: where was this game? I've got to go!!!!!!!!
"I've never seen a limit game where a move like this would work. A tough player will call you, a sucker will call you, just about everybody will call you on the river..."
heheh, Hey Sucker, the fact that you have never run a successful semi-bluff is probably more a reflection on your style of play than the game itself. I mean, you have to have at least a little bit of rock equity to pull this play off. later, Boris
I don't think that this is a semi-bluff anymore. You have no more cards to come, and anyone who's still around shouldn't fold on the river (unless they missed their bigger flush draw, I suppose), and they'll beat your Q high. I love the play until the end. BTW: If you only think that I play the nuts and never semi bluff, that's exactly what I what you to think. If you think that I'm a maniac, that's fine too - it's just amazing that I'm getting all those made hands... It's all about deception. Of course, I'm just another sucker, so you guys are eating me alive:-)
I think this play is fine as long as you follow through with a bet on the river and UTG has shown that he/she can fold.
one other point, with 7 players and no raise it sounds like a pretty good game where you shouldn't have to resort to these sort of tricky tactics. I save these shenanigans for the tougher games.
you lose to a set.
Greetings,
Here are a few 10/20 hands I played recently.
1) All fold to a tight players who open raises in middle position, I have KhKd and reraise, all fold except the initial raiser who just calls.
the flop is QJT w/two spades. Check, I bet call.
TUrn is a small spade, he checks, I bet he raises. I call.
River is another spade. He bets. I call (seems bad but getting 7-1 i suspect I can win often enough for it to be correct).
He shows KQo w/ Ks.
2) All fold to a tight player in late position. All fold to me and I call in the BB w/ 4c5c.
The flop comes A 2 8 rainbow w/one of my suit. He bets and says ," I have an Ace". (I suspect I will get criticism here but I have 4 outs to the nuts if he doesn't have a pair (or an A) he could easily check the turn , finally I though Id get some action out of him (to the tune of 3 BB if I hit and he had an A).
I call.
The turn is an offsuit 3. I check he bets I raise he folds. (So much for the tune of 3BB..)
Should I check and call the turn and check raise the river!? ( I think betting out the turn would cause him to fold if he didn't have an A, and even if he had an A...) Seems there should be a way to get more money out of him. Comments!?
3)A very aggressive player open raises in the cuttoff all fold to me in the BB w/ 22. I call. (I suspect a reraise wouldn't be out of the Q as a) I may well have the best hand b) I can and have blown him off the best hand in the past).
THe flop is Q 8 4 rainbow. I check and call, turn is a 5 I check he checks.
River is another 4, I check and call.
I suspect the real question regarding this hand is whether I can blow him off his hand earlier as I pbly have the best hand on the flop. Would check raising the flop and betting out on the turn be better!?
One even suggested I should bet the river but this seems dumb to me as he will pbly fold if he has no pair, and checking does induce a bluff. (It did he has K high).
It seems you have alot of gamble in you to call with 3 to1 odds for a gut shot.
5 1/2 to 1, however I thought w/the implied odds it (I assumed I could win 3 BB if I hit).
Your call with 45s heads-up is fine. In fact, its almost automatic. You have an inside straight draw to the nuts, a backdoor flush draw, and its probably even money that any 4 or any 5 is a winner. Even if the 3 doesnt come on the turn, I would bet into him.
Hand #1) You 3-bet preflop. The flop comes QJT. He has to be scared that you have AK. He has to think that you hit the flop hard or have an overpair. I like his checkraise on the turn when the third suited card hit, since there is a chance that you will fold an overpair or even a straight unless you have the ace of spades. So your call on the turn is correct. However, when another spade hits the river, the probability that he has a spade combined with the probability that he has a straight or two pair is so high that you would need to be getting higher pot odds to call. 7-1 = 1 in 8 = 12.5%, so your call is not terrible, but I would think that your chance of being good is somewhere between 5%-10%.
Hand 2) I would have folded preflop since I was only getting 3-1 (rake will subtract nearly half a small bet by the time you win this hand). Suited cards mean very little heads up, and you have absolutely no high card value. Given that you called, I would have checked and folded on the flop since I was only getting 5-1, but it is closer than I would have thought. First, he could easily have an ace or 8, and your 4 or 5 on the turn could lose on the river. So even if you hit a 4 or 5, you cannot bet with any confidence. When you are not good with the 4 or 5, you will lose 2 BB when you check and call the turn and river. A runner-runner flush draw is 29-1, so it adds very little to your hand. The inside straight draw is interesting, though. If you were absolutely certain that you could extract 3 BB if you hit, then you will exactly break even. But if you are wrong and only extract one or two BB, then you have lost money. So overall, I would fold on the flop. (I would say there is almost no chance that you could extract more than 3BB, so I will neglect that possibility.)
Hand 3) I would call with 22 heads up preflop, but it is a very difficult hand to play. I would hope for 3 small cards on the flop. You can very easily be pushed off the best hand on the flop or turn if big cards hit, and you can not bet with confidence, especially considering you are out of position. On the flop, he pretty much denied having a Q or 8 unless he is slowplaying AQ, AA, KK, or a set. So I would bet the turn when the blank 5 hit. He most likely has nothing, and you would like him to fold. No free card. Given that the turn got checked around, I would have checked (hopefully inducing a bluff) as you did, although there are some loose-goosey calling stations that would call your bet with AK or AJ.
palpatine
I misread hand #3, so disregard my analysis of the hand.
palpatine
Jim Brier's excellent CP article brought to mind a hand I played recently that I'm still a bit unsure about. It took place in a 10-20 game that was pretty typical.
Pre-flop: Middle player limps first in, I'm next w/Kd Kc and raise. Rest fold to Button who cold calls. SB folds, BB calls, limper calls, and we see flop 4-handed.
Flop: Qs 8s 5d. Checked to me, I bet, and all call.
Turn: 2c. Checked to me, I bet, button now raises, BB and limper fold, and it's up to me. The button is loose and not especially aggressive, but not a calling station either. I'm worried I'm up against a set, but he could be semi-bluffing a flush draw. Also, he might have something like A-Q and figure raise now and then check the river.
Question: Should I call his turn raise or fold?
I'll post the results below.
Thanks,
Caddy
I would call. If the suit doesn't hit on the river I would check call.
Derrick
call check call
in my experiences lately when I get raised like this Im usually up against two pair or a set. Thus unless im getting the odds I toss. If he had AQ I think he mighta tried to raise on the flop to see where he stood..
i think you should reraise,i would put him on KQ,most likely spades. and see how the hands goes from there.
No easy answers. Completely player dependant. You should usually call the raise and check/call the river. Occasionally, you should reraise the turn and rarer yet, you can fold.
I would call, then bet out on river.
Highly unlikely he has 4 spades. Why would he want to knock out the players behind him.
If he had flopped a set, or had (AQ)on the flop, he would have raised to protect his hand and cut the pot odds of anyone with a 4 flush.
I would say he has a Q with a weak kicker, and is raising to get the pot heads up.
I called the raise on the turn. The river was an offsuit 2, pairing the board. I checked, he bet, and I called. I figured the 2 maybe helped me a little since I now could beat him if he had a two pair hand like 8-5 or Q-8 - unlikely, but he was a loose player. Well anyway, he showed 5-5 and took it down w/the fullhouse.
On the turn, my read was he had a set. I felt like this player wasn't tricky/savvy/aggressive enough to semi-bluff raise w/a flush draw. However, I just couldn't bring myself to laydown the overpair. As SKP noted, this situation is very player dependent, and I think just maybe in this particular case the laydown was correct. Or maybe I'm just playing results. :->
Thanks for the responses,
Caddy
There are too many ways to outsmart yourself here. He could have QQ 88 and 55, or even AQ AA or KK (and waited until the turn to raise, to give his raise more oooomph against draws). An agressive player may be testing you, hoping you have slick; AK would be a difficult hand to call with.
Your call is correct against all but the rockiest rock. I would lay this down rarely if ever.
(If the hands in play are as listed above, mathmatically you are a taking a little the worst of it, but pot odds make this about even, and you have a slim redraw.)
A9
very loose 40/80 game....I am in th big blind with J6o. 4 players limp, the SB calls, I check. 6 of us in, $240 in the pot.
The flop comes JsTd3c
The small blind bets out. THe small blind has been (along with me and another guy) playing fairly tight. I put him on either a J, a T or a open-ended straight draw. If he has a J, I'm in deep trouble with my 6 kicker. If he has a T, I still may be in trouble since there are 4 preflop limpers behind me, and one of them could easily have a hand like QJ, JT, or J9 (even KJ or AJ, although with the type of players here, they may have raised in early position with those).
So, I fold.
Do you have any other move?
Your play is correct. This is a simple fold.
Doc,
This is an easy fold IMO. I would go as far as saying that QJ or KJ would be the borderline hand(s) in this spot, and you would probably want to raise rather than call with either.
Even if the small blind flop bettor was loose and aggressive (so you thought you were a slight favorite to be leading him), the four players behind in combination are likely to have hit this flop with a draw or a made hand that is probably much better than yours. In either case, you won't get them out with a raise and you can't handle a raise from them.
On a side note, lets say I called one chip (in a 15/30 structure) with this hand in the small blind and the big blind bet out into four typical limpers after I checked (note that I might bet a more ragged jack high flop). Even if all four limpers folded, I don't think this is a good call against most opponents. The fact that my opponent led into five opponents on a flop that usually hits a field of limpers makes his hand a big favorite over mine. I don't think the dead money makes it worth calling down. Comments?
Regards,
Rick
I agree that the fold in Doc's hand is correct. It's a bit like the example S & M give in HPFAP about playing K-5s in late position when you can come in for one bet in a loose game. There are just some situations where you fold even if you hit your king.
As for the situation you describe, I think I (at least) call rather than fold. There is, in the 15-30 game, $105 in the pot. If I think there is some reasonable chance that the bettor has K-Q or Q-9 or A-T, or J-x, you're getting 7:1 on your call. I also think the decision is a function of my opponent's level of skill, because this largely determines how much I can win when my jack is good and how much I will lose when it's not.
Andy,
You wrote: “As for the situation you describe, I think I (at least) call rather than fold. There is, in the 15-30 game, $105 in the pot. If I think there is some reasonable chance that the bettor has K-Q or Q-9 or A-T, or J-x, you're getting 7:1 on your call.”
If the opponent is typical/average (not a maniac), the only hand from the above hands you mention that might lead into five opponents (one of whom has already checked in the small blind) with a flop of Js-Td-3c might be the KQ or perhaps the Jx (although I would think leading with the latter is a very bad play). It just seems that you are either trailing by a lot most of the time and highly vulnerable the rest of the time. And you will almost never hit a card where you would want to raise with impunity.
”I also think the decision is a function of my opponent's level of skill, because this largely determines how much I can win when my jack is good and how much I will lose when it's not.”
Well put. This is always a factor. An opponent who won't often follow up their flop bet with a turn bet (and if they do it means they are strong) or who won't go for full value could be called, at least on the flop. So can someone who bets way too much. But a rational blind shouldn't be leading into a flop with a jack and ten in it without a big draw or a decent hand.
Regards,
Rick
Rather loose 10-20 hand, I have 56 spades 3 from button. 3 callers in before me, I look to my left and see a fold and two callers - I decide to call. player to my left calls, fold, call, button raises (thought he'd call) - sb folds, bb calls, 3 limpers call, I call, 1 off button raises - button calls, bb caps, 3 callers and I call - 7 handed.
4s-As-8h on flop. bb bets, 3 callers, I raise, 2 players to my left fold, bb calls, 2 more call. Ks on turn, checked to me, I bet, bb calls. River 3d I bet and bb calls and mucks.
Comments?
Revised - I mistakenly have 8 callers pre-flop, in fact there were 7, after my call there was a call, a fold - then the button raised.
Kevin,
Before the flop with a marginal hand I also like to inauspiciously look to my left but it is unreliable for more than one or two players. Trying this hard to collect “carelessness tells” will usually give away the fact you are looking for this information and opponents will notice and counter by being more careful or giving off false indications of their actual intentions. So don't overdue this.
After three limpers 65 suited is marginal with three more players plus the blinds yet to act. If the game is generally passive it probably isn't too wrong to call here (and you hope for more callers) but usually save this call for the cutoff and button (with one or two more callers in front) or call with a discount in the blinds. Once you made the initial two calls it was marginally correct to call two more bets cold since you have enough opponents to make your straight and flush draws profitable despite a hand lacking any high card strength.
On the flop I like the raise after three players called the lead bet. You are getting value on your draw (note the additional backdoor straight draw) although you usually will not get the free card with a pot this big. One problem was the danger of a reraise by the lead bettor, which may have driven out an early caller or two.
After the other players called the flop, the turn and river play seem routine once you made your flush. Nice hand.
Regards,
Rick
Do you really think that the flop raise is a good raise for value? He is not drawing to the nut flush. There are 9 spades and 3 non-spade 7's for a total of 12 outs, but the spades might not be outs, especially when 3 limpers just call that A-rag-rag 2-suited flop.
Steve,
Flush over flush is a concern, especially in a loose game where players limp with Q-X suited. But I still think there is enough overlay there. I missed the inside straight draw so I like the raise even more.
Regards,
Rick
Steve, there's 28 SB's in the pot pre-flop. People will call the turn card with virtually anything. One can't take the number of limper into consideration here with regards to higher flush draws.
lars
I wonder what the 3 limpers had that they could have called on the flop, but not have been on a flush draw. It sounds like you were in a very good game. So I can understand how you succumbed to the temptation to play 56s. However, I would not have played it.
I don't think that I would have raised on the flop. I am assuming that you were raising to get a free card on the turn. But I would expect to be re-raised most of the time in this situation.
The bet on the turn is scary, but probably correct if the 3 limpers are bad players. With 4 opponents there is almost certainly someone drawing to a bigger flush. The problem is what to do if one of the limpers check-raises you. In this case the raiser very likely has a flush, and therfore almost certainly has you beat. But are you going to fold in this huge pot? I wouldn't, especially against a poor playing limper who may well have K8.
Once it gets down to you and the big blind on the river it is much safer to bet, and clear that you should. The big blind probably has an A, and therefore does not have a flush, and he will call you down.
Steve
"I wonder what the 3 limpers had that they could have called on the flop, but not have been on a flush draw."
There were 28 small bets in the pot before the flop, so people would be correct to call with all kinds of hands.
10-20 online game. Not a bad game actually.
UTG raises, I reraise with KK, all fold to bb who calls two cold and original raiser.
Flop comes Q 8 5 rainbow. BB bets out, limper calls I raise, bb reraise, limper still calls two cold I call. I smell a rat thinking I might be up against the cold caller.
Turn is a 9. BB bets out and Utg raises, I think Im dead here, so good idea to toss? Results later.
Yes, I think your are either dead or way behind (two outs). Even a low board-pair is not likely to save you. Even if UTG is a maniac, you are probably behind to either BB or the maniac hitting his cards (JT, Q9, 88, 55, 99 all cards that a maniac could come in for a raise with UTG).
I've rarely seen a more simple fold of an overpair.
lars
It is unlikely that the nine helped UTG. It seems unlikely that he would have called 2 bets cold before the flop and on the flop with JT. I'd put UTG on AA, KK, QQ, or AQ. Maybe he is a looney tune with JT, QJ, Q10, or Q9. BB probably has AA, KK, QQ, or AQ. Given the risk of 2 reraises behind you, I would probably drop, but I think you might be ahead or have outs. Contrary to Lars, I don't think this is an easy overpair fold. An easy overpair fold is when you have black aces, the flop is three hearts, and there is a bet and raise in front of you.
I meant to say raise before the flop and call 2 bets on the flop with JT. Also, I guess 88 is a possible hand. Again, I'd probably drop, but I think it is close.
YB-You're getting less than 6 to 1 to snag a king (and it looks like you'll need one). Trust your read and save yourself $60 (at least). Unlike Caddy's post below, this is what I consider real heat. Dump it right here. If you call here, calling the river will be mandatory. That said, they probably chopped the pot with AQ. =)
Haven't read the other posts yet but I think you have to make the toss here. This is a very tough fold but I don't think you can call two bets on the turn with KK. Obviously the raiser knows you and the BB have big hands from the way the hand has gone so far. Therefore, I doubt he would raise without a very good hand. I can't see him raising with AQ for instance. I would put him on QQ or maybe 88. Also the way the BB has played he may have AA. So, even though it is tough to toss this one I think it is the right play.
I would fold. If your opponents are reasonable, then they probably have AA, KK, AQ, KQ or QQ. Only one of the two needs to have AA, or QQ to make it right for you to fold. Even though the pot is big, it will cost you at least 3 big bets to get to a showdown.
Steve
You have defined your hand very strongly yet not one but now two players say it's no good. It's a clear fold. If you folded a winner, don't worry about it. You'll have their chips in no time.
did the 9 make for a possible flush draw? I agree that probably the best play is to fold but this would depend greatly on the other players' profile.
The thing that would really bother me if I folded in your position is that if I was UTG and I had A-Qs, I would raise on the turn if there was a redraw to the flush.
15/30 game. Pretty good game with 2-3 fish and the rest decent players. This hand came up late.
I'm on the button and have KK. UTG (a good player) limps, next (a by-the-book player) raises, I 3 bet. UTG calls and BTB makes it 4 bets. We both call. BTB is a decent player but errs on the side of caution. My standard 3 betting hands are JJ-AA and AKs (against a decent player) and both players are aware of this. I decided to just call and see the flop.
Flop 8-Q-Qr Pot $200.
UTG bets out and BTB raises without a delay. I fold. Comments?
I'm not quite so sure you're beat here. I would 3 bet or fold, depending on how well I knew my opponents. The only real hands that can beat you are AA, AQs and KQs. Is UTG capable of limping with any of these hands? Probably AA for sure. Is BTB capable of 4 betting with any of these hands? most likely only AA. Which means you probably mad e the right decision by folding after he 2 bet the flop. What were the results?
