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There is no question that a separate forum for internet poker is a good idea. There is much subject matter pertaining to online poker, which if discussed in a productive way, should prove useful to the majority of online players of the 2+2 population.
Unfortunately, this forum has become nothing more than a vast wasteland of half-baked consiracy theories and unfounded accusations against online poker. It is a rare day when I log onto this particular forum and find any worthy of productive threads. There have been some to be sure. But they are lost amongst the garbage that permeates this forum.
I can't speak for others, but I vote for either deleting altogether, or at least a stricter moderating of the internet forum, in order to make it conform with 2+2's standards for its other forums.
= Raider
Raider, I agree with you for the most part. I just happen to think a lot of the gibberish you get is because internet poker is still in its infancy. In a way we don't know much about the legitimacy of the online poker rooms. One of two things have to happen for I-poker to gain legitimacy: either there has to be some sort of regulation of the industry, or somebody reputable has to come out with a book called "Making a living playing internet poker". I believe either of these things (or both of them together preferably) will make all the whining posts about cheating stop. Until then, I wouldn't worry about all the wackos, post away with internet hand questions, and I'm sure a good many people on here will try to help you out with the analysis.
Obviously we have noticed the strange posts as well. We just feel that is the nature of Internet poker at the moment and hope that in time it will shake out.
It will shake out in your dreams. How many suckers have to lose all their money from these organized crime activities before your company makes a stand? Oh, you already have made a stand. You defend anonymous crooked activity on a regular basis. Odds are good you are a slent partner. I guess we will never know, will we? Hopefully, the government will one day shut down these off shore rackets. Maybe they can shake out fraudulent gaming supporters, too.The public can only hope.
Yep. The government that brings us the Lottery will be sure to protect innocent folks from throwing away their money at all costs.
Frankie, I challenge you to present us with some facts to support your contention that online poker is run by the organized crime or is otherwise crooked.
Also, in my opinion, this forum is the perfect place to discuss this topic. One of the key points made by S/M in their writings is that game selection is often of paramount consideration. Whether or not a game is rigged certainly relates to that consideration.
What's the matter, frankie? Is the internet cutting into some of your business?
Sounds like Frankie's "FAMILY" is at war with the "FAMILY" who runs Costa Rican activities ;)
Could frankie be matt??
44,000 customers. Indeed, they make a decent amount of money just on the interest on the accounts they hold. Assuming an average balance of 500, the interest would equate to over a million bucks a year.
However, they are going to get the bulk of this regardless of how long it takes them to pay people as everybody carries a balance. And it pales in comparison to their ordinary income from the rake. Las night they had 1520 paying players (at least 152 tables) going at once.
Lets assume conservatively that they are dropping an average of a buck per hand across all limits (its probably closer to $2 or $3) and that they average only 50 tables across each 24 hour day.
That would be 24 hours * 75 hands/hour * $1/hand * 50 tables * 365 days/year = $33 million per year.
Wished I'd thought of it. And if I did, I certainly wouldn't be stupid enough to kill the golden goose by dealing too many quads, making good players lose, putting up with collusion, pissing off customers by not paying them in a timely fashion, etc.
But maybe they don't like money as much as I do.
I never accused PP of cheating I have just noted the large amount of quads showing up in the tournaments.
Maybe the dealers explanination (about the dealers seperating pairs and sets prior to shuffel is the reason one doesn't see them in live games much.
I did think it was worth mention as in a live game I almost never consider an opponent having quads but on PP it is a real possibility.
Here is a real poker example, complete with quads, suckouts, bad playing online, and everything everyone wants, hehe:
I am playing Low Limit Paradise, lots of terrible players there lately, I am doing very well. I am at an especially bad (good) table, 6-7 taking flops, playing horrible cards, etc.
I am in middle position, I look down to see QQ. I raise, I get about 5 callers. Flop comes QT4 all spades. UTG bets, I raise, someone reraises, we get three other callers. Turn is a blank, UTG bets again. I figure there are so many of em, someone has 72spades probably, I will lose, ok, I cannot give it up...I call. Still 5 players. I pray for a paired river, I get my prayers, it is the case Q....what a day! UTG still bets, I raise, 1 other caller --- can you believe it? I win a monster. OK: UTG shows 72spades. (What a guess) I laughed my head off, what is he calling one bet and then calling my raise with 72s? He felt oh my, what a bad beat. I felt, what a loser. Playing 72s for 2 bets. And the others, what were they looking for? They were all likely drawing dead....
So what's the moral of this story: Lots of bad players there, especially at low stakes. But I saw a guy playing 15-30 and 20-40 last night he was so terrible, he played every hand, raised with garbage, boy was his chimney cleaned fast...
...you can win a lot here with solid play, nothing fancy. There are many people who will call to the river when you have them beat; and who will bluff with very poor fishy bluffs. My quads: I got lucky. Even I get lucky sometimes Jim. But I won a very big pot too with 88 when A7x flopped, and I knew that this guy -- who was terrible and bluffed everything -- had a 7 only, I JUST KNEW IT, and he bluffed a weak A out (before me) and I took down a beauty, and it was easy. It is harder to read sometimes who is good vs someone who isn't than reallife, but practice makes perfect.
Quads rule.
Mark
Way to go PB!
Actually with the set of Q's you are drawing very live you have 7 outs on the turn and 10 on the river - don't need much of a pot to justify playing this one and you never know when some magoo is playing a singleton A or K of the suit strongly.
Good show.
The FBI has clearly documented what? That some organized crime was involved in a single online gaming site? Even if this is true, I still don't see this as proof that Paradise is run by the mafia? When you come up with proof that Paradise or any other online poker parlor is run by the mafia, please step up and show it to us. Until then, you are just blowing a lot of hot air.
they have documented that the MAJORITY of internet gaming is run by organized crime. Have a nice day. You don't care. That is clear. You would sell your mother as a street hooker to make a quick crooked buck.
Frankie,
Since the FBI has "documented" this fact, perhaps you could tell us where they have documented it.
Also, even if you are right, which I highly doubt to be the case, it doesn't necessarily follow that a game run by criminals is a crooked game. Mob-run bookies keep their promises and pay out to winners. I think there probably were some winners in Vegas before the corporations got there.
Whoever is running the sites can make a boatload of money with a straight game, and without cheating anybody. Even the mob is subject to the whimsy of the market. If they are screwing people via internet poker, I would people to start spending their money elsewhere.
First I would like to say that I post my hand analysis questions under the Hold'em section because they are taken seriously there (usually).
Ok when playing at 2 tables at the same time how do you calculate variance.
I can't afford to play at a 2-4 table. I think I can afford to play at 2 .50-$1 tables though.
Advantages: Earning more per hour (or losing more per hour) I can get out of one game if there is a maniac or if the game is tight-aggressive, and still be in the other game.
Disadvantages: Harder to watch all the action, then to put people on hands. Variance.
Any other things I missed?
I believe that the variance should be on the advantage side. Supposing that you play as well at two tables at the same time as you would have done at one table(?), the variance should be lower at two $0.5-$1 tables than at one $1-$2 table (if you disregard the fact that $1-$2 tables are missing at Paradise). Correct me if I'm wrong.
Exactly.
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
Ljubljana, Slovenia
http://www.fekali.com/angelina
Sunday night playing at the Paradise Poker Casino ;)
Same night my Ace High flush gets beat by a straight flush which I fail to believe is even possible ;)
Playing .50-$1 ended $150 up after 8 hrs of play.
Learning Izmets Ramming and Jamming when you have lots of calling stations. Variance is a concern. Action is great though. Pots can get ridiculous.
Lots of loose-passive fish out the yang, spent majority of my time avoiding maniacs. Oh and counting my chips ;)
Now lets see if I can win during the week ;)
If you want advice on how to play a hand, go post it in another forum. If you want to debate the legitimacy or lack there of it, there you have found the right spot. For people like Raider, who is groveling for separate forums, if you don't like this one, don't come and use another one.
Wow, JV, you go man! Take charge with that illin' grammar of yours and tell us non-conspiracy theorists where to go with all our trifling legitimate poker hand questions. I had no idea that Sklansky and Malmuth had appointed you as their spokesperson for this forum. What other powers do you have on here? Was it your decision to call in the mafia specialists? What about the computer scientists (all with PhDs in CompSci from Cal Tech I am sure) to warn us about the vast number of bots operating in the I-poker scene? I like what you've done with the place! Don't worry I'll be coming to this place frequently. Who needs boring hand analyses when you can debate the presence of the Gambino crime family on PP's board of trustees?
I disagree JV. The "legitamacy" debate is going nowhere. We might as well argue abortion, people are probably more likely to change their minds.
If someone would post something concrete that would be one thing. The discussion you seem to favor is going nowhere and therefore useless.
It would be fine with me if 2+2 decided to split the internet forum into "Internet Poker - General" and "Internet Poker - Consipiracy"
Sure, there is always the "Just don't read it!" argument, but there are also people who would like see the forum become useful and interesting, rather than abandon it.
I have come to the conclusion in my limited experience that internet poker and brick and mortar poker are moderately different. The speed, use of hand histories,lack of physical tells, etc. I want people's opinions on those subjects. I don't care who has a bounty out on paradise's servers or how much money is being sucked out of us by Elvis, or whomever is Big Brother today.
If you think Paradise is crooked, don't play there. If you believe internet poker in general is rigged, throw away your modem and get one of those nice felt poker tables. You know, the ones with the cupholders? They're on sale at Ames.
.
Hetron, why do you always scrutinize the grammar of each post? I write my posts quickly trying to get my idea across. I could care less if I forget an apostrophe. If you are trying to imply you are more intelligent than me, you aren't.........and we can match crudentials if you need proof.
You didn't forget an apostrophe. You forgot an entire word in your title. Anyways,I wasn't trying to call you unintelligent, just arrogant for assuming that you had the authority to tell people to go elsewhere if they want to post their internet hands for analysis. But out of curiosity, what exactly are your "crudentials"?
Maybe you guys are right. I thought there may have been other things which separate internet from live poker such as the vastly larger game selections, the ability to quickly change games, sites which offer better games, placing more emphasis on different observation skills due to not being able to really see or know your opponents, etc. NOT just, Post There's too many quads, Response Prove it! Post There's too many straight flushes, Response Prove it! etc.
For those who think this is the most constructive and useful way to spend their thinking time away from the game, it's little wonder why they can't seem to figure out why they're losing...
Ouch! What was that? It must've been the door hitting me. Later.....
OK, to honor Raider's suggestion, I'll name a couple aspects of online poker that I think provides an advantage over live games.
At Paradise, you can compare certain measurements of games characteristics such as the average size of the pot. I'm inclined to think the larger the pot size, the better the game, all other things being equal such as number of players obviously. I think a bigger pot size means looser play and therefore indicates an easier game. Same thing for number of players seeing the flop.
Another thing online poker provides is a lot of short handed games. I do well in short handed but it is almost impossible find one in a real poker room because the floor always breaks them up by combining short games into full tables.
The players/flop stat is a much better indicator than pot size when it comes to gauging the softness of a game.
I agree. Players/flop or players/4th card is a good parameter but suffers the huge turn-over at the tables. In my opinion, advantages of online poker are: If you observe for a long time the players (and write their charateristics in a note book)you'll know very well the opposition (but on-line no way to use the tips of the very good book of MIke CAro "Book of tells"). Usually, the player use his own cards with a very rapid view of the opponents boards. In internet poker, it's more easy to go in tilt (you cannot complain showing your losing good starting hand without arriving (and calling) the river. Then a very disciplinated player (not me :-) ) has a great advantage over the opposition in tilt. You can wait your better hands since you don't have to come back (by car, by bus, etc) and you have more time to spend at the table. You can leave the seat whenever you want even after 1 or 2 good hands (almost nobody will remember your name) While playing, You can drink, smoke, kiss everything or everyone. Nobody can throw the cards in your face after giving a bad beat to someone! (It's better to click the Silent option on the menu--lol) However, I think IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR AN AVERAGE PLAYER LOSING AT LOWER LIMITS (2-4 7-stud and 3-6 hold'em). If you have comments about winnings concepts on online poker I'm very happy to read them! Later, Marco
However, I think IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR AN AVERAGE PLAYER LOSING AT LOWER LIMITS (2-4 7-stud and 3-6 hold'em).
What does marco mean by this sentence?
I think at lower limits the are too many fishes Marco
it means,if........... a) you lose playing 2/4,
then you are not an average player b) you lose playing 2/4 or 3/6
then you are a bad player
sorry, bitchass
I think it takes great skill to consistently beat HE at any level. Average players by definition are losing players (only the top 5% earn money). Over the long run a good player in a typical low-limit game on-line should be pleased to break about even. spitball
why do you make the statement about "low-limit." Do you think its easier to earn money in the higher limits online?
FC
no
Anyone know why?
Maybe they are fixing their quad producing "random" dealer.
Just kidding :-)
They are fixing the server.
Fixing the server? What it just up and broke?
Should have bought the 4 hr service contract ;)
They forgot to buy hamster food.
Someone at Paradise realized they make 1/3 the money on the tournaments as they due on the normal games so they are truly not testing the server, but rather the effect on their play by making them farther apart. How much play would they lose by not having them but twice a week? I emailed them the first day and the staff said, "We took them down just for tonight for some testing about traffic and they will be back tomorrow." All of a sudden its, "server problems." RAKE RAKE RAKE RAKE RAKE RAKE TAKE RAKE
About 8 months ago I lost this hand (I lost with quads too but this is another matter...) I'm in tilt so I want to throw my last $200 in a $20-$40 hold'em table. The first (I say FIRST) hand I dealt I'm obvious in the BB. I have A-A (!). The UTG raise (well I thought...), the player behind him ( we call him P.1) reraise, all other players fold. I cap the bet and I get the 2 callers. Flop is: A-4-K rainbow. I say: good, no open-end draws, no 4 flushes. I check, UTG bets, P1 raises, I reraise, call, call. The turn is a 8 (suited with the K). I bet, UTG raises, P1 reraises, I'm all-in (and I say "Damn" I have no more chips) UTG caps, p1 calls. River is a 6 off. Board is: A-4-K-8-6. UTG bets, P1 raises, UTG calls. Showdown: My set of Aces, UTG has K-J off and p1 (the winner) has 5-7 suited for a straight. Questions: 1) How is possible to call several bets in a 20-40 game with 5-7 suited pre-flop and, especially on the flop (with nothing) and on the turn (with a stupid gut straight draw)?. 2) How can a player (yeah superaggressive what you want) playing and raising in that hand with a pair of Kings and a mediocre kicker after my pre-flop capping? Secrets, maybe (but I really think so) I'm a very poor player. Comments, suggestions, hands you have suffered in such this way are very appreciated
MANIAC - that's what their called - you got a bad beat here it hurts specially when you played thh hand correctly.
Hell it's the game we choose to play and bad beats are a big part of it. If there were not any bad beats there wouldn't be any fish.
that's a tough beat........I handle the tilting by slamming my fist against the desk and yelling "Pisser, pisser, pisser, I can't beat these pissers!"
Yeah but I have broken a closet door and my desk drawer (it is an antique my wife loves) has come apart from banging my head on it.
:-(
winning,at ring games and tornaments-not a big winner but getting crushed heads up.i play less hands,this is i fold instead of call when im the button much more then my opponents.i defend my blinds less also.therefore preflop loosness isnt my problem.on the flop often the best hand isking high or ace high. playerds seem to raise more on the turn.cant really give much information of what im doing wrong except you usually have to show.if you raise representing the cards on board such as flop is j-k-4 player bets,yu raise after raising before the flop,perhaps with a-10 the other player calls always with 4-8 all the way.ant advice is appreciated.also it seems agression is winning the heads up matches ive watched
The last your phrase is the key of all. Obvious in a heads-up confontation the aggressiveness has primary importance. If you played hold'em heads-up (on-line) you can always note, like full tables, that very few times you hit the flop (even partially). Suppose you start with A-K suited and raise on the button. A player can call another bet from the BB with a hand such 8-4 suited (or even worst I saw...). If the flop comes Q-4-6 do you think is it easy to push out that player from the pot? The majority of the times the player who bets on the flop will win the pot. I observed a long time a player who plays in Paradise heads-up at $10-20. He puts aggressiveness in almost every hand he plays (he plays about 7/10 of the hands he is in on the button). It's unbelievable but he wins $200 (average) a day. Almost every time he raises pre-flop, he bets and raises on the flop or on the turn; and I asking myself? But has he hit every time the flop? I played hours and hours at 5 card stud and when I feared a player, it was because he played the same way I described about the Paradise player. Later, Marco
Is aggression.
Aggression is more important than the cards.
So be betting/raising/folding rather than checking and calling.
I think this is wrong as general advice. If you are playing against a calling station type, Betting and raising when the flop misses you can be expensive when instead you could take free cards or show doen bare Aces for free.
Actually, heads-up is the most opponent-dependant poker of all, so it is ridiculous to universally declare the "best advice", unless of course that best advice is to find weaker opponents.
IMO, the rake on PP for heads-up is unbeatable unless you are playing against very weak-tight opponents.
I keep hearing this. I don't understand how it is so bad.
It is 2.5% or LESS!!!
If pot is under $20 then you pay nothing. If pot is between $20-$40 you pay between 1.28% and 2.5% Above $40 the pot is increasingly less (percentage wise.) At $100 pot the rake is 1%
If you're playing $2-$4 how many pots ar you ever raked?
Worst Case Scenario: If you're playing $20-$40 and the pot is $40 at the flop. (No flop No drop) If someone folds you are dropping $1 from your $40 win.
If someone bets the flop and it is called, $80 in pot, bet on the turn $160, River $240.
you would pay $1 in rake from a $240 pot, .42%.
What am I missing about the terribly unfair rake?
The problem isn't so much that the rake is high, it's that the hands per hour is so high. On Paradise headsup you could easily play over 100 hands in an hour, at $1 a hand that gets expensive fast. even at .50 cents a hand that would be $50 an hour.
I think James was looking for a strategy.
And an aggressive strategy is "my" best advice in heads up play. You won't find me giving many free cards to anyone.
There are many players on paradise and planet from Las Vegas and Henderson. I wonder why they prefer playing online rather than at the Bellagio or Mirage is the competition softer online. Or can it be these players cannot handle the competition in casinos? If I lived in Vegas I would prefer to play at the casinos than online unfortunately my only option is online.
maybe these guys are just at home, and are playing for a short time, like an hour or so.
Any good player knows that 1st criteria is the best game. Not where you have the nice facade, pretty waitresses and very though competition. Playing in Vegas Casinoes is no picknick. If you play 5-10 the games online are better. That's why the Vegas boys are online, hell maybe there are some colluders (I am pretty sure the weasels are on a mobile sometimes.) Why would not you ? These could be the pro wanna-bees who realized there is no way they will make a livin playing live poker in Vegas. It's business no games. I must say I don't condone collusion (just for the record !!!!) I just understand the businessman who has staked everything to move to vegas and become a player ! Right now online games have a loophole !!! Only time will tell if this edge is enough or no impact.
Online games are faster, in general, therefore more profitable than casino games (correct me if I'm wrong). There are much more fish (more profitable) and those cheap bastards don't have to tip anyone.
I have played 5-10, 10-20, 20-40 and little 3-6 on PP. The big games are more difficult but yes on the average ALL games are faster. I suspect after playing live games a lot before PP that Vegas players moving to PP is no wonder. First live games are not always clean, Vegas is the most difficult place to make a living for Poker Players. Going into a casino these guys MAY also play "other" things and lose. (like BJ while on waiting list, craps)
I would have to say that 60% of the las vegas players on paradise are good players but not great enough to beat the games at the bellagio consistently. The other 40% find the games softer online and easier to beat. The las vegas hold em games up to 30-60 are pretty tough games with better competition than the players on paradise. The games at paradise are made for speed and a player with the skills will come out of it with very good money as long as the game is on the straight and there are no expert colluders.
Maybe they don't like cigarette smoke?
- Andrew
you beat me to the punch Andrew....
the internet players at 20/40 (Planet - don't know about Paradise) are much looser callers in the blinds than in real life.
why?
here are some reasons :
1. they don't see you face to face, so they have less fear of the good tight players than they do in person. 2. it's easier to think someone is stealing your blinds when its online than in person, because it you don't see them, so you are automatically suspicious. 3. it's easier to just click call than it is to throw in 4 red chips. 4. there's no chopping online, since most people chop in live games, this allows people to play their blinds when everyone folds. 5. there's more hands, and it goes quicker, which means there's more action, and people get caught up in that (i.e. they tilt easier).
alot of these reasons may also be reasons why people may play worse online, and why it seems there are more bad beats, and more horrible beats online.
I would also add that there's a lot more preflop raising on-line so you almost *have* to loosen your requirements for calling out of the blinds.
But many of the points you make are good ones.
Below I had posted that I had played on Paradise for 270 hours and saw quads once.
Well, in my 271st hour of play, I saw quads 3 times. I couldn't believe it. All of the postings here started infiltrating my brain, and I started to get that feeling that something was not right. So I logged off for the night wondering if I had been lobbying for the wrong side of this debate.
An incident occurred last night, however, that makes me think that poker is just a cruel mistress, and that sometimes weird things just happen.
Home game at my place, 8 handed holdem. I deal the first hand of the night after shuffling the cards for about 20 minutes waiting for players to arrive. The player to my right flopped quad kings, beating another player with A's full.
About 12 hands later, another player hits quad nines on the turn.
About an hour later, I flopped quad queens (first time in my life I've flopped quads).
Toward the end of the night, the river is a Qh, making the player to my rights(who hit kings earlier) royal (he had AKh) which beat another player's 89h straight flush.
Nobody could believe it. I still can't believe it.
What a game we play.
Your home game is obviously rigged and you are a mobster or a master card manipulator. Anyone who plays at your house is moron and is throwing his money away.
It seems difficult for most of you to distinguish between a likely coincidence and manipulation, I guess you like being played like a fiddle. If someone could just get a hole card report showing the anomalies of the RNG, it would make my day.
it seems difficult for most of you to distinguish between sarcasm and seriousness. especially you jv.
I'm a lawyer, not a mobster.
And I wish I was a card manipulator, but I'm too lazy to learn. But if I was a mobster I would go to jail. Perhaps there I could work on my mechanics.
Anyway, I don't need to cheat to routinely wallop the guys I play with. They might need to cheat me, but I doubt any could. Moreover, the guys who hit the jackpot soon lost all of the money they had won. And my quads crippled the deck and I didn't get anything out of them.
If I had the discipline to learn how to deal myself quads, I would probably also learn how to deal someone else lower quads at the same time.
Obviously you don't have to believe me, but this was a straight game and this really happened. Everybody was stunned, to say the least.
You're not a lawyer, you're a Law student. And that guy was joking.
Yeah, I realized that he was joking about 10 minutes after I hit post. That's my bad.
If I were a law student I wouldn't be at the office at 10 pm on Thursday night, I can assure you that much.
Kinish's truck is probably preferrable to big firm hours.
I flopped quads three times within about 2 hours on Paradise the other night. Freaky. But if someone wants to say that it's "fishy," I say no way. Two of the hands were checked around twice. It's not like my quads ever beat a full house or flush. There was no action on these hands. I don't think I have had quads more than 2 or 3 other times in the past 4-5 months. They come in bunches!
what does action have to do with flopping quads?
JV,
Many of the "quads conspiracy" goofs believe that quads are handed out to certain players at certain times for whatever reason.
I've seen people claim the mobsters want people to have beginners luck to keep them around, and then they want people to lose right after they cash out.
The implication is that they use bad beats to facilitate this.
The theory being it doesn't do the mobsters any good if they pick someone to get quads and they get no action on the hand.
I have been playing Hold'em at Paradise for a few months. I hadn't noticed any foul play or odd hands being dealt. Recently (within the last week), I have noticed that the board contains many pairs. It often happens on the flop, like 6 6 A or whatever. By often I mean like 40-50% of the time. I haven't taken records of it, it's just a casual observation, but other players have mentioned it to me. Has anyone else noticed this? I'm still going to play, but I was wondering what the probability of a pair on the flop and a pair on the board is. I don't recall this happening that often in my first few months of play. Check it out and let me know if you notice it.
Jeff
In a post a little while back Andrew Prock wrote:
"When you have less than $200 play .5/1.
When you get to more than $200 move up to 2/4. It's okay to buy-in for the $100 and play till you lose it when you start with $200. However, when you are done with that losing session, go back to .5/1 and win back the rest of the $200 that you just lost.
From $200 to $600 play 2/4
From $600 to $1800 play 3/6
From $1800 to $6000 play 5/10
From $6000 to $12,000 play 10/20
From $12,000 to $30,000 play 15/30
From $30,000 and beyond play 20/40
These numbers may sound conservative, but you're in it for fun - not money - right?
- Andrew "
What if you are in it for the money. I'm a pretty solid player. For a variety of reasons I've started playing 0.5/1.0 (bought in for $50). Can someone give a more accurate portrayal of how a winning player should move up? So far I am doing well, made about $50 in around 10 hrs of play. Certainly not representative of anything, but would still like to hear an assessment.
Each time you are going to move up a level be sure to cash out and re-buy in with a new account. Reason being is that paradise gives winning hands and LOTS OF QUADS to people with new accounts. Follow that logic and you'll be at 20/40 in a few short weeks.
Seriously though, move up whenever you feel comfortable that you can be a winning player at the next level. Never play with "scared money".
Remember, bad runs can and do happen.
These numbers all seem ok, though I am shocked at the minimum amount he gives for playing 20-40. He must think this game has huge swings, much more than the 15-30. He gives a 12k minimum bankroll for playing 15-30 but a 30k minimum, despite only a $5 difference in limit! Even if the 20-40 is a wilder game, I would still say that 20k would be a good minimum bankroll for this game. 30k is very conservative, IMHO.
A good aggresive player should earn about $40 per hour in $20-40 online game with about $600 stdev. His bankroll should be $15000 for a %0.5 chance of ruin.
An excellent player with about $60/h and $600 stdev should need only $10000 for a 0.5% chance of busting out.
$30000 is way enough for a winning player.
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
Ljubljana, Slovenia
http://www.fekali.com/angelina
I said that the numbers were conservative. The main reason for the jump from 15/30 to 20/40 is because it is THE game. The best play it, and it is more volatile than the 15/30 in my experience.
While I may not have said it, I was also referring to your "money" game. That is, the game which you play most of the time. Taking shots at higher (and lower) limits should be done fairly regularly.
- Andrew
I was playing on paradise with play money the other day. There were some tournaments going on so i decided to watch. I clicked on one of the lower limit tournaments and right when the deal was coming out i was shown the hole cards for every player face up. Is this something that has happened to anyone else?
Are you sure you weren't seeing the high carding for the beginning button.
They are all turned face up.
That was probably it! Thanks Rounder.
Rounder; Your poker prowess is second to none.
nt
I think when people start complaining that there are far too many quads etc. -they should keep in mind that on average there is average of 100 tables going or more and the amount of hands dealt per single table are much faster than in live play.With so many tables and so many hands dealt it is only natural for quads to appear "often".
How many tables at a time do you play in?
I live in the UK and rarely get the chance to play Omaha 8 outside of the occasional pot limit dealers choice game. Would some of you care to share your thoughts as to where the best games ($10-20 and above) can be found? Also, how are most card rooms with regards to transaction fees and cashing out?
Richard
I just want to relate my first experience on Highlands Club Poker.I opened my account last nite with ease and downloaded the software without a glitch.Seeing Texas Dolly's face on the page was reasuring,and they address the collusion aspect in detail.After a terrible run and several very suspicious incidents on Paradise,and the unacceptable time delay's on Planet I was very leary about another site.What a pleasure to play on a site that was the fastest,the best graphics,and heads above the others.My first sit was in a 3/6,and I lost 100 in an hour,but the overall experience was a great one,and I hit the rack happy I signed up.This a.m. I jumped into a 5 handed 10/20 and thought I died and went to Heaven.To make a long story short I took a profit of over 1100$ in an a 2 hour sit against the weakest players Ive had the pleasure to play against.I highly recommend trying this site if you've been unhappy with the others.A+
I'm just curious, what do you do for a living?
no mesage
I heard that Highlands was giving some players a freeroll. Now there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that, but I would be curious to know if anyone else can confirm that they are doing this and what you have to do to get that freeroll. Some of our readers might be interested.
I have played @ Highlands since June 6. I have heard of no freerolls. Bought $500 & now have $7700. Good site & getting better daily.
any incentive to sign up (add on to your deposit, etc.)? I wonder why the upstarts don't do this (give you a bonus) -- it's very common among sports books and non-poker gamling sites...
$25 Bonus @ sign up
I believe you could match all 1st deposits ( with cash out restrictions) and still get rich. Somebody do the math. PS With maybe a $500 limit.
Mason,after I posted I realized it sounded like an ad,Im not affiliated with any site whatsoever and only relayed my experience as it was a pleasant one,sorry if I violated any policy.Im also not one of the ones that are on a freeroll but it is supposedly happening.They gave some players a 1000$ credit which they will take back in 3? months but this is heresay on my part.As for what I do for a living,well...........my wife has a great job.
From what Ive found out from someone who supposedly got in it,here was the deal (but its over now).Some players at the Bellagio were given a 1000$ credit for opening an account,they have to play for 3 months and cannot withdraw any funds whatsoever until the time limit is up.Then before they can withdraw any funds Highlands Club takes back the original 1000$ or any thing thats left if its under a dime.
I was suspicious that your original post was just an ad. We do get some of those and thus my challenge. Your clarifications does clear things up. Thanks for the info.
Paul, I agree with you.
I opened my Highlands account with my own money also and was given a $25 bonus immediately.
I have tried all the other sites and like Highlands Club and their personal service the best. Since I began playing on 9/16 I have made some *nice* money and the cashout process went smoothly.
I have recommended several players to this site and continue to do so without reservation.
Diane from Green Bay
I think I started there around june but I never recieved any kind of sign up bonus.But I have cashed out 5 times and every cheque I have recieved was couriered to my door in 5 days or less each time.
Does Highlands Club ever respond to there email I have emailed them twice with no answer if there customer service is poor it makes me think twice of opening an account. Has anyone else had this problem? I just had a few questions to ask them but never got an email back.
The first time I played I kept getting disconnected and put all in.I then got a phone call to my house from the customer support and they helped me rectify the problem.(the problem was that if I had Napster playing and I had the sound on in the poker game it caused my screen to freeze)so I just turned off the sound .Anyway I thought that the service there was unbelieveable.If paradise had this and a room host a each table ,they would be untouchable(if they aernt all ready.)
Tournament hands
Blinds are 25/50 I have over T900 with AQs in mid position I raise 2 limpers all others fold.
Flop is 888 (pretty common for PP) I raise with my almost full house and get called - turn is a 8 (big suprise quads on PP) now i have the nutz - bet I raise and get reraised I reraise and get called by both. turn is a J we raise each other until we all get our money in.
One guy has a set of J's and the other had a K high hand.
How stupid were they.
Gues the one guy thought he had a super full boat - 4-8's full of 3 J's LOL
Next hand is a bit more serious.
NLHE on poker spot 200 players in a freeroll.
I have just under a grand and JJ in mid position I make it 150 to go (3xbb) called by both blinds who both have about the same as I do the BB is a really horrible NL player so anything can be expected of him.
FLOP - A J 8 (2 clubs) I bet $100 - all in, all in I gladly but all my chips in too. Hoping they both have A anything - One had AQo other had 2 black K's - I am looking good - they are drawing near dead "right" except for the running clubs and I am out of there.
Well I played it near perfect (I feel) and lost.
What's a guy to do.
Just curious, what level was the Paradise Poker tournament? Hope you won with your monster pile of chips at level 2.
I won - $10 tournament.
I happen to run into a former poster on 2+2 (and current lurker, I think) and friend Big John.
I haven't seen the big guy since last year at Crystal Park it was nice to run into him on line.
I'm a little confused. You have a little under a grand, but after raising 150, you only have 100 left to go all in with? I would call a 100 bet in thier spots with both of thier holdings.
OK - I bet $100 UTG post flop to entice the all in bets which I called.
It was a No Limit tournament.
I wanted to get one or both of these guys all in as I knew I had the best hand at the time and they were probably drawing dead.
As a former ad man I posit this ad slogan free of charge.
"Come to PP - we have more quads than a speed shop and more sets than Playboy, Hustler and Penthouse put together.
:-)
With all the quads, they ought to have bad beat jackpots.
This a message to whomever is in the position to make technical decisions regarding the website. Please change these colors. My little sister could have designed a better looking website. This is constructive criticism not a blatant knock at the developers; however, this website design is terrible. Thanks!!!:):):)
Student,
I don't think the goal of this website is to out-design your little sister.
I like the layout of 2+2 just fine. I see too many websites with annoying popups and animations and paisley backgrounds that make it impossible to even read the damn text. I am not here for eye candy.
If you really hate the colors, you can override them in your browser settings. If you don't know how, ask your little sister.
Very good PPP
I agree too. I like the simple design and have no problem with the colors. I kinda like 'em, actually.
Keep it the way it is.
keep polishing S&M's knob
If they change it I will never come here again.
Hear that Chuck etal - Now that IS reason to change things.
:-)
As a veteran of five (gruesome) eye surgeries, I can read against the yellow background perfectly. What change(s) do you have in mind?
I don't think there is house cheating on PP. They have too much lose and nothing to gain. Think about it, they do not need to manipulate cards to keep losers in the game, losers will play regardless, as in live games either because they think they are winners or they really enjoy the sport. With the success net poker might have, lots of competition will spring up (u can see this already) and integrity is all they have to keep players on their server. This is a freakin money tree for the server, even at only a dollar rake. There is little overhead compared to live games and players can earn more without tokes and the smaller rakes. Who has the most to lose here? The live cardrooms do. Too many quads or strong hands? I don't think so. I've played hundreds of hours of the WSOP game, I make the final table virtually every game I play, and the hands I see are no different than on PP. dOn't tell me that software is rigged too. Again common sense tells you that if a table deals 40 something hands an hour with 50-70% of players seeing the flop, you are going to see plenty of hands. Do the math, if 5 players see the flop at 40 hands an hour, that is like 200 5 card hands in a single hour! Paradise conspiracy?? It's kinda like the Richard Gere gerbil story, u can only hear it so many times before u think there could be some truth to it. However I've gone back and looked through the archive posts and it's always the same ten people or so feuling the fire. Statistics are the magic behind our hobby, and ten or so players out of the hundreds of PP players aren't convincing me there is foul play. I think it was Mike Caro that wrote that losers of the game always look for external forces to blame, the dealer, the deck, the seat yada yada yada, instead of loking at their own lousy play. I've had success on PP and have more than doubled my buy-in, I'll continue to play untill I notice otherwise.
Yeah..and organized criminals......too.The list of players noting inconsistancies is much more than ten. 10 new posters a week seems more true.Get a clue. 2+2 and Conjelco are on the take.
Hi all,
Ok ... for those of you who are looking for conspriacy theories and discussion of an overabundance of quads ... go elsewhere.
Still reading?? Good.
I've been playing off and on at Paradise for a couple of months now, and, as I'm sure many of you will agree, it seems that game selection is THE most important factor in deciding whether your session is a profitable one.
Seeing as Paradise is kind enough to provide us with table stats, I was wondering what criteria some of the other players use in deciding which games to take a swing at.
As a starter, here's some of the things I check:
Players/flop: This is useful for gauging looseness of the table. I operate on the following rough guidelines: >40% always play; 35%-40% play; 30%-35% play, but look for better games; 25%-30% play only if I'm in prime game shape; and <25%, don't play at all. So far, since I stay at 5/10 or below, this has been working for me, but seeing as games are rarely this good at 10/20 and above, I think I'm pretty much stuck playing the lower limits, although I would like to play higher.
Pot Size: I probably go counter to most people's preferences--I tend to look for the smaller pot sizes. These occur on more passive tables, which allow me to get more free/cheap cards. Anything around 5 or 6 BB/pot is just about right, I find. (Of course, I'll select on looseness over passiveness every time.)
Hands/hr: The major advantage of the online industry is the sheer number of hands that the software can deal in an hour. However, the hands/hr gauge is also a good way to determine whether the game that looks juicy (>45%/flop) is actually a short-handed game that has just filled up with rocks, since it will still be abnormally high.
So the executive summary ... I like games where about (35+-5)% see the flop, where the pot is about 5-6 BB on average, and where the hands/hr gauge is about par for the course (about 50 for 2/4, 58 for 3/6, 65 for 5/10).
How about the rest of you guys? Do you agree for the most part, or do you have other criteria? (I've neglected saying anything about the players on the waiting list ... that also becomes a factor sometimes, even when I'm actually sitting and playing.)
Also, I'm curious as to how anybody can make money in some of these higher limit games where the players/flop percentage drops below 20%. May the best blind stealer win, I guess ... ;)
At any rate, kind of a scattered collection of thoughts,
Dave
Dave,
This is a GREAT post.
I agree about looseness and size of pot. I find that the variance is much lower when the pot sizes are not too crazy, so it is worth finding the lower pots/passive tables. I have personally done by far the best on these: If the table stays together and I play tight and agressively, I can just watch my stack build unless I get some terrible bad beats. On the other hand the bigger pots will often mean a big fish, playing loose and crazy, this can be wonderful.
Mark
How do the Paradise Poker Tourney's work? I'd just like a run down of the structure they use and how you advance and anything else along these lines. What are the different table levels?
Thanks for the help.
All the tourneys are limit, 10-handed holdem.
The buy-ins are 10, 20, 50, and 100. I think the vig is about 10-15%. I usually play only 100s and there is a 9% entry fee. I think this is the best value.
The payout is 50/30/20.
Each player starts with a t800 stack. The blinds start at 10/20 (i think) and roughly double each round. Each round lasts for ten hands.
If you are lucky enough to win, it should take less than 1 hour 20 minutes. Unless you are a maniac or lose some big nads early, you should last until the final 5 and that takes about 45 minutes.
Long Live Paradise? - maybe not? new kid on block..
I'm a winning online poker player that mostly plays on Paradise. I started way back in July 1998 at Planet. I've also played at pokerspot and delta. I've won serious money at all of the online sites that I've played and I also consistenly win (on a annual basis) in middle-limit games in the Los Angeles area.
Planet Poker was the number one internet cardroom before Paradise opened up for real money. Paradise started their real money games sometime back in November of 1999. They almost immediately overtook Planet's pole position in the online poker arena. They usually have over 1,000 players (including play money tables, tournament and players playing at two tables) during the peak periods. Planet only has about 300 players during a similiar peak period.
Paradise Poker was able to overtake Planet primarily via a superior software design and a faster more reliable internet connection to Costa Rica. Both sites provide excellent cashout performance and support response times. I won't even bother to discuss the "idiot theories" regarding too many quads, cashout bad karma, etc. that might be believed by some regarding one site or the other.
Here we are again...almost exactly one year to the date that Paradise started their real money games. They are clearly the Top Dog in this new virtual cardroom world. But, I just stumbled onto (via the Iwon.com search engine...since they don't seem to advertise yet) a new online poker site that probably will knock down Paradise Poker to second place. It won't happen overnight.
In fact, the site is only in beta testing with play money now and probably won't be dealing real money for months at least. But, the graphics of this new poker site is far more advance and "more fun" to play than Paradise. It is the next logical step in the evolution of online cardrooms. Just like Paradise software was the next evolution of Planet's software interface.
This new site is called www.truepoker.com. I don't work for them or have any financial interest in their business (other than hoping to win money when they become the new leader). I'll point out the negatives of this site also in this review to offer some balance.
But here's the positives. I've downloaded the beta software and only played about a total of 3 hours today. The graphics are awesome and like a Sony Playstation 2 video game instead of the flat 2-d overhead view of the Paradise tables. You are seated in a 3-D perspective of the poker table and ALL of the players (including yourself) are different 3-D avators with completely unique personalities. Well, actually just some simple mannerisms like smoking, drinking martini's, the nerd guy adjusts his falling glasses, the sexy babe with her teasing body gestures, the terminator android with his robotic voices and movement,etc...etc..
The details of the graphics are very impressive and beautifully done. Even the particular "room" that you are playing in changes with the limits and game type. One room is a bar with billiard table in background. Another room is like in a atrium like garden. Another room has a beautiful Mirage-like fish aquarium in the room. Your hole cards are placed face down on the table in front of you and you have to "peek at them" just like in a real world cardroom. Your opponents can "see" that you are looking at your hole cards because your avator realistic "peeks" at the cards. So, you can actually have an online tell to check for the big spade when the fourth spades hits on the river! Or trick your opponents via a reverse tell signal that you do have it when you don't!
I think this type of online poker environment with the 3-D playstation-like graphics, dealer voices, sounds effects, beautiful rooms will strongly attract recreational type players especially those who "ARE INTO VIDEO GAMES" but fairly new to poker. That's of course great for us serious winnning players. But I think most serious players (that play more for profit than fun) won't appreciate these fancy graphics as they slow down the game. They don't slow the game in terms of technical performance. But, with everyone admiring the cute animation, it must slow everything down. Also they don't offer the option to play two tables at once. Serious player can get over 110 hands/hour with this opportunity. You guys have to see the graphics for yourself, it's very impressive the first time you see it. I think they are suppose to have some games everyday at 6pm pacific according to their log in screen message. Most of the time, the site is dead with no one playing since it's so new..about 3 weeks old I'm told by Ed (the support dude that plays there sometimes).
They have two versions to download. I download the big version which is 23 megs!! It took me about 2 hours on my slow connection. But since it's a one-time thing, it's worth it for better graphics. They also have a 10megs version that has inferior graphics. They also have some preview screen shots on their web site in case you don't want to download the game. But, I highly recommend you download the game to check out the play money beta games to see this new poker software environment first hand.
Let me know what you guys think of the site. Will this crush Paradise when it starts dealing real money? Or fancy graphics don't attract "real poker players"? It sure is something totally different from the planet, delta, pokerspot or paradise software. I believe this could be the next new online poker cardroom leader based on how popular the playstation 2 is this XMas season.
Thanks for the report bum.
I cruised around the site a bit today. I agree the 3-D perspective is pretty cool looking.
The owners certainly talk the talk when discussing their game on their site. It remains to be seen if they can back up their claims.
I also noticed they will be offering "TexasHoldEm/Hi-Low"?
Consider this: If one wanted to make a lot of money in an online cardroom now, what would be the best way? Obviously Paradise Poker has a firm hold on the market and other start ups since then have struggled to make any inroads. If I were a thief and a cheat and wanted to profit from online poker, I would simply create an attractive site for poker play, and make my software available for download. I would also make this software unbelievably attractive looking. Many people would download it to give it a whirl and test it out, and many of them would be Paradise players. Would it be difficult to write in a piece of the software that transmits a players hole cards to me when they are playing at Paradise. I don't know if it would or not... but my personal opinion is that I should let a site be established and running before I run off and start installing lots of random foreign nationals software... just some thoughts. CT
Cyber Thoughts comments are absurd in regards to truepoker.com software. The principle is valid. That is of offering a Trojan Horse via an attractive software add-on to read Paradise hole cards.
But, the software at truepoker.com is even MORE advanced than the software that Paradise poker currently has. It would be absurd to invest about $250,000-$350,000 U.S. (as a Computer Professional with a B.S. and 15 years experience...I guess that would be there cost) in software development to plant a trojan horse. A simple program like a nice utility to store hand histories for Paradise players and analysize your opponents would do that trick.
Lay off the crack man.
You win the prize for the longest post in 2000 hope your record holds up.
I have started to play Paradise tourneys, and I feel that the limits should stop at a number like 300-600 or 400-800 to make the game for the last 2-4 people less of a crapshoot at the end.
The only tourney I won (of 4 played) I got AA and flopped an A and then quad 7's on the next hand and broke everyone at low limits like these...but they could have believd me and foled and lived on.
HOWEVER: Once it gets to 600-1200 or whatever, it gets too crazy, so I've come in 3rd twice and 4th once without any chance to play better than my opponents. Especially one of the thirds and the fourth, I felt that I had no chance, the blinds just killed me...so it wasn't a game of skill in any way then.
How about it Paradise? I would play the extra 5-10 minutes!!!
Mark
There's no reason for them to do that. The games would last longer, but they need you to finish this game and start another. Just my opinion.
I agree, I have like 35 4th places out of 100 tournies, its really annoying that the very critical point that you NEED a hand you get crap in the crapshoot. The tourny devolves into more of a no-limit situation towards the end, which is nice in so ways but shifts the game into more luck than skill.
One tourny in particular, I got down to $25 at the $100-200 blinds point and came back to win, and one hand...K8o in SB to a raise...was critical. Bad play, pure luck I hit two pair but it was into luck-mostly time.
Nothing on PP is more annoying to me than a 4th place, not even the unbelievable ring game suckouts.
How often do they spread no limit tourney's on Pokerspot.
Any responses would be appreciated.
Thanks
Right now no tournaments are scheduled they cancelled the 1st buy in one yesterday and did another freeroll in stead. Looks like they are gonna accomidate 200 players for the tourneys. The 2 I played in were well run - the hand values seemed really high but maybe I am parinoid about the on line deal.
I do miss the live action of tournaments and this cyber stuff will never raplace sitting across the table from a guy and looking him in the eye as you push all your chips in.
Check out their home page pokerspot.com and click on tournaments.
You need an account set up 10 hours or so in advance to play in tournaments so I suggest setting up an a/c now you don't have to put any money in just need a valid Visa or MC card.
You also need to down load their software which takes 10 to 20 min.
Cheers
Problem with PS. NO HAND HISTORIES! I sent a request they wanted to know the game #'s!
Another problem is that the websites for all of these Online poker places SUCK! I want info, news, information on WTF they are spending my rake money on, etc.
I would have to say PlanetPoker's website is the best. I don't even play there, I just visit to read thier site! They have articles and information and they tell you about server upgrades and STUFF.
I just can't figure out why these places can't get the whole package together.
1. Games/hour 2. Fast Cashouts 3. Ergonomic Software 4. Single and Multi-table tournaments 5. Overly informative websites 6. Pretty Software 7. Publicized plans of action to improve the above.
Oh well maybe someday.
"The hand values seemed really high"
You are either paranoid or lucky. I played the freeroll and made it to the last 50. I never had AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99. I also never had AK. I think the best hand I had was AQ. I had a few Axs and a couplke pocket pairs but never flopped a set, straight, two pair, or lucky flop.
Every chip I won was dirty money unless you count the time i tried a big resteal with 53s on the button, only to get cold called by the big blind.
The flop came 223 suited. He checked and called my big bet on the flop. The turn was an offsuit ten. He checked and called my all-in bet and then mucked on the river when a non-flush king fell.
I also won a couple of legitimate hands when I tried to steal with QT, KT, and AT, and made top pair and picked off an obvious, but sizable river bluff with my King high.
High hand values my eye.
I played 4 hands and won 3 all with full houses the disaster set of J's was my last hand.
Hey I played 3 PP tournaments last night and there were quads in everyone of them set over set in several hands (I recorded 2) that's in about 150 hands.
If you play "real" poker you would realize in 150 hands you just don't get 3 quads and 2 set over set and that's just the ones I know about.
Now maybe the explination about how the dealers break up pairs and sets before the shuffel is the reason. But you just can't tell me it is the same thind cuz it isn't.
BTW I have never accused anyone of cheating just making observations and if you bloody PPphiles can't tolerate a little observation I have to think you have some vested interest in the business.
I didn't know I was a bloody PPhile. I was just making some observations myself in response to your observations. About the very same tournament. Obervations based on limited data can be misleading. People have served up objective, statistically sound analysis of hand data from Paradise to disprove the notion that "big" hands are coming up any more often than they should. You dismiss this as fodder for mathe weenies and offer up your limited anecdotal evidence to refute it.
Your arrogant dogmatism is staggering.
NT
You're welcome. I'm in a bad mood today. I just voted here in New York and got accosted by Hillary voters. I just don't understand how people here can allow themselves and their state to be used by that blatant fraud.
I am amazed!!!
I'm sure this post has been discussed before, but I'm curious.
I play a lot on Paradise, play money though. I'm quite weary of entering the real money tables, not because I think everybody's good. I think I'm good enough to hold my own, at least for a little while.
My main concern of Internet gambling is the obvious, how rampant is the cheating? I'm not talking about the QUAD thing on Paradise, I'm referring to people cheating with each other. Like if my friend from wherever and I manage to play on the same table, there are so many ways we can convey our cards to each other (if that helps or not), email, ICQ, phone, etc.
Should this affect my desire to play for real money? Thanks everyone.
NO
Could you possibly elaborate on your interesting answer?
Stick to playing with the funny money, however continue practice reading hands with precision playing with proper pot odds is a must. I know I would be sorta be sceptical about playing with real money on the internet. Play with real money in a casino where you can get a good read on live people where you have cameras above the tables to keep everybody honest including the dealers...... I use the internet to practice reading hands down almost accurately if I cant then I resort to mathematics. (other sites for free play are "www.hotpoker.com" and "www.pokerroom.com")
A very simple answer. What did you want???
Cheating by collusion was my main concern about internet poker. A secondary concern was the proprietor stiffing me if I won.
After I played online a few hours, I noticed that it would be very easy to spot colluders and also noted that hand histories provide certain proof of their actions.
I can honestly say that in around 550 hours of poker, both live and online, that I have seen far more instances of collusion in live play than online.
It is easy to beat in either case. Someone attempting collusion at low limits is usually a rotten player anyway and a couple times I have suspected players trying to 'whipsaw' me or force me out while I held the best hand. Didn't work out too good for the 'cheaters.' The best way to beat cheaters at low limit is also the best way to beat players who don't cheat:
Play good cards.
I have only played up to 5/10, so I can't comment on the higher limits.
The most widespread form of cheating I see on line is abuse of the 'all-in' protection. Again, this is ridiculously easy to spot and reporting these goofballs seems to work eventually.
I would always be on the lookout for cheating, but also be aware that it is easier to prove instances of cheating online as opposed to live. In live poker, you can alert the floorperson after the fact, then they have to actually witness the cheating while they are attending to their other duties. You cannot "go back" and review players folded hands in live poker.
Online, every hand and every bet is documented, so nailing cheaters is much easier.
As for my secondary concern, I have not had any problems cashing out with Planet Poker.
HEY PLANET POKER PLAYER WHATS TO STOP four PEOPLE IN A ROOM WITH COMPUTERS KEEPING TRACK OF EACH OTHERS HANDS?? and doing it with subtelity at right moments. I still remember the old days of "whip-sawing"
I will tell you whats to stop 4 people from colluding.There are alot of players who kepp logs of players and since I play every day I notice when the same poeple play with each other and have reported it to support.Support has also told me that they have "alarms " ringing on cetain situations.For example when you fold AQ pre flop and your "partner" holds AK to act after you .They ring when the same people continuallt play at the same table--thats how that loser who was committing the credit card fraud got caught(1 of the reasons)
Jason, Do you have local card-room in a 100 mile radius ??? If the answer is no, what choice do you have ??? Collusion is a problem no matter what. So don't play mediocre hands or even very good hands 3 way. If suspicious move or quit. I mean this should be enough to try 5-10. DON'T much go beyond that because the playing field is thougher. (well 10-20 is ok still). If there is raising and re-reasing three way you being the third playing with aliases like "cheater" or "iseeyours" may be time to go. Also avoid "cellman" and "chatguy"
People are colluding. I know people (not me of course) who go to a lab and share card information. But, it is not big deal. It is very difficult to make tons of money colluding, unless you really know what you are doing. Sklansky ran colluding questions and most people couldn't answer them correctly. So, if there is rampant colluding, they aren't wiping out tables by any means.
You mean college computer lab ??? I see. I always thought these guys have a interactive chat channel going besides their browser, but that could slow down their modem connections to be out of the game most of the time.The other think is a backup line,or a cell phone.(this could get kind of expensive) so if you just a rock on 5-10 there is no way you could lose because of this. You can lose cause shit happens and you play like crap. Would the University lab allow poker playing - what school is this ???
I have MANY casinos within a 100-mile radius. I'm thinking of playing money tables on the Net because I see the same people in live play, they get predictable and so do I. I see a lot of fish on Paradise (maybe I'm one of them)
I know there's nothing I can do.
YES THERE IS... learn to change gears on the net... mix up your game try new stategies....howbeit only with play money... then build your confidence level up on the internet for free then then tackle the live tables in a real casino. When you say predictable maybe there is a obvious "TELL" you have in certain situations in a live table you need to get rid of... discover what it is.
if you're worried about cheating, don't use Paradise - I'm not saying there is cheating there, but many people do not feel comfortable there. I'd recommend Planet Poker - I've always felt comfortable there, plus they have an actual player looking and watching the games sometimes to look out for collusion.
Of course, their downfall is that they have had connection problems in the past...but that seems to have subsided lately.
Man, Planet Poker has no players !!!! This brings up a point, how many of your pundits think many of Paradise players are paid by Paradise ????????? The bad case of poker is with out players (lose ones) you have nothing. Incidentally can anyone count on Online BJ ???? Anyone out there tried ????
Well, clearly Paradise has more players than Planet - but at Planet, during the peak times, you'll usually find one full 20/40 game, one full 15/30 game (or a full 5 player max 15/30 game), two full 10/20 games. I don't know about the lower limits.
Even during the non-peak hours (such as 6am Pacific time), I can usually find at least a 5 handed 15/30 or 20/40 game - and since I enjoy playing short as well as in a full game, this serves my interest plenty.
Wishfull thinking. Typically, they won't tell you the number of decks (infinite?) or when they shuffle.
how many times should this be said/// if people are really worried about online cheating... just play with funny money NOT GREENBACKS... JUST use these sites to sharpen your skills for the real casinos.
I really can't see the value in using play money tables to sharpen, strengthen or improve real money play for the obvious reason..there is NO money involved.
I only play at play money tables at Paradise. As a frequent player who plays at the play money to sharpen my poker skills for the real thing, this is how it works. If enough players are at the table (4-5 of them) that play for the same reason, then play will mimic how real poker is played. Often times this means leaving a table when you are surrounded by "lottery" players. Also, after a while, you learn who the serious players are; join their table; and get some real life practice in w/out the stress of real money or the paranoia of the many "conspiracies" listed at this forum.
Is it exactly how real life poker is? Well, no, but this is the internet. If you want real life poker, I suggest visiting your nearest card room.
ummm...trust me, I do ... lol
Uhhh... if you haven't seen it yet or played it, I doubt you'll believe it. Absolutly incredible. even some tells are available like the player looking to their cards when 4 of a suit fall. Bye bye Paradise.
FC
too slow, at least right now.
but i agree, if they can get their act together, and its a fair game, i'd be there too.
NICE!!!!!! One thing that frustrates me with web poker is that it is harder to remember player actions by names in little ovals, the 3D skins will really help and the eye candy makes it more fun to sit in front of the computer
Looks very nice! Took 2 minutes to download the high-res version. Another 2 minutes to sign up/create a player.
Too bad I'm the only person there right now and can't see how cool it really is.
I posted on Truepoker.com below first in a thread called LONG LIVE PARADISE--Maybe not?
It took me 2 hours to download the 23meg hires version! You must have a T3 or T1 connection, right?
According to the display message, games are at 6pm pacific...I guess they have some props/employees to sit in then. It's all free play money now anyway
Cable modem. I averaged 250K/sec downloading according to netstat live :)
Thx for the info, I read that thread after reading this one. Will check it out during the evening on thursday.
This is very very very nice. Played for about 30 minutes, switched over to Paradise and then Paradise felt cheesy. I'm very excited about the prospect of this place opening.
