![[Two Plus Two Publishing]](/images/2+2.gif)
E-tiliting is the best part about Paradise. I often shown down pure bluffs that win, like when the board pairs low and I raise with JT-no pair and the AQ makes a "tough" laydown. It is guaranteed that this player will pop a preflop raise in the next two or three hands, and if you get a big one, you can clean up.
Of course, no one E-tilts like me. I once got hammered and lost $400 in one night when I had a set cracked 3 times in twenty hands. When I went bust, I bought in for another $200 and played 10-20 til I lost that, then.... you get the picture. Thank God for the 600/day limit. As for anon boy's comment, if Paradise is rigged, how come I've never been cheated? Every time I get raised out, and only one shows on river, I get a hand history. There have been a few questionable ones, but I've never seen anyone flip nut flush and have his "collaborator" muck 63o after sticking me for five raises with second nuts.
Plus, even after waking up with a hangover and stuck 600, I've made it all back and then some. Mebbe the 10-20 has a few partner players, but the 2-4, 3-6, and 5-10 seem legit to me.
(And if you have a problem with E-tilt yourself, I know where you can get a master ring :)
hope you tilters are around when i`m in vegas. for your info bad beats equal = poker....Obviously most of you dont have even the basic concept of the game yet.. jg
Paradise Poker rarely deals more than 50 hands per hour on hold'em tables. It's still pretty fast though....
Check the dealing speed by requesting 100 hand history and checking out time stamps on the first and the last hand entry...
Angelina
I think that what sometimes is happening is your getting new players that really have a hunger for the game and make only quality decicisions which in turn equals being a little more slow then your usaul players. so if someday you sit down in a live casino game and lose your shirt it just might be that "moron " that held up those games, who is a proficient decision maker. I`m one of those players and I`ll tell you when i sit at the table I know I`m at the table cause I see myself as favourite to win. I`ve spent at least a half hour watching early position laydowns etc.the last thing on my mind is number of hands per hour its only number of quality decisions made per hand for profit.
jg
So I guess the question becomes: what is an acceptable figure? I'll NEVER play if it's below 25% and I look for games over 30%. That's the beauty of playing online. When I can't find a decent game, I don't have to play. It's not like I'm driving 50 miles to the casino anymore. James
does anyone know how many hands are averaged to get % o f players seeing the flop? I was under impression that the % just pertained to the preceding hand, so dismissed the figure as useless.
does anyone know how many hands are averaged to get % o f players seeing the flop? I was under impression that the % just pertained to the preceding hand, so dismissed the figure as useless.
Yes, it's 9% of the most recent hand plus 91% the previous number that was there. As each hand is finished, this formula is used to update the statistic. It's not really an average of n hands, but it's sort of like an average of the last 11 (if you had to pick a number). For the purpose of comparing tables, it's more than adequate.
The average pot is calculated using the same formula.
According to this page, it's based on the last twenty hands. Is your info newer?
Very interesting! I had thought it was just a simple rolling average. So, with just a quick matlab computation,
contribution = .09 * .91.^[0:30]; for i = 1:31; cumulative(i) = sum(contribution(1:i)); end;
we can see that the last 6 hands account for half of the average, the last orbit is 60%, the previous orbit is 22%, and the one before that adds another 11% or so.
So that is why the number can change so fast!
Thanks for the info. You guys run a good show.
2 suggestions:
1) Include a third statistic, hands per hour, updated as above. It will help to find the fast tables.
2) Clear the zero players tables out of the list when sorted for pot size, players/flop, etc.
Thanks,
J
Strange - and very annoying - occurrence on Paradise this evening, playing 7CS. I had A's and K's on 7th. My two opponents check, the yellow buttons appear - promptly. I hit the BET button - promptly. Then...nothing. Well, except that I can still see the table activity right in front of me, even one player giving the old zzzzzzz as they wait - for me! (I even try and type a message saying I've hit the button). I get folded and lose a nice pot, along with all the money I've already put into it.
I know, I know...don't play until you've reset your all-in. It's the fact that the signal was coming my way without a problem. They go throught the same channels, so why would the outgoing signal take over 30 seconds or whatever, while the incoming was there no problem, even when it was sent well after my original bet response? Maybe this is more of a computer geek question, but I found it odd, to say the least.
Anybody else had similar occurrences, or do any more knowledgeable computer boffs out there know why this would happen?
Graham
Yeah Grahm, I had , and still have the same problem, I can play, holdem, but not omaha or stud .They fold me when I try to raise. ,put me in for extra bets ,when I try to fold, and get the prompts at the wrong time. Im afraid to use the littlesquares. In holdem, I was having the same problem. The server was telling me I had so many seconds to act. I deleted everything and downloaded it again, It worked to some extent. Now the server doesnt prompt me with so many seconds. Im always sitting on top of the buttons, I coulnt tell but I was still slow. I learned that from some of the other players who were telling me I was slowing up the game. I think the hardware requirements are higher at paradise. I can play holdem at Planet with no problem. Im not fast enough for the other games. I have an old computer with 20 RAMS , Paradise told me I need 32 RAMS. AT&T is a good connection , if that has any bearing. My keyboard is sticking or I would give you more input. Royal Flushes Don
To those who regularly play poker on-line, how would you compare e-poker to live poker? Do you find that most e-players are the more experienced players or is there a good mix of experienced and inexperienced players as one would find in a casino? Is Paradise the best e-casino? I am considering playing on-line, but first wanted to get input from other players. Thanks for your help. Kev
In my experience, the online players are definitely better than the ones I've encountered in live casinos - there's still a few fish floating around, but its not like you can find full tables of them like you can at the casino.
I play at Paradise and enjoy it very much - better than Planet Poker. I haven't tried any of the others so that's all I can say. Try Paradise's play money tables for a while and get a feel for it.