I like your fold based on your assessment of the players. The BTB will have AA or KK for his four betting preflop. Given that you have KK, he is a 6:1 favorite to have AA. The UTG leading into all of this probably has a queen. You are playing with two outs at best and could be playing with no outs if the BTB has the other two kings. Furthermore, it could get raised again.
When UTG bets outinto all that action, and BTB still raises, it's hard to imagine that neither of them can beat your hand. I think the fold is correct.
By the way, better to delay some before folding. Pretend to be thinking even when you've come to a quick decision so that when you really need to be thinking it isn't distinguishable.
What hand could UTG have here to bet into us? He knows that at least one of us is likely to have an over pair. Talking to him afterward he had hoped that I held AQs and he could trap the BTB player for 3 bets. He knew that if I held AK I would not call a bet on the flop anyways (never mind 2).
The turn blanked and both checked. The river blanked and UTG bet his 88 and BTB called with AA. I like the way BTB played his aces as there were very few cards that could hurt him if he was ahead but I think UTG should have bet the turn rather than go for a check raise. BTB likely would muck to a raise on the turn.
20-40 Planet Poker game.
I have Qc6d in the sb. Everyone folds. I call. Big blind checks.
The big blind is a Vancouver-based player who has been playing the Plnaet 20-40 game for a couple of weeks. He knows my true identity and as such is quite familiar with my play. I don't know his identity. The bastard wont tell me:-). But based on his play at Planet, there is no doubt that he is a thinker and plays a winning brand of poker.
Flop: Q87 (suits are unimportant in this hand)
I checkcall.
Turn: 9
I bet and call his raise
River: 10
I bet. I'll let you know the subsequent action, results and general comments at the table later on but first, your comments on my play please...
I probably would have surrendered before the flop considering the bb is a decent player.
I like your play on the flop and the turn.
I would not have bet on the river. bb is as likely to have a real hand (like two pair or Q with a better kicker) on the turn as he is to semi-bluff raise. In the instance where he had the best hand and you sucked out on him, he may try and bluff bet the river so you win a bet anyways. Also if you check some of your made hands on the river, you may induce your mysterious friend and others to check behind you, thus sparing you some difficult decisions on later hands.
in the case where bb made a semi-bluff raise on the turn, well, you are toast and will surely get raised.
Against most players you should raise if you check. He may very well be betting an ace or king that he will fold immediately if you raise and be done with if he doesn't hit. Why give him a free card?
Boris:
You might have overlooked the fact that our fearless player, skp that is, made a tail-end straight on the river. What can hurt him is any J. Betting the river goes on an assumption that the BB does not have a J.
didn't overlook the straight.
if you were the big blind would you call a bet on the river without a Jack? If so, what is your minimum hand required to call the bet? the problem I see with betting the river here is that you will not get called very often when you have the best hand and you will almost always get raised when you have the worst hand.
Boris,
The point well taken!
Thanks!
Ivan
how about the nuts,J-10.
n/t
I like your play on the flop, turn and river. However, I would have folded before the flop. You have a pretty weak hand and are probably wasting $10. If your straight was good you got fairly lucky... but nothing wrong with the occasional suckout.
Now this being said occasionally (very occasionally) I will raise in your situation rather than fold. Especially if the BB is a good player that will presumably be able to fold a poor hand. If the BB is a guy that will protect his blind regardless then don't bother trying the raise.
Pre-flop: I would fold. Why play garbage out of position?
Flop: I check-raise. If he has a single Ace or King, why let him see the next card?
Turn: Given the way you played the flop, I like your betting out on the turn. I would also then have called the raise.
River: With the 7-8-9-T on the board, I would have checked and called. Given that he didn't raise pre-flop, I think it's more likely that he has a hand that includes a jack than a big calling hand like A-Q, or K-K or something like that. Once you check he may bet a hand like two pair that he might fold when you bet out.
I virtually never open-limp in the sb because I hate giving a free flop to a random hand when I have a little anything, and also because it looks like a slowplay, which makes it hard to read your opponent.
On the flop, I think your goal should be to make 6-7 bets, which you did, with taking the pot now a close second. My preference would be to bet the flop to increase my chance of taking it to 3 bets on the turn, figuring that he probably doesn't have a queen and can't put me on one, perhaps especially if I open-limp and then bet the flop.
You should have bet the flop. He is either betting middle pair or his inside straight draw. I doubt he has a piar of queens on the flop by his reraise on the turn. By the turn with that board you are either looking at two pair (7-8,8-9) or the nut straight. Any way you look at it you either win or lose the same amount of money just by playing the hand period. Cause if you bet the flop he would definitly call with bottom pair or inside straight draw just cause he thinks you are trying to steal. You then would continue to bet the turn,which you did,and he would raise. Now you drew to your low end of a straight and you bet,now by his raise on the turn i doubt the 10 does anything to his hand cause he either has two pair like i said,the J-10 nut straight or since preflop you diden't raise,he could have 10-6,the same hand your looking at. And if he is as good of a player as you say he is and raises you on the river you know your looking at the nuts,if he just calls you know the worst taht can happen is your getting half your money back.
Preflop, I think you should have folded, but it's close. Against a weak player your call is correct. I also think his failure to raise you suggests a really weak hand -- he should raise you about 60% of the time in that situation.
Given that, on the flop, it is extremely likely you have the best hand. You should plan to checkraise either the flop or the turn.
Having check-called the flop, I think you should have checkraised the turn. Your bet-and-call play is not strong enough. This is largely based on my belief that he should have raised you preflop with any hand that would now make two pair as well as with JT, and also raised some of the time with T6 and 65. Having bet and been raised, I think it's close between calling the raise and three-betting.
On the end, I agree with your bet.
William
im on the button with AQo 3 limpers i raise all 3 call flop comes A9Q 2 clubs. check to me i bet 2 callers, we lose one. the turn come a Kd check, bet, i raise just to see where everybodys at i know theres a strait possibillity out there so if someone has the strait i thought they would pop it back,we lose one other just called. the river was a jack check to me i bet he just calls he turns over his T9 for the gut shot strait. i guess my question would be is there any other way to play this or do i just mark that one down as a bad beat
ps. neither one of his cards were clubs.
Your turn raise was not to "see where everybody was at" but rather it is a raise because you think you have the best hand. No one has AK, AA, KK, or QQ because there was no raise preflop other than by you. The only hand you have to worry about is specifically Jack-Ten. It is just as likely that the guy is betting a worse two pair than you or a pair and a flush draw. Your turn raise was correct because you probably have the best hand.
Despite the scary board of A-K-Q-J-9, it is tough not to bet the river when your lone opponent checks to you. I would not put him on a straight but rather a lower two pair which he will make a crying call with and your two pair rates to be best.
I think you played fine.
Definitly a bad beat by a bad player.
When you "raise just to see where everybodys at," what are you going to do with this information that makes it worth the bet or two that you are putting in? If you are reraised, I think that you will call the reraise then fold the river if you don't improve. If you just call turn and river you put in the same number of bets but your opponent must also show his hand. I assume your raise also pushed out the other player in the hand, which was probably a good thing, but I don't think you can make this raise unless you feel that you have the best hand. Luckily there was a good enough chance that you had the best hand that the raise was reasonable. Regards, Ben
A loose/aggressive/tricky player open raises in mid-late position, I am next and reraise with 8s 8c. Everyone else folds. There are 2 players and 7.5 small bets in the pot.
The flop comes 9s 2h 2d
He checks, I bet, he calls. There are now 4.75 big bets in the pot.
The turn is the 7h
He checks, I bet, he raises. Based on experience with this player, I got the feeling that he was making a move. I call. There are now 8.75 big bets in the pot.
The river is the Jd
He bets, I call. He shows the 8h 8d, so we split the pot. He said that he thought he had the best hand when he check-raised the turn, which leads to the conclusion that he put me on two overcards that missed the raggedy board. If that is the case, how can he bet the river after I call the check-raise on the turn?
Flow?
I guess "flow" would tell you to bet the river after check-raising the turn. The question is, does that make it right just because it flows?
What do you want him to do. Maybe he had you pegged from go. He obviously put you on two over cards when you bet the flop. When he check-raised you on the turn he almost knew in his mind you had two over cards,figuring no one would hold on to that hand unless they had an overpair or two very high over cards(AK). And if you did have an over pair you would reraise him either then or the river. So He knows that when the Jack falls it coulden't help you cause you don;t have pot odds to draw to an inside straight,you woulden't call with a hand like J-10,or J-Q(fearing either being out kicked or just beat by AA KK or a set of either one). So the only other hand he could put you on would be AK figuring not many people would call the river with that and not many people would call with pocket 8's. And that is why he continued to bet the hand,not knowing you would play your hand so weakly.
When he bets the river, what hand does he expect me to call with that he can beat? AK or AQ? I just don't see how he expects to get a worse hand to call or a better hand to fold to a bet on the river. So why bet? If he puts me on two overcards, why not check and hope that I bluff at it? If not two overs, then what did I reraise with before the flop? If I have tens or better I am going to call. If I have pocket nines or sevens I have a full and I am going to raise. At what point did I play the hand weakly? By not re-raising the turn?
Couldn't lay down an underpair huh?
my thoughts exactly.
Do you want me to fold an underpair on the river?
I think you should say to yourself you played the hand weak and got lucky to see that the other player had the same hand you had and leave it at that.
I played the hand weak and got lucky to see that I had the same hand that you had Russ.
I have two red nines and the button. Six handed by the time it gets to me and I call. The small blind calls, the big blind raises, everyone calls and we take the flop seven handed. Please let me point out that the table has been loose/passive up to this point, with the big blind playing extremely tight and only raising with premium hands. The flop comes 9c/5h/5s. Both blinds check, under the gun bets ("UTG"), I raise, we go into the turn still seven handed. The turn is the Ad. Both blinds check, the UTG bets into me, two players fold, I raise again, the small blind calls, the big blind check-reraises, we go into the river five handed. The river card is the As. The small blind checked, the big blind bet, UTG calls, player in between calls, I fold and the small blind calls. I knew the small blind would call due to a obvious tell. What did the four players have? Especially the big blind? Results later.
who cares. you knew to fold and thats that.
I care! I need to work on my hand reading skills.
The big blind had A5s? That means he raised for value before the flop and slowplayed the flop. Maybe he had AKs or AQs?
However that leads to an interesting question- there are four players in the hand, obviously BB has an Ace and if the case Ace was live there would be a raise on the river. So the only other cards which make a hand are the case 9 and the 2 remaining 5's. Three cards to stay for and four players in???
UTG HAD POCKET 5, BB HAD AK
Big blind had pocket queens, UTG had pocket kings, player in between had 5/7s, small blind had pocket tens. I made the right decision by folding. Fives full of aces won the pot. I just felt the hand was bizarre by the way it unfolded.
forgive me but you had 9s full of aces and would have won - or have i missed something?
Yes, he would have won if he had called.
But that doen't mean his fold wasn't correct.
You should fold?!?!? What?!?! Look, you are probably beaten down horribly by an A-5 here, but you never know. The pot is HUGE by my mental math (7BB's before flop + 7BB on flop + 15BB on the turn + 4BB on the river, with the "obvious call" from SB coming). If somebody doesn't have an A, you win! The only hands with aces that belong in this pot are AA, 55 and A-5s! AA is unlikely to be here with no pre-flop raise, and 55 had you beaten on the flop anyway. This is an obvious call, even if you "know" that you are beaten! There's 33BB in this pot! Do you know what a 3% shot feels like? Neither do I - so you need to call regardless of the river.
I'm going to embarass myself. Maybe I or someone else can learn something new from my terrible play. I locked on a read and wasn't flexible enough to change my thinking in the end.
I posted $20 in the cutoff as a new player to a game where I did not know one player from Adam. From the few hands I saw, the game seemed to be playing tough. There was 1 early limper and another player (AP) raised. I called with KJo, everyone else folded and the limper called. 3-way.
The flop came Qd,Td,6s. Limper checked, AP bet, I called, limper called.
The turn was the Ac. Limper checked, AP bet, I raised, limper called two cold without any hesitation, AP called.
The river was the Jd and the limper immediately bet, AP folded. In my quick thinking wisdom, I reasoned the jack could only have made a gutshot. What other hand containing a king could he have had that warranted calling $80 cold on the turn without any hesitation? I also thought I was not getting the 12 to 1 odds as it appeared. If he would bet a str8 or a flush, he would have to have the str8 at least 1 time in 6 to make calling profitable, since there was a good chance I could split the pot. Since I knew nothing about this player, I decided there was too great a chance he had diamonds and the call was not profitable. I folded.
A player sitting next to him asked his hand and he said, "I made a straight". Now I don't believe everything I hear, but after watching his play over the next few hands it was apparant that this was certainly possible. What I neglected to take into consideration was the fact that he would KNOW I didn't have diamonds and therefore, be inclined to bet a str8 into a flush board. He also may have had KJ or J9. Anyway, was this fold as bad as I think it was? Was there anything else I should have considered? Thanks.
Kevin
I suppose he had KQ,KT or T9, all offsuit, right? How good/bad was his call on the turn with these hands? Obviously, since his opponent was bad enough to fold KJ, his call was GOOD! But what if this wasn't the case? Thanks.
Kevin
With any of the above hands his turn call was very bad. With any of these hands he knows he's behind (or at least he should know) and his only out is a J. It's also possible he had KJ. I think there is also a good possibility that his comment was B.S. and he did have the flush. This is the only hand that really makes sense.
That being said I think you have to call the river. By my quick calculation there is $440 in the pot so you are getting 11 to 1. You may be beat but as I've learned from this forum the river is not a time to make good lay downs.
KEV,
CALLING TWO BETS COLD MAKES YOU THINK FLUSH. ACTION BY A NEW PLAYER MAKES A FLUSH A STRONG POSSIBILITY, HOWEVER BECAUSE HE IS A NEW PLAYER A PAY OFF FOR INFORMATION AS WELL AS A POSSIBLE SPLIT MIGHT BE APPROPRIATE. NOT TO MENTION THE ODDS.
MY WORTHLESS OPINION
ADAM
"By my quick calculation there is $440 in the pot so you are getting 11 to 1. You may be beat but as I've learned from this forum the river is not a time to make good lay downs."
You are right about the laydowns on the river. But I didn't think it was realistic to assume I was getting 11 to 1 on the call. Unless he was bluffing (or foolish enough to bet two pair), the best I could hope for was a chop. I just didn't see any reasonable hand he could be bluffing with. Even if he WAS bluffing he'd have to do this 1 time in 6, not 11 for a call to be profitable. But I'm not sure this is the correct way to look at this either. Thanks for your input.
Kevin
the possibility of the limper having not only the flush, but the NUT flush ?
He could have even had a Royal; if the game was playing tough as you described, limping with Ad,Kd pre-flop from an early position could hardly be considered bad poker. (The one problem with putting him on this exact hand is that if he did have it he played it miserably on every round with the exception of the river.)
There is a part of me that would like to disect this hand thoroughly - the problem being that I know almost nothing about the players involved.
So then, in a nutshell, I cannot imagine that you laid down a hand that was going to haul this pot. He could have even had your garden variety AK; your raise on the turn does not scream out STRAIGHT, if he did hold AK he would probably call "two cold without hesitation" as there are many hands you could have that warrant his cold call - AQ, AT, QT being the most likely.
Of course if this were true you did throw away half of this pot, but half would have been $285 - 40 of which would have been your fee for paying off.
A. He also had the straight and you cost yourself $245 by not paying him off.
B. He had a flush and you saved $40 by not paying him off.
C. You had him beat and lost out on $490 by tossing your hand in the muck.
Assign each of these possibilities a % and see what result you come up with.
MY guess is that you saved $40. It is rare to find a player who is capable of firing a bluff at someone who just raised the turn. He knows that you have a hand; he therefore also knows that it is unlikely you will muck for one more bet on the river - even with a board as scary as this one.
Final (and I believe important) point... how does he "know" you don't have a flush ? If you had limped in with AX of diamonds, might not a raise on the turn (even though it's unlikely you hold the best hand at that point) be a play you are capable of making ?
I am firmly of the opinion that you saved a bet; had you called you were extremely likely to get shown the nuts - perhaps I should say the best flush since there was a straight flush possibility out there - AK, K9, 98.
You did the right thing IMO; more importantly if you did lay down the winning hand you are beating yourself up too much for it. Even if someone posts something that causes me to change my mind, it was at worst a small mistake to fold. If this hand occurred 1,000 times you would be ahead very little by calling every time - if in fact it turns out that you would be ahead at all.
Hope that was of some help.
- J.D.
Thanks J.D. That did help. A friend came down pretty hard on me right after the hand. I agree with you that over 1000 trials it probably wouldn't amount to that big of a mistake. In fact, I thought it would add up to a slight loss, which is why I folded. You made some good point. Thanks again.
Kevin
I think you made a good fold, and I think he flopped a double gutter with 9-8.
It could very well be that he had 9-8 of diamonds (a flush)and smuggly told the truth about making a straight, since he made that too. With that monster draw, his quick-call on the turn makes sense, as does his comment.
Tommy
.
if he held 98, Kevin wins the entire pot unless it was - as you pointed out - the 98 of diamonds.
Any other 98 would have given [Kevin's] opponent a Queen-high straight - a hand that would not have beaten Kevin's broadway.
I do think that 9d,8d is a very likely hand for his opponent to have held (shame on me for overlooking that one), but saying he made a good laydown if his opponent had ANY 98 (I may be overly sleep deprived) seems as though it must have been a typo on your part.
Can you please clear this up, I am beginning to feel a little dizzy.
P.S. I do agree with you - as I mentioned in my above post - that this was a hand that wound up where it probably belonged... in the muck, but not because his opponent might have had a LOWER straight.
I mention this only because I cannot recall an instance where you posted without first giving the subject a good deal of thought.
Also, would the opponent bet the bottom end of a straight when any King beats him ?
- PLEASE be assured I am not trying to show you up; if we were barred from this forum for the occasional blunder I would be long gone (LOL).