PM
I also have cable and it took about 2 minutes to install (downloads within the install program). I did have a disconnect while filling in the signup form but was automatically reconnected. Had to refill the form. Anyway, a very nice site but a little confusing at first, hard to keep up with the action. I'm sure it'll get better after more usage.
I tried it out and it does seem pretty cool.But I found it alot slower per hand than paradise but did seem more like a "real".There may be a few tells to watch on this site as well. Its different and a nice change of pace but I think I like Paradise better.
I predict that TruePoker will attract more people from Planet than from Paradise, at least relatively (measured in percentage). I feel that Planet is threatened with extinction.
I played it a bit last night. It was pretty cool.
Can anyone tell me how much you can earn in a 2-4,3-6 and 5-10 dollars holdem game in paradisepoker?
I mean that you have often 50-60 hand per houry.
Thanks Johan.
With good game selection you should be able to earn 20 bucks per hour pretty easily at 5-10. The swings are pretty big, though, and you would need a 5-7k bankroll, imo.
Not sure about the lower limits. I think the rake is tougher but the games are fishier.
Just got this email from PS.
Hello,
Here is the tournament schedule for this week, and we have some buy in tournaments scheduled. If there are any problems in the free beta tournaments or if we think there might be a problem with a buy in tournament, then it will be a free beta tournament. We will notify all players in the Message of the Day as soon as we know whether it will be a free beta or buy in tournament.
Tuesday, 11/7 2pm central/8pm GMT 1/2 Pot Limit Omaha/8, 1/2 Hold'em ($300)
Wednesday, 11/8 2pm central/8pm GMT Limit Hold'em ($15 Buy In)
Thursday, 11/9 9pm central/3am GMT No Limit Hold'em ($300)
Friday, 11/10 9pm central/3am GMT Limit Hold'em ($15 Buy In)
Saturday, 11/11 2pm central/8pm GMT Limit Hold'em ($15 Buy In)
Sunday, 11/12 2pm central/8pm GMT 1/2 Pot Limit Omaha/8, 1/2 Hold'em ($15 Buy In)
If the free beta tournaments go well, then our first buy in tournament will be this Wednesday. If there are any problems with the free beta tournaments, then the buy in tournaments may also simply be free beta tournaments.
The Internet being what it is, players participate at their own risk. Some players will probably be disconnected from the tournaments due to events beyond our control. If this occurs and the player is unable to reconnect, then we will refund the buy in amount (provided the player did not disconnect on purpose).
The top 7 places are awarded prizes for the free beta tournaments. The prize pool and payout structure for the buy in tournaments depends on the number of players. We do not take a percentage of the buy in, so the entire buy in total will be available for the prize pool.
To participate in the buy in tournaments, you will need to deposit $15 in your Real Money account. The buy in amount will be deducted from your account at the start of the tournament.
If you are disconnected from the Internet or tournament, to rejoin the tournament you must close all tables, log in and place your name on the waiting list for the tournament. You will be returned to your seat in a minute or two.
As always, the tournament guidelines posted on our site at http://www.pokerspot.com/guidelines.html apply.
If you have any questions, please let us know!
Sincerely,
The Pokerspot Team support@pokerspot.com
Given their rules, it will be hilarious to watch the online strategy for playing a short stack.
"Damn, I got disconnected (I wonder who unplugged my modem?)"
Yeah I thought of that one too when I saw it.
We have "power outages" here too and my cat has been known to chew through the cords :-)
Now that pokerspot has broken the NL PL poker barrier I think it is time for up to organize a 2+2 championship tournament. It is a chance for an international match up since posters here are come from all parts of the world - if we could convince PS to help us out, here is a format I'd like to see in a tournament to crown a 2+2 champ.
The buy in is not that important to me but I suspect we'd get a lot more players if we kept it kind of medium priced. I'd like to see at least 5 getting paid off maybe the entire final table.
3 tournaments.
1st limit HE $100 bi + juice 2nd PL HE $100 bi + 3rd NL HE $200 bi +
Points being awarded based on place in each tournament with double points for the last event.
To qualify you have to be a known poster DS,MM & Chuck should be the final word on this - heck they might even play in it.
This is to get the ball rolling - I am open to any alterations like a 4th tournament TOC style or adding stud and Omaha or anything else.
I think it would be a ball.
Great idea Rounder...
I have 2 comments :
1. I think that you have to include a limit stud and a pot-limit omaha tourney (I'm not sure PS has a software for stud yet...) I would then eliminate the pot-limit hold'em tourney... This would evidently give us the best all-around player.
2. I think the buy-ins should be lower if you want a real 2+2 battle, I'd love to participate but I can't put up 400$ US for an online tourney. (With better than average players) At that price I'd rather play a live one with clowns. I stand a better chance to win. I'm not an expert yet. The price would be too steep for me. I can't say for other countries but us canadians have to pay 1.5 times the amount in US currency this would mean 600 $.
Hell if I'm the only poor one, I'll still watch it from the sidelines...
The Prince
I think it is a great idea, but this forum is really more geared toward limit ring games. I doubt you'll get much support from the higher-ups.
It would be nice to have the higher ups involved but it is something we can organize on out own. I have written PS and hope for an answer.
I am eager for a chance to play with guys I have been corresponding with for a couple of years now.
I have learned a lot from your posts, and I think this is an excellent idea. I am also from Canada and would not put up that much money to play against such strong opponents.
In the mean time, would you like to arrange a PP single table tournament ($20 or $30). I think if I played with you, you may be able to comment on my play. If we arranged a time I bet we could fill a table quickly enough to be almost exclusively 2+2 posters.
Derrick
I'll be there during the late night session I am coming off 3 consecutive wins - 20 $ range so I may be due for a stinker. I will be happy to discuss it with you.
My email is guzaldo@yahoo.com
How about we try and find a 20+2 table at around 1 EST. If you see one that says waiting for players sit down at it. My PP Alias is Ashworth. What is yours?
Derrick
I agree with Derrick. The buy in is a little steep for newbie's like me. And a $100 buy is actually a $150 buy in for us Canucks. The Paradise tourney idea is a good one I think. Set up a time and fill a table full of 2+2'ers.
I'd love to play with you somtime Rounder. I learn a ton from your posts and think I would benefit a lot from playing with you. Also, I've always been curious about this low variance style of yours that you comment on. I think most of the discussion on your style was talked about before I even knew what holdem was. If you want to, I'd love to here from you about your style of play, both preflop and postflop. Email me if you want to and have the time. If not that is understandable.
I play both tournament sessions will be there tonight when I wakr up if I get any sleep at all.
my email is guzaldo@yahoo.com
I am also playiing the pokerspot.com tourneys I posted the schedule on this board.
I have to say my tournament play is a bit different than ring game play - In tournaments I play stronger and more positional but never any speculative hands like med. suited coupled. until short handed then anything goes depending on stack and position.
Rounder,
I love your idea with the pokerspot tourney. Just one thing to think about, please: If possible, let´s try to make this tourney(s) on weekend-days, since it´s not to easy to get up at 4 a.m when you have to go to work a few hours later.
Also keep in mind that a 100$ buy in might be really a little too high to get lots of players in. Maybe 30-50 would be more attractive to some of the posters (including me).
Anyway, I´m really looking forward to play with all these posters here. I´m sure there´s a lot to learn.
Regards
M.A.
I'm new to internet poker. Several poker friends have reported positive results. I looked at the the sites, and played for pretend stakes. Finally, I invested a small amount of money to play for dollars as opposed to make-believe stakes.
Ignorance has a price. For example, yesterday, on Paradise, I raised to three bets after the flop and a yellow message flashed "waiting for server". After twenty seconds the message disappeared and so did my cards, as my hand was mucked. My three bets, however, were added to the pot. I'm absolutely new at this, and by the time I realized that I should record the eight digit number which identifies the round, I wasn't sure which it was.
Now it is obvious that I keep writing material handy to record the round if I want to petition the virtual floorman. Beside this, before I invest serious money, what else should anyone but a compleat (sic) fool know before getting involved? I've reviewed the posts here and gleaned some insights. Is there some good source of information?
Go to the Paradise lobby, request hand histories be emailed to you. Hint - use the down arrow to go from the 5 standard histories down past 1 to 100. Paradise records every hand you play, and assuming you have not played more than 100 hands since then, you can find the one your interested in. Also, I understand that you can contact support and they should be able to help. Contact them at "support@paradisepoker.com". Hope this helps.
You should have been placed in "all in" status, which means you didnt win the pot, since your money is gone. Hand History should reveal the results.
What I think happened is this. Your all-in status was probably at 0 (right hand top corner) therefore the next time you get disconnected you forfeited the pot and all the money in it (including yours of course)
I don't know if my post was censored or if it got lost in cyberspace, but here it is again.
Collusion by college students doesn't worry me as much as the overseas gaming halls. I played in other online games and they had a huge advantage.
They come in every day and sit down with 500 to 2000 of there closest friends. They play hour after hour to figure out each and every advantage they have sitting in the same room AND how to avoid getting caught.
Now I haven't seen any evidence of this yet on Paradise, but be on the lookout. (They are all playing Age of Empires II on MSZone.)
anything is possible in this age of hi-tech hackers who are constantly figuring out way to rip-off you and not get caught... and believe me they are some where ,not noticed yet, on unsuspecting gaming online sites in your nearest cyperspace.
People have tried to explain all those quads by saying that there are so many tables playing for so many hours.
That doesn't explain the fact that last night on Paradise, on MY TABLE alone, there were four quads in a matter of three hours. I was lucky enough to have one of those quads, but something is wrong. Maybe all those Mafia conspiracies make sense after all.
I was testing the waters in a 10-20 Paradise game, and had ground out like 40 bb. Then all of a sudden I hit about five sets in less than half an hour! I have done this on numerous occassions at the lower limits but never in live play. Has anyone had similar experiences on PP?
If you have some snipe to make, I don't want to hear it.
To be fair, Jason, we were playing Omaha Hi/lo, where there are more cards and more players seeing the flop. That could account for some of it.
Then again, the other night playing holdem at the casino, I hit three flushes in a row. Other players not terribly happy with me, especially since all were on the river.
David
I've played Omaha house games before, and might not see quads for weeks. I just find it too weird sometimes.
I played in a small casino Saturday night for about 5 hours and there were 7 quads at my table (Texas hold'em). Just the cards... I've now dismissed the Paradise quads theorem even though I never believed it. There is absolutly no reason for them to give random people more quads than usual. If they wanted to give people hands, they could let them win with much less sensational hands that would draw little notice.
PM
.........
does anyone know of any good real money poker sites online?? besides planet poker and paradise poker?? and also, does anyone know if pokerspot.com is a good site?? there usually never seems to be too many people playing the real money tables, and it looks kind of suspicious...any input apreciated...-Mike
Pokerspot is a good and reputable site (I've received checks.) When truepoker.com comes online it looks to be a favorite of mine. Pokerspot is a great alternative until then.
Pokerman
Give Highlands Club a try. I have been there for almost two months now and love it.
Games are honest, soft, and money is there to be made.
Diane
ive tried highlands club and like the games but never enough players.games break up very quick
I was testing the waters in a 10-20 Paradise game, and had ground out like 40 bb. Then all of a sudden I hit about five sets in less than half an hour! I have done this on numerous occassions at the lower limits but never in live play. Has anyone had similar experiences on PP?
If you have some snipe to make, I don't want to hear it.
What do you expect to hear.
A 52-card deck will produce all kinds of "strange occurrences" for someone live or online.
One person's rush is another's bad run. A big run of sets for one person at the table means a really bad run of cards for the others at the same table. Live or online.
Posting observations like: "Oh my god I got By the way, on Planet Poker just a couple minutes ago I saw 2 straight flushes in 10 minutes. What does that tell you??
Nothing.
I have never seen wierd events happen at PP. I have logged in around 500hrs. I win at live games and on-line.
CV
I just won 3 consecutive tournaments and saw 4 quads in those 3 - I won any way. I know, and more sets than in playboy, hustler and penthouse.
I don't care what anyone says the hands are just much bigger on PP than in real life - maybe it is the way the deck in randomized of not randomized but a live dealer but the hands do run different.
Here come the flames and calling me names but I stick to my story.
Why does everyone point out whether they win or lose? Who doesn't win on this forum? If an ape typed in twoplustwo enough times on here, he could beat a 10-20 game. It is not rocket science. It is my guess the vast vast majority of people reading this forum beat both the live and internet games. The question is whether or not the RNG anomalies are true. My contention is that they are unintentional but there is no denying that they are there. Does that make the games less beatable-no. Just interesting that someone makes quads every fifteen minutes.
I just flopped Back to Back Quads (JJ's....KK's)on another new site,that also has this type of totally random shuffle.Ive played approx. 1500 hrs. a year for 6 years live and only logged 100 hrs of internet play and its never happened to me before but I feel that its just a normal ,albeit mind boggling,occurance that can and will happen.Several years ago I witnessed a man sit down in a live game and on the very first hand he hit a Bad Beat Jackpot(the big end) for 20,000$ and before the big blind got to him (and before he got paid for the first)he got the big end on another one and hit it for another 15,000$.The Casino was San Manuel.People hit the lotto every day.Sh-t Happens!
The openmindedness regarding this issue is astounding:
Rounder: "I don't care what you say..." JV: "there is no denying that there are..."
It's called marketing. Inexperienced and stupid players think poker skill is all about making big hands. That's where all the excitement is for them. That's why so many home games feature wild card games.
Online, when someone makes quads, people complement the guy with "nh" or "vnh", like he's done something. In the casinos, as I'm sure you know, one often has to endure pointless stories of how some grinning fool hit a monster and got to raise and re-raise until the cows came home. That's "real" poker. That's what Paradise is selling.
Tom D
So, are you saying that they have conspired to make big hands happen more often.
Isn't it obvious? Why, Elvis himself told me exactly that.
JV,
Yes I am, if you change the word "conspired to "chose". Isn't it great fun to ooo 'n aah all the magical hands, and order a round of virtual drinks?
Tom D
No offense but your allega tions are absurd to the point of being downright silly.Doing something as you suggest is tantamount to working at FortKnox and conspiring to steal paper clips.
Bite me.
I can now assume the rumor I heard is true.That was you that was driving down the road and rolled down the window and stuck your head out to get some air,and was arrested for MOONING ).( See ya at the next MENSA meeting.lol
Let's slow down a minute fellas. The question as to a purely random ordering of the deck is legitimate. I have six credit hours of statistics, but that was almost three decades ago. Is there an interested reader who can devine a test (I recall a "chi" test) of randomness based upon the cards we can see? And who would have the luxury of time to apply it?
This constant speculation without a statistical basis leads nowhere.
This has been done based on the board cards. The problem (for some) is that Paradise does not release hole cards.
The board cards are random.
Then the conspiracy theorists can assert that the hole cards are assigned in a deliberate fashion, and defy anyone to demonstrate they aren't. Do the lights in their refrigerators REALLY go off when the door closes?
Posted by: Chris Villalobos (chris@freeroll.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 November 2000, at 9:11 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 November 2000, at 9:25 p.m.
Posted by: JV
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 November 2000, at 10:11 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Revelle
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 November 2000, at 10:40 p.m.
Posted by: HoJu
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 November 2000, at 2:06 p.m.
Posted by: Tom D (tomdv@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 November 2000, at 10:55 p.m.
Posted by: JV
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 November 2000, at 12:42 a.m.
Posted by: Yeik
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 November 2000, at 8:09 a.m.
Posted by: Tom D (tomdv@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 November 2000, at 8:15 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Revelle
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 November 2000, at 8:27 a.m.
Posted by: Tom D (tomdv@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 November 2000, at 9:36 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Revelle
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 November 2000, at 10:20 a.m.
Posted by: Jake
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 November 2000, at 10:54 a.m.
Posted by: Talbot
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 November 2000, at 3:06 p.m.
Posted by: Jake
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 November 2000, at 6:08 p.m.
Tonight I played at Paradise for 3 hours.
Within the first 30 minutes, i raised with TT, got two callers. The flop came K-K-K. Well to make a long story short, one of my two opponents had KQ. Heh. I just commented:
"Home of the quads" (referring to Paradise of course).
Two hours later, I get second nut flush on flop. One of my two opponents is holding AA and one A is already there on the flop. Turn card = A :-) And I comment:
"Home of the quads..."
TWO HANDS LATER i am holding QJ, flop comes JJx and river is the last J. LOL.
Yeah right. This is a very good shuffling algorithm. No bias.
I had an account at Paradise & Planet - I just pulled my account and closed it on Paradise. Something just doesn't seem right over there, I don't know what. Meanwhile, Planet seems pretty normal. For those that have played on both, how do you feel?
Planet seems more like a real game and the cards seems to come out the same as in live play for me. At Paradise its full of sets, quads, and str8 flushes it is crazy. Having played on both sites I can say that planet is a better place to play the game it seems fair and not rigged. Another site I like is Highlands the layout is the same as planet and game there seems fair also. Having played with you doc on planet I know you have had great sucess there how did you do on paradise? Good luck
i've lost all my 5 buy-ins at paradise.
Doc,
I have logged 210 hours on 20-40 Planet and am up just over 1 big bet an hour.
On Paradise, I initially lost $2500 in 180 hours earlier in the year playing mostly 10-20 Omaha - a game in which my skills leave a lot to be desired. I have played there about 20 hours in the last few months and have somehow managed to break even during that time. Everyone keeps talking about Quads etc on Paradise, obviously I haven't hit many of those:)
There is no doubt about it: The games on Paradise are tougher than Planet.
You guys who are getting killed on Paradise may want to give Planet a try.
I'm not 100% sure the games are tougher on Paradise. It may very well be, but good poker players are willing to gravitate to easier arenas, and since the internet is such a transient place, as opposed to moving from Vegas to L.A, I would think this would have happened sooner rather than later.
So, given that, that still leaves some slightly disturbing results by several winning players on Paradise, that are not seen on Planet. Coincidence? maybe. Still better players on Paradise, and these guys haven't moved to Planet yet? maybe.
I don't know.....but all I know is that I'm not comfortable on Paradise, but I am on Planet.
WELCOME to HI-TECH hackers paradise my hacker licked friends
I uninstalled my PP software after losing 5 buy in's in short order playing 4-8 to .50-$1. I'm no pro, but I am a relatively consistent winner in live games at 3-6 to 8-16. I was pounded over and over at PP. It was no fun and boring to see hundreds of hands show up at group 8 or below and then see your rare Group 1,2,3 hands cracked 90% of the time. I'll never go back.
This morning I was looking around PP and spotted Angelena playing at a table and decided to come in and see what was going on.
WOW - talk about aggressive - this gal it the real thing. I enjoyed the meeting - I did feel sorry for the other 8 mutts at the table they didn't stand a chance. We only had one hand together but the rest were way out classed. Sorry I lost my connection and something came up so I couldn't resume my place at the table.
Ive watched the 20-40 alot and Angelina is seriously one of the most aggressive players. Ill get you eventually my pretty, and your little dog ToTo too ;-)
Angelina (or Izmet) is one of the toughest on PP. If he's on my left, I usually find another table.
Izmet, Angelina, her boyfriend, and about 5-7 others from Slovenia play at Paradise. (Rumor is they all have some relation to the Fekali's.)
I am always very careful when I get in a hand with any of them.
Just make sure you have you have the goods when you go up against an aggressive layer then let their aggression do them in. :-)
That simple, huh?
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
Ljubljana, Slovenia
http://www.fekali.com/angelina
Sorry I spelled your name wrong.
And yeah it is pretty simple - If you know what you are doing.
The secret is to play a little tigher, go to the river with about anything of value, never bluff the river, but value bet your marginal hands, as she'll call with a broad range of holdings.
What are the minimum specs to play on line poker? I want to buy a new PC to play on line poker only. What is the cheapest brand that would do the job.?
Coyote
Anything above a pentium 200. 64MB ram. Video card with 4+megs RAM. 17 -19" monitors are nice. Internet connection 56K or above.
Should be able to get a system to play poker for $300 or less if you want a used one.
Just about any modern computer should do. I bought a year old laptop with a Celeron 300 Mhz, and Paradise Poker runs just fine on it. I also have an older 200 Mhz Pentium II and that works just fine as well. I would buy a large amount of RAM, but I don't think it's really necessary if you are just going to play online poker.
- Andrew
I was playing in the PokerSpot free roll tournament yesterday, and I started to think about the extra element the precise timing of the limit increases brings to the game.
For instance I had a marginal raise/fold decision in the big blind, and decided to fold on the grounds that the blinds were going up in less than 30 seconds. Also at the same time, someone on the other side of the table had started taking their maximum 19.5 seconds on every decision. Presumably they had worked out that they were going to get their next blind at the increased limit, and wanted to make sure as many other people got there’s at that level as well.
I just wondered what other people think of this new element of tournament play. Well maybe not completely new, but clearly much more important than in offline tournaments.
Anyone on 2+2 want to get into a $20 PP tournament ASAP? Post a response here ASAP. my PP name is Ashworth. I am going in a live tournament in < 2 hours, so we should do this now.
Derrick
I have to go... maybe tomorrow.
Derrick
If a two plus two tourney starts,I would love to play.My paradise name is Bob Loblaw.
Some time back Paradise Poker offered to pay Ed Hills expenses to vist the poker operation. Last I had heard he was taking some other experts to check out the systems. Did this trip ever take place? Anyone have any news on the status of Ed Hills disagreement with Paradise?
I saw him playing back on paradise about a month ago, I wonder if he had better results this time on paradise. I am not sure if he went to Costa Rica but Ed seems like a class act.
Paradise did indeed offer to pick up the entire tab, both airfare and lodging.
Nolan has been very uncommunative and has apparantly lost interest.
I do not possess the computer knowledge required to accomplish anything, other than taking Paradise off for a free vacation.
Ed Hill
As I do posess some computer knowledge, I'd be happy to accompany you (or make the trip myself), if ParadisePoker is willing to extend their offer to me.
---
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World Since 1389!
Albania, Slovenia, Europe
http://www.fekali.com
Izmet:
Why don't you contact Paradise directly since they may not be looking at all these posts.
Ed and Izmet I hope you guys contact paradise and maybe check out there operation. I think if they are legit they should let the 2+2 players at least see there operation. With all that said I believe that they may not extend the offer now there player base has grown and it is not in there best interest.
Maybe we're missing an obvious choice as to who could accompany you on the trip. Perhaps Mark the K could design an analysis program which could be run at the Paradise site without removing any hand information from their premises?
PS to Mark: If this turns into a new business for you (verifying the legitimacy of internet gambling sites), just cut in your idea man for 10% :)
PPS to everyone: I do not know Mark the K, Ed Hill, or anyone at Paradise Poker or any other online gambling site.
I don't know why traveling there would be necessary to verify the general consensus that their software allows way too many big hands and miracle cards on the river. A thorough and competent mathematical analysis could be made via a computer without leaving home.
IIRC they didn't offer to pay his expenses, they just offered to give him a tour if he came down to Costa Rica. Of course, I could be wrong.
- Andrew
I remember reading that Paradaise would pay. There was lots of activity and talk on who would go. As I recall Nolan Dola was going as well as some computer expert.
Your memory is A ok Joe Blow. I remember a great deal of discussion about even worst case scenario they would get a free vacation.
Here is the article posted by Nolan Dalla. There is no mention of who is paying for the trip. It may be that Paradise was paying, but it is unclear from the message.
- Andrew
...That´s easy, just sit down and wait. He´ll eliminate himself anyway when he gets on tilt after loosing a big hand. I saw it yesterday. :-)
No, seriously. I played the PokerSpot tourney yesterday (LI HE). It was fun playing, and I really got exited when a guy came to my table who named himself "Rounder". Mike, was this you or just a fake?
Since my wife and I played this tourney together on our computer and she did the typing while I was laying in bed , she didn´t want to do much writing. I (nickname: Etowah)just got the chance to ask Rounder whether he post at 2+2, but after a short answer he was eliminated and gone. No chance to learn anything. Bad luck.
Anyway, I like the tourney structure they use over there. Limits increase slowly, so you have time to PLAY poker. I prefer them to the PP-tourneys. Just a few comments:
- It seems that nobody wants to use the advanced action. I can´t see too many reasons for it. Of course sometimes you get a hand you want to make a steal and decide to muck since the player to your right entered the pot, but it seems to me that nobody ever uses the check/fold button. Most of the time they even wait 10 seconds until they responde. This slows the game pretty much down.
- For a long time, we didn´t know wheter it was a freeroll or a buy in tourney. It was scheduled to be a 15$ buy in, but I looked at the cashier and after 1/2 hour there were still the 30 bucks I won in a freeroll tourney last weak. So I was pretty sure that it was a freeroll, but most of the players thought they had to pay for it.
- When we were down to 3 or 2 players I recognized that it wasn´t only the players who took a very long time for their decissions. The "shuffling" of the cards took a very looooooong time, too. Playing at PokerSpot would be even more fun, when the software would be as fast as on PP.
- Anyway, I like the tourneys at PokerSpot. I hope they will spread buy in tourneys regulary soon.
Just my thoughts
M.A.
Probably not him "Rounder" is probably a pretty popular nickname online.
I was goofing around a Truepoker.com last night. Quads hit 2 times within 15 minutes, and there was a guy named "Rounder" at the table.
He didn't pitch a fit so I don't think it was him.
Hey I never "pitch a fit" - didn't go on tilt at poker spot eigther. Just spent 1 hour 10 min and had only one playable hand AA - 3 handed 2 seat all in pre flop calling my raise and sI won the side pot with a set of A's but the all in made a straight so my only win was just a side pot with a set of A's - I' hope to do better thnight in the 1st paid tournament.
Of the 36 hands I played 23 had a 2, 3 or 4 usually together.
Hope to see you guys there top night.
PS I don't play on true poker.
Just giving you crap
IMHO, as long as the tournaments are free, the powers that be at PokerSpot may conduct the tournaments as they see fit.
However, they appear to be beginning normal "fee" tournaments -- but as of the time of this post, haven't released any information on prize structure or percentages.
Is this a normal occurrence with casinos/card room tournaments?
Mike
Not really - they usually know the %'s prior to the tournament - I'm giving PS a break as they are new at it for $15 what do you want. I would expect 1st to pay in the 38% range and drop to 2-3% for 10th place.
Just guessing but that is pretty standard for a 100+ tourney.
Hi, Rounder --
I've actually been very impressed by PokerSpot so far; I don't want to come across as griping for the sake of griping.
I find PokerSpot's multi-table tourneys are way better than Paradise's one-table shindigs; IIRC, Paradise had their blind information and payout structure posted on their web site even before they started running the tournaments.
I just think they need to be "up front" with the information.
Mike
Hi again,
Let's start a PP tourney ASAP. Respond ASAP and we will pick a table.
Derrick (PP Alias is Ashworth)
Tourneys are delayed for some reason.
Derrick
Question to the veterans on Paradise Poker. In Hold Em, in both full ring to Heads Up, $10-$20 to $20-$40, who are the toughest players around and who are the "yummies" you like in the game?
You know what they say, if you can't spot the sucker in the first five minutes . . . .
I play those games regularly and I think the tough players are Last Chance,Bobcards,Flopoholic,Angelina, and King34.The suckers are many including myself and I wont name names there.
Well, here's a cookie. This is a list of some of the better players on the site at full table 10/20+ games. I haven't been playing them for too long so I'm sure the list isn't totally acurate.
Andrew1, Angelina, Big D, Calm_Wolf, FantasyPot, GypoGenius, HAZEL, KBeighley, MadMan, NewDayRising, Oskar, Piesang, Razoo, Skittles, The Balrog, abdul, afool, alfonso, andylad, badbeat12, bobcards, candy, erin9, fernr, longshot7, lucygoosy, mssaint, rik14, top gun one, wilbur
I don't play paradise but I know 'gooch' from live play - he's one savvy player as is raiserup.
I ve watched the 10/20 to 20/40 games for the last few weeks ( I didnt play just watched) and it looks like from what I saw there is quite a few good players.Ive only watched this for a few weeks but these are the ones I consider good --King34,Flopholic,Jennifer,Fanatsy Pot, GypoGenus,Angelina,beldog,NETU,belrog,Bob Loblow,Bobcards,Kbeighly, and Oskar.What do the regulars who play with these players think?I am on the right track?I do not have the money yet to play these limits but hopefully in a few months I will work my way up.I am trying to keep a list of players to respect or avoid.
I dont think you should include bobcards on your list I have seen him make one too many bad plays. As for Last Chance he is too aggressive for his own good I think he makes money but his swings must be huge.
ACBob,
I have watched a lot, and I agree with the names I've seen in the lists above. One missing is GrannieMae, what ever happened to her? She killed the games I watched.
One thing to consider:
Given their small re-buy allowances, anyone who you see at 20-40 month after month is winning, just go there every one-two weeks evening hours when the games are rolling, check out who is still able to play. After a while you will have a list without watching too much.
One more point: I play at lower stakes and every time I build up a nice win over a week or two, I then lose most of it to incredible runs from hell. I always cash out the card and cash to 'go home a winner', and this is for fun for me, not my living, but I wonder what the heck is going on. I have done this about 10 times, and I have analysed the cards which I play: First I thought I was loosening up after I won some. I am not. This week I felt they had their own shills playing me, people would get a river full house holding J3o, one guy even rivered a str8flsh to beat my turn nut flush, he was holding Tdxo and in the middle. Until Paradise posts full hands (not just the flops) I am stopping for good. Until I see the full hands (with no names and no hand numbers)for me to crunch, I won't play online.
Mark the K
^
mark said: "I play at lower stakes and every time I build up a nice win over a week or two, I then lose most of it to incredible runs from hell. I always cash out the card and cash to 'go home a winner', and this is for fun for me, not my living, but I wonder what the heck is going on. I have done this about 10 times, and I have analysed the cards which I play: First I thought I was loosening up after I won some. I am not. This week I felt they had their own shills playing me, people would get a river full house holding J3o, one guy even rivered a str8flsh to beat my turn nut flush, he was holding Tdxo and in the middle"
this is EXACTLY what has been happening to me, several times too. i am through with paradise. i had been defending them against all the too many quads attacks and so forth, but im sick of it. i am going to stick to highlands and try planet poker. i really hope paradise will zip the anonymous pocket cards to mark k cause id love to be reassured that paradise is on the up and up. then i could just figure out someway to adjust my play there to account for losing to ridiculous draws. perhaps it is the only game in the world where the best way to play is loose passive? haha..
Was is cancelled tonight.
They had a complete power outage at thier ISP. So they say.
Weird that it happened Just as they were seating people at tables.
They said there ISP had a TOTAL power outage, yet I was able to ping the server THE WHOLE TIME.
Weird...I'll be there tonight though ;)
I just got done reading his articles on Internet poker. Quite humerous, he seems so perturbed at internet poker. Like it shouldn't even be called poker.
I would say plenty of others probably agree.
My question is why is he wasting his time and effort writing about golf clubs and the internet. It seems almost obsessive/compulsive or something.
The first article he wrote was fine, his opinion. The second article was ... well ... funny ... like he didn't quite convince himself on the first article ;)
Yeah, Yeah, Badger is a wonderful and respected RGP poker player. Well I think he has a slight problem with online poker.
Whats the URL?
http://www.playwinningpoker.com/
Badger was a really nice guy to correspond with over the last few years - when he was running well - I think he is having a disasterous year and maybe he is on long term tilt - I hope his fortunes change and he starts winning again.
I agree completely. The pressures of losing, even if the money belongs to someone else can take its toll on almost anybody. If Badger isn't able to turn it around, he just may need a break from this sometimes brutal game.
MASON: is this STEVE BADGER the omaha/8 champ with 2 WSOP braclets or someone else?
/
On Paradise, the Heads Up play for holdem appears to be interesting shootouts.
"LastChance", despite his trash talk, appears to be very successful. Relentless raising on the button (I have never, never seen him call or muck from the button)and extreme aggression postflop.
High variance but is this the formula to successful play Heads Up or has he just been riding a streak?
Bob
Here I go again, I have asked before but gotten no response:
I analysed the 4+ million hands (flops.zip) and they look ok, as I have posted -- many time -- here in support of your card randomness. I feel, though, without the full hands to run through my programs, I may inadvertently be a dupe/shill.
Please help us all: How about publishing 4-5 million run of full hands, no names, to allow real analysis?
This would help you if the games are completely honest.
Mark
*
Mark they wont give it to you there is something seriously wrong with the game at paradise. I was doing well in the begining at pp then had the run from hell and my game stayed consistent. I have gone to 2 of there competitors and have the same results as in live play without the big swings and what seems to be a fair game to me.
Personally - I think the games are honest from PP stand point not not withstanding the collusion that most certainly happens between people - my only observation is an inordenately high amount of quads (and to a lesser degree sets) when compared to live games - I think one of the posters has hit it on the head by detailing how live dealers seperate pairs and sets prior to shuffeling.
I will continue to play in tournaments and the occasional live game -
Rounder,
I mostly believe they are honest too, but I have two problems:
1. I have been supporting their posted flops.zip (4+ million hands), but they do not mean everything compared to all cards from all players. Then I could see if quads do happen more than they should statistically; I could see if there were some people who HAD TO HAVE HACKED IN to be playing the cards they were playing.
2. Microsoft's site was compromised two weeks ago. The Republican Nat'l committee's site was hacked last week. PP is a site where the benefit of hacking is very high. I have played in some games over the past few months where there was a player or two who were so 'lucky' that I was very suspicious. I have been asked by some Poker Luminaries "don't they have measures [not only Paradise] to prevent this?" I ask in return now: "Doesn't Microsoft? Doesn't the RNC?"
Maybe when those 10 winning LV players get cleaned out by a team of hackers they will scream loudly, but then it will be too late.
A full posting of an allthecards.zip would put this baby to rest -- for me anyway -- for now.
Mark the K
PS Everyone be careful of your passwords, by the way...if they not tough to crack...well you know what'll happen to you, right?
ROUNDER=== when you say collusion, does that mean three pranksters sitting around the kitchen table, each with computers logged on to PLANET POKER or PLANET PARADISE observing each others hands and subtely whipsawing everybody at the table.
Sure this could be one way - I heard of a group in Korea of 9 guys in a computer lab doing the same thing. It has to be happening cuz there is no way to stop it. Hacking is also a possibility.
NINE GUYS IN KOREA PULLING THAT B.S.... thats another reason I'LL use internet sites FOR FREE. to keep my skills sharpened to all different types of players, funny money only. Can you imagine thoses NINE cluster-f---ks with my credit card number...nooo freakin way.
Mark:
Access to the hands would be extremely desirable and benificial but there are some considerations.
The first thing is to protect the players who played the hands. Paradise has an obligation to keep their cards private. The only way to accomplish this is to hide their names AND the hand number.
Publishing the data, without names and hand numbers, would be benificial for statistical analyses, both for game integrity and many other academic analyses. The data could no longer be verifyable as the actual hands being played. It would therefore do nothing to satisfy those who belief there is something fishy.
In effect there is a huge catch 22.
Publish the hands and Paradise risks the integrity of their game by not protecting their players.
Publish the hands, hiding game numbers and players names and Paradise is then accused of changing the data.
While I truly wish the data was available, I have to support Paradise's decision not to make available anything other that the public cards.
Jodder,
Publish the hands without the names, and with the seats scrambled (and anon.) Checks could then be made on the veracity of the hands AND the stats.
Mark
Why can't Paradise post hands with hand numbers and the winning cards for hands with a showdown. Since the winning cards were already shown this shouldn't compromise anything. And they could do it in a format that's easy to analyze without nick's.
Something like: hand#:b1b2b3b4b5:h1h2 Where bn are board cards and hn are the winning hole cards. Lack of hole cards for a hand would indicate that there was no showdown.
This would only be 20 bytes per hand or less, and should compress down to almost nothing. At 5 million hands/month this would amount to maybe 30Mbytes/month.
I believe that if Paradise is running a truly random game and posted this data monthly all of the rumors would stop. And if it's not a random game....
dak
Exactly,
And I would have them analysed and posted in minutes.
Mark
Has anyone had any experiences with the Pokerspot cashier function? Central questions being
- response time - accountability
Just wondering as they are starting buyin tournaments tonight.
Yhey had their 1st buy in tournament Fri night and are planning more there are 2 this weekend at 2pm CST.
Today is a $15 BI limit HE and tomorrow $15BI 1/2 PL O/8 - 1/2 HE.
The cashier function is very fast and seems OK to me.
With all the negative information on internet poker, I am still playing for one reason...I am winning. My original buy in is mine and im up over one big bet per hour at 3-6 hold'em. Do I believe there is collusion? yes Do I believe there is hacking ? maybe Do i believe shuffling patterns are different than live games? yes Do I believe shuffling is honest? yes So I realize there are bigger hands and I adjust accordingly.
There are real players on PP that do not play the best cards,do not make correct pot odd calls,go to far with there hands...ect..
I play because I win and I will play untill I prove myself wrong.
I know, but I can't help feeling cheated when I am losing. In live play, I have no problem with a loss, but the thought that I might be getting scammed irritates the hell out of me. But the money keeps there.
If there is a re-vote, you get my vote for president. Not only did you do the initial analysis of PP hands, but now you have the foresight to pressure PP into releasing full hands (clearly the problem). I too have had rushes from heavens and runs from hell. I don't play wild, and I am much better than the players I play against. I don't understand how I can win millions of big bets one day and then lose them the next. I am winning, but I can't stand the long uncontollable periods of losing. I have played many hours at 20-40 in the casinos and haven't seen anything like these swings. Unfortunately I am not able to quit internet poker because I need the money. But keep up the fight.
Jv,
I am President of a Software company, and was FAIRLY (hehe) elected 3 times to my local School Board here in the 'wilds' of surburban NJ. Trust me, I would do a better job than either of these idiots, but then my father was not President nor a Senator-for-life from Tenn. But all joking aside, thanks for the kind words, and also, do not hold your breathe about hand posts from anyone.
Mark
Aside from Paradise where are the most players and clean games ???
planet and then highlands ,in that order
Why are there so many still at PP id the games are not all clean ?? Are they all props ???
Who says the games aren't clean? Who says the games at Planet and Highlands are clean? I've lost money at Planet and won money at Paradise. Does that mean anything?
- Andrew
Don't you guys realise that every time you make an unsubstantiated allegation about Paradise and Andrew Prock refutes that allegation, the Paradise bots (unknown to Andrew) pay him off big time.
The result of this will eventually be the publication of Andrew's book "Winning Online Poker" (with a picture of Andrew sitting by his computer, looking smug, on the cover). The book will contain a number of "non-trivial" errors pointed out by Sklansky causing AP to defect to RGP. Others will point out different erors but Sklansky will say that these aren't big errors and raising calling and folding would all be OK. We will all then be very confused lose our money on Paradise and start making unsubstantiated allegations of cheating which Andrew Prock will refute......
Andrew, I have to say you have been a strong defender of paradise poker and about a month ago you said "YOU ARE SERIOUSLY QUESTIONING YOUR TENURE THERE". I f someone criticizes paradise you have some smartass remark to make or put some spin that the person doesnt know how to play poker even though he/she is a winning player for many years. The remark you made a month ago suprised me now you are for them again stop being a hypocrite and make up your mind if you can, if you cant then stop debating with people on this subject and stick with something that you can stay strong and firm on.
n/t
mike,
I think you are referring to this article. I apologize if my smartass remark in this article was taken as a true representation of my position regarding Paradise. Sometimes when I make smartass remarks they are neither smart alleky enough, or asinine enough for everyone to pick up on the sarcasm.
In the future I will try to talk fully out of the left side of my mouth to avoid this confusion.
Thanks for the feedback.
- Andrew
.
In some vague order.
Planet Poker: Usually got most games and limits going.
Highlands. Usually got a couple of good Hold’em games, 3/6 and 10/20 typically.
Poker.com. Has the softest games IMHO. Usually 2/4 sometimes 5/10.
PokerSpot: Usually find someone playing heads up with Kidpoder. Often get some good games just before or after they have had a tournament.
Dragon Poker: Sometimes has a game going, not necessarily Hold’em.
Delata: Often seems to be a 4/8 Hold’em game going. I haven’t played here yet.
PokerLive: I haven’t played here. There never seems to be any games going.
4KnightsPoker: Just started. Haven’t seen a game going here.
Others: Haven’t found them yet.
Clean games?
Well if it’s the sites cheating you that ones paranoid about, then you will probably feal happier sticking to the lager sites. For instance at Planet you’ve got Mike C to throw rotten tomatoes at if your unhappy.
On the other hand if ones more paranoid about other players cheating you, then the smaller sites might well be better. Certainly there are fewer games to Police.
On the quad watch 3 quads in one oround of the table... including back to back quads.
sean
HEARD about the nine Koreans doing the quads in their secure lab in Korea.
Could you explain the lab. You have got to be kidding me and how did you hear this. I am winning at PP on about 100 hrs of play at 3/6 but you are scaring me.
I am winning also. I got dealt quad 2's the other day. when i first started i played much too loose and lost my initial deposit. then i tightened up and became much more aggressive with good hands and have been doing Fairly well.
RELAX you all, just and unconfirmed rumor going around this site, and other places. THINK about those poor disponded souls you pulled a bad beat against with pocket dueces. QUADraphobia is catching everywhere,he he he...........O'l nightstick shall return with updates.....
has anyone had trouble receiving payments from poker.com lately? I have been waiting for a cheque for quite some time and the site seems to be void of players.
I have waited as long as 20 days for checks but they always paid. Email them at support@poker.com and ask them to do a trace.
I got so aggravated with their payout delays that I closed my account. Not only would I wait up to a month for a check, but everytime I wrote to support, they told me the check had been sent the day before!!!!! The postmarks NEVER matched the day they claimed the checks had been sent.
Maybe the mail in Oz is just slow - where is poker.com located - I can imagine if it is Costa Rica the mail from there to Australia might take some time.
That may be, but I object to the way they handle the long pay period. If it is going to take 4 - 5 weeks, players should be advised, so that they do not compromise financial arrangements they may have made based on the 2 -3 week time period advertised.
Every check I requested from Poker.com (about 5 over a year) resulted in numerous e-mails to their support. Twice they gave me a mailing date of a check from one spot on it's way to another spot, which then had to be mailed to the states. I was so annoyed, that I complained to Chuck Weinstock because at the time they were advertisers on this site.
I also don't think they take the all-in policy very seriously. Because their connection was generally poor, at times, they would allow 4 to 5 all ins, to players who were clearly abusing. In fact, there were discussions between players which showed that they did not even understand that all-ins were to protect them from disconnections. They thought the all-ins were to be used for stratigic advantage. I emailed poker.com about these problems, and always got a polite form letter back. Despite the unbelievably live 10 -20 game that went off here and there, I decided Poker.com was not worth the trouble.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Poker.com part of a larger gambling site, where poker is a very small percentage of their business? They just don't seem to have the same kind of commitment to sound business practice that Paradise and some others have.
I could be mistaken but isn't poker.com the site that had its President disappear with their money ??
Bob Masternak
THIS is why i like casino play my beleagured friends... you see three and one half rack in your seat... you pick up 3-1/2 rack and walk to cashier walking ( walking is good for you than sitting for hours complaining about QUADS) Then you put 3-1/2 rack at the cashier window, she smiles at you because of your winning session... she counts out the crisp greenbacks professionally, and promptly, you toke her stick that wad of green in your pocket and then think about those sad-sacks who are still waiting for there cashouts at poker.com...yea nothing like playing poker on the internet... what a life.
OR maybe our nine little buddies in Korea had something to do with it.
I got paid every dime I was owed by Poker.com, albeit late. I have not had a single problem getting paid in a timely fashion by Paradise, Planet, Delta, Dragon, Poker Live, and Poker Spot.
thanks for all the replies guys I feel better about my money now.
I still very strongly that Highlands Club is the best site out there today in terms of good, loose, honest games.
(sorry if I sound like a broken record on this topic)
It is a Holdem site primarily with an occasional Omaha game. So those of you that play Stud would be disappointed....but for Holdem it has the best games right now of any online site (and I have tried them ALL)
Still a small player base, but site is gaining new players every day. I have been playing there exclusively since 9/16 and have done very well financially.
Excellent customer service, immediate responses to all questions and they readily attack the allin abuse so prevalent online. I have seen no evidence of collusion. (and believe me I am watching after some bad experiences on Paradise)
Come try it out and see for yourself. I play there regularly.
Diane from Green Bay
Diane, your posting does seem like an advertisement for Hightlands Club. Are you one of the players who was given a "freeroll" by any chance?
If you aren't one of those players then I guess your motivation is something else. If the site is so great and such a money making gold mine for you then why would you want players who read poker message boards and newsgroups to play at the site and make the games tougher to beat ?
Bob Masternak
I play highlands and agree it has the best customer service and cashouts of any site,but the software is not even close to paradise.Paradise is much faster,easier to read,and nicer to play.I also agree that the variance on paradise is much higher than Highlands.Keep in mind on highlands ,usually in the 20-40 or 10-20 you are up against world class players ,such as texasdolly -Dolye Brunson ,or russ -Phil Helmouth.How can you beat these players in the long run.Sure they are not all world class players there but if these pros are in the game you have no potion of switching to a different table because there isnt enough games.But on paradise I am sure there are world class players there but if you are outclassed you have the option of switching tables.
Yah, keep quite Diane, don't wont Highlands filling up with 2+2 rocks :{(}
SOUNDS like a commercial ploy to persuade disappointed or paraniod PLANET POKER and PARADISE customers and alternate site to play in... besides this is the first time I heard about _this__site on twoplustwo, sounds suspicious to me.
There are two good reasons I can think of why Diane might be telling us about Highlands, and none of them have to do with her being paid to advertise for the site. (1) She might just be being friendly, telling people she interacts with on this site to come check out an I-poker site she considers good, without considering her any financial gain or loss coming from her post. (2) She might think getting the word out here will attract more players, both good and bad, so that there is a constant 24/7 high limit game going on there. This might potentially make the site even more rewarding for her.
Personally, I can't see why people on here bang their heads against the wall playing in the hyper aggressive relatively tight Paradise games when they can play in much easier, lower variance games elsewhere on the internet. Paradise's superior connection and # of games offered isn't enough to sway me to play there anymore. I remember one player on here actually insist in a post that in order to make money in the I-poker world you had to learn how to beat the Paradise games. Nothing could be further from the truth, in my opinion.
My response to all of you and especially to Mason:
I am not a paid mouthpiece for Highlands or anyone. I have contributed to this forum for quite a long time and have made many friends here. I feel I have built up a reputation for honesty and integrity that should not be challenged with these cheap shots.
I speak my mind and feel my comments about Highlands and my positive experiences there are no different than the many other trip reports I have posted here. Check the archives.
One point in earlier posts was correct. I distrust Paradise. I have seen too many wierd things happen there. But rather than trash Paradise, I focus on things I like.
Diane posts trip reports and *gushes* when she finds something she likes. NO different than my previous posts about Horseshoe Tunica or the Peppermill tourneys, or my TOC experiences. Again, check the archives for my many posts.
I resent the comments regarding my posts being a commercial. Hetron was right. I simply enjoy the site and want to see it succeed and grow its player base. There are NOT enough players yet to keep it going 24/7. Base is growing, but not fast enough.
I started playing at Highlands Club on 9/16 with my OWN MONEY. Nobody elses money. My personal credit card. I have built my balance up steadily and have cashed out some nice checks.
I am not a paid mouthpiece for anyone. I just share my positive experiences with those I feel have become friends through 2+2 and rgp.
One final note.....I got a piece of the Highlands Club jackpot today, made $417 on the players share. I like the site because players are friendly, lots of chat back and forth, loose games, and I have made money there. Plain and simple. No hidden agendas.
Diane from Green Bay.
I have seen many posts from Diane, mostly on R.G.P but occasionaly on two plus two. Her net presence has demonstrated to me that she is someone of integrity.
I played 250 hours at planet then tried Paradise. I played 20 hours there lately but most of the time the games were good with 4 or 5 soft spots. If the games were steady at this level I would probably win close to my rate at planet. I have played (very shortly) once in a tough game that just could not happen at planet. And yes the perspective of playing two games at once would outperform my planet rate. The only constant difference I have seen is that the best players in the game are better than the best ones in planet games. I guess the paradise challenge is to not lose money against these opponents.
It certainly does seem like an advertisement. It could be one more thing though. It's possible that she is bitter about an incident she had at Paradise or Planet. It's clear the software at Highlands just doesn't measure up, and it won't likely improve in the near future. I'm not getting paid to say this, but Paradise and Planet are clearly superior to Highlands, no question.
Planet & Highlands use the same software, only the graphics are different.
Yes planet and Highlands use the same software. Its extremely irritating when you are playing at both sites. You go to you Highland game, and you automatically leave your Planet game. You leave your Highland game and you leave your Planet game. It seems almost imposable to start a Planet game when you are already paying at Highlands.
Essentially when your are running both clients they start to interfere with each other, sharing the same processes and generally being a pain.
Diane:
Besides your posts constantly telling us how wonderful Highlands is, we have also had some others. If this is your opinion, then we have no problem with it. But if you are being freerolled or have some other relationship with them then these posts amount to nothing more than advertisements, and posts are not the proper place for advertisements on this forum.
So if you don't mine, just state that you are only a player and then you will be free to voice your opinions and praise Highlands (or any other site for that matter) all you want. However, if your relationship is more than just a player, let's make your above post the last on this topic.
Mason Malmuth
Also why is it the first time I have heard about Highlands on this "SITE". Been reading this site for two years and started posting threads about six months ago and this is the first time I heard this, sounds like freebie advertising to me Mason. LIKE Rounder said about the "9 Koreans in their lab in Korea going hack crazy probably add Highlands to their hacker list, is this a certified rumor ROUNDER ???
Sounds like a commercial ploy from Highlands to the disappointed PARADISE players and PLANET POKER, sounds like suspicious enticement.
if it looks like i over responded to your thread i apologize, took three times to make thread appear on the screen and now all of them appear srewball technology for you.
Mason I have played at Highlands since June 6, the 1st day. A few weeks ago I read a post from Diane in Green Bay praising highlands. The day before ,chatting at the table she was talking about Green Bay Packers so I put 2 & 2 together and thought it was her. I was playing while reading 2+2 and I said "nice post on 2+2" she said how did you know? I reminded her about the Packers & she said very good. I play with her often & I can assure you she is not a shill for highlands. I think she is just a nice person !! What else can I say?
I've said this before and I'll say it again. The purpose of these forums is to have serious discussions of poker in a professional manner, and to have a little fun. If Diane or anyone for that matter wants to share their opinions, pro or con, with us of various Internet sites that's fine. But when they put their opinions up in such a way that they read like blantant advertisements I'm going to question them. By doing so (and continuing to do so) we should be able to keep these forums vibrant.
For your information, we get more than our share of blatant advertising. These include on line casinos and systems that are "guaranteed" to make you lots of money. When I see them they just get deleted.
We have already had several other posts of a similar nature praising Highlands. The word is out that they are giving freerolls to some players. I don't know for sure if this is true, but I suspect that it is. Therefore, I will either delete these posts or ask what I believe are appropriate questions.
If Diane or anyone else for that matter takes offense to this, I suggest that when making these type of posts they should qualify exactly what their relationship is with the Internet site. In this case, all Diane had to say was "I am not affiliated in any way with Highlands and I am not getting any form of freeroll from them, etc., but in my opinion ..." Furthermore, she should be more specific in why she either likes or dislikes than just saying how wonderful everything is. This will have the effect of giving her posts more credibility and will be of better service to the many readers of this forum who may be playing on an Internet site but are interested in some of the others.
I have been playing on Highlands for about a month now and the games are ok. But I also have to say like a previous poster in this thread you do play against elite players that have started with free rolls. The players are the likes of doyle brunson, phill hellmuth and many other good limit players from vegas. If you cant hold your own at 20-40 games in vegas then you cant beat the the 20-40 at highlands. As for Diane I think she means well with her threads but she does sound like an advertisment but I dont believe she is. I am not on a free roll at highlands I used to play at paradise but I believe the games there are not on the up and up and now I play on planet 75% of the time and 25% on highlands. Good Luck to you all.
LOOK whats happened in the last two days MASON, Highlands has achieved its goal of free publicity wheather negative or positive, look at how many threads I have seen about this site and responses and two days ago I have never heard about... think about it PARADISE POKER and POKER SPOT customers have been complaining and what better way to gain knew customers Highlands is supposed to have the answers to all their bitter complaints, well they wont get my service.
10-20 HE
I am in the BB holding Kc Qc. Called by five ppl including SB. I raise..called all 'round. Flop comes 7d 9c 10c. SB checks..raise..reraise..a fold..I call..SB folds..it's capped..call..call. Turn is a 3h. Bet..raise..I call..reraise..capped..I call. River is a 2h. Bet..raise..fold..reraise..cap. Both guys had six eight os..no club draw. My question is this. Should I have surrendered this hand early knowing by the capped betting after the flop that I was up against made hands and had to draw out against them? Thank you in advance for any advice.
Diane,
I don't care much about all the "political" commentary re: your post - BUT - your comment "I have seen no evidence of collusion. (and believe me I am watching after some bad experiences on Paradise)" is hard for me to understand - you just can't SEE collusion unless you can SEE the cards which you can't also 2-3 guys just on a phone telling each other what they have IS a real edge. And you'd never see that eigther.
Only way one can prove collusion is for one person to come forward and admit it - I don't see that happening eigther.
Not only that, if the collusion is sophisticated enough only an expert would recognize it even if you could see their hands. I don't believe that Diane is in this category of expertize.
Mason, I readily admit that I have no expertise in this area. Never claimed to be an expert, never will.
Merely submitted my personal opinion, that it is an area I am personally concerned about. Since I have that concern, I made the choice not to play there.
Everyone else needs to make their own choice. I speak for no one but Diane
Diane from Green Bay
I don't know if anything will come of this but there is talk on this forum about someone or someones going to Paradise and checking out their operations. You might be a good candidate since you are already suspicious of them.
You mean there's someone who isn't?!!
HOW do you stop this type of collusion, which they cant moniter at PARADISE . DO you put wire-taps on the suspected by court order. I know there are ways to catch these clusterf--ks in the very act on tape. A strong gut hunch tells me this how they are getting away with it so undetected even though you they are doing this...give you 5-to-1 odds that Iam right.
how you catch them is you monitor who is playing with who.I already notice on paradise that certain players are always at the same table together.Its different than looking for weak players and playing with them because if paradise would look at hand histories they would find you trying to isolate them,check raising them etc.But with cell phone partners they may lay down suspicious laydowns with each other or play hands differently than they normally would.It would take a lot of hands to figure it out but Im sure paradise could do it knowing what all the cards are.I myself have logs on a few players who always play together-and it pisses me off.I questioned one player and I now notice that he is always with 3 possible players all from the same area-my area.I guess they realized that it was starting to get a little obvious and so they must have changed names etc.Either way I am sure you could narrow who are cell phone partners.
YOU get enough reasonable doubt...get someone whose computer expert in down loading these sites into a disk ...then go to the F.B.I. with these facts and they probably start monitoring these suspicious activities.
why should the FBI care .I believe these sites are based out of costa rica.I think the only one not is Poker.com which is based in Vancouver -i think .which is the reason why no Canadians are allowed on that site
IF this is a serious subject "collusion and tactics for money" on the internet which i have observed the last two weeks at this site....THE authorities at COSTA RICA can cooperate with the F.B.I. which many countries in the civilized world do with one another. BUT you need solid reasonable doubt for the FEDS. continue in this matter. PARADISE is not no the only site I have heard complaints from... AND I am not talking about "random shuffling" but rather cellphone conspiricy.
