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Jim if you have saved 100K hand histories, then you should be able to do a fairly good analysis on your own. There is NO WAY that PP is going to release the hole cards. Imagine how you would feel if you had played 50,000 hands of 20-40 on there? Would you want to give 50,000 free poker lessons because Paradise released the Hole Cards?
I would certainly love it if they did. Imagine being able to go back and find out what your opponent had in all of those hands. Imagine being able to get the hand histories for the top 20-40 players on there. Talk about powerful stuff. There would be an outcry from the poker community and I'm sure many players would be very very pissed and stop playing there.
The only hole cards you are ever going to be able to analyze are your own. That should be enough of a sample for you. I am working on my own rather large sample, unfourtunately, I have to dig out my college textbooks for this statistics stuff, I will of course post the results, probably on a web page and here when I am finished.
How do u go about to do that? I mean, there must be a way to import the textfile in an easy way into a dbs-template like Access.
Can anyone advise me on this please?
I really really like High-Low-Split Poker by Ray Zee (he also posts here). It covers both 'zoo' games (like the LL ones on Paradise) and higher limit tight games. Great book. ZOO GAMES RULE RAY! In fact, I am at the zoo right now..I especially like the Aquarium there...
Available on this site...
http://www.twoplustwo.com/books.html#High-Low%20Split%20Poker
How do I access the RGP forum ??
RGP is a discussion group on USENET. USENET is a huge collection of different forums like this one on almost every concievable topic..
In order to get access to the USENET groups, you will need access to a news server. Most ISP's either have their own or lease access from a company that specializes in running news servers.
The first thing you need to do is call your Internet service provider and ask them if they provide a USENET news server.
If they do, ask them for the name OR the IP address of the server and if you will require any kind of password for access to it. Most news servers limit access by the network you are on, so in most cases, all you need is the address (this will either be a name or a IP address).
Once you have the name of the server, go download a program called 'free-agent'
http://www.forteinc.com/
it is available for free at the link above. Once you have dowloaded agent, the first time you run it, it will ask you for the name of your ISP's news server and your personal information. Do not put in your regular e-mail address..instead use something like this. cheezerulesNOSPAM@hotmail.com.
the reason for adding the NOSPAM is that many people cull the usenet forum posts for e-mail addresses and you will get TONS of junk e-mail (SPAM) from the first time you post if you don't do this...and I do mean tons..I have been on usenet since the early 90's and I have one e-mail address that receives over 800 messages daily.
Free agent should then go online with your ISP's news server and get the master list of groups/forums..this will take some time as last time I checked on my news server there were about 60,000 different forums.
You should be able to take it from there by reading the manual that comes with free agent. I would suggest that you just read posts (Usenet folks call this lurking) for a while before actually posting any messages of your own.
You should also read some of the things here..
http://www.bcpl.net/~jspath/usenet-newbie.html
You might be shellshocked if you post something and get a bunch of angry people replying to your message. (This is called flaming in USENET terminology). You won't understand why they are mad because you just asked a simple question...
The main reason people get mad on Usenet is that when you post something, it is sent to your ISP's news server and from there, it is propagated out to all of the other news servers in the world...in other words, the one message you post might end up taking up about 50 MB of disk space by the time it is copied to all of the other news servers in the world. Therefore, they really don't want you wasting words..or asking questions that have already been asked..etc. Most of the major discussion groups have a FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions)..look there first before you ask a question.
USENET is a remarkable thing. There are discussion groups about ANYTHING you want to discuss...and volumes of information. It also has it's share of kooks (like me). I wish you the best and if you have problems, you can always write me at the above e-mail address.
Best regards,
Joe
PS, If it turns out that your ISP does not provide a news server or access to one, all is not lost. Go to yahoo and search for USENET access. There are several free servers with read only access (you can read but not post) and several pay services that will allow you access to a news server for just a small fee each month. There are also free web based ways to read usenet discussion groups. The best of the best was DEJA.COM, they were just sold to google and are in a transition phase right now. I would suggest
http://www.newsranger.com/
if you just want to read usenet groups from the web.
IMHO, usenet is one of the best things on the Internet...especially if you like porn..(J/K). You can find my picture at..
alt.naked.pokerplayers.wrestling.latino.blondes.binaries
You will get that joke after you have been on USENET a bit.
First of all, congratulations on the revival of the 'Internet Poker' forum on 2+2. Gone are the days of nothing but conspiracy theories and whinening, and back are the threads we all like to read and discuss...aces, cases and faces!
I've got this hand on a $3-6 table, which I'd want your opinions on: KdQh in early position. UTG folds, I limp. Two more limpers (mid-position and button), we take the flop four-handed. It goes: K-Q-x, rainbow.
Now, I usually don't slowplay this hand, but BB puts me in a spot of bother by betting straight out, and it comes to me with two players yet to act behind me. This is a hand that could be pretty easily dragged out, but how easily? I decide to raise.
Comments?
lars
In this spot, I would put BB on K - x or Q - x. On Paradise poker..maybe just the x. :-) I would never slow play top two with two broadway cards on board. He has trash in the blinds, they almost always do. Anytime I am playing against the blinds, I assume trash until his raises tell me otherwise. It would also depend on your read of this player. It is possible that he has a small set or something, at LL, it is possible that he has anything. He could have also limped with a big hand like A-K because of the large field...and now you are going to make him sorry for it. It might also be natedawg employing his strategy and limping with QQ because of the large field and he is going to make you sorry.. If he has you with a set or something, then thems the breaks. Play your top two like a maniac! Top two vs a set, you are going to loose some bets.
You have one of the K's and one of the Q's which makes you a little happier...and the fact that there might be a nate waiting in the weeds less likely. I would hammer the crap out of him with raises unless I am absoultely certain I am beat at some point later in the hand. ON THE FLOP is the time to find out. Not later! I would be extremely cautious if he still bets into you or raises you on the turn card. How I proceed on the turn would depend on how many players are left. With the other players in the pot, NO WAY you can afford to slow down. They MUST go! I play top two very very fast. It is a money maker at the lower limits but it is also very vulnerable when you have a bunch of suckout artists drawing against it. ESPECIALLY when the flop contains two broadway cards. People will draw to a gutshot broadway when they wouldn't even consider drawing at another type of gutshot. Sometimes they will even bet the damn things like they have the nuts or in order to make you slow down.
I pay particular attention to players that limp with big hands like nate. If I notice a player showing down A's or K's without a raise preflop then I know to watch out for him later on. Had you watched any of this players showdowns prior to this hand? That might have given you a clue to his holdings. Another thing you can watch at LL tables that will give you a great line on someones play is HOW they play from the blinds. For instance, if a player defends his blinds with sST (small Suited Trash) in a small pot and then shows down the sST and wins a pot with it when he had no justificaton for his call, he gets a little note on my legal pad. I normally play for 5-6 hour sessions at the same table, you can get quite a book on someone in that amount of time. Some people play like such idiots that it is hard to get a line on them, but you can still discern if they will slowplay..etc. After you have taken notes for a while you can dig thru your notes and find many of the players that you are playing with at your current table. It is a pain in the ass at first, but you will get PAID for your effort. This is another reason I LOVE Paradise Poker. I could really never sit there in a live game with my legal pad and take notes..go back and look at their unshown holecards..etc...dig thru old notes and consult them at the table. I guess I could, but people wouldn't like it much.
People tend not to vary their style of play much. If he protects his blind today with sST, he will protect his blind tomorrow with the same thing.
Hope you won the pot. I would be interested in hearing your results.
Regards,
Joe
Everyone lays down!
Maybe it is right to give the broadway cards a chance to catch up or for BB with his Qx or something hit x pair too.
I don't know. All I know is that yesterday, I lost bets with top two pair or low set three times because of my 'paranoia' for three cards to a broadway straight on the table.
Will come back to the other two later, Joe.
lars
I have been playing poker for 34 years. I tried online poker at Paradise. After three months and 2200 dollars gone, I am sitting here absolutely thunder-struck. I have never seen so many suckouts in live play. In one week I held 9 AKsuited, seven of those nine times I hit two of the suit on the flop. I never made a flush. Nor did I drag the pot with any of those nine hands. I am not a mathematician, but in real play I expect to hit 35 percent of them at least. Maybe my math is wrong. I have played cautiously, not throwing money in unless I believed I had a very good chance of dragging the chips. It didn't matter. Suckout after suckout. The worst players staying in with the worst hands would eke out the winner on the river. No one has to believe me. I win playing poker live. I have supported myself playing poker for 8 years now. Not enough to drive fancy cars or live in huge homes, but enough that I don't have to punch a clock nor worry about my bank-roll being depleted any time soon. I hope that soon, someone will bust these crooks and their rigged software. But even when they do, who will they have busted? No one knows.
John,
Good players go on extended loosing streaks every now and then. I am very sorry for your loss. I was wondering what limit you were playing at.
Last night, I had a hand in the low limit game where I picked up KK I raised and got 5 callers. (typical LL so far and I also seek out the tables with a high percentage of players seeing the flop.)
I get a Flop of K Q 6
Someone bets in front of me on the flop and I raise and get two other callers. Three callers total on the flop.
Turn card is an A.
Board is now K Q 6 A.
Three cards to a broadway out there. Dont like that. It gets checked around to me and I bet assuming that I still have the best hand...one of the fish in the pond swims away and I am left with two callers...no check raise..phew!
River card is a 6 (woo hoo!)
Board is now K Q 6 A 6
Person bets out in front of me, middle position calls and I raise. Person who bet out reraises..Middle position calls, I reraise..etc..
I am thinking as I throw in that last bet that maybe it was a slowplayed AA or at the very worst, its 66 and the quad theroists were right this time :-).
I show my K's full and others muck. I drag the pot. I ask the other players what they had..silence.
I request the hand history.
One had 76..(the one who was raising me) and the other had Q-4 suited..no flush. Just 3rd pair!?!?!
This example is pretty much the same as the poster above except I won instead of the suckout artists. The other two players were terrible. One called all of those raises on the river with just 3nd pair. The other made all of those raises with just trip 6's. I was expecting that one held a straight and one held a lower full than me. You see terrible plays like this all of the time at very low limits. I have had players go three bets with me on the river when they don't even hold a pair and I hold the absolute nuts.
I am wondering if you are playing too high of limit for your bankroll. I have a friend who is a very good player and he plays 10-20 on PP. He has had a $3400 swing during a prolonged loosing streak. He has since gotten that money back plus intrest. He only started playing again after I showed him a couple of my checks.
Loosing streaks happen. I have been very fortunate on PP as I havent had one last for more than a day, but I have had one that lasted a couple weeks in live play, it was NOT fun. You truly begin to doubt your abillities to make any money at the game when you run badly for that long. It always changes though. I have heard some great players mention running bad for months. I believe if that ever happens to me that I will probably quit the game. (nah, that will never happen :)
Once again, I am sorry for your loss. I would really like to know what limit you were playing on PP. I would suggest switching to the VERY lowest limit and play solid poker for a while to get your confidence back. I am sure if you have made your living for 8 years playing poker that you will eventually get that $2200 back if you stick with it! There are just too many bad players on there for you not to!
Best regards,
Joe
A well thought out post, I've had similar experiences myself, people going to 7th in stud with small pair or worse - I've taken lots of pots where some guy has been drawing to flush or straight without making it and then calling my bet at the river showing high card A, even high card Queen once.
Illustrating that god looks after fools is this story.
I was in one situation where I had 2J in the hole and a 2 door card - I bring it in and get 3 callers. forth street gives me another deuce, two of the callers get nada and the third has a two card straight on the board - I feel lucky and slowplay it ( totally ridiculous play - very very wrong ), fifth street gives the guy to my immediate left a 4 pairing his door card, one gets nothing and the two straight is now a three straight, I catch nothing. The pair of 4 comes out betting and I knew I was facing trip 4s -, straight draw calls, third guy folds, kicking myself I reraise hoping to show strength and scare the trip 4s, the two others call, sixth street provides no relief for anyone, trip 4s bet,straight draw calls, I raise trip 4s calls,and straight draw calls. So now I know I have them both scared but I need to fill up on the river to win, my cards were very live, none of them had showed up on the board so the odds were very good for making full house. The river comes and provides me with another J making it a full house. Trip 4s bets, straight draw calls, I raise, trip 4s calls and straight draw calls. That tells me trip 4s hasn't boated, he's a tough player and raises when he thinks he's best. I show them the boat and trip 4s shows his trips, he hadn't filled up, straight draw mucks - I win.
This story shows the kinds of idiot plays we make - mine was very bad, I should never had slowplayed in that situation - letting them both take free cards in that situation is very dangerous and with trip 2s it's usually fatal. I was real lucky to take the pot. The right play would have been to make a full bet which would have chased off the guy with the fours. If the straight draw had chased me that would have been okay since it's a bad mistake to chase fourth street trips.
The trip4s probably put me on trip 2s but he should have been very wary when I reraise his trips - his hand was also slightly dead, his cards showing other places on the board.
The straight draw (3card straight by this time )guy should never have been in when he saw two guys, both with paired door cards raising each other.He needed two perfect cards to straight and even if he made it he ran the risk of boats or quads.
As things turned out the two guys got rattled and started loosing, I felt myself getting cocky and logged off shortly after to keep from playing too loose.
Hey blue eyes,
I got exactly the same (2x)2, followed by a 2 the other day. I bet out, STILL got two callers. They went to the river with me, both had two pairs, one on 5th str, one at the end (KK or QQ up) and both deserved to lose. (I emailed the hand to myself, but I forget which now). Why was I betting, without 222 or AA22? Are they crazy? YES.
I won with only the 222xxxx, no boat needed.
Mark
Nice : )
Let me tell you a real life "bad beat win" story. I drew Jd10d9d, me and three others call the bring in. Next I get 7c, the other guys catch nothing, I bet, one player stays. Next card was a 7d, the other guy cathes a club and looks like he's on a flush draw - I bet, the other guy calls.Next card to fall my way is the 8d - straight flush - i check since the guy didn't have anything scary on the board and might bolt if i bet. On the river he cathes a pair card, I bet and he calls. I had a straight flush and got less than i usually catch with pairs ;-)
Here's just a sidenote:
You all suck!
now no wait a minute, lets put it in a way that online wont be taken wrong
You all suck! ;-) j-k
There's a difference online, remove the faces and the names and the smiles and flinches, grunts groans and mucking out of turn and you have a vastly different game.
Also, YOU as a player are different as well, the ballgame may be on only 3 feet away, an instant messenger program can be chirping away and you are holding a coversation, WHILE playing, the focus itself is different.
Live you are physically AT the table forcing you to focus, this is NOT so online, how many players here popped on for 30 minutes while wife got ready to go to a movie or whatever? Is this great preperation to goto war or what??
Second cosider WHO is playing online, while of course a few knowledgeable players. a few who cant play where they are located, and probably a number who love to play dont care about odds and got chased out of the LL games at their local casino by being berated by other more "knowledgeable" opponents.
Compound this with an additional few hands per hour, your swings SHOULD be drastically larger. As for a rigged site, that is just frustration and would be horribly BAD business. If even ONE site got busted for rigged software the entire industry would pay dearly in loss of faith.
Collusion is an entirely different story altogether, but as for rigged software, think about it a moment, what would it cost if they got caught?? MUCH more than it is worth.
Just my two cents, and ya didnt even ask ;-)
There is a simple solution to this discussion and problem. Just play at another site ( Planet, Highlands or wharever) and see if you think the players and site behave like the site you are on now.
My record for missed Nut flush (4 flush on flop) is 11 in a row in live play. Has to happen to someone sometimes.
I'm still withholding judgement. After the first 12 hours of play at O/8 the 45-1 shots 6 of them stopped happening to me.
after playing all these years i just cant do it!!!!!
So you've played winning poker for 114 years or whatever yet you're losing at one particular game because you can't adapt your play EVEN THOUGH YOU KNOW FOR SURE WHAT THE WINNING PLAY IS. You must have spent all those years in low limit games with complete morons because good players in ANY game would start crushing you after watching your play for a couple of hours. Aloha....Goatboy
I know what you mean about not wanting to let go of that starting stake and 5/10 looking like Bill Gates type money. I wonder if it is because we are looking at an amount of money fluuctuating and not a stack of chips that makes the money look differently psychologicly.
You have touched on a problem that many players have as as Andrew says above. That KK is a damn pretty hand. You KNOW it is the best before the flop. An ace flops. You think to yourself..okay..that guy has an A-rag suited or maybe just an A-rag. He knows I raised preflop. Dammit, if I had A-rag suited in this spot and someone raised preflop, I would at least consider laying it down especially if the preflop raiser re-raised me....therefore HE should CONSIDER laying it down if I raise his ass..I raise..I AM GOING TO WIN WITH THESE KINGS...I am going to make him lay down that crap...dammit why can't I win with these damn kings!..I have been folding trash for about an hour now just to get the stupid things...It was the best hand before the flop..dammit..dammit..dammit..he called my raise.
later in the hand..
I better bet the turn too..so he will be sure that I have an ace with a better kicker! I will make him lay it down with my agression...Dammit, I know he will lay it down now...dammit..he called..maybe a king will come on the river....
later in the hand...
Blank comes on the river...well, the guy must have an ace..I better check..fish checks..Fish shows you A-rag and takes it down.
All of this time, you were thinking that the fish thinks on the same level you do. HE DOES NOT! All that is going thru the fishes mind is
THIS!
OOOOHHHH pretty..I flopped a pair of aces..pretty neato!...I might finally get a little of my money back on this hand...I have been having such bad luck here....maybe this paradise poker thing is rigged or something...some donuts would be good right now...oh..I have to call again..ohh...donuts...yay..I won..I can buy more donuts..why is that guy yelling at me in the chat window..oh well..how could I call with what?..I had an ace-four..hey, I could have made a straight with that hand..one of those neat little straights...what do they call them..bicycle tires or something??....oh yeah...I better take another bite of my donut..damn I am a good poker player, I really am....I am going to call on the next hand too, folding is really dumb..you can win with anything in this game..especially a ace..I hope I get an ace..maybe I could win again....damn this donut is good...maybe next hand I could try some really cool poker stuff and bluff...oh wait, I could get a flush with this hand..J-4 and they are both hearts..wow!..my luck is really starting to change at this table...oh man..licking this chocolate donut frosting off my fingers is great....oh this is good..and lookie there is one heart out there...and I have a pair of fours too...I can get a flush..wow..anyone who would throw this hand away would be really dumb...man, I am a good poker player...I should probably raise to show them that I am good...etc..etc..etc..
Regards,
Joe
Excellent post Joe. I understand that the secret to winning at holdem is getting inside your opponents head and knowing what he is thinking but how do you keep from getting hungry?
Just for those who feel, like dredmahawkus, that math isn't important, let's look at some very simple math.
AKs vs. A4o wins 75% of the time.
AKs vs. 93s wins 65% of the time.
Notice that these percentages are a long ways from the 90% that dredmahawkus claims. It's no wonder you fellas don't understand why you are losing, you can't even understand basic card probabilities.