Your friend (and unexpected critic) -
- J D
You're right, I DID miss something.
Before your latest post I did not realize that the final board was four to a straight with any king making the nut straight.
If it had NOT been than way, then I think my previous posts holds up. When I said I thought he made a good laydown, I meant that if he folded the winning hand, it was still a good laydown because the chances were very slim that Kevin had a winner.
But now I take it all back! I just reread the hand. The limper only had to call one bet on the flop. With the flop of Q-10-x, he could have limped with KQ or K-10 and the hand makes sense. He picked up an open-ender on the turn and chunked in two bets cold. Lots of players do that.
The sucky thing is that on the river Larry is calling to win at most half the pot. It still smells like a flush to me, but I think the KQ and K-10 possibilies call for a call.
Tommy
This past week while playing 15-30 at Canterbury Park there was a situation that created some debate between a player and myself. The player is in the small blind ($10 blind) and when the action gets to him it is $60 to call...$50 for him....with five people already committed to the pot. If he calls he will make it six and there is a slim possibility that the big blind may also call. He has KQ diamonds...shows it to me and mucks. I said I would have called. What is the correct play?
666
Without any reasons why, this isnt very useful. KQ suited is a level 1 hand. There are a lot of callers so the straight and flush value is high. Please explain more. Still hoping to hear from Mason or Jim.
You are likely dominated (AK, AQ, AA, KK, QQ) by at least one player, so you're drawing on basically just straights and flushes. This is enough to call say one raise preflop but calling 4 bets cold, even from the SB, is not a good idea. Although you have the same immediate odds, the high price you are paying to see a flop destroys your implied odds. Look at the section in HPFAP on wild games.
In this situation, KQs is only better than 45s in that you are less likely to be overflushed.
Chris
Chris answered it for you. You are hoping that out of all those people not a single one of them has an AK AQ KQ AA KK QQ or some other Axof diamonds. All of these hands are very possible for more then one (if not all) of your opponents. Even if they all had hands like 88 99 1010 JJ KJ or QJ you would still need to hit your hand then have it hold up which is going to be tough since the pot is so damn huge now that you will at least be chased by a few of your opponents. While your KQs is usually a great starting hand there are times when it is simply in an unprofitable situation. In these situations you must fold all but your absolute premium hands, basically everything except AKs AA KK and maybe make a loose call w/ AQs QQ and JJ
IowaMatt;
KQ suited is level two - not one. (AKs is level one). Think of all the ways you could go to the river with this and find out you are a close second. Don't hold your breath for an answer from the authors. You've gotten very good answers already.
What is the correct play if all the raisers are maniac and able to cap it with 4d5d
nt
Even if they are all maniacs you would probably still want to fold. If they are doing this EVERY single hand you might have an argument for calling (realize that in this type of game you are going to play supertight as described in HEFAP21 maniac game section) but I still think this is a fold given the situation. Also realize that in a 15-30 game it is exceedingly rare for 5 maniacs to be all raising with total garbage.
WEll if you want to play it by the book,then folding is the "right" play. I see people asways asking mason or david for advice and all they do is quote from thier book like robots. You need a little gamble in you sometimes. It is a skill game but it dosen't mean you have to follow text book all the time. It is a intuition move for me. If you ever read Doyal Brunsons book, you will see what i mean. Oh one more thing,if you play like Goat or anyone else who flat out said just fold,don;t expect to win much money with your more observent players. You have to switch gears to keep those type of players from leaning on you too much and a little gamble can go a long way sometimes.
"Intitution move." Sounds like someone that needs an excuse to play more hands. Varying your play is one thing, gambling is another. It is an easy fold.
Your an easy read then. And if you want to dispute one of the greatest players of all time (Doyal Brunson),then i won;t stop you. But as far as i am concerned,you need to give a little action now and then to get some.
If you like to play so predictable,by all means keep it up. ha ha ha
Iowa Matt,
I would need more information to provide a useflul answer. For example, if the game was a moderate action game and for this hand tight players raised, reraised and capped the chances of being dominated are so great that the suitedness probably does not make up for this hands vulnerability to AK, AQ, AA, KK, and QQ. If it was a fairly loose game but your friend was playing at the upper end of his comfort zone it might also be a fold if the re-raisers and cappers are not maniacs. But if you are well bankrolled and the raisers have loose raising standards and play poorly post flop it should be played. But you must play very well post flop and be able to get away from marginal flops if you face a lot of pressure. If you flop a pair having a three flush will often be key.
Regards,
Rick.
.
Someone mentioned that this hand is not much better than the 4d5d. I would much rather have the 45s in this situation than KQs. It is almost a sure bet that there is a hand out that badly dominates you. You are likely to hit top pair and get outkicked. At least with 45s, you know all your cards are live, since you will certainly need two pair or better to win.
Why fight over your $10 when it seems like everyone else has a premium hand. KQs is great when you're the raiser. It sucks for calling a raise, unless the raiser is loose, in which case, re-raise.
In the words of George Carlin, "C'mon, taking a ******* risk!"
I have QT spades and I limp in early position. The next player raises and when it gets back to me there are six callers and throw in my other 20. Seven see the flop.
The flop is 7 9 J two spades. I check. The raiser bets out and is called by everyone. I raise. Everyone calls. My thinking here was that I like my draw and I wanted to trap as much money in as possible if I hit my draw.
The turn is the Ace of diamonds. I now have 15 outs. I bet and am raised by one of the preflop limpers. All fold back to me and I reraise all in. (I had not rebought because I was waiting for the button to go by)
The river is 2 spades and I take down the pot. The raiser on the turn shows 99. He flopped a set. I am interested in hearing what all think about my play and the play of the player with 99.
The guy who flopped a set should have played it faster, given the texture of the board.
I'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish by fly betting the turn, unless you just wanted to get all in right there.
I was betting the turn to get as much in the pot as possible. I have also seen times in that game where a check raise on the flop and bet on the turn has won the pot. It did eleminate all but one player.
I can't recall seeing a hand where I would have played it differently on every street, 100% of the time. lol
Preflop: fold Flop: check and call Turn: check and call River: Bet (I'd have some ammo)
For the life of me, I can't understand the reasoning behind betting out with a huge draw into a seven-handed field. To me these are among the easiest hands to play. Oddly, even though the money is big and I really like my hand, these situations are the most boring because there's no decision making in "hands that play themselves."
Tommy
15 outs might justify the aggressiveness of the play on the turn. However, you were nowhere near 15 outs, or should have thought not. Two of your spades were board pair spades which, with all that action, could not be considered outs. And with 7 players seeing the flop, at least 1 player was holding a K. You might even have had reservations about the spades as outs with Q high.
How does a King change my hand. If I king hits I make my straight. I was only counting straight and flush outs and since there had not been any raising on the flop I didnt put anyone on a set. There was a raise from a player on the turn...but by then I was already committed to the hand. The raise on the turn alerted me to the possiblity that there was a set out there...though it didnt guarentee it.
I think the biggest reason for differences in how the play of the hand should have gone is because of the difference in the type of game. I have played in Vegas for example where most games are very tight and players seem to be very conservative in their games. This game was not and never is like that. It is a very wild game with lots of callers and lots of raising. Draws like this often play better than top pair top kicker in this game. I would be interested in hearing your comments on this aspect of things.
Tommy
I am curious...do you get paid off on your draws? If I played against you consistently and you played as you described, I would never pay off that bet made on the river that comes from no where.
I do agree with part of your analysis. Folding preflop MAY have been the correct play. I did not make this play because the game has a high number of callers on a consistent basis....though often for a raise.
Playing the hand as you describe would result in a far smaller pot that was actually won. Of course you may say that I just got lucky. That may be true but when I check raise on the flop I am getting seven callers on a 12 outer. When I have those odds I want to put as much money in the pot as possible. At this point in betting I have no reason to believe there is a set anywhere so pairing the board with a spade does not seem like a problem given the play of the hand.
My only regret to the play of the hand was that I didnt have more chips in front of me to play that hand. I guess we all play differently. I do appreciate your thoughts.
Good thread. I've been wondering about this very thing.
Let's say seven players see the flop and we flop a 15-outter. Our flush draw is the third-nut draw, and our straight draw is a nut draw, but with no aces or kings in our made straight.
A look at both extremes:
Let's say we know for sure that if we hit we will win the pot, meaning if we hit the turn, no one ever sucks out on us on the river, and if we hit the flush, no one has a higher flush. Further, no matter how many bets or raises we put in, all seven players will call the flop and turn and pay off on the river if we hit.
In that scenario I think we'd all agree that putting in every possible chip is right.
The other extreme is that when we bet the flop or check-raise the flop, the guy behind us raises (or reraises) and drives out every player. Or worse yet, it comes down to three players immediately, one with the same straight draw that we have, and another with a higher flush draw.
Somewhere in between these extremes is what really happens. Sometimes we reduce drawing odds more that we'd hoped by being spunky, sometimes we get full value. Sometimes our draw is live, and sometimes it ain't.
When we hit our flush and lose to a higher flush, it's a bitter pill to swallow, no doubt. But think of how many times we DON'T hit our flushes when we were drawing dead! We don't know when that happens. In all of those undisclosed potential disasters, if we knew we only had a six-out straight draw, we'd surely just check and call, right?
And what about when we hit on the turn? If we hit the straight, it's not an ace-high straight, which means many cards give someone a tie or a higher straight. If we hit the flush, any bare ace or king of the suit now has a redraw to beat us. And of a course a pair on the river either beats us or hurts our pay-off potential, especially from UTG. Heck, we could even get bluffed off the best hand, intentionally or inadvertantly.
The way I see it, driving players out costs money. Betting out on the turn just BEGS someone to our near left to raise because the pot is so big and worth jockeying for.
Compounding everything is the woeful position. Dozens of scenarios are easily devised that show how UTG draws lose more and win less than the same draw in back.
When all factors are weighed, I think it's a rare situation where jamming a draw from UTG on the flop is a long-range money maker. Same goes for betting out on the turn, but FAR more so.
Perhaps it was profitable in the hand you described, given the players and perceptions and all the other "it depends" variables. If it was, I don't think it was by much. Maybe this is one of those things that doesn't much matter what we do. If so, then your way DOES have a definite confuse-them value.
As to me getting paid off, I play a straight-forward game up front, and a who-the-heck-knows game from in back. So I get paid off plenty when I call along with a draw from up front and then bet when it hits. I think they think I'm up to something. (Off topic, I think they call sometimes because they know I won't give a courtesy show with a big hand.)
Tommy
Matt-
You make a good point regarding the value raise for your draw on the flop. I'm not sure I would have made it, for reasons Tommy already explained, but you certainly can make a strong case for raising with this kind of draw.
That said, I think the folly in fly betting the turn stems from the fact that the board was so co-ordinated. You made the point that often in this game a turn bet here can drag it. And I don't doubt that for a minute. However, I bet you that most of the time when a turn bet takes it down you'll have 8s7s and the flop will come 3s 4s 6h, with, say, another three dropping on the turn. When the board is co-ordinated with middle cards it becomes that much harder to muscle your way through the hand.
Hence, I would have checked the turn.
Tommy
I disagree with your analysis on the first two parts of the hand. If the game is sufficiently loose I wouldn't throw away QTs "100% of the time". I don't want to call a lot of preflop raises with it but if there are 5-6 players seeing every flop for a bet it's not that bad.
On the flop, I think Matt made a play with merits. Once everyone is in for a bet a small bet, why not raise with a super draw with two cards to come? He is sure to have an overlay with this draw. The only issue is whether or not the raiser will 3 bet and make the other callers drop out for two more bets. Since he didn't, it is hard to argue that this was a bad play.
On the turn, I think both betting out and checking have merits, but checking is the better play. When you are short and have nut or near nut-draws, you want to get your money in against as many players as possible. To this end, checking would be a better play. That Ad is likely to have hit someone (like the preflop raiser)who is going to raise your bet.
Betting out is most likely the best play on the river, if of course you have the chips in front of you to do so.
As to limping with Q-10 from an early seat, I wasn't exaggerating. That is a play I never make. I'm not saying this is "right." I just know that my desire to be last to act is so strong that I'd rather three-bet with Q-10 from the cutoff than limp with it up front.
Ironically, the same thing that makes limping attractive (multiple, passive players) is the same thing that turns me away from it. To win the pot from up front in those games you've got to make the best hand. UTG, I'd rather save those four chips for when I've got hands that are easier to play and easier to make a winner with, like a pocket pair or two high cards.
Tommy
I just got involved in a thread on the internet forum over this exact situation. Raising and jamming the pot from early position on the flop with a big draw against multiple opponents.
I've decided that the proponents of this play are correct. But, I agree with Tommy that QTs should be folded in early position roughly 100% of the time.
But if by some chance you DO find yourself in early position with an open ended straight and a flush draw with QTs, by all means raise the roof on the flop. Check and call on the turn, tho. So I agree with Tommy about how to play every street except the flop. I've been assimilated by the ram-n-jam on the flop school of thinking.
However, I would MUCH MUCH rather have position with this hand.
natedogg
Since you are 53% to make a straight or a flush, assuming both are good (bold but not ridiculous), you make money heads up. Playing it like Tommy Angelo suggests is poor.
I think the flop check raise is ok if you are fairly sure the bettor won't repop and/or that the game is so loose you won't lose a lot of players if he does reraise. You want volume. You were lucky -- he should have reraised you.
I would check-call the turn. You are not going to win by betting and you are still a fairly major dog. What you want is for everyone to call a single bet, and someone will almost certainly bet with that board.
The preflop raiser could not reraise me. He didnt have a hand that could do that. I think many may be confused. The person who raised on the turn was not the preflop raiser. He had called the preflop raise with 99 and hit a set. Had he (or even the preflop raiser) reraised me on the flop all would have called the additional raise. These players do not lay down hands once they have put money into the pot that round of betting. At most in this game I see 1 in 25 lay down a hand once they have put money into that round of betting.
As for the preflop raiser, I was never worried he would reraise because JJ was the only hand he could have that could reraise with the board showing 7 9 J including the J of spades. I had no worry that he would reraise with this many people in the pot even with AA. JJ was the only reraise hand he could have.
Had I been reraised on the flop I would not have bet out on the turn not wanting to get reraised for sure. Without the reraise on the flop I was convinced that all of my outs were clean. As it turns out some werent because there was a set of nines out there.
fair enough. you sure this wasn't a 3-6 hand at Paradise?
I think your checkraise on the flop is good if you think the preflop raiser won't reraise, or if the game is so loose that if he does reraise it won't get rid of that much of the field. You are a favorite against top pair, even against a set you aren't it that bad shape. So I aggree that you want to get alot of money in the pot.
I can't believe some say to check and call on the flop, aren't you making mmoney if you can get 4 or more to pay!? Aren't you winning in the nbd of 40% of every bet that goes into the pot?
Can you just clarify one thing, Iowa Matt. You mention in your first post that after the turn card diamond 'I know have 15 outs', and in another one that you had 12 outs on the flop.
With QsTs on a 7-9-J, two spade board I can't see why an ace of diamond improve you number of outs. And as we all know, any lack of own improvement is actually usually a set-back. AJ, a likely hand, decreases your outs, while the chance of a river card Q now giving you the pot have decreased to zero.
lars
I never thought a Q was a winner at all. The flop is 7 9 J two spades and I have QT of spades. On the flop I have the nine other spades that make me a winner (at least I think it does) plus the three other 8s that give me the nut straight.
The ace of dimonds now adds a King to my winning hands with the board showing 7 9 J A. I have already counted the K of spades in with my outs prior to the turn so the Ace adds three outs.
Let me make clear...I NEVER thought QQ with T kicker was any good. I am playing solely for the flush or the straight.
As far as AJ being a hand out there, I was not concerned. The hands that I make a good against AJ because the J of spades is already out on the board which greatly lessens the likelihood that I am facing a higher flush should the spade come...as it did.
Actually, looking at this again, you are correct. I had 15 outs all along. Guess that just makes me feel like my check raise on the flop and bet out on the turn were even more correct.
Hope this helps.
The flop was 79J. You had QT, so any king gives you the nuts as well. The turn didn't change anything.
palpatine
I wouldn't call with this hand pre-flop.
On the flop I think your check raise is great. These are the opportunities you have to look for. The threat is that the bettor will re-pop it or it will start a raising frenzy.
I don't understand your bet on the turn. Just because you showed strenghth on the flop doesn't mean you have to bet the turn. Then you re-raise a player who raises you. That makes no sense. Why not wait and see if you actually make your hand and save the $20 for cab money if you miss.
The player who flopped a set played it way too slow. You gave him a golden oportunity to either trap several players in or thin the field on the flop and he didn't take advantage. A set on a flop like this needs to be played as fast as possible.
I'm making this post before looking at the other responses. We'll see how I do.
Pre-deal: I would have bought more chips regardless of my position relative to the button.
I think you played the flop perfectly. You are drawing to the third best flush, which makes me a little bit nervous, but given all the action it is a good value bet.
I would not bet the turn here. With all of these players someone probably has an Ace. At this point the pot is so big, and there are so many players that you should know that you will need to show down the best hand to win. So there is no reason to bet with less than the best hand. Even though you went all-in, you did not get any value out of it. If you had checked-called the turn, then you would have saved yourself $15 if you did not make your hand, and you still would have been called down on the river if you did hit your hand.
Steve
First off, I don't like your limping in with Qs10s early position. If it's a loose passive 20-40 game, I suppose it's alright. But if it's like most 20-40 games I play in the casinos, Q-10 suited is an awful hand to have in early position facing a raise down the table.
However, you got enough callers to call another $20 so you are obviously hoping to flop a straight or flush draw.
On the flop, I really like your checkraise. You have one of the best draws and you are getting max value for it. However, the guy that flopped the set played it horrible. He should have pumped it up bigtime on the flop. If it was capped on the flop, I would be careful on the turn. Should it pair up the turn, I would fold and quit the draw. You no longer have clean outs and could very well be drawing dead given the great action on the flop.