Nightstick the FBI and for that matter the United States is against internet gambling and would never try to protect paradise poker a multi million dollar operation which they consider illegal. My understanding is that there arent any laws against internet gambling but if there is an operation in existense in the U.S. they will find some law to lock you up that is the reason they are in Costa Rica. As for cell phone collusion I am sure it exists but I doubt there are any laws to protect you from this and I doubt the authorities would spend there time with that matter. Caviat Emptor that is the bottom line.
They know everyone involved. They track organized criminals in the region for money laundering, drug activity, etc.. They have no authority for prosecuting the owners without enough evidence to bring convictions in the USA. Knowing who they are, and proving beyond a reasonable doubt are two different issues.
Frankie, perhaps you could provide expert testimony for the Feds regarding proof of crooked behavior. You apparently have been convinced beyond a reasonable doubt; you should just present the facts that you have seen, which have personally convinced you, on the stand. You could take down a criminal empire!!!
The real problem, I believe, is that (a) offshore gambling does not appear to violate US law; I believe the Senate held hearing on this and is contemplating a law to cover it. The best they could do now would be racketeering, unfair trade practice, etc. (b) getting personal jurisdiction over offshore gambling sites is a pickle, because its not clear that these entities "do business" on American turf. The same problem exists when states want to go after offshore porn sites -- the "transactions" don't really occur in any one particular spot. Even state and federal "long-arm" jurisdiction statutes do not appear to -- or there is at least some doubt as to whether they do -- cover offshore internet activity.
TO my understanding their are some states that prohibit online gaming or off-shore gaming. MAYBE someone can enlighten us on this matter. IN this age of hi-tech hackers invite the " backdoor" raiders,_ / no way /you _see me giving my credit card number over the internet.
Hello,
In various threads, most recently the 'Diane and Highlands' thread, I have seen the mention of freerolls for online sites. I believe Mason mentioned this in a thread a while back also
What is the deal here? Do online sites give out freerolls? How do they do it? Who gets them?
highland does appear to be easier to me so far, but let's face it there are only like 2 or 3 hold em games going on at a time and the software is sucky and sluggish. BUT, i have been a winner so far there, which is much more than i can say for the same limits at paradise...
If you have mIRC, please join us in #NineKoreansInTheLab for some friendly poker chat. The password to the channel is "paradisecolluders".
If no one is in that room, please try #Quad-Bots. This channel is for paradise bot creators and hackers only. The password there is "ID10T".
And if those two channels are empty(which is HIGHLY unlikely), you can try #suckout. The password there is "PotOdds".
Looking forward to seeing you all!
I just looked up jerk in the dictionary and your picture was there.
What the hell is this post supposed to mean?
Is it against the law to question abnormally high hands on a computer programmed "random" shuffel system.
I'm sorry if you don't but it - and it is not sour grapes on my part - I am doing quite well in tournaments on PP but the hands are higher than in real games.
Here is another one for you - I have noted that 2 medium cards almost always make winning hands when delt to me- and I don't believe in LUCK. I am not saying what these hands are but I have been olaying them out of position and for multible raises. Last night I won all 3 hands I played with them. Some thing is very very weird on Paradise. I've been olaying these 2 cards for a week now and they always make a monster - go figure - luck - coincidence - "pre programmed" Who knows It just workes for me.
WHATS the matter ROUNDER cant JAKE have his little fun after being screwed by this so called "random shuffle",voice his opinion in a humerous way and you snap with indignation. ONE minute you stick up for Paradise then the next your against the random shuffle with medium connecters out of position. LOOK up hypocrite in the dictionary and see whose name is their/ EITHER you are for it or you are not. FOR THE PAST WEEK I HAVE SEEN enough whining about collusion in this site makes me want to go down to Florida and stuff some ballot boxes in those clusterf--ks mouths.... THOSE who play with money on the internet do with their own risk.
Nightstick,
I know when I choose to play poker online, I am undertaking a risk. However, I assume that since raking millions of hands is a golden goose that is making the proprietors rich, I figured that would be incentive enough to make sure that the game is run as close to real-life play as possible. When the cards become ridiculously UNREAL-like then one can only arrive at the conclusion that the software allows way too many big hands and miracle cards to hit. Whether this is intentional or not is another thing. I have never seen so many gut shots arrive on the river in real life. Nor have I seen so many quads against quads hit. I have been playing at Planet Poker and Highlands Club and I can attest to the fact that the cards seem to mimic real play at both of their sites. I think Paradise should seriously have Caro or some other whiz evaluate their software to see if it can be improved on it's "random" draw.
8-6... yeah, I've noticed it too.
I won't confirm that but tonight a friend called me and thanked me for the info - he said he called a raise late in a tourney and beat AA with this hand and won the tournament.
Like I said I am not confirming the 2 cards you mentioned but these is somehting in it - I have won 5 consecutive times with these cards (making monsters every time) and I don't believe in coincidence.
Posting a personal attack against someone for posting a humorous stab at those who think paradise is rigged?
What are you, 12 years old?
No but if you don't see the problem at PP - maybe you need glasses - how can it be a personal attack I don't even know you.
NICE piece of satire on Paradise, you had me in tears of laughter, sorry some people dont see the humor of it.
I play these cards (not devulging which they are) from any position and for any amount of raises and I don't usually play loose by any means - they make monsters all the time - but only in tournaments.
You can LOL all you want but this PP is so rigged it isn't funny. Tonight there were so many sets I couldn't keep track of them I had 3 sets of 5's and 2 got beat by sets of J's in the same tournament.
What a joke!
Whats the point of bringin up these numbers if you won't let other see for themselves. "I have a magic trick that only works for me and so I can't tell you what it is." Sure you do...
SK
bravo, Rounder..I agree 100 percent!
In case I forget to include this in future posts, let everyone be aware.........that when I post, I speak for no one but myself.
I am not affiliated in any way with any poker site, any casino, any poker magazine, or any other entity ommercially associated with poker.
I am simply an avid recreational player stuck in WI who loves poker. Plain and simple. All my posts (if any, from here forward)are simply a recitation of my personal experiences,thoughts and opinions.
Diane Biersteker
Don't believe a thing Zee says about me, except if he says I suck at cards.
Paul
What should we believe about the things you say about Zee?
Slothful Induction would be one of my favorite descriptions for Zee.
pf
Interesting how many phrases in English make use of characteristics ascribed to certain animals:
A Slothful Induction
A Catty Remark
To Dog It
Now I am wondering about the origin of these terms and others. Based upon your past posts the first such phrase that springs to my mind regarding the Zee-man would have to be "A Sheepish Grin."
nt
There is a thread from a week or so ago that stated what happened with paradise poker inviting Ed Hill and Nolan Dalla to come check out there operation. Ed responded today that nothing came of it because Nolan should no interst but Izmet Fekali said he would be willing to go with Ed. Maybe we should ask paradise if they still want to extend the offer and have some 2+2 players and a computer expert if possibe go to check them out. The reason I wrote this is because Ed responded back today about the offer they had made and many might not see his post.
they wont pay for the trip
They already offered to pay for all the expenses for Nolan, a computer expert and myself.
Ed Hill
Hey Ed, I would go.
I am a Computer Expert (in my eyes) -- I do run a multimillion dollar 18 year old software company with a successful Web-based product which makes profits, and I still run the tech. dept.
I have played a lot on Paradise, it has been a hobby for me. I have played for many years in Casinos, like during Networld Interop, Comdex (not this year thank heaven) etc. I do much much better in Casinos.
I have a few provisos: a) I want to see the hands -- the full hands -- with a Unix or Linux computer to run scripts I write while there (I could bring a Linux portable, then ftp the files down too). I also want to see the firewall in action, and play with the password authentication programs b) I think I will be travelling to Japan in Jan. so it would need to be in Feb or maybe March. Oh, I don't need first class seats, but good airlines and first rate hotels, right? And last, no non-disclosures. That's the point of this: I want to write about what I find. I am sure we could put a nice article or two together.
Mark
WOULD you be interested in adverstising on this web-site. MASON has nothing with me bringing this up, but in the last two years this site has helped my holdem game tremendously, and I like see it continue in prosperity. OF course I wouldn't know what advertising is exceptable to Mr. Malmuth for this web-site.
We advertise on sites for helpdesk professionals: Our product is a web based helpdesk/issue manager,and it is great. But i don't think anyone else here is likely to need this product, and it is a high end type tool, minimum sale is $4-5k sold to large corporate type users. I don't want to get a free ad, but if anyone needs such a product here, let me know via my email. If 100 of you email me for info, with email addresses of companies who might purchase, I *will* ask my marketing director to talk to Mason.
Mark
I read on one of the previous posts about different sites.I read about one called 4Knights.So I downloaded it and it is the first one that I have seen that has simliar software to paradise.It doesnt have that slow old stuff like planet,delta,highlands,pokerlive or dragon.I think it just opened but I was very impressed with the way it looked.I havent deposited any money yet but I think it is worth checking out.I havent seen too many players there either but it looks great.I also do not work for them and I play paradise every day along with either planet,highlands, or delta.My paradise name is Bob Loblaw in case you dont believe me.Anyway it looks good.www.4knightspoker.com
Another site with good, quick graphics, but as yet few players, is Pokerspot.
I have played on 4knightspoker as well. I agree, it has this special feel to it, more like a home game. Everyone chatting and enjoying themselves. Paradise you are just a number and I personally do not like the way it plays too fast for my liking. I have played on other sites and feel this one is for me. Have seen some very loose play on 4knights as they attracting new clientel especially from Russia. I have been to Moscow and seen the local talent at play. More of them on line it will be a field day. 4knights keep up the good work
I don't know if this is correct forum, but I cannot get into Paradise. I had an account which I canceled. Now that there are tournaments, I want to re-open the account. I down loaded the program fine. When I log in to the site everything comes up, however, when the log in is complete I get an error message, "cannot connect to server, error code 615".
I also cannot seem to E-mail to Paradise. At least I am getting no reply at all. I assume they are not getting my E-mail.
Does anyone have any suggestions on this?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Mick
Their web page has a troubleshooting FAQ. You might want to try emailing them from a seperate account.
Your ISP may also have a firewall that you need to get through.
If you use AOL there are additional problems.
Can anyone please give me the real information about internet cheating and some examples of them.Not the Mafia Fantasies etc.I believe that the owners of these sites want to keep these games on the square and do what they can.Is the threat of outside interference,collusion thru telecommuncations,multiple computers in the same room,big enough to really worry about.Besides the obvious,what else is being done?What level would these things have to be done at to be profitable?Finally,just what role should Internet Poker play in a serious players overall game plan.
The question as to these sites intentionally cheating or not is open to speculation. The fact that they are controlled by organized crime is not. They are.You can fantasize all you want about the reasons they refuse to divulge their ownership information. They are professional crooks. Case Closed.
Paul unfortunately very few people know all the "facts" about I-poker, which is why there is so much speculation. The only way you can know the truth is if you are the one either a. running the I-poker sites, or b. colluding. It is more important to ask, "Will the possible presence of such activities affect my gain to the point where it won't be worth my time?" I would venture that many people would answer a resounding NO to this question. There are many people who have reported being ahead by tens of thousands of dollars, as well as win rates of 2bb/hr. I would think it would be impossible to be ahead by these figures if they were playing in rigged games or games where rampant collusion was occurring. The key is finding a game where you feel comfortable. Try multiple sites and notice which ones feature the softest games at the levels you want to play at. Take notes and be studious. If you do these things and have a decent game, I am pretty sure you can find I-poker to be pretty profitable. As for your last question, it all depends on the individual. If you don't have any casinos nearby you, or don't feel like playing in a casino, you could conceivably do all your poker play over the internet (provided you never want to play over 20-40).
It s easy yo cheat in Internet poker
ICQ and Netbus is good
ICQ you simple talk with another on the table and netbus you can see the the cards.
JSS..sigh..
How exactly are you going to get the Netbus server program installed on your opponents machines? For those of you who don't know, Netbus is a remote control program sort of like PC anywhere. It allows you to control and see screen shots of the computer it is installed on over the internet. Sometimes, hackers trick people into downloading it and installing it on their machines. Then they sit back and wait for them to connect to the Internet. They can then access the files on your hard drive, look at what is displayed on your screen...etc. Some versions of NetBus even allow you to turn on the microphone or webcam on the victims machine. Still for it to be of any value in cheating on PP, some of the players at your table would have to have it running on their machines while they play.
As far as chatting with someone while you play, why not just pick up the phone and call them. I'm sure that does happen quite a bit on PP. PP does have countermeasures to stop collusion between players.
yes...like having the server download netbus!
How would you know if you downloaded netbus?
nt
I down loaded a Planet Poker up-grade this a.m. and now, whenever I log onto Paradise while I'm playing @ Planet, I cannot read my hole cards at Paradise. The packets from Paradise are not transmitting clearly. Has anyone else experienced this problem? spitball
I dont see the fun in playning the free games its teen players how raise all the time.
No one is serious and if some one is some body else is not.
It should bee motch better if it was something to play about like if you get 1 point for every pot won and when you have 500 you can play in a 5 dollar tourney ore geting 5 $ to play in the ring Games. I think the chips in the free game should get som new syle they are looking terrible. They dont have any free tourneys jet and its sad. This is Only my thoughts. I have spend 100ds of hours in Paradise atching the 20/40 and playing the free games. And Internet is not free for the players how has Modem ore somthing like that. And i dont now i am a lone with that.
And one think more i think Paradise is like drugs you must have it. And when you lose in the real game many buy in trying to win the money back.
It should be good if you got somthing out of it.
Comments please..!.
Johan
If you want to practice cheaply I suggest you play on the $0.50-$1.00 tables where the play is closer to a regular game than the free money tables. The only thing the free money tables do is get you used to the interface and I suppose they can be a basic guide in the sense that if you cannot easily rack up thousands of play dollars you probably can't win real money.
For free games that play more like real games you might want to try IRC poker, but better to just buy in for the $0.50-$1.00 tables on Paradise (or the $0.25-$0.50 games on Planet). For $50 you can play for awhile and if you turn out to be a winning player or have a good streak, you should be able to win enough to move up to the $2-$4 tables without too much difficulty and from there, who knows?
However, if it feels like drugs to you and you are losing I would suggest never playing again, not even the play money tables which will just encourage you to throw more money at your habit at the real tables.
Good luck,
Paul Talbot
Why would paradise give you free money? They have thousands of clients who are already paying to play. Giving the play money tables free role tournaments would discourage people from playing. If you were the owner of ParadisePoker I am sure you wouldn't give money away either.
Derrick
Why does anybody give anything away? To get a little more than what they give away.
I think this idea might be somewhat beneficial to Paradise. Think of it -- another thousand players a night on your system vying for what? the chance at 5 dollars? Any site would kill for that kind of investment/traffic return.
They all ready (kind of) do it with the point system. They didn't have to give you your ten bucks back. They did it slowly so that you would stick around and feel compelled to play.
I am just saying that they are already the busiest site. I am sure they wouldn't mind doubling their traffic though, so your reasoning is sound.
Derrick
Has anyone had their hand folded in turn when they didn't act? I believe this happened to me twice last night. I was also having connection problems which, I believe, are not from me. I have a high speed connection, but I am still having problems acting. In the last 2 days I have used 2 all ins. These are the first all ins I have used in the 7 months that I have been playing.
Derrick
If you're playing online poker without a firewall your asking for someone to access your Back Orifice.
It happened to me once. I emailed PP to notify them. Although they refunded my big investment of 2$, they told me that they had never seen a "phantom" fold as they called it.
They told me that since I was playing at 2 tables at once that I sould be careful.
I was careful and I swear I didn't touch anything.
Strange...
I since then installed a firewall on my PC.
Wonder if this was the reason.
Can anyone recommend a good free firewall ?
ThePrince
ZoneAlarm is highly recommended and free
n/t
what's a firewall?
A firewall is security software you install on a PC to prevent hackers from entering your system. It is basically a filter that gets put inbetween your connection device (modem or ethernet card) and your PC. The firewall analyzes all packets (data) that comes in from the outside (in our case, the Internet.) It is entirely user-configurable allowing or disallowing any IP address or Internet ports that you wish. You can even shut off port 80 and then your web browser won't work.
I HIGHLY recommend using a firewall especially when playing online poker to say nothing of overall system security. The more your PC is connected to the Internet, the more chances of a hacker getting in to it. From personal experience, I can tell you that when playing on both Planet and Paradise poker, Trojan horses were being attempted to enter my PC. Whether or not it was from someone at the virtual felt is unknown. All I know for sure is that is was my only open connection at the time it happened.
Hope this helps.
-Yamáte
Yamate - I kinda wonder if I've been exposed to horses or viruses. I've been surfing/playing poker without protection and all this firewall/hacker talk is starting to freak me out. (So last night I installed and now run Zone Alarm.) Is there any way to scan my system for the trojans and viruses that those filthy bastards might try to inject into my system? (Already use McAfee VirusScan if this matters or helps) Any way to clean them out?
Yes there is. Go to www.symantec.com and look up the Norton AntiVirus product. In that section, you will find a java applet that scans for all viruses and Trojans. It is the equivalent of NAV.
Keep in mind, the scan (like any virus program) will only detect viruses that have already been discovered. If there is a new Trojan in your system, you may be exposed but this is highly unlikely.
Scan for virusus and install the firewall. You'll be in good shape from that point on.
I can recommend a good cheap one. Norton Personal Firewall is very good considering the price and it's really all you need. I think it's like $30. A good investment if you ask me.
-Yam
Hi Derrick,
I use Videon Powersurfr as well to play on Paradise, and have experienced the same problems the past couple of days.
I e-mailed Paradise Support and confirmed that the problem is with our ISP and not at their end.
Strangely enough, the problem seems to have started shortly after the "upgrade" that Videon took us offline for early one morning last week. I suspect that they are still sorting out the bugs ... presumably if the problem persists, we should call and complain.
It has noting to do with your firewall (or lack thereof as suggested above)..
Hope this helps,
Dave
I have also noticed a slowdown playing from my powersurfr account. I thought it started right after the recent interface upgrade that paradise put out, but other players have said it didn't affect them. So, I guess it must be powersurfr as well.
David
This is a bug that Paradise apparently cannot seem to isolate. I reported it way back when tournaments first opened. I believe the bug was introduced with the first tournament build that was released.
-Yam
Who is going in the pokerspot free role today?
n/t
I didn't realize the free rolls would only be 100 players, instead of 200 like they were before. So I can't get into the NL, cuz its full. I'll be sure to be in the Limit Tourney though.
So far I've placed 35th out of ~160, and 19th out of ~85. I'm sure I'll win today ;)
Uh. I meant for this to be under the PS Tourney Post. Oh Well.
Why are they not having any Limit Hold'em Buy-In Tourneys?
What happened to you? I notice you are always signed up early for the tourneys, but couldn't find you after the tourney started.
I lost connection and when I tried to sign up again the list was full. Bummer!
Why am I asking this question as I would muck these cards under the same circumstances most of the time but here goes.
I'm on the button with about $450 out of $320 start and blinds are $15/30 in a full table with JJ - it is 3 bet by fair players I muck with out much thought - friends think I am nuts. My thinking is with these guys 3 betting almost any over card beats me and I am probably dominated with at least one over pair.
The results aren't important I'm just curious what others think about mucking JJ at a full table to 3 bets and more action to come behind.
It depends on the player. Against some players it would be an always fold, against others it would be an always raise.
If I feared an overpair, I might call preflop and then raise/fold the flop if I had an over pair. Under normal circumstances (where I don't necessarily put a player on an overpair) I'll go to the river if only one overcard to my pocket pair flops.
Preflop there are many reasons to 3-Bet. You can often raise for value with hands like AQo+, AJs+, 77+. You can raise for deception if you have small suited connectors. You raise it for a free card. You can raise to isolate a poor heads-up player. I only start to be cautious of overpairs when it is 4-bet preflop.
That said, it probably doesn't cost you much to fold, especially if you are in a tournament. Tournament play required that you be much more confident in your holdings than ring play.
- Andrew
it is too tight for an online ring game, but not too tight for an online tourney.
unless you have a very certain read on one of the raisers and know she only raises with big pairs then you made a good call. but the chances, as andrew said, of a lower pair, AK, AQs, or even AJs are too good. like that recent sklansky article shows, AK or AQ is SO much more likely, you owe it to yourself to put them on that. there's a decent chance you mucked the best hand. i wouldve seen the flop on this one, but of course folded right away to an overcard and serious betting.
ive been playing tighter and tighter in online games as i gain experience, but im finding it only pays off at the higher levels (10-20 and up). at the lower levels it's just a crap shoot to see whoevers Qx makes two pair on the river.. yuck!
It's a pretty easy laydown against good players, but you said they were 'fair.'
Depends how fair they are and what you had seen them do previously.
I probably would have reraised against fair players and folded against good or really tight players.
you might have the best hand, but you are likely dominated. Even if you don't have the best hand, everyone has overcards. I made this laydown on supremet tilt one day. I was a click away form "cap". Someone had queens by the way.
The key elements of your question are "fair" players and on the "button". By raising on the button, you put yourself in the position of controlling the pot, depending on the flop. As far as action to come behind you, you are referring to the blinds, which calling three raises cold, either are very loose or very strong. Chances are that the blinds have little strength, since so much strength was shown in front of you. "Fair" players tend to check to the last raiser even if they make top pair. If an overcard comes on the flop, you can either represent that top pair or take a free card hoping to hit a jack. If you were up against tight, solid players with that kind of action in front of you, yes a fold is in order. You also indicated that you were in profits when this hand came down, meaning you had established some positive table image, which can allow you to take liberties a loser can not take. I'm curious as to how the hand played out.
In the universe of situations where it occurs mucking JJ is borderline, so the idea that you're "nuts" is silly. If the initial raise comes late and the 3-bettor is next, you're often up against two biggish cards and a pair that's lower than yours, or two biggish cards or a pocket pair vs. AK. Why then would you fold JJ on the button or the sb? But with a fairly early raise and 3-bet like I assume you were facing, calling with JJ is gambling. Certainly you'd be nuts to call with tens or nines.
I did the same thing the other day... Flop came JJT. One person had AA, another KK... K hit turn... In spite of watching the hand in severe and excruciating pain, I think its the right call unless you think there is a good chance that no other player holds an overpair... People who have put in 3 bets with these big cards in the bigger games here seem to go to the river with relative impunity... Against multiway field (3) I think you may as well call with 22... At least you'll know where you're at instead of realizing you've mucked JJ to AK after 99 bets on the flop and turn with nut-nothing... These people are NUTS...
just sent this email to highlands:
"just wanted to let you know the reason i have cashed out my balance is because i was timed out with an AA that i slowplayed preflop and wouldve made considerable money with. ridiculous. your software has bugs that cause players to time out way too often. it's not condusive to a good online poker service. ive seen it happen too often to other players and now me, and it is unacceptable. if you do not significantly improve something you might as well close your doors now."
Let us know when they award you the pot.
I have played a little on Highland, Omaha Hi Lo, never had a problem,,, have had time out problems numerous times on Planet.
Unfortunatley this is one of the big reasons why paradise poker is better -you do not get timed out near as often as the sites with the old software -planet,highlands,delta,dragon,pokerlive,poker.com.The only way highlands can conpete is to have better customer service(which highlands has the best anywhere online),they can offer badbeats etc.However paradise separates themselves from the rest with their unmatchable sofar software.(fast,easier to read,less connection problems,etc)
Just one more reason to not slowplay AA.
Strange I thougt slow playing was not raiseing til the end,when you had other player trapped not sloooooow to play
yeah just love to GET slow played in the bb with a piece of cheese and hit 2 pair - ooops AA cracked again.
does anyone know the website adress for dragon?? please let me know asap! thx-Mike
Its www.dragonpokerinn.com
The following is the results of my analysis of the flops.txt file from Paradise.
The flop cards are biased and non-random. The flops are more likely to contain low cards than high cards.
I see two basic explanations for this bias. 1) The card dealing algorithm is flawed. Players could be receiving more high cards than is normal resulting in more action than is normal. The board contains more low cards than normal resulting in more bad beats than normal. The end result is a game that feels unnatural and players that are paranoid.
2) The card bias is normal. The bias could be the result of high card rich flops never being flopped, because everyone folded. The raw data consisted of 4,595,665 hands with 733,709 hands being folded without a flop. The card bias could be caused by the exclusion of 15.96% of the hands from the sample. The card bias is greatest on 5th street as would be expected.
I expected to see some card bias on 4th and 5th streets, but I never expected to find anything this significant.
This leaves me with 3 questions. 1) Is this card bias normal? 2) Will Planet match Paradise and disclose the same information? 3) Can I gain any advantage online or in ring games by applying this information?
The following is the card counts discussed above. I counted the occurrence of each card and sorted the results. The flop is represented by card1, card2, and card3. The turn and river by card4 and card5.
Card1 Card2 Card3 Card4 Card5 Ad 73446 As 73257 Ad 73410 Ad 61573 Ah 52578 As 73593 Ac 73543 Kd 73439 As 61929 Ad 52596 Ah 73607 Ah 73593 Td 73543 Ah 62016 Ac 52647 Kd 73636 Tc 73696 As 73575 Jh 62124 Kd 52772 9d 73638 Ad 73698 Jd 73730 Ks 62137 Ks 52773 8h 73658 Ks 73719 Kh 73751 Th 62237 As 52846 Jc 73706 Kd 73733 Ac 73775 Kh 62266 Js 52893 Jh 73726 Qs 73749 8h 73782 Kd 62271 Jh 52938 Ac 73876 Jh 73802 Qs 73784 Jc 62312 Ts 52976 Td 73901 Qc 73912 Ah 73800 Qd 62334 Qs 53011 Jd 74011 Kc 73957 Qd 73820 Ts 62360 Td 53065 Ts 74015 Ts 73978 Jh 73828 Jd 62484 Qh 53114 8d 74052 5c 74004 6d 73834 Ac 62485 Kc 53115 7s 74055 9c 74019 Qc 73917 7s 62501 Th 53133 8s 74065 8c 74040 Ks 73937 Qs 62516 Jd 53210 7c 74079 9d 74046 Js 74012 Js 62521 Jc 53260 6c 74135 Kh 74084 9h 74058 8h 62546 Qd 53264 6s 74161 Qd 74124 7s 74091 8s 62645 5s 53265 3s 74168 4d 74149 8d 74114 8c 62651 8c 53299 Qs 74180 Jc 74166 Jc 74114 9h 62707 7c 53303 7d 74184 Qh 74184 9c 74141 Kc 62728 8d 53356 9h 74204 7d 74193 5s 74167 5h 62731 Qc 53376 Js 74211 Js 74207 Tc 74197 7d 62731 9c 53386 Qh 74230 8d 74262 Kc 74230 Tc 62769 Kh 53390 5c 74254 7c 74280 Qh 74239 9c 62823 7s 53423 Ks 74276 5h 74288 7d 74275 5d 62824 Tc 53453 Tc 74304 6h 74294 6s 74325 Qh 62859 5h 53470 9c 74324 8s 74294 8s 74339 3s 62926 8h 53513 5d 74342 5d 74313 8c 74347 Td 63000 5d 53547 4d 74348 Jd 74313 Ts 74365 9d 63027 9s 53555 3c 74360 9h 74314 9d 74368 6c 63065 6d 53561 7h 74364 8h 74325 9s 74378 5c 63106 4s 53594 8c 74396 5s 74407 4s 74461 9s 63116 3d 53606 Th 74421 7s 74448 7h 74462 Qc 63163 5c 53632 5h 74431 6s 74453 4h 74502 6d 63173 9d 53655 9s 74498 Th 74473 7c 74502 6s 63176 6c 53678 Kc 74506 3s 74479 3c 74505 7h 63185 8s 53678 6h 74508 Td 74493 4d 74513 6h 63198 7d 53694 Qd 74513 7h 74550 5c 74549 5s 63214 7h 53699 4s 74514 6d 74552 5d 74564 8d 63224 9h 53743 2d 74542 3c 74592 4c 74576 7c 63233 6h 53790 6d 74564 9s 74673 Th 74584 4d 63312 6s 53823 Qc 74566 4c 74679 5h 74653 4h 63332 3c 53864 Kh 74586 4s 74696 3d 74706 2h 63384 2h 53888 4c 74608 3h 74723 3s 74719 3h 63449 4h 53933 3h 74677 2d 74782 6h 74744 3c 63463 4d 53963 5s 74694 6c 74792 6c 74859 3d 63496 3h 53991 4h 74712 3d 74834 3h 74907 4c 63519 3s 54016 2s 74775 2h 74848 2s 74976 2c 63526 4c 54087 2c 75059 4h 74950 2h 75025 2d 63554 2s 54128 3d 75077 2s 74960 2c 75201 4s 63616 2c 54325 2h 75203 2c 75039 2d 75266 2s 63820 2d 54494
Since you did some initial analysis...
Your point number 2 is the accurate interpretation and it was the same conclusion reached the first time around when the analysis was done (and is of course exactly what you would find in a real card room) and that is that when there are low cards in people's hands there is more often than not no flop.
Conversely, when everyone is stacked with high cards there is a flop which is then made up of what is left which is more low cards.
You would need to see all cards, pockets and flops, to get the even cross section you want to see.
I did my analysis slightly differently: I counted all As, all Ah, all ... down to all 2c. The numbers of these -- ***in total*** -- were VERY closely the same. I then did some hand analysis: How many flushes, 3 of a kind, etc, these were completely random.
I have spoken offline to The Cat (Bill?) about this, and yes, my tests run (and results) were different. I did not check the number of As in position 1 agains the number of 2c in position 1, etc; but I can easily check these numbers, as I did not do these test last time. If the number are as above and not a programming error (the program is too easy so unlikely), then I think the hypothesis of folded hands is likely the reason.
BUT: PARADISE, WHERE ARE THE FULL HANDS??? INCLUDING HOLE CARDS!!! OR ANYONE ELSE: PLANET, WHAT ABOUT YOU?
Mark
Ed Hill and Nolan Dalla have been invited to vist Paradise Poker all expenses paid. Sounds like Paradise is ready to prove they are legit. Since Ed Hill has backed out maybe they would extend the offer to another group of professionals. Paradise???
I never backed out; Nolan has been uncommunicative and has apparently lost interest, not me. Nolan wanted to pick a couple of computer experts himself, I said, "Ok" and then I haven't heard from him in months. What I said was, "me going by myself is nothing more than taking Paradise off for a free vacation, as I do not possess the computer expertise necessary to accomplish anything."
Hey Ed, I will go, but not in Jan, I am going to Japan on biz.
And they gotta show me the holes cards!
Mark
PS Your private email to me had no body....pls resend.
I'm willing to go too, but only if Paradise is serious about an independent audit.
Costa Rica is a great place to take someone off for a free vacation. I would go in the spring and make time for some sport fishing in Tamarindo Bay or further north in the Guanacaste region. In June, you will catch sailfish, tuna, and dorado almost every day and even have the chance to catch a 500 pound (or bigger) blue or black marlin.
It is the thrill of a lifetime if you like that kind of stuff. A full day charter can be had for around 700-800 bucks, so it is pretty affordable if you have two or three guys.
How much is the powder cocaine, Michael?
Cat,
I did check your numbers (some of them) and they are perfectly correct. You did a better job than I did on this part of it: I knew that there were differences in the frequencies, but I thought they were too small to worry about them, but I should have sorted...I spent my time on the hand distributions. Those look right to me, but you should check this for us.
I wonder though, if people had AA, KK, QQ, AK, KQ, and other high cards, raise, and cause the hand to NOT be played, why would fewer high cards show up later? VERY STRANGE.
Mark
Where is this file located?
what if we all provided you with a few hundred of our hole cards each? id be willing to do this. or do you need to have millions to determine anything?
We'd need millions to do anything worthwhile.
Sorry, but that is Paradise's load to bear.
but thanks,
Mark
Bill,
I understand now, pretty well (I am slow sometimes):
We see that the higher cards are under-represented in the 85% of the flop/turn/river cards where there was a flop at all. Just a teeeeeny bit under, but meaningfully so.
What's up? Ok, in the other 15%, where there has been no flop, higher cards would have appeared more that their share, perhaps 5% to 10% more, how can that logically be? Well, the times where the flop doesn't happen are times (generally) where lots of folks fold, either before or after someone raises (or everyone folds to the blinds), and the remaining players, either one or both blinds, fold. Why would everyone fold except one plus the blinds, who then fold to a raise? ONLY WHEN NO ONE ELSE HAS HIGH CARDS. Or everyone fold to the blinds, and one of them raises and everyone folds? Same reason.
This all makes perfect sense.
AND WE COULD SEE IT ALL PERFECTLY WITH THE HOLE CARDS. HINT HINT!!!!!!!!!!
And what does it mean about the game of Holdem? You are in cutoff or button, everyone has folded, you get anything decent with A,K,Q, geez, a raise is a good thing! You might win it there, but also, you have more chance to get an A on the board. Or JJ,QQ, KK: you want to get rid of the Axs, who is much more likely to spike an A on you, none of em are in people's hands, they've folded the low cards. And what about AA or AK when no one has called? Do you raise with this in middle-level games with no callers on the button? Maybe not: You want callers. You also have more chances for high cards coming out on board.
Is this too obvious? Is it correct?
Mark
PS One argument other than this about randomness is that suitedness and trips and quads on board are very much what is to be expected.
Ok, now what we need to know is if I have AK on the button and it is folded to me what are my odds of catching an Ace?
According to Paradise's distribution?
AK is more likely to get an A and/or a K on the board given these distributions if everyone else has folded. I think you raise anyway, but here you get the added value that any blind playing is playing against a board that is a few percent more likely to get that A or K.
The question in my mind is AA...
Mark
I originally intended to calculate the nut hand percentages for the flop, turn, and river. These values could be compared to know values and we would know if the board had to many straights, flushes, or pairs. The problem is that the known card bias would make the results meaningless.
Is there any way to figure out how many times 6 and or 8 fall and if it is inordinate.
There is no analysis of Paradise provided data that will yield anything. How stupid do you expect them to be? A twenty line program can generate all the data needed.
Want to do an analysis that has some real chance of (dis)proving their fairness? Enlist twenty sound playing new accounts. Track every damn thing about their first few sessions. I'll bet my bankroll they are astonishing winners and gifted with outstanding good cards.
Why spend you time dicking around with data provided for that purpose?
I agree with World Class. But we should also analyze 20 established accounts "after" they cash out some of their chips. They will have amazingly BAD luck from that point for awhile. This will prove the site punishes players after cash-outs.
Played 3 pay tournies so far and cashed in all 3 for a total of $110 for a $45 out lay - 12th 9th and a 5th last night just inches from greatness.
These are fun and well run - just have a couple of complaints - yeaterday there were 9 left but we played 3 handed and the other table was 6 handed. I got handed 4 blinds in 5 hands which I think is a bummer. I also got locked for a couple of hands at critical times and on one I had the low nuts and 2nd nut high hand and I wasn't allowed to make my all in bet in both cases my hand was folded.
I miss the live action and feel I have lost an edge but this is the only game in town so to speak for me in poker hell - Chicago.
rounder Iwas at the table 5 handed when k-poker was busting people out me included (ajsmith) how do you check how many people are left?
I was thinking we were the only ones left and 2 hands i played with 4flush and lo draw on the flop. got tangled with kd poker and fell on my nose. should i have just hung back more?
I think putting chips in on a 4 flush without nothing else going for you is a big mistake when you are short handed you got a guy like kiddypoker playing loose aggressive when everyone is tightening up - I want the goods on the flop to come back at him hard.
He got lucky and ran into a bunch of passive players and he ran over them - he ended up 2nd and was out of line most of the time.
ROUNDER[[]]IF you need the live action move to California, plenty of it here especially in So. Calif.
When I lived in Arizona I traveled many times to So.cal for the bigger tournaments @ Commerce, Bike, Crystal Park and Oceans11.
I'll be back. But won't move there if I do leave chitown it will be for Vegas or Phoenix.
Rounder,
Have you talked to the management at Harrah's (E. Chicago about getting tournaments going again? I think a NL tournament would be great. When I was in Tunica last November, they had a low buy-in NL tournament every week.
A few weeks ago you posted asking if there was any interest in no-limit hold'em in Chicago, and that you were going to talk to card room managers about getting a game spread. I responded positively to your post, but never heard anymore from you about it. What, if anything, have you found out in the meantime?
I few of us have talked to the mgmt. and there is no positive response but we are putting together a home game with tournaments and NL/PL poker send me your email and we'll let you know what's going on .
My addy is - guzaldo@yahoo.com
I finished 29 out of 104 today in the Freeroll NL HE Tourney.
Funny thing was....I didn't play a hand. I signed in and then had to leave right before it started.
Figure I'll play in the $15 Buy-in NL HE tonight. If I can make it to 29 without playing, I should be able to catch AA a couple times to make it into the money ;)
My luck AA will come about the time I'm getting short stacked and will get cracked ;)
Wish I could get a hand history of the earlier Tourney ;)
Hey all
Do you have to sign up and give out credit card info beforehand when playing in a freeroll at PS?
I just downloaded, and have yet to witness any games. But I saw that there's a freeroll tonight, and I'd like to give it a go.
Any info would be appreciated!
CHiP
This post won’t improve your game, but it’s a fun story to tell, and it might provide some inspiration if you've been on a bad run. I decided to post it after reading the “Did I Witness a Miracle?” post on the General Theory forum. It’s the story of dropping to $5 in tourney chips and then turning that $5 into a first place finish in a $10 Paradise Tourney last night. It seems all the more unusual because the drop to $5 didn’t occur early in the tournament, a time where it might be more likely to recoup multiple bets with a full, or nearly full, table. The drop to $5 occurred seven games into Level VII with $600/1,200 limits and with three opponents.
There was certainly nothing special about my play. In the “Miracle” post, the player ran off six or seven hands in a row largely because he had a kill button each time which enabled him to see some free flops with starters which otherwise might have hit the muck. Since my chip stack was smaller than the SB, I just automatically went all-in on the blind and watched my chips grow as I won or tied the first ten hands I played. The streak extended through twenty-one hands during which I won sixteen hands outright, tied once, lost the main pots twice while winning the side pots, and during which I lost the entire pot only twice. Starting hands included QQ, TT, AKo, AQo, AJo, KQo, KTo, QTo, 97s, and 87s.
Is this a bizarre “Paradise” event? I don’t think so. Just one of those rare lessons about hanging in there.
How do you get to $5 at Level VII in the first place? I had T$1,980, another player had $1,975. With AhTh UTG, I raised and later thought I had gone all-in when I called the opponent’s all-in bet. But, actually I had the $5 difference. I didn’t realize this until seeing that I had been dealt a hand in the next game after losing this one - Game #32391414. I had almost left the table! The winning game was #32393366.
ParmaPaul
I am new to online poker. I have read alot of posts about the bankroll needed for paradise. Little has been said about stud however. What size bankroll do you need to be able to with stand the common ups and downs (2-4 stud)
I know this depends on my variance but assuming I am a winning player what are the chanves that I should go bust?
How profitable can 2-4 stud be on pp? ie bets/hour? the 4-8 games seem hard but what about the 2-4?
I would say 100-300 should be fine to start it really depends. I have seen some big swings in my money on paradise. it will really depend on your style I find paradise to be much more aggressive I also prefer the 4-8 games because people dont suck out on you as much.
I have only been playing on paradise for about a month now. i started with 100 lost that pretty quick then charged another 100 and changed my style of play to suit the players on paradise and have been doing fine since then going up about 400 over the 200 then it was down too about 20 bucks then up again. it sucks when you have 7's full ok kings and get beat. but it happens.
Simply put, which internet poker sights are the safiest and most fair to play on? Would Mr. Manmuth or Mr. Skalansky answer this question for me? If not, would some other knowledgeable person enlighten me?
Do to the presence of Mike caro and Roy Cooke who have pledged to make their site as collusion free as possible I prefer to play on Planet Poker. I have never had any trouble with cashouts and I find the support staff friendly and efficient.
I second that.
As for Highlands Diane, it might be a great place to play... if ever they manage to strike up a game. Saturday night.... I log in and there's a grand total of one...that's no typo...one player at the tables.
God knows what he was doing there...hanging out and enjoying the ambience I guess.
n/t
I played quite a bit this past weekend including Saturday nite for several hours.
Not sure how you could find just one person on. Do you mean in a game? It can't be on the entire site.
My husband and boys were hunting last weekend and I was on a lot. I am guessing I played at Highlands at least 15 hours total Friday-Sunday.
Puzzled in GB
Diane
It was about Midnight Pacific Standard Time on Saturday night...There were 10 players logged in and 1 player seated at the tables....maybe the games are populated by Eastern residents...I don't know...but it was ghost town that night around Midnight Vancouver time.
Im not affiliated with any site or casino but my experience is the softest games IF you can find one are at Highlands but after my intitial euphoria from some big wins wore off I realized the software is only fair with some glitches.The service/support staff is exellant.A big big problem at that site is all ins.Due to the low level of skill (and apparently ethics)at the lower limits players routinly go all in on the turn saying they were unknowingly timed out.It seems to happen on the turn much more than it should by players with small bankrolls involved in large pots.They are definetly abusing it.But I will say the games ive been in seem to be free of any effective collusion although im by no means an authority on that subject.The fact that Roy Cook works at Planet gives them credability and Im going to try them also.I tried Paradise but had some weird hands played against me, (probably my own sour grapes for losing and playing poorly) and closed my account there.
So far, I have only played at Planet, but things seem to be on the square and well-run, so I have no reason to leave.
I don't see any blatant collusion, like I do so often in live games, and all my cashouts went fine. I don't see any evidence of the 'monster hand syndrome' that many players from other sites seem to be seeing.
I am also impressed by their support staff. When players do abuse their all-in and violate etiquette rules, I do think the support staff takes action.
There have been many times where I see someone who was going all-in whenever they are raised and breaking every rule a week previous suddenly begin behaving themselves.
The drawback to Planet is that they crash far more often than I like. It sucks to be in a really great game and then *boom* the entire site crashes - Especially if you are stuck because some maniac is drawing out on you and you know it's just a matter of time before you are up 2 racks.
I am a hold'em player and I want to play at the 20-40 tables on Paradise. What is the best way to get there? Should I start off playing 3-6 and work my way up or should I just buy in for 600 a couple of times and then start playing the 10-20 or should I just keep buying in till I have a couple of thousand or so? Please any advice from current 20-40 players would be helpful.
Assuming that you think that you can beat 20/40 at Paradise (which is quite a big assumption). You can buy-in for $600 and start playing. Obviously you are taking a big risk of going broke and not being able to play until you can next buy-in.
The bankroll required to required to ensure that you could play for a long period (once again assumimg that you are a winning player) would be quite large. I think that a figure of $20K+ has been mentioned. There are some posts about this in the archives.
If you are good enough to beat 20/40, playing 3/6 will be a waste of your time, as you could make a lot more playing 20/40 live.
I do play 20-40 live and 30-60. I didn't say I could beat the game; however, I am sure I could hold my own. I just want to know the best approach to building the bankroll necessary to play. Do you really need 20K? If you have over 20K on paradise do you feel safe leaving it out there? Thanks!
I tried the "build up bankroll thing" in 5/10 3/6 and it sucks. If you want to build, then go to 10/20, but you still might go broke.
As for leaving a big bankroll online - you have got to judge that for yourself, taking into account that Paradise is the industry leader. A smaller bankroll only means that you might go broke and not be able to play, but if you've got live games to play where you do ok, that shouldn't be a problem.
Thanks Dave I will give it a "whirl" as they say. I am just skepticle of running into too many crackheads at the 10-20 table. It is hard to find out where somebody is in a hand if they don't even know where they are.LOL I experience this in live games also. I am going to buy in to the 10-20 for the 600 and see what happens.
:o
In order to avoid the maximum deposit by credit card you can mail them a money order for as much as you would like. I believe it takes about a week to clear. Ask them about it.
If I were you I would start at a lower limit and work up to 20/40. Online games play much different than live. Mostly they are tighter.
CV
You need to learn to play with those crackheads. Thirty BB will last you about mmmm 1 session at 10-20 with the variance that I have seen.
With $600 you can probably play $2-$4 pretty safely ;)
PoorBoy is completely right.With 600,you just have enough bankroll for 2/4,no matter how "good" you are.
20K is ridiculous if you play a solid game!
I occasionally play the 20-40 but I mostly play the 10-20 and 15-30 becuase generally I think for me I can make more money in those games than the 20-40 .When the 20-40 is good I play but most of the time it is too tough and more money is to be made at 10-20.I myself do not keep any more than 5000 in my account.I do not know why but I am just too nervous to keep more.I guess I am afraid that they may close it down or something stupid happen in which I have no say or control of the outcome -maybe I am paranoid, I dont know.But I found that 5000 is enough and when I have gone bad I can go back on my credit card.People say that the max of 600 a day or 2000 a month is not enough but you can email paradise and get your limits raised if you want.Anyway I play everday for over a year and had no problem.
Here ,take out the guesswork,You'll need 300 big bets if the games are soft and weak,500 big bets if they are average and more than that if they are tuff,PLUS 6 months living expenses.Period.So if you are in an average game (20/40) and your nut is 2000 a month (car,house,fixed bills)you will need 12,000 plus an addditional Net Poker bankroll of 12,000.Believe me when I say you easily can go thru 500/1000$ a day running badly a couple days in a row in a 20/40 if your logging alot of hours.If this happens when your fixed bills are also due say you have a couple of bad days,1750$plus 2000$ bills,well you can easily see 10 or 12 K would already be in jeopardy. Very few people ,myself included fall short of that number,but I for one have other income.If I had to play 20/40 only ,day in and day out ,I would want at least 25,000.
I would suggest you start at a lower limit, such as 10-20 and watch the 20-40 game. The 20-40 game at PP is very agressive and somewhat tight with a few maniacs thrown in. It is the most agressive game I have seen and takes a while to adjust. My advice is to be more agressive yourself once you do start playing. Try to get it heads up with the idiots who raise with 10-j, etc.
As far as bankroll requirements are concerned I think some of the earlier advice is a little exaggerated. There is no way I would put $20,000 into PP. The most I leave in is $5000. If I lose that I buy in for more. I have exceeded the monthly maximum once and just took a break for a week, it was no big deal. I get the impression you are not doing this for a living and therefore, there is no way you would need $20,000.
Student,
Have you been watching the games with pen and paper. Have you been tracking individual plays by certain people. Have you been noticing starting hands of certain people. When hands are shown are you recording them. You don't get to see the nuances of live play over the internet so you have to keep notes and track of names and how they play record where there from too because they may change their names. I would advise you to observe for a while whatever time you feel comfortable with before jumping into a game. Your skills of observation go down the tubes when dealing with a screen and not a player fidgeting or making some move to tell you whether to check or raise or whatever. The internet has it's benefits but it's has quite a few drawbacks. Make sure you spend enuf money for a decent hook-up, not aol. Get cable or higer T1 or greater. The faster your computer works the faster you get to analyze your hand compared to someone who has aol or some other inferior hook-up to yours. Personally I am going to take a year off of internet and just observe the higher limits for a while. I have aol and it stinks shutting me down with winning hands etc. I think in a year that poker will either be on top of all the problems that they are having now with collusion and dealing problems. I would advise sending a check for $1500 dollars then you can have extra in case things start fuzzy as they sometimes can.
Good Luck Student
paul
I am mostly talking about two full-table $5-10 to $10-20 hold'em games (no $20-40 for me yet). For those of you that can manage two games at once on Paradise Poker and are good at it, do you just concentrate twice as hard (following two games) or do you simplify your "basic strategy" somewhat? For example do you play a little tighter and if so can you give examples?
My only real adjustment so far has been to consciously pause a little longer before acting. I play off a laptop that only offers 800x600 so I can never see both screens at once . . . I move one of the game windows straight down just a little past the Leave Table button, and I move the second window straight up all the way to the top edge of the screen. (and of course Animation is turned off) Hopefully my next computer purchase will be able to better accomodate two games at once. :D
Anyway, I've been thinking about how to simplify my basic strategy somewhat since the information I get from watching each game is reduced. I find myself being more inclined to fold in the "coin flip" situations where folding or playing really doesn't matter that much. Also, I find myself limping a little more in the early positions (rather than raising) to try and get a "protected pot" situation on the flop. And some of the marginal hands that I might try a steal with in the late positions, for example T9 and 76s I tend to fold. However, I decided that there is pretty much no real adjustment I can make postflop without a significant sacrifice so I just take my time and try to play as well as I can when the flop hits. (I semibluff/bluff a tiny bit less)
That's about all I can think of. Is the profit really better playing two games at once or is it better just to play one (assuming that you are a winner)? Is there any advice you "two at a time" pros can offer? What have your experiences been like? sucker
can't imagine playing w/o seeing both boards. I've been playing two (or three) boards at once since March. I now play only low-limit as I found two 10-20's too difficut. I begin by observing the game I will most likely be joining. Getting a read on low-limit games doesn't take long. Once I'm in one game, I then observe a second. When I feel confident I have a fairly a clear picture of play at a second table I then join in. I play fairly tight. There aren't many times I enter without a raise or re-raise. It's important to keep track of who's at the table. The character of a table changes so rapidly on-line that a read you had a half hour ago may no longer be relevant. You MUST play slowly. Take your time with every decision as mistakes are easy to make with boards popping up without prompting. spitball
I play two tables all the time. I like it because you get twice as many hands and therefore, I almost never get impatient waiting for a playable hand. It is easy to be very disciplined when you are getting 140 hands per hour.
As to changes in strategy, I play 20-40 and have found it to be very aggressive. Most players are too agressive... bordering on crazy. So I play more agressive myself, when I find one of these players raising I will 3-bet with a hand I may have just called with to get it heads up. Playing 20-40 very few players will cold call 3 bets unless they have a great hand.
I also play quite a bit so I know the basic tendancies of most of my opponents, therefore, I feel I do not have to concentrate as much as I normally would.
I think your strategy to fold in the "coin flip" situations is good though. You will stay out of trouble that way. However, when it is a "coin flip" between raising and calling I will almost always raise at Paradise.
I have not been able to figure out how to see both games at once. I have windows and have tried to drag but it wont work. can anyone help me out?
there are posts on how to see two at once. they are about six months old, I think. My twelve year old showed me how. It involved changing pixels which shrunk everything to munchkin size, clicking on the blue bar at the top of the table (keep the 'clicker' depressed) and 'dragging' one board off the other. spitball
Could your twelve year old post instrux on how to change the pixels? I know its a bit of a request, but i have been fooling around for 20 minutes and I can't even find what i am looking for... Thanks in advance...
Right click on the desktop background. Go to properties, settings.
clinteroo,
If you have a 17" monitor with a good video card that can produce 1280x1024 resolution with 16bit color, you can easily see most of two tables at once. Arrange them diagonally so that only the corners overlap. Better yet add an additional video card & monitor to your system and with win98 or win2k (ME also) you can have two active tables at any resolution.
While playing in a 5-10holdem game as well as a $30 holdem tournament at paradisepoker I was suddenly removed from the 5-10 game and approximately one minute later I was removed from the tournament table and subsequently blinded out. Upon trying to return to the tables I was informed by the server that my password was invalid (the same password I have been using for 2 1/2 months). I also noticed that the money was removed from my account. I have since sent no less than 5 emails to paradise asking the nature of the problem but there has been ABSOLUTELY NO RESPONSE. Since I play there approximately 10-12 hours per day and have lost over $5,500 in the past two weeks I would think that such a loyal customer would receive better treatment. Is there any way I can "force" a response to my situation from this shady outfit?
what is your handle on paradise?
My handle at Paradisepoker is buckstop II and in the interim I have received a messge from paradise stating that I am under investigation because I was playing at the same table with someone who had a similar name. (Apparently someone who IS under investigation and I have been dragged down also)
Lots of people here have pull, and investments in Paradise. If you raise a big stink here, then the bosses will do what they can to correct gross errors. If any slight chance of you being wrong is out there though, then they will viciously attack you and assasinate your character. They know the liklihood of you filing suit in Costa Rican courts is slim to none.
If you couldn't log in, how do you know that your account has gone to zero?
Alfred, I know that the server was having problems late P.M. last nite. I was trying to play and was kicked out. I see this morning that they are saying the system is down till 3 P.M. east time. But I am sure you are aware of all this. I would be interested in hearing how PP addresses the same name investigation issue. Please keep us posted.
Not to sound like an ass or anything, but maybe this is a blessing in disguise for yourself?
Alfred:
What is the intention of your post?
Is it to bring attention to "shady operations" of Paradise, or to embarass them. I can't tell.
I believe if you are going to post a message describing potential shady operations by Paradise, trying to gain public support then your message should be little more detailed.
For example you stated you were removed from the system and have sent "no less than 5 e-mails" without responce.
If you were removed a month ago and have sent five e-mails and still haven't heard from them then I would aggree that something is wrong. However if this event occurred yesterday and your fired off five e-mails every half hour then it is something very different.
When did you last play?
When was your account locked out?
When did you send your e-mails?
How long have they had to respond to your e-mail?
In summary what was the content of your e-mail?
How do you know that your money has been removed from your account if you can't log on?
How do you know they are investigating someone with a similar name if they refuse to correspond with you?
It is pretty well accepted that attempts at collusion occurr at on-line sites. It is also accepted that there has been ALL-IN abuse in ring games and especially tourneys. There have numerous messages screaming for Paradise to do something.
I doubt that Paradise just randomly picked your account and locked it up. I also hope that it is just a misunderstanding because you have a screen name similar to someone else. But in any event if you want meaningfull input to your public appeal for help, you must post accurate information detailing your problem.
Good luck.
read my above post
From John's above post:
"If any slight chance of you being wrong is out there though, then they will viciously attack you and assasinate your character."
What part of my post is an attempt to viciously attack or assasinate Alfred's character?
Could it be, where I said:
"Good Luck"
or how about:
"But in any event if you want meaningfull input to your public appeal for help, you must post accurate information detailing your problem."
possibly:
"... I would aggree that something is wrong."
If you READ my post you should see that it makes absolutely NO judgement regarding the integrity (or lack of integrity) of Paradise and Alfred. All it said was; in order for ME to make any form of judgement that I NEED MORE INFORMATION.
If you confuse a request for more details with character assination and viscious attacks , then there is no doubt in my mind as to who has the pre-conceived notions.
Unlike yourself I believe in obtaining as much informations and facts as I can before making decisions.
Pathetic.
The posting of Jodder in regard to my being temporarily barred from playing at Paradise is very eloquent and quite well thought out. I did not provide very much information because I was extremely agitated at the time, having been plucked out of my ring game immediately after posting a big blind and moreover being plucked out of my Tournament game and subsequently being blinded out. Being a citizen of the United States and not accustomed to the rules of a "banana republic" like Costa Rica, and also having worked for the Department of Justice for 27 years I am accustomed to due process, in which a party is informed, warned, arrested, indicted, etc. before receiving a penalty for alleged transgressions. Since that time, however, I have received several emails from paradise indicating that there indeed was no problem whatsoever with my play and that my account was once again activated and my tournament buy in was refunded. I apologize to paradise for using the word "shady" since they have been by far the best of all internet poker sites in all areas of operations and their response time to emails is normally extremely efficient. So now that all has returned to normal I can once again play at Paradise without being under a cloud of suspicion.