~DjTj
I find the play money tables much better then any other internet tables..Simply for the fact there seems to be more strategy and few maniacs..should I encounter a maniac I simply try to move to his left should the opportunity arise.Its the closet you`ll get to playing good poker for free. free or not I like playing with a," purpose" cause your working to better your table game. jg
I find the game to be much tougher online and actually more fun as the game moves way faster (on Paradise at least). The rake is also less than my local casino by about half.
Planet Poker is not nearly as good yet as the software is not as advanced. On Paradise, you can precall your hand, auto post blinds, etc. However, I have had Paradise crash more often. Paradise's display is also much cleaner.
Hi everyone,
I am considering taking a shot at on-line poker despite the reservations I have regarding collusion. Prior to this I have been wading through the digestified version of this forum, and as you can imagine this is hard work. About 6 weeks of wildly contradictory speculation was about enough and I gave up. To save me ploughing through the rest, has _anyone_ who questions the card distribution on these games actually put together a hypothesis first, together with the operators' logic and motivation for their actions, and _then_ gone and tested the data ? If so, please point me to the appropriate thread. If not, there is no need for me or anyone else to wade through the rest of it.
Cheers,
Andy.
Andy,
Just jump in, put in $100 or $200 (which I'm sure you can afford) and see how it goes. The biggest problem with online poker isn't the dishonesty, it's the ammount of time you can sink into it.
- Andrew
Andrew,
You're right, that is what I will probably do. It's just that I like to think about things logically and six weeks' worth of paranoia in one sitting put my brain on tilt !
Andy.
I had a go and initially was sucessful - but once you have repaid your credit card withdrawal you will be paid a $ cheque - I got charged 7% to bank this. Just something else to factor in to the equation.
Thanks Dave,
I think you should be able to get a better rate if you shop around, although it depends how much it was for. Without needing to know how much you won, if they charged more than £10 it was a rip-off !
Andy.
There is no way to prove that the actually site hosts are not cheating. They can steal a lot more from cheating than they will ever take from the rake.
They have a number of individuals who monitor these boards and post in defense of the sites. If you have followed the threads, you will know that these so-called experts post into almost every thread that is negative...trying to debunk the notion that cheating could be on-going by the sites themselves.
The fact is, they could be cheating everyone and no one can prove it. That's all it takes is a very small number of people who are tightly federated and unlikely to expose each other.
You can't know if they are cheating and no one can prove definitely that they are not. So if you play be prepared to lose in situations where you would normally win. Also be prepared to go crazy with suspicion.
As a former player who wins consistenly in live games,I am making it my business to warn people. It is corrupt.
trying to debunk the notion that cheating could be on-going by the sites themselves.
Just to clarify all of this FUD, let me present my opinion. I've done this before and you can probably find other clearer posts which describe what I think.
1) There *is* verified cheating going on. Most of this has been in the form of all-in cheating (or timeouts), and I know of a couple of verified cases of collusion.
2) The casinos may or may not be cheating. I have seen no evidence of it. If they are cheating, they are not doing it to such an extent as to make the games unprofitable.
3) I have not seen one credible piece of evidence posted in this forum or RGP which indicates that the casinos are cheating in some way.
4) In the end it really is up to you. Just like everything else, there is a risk/reward analysis to be done. For myself, I've rewarded from online poker.
- Andrew
http://www.rstcorp.com/news/gambling.html
1) This is old news, I already knew about it.
2) The problem was an exploitable flaw in the server software, _not_ premeditated cheating by the operators
3) It's been fixed now
4) This has never been a problem at Paradise Poker.
Are you prepared to answer my original question ?
Andy.
well..I believe Paradise is ok..I don't believe Planet Poker refunded monies to everyone that was cheated last year..or they wuld be bankrupt...They should have had better sense than to publish their code on the website. It is credible that Planet Poker was crackable, and that people did it.
I agree 100%. A lot of people think why would they risk millions!!!! GREED and no way to get caught!!!!
I just love how all these "live game winner" who can't win online always assume the game must be corrupt. Take it from someone who wins in live games and who wins online....the games aren't fixed. I have no proof other than i have no ties to any online game sight and i win consistently.
Randy, do you change your game when you log on to paradise or planet? You must have to play differently then in live games or else you won't be a consistnent winner.
I have been a consistent winner in 3-6 and 5-10 games in AC at the Taj, but get wiped out online. I haven't figured out how to alter my game to win online, and it's getting too expensive to keep trying.
What pisses me off the most is I have like $30 in my pending CC account.
I have been a consistent winner in 3-6 and 5-10 games in AC at the Taj, but get wiped out online.
This is a common experience. There are many possible reasons for this. Many have been discussed here on this forum. Possible explanations include:
* boredom
* e-tilt
* better players entering online casinos
* fish see how much they lose and quit
* lack of tells, in the broadest sense
* cheating
- Andrew
CB...I play slightly different online than in live games, but probably less then you think. Bankroll volatility online does seem to be higher than in live games, and this my be the root of most peoples problems. I've personally had down drafts of over $4,000 only to make new highs a few weeks later. I can see how an average player might think it was something other than the luck factor. As we know luck can be a factor in the short term, but long term solid play will take the money down.
Comparing the Taj to Paradise, do you notice any differences regarding:
1. How many people take the flop, on average?
2. How often someone besides yourself raises preflop?
3. How often the pot is won without a showdown?
You should, especially regarding the Paradise 5-10 game. Identifying any differences would be the first step to adjusting your play. A lot of posters here can offer suggestions.
eh?
Here's the key to this kind of thinking:
You can't know if they are cheating and no one can prove definitely that they are not. So if you play be prepared to lose in situations where you would normally win. Also be prepared to go crazy with suspicion.