On the turn your bet is about as useful as trying take graffiti off a wall with water and a brush. First off all, it is an overcard. Secondly, it's an Ace. You seriously do not expect any of the other six players to have missed an Ace, do you? I would check and call hoping that more people will call to give me better odds for the straight and flush draw. Your re-raise all-in makes even less sense. You are giving money away before you have anything.
You got lucky on the river, but you played it bad throughout.
Hope to you soon in my cardroom.
The Fish
without an opinion...
In a game such as the one you described, limping with QTs is totally acceptable IMO. Yes I would rather have position, and no I don't want to have to call a raise (or raises) with this hand, but if 5 or more players are routinely seeing the flop I will take both risks.
On the surface betting out on the flop seems to be a very questionable move; I would not have done it - if I am ever in this exact situation I will never do it. One reason not to bet out is that it looks as though you may have flopped a very big hand - perhaps even the nuts - which will serve to scare alot of your opponents. Since you never had a realistic chance of scaring ALL of them out, the last thing you want to do is even remind them that you are still in the hand.
Check and call would seem to be the only way to play the flop, again IMO.
Putting any more than the absolute minimum into the pot on the turn - ESPECIALLY if you are short stacked - is simply bad poker. You may have as few as three or four outs (since it would figure that a King or two are not available to you - at least one should be in someone's hand - and you SHOULD have been up against at least one other [though not necessarily higher] flush draw.) You are going to get action if you hit; wouldn't it be better to wait and see if you do before committing any more chips to this pot ? Did you REALLY think that aggression on the turn gave you even a 1% chance of either winning the pot right there OR gave you more equity in the pot ? If I were your defense attorney I might argue that it is REMOTELY possible that another QT might have thrown their hand away, but attorneys get paid to lie. I don't.
The only compliment I am able to muster is "nice hand".
No intent to be unkind here - I am just calling it the way I see it.
To be fair, playing this hand the way you did probably created an image that you could later use if you did happen to later flop a big hand from early position, but in a true attempt to be fair I don't think that this thought was on your mind. Certainly it was not among your higher priorities.
In closing, I don't think any of these plays were atrocious; I just don't agree with them, and I doubt I will be changing my mind any time soon.
That said, congratulations on a "nice haul"; it is perfectly permissable to ocasionally "play bad and run good", but it is usually weak players who pull off this trick.
And a weak player you are not.
- Best wishes,
- J D
It is interesting that you talk about table image. First of all, I will always play a big draw that fast. It makes me money on other hands. I play with these same guys every week. Second, I didnt bet out on the flop, I check raised on the flop to trap as much money in the pot as possible.
On the turn you may be right that I should not have reraised...I figured I am going all in anyway lets get as much in there as possible. I really wasnt short stacked overall because I would have rebought without any problem.
Finally, later that night I flopped a set of aces on the button. It was checked to me and I bet and got called in 4 places. The turn was the other ace...giving me 4 aces. Checked to me and I bet. I got called in two places. The river was a blank to me but made a straight for another player. Checked to me and I bet. I got called by him and took down a large pot.
I play in the game fairly regularly. I post wins 80 percent of the time. I always play very aggressively. it is a very wild game.
Might as well reply, since everybody else has. I don't like your pre-flop play too much because you had no chips. You can often find yourself going into "tournament mode" while low on chips and you can bleed off quite a few BB's doing this on a consistent basis by playing poor hands. With that said, coming in pre-flop w/ Q-Ts against a bunch of weakies is probably not that bad. This statement seems very well justified, according to this post and the others that I've read about this 20-40 game. With many passive, multiway flops, you need drawing hands and Q-Ts isn't so bad. In fact, it may be a slightly +EV play, but I'm not sure, especially if your image can be improved. Either way, it adds to fluctuations, and may not be worth the additional aggravation/swings, IMO. However, if you have this hand and play it, you NEED to get paid off accordingly if you hit it! That's why you need chips! That's the biggest problem. As for the hand itself, I think that it plays pretty easily once you've committed yourself preflop: 1. On the flop - check raise is good - you want a lot of players and a ton of cash in that pot. The worst case scenario is that you check-raise then get 3-bet by the guy next to act - this could cause a bunch of people to fold. However, even heads up your hand is a big one, so it's not bad. You can't really put him on a set. Even so, with all of the dead money in the pot, you shouldn't even care if he has a set! Besides, what sometimes happens in the moron-filled games like this one is that your check-raise causes a 5,6 or 7-way cap to come about; this is money in the bank! 15 outs twice is a MONSTER hand - play it as such. Posters who disagree with this strategy are just plain wrong! 2. Turn - your hand ain't as good now, because your chances of making the hand are diminished, so I'd check again. Somebody's gonna bet, and you can check-raise it again if you have enough callers on the bet-out (15 outs with 46 to come puts this # at about 5 due to the possible immediate reraise factor, which will liekly reduce it to a heads-up battle). If people start folding to the original bet out by the raiser, then check and call the turn. 3. River - you need chips here to get paid off! Bet out and collect some cash! A rational opponent will surely call you down here.
-Expert players must be fooled more often then poor ones. You must avoid playing similar hands the same way all the time. Sklansky/Malmuth 21st Century Edition Hold'em Poker
-Poker is a simple game of cost, chance, payback. Sgt. Rock.
-Patience pays its dividends during the periods when you're losing and cannot pick up a playable hand. You have to keep throwing them away until you get one you like. Super/System
Let's see if I understand the state of personal responsibility in the America of the 2000s:
- If a woman burns her thighs on the hot coffee she was holding in her lap while driving, she blames the restaurant.
- If your teenage son kills himself, you blame the rock 'n' roll musician he liked.
- If you smoke three packs a day for 40 years and die of lung cancer, your family blames the tobacco company.
- If your daughter gets pregnant by the football captain, you blame the school for poor sex education.
- If your neighbor crashes into a tree while driving home drunk, you blame the bartender.
- If your cousin gets Aids because the needle he used to shoot heroin was dirty, you blame the government for not providing clean ones.
- If your grandchildren are brats without manners, you blame television.
- If your friend is shot by a deranged madman, you blame the gun manufacturer. Any comment would be superfluous. Bangkok Post
Overheard at the table this week.
I play the black pair of 7s more powerfully then the red 7's. Sheesh
I throw away Aces I always lose with them. Broke Hosh up had him crying not only because she was serious but had him down 2000. She said it was not part of her sign. Ochewawa. Hosh has never been to successful against those astrological types.
Movie madness hit Vegas this week. All around the city shooting took place. The remake of Ocean's Eleven was the talk of the town. Julia Roberts, Matt Damon, George Clunie and Scott Caan were the stars on the movie set. Noticing a young man wearing movie cowboy boots and a lot of makeup. Hosh asked how the movie was going. The young personable young man said fine. Later however, I see the young man on the rail watching my poker game. Waving me over he asks me about the blinds and how the game was played. Shortly thereafter after I explain Hold'em to him. A gentleman with a beard comes over says Scott we are ready for you. He follows the gentleman to the set. Later in the evening Scott comes into the poker room in his blue jeans and asks if he can sit behind me and watch me play. Only then does he formally introduce himself as Scott Caan. He even asks Hosh if he wants to be in the movie. I advise him poker is the only stage for me to which he laughs. This big star watching little Hosh play poker reminded me of this weeks tip.
When you play poker on a daily basis you must take notice of the highs and lows of the opponents starting requirements. In a full ring game you must note the opponents lowest playing card and lowest pairs. Heads up you must know the lowest raising high card. What does this mean. Lets say you see an opponent in a full ring game and he only calls with hands down to a base card of ten. The weakest hand he calls with is JT or any hand with that contains a T or above. Now lets say the flop comes 883. You now feel a lot more comfortable bluffing the opponent. Now lets take at the lowest raising pair. If an opponent only raises down to 88 for which I call an unbalanced strategy and the flop comes down 654 it is not likely his hand contains trips although he may reraise you a few times even though you have and over pair. You are not in danger. Also because his raising pair uses and unbalanced strategy. You can take advantage of the opponent because he has more non pairs then pairs. A flop like 752 now becomes a bluffing situation. He probably does not have a pair most of the time and his high cards did not hit.
Next lets look at heads up and the lowest raising high card. First of all what does the lowest raising high card mean. Lets say and opponent only raises with any A2 or above his lowest raising high card is and ace. Now lets take a look at opponent who now raises down to Q6. His lowest raising high card is a Q. These cards as I call them are key cards. For example against the second opponent any A K Q are key cards. When one of those cards are on board be less likely to check raise or bet with a small pair out of the blind. If a J or T high flop hits the board. Be more likely to bet or check raise a small pair. Key carding opponents heads up becomes very profitable due to the volume of hands you are playing. Buy the way the first opponent just plays to tight and is cannon fodder.
If you hear anything funny at the table this week please Email me at Hosh115@aol.com.
Remember play well and have fun!! Hosh
great post as usual...a while back mason posted that you had an e-site worth visiting..i lost it...anyone hosh's home pages...thanks...gl all..
Click 'Favorite Links' and then near the bottom is 'Poker Performance Psychology'.
nt
10-20, with a kill and its a kill pot. I have As,Qs in early position. I raise, 2 call, guy in late position re-raises, I cap, 2 callers call, so does late position. Flop is Ks, Jd, 2s. I have nut flush draw and a straight draw. I open, 1 call, other drops, late position raises, I re-raise, 1 call, late postion caps. 3 see the turn. It a rag. I open , caller drops, late position raises, I call. Turn is the 10h. I open, late position raises, I re-raise, he calls. I flip over my hand, he slams down K,K face up and starts saying "I cant believe you took all that heat, with that hand, to catch one card,I cant believe it" His friend next to him points out I had the nut flush draw after the flop. The guy stares ahead for a minute, then resumes his "I cant believe you took all that heat" routine.
Comments on my play, his comments, etc., welcomed.
Gee Rod, Welcome to Texas hold'em California style. I think you played the hand terribly but WTF, you won. The equity from semi-bluffing in this case is zero. there is absolutely no chance the late position guy will fold. If the game was short handed or if it was tight and passive then this play would have more value.
ps. don't know if you play in California but if you did you would feel right at home.
Big Rod,
I think you played your hand perfect.
I think you played the hand well. I think maybe someone with a different style might have played it differently but I think you can make good arguments for every play...
Technically maybe the reriase preflop is not that good as many hands most players will reraise w/ (eg AA, KK QQ AK) your hand doesn't play well against however I suspect if you only cap w/ AA and KK (and AKs), you are pbly giving away too much info. I don 't think one should reraise though if one isn't suited.
I think the flop play was very good considering the other player. When he reraises though I think you should stronly suspect KK. You make the flush or the straight about 40% of the time. I think one has to also note who are these players and how do they perceive you!? What is the guy in the middle doing!?
One might say to check the turn as you are now a underdog to any hand the preflop reraiser has, maybe checking gives away your hand though (eg a big draw).
The river play is good as it seems he can't believe the hand you have and thus raises.
I think one should be quiet when peopel talk about how bad you played or how much heat you took. You had the best of it on the flop (mainly bc of the player in the middle), but its better than people dont' know that you did (most people don't think that it is true).
I would play the hand as you did. I certainly would reraise preflop as I dont want to announce that I didnt have that strong of a hand.
As far as the comments are concerned, I sure seem to get them a lot also. Last week I played in Minnesota all week long and kept having the regulars there comment on how poorly I played. Of course, I played 8 sessions and came out a winner in seven of them. I made better than 2 big bets per hour during an 80 week of playing. Let em gripe.
As far as another posters comment that it is best not to say anything...I disagree. I normally tell them that I know that I dont know how to play and I am very fortunate that luck has a great deal to do with the game or I couldnt afford to play. I normally do this while I am stacking the chips.
Finally, you must in my opinion bet big draws like made hands. It forces your opponents to pay off the draws and the made hands alike. Anytime you are playing a red chip game or above your opponents, at least some of them, are watching how you play your hands...especially the draws.
Keep getting em!
Very well played on the flop , but terribly played on the turn , your the one who want a free card there .From early position I would have bet with many players still in the hand on the turn , but the right way was to check call .
I cannot imagine not betting the turn. My god you want to make a big pot when you have that big of a draw.
I was once told when raking in a small pot, "You get what you build."
I do understand that playing the way did and the way I certainly would also play increases your standard deviation and if you cant stand the swings then certainly dont play this way. BUT, the goal is to maximize the win rate per hour. Your betting as you did does that for sure. Plus, it really improves your table image which is always good for a few extra bets won in subsequent hands.
Checking the turn as suggested by Aces here is what I would call the Vegas way to play....or save every bet no matter how much it costs you in the long run method. The games that I play in (outside of vegas) dont play that way. Very few players play that way and those that do NEVER get paid off when they make their hand as you did.
When late-position caps the flop I would figure he most likely has AK, but I would not rule out AA or KK. Usually, someone caps preflop betting with AA or KK, but he may have just called your last pre-flop raise so that he could take advantage of his position on the flop.
Given that read, it does not make sense to bet out on the turn. You are not going to bluff him out, and you need to improve to win. With 10-12 outs you are an underdog so you should put as little money as possible into the pot on the turn.
I really like your play on the flop. With 2 opponents and 12 apparant outs you want to get as much money in the pot as you can. Betting rather than checking is the way to do it. If you check with the intention of raising, you are likely to knock out some players that would otherwise be trapped if you bet out. Good play.
What can you say about his comments? He's mad because he lost. If he mistakenly thinks you are a major fish for drawing to a gut-shot, then so much the better. This is a good example of how a player fails to understand how is opponent is playing because he is too steamed to think clearly. It's amazing that he continued to overlook the fact that you were on a flush draw even after it was pointed out to him.
Steve
I would not have capped it preflop with AQs
I would have check called on the turn.
You made more money then I would have
Derrick
This is the example of the save every bet theory of poker rather than the maximize the win rate theory.
I see where you are coming from in reguards to capping preflop with so many callers. However, I don't see how betting/raising the turn vs. one opponent does anything other than lose money in the long run (since he's not going to fold, your bets are being matched 1:1, and you win <50% of the time).
I'm a little new to the stat. analysis, so please explain if my logic is messed up, but "you have to build a pot" doesn't seem terribly valid in this situation. The pot is already quite large.
Wow, and I thought I was aggressive at the poker table.
Sometimes, when you see a stop light, its okay to stop.
I wouldnt have capped it pre-flop since your most likely behind with your AQs, but since you had 2 limpers its not that bad.
I also wouldnt have re-raised the flop. You dont want to chase away all your callers, plus its probably slight -EV even if you get 1 caller.
The only truely bad mistake you made was betting the turn. At this point, your odds are in the dirt. Try to hit as cheaply as possible at this point. You aint going to buy a pot this big, so what is the point in betting?
The river plays itself.
I agree with most of what you said, but you're probably making money on every bet with this board. So reraising on the flop is fine, IMHO. You don't have enough info to assume you are playing vs. a set, and you'll do fine vs. AK, and even better vs. KQ.
I ran some simulations. AK vs. AQs vs. unkown, with that flop, the AQs wins 45% of the time which is quite a lot over the 33 needed to profitably raise if you assume one caller. Vs. KK you are down to right at 33% about, depending on what the 3rd player has. But since AK is so much more likely than KK, I think a reraise is fine, depending on whether you think you can expect 1 caller. With 2 callers it is clear.
but seriously, i would probably check the turn.
brad
Playing in a loose 10 handed 20/40 game. I pick up JJ on the button. UTG raises, 2 callers, I 3 bet. BB calls, everybody else calls. We take the flop 5 handed.
UTG is a loose player that calls to much pre-flop, but I respect his pre-flop raises, even though they are slightly looser than mine. He plays pretty good post flop, except that he suffers from major FPS which makes him very unpredictable sometimes.
Flop comes K87 rainbow.
At this point, I am about 95% certain I am beat. Also, I am 90% certain that UTG will wait until the turn to check-raise me if I bet the flop. So the question is, do I check the flop, take the free card and then fold to a bet on the turn. Or do I bet the flop, and then check the turn through and take the free river card?
If the flop bet, and then check the turn through is the proper play, how often does it have to work for this to be the most profitable play?
Anyway, I bet the flop, everybody calls. 20.5 SBs in the pot. Turn brings another King, and everybody checks to me. I take the free river card. Its a blank. UTG bets, all fold to me. Anybody not advocate not calling here? I think its a routine call, but this may be a leak in my game so I would like opinions. I call, BB folds.
Results later.
He had the much anticipated AK.
Haven't seen the results, but looks like a pretty routine hand. 3 betting pre-flop is borderline because you have 2 players in between. Betting the flop is also borderline because of the numbers involved but given your description I think a bet is fine.
Thoughts I have:
1. Why 3 bet JJ here? A UTG raise commands some respect and there are 2 cold callers who probably have something here. Heads up it would be completely different, but your raise makes the pot that much bigger, making it more difficult to dump this hand on the flop if it comes ugly. And if you are not already behind you sure don't want to see a card bigger then a Jack on the flop.
2. You believe you are almost certainly beat. So you need a Jack to (maybe) win the pot, assuming you cannot win by making an uncalled bet. If your strategy of betting the flop to get a free turn card works, you have 2 shots at a Jack, which you will hit about 8% of the time. So this looks like a slightly positive situation. (Cost of $20 to win 8% of a $400 pot)
But will you win 8% of the pots? No. Everyone called your flop bet so a Jack will lose if anyone has T9, if a King comes (like happened) and your opponent has a King, or if the the turn comes with an A, Q, or T (making a possible straight with the river Jack, or even a flush could beat your set of Jacks here.
3. You lost $120 on this hand, when you should have lost $40.
My opinion only A9
I believe your play is fine. I think the play of the AK is awful. He should simply bet out and see what happens. He cant beat AA or KK but the later is very unlikely since he has one and one is on the board.
Why play this hand in a fancy manner? The is even more true when the fancy manner is something that you, his opponent, expects. He got the minimum out of a nice hand that is still very vulnerable to two pair etc.