Hey, good to hear! Good luck!
Alfred:
Congratulations on "winning". And yes it is understood that you were in the unique position of being very emotionaly close to the event.
I agree that it is extremely frustrating to be in the position you were in; basicly to have lost xxx amount of dollars for something that you were completely innocent of, with no recourse legal or otherwise.
What I can't understand is individuals like John (who also posted in this thread) who do not have the same emotional ties to the event. They are so willing to rally around anything, be it true, false, innuendo, or a rumour heard from a friend of a friend and spread it around like gospel.
I'm glad everything was resolved and hope Paradise gave you a real mushy apologee. I also hope that they gave you a little more incentive to play then just your "buy-ins". I do believe that if they yanked you out of the tourney, because of a mis-understanding on their part they should ensure that you remain a satisfied customer.
I fail to understand how ANYONE plays at a place with a reputation for corruption that these crooks have.
/
doing business with cold blooded,, drug dealing murderers is a bad thing. They have no qualms about ripping you off.
I just spotted Izmet playing headsup on Paradise play money table 8. It's a very interesting match.
Margo
table 9 now. Always Ultra (his opponent) plays low limit on Paradise.
They live 5 minutes from each other. So Izmet went down and collected ;)
They obviously play every day. Table 19 today.
Margo
I was in the tourney last night and saw Quads hit 3 times. Each time it was 3 cards from the board.
I hit a Royal Flush also. Dealt QhJh. Flop was KhTh and a rag. Turn was the Ace of hearts.
My first one, so I was pretty pumped.
Does anyone know if Poker Planet is currently or has plans to upgrade its software? Do they have any plans to add tournaments? Is Paradise planning to add multi-table tourneys? How about NL tourneys? Omaha? Stud?
Planet Poker is constantly upgrading its software. As for your other questions contact support at the sites and I'm sure they will tell you what their plans are.
I believe that I've heard that Paradise is considering multi-table tournaments. Haven't heard anything concrete though.
CHiP
You can now buy in at Planet and not have to pay that annoying 6% credit card buy-in fee.
Perhaps those in the know can tell us if the same policy is now being implemented on the other sites.
First tournament, Wednesday morning. Q-10h in the big blind.
I flop Broadway.
Bet, two callers.
Turn a king.
River a king; I lose to 4 kings and that's the name of that tune.
Very next tournament. I have A-K.
Flop A-Q-rag.
Turn a queen; I lose to K-Q and that's a quick two sixth-place exits on Paradise's one-table tournaments.
I dunno. I know it makes me a full-fledged member of the whiners club, but damn -- I'm a regular winner when I play in casinos; I've played in 10 150+ player tournaments at pokerspot and have hit the money 4 times.
How come I lose to two, four or six-outers at Paradise all the freaking time?
Sorry for the gripe session. Sometimes you just have to let it out.
Mike
I have now played with in the freeroll tournament and I saw you call a early position raiser with Ace Ten off suit.You were the first player to call the raise and I know this because you ended up winning the hand.This i saw with my own eyes.Therefore when you complain about suckouts on paradise I have a hard time believing it is "paradise" when judging from the play at pokerspot,you really have no chance in the long run.
Mr. Noname,
you can't criticize a player for this play considering you have not described the early position raiser and IF Foldie was on the button or blinds with no other callers it might be a good play to call a raise from a loose raiser with this holding.
Would you call a raise with this hand if it was suited or how about KQs. Come on - admit it Paradise is rigged for big hands.
Howdy, noname --
You could very well be right about calling from an early position with A-10. If it was under nornal circumstances, I probably played the hand incorrectly. If we're talking about the same situation, it was early in the tournament and the raising player had raised every hand to that point.
Do they have hand history availability at pokerspot? I'd be curious to know how whether I played the hand *that* badly.
Mike
You were right it was early in the tourney and the raiser had been raising and was early position however you were in early/middle position yourself and had many players to act behind you.Calling a raise with A10 off suit is defiantley not winning poker especially with many players to act behind you.It is debateable against a maniac calling with this hand if you are trying to get heads up with him but you just called and not raised which you should have done if this was what you were trying to do.Secondly like you said it was very early in the tourney and we didnt even know if the player was a maniac or someone who had a few hands cracked early.Anyway either way I think you made a mistake calling the raise and then when you called it you made the mistake of calling and not raising which you should have done to get heads up.As it turned out you had 4 callers behind you .You ended up winning the pot but I think in the long run we all know you really lose.So when you complain about abnormalities on Paradise I have a hard time believeing that it is not the result of just playing bad.
Paradise is rigged for big hands pure and simple.
Playing poker spot 6 tournaments I've seen quads 2 times and they were both in Omaha. NO ONE can tell me the amount of quads found on Paradise tournaments is natural. NO ONE!!!!
You want to have some fun start playing 8-6 like AA they always jut big hands ALWAYS.
I don't mind telling this little secret as I am off PP as soon as I close my account.
I checked out the 86 thing-doesnt work for me. After a mention in an earlier post I watched, and it made the first hand I watched, then not for the rest of my session.
Far as I know it only works for tournaments.
Or maybe I am going nuts and 86 had become a group 1 hand :-)
.
Rounder how long have you been playing at PP?
I've been playing about 8 months and don't notice any difference between it and live play. I see just as many big hands and suck outs in live play. There are a similar number of maniacs and loose players as well. I think you should give it a little more time, perhaps you hit a bad streak.
I'm not in a bad streak and I am not accusing anyone of cheating. I just think the shuffeling randomizing program is not working for tournaments.
Actually I have no problems winning money in the touraments. I just don't trust it for any "real" money outlays.
BTW I have not complained about suck outs or other hands it's the amount of sets and quads that I don't understand.
I was in a live tournament the other day with about 50 players. I saw the same person next to me get quads twice. I also made two big full houses and I saw a straight flush. This happens with real people too!
OH well...
If you're losing too much money because of all these "crazy' hands, leave.. go play elsewhere. I just take it in stride, because I know in the long run, if I play good cards and play well, I'll end up on the PLUS side. If you're concerned with hourly gains, etc, etc.. maybe Paradise isn't the way to go.
Everything's moving at an incredible pace, so you're going to be exposed to things you may not see live.
I myself get a kick out of it all. Of course, I'm not playing 20-40, so it's a lot more amusing when you're not losing hundreds of dollars on the hands!
If you want a game you feel 100% sure about being "straight", yeah, stick to poker rooms. If I had some close, I'd probably do the same.
Just my opinion..
CHiP
I think the point you make about everything moving at a quick pace is very good. I play two tables at once at PP and therefore, play about 140 hands per hour. At a live game you get about 35 hands per hour. Therefore, playing 5 hours at PP is the equivalent of playing 20 hours at a live game. So you may say to yourself "I played for 5 hours and saw two quads, I never see that in a live game" However, over a 20 hour period you would see more big hands at a live game so just the sheer number of hands would be part of the reason for the increased number of big hands.
PLUS, you get people in there that don't normally get to play cards because of their location, but now they have this chance, but their skills are..well, let's be nice and say.. are lacking.
You can't beat someone with $$ to blow calling you down with a small pocket pair hoping to hit a set on the river. And when they hit, just say "nice cards" so they'll do it again later and pay you off!
CHiP
I have spend the last two weeks in live poker getting smashed by 4 outers.
It happens live and online.
I agree with Rounder. Too many huge hands coming on bad hands too. I saw three people battle it out with quads in the same stud hand..that is the day I quit.
I thought this exchange of email between Paradise Poker and myself might be of general interest. Sorry about the formatting...I don't know how to clean it up any better
---- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Mogal" Hello, Jim. One of the unique features of our software (not found on most other online poker sites) is the ability for someone to get disconnected entirely from the game, reconnect, and then continue the hand as if nothing happened. In fact, if it's done fast enough, other people may not even notice you've disconnected Given the nature of the internet, it's conceivable that the server end hasn't properly identified that the client has disconnected. This can happen during a routing problem or if big delays are being experienced. In that scenario, suddenly a login from an account already playing appears. What our server does is *disconnect* the first one and give control of the session to the new connection. What your friend saw was the transfer of control from one client to his... which indeed will give him control and the cards and everything else, but at the expense of cutting off the first one. However, what will happen when two clients are properly connected from two different locations and are properly logged in is that the server will alternate between the two until one disappears. What you will notice if you try this (and what your friend and cousin would have seen) is that the client was constantly being connected/disconnected (this can be seen on the blue title bar of the client) for periods lasting about 10 seconds. If someone were trying to look at your cards by logging in as you, you'd certainly know about it. Not only that, but of course we have a record of the "ping-ponging" connection and the originating IP addresses. This situation as a security breach has never happened. What has happene many times is that people leave themselves logged in from one location (work, etc), then go home and find that their client won't stay connected. It's because our server is alternating between their two logins. In summary, it is NOT possible to be logged in from two places at once...the connection will flip back and forth. Also, I'm not too sure what this has to do with someone's ability to hack into your account? They'd need to know your password in the first place. As long as you haven't toldanyone your password, none of this can happen.Regards, Claudio Paradise Poker Technical Support-
rom: "Jim Mogal" Secondly, i mentioned hacking since I believe it would be fairly easy for someone to hack into my password and of so they could observe my play...although your imply in your that it would be apparent to me if someone else was logged in on my account at the same time I was. I will be copying this and our original correspondence to three of my friends who play on Paradise Poker and with whom I have discussed this. I am sending them blind copies since they have not given me specific permission to reveal to you who they might be....they may however after seeing your letter decide to write you on their own Thanks again....I off to change my password!!! Jim Mogal (RickG2)
To: "Jim Mogal" Hello, Jim. What your friend saw certainly can happen, but it's not as simple as two people being connected and watching. As I mentioned, only one of them at a time is actually connected. The other is offline until the connection switches back, thereby disconnecting the first person.
In summary, if someone figured out your password and then connected *while* you were playing: - they could see your cards in short bursts of about 10 seconds (but you'd be offline) - you would notice it because you'd constantly be going offline and the action buttons wouldn't be working right
I hope that's clear. I guess the real question you're trying to get to is: "could someone gain an advantage by seeing my cards while I'm playing if they knew my password?" The answer is not a clear "yes/no" because as soon as they connect, they'd see your cards... but you'd be knocked offline and unless they acted for you, you'd simply timeout and go all-in. There is NO WAY for them to connect and watch you play without you knowing about it.... things would be acting weird enough that you'd soon be sending us email asking if we're having server or connection problems. If someone knew your password, they'd be better of waiting until you're not playing and THEN logging in. However, hacking has not been a problem ever on our site, for a few obvious reasons: - we can tell where it came from (and therefore who did it) - we can tell where every penny went from every player and to every player It's not easy to steal money from a player... the money trail goes from start to finish. Hope that clears it up. If you (or they) have any further questions,pleasedon't hesitate to ask.Regards, Claudio Paradise Poker Technical Support
> >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Jim Mogal" Any comments??
Best regards
Jim Mogal (RickG2)
I just tried it, and you are certainly correct. I had a lot of server interruptions, but I could see the cards on both screens.
Interesting post, I would like to hear more from Paradise as to what they have to say about it and more importantly what they are doing to rectify this problem.
Thanks Jim. This is the kind of info. that I wish would appear more often in the forum. Not only do we now know that it is technically possible for someone to be seeing our cards, if we are careless with our password, but can also recognise the symptoms of such an intrusion.
If I read Paradise's response correctly, the reason for this functionality appears to be to enable us to "auto log-in" after a disconnection. I think that this the risk is reasonable in comparison to having to log-in again after every disconnection.
Think about it why should they ( paradise) miss a thing like this. Is should bee to get more money from you. Maybe some intern working on Paradise take your password see your cards and playing heads up on you ??
It could happen.??
I doubt it very much this happens.
Maybe an employee at the casino marks the deck of cards and tells his buddy who plays against you.
It could happen but I dn't think many are worried about it.
As Paradise mentioned, the whole idea of seeing hole cards is really irrelevent. If someone has your password they can just go in and plunder your account. Waiting to steal form you while you are playing doesn't make a lot of sense.
The only security breach is when someone knows your password. Surely we all already knew this.
Paul Talbot
I have stopped playing the tournaments at Paradise because I just don't think they are as profitable as regular ring games. I haven't kept very good stats on my tournament results but I definitely don't think I am keeping up with my hourly rate at the regular games.
I think tournaments are much more of a crap shoot. Especially in the latter parts of the tournament when the blinds are so big. I think tournaments are much more reliant on luck. I play in the $100 tournaments, so even if I get real lucky and get 2nd spot, I only win $191 ($300 prize minus my $100 entry fee and $9 fee) which is a lot less than I would win if I had a run of luck in a regular ring game. Of course the converse is true, if I have a run of bad luck the most I can lose is $109. Therefore, I think tournaments would actually be better for the worse players, although I think the bad players will continue to lose at tournamments as well.
I will occassionally play tournaments just for something different and they are fun to play in but not for profits.
What are other people's thoughts on this?
Yep you are right but this is ESPECIALLY true in the live tournaments. In European tournaments I calculated the relation BUY-IN/PRIZE MONEY and it's very often ridicolous; nevertheless I think in Paradise the relation buy-in/prize money is not so bad than in casino torunaments. The only tax you definitevely pay is the 10% fee, for the rest it's a "equo" play (except the $5 buy-in where the tax is 20%!). Yes, the luck factor, especially in the late stages is enormous and I noted that the chip-leader in the 90% of the times, when heads-up with an all-in player, wins even with bad cards---such 7-2 off or 5-9 ect (try to experiment this fact!) My opinion is the pp tourneys are funny but no good for a profit like all tournaments (except for the very good players) and a good approach for these tourneys is to play them very aggressive since the early stages so to build a big stack (in effect, I partecipate about 16-17 tourneys, winning 6 times, finished 2nd 1 time and 3rd 1 time and finished almost always 10th in the others) Marco
Marco, You're winning better than one out of three tournaments, in the money in a couple of others, and you think it's not profitable? Yes, I agree!! You should not play tournaments anymore! Or at least tell me your table name so I can steer clear of you... I have played in about 30 tournaments now, and have had considerable success, using a strategy unlike what has been posted here. I think they are way more fun than the live games. I keep records (which is easy since they'll send you results of all tournaments you're in if you ask) and I'll post here after I have some more meaningful numbers to report. Oh, and one small point, the "tax" on the $100 game is 9%, not 10% Aloha....Goatboy
Marco, One more thing. If you are playing in the $100 games, you are making more than $143 per hour! Yep. If i were doing that poorly I'd just shoot myself and end the agony. Actually, I'm not doing nearly that good but I'm going to struggle on for awhile! I'll buy you a squid muffin next time we play together! Aloha, Goatboy
Dear Goat-aloha, obvious I don't play at your level of $100, I play at 10 or 20.( and that's why I don't know the fee for that buy-in) And clearly I had a good rush of cards, however in live tournaments (when I was more stupid than now or maybe I had a lot of $$$) I won 1 major tournament and partecipated to TOC 1999. Ave
Marco....Sorry if it seemed like I was poking fun at you! Actually, I meant my posts as compliments. Obviously, you probably won't keep winning at your current rate, but I think you are underestimating yourself! Why not assume that you have found a winning strategy and keep pounding the suckers until you find out different? I'm just surprised at the posters who say, "I'm winning, but I'm going to quit because it's not profitable." I hope you're not influenced by those dopes who say tournament play is not "real" poker. If you're having fun, AND you're winning, what could be more "real" than that? Aloha...Goatboy
Goatboy, thanks for your punctualization. I hope to heard your comments about posts on this forum Sincerely, Marco
Hello again, Marco! Just to clarify, I don't play too many $100 tourneys, I mostly do the $30 or $50 ones. I wonder if people think there is more or less collusion in tourneys vs. regular play? I have seen little evidence of collusion in torunaments. I wonder if it is harder to get at the same table with a partner? Also, in other threads people have talked about running very good when they first start, and then getting bad beat to death once they are hooked on the game. Since you and I are both doing well in our first tournaments, I wonder if we will suddenly hit a brick wall? I will keep posting how things go for me in general. In my only tournament today, I placed second in a $50 game. I hope you keep at it. Maybe I'll see you at the final table in the WSOP next year! Aloha.......Goatboy
Hi clint,
I think that the tournies are fun. I think that the players are pretty bad, have no idea mostly how to play tournies (I played in $30 tournies).
The good: Steer clear of trouble early, you can free-roll a lot into 3rd with almost nothing. Against a decent lineup of course this is not true, but many lineups are terrible.
The bad: When you get there, the blinds are too high, go up too fast, and it is a complete crapshoot...
I await $50-100 multitable tournies with multispot payoff and reasonable blind movement. The chance to play for 3-4 hours against 100 others, and win $3-5k if playing well and getting lucky, this would be good online. I quit the PP tournies, even though I was winning, for 'the bad' reason.
Mark
The tournaments certainly can be profitable, whether better than the ring game depends on you. As a ballpark figure, I would rate the $100 torments roughly on a par with the 10/20 game. (Say $20 to $30 per hour a reasonable rate.)
I do not think the argument about the limits rising too fast holds up. The key is that there is not one tournament per day, but a continuous stream of them. This means that you can play several fast tournaments in the time it takes to play one slow tournament.
So the blinds rising quickly might reduce your edge in each individual paradise tournament, however as you play more tournaments, your overall rate is likely to be higher compared with one longer torment of a corresponding buy in.
“I think tournaments are much more of a crap shoot. Especially in the latter parts of the tournament when the blinds are so big.”
It takes skill to consistently get to the end stage of the tournament. This alone is a significant edge. However I think the skill factor in the later stages of a tournament is much higher than in a ring game. You have so much to think about, not just the cards and the players, but the blinds and stack sizes. Of course good play is often not going to save you from busting out to some suck out, but that is what makes Poker work.
I play live stud at medium-high limits. Not to overstimate me, but I'm a winning player. At paradise, i started play 2-4 and after 5 days I had about $850. In a moment of stupidity I ran in a 15-30 hold'em game (not my preferred game but i defend myself). The 2 first hands went me broke. First hand I had J-J and found 2 guys with Q-Q and A-A, 2nd hand I lost with A-Ks. Ok, I sayed, after losing my entire stack, hold'em is not my game. I purchased $50 only $50 for technical problems. I restarted playing stud 2-4 and after 4-8, winning some $10 tournament and after 3 days I built a bankroll of about $1100. Then, I cash-out 650 and continuing playing stud. When I had about $200 I was setup and jumped to 10-20. IN a good rush I rebuilt about $1150 (had straight flush vs full of aces and flush). Yesterday I prudently have come at 2-4 stud. Lose with rolled up trips, lose with straights, lose with flushes Ace high, lose even with full of Queens (vs quads of 2, one 2 exposing), I went to 4-8: same story. My bankroll suffered and I had about $400: no doubt I jumped to 10-20 and in not more than 15 minutes I lost my bucks. Questions: Is it paradise poker a site of SUPER RUSHES AND SUPER BIG BAD BEATS? I think it's a very good poker site but the ordinator begins to get me perplexed. Nevertheless, I heard on this forum these things happened to many other players. What do you think about? Tahnks, Marco
I'm not convinced it's much different than casinos, the only difference I have seen is streaks (good and bad)but I have not been playing all that long so I don't know if it is a short term thing or not.
You are not playing with enough money in your account to get past short term luck at any of the limits you describe. $1100 in a $10-$20 or $15-$30 game can go pretty quick. $200 bucks is enough for one buy in at $3-$6 but you made need more, $400 the same for $5-$10. To play $10-$20 or larger you are just relying on luck to get by without getting busted.
If you had ground it out at $2-$4 (then $3-6, $5-$10 and so on) until your on-line bankroll was large enough for the higher stakes, you wouldn't be asking this question. The streaks matter because of your limited bankroll. They really aren't greater than streaks in normal play.
Why not play until you have, say 5 grand and then cash out 1 or 2k (and repeat)? That way you'll have the money in your account to get past the streaks.
Paul Talbot
My short opinion? Live games, bad! Tournaments, good!! Have fun...live longer...Aloha
Marco,
Bon jour.
When I played I found that the SUPER RUSHES and SUPER BAD BEATS were amazing, and like nothing I had ever seen in real life, many years of casino play.
I think there are a few things going on:
1. Faster games means more money per hour, means that a 10-20 online might be more like a 20-40 live, etc. in terms of action. And players online at most levels are better, especially 10-20 and up, than live, where a live one from the craps table might wander over (or 3-4 of them might) and pay everyone off. Paradise's buyin rules preclude much of that.
2. You do not see the other players. I know that when I see people I can gauge more than online.
3. The lack of people-presence means that wild and stupid play will not be personally attacked or commented on. People sometimes play really stupid and win + it is easier to go on tilt.
etc etc
It is a game which you must change your style.
I found the stress of the ups and downs too much, so I quit: Every time I built a nice bankroll, I got hit with incredible bad runs, incredible suckouts against me, etc, I play for fun/challenge, money which is unimportant in my life, it was not fun when people hit ridiculous 1 outers 5 times in a row to kill 80% of my nice bankroll. When a guy hit his inside str8flsh runner runner draw on the river against my made nut flush: I quit. Maybe I am just unlucky.
I do look forward to large multi-table $50-100 buyin tournies though. I might play these.
Mark
Finally you give me good answers! I'm satisfied of all your comments (I . Taken individually: Talbot moves the questions to my short bankroll but I ask you: are you willing to lose about $1000 at 2-4 and 4-8 and 10 minutes of play at 10-20 in just about 1 hour of play even when you have a starting $10,000? That is, are you sure that in just 1 hour the variance falls on your shoulders so you lose with full, 2 straights, 2 rolled-up trips and with full of Queens? (remember we are talking about stud) It seems a little strange. Yes, on the other hand you can run in an incredible rush of good cards so I made about $1000 with a starting of $50, but this is the bottom line: Is it a good idea to play internet poker like live games armed with a large bankroll? Mark with his accurate dissertation has my same thought. He suffered like me 4, 5 bad beats in a row (for example, you reraise in 5th with a nut straight over a raise comin from a easy to read board---max 2 pair,almost never a rolled up trips, and TAK!! on the river they picked the ten to beat you with a better straight). Very good observations are: you dont know the opponents, when they outrun chasing with a stupid draw they laugh and laugh on the chat line so it's more yet easy for a player to go in tilt. MOreover, there is a great tendence to play weak hands and to bluff and semi-bluff in a greater rate than in live games and so you begin to play mediocre hands hoping to catch the miracle cards the opponents have just picked up. However, paraphrasing a title appeared here, I'm losing my sanity playing internet poker...... THanks of all appreciated comments By the way, as you can see in another post (about tournaments profit) I think tournaments are better than cash games. You know what you will win, you know (more important) what you will lose! NO surprise but you can afford a ten of tourneys and mantain happy the wallet.
Marco,
I stopped playing. I felt I was losing my mind too. So many strange things. It is probably me.
Mark
There is no doubt that online games are significantly different than live games. There are numerous legitimate and logical reasons to explain these differences.
The problem is that the games at Paradise have an unnatural feel. The flow of the cards is different. The betting can be extremely strange. The number of suck outs can be very high.
Planet does not have this unnatural feel. Unfortunately, Planet continues to have server problems and their user interface is not as nice as Paradise's user interface.
I suspect that Paradise's unnatural feel is caused by collusion and a problem with their dealing algorithms.
I am a small, but consistent winner at both Paradise and Planet. I will continue to play at both sites as long as I continue to win. I play my normal casino game at Planet. I make significant adjustments to my game when playing at Paradise.
If Paradise cleaned up their problems, I would play strictly at their site. If Planet solved their system and software deficiencies, I would play strictly at their site.
I ask too much if I would to say some of your adjustements when playing Paradise? Marco
Is something wrong with my computer? I have a cable modem and am able to connect to websites and the internet chess club without any problems but I find that i am frequently disconnected from paradise? Is it them or is it me?????
Thanks a lot
Its them,alot of people are having problems.Believe it or not Planet is going for smooth tonite for once.Its ususally the opposite.
Since I have quit playing online, I have been (a) Studying the high level players to understand the HE game better, and (b) trying to understand why i found the online game felt so different to me (and others) than casino. Since Paradise gives flops per hour and percent playing the flop, I have also been looking at game selection, and I wonder if other agree or disagree with some thoughts I've had:
1. Higher stakes: Seems like any time the players in higher stakes HE are playing at 25% or under, watch out, no fish there. Pretty obvious.
2. Low stakes: When the games are 40% (someone else posted this too), it seems like they are good. But here is something strange: I felt this when I played, and I saw it last night...when the percent hitting the flop is higher, like 50%, weird things happen, and it becomes more of a crapshoot. I looked for games at 50%, maybe this is when the wild swings would happen.
Here is an example, I wrote it down while watching a game at 50 or 55% taking the flop, 3-6 HE...anyone's comments would be welcome:
4 people call to the button, who raises, one of the blinds calls, 6 take the flop of QJ4, all offsuit. Limper bets, button raises, 4 total see the turn, of 3 offsuit. (QJ43o now). All check to button who bets. Same 4 see the river of 2. Now QJ432. Early player bets out, button makes an online comment about suckouts and calls, bettor shows 65o for the nuts, button sighs and shows QQ. Pot had 22-23 bb's.
Is early player crazy? What do the other 2 have? AK? Why didn't they raise pre-flop? Probably KT or T9? Or Jx? Does button have decent odds here against 6 taking the flop and 4 from there on? I think so, but I don't get it. Does early player know what is coming at the flop? What am I missing?
This is just an example from these high percentage games. I could give many examples from my own playing days online, but this one was last night and so strange.
thanks,
Mark
Mark, you post very interesting questions and answers. I assisted to a similar hand at 5-10 hold'em where with a board containing A-K and no flushes possible, the hand got until the river 7 (seven) callers. SHowdown: NO one has an Ace or a King or pocket pairs. However, can you analyze even some stud hand? Thanks, Marco
Marco,
See what TheCat says below: Collusion might be the reason!
And about stud, sorry: I stopped playing stud a long time ago. I do not analyse it...
Mark
Hi Mark,
I tend play on the loose side and generally prefer a game with numerous preflop callers. Casino omaha and hold'em games with 5 to 6 callers preflop are generally my most profitable games. I will usually look for the loosest and liveliest casino game in the range of 5/10 to 20/40.
My game selection and style of play at Paradise is significantly different. I avoid most of these high percentage games. I should avoid these games all together. These games are profitable for me in casinos and at Planet, but not at Paradise.
I think the problem in many of these games is that players are practicing collusion. Numerous suck outs are no longer so strange when you put players hands together and see what is really happening.
The problem is that even mediocre players can play like world champions when colluding. Paradise needs to actively address this problem like Planet did by hiring a poker authority.
FYI - You can request hand histories on games you are watching and see the hole cards of all players calling on the river. I've been following a couple of the better 20/40 hold'em players this way to see what I can learn.
Bill,
If you use the same handle there, I saw you playing at Omaha, I think it was 3/6. Looked like you were doing ok.
About collusion: Right. I hadn't thought of that. So the guy with QQ, playing against 3-4 colluders can only be helped by case Q, J, 4 or 3. If most other cards come out he loses, to straights that one of em has. So 2, 7 lose to the colluder with 65, etc. A, 9 lose to the colluder with KT, K or 8 lose to the colluder with T9. But while the colluders have many more cards between em, they are paying a lot to win the hand, and when a blank comes they lose a bundle; but also, I guess they don't know that Mr. Button has QQ and has made the set, which is the worst thing for them.
I *know* that I suffered the most in games with 50% or more...and did well with 35-45% taking the flop.
Thanks for the thought.
Mark
I can't imagine that the guy with 65o knew what the turn and river would bring, since you'd think if he did he would have bet the flop (presumably on a 'steal') and tried to build a bigger pot.
I agree, I think it is morely likely 2-3 colluders, with odds (bad deal) to win between em; assuming guy didn't have QQ, then the odds might even be good.
Also, if the 65o player knew what was coming (a hacker) he would never raise in advance, too obvious, they'd kick him off pronto.
And if he were a Paradise insider, also unlikely - why kill the golden goose -- he wouldn;t raise either: Someone raising with 65o and then winning this hand would send off big signals about insiders playing.
Mark
I am a new reader on this forum and I just started playing on paradise poker.In live play I usually play limits from 10-20 to 20-40.I have read previous posts of people saying if the games are 25% seeing the flop or less it is a tough game and no bargain.I was just wondering if some of the readers could tell me a few names of the really good players who play at these limits on paradise.I have been watching the games for a little bit but would love some insight of who other players think are the really good players.Bascically who are the players that make these games tough?
I'm a pretty strong low limit player (that's all that's offered in my local casinos) and I was thinking of trying some online poker. I would like to hear some experiences (both good and bad) before I try some of my bankroll online. Are there any really good sites; and bad ones for that matter? Is the skill of players really varied? Any security problems? I've heard of people playing w/ more then one computer; does this happen much? I appreciate any and all responses. Thanks in advance.
save your money. Play live poker instead.
I have been playing at Planet Poker since 4/99. I have the utmost confidence in the efforts of Mike Caro and Roy Cooke to maintain the cleanest online poker room anywhere. The convenience of online poker is almost addictive and I've heard from a few people they had to quit because they spent every waking hour playing poker. But, it's fun, it's easy, it's smokeless, tokeless and cheaper than live.
Give it a try. www.planetpoker.com
Dear JaNT 1 year ago in that site I lost with a quads of 3 vs a quads of 8!!!!!!!!!! If I lived in California now I stayed in Montecarlo in a luxury suite!!!!!!!!! This is a real bad beat Jackpot. The hand? Started with 3-3 I found a flop of 3-3-8, turn 8, river another 8: WINNER: a guy who holded A-8 offsuit. No talking when I lost with A-A at 20-40 against a guy who call me with 7-2 suited. flop: A-3-4, turn 5, river 6. Lol. These are reALLY (and strange) BAD BEATS. Marco
I have played at poker.com for a month and it is fun. I won the high hand jackpot one day for $250 with a royal flush. I only got $19 from the real hand.
Some frustration with poker.exe program bugs. It is not well debugged I think.
There support is responsive.
The game at end gets too quick too see winner.
I probably will get out to see how there withdraw goes and try paradise which seems like it has been around longer.
It is adictive, fun, at home or at a friends house on her computer same money. It is smokefree as previous
Does anyone remember the name of the site that logged all the names of paradise players and provided stats.I think it was the time that aslan was booted out of paradise for credit card fraud.I thought it had something to do with the word analyzer -I dont know -does anyone remember?
My friend who played full time at Paradise during summer holidays sent them, after exchanging some emails, hand histories. They promised to pay $5 for every 500. He still is waiting for money. No answer for last emails. I think posters here were right. I was a scam.
Zbych,
.
I love too much poker (as all you) to avoid a discussion about this problem. Even a stupid can take an account and having a friend with canother one. Now they play both in a 10-20 stud or 20-40 hold'em and communicating their hole cards by a cellular phone. THis is too easy. But is it profitable? Put the expenses of the phone calls (and the boring problem), put the taxes of antes, blinds, etc. What's their edge? I think it's marginal. Another side of problem. I heard players who had 2 accounts or playing contemporaryly with 2 screens, or, worst, 4 players playing in a internet cafe at the same table showing themselves their hole cards. But, in the long run, is it profitable? I omit the cases where a fellow shows his password. We must be serious, is it possible to set up a profitable collusion in order to have a very good advantage? Or internet poker is for people who loves poker and are forced to play internet poker because they stayed far by casinos, poker-rooms, etc? I still have a doubt (I'm not of paradise staff, :)), but I have to say that in 1 hour I won 1000 bucks (lost in 15 minutes the day after...) As I many times explained, I'm still in doubt. The sole cure is observing the high stakes games (I think the only who can show a collusion) and take the conclusions. UNfortunetely, after 1 year of observation, I never had had a tip to realize that internet poker is colluded. What do you think about? Thanks, Marco
There is little doubt that some collusion takes place. Players instant messaging have no extra expenses. However expert colluding is even harder than expert playing as David Sklansky explained and showed with a few hypothetical examples. Your danger level in running into players who are both good players and good colluders is probably fairly small. Many would-be cheats are not even good players and you may be able to beat them anyway.
I think if you employ good game selection tactics and stay away from tough games or any really odd players whom you think may be colluding, you should still do fine (assuming you can beat the game anyway).
David Sklansky did make some great points about collusion. There is little doubt that DS was correct in his conclusions that expert collusion can be more difficult than expert play.
However, the important question is do colluders gain an advantage over their honest opponents? I believe the answer is yes. How much of an advantage do they gain? I believe that it is enough to turn winning players into losing players.
Consider the following: 1) Good players win at the rate of 1 to 2 big bets per hour in typical casino games. 2) It is to easy for colluders to save bets by folding hands preflop that they would normally play. 3) It is to easy for colluders to save bets by folding to their partner’s better hand on the flop that they would normally play. 4) It is to easy to gain extra bets with monster hands by having your partner bet or raise. 5) Colluders can make better decisions on playing their drawing hands. They can win extra pots and save bets by folding. 6) Colluders table image will be distorted by their unusual plays. 7) Colluders can use computer simulators while playing to help them take advantage of the extra card information.
There are just too many simple and easily recognizable ways for colluders to save bets and win extra chips. IMO a 3 or 4 person team of mediocre players would gain enough of an advantage to make the game unbeatable by good honest players. It is just to easy for colluders to eat up that 1 to 2 big bet per hour advantage.
True but...when DS gave those quiz questions it became apparent to me that the correct answer may often not fall into the simple categories you mention. For instance it could be correct to play even when the partner has a better hand or when there is some duplication in the cards held. I was quite surprised.
I agree that many of the correct plays are not simple, but a significant percentage are easily identifiable. Good players only have a 1 to 2 big bet per hour advantage. IMO colluders don't need that many oppurtunities to destroy a good players edge.
Cat:
Your post also describes how colluders can actually cost themselves money!
2) It is to easy for colluders to save bets by folding hands preflop that they would normally play.
This statement is not true. First off if two colluders are playing out of the same bankroll, then when colluder A folds to colluder B his partner he has not saved a bet at all.
In fact the mere act of colluding had cost them a bet. Picture this: If I am colluding with a partner, and I see that my hand is dominated by my partners and I fold as you suggest. Then our colluding has cost us a bet. If the same cards had been played by a non-colluder then the non-colluder would have called, possibly even bet. The fact they were colluding has cost them money.
3) It is to easy for colluders to save bets by folding to their partner’s better hand on the flop that they would normally play.
Same thing as previous point.
4) It is to easy to gain extra bets with monster hands by having your partner bet or raise.
This is how colluders can gain a tremondous edge, this is also how they can be caught. I would hope that when the online site see repeated raising then a fold by the same few players that they investigate.
You make some good points. Colluders will sometimes being colluding against themselves. The question that concerns me is how often does a team of colluders have the opportunity to take advantage of the other players. IMO the gains against the other players will significantly exceed the scenario's you've identified. Good players only have a 1 to 2 big bet per hour advantage over the table. IMO colluders could easily neutralize the good players edge.
I give you a lot of credit for your insights and posts in general, Jodder, but I believe you may wish to rethink this.
You wrote:
"This statement is not true. First off if two colluders are playing out of the same bankroll, then when colluder A folds to colluder B his partner he has not saved a bet at all.
In fact the mere act of colluding had cost them a bet. Picture this: If I am colluding with a partner, and I see that my hand is dominated by my partners and I fold as you suggest. Then our colluding has cost us a bet. If the same cards had been played by a non-colluder then the non-colluder would have called, possibly even bet. The fact they were colluding has cost them money."
To see this error, just flip the picture. You are thinking the bet not gained is not also saved. But it all depends on which hand you are looking at. Colluder A is losing a bet that could have been gained but colluder B is saving a bet in your scenario. Not to mention that since you consider that the outsider might have been the one calling with a dominated hand there are also times when the outsider would have the dominating hand.
However, the intricacies, as Sklansky showed, go way beyond merely saving bets when dominated or applying the big squeeze.
Re: The Cat: I agree that colluders can cost good players money. However it is very easy for them to screw up. Yes, winning players have a slim margin which can be eroded. But in all but the simplest of collusion scenarios, I don't think I have to worry much, because, again, I was highly surprised at some of the answers months ago to Sklansky's Collusion Quiz. If many of the best players/minds on this forum suggested the wrong plays, I feel I need fear only expert colluders who are also good players--and I feel that is a rare bird indeed, let alone a flock. However that doesn't mean I won't keep a weather eye when playing online.
The most obvious method of collusion is one that is easily detecible for the on-line cardroom. If you and I are colluding and you have a good hand, we want to trap someone between us with raises. However, if I have crap, this will look very sucpiscious to the on-line card room which can see everyone's cards (unlike a regular cardroom). This actually makes it harder to get away with colluding on-line than in casino play.
I think the problem is that the card rooms don't track such plays so you will have to bring it to their attention. If you do so, the cardroom can look at the suspected players cards and see if it is possible. The card room can then go back and look at everyhand those two players have ever played together.
If you trust that the on-line room will do this then I don't think you have too much to worry about. If you don't trust the cardroom to do this, you shouldn't be playing there in the first place.
Paul Talbot
The trick is to avoid them. Here is what I do.
I try to find the game with the fewest recognizable players. This is always the best game anyway.
It also insures I'm not playing against people who are ALWAYS at the same table. (I see this a lot.)
My presence at the game changes the game dynamic within an hour. The average plaers/flop drops just because my play has encouraged others to tighten up. So after about an hour I'm looking for an easier table. I figure If I keep switching tables that this reduces my chances of staying with colluders over a long period of time.
Think
The problem with the collusion debate is that one huge reality has not been addressed, this is a new paradigm folks and changes in THINKING PREMISES need to happen, and the first is that collusion in the internet age doesn't take more than ONE person. Let me repeat that, ONE SINGLE person is all it takes for collusion. I can use two computers in my room to log on two different Paradise accounts from differnt ISP and DNS address. One with my DSL account and the other with my old FreeNet account. I can open a second Paradise account with my buddy's credit card under a different name and address. And there u go, I can play two hands at a single table. This fact would be untraceable and undetectable by the host, as the two accounts would be logged in from different IP address, and routed through different servers to different TCP ports. This is untraceable and undetectable and unprovable at the least (i.e. my roomate is allowed to log in to Paradise too isn't he?) The easiest way to define this as being profitable, is that if collusion profitable in live games, it is twice as good when there is NO ONE to have to split profits with, being able to see and play both hands, nad no one watching you. SO even without expert play one can gain a huge edge in thier winning rate period. I have heard no mention of this idea on this forum or elsewhere but I'm sure I'm not the first to think it. And I'm sure it's being done. I scoff at the theories of internet cafes and college libraries with huge ring scams going on. All it takes is just one Sklansky and two computers to get your money. I just want to clarify that I have NEVER done this and I DO NOT BELIEVE that Sklansky has either, i was just making a point. Let the debate on this begin.....
P.S. If i read one more post mention using cellular phones to collude I'll lose my mind. Anyone that would put effort into this would have direct high speed connections such as Cable or DSL, and simply use thier home phone, so no cellular fees yada yada yada. ANd they would most likely use a chat IM progrram like Yahoo's or ICQ that are free with all that extra bandwith to spare. A program like NetMeeeting would even allow u to view your colluding partners desktop, and even control it remotely.
Good post.
Mark
.
This has been discussed extensively, you may want to check the archives.
I have not read or taken Sklansky's quiz on collusive play. I do however believe it may be flawed do to the sheer nature of it's premise. What I believe we have here is a failure to get back to the basics involving collusive play. We now have, thanks to Sklansky, a table of hands. We know that so and so is a group whatever hand and play according to proven strategy. If we take two of those hands, in the same game what is the proper way to maximaize bets and not be detected? That is the puzzle to expert collusive play....or is it?
The problem I see is that we talking about playing hands that were mathematically and statiscally proven to win X percent of the time BY THEMSELVES. Then adjusting those hands to play collusively. I propose that is there is a whole ENTIRE NEW TABLE of starting HANDS calculated for collusion, and a seperate distinct way to play those hands. Sklansky or Caro most likely could develop the algorithms and run simualtions with perfect play and determine these hand groupings. They did with the original hands. I am willing to bet that it can SIGNIFICANTLY increase a players win rate, especially when played online with two computers by yourself.
Of course I do not believe that Caro or Sklansky would put the time and effort into developing that table, for it would be the brainchild of pure evil. I do not believe it should ever exist (if it doesn't already)there is no reason to develop the perfect system for cheating the game we all love, hate, love again.
I have some views on how we can fight collusion I will post a little later
Perhaps you should read what I wrote first. What is that they say about p[eople who "assume"?
I didn't read the quizes because I couldn't locate them with a simple search in the archives. I searched for messages with the text "collusion expert play" "collusion starting hand" "collusion hand value" "collusion quiz" I tried to search for messages posted by Sklansky. It is a very time consuming process to wade through these archives.
I don't usually give out his type of advice for free, but maybe you should modify the search engine so one could use both buttons in a search (i.e. Posted By and containing so and so text) :)
I'm sure you will have a smart ass comment to belittle me DS, but thats what makes it fun, bring it on.
You title a post with the statement that something you guessed I wrote was wrong, but I never wrote any such thing. To chide you for that is perfecly reasonable.
I knew I was asking for it when I wrote that post, I may be new but I've been around long enuff to know that DS is NEVER wrong. I just happen to enjoy your smart ass remarks.
In all seriousness that post was to bring up a concept I had never seen (in the past month or so) on this forum, while it may be old news, David, please answer these questions. A list of simple yes/no answers would suffice. Is there a hand table specifically designed for collusion? If yes, hypothetical or have you seen it? Can it yield greater than the 1.5 BB per hour when played solo? Is the play really that much harder to apply then what is in HPFAP? Is there any chance of revising the archive search engine? Thanks in advance.
If you could provide me with
If there is some confusion over the word 'quiz' in this context, I may be partially to blame because, as the threads below developed, I took to using 'quiz' as a short condensation for the hand collusion questions DS posed and later answered. He did not give a 'quiz' as a test of covered material; rather he merely posed a few hypothetical questions which the forum tried to answer (and answered rather poorly, myself included).
If you look in the archives you may do better to look under 'collusion question #1'; 'collusion question #2'; etc., or something like that.
Gator,
Both regarding DS's collusion quizzes and other Internet topics: much of what you bring up has been discussed extensively in the archives. You might find it worthwhile to actually wade through a fair amount of the material (no light task) as doing so would give you some pertinent background for these and other related discussions. Doubtless you will have some worthwhile perspectives to contribute, but with more background knowledge of what has already been discussed you are less likely to merely repeat old or hackneyed discussions.
You are absolutely correct, I started looking through the archives (see recent post above) and am seeing that a lot of this has been discussed before, however its all new to me, I have only been playing online and checking this forum for about as month.
Wading through the archives is more than an arduous task, however, and I'd rather risk repeating and old idea then spending the time researching old views.
Maybe in the ever changing and growing information age these concepts need to be updated and rediscussed, and I'm sure there are more newbies like my self that can offer a unique perspective that i won't find in the archives anyway. My approach to new posts however should change as to reflect this idea.
It is not just to avoid repetition that you might wish to peruse the archives (to whatever extent you might care to). You might actually find some of the information valuable.
Also, many of the posters such as myself who have participated extensively in the old discussions may have little inclination to merely repeat past discussions with everyone new who comes along and raises the same questions. This is a common scenario.
I don't doubt you will bring some fresh and interesting perspectives and this would be welcome; I am just suggesting that a modest perusal on your part might be both interesting and informative to you, as well as increasing the likelihood of your raising points that more posters would care to explore with you.
Welcome to the Forums.
Read this forum for 10 minutes and you will read 100 arguments about Paradise Poker (PP). The opinions and theories range tremendously, however it is chaotic. Throughout history people have come up with many ideas to explain what was unexplainable at that time, hence we had civiliztions of people who believed in magic wiches, spirits, gods and demons, the world was flat, and the earth was the center of the universe. All attempts to explain things they could see or experience but didn't understand. That is what is going on here, we have this new technology in internet poker and people are forming irrational conclusions on little scientific evidence. That is why one person will jump in and declare this must be the work of crooks and Costa Rican mafia, and another puts the blame in software design. Only through a scientific approach can we begin to solve some of these problems. I hope there will be plenty of replies to this and we can establish some logical possibilies and hopfully answers. At the least we can STANDARDIZE the arguments. First we need to DEFINE the problems at large. Those i see on this forum are (1) "The cards are not random" (2) Paradise's credibility (3)Collusion First, as a business, I don't think there is a single shred of evidence that Paradise has ripped anyone off. They pay their accounts and they have excellent customer service. I do not see this as a legitamite complaint. Can we all agreee on this? Second, collusion, does not have anything to do with PP internally, so it is not valid complaint about PP either. These should be pretty much accepted opinions throughout the forum, standard answers for newbie questions. That leaves a problem in the cards. Everything from too many quads to bad beats, rigged for high cards, rigged to give new players and advantages, name it here. Looking at this logically you a software dicrepency, and this can be either only one of two things, INTENTIONAL or ACCIDENTAL. Random # generating code is fairly simple (4 lines in a BASIC program) the chances that there is a mistaken code in the program that is causing abbherent hands is most likely invalid. That would mean PP has intentionally desinged thier software for any of the above purposes. The question any detective would ask here is WHY?, What is the motive? Duh, you say, to make more MONEY!! But HOW would too many quads or bad beats make money for the house? Any other motives? What I suggest is that anyone with a theory post here with what they believe is happening (i.e. too many face cards) and how this would benefit Paradise Poker or how it would generate more income. It may sound like I support or work for Paradise Poker, I don't. I have seen things I can not deny. Streaks, Quads, 6-8 and the like. I think there may be rational explanations, like the #hands per hour combined with loose play and collusion. Basically I'm in Paradise Poker Pergutory, I live in FL with no live poker, and have no outs. I want to play, but need some validation. If we can figure out what is going on then we can move on to developing stratigies for winning in this internet enviornment.
Been playing at paradise for awhile. Have seen some strange things at some sittings then seen nothing strange at all no quads. I dont know thats all i am trying to say is that i dont think it is paradise.
JMHO billy b
What I think is happening to many people is that they have been biased to look for anything that is strange in on-line poker but not in live games. What they tend to do is to remember only what supports their scheme that on-line poker has strange card distributions.
I tried an experiment on myself at a home game that I know to be good. I said to myself; "I'm going to believe that for some reason the dealer doesn't shuffle good enough". That night I saw many more three flush flops than I normally remember seeing. I was dealt more Pocket Aces than I normally get and they all held up.
Not the most scientific experiment, but it's something to think about.
CV
Gator:
I agree 100% with the sentiment of your post, I do take exception with the area where you absolve Paradise with any resposibility for collusion.
"Second, collusion, does not have anything to do with PP internally, so it is not valid complaint about PP either. These should be pretty much accepted opinions throughout the forum, standard answers for newbie questions.
Collusion is a valid complaint about Paradise or any other on-line card room. The role of any card room be it on-line or live is to provide a fair game and for that we pay them a rake or drop. It is their responsibility to take whatever means they can to ensure the game is fair.
Specifically regarding collusion; I believe they have to activily seek out collusion and stop it. Their responsibility not only ends with stopping or reducing collusion, but it also has to address the perception of collusion.
This is where Paradise has failed miserably.
Their web page has a couple paragraphs where they state they are aware of collusion and are taking steps to reduce it, yada yada yada. How effective is their attempts? How many colluders have they detected? How specifically are they monitoring?
It is because of their lack-luster approach to addressing the collusion issue that their are so many concerns regarding collusion and that contributes to many people's feeling to integrity as a whole towards Paradise.
Case in point:
Paradise is currently the leader in the on-line poker industry, they have more clients, more tables running then all other sites combined. Their software and interface is far superior to any other site. They offer more game variety then most other sites. They offer tournaments, many other sites do not. Their systems are generally more stable then others. For these reasons alone I can't see how Planet or Highlands should even exist any more.
Albeit for one thing: Marketing. Planet has Caro; Highlands has Doyle. Two hugely respected individuals who are not only known for their skills, but also their integrity.
I firmly believe that Paradise does actively seek out colluders and I also believe that they probably have better software to automaticly red-flag potential collusion. (They have demonstrated better software and stability everywhere else). Yet their credibilty is next to nothing, especially compared to Highlands and Planet.
As I indicated, I do believe that Paradise is probably just as active at stopping or reducing actuall collusion as any of the other sites. But they have done nothing to reduce the PERCEPTION of collusion and/or other forms of cheating. Thus, their whole integrity is questioned.
All the integrity critism they receive, though probably undeserved should be expected.
n/t
at the risk of major flaming, i have heard that paradise's software is hackable, therefore creating a bias for those doing the hacking. I do not know if it is true, but just throwing it out for discussion.
There has never been a single piece of software created that is hacker proof. It is the nature of programming code that there is always a way to modify that code (an anti-code u might say). The trick is having the talent/time/resources to do it. The program that sits on your machine for PP (or any) is just a shell, that accepts instructions from the server. The hacker would have to get into the PP server itself. I'm sure thier network security is top notch making it almost impposible for "just any hacker". Do you think if someone was able to breech the system, they would waste time playing and cheating? NO they would go straight for the credit cards and cash and route it to themselves or something simillar. Hope you r enlightened some by this mike.
Paradise are not deliberately biasing their dealing algorithm.
Why do I say this.
Because they provide easily parasable hand histories, which anyone with sufficient knowledge can feed into a database and analyse the results. If there is a bias it WILL be noticed eventually, and fairly soon too. By noticed I mean someone will have enough evidence to convince a panel of Statistics experts that their dealing algorithm is bias.
Paradise Poker not have to do this. The other sites don’t.
The only way Paradise can be considered to behaving rationally is if they are not doing anything to bias their dealing algorithm. They might of course have made a genuine mistake and there is a problem with their dealing algorithm, which they have not noticed yet. I have seen no evidence for this yet. The large number of complaints about excess quads or whatever the latest fad is, does not constitute evidence. I would expect this independent of whether the Paradise dealing algorithm is sound or not.
Of course this does not mean there aren’t paradise employees playing when they can see all the cards. Unlikely but at least plausible.
There is certainly collusion going on, the only question is how much and how to combat it. There are a lot thieves in London, but is this a reason never to visit the city?
.
I really believe a "GENUINE MISTAKE" is very unlikey. In going in to this business, I'm sure their random # generating code was subjected to a statistical analysis (compared to real world expectation) somewhere in the development phase. It is the heart of the game itself.
IF (big IF) the code is not legit, I don't belive there is an "Error" per say.
(1) "The cards are not random"
I have posted actual card counts showing that card distributions on the board are biased. The card bias is more significant than I expected to find. Is this bias normal? I don't know. I was hoping someone on this forum might be able to address that issue.
(2) "Paradise's credibility "
I don't doubt Paradise's credibility. I still play and win at Paradise. There is no evidence to even suggest that they are doing anything dishonest.
(3) "Collusion First, as a business"
IMO Paradise needs to aggressively address collusion like Planet has with the use of a real poker expert to control collusion. Paradise has a much bigger potential problem with collusion than Planet, because of their significantly higher volume of play. Colluders can cycle in and out of games against a much larger player base making detection more difficult.
I agree with most part of comments. I don't think Paradise (or other sites) but especially Paradise for his volume of plays have to drive the play in a not-honest way. THey earned, earn and will earn a lot of money. Many friends of mine, very good players, overall honest players, have won at Paradise more than $10,000 each. A consideration: No one player in this forum complained about heads-up games. I heard the random distribution goes bad in multiway tables but not in 2 players table. Strange. The sole system to notice collusion play is to observe and to register the hands won (et even some hand lost) by the high table players: if someone adopts collusion, is it worth the risk playing at lower limits? But, unfortunetely, our complaints come from low-medium tables (in the majority of the time). For a period of 3 days, I observed the winning hands at 10-20 tables of 7-stud: winning hands, in the 90% of the times, were, as we expected from statitistics, big pairs (splitted or in the hole) or two pair. Never seen great hands or great bad beats (is it because I'm out of the games?---lol) Marco
(1) What do you propose as a possible reason that the cards are biased?
(2) This is very important. U say u have posted card bias. What exactly is the bias u mention. And what are the facts we should know as to why this biasis is legit. (i.e. How was the data gathered?, what was sample population? Who gathered the data? Where the data was gathered from? When it was gathered? What limits, what games? What times? What the reason the data was gathered in the first place?
Basically to accept your statement that the cards are in fact biased we need to be able to REPRODUCE, and reproduce over and over again the same results for them to have any signigicant interpretation.
I am not picking on you, this is how we can get things straight. If u can't produce this information, where is the validity of your statement?
Gator,
Cat ran the analysis on the 4.5 million hands which PARADISE themselves POSTED. I ran some analysis too. You can too: download flops.zip fromm www.paradisepoker.com. These are real boards, untouched by human hands. Check some of your saved hands, you will find they are there correctly, Cat did this.
His analysis is correctly done, and there are more low cards on board than one might expect, but there is an explanation to this. It is simply that hands which never get to the flop (15% if I remember) are low card rich, and the boards WOULD HAVE BEEN hard card rich. Thus low card rich boards are what you see. I believe this is great information, but their dealing algorithm is fine in my opinion. I posted some thoughts about why this is useful info a couple of week back.
About the randomness, aside from more low cards, there are correct numbers of flushes, trips, quads etc on the boards. I posted this here too, look for it in the archives. Much more than I want to re-post, it is there for the reading, and it is also from 4.5 Million boards. (I helped TheCat offline to get this data).
With all of that said, I have been keeping track of some strange stuff which I have seen, and I also agree with TheCat: Collusion is the issue, probably the only issue. See his posts on this too, they are first rate, clear, and make a compelling case in my mind for collusion being a major problem.
Mark the K
PS They should hire TheCat to do collusion analysis. ARE YOU READING THIS AT PARADISE? If so, you will do yourselves and some of the players a favor by taking this free advice. He is one smart guy.
This is part of what I am getting at. You say that the flop cards are not what is "EXPECTED". How do you define "expected"?
What I think you mean is that if you randomly drew 3 cards from 52, a two has an equal chance of hitting the flop as a king. But this is not what u have interpreted from the Paradise data, thus not being the "expected" result.
However in reality not every hand goes to the flop and a lot more never go past it. You are on to this and offer it as an explanation as to why the results aren't what is expected. It may seem a matter of semantics (it's not) but if u consider what hands players may start with and what cards are out there when a flop does show. This data my ACTUALLY be the EXPECTED result.
I don't know of any simulation or analysis that has ever been developed as to decide what is an "expected" flop for various types of games (loose, tight, average) it would be very difficult. But that is what theCat is doing, a
Does internet poker all but killed Home Games ????? I miss a good home game with some rich but weak players.....I live near San Francisco.
Home games are alive and well in Houston.
If you find a good home game in the SF area, let me know ..... ;)
I am sitting here, heart pounding in my chest, adrenaline rushing. And I am angry as hell. I used to play Paradise Poker. I quit when I got tired of seeing what I believed to be too many big hands and too many miracle cards hitting the river. I even deleted their program from my computer, determined that I should stick to live play. Well here it is, Saturday..Thanksgiving weekend, weeks after I last visited Paradise's site and I was cruising MIRC..which is a chat program online. I have a script that monitors any new connections linking to my computer. My script notifies me that a new connection has been detected and then gives me the DNS report..which identifies the culprit.