It never occurs to these people that one cannot "prove definitely" that casinos don't constantly cheat in live games. Yet they'd laugh at anyone who said as much. (as in, "I can't prove that most people aren't out to get me, I should therefore act as if they are.")
The more telling remark is the one about going crazy. Some people have internet paranoia. I appreciate their reluctance to suffer in silence, but I wish they'd make some attempt to think it through.
Hi Andy
I had the same thoughts as you when I started playing at Paradise. At first I were very suspicious about online poker but then spent lots of time finding info about it. My conclusion was that it is an honest game and that the people behind Paradise would be insane if they cheated in any way. They sit on a goldmine and it only serves them good to keep the games clean. The only problem I've had so far with Paradise is that my computer crashes when I have WinAmp going simultaneously :-)
Though, it is like Andrew says, collusion exists though I have never noticed it. I think you should follow his advice, make a small buy-in and try. I'm pretty sure you won't be disappointed though prepare yourself for the fact that the swings tend to get bigger than in real life games. At least that is the case for me.
Good luck
Mattias
Those of you who have received checks from paradise - how long after you requested them did they arrive in your mailbox?
about 10 business days after cashout request
Just got a second check I requested a while ago, this one only took 9 business days and, as the one prior to it, was sent in some form of registered mail.
It's probably worth mentioning that I'm in California
Last check I asked for was on a Saturday night, and I received it Wednesday morning via DHL
JB
My girlfriend recently bought a new i-mac and I am having some trouble getting IRC Poker (newest version) to work on it. The IRC we site says you must use "open transport" but this is a downgrade from the file sharing capabilities available on OS 9 so Apple (via a warning message) does not recommend using it.
Anyone out there using IRC Poker on their i-mac? Any suggestions on how to get it working appreciated. I'll take help via the forum or email.
Thanks.
KJS
The following has happened to me three times on Paradise Poker. I sit down at a table, wait for the big blind and post. It is raised and I get out. My bankroll is minus 1 1/2 big blinds. It doesn't happen every time.
The last time it happened in a $10/20 game. I wrote down the exact time, date, table, limits, and emailed tech support. They responded promptly, but said they also needed the hand number.
Has anyone else experienced this problem? It is probably a glitch in their software. I imagine the software posted a small blind for me also and the money went into the pot. But, I don't know for sure?
Thanks,
Jim Kuhn AKA Catfish4U
I haven't seen this problem, but I'll be watching for it now. Thanks for the post.
Bob J.
I've seen it happen when my connection is lost and I reconnect. In other words, it makes up for mised blinds.Which is ok.
I did not miss a blind. I had just sat down the table. I can understand if I had missed both blinds.
Thanks,
Jim
well..I don't know then. I've seen some quarks with the software too. I 'm comfortable with the random generator, though.
I`m very curious why anyone would play internet poker when there is the very liklihood that two guys are most likely sitting in thier homes connected by phone using collusion to take your money... any logical explanation would be welcomed....
jg
Don't worry about colusion!!! Worry about the guys in Costa Rica looking in your hand!!!!!! Anyone who does not think they are is nuts!!! GREED GREED GREED
The perfect place for paranoia. I started out losing with similar reservations. Now I'm winning. I'll let you know if that changes.
I don't know about others, but I play because I win money.
- Andrew
Really? What a coincidence!!!! I play because: 1) I win money 2) The nearest casino is 50 minutes from my house 3) I don't have to breathe cigarette smoke in said casino
I'm winning lately..have most of my money back from the loss earlier in the year in 2 weeks...I get to play a lot...like 30 hours a week...I'm gaining experience that I wouldn't without.I can bounce around from table to table....and if I go on tilt I blame myself....I trust paradise poker's random distribution.....I've converted
very glad to hear the good reviews...I might someday give it a shot...... jg
Gongrats on the upswing Ray.
Keep it up.
- Andrew
You will convert BACK!! Wait a while>
I play online because: a) I'm too lazy to get out of my lounger to make the 50 minute drive to a real casino, b) so I don't have to inhale the smokers' poison, c) because my extra beef and cheese cheese-steak heart attack sandwiches are better than the casinos, and d) I enjoy having my play limited through the internet interface. Oh yes, also internet poker is minimally representative of real poker, which I enjoy.
Why didn't somebody tell me the game was rigged? I'm going to call up Planet Poker and demand that they let me give the money back. I don't want to keep the money if there was a possibility that I was cheated while winning it.
I play because those two guys are bad players and I can win twice as much money from them.
We'll be moving the forums to a new server shortly. Just before that happens, I'll disable posting on the forums. You'll still be able to read them, but not to post replies or new messages. Once the transfer is complete, I'll re-enable posting.
Sorry, in advance, for any inconvenience that this may cause.
Chuck
My spreadsheet's on my other PC, but I've averaged around $25/hr playing 5-10 HE games at Paradise, two at a time, over the last, say, 500 hours. But I can't seem to beat the 10-20.
Now, its possible that I'm just running poorly, or I'm playing too weak-tight at the higher stakes, but here's my theory: At 5-10, I'm playing against recreational players who at least THINK that they know what they're doing, and can afford to lose a few hundred if it comes to that. At 10-20, I find some of the same players, but I'm also playing against expert players who are way out of my league.
I'm not skilled enough to play "the biggest game in town" even if it is only 10-20. Consider how much more difficult the 3-6 than 2-4... all the players who KNOW they can't play are at 2-4, since its the smallest game in town. So while 5-10 may be a little tougher than 3-6 (I'm not sure it is) 3-6 is much tougher than 2-4. The same concept in reverse holds true for 5-10 vs 10-20.
What do you think of this theory... is it obvious, or out of line?
How come nobody plays 8-16?!