Often I find that playing a hand straight forward when others would expect you to play it in a fancy manner is the way to maximize my winnings from the pot. For example, Saturday night in a 20-40 HE game I am on the button with AA. It is raised to me and three bet. We have five players in the pot. The flop comes Ace high. It is checked to me and I bet. All call. The turn is the 4th ace. Checked to me and I bet. I get three callers. The river brings in a straight possibility. Checked to me and I bet. I still get one caller. How could I possibly have made more playing the hand any other way. Checking the flop sends up warning signs after an pre-flop raise rather than sending a mixed signal.
In fact, after the play of my AAAA hand, one player said I just couldnt belive you had AA because you bet the flop. I just knew that if you flop a set of aces you would check them.
Right. But if you flop a set of Kings with an Ace on board ( flop of AKx) do you usually bet that?
A9
Same 20/40 game as previous post. 4 callers, and I check Js9s in the BB. Flop comes down J42, all clubs. I bet, 1 caller (UTG from previous post). Turn brings the Ad. I bet, caller raises.
What next?
Results, and my action to follow.
I fold, and he flips over 8sKd. Looks like he called the flop bet just to pull that move on the turn.
I think he did that because I bet a lot of flops from up front, and he didnt think I had a real hand. This is not the flop I would try to steal on though, especially against 4 opponents. There are very few flops I would try to steal on with 4 opponents.
I don't bet this flop. In the games I play in no one is going to lay down a better J. I check the flop and see what happens. I either raise or fold right there.
The ace is a terrible card and it's hard to imagine how you are ahead against a normal opponent now. I would check fold the turn.
I think check-folding is to weak. If I show weakness here, my opponent is going to bet anything. To give this up is giving up to much. I still like my bet on the turn.
I didnt participate in this hand, but I still thought it was interesting. 20/40 game, with some tourist from Michigan who keeps bragging about how much he tears up the 20/40 game at Soaring Eagle.
Two callers, and 4 off the button raises. 3 off the button (the Michigan tourist) 3 bets. Button calls, and both limpers call. Flop comes KJ6, all spades. First raiser bets, Mr Michigan (MM) raises. All fold to first raiser, who calls. Turn brings the Ace of spades to put 4 spades on board. First raiser bets, and MM flips pocket aces face up and says really loudly, "I aint drawing to my 6 outer against a made flush!". There were 24 SBs in the pot when he made this fold.
One, he was insane to lay it down. And two, he has 10 solid outs, not 6, unless the guy has a straight flush. The bettor turns over 8c8s and says, "nice fold! I had the flush!".
So I called for a chip runner and bought more ammo, cause I had a feeling it was going to be a good night!
I've always been amazed by these type of folds. What happens is that someone correctly concludes that they are beat and they fold not realizing that they are making the intermediate mistake of not taking into account the size of the pot.
I am also impressed by how often a little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing to some of these tourists.
I recently saw some one fold trip K's agains a 4 flush board in 7stud. "He has a flush" was their comment. I tried very hard to keep my mouth shur when some other loudmouth said ," well trips is a 'dog' to a flush on 6th."
I didn't say another word.
keeping your mouth shut? must be a hoax.
Intermediate mistake? You are too kind, sir. Anyone who regularly plays a 20-40 game and can't calculate basic outs and pot odds should be in a 3-6 game. Not to mention the strong possiblity that heads up his fellow competitor doesn't have a spade at all.
Even those of us who are known to "like to gamble" a bit on draws, and may not always play so solidly as they should, know these things. It's like playing baseball without knowing the strike zone.
The reason I call it an intermediate mistake is that he did fugure out that he was beaten at that point in time. A beginner woudn't know that. But then the beginner would call and by accident make the right play.
I'm no 20/40 expert, but sheesh. I would RAISE the turn before I would consider laying it down. Look at the effect this would have on the guy with the 88. Now he's got to decide if he's willing to put up another $80 to have the guy show him something like Qs-Qh, for example. But then,I suppose the advanced level thinking might be "He can't have the Qs, or he'd smoothcall and pop the river".
Even if the 88 guy calls, you've got 10 outs, and you might even make the guy lay it down on the turn. Or do the 20-40 players "keep you honest" just like the 3-6 players?
I never worry about a player who comes into a game as an unknown and brags about how much he wins back home.
It is one thing to lay the hand down. It is idiotic to then show the whole table. If he wants to present the correct image for later, he should reraise.
Against a "typical" player I raise with my set of Aces 99.9% of the time. I would think the reasons are obvious; I will list them only to see if someone responds showing me why one or more of them is/are incorrect.
1. Unless my opponent holds the nut flush it is highly unlikely I will be re-raised and there is a very real possibility of him throwing his hand away if he holds a lower flush. I haven't worked out the, math but off the top of my head it seems as though if my opponent thows his hand away as little as 10% of the time - even if he rereraises a small percentage of the time - I am way ahead. With 12 big bets in the pot and 10 outs (in point of fact I have 3 extra "half" outs since the Qs, Ts, and the 9s give me a split although I can't possibly know this) a raise might even show a profit if my opponent mucks a better hand as little as 5% of the time - large pot + alot of outs. (I'm a little tired; perhaps someone would like to crunch the numbers.)
2. Not only is there a very good chance that my opponent is betting a hand that does not include a spade, there is more than a small chance that he is betting a hand that is TOTALLY dominated yet one that he will call my raise with. Specifically, I am thinking of KK, or JJ; AK or 66 are even possible, albeit far less likely. If he holds any of these hands and we both "get there" on the river, my stack is going to get very healthy, very quickly.
3. He may be betting put as a pure bluff; if this is the case I lose alot by not chasing him in the event that the 5th spade lands and causes a split.
There are probably even a few other reasons, but based just on the ones I have listed am I wrong in thinking that a raise is almost automatic ???
Replies not only welcome but requested -
- J D
30-60 game at Bay 101 this weekend. There was a truly bad player who played *every* hand preflop unless it was raised, and then played 80% of his hands. After the flop he'd call with any pair, any draw, or any overcard. No bluffing this guy, but you can value bet a pair or a decent A much of the time. He called himself the Caca King.
So this of course changed the whole game. Everyone wanted to be part of the fish action, and was playing worse cards to do it. Lots of three betting the King's raise to try and get heads up, and so on.
The hand:
I am in the BB with 66. Third to act is an extremely aggressive semi-pro, who in my opinion has gotten way *over* aggressive in this game against the fish. I've watched him bet all the way with out the ability to back it up -- he doesn't seem to take into account the other players, he's totally focused on the fish.
At any rate, he raises. Fish calls, button calls, sb folds, I call. Flop comes 952 rainbow.
What's the plan here? I very well could have the best hand.
I check, agro pro bets, fish calls, button folds, I raise. Call, cal.
Turn is a 7. I bet, pro calls, fish folds.
River is an A.
What should I do, and why?
- target
n/t
these types of hands are hard to evaluate on this 2+2 format. At any rate, given that Mr. pro poker player stayed with you on the turn, your 6-6 has gone way down in value. I think you should bet on the river hoping to scare him off a bigger pocker pair or a 9. If he raises you have an easy lay down. if you check you must call if he bets.
If your hand was stronger check/call might be a better option as you are almost guaranteed that if you check he will bet. might as well bet and give him a chance to lay down.
I check-called. He had A6s, for a pair of aces.
Nice hand, sir.
More to the point, was my 66 strong enough to play really hard in that situation? After the check on the flop, I'm playing against an aggressive player who may or may not have a hand, and a fish who doesn't have a hand yet but there's no way to put him on cards.
In retrospect, I think I may have played it too hard. The aggro player up front had a worse hand than I gave him credit for, which means he could have had top pair or a pocket pair higher than mine. I put him on overcards, not one overcard with a baby.
It was a case of giving him *too* much credit for starting hands, and making a dangerous play because of it.
What he was doing calling the flop raise is beyond me. The turn bet he has a gutshot and an ace, which I guess is marginally callable.
- target
are you sure this guy is a semi-pro? What is a semi-pro?
I would much rather play K-10o then sixes against this fish. With K-10o you can flop a pair and be pretty sure it is good, and squeeze every last drop out of it. You had him dead in the actual hand, since his six was dead, but I still would rather have K-10o. King high might win unimproved.
.
This guy is a pro. I've played with him before, always thought he was good but really aggressive. I put the semi in front of it this time, since I was somewhat taken aback by the fact that he raised A6 in earlyish position.
- target
Pro has something like AK, but it could easily be as weak as QJ in this feeding frenzy. Check and call. The pot is big enough to call, despite your chances looking bleak. If he bets, he either has nothing (most likely king high), or else an ace or a set. It's unlikely that he would thin value bet a 7 or 9 or TT-KK here, unless he is extremely good, and this makes checking and calling appealing.
Back on the flop, I would have bet out, and let the pro raise to isolate me with his overcards, hopefully getting rid of all the other overcards in the process.
-Abdul
Would he be right to play weak hands like QJ there? It's not a big favorite against a random hand, and it's a huge dog to hands that other people besides the fish will be playing.
How much should you change your play to take into account the massive fish action?
re: betting the flop, I take it you'd bet-call the flop then bet out on the turn, then, assuming the pro raised the flop?
- target
Where are we? Third to act, nine-handed? So, that's four off the button? Open-raising with QJ is not totally insane there and may be correct in this situation. I routinely open-raise three off the button with QJ. When you've got someone cold-calling with 80% of their hands (which is everything better than J6, Q4, 72, etc.), you generally can profitably open-raise with a little weaker hands than normal for the position, even your offsuit hands. If it's likely to be a many-way pot with insane raise wars, then reconsider.
If it's a situation where I have a chance of getting heads up with the mega-fish, like if the mega-fish open-calls one off the button and I've got the button, then almost any two cards is worth a raise here, IMO, at least if the mega-fish is bad enough of a player heads up.
However, as a rule, in these types of feeding frenzy games I play tight. There tend to be more raises than normal preflop, as well as more aggression postflop, so I just sit and wait for a hand, and get paid off big time when I finally get one. All the equity in these games is getting pumping into big pairs, big suited aces, and a few other hands.
Regarding what to do if you bet your 66 on the flop, get raised, and call, well, if you're heads up on the turn, I think you have some flexibility. It's not so smart for AK to take a free card there, so you can let him if you wish. Suppose it goes check-check on the turn, and then a low card comes on the river - now you can value bet your 66, and he has to pay you off with AK or even KQ. Also, if you would fold to a raise and not know that it was correct, then avoid getting raised by checking. If you had position on the turn, then I'd say definitely bet. You should also bet when out of position if there is a decent chance your opponent will lay down overcards or could have such weak overcards that you won't know whether the river hit him and he won't pay you off if the river misses him.
If you're pretty sure, but not completely sure, that your opponent has AK or similar no pair, then here's an evil thing you can do to him with your 66: bet and back off to his raise on the flop, check-call the turn, and then value bet on the river, except of course when an ace, king, or queen hits the board.
-Abdul
20/40 game, and I pick up red aces in the BB. 6 callers, SB limps, and I raise. All call. Flop comes T64 with 2 hearts. I bet out, 5 off button raises, 2 cold callers, and button 3 bets.
What is my play?
I am definitely not happy at getting this much action, but I dont feel like I can lay down my aces at this point, so I cap it. Everybody calls, so 5 see the turn. Turn brings an offsuit 7, and I bet out. 5 off the button calls, one of the cold callers raises. Next guy folds, button cold calls.
I fold, 5 off button folds. Two see the river, which is the 9 of hearts. So the board looks like T6479. First guy checks, button bets, first guy calls.
Anybody agree/disagree with the way I played this?
Joe,
I might not cap the flop and would tend to check the turn with the intention of calling all but the heaviest action since the pot is so big (three-way for three bets would get me to lay down). You may be the one who wants a free or cheap card so betting the turn usually just costs you. They know YOU can't hit this board hard but you can't discount THEM hitting this board hard. So the money will go in no matter what, and some of the time it will go in with a pair/draw type hands that you still have worthwhile outs to.
Regards,
Rick
I count 23 big bets in the pot right before you folded. With this many players and this much money in the pot, I don't think all the raise is bluffing. I think the cold-caller who then raised on the turn has a set or hit his inside straight draw on the turn. You are getting 23:2 and you could be drawing dead, but you might have 2 outs.
Good fold in a huge pot.
Steve
I made a mistake, I see that you only need to call 1 big bet on the turn, not 2. So you should call with current pot odds being 23:1. That's a little more enough for a 2-outer because the pot should build a bit more. This allows you to call even though there is a small chance that you are drawing dead.
Since the pot was so big that would have to call a raise, then checking would have been better. If it had been bet and raised by the cold caller, then you could have folded.
Steve
Well, I dont know what 5 off the button had, but it looks like I may have been ahead on the flop.
The turn raiser hit his inside straight draw to the nuts on the turn. He had 98o. The button had 7h8h and hit his flush on the river.
5-handed 20/40 planet game
I had been having a brutal session (even for shorthanded) where I can't catch a flop and can't seem to bluff anyone out either. Probably because they have noticed I can't catch a flop :) Nevertheless, I am trying to maintain a pretty aggressive game (though I have cut down somewhat on my bluffs for this session).
UTG calls, next folds, I raise with KsQc. SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls
Flop comes: 2s 6h 8s
BB checks, UTG checks, I check.
I normally bet in these spots (in a shorthanded game) but i had been checkraised on the flop holding overcards many times during this session, so this might have played a part in my decision to take a free card.
Turn comes Qs
BB bets out, UTG folds, what do you do? What is your plan for the river?
Results to be posted later.
I don't play 20/40, but I like reading this forum to gain insight for when I get there.
In this hand, I would raise on the turn. (I would think he would have bet the flop if he had a Ax or Kx spade draw, unless he was checkraising) then call if he plays back at me. I would really want to give him a chance to fold here, especially since you raised preflop.
If you have been betting your overcards strong and missing, he most likely will call you down with a worse hand in case you have AK again.
If a blank hit the river, I would call or bet if he checked. If another spade fell, I would have to rely on what I had observed previously in the play of the BB, but most of the time I would raise if he bet and bet if he checked.
I would be interested to hear some middle limit players' comments on my suggestions.
I misread your post and thought you had the Qs, not the Ks.
I'd raise every time.
Well, I think you raise. Unless you are up against AsXs, you can't go very wrong by raising here.
If you just call, he may not necessarily bet the river if he was just betting a pair on the turn (but he may call a turn raise to try and fluke out). He may also check if a 4th spade hits.
One advantage of calling is that maybe you get him to bluff twice if he has nothing but given the image that you currently held, it may not be a bad idea to start showing them who is boss at this time.
Obviously, folding is out of the question even if he makes it three bets after you raise (given your ks draw). You are going to make him show down a winner if he 3 bets.
I'll post my reponse before reading the others.
I think your check on the flop is a good one. There is little chance that you will get a better hand to fold, and you may not have the best hand. Plus, with a 3-flush, a free card has a lot of value to you. So you should usually take it. I would bet only if I thought that there was a very good chance that I had the best hand.
On the turn you have top pair and a flush draw, which is a great hand. I would raise for value. You probably have the best hand. Since the flop was checked, the big blind could have a lot of different hands. Many of them are drawing hands where he will call your raise. If he reraises, then I would call him down. Based on what you said about how the game was going, this player could be trying to push you around because he does not give any credibility to your raise.
If a spade comes on the river (besides the Ace), I think you have a tough decision if your opponent checks. He certainly will call with a smaller flush, but how small of a flush could he have given that you have the K and the Q is on board? I'm really uncertain, but I think you should check it down in this situation unless the big blind is a very loose player.
If a spade does not come on the river and your opponent checks, then I would bet. You'd have to call if check-raised because the pot is so big, but it's worth that risk.
I would call on the river if my opponent bet into me no matter what. His bet could be a desparation bet.
Steve
I think it is clearly a call on the turn.
You can be beat and you lose less this way. Yuo can be ahead, and may get a call on the river or get him to bluff again.
I would check and call the turn, and ditto on the river. If checked to on the river, bet. I would follow this plan whether or not a spade hit, unless its the ace of spades, then raise.
Your hand is good, but not a huge favorite. I think passive play is best here.
Good luck.
Dan Z.
I would raise. If I didnt have the Ks, I might just call. But I think I still raise.
Raise. If he 3-bets, call him down.
Plan to bet the river, unless an offsuit ace comes. If you are bet into on the river, call.
Raise, you likely are best right now and if not you have a strong redraw with the Ks. If the river is a spade and opponent bets into me I would raise again and call if opponent 3 bet me. If he checked the river I would bet for value unless an 8 or 6 fell, in which case I would check it down after my opponent checked into me, or would call if he bet into me.
Well I did raise, like most of you suggested.
BB called.
River is a blank (no spade).
BB checks, I check.
BB has two small spades for the winner.
I really didn't figure the BB for the made flush on the turn. I had him more in line with a complete bluff or a semibluff with the As. When he called the raise I realized he might have a made flush or As. I planned on checking/calling the river unless a spade came, in which case I would bet if checked to me.
This was just one of those sessions where everything goes wrong. It can really make you doubt your game. Lucking back I think at least in this situation I probably made the right play.
With one very loose player two seats to my left on a smoke break and after the normally super-loose UTG player on my immediate right folds for the first time that day (he was just getting a meal served – don't you hate the way table side food can tighten up the loose players?), I open raise in what is for the moment a fairly tight and un-aggressive eight handed 15/30 holdem game with Kd-Qc. All fold except for the big blind (BB).
BB is a card room regular and we know each other's play well. Generally, the BB tends to over-defend in the blind a bit, even against a solid early raiser. The BB is capable of very aggressive play, and has semi-bluffed me off the best hand in the past when the board comes scary and the BB senses I might have missed. I would categorize the BB as tricky and tenacious in a head up situation.
The flop comes Ad-Tc-4d. The BB checks and I bet my inside straight and backdoor flush draw, especially given that this board could very well have hit me from the BB's perspective. The BB calls. I don't like the call but the BB does tend to take one off on this round a bit too often.