*** DNS report for: *** Address: 196.40.4.149 *** Resolved: cardroom1.paradisepoker.com
Imagine my surprise. Can someone explain to me why they are monitoring people like this? It disturbs me to think that I can be shadowed without my permission, and had I not had a monitoring script, without my knowledge.
Thanks for any input into this dilemma.
Undoubtedly you are aware that mostly every program out there today leaves marks in your Windows registry, even when the program is "uninstalled" or deleted. (I don't suggest u modify your registy at all, if you are not an expert, u could screw your system big time).
This "tag" left in your system would identify your machine if Paradise was sending out pings or port probes, which I'm guessing is what your script detected, NOT an actual connection.
As to why Paradise is probing mIRC (if this is the case) I am unsure of that. I GUESS that they may be monitoring to see if online players are connected to IRC at the same time as they play. A possible way to help detect possible collusion considering the size of IRC and popularity. It may give them a lead, which is good for us online players, it shows an active effort to identify these chaters.
If it is just a probe or ping is quite benign, u have nothing to be paranoid about, as it is just a "bot" gathering data, they don't care about you in the least.
You should e-mail the webmaster at PARADISE and ask them why they have pinged your machine. Since this can be construed as an invasion of privacy, I'm sure they will provide u with an explanation. I am very interested in hearing what they say. If you saved your script provide them with all that info (time, DNS adress....)so they can track it.
I understand and applaud any and all efforts to track and combat collusion. But this is not the case. I had closed my account and deleted the program entirely from my computer. I am just flabbergasted that they are involved in tracking players online activity that are not actively using their program. Surely they were not tracking me in any effort to monitor collusion of players. It is offensive to me to know that I am being monitored..period, and I just wanted to post this discovery to see if anyone else was aware of this disturbing practice.
Instead of trying to recreate the hysteria from your first post, you should try to adress the issues at hand. I'm afraid you read my response and in went right out the window. Please comment on the following
(1) I don't know how much you actully understand about computer files. For all I know you may have just erased the shortcut on your desktop. Did you add/remove programs from the control panel? Did you delete the PARADISE folder from your Windows Explorer? Did you re-fomat your drive? Did you manually go in and remove entries from the registry? (Do you know what the registry is?) What I'm attempting to get at is that Paradise was not tracking YOU, but more it's software. It recognized from your system from entries during installation. It did not know you closed your account untill it reaches the database.
(2)Have u contacted Paradise? If not why? If you genuinely took the effort to write a message here, why not one to the people that have the real answers? Their reply could settle the whole issue. I for one am very concered about this revelation. Please contact tehm and post thier response here! There is some very noteworthy info here if there is any truth to this. Their address, I believe, is support@paradisepoker.com P.S. I you don't, I will. Show us that you have some legit concern and don't just like to see your name posted on message boards.
Gator, In your first response you used the word "paranoia". In your second response you use the word "hysteria". I resent the implications and I discard them out of hand. I am advising this forum of the fact that I am being tracked by Paradise Poker weeks after closing my account there. For whatever reason, their technology is able to locate where I am on the internet at any given time AND does so. That anyone can track me without my permission troubles me. I will take steps with my ISP to terminate their snooping activity. I have no hidden agenda here. I like online poker, but if I don't feel comfortable with their software randomness then I am not going to patronize their establishment. I also feel that when I closed my account there all tracking, unauthorized as it is, should cease. I am troubled by your confrontational response to my post. Why you end your post attacking me is bewildering too. I am not here to argue with anyone. I was just posting an experience that left me very upset and decided to share it by posting it in this forum. Hope your week-end goes well.
1. The fact that you may have been pinged or that you may even still have the software going in the background for all we know and paradise is updating the tables, players/flop, etc. does not meant that they are "tracking" you.
2. I don't know of any other way to say this, but if your handle on pp was desire and you played 50/1 and 2/4 stud, you weren't losing because of randomness issues, you're way to agressive on 3rd street and way too passive after.
Desire, I don't understand why you don't simply take an intelligent suggestion from Gator and contact support@paradisepoker.com with your concern. Everytime I have ever had a problem, they responded in a timely fashion. Is it that you would rather maintain this emotion of distrust, rather than getting a logical explanation for this unwanted contact? Think about it.
I am totally set back by the responses to my post. I did not expect to attract the hostility and sarcasm that apparently my post has generated. I only outlined what I found to be quite odd and intrusive behavior by Paradise. Also I truly believe they have randomness issues and because I believe that to be the case I have chosen not to patronize their site. If anyone else agrees with me or not is a moot point. If you like the cards the way they seem to fall at Paradise then good luck to you and enjoy. I am not trying to detract from their site. I don't care whom plays there. It just puzzles me why you would mess with the goose laying the golden eggs unless one would be purely motivated by greed. Whatever the reason, I am sorry I posted at all.
Desire, the simple fact that you were threatened by my response and interpreted it as an attack is enough proof to me that you have some serious paranoia issues.
The fact that you still have not adressed a single issue I asked proves to me you are an idiot.
OK, that was an attack.
Your statement: "For whatever reason, their technology is able to locate where I am on the internet at any given time AND does so" caused me to literally burst out laughing for two minutes. You, my friend, are clueless.
It is common practice for all types of business to track their clients on the web, just a fact of life. They may want to see if you, as well as many others, have began to play at another sight and win back your business.
If this practice didn't occur, quite often, you probably wouldn't have the capability to find out when someone was pinging you. That's the very reason you have the software in the first place, because it happens all the time.
Is PP the only place that you did business with and pinged you?
I know for a fact that Microsoft does it all the time.
I am not attacking you at all but simply trying to put it in perspective.
Thank you for a response without hostility, CJC.
The only other sites that my script has ever picked up pinging me are my ISP and the server that I am connected to a site with. And both of those ping quite frequently. Also the occasional lamer trying to nuke me off the net is identified via nukenabber and Zone Alarm and that is the reason I had downloaded these programs initially. I have never picked up a tracking ping from Paradise prior to that one incident and my script is running the whole time my computer is up and online. If they had pinged me as a regular practice, to track their users and whatever, it would not have drawn a second glance from me at all. In fact I would have rather expected them to. The only time my program picked up the DNS was the other day when I posted and it had been many days if not weeks since I had closed my account there. It was troubling to me and still is. But the staunch defenders of their site have left me sorry I ever posted my observation and I wish I hadn't in retrospect.
n/t
desire,
Go to the Two plus Two site.
Move from forum to forum until you see one of the Paradise Poker ads containing the number of players currently online and note the number.
Run netstat. For those who don't know how: open a DOS box and type netstat; you will see a list of all the connections your computer currently has open.
If cardroom1.paradisepoker.com:80 is listed, keep trying netstat until the connection closes. If cardroom1.paradisepoker.com:80 is not listed, move from forum to forum until you see a Paradise ad with a different number, then run netstat again.
Terry
If you are on dial up then your IP most likely changes every time you connect to the internet.
If you live in a large city and someone else is playing Paradise, they may have the IP of 152.22.18.208 Let's say they get disconnected somehow. Right when they get disconnected you happen to be connecting to your ISP and get assigned the IP 152.22.18.208 Paradise notices a disconnection and tries to ping that IP to see if the person is online or not. Yes, that IP is online, but it now belongs to you. Stranger things have happened.
Also, a PING doesn't allow them to track what you do on the internet. If you don't understand what PING does, open an MS-DOS window and type PING www.twoplustwo.com This will show you exactly how much "tracking of your online activity" they can do with a PING. It shows the latency of one server to another.
Yep, and the other possibility, is that when another user dissconnects or is trying to connect or is getting thier table updated, the PP server likely pings out the info over the network, usually by the first 3 chars in your DNS, that number is based on your server/geography, so if someone else from your area or ISP is on PP at the same time your scrpt may detect the scan. It is by no means a "connection" to your machine. If you are interested more about this topic, do an internet search on the PC Anywhere program, it does same.
I guess I didn't spell it out clearly enough in my earlier post on this subject, so here it is:
The connection to Paradise Poker was the advertising banner connecting to the Paradise Poker server (cardroom3.paradisepoker.com [corrected address from earlier post]) in order to update the number of players currently online. Nothing sinister, nothing unusual. When you are cruising the web your computer is constantly contacting other sites to gather ads. Think people, think.
If desire did not have this site or some other gambling site up when the incident occurred I will cheerfully refund all of your money.
We both agree with the exact sentiment of your post. If you read desires original message she says she was on mIRC, not the web. Our replies are a little more appropriate to her situation. Good info though.
Umm...do you need my address to send my refund, darlin'?
Trust your first impressions. It seems that thinking only confuses you.
I was at a game the other night and an older businessman said his friend has a software program that let's you see everyone's hole cards. He said the software cost 10,000. This man is very well respected and it doesn't make much since for him to lie about this. Does anyone else know if this is accurate?
He may not be lying to you at all, but his friend may be to him. Rarely should you blindly believe what is said by a friend of a friend of another friend that knows a guy. $10,000 seems like a nice round figure doesn't it?
Lets just entertain the idea for a second, that this software program exists and works. To do this it would actually have to recieve the output directly from Paradise's server as it is being transferred to the players. In other words the program would have to be based on Paradise's code and method of transferring data. If Paradise changed even slightly the way they do this, or even when they upgrade (which I'm sure they do through just routine server maintenance and security) your program would most likely cease to work correctly. There goes your $10,000 investment. Unless, of course, the guy you bought it from is constanly offering you free upgrades to that software.
I would not have believed this gentleman at all if he heard it from a friend. He actually says he saw the friend playing on the computer and the opponents hole cards. I don't know if it was Paradise or not, only internet poker.
Russ
This is then meaningless speculation without any facts. He could have been watching the Yahoo! internet poker with play money for all we know.
This reminds me of a situation on MSN. A gentleman in a chat channel said he had "spy software" that displayed people's whispered chats (private remarks). When challenged to prove it, he did..pasting people's supposed private messages to one another. We were all amazed.
I've been around computers and software long eneough (since 1968) to know ANYTHING is possible.
The guy capable of writing this is probably 16 years old and just doing it to see if he could. The motivation of MOST hackers.
My son is a comp/si major at Purdue and it is just amazing what these kids can do when you put many of them all together in a dorm or frat house with almost unlimited free software - actually I'd be suprised if this this software doesn't exist already.
The thread below, "Systematic Approach...", inspired this new post. None of the bright minds could think of any reason that Paradise Poker might be dealing anything other than random cards on purpose. Here are solid reasons.
If your goal was to attract and keep online poker customers what would be the most important segment of the market to draw in and keep? Solid winning professionals? Hardly. You would like to keep the pigeons in action for as long as possible. More is better. More games, more rake. More bankrolls on deposit in a safe and secure Costa Rican bank earning interest or handy in case things don't work out as planned, able to furnish you with some running money.
How would I keep the pigeons playing? Easy. They will be gifted with above average good fortune. It won't turn them into winners because they're pigeons after all but it will float them along for the maximum. They'll also enjoy the ride, blessed with much more action and big hands than they've ever had in a live game. While I'm at it let's set up all new players with the same good fortune, at least until the prove they can beat the game. Would'nt want them wandering off to the competetion. In a nut shell, this is why PP is so successful.
What does this cost? PP pays nothing unless they're found out, a damn near impossibility as things sit now. There's also that previously mentioned running money if the heat gets turned up. It's obvious that the cost is born by the winning players. Ugly draw outs and KK under AA will be the rule if you're a regular winner. Expect unimproved AK to be your most likely result. You'll win but forget BBs/HR and expect some ugly swings.
So who am I, you may well ask? I'd rather not say in specific but I'm a pro with 4 years of solid winning middle limit holdem under my belt. I'm also a winner at PP over ~1000 hours. I'll play there again with a fresh account some day just to scoop a little cream and then bail. I recommend you do the same.
Sounds like a good movie plot.
yeah, call oliver stone.
I called Oliver and he's looking into it!
Have fun with that Ace-King in the blind! You know what I mean :-)
Thank you for being articulate enough to state what I knew could be the reasons for an online Poker site to favor the underhands, but couldn't put into words as precisely as you did, Skeptic.
I tend to agree with your observations, but with a few reservations:
1. While collusion seems to be a problem at some of the higher limit tables, distribution problems are more apparent at the mid and low limit tables. Why might this be? I suspect that low limit players get bored easily (observe player comments) and leave the tables when play isn't "exciting". I think that the algorithm for the low and mid level tables is designed, not to cheat players, but to maximize excitement. Unfortunatley, this will penalize better players while rewarding loose, wild players - who will, of course, attribute flopping a boat to 3-8 unsuited as a measure of their skill.
2. I have observed a few players who seem to have foreknowledge of the cards about to fall, i.e. they will consistentley raise and reraise (before the flop) with marginal or unplayable hands, and will continue to reaise and reraise until a miracle card falls at the river. Once in a while, I can see this happenning, but ten times in a two hour session stimulates my "world-class skepticism".
3. I do not beleive the Paradise wants skilled players at the low limit tables. It seems to me that players who are selective in their pre-flop play begin to see fewer and fewer playable hands. On one occassion, I went for two hundred consecutive hands without seeing one that was even marginally playable. Check the probabilities - and I'm not the only one who has experienced this.
I do not live in a state where casino gambling is legal, but I will never play at the Paradise again. Planet Poker may be smaller, but so far, they seem to be honest.
I think you all must be drunk or something.How do they determine who gets the winning hands when it is a table full of new players.How about a table full of loose losing players.Do the winning hands go to the biggest fish among the fish?How can they design such a program to determine which fish wins since most fish are so unpredictable that maybe they may fold with a hand that the so-called program thought that they were going to call with and win.Who gets the pot then.How can a program predict what each player will do call,raise or fold -wont that affect the outcome of each hand?I think you people should evaluate your own play and maybe some day come to the conclusion that maybe your play isnt to strong.Have you ever played a few hands of blackjack and in 10 - 15 min. get up alot of money.Do you think the casinos let you win the first few hands to suck you in?I dont think so.What happens is if you are lucky you may win ,but because the house has a very big edge on you ,you will be mathematically guarranteed to lose all your money in the long run if you keep playing.Unfortunately poker is the same thing.You may get lucky when you first start playing but because the good players make more of the right decisions,call at the right times ,fold at the right times and raise at the right times,and not to mention play the right cards at the right times.This is what gives those good players "the edge "over the fish and in the long run the fish are destined to lose just like blackjack or any other house game.
Answer: dealing algorithm using multiple variables to manufacture hands on the fly or simply to change the odds in favor of the live ones. Complex perhaps, but doable nonetheless.
And this is what u believe Paradise Poker has done?
The mentality of some posters only reinforces the fact that some of the livest players(and id say the kookiest) play online.By the way they already made the movie The Conspiracy Theory.
If this post was meant at all to be serious, here are the flaws in the logic I detect:
1)you claim that Paradise's main market are the "pigeons". I would tend to believe that their major market would be any player that does not have regular access to a live cardroom, or those that are fed up with cardrooms i.e smoke, rake, rude players.
2) If PP did not want solid winning players, why would they advertise through a web site (this one) that caters to solid play. You might find poor nd losing pleyrs here but pigeons? The majority of people here at least have a clue. I am also sure it is not very cheap to advertise here considering the activity and traffic it commands. Wh waste this money when it could be sitting in the Costa Rican backs tucked away safely, waitiing for the great escape?
3) Why would crooks put so much effort into customer service if they were not planning a long term operation? PP has undeniably excellent cusomer service.
He already spelled it out regarding both the dealing scheme and advertising: More pigeons, more games, more rake. Further on logic: more solids, fewer games, smaller rake. Crooks wouldn't want to maximize profit via customer service?
The pigeons have too lose in the long run because none of them will be able to beat the rake. This fact will be hard for them to deny because even with "all the good hands" they see, It takes a real overt act to punch up that credit card online, and even more to request a payout. They will remeber thsese times, and if they forget they will hit the history button and it will be in black and white before their eyes. They will know they have not won and are stuck big with a monlthy minimum payment. A game with only pigeons is a game on the verge of extinction. How does Paradise figure that this group of players will be the future of thier existence?
If there are solid players in the game, the pigeons won't play? Where will the pigeons flock too? Back to the "live" casino games "they used to win"? I doubt it, the action in the online game is plenty, they get tons of hands an hour, and once they get a taste of playing those two tables at once, they don't have to tip the dealer, the pigeons will be back in droves, to the games kept alive by the solid players. I'm pretty sure Paradise welcomes good players with open arms because a rake is a rake no matter who plays.
As a Paradise defender (operative?) it's easy to see you don't want any enlightenment on the subject. I can smell the smoke coming off your keyboard as you cobble up these posts. It's also clear you've spent almost no time thinking through the chain of bankrolls that fund a cardroom otherwise you'd see that the situation I've detailed makes perfect internal sense. Here's my final shot.
Pigeons pay the freight for almost everyone. They pay the rake and they toke the dealers the most and they pay the winning players. Without them no cardroom would survive. No, not quite. There would be no cardrooms without them. Winning players will flock like vultures to the card room that is best supplied with pigeons. Pigeons do not all live forever and need replacement. This cost the cardroom money. The less vultures, the less it costs. The better the pigeons defend themselves the less it costs. Got it?
Skeptic, even just responding to your posts makes me feel foolish. Your opinions are soo far fetched. They have been quite entertaining though and I got some good laughs as you have good prose.
You are absolutely correct in your description of how "pigeons" are more profitable to a cardroom. I don't deny this in the least.
However your critcal mistake is that you are presuming that there is a greater clientel at Paradise of pigeons vs. solid players. Paradise's cardroom encompasses the entire world. It reaches players (like myself) that have no access to games otherwise. These players (good or bad) will play and fund the rake win or lose. Like pigeons players with no other options will play and pay the cardroom. Which population therefore is bigger and more valuble to the game?
Since you are enligthened on this topic and your analysis is in no doubt backed by solid numbers and research, maybe you could share these numbers with us?Being a "world class skeptic" yourself, i'm sure it is easy for you to understand why it is unlikely for this forum to take you on merit alone. You won't even identify yourself. So put up the numbers, or any tangible evidence.
You and I (and most of this forum) both know that u have nothing.
In the least, u must let me know when u go back to paradise. I'd love watch how u "scoop a little cream" then bail.
World Class Paraniod,
The game of Hold Em as it sits is already 'set up' to keep pigeons coming back. There is no reason to stack the deck.
We've all seen those horrible players play every hand to the river and sit there with huge stacks of chips in front of them, grinning like idiots and congratulating themselves on being great players. That single streak alone is enough to keep them coming back again and again and again - no matter how much they lose in the long run.
Just this weekend, I got slammed time and time again by pigeons hitting 4 and 6 outers when the pot was laying them horrible odds. Even though they were losing, they sure enjoyed sucking out on me - and they will go for that suckout every time, no matter the odds.
Pigeons DO live forever (figuratively). For every pigeon that goes broke there are dozens scrambling to take his place.
If they didn't, Las Vegas would cease to exist. How else can you explain the continued popularity of losing propositions like slots, roulette, craps, pull tabs, super nine, pai gow, blackjack, the lottery, etc?
If your point is that Paradise 'needs' to fund the pigeons lest they never return, you really have no point.
If you suppositions about pigeons and why they come back for more were true, Las Vegas would not exist.
The majority of gamblers are stupid. They will happily play when the odds are against them. There is no need to give them an advantage.
.......
WSC - You have probably have nailed it exactly right.
Two things about my ongoing soap opera at Fool’s Paradise: 1) The way the card distributions and action play out is out of this world, and 2) I continue to win, however bizarre the nature of the deal and swings.
Exposing them or Fool’s vindication?
The board analysis that has been done has presumably been done well. But I doubt that it’s all that telling. It’s by virtue simplistic, and I don’t think it works to expose the fuzzy math apparently driving the Paradise dealing scheme. My prediction however is that useful analysis will be forthcoming and hopefully soon. You know, the much ballyhooed analysis that is “simple to do” and “for its simplicity precludes Paradise from cheating” (which meanwhile hasn’t of course been seen for however many years Paradise has been in business)... yep, I’m optimistic this analysis is finally coming near term.
Just an observation on randomness:
Randomness means that each possible outcome is equally probable. This is a theoretical concept which may or may not exist in the real world, but which is useful in modeling many real world situations. Computer algorithms, however, are necessarily deterministic and CANNOT be random. Instead, a programmer must decide what real randomness would look like, and create a deterministic simulation of randomness. Even an honest algorithm will be flawed, in that it is constructed in accordance with the programmer's subjected perception of randomness. If the programmer consciously wishes to skew randomness, the algorithm will be even more flawed.
The question to be addressed here is not, I believe, whether or not the outcome of the PP dealing algorithm is random - by the definition of algorith, it is not, but rather, what is the perceived nature of randomness that the programmer is attempting to simulate and whether or not that simulation is deliberately being skewed?
Randomness does NOT (necessarily) mean that each possible outcome is equally probable. Moreover, the "probability" of events is in many, if not all, cases totally dependent of our knowledge of the situation and circumstances at hand.
An algorithm may not be inherently random, but may be controlled by external random events, which then randomizes its behaviour. I'm quite certain (just a guess though) that all internet poker programs use external random events to control their random number generation. PokerSpot uses some radiation detection device, i believe, and somewhere I've read (don't remember where) that they use things like internet load/routing data and stuff like that, which are essentially unpredictable.
If you're not using external random events, I have personal experience that you can indeed find and exploit patterns in random number generation. I found a betting pattern that seemed to give me an edge in a "coin tossing" program I wrote (just experimenting...). I would guess though that even if no external events are used, better random number generators than that readily available in C is used in these kinds of applications so heavily dependent on good random number generation.
These are no simple issues, though. Let's hope that real RNG experts were involved when the software was written. And keep in mind that the shuffling done in real life casinos probably isn't perfectly random, so that the computer "randomness" may be better than the casino "randomness" (at least seven riffle shuffles is needed to totally randomize a deck of cards I read somewhere that an expert investigating the matter had concluded).
I have never played at a casino, though, so I don't know their shuffling routines, or if they use shuffling machines, or what. But if the casino shuffling that people are used to isn't quite random, that may explain to some degree the "unnatural feeling" of the cards online that some people seem to have. I'm also a bridge player, and I know that when we get new decks of cards at the club, the hands are really strange for a long time, due to bad shuffling (i suppose).
Maybe online shuffling is just better than people are used to. I know that in the world of blackjack, you can get simulations of real shuffling techniques used in casinos. Maybe that is what people used to playing in real life would want at online casinos — simulations of real life shuffling instead of true deck randomizations. Maybe such simulations are used at some sites. Maybe that is why some sites feel more natural. Maybe, maybe, maybe. I dunno. Anyone?
....
is this a problem which is beeing delt with?? what happens to players who are caught colluding or having multiple accounts?? (NOTHING??) cuz they cant prosecute people can they?? cuz its in costa rica or some shit!! and that leaves the rest of us with wide open pockets.. i have even heard of people playing accounts with fake names... CAN SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER ME
Check out the web sites at Planet and Paradise. Both sites spell out their policies on collusion. Planet uses real poker experts to monitor their games. Paradise doesn't use real poker experts.
I think you are right in that these offshore poker sites have no way to enforce anything except by terminating an account. And of course the offender can spring right back with a new name.
You may as well assume there are players conversing and sharing hands during games. It's too easy to do and too hard to prevent. I'm very doubtful of the ability of the poker site security folks to detect this in player performance or other patterns.
i played live casino poker 5 days in a row, returned for thanksgiving and started getting D.T.'s, so finally signed up for paradise poker...after initial getting used to action now i find it a little slow, but i also find it easier to understand my position at the table and feel i play better trechnically, since i have a "overview" of the game, i wonder if anyone else has felt it allowed them to grasp position better and helped their skill development...still miss the real action....good luck all....
It seems to me that most of the posts on this part of the BB are focused on how one is being ripped off or screwed over by an on line sight. I want to post a question regarding play on here but quite frankly am afraid it will just turn into collusion or some other damn thing about what's wrong with internet poker.
I'm not saying that it's perfect at all, nor are many live games, but my guess is that most people posting this stuff just took a good beatin and want to externalize the blame to someone or thing than realize that "it's poker" and Sh.. happens. or you played bad.
I want to hear if someone has uncovered something that's substantiated and is cause for concern, but most and I repeat most of this stuff seems to be a bunch of crap.
Take it easy on me, but I am tired of coming on here to read some good stuff about playing strategy only to find the next "victim" spewing some unsubstantiated BS.
'
If your question concerns the strategy of play in a particular hand then by all means post it on the appropriate forum as pertaining to the limits of the game. If you want to mention in your post that the hand was played online that's okay. No one will refuse to give their opinions because the game wasn't live. (After all, badger doesn't post here anymore.)
If your question is about plays that are unique to online poker, using "raise, call, bet or fold" buttons, increased level of check raising, stealing fom the small blind because there's no chopping online and things of that nature, just post the problem here. You'll get a few serious answers. Just wade through the spam till you find one.
Why do the defenders of unassailable randomness in computer programs always assume the people that make observations to the contrary are whining losers? Why not take their interpretations at face value and forget trying to define an ulterior motive?
How the hell is anyone going to substantiate somthing like that anyway?
Possibly becuse "these people" never use concrete data to suport their "opinions". When asked to present data or specific example these proponents NEVER produce.
not true.You clearly are another orgainzed crime apologist. Why don't you start teling us how organized is good for people. That's what usually happens.
We wouldn't let them advertise here. Just want to make that perfectly clear. While Rounder does not accuse Paradise of "cheating", he and others postulate that the cards are not dealt randomly, possibly not intentionally, resulting in bigger hands than expected. We have no problem with these accusations being discussed on our forum. However the fact we carry their advertisement means that we have no reason to believe those accusations and in fact believe the opposite. We make no guarantees of course. In fact we have consistently warned our fans that collusion on any poker site is theoretically very possible unless they have an expert poker player (not just a computer algorithm) looking out for it. But again, we want to make it clear that we would never knowlingly accept advertisemnets from a poker site if we had good reason to believe the cards were not random. If anyone ever gives us good evidence that they are not, they will be gone.
I respect this post and think you should repost it every other week. As I was reading all the crap below, I was thinking, "how come S&M never comment on this stuff". So your comments are appreciated.
Any other information (good or bad) that S&M could provide about Paradise is also appreciated.
Thanks
David,
Do you think the analysis of the 4.5 millions boards published by Paradise showing a clear card bias is what we should have expected to find?
If yes, then how can we take advantage of this information? Should we adjust how we calculate drawing odds? Did you take this into account when deriving your poker strategies?
I thought Mark the K ran an analysis of the boards and discovered nothing unusual.
Mark the K did run an analysis. HE DID FIND A BIAS! Statistically neither Mark or TheCat seem to know if this BIAS is within an acceptable range of BIAS.
I think the analysis showed a bias towards low cards. Now is this bias because more people are staying to see more of the board when they hold better cards? Or is it because the dealing algorithm wants to reward people for playing low trash?
Or the bias could be within statistical offness. (layterm)
Mark the K's initial response was that the bias wasn't significant and until we saw the hole cards we really wouldn't know if PP was doing something funny or not.
After TheCats analysis, Mark the K seemed to consider that the Bias may be more significant.
I never read anything more. Maybe I was just confused by all the statistical mumbo jumbo. ;)
What about this...Take the 5 million hands... put every combination of hole cards in front of each board.
Make sure no cards are duplicated between the board cards and the hole cards.
Then analyze whether the distribution of Quads, sets, etc, is within the standard deviation acceptable.
Is this crazy?
Paradise only supplied the boards. No individual hands were included in the data.
No, what I meant was re-create every possible hole card then evaluate.
If not why not?
I think this answer would be the info he has been asking for all along.
I have seen no figures. There should be a tiny bias toward low cards on board since hands are more likely to go further when there are.
Analysis of flops.txt from Paradise Posted By: TheCat The following is the results of my analysis of the flops.txt file from Paradise.
The flop cards are biased and non-random. The flops are more likely to contain low cards than high cards.
I see two basic explanations for this bias. 1) The card dealing algorithm is flawed. Players could be receiving more high cards than is normal resulting in more action than is normal. The board contains more low cards than normal resulting in more bad beats than normal. The end result is a game that feels unnatural and players that are paranoid.
2) The card bias is normal. The bias could be the result of high card rich flops never being flopped, because everyone folded. The raw data consisted of 4,595,665 hands with 733,709 hands being folded without a flop. The card bias could be caused by the exclusion of 15.96% of the hands from the sample. The card bias is greatest on 5th street as would be expected.
I expected to see some card bias on 4th and 5th streets, but I never expected to find anything this significant.
This leaves me with 3 questions. 1) Is this card bias normal? 2) Will Planet match Paradise and disclose the same information? 3) Can I gain any advantage online or in ring games by applying this information?
The following is the card counts discussed above. I counted the occurrence of each card and sorted the results. The flop is represented by card1, card2, and card3. The turn and river by card4 and card5.
Card1 Card2 Card3 Card4 Card5 Ad 73446 As 73257 Ad 73410 Ad 61573 Ah 52578 As 73593 Ac 73543 Kd 73439 As 61929 Ad 52596 Ah 73607 Ah 73593 Td 73543 Ah 62016 Ac 52647 Kd 73636 Tc 73696 As 73575 Jh 62124 Kd 52772 9d 73638 Ad 73698 Jd 73730 Ks 62137 Ks 52773 8h 73658 Ks 73719 Kh 73751 Th 62237 As 52846 Jc 73706 Kd 73733 Ac 73775 Kh 62266 Js 52893 Jh 73726 Qs 73749 8h 73782 Kd 62271 Jh 52938 Ac 73876 Jh 73802 Qs 73784 Jc 62312 Ts 52976 Td 73901 Qc 73912 Ah 73800 Qd 62334 Qs 53011 Jd 74011 Kc 73957 Qd 73820 Ts 62360 Td 53065 Ts 74015 Ts 73978 Jh 73828 Jd 62484 Qh 53114 8d 74052 5c 74004 6d 73834 Ac 62485 Kc 53115 7s 74055 9c 74019 Qc 73917 7s 62501 Th 53133 8s 74065 8c 74040 Ks 73937 Qs 62516 Jd 53210 7c 74079 9d 74046 Js 74012 Js 62521 Jc 53260 6c 74135 Kh 74084 9h 74058 8h 62546 Qd 53264 6s 74161 Qd 74124 7s 74091 8s 62645 5s 53265 3s 74168 4d 74149 8d 74114 8c 62651 8c 53299 Qs 74180 Jc 74166 Jc 74114 9h 62707 7c 53303 7d 74184 Qh 74184 9c 74141 Kc 62728 8d 53356 9h 74204 7d 74193 5s 74167 5h 62731 Qc 53376 Js 74211 Js 74207 Tc 74197 7d 62731 9c 53386 Qh 74230 8d 74262 Kc 74230 Tc 62769 Kh 53390 5c 74254 7c 74280 Qh 74239 9c 62823 7s 53423 Ks 74276 5h 74288 7d 74275 5d 62824 Tc 53453 Tc 74304 6h 74294 6s 74325 Qh 62859 5h 53470 9c 74324 8s 74294 8s 74339 3s 62926 8h 53513 5d 74342 5d 74313 8c 74347 Td 63000 5d 53547 4d 74348 Jd 74313 Ts 74365 9d 63027 9s 53555 3c 74360 9h 74314 9d 74368 6c 63065 6d 53561 7h 74364 8h 74325 9s 74378 5c 63106 4s 53594 8c 74396 5s 74407 4s 74461 9s 63116 3d 53606 Th 74421 7s 74448 7h 74462 Qc 63163 5c 53632 5h 74431 6s 74453 4h 74502 6d 63173 9d 53655 9s 74498 Th 74473 7c 74502 6s 63176 6c 53678 Kc 74506 3s 74479 3c 74505 7h 63185 8s 53678 6h 74508 Td 74493 4d 74513 6h 63198 7d 53694 Qd 74513 7h 74550 5c 74549 5s 63214 7h 53699 4s 74514 6d 74552 5d 74564 8d 63224 9h 53743 2d 74542 3c 74592 4c 74576 7c 63233 6h 53790 6d 74564 9s 74673 Th 74584 4d 63312 6s 53823 Qc 74566 4c 74679 5h 74653 4h 63332 3c 53864 Kh 74586 4s 74696 3d 74706 2h 63384 2h 53888 4c 74608 3h 74723 3s 74719 3h 63449 4h 53933 3h 74677 2d 74782 6h 74744 3c 63463 4d 53963 5s 74694 6c 74792 6c 74859 3d 63496 3h 53991 4h 74712 3d 74834 3h 74907 4c 63519 3s 54016 2s 74775 2h 74848 2s 74976 2c 63526 4c 54087 2c 75059 4h 74950 2h 75025 2d 63554 2s 54128 3d 75077 2s 74960 2c 75201 4s 63616 2c 54325 2h 75203 2c 75039 2d 75266 2s 63820 2d 54494
Could someone please summarize this is a more readable fashion. And lets ignore suits at first.
The following is the combined card counts for the first 3 cards on board grouped by rank and ignoring suits. I will e-mail the detailed results in excel spreadsheet format to anyone who is interested.
The card bias is minor, but clearly evident. Is it statistically significant? I'm not qualified to say. That's why I posted the information here for discussion.
Graphing the results shows a fairly smooth line except for the deuce and the ace. The ace is not surprising, but the deuce is surprising.
2 899676 3 895747 4 894708 6 893221 5 892666 7 891483 9 890661 T 889970 8 889674 Q 889218 K 887854 J 887826 A 883173
Its been a while since I last did statistics, but what you are asking is a simple standard deviation question.
You add up all the frequencis of the cards and get the avg (891221) amount any card is seen. Then you look for the high and low values 883173 (for the Ace) and 899676 (for the Two) [I wonder if there is any significance between the high and low being Ace and two, or if it is just coincedence] . You then look for the difference between the extremes and and divide by the avg and express a percent. In this case the low occurs 8048 times less frequent then the avg which is .90%. The high occurs 8455 times more frequent than the avg which is .95%.
Interpretation? In statistics I believe anything that occurs within 2.5% of the avg is within 1 std deviation. The results are both less than 1%. This means that the Paradise flops you have posted show absoulutely no bias. The frequencies are well within statistical expected values.
Yes, u r absolutely right, those results fully enter in the standard deviation. Nevertheless we can even study ANOVA and chi-quadro. Marco
Forgive my ignorance, I have no clue as to what this means: "Nevertheless we can even study ANOVA and chi-quadro" Please elaborate Marco.
I was doing some thinking on possible explanations of the Ace having the lowest frequency and two having the highest. I was fairly certain that this was coincedental, or as DS noted that small cards may be a tiny bit more likely . Looking back at the numbers posted I did notice something strange I did not see at first. The number frequencies decline in numerical order from 2-A. I'd be amazed if this was simply coincedence.
I think the explanation is the the nature of "random number generating code" It is impossible to attain true randomness witha computer. Those with the technical background know exactly what I mean. For those who don't I have pasted info from the site www.vbexplorer.com It is a developers site fro visual basic programming. Since I am borrowing their info, I should give them credit, Here goes:
"Sometimes it's useful to have the program pick a value "at random". That is to say, have the program generate a value that can't be predicted. In the case of card games, the program might choose any of the 52 playing cards in a standard deck. Or, perhaps, randomly select one of the six sides of a standard die. In the case of video games, a computer-controlled character might have to select a direction in which to move. All of these situations can easily be handled through the use of random numbers. "Most computers (perhaps all computers) don't generate truly random values. To be truly random, the value must not be predictable. However, computers use complex mathematical formulas to generate values which look random, but really aren't. Even though the formulas are complex, they're still predictable.
Conceptually, random numbers generated by a computer can be thought of as a very, very long list of values. The computer always returns the values in the same order, but it doesn't always start at the same place in the list. If the list contained a million values, sometimes the computer would return values starting at the first value, but sometimes it might start at the 105,768th value. Because the starting point is unknown and the list is so long, a repeatable pattern is not discernable."
I hope this has made everyone a little smarter.
The decline in numerical order becomes even more interesting when you view the occurrence of all 52 cards individually.
I heard a rumor that the seeds that are used to genearate the random numbers are derived from a list of other random events.
Such as:
1. Number of people at the table 2. Names of the players 3. Mouse position of the clients 4. Number of people online 5. Number of stars in the universe
etc.
So that there would be no repeating of the seed order an definitely no repeating of the random number.
I also heard that you can put the evil voodo curse on someone buy running the mouse around their seat and clicking on their name ;)
The results for Ace and Deuce are way over 2SDs. You seem to forget that 11.5 million trials have been conducted in this experiment.
Like I said, it's been a while. Show me how it is really done!
The formula for calculating the SD in this situation (binomial) is the square root of the probability of that a particular card will come up (1/13) multiplied by the probability it won't (12/13) multiplied by the number of trials. (This formula may be slightly off for these circumstances, I think, because when a card has come up on a flop it cannot come up again.)
I think you are wrong.
Have to agree w/ Gator on this one. This is not a binomial distribution because you have 13 different cards that may fall. In order for this to be a binomial distribution, you have to be able to answer "yes" or "no" to the prob question. The prob of any card falling on the flop is not a yes or no question. You have to caluculate the mean and variance using The following sample. 2-899676;3-895747;4-894708;5-892666;6-893221; 7-891483;8-889674;9-890661;T-889970;J-887826; Q-889218;K-887854;A-883173
Before one calculates the Mean and variance, why were these values not listed in order in previous post?
Well, I was bored here at work so I calculated the mean and st dev of the above sample. Assuming those values are accurate here goes...
Avg-891221 St Dev-4145
That gives a 95% confidence interval as (883096,899345) It would appear as though 12 of the 13 values fall within this interval. (exception being the 2 at 899676)
The trial of whether an Ace is dealt or whether it is not has a binomial probability distribution.
I did try to explain that the figures provided do not exactly provide that information, where do you get your SD from?- it seems a little low.
:
This is getting a little high and a little tedious...
Assuming the distribution numbers are correct (see above postings of distribution of the cards that fell on flop), The question posed in this forum is whether the flop distribution is normal (random) or biased towards low cards. I'm not going to argue about that more flops w/low cards are seen cause players generally hold high cards. All I did was enter the 13 values, calculated the average (easy on any stats calculator), and calculated the std dev (again you can do this on any stats calculator). That came up w/ the following,,
Avg-891221,, STD 4145 To do a confidence interval(95%) you plug numbers into following formula.
CI=AVG +/- 1.96*STD
That came to (883096,899345) which means that 95% of the values should fall into this range. Does this mean that all of them should? Of course not. If a lot of the values fell outside of this range then one could speculate about bias.
To answer your question Dave, somewhere up the thread, the original question was is the distribution of the cards random. Also, I answered an earlier question about whats the prob of seeing either an ace or a 2 on the flop of 3 cards. No one ever asked "What's the prob and std dev of seeing an ace on the flop?" If there are any more Questions about calculating something, Please start a new thread, the air is getting thin up here....
Am I mistaken or are the numbers generated from data provided by Paradise Poker specifically for the purpose of giving skeptics some data to massage? If so then who in their right mind would expect them to provide data that was other than beyond reproach, perfectly distributed?
Given that no flop hands are not counted, and given the propensity to play higher cards (especially aces and especiallY not deuces), it makes perfect sense that the frequency of ranks on the flop should descend slightly in exact order from deuce to ace. If we knew the cards that would have been flopped when there is no flop, I would expect things would reverse almost perfectly.
I have two problems with your response David.
(1)"Given that no flop hands are not counted, and given the propensity to play higher cards (especially aces and especiallY not deuces), it makes perfect sense that the frequency of ranks on the flop should descend slightly in exact order from deuce to ace"
I agree with the idea that the smaller cards freq. will be a little heavy and the higher cards to be a little lighter given the nature of the game. However, I see no way you can make the correlation that the middle cards are more likely to be played in successive order, with such regularity that it would be in perfect numerical order. Please expand on this.
(2)"If we knew the cards that would have been flopped when there is no flop, I would expect things would reverse almost perfectly. "
This is flat out wrong. If we counted every flop, (including the cards that would have shown in no-flop hands) the frequency of each card would be expected to be THE SAME. The types of cards played would have no bearing at all, it would be the same as peeling 20 cards off the top of the deck and dealing three from there. It would be random, no ascending pattern period. Unless you know something about the dealing algortihm I don't, how u can make such a statement? To give you credit, there can be some ambiguity in your statement and you may have been reffering to ONLY games that had no flop, not inclusive. In which case It would be the same logic as in (1), but I don't see why the middle numbers should follow a pattern.
David,
Exactly what I said to this original post, but you said it more succinctly.
The cards show no bias. And my tests of the flushes, quads, etc of the boards show zero bias.
I always believed this would likely be the case. On the other hand, I always believed that collusion would not be a problem, especially after your post a while ago, showing how difficult collusion might be in *some* cases. But collusion in simpler cases is worth a lot, and might be rampant. And hackers got Microsoft last month and the Republican Natl Committee this month, so my earlier comments to you about hacking stand...
Mark
.
Probably over 500 hands mostly hold'em one O8 and 2 mixed O & HE. I have not seen quads in all these HE hands and only once in Omaha.
A couple of days ago my daughter played a PP tournament (which is all I play-except for one brief "live" game I played cuz Angelina was playing in this session I won $67 in a shore time) and my daughter got quad Kings once and a few hands before there were quad A's - BTW she won the tournament.
I am not paranoic I am not accusing PP of cheating or anyone else BUT the amount of quads in not natural compared to my experience in real casinos and other on line play.
I think the best rational I have heard on this is the post someone made explaining how dealers in live casinos split up pairs and sets prior to the shuffel there by making it difficult for them to flop together.
I don't know what it is all I know is I see a bunch more quads on PP tournaments than anywhere I have played on line or real life.
Rounder, do you think that your family could have some secret power that causes Quads to appear at a high frequency when one of you is playing? :)
The public just doesn't believe you, Mr.Sklansky. Its obvious that your company's support exceeds simply advetizing revenue. anytime a legitimate complaint comes forth, Mason, you, Conjelco reps etc. come forth to try to put the best spin forward. If you had no true economic interest, then you wouldn't care.
So you think I have enough economic interest to risk endorsing an entity that I believe cheats? I get involved in these threads occasionally when I detect flawed arguments (once by Paradise itself). And contrary to your assertion, most of the public does indeed believe me.
You created this thread!!!
More hits = more $$$ :)
a new complainer comes along every month. Usually someone that has posted here for some time. Nolan Dalla I guess is a fish. Ed is fish. Rounder is a fish. You couild at least request that these sites reveal their ownership. You won't ever. If you think I'm questioning your integrity, then you are correct.
Okay, this is sort of off topic, please dont construe it as spam. I am not affiliated with any of the compaines or websites I mention below. I am not advertising for them either. I just use them to get daily rewards. This is pretty neat because it does allow you to get a buy in on PP or any other poker site without risking a dime of your own money or putting your personal credit card number at risk. It will take you about 3-5 weeks of daily collection to accumulate enough to actually get a $50.00 buy in. But hey! its free! You can also spend the money you get on poker books from this site..so hopefully the site owner will let this post stay :)
so..heres how to get a free bankroll on Paradise Poker.
There is an online incentive program called Beenz. The Beenz web site can be found here:
http://www.beenz.com
They offer you incentives to visit web sites and sign up for different Internet newsletters...etc. Most of the things you sign up for are totally free. You get a small amount of money (Beenz) each time you visit a web site or sign up for a program. There are also web sites that will pay you in beenz for visiting each day. Right now, there are about 100 Beenz that you can collect each day. Each ‘been’ that you collect is worth ½ cent.
The really cool thing is that after you collect 1100 Beenz, you can open a ‘rewardz’ card account and transfer the Beenz you collected into it. Then you can spend them with the card, the card functions just like a regular MasterCard debit card. You can use it to buy anything that you would normally buy with a credit card. Beenz.com doesn’t require any personal information other than your name and DOB for you to get the card. They actually send you a physical card that you can use in the store..not just online.
It will take you a bit of time each day to collect the available beenz on the Internet. Below are a couple of web sites that will speed up your collection of Beenz.
First go visit www.beenz.com and sign up.
Then visit this web site daily:
http://www.geocities.com/sherylt_1972/beenz.html
The lady who runs the site above updates it each and every day with all of the available daily Beenz so you don’t have to hunt for them.
Visit this next web site to get a list of all of the free one-time sign up offers.
http://www.beenzboard.com/
You should be able to get 3000-4000 Beenz if you sign up for everything. I would suggest you get a 2nd free email account such as hotmail to use in signing up for this stuff.. Most of these companies will send you tons of junk e-mail that you might not want in your regular e-mail account.
Click on Complete beenz list for the list of one-time offers. You will also find offers on the main beenz web-site and in your e-mail from time to time.
That’s all there is to it! You will be surprised how fast the beenz accumulate in your account. Once you get to 10K beenz, just transfer them over to your rewardz card and you will have your buy in for Paradise! Since I have been collecting beenz for about a year and a half, I have collected 60K+..thats $300.00 free.
One last thing! Please visit the web site below and sign up this other rewards program too! It will allow you to get free airline tickets or gift certificates by visiting websites daily works the same as beenz.
http://freetickets.terrashare.com
Actually, you can collect miles at the above site and beenz at the beenz site for about one year and have enough for a free plane ticket to vegas and enough beenz on your card for a bankroll there. Pretty cool deal for only about 10-15 minutes of collection time each day!
These are both legitimate companies that have been around for quite some time. This is no scam, pyramid scheme or anything, just a really really cool deal!
Have fun! See you on PP!
What happens when you win and want to cash out? The rewardzcard DOES NOT allow money to be put on it by anyone other than beenz.com Doesn't Paradise First credit back your CC, then send a check for the remaining balance?
----------------------------------------------------- Dear loyal beenz member,
Thank you for your continued interest in our beenz rewardzcard. Unfortunately, due to the exact nature of the rewardzcard, we do not allow any money to be credited to your card without it coming from beenz.com.
Many thanks,
Customer Support Team www.beenz.com JC2113
I have not looked into this myself, but my sister informs me that one must spend $40 in order to collect the "free" beenz. This post looks like pure spam to me.
Jake to answer the first question..
The card works just like a debit card. When beenz said they don't allow anyone else to put money on it, it means exactly that. No one else can transfer ADDITIONAL money TO it. However.. when you cash out on PP, the money is the same as a merchant credit or refund. Same as if you returned an item to K-mart and they credited it back to your card. It works exactly the same as if you bought in with a regular Mastercard..if you cash out for $100.00 and your buy in was $50.00, you get a check for $50.00 and your initial buy in is credited back to your beenz rewardz Mastercard so you can spend it elsewhere. It will show up as a credit in your transaction summary on their web site. I know this for an absolute fact because I have done it. I have also had money credited back to my card from amazon.com and another gambling site.
As for you Terry, Has your sister been smoking something??....Before you go calling someone who is trying to help you out a spammer or just spreading general dis-information, you might want to actually go look at the website. You don't have to spend ANY money to collect most beenz. NOR do you have to spend any of your own money to spend them. You collect them..transfer them to your card when you have enough and use the card just like a regular MasterCard..it even has the Mastercard logo on it. You can collect 34 free beenz per day right now just on the main beenz site alone. There are lots of other free ones you can collect if you just look at the other web sites I gave you. You dont have to spend a dime if you don't want to..it is just free money plain and simple. Not much money..(at the moment you can collect 44 1/2 cents a day with the currently available daily beenz offers)..but free money none the less. You could even use it to buy your sister a replacement brain I guess.
Sigh... Grumble Grumble...
If you need a $50.00 bankroll to get you started, then this is a easy way to get one. You will net around $15-20 a month sometimes more..all you have to do is collect the damn things each day. It is actually kinda fun once you get started. If you have more than one person in your household, you can get quite a bit more cause there is no problem with multiple accounts. One for you, one for your mom, one for your kid, maybe even one for your dog..who knows...
All I can tell you is that it is a easy $200-300++++ a year that you can spend on junk, internet poker, booze, whatever floats your boat..pretty cool if you ask me. My last purchase with my beenz card was a carton of cigarettes and a six pack of Milwaukee's best at QuikTrip..woo hoo!
If you have a kid who is always bugging you to buy a damn computer game or Nintendo Cartridge or something, set him up with a beenz account and have him collect them. He should be able to average a $50.00 game every couple months. All he has to do is collect every single day..sweet deal!
For those of you who are still skeptical, go to the beenz site right now..sign up, (don't worry, they don't require much personal info). Click on the WHATS NEW TAB.. Look down towards the bottom on the left. You will see a little bean in a blue box with a scrolling banner below it. Click it. Boom, you just made a nickle for clicking your mouse. Just like finding money on the floor. Cool huh..
You don't have to spend a dime. I'm up to over $5 worth of beenz from when Joe posted the original link and haven't bought a thing. Not much, but it's a start.
Joe doesn't get anything at all from the links he posted. It's just a good opportunity for free money that he wanted to make people aware of.
I did start my initial reply with "I have not looked into this myself."
My intention was only to alert the site owners that this may be spam. My wording was too strong, and for that, I apologize.
I will immediately remove my sister from my "Trusted Sites" list. It's getting awfully short. Even my mother lied to me about Santa Claus.
As to my sister's choice of smoking material, I defend her right to chose, as I do yours.
I hereby request that my intial response to this thread be deleted. I certainly wouldn't want to stand in the way of anyone's earning 44 1/2 cents per day.
Terry
HI
anyone here played at poker.com
its great very loose game!!!!!!!!!
There are many solid top notch pros playing on paradise.Some of these players post here on this forum.How come no posts about paradise cheating in there dealing ,or letting first time players win,non dealing randomness,letting the fish last longetc ,--how come these issues have not been brought up by Angelina,adam, skp,maven etc.These are the solid winning players(there are more -but these are the first to come to mind)They never complain about these "conspiracies".If any solid player would bring up valid points about any of the conspiracies I would definately listen.But you people who are always complaining and offering all your opinions about nonrandomness,letting bad players win,as well as first timersetc-why dont you tell us your name on paradise so we can evaluate ourselves who this person is.We will then know if the person complaining is just another losing player looking for excuses.I have a tough time believing all these theories.I have personally been playing on paradise for a year now and have noticed nothing.I get the same suckouts online just like live.I would like to hear professional poker players opinions on these conspiracies.I am sorry these theories coming from weak players are no help to no one.They are just excuses.I watch and play with Angelina,gooch,bobcards,King 34 and I have noticed that their play is awesome.They get sucked out on just as much as anyone else and I havent heard one complaint.But if these players or any other solid player would offer an opinion on these conspiracies then I would definatley take note.So people like world class skeptic,and others please provide your handle on paradise so we can evaluate the source of these allegations and make sure they are just not coming from another frustrated average player.
The reason why you don't hear pros complaining is because it's fixed in their favor. The suckouts they suffer are contrived to make it look like it happens to everybody.
Plus, since Sklansky is always using his personal knowledge about known pro winners to form his opinions then he is duped into siding in favor of a legit game.
It's all a plot.
Remember the show The Invaders with Roy Thinnes? Well, he knew they were here but no one would believe him. They could have killed him but they got more mileage out of his crackpot rantings. It just so happens he had an illegitimate son named Neal Ross. Coincidence? I think not.
If you want to play it safe and have a fair shot at an honest wager do what I do. Bet on Professional Wrestling.
Many times I complained the pp system but I have a lot of friends of mine (very good players) who surely are not cheaters, colluders or other. One of this is Angelina, european player but set up at vegas levels. Never heard a complain comin from this player about the hands he played and he is a consistent (super) winner. Bias, flaws, collusion??? Probably only tales. I begin to think we complain here only because we are (in the majority of the times) losers.... Sincerely, Marco
Somebody at the table has to lose money right? It's usually more than just one person doing the losing right?
Now you know who the "conspiracy" posters are.
I find it amusing that the same person, Gator, attacks every post that does not show Paradise Poker in a flattering light. His response time is amusing as well. Makes one wonder even more.
There is no one single entity named Gator, that is the "code name" for a covert operation of Paradise Poker special agents hired by the Costa Rican mafia to debunk the efforts of would be antagonists. We have operatives on all sides of the globes instantly available to quell any rumor or discussion that does not fit our grand scheme. With the cooperation of 2+2 we use this forum to exchange sensive data between agents. The Paradise Poker Cardroom is in reality a front to develop "the technology" that can track any individual anywhere. We will use this technology to take the world hostage unless paid a sum equal to one hundred billlion dollars. Why are we revealing this? Because we have now located the exact coordinates or our greatest nemesis, desire. Phase II is now in effect. 10-4 o niner
Based on this, one might wonder if Mr. Gator might be an employee of PP and his job description might be "defending PP against suspicious observations against PP"
Hmmmm
I was one minute late in my findings.... Mr. Gator confirmed same. Damn he is quick
Scog... See????????? LOL
Here is a tip. If you scroll down to the bottom of your page you will see a little noticed thread started by Gator. The date was 11/22, the title--- I have questions. I believe it was his first. Those of us that have picked up on Gator being a "Paradise operative" will instantlly recognize this as a set up created to introduce him as a neutral player. Don't believe it! Very transparent and sneaky, but what else do you expect from Paradise?
I bet PP has a direct line to Gator..and everytime someone posts any opinion that they deem not favorable, a minion from there picks up THE red phone and places a call to him. "Defend at all costs...take NO prisoners. Respond ASAP!" Poor Gator...run ragged..hope it pays well. :))
Desire, I have borne witness to the greater plan of Operation Gator. I was once a double agent. I'm afraid u have offenended a most lethal adversary. I have also witnessed some of their "more extreme" tactics in covering up, if you know what I mean. If they say they have located you, it may be too late. I suggest you cease all telecommunications and go underground.
yah yah yah, Gator
reduced to posting anonymously, are you?
Since you're so convinced I am paranoid and imagining conspiracies around every corner, let me state this:
I believe you to be their "gassy troll".
How close are you to Dallas anyway?
*giggle*
INTO YOUR HEART IT WILL CREEP....IT STARTS WHEN YOU'RE ALWAYS AFRAID....STEP OUT OF LINE, THE MAN COMES AND TAKES YOU AWAY...
with apologies to Buffalo Springfield
Hi there
if gator is the person i think he is hes hardly a paradise agent.. He is the lead freeroll point man at highlands poker..!!! bu the way gator nic post. a little austin powers inspired but nice
Can anyone name poker sites with online tourneys other than Paradise? Any with multi-table tourneys?
Thanks
Dear Nick,
Highlandsclub.com was holding free roll tourneys. I don't know if they still are though.
PokerSpot.com has multi-table tournaments. They also have a $2 rake on low limit games.
The following text is from a message posted earlier, but I wanted to make this a new thread because I think it's important.
---
4 people call to the button, who raises, one of the blinds calls, 6 take the flop of QJ4, all offsuit. Limper bets, button raises, 4 total see the turn, of 3 offsuit. (QJ43o now). All check to button who bets. Same 4 see the river of 2. Now QJ432. Early player bets out, button makes an online comment about suckouts and calls, bettor shows 65o for the nuts, button sighs and shows QQ. Pot had 22-23 bb's.
Is early player crazy? What do the other 2 have? AK? Why didn't they raise pre-flop? Probably KT or T9? Or Jx? Does button have decent odds here against 6 taking the flop and 4 from there on? I think so, but I don't get it. Does early player know what is coming at the flop? What am I missing?
---
Everyone's seen these kind of things at Paradise and it's exactly this type of hand that lead to the accusations of rigged hands at Paradise.
It took me a while to work out what's going on here. At lower limits, some of the wilder players will call ANY TWO CARDS on the flop. ANYTHING. And then most draws on the turn - flush or straight draw definitely and sometimes gutshots.