As far as swings go, my SD online is 17 BB/hr, which means that a $340 swing in 5/10 wouldn't be an unusual occurance. In real live play, experts with high expectation have SDs around 10 BB/hr, which means that $200 swings in 5/10 aren't unusual.
- Andrew
I never said math wasnt important! All I said was you dont need all your numbers and statistics to figure it out! I know you have to go on and prove how stupid i am, pulling a number out of my head for the pure sake of only making a point. If it makes you feel better to try and demean as many people as you can because you have every statistic right in front of you then so be it. There's no need to blow something out of proportion when in general i say something is about 9 out of 10 and you correct me with its only 75%
The problem is that the only way you will ever prove your allegations is by making a mathematical arguement. Your gut feel just isn't going to convince many people.
thanks so much for the one liner insult response.
You're welcome.
I called the hand because I was fed up with the wierd statistics. I was in a discussion with someone else. .
I didn't call because .
Oh, I see. Thanks for making that clear.
- Andrew
People like you, Prock, should learn or understand that open forums are there to learn and exchange eachother thoughts about the subjects held in it. I do not think it is correct to insult other people posting or degrade it contents in a unfounded way. It also makes it annoying for following the threads for those who are interested in the true context of the postings by filling up the threads with unwanted insults and the like.
As far if Tensor or you are the best/worst players is not important. But if you feel threatend that others might be better than you and thus your try to insult them by your insecureness you prove already the quality you posess.
Good luck and be nice (some people call it mature)
Bravo, well said, darlin'
I do not think it is correct to insult other people posting or degrade it contents in a unfounded way.
Me either, that's why I insult and degrade people in a well founded way. I'm so glad we agree on this point.
- Andrew
OK - I decided to take a look at a few 100 winning hand results for tables I have played at.
Granted it's only 400 hands and pretty meaningless at this point - however, it is interesting.
Here are the winning percentages for hands held by the winner
High Card - 0.9%The only thing this tells me so far is that you need better cards then a typical 25-30% flop table (surprise)1 pair - 17% (about 9% lower then expected)
2 pair - 31% (right on)
3 of a kind 14% (4% higher then a tight table)
str8 - 10% (right on)
Flush - 15% (5% higher)
Full House - 10% (slightly higher)
Quad - 1% (right on)
Flushs were the big gainer. 58% of the time it was a nut flush to win. 83% of the time you needed at least a K flush to win.
I don't believe any of your bookmaking statistics. ypu are a pro criminal.
I truly feel sorry for you man :)
Well as expected, anyone that dares post anything negative about Paradise is treated as the anti-christ, so save the run of the mill insults and at least hit me with an original thought.
I have a theory..
I own an online poker room. I have 20 bots and have built rigged software that favors these bots an inordinate amount of the time. I can't count the money as fast as these bots are throwing it into my coffers. I am rich. I am richer than the President of Costa Rica. I am the POKER GOD FROM HELL~
Oh no!! Could it be?? Hell yesssssssssss, duh!
Nice theory. I like it. I've got a lot of theories too. The real question is, what does one do after one has formulated a theory?
- Andrew
Attempt to findout who owns the establishment. This is, however, impossible or physically dangerous.Only honest guys like Mason Malmuth and David Sklansky get to know this information. Oh, Chuck Weinstock gets to recieve his payroll money , too.
Actually, who owns Paradise Poker is public knowledge. So what do we do next?
- Anderw
I'm up $1.5K at Paradise never venturing beyond 2-4. I personally know 5 other people who are all big (3K plus) long-term winners at Paradise at a variety of limits. I have a theory. Could it be that we win because we're all pretty good and that PP losers lose because they're not?
Nah, seems pretty out-there.
Chris
The brick & morter Casino`s have a built in edge on black jack over the long run.
I think there are computer people who could make bots do the same in online poker. In this day and age some of these computer experts can do almost any thing. I don`t play on line poker, so I don`t care. Just my thoughts.
Give me the money
Coyote
Coyote,
Not only is it possible, it is a reality. You can build bots do manipulate any computer program built. I don't think the owners of Paradise are some illiterate fat costa ricans with huge cigars, drinking espresso bye the pool of their sun-splashed villas. I think the owners could very well be some computer geeks that got rich early in life writing programs, then realized what could be done with their bot-sucking-from-their-program talent and created online poker rooms with the bots working 24-7 kicking money into into their accounts almost faster than they can launder it. Ok ok...Rich computer geeks with huge cigars, drinking espresso bye the pool of their sun-splashed villas.
And what possible exposure do these unknown owners have in regards to either criminal prosecution or civil damages by those robbed. You got it..the golden goose is getting goose eggs zero..zip liability. God, I wish I had thought of it.
They do have a built in edge. It's called "The Rake".
And how much does the Paradise rake amount to? Well....
Let's put the rake at $2 a hand for 5-10 and above, $1 a hand for 3-6, 2-4 and 1/2, and 50c a hand for 50-1. Those are approximate, but they should give us a fair measure.
Currently on Paradise tables are operating at about 65 hands per hour. There are 16 $2 tables, 19 $1 tables and 7 50 cent tables (I'm counting the tables with 6 players or more). So, adding it all up, PP is raking, JUST FROM THE RING GAME HOLDEM TABLES, $3542.50 per hour. If they keep this number of games up for 24 hours, they rake 24 times that equals
EIGHTY FIVE GRAND PER DAY. JUST FROM THE HOLDEM TABLES.
These are pretty rough and ready figures, but it's gotta be over 50 grand a day. If anyone can do a better estimate, I'd like to see it.
Chris
...and still that is not enough for them apparently
At $50g per day, that's only $18m per year.
Coca-Cola makes more than that.
If just four people share, it's only $4.5m each.
Now I see why they need to scratch an extra buck or two.
Could be that you collude and part of a team.
Could be that you collude and are part of a team.
Someone mentioned a while back to look out for names that have 2 caps in them like GetLost. I had one in my game the other day and he (she? it?) called a raise needing 2 gutshots or the like to fill a low str8. Guess what happened? When I asked GetLost (I don't remember the actual name used) a question there was no response. A few more communications. No response. I can't prove anything of course. Someone else in the game mentioned that you will get all kinds of calls out there. Maybe. Maybe not. I am just a little suspicious that's all.
Yeah, they'd definitely flag the names to make them easier for players to spot and forget to program them to respond to inquiries with a simple: "I don't want to talk now."
Yeah, they'd definitely flag the names to make them easier for players to spot and forget to program them to respond to inquiries with a simple: "I don't want to talk now."
LOL.
I was playing a couple of weeks ago at a low-limit table and someone was complaining that no one was chatting, and wondering if everyone was a bot. (As a side note - if you want to chat, go to IRC, Paradise chat is kinda sucky, what's the point?) Anyway, I'd just joined the game, and he/she said, "How's it going?" or words to that effect, so I typed, "I'm fine, thanks. How are you?" Then, every time that person said something to me, I typed, "I'm fine, thanks. How are you?"
Don't know if that was +EV, but it sure was fun!
.
For the same reasons casinos don't hire mechanics to deal cold decks to shills: more than one person would know about it, making the profits subject to easy blackmail, and players would experience a better time at the casino next door.
BTW, why do we have to come up with original arguments if you guys keep rehashing the same old ones?
Dear Mr. Algae,
Am only expressing some rational explanatory theories. If you have addressed the same subject previously, please feel free to not respond.
:)
desire wrote:
Am only expressing some rational explanatory theories.
and
I am richer than the President of Costa Rica. I am the POKER GOD FROM HELL~
In the words of the immortal Stan Lee, "'nuff said!"
uh oh, your responded to another post...hehehe, just can't help yourself, can ya
desire
I recommend you stay sober when typing your next thread young lady .
I stopped drinking the day i woke up with a hangover and a man like you lying on my arm in bed next to me. By the way, I chewed off my arm rather than wake him up.
Babe, you are the last one that was raised right.
Do the Bots ever loose a hand that they play. If so where does that money go. If the bots are winning an inordinate amount of the time wouldn't someone notice.
It's so simple, I'm afraid to say it. Change the bots names and addy's from time to time?
It's your theory, what does name changes have to do with his question? Don't avoid a legitamite question.
Do the bots ever lose a hand? Think about the consequences of the programming it would take to keep a bot from either never losing a hand or sometimes winning and losing. When do you have a bot go to the river and lose? How can the program know what type on action the "real" players will do on each card?
Maybe the bots get their hand at the end of the game, so it doesn't matter what the humans have done to get to that point?
Maybe that's why I am always rivered?
Yes. That's it. It's not totally because I am a crap player.
Don't play there. I hardly do. Pretty simple. Is it possible to program bots? I guess it's possible. We have no proof either way. You threw out a theory that may be viable. So what? People used to think the earth was the center of the universe. It was as good a theory as any, if no math or science is available to provide the truth. If all the naysayers are trying to convict Paradise in this forum, they are wasting their time if they plan on doing it without evidence. True, you might be able to assign Paradise a motive (make more money). However, "Many people experience horrendous bad beats and lose money at Paradise, therefore it must be crooked", is NOT evidence. In a court of law, presenting that as evidence would be laughed at. I am glad to see most sensible people laugh at it in this court of public opinion at well.
So then play there...good luck..hope you chew a hole in gator's bankroll before the bots do.
I already said I rarely play on there. At the limits I like to play at (15-30 and 20-40) there are looser, easier games all over the internet. I am not going to play on there and bang my head against the wall. For virtually every game at Paradise, there is a better game at another site. You just have to pick your spots. That's what plenty of the bigger players already know. They aren't going to waste their time on here debating whether there is something fishy occurring in a 1-2 Paradise game, when they are making enough money in a year at a different site to buy a Porsche Boxster ever year.
lol! Yeah, you caught me!
.
I've posted bankroll guidelines a few times. You can search the archives for them. Basically, you should probably stick with the 300 BB bankroll. You can probably skimp a bit at the lower limits, but once you get to 5/10 I wouldn't recommend it.
- Andrew
To SmoothB>>>
After the Pokerspot fiasco I'am suprised to see you asking how much more you need to donate to the cyperthieves in third world countries, let alone giving your coveted credit card number to the thirsty hackers.
Woldn't play that is looser than a hotshot gambler is used to seeing also have this effect?
it what you would see when 20% more people are seeing the river!
Most people that read books or play live are not prepared to see 3 and 4 people holding on to anything above a Queen at all costs.
Of course you will see better hands if 1/2 the table is playing at the end.
If 3 to 4 people see the river everytime, then the game degenerates into a crap shoot anyway. It is a no foldem holdem game. These games cannot be beat on a consistant basis, unless the player has an edge. Knowing what the distribution is going to be is the most likely documented edge on internet poker fraud. It happens on a daily basis.
"Knowing what the distribution is going to be is the most likely documented edge on internet poker fraud"
My first thought is your first sentence. The reason it catchs my mind is a post by Joe Cheezer about 1/2 way down the page stating why people THINK LL games are unbeatable for the reason you suggest.
People have to stop raising early because it does not make people fold, all it does is make the no foldem guys actually play correctly compared to the odds.
That second sentence just goes in and comes out without the "idea" really catching in my coffeeless brain.
what?
TO ANDREW
I hope I can meet you at the table sometime..
your logic is truly outthere man!
a game cant be beat if 3 4 people constantly see the river?? ARE YOU NUTS?? this is exactly what you want if you are a good player. Play top hands and punish those who want to see river no matter the cost.
here is the situation:
I am first to act and call with 33 preflop. 6 players see flop. flop comes J Q 3 rainbow. I bet and get 4 callers. turn comes 6 I bet again. only this time I get raised by first player to my left and 2 players call his raise. Now what should I do? should I reraise or just call??? Icalled and river came K. I checked being afraid that the 2 callers might have made their straight or that the raiser infact had better trips. everyone checked and I took it down. This was at 3/6 poker.com and I didnt know the raisers style.
Was I very wrong not to raise turn??
any comments?
why did you even call 33 pre-flop?
your first mistake was calling with a 33.
After that you raise like there is no tomorrow.
you have a 19% chance of hitting a full boat after the turn (29% after the flop).
reraise reraise reraise like a maniac!
If you flop trips and lose and DON'T lose a lot of money you played the hand wrong.
I agree with the other answers that you shouldnt limp in with 33 UTG. When you hit the flop, i think i would have gone for a check-raise, because with this kind of flop and this many callers you can be almost certain that someone will bet the flop.
When you get raised on the turn, ofcourse you re-raise. The raiser could easily have a strong queen or two pair. On the river you should bet out again.
I would like to add that when you limp in with a low pocket pair you are going for a set. This limping can only be correct because of the great implied odds. So when you hit your set, you must play it aggresively to extract the maximum out of it.
Once you've called utg with a small pair(incorrect) the only thing you're in for is to hit a set, period. Once you've flopped a set I probably would have gone for a checkraise due to the mutiway pot, someones bound to bet. When you get raised on the turn, you gotta love it and make it 3 bets to make it incorrect for the straight draws to continue! The river is the only time you should be leary of not having the best hand. I would still fire. Not knowing the raisers style? You've got the best hand, play it for what its worth.
The turn raiser is far more likely to have QJ or worse than QQ, JJ or 66. But even if it was just over 50% for the turn raiser to have the best hand, the two cold callers -- assuming you can count on them for 2-3 more bets between them -- make reraising mandatory.
psst....Want to make a $100,000 in your life time? Never play a pair less than sixs UTG in a full game. Don't tell anyone.
You want a good strategy mix with more bet outs on the flop. It is more likely you will get three bets in on the flop with a bet as oppossed to a check raise.
On the turn you should bet it out like a winner, If you are raised and can by raising drive out ANY draws you should even if there is a chance you must improve to win. With no raise before the flop it's unlikely you face pocket jacks or queens so,you have the best hand make everyone pay.
On the river you lose two bets if you run into 9T or maybe AT but, betting you pickup a lot of single bets from kings,queens and two pair. I like betting the river.
MS Sunhine
I'll have to read it but I think hewas just the first person to do anything but check
Hello all,
I'm sure as I post this people will attack me. As seems to be the norm for optimists around here but...here goes. I have gooten a encouraging e-mail from pokerspot. I have been corasponding with them often as I would like to see the site grom...and get my money. About 10k. Pokerspot has been (at least for me) very helpful in providing infromation and calling meeven to keep me updated. so the latest is.
they have switched processors to the reputable Firecash. They plan to be operational with them in a week or two. (If anyone tried t login on tue they know the server was down..it was because they were testing the new processor.) they also plan to be online with another bank by the end of march. And a third by the end of april. So that this fiasco will not happen again (thank god!)
They have also filed the lawsuit againt netpro..but as we know netpro is somewhat semi bankrupt at this moment so they are going to put their assests in escrow. so the older money will be protected.
And finally they are working on revamping the cashout system to include auto e-mails of deposits and cashouts.
As I said this sounds like encouraging news. I feel like they really want this site to work and are taking all the steps to do so. The next few weeks will be the telling factors. I was beginning to lose faith that we would ever see our money but I think if we hang on...(not like were going anywhere.lol) it will all turn out in the end.
I can testify what Backlash says to be true. At least the communication given by Pokerspot part. Time will tell if the information is the truth. I believe it is. I've even got a few calls from their VP Matt Winfrey. I don't think he'd be calling just to impress me with a long distance phone call. My BR is only about half of Backlashes, not bad though for only a $200 investment at PS. I would hate to lose that kind of return on my money. If anyone would like the latest correspondance from PS just reply here with your email address.
poker spot had been useing firecash a while . my latest e mail from them says they are going to use SUREFIRE COMMERCE .and expet to be switched over late this week or next .we will see . my ? to all the guys who are in big time is are you going to stay with this outfit or flee after you cash out .
Fred...It "was" the softest 20-40 full ring game I've seen in a long time. That "was" until all the games were short handed or heads up (all that is left now are all the winning players). There is rarely a game at all anymore and I have to admit most of those left are better than me. However, if the site survives (and I hope it does) and the full ring games start up again you can be sure I'll be there.
I couldn't agree more with holdumdude. This site when all things are said and done will be a great place for good players. I really think that they just got screwed and were not prepared for this happening.
I am only owed 2200.But if I get paid and their money problems get straightened out I will still play there.
all theses threads above me are paid and sponsered shills, more like used car-salesman drivel>>>
Where is your regular cardroom Mr Suckout? Or is it Ms or Mrs Suckout? I travel all over the country to play poker, especially in the easiest games. Considering the statement you just made, sounds like any game you're in would be a good one! There's no room in quality columns like this for people like you...lol
I always welcome suckers like you into my domain, especially the ones who rely on false hope>><< like expecting money from shysters who'll eventually go the chpt.11 route or what other route they use in third world countries, like hiding your stack along with the other suckers like you in some third world bankfault.
Oh by the way I play in the Bay area clubs(Northern CA.) Bring a good bankroll with you cuz sure going to need it, make a good livin off suckers like you running your mouth off. Been playin at Bay 101 lately with the rest of my fellow sharks in the aquarium, later sucker.
First of all this forum should not be used to lash out like you are doing! We both know who's been running his mouth off. I use this forum to stay in contact with players like myself that are interested in improving their play and possibly helping others. I don't agree with everything or every ones opinion. But there's a fine line between being optimistic, pessimistic and down right out of line and rude like I believe you are being. For some reason you seem to have the need to be critical. Do you lash out at the players at the tables in the same manner? You say you're a pro? Your words are not that of one. I even have something for people like you. For the betterment of the game, I think it's time you took a closer look at yourself and get honest.
i am not a paid employee of poker spot .A.O.
I've been playing a bit at Paradise and like the sofware but periodically my screen blurs, not the whole screen but the icons with the players names and thier cards. Usually if I click minimize and then maximize the screen again the problem takes care of itself, but not always. Once or twice I've had to fold a hand because I simply can't see the cards (this is obviously even more of a problem in stud than hold 'em.) Does anyone know what causes this and what I can do to fix it. Since I've never seen anotehr post about it, I'm sure that the problem is with my computer, not PP.
Thanks
usally when I open MS WORD or some other resource gobbeling program. What you can do is make sure you go to OPTIONS / OPTIMIZE and click on that buttom.
Also make sure you don't have any memory eater open like WORD.
Since I've never seen anotehr post about it, I'm sure that the problem is with my computer, not PP.
I have had this problem with specific applications running. I'm running Win98 on a PIII-600 with 256MB of RAM, and I still have similar problems to what you've described when running the Montego CD player and pretty much any other application at the same time as the Paradise client. If I only run the CD player and the client, everything is generally cool, however, as the previous poster pointed out, running Word at the same time can also cause problems.
Another thing that has happened to me twice (thankfully in folding situations) is that I've requested a hand history and clicked the confirmation box at the same time my turn to act occurred. Something about both those events happening (nearly) simultaneously causes the client window to activate and come to the foreground, but no buttons appear on the screen! At this point, all I can do is time out, apologize on chat, and wait for the betting round to complete, at which point, the "I'm back" button will appear and I can rejoin the game. Anyone else see this happen?
ya poisson that happened to me and i had AKo ARGHHHHHH the flop came K72 rainbow :o( I didnt saw the winners card but i prolly would have won!