The turn is the 7d. The BB comes out betting. With a little more than four big bets in the pot and a nut flush and inside straight draw, folding is unthinkable with 11 or 12 outs to the nuts. So the choice is between calling and raising.
Note that the BB is a frequent semi-bluffer. After check-calling the flop, the BB is certainly capable of turn betting plausible draws such as the Qd-Jx, Kx-Qd, Qx-Jd. The BB is also capable of playing any playable ten in this manner (check-calling the flop and betting the turn), especially if the ten is accompanied by a decent diamond kicker.
Of course, the BB could bet a medium ace (e.g., A-J) in order to prevent a free card. OTOH, I've often seen BB rope-a-dope (i.e., check-call) this sort of hand head up against an early raiser, so I discounted the ace to a degree. The BB also won't defend with weaker aces than about A8 against a solid early raiser, which further discounted the probability of an ace. I didn't put the BB on a middle pair, since the BB would usually three-bet this hand head up, even against an early raiser (which is a bit over-aggressive IMO). So if I caught a king or non-diamond queen I planned to check down the river since any ace would always call me, but a worse pair (primarily those that include a ten) probably would not. BTW, if I missed my hand I planned to bluff on the river since the BB would be about 50/50 to call the river with a hand such as Td-Jc. Obviously the BB could also hold a big hand such as a completed flush or even a set
Assuming my observations about BB's play are correct, what is my best move on the turn? If you think it is close, please state so. I'll post my actual turn play and more about the hand when I get home tonight.
Regards,
Rick
Your assumptions make the answer not close. Do a little math.
I think a raise is the correct play on the turn. You have 11 or 12 outs to the nuts, plus any K or Q may give you the best hand, thus you have a potential of 18 outs to win the pot. You say he may have a Ten here, well that is a weak holding with this board in my opinion, based on your play and your position. Is he capable of laying this down on the turn? I'm not sure how to do the math on this one, as Sklansky suggests, but I suppose a raise is the best play.
If you do the math I would appreciate it if you post it here.
If you do the math I would appreciate it if you post it here.
David rather bluntly stated that I should do the math. The reality is that I don't routinely spend the time on the math to figure out this sort of thing. I do believe that if I want to advance, I must do so for a variety of baseline situations similar to this one. Once you are confident based on mathematical analysis, you are more likely to make the correct decision in the future in similar situations.
David or Abdul or Mason or Jim Brier could figure out the combinations in an hour or less and it would take me all morning (at this point). Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now. Maybe someone who is fast with calculating the various probabilities and combinations would figure out the correct play.
Regards,
Rick
I sat down and started to the math just now, but I'm in the middle of doing some actual homework for university and this will just take too much time doing it my way. Probably take around 1hr or so.
My method would be to calculate the EV for each of the hands your opponent may hold (which I figure, based on your analysis, would be: AA, 44 (not TT or 77 because u mention he would 3 bet u preflop), TdJx, TdQx, TdKx, TdAx, QdJx, KxQd, QxJd, +more that I can't think of). Once the expecation for each of these hands has been calculation I would then have to multiply the probability that your opponent holds each of these hands by the value associated with each hand, sum these results and bang, we would know your EV for raising the turn.
Shitty thing is that I would then have to do this all over again for just calling and then see which one was better.
So, I'm not going to do it. It would take too long and I don't even know if my method is right. Also, even if my method WAS right I'm not sure I would take in all the possible hands your opponent may have (such as Td9d). There are just too many variables for this equation.
If I did it and someone checked it and told me if I was right/wrong and where I made any mistakes than it would be beneficial for me to do it as an excersise, but if not it would just take too much time.
Sorry Rick, I want to do it, but I need to get some real homework done first. If I get my stuff done then I hope to come back to this problem (might even write a program to solve it, which may be easier).
Mark,
I just called Hero at work and she agreed that cocktails or dinner is on us if you are ever in the area.
You wrote: ”Probably take around 1hr or so.”
It would take me three hours at least
”My method would be to calculate the EV for each of the hands your opponent may hold (which I figure, based on your analysis, would be: AA, 44 (not TT or 77 because u mention he would 3 bet u preflop), TdJx, TdQx, TdKx, TdAx, QdJx, KxQd, QxJd, + more that I can't think of).
I would add KxJd, and Td9x. She also is capable of betting all those hands without a diamond in the hope I will lay down medium high pairs without a diamond such as JcJs. Of course she would also bet made flushes, but I discount this in that she would often bet the flop or checkraise the flop with flush draws. She probably won't bet on a pure bluff after check-calling the flop so you can eliminate pure bluffing hands.
Another problem is that she will bet many (but not all) of her misses on the river (if I just call) putting me in a tough spot.
”Once the expecation for each of these hands has been calculation I would then have to multiply the probability that your opponent holds each of these hands by the value associated with each hand, sum these results and bang, we would know your EV for raising the turn. Shitty thing is that I would then have to do this all over again for just calling and then see which one was better.”
With all that work if you go for the cocktails drink top shelf and we will pay for the cab ride home : -).
Regards, Mark,
I just called Hero at work and she agreed that cocktails or dinner is on us if you are ever in the area.
You wrote: ”Probably take around 1hr or so.”
It would take me three hours at least
”My method would be to calculate the EV for each of the hands your opponent may hold (which I figure, based on your analysis, would be: AA, 44 (not TT or 77 because u mention he would 3 bet u preflop), TdJx, TdQx, TdKx, TdAx, QdJx, KxQd, QxJd, + more that I can't think of).
I would add KxJd, and Td9x. She also is capable of betting all those hands without a diamond in the hope I will lay down medium high pairs without a diamond such as JcJs. Of course she would also bet made flushes, but I discount this in that she would often bet the flop or checkraise the flop with flush draws. She probably won't bet on a pure bluff after check-calling the flop so you can eliminate pure bluffing hands.
Another problem is that she will bet many (but not all) of her misses on the river (if I just call) putting me in a tough spot.
”Once the expecation for each of these hands has been calculation I would then have to multiply the probability that your opponent holds each of these hands by the value associated with each hand, sum these results and bang, we would know your EV for raising the turn. Shitty thing is that I would then have to do this all over again for just calling and then see which one was better.”
With all that work if you go for the cocktails drink top shelf and we will pay for the cab ride home : -).
Regards,
Rick
David,
I don't think it was close either so I didn't do the math (especially at the table). But I got my chops busted endlessly on this one post-mortum by a friend (who agreed that my assuptions were correct) and wanted some other opinions. More about that later in the evening.
Regards,
Rick
Against a player like this, I think if there is any hand I would raise here, it is yours. There is a chance you have the best hand, with nut no pair. You'll be able to get at least one more bet when you make the nuts. Also, it's unlikely you'll get raised back, because you "could" have the nuts, with Kh and three hearts on board.
You say, "He has semi-bluffed me off the best hand when the board comes scary." He could be, from his perspective, trying to get you off 99, 88,77 with a hand like 66, 55, 44. He would likely fold these hands if you raise. (He may also be "protecting" his hand from a gut shot with these small pairs, head up, but be happy to give them up for a raise.)
If a K or Q comes, he may not bet, but neither can you. In this case, you lose a bet when you make a better hand.
Most of the time when you call someone down on the end without a pair, you would have an A. However, when there is an A on the board, I think it is a lot harder to call someone down on the end, with K high. (There are just too many ways you opponent could have an A.) I guess, where it could be close, from a math perspective, is when you compare the ratio of hands he would bet for value to the hands he would bluff on the end. This is all the more reason to raise the turn.
I'm sure you raised here, Rick. I would have raised here, too. However, for me, it would have been because my autonomic nervous system would have thrown $60 into the pot before my conscience mind could have gotten a word in edgewise. My conscience mind would have then said, "What did you just do?" My autonomic nervous system would have said, "It just felt right." My conscious mind would have said,"Well, we have nut flush draw, a gut shot, and we might have some thinking to do on the river, if we don't improve. I guess it's okay."
I'm afraid there are some situations, that appear, on the surface, to be similar to this one, where I would automatically raise, but it would be incorrect to do so. I must find a way to identify them. Thinking through a hand helps, I think. Thanks for the post.
Next hand I would have been dealt 93o, my autonomic nervous system mucks. Flop comes 999. I don't care because my conscience mind would have not even looked at my cards.
Gabe
Gabe,
You wrote: ”Against a player like this, I think if there is any hand I would raise here, it is yours. There is a chance you have the best hand, with nut no pair. You'll be able to get at least one more bet when you make the nuts. Also, it's unlikely you'll get raised back, because you "could" have the nuts, with Kh and three hearts on board.”
Good point about not being raised back. Of course that wasn't the way it worked out (see results below).
You wrote again ”You say, "He has semi-bluffed me off the best hand when the board comes scary." He could be, from his perspective, trying to get you off 99, 88,77 with a hand like 66, 55, 44. He would likely fold these hands if you raise. (He may also be "protecting" his hand from a gut shot with these small pairs, head up, but be happy to give them up for a raise.) If a K or Q comes, he may not bet, but neither can you. In this case, you lose a bet when you make a better hand.
Good point. Hero “E” could easily bet a small pair on the turn head up even though it is a stretch against an early raiser. BTW, I never used the word “he” in my gender-neutral post :-)
”Most of the time when you call someone down on the end without a pair, you would have an A. However, when there is an A on the board, I think it is a lot harder to call someone down on the end, with K high. (There are just too many ways you opponent could have an A.) I guess, where it could be close, from a math perspective, is when you compare the ratio of hands he would bet for value to the hands he would bluff on the end. This is all the more reason to raise the turn.”
Good point concerning calling down with a king high versus ace high.
”I'm sure you raised here, Rick. I would have raised here, too. However, for me, it would have been because my autonomic nervous system would have thrown $60 into the pot before my conscience mind could have gotten a word in edgewise. My conscience mind would have then said, "What did you just do?" My autonomic nervous system would have said, "It just felt right." My conscious mind would have said,"Well, we have nut flush draw, a gut shot, and we might have some thinking to do on the river, if we don't improve. I guess it's okay."
YOU GOT IT! You are completely inside my mind and I am very impressed!
“I'm afraid there are some situations, that appear, on the surface, to be similar to this one, where I would automatically raise, but it would be incorrect to do so. I must find a way to identify them. Thinking through a hand helps, I think. Thanks for the post.”
I had to think through it given the heat I was taking from Hero (not about the beat I gave her, but that she thinks I played it wrong). With her, I am trying to help convert a talented, intelligent, quick-thinking, focused, intense, former recreational gambler into a player. I never was a gambler and sometimes it is hard for me to make my reasoning understood. Thanks for the help.
”Next hand I would have been dealt 93o, my autonomic nervous system mucks. Flop comes 999. I don't care because my conscience mind would have not even looked at my cards.”
Hero is still at the point that she would be bothered by what came on the flop after folding her trash. In the meantime, she is getting the money about ten times faster than I am. I win some of the little ones while Hero takes down the multi-way monsters.
Regards,
Rick
>>”I'm sure you raised here, Rick. I would have raised here, too. However, for me, it would have been because my autonomic nervous system would have thrown $60 into the pot before my conscience mind could have gotten a word in edgewise. My conscience mind would have then said, "What did you just do?" My autonomic nervous system would have said, "It just felt right." My conscious mind would have said,"Well, we have nut flush draw, a gut shot, and we might have some thinking to do on the river, if we don't improve. I guess it's okay."
YOU GOT IT! You are completely inside my mind and I am very impressed!<<
Give me a break. What you were really thinking was, "I'm sick and tired of her overplaying her hands and getting so lucky. She shouldn't have called me before the flop. I'm a much better player than she is, and I'm going to teach her a lesson."
;o)
I'll bet someone agrees with me.
I would think that he is betting the turn either as a semi-bluff, as you said, or he is afraid of giving you a free card. He could have a pocket pair, and wants to determine if you have an Ace without calling down to the river. I could see him playing this way with pocket 9's for example. Maybe this is a stretch, but given what you have said about this player, and how well he knows you, I would consider a hand like this a reasonable possibility. Normally, I would think that someone trying to make a play with a hand like this would check-raise on the flop. But with a flush draw that move does not work as often.
So, since you have such a good draw and he might fold a better hand, I would raise on the turn.
Steve
Steve,
As stated in my post, this big blind would three bet middle to upper pairs almost every time head up so a hand such as 99 was not likely. This player also would tend to checkraise with a ten more than the ace on the flop, preferring to rope-a-dope with the ace.
Regards,
Rick
Folding the turn is "unthinkable"? Why?
You have shown strength and now he is betting into you. He must be willing to accept that you have at least an ace. He comes out betting on the scary board, so he may be trying to push you off, and it seems likely that a made flush would try for a checkraise.
However, Im guessing you have 12 outs, (flush and straight), so you are about 4-1 to hit on the river, assuming all of your outs are good (eg, he doesn't have a low flush already, killing your jack outs, and he doesnt have two pair or a set already, killing one or two of your flush outs). Assuming all your outs are clean, you have just enough to call here with 4 BB in the pot. Also take into account that if your flush hits, your implied odds are pretty low to get a call on the river (I would guess).
I think you have just enough to call, but that is it.
Dave,
I agree that some outs may be tainted if my opponent has some of the hands you mention. Using the simple and conservative figure of 11 outs, I have 35 bad cards on the river and 11 good ones, which is 3.18 to 1 against. So at least a call is correct based on this figure given that the pot contains $130 after BB bets the turn (I'm getting 4.33 to 1).
My worse case is if my opponent has a made flush then I have seven outs but should get a call on the end. With seven outs I'm getting 5.6 to 1. I win $160 for a $30 call (assuming the call on the end) so even here I am getting 5.33 to 1 on a 5.6 to 1 shot. So I'm only making a small mistake if I somehow know my opponent has a flush.
If I'm up against a set or two pair only the 4d can make me a flush and my opponent a full. Also note that in 15/30 the folded small blind is 1/3 of a big bet so that impacts the close decisions.
All the other possibilities are far more likely, so I still think a fold is not correct or close.
Regards,
Rick
There are many, many hands he could play in this fashion. Or, let me say there are many, many hands I would play in this fashion with a 3 flush on board.
Hands I would play like this from the BB: AA-TT AK-A2 KQ,KJ,QJ with at least one of them being a diamond Tx as well as made flushes
I am not sure how many of these Rick's opponent would play like that with, but I am sure its a few.
So Rick could have as many as 16 outs and as few as 10. He could also be ahead.
I agree with David Sklansky that if my assumptions are correct then working through the math will definitively determine the answer. If we want to improve, we should work out these problems at the kitchen table, no matter how little we enjoy it. I still hope someone else does the math for now because I don't enjoy and am not very fast when it involves many painstaking calculations (at least for me). So I stand chastised for not doing the math. I'll work harder on it in the future if I ever have time.
At the table when faced with a decision as whether to raise or fold my thoughts were as follows:
1) I had about 12 outs to the nuts or near nuts so folding was not an option.
2) The BB was a frequent semi-bluffer, and could easily be betting a draw or a ten with a side flush card. Against a pure draw a raise is better since I will get called at least once. Against a ten with a diamond kicker a raise doesn't cost me anything since I will be just called and BB will check the river except when a diamond comes (if a diamond came, the aggressive BB may bet the second or third nut diamond flush into my nut diamond).
3) If the BB was betting a ten without a side diamond, a raise was even money or better to get the BB to lay it down on the turn right away. This is terrific for me. At worse, I just get called and get a cheap shot at my six additional outs (note that if the side card is a king or queen it only adds three outs).
4) The BB tends to rope-a-dope mediocre aces head up so the bet on the turn tended to deny an ace; however, aces up were certainly reasonable or any ace with a diamond was also reasonable. In this case calling is better since the ace will not fold and aces up would reraise.
5) I discounted a set of tens since BB would almost always reraise this hand heads up before the flop. The other sets were possible.
Anyway, based on the above I raised. Only the math will determine if I was correct, but it still “feels right”, “seems right”, and “looks right”. The problem is, are my assumptions correct?
In this case the BB reviewed a draft of my post and agreed that my assumptions regarding the way BB would play the hands I listed were very close to correct. But that still doesn't mean I included all possibilities. Here is what happened.
After I raised the turn, the BB reraised. Now I'm virtually certain I need to make a flush or straight to win but the pot is big enough so I call. I also might have made a crying call if I spike a non-diamond king or queen on the river, especially given the level of aggressiveness of the BB.
On the river I made my nut flush and the BB checked and called. The big blind had two black aces for top set. So I sucked out on a big hand.
The BB was my hero/student/girlfriend “E”. She has no qualms about me playing her hard (we never softplay), but she thinks I misplayed the hand when I raised on the turn. I've tried to explain that my turn raise was at worse debatable and that I do not have X-Ray vision. How did I know she had top set?
BTW, I think she played this hand well. Her aces are so dominate head up against a single early raiser that the smooth call before the flop in the big blind is a viable alternative to reraising (in fact it may be the best play against most opponents). She should harvest far more bets on later rounds using this tactic. BTW, it was the first time I've seen her use this play, so I didn't even consider trip aces at the time.
On the flop checking and calling three aces can't be bad, especially considering that my bet was almost automatic. Of course checkraising is an alternative but it is close (I think).
On the turn betting out is probably right in order to prevent giving me a free card, especially given that I might check behind her with many pairs and draws (since I would tend to fear her rope-a-doping an ace). Many of my check behind hands would include a diamond. Reraising is aggressive and usually correct head up, even in the presence of a three flush. You can't fear the worse here, especially considering I tend to limp with KQ suited in most games (note that I wouldn't limp with the loose player behind me walking, but she would have to be super-alert to notice this).
On the river the pot has become so big that her call is correct. Sorry about the long post.
Regards,
Rick
One of the keys here is that if you just call, you can expect to get bluffed out if you have the best hand but not if you raise.