B$
I think it still is a matter of adjusting to a different game. 10-20 @ PP is harder to beat than the 5-10, but not so much harder that a winning 5-10 player should be a loser moving up. Likely short term bad luck is the reason. Scout the game before you sit in, give it a half hour. That may help. spitball
I've also noticed that the 10/20 is much tougher. While a player may be able to play two 5/10 games at once by playing tight and unimaginative, the 10/20 game may need to be studied more closely.
I think this would mean that only one 10/20 game could be played at a time vs. two 5/10 games. So the varience may be more and the player may win less in the 10/20 game vs. two 5/10 games.
The 8/16 game is redundant concidering the 5/10 and 10/20 limits. That's why it is never played.
CV
The 10/20 games are filled with very good players, more than a few of whom play two tables at once. If you want to succeed at that level, you have to be playing very well. Only the fish make real postflop mistakes, and if you start folding second pair heads up, I suggest you go to h2h school down at the end of the menu.
BTW, don't try and play 10/20 without the bankroll. It has much higher swings than the 5/10 where the good players play straightforward.
- Andrew
I'm happy with my earn at 5-10... Think I'll put my ego aside stick to it for a while. I think I need to run over a live 10-20 game one time, so I can' come back less gun shy.
How do you play in two tables at the same time? Do you need two connections or can you do it with the same username and computer? If not, what prevents you from playing two seats in the same game?
[excuse me if the answer is obvious but I was a little confused]
You do it with the same user name and computer; the capability is built into the software that runs the site. It doesn't let you play two hands at the same table.
I don't think this question would mean any difference in strategy, although I've been curious about it for some time.
It's my understanding that when playing video poker, your first five cards are "dealt" randomly. However, the replacement cards are lined up behind each of those cards, i.e., if you keep four cards to a straight flush, your draw card is not the "next" card from the top of the deck, but one which has already been placed as a backup to the discard card.
If this is indeed the case, does anyone know whether internet poker rooms operate under the same principle. For example, let's say you're playing 7 stud 8 or better. You have A-2-4 unsuited your first three cards, then you get hit with a J on fourth street. You fold to a bet; the next round, the guy following you gets a 3. My question is, would that 3 have been "your" card, or has that 3 been randomly assigned to him before the deal?
My hunch is that it would have been "your" card, since at 7 stud up to 8 people can play a hand, and of course you can't pre-deal 8 hands of 7 cards each.
Does anyone know for a fact, given the dealing program's limitations, whether the deal is "random" or whether there is an element of video poker to said deal?
Thanks.
What should we be satisfied with on-line given that:
a) far more hands per hour are played than live,
b) the play is generally reguarded as more difficult than live,
c) many of us play two boards at once.
My thinking is that a and b cancel each other out, we should still be earning one BB/hr. It has been suggested that playing two boards doesn't mean an increase to two BB/hr, rather we should expect more in line with 1.5 BB/hr. After 170 hrs. of 2 board play, primarily 5-10, I am doing slightly better than 1.5 BB/hr. This includes a 70 hr period of zero profits.
This number is in line with my live play results, mostly 4-8 HE. In other words, I'm doing as well on-line as I did in live play, very little difference. spitball
ps. I'm much more likely to hit and run on-line, something I never did live. The convenience of getting into a game on-line, plus the transient nature of the play and the genuine lack of good games that last more than thirty minutes are all contributing factors to my lack of commitment to any single playing session.
Well first of all, maybe in those medium (for online) limit games the play is fairly tight, but I play all stud h/l and the games are more live than what I can find in Vegas. Add to it the lower rake since they don't have stupid jackpots and no tokes and I think you would be hard pressed to say there are disadvantages in those categories.
As for the far more hands, I don't think that is necessarily true. Sometimes it is, but often times it is not. In live game you can always alert the slow player to his turn, but online you have to give him/her some time because often its just a slow game play problem for that person for many potential reasons. Further the speed of the game tends to reflect the talents of the players. The tight games surely go faster as fewer cards have to go on the board or to each players hand (in stud). Of course the slowest games have more action so that all really offsets in general. Only thing is that live higher limit games tend to go fastest because most players have lots of experience and quite a few are pros that understand more hands usually means more money.
All in all, I can say I rarely play live any more. I find I make more money online and don't have to deal with smoking. Now in CA it might be a bit different but then again charges are much higher there. Most of all, its hard to argue with the lack of tokes. In a 5 hour sit, that can be around or over $20 for me by my estimates, win or lose. Playing 4-8 that is absolute murder on your bankroll, giving back 2.5 BB. Add to it you can be much more productive at home. I play one board at a time and in the process of folding many hands I can accomplish things at home or on the net that would be impossible in a card room.
I played in play money games for 20 hours or so before moving to real money, just to get used to the controls at Paradise Poker. Even so, recently I have made two control mistakes; you all can learn from my goofs.
If you surf the web while playing one game (as I do in low-limit Omaha8), and if your windows overlap (I am on a laptop that only has 800x600 max), then the "scroll down" arrow on any standard Web page is in the same place as PP's "Leave Table" button. Yep, you guessed it. I was scrolling down a web page when PP brought back the table screen, I hit what I thought was the scroll down arrow once more, and I left the table. PP does not give you an "Are You Sure" button; you just leave the table immediately.
My next one was more costly. In an O8 game, by the river I had the nut high straight, no pair no flush and no low, and I got into a raising war with another guy (who presumably had the same thing). I made a raise, and I allowed my cursor to drift over where the "Show Cards" button will appear, and awaited his last call. What happened was, he raised one more time, and without really looking at what came up, I clicked. Well ... that's a disaster, because I clicked "Fold" instead of what I thought was going to be "Show Cards." OUCH. You have never seen anyone more surprised than I was when "my" pot was pushed to him.
(...not just a salutation...) Take Care.
Dick
I invested in a 21" just so I could put 2 tables on the screen.
CV
Wrong move. Invest in a second graphics card, a second 14" monitor, expand the desktop (in Win98 only) to both monitors and have one table displayed on each.