Realise this, and you'll understand suckouts at Paradise.
Chris
Is the key here just make sure you have a big enough bankroll to cover the ridiculous variance?
yesterday On Paradise playing 7CS I lost with a king high Flush to a Straight flush he picked up with the last 2 cards. I had made mine at 5th. This is what frustrates me about online but it happens all the time. I think I will take a break from all online poker and stick to foxwoods.
billy b
who have computers and a credit card.
I fell victim to 6-outers all day yesterday in live poker.
Many low-limit players will draw as long as they are kind of sure they aren't drawing dead - but sometimes drawing dead is fine with them too.
Chris,
I posted that hand -- I actually fibbed, it was my last night on Paradise, a short while ago, and led me to stop playing. I had the made set, lost to runner runner low str8, and I could not stand this happening over and over, so much more in my opinion than in real life.
I have played for many years, win (a fair amount) at Casinos, and playing my best I could only eke out small wins sometimes at Paradise, and I have finally gotten fed up with this type of crazy hand. You aren't right about the suckouts coming from people who play anything, I think..
...and Bill (TheCat) gave me a much more obvious and unpleasant reason for the suckouts, this hand is a very good example: Collusion. 2-3-4 people might be colluding badly on this hand (since I did have the QQ), but they sure have a lot of the bases covered it they have 65, KT, JT or J9, etc. and/or KQ or AQ and/or AA or KK. Even 2 colluders can do very well with str8 or flush draws and top pair, and they do not know I have the high set either.
This is much more bothersome:
To further understand whether it was collusion, I asked Paradise for help. I WAS REALLY CURIOUS and also really interested to see what, if anything, PARADISE would do or say. I asked just a few days ago, since TheCat's idea of collusion made so much sense.
Since it was early on my last night of play, and JUST more than 100 hands before I stopped playing. I told them exactly when it was, exactly what my hand and board were, and the name of the game. (I write down a lot, but unfortunately NOT the game #) I wanted them to check the players, etc and whether this was just a nutcase calling to the end, or a potential colluder, hacker or whatever. You would think they would be jumping for joy to be able to check this. Their answer to me was "We will not give you any hands over 100 hands old." They said further that they would not review collusion unless I provided the hand or hand number, which I had neglected to write down (I was in shock to lose this hand, also did not realize that Hand History was only 100 deep, and didn't know that they simply wouldn't do a quick lookup for a good customer; and the hands number are gone pretty quickly).
After 5-6 emails back and forth, and them getting more and more adamant that they couldn't even *get* hands older than 100 in their support dept. I gave up bothering them. I have learned my lesson.
If you take your hourly rakes rate at 3-6, 5-10 (very high) or 10-20 (not as bad), possible colluders, some very good players, and the possibility of hackers (remember Microsoft and the RNC were hacked in the last two months), I will not play this game. I can earn more than $2 per hour usually doing other things.
Yes, David is right, a few really good players can beat the 20-40, and do the rake calcs there and you will see why: Rake is relatively modest. But I suspect the hackers will get those guys eventually too.
Mark
For those that are complaining about the suckouts..
Instead of just remembering the suckouts, try taking notes on how many times you bet on the river (with a "good" hand) and people fold, or call & muck.
Of course you remember the beats, but see how many times your "best hand" holds up. I try to keep this in mind while playing, and do notice that I bet and win hands just as often as I get "rivered".
I think I'm gonna buy one of those THICK notepads.. you know, the kinds the kids get for FIVE classes.
CHiP
Is there any way to determine the ratio of winning hands containing quads in the tournaments on Paradise Poker?
I don't think the flop analysis is sheading any light on the abnormal amount of quads I see in PP tournaments.
That's all I am saying everything else "feels" quite natural - it's the quads stupid.
Once again I am NOT sugesting anything crooked here. I
"on the abnormal amount of quads I see in PP tournaments"
How many quads have you seen, in how many hands? That is a simple question, with an exact mathematical and scientifical answer. Don't dismiss this, by merely saying..."Well I don't know exactly, but I know it's more than live play!" or "There was this one time in band camp I saw quads beat quads twice in one night". These are biased events period. You remeber these events clearly because they are unusual and unexpected. No one ever remebers the other 500 hours where they never saw a hand betteer then a flush and AA won every time. To make such a statement based on observation or "feeling" is ridiculous. One thing you should consider is how fast these PP tourneys move. When I play these tourneys (I play them all the time). I am still amazed when I see the dealer say "next hand we move to Level VIII (or even higher). Each level plays ten hands exactly period. I think how can I have seen 70 hands already? I can barely remeber 4 of them, and I started at 9:00 and its only 9:35 now. And it is very common for me to jump from one tourney right to the next for the entire span of 4:00 to 9:00 some days, as I'm sure many can relate. I have seen two quads within an hour, more than once but then again my records show that I have played over 80 tourneys. That is well over 5000 hands.
The moral? I have only gotten quads once myself. That is expected to me, I don't even see the flop with most hands. Do you have any knowledge of the mathematical frequency we should see quads or do you strictly base your statement on what you "feel"? Holdem is a 7 card game. This number may come as a suprise to you, but if you were to randomly dealt out seven card hands, you would expect to see about 168 quads per 1000,000 hands. Let me rephrase that. You would see quads once every 600 hands, or about every tenth tourney, or perhaps once a day if play that fast.
Theres your expalantion, the big mystery is solved.
I don't understand all the venom when someone proffers a hypothesis to account for what he believes to be too many observed quads, or othe big hands. All I read is "PROVE IT, WHINER LOSER, PROVE IT! Why don'd you disprove it? Collect the necessary data, test the hypothesis, and let us know your results. If you can't, just be quiet. Your posts contribute nothing.
Tom D
Because this is the problem in the first place. It is impossible to disprove something, especially when it doesn't exist.
Come on, prove Santa Claus doesn't exist. Come on, "PROVE IT, WHINER LOSER, PROVE IT!" Certainly hard to prove he exists. Just as hard to prove he doesn't.
Demanding that people prove he doesn't exist and then claiming he must exist because they can't just doesn't prove a damn thing.
It will never be enough for the losers to admit they're wrong no matter how much analysis is posted so why bother asking.
Yes, LOSERS in my opinion. Anyone who loses at poker and then chooses to lash out at absolutely everything, blaming it (no matter how farfetched it is) on anything other than their own substandard play, is a loser.
NO, you're wrong. If I say I think I have too many leaves in my back yard and it's hard to rake them, you can say I'm a loser whiner. I can count them and the data can be analized to determined if I do, or do not, have too many leaves. Or, you can count them, to prove I do, or do not, have too many leaves. How do you interpret what I stated above as asking someone to disprove a negative?
Concerning Paradise, the necessary data are difficult, if not impossible, to collect. You know this, and so does Gator, but you try to make it appear that the inability to produce these data is proof that nothing is amiss.
So, I am asking you to produce the data that supports your hypothesis that quads appear as expected. Come on, PROVE IT!
Tom D
I just posted in reponse to Rounder below the frequency of Quads. For your convience I will restate here, then go read that post below for extra insight.
If you dealt out 7 cards at random, what is the probablility you would see quads? The answer is 168 in 100,000 or about 1:595.
Given the fact that a lot of PP games (especially tournament) have hads per hour rates greater than 50, you might see quads aobut once every 10-11 hours depending on how loose the game is.
I'm sure this number will comeas as a shock to you. I don't know what else you want me to say. There are more players in on the flop then live games(it is much easier to hit that call button than part with actual chips)so when they hit even a pair they fish to the river, catching that 4 of a kind every 600 times they try. It would take days of live play to get the same amount of hands you could get in one 8-10 hour session on PP. What else do you want?
Well I can't remember ONE tournament where I didn't see quads NOT ONE and many has multi quads delt.
A tournament is 10 handed and usually done by the 6th round so we are talking about a lot less than 60 hands a tournament.
Not a single Tourney without quads? I don't know what to tell you chief, but I play those almost every day ($10, $20) and I do not see quads every game. How about this, the Tourneys start in 15 minutes, (it's 3:45) lets go play a $10 event and w'ell count how many quads we see, then post it here. We will see how good a player you are too (and me for that matter). Are you up for it? It's $10 lets go.
I guess Rounder is not around or not interested. I will be checking up here through the night during MNF to check on my fantasy football team. I will play any tourney time with you tonight Rounder, so I can be there when these quads keep falling in your game. I'm serious, name the table and time and I will be there tonight, lets get to the bottom of this.
Gator,
I haven't done the math, and have no reason to dispute your numbers. However, the question is not how many quads we should see, but how many we do see. Are there more or fewer than 1:595?
Shift to a related topic: I think it is important for this forum to be concerned about the integrity of online poker. It is an unregulated industry, and if this forum can serve as a watch dog, it performs a valuable service. There are a lot of sharp people who post here, and if nothing else, online poker parlors need to be aware that experienced and knowledgeable people are watching. That's why it annoys me when those who question the integrity of an online poker room are dismissed as whiner, loser paranoiacs.
Tom D
Tom, after 4.5 million hands or whatever that is, I'm willing to bet that the number of quads is not more or less than 1:595, rather it is equal to that number(statistically speaking of course).
As far as the rest of your comments, I behoove you to read the post I put up on 11/24 (a systematic approach...). U will then know where I stand.
"I don't understand all the venom when someone proffers a hypothesis to account for what he believes to be too many observed quads"
Please show me where in Rounders above post he even offers a hypothesis.
"WHINER LOSER"
I have no clue as to the finacial success or failure of Mr. Runder at the poker tables. I have neither insinuated nor implied that he is a loser. Your opinion not mine.
"Why don'd you disprove it?
See Spence's post. How could I disprove something that does not exist?
"Collect the necessary data, test the hypothesis, and let us know your results"
I have proven mathematically in a post below that there is no abnormality in Paradise's distribution. The formula is worked out clearly. Your challenge has been answered.
"Your posts contribute nothing"
I am going to quote you, yourself, as a respnse to this...."I don't understand all the venom when someone proffers a hypothesis"
Gator,
It doesn't appear that anyone has proven anything yet. The last I read was that hole cards were necessary to complete the task.
Tom D
On a whim, I brutalized my hard drive and loaded 6,000 saved hands from Paradise into WordPad. A search for four of a kind showed that 25 were made, six of which I held. I also would have made seven more if I had played every hand.
Most of the quads were made with pocket pairs, but a substantial number of them were made by players who(m?) I recognized as people who either played every hand or played any face card. Lots of Jxo and Qxo.
Also interesting to note, although the sample size is small, that I held nearly 25% of the quads that were made in those 6k hands.
Anybody else with a bunch of saved hands want to post their results?
Well, now the cat is out of the bag. All of those who claim that the card distribution at Paradise feels "unnatural" have been vindicated.( If you don't know what I'm talking about see below thread "If Rounder was right")In that thread TheCat posted his analysis of the 4.5 million hands posted by Paradise and it shows a small bias towards low cards ON THE FLOP. Not only is there a bias, but more importantly the lower the card the more it appears, in other words 2's hit more than 3's and so on up to the Ace. In that thread folks are unsure of the significance of this, but it's crystal clear to me. The game is juiced, the same way cigarette manufacturers added extra nicotine. Sklansky has stated that there should be a small bias for low cards on the later sts. cuz more these hands get played to the end, but this was ON THE FLOP. This means loose players who are more likely to play low cards will hit more, maybe not enough to turn them into winning players but enough to reinforce their behavior. THIS explains the suckouts. Players who play dominated aces and kings are helped the most because they will make two pairs more often, and win big pots when they do so. What this means is that more money stays in the system longer and Paradise makes more money off of interest. Winning players who cashout frequently are undesirables, because they constantly take money out of the system. I of course have no proof whatsoever that this bias is set up intentionally by the owners of Paradise, but I do know this, ifyou wanted to rig the system this would be the smartest way to do it. The bias is so small most people wouldn't recognize it and even a statistician would dismiss it, because it falls in the acceptable range of deviation, however it helps to create more action which is what all poker players (most of whom are compulsive gamblers) crave. It is also possible, that they are dealing more high cards before the flop, this would also create more action and be undetectable, since no one gets to see all of the hole cards together. I had already stopped playing hold'em on Paradise, because it's too easy to rig hold'em on a computer based game, and I didn't like the way things felt. If you wanted to rig a game hold'em is by far the best game to rig. the reasons are mutiple and simple. First of all you always know the maximum amount of cards that will be dealt-in a ten handed game that is 25, this gives you 27 cards to use to rig the game, more than any other game. Secondly players folding doesn't change the rhythm of the cards or who gets what, like in stud. Thirdly, since everyone's cards are face down it's hard for players to know who has what and who is being helped, if it was one person that would be obvious, but if it was a classof players, say 'loose players' how would you know. Fourthly, changing only one card has more impact on hold'em than any other game, making easier to manipulate, in Omaha for example players are more likely to have redraws which graetly complicates rigging the game, this doesn't make it impossible just harder to do in an undetectable way. Folks can say what they want, I have seen enough, well I still would like to see the hole cards that accompanied these hands, but it's clear to me that the popularity of Paradise is due to more than just their better graphics and server reliability. The most popular game online is low limit hold'em and they've got the most action (in more ways than one)
It makes sense that we would see a slight bias towards low flops because when players see the flop they tend to have high cards; conversely, when the whole table folds and no flop is seen, the chances are increased that more players held low cards, meaning that the flop was more likely than usual to be biased towards high cards. But this flop is not seen by the players at the table nor is it included in Paradise's flop data.
Do you think that it would be stretching it to speculate that perhaps this same bias exists in live cardrooms too, Joel, and for the same reasons?
Joel admits the "bias" is statistically insignificant yet he still is formulating scenarios which make the bias profitable for Paradise.
Perhaps if the data showed every card flopped at EXACTLY the same frequency he would then be satisfied that all is on the up and up.
I have not yet seen one single piece of data that shows ANYTHING unusual or unexpected about the games at Paradise Poker. Quite to the contrary, the only numbers anyone has yet produced (theCAT) PROVE that fact.
The ideas that something is not right at PP are substantied only by that...IDEAS. I have seen nothing else. No tangible evidence, nothing. Nothing but vague memories, feelings and theories.
Considering the assinine theories that I have been reading recently, I'd be very wary to side with some one based on their postulations alone. I'd advise people to get some FACTS together before posting your theories here. It will only help you support your opinions and make you at least appear somewhat smarter. This forum that could serve intelligent converstaion has degenerated into a circus. I know I have been laughing alot.
Reality check, dufus.
A few points
M-I agree that such a bias could exist in a live cardroom, there's just one problem, it is extremely rare on Paradise in the low limit games that there is no flop. And even if that was the case why would the mumbers appear in inverse order of their strength? Also I disagree that no-flop hands are because of low cards primarily, some of them are due to bad combinations of cards.
Sammy B-'Statistical significance' relates to randomness, and means that a statistician would not think the percentage was high enough to matter, however if cards show a bias, even a tiny one, it still affects the game and how players react, if people draw out more often, they'll start looking to draw out more often. Let me give you an analogy-if I create a medicine that cures 98% of patients of arthritis, but kills 2% of them right away, that 2% is considered 'statistically insignificant', but those folks are still dead and their deaths still affect their families and can cause profound effects in their behavior, (like causing them to protest the use of the drug). This is why I said this is the smartest way to rig the game, the deviation falls within an acceptable limit, but still affects the players behavior.
Gator-Your request for data struck me as odd, since my post is based on an analysis of the flops that was posted here, if you disagree with me fine, but don't mischaracterize my post. Also why did you engage in an ad hominem attack, and not deal with any of the questions I raised?
Planet Poker Player-a "diatribe" is defined as 'bitter and abusive speech' I don't think that my post is either. Rather I think it is a reasoned and conservative conclusion based on evidence posted here. I did not say for instance that Paradise is corrupt or crooked, or that I lost my money due to their evil program, or that there are too many high hands, or any of the other way out things that have been posted here. I do not think that me saying that they are attempting to boost the efficency of their venture is way out or kooky. Also because a certain range of deviation is acceptable, doesn't mean that it has no effect, it only means that the effects are not important to a statistician. If I were to boost the amount of aces by 2% that would fall within an acceptable range, but if you knew that, you could still profit off of it in the long run. And your profit would be of great significance to you.
Joel, first of all that post was honestly not directed at you, It was meant to be an original. I posted it in the wrong spot.
Second, you missed the forest for the trees on that analysis. The conclusion was that the cards were distributed randomly, there was NO bias. The so called "bias" for the low cards was just an observation that the non flops were not seen, so high card would-be flops are not represented. Those flops would have most likely been high therefore evening up the playing field. End result=random distribution.
The whole point of proving that these cards are random is to prove that they are NOT predictable. Small cards are only more likely to fall when everyone is holding big cards. They DO NOT have a slightly better chance to hit the flop than any other card! There is no data to support this and no correct interpretation does either! Random is random. How are you going to know that your opponents are holding big cards before the flop? Just because they call before the flop? No, this is only something you can see after the fact. They may not have big cards at all but, to use your logic, "good combinations" You can gain no edge by staying with low cards, you will be missing the point again if you haven't changed your mind at this point.
As for your medicine analysis, you are wrong again. Why did it kill the 2% and not the 98%? Maybe it wasn't the med that killed that 2% but natural causes or something else (maybe another med they took in combonation with it) We say that that number is insignificant because it is small enough compared to the rest of the data that there may be some other explanation.
Condoms are 100% effective in theory, but only 98% in use, is that a flaw in the idea of condoms? Do the condom manuafacturers intentionally create ineffective products? No, it is just a simple fact that some things in nature are beyond control. Just as Trojan can not be held responsible when some jackass uses a condom wrong, neither can PP when the cards did not fall exactly 891221 times each on those boards. The card distribution by Paradise was intended to be perfect, do you honestly belive otherwise? what is their motive for doing so?
By the way I work in the medical field and the stats area is a little different here. A 2% chance of death would be considered a very high risk of death for an arthritis med, but a very low risk for removing a brain tumor. It is all relative my friend, even in poker
Gator, First of all, aspirin was the med I had in mind, while it doesn't cure arthritis (only provide relief) it does kill some people who have extreme allergic reactions to it, and can kill people with serious ulcers. Many meds cause severe side effects in a small percentage of the people who take it, Prozac appears to be just such a drug, the overwhelming majority of people who take it it helps, but some people take and then commit suicide (it's a drug for depression). Secondly, I'm not buying the no-flop explanation just yet, for this reason, how many no-flop hands were there? Without that answer we don't know if that theory is correct or not. Also even if all the pocket cards were low there would need to be no pairs and no suited connecters for everyone except the bettor to fold. Also no one said there was no bias, they said it was 'statistically insignificant', which is a very different thing.
Oz may say that the man behind the curtain (organized criminals) should not be paid attention to. He isn't fooling anyone.
Joel,
This sentence in your diatribe speaks volumes:
"The bias is so small most people wouldn't recognize it and even a statistician would dismiss it, because it falls in the acceptable range of deviation,..."
If it falls into an acceptable range of deviation, how can you conclude an intentional bias?
Now, if it fell OUTSIDE an acceptable range, you would be on to something.
That is like saying "I lost $200 at a 3/6 table today against players I should have beat. Even though my loss was within an acceptable range of deviation, I conclude that someone loaded the deck so people could suck out on me."
Try again - and this time, find a bias that statisticians would NOT miss.
Joel,
Sorry, no cats out of bags; see my answer in that same thread to TheCat. It is the same answer M gives above this post.
But then TheCat gives another great piece of data about online poker: Collusion may be the big problem, not biased cards. And he says why....read that if you are looking for why the games might appear tough or the cards biased.
Mark
WHAT IS STOPPING PEOPLE FROM HAVING MULTIPLE ACCOUNTS...WHAT IS BEING DONE to PREVENT THIS??
Why dont you direct this question to paradise support and see what their answer is.While your at it why dont the rest of the skeptics direct all their conspiracies to them also and post their respnose.All this speculations by everyone is starting to make me sick.We should rename this forum the X FILES.
Yes there is a statisticaly insignificant skew in the flops file, demonstrating a slight bias towards lower cards.
Lets try to explain it:
Could it be an unintentional flaw in Paradises shuffling or random number generator. I don't think so. If it was unintentional and significant then the values would be outside of statistical significance and it would not demonstrate a propensity for low card to high card.
Could it be an intentional bias in Paradises shuffling or random number generator, to deliberately create a bias. Not a chance! The ability to slightly modify the randomness while still keeping the cards within the standard deviation would be challenging, though not impossible. However, if they did, would you not think that they would also have massaged the data to wipe out the pattern they created. Any company that would go to such extents would NOT release the data demonstrating their "flawed" shuffling, OR they would have slighltly changed the data to remove the bias. Neither of which happend.
Generally, many are falsly concluding that the skew is only explainable by a flaw, intentional or otherwise in Paradises shuffling or random number generation.
They fail to see that there is another "cause and effect". The problem is the data represents ONLY the flops seen, it is not all the flops. There IS a direct relationship between the flops seen and the cards within peoples hands. Lets take a look at two extreme cases.
Lets assume that the cards have been dealt and the flop would have contained Ac, As, Ah. That means that there are considerable less high cards that could have been dealt to the 10 players. It is therefore more likely that more people will be folding, that flop of three Aces will be seen less often then many other flops.
The opposite is also true. Lets assume the flop would have been 2s,2d,2c. This means that there are three less low cards dealt to the 10 players, therefore there is less low cards available and more high cards in players hands.
Ask yourself another question, if a flop is folded around is it more or less likely that the players who folded had low cards or high cards? I would hope you said low cards. So with 9 people folding whose hands contained low cards, that leaves 44 unseen cards probably skewed with a lot of high cards. The problem is these flops are seen less often.
Lets assume for a moment that Paradise did in fact create an intentional bias to compensate the poorer players to keep them around longer.
The data demonstrates that two's appears 0.076228 percent of the time. A perfect distribution should show that any card should appear 1/13 or 0.076923 percent of the time. Therefore two's appear 0.000695 more often then they "should have".
This means that there will be one more 2 dealt every 1428 hands. Hardly enough to give poor players any kind of an edge, not nearly enough to overcome the negative E.V. In fact any poor player who plays poor cards would not last nearly long enough to derive any benifit from the skew.
The fact that the data distribution is statisticly insignificant not only says that the cards are within normal values, it also says that the propensity of one card over another is not enough to give people who play poor cards any type of an edge.
Given the following: If most people play high cards, and most people fold low cards. What SHOULD the data that contains only the seen flops look like?
I am unsure if the data you have shows the limits, however I believe my above theories could be proved if they did.
I contend that the flops would have a more even distribution that is directly related to how often they are seen.
For example in heads up higher limit play the skewing would be more noticible than low-limit 10 handed and much more than 10 handed play tables.
Does your stats have the tables they came from and if they do could the card frequency be published.
Jodder,
I don't have the time or the will to do much to assist Paradise at the moment, but I completely agree with the notion that more low cards on the flop are completely normal if only played flops are shown. Both Sklansky and I (and now others) have posted comments which agree with the analysis above. It is completely obvious that flops will show more low cards, and the difference between low cards and high cards is probably lower than I would have suspected, one reason I initially missed the differences.
Mark
This is the brightest, and most thorough post I have read on this forum in a while. Not only does Jodder present his material in a highly organized and articulate fashion, he provides examples and explanations as well. I only wish I had such an ability.
As for your analysis, on the freq. of low cards and high cards, right on. This is what I have been trying to explain all along. Actually DS said the same thing in a much abbreviated manner in a thread below. I don't know if you have read that, I may be hard to find in all the garbage.
I am still waiting for DS to offer an expalnation as to why the frequencies decrease in strict numerical order. I would also greatly value your insight, here is my question.
We know that statistically in a completely random enviorment that all cards would appear "equally". In a poker enviornment we would expect low numbers to appear slightly more frequently given that players tend to hold higher cards when there is a flop. (That just sums up your post.) Why is there such regularity in the descending order of appearence? Using the above logic would imply that people are that much more willing to stay in a hand holding a 7 than a 6, and with such consistency through millions of trials that the numbers appear in linear fashion. I don't know if that is a true assumption. Given the nature of statisical variance, and the fact that the frequencies of these middle numbers are as close as the Florida recount, I would be more likely to expect a jumbled (even slighty) result. Remember, if we just drew three cards at random in a simple trial each would have the expectation to appear an equal number of times. We know that they are not going to be literally equal, but statistically. A two might appear more than an Ace but a 5 may appear the most and K the least, you get the picture.
There should be NO detectable pattern. In this case there is a linear pattern, that is for sure. I posted a summary about the nature of random number generation with a computer. You should read this post if you haven't, and check the site I listed. I think that random number "seeding" is a more plausible explanation, than saying that players will play more 8's than 7's or such. What is your opinion?
I want to be absolutely sure there is no misunderstanding my rationale for the less intuitve that may read this and get the wrong idea. This in no way implies or suggests that the random number algortithm of PP is faulty or mistaken. I belive it is as perfect as it can be. That is statiscally proven. I am just wondering about the rationale for a trivial quirk.
please answer the question
La Cosa Nostra. What the heck do you want me to say? I am merely a college student living in Gainesville, Florida (Gator...duh)
Even if I knew that answer, and told you, why would you believe it?
All I know about PP is they pay my tuition, to be more specific, they provide the arena in which I can earn my tuition. They send the checks, thats all I care about.
probably not
"I am merely a college student living in Gainesville, Florida (Gator...duh) "
Now all the spelling errors and faulty logic make sense.
Why Gator, is it so surprising to you that there is a slight propensity to prefer cards in exactly ascending order? If so, the small differences ought to be quite accurately reflected in the statistics, given the huge size of the sample.
I follow your logic and agree with it somewhat. You are absolutely corrrect that if people preffered cards according to increasing rank, the large sample size we have here would show the seperation (as seen). However, I think that it is a hypothesis of yours and not the best one. If this can be proven mathematically I would have no recourse but to agree, I am no math expert such as yourself, but I think linear seeding in random number generation is the culprit and not that more people will see a flop with 89 then 78 leaving a bias that sees a 7 flop more often then nine. If however the numbers were placed in the seed order AKQJ1098765432, this is what you would see.
I really don't follow your RNG seed hypothesis. That aside: you seem to not understand the perfect ordering of the frequency with which the different card values appear on seen flops. If this is correct: what perfect order? In the "The numbers you requested" post by TheCat in the "If We Thought Rounder Was Right" thread below TheCat gives the following order:
2 3 4 6 5 7 9 T 8 Q K J A
There's just that bit of scrambling that I feel you are looking for — by no means perfect order. Or have I misunderstood something?
Yes, I have made a big mistake. For some reason, (I have no explanation why) I had copied down the numbers TheCat posted as being:
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 J Q K A
in that order of frequency. I percieved this a being peculiar. I had expected them to reflect something more like the order in which you refer too. I went back and looked at that post again. You are absolutly right, the order that TheCat posted was indeed:
2 3 4 6 5 7 9 T 8 Q K J A
That is exactly the type of distribution I would expect. That is perfect randomness with consideration to poker flops. There is absolutely no bias, none! Nothing peculiar, predictable or strange about this.
I feel foolish about making such an error, but also vindicated that my logic was correct. The seed hypothesis is valid. It is a function of computer generated randomness, however it seems PP has designed their RNG very well and it is complex enough, that no pattern is discernable or predictable, even after 4.5 million flops. Unless that above is the pattern.....wink...wink. Thank you for allowing me to realize the errors of my ways
I hope you can do the same for me in the future!
On that note I just want to say: let's all cut down on the confrontations and try to cooperate by discussing instead of attacking (not to you personally, Gator, but a general statement). Let's try to understand each other, and most of all the issues, instead of focusing on winning the debate. This can be hard sometimes in the heat of a debate, especially when you find someone stupid in their statements, and I am by no means immune to this, but let's all just try. Thank you.
Jodder, the question isn't how many flops will contain an extra deuce, but rather how many will contain any low card, say 6 or lower. This is because there is likely to be more than one player in a hand playing low cards and only one of them needs to be helped for a suckout to occur. If it's one in 1428 for a deuce only what is it for any card lower than a 6?
Agreed Joel,
My example indicated only a single deuce. However, looking for low cards, (cards under 6), would apear more than the once every 1428 times. However it would still not occur with enough occurance to make playing low cards a positive EV play.
That calculation was also based on the fact that the cards were infact skewed from lower to higher. I believe the rest of the post indicated that this was NOT the case.
Jodder, I agree it wouldn't make it a positive EV play, but it could encourage a loose player to play these cards more often, after all these guys don't care about EV. My point is that even a small bias can cause a feedback loop to occur, because if more guys stay, people win more when they hit and are encouraged even more. I would be interested in what the number is for any card below a six. And the cards were skewed from lower to higher, just not in exact order.
The only feedback loop I see is one that lets a player catch a low pair slighty more often on the flop and be up against a higher pair. They call all the way down to the river as a 12:1 dog (I'll even add your imaginary bias (.90%))so 11:1 dog (rough guesstimate). Now they lose more often with a dominated hand because they might have folded on the flop had they not paired that deuce.
What if that deuce is not up against an over pair? Then they are definately up against two overcards at the least and that player would be drawing correct most of the time.
There is no way that this can benefit the loose cannon period, It winds up costing them more.
I'd give up a <1% edge to any player anyday to be an 80% favorite in a hand more often. Think about it.
Gator, It's funny how you only selected the example that fit your hypothesis. If you read my original post carefully, you'll see I wasn't talking about people playing low pairs, but about when they are dominated but call with ace-baby or king-baby and win with two pair. My point is not that they now have pos. EV, only that they will now play these hands more often. It may be true that there is no low card bias at Paradise Poker, but it's certainly not true that if a low card bias did exist that it wouldn't help to reinforce bad play.
Not to keep beating a dead horse but then what are you trying to say? If players call with bad hands, they are making mistakes. When mistakes are made, good players get richer. If you think the bad players are more inclined to play bad hands (K-baby, A-baby....) "because low cards flop more often" they are making more mistakes. SO what if they play crap more often, tha'ts good news. This benefits solid play. This would be a landmark proposal, because you would be the first person to ever suggest that the Paradise distribution favors GOOD players.
And don't try and come back with they win more often because of that small propensity towards small cards on the flop (it's simply not true, small cards are only more likely when the field is holding big cards. Same concept as card counting in blackjack.).
While I'm on that topic, why don't you believe that this is the reason for the slight favor in small cards we have seen with the flop analysis? What do you suggest is the reason for this?
Who do you think is the ultimate benefactor for small flop cards and why?
If you go back and read my original post, you will see that all I ever said was that the game on Paradise was JUICED, not crooked or corrupt.
First of all, there IS a bias towards small cards in the flops on Paradise, that is uncontrovertably established by the data. The question is why?
there are at least three possible reasons
1. There is an error in the card generation algoritm 2. Paradise deliberately set things up this way 3. High card rich flops get seen at a lesser rate
even if the reason is #3 this still means that actual flops will be slightly more likely to contain small cards (because those high card rich flops will continue to remain unseen)
Who does this benefit? in the long run good players will make more money, but they also will suffer more suckouts and a higher variance-like in any loose -aggressive game But I think Paradise benefits because there are more thrills for the loose players (juiced), not enough to make them winners, just enough to make them prefer Paradise to other sites, and they get to hold everbody's money a little longer
Let's face it there are many more bad players than solid players, if the game is juiced (and that hasn't been proven, only proposed) it gives everybody a little more of what they were looking for, solid players get the money, loose players get the thrill of sucking out, and Paradise gets to hold everybody's money a little longer and make more interest.
That's all I was saying, and if you re-read my original post that should be very clear
You finally proposed a COMPLETE hypothesis/theory. Your THOUGHT is logical and a possibility. Let us now determine how much of one by appling science to test it.
Your proposal states that the game is "juiced", intentional or not, to give more action because more low cards, flop more often. Lets apply the NUMBERS! I'm not going to go back and recalc the exact percent deviations, but TWO's, were the extreme and it was less than 1%. A quick glance would at the numbers show even closer frequencies to the mean. I can accurately guess that the combined freq for 2,3,4,5,6 to be ~3%.
Do you really believe that the extra 3 hands in 100 you would see a low card more are going to create that much more action? I don't.
Another thing. You have clearly stated that you are not going to believe "High card rich flops get seen at a lesser rate " without more evidence. I respect that, but we are never going to be able to see flops that don't flop.
So consider this, this low card flop idea is NOT unique to online poker. This is what we see in "real life" also. However, no one has ever manually recorded 4.5 million flops from "real life". This would be very tedious.
Computer simulations would not be useful, because they would be biased to the program i.e. it takes real people in real situations to see a flop or not. A computer can not simulate this without being predictable. It would need human-like artificial intelligence. We don't have that technology yet.
Online poker data allows us to analyze millions of hands from "actual human" play. DS never had this amount of data to play with when he came up with his theories. Yet, they are accurate. He stated the same reason for low flops as I have. If you don't want' to take my word for it, you should really consider taking his!
If one of these online poker sites was willing to have thier program generate a flop and save it even for the hands that had no flop. This would be a relatively simple modification. Of course this would serve no purpose to them (may clear them of unwarranted critism though) it would be for educational or purposes. As it stands now maybe Planet with Caro and Cooke would support this. Anyone with connections could you look into this?
Gator, 3 hands in a hundred, is about 1.5 hands per hour on Paradise, would you want to win 1.5 more hands per hour, I certainly would, if the loose players hit even one of those hands that makes a difference in the game, think about it. One big hand is often the difference between a winning or losing session.
You are assuming again. You are assuming that they win those 1.5 extra hands an hour u claim. You are also assuming that it will be a big pot. Just because they hit two pair with K4o on the flop or the river doesn't mean they are going to win that hand. They could be up against a better hand or better draws. Also no guarantee that the pot will be big, maybe everyone else folds right there or he gets just one caller to the river.
The speed of PP just ensures that the <*(((>< loses his money that much quicker. Sure they sometimes flop or river a boat with Q6o, but do you think a >3% bias to small flops is a major factor in thier motivation to keep playing garbage.
Yes I would love to win 1.5 more hands per hour!!!
At one point I downloaded the flops file; I must have way too many files/programs on my computer because when I tried to open it I got "white space" and I couldn't read the text. Time to buy a new box, I guess.
My question is this: if you are analyzing omaha-8 hands, can you "divide" the board into boards that allow a low to be made versus boards that do not allow a board to be made, or do you have to consider only the full five-card board for distribution purposes?
Is it be possible that in omaha 8 the number of aces falls within normal parameters on the full, five-card board, but when comparing the data against potential low hands the number of aces might fall outside normal parameters?
I haven't attempted any "real" analyses on hands I've played, because the sample size would be too small, but what I've discovered over the last 200 plus hands of omaha 8 I've sat in is that if there are three low cards on the board (my results for the same 200 plus hands show low possibilities roughly 60% of the time, which I believe is around normal), there has been an Ace or deuce on the board nearly 50% of the time.
I'd love to see analysis from someone who has the flops file, if only to satisfy my own burning curiosity -- and to find out whether I've just been sitting in at the (*cough*) "wrong time." It seems to me that if there is a low on the board, the number of Aces through eights would roughly be 12.5% each -- not the nearly 50% combined ace or deuce it's been my unfortunate pleasure to experience.
Any volunteers out there for an omaha-8 analysis?
Mike
Mike,
I will do something for you and post it, no problem. The file is hard to mess with without a nice machine, I am using a Sun Sparc Ultra 60, works great.
Mark
Heres a simple look at the problem with a trick I learned from DS a long time ago. :) There are 52 cards in a deck (for simplicity sake lets say 50) that means each card has a 2% chance of being picked at random. (1 out of 50 = 2 out of 100= %2) You have three cards on the flop. If you looking for Ace or Two There are 8 cards that could be it on the first card of the flop, 8 on the second, or 8 on the third. Thats 24 cards times 2% which equals 48% chance that a two or eight flops, without geting into the complicated mathmatics of why my estimate is a little high (buy TOP if you want to know) it is safe to say that 48% of seeing an A or 2 is pretty close to your "feeling" it to be about 50%. I think I know where you got the 12.5% but thats wrong. Hope you get it!
Hello again, Let me see if I understand the question correctly. You are wondering what are the probabilities of either an Ace or a 2 are on a flop? Here's a rough calculation of what you are asking.
Prob of at least 1 ace or 1 two on the flop of 3 cards out of 52.
That is the same as 1-(prob of not having any of them on the flop) (I am assuming that flopping an ace and a two, or all aces fit your criterea)
1-(prob of not fopping one of those 8 cards on flop)
1- [(44/52)(43/51)(42/50)]
44/52 represents missing those 8 cards on the first postion
43/51 represents missing those 8 cards on the 2nd position
42/50 missing those 8 cards on the third
that factors to 1-(79464/132600) or 1-.60 =.40
That means that if you chose any 2 denominations, there is a 40% chance (assuming unbiased dealing) that at least one of those 2 denominations will be on the flop. Not sure how this is relevant to omaha, but a correction to previous post was needed.
I clearly stated that my 48% was a rough estimate and a little high. I simply figured that if that person was ariving at 12.5% and requsting an anlysis of 4.5 million flops to do simple probability, I tried to make it as user freindly as possible. But nooo, you couldn't leave simple enough alone you had to show off that you know how to do math.
Well genius since your number is so accurate, you forgot to count the 4 cards in your hand. If none of them is an Ace or Deuce, that percent is even higher, so there. I let you take care of my light work and plug the numbers, I already did the tough theorical stuff for you.
I am just kidding around, don't take it personally.
Not to get into an arugument, but the post said, "What is the prob of flopping any of 2 denominations" not "what is the prob of flopping one of the denominations that you hold in your hand" I do know the difference.
Foldie,
Here is a simple list of all card in the o8 games listed, 196,185 of them, by card. To do much more would take a while but I think this speaks for itself distribution-wise. I did not look at specific cases, like only flops with low possible. But look at this anyway:
Card is As: Count is: 17566 Card is Ah: Count is: 17524 Card is Ad: Count is: 17441 Card is Ac: Count is: 17549 Card is Ks: Count is: 17622 Card is Kh: Count is: 17574 Card is Kd: Count is: 17727 Card is Kc: Count is: 17669 Card is Qs: Count is: 17651 Card is Qh: Count is: 17499 Card is Qd: Count is: 17864 Card is Qc: Count is: 17723 Card is Js: Count is: 17536 Card is Jh: Count is: 17668 Card is Jd: Count is: 17495 Card is Jc: Count is: 17760 Card is Ts: Count is: 17424 Card is Th: Count is: 17754 Card is Td: Count is: 17468 Card is Tc: Count is: 17814 Card is 9s: Count is: 17760 Card is 9h: Count is: 17606 Card is 9d: Count is: 17598 Card is 9c: Count is: 17719 Card is 8s: Count is: 17670 Card is 8h: Count is: 17484 Card is 8d: Count is: 17669 Card is 8c: Count is: 17517 Card is 7s: Count is: 17371 Card is 7h: Count is: 17558 Card is 7d: Count is: 17531 Card is 7c: Count is: 17623 Card is 6s: Count is: 17905 Card is 6h: Count is: 17377 Card is 6d: Count is: 17643 Card is 6c: Count is: 17540 Card is 5s: Count is: 17540 Card is 5h: Count is: 17938 Card is 5d: Count is: 17693 Card is 5c: Count is: 17372 Card is 4s: Count is: 17739 Card is 4h: Count is: 17798 Card is 4d: Count is: 17618 Card is 4c: Count is: 17802 Card is 3s: Count is: 17386 Card is 3h: Count is: 17377 Card is 3d: Count is: 17657 Card is 3c: Count is: 17464 Card is 2s: Count is: 17402 Card is 2h: Count is: 17668 Card is 2d: Count is: 17738 Card is 2c: Count is: 17410
Mark
Trying to clarify muddled thinking (my own):
I appreciate the work that went into the analysis, Mark. Every card falls within a quite-small range.
When I asked about the percentage of times an Ace or deuce was flopped, I was more curious about percentages in relation to each other, as opposed to percentages against the board or flop.
The 12.5% came from each of the 8 or under cards considered individually; that is, each low card has a 12.5% chance of boarding when taken into consideration against each other. In other words, if a low hand is boarded 60% of the time, wouldn't an ace or deuce occur in that low hand 25% of the time?
Mike
A while back I propesd the following question----What would be Paradise Poker's MOTIVE to rig their card dealing for these various bad beat, too many quads, advantage to newbies...etc???? Obviously, I knew the answer would be "too make more money". So I propsed the "and how would that work?" question along with it. The conncensus was that good cards would keep the "pigeons" in the game longer. O.K. sounds reasonable (didn't believe it, but it was reasonable), then I read this post by Planet Poker Player. It is way down on an almost dead thread so I thought I'd bring it up for the conspiracy theorists to see. Most knowlegable players are probably already familiar with these concepts. I hope you enjoy. Again, nicely put PPP.
"The game of Hold Em as it sits is already 'set up' to keep pigeons coming back. There is no reason to stack the deck.
We've all seen those horrible players play every hand to the river and sit there with huge stacks of chips in front of them, grinning like idiots and congratulating themselves on being great players. That single streak alone is enough to keep them coming back again and again and again - no matter how much they lose in the long run.
Just this weekend, I got slammed time and time again by pigeons hitting 4 and 6 outers when the pot was laying them horrible odds. Even though they were losing, they sure enjoyed sucking out on me - and they will go for that suckout every time, no matter the odds.
Pigeons DO live forever (figuratively). For every pigeon that goes broke there are dozens scrambling to take his place.
If they didn't, Las Vegas would cease to exist. How else can you explain the continued popularity of losing propositions like slots, roulette, craps, pull tabs, super nine, pai gow, blackjack, the lottery, etc?
If your point is that Paradise 'needs' to fund the pigeons lest they never return, you really have no point.
If you suppositions about pigeons and why they come back for more were true, Las Vegas would not exist.
The majority of gamblers are stupid. They will happily play when the odds are against them. There is no need to give them an advantage."
Actually, 7-card stud is a better game for sucking out as you are usually getting better pot odds to chase and chasing hands are typically "liver". HE, however, gives the appearance of action to loose players because they get 3-cards for the price of 1 on the flop. And then when they get any piece of it, they are trapped into calling down even when they are getting insufficient odds.
Why do you use the word "conspiracy"? Does it have some meaning or did you choose it because it is an emotionally charged word meant to classify the people who think something is wrong at Paradise with paranoid wackos?
Tom D
"Why do you use the word "conspiracy"? Does it have some meaning "
CONSPIRACY---- NOUN : Inflected forms: pl. —cies 1. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act. 2. A group of conspirators. 3. Law An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action. 4. A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design: “a conspiracy of wind and tide that devastated coastal areas.”
There is a definate faction of posters who believe PP is guilty of said actions. This applies to those people. Do you still have a problem with my vocabulary?
As for your statement..... "word meant to classify the people who think something is wrong at Paradise
PARANOIA
"NOUN : 1. A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason. 2. Extreme, irrational distrust of others.
If this word does not most accurately describe the people who think Paradise is up to no good, provide me with the evidence that Paradise is corrupt. I'm getting tired of the "apparent logic and reason". Put up something tangible. If you have not seen any such proof, yet you still believe Paradise Poker is cheating (Extreme, irrational distrust of others) maybe you should take a long hard look at yourself.
As I suspected, your use of the phrase "conspiracy theorists" couldn't be more incorrect. Conspiracy would apply to PP, but doesn't because PP is a single entity; theorists applies to the paranoid, wacko whiner losers.
I have to wonder when I see someone use derogatory, emotionally charged words to try to make a point, and I wonder more when he uses them incorrectly.
I wonder about other things, too, like why you are hopping all over this forum responding to every post concerning PP. It's reminiscent of someone scrambling about to stomp out brush fires. And I wonder when you do your school work.
Tom D
"Conspiracy would apply to PP, but doesn't because PP is a single entity"
Couldn't be more incorrect? You and I both know that Paradise Poker is a conspiracy between 2+2 and the Costa Rican mafia. That has been well documented numerous times throughout this forum. What are the odds that those posts are false? That theory recieves too much ("disproportionate") attention not to be considered serious.
"theorists applies to the paranoid, wacko whiner losers"
I am going to respond to this by pasting a few phrase from your post above.
"As I suspected" "I have to wonder" "I wonder more" "I wonder about other things" "I wonder when you"
These, obviously, are the thought patterns of a seriously paranoid shizophrenic individual. Calm down Tom, no one is persecuting you, no one is "scrambling about to stomp out brush fires". These are all a part of your delusions. Just relax, take a few deep breaths. Put the gun down.
Name calling? That's a switch.
Tom D
Sheesh..everyone is involved in conspiracies to you!
I would think that belief makes you the paranoid one, oh-delusional-one.
I really hope you identify yourself as Rounder suggested. There are ppl on this forum that play with me in live games every week. They can vouch for who I am. And you, Gator? WHO ARE YOU???
Some guy that jumps on every person that tries to share their observations about their own experiences. You attack people and call them names in an effort to inhibit people from contributing their thoughts on Paradise Poker in this forum. Well buddy, you don't intimidate me. I will continue to express my opinions and you can call me all the names your little mind can gush forth.
You can't keep attacking everyone that questions Paradise Poker. Trust me..there are legions of us.
Hope your free-roll has been refreshed by now..you have certainly earned it.
nt
Today on Paradise action is molasses slow, but usually not quite slow enough for a time-out. It seems to be affecting everyone. It’s exasperating. Timing of bets and the reading of opponents’ bet timing are two of the few tools available on the internet among many available in live action. Losing them completely changes the game radically.
My question is….what causes this slowdown? I’m hoping some of the internet experts are reading this. Since everybody seems to be affected in the situation today, this must be either a problem in the pipeline to/from Costa Rica, or a problem within Paradise’s equipment. Either way, isn’t this something which the application of large chunks of cash could resolve or at least improve?
We all know Al Gore didn’t do a completely perfect job in inventing the Internet. And, if he is at fault, we should hold his little not-quite-yet-if-ever-Presidential feet to the fire. However, if, instead, it’s that Paradise is trying to run this operation through an AOL hookup when they need a T-2000 line, or their own satellite, or whatever, well…we know they can afford it.
Can anyone provide some specifics on where the problem might lie, and on what might be done improve the situation?
ParmaPaul
What are the odds that all the paranoid, whiner loser, conspiracy theorists would independently single out Paradise Poker as corrupt?
Tom D
How do you know that all those posts are not by one or two individuals simply posting under different allias'? I'm not at all saying that they are, but how many of these people do you know in person?
You want odds.... I've posted 30 messages or so, at least two were under different titles, so I'd give you 15:1
I'm not going to get into a debate about whether or not the games at Paradise are honest, but I do want to bring up a few points.
1) Most players are losers. In fact, I would venture to say that a surprising number of regular posters on this forum are long term losers at the game. And losers, as we all know, generally like to blame their lack of success on something other than their own ineptitude.
2) Since Paradise is the largest (and, I assume, the most frequented) of all the internet card rooms, it only makes sense that it would recieve a proportionate share of criticism.
nt
It appears Paradise receives quite a disproportionate share of criticism.
Tom D
It's hard to say, since there's a chance that Paradise is recieving what would appear to be a disproportionate amount of action from on-line players.
I don't have any problem with posters discussing the integrity of any game. But I do think this kind of talk puts Paradise in a jam, since they clearly can't prove a negative (i.e., can't prove their games aren't rigged).
GD,
Online poker is unregulated. There are no watchdog organizations in place to insure these operations are honest or will continue to be honest. To assume that these outfits will always choose honesty when no one is watching is the epitome of naivety, in my opinion. Why does New Jersey have a gaming commission? Would Donald Trump steal? In the blink of an eye, if no one was watching. The same goes for Vegas, and the same goes for the stock market.
Since no one is watching, I think the "poker community", with its collective expertise, is the only defense against dishonest poker sites, at this time. This forum, in particular, can be an invaluable tool in this respect because players can freely discuss their concerns and experiences.
When people like Gator and others do everything they can to quash any discussion that something might be amiss, I have to wonder why. They would deny that that is their intention, but it is. Anyone who posts a concern about the integrity of online poker is immediatly and labeled a conspiracy theorist, paranoiac, whiner, and loser. There are probably many people who have things to say on this forum, but don't want to be ridiculed.
What is doubly annoying, is that these Gators cannot know the games are legit. They have no way of knowing, yet they continue to spout off as if we should suspend our own judgement in favor of theirs.
Lastly, I think they can prove their games aren't rigged, or to take out the negative, they can prove their games are legit. Why couldn't they publish the hand histories?
Tom D
Bravo! How wonderfully articulate of you, Tom.
You are able to formulate a post that underlines the crucial elements of what I feel. The hostility that is fired back at anyone that questions these online sites blows me away. And as you stated, people are intimidated or just don't bother to post legitimate responses because of the belligerant and ridiculing nature of the respondents, most notably Gator.
Yep I'm sure there are a lot of people "afraid" to put thier ideas and opinions, into a nameless, faceless and anonymous format. Their "feelings" could be hurt. A lot of people except you it seems.
If it was something they belived and knew to be true, wouldn't they easily dismiss me as the wacko?
What I think you were trying to say was:
"people are intimidated or just don't bother to post ASSININE responses because of the INSIGHTFUL and LOGICALLY BASED nature of the respondents, most notably Gator."
a dictionary, Gator...beg, borrow or steal one...trust me on this
"steal one...trust me on this"
....and Paradise Poker is a bunch of criminals?
I have big hands (you know what that means too) and fingers, keys on the keyboard are small. I also think a lot faster than I can type. Bad combination, that leads to miscued keys and poor grammar. I have a 19" monitor set to 1280x1024 resolution, leaving very small text, hard to see some errors, small price for the benefits though.
And I don't care, I'm not anal like that. and from Gen X, I think it's kinda cool to have things spelled wrong, internet cyber age stuff. Ya know.
You need to stop jumping to conclusions. I may spell poorly but there's a better explanation than I don't know how. thx 4 ur support!
*sigh*
Let me set the record straight.
I did not lose the first dime at Paradise Poker. My handle on there was desire as well and this fact can be confirmed. NOT THE FIRST DIME. I state this fact to quell the argument that only losers are whining about Paradise Poke. The reason I quit is gut instinct. My gut instinct has served me well through out my life...and I respect it. The preponderance of quads in the same hand (playing stud there) made me uneasy. The bad beats (playing HE there) made me uneasy. I have been playing poker in casinos for over 20 years. I just don't believe total idiots are rewarded time and time again for playing ridiculous hands. I believe they would eventually tap out and someone, mommy..daddy..legal guardian..matron at the institution they're playing from..would come and slap their hands and take their credit cards away. I play at Planet Poker and Highlands and I honestly have not come across the constant suck outs and tremendoous bad beats so frequently. So for all the people that are spewing all this techincal data..I applaud you if you have verified Paradise's randomness. I, on the other hand, until I see data coming from a respected authority like Caro or Sklansky or Malmuth or Zee, am going to go with what has always kept me in good stead..my gut instinct.
Now...I shall sit back and await the dreaded GATOR attack..should be within 20 minutes of my post if tradition follows.
desire,
The cards are random, if you read what both Bill and I wrote, you could easily see that.
But the games are too strange for me too: I really believe now after studying a lot of hands at middle and low levels that collusion is a big problem, and I think that until Paradise does soemthing publically about this to seriously discourage it, playing there is stupid. And a 3-6, 5-10 or 10-20 level player, who plays 20-30 hours per week, is paying about $1200-1500 per month rake due to game speed. This is very high to overcome...
So David Sklansky was *almost* correct about 95% of the players losing: If you count the collusion problems, I think that 98% will lose. Only good colluders and excellent 15-30 and 20-40 players have a chance to win (their rake percents are low).
Any comments David?
Mark
.
Dear Mark,
I understand your statements about collusion. I truly was less concerned with collusion because I believed in what Paradise has posted about the lengths they go to to track collusion, i.e. responding to an alarm when someone makes a move with a hand that doesnt warrant it that benefits the same player all the time. I am used to playing higher stakes in live play than the stakes I was playing on Paradise. And so it follows that the play on lower-limit is a lot looser. It just confounded me that someone with 6 8 offsuit would make runner gut, runner gut to make a straight time and time again. I honestly don't see play like this raking many pots in live casinos. Sure there is the occasional maniac that has wandered off the convention route and found himself with free liquor and a table of welcoming players. But I don't see players playing hands like that around for very long. But they're there at PP..and so it just perplexes me. And I tend to pick my action like I pick my stocks. If I don't understand things that are happening, I back off. May the chips be with you.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again..
Take note of how many times they're there to see the river, and then muck. I'll wager that they muck more times than they show 6-8 or 7-9 for the runner-runners.
Everyone notes the suckouts, but seem to forget about the payoffs.
Show me that they are catching at a high-rate, and I'll concede.
CHiP
desire,
I agree with what you've said. Too many runner runner's for me to deal with too.
And they may write they want to find colluders, but I see no evidence of that. When I brought evidence to them, they blew me off....caveat emptor.
Mark
so if that is the order from frequent to least frequent, should i be a little more inclined to play my little connectors than i normally would be?
Absolutly not!
Remember, that distribution order represents only the flops seen. Not all potential flops.
Second, assuming that there was an actual skew, the amount indicated is not enough to alter your starting hand requirements.
Nope the numbers are random. If you are holding small cards, they are that much less likley to flop. How are you going to know if your opponents are also holding small cards?
Get it?
If you are in late position and several good players have called from early position, they are very likely to have cards on the high end of the scale. Maybe the increased probability of smaller cards showing up on the board is one contributing factor, besides the pot odds and your position etc., to the fact that you may play smaller suited connectors in these situations. Or is the effect not large enough? What do you say, Sklansky? Anybody?
if you are in late position, and there are several callers already in, and the pot has not been raised, this has already been a good place to play your small connectors, I'd never play the ace or king baby unless they are suited, and def. not because I would think small cards are gonna flop.
Only if you are at my table.
they almost always flop a big hand.
6-8 in PP tournaments in NOT a random hand.
Rounder:
I have read, enjoyed and agreed with a lot of your poker advice and opinions on the forum for a looooooong time.
I don't agree with your conclusions regarding how often you have experienced quads, but I also don't doubt that you have had more than your fair share of them as well as more than your fair share of quads thrust upon you.
However, respectfully, I disagree with you or anybody posting a message that 6-8 plays like AA, albeit in tournaments.
There is a difference between posting messages regarding how often quads appear and giving very specific advice regarding playing trash.
Rounder is telling the truth. Jodder(what kind of name is that?)is nothing but a an online poker apologist.At least Rounder acknowledges who he is. Neither Jodder, nor the owners of Paradise Poker ever have. I doubt that they ever will.
"Rounder is telling the truth"
Where in my post did I accuse or even imply that Rounder wasn't being truthfull. Must have been the part where I said:
"I also don't doubt that you have had more than your fair share of them as well as more than your fair share of quads thrust upon you
If fact I consider Rounder to be a respected poster and probably one of the most helpfull towards others, especially newcomers. I attempted to convey my respect. He apparently understood, as you'll note he has responded very civilly and further expanded his position.
"Jodder(what kind of name is that?)is nothing but a an online poker apologist."
And how did you arrive at that conclusion. Once again I ask, where in my post did I say anything that implies anything positive or negative regarding on-line play. My position was and still is 6-8 is a trash hand, Rounder may have had positive experiences with it, but it should not be played like Aces.
At least Rounder acknowledges who he is. Neither Jodder, nor the owners of Paradise Poker ever have.