Oh well
Charlie
This has happened to me, too. I go to "View lobby", then return to the table and it clears up so that I can finish the hand. Then I close all other applications and it doesn't happen anymore.
It has happened to me as well. I was running a webpage with an imbedded shockwave application in the background. As soon as I killed the web page, it went back to normal. I think paradise uses some shared video routines in windows and when another program is using them too, you have problems. Kill the other applications you are running and Paradise Poker will almost always start functioning normally again.
Thanks for the advice. Fortunately I know more about poker than computers. I did know though that there had to be some corrollary to the Fundamental Theorem of Poker that said regardless of how you'd play your cards if you could see your opponent's and vice versa that if you can't see any cards at all, you're screwed.
:)
I've experienced the same problem many times, and it is usually after I've had large programs load into and dump out of memory several times. I usually finish out the hand, log off Paradise, and re-boot, so that I'm assured that my RAM is as empty as it's going to be.
This forum has been used, for the most part, to debate the integrity of Paradise Poker. The discussions are usually very passionate, and often deteriorate into virtual fist fighting and rock throwing. That’s okay, and great fun, but it hasn’t brought us any closer to the truth.
Crunching numbers from incomplete data is futile, and I entertain little hope this will change. It may be, if Paradise is manipulating the cards, that the only way we could ever know is from a whistle-blower. Wake up Call claims to be a disgruntled former Paradise employee, and claims the games are, indeed, rigged. (See full text below) Obviously, if this guy is telling the truth, the issue is resolved, end of story. This is huge. I am surprised, however, that it hasn’t generated more discussion.
Recalling the Aslan scam a few months ago, I was impressed with the information 2+2 posters could glean from scrutinizing his posts. Powerful and insightful arguments were posted, and it was all very interesting. My hope is that Wake up Call’s post can be subjected to the same kind of examination.
I’m not a trained document examiner. Who is? But let me offer some of my impressions.
1. The author appears to struggle with the English language. It could be English is not his first language.
2. The overall tone of the piece is rather low keyed and matter-of-fact, not what I would expect from a hoax.
3. In the third sentence, the author uses the phrase “write code”. This is casual programmer jargon, esoteric, and indicates the author is intimate with, well, programming. Had I written the post, I would have said something like “write software”.
4. In the sixth line, the author uses the phrase “building code”. See number 3 above.
5. Also, in the sixth line, and in line seven, the author uses “index” and “indexed”, respectively. I don’t know, but this sounds like more programmer talk.
6. I am very curious about the fifth line: “However, this is as i understood from a colleague writer being changed in one of their latest revisions, to be less noticable.” Firstly, why would a hoaxster use the disclaimer: “as I understood from a colleague writer”? That phrase suggests the author has some intellectual integrity. Why would he not just say he has first hand knowledge, and eliminate the need of the colleague writer. Secondly, the end of the sentence: “to be less noticable” is interesting. Paradise is concerned? Why would a hoaxster think Paradise is concerned? This sounds very real. If Paradise is rigging the deck, I think they would be concerned, given the raging debates on 2+2 and RGP.
7. The author states, basically, that rigging the game is a major ongoing part of Paradise’s market plan.
My conclusion is that Wake up Call’s post should not be dismissed so readily.
Tom D
Posted By: Wake up CALL Date: Monday, 26 February 2001, at 6:07 p.m. In Response To: Although interestingly (DaveMcG) Finally i think it is time for me to step out of the dark as a former paradise employee & programmer. They deal cards randomly on average. The thing is we were asked to write code to slightly change the dealing for the shorter distribution of time to make more close situation amongst the players whilst keeping the long term average keeping up. This is why there are apearing more quads versus full houses and the like than seems to be normal in the short run. However, this is as i understood from a colleague writer being changed in one of their latest revisions, to be less noticable. Secondly, I do not know if the project has been finished at paradise but we were building code for sensing the hands being played by the new accounts and compare them to a index of profitable starting hands. If the account plays indexed to be tight it will give out more good starting hands with bad flop types to favor the gamblers to extract maximum rake. I have left Paradise for several other bad experience of the management overthere. You dont want to meet this guys in a dark alley.
This is not something they would need a whole room of people to work on. It's maintenance!
It's bunk.
I would need A LOT more they a few words to convince me.
What he is talking about would really really slow down access time. I work in Java putting Host to web applications online and he is pulling our leg.
Plus - there are not more quads compared to full boats.
I've seen 4 in the last 600 winning hands on tables I've played at. That is actually LESS then normal.
Um. This is a joke, too, right?
1. The author appears to struggle with the English language. It could be English is not his first language.
LOL! Because EVERYone knows any programmer worth his/her salt is not a native speaker of English! I _strongly_ suspect the guy I bought my last lotto ticket from at the Kwik-E-Mart was Paradise's former CTO.
2. The overall tone of the piece is rather low keyed and matter-of-fact, not what I would expect from a hoax.
I wouldn't call defiance of statistical probability low-keyed, but let's continue.
3. In the third sentence, the author uses the phrase “write code”. This is casual programmer jargon, esoteric, and indicates the author is intimate with, well, programming. Had I written the post, I would have said something like “write software”.
4. In the sixth line, the author uses the phrase “building code”. See number 3 above.
5. Also, in the sixth line, and in line seven, the author uses “index” and “indexed”, respectively. I don’t know, but this sounds like more programmer talk.
Sorry, but not once did the author ever use the term "hax0r"...this throws his/her status as a programmer in doubt.
BTW, "building code" has also seen use in the community of housing inspectors and contractors, and "index" and "indexed" seem to appear frequently in mutual fund circles...
6. I am very curious about the fifth line: “However, this is as i understood from a colleague writer being changed in one of their latest revisions, to be less noticable.” Firstly, why would a hoaxster use the disclaimer: “as I understood from a colleague writer”?
To make the bogus post more (low-key + matter-of-fact = believable)?
That phrase suggests the author has some intellectual integrity.
Yes. He's implicated another imaginary person in a fabricated story.
Why would he not just say he has first hand knowledge, and eliminate the need of the colleague writer.
Uh, he's trying to make the story more believable (trying in vain, but trying, nonetheless).
Secondly, the end of the sentence: “to be less noticable” is interesting. Paradise is concerned? Why would a hoaxster think Paradise is concerned? This sounds very real. If Paradise is rigging the deck, I think they would be concerned, given the raging debates on 2+2 and RGP.
Are the raging debates taking place in another forum on this website? I see a lot of wild accusations, most (well, ok, all) of which have no evidence to back them up, and a lot of people pointing out that lack of evidence.
7. The author states, basically, that rigging the game is a major ongoing part of Paradise’s market plan.
My conclusion is that Wake up Call’s post should not be dismissed so readily.
Count one vote for me in favor of dismissal. Next case.
Mr Pond Scum, aka Algae aka *yawn* aka Chris Alger Why do you feel the need to badger, berate and be a general pain in the @ss to every one that questions the legitimacy of online poker? Tom's post was very well thought out and very well articulated and yet you feel the need to rebutt it with general nonsense about the foreigner that sold you your lottery tickets. Keep buying them, pal. At least with the lottery you're increasing your chances of keeping your money as opposed to playing Paradise.
verbage. I thought *yawn*'s response was right on track.
Mr Pond Scum, aka Algae aka *yawn* aka Chris Alger Why do you feel the need to badger, berate and be a general pain in the @ss to every one that questions the legitimacy of online poker?
First off, I'm not Chris Alger (and I don't play him on tv, either). However, if that's another conspiracy you'd like to add to the list, feel free! WATP.
Tom's post was very well thought out and very well articulated and yet you feel the need to rebutt it with general nonsense about the foreigner that sold you your lottery tickets.
Odd. I thought it said, "If it looks like a programmer, and talks like a programmer, then it must be a programmer."
Keep buying them, pal. At least with the lottery you're increasing your chances of keeping your money as opposed to playing Paradise.
That's possible, as I tend to play too passively, and I'm sure it's costing me a bundle - live and learn - but the point is, I am generally able to cite either poor luck, poor play, or a general lack of discipline when I've lost, and not monsters under the bed.
Why are more people not able to entertain that notion? That's a far more relevant question than, "Was that alleged programmer post real?"
:o)
Damn, Apu is wasting his talent serving sqishees?
Adam.
Damn, Apu is wasting his talent serving sqishees?
Ironically, in the episode about Apu's arranged marriage, it is revealed that Apu has a Master's Degree in Computer Science!
The plot thickens...
If Wiggum is in charge of security, I'm pulling my funds out right now!
Amen brother!!! That was a funny quip about Wiggum.
Bzzt. Apu's collegiate background was revealed in "Much Apu About Nothing" (3F20). There was no such episode entitled "the episode about Apu's arranged marriage."
Goddamn novices. Go watch NASCAR or something.
Bzzt. Apu's collegiate background was revealed in "Much Apu About Nothing" (3F20). There was no such episode entitled "the episode about Apu's arranged marriage."
...and thus the lack of quotation marks, as I obviously don't have the episode names (oooh - and the seasons!) memorized. Ok, ok, go to your carefully archived, chronoligically arranged video library and find note the quotation marks "The Two Mrs. Nahasapeemapetilons". Pay particular attention to the bachelor auction at the beginning.
Goddamn novices. Go watch NASCAR or something.
Goddamn pedants - say, you wouldn't happen to work in a comic store, wouldja? ;-)
I couldn't really assess the odds that the original post was for real. It's just too hard to tell. Like Fox Moulder, I want to believe but....
I damn sure don't expect anything more believable than Wake Up Call to jump up. I'll content myself with my onw stat work.
If this programmer wants to tell us that the game is rigged then why doesnt he actually post some revealing "code" that other programmers could verify. Instead he just says like all the other loosers - The game is rigged doh....code...bla bla bla. its obviously bs. end of discussion for now.
that will be talking about actually beating others at online and not the conspiracy theories!???
anyone anyone?
just a thought!
yah, get a head start and wait..
Rod M wrote:
> Anybody interested in a new Forum that will be talking about actually beating others at online and not the conspiracy theories!???
LOL. This comes from the person who probably has contributed more than anyone else to the discussion...
Makes you wonder, doesnt it?
-- John
What are you talking about. I think it would be great to NOT talk about online cheating by any off shore book.
There is nothing anyone can prove! I think it would be interesting to talk about "The GAME" not the mechanism.
but - no interest so no big deal.
my estimate for gross revenues per day on PP is 85,000...with little or no operating expenses...why would they cheat?...why do they rake as high as they do? ans. no real competition and tradition...
this is the point that most sceptics miss.. they can make much more money running a honest game then they could a crooked one.
Derek
probebly have less then 5 employees and probebly only 2 or 3.
It's a pretty low maintenance operation
However, they pay the 5,5% fee on credit cards. Fro good players, its not big deal for them coz we dont buy in quite often but for the fish, they pay it more often
Rod M,
Are you kidding? I think it's one guy with a laptop plugged into the cigarette lighter in his '67 Pinto.
I wouldn't be surprised if they had 50 employees. Somebody has to count all the money.
Tom D
Derek wrote:
> this is the point that most sceptics miss.. they can make much more money running a honest game then they could a crooked one.
OK, we'll take this very slow. What you are saying here is
1. Paradise is making a gigant fortune.
2. This shows that running an honest game will make more money than a crooked one.
LOL. What is the link between point 1 and 2? Absolutely none.
In fact, it is the other way around:
If poor players are handicapped and getting overall better cards than the good ones, the number of players active will go up and rake increase.
Besides, Charlie made a very good point in his comment: Paradise pays the cc fee. Now this they can afford obviously, beacuse they have the rake. But suppose new cc buy-ins were reduced to a minimum while rake was the same? Lots of net profit for Paradise. Now this is exactly what they would achieve by handicapping the players.
-- John
PS. I made 11,000 $ on Paradise in February. I still don't think their dealing algorithm have been random at all times.
Scalf,
I think your number is probably close to reality for rake.
I think that the 5% or 5.5% credit card payback is more than made up for (much more) by them having the interest on the money they are holding.
I think that they have many more than 2-3 people as some have suggested. Add together a support department, 24-7; a development group to make good software and keep improving it to keep ahead of the competition (although they have been lucky so far that their competition sucks); plus accounting people; executive [someone is making some good decisions there, and they deserve to have a corner office and be paid well to keep making those decisions] plus someone in marketing, to choose where to advertise, etc.
But at these nets, they can have a lot of people and continue to do a first rate job while their feeble competition either shoots themselves in the foot with horrible software or stops paying, and they will continue to mint $$.
Mark
You very well could be right.
However, lets say a support staff of 9, 3 per 8 hour shifts (which is twice as many as AOL, LOL)
The development group is probebly contracted out.
Accounting and exec are probebly the same person (may be 2 people)
marketing (probebly the exec) but we'll say 1 more.
That brings us to about 12.
OK - so I was wrong :-)
Rod,
If they contracted out the tech department, they'd be called Planet Poker, or Pokerspot, or ...
I would bet that the tech dept. sits right next door to the execs office like they do in my 50 person company. And I bet there are a bunch of them....plus people who know a lot about Internet security, and people who know a lot about analysing poker hands to look for cheats.
It's no big deal, but a lot of people think: "Oh, I'll do it all myself, I'll buy some poker software, I'll get a cheap server, I'll hire a poker expert on a part time basis, I'll make $$ off the float..." these are the sites which (a) go broke and screw the patrons. and (b) go down a lot and (c) get hacked.
No big surprise to me.
Mark
fd
At the local casino where they spread a live Omaha/8 game my lows get counterfeited a lot more than they do at Paradise. This is either because there is a problem with the dealers at the casino or Paradise has analyzed my Omaha/8 play and they see that I'm a donator at this game and want to keep me around.
As far as hold'em at Paradise, I think Andrew and SmoothB have it right. If you play too loose in the hold'em games and tilt even occasionally you will lose big time.
This really irritates me yesterday...
I join a full table and post my blinds. well when i was the button, 6 players in a row "SIT OUT" and the game got broke...
Can Paradise do anything to prevent this?
Charlie
Perhaps they didn't like you! What should Paradise do, make them play?
Sounds like bad luck.
Happens and I think that if a person misses 10 hands he gets booted off the table not 3 BB's .
I have read the posts below about Pokerspot and a bunch of people (idiots, IMO) are talking about returning to Pokerspot because the games were so soft. After what has happned there, why would you go back? There is an on-line site (not one of the top two but a fairly major one) that has some of the softest games I have seen and I have always recieved my pay out promptly. I wont mention the site because I dont want to be accused of being a shill for them. If you put in a bit of work though, you can find the site and the soft games. P.T. Barnum said a sucker was born every minute, and he was right. Anyone who goes back to Pokerspot is a moron, in my humble opinion.
I agree...
jazzman
People may go back for the same reasons they went back to planet and highlands after their software was cracked.When the site is in trouble and they end up still doing whats right for the players -it shows that the site has integrity.Pokerspot has not shown this yet,but they may and if so I will give them another chance.
i took out another 300 for PP last night in the first 2 hours i was dealt QQ 3 times flopped 2 sets, dealt KK 3 times flopped a set, AA once no set, played 99 on BB flopped set, AKs and AJs 5 times times flopping 3 nut flush draws made 1... AQo twice both times flopping Q,rag,rag. total for 2 hours of play -$70 and those were all the hands i played. Maybe my luck is just rediculous.
Maybe u go too far with your hands :o(
and probably unlucky...
part of the game
usually its flop a set or top 2 and then runner runner gutshot gutshot ....or runner runner suit suit, or flop top 2 and get called with lowest pair hitting on river heres an example this is how it is every hand.
This email was computer generated and emailed to dredmahawkus@yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------- Game #56196260 - $1/$2 Hold'em - 2001/03/02-02:58:59 (CST) Table "HitiKabara" (real money) -- Seat 8 is the button Seat 1: Billionaire ($167.50 in chips) Seat 2: Surgeon ($35 in chips) Seat 3: dredmahawkus ($68.25 in chips) Seat 4: jay5280 ($98 in chips) Seat 5: robbie 1 ($18.75 in chips) Seat 6: Killer Bee ($17 in chips) Seat 7: badoo ($142.50 in chips) Seat 8: enantiomer ($125.50 in chips) Seat 9: pinkcloud ($81.50 in chips) Seat 10: ESPN1 ($33.50 in chips) pinkcloud: Post Small Blind ($0.50) ESPN1 : Post Big Blind ($1) Dealing... Dealt to dredmahawkus [ Ks ] Dealt to dredmahawkus [ Kc ] Surgeon said, "nice - but chilly" Billionaire: Fold Killer Bee said, "haven't seen you since T-giving" Surgeon : Call ($1) dredmahawkus: Raise ($2) jay5280 : Fold robbie 1: Fold Killer Bee: Fold badoo : Fold enantiomer: Fold pinkcloud: Raise ($2.50) ESPN1 : Fold Surgeon : Call ($2) dredmahawkus: Raise ($2) pinkcloud: Call ($1) Surgeon : Call ($1) *** FLOP *** : [ Tc Ah 6c ] pinkcloud: Check Surgeon : Check dredmahawkus: Bet ($1) pinkcloud: Call ($1) Surgeon : Call ($1) *** TURN *** : [ Tc Ah 6c ] [ 9s ] pinkcloud: Check Surgeon : Check dredmahawkus: Bet ($2) pinkcloud: Call ($2) Surgeon : Raise ($4) dredmahawkus: Call ($2) pinkcloud: Call ($2) *** RIVER *** : [ Tc Ah 6c 9s ] [ 8s ] pinkcloud: Bet ($2) Surgeon : Call ($2) dredmahawkus: Fold *** SUMMARY *** Pot: $31 | Rake: $1 Board: [ Tc Ah 6c 9s 8s ] Billionaire didn't bet (folded) Surgeon lost $11 (showed hand) [ 6d 9d ] (two pair, nines and sixes) dredmahawkus lost $9 (folded) [ Ks Kc ] (a pair of kings) jay5280 didn't bet (folded) robbie 1 didn't bet (folded) Killer Bee didn't bet (folded) badoo didn't bet (folded) enantiomer didn't bet (folded) pinkcloud bet $11, collected $31, net +$20 (showed hand) [ Jc Qh ] (a straight, eight to queen) ESPN1 lost $1 (folded)
Honestly dred, i really wonder why you call the turn raise. U were playin a 2 outers.
You gotta learn to throw away these big preflop monster...
I know what it is, its my biggest problem too...
Charlie
that was a hand later on in the night ....once i started losing so bad i decided to start recording ones i lost. turn was a tilt call, but i came to my senses and folded
I would have folded after seeing the flop. Somebody has an Ace (normally) OR 2 clubs for the famous Paradise flush draw.
Personally I look for reasons to fold rather then reason to play at these levels.
As for pinkshot. not an uncommon play by him/her. Weird the she raised pre-flop but after that I'm not surprised at all.
Why on earth did you bet the turn?
- Andrew
because in low limit PP if they had an Ace i would have known about it earlier in the hand....And the person pink something was raising every hand with nothing as you see.