Angelina
Anyone have any news about pokerspot?
As of last night site is still not ready to spread live games.
Sign up for their email list and you will be notified when they are ready to begin.
Diane
I used to play in live games 20 to 30 hours per week before trying online poker. I've been playing at Paradise Poker the past month and have practically stopped playing in live games. In about 175 hours of play I've managed to make about $2000 at the low limit games (2-4 up to 4-8). That's almost 2 BB per hour. I'm thinking of taking a break for the summer because I'm neglecting other aspects of my life. To be a winning poker player, one must have balance in life. It's tough to have a balanced life when you work 40 hours per week and play 40 hours of poker per week. Am I the only one in this boat or there are other winning players who feel that they play too much? Any feedback would be appreciated.
no, a balanced life if not at all necessary to be a winning poker player -- it probably an impediment.
If you take a break for the summer, think about all those hours that you could have spent playing poker and making money. If you're a winning player, you cost yourself money everytime you're away from the table. Forget the other aspects of your life. Play poker!!!
The answer to this problem is obvious. You need to quit working 40 hours a week. :-)
I HEAR YA STEVE, WHEN I FIRST STARTED PLAYING ONLINE I WAS KILLING THE GAMES AT NIGHT, THEN REALIZED I COULD CLEAN UP EVEN MORE IN THE MORNING. THEN BEFORE YOU KNOW IT I WAS MISSING WORK TO PLAY AND COMING IN LATE ALL THE TIME. I FINALLY MADE A DECISION THAT I COULD PLAY BUT I ALSO NEEDED TO WORK OUT, OR READ WHILE I WAS DOING IT. BECAUSE AFTER TIME IF YOU'RE ONLY LOOKING AT THAT SCREEN YOUR EYES AND YOUR MIND WILL LOSE FOCUS. HOPE IT HELPS
You're right. My eyes just lost focus looking at your post.
Dan
Good Lord Steve, forty hours a week for $500? I also play too much online poker and waste too much time on forums like this, but put things in perspective man! Surely your time is worth more than that.
Its not worth the money you are making. Either play less and enjoy it more or move up in limits :-)
Play some live poker with people that you like. Maybe that will take the edge off a bit and remind you that this is supposed to be fun.
I'd love to know what playing style has given you this great win rate. I've been going through some painful losses at Paradise Poker, although I generally win at the low-limit games in N. California...
For some reason, I can't seem to adapt, and I'm not sure what exactly it is I am doing wrong. I think maybe I am playing too many draws.
Would appreciate thoughts on this.
Re: balance, YES you should always have balance in life no matter what you do. To the extent that poker is a sport, you have to balance training, competing, and other activities. Otherwise you will just become frazzled.
--james
Anyone worried that they give out tells in live games when they have AA should play at Paradise. When your AA gets cracked for the 6th or 7th time in a row you will begin to display a look of disgust rather than supressed excitement on receiving the aforementioned cards.
Before I quit playing online I lost 17 in a row with AA KK in 1 month! All of them looked very strange!!!!
hehe like usual I am surfing while playing. I just got my second AA in as many days while reading this message. Turned a set and it stood up.
Yesterday my check-raise on a 235 flop scared everyone away (yes, I know).
JB
You check raised making the pot $265 & no one called $10!!!! BULL----!!!!!
I had A-A, the flop was 2-3-5, I checkraised, everyone folded. What part of that don't you understand??
Where did you get 265? Did you think the pot was $235?? Preflop? Are you kinda moronic or something?
Something curious I ran across...
Could it be that the cards dealt at the online card rooms are truly randomly distributed, but in card rooms in real life they aren't?
Apparently something similar happened when they started to use computers to generate the hands for bridge tournaments. While the hands the computer generated were completely random, the hands generated from shuffling and dealing a physical deck were only pseudorandom---they depended EVER SO SLIGHTLY on the results of the previous hand. Players couldn't believe some of the truly awkward distributions the computer managed to generate.
After reading some of the posts on this board concerning the legitamacy of the games at Paradise and other places (rigged/not rigged), I was reminded of this article and started thinking. How well are cards shuffled in the card rooms in real life? At the ones I frequent, there are only about 4 riffles, preceded by mixing the cards up face down on the table. Since you need at least 7 riffles to ensure randomness, is the stuff done in card rooms sufficient?
Maybe this accounts for some of the weird hands some people are reporting ... their perception of randomness is based on observations of processes which are not truly random at all?
Anybody care to comment?
Dave
In hold'em I figure any dealer with a half decent riffle can completely randomize the cards. The tests for randomness are complex. Casual human observation will offer no insight, only worthless recognition of spurious patterns. A bunch of cranky 65+ year old bridge players will bitch, that's a given, but the cards they hold are not likely to be too different either hand shuffled or computer generated.
This is an interesting question.
There's a big difference between poker and bridge that you are overlooking -- the play of the hand in bridge has a natural tendency to organize (de-randomize) the cards. Why? Because most of the time you are following suit. And frequently, the suit played in one trick is the suit played in the next. Thus, bridge has the effect of producing a pile of cards that is "clumped" together by suit.
Poker, by and large, does not have this effect. There's no grouping of cards during the play that would tend to impose noticeable order on
However, there are some other non-random things that can happen. A dealer with a sloppy shuffle will tend to leave some cards near the top and others near the bottom, which means that certain cards might re-appear more than would be expected.
I've played with at least one dealer who would consistently flash the bottom card when shuffling, with the net result that after the cut I could "predict" a card that would show up on the board a larger-than-average percent of the time.
Anyhow, given the way poker works, my intuition tells me that one should not be able notice a difference between the randomness of computer-shuffled poker and that of human-shuffled poker (which definitely is NOT the case in bridge unless the human shuffles enough times).