David,
Agreed. Although inducing bluffs against an aggressive player with a turn call is often the right play, stopping bluffs against a player who will make brave river bluffs sometimes but not excessively should be right with a hand that is at best a borderline bluff catcher. I would hate to call the river with high no pair since so many of her river betting hands (if I just called the turn) will in fact be better. Hero is definitely capable of following through an unraised turn bet with a river bet (after she misses) holding a hand such as KQ, QJ, and KJ (most of these will contain one diamond). By raising the turn (I did not expect the reraise at the time), it costs me no more to see the river, since she will usually just call the turn with most of the hands I put her on and check the river (unless she hits HER flush, heh, heh!). It also helps that I had the king of diamonds since she can't have the nut flush.
I'd work out the math and combinations but I got to run and too lazy (but at least I can type :-) ). But I promise to work a few math problems out over the coming months. By no means am I anti-math. Analysis using math combined with good instincts and logic is the way to improve to the next level IMO. I'm almost always pressed for time.
Regards,
Rick
Tell "E" from me that she deserved a better fate. I smoothcalled the other day in 3-6 heads-up with AA, too, Rick, and see what it got me for action. Check out my "Deception Wasted on the Obtuse" post on Small Stakes. Not that I'm trying to imply that you are obtuse. lol.
10-20 Hold'Em
I have AsAh in middle position, I raise, one player calls 2 cold (he's weak, passive) and both blinds call. 4 way action.
Flop comes K 9 8 - all clubs. Check, check, I bet, weak passive raises, blinds fold, I raise, he calls.
Turn is the 4 of clubs. I bet without hesitation, he flat calls.
River is the A of diamonds.
I bet, he calls.
I say no club...he tells me how poorly I played the hand as he turns over K 9 of spades. I nod my head and stack it.
Comments?
Personally, if he really thought he had me beat he should have reraised the flop AND the turn. I knew he didn't have a club when he flat called the turn (he was bitching about me sucking out already).
The question is what range of hands YOU put him on. What hands would he call two bets cold with, see a flop with all clubs and then raise you. If he is weak passive, as you say he was, then my guess would be that you would have to beat on the flop. What could he raise you with that you could beat if he is weak passive? AcKx would be one of the few hands I can think of, mayb KxQc. In either case you are beat on the turn, or you were already beat on the river. Unless he is tricky I think you could safely check and fold on turn and maybe even fold on flop depending on your read.
I think you got lucky, but I'm glad you did and I'm happy that you were stacking the chips when the dust cleared. :)
This guy raises top pair, no kicker on a 3 flush board. Then calls 2 big bets with a 4 flush on board. Doesnt sound weak-passive to me.
And why in the world would you bet the river? If he is going to call the turn, he is going to call the river.
I entered my local club to play holdem, and they added a twist to the usual game...Ordinarily, the game is $10-20 with a half kill, whereby the winner of a pot over $150 posts a $15 blind on the next hand, which effectively boosts the stakes to $15-30. Yesterday, they were playing "Overs" whereby whomever chose to participate in the Overs played 20-40 when all of the nonparticipants were out of the pot. Since everyone is technically "in" before the pot, the stakes are always 10-20 before the flop, unless it is a kill pot. The game is played up to 12 handed, and is quite loose and wild. Most of the time, there were two to three nonparticipants and the rest played Overs.
What is the proper strategy for this? (By the way, I chose to play Overs). My initial reaction was that drawing hands are even more powerful than they ordinarily are in this loose game. The implied odds of hitting a hand are greater than normal when the stakes are pooped up. You can play the flop for a smaller bet in proportion to the big bet as long as a nonparticipant is in.( Sort of like those $10-10-20-40 stud games they have in some AC casinos). But is there a strategy for handling the nonparticipants? At some point, there was only one nonparticipant, who sat directly to my right. My instinct was that this was an advantage to me, in that I should try to raise her out of a pot when I've got a good, but not ordinarily raising hand, to get the stakes higher. But am I then putting myself at a disadvantage, since I've got 10 players behind me, plus the original bettor?
Also, notwithstanding everyone's assurances to the contrary, are the nonparticipants at any disadvantage (they certainly are if my instinct of raising them out of a pot is correct). Any advice is greatly appreciated. Steven Berkowitz berkowitz@mindspring.com
Hey Steve,
Mason has written a really good essay about playing with the overs button in one of his poker essays books. I like your ideas about implied odds, I'm not sure about eliminating the non participant. Mason does discuss this in the essay I'm referring to.
Steven,
I play in the same tpye of game, $10-$20 HE with a half kill and optional "Overs." I always play overs.
A couple of strategies I employ in these games:
1) Starting hands. In an average ring game without overs, I usually play S&M starting hands with some "Abdulian" texture. In overs, I play more hands like suited connectors and (small to mediam)pocket pairs when other "Overs" players are in.
2) Position. I try to get in the correct seat to act last after the other "Overs." Yesterday, I was able to sit to the left of the other four "Overs" players at a 10 handed game.
3) If I have a close call to play preflop, much depends if my "Overs" opponents are in or not.
Just a start as to some of my thoughts. Yours?
Bob
10-20 game, I'm in the BB with K-10 of hearts. 5 Limpers and the SB raises. I call as do all of the limpers.
Flop comes Qh-Jh-3c....SB checks, I bet, 2 Callers, Button raises, SB 3 bets....I cap. Everyone calls.
The Turn is the Ks...SB bets, I raise, everyone else folds.
River is the 6h, SB checks, I bet and win with the flush.
My question is, with the monster draw I'm going to call with anyway, was the play to cap the flop correct or did I get lucky and make my hand.
Thanks...Mike
Yes. Its not even close. You can jam with much less than that.
Cap for sure if everyone is just going to call. The only reason you wouldn't cap is if you were going to force a couple of people out by capping.
Doesn't sound like that kind of game though :D
Chris
In general, when someone else puts in a lot of raises, the less valuable your draw gets. This is especially true in those cardrooms where the cap is five bets and not four.
For example, there are some players who will only make it four bets if they have a set. If this is the case, your draw is not as good as it appears. Making the over pair won't win, and if the board pairs you are only drawing to the straight flush cards.
Very true Mason. I'm not so sure whether I like the turn raise that much. First of all, it got all the other players out of the pot (Ahxh won't fold here anyway, so it's not a case of getting out hands that can out-draw you). Secondly, when SB comes right out betting on the turn, after you capped it on the flop, he is signalising a monster. At least AA, but probably QQ or JJ (I actually think 33 would consider check-calling the turn after a capped flop and a straight-possibility showing up on the turn - of course QQQ and JJJ would also be beat by a straight, but they are more likely ahead unless someone has AT or T9).
Simply put, I don't think you have the best hand when you catch top pair on the turn, and there's a very real possibility the SB might re-raise. Of course you have plenty of outs, but maybe not so many as you'd like to think (I'd only call here if a heart pairs the board on the river). 2 K's might be an out, 3 T's remotely possible heads-up, while all four aces are definite outs. Sure, it's one hell of a monster hand to have with one card to go, but still you do NOT want to find yourself re-raised by SB with everyone else out of it.
The cap it on the flop is good if you think that you will get 2-3 callers anyway (you got four right? That's amazing). I don't like the raise on the turn.
As a last note, I think a small flaw in very many good, but not great poker players' game is when they find themselves with a hand with some immidiate value and a draw to go. One will rarely make BIG mistakes in these situations, but there is plenty of small ones I think.
lars
How well do you know your opponents? Are they the type who will call all the way since they have already put in one bet? If so, your cap on the flop is absolutely correct, because you are getting 5:1 on your money, and your chance of hitting your draw is better than that. this is even true if you are up against the nut flush draw.
Had the turn been a blank, I would not like your raise, as it tends to drive people out in a situation where you want to keep them in. With the king coming, I now like your raise. You don't know what the SB has, but it could be a hand that you can beat without hitting a straight or a flush. That being the case, you want to drive other people out as the pot is so large.
William
I agree with the cap on the flop. I don't agree with the raise on the turn though.
SB check re-raises the flop. You didn't mention your opinion of the SB but unless he is a maniac he's got AA,KK,QQ,JJ, or AhXh. There's a small chance he has AQ or even smaller K10.
You have no hand beat of his on the turn except AQ or AhXh. His check raise on the flop and lead bet on the turn in my experience screams a set. With 3 players yet to act I think you are in the lead here 5% of the time. I be interested to see what others think of the possibility you are in the lead on the turn.
If you are beat on the turn with a monster draw, why raise the limpers out? I think you maximized the flop with your hand but did the opposite on the turn. Just my opinion. Glad you hauled in a big one. Did SB show his hand?
Jamie Collins
Odds of your flush 2.1:1. Odds of flush with no pair on board at river is roughly 2.8:1 (not calc'd). So three callers is adequate if you've got the nut flush draw; otherwise you're best off not reraising.
An additional benefit of not capping: the button may do it with a flush draw. Then you are more likely to get a free card on the turn. If you cap it and check the turn, a middle position player who makes two pair will bet, whereas sometimes they will not if the final raise was behind them.
The SB had the AQ with the A of hearts.....he is a very aggressive player and tends to overplay hands...
In retrospect, I guess the turn raise, while aggressive and not terrible, wasn't the right move
Thanks everyone for your help in making me a better player.
Mike
This game goes every Wednesday night for about 12 hours on one of the riverboat casinos here in Iowa. I am looking for help in hand selection preflop and to a certain extent post flop play in a game like this. I play in other wild even hyper aggressive games and do just fine. Still, this game has me lost. Please help.
The game is played 12 handed and we average 9 players seeing each flop. It is a reasonably passive game with maybe 20 percent of the hands raised preflop. If these players have any part of the flop or a draw they are coming. When they flop three flush they think they have a flush draw. Raising preflop does not slow down the number of preflop callers one bit. In addition, there are several players who will not bet their hand..not even if they flop a set. The players really are the worst that I play against anywhere, yet, I have a very hard time beating this game. Any suggestions?
With 12 players in the game, you have to play really tight. AQo is probably a fold up front.
Suited hands go up A LOT in value.
Up front, I would play AA-TT,AKo,AKs,AQs,KQs. That would be it.
In the middle without a raise, I would play AA-TT,AKo,AQo,AKs,AQs,KQs,AJs. If 2 or 3 people have called, I would add 88,99,ATs. If everybody is in, I would add 55,66,77,Axs (which you would dump unless you hit very hard). With a raise I would resort back to the up front hands.
In late position without a raise, I would play any pair, AKo-AJo,KQo,Axs,KQs-KTs, suited connectors down to 56s, one gappers down to T8s. With a raise, I would resort back to the middle position hands except leave out Axs and AQo.
Once you hit a great draw, or a set play it hard. Put in as many bets as you can with a draw or a set on the flop. Slow down with a draw that doesnt get there on the turn, but continue to push your sets on the turn unless a scare card comes. With top pair your going to take some heat, but I wouldnt lay it down to easily.
It looks like you can see the flop cheaply most of the time and will have lots of opponents. So preflop you want to play hands that can make big hands against a large field. Ax suited is stronger than AQ offsuit here. 76 suited is much better than KJ offsuit. All pairs go up in value (but you need to flop sets with the smaller ones). Mediocre offsuit hands such as KT go way down in value. I would also think that 76 suited is only moderately better in back (with many callers) than 76 offsuit since flush over flush will be much more common.
Up front I would play all pairs and hands such as 87 suited. A would also play suited paints and limit my offsuit holdings to AK and maybe AQ. Ax suited is very playable here.
In back I would add Kx and Qx suited along with some smaller suited hands and a few offsuit connectors and one-gapers when I can get in for one bet with many opponents. Some weaker offsuit paints might be OK near the button for one bet as long as you play well post flop.
Regards,
Rick
Here's some tips.
Don't ever bluff. Ever. You got me? Not once.
Top pair is a crappy hand if that's all you've got by the river.
Position is extremely important in this game. I wouldn't say that AQo is probably a fold in this game UTG, I'd say it's definitely a fold.
What are you going to make with AQo? Top pair? Ha! You need to make a straight or two pair (which will only sometimes be good). You will only be able to profitably play AQo from late position.
Play ABSURDLY tight up front, fairly loose in back for one bet. If it's raised, get out without SUPREME cards. I would not call a raise with KJs for instance. Maybe with KQs but probably not.
You're only goal here is to make monster hands becuase they WILL get paid. I'm assuming you almost NEVER see a pot go down without a showdown.
natedogg
Top pair may be no bargain in this game, but I'll bet you top pair on the flop is the winning hand by the river a fair amount of the time. Not alot, but enough so that hands like AQo are definitely playable. You may not win as many hands with AQo-- and certainly won't win any of those nut-no-pair showdowns, but when you get four overcallers on the river after flopping an A you don't need to win many pots. And you're going to flop top pair *roughly* 30% of the time, which makes this a pretty fair hand; even in a game like this.
The trick to playing big offsuit connectors in a game like this, IMO, is calling on the flop and then raising on the turn IF the lead bettor is just to your right; in other words, taking special heed of the advice given my Herr Malmuth in the loose games section of HFAP.
Also, remember that when you do flop a pair you'll improve it twenty percent of the time, and top two or open trips with a huge kicker is a monster in any game.
BTW, just wanted to let you know that I enjoy your posts, Nate. I don't play much-- read, any-- no limit, but I like reading your thoughts on the game on the high limit forum.
Guy
Rick's post correctly outlined the hands to play.
In late position I'll frequently just call with A-Ko and J-J or worse. This allows me to limit the field if someone bets into a good flop for me.
Post flop I become much more passive with my top pair hands unless my position allows me to limit the field. I try to sit to the left of an aggressive player so I can raise to try and limit the field. Flush/Str8 draws I will play more aggressively if I can trap players in but forget about bluffing the turn. You will have to make a hand.
Forget about fancy plays. You will have to make the best hand. Forget about thin bets on the river. And don't get caught up in the size of the pot. Someone's flopped a hand when 9 players take the flop. Taking one off to try and make 2nd best is very frustrating.
Your advise on getting out on the flop sounds pretty good to me, but I'm definitely peeling if I've got, say, A5h and the flop comes 2h 5s 8c. I-- like you, it sounds-- have had a fair amount of experience in these games, and my impression of them is that a) top pair can actually hold up, if only because you've got a decent chance of improving it (20%, give or take) by the river, and b) if you pick your spots when you peel a turn these kinds of plays can be genuinely profitable.
Overall, though, I think top pair-- by which I mean at least a J with an overcard kicker-- is under rated in these kinds of games by many good players, although I'll be the first man to dump offsuit connectors like KJo, AJo etc. in early position. Note that I didn't say 'powerhouse', I just said under rated :)
i think the game sounds fun. what more could you ask for than eleven fish donating money. pre flop cards are very key in this game. big draws on multiway passive action. position is not as important because of the passiveness. there is one key thing to keep in mind. dont over bet mediocre hands.When I say that, i mean raising for free cards and raising top pair on the flop.there will be more money made when you hit your draws or improve your pairs. make em pay on monsters. especially when im not there.
By the way, Kory, where have you been?
Here are two scenarios that come up (with variations) a lot in the looser 10-20 games I usually play:
(1) Folded to you, you raise with KsQs in middle position. You get two cold callers and the blinds fold. Your opponents are loose but not psychotic. Flop comes: 3c9hQd. You bet and both players call. Turn is: As. What is the play? Assume you check, the next guy checks, and the last guy bets. What do you do? Variation: What if you are heads up on the turn (one caller on the flop)?
(2) One limper to you and you raise with red jacks. All others fold and limper calls. Flop comes Ks10s3c. Limper check raises. Now what? Variation: What if the board is K-x-x and the player is both loose and tricky?
Thanks for your input.
situation 1 - I would bet. Showing weakness when a scare card comes is just begging for your opponent to bet. If it was heads-up, I would check-call all the way, but 3 way I would be forced to bet. I would call when he bets. I might raise.
situation 2 - heads up, I call all the way.
This is a 10-20 hand on Paradise, I would welcome comments on the way I played the turn.
The game is quite loose passive although there are a couple of loose aggressive players in late position when I am early.
I am dealt AJo UTG I decide to call, mainly because the loose aggressive players could raise with a poorer hand.
Middle position (MP) calls everyone else folds to the BB who checks.
Flop JcKsAc
Button bets, I raise, MP 3 bets, button folds. I call. I am not sure what MP has but I feel that it is likely that I am ahead as there are many hands that he could be playing strongly that I beat. At this point I made the decision to check raise the turn, if a blank comes and check if another co-ordinated card arrives.
Turn 4d I check, MP bets, I raise... MP calls.
River Qc- probably the worst card I could hope to see.
What is the play here? I decide to check with a view to calling.
Result to follow.
I think you played the hand fine with the possible exception of calling UTG w/ AJo. I probably would have folded, but I see the rationale for a call. Your play on the river is definitely check-call.
Jason
Playing A-J can sometimes put you in tough positions. By check-raising the turn you find out that your not up against a made str8. I doubt that he would have bet the turn with a hand like 10-J/K-10 so the only hands that should hurt you are A-10 and A-Q. Given his 3 bet on the flop, I think his most likely holding is K-J. But this is also the only hand you beat. Would K-J call a river bet as there's now no hand he can beat? For this reason I play it safe and check.
I would not have gone for the check raise on the turn as many players will play a str8 draw with a pair this way. They will then check the turn and take the free card. What would you have done with your hand had he 3 bet you again?
As I said, I am not sure if my turn play was correct. I just didn't feel that check calling was correct. If he had checked behind me at least I would have known that he was on a draw. Then I've got to wait to see what the river brings. I think I have to pay him off if a scare card comes as he would probably bet without having improved.
If I had bet the turn and he had raised, I still wouldn't really know where I was.
I did feel that it was very likely that he would continue to bet. If he 3 bets, I know he's got a str8, but I think that I have just got the value to call to see the river (assuming he pays me off if I fill up).
God, that is a horrible card.
Like you, I'd probably check. But I'm not sure I'd call if he bet. It's got to look just as scary to him as it does to you, and you already check-raised him once, which usually slows 'em down when they're thinking of making a play.