I disagree with you on that. At this limit many people will hold onto that Ax and just call all the way to the river because they are trying to get the max in the pot. Bt raising you early in the hand they will eliminate all those people holding bottom and middle pair who would normally(at this limit) call one bet but not 2.
regards,
jazzman
and now it's biting me in the arse. You'll come back to earth sooner or later, enjoy it.
I've had NOTHING to play since Saturday. squat in 14 hours. The blinds are the most exciting for me because I can actually make a decision (fold).
BUT - enjoy the moment .
This isn't that big of a deal, but could you experts out there confirm that if the BB leaves at the conclusion of the hand and before posting his small blind there should be a dead small and one big blind. If this isn't true just disregard the following rubbish.
I just copied the message I sent to techsupport at Paradise.
"I had a correspondence with you folks earlier about a couple of situations where I noticed the big blind skipped over me. I said I would email you when it occured again.
I've included the hand history #'s of the hand where I was directly to the left of the big blind ( meaning next hand I should have the big blind) and the very next hand where I should have been the big blind but I was the small blind instead.
The one thing I noticed is the big blind on the first hand who should have been the small blind on the next hand left the table. So I think your software has a bug. There should have been a dead small blind and a single big blind (me).
First hand, directly to the left of the big blind: 56348706
Second Hand, should now be big blind:
56348999
Thanks,
Jamie Collins"
Its been a bug in Paradise since they started online. To take advantage of this bug you would wait before leaving a game (on your big blind) and see if the previous big blind leaves/times out/or goes all-in and loses. If that happens you will only post a small blind for the next full round.
This bug exists in Paradise's 1 table tourneys too.
re
I'm not sure what your question is? Paradise has known about this bug from day 1. I guess they can't seem to fix it.
You're right guys, not the most interesting post.
I just wanted to see if this had been discussed before. Since this bug exists I'm wondering what others do. I brought it to their attention because someone may be able to take advantage of it and I can't guarantee I'll profit from it in the short run.
Other than that not terribly interesting.
It's not a bug, it's the Forward Moving Button rule -- based on the idea that it is more fair for someone to skip his big blind than it is for someone to have the button two hands in a row.
Ok Natedogg, I respect your views on loose online games and the way you should play them, but I can't resist to tell you about my experience with JJ in BB ("WHAT?? I LOSE WITH AA IN BB IN THESE WILD GAMES!" I can hear you shout ;-))
Anyway, 6 limpers, I hold black Jacks in BB. The number doesn't really matter, I will ALWAYS raise JJ if it's not raised to me. All call my raise.
Flop: 3-3-4 rainbow.
I bet, three callers.
Turn card: 5.
I bet, two callers.
River card: 10, no three-flush out there, I bet, one caller.
Take it down, Mr. Vegas, $80 at $3/6 with "unimproved" JJ.
Seriously natedogg, you don't know what you're missing out on. :-)
lars
Beside increasing the pot dramatically (3.5BBs), what else do you think my raise change in a situation like this?
Will people be more or less inclined to chase overcards? The popular belief is, the more money in the pot, the more chasing.
However, I think that in a pot like this, seven-handed, people could easily treat an unraised pot with a 3-3-4 rainbow flop as a crapshoot contest of overcards.
What do the experts reckon then? :-)
lars
IMO I would say at least 80% of the players at paradise low limits take absolutely no notice at all of the size of the pot,and hence,will chase regardless.
> "I hold black Jacks in BB. The number doesn't really matter, I will ALWAYS raise JJ if it's not raised to me"
This statement violates everything poker strategy tries to teach. Not to mention JJ is a sucker hand if not played carefully. You may or may not be a long term winner in poker, I don't know, but I'll bet if we broke it down, JJ loses you a lot of money.
Huh?
JJ loses money when it raises in an unraised pot from the BB? I don't think that's right.
- Andrew
In Lars case it does, I'm sure.
With 6 limpers, what is the point of raising in this spot. To thin the field? That is not going to happen, in fact, I would be shocked if more than one limper folded. To bet for value? With 6 players in, you might not have the best hand, utg or so might have limped in with AA or KK or such hoping for a check-raise, any two overcards are about even money to you. You have no position on or after the flop.
JJ is (or can be) a very profitable hand. However, if you always raise JJ in an unraised pot, I am sure that is not the only error you make with JJ.
Huh? To get anybody out - you've likely got the best hand right now, it might even improve to a set, for the cost of one more bet you get SIX more in the pot - please nobody fold..
d.
Against six loose players JJ will almost always need improvement to win. Of course you don't wan't people out of this pot, but raising for value is ridiculous too. You are about 8:1 to flop the set. You get 6:1 if you raise. You can justify the raise by counting on your implied odds, but you are not flopping to the nuts with a set of J's. Instead you drive a percent edge (if in fact you are actually ahead) to build a monster pot, that makes it correct for you and your opponents to chase many flops. Why not take the flop cheaply (not raise)and then trap when the J hits and fold when you miss, overcards hit, and there's action.
Gator,
I think you need to hit the books. JJ is the 4th best hand in hold'em. It will win more than it's fair share in this situation.
- Andrew
"JJ is the 4th best hand in hold'em"
Despite the ton of literature on how to play poker, this is why there are still losers.
Ok Gator,
I give up. You win.
- Andrew
What do I win?
You win the pot I guess. It just won't be as big as the pot I win when I raise from the BB with JJ.
;)
- Andrew
I think you underestimate just how often pocket jacks will stand up on it's own. Firstly if there's six limpers all playing mediocore hands, then you've probably got six or seven overcards in the hands of these players (reducing the number that will hit the board). Additionally by raising from the blind the more observant of these fish (this is especially true on PP where the low limit players are in general better than the live counterparts) will peg you for AA, KK so if you bet out with an Ace high flop it's hard for Ax suck-out dogs to call. Finally the JJ is a pretty easy hand to get away from in the low limits when overcards flop so it shouldn't cost you many more bets if raise..
d.
"if you bet out with an Ace high flop it's hard for Ax suck-out dogs to call."
I wouldn't bank on it though,i'd say half of the 'more observant ones' wouldn't call,they'd raise!
JJ is not a losing hand, but it is not a raising hand in this spot. You all are correct that in this spot your JJ has a good chance of being the best hand right now. So raising with the best hand increases your long term winnings right? Maybe, but it sure increase your short term variance, which is your biggest enemy especially in low limit.
Even if your JJ is the best right now, any hand like AK, AQ, KQ, is about even money to you. A hand like AJ, KJ, QJ is behind, but they kill one of your outs, and it is quite safe to say, that any of these hands will stick around on the flop if it comes up rags. Your JJ is going to battle the turn and river. If someone up front is happened to slowplay a AA KK or QQ looking for a raise you are in trouble.
The bottom line: If you are ahead, you are a marginal favorite at best, if you are behind you are a dominated dog. You have the worst position throughout the hand. Getting 6:1 on a 8:1 draw will just increase your swings as you are counting on implied odds, and 6 handed, trip jacks make me sweat. You have the chance to see the flop for free, and when you make your set, you are more likely to get paid off big time for not raising, especially when the flop comes up with a J and overcards, it's checkraise city.
I think you will win as much (or more) in the long run without raising as you will with raising. I am sure that your bankroll will be much more stable. In wild games, this is more important than fractional edges.
Getting 6:1 on a 8:1 draw...
Are we talking about JJ or 22?
- Andrew
HPFAP discusses this JJ dilemma starting on p. 25. Basically what it says is this. It is usually best to raise with JJ in a tight game and Call with JJ in a loose game. This honestly goes against my gut feelings on playing JJ.
You either want many opponents taking the flop with you or very few. According to HPFAP the worst case scenario is when 3-4 players take the flop with you. I have not ran a TTH sim yet but I will.
So, I guess the answer to this question is that it depends on the texture of the game. HPFAP also states that if the pot has been raised and reraised before you, you should fold, unless you have already opened the pot, then you should call for pot odds.
Gator says it makes you sweat if you flop a set of jacks against a field of 6 opponents..not me my friend. What else could you possibly hope for? Gator also says that you are getting Getting 6:1 on a 8:1 draw, that is not true either because of the possibility for JJ to win unimproved..which it does a lot of the time. This is also a hand that I will consider doing some pot size manipulation with, once again considering the texture of the table you are playing at. I had this exact hand come up on PP at a 2-4 table and I did flop a set with it a week or so ago. I have been unable to find the hand history, so this is it basically from memory.
The button raised, I was in the BB with JJ and I just called this time, because the table was very very loose. I took the flop with 5 opponents.
The flop was K J 4
The turn was an A
The river paired the 4
It turned out the Button had KJ sooted, the SB had AK and slowplayed it..the there were two other callers all the way to the river and I cant remember what they had. Had I raised preflop on this particular hand, I believe it would have resulted in less action for my set. It was one heck of a pot and a very memorable hand for me, KJ and AK never slowed down I was stuck in the middle and I liked it! I also have got to love the KJ's raise preflop.
Had I re-raised, it may have scared one or both of them away or at least slowed them down along with some of my other action. I deliberated long and hard before I just called. I believe it was the proper decision for THIS table.
JJ early is a very tricky hand to play from up front. I appreciate the discussion and different view points on it. I always cringe when I get JJ or 10-10 and to a lesser extent QQ in any position. I am always more inclined to raise when I get a nice starter. They are tough hands to play...hell, all hands are tough to play what am I saying!
Best regards,
Joe
my experience with JJ in BB ("WHAT?? I LOSE WITH AA IN BB IN THESE WILD GAMES!" I can hear you shout ;-))
I think this comment reveals everything that is misunderstood about what I said regarding raising from the blinds with big pairs. For one, you are disregarding position completely, and AA is much much much better than JJ. So much better. Amazingly better. Ten times better. A big mistake that new players often make is to play any big pair the same as AA. There is a WORLD of difference. With AA you raise every time from the blinds (in the kind of game we're talking about). YOU CANNOT FLOP AN OVERCARD! AA is so much better than JJ it's not even funny. I actually started laughing when I read your insinuation that they are even close to each other in value.
Specifically, I said I don't raise when there are a lot of limpers and I have QQ or lower and sometimes even KK or lower.
The arguments that have gone back and forth on both sides have merit. However, I think the players arguing for the raise have less appreciation for position. That's just my opinion.
Personally, when I see a flop with JJ facing 6 players and I'm first to act, I want to throw up, regardless of the flop.
If I have an overpair, then there's LOTS of small connectors that may have hit. If there are overcards, then I'm in a world of hurt. Even when the flop is all babies I can easily be pushed off the hand since I'm out of position.
Let's take a very extreme example. You flop 347 and bet. It's raised, and reraised back to you. An easy fold in this case but if you had been on the button, you might have saved even that one small bet. Raising from the blind has cost you money now, for the subtle reason that you had to follow it up with a bet on the flop. You had to act first before you had information that clearly showed you were behind.
If the flop comes overcards what do you do? Bet? Now if you bet and get raised, you have to release almost every time. Do you check and fold? If you are going to check and fold, why not see the flop for free? If you can flop an overpair to a T or 9, you will win a nice little pot. Even then you're vulnerable to an overcard falling on a later street.
If you get it heads up on the flop and the turn comes an A, what do you bet. Bet? What if he raises? The board is AT33. AT is a very reasonable hand for him to have. You are put to the decision. In fact, he may not have AT but he may be good enough to realize how dangerous that board looks to an obvious overpair.
If you had position none of these problems would be facing you and you could play your marginal JJ with a lot more information and play properly.
If I had the JJ in late position I raise automatically. But from the blinds, you had better be VERY good at playing those jacks post-flop from first position or you should not raise.
The fact of the matter is, JJ has very little chance of winning on the end against six other limpers, and if you have worst position, you have very little chance of playing the hand correctly, even if it DOES hold up. You can't maximize your profit when it's good and you will probably fail to minimize your losses when it's not.
In my mind, playing JJ out of position is just like playing any other medium pair. JJ is too often rated as a big pair. It's a medium pair in every way. With JJ and TT you can make the nut straight but otherwise I consider JJ thru 77 to be pretty much the same hand when facing six limpers in a pot. No set, see me sweat.
natedogg
natedogg,
You are thinking a lot about the game, which is good. Much of what you write is good and thoughtfull. But you are overthinking a bit. In particular, you seem to be looking for indians behind every tree. Sure you might get re-raised ona 347 flop. Sure one, two, or three overcards might flop. Sure, you aren't a favorite to take down the pot. But all of that doesn't mean you shouldn't raise.
Get down to the bare nitty gritty. Use the numbers as your guide. That's where an experts edge is. It's pretty clear that you aren't using the numbers as your guide by you comparison of AA and JJ. While you might feel ten times better when you hold AA, you're only going to make about 3-4 times as much money as when you hold JJ. AA and JJ are a distance apart, but they *play* very similarly. The only real difference is that you can make nut flushes with AA, and you will always have at least top pair on the flop.
- Anndrew
I may indeed be overthinking it a bit, and looking for indians behind every tree, as you say.
However, there's no question that with JJ against 6 other players, you will almost always end up in a situation where you do not know where you are. With AA that is less likely to happen. If you had JJ with position, it's less likely to happen. If you don't know where you are in a hand, then you are much more likely to make mistakes. That's the bottom line with my attitude towards medium and big pairs in the blinds.
Also, I agree with Gator completely about a blanket statement like "JJ is the fourth best hand in holdem". This statement totally disregards position, number of players, and game limit and style.
In the 3-6 Paradise Poker games, JJ is certainly NOT the fourth best hand to be holding and certainly not in the big blind. JJ is a great hand but we're talking about a game with five to eight limpers here, with players who will play any A and any two broadway cards from any position. Your JJ is not so hot from the big blind at that point.
natedogg
natedogg,
By 4th best, I mean the 4th most profitable in the hands of an expert player. This doesn't mean that the hand will be easy to play. But really, JJ isn't that hard to play, unless you don't know how to fold. As far as position goes, if you want position and you are up front, then all you have to do is check. You might not make as much money, but you'll get to act after any bettor.
- Andrew
Natedogg gets it. Andrew is lost.
"As far as position goes, if you want position and you are up front, then all you have to do is check. You might not make as much money, but you'll get to act after any bettor"
And what does a bet after you check mean? Power? Initiative since you showed weakness? Draw, free card play?
Position is very important. I would in fact raise most times with JJ on the button with 6 limpers, because I can use my position to buy free cards if I hit a draw type of flop, save some bets if an overcard flops and I'm not sure where I'm at, and maximize the value of my hand when I hit. Up front and it the blinds I am flat calling that JJ.
TJ Cloutier refers to JJ in his book as a small pair, and I think this thread is way over-values JJ.
The major problem with JJ (especially with 6 limpers) is that with this hand you are only a tiny favorite over the hands you are beating, but a huge dog to the hands beating you. Keep in mind, that with the blind money in, two overcards to JJ is playing correctly to call you. According to the fundamental theory, you do not make money when your opponents play correctly.
EXPERIMENT: In this deal, which would you rather hold? KQs on the button, or JJ in the BB, with 6 limpers. I'd like to see someone run a test on this scenario with TTH. Use expert players as the JJ and KQs and loose players as the limpers. I suspect the KQs will make as much or more than the JJ. KQs is by no means a spectacular hand, goes to show how good JJ is.
hi i started to play in pp since last November. Played 5/10 holdem made about 5000 profit. Cashed out 3000 at the end of Jan. I thought i am ready for 10/20. move up lost 2000 in a month. Got pissed took a break about 3 weeks reading books. went back to 5/10 win cashed out another 1000, and now taking a break again not because i am not doing well in PP but because I figured I spent too much time playing instead of studying--I am a professional student who has a passion in poker. I only played couple of times in LV , AC and some indian casino in Oregon. I want to know where I am now. Am I ready to play 10-20 in live games? From my caculation I makes about 2BB an hour in 5/10 with 1SB SD in PP. In 10/20 do not have enough hour but I feel like I am being outplayed there... Is PP 10/20 harder than live game 10/20? Since I donot have much experience in live games I would like to know where I stand... Thanks, to all professionals out there...
Alexis, Would you mind telling me what your bankroll was when you started playing the 5-10?... I'm thinking about playing at another site and need to know how much I should start with. Playing 2-4, winning one BB blind an hour just doesn't sound very interesting to me.
Sure, I started with 400 but I was lucky I could build up my bankroll without any losing streak. I recommend at least 1000 or even 2000 to start with in 5/10..
$5/10 at Paradise is far softer than $10/20, but both limits are beatable IMHO. A player winning 2BBs at $5/10 will certainly not be a whipping boy at $10/20.
lars
I agree that anyone winning 2BB per hour at 5/10 (assuming the sample size is 200 hours or more) will not be (or should not be) a whipping boy at 10/20. But he will need to adjust his game. If you have the feeling that you are constantly being out played, then you probably are. If you cannot adjust, go back to the softer 5/10 and keep hitting the legit poker books (e.g., Sklansky and Malmuth)for awhile.
i have gotten banned from paradise...
not for colluding but for mentioning another poker site in their chat line...
Now, here is the deal... they have not just banned me but they have banned my entire household by not allowing my IP address or whatever it is to play.
so my question is
1. has anyone else experienced it?
2. How do I get arround this?? ( can always play from my friends account, but i cant use my computer)
what do I need to delete from my harddrive in order to make it so that they cant identify me..
please help me!!
This happende to me too!!! They said i am no longer welcome and they took my money and i can not log in from my computer. I wrote them email and they said i am lying about the fact and that i am colluding with criminals and the like. This is so wrong, i have spoken with my lawyer about it and he said there is nothing you can do about it. You accepted their agreements and they are based in some criminial country. This plus my money gone from pokerspot makes me feel realy bad about my online poker experience. And i thru with it.
I have a hard time believing this. No wait, that's not how I feel at all. Actually, I think you're a lying sack of shit. I can't remember the countless times other poker sites have come up in the general conversation at Paradise tables. Since I haven't been 'vanished', and none of my regular opponents have disappeared, I just can't credit your story at all.
PS Costa Rica is a criminal country? How so?
Jones
I am sorry to hear your rude comments. Maybe its nicer to use some more civilized way of responding to the forum board. I think it will be appreciated by others as well. Secondly, just mention at paradise something about another site and see if you are still happy you did it while you have money sitting in your account.
ok
i didnt mention the entire truth
i was banned for flooding their chatline... ok you got me..
but this doesnt change that they in know way suspected me of collusion.
infact i can even use my account just that I have to play from another location.
the thing that troubles me is that everyone using paradise poker from this Ip address or whatever is banned, not just me who made the awful action of flooding their chatline
"i was banned for flooding their chatline"
What is or how do you flood a chatline?
I'm sorry you were put out by my use of invective to display my disbelief at your obvious dissembling. Civilized enough?
I've mentioned other sites many times in chats at Paradise. I am still happy. I still have other peoples money (though I've begun to think of it as my own) in my account.
PS Again, why do you call Costa Rica a criminal
country?
Jones
Dump your current version of paradise. It is cookied to identify you. Use another ISP such as aol or earthlink. Done.