--james
Actually, some bridge experts recommend plays based upon the non-randomness of the cards.
When you have to determine which opponent holds the queen, and you have absolutely no other information to go on, assume that it's behind the jack.
The reason is that on the last hand, there's a good probability that the queen covered the jack. This means that it's now below the jack as the cards are turned over. Given that, the queen and jack probably weren't seperated in the suffling process. This means that the queen was dealt out right before the jack.
It's not much to go on, but it's probably better than a 50% chance, which is all you're looking for when trying to make your contract.
Dan
I've had fun and profit playing on PP but I've run into a problem. PP's credit transactions have been timely and accurate (getting credits back to my card and checks by mail). PP told me that they code my buy-in's as credit card purchases but my credit card company (a big one) lists them as cash advances charging me a higher interest rate. I tend not to leave $$$ in PP, cashing in and out as in a real cardroom. Anyone else have this experience?
I don't get charged interest - it must be up to the credit card company. I am based in the UK so its no use me giving you my credit card company, but hopefully someone will read your post and provide you with a company that doesn't treat buying chips as cash withdrawals.
First USA Visa treated mine as purchases.
how do you get around the once a week cashout rule? I would prefer to be able to cashout regularlylike a casino. I don't think its possible.
If you have more than one or two credit card deposits on your PP account, then you are either losing or not managing your funds properly.
You should deposit enough $ to cover three or four buy-ins. If you play 5/10 games, then deposit $750 in one shot. Then cash out when you reach $1100. Cash out down to $750 again.
I made one small deposit back in November and never had to deposit more $ again.
My understanding from reading the "rules" @ Paradise was that you could only buy in for a maximum of $600 per day.
How did you do $750?
Diane
what you can do is get yourself a mastermoney card, which directly removes the funds from your checking or savings account. of course you can just have a small account set up for these types of withdrawls to ensure safety. but i dont get charged any interest
In Paradise, during showdown you see all cards in order so you know exactly which were in the hole and what was river card.
When playing live poker in the cardroom I'm always mixing my facedown cards before showing them. Why to give so valuable information to opponents.
zb,
Why would you worry if your starting with good or bad cards. Your trying to pu info on them hopefully, you know what your doing.
Paul
I have been playing at Planet Poker for some time now but since their recent upgrade, the Stud H/L games have completely died. Does Paradise have the game and if it does is it usually going? What are the games like in terms of limit and action?
WB,
They have games going almost 24hrs a day when I have signed on.
2-4,3-6,4-8,8-16.
I'm not sure if all the limits are opened at all times but they are good games.
Check it out Bill
Paul
Does any one know of a online casino that you can player poker on by e-mail only? Not having to down load such as WRGRT9 a tournment only game.
Coyote
Can someone give me a list of all the sites that have live poker other than ParadisePoker. Thanks!!!
go to search engine type in," internet poker" and wa-lah
jg
0f couse I did that long before troubling the good people of this fourm. The search "internet poker" brings up every gambling site in the world. Most feature VIDEO Poker and NOT Live Poker.
So once again I ask if anyone has a list of sites in addition to Paradise. Recomendations are welcomed
Playing that amount a day on Pa Po for 5 days including all games except HTH I find that even the lower limits 2-4 are much tighter than when I go to FW. I'm loosing so far but I expected that because I'm just learning on 7CSH/L8, OH/L8, HE (I might be losing anyway). The best game for the money IMO is 2-4 OH. Since I've never seen anything higher than that and it is only spread at nite and weekends afternoons one game. They will have to increase the limits soon I would imagine, but I don't know.
I do have one problem and that is my computer freezes up quite a bit causing me to forfeit the hand because I never have all-ins due to the fact that I am always freezing up Catch 22. I defrag it yesterday so we'll see how it works tonite. I have Win 98 56k modem, if anyone had this problem you can either email me or respond here whatever thanks.
Paul
I have Windows 98 with a 56K as well. I've never had much of a problem. Ask for an all-ins reset as soon as you lose your all-in. I've never been denied (probably since they realize I really do get disconnected) and it usually takes just a few minutes. I think it has much more to do with your ISP than your processor or modem speed. James
If you have "Active Desktop" activated, turn it off. That was causing me to lock up. Active Desktop is the setting "View as Webpage". Right click on the desktop (not an icon) then first line is Active Desktop. Then make sure there is not a check mark by View as Webpage.
Hi Paul, you'd might want to shut down other programs running simultaneously when you play on Paradise. I've experienced problems with that and when I lost a $150 pot I decided to not have anything else going meanwhile... Also, try the $5-$10 Holdem game, I've played it the past days and the average playing standard there isn't by any means impressive. And do as the previous poster suggested if you lose your all-in, just ask for a reset and you'll get it.
Mattias
Thank you all for your suggestions I tried some of them and I'm thinking of upgrading to 64 megs of ram to help with speed etc. My friend told me that 32 really isn't enuf to run win 98.
paul
I have had that problem too, but I upgraded from 32 to 64 mb, and all applications run much faster now. The main reason is that the system does not need to use the hard disk for memory.
However I am running Win95. I read just a few days ago, either on CNET or PC magazine (I think it was CNET), that Win98 runs ideally on a machine with at least 128 mb, and Win95 should have at least 64.
Hey all--
This is a question for you more experienced Paradise/Planet players. I am thinking of signing up and playing some 5/10 or 10/20. I play mostly hold'em. The weakest part of my game is reading my opponents and remembering specific tendencies.
My Questions: 1.) Do any of you keep a written book on your opponents at these games? Now in regular poker, we might remember "the guy in the cowboy hat is a maniac", etc. In online poker I imagine that you could take notes on your opponents and learn their tendencies a lot more than you can in regular casino poker. i.e. "Mickey22 tends to limp with AA or KK in early position." If you play with these people enough, I bet you can really get to know them better than in the casino. Does anyone do this? Does it help?