And you are?
I make no apologies for being anonymous. Yes, many will not treat "posting under handles" with the same credibility as people who do not. I recognise that. Why I choose to use a handle are for reasons personal me. I am aware that there are a lot of potential abuses with disclosure of personal information on the Net.
If not divulging my name is overwhelming evidence to you that I am a Paradise Sock Puppet so be it. Your logic and conclusions have been "crack on" so far.
Once again my message to Rounder disagreed with him, it was civil, did nothing to attack character and used respect, as was his reply to me. This is a concept abviously foreign to you and I can understand why you must think I have lost my mind.
I am an agent of change. A spirit, if you will, that hunts down crooks like Paradise Poker frauds.
Since I am not gonna be playing on PP after I manage to lose the $22 in my account I don't mind sharing this bit of info - 6-8 in your hand is like gold.
Sure it gets beat but usually makes a real hand.
OK maybe I lost it, a lot of people think I am crazy (including my sister and former friends) but you just watch it in tournaments.
If you can't prove it...
No I don't have the game numbers - how do I get them.
I'd love to prove it.
#33,845,127 is the game my daughter won and had quad A's and K's a few hands a part or so she told me I didn't watch the whole thing.
I am not sure there are any 68 hands here I didn't tell her about it and she has been taught not to play rags.
Maybe next month or next quarter it will be 7-5.
Averages take a long time to work out and it would be surprising if some specific rag hand did not significantly outperform its expectation for a while.
Rounder is probably right with his observation and memory, but what is actually normal is probably for there to be a hand or two that runs lucky for a while. If it were all even like a checkerboard it wouldn't be random--some hands have to get lucky for a while, just like some players. We all know what eventually happens.
^
Last night..
Paradise cheap tourney.
Deuces were golden.. I sat and watched trips and boats come up, and people were just playing 2-Jo and what not.
I shrugged it off for a while, then once I was down to the mid 300's in chips, I got 2-10s. Called 25 to see the flop. Catch one deuce on the flop. I Call with my bottom pair. Turn gives me the set. Bet. Bet. 500 and some odd chips later, I'm back in the tourney.
It was just sick. But eventually, they cooled and some real cards were played at the end. But it was nuts for a while.
But looking back, I'd say that around 10 hands were won by people playing deuces, and that only includes one pocket pair making a set on the flop.
Now my memory's not so good.. which card comes up most often??????
CHiP
Everybody says this and that happens ALL THE TIME. No one can back it up with hand histories showing where 6-8 has won more than should be expected. The bottom line is this!!! Bad players will suck out. Period end of story. If these small off suit hands were consistant winners everyone would play them all the time. Players would be mucking normally good cards to play the cards that bring home the bacon. After all a good player LIKE ROUNDER can adjust to the game NO MATTER HOW THE FISH PLAY.
Sent me 100 hand histories from one day of play where 6-8 dominated play and I'll shut up. Untill then beleive what you want. You will only hear me say two words...SHIP IT.
Heres a tip some might find useful for helping to keep records of your online play, It's what I use. Note, for Windows users only. Open your notepad from the startmenu>accessories folder. Type> .LOG (on the first line). Close the window. When it prompts u to save, choose yes, name file and save it (I save mine right on the desktop). Now open the file back up. Bam! it stamps it with the time and date. It does this every time you close (&save) the file. I'll open it when I stawrt playing, enter the game I play, then close it. When I'm done playing I put down the amount I won or lost. That way I can see how much time I have played. I use a seperate ones for Tourneys. Bookkeeping made real easy. Let me know if you find this sort of thing useful.
I am currently developing a program that allows me to track other players. Things I have noticed such as starting requirements, loose, tight etc.... little prepared notes that I just click on players name and I get a summary of thier play. Helps in tough decsions and choosing seats. Anyone, let me know if you would be interested in such a piece of software.
I can remember - even with my battle bruised brain - any unusual players - particurally good, loose, tight and bad ones. Don't need no program for that.
I'm new to Internet poker, however, such notations would seem helpful (meaning that I haven't done it yet myself).
Why would it be so helpful? Because most humans are visually oriented. I have a mental database of my human opponents (I play three times a week; I have a life). The key field of the database is visual. I'm poor at names. Remembering their propensities is important, their names aren't. But over the last month the assortment of handles I've encountered has already confounded my powers of recall (but then I'm getting old).
U say: "I can remember - even with my battle bruised brain - any unusual players - particurally good, loose, tight and bad ones. Don't need no program for that.
This is a quote from one of your recent posts.
"Well I can't remember ONE tournament where I didn't see quads NOT ONE "
So much for the old memory heh?
I have developed a program that allows me to parse hand histories from Paradise and analyze the play. The analysis of my own play was very revealing and helpful to my game.
For example, I tracked my win/loss by seat position relative to the button and found that I was defending my blinds way to often. I was losing more money defending my blinds than if I had just always folded from the blinds.
Another example, I compared my playing statistics against the statistics of better players to identify ways of improving my game.
Another part of the program allows me to track my observations about other players at the table.
Awesome. I tried doing this. My programming skills are not what they used to be.
Will it run on a PC? Or does it require SUN OS?
Are you willing to part with it?
Please email me.
The software runs on a pc. I have no documentation explaining how to use the software or how the numbers were actually calculated. It would take me a couple of weeks to document and cleanup the software for distribution. I would be willing to do this if enough people are interested.
I prefer my software, its more flexable as I have the source code. Although I have had some trouble reacently, I think its a combination of upgrading to Windows 2000, and VAJ3.5 at the time (ODBC drivers playing up).
I did hear a rumor that you could get records of your results generated and sent to you by Paradise, I don't know if this is true?
Is Gator just another cuber punk or an employee of Paradise Poker. I use the handle Rounder but most know my name is Mike Guzaldo, I have personally met a large number of the people on this BB and RGP. I have met them on the felt - where are you gator what's your name, who do you work for, come on fess up. You are a way to defensive of cyber poker when people are asking legit questions.
Come on if you don't answer the questions we will know you are just some little cyber punk.
NT
Rounder, you are an honorable man.
Gatro's posts usually seem quite sensible. I doubt he has any connection with Paradise. I don't see any reason to pick on his anonymity rather than anyone else.
Besides if Paradise did any hank panky on this site, David would stop their advertiseg which they might not like.
I still think if he is gonna be their defender he ought to let us know ho he is.
Rounder, you need a reality check. I have already posted who I am (more than once). I am sure you have picked through this forum and read everything I wrote, so I know you have seen it. I will answer any question you want. I know this is not what you WANT to hear. The truth hurts.
"Is Gator just another cuber punk or an employee of Paradise Poker"
Are these my only two choices? I am NOT an employee of Paradise Poker.
"where are you gator"
Right now I'm in my apartment in Gainesville, Florida.
"what's your name"
You have no reason to believe what I say here, I could easily make this sutff up (any of it). I have absolutely no good reason not to tell you, but on the other hand I have no good reason why I should. In the spirit of anonymity, my first name is Michael, I will leave my surname up to your imagination.
"who do you work for"
Shands Hospital
"You are a way to defensive of cyber poker when people are asking legit questions"
I do not DEFEND "cyber poker". I am not a super-hero. I had "legit questions" myself. I came here OPEN MINDED in search of answers. A lot of what I saw at first was nothing but talk. Lots of people talking a lot of trash with nothing to back up their concepts, legit OR outlandish.
I have now seen evidence that things are normal at Paradise Poker. I have even proposed logical, mathematical, and scientific ideas of my own to support that they are. I defend MY ideas' and those of others I hold true. This is the only way they can be verified, tested and possibly disproven.
I understand this forum is open to all people all over the world. I live in the United States of America. In my country we believe that people (even corporations like Paradise Poker) are innocent UNTIL proven guilty.
A lot of what people say about Paradise here is libel. Why do people want to destroy the credibility of this company when they have no evidence to support thier opinions?
Most people assume that these theorists are losers. I don't neccesarily hold the same assumptions. That just fuels them because they may not be (at the very least they may "believe" they aren't). In a way this proves to them that they are right. Their "fuzzy logic" causes them to believe there preconcepted notions even more. i.e. "There are too many quads at PP"....."No there aren't (insert eveidence) you must be a loser looking to blame someone else"......."I know I am not a loser, therefore there must be too many quads at PP."
Rounder, you and the other "conspiracy theorists" need to open your minds. Be prepared to accept the fact that you may be wrong. Read the evidence and CONSIDER it!! If you don't believe something refute it with FACTS. You can not prove opinions with opinions. In fact, you can not prove "opinions" at all. I'll respect yours, but you must be prepared to back them up if you want to share them.
I proposed to you why you see more quads than real life at PP. You responded that you don't even remember a single tourney that quads weren't shown, NOT a single one!!!!!!! That was your big comeback? The answer that makes you a person we should listen to and whose ideas we should redpect? Do you realize what a foolish statement like this does to your credibility?? I have played over a hundred $10 and $20 Tournaments at PP. You are flat out wrong. I will play with you any time in a tourney and we'll count the quads that show. If you don't want to risk your money at a "shady outfit", you can watch at the table for free, I'll play. Let's do it.
Tom D, desire, you folks are even more ridiculous with your ideas. "see how fast he posts" "putting out fires" "when does he do his schoolwork"......
Sun and Mon I was at home on my computer working on my final project for a C++ class. I was on the computer literally day and night getting it finished in time. I left my browser open too. I checked this forum numerous times to break the tedium, since I had posts and threads going. I was enjoying my self, sorry. You see, if you look in the right places there are logical reasons for things, not conpiracies around every corner.
I like Paradise Poker. It is the only place to play if you live in this state. (Don't get me started on the cruise ships or Indian reservation games) I used to play in a regular homegame, that has broken up. I have been playing poker for 3 years. I learned the game because I was playing in said homegame once a week for fun. I saw the movie Rounders, it inspired me. I bought the books, (first time I read TOP, I checked it out of the library here!!!) I studied them I did the reasearch and I became a consistent winner. I was easily able to win $40 a week avg in a .10-$1.00 spread limit game. The game was so soft, I rarely had a losing night. I tried to loan the books to these players. I wanted tougher competition, I wanted to become real good. They laughed, they said you can play by your "odds" if u want, this is gambling. I miss those days. By the way I discovered this forum way back then, when MASON would say "This post belongs on the Exhange Forum". Since the game died, and since reading the general forum became tedious. There are only so many way to play AK in the sb. I have been to this site a lot less often. Then I discovered Internet Poker. I'm back.
I have been playing there for a month. I am only beginning to establish financially security. Therefore I play .5/1.00 and the $10 and $20 tournaments. I initially bought in for $50 and that was it. I cashed that back and have over $500 in my account. That's after moving to up the $2/$4 game one night. I did not play right in that game, Many times I folded or failed to raise because $12 was a lot to me on a top pair Ace kicker hand, It was $112 reinforcement of the lesson Don't play with scared money!!!! I do not always play my best at PP. Usually I have the TV on or the radio, or am talking to my girlfriend on the phone, yet I still manage to win. It's early to call it the long run, but I know it's not been all lucky. I've get all those beats people bitch about every night I play. I don't blame it on PP. I blame it on the crappy play of the fish as anyone that has played with Soulfly can attest. That is my handle.
I hope you find what you are looking for Rounder.
"Rounder, you and the other "conspiracy theorists" need to open your minds"
Gator, seriously..you need to open your college books. I think you're playing way too much poker and neglecting your studies...giving your english books nary a glance. To be in college with your incorrect grammar usage is alarming. If you are, as you have stated, playing poker to pay for tuition, you may want to pay special attention to your english courses. There are so many grammatical errors in your posts it is almost laughable to hear you say you are using poker winnings to put yourself through college. Maybe Mickey D's would be able to get the tuition you need AND give you time to crack open those oh-so-expensive books you need for your courses. It's scary to read "college educated" people's posts with so many mistakes in spelling and usage. A spell checker...don't leave home without it.
Theres a reason you should be concerned with the quality of my education and the cost of my books. You have been paying for them. You said in the past that you have played at PP under the name desire. My records show that I've taken your money. Sorry if this is a little blunt. Maybe your concern about books should be relected inward. Your play is atrocious (did I spell that right?). You should buy a book or two for yourself, you can find some wonderful ones on this site.
Little boy, and that's EXACTLY what you are..a little boy with a BIG mouth...you havent taken the first dime from me...so go shoot your mouth off at someone else.
I read how long you've been playing AND at what limits. You are all mouth...and such a big mouth for a BOY with no money. Keep running your mouth, but stay in school...not much you can buy in the REAL world playing for nickels and dimes like you do.
"Little boy, and that's EXACTLY what you are..a little boy "
No, I am 6'4'' and weigh 245 pounds. When I am not winning at poker, I play basketball and lift weights. I also enjoy long walks on the beach and romantic dinners......
"not much you can buy in the REAL world playing for nickels and dimes"
true desire, and even less when you squander them *cough* *cough*
I do not apologize for being a student or a "a BOY with no money" as you suggest. I only imagine where I'll be with twenty more years experience at the age of 40.
Desire, you should go to college and learn how to use ellipses properly before you lambaste the grammar of others.
What a jerk.
HoJu
*********************SMACK******************
And I usually avoid YOURS.
n/t
This might not be a popular stand, but when you see people constantly abusing the all-in protection and time out with hands that most propably are beat, just to see them pull in hundreds of dollars, everybody must agree that something should be done?
How about, instead of the general all-in protection, instituting a chance to appeal for people lose money when their hand is folded as a result of bad connection (of course there is a question of who is to pay if players were to be conpensated, but somehow I don't think there would be that many appellants)?
Or how about setting up some tables with no all-in protection, so that those of us who are tired of being cheated by these people (who belong in prison), can sit down and have an honest game?
And finally: Is there ANYONE who feels that the problem of players timing out deliberately is taken sufficiently serious by the various poker sites?
Fr
Paradise does crack down on this type of abuse. They have responded quickly and satisfactorily to any complaints I've made about suspicious timeouts.
I have not encountered this problem at Planet, but 90% of my play is at Paradise. I've seen significantly more timeouts at Planet, but not the type you're talking about.
My connection leaves lots to be desired. Not only that, but thier are lots of European players whose connections are much worse.
I also report every player that goes all-in after the flop if I think its shady.
Lots of people go all-in. 90% of the ones I've seen usually are fish who end up showing down 68o UTG. So you know it was a connection problem.
No intelligent person would purposely go all-in in early position. When thier hand gets shown at the end it is pretty obvious whether the all-in was purposeful or not.
Just make sure you email PP support when you see abuse.
This is a tough one.
They really can't scrap the all-in protection because of the nature of the connection.
All they can really do is try to crack down on the abusers. I have noticed the users that I have reported for things like all-in and 'chat abuse' seem to behave much better the next time I play with them.
It is true that many, many new players like to see what they can get away with when it comes to using all-in as a weapon. I have noticed that they knock it off pretty quick when they are reported.
I agree it's a drag but it is not going to go anywhere.
The best defense against people who use all-in as a weapon (or violate other rules) is to immediately report them, let them know you are reporting them, and encourage others to report them.
I usually hate being a snitch, but if snitching is the only tool I have to protect myself from these morons, I have no choice but to use it.
If you play at Paradise you can at least lobby for the removal of all-in protection for players who time out WHILE CONNECTED. This is particularly galling and I have been eliminated from 2 tournaments by players who pulled this move.In my mind there is just no justification for allowing such blatant cheating - so what... someone can answer the door in the middle of a hand? ( a tech at Paradise actually used this example as a LEGITIMATE excuse!!!) If enough players demand a change we may get it.
The 1st time I played online, I got AQ suited, got a A and two of my suit on the flop and got disconnected. I won the amount in the pot at the time out. Today I had J8 in the BB and the flop was 886 Turn was 6 and when I bet it a guy timed out and sure enough he had a 6. I reported him as this was blatant cheating. I am not sure what else we can do? So I believe that the time out feature is needed for internet poker. But I also agree that in cases such as I just described where it is obvious that the player is cheating that the people running the site need to police these cheaters. The only way they can is if we report them when it occurs.
I actually read a post where someone described a similiar situation an the river with multiple callers. He sent an e-mail to PP describing the event in detail (the #of bets he lost). They added the money to his account. Don't know if they still do that or not. It would be hard to prove in your situation how many bets were lost though.
The system administrator replied back within a few minutes after I reported the incident. They seem to take a proactive response to these type of shenanigans. I think that is all we can ask of the site.
Having played a ton on Paradise I have seen a lot less all-ins than I would expect.
However, I have responded a couple of times to Paradise when it was clearly obvious someone cheated and they did nothing.
Strange story, although I don't know if demonstrates anything.
Don't remember the exact hand but on I was on a flush draw with a low underpair. I called turn bet and then my kid fell down the stairs. Took care of the little guy and returned to the game. I was all-in and won the hand. I reviewed it and I missed my draw and never would have called the river (the other guy missed his draw and bluffed). It looked clearly like I was using my all-in to cheat.
I apologized to the table and told them I would contact PP to get the hand reversed.
I Immediately contacted PP but had their e-mail wrong. Two days later got a mail rejected notice. Totally shocked however that they didn't contact me first (unless the other players didn't contact them when they should have).
I sent another mail saying reverse the $84 dollars to the real winner. They then made a nice jesture and covered half the cost.
I have been watching the debate between the supporters and detractors of online poker, specifically Paradise poker. It's pretty easy for me to see what is going on. Paradise games are tough. Very tough. They are tough because they are aggressive. Aggressive games have a tendency to look "funny". If you get caught between two aggressives, one with a clue and one without, one is going to be raising with a hand worse than yours while the other is going to be raising with one that may be better than yours. It looks like collusion, especially when it happens to you a few times in one night. A wrong decision in this type of game will cost you much more than it will in a loose game. People complain the games don't "feel right". Of course they don't. I have never encountered a game as aggressive on a consistent as the Paradise game from 10-20 up. That includes occassional sit-ins on the Trump Taj 50-100 game.
Over 200 hours at Paradise playing different limits, but mostly 10-20 and up, I was down $2000. Over 200 more hours, playing on sites other than Paradise at limits 15-30 and 20-40, I am up $12k. That's a 14k difference. I don't think I'm a strong enough player to beat the Paradise upper limit games on a consistent basis. But I am good enough to beat other online games. So why go back? You want to swim in the shark tank, prepare to get eaten up.
Some people say that the toughness of these games are not due just to hyper-aggressive play, but also to "shady" factors, like collusion or a faulty RNG. Well, the analysis of the flops so far have proven to look fairly normal. Certainly no readily exploitable differences. If collusion is going on, why do these colluders pick the toughest games to practice their collusion? Why not go to other sites where they can make more money? If I am going to risk getting caught, I might as well do it at the most profitable place, and there are several sites offering games easier than paradise's. Bottom line for me: if collusion is going on at upper limit Paradise games, all it does for me is shifting the games from Very Tough to Impossible. Either way, I don't want to play.
GREAT POST.
You are completely correct. But I think the lower limit games, especially 3-6 and 5-10 have another two problems: Collusion is more likely there, and with Paradise's likely lack of great interest in finding collusion, colluders at a 5-10 game can do well, and make that game impossible. Plus you are paying $1500 per month rake to play in this game if you only play 25 hours a week at 3-6 or 5-10 due to game speed. So take the toughest game you will ever see, add probable collusion and then add high rake per hour at lower levels, what do you get, you said the word: Impossible.
Again: GREAT POST...
Mark
PS This is why Planet should update their graphics and get their servers running. After only a few hours there I could not stand it. By the way, TruePoker looks very cool and seems to stay up too.
I agree with hetron's post that the games at PP are very tough and agressive and that is why most people will not do very well there.
However, I do not understand your post. Why is it that collusion is more likely at 5-10 and 3-6. You make this blanket statement but have absoluteley no reasoning to back it up.
Furthermore you complain about the size of the rake and again I do not understand this complaint. I am not aware of what the rake is at other sites but I do not have a problem with the rake at PP. (By the way what is the rake at other sites?) The rake at PP is a maximum of $3 which is as good or better than any casino I have been to. You state that the rake is high because of the fast pace of the game. Of course you play a lot of hands per hour because it is a lot quicker than a live game but is that a bad thing? If you are a winning player the more hands you play per hour the better it is. Would you rather play 30 hands per hour? This way you would get less hands in, win fewer pots and pay less of a rake. However, I would rather play 80 hands per hour.
Mark, Many thanks to you and TheCat for doing the flop analysis. A word on collusion. There is one possible reason for colluding on Paradise that I hadn't thought of before. Because the games are so aggressive, colluders may be camouflaged better. Nothing looks to unusual about a player gutshot straight at paradise, because so many clueless players do it without proper odds. However, if the colluder knows his partner has the current nuts, it probably becomes correct to make this 'clueless' move.
you are simply a liar.
Huh? When did I claim this? And even if I did claim I was winning, I wouldn't necessarily be a liar. It might have been true at the time. Playing at the 15/30 and 20/40 at Paradise, I often had swings of $3000 over periods of 10 hours. At one point I was up more than 3k. However, I decided I was tired of constant fluctuations and left Paradise after a particularly large downward swing. I left a loser overall, -2k as I stated in my above posts. Now be a good troll and go back to the anna kournikova newsgroup.
Ignore it, it's probably just Gator or the cyber punk as I like to call him now.
Hetron:
You make a good, well thought out post. Are any of your facts or statements refuted by the conspiracy theorists. NO.
All we get is nonsense.
In any event once again you respond to them with another post that demonstrates care.
This is where their second line of defense kicks in.
"You are anonymous, therefore you must be a shill."
THanks for the compliment. The thing is, I'm a pretty wierd shill if I'm telling people not to play at Paradise because the games are too tough, albeit though I think for more legitimate reasons than those that have been bandied about by the conspiracy theorists. What kind of shill quits the site he was supposed to be shilling for and now plays 100% of the time at other sites?
Scared to let us know? Scared to be identified as a racketeer? Personal life has skeletons in the closet?
excellent post. I too found 10-20 too difficult @PP and for similar reasons. after dropping back to 3-6 I have been cashing cheques again. spitball
That explains alot!!! I've noticed 3/6 and 5/10 playing tougher that ever. Game selection has become more important. It only takes one 20/40 shark to eat a 3/6 table full of fish.
Spitball
If you have the bankroll for it, I would suggest perhaps trying some of the middle limit games at the online sites. You might find it more profitable and maybe even easier than the paradise 5-10.
Hetron,
I have tried Planet and Highlands. The games are easier but the sites are too frustrating to play at due to the many technical problems. That said, I often will play two low-limit tables @ Paradise and one @ Planet. Getting frozen out of a hand in 3-6 isn't nearly as troubling as at the higher limits. I haven't yet tried four tables at once - two Paradise, one Planet, one Highlands, but I will soon. Because the low-limit games are so much softer than mid-limits, my ev is higher than a single mid board. spitball
Good Posts
I came to this forum specifically to see what others thought of the quality of play at Paradise.
I am a pretty strong player but I find Paradise very very difficult. After about 800 hours of PP play I am up only a few hundred while I am up a ton playing against the live fish at Canterbury.
At 5-10 and up there are very few truly bad players who you really need in order to make big profits. Combine that with the aggressiveness on PP and you have an uphill climb. Strangely, I find 2-4 to have the highest EV as you seem to get a lot of players trying online for the first time (probably up a few thousand there but my ego will not let me stay).
Also, I find it hard to get a read on players online as players switch so quickly. It is simply hard for me to get a read on a dot on a screen as opposed to looking at the little ol lady next to me.
Unfortunately, I am a traveling consultant so online poker is often my only option.
I have not clue whether there is any collusion. However, if there is, it will be impossible to stop. Simply for the reason that if someone is caught they simply create a new alias and start anew.
Anybody have any further updates or information regarding poker.com cashouts?
I finally received my check along with a letter explaining that a change in banks had caused long delays. GOOD LUCK
What bank (i.e.: country) was the check issued from? Were there any difficulties in deposit?
Check was from Casino Marketing written on a Canada Bank. Just received it, hope it clears!!!
If you are going to say that 8 6 off, or any other BS hand is winning pots left and right you MUST have the hand histories to prove your claim. If you saw Quads win 12 hands last night get the hand histories!!! Get the hand history when a fish beats you time after time raising with off suit crap!!! Its a good idea to get the hand histories at the end of each and every session you play. There are valuble lessons to be learned in your own hand histories. An added benefit would be able to tell a guy like me to shove when you prove your claim of winning with 3 Royals in a row.
If you can't prove it.....IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!!!
I say let them remain as unconfirmed rumours. Stuff like this is so silly why even aknowledge it?
Let Rounder play his 68o and run around with his Quad paranoia.
I have better things to worry about.
OBTW I flopped Quad 8's earlier today. ;)
"OBTW I flopped Quad 8's earlier today. ;)" Yeah right...whats the hand #......LOL....I beleive you. But if you come back claiming Quads three or four more times today you will have to put up or shut up. I've flopped Quads on Paradise once. At the time I had played over 32,000 hands. That was back in June and I have not received them since.
That's because you don't believe in them. It's just like santa and the easter bunny.
x
Give some verifiable data on this fly by night outfit, or acknowledge the facts. They are organized criminals that rip people off all over the world.
Someone on RGP said they met the owners and visited the operation in costa rica and it all looked very professional and legit. Do you know something he doesn't??
yeah, I have no information, other than open refusals by the company to acknowledge who they. They mentioned once an officer of their company. they have never acknowledged their ownership. Costa Rica permits incorporation without ownership acknowledgement.
Guess which one.
nt
/
.n/t
nt
Paradise owners are anonymous to protect themselves from liability involving their corrupt software. A civil rico case could be brought if we new who they were. 2+2 knows, but are in cahoots with them. They will not identify them. I call that racketeering. Sklansky and Malmuth = poker racketeers.
A great feature here would be an automatic addition to all subject lines that tell you how many characters are in the message.
Subject: I'm paranoid too!!! (5 chars)
would let me know that it's a complete waste to click on that message and can assume it says "n/t" or whatever.
I'm yet been losing in pp, but I have a sure news: Tne game is completely honest and well randomized. Stop with your posts, they have no any interest to keep a fix game. If you complain here is because you (as me) are losers and you can't accept tha fact in paradise (as in real games) there are a lot of very good players!!!!! Nobody complain about heads-up games, nobody complain about their very great bad beats (all we suffered them) in real casino or poker-rooms games. Stop and read the books, study the masters poker articles and then you can wait for a good game! I read one of the 3 better players in universe that in Vegas (MIrage) lost 8 times in a row with pocket A-A!!!!! IF that thing happened in paradise, how many posts in this forum!!!!!!! Believe me, obeserve the high-stake players (at higher limits) and then you note they fold with a lot of good hands such like a straight in 5th (7-stud) vs 3 suited card exposing. This is real good game! I was the first player to complain when I lost with quads of 3s vs quads of 8s (another site, nevertheless). Now It's the time of our awake! All very good analyzers here have studied the pp games and they noted NOTHING of abnormal. Be serious, real poker teach us to suffer real bad beats but on-line we always realize a collusion, a bias, or a conspirancy. I played poker 20 years long, I read Cardplayer, PokerEuropa, CardDigest, i HAVE A LOT OF FRIENDS WHO CONSTANTLY WIN AT PP. Never known there is a strange way to lead the things! Paradise poker, planet poker and others sites has the primary interest that the game goes well! It's the same thing you can note even in illegal bets (they have the first interest ALL THINGS GO WELL!) otherwise nobody play in this or that site and so they will no make a lot of money as they are doing (fees, deposits with interests, rakes, etc). Only a stupid club can set up a dishonest site only to see broking it in a few time!!!!! Now I'm looking for 1397 players in Paradise! Are all stupid people??? Marco
Finally a good post.I agree 100%.I have suffered just as many bad beats online as anyone else.In fact I have noticed little difference in the bad beats online than in live play.When I play bad I lose and I sure as hell dont blame it on the poker site.When I make the same bad decisions in live play I also lose,but I sure dont blame the dealer or the house.I am fortunate enough to recongnize when I am making bad decions so I either quit or play better.This has proven extremely sucessful for me and I no longer play live.The point of this is that I think too many players are looking for somebody other than themselves to blame when they lose.The losing players are not suffering more suckouts than anyone else ,they just put themselves in vulnerable positions,make terrible calls,and draw and make hands which are still second best etc.I have never heard the top notch players on paradise complain about any of these conspiracies.Winning players who post on this forum (who I have played with)angelina,gooch,mr president,skp,etc the list goes on)these players do not complain about any of these conspiracies?Why is that?They suffer just as many suckouts as the rest of us.I think all the skeptics just are looking for something to blame.Many of these people say they beat paradise but still feel that something is "not right".I say bullshit.And if I am wrong please post your paradise handle because I ,like many other players,keep an extensive log of the players and from playing everyday ,we will then be able to decide if you are a winning or solid player.And if you are ,then I will definatley listen to your points.After all if a winning player really thought there was something wrong and different from live play then maybe its something to look at.But the continous accusations from the skeptics on this site are hard to take seriously because of the source that they are coming from.
Do you work for paradise? There are some really good players who could not beat paradise and they have posted here many months ago. I personally broke even (at paradise) but must say that I never experienced so many tough beats in such a short period of time. I played 2,114 hours there and could not beat the game and my win rate is a little over 1 BB per hour over the last 4,200 hours and thats close to 3 years of live play for me. I also had a few friends who are very good players and at best they broke even like myself. I have heard both sides of the argument on this site and rgp and we are all entitiled to our opinions mine is that something isnt kosher.
No,I do not work for paradise.I play at planet and highlands as well.My name on paradise is Bob Loblaw.I have said all along that paradise games are tough to beat because they are loose and very aggressive.You see many people seeing flops and lots of raising.Therefore your bankroll fluctuations are big.If you can avoid going on tilt and keep your sanity ,the games are very beatable.I dont think your friends ,who you say beat the live games,play good enough online.Online play is easier to play bad than live play and it is harder to notice.I think if those players were really that good,they could step away and evaluate their games and discover that they may have alot of leaks.They may discover that they are playing too loose and may be calling a little too much.I think the hyper aggressiveness on paradise is somewhat contagious and after you hve a few extremely wild beats,you may start peeling that extra card off or play that QJ,KJ,or A10 upfront.When I first started paradise ,I also beat the live games.After 1 month playing paradise I was stuck 1800 plaing 3-6 and 5-10.At that point I too thought something wasnt right.But after carefully examining my play I discovered I was playing much too loose.(I think this was becuase the live game I played in was very loose and passive ,so I got away with it.)After improving my game online ,I have not looked back.A while back a reader on this forum named Maven posted a post simliar to this one and that is how I made my own realization of how weak my own play was.Anyway everyone is entitled to their opinion,but I am just sick of people costantly complaining on this forum.The majority of the post now are about card randomness,paradise in cahoots,letting first time players win,letting the fish last longer etc.This is all bullshit.If people want to believe this fine.Why go on and on with no facts to back up any of these allegations.All I said in my above post is that all the accusations come from non winning players and if proven winning players have the same opinions then it would definately open my eyes.Once again the paradise games are about as aggressive and loose as you could possibly get,and therefore due to this you will have some wild, wild beats and huge bankroll fluctuations.But the game is still beatable.The reason why people say they like planet and highlands better is that it is much more passive - which will bring not as many wild beats and less movement in your bankroll.I think if you can beat paradise games ,you can beat any game.
t
I am entitled to post my brief lil posts just as you are entitled to post your long rambling ones. If you don't like to hear anyone's opinion but your own, why are you reading the posts??
your right -sorry
Paradise is very probably square and the shuffling is just fine. Collusion is a problem, though, but beatable, I believe. Paradise should put a lot more effort into policing the games.
Angelina Fekali
I agree that collusion is a big problem paradise has to hire experts to overlook there games like planet has done. The reason I left paradise is because of collusion I think it is rampant and until they combat that problem I will not play there again. I read a post today at rgp where a player said he knew of a few players who tell each other there hole cards while playing at paradise. It is unfortunate that this occurs and if they only inform themselves of there hold cards and dont make deliberate raises it is hard to catch these theives. All of this makes me rethink playing online but I still do because I win.
what percent of the tables do you think people cheat? for 5/10? for10/20? for 3/6? thanks bitchass
i have never said the game is rigged or fixed. there is the matter of the way the hand is dealt. all cards including flop cards are dealt at once and are sitting waiting to be exposed as needed. there are hacker programs out there that can see these cards. not many people have these programs but they are there. you have been warned....if you have any doubts ask roy cooke
Yes, it could be a program to read my hidden cards, but it could be Bush or Gore votes are rigged, it could be that in casinos or card-rooms there are dealers colluded with some players, it could be (and this is a real fact) the back' cards are not the same for all the cards (try to experiment this-----take a deck cards and begin to look with a lot of attention the back of everyone card......NO ONE CARD HAS THE SAME DESIGN!!!! Try to look!). If we haven't trust of anything then we can go to the mountains and play heads-up with ourself. Marco
you won't. Just another lackey.
they have a lot to hide
Collusion IS something any serious poker player should be concerned about, online and live. The question is HOW MUCH? Before getting into theory and ideas, we should gather some facts.
Just how many people have been caught? Has anyone produced numbers on this? Does someone want to contact Planet Poker and find out straight from the source how many people have been remove for cheating? The same for Paradise. I would like to see the numbers. Paradise catches a lot of flack for not protecting it's players yet I have not seen any supporting evidence. On the other hand Planet gets a lot of credit, again no evidence. I am NOT implying any interpretation. Do not read into this post. Lets see the numbers first then discuss them.
I will say this. I have a tons of respect for Caro and Cooke. They have been my "teachers". I will be the first one to switch from Paradise to Planet, that is once they have comparable software and traffic. I don't know how much they do to stop collusion, but they personify integrity.
David Sklansky has posted again and again that Paradise needs to hire an expert to catch colluders. I think he really really wants that job. Hell, 10k a week, half a mil a year, who wouldn't? There is no doubt in my mind he is a poker expert. As co-founder of his own business, I think he must have good business smarts too.
For Paradise too justify hiring a consultant for 10k a week, they would have to be sure that individuals presence would generate at least that much, oherwise they would lose money. The players would be happier, but the bottom line is cash.
Is 10k a week lost to colluders? From lost businnes because of fear of collusion? Can DS presence generate 10k a week in new play at Paradise? I have no idea, I'm just throwing those questions out there, DS should have some answers.
One thing I'm fairly certain is that once Planet gets it's act together, Paradise is gonna lose a lot of players, so they need to hire Sklansky or some one with his reputaiton if they want to keep their business. 10k a week might seem cheap then.
Why are you so eager to switch to Planet Poker? If "they don't have their act together now" what makes you think that they will be better than Paradise in the future? Is it simply because Caro and Cooke are involved and that gives you some sense of legitimacy? Just curious, I'm not being critical.
First I want to get something off my chest. That usher in the lobby when you log on to Planet fell out of the ugly tree. He looks like a pig in a cheap Armani. He scares me. I also hate sitting down at the table and being the chick. Sorry if I offend.
Wtih that out of the way, here are your answers.
"Why are you so eager to switch to Planet Poker? "
I don't think I ever used the word eager, or implied it. I simply said that If they had similar games to Paradise I'd be the first to play there. Explanation to follow.
""they don't have their act together now" "
What I meant by this is faster gameplay and better software. In fact I think their graphics interface has to be completely revamped. Right now, Paradise is the benchmark. Just like Playstation and Nintendo are always putting out the "newest" system after each other, Planet needs to answer. Fortunately in this age, new tech comes around the corner every couple months, so Planet should be all over this by now. I'd be willing to bet they are. Planet if you are listening, and these ARE new concepts to you, you need help, call me, I graduate soon!
"what makes you think that they will be better than Paradise "
Call it a hunch, but I think that the Mad Genius will produce. Don't forget he has a long history with computers. I remeber checking his website out three years ago, it was very ambitous for that time in web design. I don't think it every really got off like he wanted it too though, for whatever reasons. This guy has some real creative insight and vision. I don't think there will be a let down. I could also be totally wrong.
"that gives you some sense of legitimacy"
I don't think there is anything illegitamate about poker. Not online or live. I would not say this at all. I'm not one of those people who belive there is criminal activity behind Paradise. I believe they are 99.999% legit. Why the small uncertainty? I just read a post by this guy Pablo.....
"Is it simply because Caro and Cooke are involved "
I respect both of them a lot. I have read hours of material by them. I like thier colaborative effort to standardize rules. The idea of a poker game run by poker experts does have a nice ring to it. I credit a portion of my game to them. If Planet and Paradise both offered me an "equal" choice between games, I'd go Planet just becuase of that.
"Just curious, I'm not being critical" Thanks for listening.
One thing to keep in mind is that something like 150,000 to 200,000 games a day are being played at Paradise. Even if half of those are for play money, you still need to be monitoring at least 75,000 hands.
I think the ONLY way to do it is automatically. It is totally unreasonable to expect someone (or a team of two or even 20 people) to sit there and look at hand histories and be able to judge with any certainty if there's collusion going on.
Anything that's obvious that would be caught by a human will certainly be caught by software, obvious things like raising with crap to protect a partner's hand or dropping a good hand when the partner has a better one. But anything beyond that possibly requires analyzing previous hands from those players as well. A proper collusion analysis would take an hour for just one report!!
As long their analysis software has been designed by pros it is probably better than having Mr. Expert sitting around waiting to do something.
I just noticed on the Paradise Poker website (not the program) they have a two page explanation of thier random number generator and shuffling algorithm. I don't know when it was added or if it was always there, but it is very informative. One person, I wish I could recall whom, somehwere below offered that PP games (or other online ones) may not "feel natural" because the shuffling is SO much BETTER than at home or casino! I like that idea. Go to their page and read their statements WITH AN OPEN MIND. Start at this site: http://www.paradisepoker.com/rng.html
This first paragraph, I found particularly interesting.
"This paper describes some of the issues of random number generation and how it relates to shuffling cards for multiplayer internet poker. We believe the public scrutiny of the algorithms used for generating random numbers and shuffling cards is the only way to ensure we have the best solutions in the industry. We continue to monitor newsgroups and cryptography mailing lists to ensure that our solutions remain the best. After reading about our methods, we're sure you'll agree."
They discussed their random number generation in some detail, and fielded a lot of questions on rgp prior to opening for business. But with deja's overhaul I doubt those posts would be available right now.
you aren't a very good puppet for Paradise. Ask Sklnsky what you have to o to get paid by them. He might feed you in on approved info to use.
I had it all arranged for PP to pay Gator 3K a week for his party line posts about them. But he screwed it up when he wrote about his suspicion about small biases in the random number generator. I did persuade them not to kill him however.
You've made a lot of people unhappy if PP ends us listening to you. I had them peruaded to shoot him and mail the bill for the bullet to his family.
Before you get all spastic, Gator...i am JUST kidding...i think...heh
Feeling guilty about hiding the identities of the Paradise Poker owners? Toughen up. If he doesn't comply, whack him.
3k, and I would have gotten away with if it weren't for those meddeling kids!!!!
I posted an article about 2 weeks ago documenting delays in payments from poker.com. I have received several e-mails asking me if I have received my payment. The answer is no not yet, but I have not given up as I have noticed an increase in the number of people online at the site suggesting that they are still in operation. I have however e-mailed them on 2 occasions and received e-mails back stating that they are sorry for the delay and the check will be sent shortly. If I ever receive my money I will be happy to post another message on this board to let players know that poker.com came good with the money, and that it is safe to play there.
D.R
I had the following situation come up the other day on a 2/4 holdem table at Paradise. I had just joined the game and posted a late position blind 1 off the button. I was dealt a miserable looking 42 offsuit, and it was not raised to me, so I naturally checked. The button raised and the action was called back to me. My question here is with 7 other players in the pot and no possibility of a reraise, how many of you would call the extra 2 dollars and see the flop? If you would make the call, what do you do if you get a piece of the flop (say you flop a pair)?
FOLD!!!!!
Didn't you like the correct answers the last time you posted this?
nt
In all probability, the hand that raised already has a higher pair than you, so, fold. He has as much chance improving his already better hand as you do, so you are always the underdog. You should not have called the 42 in the first place. Unless you raise him out of his seat - but that is hard to do in $2-$4. But then, it's all luck, isn't it? Mike Haven.
I firmly believe that more money, than you ever realized is lost by players that have posted blinds and get raised into calling with hands they never would have called a single bet with, if they hadn"t been in a blind. Yes, you will hit a big flop once in a blue moon and take down a nice pot, but the money you lost all those other times when you flopped nothing or caught a piece of the flop and pissed away a bunch of chips will never come close to that one pot you won. In this scenario that you were in, most poker players would simply call the two bucks. Most poker players are losing poker players. Do you really want to be like most poker players? You do the smart thing, the disciplined thing, the thing that most poker players don't have the strength to do and that is simply muck that piece of crap as quickly as possible and feel good about your decision.
You guys can lie to yourselves all day as far as I am concerned.
I've quit Paradise poker and will only be playing tournaments on Poker Spot.
Good Luck to all of you.
Would it be lying if I spent the 6k (all profit in the last 2 months) in my Paradise account?
you are a compulsive degenerate.
I've seen 10x (not an exaggeration) the Quads/hour in Pokerspot tourneys than I've seen at Paradise. Not only that but more straight flushes including my Royal.
I would even go to say that thier shuffling seems oddly similar to PP.
I think, excuse me, that a player who leaves a net site to run in another site is not coherent. Paradise is the most popular net poker site. Why? Are all we stupids? Masochists? I don't think. I have no a reasonable justification to believe a site is better than another site. History, they sayd and they say, is made by people and the most part of net poker players are in paradise. Repeat: Are we all colluders? Are we all fishes? "Ai posteri l'ardua sentenza"--Alessandro Manzoni Marco
No you are degenerate gamblers. How much people win at Paradise is easy to say hard to verify. Yes the site is good, active (many players) seems to me some get paid by the house, as other online places have just no-body to play. Isn't that suspicious by itself?
Hey Rounder,
I've quit too, read my long message above. Beware of pokerspot, when I tried to cash in, it was A LOT OF TROUBLE. I trust that site less than Paradise.
Mark
PS email me your email address, i'd like to talk.
In an earlier post I made the statement that you should study and save your hand histories. Send me your last 100 hands played and I'll prove that there are more holes in your game that a swiss cheese sandwich. I'll will admit right up front in that 100 hands you could have a terrible bad beat. One bad beat in 100 hands will not make or break a good poker players day. I'll make you a gentelmans bet...out of your last 100 hands, that you played more that 15 to 20, that you played cards out of position, that you called raises when you should have folded, that you stayed in when you were clearly beat. I beleive that if you study your own hand histories you will see you have BIG TIME LEAKS. The problem is no one will study there own game. They just remember one hand that would have put them even had they hit. They remember the hand they called when the pot odds dictated folding. They remember holding a K high flush and calling a raise with the A still out. Refresh your memory....LOOK AT YOUR HAND HISTORIES.
Please note that the website "The Professional" http://www.geocities.com/chrisj3wc/ appears to be a scam.
The software that can be downloaded does not work and delivers (at least) two trojans programs - NetBusPro and Orifice2K - which allow a hacker to access / gain control of your PC.
I just downloaded and scanned the file. It does indeed have the Back Orifice trojan. Norton Virus Scanner did not detect NetBus, however. What virus scanner did you use?
I am notifying geocities and the poker sites on which I play. I will also post this on rgp.
Anyone who has run this file on their machine MUST get rid of it. The person who put this on the web CAN see your hole cards. He can also COMPLETELY control your computer, just as if he were sitting at your keyboard.
This has been common knowledge for some time.Internet cheats, many that post here, have disavowed this as a resaonable argument. You are just another paranoid loser, per the Sklansky kiss asses. Your crying wolf to the leader of the pack.
No one that I know of has disavowed the possibility of hackers playing online poker, most people just assigned a low probability to it. Although most of the posts have been pure nonspecific paranoia, this is real, and it is happening right now. The probability that online poker players are being hacked (on their own computers, not on the servers) is now 100%.
While hacking into the servers or sniffing out information over the internet would require a true hacker, any 12 year old can use Back Orifice IF he can get it on YOUR computer (the program must be installed on YOUR computer). This guy has figured out how to do that. He offers you a nifty little program to help you out, and has YOU install it for him.
Last night I was in a game when one of the players said "wtf? I didn't fold" as his hand was folded. Certainly, I can't say for sure, but there is a very real chance that he had run "The Professional" and someone else had folded his hand for him.
As to my being a paranoid loser: paranoid - perhaps; loser - I have previously posted my actual results on Paradise Poker showing me winning 2 big bets per hour.
As to kissing Mr. Sklansy's ass: I would do more than that for the money he has enabled me to earn over the years. I'd kiss Stanford Wong's ass, too. And add a smooch for Mike Caro, Lawrence Revere, Bob Dancer, Oswald Jacoby, Paul Magriel, Arnold Snyder, Peter Griffin, and the ever lovable Mason Malmuth.
You have the right to remain silent. Please consider it.
It has always been 100%. Netbus is considered an admistration tool not a virus. Thought they did have to sue the virusscan developers to remove it from thier scan software.
There are a NUMBER of remote control programs that do the same thing. I run a firewall, nukenabber, and scan regularly for viruses.
All of these things are a must for online games.
Let alone playing poker for real money.
The post was meant in support of your position. The true flames will come from the Jodders, Gators, etc.... just wait.
how does one scan for viruses like this? how did you find this? i once had my hand folded and it was really strange... i think there is a chance that i downloaded thsi this thing onto a campus computer while playing at school once... can this possibly hurt me still if i use a dialup connection at home? also, there is no risk if i just go check it out to look at it right? how is this "program" advertised? how would one stumble across it? as for the firewalls, i use the free one at zone alarm... is this good enough? obviously (assuming its not just conspicuous consumption) there are better ones for which one could shell out money... I think a general discussion about security and precautions would be a GREAT thing for this forum given that there are so many concerns... Virus scanners, how you guys figured this "The Professional" thing out, firewalls, etc. Thanks for the heads-up...
TT
OK let me explain my position and the position of many others here, you seem to selectively read only portions of the posts, you also fail to understand the content.
I have never said: Hacking is not possible and isn't happening, cheating is not possible and isn't happening, collusion is not possible and isn't happening, Paradise is not corrupt, Paradise is not mob-owned.
The position I have always and consistantly taken can be summerised as. Many of the events that people here claim as evidence of cheating, corruption, etc. is quite often explainable.
I always do so in a polite non-adversarial manner. I also happen to believe that when people make damaging statements regarding other people and/or entities without any evidence that is moraly wrong. I also believe that when these statements are spread around as fact based on nothing more than rumour or intduendo it should not be tolerated.
I have included a post I made both to R.G.P. and this very forum three months ago that describes how someone could gain access to someones hole cards. If you read it you will see that I believe it is very possible.
I also doubt that posting a message such as this; is something that an online poker employee would do.
BTW I'll save you the trouble of replying to this post.
Jodder can't be trusted, he is nothing more than a corrupt, mafia influenced Paradise sock-puppet, if he wasn't he would identify his real-name, telephone number, social security number, IP address, NetBIOS name, phone number of nearest kin incase of emergency
Repost from approximately 3 months ago:
David:
I posted this resonse on R.G.P. and thought to repost here for comments from 2+2 readers
How would I obtain the ability to view David sklansky's (and others) hole cards while he was playing online poker.
Step 1. Start writing my trojan.
Step 2. Create a fake name and start posting on 2+2 and R.G.P. to create a well-known and trustable persona. This persona would be that of a skilled, always willing to help non-adversarial individual.
Step 3. Create a web page from one of the free sites with lots of interesting poker information and advice.
Step 4. After I had posted on 2+2 and R.G.P. I would ask people to check out my page, include links to other poker pages on my page and ask them to include a link to mine.
Step 5. I would create a neat poker utility that had appeal to on-line poker players. I.E. a program that analyzed the results of a players hands from the paradise or planet hand request files and printed charts of the EV of their various starting hands.
Step 6. When the program is complete I would post it on my now "established" web page and I would post a few messages on 2+2 and R.G.P. with my "recognizable persona", informing them of my new poker program that they could download freely and use.
Step 7. I would log the IP address of everyone who downloaded my utility.
This Utility would contain a trojan. Once this program was run once it would update the Windows Registry to run the trojan code every time the machine was started. The features of the trojan code includes:
1) Ability to take screen snapshots of bitmaps and communicate them over the Net. This code doesn't even need to be written it is available in NETBUS and Back Orifice and similar clones, the source is available.
2) Use a well-known TCP port IE port http, telnet, ftp for communication. This would reduce the odds of an outbound packet on the target's machine setting off the firewall (though they probably don't have one installed anyway).
3) I could then communicate with any machines running my trojan whenever they were on the net and request from them screen shots. I have a list of probable IP addresses that I could "scan" or have a program read my IP list and scan to determine if any of my targets are on-line.
4) Advanced feature from version 2.0 When the targets runs the paradise or planets client I could even ICQ myself. This information is readily available in the process table. The code to send ICQ messages is also readily available.
Step 8. When I find a target on-line I request a screen shot, the screen shot will tell me what table he is on and his username.
Step 9. I would then get into a waiting list for that table. At the beginning of every hand request a screen shot showing his hole cards.
Added bonus. If the original trojan was very appealing to on-line poker players you might even find a table with a few targets.
Other considerations:
This technique would be technically invisible to paradise or planet as the communication between my machine and the targets would not go near their network. Though it is possible that my play might be confused with that of a colluder as it would appear that I was always playing with the same people and betting, raising and folding contrary to what I might normally do if I didn't know their hole cards.
There are countless other techniques, countermeasures and program features that I would employ and not listed above, because I just saw David's post and started typing.
I also spend my time pursuing the bad guys and prefer not to help them.
Jodder
Terry:
McAfee and F-Prot will detect Netbus (assumming your signature files are relatively up to date.)
Others:
Technically, netbus is not a virus at all but a trojan. Trojans are programs that potentially do something destructive under the guise of doing something desirable.
Netbus, Back Oriface and others run on your machine, they listen over to certain pre-defined internet ports for a client to connect to them.
Once a client attachs to the netbus server, (your machine) the person can remotely control your machine including collecting passwords, view the screen, etc.
Protection against obtaining Bus and Oriface are:
1) Be aware of programs and the sources where the program game from.
2) Run a virus scanner, Mcafee will detect Bus and Oriface.
3) Run a personal firewall. Personal firewall's will not prevent you from getting Netbus, However it will alert you and prevent Bus from connecting to any clients.
Thank you for this important message. However, I wonder how these scam artists get people to download their programs. Are we safe if we don't download such programs? My friend told me that it is very complicated to install a firewall because you have to specify what data to accept. In other words, if you don't do it correctly, you may not be able to communicate with the Paradise program. Can you show us how to set up a firewall such as ZoneAlarm step-by-step? How do we download the ZoneAlarm program. Thank you very much. BK
Read the post titled "BEWARE".
If you have been infected, Back Orifice is not really very easy to eliminate. See the following link. If you discover that you are infected (if you have downloaded and run the program "The Professional", you ARE infected, even though the program did not appear to work) you may want to ask your local computer guru for some help if you can't get rid of it yourself... and you MUST get rid of it.
Back Orifice gives the user complete control of your computer, just as if he is sitting at your keyboard. He can not only see your hole cards, he can fold (or raise) your hand. He can shut down your computer, he can even format your hard drive.
http://www.helpdesk.umd.edu/pc/util/virus/backorifice.shtml
Yes, I have the hand #s. I'm busy right now with the Back Orifice thing. I may or may not respond to you later.
i play at paradise and highlands online. i started out as a typical fish playing an any two cards can win policy with a fair amount of ill-advised bluffs thrown in. i won a lot and lost a lot at everywhere from the 50-1.00 to (briefly) even the 20-40 table, until they realised i was a complete jackass and took all the money back..
then i decided it was time to actually spend some time trying to get good at the game and make it a profitable thing. i read two beginner low limit hold em books through three times and have now read hpfap 21st at least three times and i read from it daily like a bible. i play every day, usually 5-8 hours a day and i mainly play the 3-6 tables, but sometimes the 5-10 and 2-4. i am not a dumb person. i did well at college level calculus and i have an MA in a discipline dependent on analytical/theoretical thinking. i understand the math and i consider my outs carefully and quickly.
i am getting very frustrated. i cant seem to consistently win even though i am playing "winning poker". my bluffs, straight out of the book, are almost always called by turkeys with nothing. i get three bet by people with 66 who crack my aces on the river. just today in a 3-6 game i raise in late position with JTs and one caller before and am cold called by the guy next to me with T5s. he plays his pair of fives to the river without a draw, coldcalling another raise on the turn. i was on a flush draw and we both get a river ten giving him two pair. i lose. this guy has $1300 in front of him. i have $200 and going down.
this is the rule NOT the exception. i am not simply remembering the bad beats more because they hurt worse. i understand that logic and that is not the case. i do NOT go on tilt. if anything i go on anti-tilt and tighten up even more when i am losing. i play very tight preflop per sklansky's groupings and i feel i play sensibly but aggresively post flop. i do not overprotect my blinds, but im not afraid to see the flop for half a bet either. i understand that there are ups and downs and bad beats in poker, but i am consistently losing. i dont play with scared money, i have been gambling semi-professionally for years now (up over $10K counting at low stakes blackjack, sportsbetting odd things like tennis and golf) so i understand money management and i dont play with scared money.
i have come to two key questions at this point: --should i save my bankroll up and move up to higher limits? will my raises and tight playing get more respect there? people seem so willing to chase at 3-6 tables. when i watch the higher limits i see much less in the way of unreasonable draws taking down pots. --or should i loosen up considerably and see about two or three times the number of flops i see now and stick with the lower limits? a loose aggressive approach, understanding of course that the fluctuations in bankroll will increase...
i really need some help from experts here. please dont reply unless you are a winning player.
At the risk of sounding like your English 101 teach, be more specific.
With the JTs hand, what was the position of the early limper? What sort of hands did he play from that position? Did you know that the cold caller was playing any two suited cards? Was the cold caller playing every hand, regardless the action? What was the flop? The board? What made you think a pair of 10s was enough to raise with on the river?
Paradise low limit is very high variance, even if you play well. I have had huge swings in both directions. Your example hints that you may have some leaks that will contribute to your troubles. The way to beat the wacky, loose players is to not get cute and to pound them with the best of it.
Why would you raise with JTs after one caller with players to act after you? That's not horrible, but it's speculative. Then you bet and/or raised with no pair and a flush draw. Again, you are pushing in chips on spec. Wait until you have the goods and then make them pay through the nose. Hang in there.
I understand your frustration. Its easy to learn everything in the book(s), however its very difficult to apply that knowledge in a real game. I am guessing the guy with $1300 1)thought you were on a steal. 2) had seen you raise/call with suspect hands before. 3)was a better player and could out play you after the flop. 4)was plain stupid and gets lucky alot. As far as your AAs getting cracked...join the club. Any fish with a pair can take the pot when they flop a set. Pocket pairs are buzz saws hidden in the bush just waiting to take your head off. How many times have I held AK, flopped 2 pair and lost to a small set...It happens. Its not even a bad beat in my book. Here's my advise. Stay at the lower limits until you can increase your bankroll. Be patient. Carefully choose your table. Look for fish. If you get on a table with one or more sharks, quickly move on. Set loss limits. Remember:Folding is the most profitable move you can make. Good Luck
Sounds like you are playing extremely high variance poker. Which unless you have a huge bankroll, it is suicide online.