You may be banned, but I doubt that it is for the reason you give. My guess is that other sites are constantly being mentioned in their chat lines. Your post is especially doubtful since you are posting annonymously. Hopefully, Paradise will notice this post and comment on it.
Mason,
People talk about other sites, like "when you going to the Pokerspot tourney, Joe?" all the time. I do not know what these people are talking about. Disgruntled losers perhaps,
Mark
I have personally commented many many times about the interesting graphics at truepoker. I've mentioned pokerspot. I've mentioned planet poker. I can't recall how many times I've been in a discussion about other poker places. I've even said, "Hey, have any of you been to truepoker.com yet? Pretty cool graphics. I hope they go real money soon!"
Never have I had anyone ask me to please stop. So, from personal experience, I'd say you did somthing else.
-tens0r
What are the odds of hitting the highland jackpot?
Badbeat of AAAKK or better?
I don't know the odds but I do know as soon as the jackpot gets to 50,000 dollars, they are going to make 3 jackpots. A 10,000 dollar jackpot for any Aces Full beat, a $30,000 jackpot for Aces full of 10s, and 50,000 fot Aces full of kings beat. www.highlandsclub.com
I just won the $150.00 high hand for the day at 4knightspoker, with quad 3's. What amazed me about this win, was how excited it made me. I mean, when I found out I won, I could hardly sleep. So, while laying there trying to sleep, I examined why this $150.00 win excited me. Yet, whenever I end a session more then a $150.00 ahead, I'm never excited, or pumped. The reason why tho is, when I have a "winning" session at the table, even tho I call it "winning"/.......... I don't truly think of it as winning. I think of it as my wages, or pay, for studying diligently, working hard, improving my game. While the high hand payout seemed like they truly gave me something for nothing. LOL.....it's been at least 20 yrs since I have "gambled" playing a slot machine, or roulette, or the likes..but, after winning high hand yesterday, it showed me the same "rush" I used to get, hitting jackpots. Buckcp
Hi all I play 1/2 on paradise with a bank of 200 ie 200 bb When in a winning session at what point should i leave. Ie if up how much or down how much,how do i know when is a good time to leave. and is 200 enough bank for 1/2
celtic
As Sklansky so well put it, think of it as "one long game." If the game is favorable and you are playing well then it is not a good time to leave. Also, see Mason Malmuth's article "The Extremely Silly Subject of Money Management," in his book "Gambling Theory and Other Topucs."
You should leave when you no longer feel like playing. Sometimes you've won so much money, that you are no longer in a playing state of mind. When that occurs you should leave. My basic rule is that if leaving the table keeps floating through my mind, I leave. My desire to leave is distracting me from playing. You should also leave when the big fish are gone.
If you are losing, you should probably at least take a break after you've lost 30-40 BB. You might still be at a good game, but it's time to retreat and go over why you lost so much money. You have to make sure that you are still on your game.
For 1/2 limit, you'll probbably need 300-1000 as a bankroll IF you are a winning player. If you are a losing player...
- Andrew
good questions. im guessing when you say 200 bb you mean $400. yeah that seems like just enough to bankroll 1-2 there if youre a winner. if you cant beat the game then it doesnt really matter what your bankroll is.
as for stop wins i like to make mine $50 and then cash it out right away. i like to try and cash out $50 every night. as for stop losses, if im not tired and the games are good im willing to lose everything in my account. i usually only keep $100-$150 in my account though. so it's usually either win $50 or lose $150 for me.
Hi Mike my strategy is similar to yours. But i have a few questions.I also cash out daily What limit do you win 50 at. I found that once you loose 50 there is no coming back in the same session so i logoff and try again next day. i Tend to loose 50 logoff win 50 logoff. It just seems that if your loosing that day, then that is it you get bad beat after bad beat. I am a vey experienced winning live player. I understand that internet poker is very different.
celtic
ive played pretty much too much online poker at this point so im good at recognizing those tilt sensations as they come streaming up my spine (they come from the ass). so i like to ride out the losing streaks and have oftentimes come back to being ahead after being down to my last $20. i think it's a good discipline lesson to force yourself to play tight and aggressive even on a short stack in a losing session. im thinking of things in the long term, i want to be a truly great player 10 years from now. it's kinda like how phil jackson will sometimes not give the lakers a timeout but just make them play through a losing spell in a game. anyhow, im talking about the 1-2 games at paradise.
I PLAYED POKER ON LINE FOR THE FIRST TIME TODAY. THIS HELPED ME A LOT...
www.playwinningpoker.com/guide1/html
Well, this helps even more: http://www.playwinningpoker.com/guide1.html
is it true that the 20-40 paradise guy that goes by zxhzshsrm is really david sklansky?
Lol, I wouldn't be shocked since that guy seems to beat the game all the time. I think he is from Scarborough though and isn't David from Las Vegas?
Jeff
from what ive seen you can put whatever you want as your location. i have a friend who lives in austin but put his location as boston cause he thinks people from boston are dumb. haha.
I doubt it. Unless David is in the habit of cold calling raises with dominated hands. But this player is a winner, and a pretty good player too, outside of playing a little too loose.
- Andrew
Calling raises with potentially dominated hands is often correct.
David uses a very different nickname on Paradise. I haven't seen him much online lately.
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
Slovenia
Angelina:
How come your brother took down his, "Playing with the fishes" article?
He was accused of wanting to be a poker guru and hated it.
---
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World Since 1389!
Albania, Slovenia, Europe
http://www.fekali.com
Izmet pays attention to that monkey Wiedeman? This must be some kind of a joke.
That's a great article. It helped me refine my loose game play, and more importantly, got me thinking in new directions about other facets of HE. Hope Izmet gets it up soon (and I'm not talking about sheep).
Jones
I scanned that thread on rgp, and didn't actually have the impression that Tom was including Izmet in his complaints. Also, I would guess that Tom would have some genuine respect for Izmet's poker acumen. Finally, I hope Izmet won't let an offhanded comment of Mason's keep him away from here too long. I'm betting Mason actually likes and respects him too.
x
Back to Back at Paradise. No theories here, I'm just proud I got back to back quads. And there were three quads withing ten hands on this table...here they are...
Game #56673251 - $2/$4 Hold'em - 2001/03/03-23:27:41 (CST) Table "Malabar" (real money) -- Seat 2 is the button Seat 1: vicboy ($41 in chips) Seat 2: Jay7O ($53.50 in chips) Seat 3: butteboy ($100.50 in chips) Seat 4: Boiler ($39 in chips) Seat 5: sanehpal ($34 in chips) Seat 6: El Jefe ($99 in chips) Seat 7: IM1TOO ($38.50 in chips) Seat 9: david boies ($292 in chips) Seat 10: bjbat33 ($76.50 in chips) butteboy: Post Small Blind ($1) Boiler : Post Big Blind ($2) Dealing... Dealt to El Jefe [ As ] Dealt to El Jefe [ Ad ] sanehpal: Call ($2) El Jefe : Raise ($4) IM1TOO : Call ($4) david boies: Fold bjbat33 : Fold vicboy : Call ($4) Jay7O : Fold butteboy: Call ($3) Boiler : Fold sanehpal: Call ($2) *** FLOP *** : [ Qc Ah Th ] butteboy: Check sanehpal: Check El Jefe : Bet ($2) IM1TOO : Raise ($4) vicboy : Fold butteboy: Call ($4) sanehpal: Fold El Jefe : Raise ($4) IM1TOO : Raise ($4) butteboy: Call ($4) El Jefe : Call ($2) *** TURN *** : [ Qc Ah Th ] [ Ac ] butteboy: Check El Jefe : Check IM1TOO : Check *** RIVER *** : [ Qc Ah Th Ac ] [ Qd ] butteboy: Check El Jefe : Bet ($4) IM1TOO : Call ($4) butteboy: Call ($4) *** SUMMARY *** Pot: $56 | Rake: $2 Board: [ Qc Ah Th Ac Qd ] vicboy lost $4 (folded) Jay7O didn't bet (folded) butteboy lost $16 [ Kd 9c ] (two pair, aces and queens) Boiler lost $2 (folded) sanehpal lost $4 (folded) El Jefe bet $16, collected $56, net +$40 (showed hand) [ As Ad ] (four of a kind, aces) IM1TOO lost $16 [ Kh 9h ] (two pair, aces and queens) KilgoreTrout didn't bet david boies didn't bet (folded) bjbat33 didn't bet (folded)
Game #56673560 - $2/$4 Hold'em - 2001/03/03-23:29:09 (CST) Table "Malabar" (real money) -- Seat 3 is the button Seat 1: vicboy ($37 in chips) Seat 2: Jay7O ($53.50 in chips) Seat 3: butteboy ($84.50 in chips) Seat 4: Boiler ($37 in chips) Seat 6: El Jefe ($139 in chips) Seat 7: IM1TOO ($22.50 in chips) Seat 9: david boies ($292 in chips) Seat 10: bjbat33 ($76.50 in chips) Boiler : Post Small Blind ($1) El Jefe : Post Big Blind ($2) Dealing... Dealt to El Jefe [ 3h ] Dealt to El Jefe [ 3d ] IM1TOO : Call ($2) david boies: Call ($2) bjbat33 : Fold vicboy : Fold Jay7O : Call ($2) butteboy: Fold Boiler : Fold El Jefe : Check *** FLOP *** : [ Jh 3c Ad ] El Jefe : Bet ($2) IM1TOO : Fold david boies: Fold Jay7O : Call ($2) *** TURN *** : [ Jh 3c Ad ] [ 3s ] El Jefe : Check Jay7O : Check *** RIVER *** : [ Jh 3c Ad 3s ] [ Ac ] El Jefe : Bet ($4) Jay7O : Fold *** SUMMARY *** Pot: $13 | Rake: $0 Board: [ Jh 3c Ad 3s Ac ] vicboy didn't bet (folded) Jay7O lost $4 (folded) butteboy didn't bet (folded) Boiler lost $1 (folded) El Jefe bet $8, collected $17, net +$9 (showed hand) [ 3h 3d ] (four of a kind, threes) IM1TOO lost $2 (folded) KilgoreTrout didn't bet david boies lost $2 (folded) bjbat33 didn't bet (folded)
And then a few hands later......
Game #56675173 - $2/$4 Hold'em - 2001/03/03-23:36:56 (CST) Table "Malabar" (real money) -- Seat 4 is the button Seat 1: vicboy ($19 in chips) Seat 2: Jay7O ($51.50 in chips) Seat 3: butteboy ($83.50 in chips) Seat 4: Boiler ($15 in chips) Seat 5: panama ($80 in chips) Seat 6: El Jefe ($126 in chips) Seat 7: IM1TOO ($27.50 in chips) Seat 9: tpoberembt ($98 in chips) Seat 10: bjbat33 ($106.50 in chips) El Jefe : Post Small Blind ($1) IM1TOO : Post Big Blind ($2) Dealt to El Jefe [ Qh ] Dealt to El Jefe [ Th ] tpoberembt: Fold bjbat33 : Call ($2) vicboy : Fold Jay7O : Call ($2) butteboy: Fold Boiler : Call ($2) El Jefe : Call ($1) IM1TOO : Check *** FLOP *** : [ 3s 5c 9c ] El Jefe : Check IM1TOO : Check bjbat33 : Check Jay7O : Check Boiler : Bet ($2) El Jefe : Call ($2) IM1TOO : Fold bjbat33 : Fold Jay7O : Call ($2) *** TURN *** : [ 3s 5c 9c ] [ 6c ] El Jefe : Check Jay7O : Check Boiler : Bet ($4) El Jefe : Fold Jay7O : Call ($4) *** RIVER *** : [ 3s 5c 9c 6c ] [ 9s ] Jay7O : Check Boiler : Bet ($4) Jay7O : Call ($4) *** SUMMARY *** Pot: $31 | Rake: $1 Board: [ 3s 5c 9c 6c 9s ] vicboy didn't bet (folded) Jay7O lost $12 [ 6s Ah ] (two pair, nines and sixes) butteboy didn't bet (folded) Boiler bet $12, collected $31, net +$19 (showed hand) [ 9d 9h ] (four of a kind, nines) panama didn't bet El Jefe lost $4 (folded) [ Qh Th ] (a pair of nines) IM1TOO lost $2 (folded) randal04 didn't bet tpoberembt didn't bet (folded) bjbat33 lost $2 (folded)
If someone could only explain why butteboy and im1too were in that 1st hand to the river, it might go along way towards defining the "new poker".
No comment on the quads, after seeing 7 in one half hour on a .5-1 table, 3 of them mine, nothing would suprise me.
i just now thinking of testing the waters of net poker and one of the items i've noticed on these posts was 1-2 folks mentioning playing two hands at once...how is this done? both hands on sone site or playing on two different sites.
a curious mind wants to know...and
At Paradise Poker (I don't know how the situation is at other poker sites), you can play two tables at the same time.
You won't get to play two hands at the same table, no. :-)
lars
you can play 2 tables at paradise.If you are cold though the money goes!!! I have had winning days there but instead of the BR going slowly up its going down. with a $400 BR i know i would rather play 2 1-2 tables then a single 2-4 table.....if one seat is real cold you move real quick.
Gentlemen, As of yet, for various reasons, I have not ventured into this brave new poker world.... but one of the main ones is the shaky legal atmosphere surrounding all Internet gambling.
My question, for you regulars (not reserved to Messurs. Caro et Badger, though they write about Internet poker play)- is it LEGAL to not only play, but COLLECT? My understanding was that it's still unsure...
Are you aware of a legal prescedent that makes the collecting of your winnings worry-free? How exactly are you claiming/gonna claim any income from this (IRS issues?)
If you'd prefer NOT to post here, and wanna send to my hotmail email instead, feel free....
I assume you live in the US, so it depends on what state you live in. I think it is "illegal" in most states, depending on local gaming laws. However, I think the law was passed in 1997 to make online gambling illegal, but no one has ever gotten in trouble in the 4 years.
I personally think it to be personal ethics issue instead. For instance, my state is happy to let me gamble my entire paycheck on the lottery and scratch off tickets, but frowns upon me playing some poker. I could drive a couple miles to Biloxi and do this legally. The idea that my latititude and longitude governs wheteher it is legal or not for me to play poker is ridiculous.
I recently read an article that said that the US leaning toward new laws to regulate rather than prohibit online gaming.
Neither Caro nor Badger post here.
space. You money is offshore and is staying off shore. The inbly illegle thing you are doing is when you are cashing in you are not claiming income tax.
THAT is the problem the feds have. The internet is an international service, thus, there is nothing the fed can do.
So far every law has been struck down that makes gambling over the net illegle.
Not paying the IRS is where you can get into trouble. You can claim it on your tax's though as gambling gains/loss's.
sheesh, how the hell do you know if you're doing it if you can't spell it..??
I suppose that you believe that employees of the DOJ can be illegal bookies, too. Your previous posts indicate this. You have no credibility Mr.M.
That's just not true. No laws have been "struck down," for there is clearly no constitutional problem. Briefly, the problem the feds have with internet poker is twofold: (1) the law as it currently exists probably doesn't apply to poker. Some other "gambling" sites are probably covered under federal gambling prohibitions, and as a result, some gambling site purveyors have been indicted. No trials yet, to my knowledge; (2) enforcement is a big problem, at least with respect to individual players. It's not worth the effort to try to make a fuzzy law stick against somebody who gambles away 10K at online poker. If the feds try to do anything with online poker, it will be going after the sites themselves and their american affiliates.
I wouldn't take much comfort in the suggestion that if something is "international" you get immunity. Try ordering cocaine over the phone to Mexico and I'll come visit you in prison.
And, as everyone knows, you have to declare your winnings as income.
Suggest you take a look at the Washington Post report at the following link:
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/intgambling/stories/opinion072598.htm
In general the 1961 Federal interstate wire gambling act does not specifically apply to internet gambling. If a federal law is ambiguous any doubt concerning the laws application is construed in favor of the defendant. Fierce debate exists; however, the law probably does not apply to internet poker??
Several states have attempted, Minnesota and Missouri etal, to extend their laws to cover internet gambling. Apparently, Minnesota has been successful as some internet gambling sites say they do not accept accounts from Minnesota.
If gambling is illegal in your jurisdiction--if placing a bet is illegal--it could be illegal to play internet poker. Most of us would argue that we are playing in Costa Rica. The definitive decisions have not been made yet.
I don't know of any individual players who have been arrested or charged.
The states don't really want to go after individuals...that is too much trouble.
eltoro
Hi, we've had the same debate here in my country, where we have the same kinda laws.
I've also follwed the debate in the US.
Basically the law states that you cannot place a bet over an interstate line. When you place a bet on the internet you are connected through an interstate line.
Your bet is placed electronically, but it's placed over those insterstate lines never the less.
That's the reason there are no US based online gambling sites.
My last couple attempts to log in to Pokerspot were met with 'critical error - code 8400' or some such thing. Are they out of operation?
not at 12pm west coast time 200+ wrer signed up for touny
Are you serious? 200 dreamers with no hope of a payoff? Now that's a group in denial.
Very top of the ad "Play against real people not robots"
I'm sure this could easily be defended by Highland as a metaphor yada yada yada, but I think it's an angle shot, taking advantage of the rampant paranoia common with online players.
Sounds like paranoia to me.
Tom D
It was a bad idea by the marketing department. Doyle Brunson www.highlandsclub.com
doyle, i really liked your book according to doyle.any chance another book with tales of your poker life since then. you must have a lot of great stories to tell after moving to las vegas.paul thanks
It was quite a pleasant surprise to see your post this morning, Doyle! Thanks...(and SS will always be the Bible)
Dear Doyle,
Don't be going off on your marketing staff too quickly there. They probably hit the nail on the head. If bots being used at Paradise is ever discovered, boy will you have to eat your hat, and we know that's a big one, Sir. :)
Hi Doyle,
Honest answer...I sometimes cringle at my marketing department and I have to slow em down a lot. (Paradise isn't using bots as far as I can see, and I have played in all games at all levels, and their cards are random, I can assure anyone who knows any math: Analysis of their millions of posted hands attest to it.) It was not a smart marketing idea.
You might ask your executives to read a few postings here about how to improve your site: I have posted a few thoughts as have others (I run a well-known computer software firm, I know what you guys need to do, and Paradise needs some competition, I posted 2-3 times different suggestions for you). These ideas are on what Paradise did well, how to compete against them. Yes, I'd like another site to play on.
I have owned your SS book for many years, it is great, especially the pix of guys like David and Bobby Baldwin as teenagers. But seriously, thanks.
Best,
Mark
Dear Mark,
Please explain to me how you can arrive at the conclusion that Paradise is running random cards by studying incomplete data i.e. the 27 million partial hand histories they offered. Until and unless every card is shown, one cannot ascertain the randomness of the cards. So their data is useless, a mere ploy on their part in my opinion. And I am amazed that someone of your stature would fall prey to it.
Jeez - they can't very well show folded hands can they? That would be an amazing breach of etiquette. When I play I want to be damn sure my folded hands aren't displayed anywhere.
Well you say, they'd anonymize them so that wouldn't be a problem. Wrong, all you had to look for was a sequence of cards from your hand history.