2.) For Stud, which I rarely play but might start, couldn't you really keep track of folded cards well and calculate odds easily. I am sure that I am not the only one doing this, but enough players probably don't to make it profitable. In the other games, you could figure out your odds a lot better too. You could sit there with a cheat sheet.
Memory is the worst part of my game and I think that online poker can really help out. The things you couldn't reasonably do in a casino (sit there and take notes on your opponents/write down exposed cards) could really be exploited here. Even if the other pros are doing this, there have to be tons of bad players who don't right? I've heard that the games are tighter, but this should make up for some of that, right?
Thanks,
MDMAniac
1. yes and yes.
2. don't play stud.
One gameplan for on-line success: a. begin at 2-4 and get a feel for the game. take notes on a variety of topics,e.g., limp/raise, bet-out or check-raise, and calling standards, reliability of flop and turn bets, raises, and check-raises. many of the names you see in the 2-4 game will also appear at the higher levels, b. when you beat the 2-4 consistently, split your screen and play two games at the same time. when you are comfortable with 2xgames, move up.
yes the games are tighter and more aggresive than most live low-limit games, but compensation comes from playing far more hands /hr and no tokes. I have earned 1.7 BB/hr playing 2xgames fulltime over the last four months. spitball
Is that 1.7BB per hour for both games combined or 1.7BB for each individually?
combined
.
Dunno,
I play the stud games all the time, and do just fine.
- Andrew
ok, I'll try.
Heh.
I thought you were advising us: "don't play stud," hence the question, not that "I don't play stud."
Actually I don't either but have been preparing to begin.
So I'm playing a 5/10 game last night, and also chatting with some lonely chic on my messenger.
I'm typing away and notice I'm delt 8d,2c in the small blind. All players fold to the Button (Tight Aggressive) who raises. I plan to muck but accidently hit the Call button. $H|T!! The BB calls also.
Flop: 9c,8c,8s
Yesssss! Ha. I check. BB Checks. Button makes the obligitory Bet. I raise. BB Folds. Button Calls.
The Turn: [9c,8c,8s] [2d]
Can this get any better! I Bet all the way and get called on the end. Button mucks.
Im happy. Lonely chic's happy. Button's on Tilt. Life is great!
CV
I don't understand this post at all.
When do you get to the part where you lost because the river made the opponent a bigger full house and the online places must obviously be rigged because no one can win online without determining the non-random deals or sitting with four college buddies in a room sharing their hands?
Obviously this was just a small typo in your post. I'm sure you'll correct it.
Dan
Right, the river is a Qc. I bet the river the Button Raises, I reraise, Button Caps. Button turns over Tc,Jc for the Straight Flush. I find out Lonely Chick is acctually a Fat Bald Man named Bob. I go on Tilt for the rest of the night and loose my whole bankroll. Life sucks. Is that better Dan. ;^)
CV
CV,
That's better I thought you were starting to enjoy life and that talking to a woman saved you money rather than costing you money!!!
paul
the lonely chic is a three hundred pound sweat hog guy, the people you beat are pulling out there hair over your stupidity...and you are gloating.
Now, who's the knuckle head in this picture?
Wow,
You just described my Wednesday night perfectly.
- Andrew (who swears he'll never be whipsawed at the river with only Aces-up 3-way in stud/8 again)
Playing poker over the internet causes as many butt sores and warts as live poker.
Just thought I'd let you know.
Does anybody know the address of the online poker room that Doyle is endorsing?
highlandsclub.com 1 800 341 2098 Opens June 6 2000
I have seen Doyle's new site Highlandsclub.com. It is supposed to open on June 6th. Check it out . It has the makings of the best looking internet site todate. The toll free # to get more info is 1-800-341-2098
Ed- No, I don't know. But, if you're looking for a game drop me a line (I don't know what the rules are re: dealers playing downtown) and I'll get you an invite. Sorry I haven't been up to the hill in a while, but I've been busy. In the meantime, keep dealing your players pocket 9's... :)
I just started playing Paradise last night so this message is not what I want to hear this morning. I have a question, though. You say that you don't think that these people know what other people have, nor can they control what cards come out. Yet, you state that this sort of thing happened hand after hand until the room emptied. It seems to me that this wouldn't happen hand after hand because the cards are random. That person is not going to get the best hand everytime, even if he knows what cards are to come.
I would think that it would be extremely difficult to spot this type of thing 17 times when statistically, the best starting hand, wins a good percentage of the time.
Also, in response the the guy who knows people at Compaq, it has been my experience that a lot of computer people claim to be able to hack anything. They say things like "I can hack that, I just don't". Yeah, whatever buddy. I'm not claiming to know whether it can be hacked or not, but I think I'd need a little more evidence than that, especially with all the conflicting reports out there.
Anyways, I don't know if I'm just trying to justify my playing on Paradise, but these complaints seem a little suspect to me.
Just so everyone doesn't think that I originated this source, I want to openly declare that I am not "Player". My recent results on Paradise are good. When I get run down by people illogically winning with trash, I change tables. Sometimes the players appear so ignorant of poker theory that it is difficult to say whether they are low limit maniacs or sophisticated computer people. Enough poer illiterates exist online to make it profitable for the skilled player. I suggest frequent table changes.
Just like in most other things, the people(if there are any), that can hack in, won't tell anyone about it, whether they can or can't do it or whether they will try to do it or not. I am a computer programmer. Can I do it? Don't know, haven't looked at it and don't want to look into it, but if I did look into it and could do it, I wouldn't tell anyone. Mouth shut = no witnesses.
I spent a great deal of time looking into the different online Poker Sites. The main reasons that I selected Paradise were, good reports from the RGP newsgroup, and the ability to insure a fair/quality deal each and every time. This included the security to back it up. I was aware of the issues that several of the other major online Poker Sites shared, which is a common software interface/backend support. Paradise spent some major money creating their system from the ground up.