In short, I can't think of many hands he could have that you can beat. Maybe A9s, or a goofy two pair--- but would he have put in this much action with something like KJs? Or a KJo that didn't have a club?
It's a tough spot, but I think you have to give strong consideration to folding. If the pot were 5 or 6 BB's bigger, though, that may change things.
He checked the river and the hand history showed that he had KJo.
Thanks very much for your comments
In a good 15/30 holdem game I'm in the big blind with A2 offsuit. A loose weak player with beginner tells limps in the middle, an average player limps in the cutoff seat, and a somewhat loose but tricky and aggressive player limps on the button. The small blind folds.
The flop comes A-A-J rainbow. Although I normally like to bet trips out of the blind, that doesn't include trip aces since so many play ace anything and you don't get action when you are ahead but will when you are behind. Since I am either way ahead or way behind, I check to see what happens.
All fold to the aggressive button (AB) who naturally bets. I call rather than checkraise with the two weak players behind. The first player looks at the board with genuine concern but calls. He probably does not have the ace but could have almost anything else. The other player makes what appears to be a reluctant call. He could have an inside straight draw, a jack he was afraid to bet, or an underpair. (Note that an average player in Los Angeles does not need proper odds to draw to inside straights and underpairs.)
I can't be sure AB does not have an ace. In this spot AB would call pre flop with Ax suited, perhaps A9 or AT offsuit, and raise with better offsuit aces. AB would raise with A8 suited and better. On the flop AB would tend to bet all pairs, all jacks, and all inside draws to a straight (e.g., QT, KT). AB might also make some pure bluffs given the flop was checked and the board scary.
On the turn comes a suited five. The board now reads A-J-J-5 with a two flush. I check again. Both other players check unenthusiastically (not feigned). AB bets again. Since I'm pretty sure the other players do not have an ace I just call again. The early limper folds and the cutoff limper almost folds but then decides to call (I'm pretty sure this is not an act).
The river comes an offsuit 8 or something similar. I check, the cutoff checks (already showing his missed hand to his neighbor), AB bets with no tell, and I call. The cutoff folds as expected.
Question: Is my passive play viable and correct here? I will post the results and more about why I posted this rather mundane hand tonight or tomorrow.
Regards,
Rick
Since the pot is not very big, I like your play on the turn and the river. On the turn, any hand besides Ax, JJ, and 55 are making a mistake by calling the button's bet. On the river, your likely to get an overcall so your call is correct.
The only question is the flop. By not raising, your giving correct implied odds to anbody with an inside straight draw. I dont like that, but since you got at least one and maybe both of them to overcall on the turn when they may not have had you raised the flop, then I can't fault this.
Had the pot been a little bigger I would advocate playing this hand much faster.
Joe,
I agree that I don't want to give a free card to QT or KT, but I figured this flop would be bet be someone (especially the button) at least 80% of the time.
Regards,
Rick
I would probably bet here, hoping that one of the bad players has a J. If they do, they'll probably just call you all the way, and if they raise on the turn you can probably muck. If the AB calls, or raises, I would probably get a litte leery and check/ call all the way.
The thing is, the AB could raise and keep betting with something like 66, which is fine. The worst case scenerio, of course, is that someone else has an A, but the presence of the J on board makes it that much more likely you'll get paid off all the way if you fly bet the flop. And, of course, like Joe said you'd like to keep everyone from getting free shots and the much-despised gutter draw (to which, I might add, I have probably lost more money to than all other draws combined). If the flop were AA6 the situation might be different.
Of course, if the other players are too tricky (that is, if they raised the turn you couldn't muck with confidence), then you're probably stuck checking and calling. But, since only one player seems particularly crafty, then I'd just bet out.
But the key here, I think, is the presence of the J on board and the fact that the two players inbetween you and the AB are bad. When you figure in the fact that a J could pay you off, plus the fact that if you bet and get one caller the AB really can't start making plays (that is, he probably can't raise unless he's got the goods), I imagine I'd let 'er rip.
GD,
Good post. I agree that the jack on board (compared to a middle card) probably makes betting a slightly better play than checking and calling.
Regards,
Rick
You're going to the river (unless the button meets resistance). Check-raising the flop just kills your action if you're ahead and costs you one more small bet if you're behind.
Matt,
I assume you are saying if I call and then there are overcalls on the flop I check again on the turn. If the button bets the turn, I call and fold to a checkraise by either of the limpers. At this point I would either be drawing dead or to half the pot.
Regards,
Rick
RN: "On the turn comes a suited five. The board now reads A-J-J-5 with a two flush."
Minor typo, but everyone understands.
You should checkraise the flop cutting off the overcalls and stopping the button who might be bluffing. If it turns out he has another ace, oh well, thems the breaks. You can't let the limpers call with a possible gutshot having 6.5-1 with a pair of aces on board. They have the right odds to call (not that odds should matter, go with the feel of it), given the chance of them drawing dead or being outdrawn are so low.
Oh, and you should fold the river, you are probably beat, forget about pot odds. The board could play but whats the chance of that? Or he could be bluffing...but don't live your life on a bluff.
Ms. Information
Ms. Information,
Sorry about the typo. If I just call the flop, are possible inside straight draws held by the limpers getting correct odds to call? It seems they are not, given that there are only six or seven small bets in on about an 11 to 1 shot. Let's sat AB is bluffing or betting a jack or worse. If so, I would want QT or KT to call. Also, an ace has redraws even if they hit on the turn.
Against a tight and cautious opponent on the button, folding the river may be right. But AB is very alert and probably saw the same tells I did on the river (both limpers seemed to miss whatever they were going for). AB is capable of value betting a good jack or bluffing a busted straight draw. AB could also bet an ace-baby where the board would play. I thought the call was OK.
Regards,
Rick
I play it the same except the turn. I would lead out here blocking what could be a free card if the button decides to now check. The only problem would come about if the button raised.
Winger,
That's a big problem. If I check the turn and AB on the button now checks a jack behind me, then AB is drawing dead and may now be more likely to call a river bet. If AB on the button raises on the turn then I am almost always against an ace or a full. But the button might raise a weak ace with the intention of checking the river. Some of those weak aces I can at least tie, especially since AB on the button will play all suited aces and would have raised pre flop with AJ offsuit or better and A8 suited or better (in my estimation). In fact, given the weakness of the limpers, AB might raise with any half decent ace before the flop.
Regards,
Rick
After the button bets again on the river, I would assume I am beat. He knows you have an ace and does not care. I am guessing he had made a full house. Am I correct?
I believe my play was debatable but not clearly wrong. AB had a pair of fives and filled up on the turn. A friend who has been successfully playing mid-limit for years thought I should have led the flop or check raised when AB bet. I think he was letting results influence his opinion.
Regards,
Rick
Does your friend think that betting out or check raising would have made any difference? Do you?
Brett,
After hearing the results he said I should have bet or checkraised. And he would probably bet as that is his style (more of a pound, pound, pound no matter what). But I still think it is close when presented with the decision in the absence of knowing the results. BTW, the aggressive button was my Hero.
Regards,
Rick
PS You really enjoy it when she tortures me don't you.
Of course I enjoy the torture, but the point is that it doesn't matter if you bet out or check raise, AB is still going to peel one and beat you.
Brett,
She claims that she would correctly fold 5-5 if I bet out into that board. But if I checkraised and there were two cold callers I think she might take one off getting about 11 to 1 or so on her 22.5 to 1 shot. She denies this but I sometimes see her make these loose calls on the flop with position, which may be only a fraction of a bet mistake since she should make extra bets if she hits. Since she hasn't ever been subject to the agony of a redraw and has made more than her fair share of longshots, I'll have to wait a bit before attempting to tighter her up here.
Regards,
Rick
I'm only posting this hand because it's one of the strangest I've played in quite some time, and because I'm not real sure I played it right.
The game: a typical 10-20 game at the Soaring Eagle casino a couple weeks ago. I've got KK in the BB. two callers, the SB-- whom I've never played against, but who seems fairly sane and a bit on the tight side, although he tends to get married to his big hands (he ran me down for a tie about for rounds previous, when I had JTo, the flop came 8h 9h Qs, and he stuck around-- with some fairly heavy action-- to catch a T to go with his AJc), raises. I three bet with Kh Kc, two callers call, and the SB caps it.
Flop: Ah Qs Td. Huh, I say. The SB checks, I check, and the other player checks. Turn: 5s. Again the SB checks, I check, and the other player checks. River: 5d. SB bets.
What do you do? Or, perhaps, what would you have done differently?
Cmon. You can't fold on the end. But you should have bet on fourth st.
What hand would you put the SB on when he checks 4th? Or wouldn't you?
And remember, I said it was weird. I didn't say it was played well.
He has pocket AA.
Split pot?
I tend to be more aggressive. I would have bet the flop. If for whatever reason I checked the flop, defiantly bet the turn. Unless the blind is a very rare bird, he is betting with almost anything, including no pair, on the river in an attempt to pick up the money just sitting out there in the middle since no one else seems to want it.
nt
Bet the flop, check the turn and call the river.
If he check raises the flop, take one off for the str8 draw.
If I didn't have the str8 draw I would check the flop and bet the turn. It takes a special kind of dummy to check a set twice into this flop.
Here's a hand from a "student" with whom I've been exchanging info. I put "student" in quotes because he's actually more experienced than I and has better "poker sense" than I do, and is able to make a lot of laydowns, value bets/raises that I can't make. This hand has been bothering me because I tend to have a lot of trouble analyzing 3-way pots. Multiway is fine and heads up is fine, but 3-way always gives me problems.
Preflop: Our hero holds JhJd 3 off the button.
A loose player limps UTG, an unknown player limps immediately after. A poor, over-aggressive player raises (he has maniacal tendencies before the flop, and will raise and cap with hands as weak as 44, A5s, QT, etc, and will also play very aggressively on later streets from time to time), hero 3-bets. Blinds fold, limpers call, loose-aggressive caps it. (This guy often caps it after having raised preflop, so capping it doesn't really mean anything.)
Flop: 7c6d2d. Limpers check, loose-aggressive bets, hero raises, one limper folds, the unknown limper calls 2 cold, loose-aggressive re-raises, hero caps, limper calls 2 cold again.
Turn Tc, board 7c6d2d/Tc. Limper checks, loose-aggressive bets, hero raises, limper calls 2 cold again, loose-aggressive re-raises, hero and limper call.
River Ad, board 7c6d2d/Tc/Ad. Limper checks, loose-aggressive bets, hero folds, limper calls.
Comments on the river fold?
-Sean
Don Heftolo,
Somber Brotherhood
http://www.desetka.si/somber
My God man! You didn't want to slow down at all?! I know he is loose-agg., but does that mean that he is incapable of having a good hand (i.e. QQ, KK, or AA)? And then to lay down on the river after all of that action? I only like your play before the flop. Everything else from capping on the flop to your river play was not what I would have done.
Jason
Sorry, I just realized that a friend of yours played this hand, not you. Apply all my comments to him.
Sorry, Jason
It always amazes me when I see players cap round after round, throw in 7-8 bets without thinking about it in a matter of seconds, and then suddenly on the river they need to think about their final bet for a minute to see if they can save one.
I think he way overplayed his Jacks and lost much more money than was needed. If he is going to muck him he should have done it earlier.
Sean,
There is little doubt that Hero put the remaining limper on a hand such as a flush (completed on the river) or another hand that he was content to let the loose-aggressive player bet for him. The loose-aggressive player could actually have something too.
The problem is that when loose-aggressive makes his last river bet, there are about 25 big bets in the pot. Maybe your friend was right to fold (I assume he did and was in fact beaten), but will he be right 25 out of 26 times? Even if it is right to fold 35 out of 36 times, he is only making a small mistake.
The limper yet to act could hold the flush, a set or a bigger pair. I think the straight would have capped the turn. OTOH, he could have been hanging on with a smaller pair. The pot was big enough to allow a typical unknown player who probably chases too much to play a hand such as 44 or 88 in this fashion.
However, the limper might have been playing two pair. When the ace comes on the river, maybe the limper could lay down such a hand to a raise (fearing top set). The raise only costs one big bet since you would have to be up against the nuts to get reraised. So maybe that is the play, even though I doubt results would vindicate it this time.
Regards,
Rick
I don't like that fold at all. Calling or raising would be far better. With unknown opponents, you can't be 96% sure you are beat, which is what you need to fold here.
William
I think the laydown was horrible considering the amount of money in the pot.
Pre-Flop - Decent play if your friend's read on him is correct. Flop - The raise was fine, the re-raise was too agressive. Turn - Too agressive, check and call River - Too many bets in the pot to check and fold, i would check and call.
Much too agressive, two huge mistakes were made, over-agression and folding with 25-26 big bets in the pot. Sheesh you only have to win 4% of the time or more to be correct to call that many bets in the pot.
If the fold is out of fear that the limper might raise behind, well it wasn't such a great read was it. This seems like a setup for someone had A10 and someone had a flush draw -- which is exactly what hero had them on... This seems a bit goofy. Capping the flop and raising the turn 3-way (I can see either but not both), pressing a small edge that is premised entirely on a perfect read. Anyway, I don't like the river fold.
I agree with you all that this is a horrible fold. I could see folding to 2 bets cold, or maybe folding if you call and the limper check-raises, but folding to a single bet on the river from a lunatic is just ridiculous. (Even worse, because the limper is an unknown entity, you have no idea what he's calling all those raises with.) As it turned out, the lunatic had A3c which he capped with before the flop, jammed on the flop with a backdoor flush draw and overcard, and jammed on the turn with a nut flush draw and an overcard. The limper had K7h, which goes to show that you can't necessarily put someone who cold calls a bunch of bets on a hand.
Of course, I'm having a hard time convincing my friend that the laydown was so awful because he was beaten on that specific hand. Maybe I need to explain to him about waitresses, fur coats, and shrimp cocktails.
I'm surprised you guys are critical of the play prior to the river, though. Remember the guy driving the betting was a maniac. I might not have made it clear exactly how loose and aggressive this guy is, but I had been in the game earlier and he would routinely raise with something like T8s before the flop, cap it, and jam away with any top pair on the flop (even T8s on an 8 high flop versus preflop strength), any flush draw, etc, even when other people were showing strength. Perhaps more importantly, this guy was generally fairly clueless--some maniacs actually know what they're doing to some extent. Even though they're way overaggressive, at least they understand position and know how people might react to their bets and raises, but this guy didn't, for example, he'd flop a crappy draw and bet right into a preflop raiser, even though the preflop raiser was almost guaranteed to raise and knock people out.
Sure, maniacs get dealt big hands too, but when someone's range of hands is so wide, the chances of running into an overpair, a set, or a weird two pair are slim enough that you can put in more raises than might otherwise be warranted. It doesn't require a "perfect" read as someone else suggested, because there are tons of hands in his range that the hero is beating. I would expect him to cap the flop and lead on the turn with any flush draw and any top pair, for example, which is why I think the turn raise is completely warranted. The presence of the third party makes it a bit dicey, but you generally don't need to fear cold callers unless you know they're tight.
I say this fairly often, but I believe the optimal strategy against an overagressive player is to be extra aggressive yourself, and you can put in more bets than would otherwise be warranted. Basically the relative value of your hands goes up because the maniac is likely to have very little.
-Sean
Well, wacky hand. Hero has 2 people drawing out not 1, big difference. The edge is small and its premised on goofiness. While the range of bad hands that the maniac would play this way may be enormous -- the range of holdings which have the hero way behind or slightly ahead is enormous too. Sometimes playing the flop a little easier and then raising the turn can thin the field -- which seems like the best reason for raising the turn, as opposed to squeezing more value out of the maniac who you've got a hunch you're ahead of.
Sorry for double follow-up, but I think I might have the best argument for the river call. If the maniac is so likely to jam pre-flop, flop, & turn with nothing, wouldn't they at least occasionally carry it through to the river? Like say 1 in 25 or so?
Right, that's why you should call on the river. It was really rare that he'd have absolutely nothing, he seemed to always have some sort of draw or a made hand (albeit some of them were very weak), but there are still tons of possibilities where he could be betting the river with a hand you can beat.
The idea of waiting until the turn to raise has merit sometimes, but I don't know if a semi-coordinated board like that is one I want to do it it. God forbid someone with K8s decides to take a card off for 1 bet but would fold for 2, and a K comes on the turn. A lot of loose players won't even fold a weakish hand for 2 cold on the turn anyway, like 5 outers that you really want out of the pot.
-Sean
I haven't read the other posts so I may repeat something that someone else has already said. But you are describing a maniac and the pot has gotten pretty big. I usually pay off in these spots. You only need to be right every now and then for the river call to be correct.
The more interesting part of the hand is the call on fourth street after it goes to three bets. Against a sane opponent you almost have to be beat, so if our hero thought it was right to make this call he should still call on the river.
One other point. Because the ace might beat him by hitting the third player's hand, it might actually be right to raise on the river and stop an overcall. This is especially true if there is now any chance you can get the (maniac) bettor to throw away a better hand.
Paul3,
I don't go all in but here is a spot where I would in your situation. The original raiser did not cap so he may not be much stronger than you, or could have something like TT. By going all in, you have two shots at a king or a queen and can't be pushed off the hand.
PB&J isn't that bad but I hope you intended to rebuy and take your remaining free hands in this spot.
Regards,
Rick
by raising the turn what was your intention? To check it down on the river or to bet it out believing you have the better hand. Against decent players i might check it down, against a fish I might...might bet it out depending on how tight he plays. He may very well hold a 10 with a beter kicker, a queen, or a hand worse than yours. i might just play it weak and check it down, but it really depends on the player.
I would not have tried to steal with this piece of garbage. I think in the long run this is a losing play. I would fold and wait for a better opportunity.
I don't mind your check on the flop. I would generally bet in this situation but if you think the BB will raise you then checking is fine. Your raise on the turn is fine as well. Obviouslt if he has a Q he will call but maybe he was betting with overcards and will fold right now. I would check the river and cross my fingers.
Medium Stakes Hold'em
March 2001 Digest is provided by Two Plus Two Publishing and ConJelCo