Actually, I think paradise do use bots. People that should know tell me that for sure they do. I'm not sure it's wrong to use them, but I feel they should identify them to the other players. Doyle Brunson www.highlandsclub.com
Dear Doyle,
Apparently we are not speaking of the same kind of bots. The bots referred to are house bots that are programmed to have an edge to make money for the house. Bringing it into that context, I am sure you are not in favor of them. We're not talking of shills that are put in to just flesh out a game. We're talking illegal, unethical, bank-roll chewing code-bots that are stealing honest players money, Sir.
I am never going to wash my computer monitor again. Sir Doyle spoke to me. =) *wistful sigh*
Just curious Desire.....>>>><<< what proof or reference or facts do you have to back up your arguement that Paradise has bots playing there designed (programmed) for a house edge.
Don't put words in my mouth. I don't expect them to show anything. That's been my whole point all along. Their refusal to allow independent verification of their operation. My suspicion of their operation only deepeded when they tried to use their partial hand histories to placate those of us that are demanding that they prove their site is dealing fair and square. And the real victims are the lower-limit games, because the more correctly your opponents play, the less susceptible you are to the constant suckouts, only because they don't happen at the rate of occurence as the lower limit tables. I don't believe Paradise will ever allow independent verification of their operation unless and until they overhaul their current system.
desire==I certainly didn't mean to defend paradise. I was however speaking of the same bots [I loved the way you described them, you should be a writer} I personally don't believe a computer can beat a poker game but I could be wrong. At any rate they should have names that end in bot where the players know what they are up aganist. Good luck!!==Doyle Brunson www.highlandsclub.com
I really hope the highland casion / mr Doyle don't endorse the illegal use of computer programs to defraud the human players.
You say you don't think computers can beat human players - maybe that's true for the world class players, but rookies, intermediate and good players will loose a lot of their money to those bots.
You should now sir that the odds become skewed when there are computer bots involved.
Let me put it this way ; If you were running a blackjack game, would you allow me to show up with a computer and enter all the cards into a program on it while playing? If yes, then lets set up a game, if no then why do you endorse the same principle for poker?
I was considering playing at highland but i must say your views on customer fraud has me worried.
And by the way - how hard is it to let those computer bots know your hand huh ?
If anyone proves there are pp sanctioned bot I'd sue them to high heaven as well as file criminal charges in costa rica.
Bots=fraud
Stop ignoring the laws of probability and quit playing that suited junk,then your game may improve.
I'm not sure I understand your post. How would you know anything I play - I don't play under the name blue eyes, besides, three suited with high card on third street isn't a bad starter in a multiway pot.
Sorry blue eyes I didn't know it sounded like I was in favor of bots, because I'm not. I just meant at least they should be idenified. I think bots are more valuable to paradise in terms of starting games as opposed to trying to get them to win.==Doyle Brunson www.highlandsclub.com PS--desire--lol
Hi Doyle!
Thinking about the possibility of bots in Paradise, I initially thought nothing wrong of them. Actually, I thought it kind of cool. I am not speaking about the ones that make unscrupulous use of secret information, of course. Just the ones, as you say, could help start games.
I've self-studied poker-playing bots and there are a handful that are able to SIGNIFICANTLY beat weak players. It's really very interesting how one in particular is programmed. They used no "expert knowledge." That is, they didn't program a rigid strategy into the software. Instead, they accumulate each opponent's tendencies and run thousands of simulations to produce a fairly accurate judgement of that opponent's hand strength. This program has been tested on a free Internet site generally regarded as having very good play quality.
Anyhow, I got sidetracked...
I agreed with your statement that the bots should be identified. And then I got to thinking...if these bots were identified to other players, they would be sitting ducks to a new breed of players who simply seek out these bots and exploit their well-defined faults. These bots would not have a chance, as even an average player could follow a set of guidelines detailing how to play against the bots.
Wait a minute! Did I just contradict myself? A couple of paragraphs ago, I stated that a bot exists that adapts to opponents' tendencies. Why couldn't they program a bot that does this? That would be fine EXCEPT for the fact that they may be running dozens of bots collecting information on hundreds of players simultaneously. All of the information collected from all the bots would go into one central location, producing a borg-like "collective conscious." Humans could not possibly track that many players' stats at the same time.
Assuming that computers ARE able to beat humans, is my reasoning flawed?
ThanX!
Hi, I still don't know how you can accept a computer bot at an online cardroom.
Playing video poker is one thing if you're so inclined, but having a bot analyze all plays you ever made, analyzing the odds of a winning hand showing and then playing accordingly - if you think that's a fair deal to fish and intermediaries I respectfully disagree and wow never to play with you.
How would you feel if we sat down at a cardroom table and I pulled out a laptop computer and recorded all your plays for a couple of days and then started playing against you using my laptop to analyze the plays, calculate odds etc? You know I'd be banned from every cardroom in the US if I tried that.
Same way card counters are banned from blackjack tables etc.
Do you perhaps think collusion is cool too ?
can someone tell me what BOTS are ?? thanks
Computer programs run by an online cardroom that pretend to be human players and play against you.
Not that we've seen proof that such things are running tho.
I have mixed feelings about bots playing online. I wouldn't mind playing against one ASSUMING:
1. They are identified as bots
2. I KNEW that they did not use inside information.
Wow..that anyone would accept the use of bot period blows my mind. Why would anyone want to???
Like I said, I have mixed feelings. I believe that I could beat an average bot. On the other hand, I know there exists at least one that I could not beat.
I see your opposition to all bots, but I still think I would not mind playing against one.
You would run screaming to your nearest Congressman or Congresswoman if you were playing against a bot that was mandated to receive the winning hand from the house, believe it. That is the difference between playing with an aritificial intelligence device and a bot that is just a seat designed to sweep chips in the coffers of the Owners of a site.
Jeez - you cannot go screaming to your US congressman about loosing while ilegally gambling at a Costa Rica online poker room.
I am not speaking of bots programmed to win and use "insider information."
Wouldn't do much good screaming to my congressman about this, would it?
Oki - my bad.
I disagree on the usefulness and legality of bots but if an online cardroom used them I'd expect the bots to be identifiable in some way, and they should be designed to neither win nor loose.
Bots should also be used solely to start a short handed game, if there's a bot on a full table that bot is going to affect the other players in some way.
I also feel that the thin line between independant starter bots and "make money using illegal means such as seeing downcards bots" is way too thin for comfort. What's preventing an employee of such a site from making his own little bot ?
What's to prevent a site in financial trouble from employing these bots to fleece the customers before folding their tents?
All in all an online cardroom lives or dies with trust, any hint of impropriety will eventually shut down a site.
After being able to consistantly beat the PP tourneys Im going through a drought. I generally play extremely tight early on and open up at about 6 handed. I haven't placed in the money in the last 6 or 7 I've played. Are the fish at PP getting smarter? Is anyone else experiencing the same thing? BTW--for all the people that believe in the cash out consparicy (sp?), I did just cash out before this drought.
Eric
heavy luck component in pp tournies imho, have personally had amazing swings...just won one after drought of 6, but no cashout...gl
Someone should check the starting hand distributions on the small limit tournaments. Seems to me there's just a ton of pocket pairs.
Eric, The tournaments have gotten harder to beat because the players have become smarter even the fish. When the touneys first opened on paradise I was in the money about 40% of the time for the past 2 months it has come down to 30%. Players did not know how to handle the increase in blinds and played alote of crap hands. The play has become alote tighter and the majority of players are waiting for a premium hand. I have been playing poker for 20 years the game is getting harder to beat by the minute (all poker games limit,no limit ,touneys etc..) all it takes is 100.00 worth of books and dedication. I know the last line has nothing to do with the paradise tourneys just threw it in.
Good Luck
Opps I have been playing for 45 years and the last line means everything
If you can win on one site does that neccesarily mean that you win on other sites?
I struggle to beat paradise but I easily beat some other poker rooms.
anyone care to list the pokerrooms in order of witch is the easiest to beat and witch is the hardest to beat.
thank you
PokerSpot is the most difficult to beat.
.
Thanks fred.
I know you hate them, but also, you forgot:
It is hardest to beat because the rake is 100%. hehe.
Mark
Count me in among the people who have lost at Paradise but are winners at other sites. Almost all the games I have seen at other sites (I've been at Pokerspot, Highlands, and Planet) are much softer than the Paradise games. I have also heard that the games at Delta are good, but have not played there. I stick to Planet mostly because of their processing speed with cashouts.
Try this site" www.pokerroom.com"
From my records flushs still tend to won hands twoce as much as a normal table does. This leads me to the conclusion that most players are putting more weight into holding suited cards.
It's been proven that the cards are dealt at random.
So - how does one play knowing that more fish are holding onto suited cards longers.
This must make certain cards more important while moving others down the list.
Nothing has been proven about this place at all. I guess you belive that creationism has been proven, too. I know many people that claim that Zecharia Sitchin's theories have been proven,too.(They believe that humans were genetically manufactured by outerspace men).
:-)
That's about the kind of intelligent drivel I expect from someone who took off from Paradise with their tail between their legs.+++ Oh by the way are you still wanting the answer why they don't burn the cards in cyperspace, I read what you posted on the RGP concerning this question Rounder, and Steve Badger put you in your place about asking stupid questions. Later Mike G.
Clearly this is so, they all speak the same talking points direct from the hive mind.
No , I like to think like a real dweeb. Lightning hit a pool of soup and here we are. Geez, talk about unbelievable. Lol
rather not actually USE YOUR BRAIN and answer a question. Whining like a baby is more your style.
Your participation of internet chat and online gaming during company time is totally unethical and a breach of trust to the tax payers of the great state of Wisconsin.
Well said, sisko...and i reiterate, not a damn thing's been proven about Paradise's dealing except that they are too arrogant to allow legitimacy to be proven by an outside expert. They would rather take the time to post the skewed results of 27m hands. Knowing that nothing can be gleaned from these results without all of the information about the hands.
that can't anser a question but would rather whine.
Lets see, my shoelace is untied, should I complain or figure out a way for tie it.
No, you should continue to work at a job, stealing your employer's money by using the time he is paying you and using his machine to go online and play poker while supposedly at work. And I, who have been in business for myself for over 25 years, should worry what a piss-ant like you thinks of me? I think NOT, chump.
Desire==== what kind of business is it?
profitable
Desire>>> can't you even give us a better hint?
Hi, I've just started playing at PP myself, 7-stud.
This is what I've been able to discern so far.
I see more quads than at a real table - which seems correct since there are way more hands than at a regular table. Some people have alleged that PP's software gives out more quads than usual - I don't think that that is correct, assuming it is trips go up in value.
As to flushes and straights - there are many many people on PP who draw when they have two card flushes on third, who keep going when they make three flushes on fourth and who are impossible to get off with four flushes.
I've had AA on the board and still been chased by flush draws - usually ending up with me winning money :-)
People play really loose in my opinion, which makes for multiway pots. That means that your medium pairs are near worthless and high pairs should be played more carefully than at a real table. This depends on the players at table you're at of course, if there are many tight players then pairs fare better. Good multiway cards are straight and flush draws with high cards, high two pair isn't too bad ( A or K up ), trips are usually good if they come early, boats always make me happy.
I had one hand where I started out with the nuts - JJJ. I raise the bring-in, get 3 callers ( including the bring-in) with small door cards. Nest card for me was a 4, one caller gets A one gets a suited card and one gets nada. I make a full bet, A calls, two suited raises, the guy with nothing on the board folds, I reraise, A calls again, two suited reraises me, feeling like I'm in heaven I call and A calls. Next card to me is another 4, I have a boat, which at this point is the pure nuts. A cathes nothing special, two suited now has a three flush on the board. I bet, A calls, three flush raises, I reraise, A folds, three flush reraises me, I call. On sixth I catch nothing special, three flush catches another flush card. Sufficive to say the flush guy raises and reraises me all the way to showdown where I show him my boat and take the pot.
This illustrates that many of the players, especially at the lower limit games, play way too loose, have a hard time folding a draw, and seemingly forget to take into account the behavior and board cards of their opponents. I mean, from the story above, the flush guy had a three flush and gets raised by a door J and then reraised. This should have told him something was afoot.
You'll also see lots of bad beats if you play tight, because these people are wrong to draw against you, assuming you play correctly, in the end they still loose but it's not fun.
As to all the conspiracy theorists - most of my lost hands have been due to either mistakes on my part, some due to better play by the opponent and occasionally being outdrawn by suckers.
I don't use the nickname Blue Eyes on PP, I'm still a rookie.
Blue eyes,
Good post. You are not such a rookie.
I agree, the stud players at lower limits (up to 6-12), play way too loose. Remember that each limit is equivalent to about 1/2 or less of its live casino equivalent...due to several factors which I and other have posted. So that 2/4 is like a live 5/10 game in many ways, so don't go up too high too fast without the bankroll, the 10-20 players are good.
Two days ago I had AAA rolled up and three people chased me and paid! (I slow play very well though, so none of them had a clue; although at 10-20 they would have.)
Also, the cards Paradise posted prove without a single doubt the randomness of the dealing. I analysed millions of hands (and posted the results long ago when the first 5.9 million hands were dealt). Of the 3-5 cards shown, everything was completely random. For a small example, if all 5 cards are dealt, how many royals should occur, how many st8flushes, how many flushes, str8s, trips, etc...well their numbers match the tables completely.
Anyone who thinks otherwise should run the tests themselves. But they don't know how....so they'd rather throw stones. Probably play poker as well as they know how to analyse cards...which is not at all.
Mark
thanks! - sorry, didn't mean to have you click on this Message but Subject was to short.
If you're playing low limit hold'em then your findings support my own ideas that Paradise deals out a lot more suited starters than random expectation would suggest. Add to it the poor play and a lot more flushs will result. I also believe there are more pocket pairs in play leading to more sets. Whatever the skew the game's not the same.
Rod M. wrote
From my records flushs still tend to won hands twoce as much as a normal table does. This leads me to the conclusion that most players are putting more weight into holding suited cards.
Ferris Bueller wrote:
If you're playing low limit hold'em then your findings support my own ideas that Paradise deals out a lot more suited starters than random expectation would suggest.
No, Rod's findings support the notion that more people stay in the pot with the suited starters that they are dealt. That statement (which is very likely true, or at least statistically supportable in the low limit games) and your claim are not the same.
BTW, if there are people playing any two s00ted, you've got to raise to punish them with your big s00ted cards and big pairs, and tread lightly when they stay in and the third flush card hits the board.
It will seem like they're sucking out endlessly only because you don't notice when they meekly fold their 8s4s when the third spade never shows up.
When I posted 5,499 hands I was dealt at Paradise I was pleased to see your response saying that you would analyze them for randomness. When you posted your analysis of a small portion of the hands I was disappointed. When you signed your private e-mail to me "Ed (..but call me Ferris)", I respected your wish to post anonymously. When your only response to the fact that an analysis of ALL the hands showed them to be random was that I had wasted your time, I was ticked. Now I see you posting the same old "the cards are not random" crap in another thread, and I am pissed.
Tell us, NJ Fred (whose last post was on 1 Feb 2001), or Ferris Bueller (who began posting on 2 Feb 2001), or Ed Wolf (whose name and e-mail address was on the private e-mail you sent me), what is your real agenda here?
I believe his real agenda is to just get attention and feel important. Several years ago I offered to sit down with Ed Wolf to let him air out his greviances. His reply was too insulting to post here.
Many years ago, when I first came to Las Vegas I met a dedicated player who was adament that the $10-$20 hold 'em game could not be beat for more than $15 per hour. Of course it could be beat for much more than that. In reality, what I was being told was that this particular person couldn't beat it for more than $15 and was too stubborn to overhaul his game so that he could be more successful.
I suspect that this is the problem with our "friend" Ed Wolfe. For some reason he has become a poker player and has discovered that even though the games are fairly easy to beat, they are tough to beat for a good amount. Thus he is probably stuck at the minimum wage level and is bitter/jealous about it. He sees people who are much more successful and for the life of him he can't understand why, and he then vents his frustrations on these forums and in a few other places.
A-men. NJFRED, ED Wolfe, Ferris Bueller, Sean or whoever he is needs to see a shrink. Doyle Brunson www.highlandsclub.com
Truth be told, Ed started whining about being cheated in live games several years ago and started his hate campaign against 2+2 because you didin't agree with him. Whatever riff there is between RGP and 2+2 has it's roots from those times IMO and Ed is the major reason it happened.
Tom:
As usual, you are absolutely correct. But I think that this supports my argument. If Ed Wolfe was making let's say $50 per hour in the games, I don't think that he would have been carrying on and on about cheating. On the other hand, when you can only scrape by a little bit, live in a miserable place, and don't have a very productive life, the cheating issue becomes a form of psychological denial. (Of course I'm just speculating about these things since I have never met Ed Wolfe personally.) Perhaps one of our phychologists -- are you there Dr. Feeney -- could do a better job of explaining this.
From the beginning of poker [at least for the past47 years] it has always been the cry of the marginal or losing players that something is wrong with the game. 99.9% of the time it isn't true. Poor Ed.===Doyle Brunson www.highlandsclub.com
From the beginning of civilization, it has always been the cry of the marginal/unsuccessful that someone else is to blame.
This has probably been commented on before, but when the BB goes all in and loses, the next player skips the Big Blind. This is mildly annoying in the ring game, but in tournaments it can be devastating. Let's say you and another have about T550 at stakes of 400-800 and he only has to pay the SB. That can affect the outcome of the tournament. Because a lot of people are eliminated on their Big Blind, this happens a lot. Planet does not have this problem. The blinds work like a live cardroom.
It does not look like they intend to fix this bug. So plan your poker strategy accordingly, knowing that this may occur.
Hi there everyone, still grinding it out at low limit Paradise games.
However, there's one thing I am a bit unsure of:
How to play hands like AQo & AJs/o vs loose-aggressive players, capable of raising with hands like QTs. This is low-limit, so you usually get a few extra callers who almost definitely plays worse hands than you. May AQo and AJs might be worth a re-raise if you have cold-callers between and/or players capable of calling THREE bets cold behind you?
Are these hands re-raisable under ANY circumstances vs. loose-aggressive types at low-limits?
Lars
AJ is not that big a hand in any game for a reraise or slow play, on line or live. in a live game you are able to see the players,get afeel for whose doing what? You have have more control in a live game In any game AJis vulnerable,unless you know its the nuts.
By reraising are not not making their bad hands better by raising the pot amount?
If it's multiway, yes, you often are. Both your hands are improving because of other players calling with worse hands.
If it's heads up, then no, because they are paying more to see a flop with a hand that is currently behind.
Chris
Yes. There was a time when I would always 3-bet AQ in the low limits. Nowadays I tend to cold call 2 and if rags flop I will raise their flop bet, because if you three-bet preflop an aggressive player will often cap any 2 which puts you in a difficult situation. I still tend to fold AJs but I'll flat call it if I know several other players are calling.
Chris
whiners that don't have a clue. I asked a serious question and everybody chimes in with dealing problems.