My concern is not that the site could possible be hacked, but that their is colusion among players. As others have stated, this can be detected. Since I am still learning how to correctly play Hold'em, I am not playing at the upper dollar limits. This is where I would expect problems to arise. Having spent the better part of the last 12 years in the technology sector, I find it hard to belive that the average hacker could crack Paradise.
Listed below you will find a paper that Paradise created related to their number generation. It is very insightful:
This paper describes some of the issues of random number generation and how it relates to shuffling cards for multiplayer internet poker. We believe the public scrutiny of the algorithms used for generating random numbers and shuffling cards is the only way to ensure we have the best solutions in the industry. We continue to monitor newsgroups and cryptography mailing lists to ensure that our solutions remain the best. After reading about our methods, we're sure you'll agree.
There are a number of issues in common between random number generation for data security purposes and for shuffling cards in multiplayer online poker. The goals in both cases are to produce a number (or stream of numbers) which cannot be predicted using any and all available data. Both have the possibility of an adversary using a computer to help reduce the number of possibilities, and both can benefit from the same solutions. A large seed and a diversified non-predictable entropy pool are critical for both applications.
First, a little math to help explain the importance of a large seed and why we DON'T use the standard rand() function found in today's compilers:
Let's take Seven Card Stud as an example... if you had a 32-bit seed for your random number generator (the most common size in today's program compilers), that would give you over 4 billion possible ways to shuffle the deck. That sounds like a lot, but as you shall see, it's not nearly enough.
After the first round of cards has been dealt, you can see your 3 cards, plus 1 card for each of your 7 opponents. That makes a total of 10 cards visible. The first card cuts down the possible seeds by a factor of 52, the second by 51, and the third by 50. Let's multiply that out and see where we get...
52*51*50*49*48*47 = 14.65 billion.
By the time you get to 6 cards (you didn't even need all 10), there aren't any more possible outcomes (14 billion is more than 4 billion) and a determined adversary can easily predict each and every card that has been dealt and that is going to be dealt, all the way to the end of the game. In fact, a 32-bit seed isn't even adequate to ensure that player 1 doesn't get more than his fair share of pocket aces! This is obviously very bad for multiplayer poker, and fortunately there is a solution.
Lets continue with the multiplication... again in Seven Card Stud, by the time all the cards get dealt, there will be your 7 cards visible plus 4 for each of 7 opponents for a total of 28 cards visible (over half the deck).
52*51*50*49...*26*25 = 52!/24! = 1.3*1044 (which is 13 followed by 43 zeroes, or roughly 2147).
As you can see, even a 147 bit seed just barely reduces the number of possibilities to 1 by the time you factor in the last card. Clearly a larger seed is needed.
In fact, a deck of cards can be shuffled 52! different ways (approx. 8 x 1067, or 2225). To attempt to shuffle a deck of cards using merely a 32-bit seed like some of the other poker software does, results in at most 4 billion combinations. That's merely 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000005% (or 5 x 10-57 %) of the possible ways to shuffle a deck. Clearly inadequate.
We have chosen to use a 2016 bit seed for Paradise Poker. Some might call this overkill or paranoid, we think it was worth the effort. Using this method, combined with our shuffling algorithm, allows us to shuffle a deck so that ALL possible shuffles are indeed possible.
So what good is a 2016 bit seed if it doesn't contain random data? If we were to assume for the purposes of this discussion that each hand takes approximately 120 seconds (some take more, some take less) and that we wanted to have at least 2000 new bits modifying our seed for each hand (overkill), we would need approximately 17 completely random (non-predictable) new bits per second to add to the entropy of our seed.
We have two main sources of these random bits. First, the rng on the server samples the low order bits of the CPU's time stamp counter (667MHz) at irregular parts of the program and when data is received from client connections, and uses it to add to the entropy in our large seed.
Secondly (and mainly) the client programs send their own 32-bits of entropy with every action they make and with several of the other packets they send to the server. The client's entropy is gathered from both mouse and keyboard movements, as well as the lower 32-bits of their CPU time stamp counters. With hundreds of clients connected using all sorts of different hardware and moving their mice in different non-predictable ways, this is by far the biggest source of entropy and gets us far more than 17 new random bits per second. In fact, tests performed in March 2000 indicate that it typically yields over 3000 bits of new random data per second. We're using several sources of reliably random entropy; no single point of failure. Can you say overkill?
It is important to note that these new bits do not replace the existing seed bits, they merely modify the existing seed (XOR), therefore making it less predictable. Even if an attacker was able to feed non-random (probably fixed) data in place of the entropy we expect, there is still plenty of new random information from other clients and from the server itself to ensure that we are dealing truly randomly shuffled decks of cards.
The updated seed is used for dealing cards during each card dealing round, and since a hand always lasts longer than it takes to inject 2000 bits of new random data, all subsequent cards will be dealt using a seed which is completely random and which is completely unrelated to the seed used to deal the previous hands of cards.
You can't ask for better seeding than that.
The random number generator itself is based on the Berkeley prng using a state table size of 64 longs. We modified it to allow changing the seed state without a save/restore operation, but other than that, it is the same algorithm that has been scrutinized by data security professionals for years.
You may also wish to read about our shuffling algorithm.
We at Paradise Poker first recognized the shuffling problems with other internet poker sites in April of 1999 (nearly 6 months before we opened for business). It became apparent to us that we should simply do it right the first time. We are proud to say we have offered this level of security to our clients from the first day we opened. We believe you'll agree that this is by far the most comprehensive shuffling solution available at any internet poker site.
Internet Gambling
May 2000 Digest is provided by Two Plus Two Publishing and ConJelCo