HPFAP page 159 "Frequently keep it to a single bet before the flop more than most think because you gain a lot when bad players make incorrect calls on the flop and beyond, as long as the pot is kept small."
Don't make thier calling with trash correct play.
Now Abdul has an exception with this. Which is you should raise IF the fish are extremely loose-passive. I add to this "ONLY IF YOUR BANKROLL CAN WITHSTAND THE VARIANCE."
I would NEVER raise with JTs online. It may be positive EV but when the blinds always call, along with any moron who is also suited, your only chance is to make a flush and hope the early limper didn't limp with K3s. Now when you make your flush you make money, and if you had raised you would have made more money, but can your bankroll sustain the losses all those other times you raised an missed? Mine can't.
Same goes for pocket pairs, raising with pocket pairs IS positive EV. I never do it unless I truly think I can get heads up. If you can't get headsup, you best have made a set because a pair is worthless against 5 opponents.
I finally became profitable when I reduced my variance to the point I was only winning enough to cover my blinds over a large number of hours. I then started adding hands that HPFAP suggests like A5s, K9s, Q8s, etc.
dfds I feel your pain, but I may know the root of your problem. If you are playing by the guidelines in HPFAP you are NOT playing right in the Paradise 3/6 game. I have spent some time watching those games. They are the LOOSEST games you will find period. You will win more by tightening up considerabley
For instance, you should almost NEVER bluff in that game. There is no need too. Most of the players at your table don't keep their eyes glued to the screen, they don't pay attention. They have no idea how many hands you played. In real life those players may have a clue that you are playing tight, they can see your face, and there a less distractions. In PP they don't. Trust me. It stoped amazing me a long time ago that when I raise in early position with the first hand I've played in 20 mins (eons in Paradise time). I still get 5 or 6 callers. They don't care man, the fish play what they want, when they want, with disregard to any other factors. And if they even get a small piece of a dangerous board, forget about it. The fish sleep well at night knowing that no one steals a pot from them, NO ONE!
Raising with JTs in late position is a weak play in a loose game. Theres a good chance that A K Q fall and then you are doomed. Someone is playing it, and if the flop is small and you hit the J, some one will hold the overcards to burn you on the river.
In loose games you want to see the flop cheaply. Then you want to bail if you don't nail it. You don't stick around with bottom pair and one overcard.
I implore you get and study "Winning Low Limit Hold-em " by Lee Jones. Just do it. You will thank me later.
Hi,guys! I 've been reading your responses and I just amezed! Are you playing on some other planet? Your advises and considerations are show very good and deep understanding of a low-limit games.And I would like to read it for hours. But, I can see, there is no any mentioning or records about bigger problem than just weak play, or wrong play, or tight play, or loose play.The problem of two-three bastards playng in same room or constantly communicating with each other!! Don't you,guys,ever noticed it?? And how you going to beat them ?? By Abdul, or Sklansky, or Bronson ?? I, just,day ago,wiped my hard drive out of Paradise.com, after beeng continiuosly beaten with pocket AA and three times KK by two players ,one holding rags connectors and other- high overcards. The idea is simple: one going to draw to staigt, the other- to high pair. After typing in " Stop tolking to each other!!",they moved to another table on the very hnext hand. How about strategy and theory against such a "game" ?? Can I hear a word about this situation? Or it is only my sick imagination?? Please, help!!
there's an old joke about the fish telling a 'bad-beat' story. he begins "I had J10 suited..."
I didn't begin to consistently beat low-limit games until I read and understood Abdul's pre-flop strategies for low-limit HE. DO NOT move up until you can slaughter low-limit. spitball
The problem I have experienced in low-limit is the fact that one simply cannot use all the tools available to an experienced, knowledgable player. When I refer to "tools", I am including such tactics as semi-bluffing, bluffing, raising in late position on a flush or straight draw in order to take control of the pot, possibly getting a "so called" free card. Big pairs get cracked quite often when so many players see the flop. In no foldem holdem, look to flop the nuts or be drawing to the nuts. If not, release your hand and wait patiently for your next opportunity. The beautiful thing about this type of game is that you only have to win a couple, three monster pots to show a nice profit. Slow-playing a monster in early position, with a bunch of loose losers firing chips into the pot, can be a satisfying experience. Remember what Mike Caro says, "If they can"t defend themselves, you're in the right game".
agreed, in a nofoldem game, many 'plays' are of no use. have yet to play in a nofoldem game @Paradise low-limit. spitball
You may be unique in that you began your poker game online rather than at real live games with flesh and blood players. You might want to consider trying real games for awhile. Poker contains many subtleties which are trivial individually but are essential enmass. You can't win by mastering only the most important or most written about aspects of the game.
I just wonder if these subtle aspects can be detected and sorted out against a graphic screen. There are so many clues available in the demeanor of your opponent.
Someone once said you can't be a winner at poker by only having the best hand. When I first read this it demoralized me and then I came to understand that it was a magic key.
You might review (from archives I guess) some of the many threads on 'How to beat loose, low limit games'. There was a period here about a year ago where this topic was hammered over and over again and the various replies were very enlightening - thought you'll have to sort through a lot of chaff.
I had a bad session last night. Please disregard my post from above.
I believe I know a lot about this, I have played at all levels on Paradise, studied the card distributions, studied some specific cases where I have believed that collusion exists, etc. and I have read many of the messages, like Ed Hill's interesting message, and I have corresponded with a number of very smart people who play online. My play is slightly better than break-even but I must play very carefully and choose games carefully too: But my live play is much much more profitable per hour.
Here is what I think:
1. These games play way higher than their nominal values, due to good/great players, speed, and the fact that fish cannot buy in forever due to limits imposed by Paradise. So the 5-10 online is more like a 15-30 offline, both in rake amounts, toughness of players, etc.
In fact the rake amount per hour at 5-10 is just like a real 15-30 game; if you can win at the 5-10, great, but if you are break even -- tough to do -- against these players, you are sure paying a lot of rake...$1500 per month more or less.
2. High level games are populated by really good/great players. I have seen WSOP winners there. People who you simply would not sit down against in real life. While 20-40 rake is nice for a 20-40 game of such speed, the players will mostly stomp you.
3. Low level games are easier, 2-4 actually has a nice rake level (much lower than 3-6 or 5-10, which almost always get the full $3), but there are still many good players at 2-4 and 3-6. Many 2-4's play harder than many 5-10 or 6-12 games I've seen live...plus three other factors:
a. You cannot see the players and players change a lot: No one talks about this, which has bothered me a lot, but I know that I am very visual, and not seeing the players hurts my game. I think it hurts good players' games more than bad players who pay no attention. (I remember playing one year at a 10-20 in LV, many turkeys there, I got stomped on one hand, raised the next, I had AA; one very good player said to me, "are you tilting?". I showed him the AA, right across the table. Anyone could see it. No one even looked. 3 people called my set of aces to the river) And having people change so much online makes it hard when you do get an idea of how someone plays but next time you look they are gone.
b. Low level players playing anything and suckouts happen everywhere, but collusion is something I know I have seen. It happens more, I think, at lower levels, at least from my notes on this, but I am sure it happens. I think that policing of it better and drastic measures against it -- like confiscation of the $$ -- would help to stop it: And this needs to be done publically. But even if Paradise did this, crooks abound. They would come back, because easy collusion tricks can make a lot.
c. Hacking probably hasn't happened, although some obvious morons claimed otherwise...but I know people who could hack any site: They are paid by the govt and large companies [big bucks] to hack their sites to help make them hackproof. They have never failed. This isn't worth their while, they earn much more doing their consulting projects than they would sitting at the table, but consider that Microsoft was hacked, and the RNC was hacked, and Amazon or Ebay (i forget which) were hacked. Also, note the warning on this site about the trojan horse download which would let the hacker control (and look at) the screen of the downloader and their hole cards.
Caveat emptor: I don't play at Paradise anymore. When the obvious colluders beat me out of a 22 bb pot and Paradise yawned, I yawned too -- Right out of their game.
Mark
I appreciate your post very much. They are always well written and make good points. I'd like to learn more about your collusion experiences. I've felt funny about a particular game or two, but never could put my finger on one pot that I lost to collusion. Do you have some hand histories you would allow me to see? Feel free to erase your screen name and the hand numbers. I've been taking an active role looking at some players hands and trying to explain / understand cause and effect. Thanks!!!
Joe,
Thank you for the nice comment. One thing I did not say about the Paradise game, which is about the only thing I appreciate a lot: Between 2+2 and Paradise, my game is much much stronger than it ever was. This is good.
Here is one I posted before, it has happened to me in similar forms enough that I think there is a lot of collusion, I will give 2-3 variants, all have happened, I have others too, but this is the most common:
I get JJ (or QQ or AJs). I raise in late position. 4-5 callers (we are talking 2-4 thru 5-10). Flop comes JT5 (or QJ4). I have a set (or top two pair). Early player bets, 2-3 callers, I raise. 4-5 total take the turn (bells go off now). Turn is a 4 -- so the board is JT54 unsuited (or two of one suit) or similar. 4 people see my bet. River is a 3. Winner has 76o. All others have folded but me. My set or top two lose.
This happens too much. Colluders are playing badly if I have a set; but if I play like many bad players and might have J5o, or J9, then I will get hosed and deserve it and they will be making a lot by colluding. That's why I posted in another message that I have seen less of what looks like collusion at higher stakes.
Mark
in your example are all 4 of the players colluding against you? or just two? or what?
if it's all 4 then they are having to invest a lot of money to win a little, and it's still a big risk. if you have a set (or something better) then they are risking a lot and they are likely drawing dead.
so, in short, without some more evidence/argument, i dont buy it.
look at it from the 76o's pov: it's not unreasonable that a bad player (or even mediocre) would play 76o and bet 3. then you raise, he says what the hell, 3 more. now he's got 6 in and he's regretting that. then the flop comes and he figures with all those callers 3 more would be reasonable to see if he can get something going with such a big pot. then you raise and he figures well, better call again since everyone else has, the odds are not super far off from being worth a shot he figures. this player loves the turn, he has an open ended straight draw now. of course he's going to check and call 6 more to see if he can take down the huge pot. on the river he lucks out. suck out! this is not an out of the ordinary low limit hand. this is not evidence of collusion. he may also have put you on AK which is fair to do with low limit raisers and if he didnt check raise or reraise you on the river then we know he's a fish and not a savvy colluder.
Mark, IMHO I don't see this as a collusion hand. There was nothing that one player could tell another to help his buddy in this particular situation. Collusion would be more like: a colluder on your left has QQ you hold JJ the flop comes QJX the colluder on your right bets with nothing so that after you call or raise colluder on your left can raise or reraise. What colluders try to do is maximize proffits when they have the nuts, or drive you out when they don't. You get stuck in the middle hung out to dry with a very good 2nd best hand. Knowing your colluder buddies mucked card(s) he/you may need for a flush or straight won't help much. It would take an expert player to be able to recalulate the correct odds to make that sort of collusion proffitable. The situation you describe reminds me of gang play. One person against 9. If you see the flop everyone see's the flop. The players who catch the smallest part of the flop stay to the end. More often than not one of them will come up with the goods. They don't know what cards each other has, but the odds of you beating all 9 are nill. I look forward to reading your post and hearing from you again soon.
To both sa and Joe:
I cannot explain someone seeing all these bets with 76o or similar unless 2 to 3 of them were playing togther, one had top pair or two pair, two had str8 or flush draws, and between em they have me at the 95% level. This happens so much there, that it is either that, or it is hackers, or it is terrible players winning. I do not believe that the terrible players win. Also I do not know how many in each case are colluders. One of the worst players I saw there there kept winning and winning with 1 in 37 shots like this player; he played a lot with the exact same people, he always went to the river 3 to 4 handed, and I watched (thank god) and not played to see him bust person after person. This happens too much to suit me...
And I am not even discussing the obvious raise-reraise when I have the second nuts and the player with the nuts raises and his bud reraises: This is less aggravating and harder to detect while playing; but easier for Paradise, if they wanted to, but I think they do not. But a trivial homebrew chat or a phone (so they cannot detect you talking) or a person with two machines on diff. ISPs worries me worries me worries me....
Ignorance is bliss; but while Rounder complains about quads, I complain about 2-5, 3-6 and 5-10 players making miracle draws too frequently. I took notes of this during my play and it is not 6 outers I complain about, it is 1 outers on the river or runner runner miracles. My notes say that this happened way too much....
Mark
I think I've stumbled onto something interesting in this thread.
First of all, to the original poster: Let me pick on your JTs hand. You seem very hazy on the details. First you had a flush draw, then you had a straight draw, then the guy in front of you folded on the flop, the guy behind called a raise on the river. A check raise? A reraise? And you only had a pair of tens?
The story doesn't work, and this seems to be very common with posts by people like yourself who are earnestly trying to learn to play well. My interpretation of it is: You were not focused enough on the action to remember the details clearly. Professional players can still talk in great detail about hands they played many years ago. No, not every hand they've ever played, but when they do talk about a hand which got their attention, they know the details.
Your post also shows quite a bit of emotionalism over the hand even long after it was over. Are you sure you didn't go on tilt? Are you sure you're paying enough attention? Do you know everything in the books, or do you still learn at least half a dozen new things every time you read one?
To the more experienced players: What would you think if you were playing at Paradise and saw someone bet and raise all the way with JT and check raise or make it three bets on the river when he paired the ten?
Here is a person who sincerely believes, through inexperience and not having a full understanding of the difficult concepts in some pretty intense books, that that is the correct way to play the hand. Could this be the source of a lot of the weird plays on Paradise? Paradise is fast, slick & flashy, aimed at the mass market. There simply aren't 45,000 good poker players around. Planet is slow, clunky, unpretty, and marketed toward people who will be influenced by the names of Mike Caro and Roy Cooke.
Is it possible that a large number of the insane plays that get your attention on Paradise are the result of such misunderstandings and inexperience? One of the great turning points in my play was when a guy at the table said "You sure played that K4 for all it was worth" and I just knew/felt that it wasn't a sincere compliment even though he was always telling me how well I played. I went home that night and dug back into HFAP and discovered that it didn't really say "Any hand is worth a raise in late position." And to this day, every time I read that damn book, it says something it didn't say before.
I still think, (sorry I'm boring you!) the low-limit hold'em is a game of an incredible high variance as there are many beginners, as the low limits increase the gamblers pulsion that lives in everyone of us, as for others many reasons you well know. Another comment: the large part of answerers don't agree with MarK K (one of the most interesting forum partecipant) and me too. When someone is in tilt begins to enter (and continue the game after the flop) with a mimimum reason to play: 2-3, 7-2suited, or that 6-7 you described above. 4 or 5 players like these (who contemporarly enter the hand)will crash your premium hand (surely in the long run you will win but for the moment...money take another direction!). Marco
How to get a free bankroll on Paradise Poker
Have you been thinking about trying online poker? Are you afraid to give out your credit card number over the Internet? This is a way that you can get $50.00 or more free in a debit MasterCard account to use as a buy-in on Paradise Poker or any of the other poker sites.
There is an online incentive program called Beenz. The Beenz web site can be found here:
http://www.beenz.com
They offer you incentives to visit web sites and sign up for different Internet newsletters...etc. Most of the things you sign up for are totally free. You get a small amount of money (Beenz) each time you visit a web site or sign up for a program. There are also web sites that will pay you in beenz for visiting each day. Right now, there are about 100 Beenz that you can collect each day. Each ‘been’ that you collect is worth ½ cent.
The really cool thing is that after you collect 1100 Beenz, you can open a ‘rewardz’ card account and transfer the Beenz you collected into i
How to get a free bankroll on Paradise Poker
Have you been thinking about trying online poker? Are you afraid to give out your credit card number over the Internet? This is a way that you can get $50.00 or more free in a debit MasterCard account to use as a buy-in on Paradise Poker or any of the other poker sites.
There is an online incentive program called Beenz. The Beenz web site can be found here:
http://www.beenz.com
They offer you incentives to visit web sites and sign up for different Internet newsletters...etc. Most of the things you sign up for are totally free. You get a small amount of money (Beenz) each time you visit a web site or sign up for a program. There are also web sites that will pay you in beenz for visiting each day. Right now, there are about 100 Beenz that you can collect each day. Each ‘been’ that you collect is worth ½ cent.
The really cool thing is that after you collect 1100 Beenz, you can open a ‘rewardz’ card account and transfer the Beenz you collected into it. Then you can spend them with the card, the card functions just like a regular MasterCard debit card. You can use it to buy anything that you would normally buy with a credit card. Beenz.com doesn’t require any personal information other than your name and DOB for you to get the card.
It will take you a bit of time each day to collect the available beenz on the Internet. Below are a couple of web sites that will speed up your collection of Beenz.
First go visit www.beenz.com and sign up.
Then visit this web site daily: http://www.geocities.com/sherylt_1972/beenz.html
The lady who runs the site above updates it each and every day with all of the available daily Beenz so you don’t have to hunt for them.
Visit this next web site to get a list of all of the free one-time sign up offers.
http://www.beenzboard.com/
You should be able to get 3000-4000 Beenz if you sign up for everything. I would suggest you get a 2nd free email account such as hotmail to use in signing up for this stuff.. Most of these companies will send you tons of junk e-mail that you might not want in your regular e-mail account.
Click on Complete beenz list for the list of one-time offers. You will also find offers on the main beenz web-site and in your e-mail from time to time.
That’s all there is to it! You will be surprised how fast the beenz accumulate in your account. Once you get to 10K beenz, just transfer them over to your rewardz card and you will have your buy in for Paradise!
Below is another rewards program kinda like beenz. It will allow you to get a free roundtrip air voucher just for clicking. It will take you about a years worth of clickin every day to get your ticket. but hey! its free!
http://freetickets.terrashare.com
These are both legitimate companies that have been around for quite some time. This is no scam or anything, just a really cool deal!
If you want to experience the ultimate in internet freebies. Use the one site to get a free R/T ticket to Las Vegas and then save beenz up for 1 year and use your rewardz card for expenses while you are there.
Get alot of beenz by:
Applying for the discover card: 250b Getting approved for the card: 1000b
Using the card at Barnes and Noble to buy some poker books: 1500b + 14b for every $1 spent.
HI
any news on POKER:COM CASHOUTS
IS IT SAFE???
not safe been waiting for a check for ages, losing patients, refer to my earlier post for information/
I am a loser i have lost 170 dollar. But i am a winner i play good but i lose and then you goo panic. And playing nearly every hand. I am 17 years old and must say that i love the Kokain game Poker. I whant to get some new intrest but i cant. I have bought in on paradise 3 times 50 50 60 IT s not fun. I think that the Online casinos is not good it s to easy to loose money on. And you doing well and then you loose =( it s sad.
What to do ?? Trying to not gamble again
/ from a player without life
Hey jss,
You might want to check out some of the books on this site. You also might want to check out Hold'em Excellence by Lou Kriger and Winning Low Limit Hold'em by Lee Jones. Both books are excellent. Don't play over your head. With that small of buy in, you should stick to playing .50/1.00 and Play EXACTLY the way the book says. You will find that because at that limit, many players go to far with hands, you will grind out a nice small profit. YOU ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE A TON OF MONEY REAL FAST. You will just see your bankroll increase slowly but surely.. You will have periods of time where you won't get a starting hand for a long time..then you will get one and the flop will miss you completely. FORGETABOUTIT! Throw that hand away and wait for one that is GOLDEN! Don't despair..just continue playing solid good sound poker the way the books say. The good hands will come. I will say that one more time..when you are sitting there thinking about playing that Ace-Little THROW THAT TRASH AWAY. You have to still be sitting there with money when the REAL hands come. You will see players playing all kinds of crap and winning.. Don't let that trick you into playing like them. Don't let the blinds trap you into playing a hand you wouldn't otherwise play.
Just keep saying to yourself..slow and steady. You WILL win. Use the time while you are waiting for a hand to take notes on what the players show down...to think about the way they played a hand or you played a hand...etc. Poker is a game of patience. If you sit there and play for 4 hours and loose $10.00 from the blinds and seeing flops and never win a hand, don't let it bother you. Your time WILL come. Try not to think of each session as a winning or losing session..Just remember, it is all one long session. Most importantly, PLAY YOUR POSITION. If you don't understand position yet..read the books until you DO. I repeat..IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND POSITION, READ THE BOOKS UNTIL YOU DO.
After you have built up your Bankroll a little, move up to the next limit...make more money..repeat.
After you play PURE SOLID POKER for a while, you will get a feel for it. You WILL make a small profit playing this way so it will build your confidence. You will KNOW when your hand is the best. You will be able to expand a bit and throw an occasional bluff into the mix every now and then. When your bluff's don't work you will be able to release the hand and wait for the next opportunity.
Just think to yourself..SLOW STEADY PATIENT..SLOW STEADY PATIENT..SOLID!
I want to add one final thing. This is not always correct..but.. always think this in a game. IF you are thinking about CALLING a player. ALWAYS let this thought cross your mind...
Here it is..
"Wouldn't it be better to raise or fold?"
You DO NOT win in poker by calling.
Take care and best of luck to you.
Good previous post.
One bit of advice to add about paradise that helps me a ton. Use the "in-turn" buttons to throw away trash hands (e.g, A8o two off the button) so you don't get tempted when there are several callers ahead of you.
I don't think a 17 y.o. can evaluate the game, either in internet or in live games. You have to spend a lot of time to study books and, especially to play live games. In my modest opinion the best advice I can get give you is to read all articles on CardPlayer, PokerEuropa, etc and experiment at your home the difference (in the long run) about playing A-K suited (for example) and A-8 off then you will make a good idea of what is playing premium hands and trash hands. Good luck, poker needs young players!! Marco
"I don't think a 17 y.o. can evaluate the game, either in internet or in live games"
Gabriel Schwartzman won the International Grandmaster of Chess title at 17 years old. (I just happen to know this because he lives here in G'ville and is in the news a lot). About at half dozen others have won the coveted title at such a young age. Which do you think is a tougher game to master?
Which game involves more strategy, insight, planning, judging opponents, patience and intuition? I hope you said Chess. That's a simple fact.
I'm sure that given the right motivation and training, minds like that can easily take our money across the felt!!
I do not doubt that a 17 year old can master poker, it is unlikely given legal gambling ages and all, but Marco I hope that when you sit across the table from some fresh faced 19 year old, you do not automatically judge the book by it's cover. He may well surpass you in strategy and skill. Experience will not overcome that, unless experience tells you to get up and leave!
I'm not picking on you, I think your posts are pretty good most of the time. Just something to think about.
nt
Chess is a math game, pure and simple. Many 17 year olds could recognize the nuts and calculate pot odds as fast as any WSOP champ. Doesn't mean they have the life knowledge to read players and body language. I think the skills required for the two games are vastly disparate.
David Ottosen FIDE: 2100 Poker: Still trying to recognize the fish at the table
Thanks Gator, I have the same feeling about your posts and answers. BUt now please consider this: At 17 y. o. a guy (or a girl) don't have a full recognition of the money!!Money is the fuel of poker: no money no poker!---(Roy WEst). And when in theory you don't lose anything but you only can earn something (Like CHESS GAME) posts the problem in an another direction. IN fact the full individual rights of a fellow start at the age of 18, in gambling 21 in your country: that is a guy has a complete indipendence (theoric or really we don't care) in money administration, penal pendencies, etc. Is it the same thing losing a chess match by a bad move than losing several bucks (even in the low stakes happens...) due to a fear control of the game because the money power in poker is enormous? Marco
"due to a fear control of the game because the money power in poker is enormous? "
Marco, I think it is a seriuos error in judgement to beleive that a young person can not know and respect the value of a dollar as well as a middle aged adult.
I have had friends in high school that worked crappy fast food jobs to help support their single mom and brothers and sisters. The value of a dollar is not learned with age, but by neccesity and experience. And I know teenagers that have more respect for a dollar than the fogies slipping Benjamins into the slots.
Think, how old was Phil Hellmuth, Huck Seed when they won the WSOP. How old is Daniel Negreanu?
Winning play in poker seperates the idea that a bet actually involves cash money. It is simply a raise, call, or fold based on solid proven gameplay.
"Never count your money when your sitting at the table, the'll be time enough for counting when the dealing is through"
You sound like I post I made when I started playing paradise..."Maybe if I go up the game will be easier." I think I even posted something like "I have read Jones, Kreiger, Caro, Skalansky. etc."
Reading doesn't necessarily make you a good player.
I reviewed my game and was amazed to find the holes that existed.
Review your hand history. Also, are you spending the time to analyze your opponents (very hard to do on PP with T.V., wife, porn, etc.)?
5-10 on PP is damn hard (and not becuase of guys playing 10-4 out of position). 2-4 on PP is very easy and I have beat it consistently over several hundred hours of play.
Note, I play tighter than what any of these guys recommend. I probably play closer to Ken Warren's strategy.
Given an enormous quantity of answers I cant resist to give my opinion: LEAVE LOW LIMIT HOLD'EM! IT's a bingo game! Why? 1- When you patiently wait for A-A, K-K or Q-Q (the most profitable hands) you have at least 4-5 callers. Do u know how are you probabilities to win the hand with pocket high pair against 5-6 callers? Read every book, you'll find the answer. 2- Hold'em low limit it's an UNBLUFFABLE GAME! That is you can't use the more interesting poker arm! You can tell me slowplays, check-raise or raise for getting a freecard, but the reality is this: without bluff poker is a flat game (In fact all good players consider hold'em no-limit the cadillac of the game, where bluffing is very very important). 3- Nobody will respect you if you bet with A-K in a flop of A-3-5. If someone has the 4 or the 2 will call you all his life! (And as there are many players in a pot one of them will finish to fill up his straight). Backdoor flush or backdoor straight are at the order day! 4- Variance: Super high variance is the daily bread of low limit HE, it's demonstrated that even if you play a solid game you can be a loser for a period of 3-4 months. Figure a new player who wait, wait, wait a premium hand and then is still losing. 5- Try to play 7-stud where bluff is by far more used and you have 3 hidden cards instead of 2 and every player has an individual board. Never heard, I repeate never heard, a good player at 7-stud low limit is a loser for more than 1-2 month. Try to play stud, read minimum Roy West book and then you will gain a lot of money. Marco
My E-mail is there, my name is my real name, my thoughts are really my thoughts, I don't work for Paradise, I only use a little part of brain to learn that all these conspirancies are set up only by lose players
Do they pay out on time and do they pay at all when you win (also how long does it take to get money). I just wanted to know how solid this place is? Any info on this place would be greatly appreciated.
Aha! Ahora nos sabemos para certo que los computadores de Paradise esta en el garaje del Sklansky!
El mero dueno de Paradise es SKLANSKY! Eso es la razon porque ellos quiren decir nada sobre las identidades del duenos. Ellos son sin verguenza.
Carambas!! Tan feo es la verdad. E de cual negocio de poker esta el dueno el asocio, Mason Malmuth?
Probable lo mismo.
only spanish i know. i like to smoke mota.
Porque piensas que Sklansky gusta el apodo 'El Supremo'?
Alright bro, you just posted this:
"someone recommended jones' book which i have studied and which truly does not apply to paradise (or highlands) online low limit games which do in fact play more like a real life 5-10 game or even higher"
I play low limit poker (for now). If I was to play at higher limits I'd probably get my ass kicked. I have not spent the days studying the strategies for those games as I have for low limit. I've read everything out there about these games. I can play some no fold-em.
You are dead wrong. The 3/6 game at PP plays textbook low limit. I'm always spewing about putting up #'s so heres something. I will log on to PP and record here the first 10 or so hands I see shown at the river. You want more, you can look for your self.
08:15 Table Freeport HAnds 34,941,493-...,957
Avg players to flop 47% Avg pot $39
Hands shown on the end:
56o 52s (same hand)
79o
Q9o
95d Q6c J5c (same hand)
A8o A2c (same hnad)
Q10d
67o 89s (same hand)
They don't get much looser than that pal. Yes, I am aware that this is a small sample and not concrete evidence. My point is that I just randomly did this. These are the first seven hands I saw called on the river. You will find this crap all the time, trust me.
If you can't apply Jones' concepts to this game and WIN you are not going to win at any level in any game.
You need a bankroll of at least $1200 to start at this at this level. I'd be prepared to buy in for $200 and be ready to put another $200 into play in a single session. Expect mad swings, but if you are good, you can show a profit after a few sessions. If you are down a couple hundred after a few sessions you are not beating the game period. If you are about even, you can probably beat it with more work.
In a unresponded to thread below, Joe challenged anyone to send him a 100 hand history from PP, and he would find leaks in your game and hands you played wrong. While I don't think anyone is gonna take that challenge and be criticized, I think he's onto something.
I'll e-mail anyone a hand history that wants to rip apart my game. I know it's not perfect. I know I make plenty of mistakes. Id love to have a bunch of different players analyze my game independently and then I can compare the results. I'll take a look at yours too if u want.
To me, that's a bunch of free poker lessons. Some experts charge hundreds an hour for personalized instruction and critique.
Everyone that wants to do this benefits. Good players will get better developing analytical skills, and no one is above having thier hands reviewed by peers.
Whaddaya think?
Look you guys AA is ONE PAIR. Here are the hands that beat ONE PAIR: 2 pair, 3 of a kind, straight, flush etc, etc. Do you get the idea??? The only thing AA beats is a smaller one pair and no pair. You have to learn to lay AA down. When the board and betting SCREAMS HEY STUPID I"VE GOT THE NUTS you must lay AA down. You are doomed to spend you life on 2+2 telling bad beat stories that ARE NOT BAD BEATS!!!! Now go out there and learn how to play this silly game. :)
N/t
Who are you responding to? Perhaps you could include your rant exhibiting your incredible grasp of the obvious in the thread started by the alleged crybaby.
The only threads I've seen lately are in the "Paradise is Rigged" vein.
I've started a new thread rather than bury my rants 12 post deep. Maybe it will be read by those not as wise as you, and whom have not grasp the obvious. Good Luck with all your AA hands. :)
Hey Rounder, en boca cerrado, no entradas mi penga!
Estupido American!
Quatros! Quatros! Quatros!
Aye Carumba!!
nt
no me gusta el pendejo Joe.
Es prohibido a usar la palabra m----a aqui.
pendejo....HA HA HA your a puto!!!
HEY what is this "espanol 101" stop this crappola and type in "ENGLISH" before ol' nightstick cracks your naughty fingertips before they hit the key=board.......NOW back to all this paranioa gossip about internet poker///
Although I play a ton on PP (and a little at Planet - but can't stand speed), I haven't followed what is happening online. Are there any good new sites to play?
Snälla ni, skriv inte på spanska, jag förstår ingenting!
No puedo creerlo. Pienso que entiende a El Supremo solamente una palabra de Espanol: taco.
this is a poker english, written, spoken forum.
I have posted several messages in the last few weeks documenting poker.com and payment delays. I am happy to announce that my cheque finally arrived 3 weeks too late, and after a least one or two reminders. However it seems that the site is safe to play at, and I might deposit some funds back into the account in the future.
Posted by: Jim Mogal (mogalj@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 November 2000, at 11:52 a.m.
Posted by: bigjase (bigjase1@excite.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 November 2000, at 12:34 p.m.
Posted by: clinteroo
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 November 2000, at 12:55 p.m.
Posted by: Dave
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 November 2000, at 2:20 p.m.
Posted by: jss
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 November 2000, at 3:13 p.m.
Posted by: clinteroo
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 November 2000, at 3:55 p.m.
Posted by: Talbot
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 November 2000, at 8:39 p.m.
Posted by: clinteroo
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 November 2000, at 6:02 p.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 November 2000, at 8:01 p.m.
Posted by: Goatboy (rowanj001@hawaii.rr.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 6:16 a.m.
Posted by: Goatboy (Rowanj001@hawaii.rr.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 6:43 a.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 12:11 p.m.
Posted by: Goatboy (Rowanj001@hawaii.rr.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 5:25 p.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 7:50 p.m.
Posted by: Goatboy (Rowanj001@hawaii.rr.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 5:48 a.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 9:56 a.m.
Posted by: Piers
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 2:01 p.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 November 2000, at 8:43 p.m.
Posted by: clinteroo
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 November 2000, at 9:34 p.m.
Posted by: Talbot
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 1:20 a.m.
Posted by: Goatboy (rowanj001@hawaii.rr.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 6:06 a.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 9:47 a.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 12:01 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 2:14 p.m.
Posted by: TheCat (thecat_08021@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 12:19 p.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 12:38 p.m.
Posted by: Underground (undergroundx54@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 2:35 a.m.
Posted by: Bob L
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 2:47 a.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 10:18 a.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 12:33 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 2:13 p.m.
Posted by: TheCat (thecat_08021@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 1:37 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 2:11 p.m.
Posted by: GD (guydowns@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 12:52 a.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 7:56 a.m.
Posted by: Charles
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 1:34 p.m.
Posted by: Steve (Sls95010@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 3:40 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 5:27 p.m.
Posted by: JayNT (jaynt@optonline.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 6:35 p.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 7:58 p.m.
Posted by: PhilZ (74022.3074@compuserve.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 11:10 a.m.
Posted by: tom
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 7:51 p.m.
Posted by: Zbych (zbych@poczta.wprost.pl)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 11:57 p.m.
Posted by: Zbych (zbych@poczta.wprost.pl)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 12:01 a.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 8:17 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 10:57 p.m.
Posted by: TheCat (thecat_08021@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 1:27 a.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 8:49 a.m.
Posted by: TheCat (thecat_08021@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 3:42 p.m.
Posted by: Jodder (jodderx@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 12:11 p.m.
Posted by: TheCat (thecat_08021@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 3:51 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 6:36 p.m.
Posted by: Talbot
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 12:59 a.m.
Posted by: PoorBoy (aneuhard@siscom.net)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 2:46 a.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 9:25 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 9:30 a.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 10:27 a.m.
Posted by: TheCat (thecat_08021@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 3:05 p.m.
Posted by: G. Ed Conly (econly@poweruser.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 3:46 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 10:03 a.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 12:48 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 6:35 p.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 1:51 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 2:19 a.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 10:36 a.m.
Posted by: backdoor
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 2:27 p.m.
Looks like your intentions are good. However there are a lot of archived threads that deal with this issue, including the DS quizzes. Before you do battle with the S$M empire, you might want to sharpen your sword.
If do you hit the archives, unfortunately you will run into a sea of drivel and a mountain of paranoia as well, so good luck.
As an aside, I can state unequivocally that online can be beaten by non colluders. I have direct and personal knowledge of this. There is a direct correlation between the posters who post legit poker material and winning online. Not a coincidence.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 6:20 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 6:45 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 7:03 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 10:30 a.m.
Posted by: Billy B (wwonka@ix.netcom.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 10:37 a.m.
Posted by: Chris Villalobos (chris@freeroll.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 11:47 a.m.
Posted by: Jodder (jodderx@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 1:14 p.m.
Posted by: Bob L
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 1:38 p.m.
Posted by: mike c(not caro) (mceb1313@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 2:13 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 10:18 a.m.
Posted by: Piers
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 3:22 p.m.
Posted by: TheCat (thecat_08021@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 3:36 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 10:27 a.m.
Posted by: TheCat (thecat_08021@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 3:28 p.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 5:37 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 10:43 a.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 1:25 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 7:18 p.m.
Posted by: Big Hitter
Posted on: Friday, 24 November 2000, at 12:24 p.m.
Posted by: Russ (Russ@Fox.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 5:30 p.m.
Posted by: Matt (ricem@stanford.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 9:31 p.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 2:34 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 7:01 p.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 8:14 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 9:22 p.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 10:41 p.m.
Posted by: Mr. About to Get Flamed
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 11:40 p.m.
Posted by: TPR (trobertson1@cfl.rr.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 11:56 p.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 8:29 a.m.
Posted by: CJC (cjc@insurer.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 10:23 a.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 12:12 p.m.
Posted by: jtlv
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 1:36 p.m.
Posted by: Terry (terryk@UNSPAMepix.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 12:38 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jeck (jakejeck@mail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 3:55 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 4:10 p.m.
Posted by: Terry (terryk@UNSPAMepix.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 1:43 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 2:44 a.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 8:56 a.m.
Posted by: Terry (terryk@UNSPAMepix.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 11:34 a.m.
Posted by: Russ (Russ@Fox.Net)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 5:34 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 6:04 p.m.
Posted by: Russ (Russ@Fox.Net)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 8:13 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 8:54 p.m.
Posted by: desire
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 8:24 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 10:36 a.m.
Posted by: World Class Skeptic
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 8:58 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 9:10 p.m.
Posted by: chipshot
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 11:50 p.m.
Posted by: Matrix
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 5:49 a.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 November 2000, at 11:14 p.m.
Posted by: Observer
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 2:36 a.m.
Posted by: Bob L
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 4:54 a.m.
Posted by: Matrix
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 5:47 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 8:17 a.m.
Posted by: Paul III
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 11:35 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 4:42 a.m.
Posted by: Matrix
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 5:42 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 8:52 a.m.
Posted by: World Class Skeptic
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 12:10 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 8:06 p.m.
Posted by: Planet Poker Player (planetplayer@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 1:57 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 2:55 p.m.
Posted by: Matrix
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 5:36 a.m.
Posted by: Observer
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 3:49 p.m.
Posted by: JDS
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 3:24 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 3:37 p.m.
Posted by: highlandsplaya (holdempoker25@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 3:19 a.m.
Posted by: TheCat (thecat_08021@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 1:21 p.m.
Posted by: Nick (nick@xprt.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 8:33 p.m.
Posted by: scalf (ae11@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 8:16 a.m.
Posted by: CJC (cjc@insurer.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 10:51 a.m.
Posted by: JayNT (jaynt@optonline.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 1:00 p.m.
Posted by: Nick (nick@xprt.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 8:55 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 9:11 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 10:49 a.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 12:26 p.m.
Posted by: PoorBoy (aneuhard@siscom.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 1:01 p.m.
Posted by: TheCat (thecat_08021@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 1:18 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 1:35 p.m.
Posted by: PoorBoy (aneuhard@siscom.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 2:19 p.m.
Posted by: PoorBoy (aneuhard@siscom.net)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 1:07 a.m.
Posted by: TheCat (thecat_08021@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 1:12 a.m.
Posted by: PoorBoy (aneuhard@siscom.net)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 2:26 a.m.
Posted by: PoorBoy (aneuhard@siscom.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 2:21 p.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 2:28 p.m.
Posted by: PoorBoy (aneuhard@siscom.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 3:38 p.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 3:46 p.m.
Posted by: TheCat (thecat_08021@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 5:02 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 6:54 p.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 8:05 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 8:09 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 8:35 p.m.
Posted by: TheCat (thecat_08021@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 9:13 p.m.
Posted by: PoorBoy (aneuhard@siscom.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 9:30 p.m.
Posted by: Dave
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 1:32 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 1:59 p.m.
Posted by: Dave
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 2:33 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 6:04 p.m.
Posted by: Mathguy (don_n1999@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 6:41 p.m.
Posted by: Mathguy (don_n1999@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 7:03 p.m.
Posted by: Dave
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 1:30 p.m.
Posted by: Dave
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 1:34 p.m.
Posted by: Mathguy (don_n1999@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 2:39 p.m.
Posted by: World Class Skeptic
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 11:49 p.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 1:41 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 3:02 a.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 12:28 p.m.
Posted by: TheCat (thecat_08021@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 11:03 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 9:49 a.m.
Posted by: Dave
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 1:48 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 10:06 a.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 2:44 p.m.
Posted by: Dave
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 3:07 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 5:52 p.m.
Posted by: Joe Cheezer (cheezerules@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 3:33 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jeck (jakejeck@mail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 3:37 p.m.
Posted by: Terry (terryk@UNSPAMepix.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 1:51 a.m.
Posted by: Joe Cheezer (cheezerules@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 7:36 a.m.
Posted by: Joe Cheezer (cheezerules@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 7:44 a.m.
Posted by: Jake Jeck (jakejeck@mail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 4:50 a.m.
Posted by: Terry (terryk@UNSPAMepix.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 4:56 p.m.
Posted by: highlandsplaya (holdempoker25@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 4:48 p.m.
Posted by: Bob L
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 5:22 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 5:55 p.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 6:20 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jeck (jakejeck@mail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 3:00 a.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 8:32 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 9:00 p.m.
Posted by: Scog (butfut@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 9:01 p.m.
Posted by: Scog (butfut@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 9:03 p.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 9:10 p.m.
Posted by: anonymous
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 10:05 p.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 9:14 p.m.
Posted by: This is a warning
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 9:25 p.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 9:29 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Mogal (mogalj@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 3:43 a.m.
Posted by: highlandsplaya (holdempoker25@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 12:15 a.m.
Posted by: Nick (nick@xprt.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 9:11 p.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 9:19 p.m.
Posted by: Terry (terryk@UNSPAMepix.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 November 2000, at 10:33 p.m.
Posted by: ChrisVWH (cvinall@smug.adelaide.edu.au)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 1:10 a.m.
Posted by: PoorBoy (aneuhard@siscom.net)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 2:38 a.m.
Posted by: Billy B (wwonka@ix.netcom.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 8:25 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 9:29 a.m.
Posted by: Planet Poker Player (planetplayer@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 11:59 a.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 12:07 p.m.
Posted by: Chip N. Achair (jivetalk101@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 12:40 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 10:03 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 12:00 p.m.
Posted by: Tom D (tomdv@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 12:53 p.m.
Posted by: Spence
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 1:37 p.m.
Posted by: Tom D (tomdv@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 2:52 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 3:06 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 3:37 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 3:48 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 4:38 p.m.
Posted by: Tom D (tomdv@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 4:11 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 4:44 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 1:56 p.m.
Posted by: Tom D (tomdv@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 3:05 p.m.
Posted by: Terry (terryk@UNSPAMepix.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 5:07 p.m.
Posted by: Joel
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 10:04 a.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 11:31 a.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 11:43 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 12:16 p.m.
Posted by: who owns Paradise Poker?
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 1:17 p.m.
Posted by: Joel
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 7:37 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 8:56 p.m.
Posted by: Joel
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 9:27 p.m.
Posted by: clear Paradise is corrupt, so is 2+2
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 1:16 p.m.
Posted by: Planet Poker Player (planetplayer@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 11:53 a.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 12:11 p.m.
Posted by: highlandsplaya (holdempoker25@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 12:42 p.m.
Posted by: Bob L
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 1:10 p.m.
Posted by: Jodder (jodderx@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 1:28 p.m.
Posted by: Jodder (jodderx@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 2:16 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 2:28 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 2:42 p.m.
Posted by: who owns Paradise Poker?
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 2:55 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 3:16 p.m.
Posted by: your a tax cheat?
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 4:25 p.m.
Posted by: World Class Skeptic
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 11:49 p.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 2:55 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 3:28 p.m.
Posted by: JDS
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 6:15 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 7:51 p.m.
Posted by: JDS
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 1:17 a.m.
Posted by: Joel
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 7:53 p.m.
Posted by: Jodder (jodderx@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 8:13 p.m.
Posted by: Joel
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 9:34 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 11:05 p.m.
Posted by: Joel
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 11:22 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 12:41 a.m.
Posted by: Joel
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 12:31 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 1:09 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 1:20 a.m.
Posted by: Joel
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 12:28 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 5:50 p.m.
Posted by: Foldie Hawn (mperry@dfrv.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 3:24 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 4:01 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 4:32 p.m.
Posted by: Mathguy (don_n1999@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 5:02 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 5:18 p.m.
Posted by: Mathguy (don_n1999@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 5:22 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 5:18 p.m.
Posted by: FoldieHawn (mperrypuzz@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 7:53 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 4:58 p.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 5:47 p.m.
Posted by: Tom D (tomdv@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 6:56 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 10:39 p.m.
Posted by: Tom D (tomdv@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 4:22 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 5:44 a.m.
Posted by: Tom D (tomdv@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 11:19 a.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 11:50 a.m.
Posted by: Planet Poker Player (planetplayer@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 12:55 a.m.
Posted by: ParmaPaul
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 5:42 p.m.
Posted by: Tom D (tomdv@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 11:04 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 11:15 p.m.
Posted by: GD (guydowns@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 November 2000, at 11:52 p.m.
Posted by: Bob L
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 1:02 a.m.
Posted by: Tom D (tomdv@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 3:54 a.m.
Posted by: GD (guydowns@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 10:28 p.m.
Posted by: Tom D (tomdv@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 12:35 a.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 3:28 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 3:47 a.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 4:42 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 5:36 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 6:10 a.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 9:10 a.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 11:30 a.m.
Posted by: TheCat (thecat_08021@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 12:00 p.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 1:01 p.m.
Posted by: Chip N. Achair (jivetalk101@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 12:40 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 2:18 p.m.
Posted by: fsd (SAS@DSL.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 12:17 a.m.
Posted by: Jodder (jodderx@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 12:52 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 1:06 a.m.
Posted by: JDS
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 1:34 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 1:45 a.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 1:33 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 8:21 a.m.
Posted by: Jodder (jodderx@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 10:00 a.m.
Posted by: jodder has lost his mind
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 10:24 a.m.
Posted by: Jodder (jodderx@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 11:45 a.m.
Posted by: of course you are anonymous
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 11:52 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 10:37 a.m.
Posted by: Joe (JoeBlow1980@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 12:19 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 2:22 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 2:26 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 2:53 p.m.
Posted by: M
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 4:54 p.m.
Posted by: Chip N. Achair (jivetalk101@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 1:22 p.m.
Posted by: Joe (JoeBlow1980@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 2:55 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 1:40 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 8:17 a.m.
Posted by: Jake
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 6:15 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 6:20 a.m.
Posted by: TheCat (thecat_08021@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 12:30 p.m.
Posted by: PoorBoy (aneuhard@siscom.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 1:58 p.m.
Posted by: TheCat (thecat_08021@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 2:34 p.m.
Posted by: Piers
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 1:26 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 8:14 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 10:38 a.m.
Posted by: he won't tell
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 11:48 a.m.
Posted by: Piers
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 1:14 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 2:19 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 2:56 a.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 3:39 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 3:55 a.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 4:51 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 5:55 a.m.
Posted by: HoJu
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 12:36 p.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 3:25 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 8:53 a.m.
Posted by: so whats your name?
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 12:55 p.m.
Posted by: Frode (frodegj@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 12:06 p.m.
Posted by: TheCat (thecat_08021@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 12:14 p.m.
Posted by: PoorBoy (aneuhard@siscom.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 2:17 p.m.
Posted by: Planet Poker Player (planetplayer@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 1:10 p.m.
Posted by: Mr.President
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 4:57 p.m.
Posted by: Mal (mal@cmpsource.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 9:15 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 6:42 a.m.
Posted by: mal (mal@cmpsource.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 11:09 a.m.
Posted by: dk (davidked@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 12:45 p.m.
Posted by: hetron (hetron@talkcity.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 1:42 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 2:18 p.m.
Posted by: clinteroo
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 2:34 p.m.
Posted by: hetron (hetron@talkcity.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 2:38 p.m.
Posted by: you stated for months that you won at Paradise
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 2:37 p.m.
Posted by: hetron (hetron@talkcity.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 3:12 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 3:41 p.m.
Posted by: Jodder (jodderx@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 4:21 p.m.
Posted by: hetron (hetron@talkcity.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 6:23 p.m.
Posted by: what's new?
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 3:27 p.m.
Posted by: spitball (spitball@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 5:09 p.m.
Posted by: Joe (JoeBlow1980@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 5:51 p.m.
Posted by: hetron (hetron@talkcity.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 6:27 p.m.
Posted by: backdoor
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 6:51 p.m.
Good post again. I remember you posting a question on how to beat hyper aggressive games and no one really having a good answer(including me). But I did post that these games are not easy to beat and game selection is the key to winning poker. Hyper aggressive games can be beaten but you do need a big bankroll and I have found (judging from some pros that I know) that the ones who have fared well at it are usually short handed specialist types as the games have that type of feel. I know of two pro players who were slaughtered online as well.
There is most definitely collusion too, but with good players (the only ones that can hurt you anyway), it is hard to detect(from a players perspective). I stay away from suspected teams.
Glad to hear your results.
Posted by: spitball (spitball@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 11:02 a.m.
Posted by: dk (davidked@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 12:06 p.m.
Posted by: Ken (kengoldstein@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 4:19 p.m.
Posted by: Joe (JoeBlow1980@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 4:32 p.m.
Posted by: Ken (kengoldstein@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 4:34 p.m.
Posted by: Joe (JoeBlow1980@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 5:37 p.m.
Posted by: Joe (JoeBlow1980@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 4:29 p.m.
Posted by: PoorBoy (aneuhard@siscom.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 5:05 p.m.
Posted by: Joe (JoeBlow1980@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 5:46 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 5:52 p.m.
Posted by: backdoor
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 6:35 p.m.
Posted by: paradise won't say who owns them
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 5:57 p.m.
Posted by: Spence
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 6:00 p.m.
Posted by: STOP your apologist crap!
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 12:52 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 5:58 p.m.
Posted by: Joe (JoeBlow1980@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 6:19 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 7:14 p.m.
Posted by: ownership information!
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 12:53 p.m.
Posted by: Joe (JoeBlow1980@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 6:22 p.m.
Posted by: what's new?
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 3:05 p.m.
Posted by: Spence
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 8:35 p.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 November 2000, at 9:35 p.m.
Posted by: Bob L
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 1:20 a.m.
Posted by: grumpy poker player
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 1:26 a.m.
Posted by: Bob L
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 2:23 a.m.
Posted by: joeblow (kokomo@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 2:30 a.m.
Posted by: Bob L
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 2:34 a.m.
Posted by: Angelina (angelina@fekali.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 3:00 a.m.
Studying People Inc.
Ljubljana, Slovenia
http://www.fekali.com/angelina
Posted by: kronos
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 5:36 a.m.
Posted by: bitchass (c8r8e8a8m8@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 9:13 p.m.
Posted by: mike c(not caro) (mceb1313@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 9:35 a.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 11:29 p.m.
Posted by: STOP your apologist crap!
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 12:15 p.m.
Posted by: you still haven't identified anyone
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 8:13 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 3:37 a.m.
Posted by: CJC (cjc@insurer.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 6:43 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 11:03 a.m.
Posted by: Spence
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 11:21 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 4:24 a.m.
Posted by: John F.
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 6:43 a.m.
Posted by: its always been there, doh!
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 12:14 p.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 3:34 p.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 3:49 p.m.
Posted by: desire (mmmmia@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 4:23 p.m.
Posted by: J.Gotti
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 5:45 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 2:14 a.m.
Posted by: D.R (rasheed@camtech.net.au)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 7:11 a.m.
Posted by: traeki (traeki@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 7:36 a.m.
Posted by: jazzman (ajshaw@uswest.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 9:32 a.m.
Posted by: dk (davidked@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 3:28 p.m.
Posted by: Joe (JoeBlow1980@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 4:18 p.m.
Posted by: Mike_Haven
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 4:52 a.m.
Posted by: TPR (trobertson1@cfl.rr.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 8:17 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 9:00 a.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 12:21 p.m.
Posted by: what's new?
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 2:57 p.m.
Posted by: PoorBoy (aneuhard@siscom.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 4:49 p.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 12:17 a.m.
Posted by: Andras Nagy
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 3:04 a.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 11:40 a.m.
Posted by: Joe (JoeBlow1980@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 11:13 a.m.
Posted by: Poker Surfer
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 11:38 a.m.
Posted by: Terry (terryk@UNSPAMepix.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 1:01 p.m.
Posted by: what's new?
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 2:56 p.m.
Posted by: Terry (terryk@UNSPAMepix.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 3:54 p.m.
Posted by: PoorBoy (aneuhard@siscom.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 5:08 p.m.
Posted by: what's new?
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 5:21 p.m.
Posted by: TT (timtress53@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 5:57 p.m.
Posted by: Jodder (jodderx@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 6:05 p.m.
Posted by: Jodder (jodderx@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 6:23 p.m.
Posted by: BK (artwong@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 10:56 a.m.
Posted by: Terry (terryk@UNSPAMepix.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 3:06 p.m.
Posted by: Terry (terryk@UNSPAMepix.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 3:13 p.m.
Posted by: dfds (sa@sas.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 4:50 p.m.
Posted by: Terry (terryk@UNSPAMepix.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 5:06 p.m.
Posted by: steely
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 5:25 p.m.
Posted by: Joe (JoeBlow1980@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 6:06 p.m.
Posted by: PoorBoy (aneuhard@siscom.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 6:08 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 6:14 p.m.
Posted by: YULL (sorokin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 11:27 p.m.
Posted by: spitball (spitball@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 6:22 p.m.
Posted by: TPR (trobertson1@cfl.rr.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 7:40 p.m.
Posted by: spitball (spitball@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 8:09 p.m.
Posted by: Nick (nick@xprt.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 4:12 a.m.
Posted by: steely
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 10:42 a.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 11:37 a.m.
Posted by: Joe (JoeBlow1980@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 2:14 p.m.
Posted by: sa (sa@ksjs.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 3:23 p.m.
Posted by: Joe (JoeBlow1980@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 3:24 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 4:44 p.m.
Posted by: Terry (terryk@UNSPAMepix.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 6:54 p.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 8:21 p.m.
Posted by: Joe Cheezer (cheezerules@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 5:48 p.m.
Posted by: Joe Cheezer (cheezerules@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 5:52 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jeck (jakejeck@mail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 4:36 a.m.
Posted by: highlandsplaya (holdempoker25@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 7:41 p.m.
Posted by: D.R (rasheed@camtech.net.au)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 6:57 a.m.
Posted by: jss
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 8:42 p.m.
Posted by: Joe Cheezer (cheezerules@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 11:18 p.m.
Posted by: B-Slap (davidked@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 11:29 p.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 11:42 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 8:45 a.m.
Posted by: Planet Poker Player (planetplayer@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 6:07 p.m.
Posted by: David Ottosen (dottosen@powersurfr.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 6:45 p.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 8:00 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 9:22 p.m.
Posted by: B-Slap (davidked@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 11:17 p.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 12:06 a.m.
Posted by: Marco Trevix (trevixget@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 November 2000, at 11:34 p.m.
Posted by: Jack R
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 4:34 a.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 5:35 a.m.
Posted by: Jorge
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 10:19 a.m.
Posted by: Jake
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 11:15 a.m.
Posted by: Jorge
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 11:44 a.m.
Posted by: bitchass (c8r8e8a8m8@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 8:49 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 12:14 p.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 9:24 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 9:50 a.m.
Posted by: Joe (JoeBlow1980@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 11:00 a.m.
Posted by: Joe's Dad
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 11:46 a.m.
Posted by: Planet Poker Player (planetplayer@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 6:05 p.m.
Posted by: Joe (JoeBlow1980@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 6:31 p.m.
Posted by: Cheech
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 11:13 a.m.
Posted by: Joe (JoeBlow1980@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 11:37 a.m.
Posted by: mierda
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 12:01 p.m.
Posted by: Jefe
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 12:23 p.m.
Posted by: Joe (JoeBlow1980@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 12:26 p.m.
Posted by: nightstick2 (nightstick2@usa.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 7:07 p.m.
Posted by: B-Slap (davidked@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 12:17 p.m.
Posted by: JDS
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 4:56 p.m.
Posted by: Mono Liso (terryk@UNSPAMepix.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 7:13 p.m.
Posted by: nightstick2 (nightstick2@usa.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 9:52 p.m.
Posted by: D.R (rasheed@camtech.net.au)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 November 2000, at 10:47 p.m.
Internet Gambling
November 2000 Digest is provided by Two Plus Two Publishing and ConJelCo