When it comes to actually solving something their tiny brains can't handle it and they go into complain mode rather then ACTUALLY TRYING TO THINK!
I'll try to find an adult board to answer question!
You have me dumbfounded, what is your latest whine all about?, your thread is clear out of the blue.====P.S. are you still looking over your shoulder to make sure the boss isn't catching you playing online on companies time.
NOONE EXPECTS the SPANISH INQUISITION
ds
Please leave and never post again Rod M. You are offensive to many.
With 924 winning hands compiled fromn all winners in games I have played.
All compares are to Turbo Texas Holdem as a model for "loose" play (39% pre flop)
High cards winning are slightly higher but not by much 1.73 at Paradise 1.4 On Turbo
Pairs 21.4% at PP and 23.3% on TTH
2 Pair 30.7 PP 31.8 TTH
Trips 13.8 PP 11.6 TTH
Str8's 8.87% PP 11.5 TTH it seems less people are looking for str8's
Flushs 14.5% on PP 9.9% TTH - this is the big one. More people are playing suited cards and we should be aware of this.
Full Boat 8.01 % to 9.5 TTH less Boats
Quads 0.87 PP 1% TTH
You can use whatever theory you want, this are numbes you can use. All $1 table. The $2 tables does not have the Flush problem as great as the $1.
"Str8's 8.87% PP 11.5 TTH it seems less people are looking for str8's"
Is it possible that the same number of people are playing straights, but losing more often even when they hit due to the higher number of suited cards/flushes being played?
n
To all the "experts" spouting off bs statistics about having tested the hands from Paradise and found them to be completely random, you ought to be ashamed of your ineptitude. There can be no true results gleaned from incomplete hands being posted. Unless and until you have access to EVERY card being dealt, you can not tell a damn thing about the shuffle. So enough with your "i am an expert and i have fully investigated" crap. How old do you think the average reader of this bb is, 7???? Sheesh...
I don't know if you truly are an idiot in real life or you just play one on this board.
The analysis of cards from Paradise does unexplicably show that the flops, turn and river cards are perfectly random in distribution. That is a fact, backed up by hand histories. Then, what about the hole cards then? What about them, you think those won't be proven random either? Disregard your paranoia and ego for a second, and open your mind. It would only take literally hours for a group of us to compile a list of thousands of hole cards dealt at Paradise, and analyze them. I'm sure those would be distributed accordingly. The fact that this is so simple and definitave is reason enough for me to believe that if Paradise was cheating you are not going to come up with an answer in the hole cards.
Does all this mean the cards are actually being DEALT randomly? No, this data is not designed to "prove" that, but it does imply that there is no MISTAKE in their alogrithm. If the cards are not beaing "dealt" randomly, then that is the direct intent of the Paradise program. So here is your conspiracy theory:
--- Paradise's card distribution is designed to look random, but the cards are not actually dealt randomly but are rigged to favor certain players (weak real players and bots for the house) in certain situations to keep the game going longer to extract more rake. ---
To you, desire, this may seem completely reasonable. To me, its f**king nuts to believe without a single piece of evidence.
Desire, if you could post just one piece of concrete data that would support your opinions, I would fully respect your ideas and offer an apology for accusing you of being a paranoid schizophrenic. I notice in all your posts, you avoid the topic and revert to accusations and insults. Take the high road this time, and put up or shut up.
Well put Gator. I enjoy reading posts (desire's) that claim that us statisticians have no clue what we are doing. If desire was to come up with a theory that she wants tested, I'd be glad to. To just say that the game is rigged without any evidence puts desire's remarks right up there with the idiots that claimed that the world was coming to an end due to the "Y2K" bug. Let's see,at Paradise the hole cards are dealt randomly, the flop is random, but the game is rigged? For whom? How would they do it? Please dont waste my time in saying that they intentionally help out new players by flopping favorable hands, or flopping certain boards to increase the rake. They are making money hand over fist, I doubt they are going to risk their $100k+/day golden goose to help out new players. If it was ever to be shown that there game was not on the level, EVERY player would go to another online room. If you were in charge, would you risk that? By the way, even word of mouth can hurt an online site. If you dont believe me, go check out Pokerspot.
Your post is offensive. By the way, if you would post one fact as to who owns Paradise Poker, then I might be more inclined to give you some credit for your opinions.
How could I know who runs Paradise, and how would that make me more credible?
What is this information useful for anyway?
Bill Gates owns Microsoft. Vince McMahon owns the WWF. Big f**cking deal, are you calling them when The Rock loses or your Windows crashes. Yeah they'll straighten it out for you.....
desire,
Maybe, instead of poking holes in other peoples methodology, you could come up with a methodology which is both feasible, and which would satisfy either of the two following hypotheses:
1) Paradise Poker deals randomly distributed cards
2) Paradise Poker does not deal randomly distributed cards.
When you come up with a solid methodology for testing either of these, please let us know.
- Andrew
are totally meaningless and he does not have a clue on whether Paradise has bogus cards being dealt.
First he says there are to many suited cards being dealt and now he says there is no way to tell.
To much boozing I'd say!
who says there are too many suited cards and no way to tell?
desire says that the reason for so many flushs is that they deal out to many suited cards in the pocket (probebly to only new players LOL).
Rod M, YOU IGNORANT SLUT YOU,
First off, I already informed you that I don't drink. I already informed you that I don't drink ever since the morning I woke up several years ago with a hangover and found myself in bed with a coyote-ugly beast of a man like you lying on my arm. And I already informed you that I chewed my arm off at the shoulder rather than wake up this coyote-ugly beast of a man like you. So your boozin' theory is bs.
Second off, I didn't say anything about suited cards, bozo. Get your facts straight.
And as far as the lil boy Gator is concerned. I won't respond to anyone that has enough water for a diving pool nestled behind his ears.
Enuf said.
Just wondering Desire, if you ever have anything nice to say? Stop firing off insults and post some solid evidence!!!!!
jazzman
ROFLMAO!!
Damn desire, I love you girl! Come play with me! You're wasting your time with these idiots. Don't even bother responding to them. They are so far beneath you, it's pathetic. Drop me an email, please.
She avoided the topic completetly and went straight for the insults, nailing two people in one post.
Worthless piece of trash.
You are a piece of shit Gator
I don't understand your post. Are you saying that you think the cards are not independent of each other in relation to the flop, turn, river, and everyone's hole cards? So it's not enough to look at a sample size of one of these elements and say that they're random but you actually want to see if there's a correlation between a new player's hole cards and the flop.
After seeing that the flops are random and that a good sample size of hole cards are random (distributed evenly), I feel fine playing paradise. I believe the random number generator they are using works well and I have seen no great irregularities in the games. The only thing I worry about is collusion and hackers.
Just my 2 cents.
--jeff
The cards RE completely random. I stake my bankroll on it. hackers and collusion are a worry but just watch out for them and you can stop.
This may seem techincal, but there is a big difference.
The cards have been proven to be ***distributed*** randomly. The analysis of hands doesn't not prove that they are actually ***dealt*** randomly.
That understood, do I think that they are dealt randomly. I'll place my bet right behind your, if we could only find someone to take it.
My my... I tried explaining about hole cards in an earlier post.
Folded hole cards cannot be displayed for the simple reason that anyone with computer savvy could look through the hands and find data on players they have played against.
It would be really easy - play for a month, request hand history of all your hands,then look at the data posted, find the hands you've played, look at opponents data, make database of said data.
Now you can play against the opponents you have identified knowing what they like to play with and what they'll fold.
Not too useful against fish that will play anything, but an excellent tool against good / tight / experienced players.
Say in a 7stud game you know for a fact that Player A will only raise with KK or higher on third for instance. What do you do when he raises? Say your analysis further shows that Player A will always call on fourth if he improves but will raise as a semi bluff if he doesn't connect ?
Etc. etc.
If they post my folded hole cards I'll definately stop playing there. As will anyone with half a brain.
You should read some books about poker, you might understand why knowing your opponents habits can be such a powerful tool.
As to the whole "suited" debate - there are so many loose players and fish who'll play on two suited and keep going to the river if they make four suited - that's the reason you see more flushes. It's due to poor play by the players - not bad software.
I cannot begin to tell you how many times I get beaten on the river by hail mary passes. I always congratulate the player of course, tell him what a good play he/she's made - and then I take their money the other 50 times they don't connect :-)
Two questions. 1) I'm in college and don't have much cash but consider myself to be a good poker player (played for a long time, read all the books, good instincts, etc.) Anyway, I just started playing on Paradise but do to my low funding I've been fooling around only with Hold'em .50/1.00. I've been doing pretty well, up a little bit. My essential question is, are these LL games beatable. That is, from your professional experience is the .50/1.00 or 1/2 game at Paradise beatable? I currently think that it is, given that I have been making money. I wonder what your thoughts are. 2) I occasionally play in the tournaments as well. I only play the $5+$1 tourneys. I've played 3, won 2, finished third the other. Am I good or just starting out hot. That is, do you pro's think these Low buy in tourneys are beatable on a regular basis or not? Thanks for your time. Steve B Note: my first post ever on two-plus-two. it's an honor.
I am not good enough to answer question 1. As for two, my only suggestion is to move up to the $10 tournaments as soon as your funding allows. The fee is the same ($1) so you are only "taxed" at 1/2 the rate at the $10 level as you are at the $5 level.
I'm no pro, but I'm a college student also, same boat, playing the same .5-1 and tourneys limits since last October. I bought in once for $50 cashed that back out a week later and never looked back. My account has grown to over $700 now. (I've built another $200 at Planet, same way, one $50 buy-in, cashed back a week or so later). So you can definately win at this level. U can't win that much though, barely covers beer money. At best you are gonna make $2 an hour, you are better off studying, getting a job, or hanging outside sorrority houses. But if you are playing to get better, gain expeierence and for fun, then the money earned is just icing.
Move up to the $10 Tourney games. Win a few and move up to $20 (you won't see a much a difference in the other player's abilities) That's mostly all I play now. Good luck.
'But if you are playing to get better, gain expeierence and for fun, then the money earned is just icing.'
Couldn't agree more,well said.
(1) Yes, you can beat them, for about 4 BB/hr playing two tables in the best games at .5/1 and 1/2, if you play a constant A game.
(2) Most people will tell you to move up to $10 tourneys because the rake is halved. This is good advice in theory, BUT... I've had very little experience with either, but the experience I've had suggests that the $5 tourneys are astronomically easier to beat than the $10 ones. In fact, I think the $10 tourneys are harder to beat than the $20. That's because anyone looking to beat the game realises after a while that there's less rake at the $10 level, whereas the $5 tourneyers just looking to gamb00l don't really care because they never actually win anyway.
I don't know if the easiness of the game is compensation for the increased rake, but it's gotta be close.
Chris
The low limit Paradise games are certainly beatable. When i first started to play online i didnt want to put to much money in it so i started playing the 0.5/1 games. Now after playing 3 months (i think about 2 hours a day average) i'm up enough to play the 3/6 games with my profit (about 1k). I think this is not an extreme profit, you just have to stay tight/aggressive and select the good games. Oh..and another hint...when you're tilting even a bit..stop playing that day, tilting will cost you alot of money, especially online.
For the tournaments, i cant give you a good opinion, i played only 3 $10 tournaments and ended second in one. So i only paid $3 rake :)
there's an ebb and flow thing going on at paradise that's sort of irritating and i wanted to know if others had noticed it.
ill sit at a 6-8 handed 1-2 game with 50% or greater seeing the flop. then by the time it's ten handed and gone through 2-3 rounds ill check again and we're at 30% per flop and falling! then ill leave the table and go to another 50% table and the process repeats itself.
are there really this many players changing tables according to the flop percentage? disturbing..
When there are fewer players at a table, the blinds make up a higher percentage of the table and thus accounting for the higher percentage. As the number of players reaches capacity, the blinds are a smaller percentage of the overall table and reduce the flop %.
I suspect this is causing what you see more than the table hopping.
The post to which I am replying can be found here.
One of the earlier posts where Gator tries to explain his logic can be found here.
Gator,
I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that JJ isn't a raising hand from the big blind. When you are playing against 6 random opponents, JJ wins about 28% of the pots in a pure showdown simulation. What you are saying is that the dynamics of the game cause the profit level of JJ to be cut in half, so that it has just less than 1/7 = 14.3% equity of the preflop money going into the pot.
You are going to have to do a little more analysis than you've already done to convince me that live play cuts into your profit so much. If anything, I'd think that expert play, and the conditions of the game would give the Jacks a little *more* profit edge, not less. In my experience, JJ is always a raising hand in an unraise pot preflop.
- Andrew
I totally agree Andrew..
infact with cold callers I would put in a raise even if it is raised to me
That explanation you cite was not my most thorough. Here it is for you, lets consider everything.
SMALL FAVORITE, BIG DOG First major problem. With 6 limpers, you certainly may not be ahead. UTG or other player may be slowplaying a bigger hand or a limper could have QQ etc... If that is the case, you are a huge dog to those hands. If you are the best right now, any hand with two overcards is getting proper odds to call your JJ raise. Now we both know that according to the fundamental theory, if those players are making the correct move to call you, you are not making money from them.
OUT OF POSITION I cant's stress this enough. You will be out of postion for the entire hand. Natedogg did a very nice job of explaining this. Heres a sample:
"If the flop comes overcards what do you do? Bet? Now if you bet and get raised, you have to release almost every time. Do you check and fold? If you are going to check and fold, why not see the flop for free? If you can flop an overpair to a T or 9, you will win a nice little pot. Even then you're vulnerable to an overcard falling on a later street......The fact of the matter is, JJ has very little chance of winning on the end against six other limpers, and if you have worst position, you have very little chance of playing the hand correctly, even if it DOES hold up. You can't maximize your profit when it's good and you will probably fail to minimize your losses when it's not."
Again nice work. The other point I made is that when you do raise from the blinds, you announce that you have a hand, and will get less action when you make your set and there are overcards. But you are not going to lose anyone if your JJ is still the best when you bet (namely because the flop has to be so poor), which is what you want those players to do, because now the pot is built up and they are getting correct odds to chase.
Same situation, but JJ on the button, I raise almost every time. Now postion works for me and I can get much more value out of the hand. JJ utg the gun, I raise.
VARIANCE I'll guess that the actual dollars and sense value of raising JJ (only when it is actually the best hand) in 7 handed pot before the flop is less than 5% of a big bet, but it will create large fluctuations in your bankroll. You can easily get away from more bad flops cheaply, since the pot will be smaller. Stablility of a low limit bankroll is reason enough to not raise from the BB.
Here is a test I would still like to see simulated:
EXPERIMENT: In this deal, which would you rather hold? KQs on the button, or JJ in the BB, with 6 limpers. I'd like to see someone run a test on this scenario with TTH. Use expert players as the JJ and KQs and loose players as the limpers. I suspect the KQs will make as much or more than the JJ. KQs is by no means a spectacular hand, goes to show how good JJ is.
I look forward to some commments.
sick of listening to a fifty cent player being an expert
Sounding bitter. I must have gotten all your money at the table, now you have plenty of time for your intelligent musings.
I know this is like rocket science, but read slowly:
When you go out of your way to read something that you didn't have to and don't like, the problem is not that it was written in the first place and the remedy is not that the author should stop writing.
GATOR
i agree by what you are saying if your assumption is that low limit players are so good that they will fold on the flop showing just rags if they only hold a small pair. My experience is that these players will follow you to the river to chase for their trips or inside straights. I can tell from your post that you havent tried the loosest cardrooms outthere, cuz you would not believe it. you get 5 6 cold callers time and time again....its really heaven....you gotto explore the world outside paradise man its so easy you will not believe me!!!!
SMALL FAVORITE, BIG DOG
This phrase only applies to short-handed pots.
First major problem. With 6 limpers, you certainly may not be ahead.
You are almost certainly "ahead" but whether you are or not makes little difference. You don't need to have the best hand, or be more than 50% likely or even 30% likely to win to justify raising.
UTG or other player may be slowplaying a bigger hand or a limper could have QQ etc... If that is the case, you are a huge dog to those hands.
Oh, come on.
If you are the best right now, any hand with two overcards is getting proper odds to call your JJ raise. Now we both know that according to the fundamental theory, if those players are making the correct move to call you, you are not making money from them.
This is incorrect. Your opponents' good drawing odds after the flop doesn't necessarily leave you with the worst of it, it only means he won't lose from the flop onward. You'll make money on the bets before the flop and after the flop on your raises and from the weaker draws.
OUT OF POSITION I cant's stress this enough. You will be out of postion for the entire hand.
The same thing applies to JJ utg, where you recommend raising. Obviously, position isn't determinative. To illustrate what a small factor it is, have you ever heard of any good authority suggesting that big pairs shouldn't be raised early in a loose game because you'll be out of position?
The fact of the matter is, JJ has very little chance of winning on the end against six other limpers
Everything except AA/KK has very little chance of winning multiway, and they're not "likely" to win. It does not follow that multiway action makes raising with a premium hand unprofitable. JJ stands a better chance of winning than any other individual limping hand about 98% of the time (i.e., the 98% of the time that the limper doesn't have a bigger pair). When everyone is a bigger underdog than you are, you win.
and if you have worst position, you have very little chance of playing the hand correctly, even if it DOES hold up.
If I can get JJ to beat 6 opponents for at least 2 small bets each, it's ok if I play it "incorrectly."
VARIANCE
Oh yeah, that. The last refuge argument. When you're not comfortable with a play but can't well explain why it isn't profitable, say "it's a high variance thing," as if you won't enjoy the winnings as much.
I'll guess that the actual dollars and sense value of raising JJ (only when it is actually the best hand) in 7 handed pot before the flop is less than 5% of a big bet
Based on what? Besides, I though your point was that raising was a losing play?
but it will create large fluctuations in your bankroll.
You'll get JJ/TT in one of the blinds about .2% of the time, so multiply this by the frequency of multiple limpers. Huge fluctuations, hemmoraghing cash.
I take it your advice is to always raise out of the BB with JJ too.
"You are almost certainly "ahead" but whether you are or not makes little difference. You don't need to have the best hand, or be more than 50% likely or even 30% likely to win to justify raising. "
Having the best hand or not makes little difference? And JJ has a 30% chance of wining in a 7 hand pot where most players are likely to see the river. OK
"This is incorrect. Your opponents' good drawing odds after the flop doesn't necessarily leave you with the worst of it, it only means he won't lose from the flop onward. You'll make money on the bets before the flop and after the flop on your raises and from the weaker draws. "
Wrong pal. Two overcards to JJ are only a 11:10 underdog preflop. The blinds more than make up for this difference, and can even justify calling your raise cold. That means AK, KQ, AQ (18 total) hands are playing correctly before the flop against you. If they have position on you, their hands become the more profitable ones if played correctly. No one ever claimed you will have the worst of it with JJ, just that a raise is not "raise every time hands down" in the BB hand.
"UTG or other player may be slowplaying a bigger hand or a limper could have QQ etc... If that is the case, you are a huge dog to those hands. Oh, come on. "
Yeah, that would never happen, I don't know what I was thinking. Never take such things as hands your opponnents might be playing into account when determining stategy how to play your hand.
"The same thing applies to JJ utg, where you recommend raising. Obviously, position isn't determinative. To illustrate what a small factor it is, have you ever heard of any good authority suggesting that big pairs shouldn't be raised early in a loose game because you'll be out of position?"
Have you gone mad? Position a small factor? First of all we are not talking about big pairs here, we are talking JJ and that is a medium pair. Second, you can turn to page 140 of TOP and read how it is wrong to loosesn up with small and med pairs in a loose game, your hand is a favorite against each individual, but an underdog combined. Lastly, Sklansky devotes an entire chapter to position in TOP. One thing he states is that is "underrated" by many players. No kidding. And to answer your question, you raise from early postion with a big pair your objective is to thin the field and see the flop short handed and build the pot with the best hand. In the blinds the limpers are committed, so thinning the field is elinated as a rationale for raising. Your postion in the rest of this hand will have the most impact on the amount you win or lose.
"Everything except AA/KK has very little chance of winning multiway, and they're not "likely" to win. It does not follow that multiway action makes raising with a premium hand unprofitable. JJ stands a better chance of winning than any other individual limping hand about 98% of the time (i.e., the 98% of the time that the limper doesn't have a bigger pair). When everyone is a bigger underdog than you are, you win. "
98% of the time? Maddness, I say, you are out of line. There are 12 hands that beat you, 1 hand that ties you, and a minimum of 18 hands that are getting proper odds to call. Smaller pairs get good odds to call the blind in mid postion once a few have limped in. The flop is going to determine the favorite in this hand. It would be better in my opinion to see it free, and not reveal anything about the strength of your hand.
"If I can get JJ to beat 6 opponents for at least 2 small bets each, it's ok if I play it "incorrectly."
Yeah, well it's very much ok with me if my opponents play thier hands incorrectly too. Good advice....
"Oh yeah, that. The last refuge argument. When you're not comfortable with a play but can't well explain why it isn't profitable, say "it's a high variance thing," as if you won't enjoy the winnings as much."
Really now. Variance is the biggest enemy in loose games. The opponents are cake, the fluctions are your enemy. I think your argument is invoked. When you can't explain you whats wrong with variance, insult it.
"You'll get JJ/TT in one of the blinds about .2% of the time, so multiply this by the frequency of multiple limpers. Huge fluctuations, hemmoraghing cash."
You are right here, thats true, this hand no matter what is going to make or break anyone, and claiming that it cuases fluctuations is a little overkill. But I'm sure if you raise evertime with JJ in the bb, I'm sure you do it in the sb, then mid postion, then with 1010 or QQ and the list goes on.
I was composing my post as you were posting yours! We hit a lot of the same points.
natedogg
yeah, I was reading yours, thinking I just wrote that, post time 2:57 on each.
Anyway, I totally agree that its not the JJ in the BB scenario that is important, it is the lack of regard for position, and placing JJ on a pedestal that gets me.
You're wrong and you need to be a bit more humble, those are great poker minds you aren't listening to in this thread. A list of BB raising hands multiway that I use and you can make fun of:
AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AKs, AK, AQs, KQs, QJs and TJs. Against the biggest fish I will add AQ, AJs, ATs, T9s and 99. Sue me.
Maybe this would help:
http://www.fekali.com/jampreflop.html
It's a discussion (and a study, not just blabbering) on playing AQs out of the BB by my brother Izmet. It's not about JJ, but you might find some concepts interesting anyway. I know you won't believe me, but let me tell you: JJ makes even more money out of the BB than AQs does. Raise!
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
Slovenia
I plan to read over that article in detail. I've bookmarked it, and will consider it. Up front, your string of raising hands seems way too loose for early position (TJs: you are kidding?), I can't comment much more than that right now.
AK, KQ, AQ (18 total) hands are playing correctly before the flop against you.
Any one of them will be doing OK, but you've got six limpers, none of which will typically hold any of these hands. All you're doing is setting out a parade of unlikely horribles and saying: when this happens, it's bad. You're not advancing any kind of argument unless you deal with reasonable likelihood instead of nightmare scenarios. (BTW, you'd love to raise with JJ if up against all three of these hands at once, getting 3-1 against opponents with 6 outs between them, and you with the blockers against a straight).
[You said sarcastically] Never take such things as hands your opponents might be playing into account when determining strategy how to play your hand.
That's right, because to emphasize what you might be up against instead of what you're typically up against is classic weak-tight thinking. Roy Cooke: "if you play as if there's an Indian behind every tree, then you're just not going to make much of an hourly earn. Because you won't be getting in bets when you have edge. If you don't put in the volume when you have the edge, you can't make it in poker."
you raise from early postion with a big pair your objective is to thin the field and see the flop short handed and build the pot with the best hand. In the blinds the limpers are committed, so thinning the field is eliminated as a rationale for raising.
But you just got through saying that you would always raise limpers with JJ in late position, the only purpose of which would be to build the pot, not "thin the field" (which is also wrong thinking), and occasionally get a 4-card flop. You can talk about the importance of position all you like, but that won't explain how raising late or early with JJ is profitable but raising multiple limpers in a blind is not. I can repeat everything you've said to advance with equal force the insane argument that one should never call a raise in the big blind with JJ against several opponents.
Maddness, I say [to the notion that 98% of the time you'll beat each of the limpers], you are out of line. There are 12 hands that beat you, 1 hand that ties you, and a minimum of 18 hands that are getting proper odds to call.
All of which are raising hands. You are refusing to take into account that you are facing limpers.
Why so bellicose? We're exchanging ideas here. Jeez.
Anyway,
I disagree with you on some of your points.
You quoted: "OUT OF POSITION I cant's stress this enough. You will be out of postion for the entire hand." (quoting Gator)
and responded: The same thing applies to JJ utg, where you recommend raising. Obviously, position isn't determinative.
Position is far more important to your overall profit than most limit players realize. Raising with JJ utg and from the blinds are two totally different scenarious. The most obvious is that by raising utg, you may thin the field and give your hand a chance to win. By raising from the blind, you will almost never get anyone to drop out.
continuing...you responded: To illustrate what a small factor [position] is, have you ever heard of any good authority suggesting that big pairs shouldn't be raised early in a loose game because you'll be out of position?
Wow. To me this implies a serious misunderstanding of a several things: 1. the reason you raise up front with JJ, 2: the difference between early position and the blinds, 3: what a big pair is.
One big mistake people are making is to lump JJ and even QQ in with the big pairs KK and AA. There is simply a world of difference between AA and JJ. Not even close. And all the problems you face with JJ that you don't face when you have AA are compounded when you have worst position.
There's a reason that in HPFAP there is a section on early position and a section on the blinds. These are separated because they are two totally different situations.
You quoted: "and if you have worst position, you have very little chance of playing the hand correctly, even if it DOES hold up." (quoting me)
and responded: If I can get JJ to beat 6 opponents for at least 2 small bets each, it's ok if I play it "incorrectly."
That's not the danger. The danger is that you will fold incorrectly when your JJ is good even though the board looks awful. A secondary danger is that you will overplay your hand now that the pot is so big. If you had position, you are much more likely to play your hand correctly. This means that you're giving up a lot by playing JJ out of position, and raising with it from the blinds is probably not a very profitable move.
However, see my comments below, where I concede it's probably not a big difference either way. I actually think this whole discussion illuminates a much larger issue: lack of understanding of the importance of position even when playing limit hold'em.
natedogg
"Bellicose" means "warlike" and I am being, at most, slightly sarcastic.
To crystallize your argument, you're saying that position is a big deal -- and I agree -- and that when you're out of position a pot building raise that makes sense when you're in position no longer makes sense.
Why? Because you might play your hand incorrectly? You said "The danger is that you will fold incorrectly when your JJ is good even though the board looks awful."
How much of a danger is that? The flop comes with one or two overcards, you bet and are raised or you check and there's a bet and a raise. How much more often will you muck the best hand because you raised before the flop compared to the times you'll muck when you didn't raise before the flop?
I can just as easily argue that the smaller pot and your opponent's perception that no one has AK/AQ or a big pair increases the likelihood that your opponents will bluff and that you'll lay down the best hand. Say, for example, the flop comes QT4 and you check, and it's checked around to an aggressive player with AT. He bets, you raise, the field drops and he thinks: the blind should do this with any queen and a number of tens. I might have the best hand, he'll think, and if I 3-bet, I might be asble to get him off a weak queen. If you make the same play after raising preflop, he'll immediately rule out a ten or a weak queen and won't be able to rule out an overpair.
"A secondary danger is that you will overplay your hand now that the pot is so big."
Then don't overplay your hand.
As I said in my reply to Gator, you can just as easily use "position" to justify folding JJ in the blind with a multiway raised pot. I think you'd agree that that's crazy because, obviously, with JJ you have the best of it against multiple opponents. So why is it so hard to accept the notion or raising when you have the best of it? It's not because of some greater insight about the importance of position or the difficulties of playing large multiway pots, but because of a pervasive fear of taking marginal but nevertheless profitable risks. In other words, the stubborn persistence of weak-tight thought.
First, I'd like to emphasize that all we're doing here is trading opinions, trying to learn from each other's views, and exchanging ideas. This isn't directed at you in particular Andrew, but it seems that some posters may take it personally if you merely disagree with their hand analysis.
That said, I'll point out that a lot of the discussion in favor of raising with a hand like this from the blind seems to totally disregard position.
For instance you said, "When you are playing against 6 random opponents, JJ wins about 28% of the pots in a pure showdown simulation. "
Simulation results are totally misleading and you should almost never base your play on them. A simulation does not take into account position and other players' moves and how you react to them, and the fact that your opponents are not limping with random hands. They are limping with limping hands.
JJ may win showdown simulations x% of the time, but you will often not be there to see it. If you're the kind of player who IS often there to see it, you are probably going to lose with JJ long term anyway, since you can't let go of it when you're beat.
For me, being out of position with such a borderline hand is enough reason not to raise.
I don't trust my own ability to play mistake-free poker after the flop when I act in front of six opponents with JJ. If I raise preflop with that hand, I'm giving up too much because of the number of opponents and my miserable position.
Others may disagree and feel that it's always worth a raise since you have about an 85% chance of having the best hand at the time. I personally think it's too easy to get into trouble post flop with that medium pair.
Lastly, Andrew also said: In my experience, JJ is always a raising hand in an unraise pot preflop.
The key here is "in my experience". If it works for you then awesome. I'm glad it's working out for you. I only wonder if you are lumping all your experiences with JJ into one conclusion, without discerning those times when you have no position.
One thing which can be really helpful is keep track of how often you win with QQ, JJ, and TT in the blinds and how big the pots are when you do win.
Do the same for when you have great position and check out the difference. I did this very analysis and was astonished at the result.
I truly believe that position is crucial in even limit hold'em and that most limit players fail to realize just how important it is. They think that since in limit play the best hand will invariably have to get shown down at the end, position is therefore unimportant. Making the best hand is the most important thing. However, the player with position will make fewer mistakes during the hand. Period. End of story. If you played the same hand over and over, you would win more often and with more chips in the pot when you have position than when you don't.
We're obviously talking about a marginal situation here. Raising with JJ or QQ in the small blind is not a HUGE mistake, especially if you can realize when the flop has killed you without having to put in too many bets. If you choose not to raise, it's obviously not going to kill you either, but I think it's a SLIGHTLY more profitable play long run and that is how to beat limit hold'em, grabbing slight edges wherever you can find them.
natedogg
Let's see if we agree that it is the nature of pocket jacks that they are worth a raise against multiple limpers, generally. Unlike small pairs, suited connectors or Axs, which are do-or-die depending on the flop, jacks are powerful hands before the flop and profit therefore by raising.
The issue is whether this remains true when jacks are out of position.
I think we can agree that JJ in the big blind is a profitable hand. If, for example, a friend offered to purchase your pocket-jacks-in-the-blind-vs.-the-field after the first round of betting but before the flop, offering, say, one small bet (or less than the cost of a raise), I think you'd turn him down. You'd point to the 7 small bets in the pot and note that nearly half the time the flop will be undercards or give you a set or better.
So what is it about the bigger pot that makes the hand less profitable? You and Gator keep talking about position, but raising doesn't have any effect on your position. Indeed, raising might ameliorate instead of exacerbate your positional disadvantage by increasing the chance that someone will bet late if you check the flop, allowing you to check-raise and drive out several hands that, collectively, you'd like to get rid of. Raising can also force your opponents to give you a modicum of respect, so that and early QT might be more reluctant to call your bet on a 952 flop, fearing that it's draw is no good, whereas before he'd put you on a 9 or a 5.
The only argument against raising therefore has nothing to do with position, but the size of the pot. You'd have to say: "raising increases the pot size by an amount that will induce drawing hands to call that would otherwise fold to such an extent that you'll win more than several small bets if you foregoe the raise.
I think that's a very tough argement to make.
I think David Sklansky was the first to suggest that raising with QQ/JJ in the blind after limpers might be wrong. However, in the example he gave there are 8 limpers, and he qualified his advice by saying that you "probably" shouldn't raise.
I completely agree that raising in the BB is not a -EV play. It is a marignal profit hand as i've been saying all along.
To say that JJ is powerful before the flop is not always true. The value of JJ declines as more opponents enter the hand. Against 1 or 2 players you are good. Even then the value of the hand is directly related to how well you pay post flop. Face it, more than half the time an overcard will flop, how will you know if that's the one that hit your opponent? (A: position) Against 7 more, what you have is a drawing hand.
"Raising can also force your opponents to give you a modicum of respect, so that and early QT might be more reluctant to call your bet on a 952 flop, fearing that it's draw is no good, whereas before he'd put you on a 9 or a 5. "
I want a call on the flop with JJ from QT here.
"The only argument against raising therefore has nothing to do with position, but the size of the pot. You'd have to say: "raising increases the pot size by an amount that will induce drawing hands to call that would otherwise fold to such an extent that you'll win more than several small bets if you foregoe the raise. "
ChrisVWH explains this nicely below; you are not giving up the small bets now, but putting them on lay-away for bigger bets when you hit.
It has everything to do with position. I don't know how else to explain it.
Consider this: I would check JJ in the BB with 7 limpers nearly every time. I would raise JJ on the button nearly every time with 7 limpers.
If you could tell me why I would do this, you would then realize the huge difference that position has on the way you play your cards and the profit you can extract from them.
Gator,
Do you understand the concept of overlay?
- Andrew
natedog,
While no-fold'em simulation results do not define the play of poker very well, they are a very useful tool if you know how to use them. The next best thing is a detailed analysis of the decision tree you'll face. And even better is actual simulation results.
None of those options includes the kind hand waving arguments that Gator is making. I may be a bit stubborn about this, but I think it's good to know how important the concept of fair share is. I used to have trouble with it myself.
There's also a more subtle concept at work here. That is: position in the big blind. Preflop the big blind is the one that has position over everyone else. If you sacrafice your raising option with these strong hands, then you are giving up your transient positional advantage. Another thing is that position is less important in large multiway pots, which is exactly what we are talking about. So you should make your move when you have position.
- Andrew
It's true that JJ wins enough that a raise from the BB would be profitable it it put everyone all-in at that point. However, by just checking you give up a little preflop value in order to get both better preflop value and a better chance of winning the pot AND a better chance of seeing where you stand early in the pot. Plus nobody has any idea what you hold. It's not 6 bets that you're giving up preflop either, or anything even close to it. It's probably not even one small bet. I think you get that back with interest because you can manipulate the players postflop a lot more easily.
Chris
You have the best hand almost always - the only argument for not raising pre-flop and giving up a share of 6SBs is that your opponents will make mistakes greater than the value of the extra bets.
A statistic: assuming that there are 2 or 3 overcards out there, an overcard will hit the flop 50% of the time. Is keeping the pot small going to stop A9s betting or raising when the Ace hits the flop? If an overcard hits you are probably beaten, at least by raising pre flop you give yourself a chance of taking down the pot by representing the overcard good kicker. By pre flop raising this only needs to work once in 11 attempts to be profitable although you may have to bet the turn as well. If the flop does not appear to go your way, I cannot see how your opponents could make mistakes to the value of the pre-flop bets. Even if you hit a set, your opponents have weak cards and will be wary on the expensive streets.
Let's look at the 50% when the flop contains no overcards. If you only call pre-flop you can either choose to bet out in the hope that an early position player will raise for you or check raise (some one will probably bet). The raiser or bettor will probably be making a mistake, but not to the value of 6 SBs
If you raise pre-flop the tactics will be exactly the same, but there is far more chance of a late position bet because the pot is bigger and far less chance that another player will raise if you bet out. Check raising is a far better strategy to thin the field from your early position which is now your objective, as the mistakes have already been made and you want to take the money.
So I can't see where the mistakes come from when you don't raise.
This is very interesting discussion. I suggest to start (remove) it at Holdem/General section. It would be bad to misss David's+Mason's+Jim's+others stars' opinion too. I think that they do not read Internet section closely enough.
Zbych,
This has to do with the bot thread below. I myself, have posted in the past that I um uncertain of the ethical implications of running bots. I don't really see a problem with using bots as shills but since Paradise regularly has hundreds of players, why would they run bots? I think that running a bot for house profit and not informing the players is unscroupulous. On the other hand, I don't think a programmed player can regularly beat a decent thinking one, and am quite happy to play against bots. I haven't played any poker software that I couldn't have my way with. This may be due in part to have studied poker as well as earning a degree in computer programming.
That being said, I have found that the low limit games at Paradise can easily be beaten following a few basic strategy guidelines. As I programmer, I am fairly certain I could code a basic program that would play online for me, guesstimating a profit of $1 an hour at the $1-2 game (accounts for flaws) this would be about $175 a week ($350 if I code it to handle two tables at a time) for just leaving my computer on. (I have plenty of proccessing power and bandwidth that running Paradise consumes litte resources.)
As the spokesman of Highlands, would you be opposed to a player running this type of program from thier account at your site?
PS. If you are certain that Paradise does run bots why was it a poor marketing strategy to exploit this? Other than it may piss them off and run a similar add saying "PLAY AGAINST HONEST PLAYERS NOT HACKERS" ;)
Gator==First, let me say that the imlication that there are hackers in highlands is not so. We are the ones that found the hackers and told everybody about it and closed our site, spent a lot of money to make the site secure. Do you think that the hackers can't break into other sites? PP also closed and beefed up its security--nobody else did. As far as the bots are concerned, its obvious you are way out of my league when it comes to computors. I would like to see you send bots to highlands that could win--frankly, I don't believe you can do it, but I've been wrong many times in my life. Good luck!==Doyle www.highlandsclub.com
Doyle, that comment about hackers was funny, did you miss the smiley face? Really, it was a good joke, lighten up.
I have tremendous respect for the way your site handled that situation, and I followed it daily, even though I have never played at highlands. Do I think there aren't hackers at other sites? No way. With a 1000 something players at Paradise right now, I'll bet there's at least one working as we speak. Are Highlands and Planet still suceptible to an invasion? Bet on that one too. Is this a good reason not to play? About as good a reason as it is not to fly because planes crash. I'll be flying out to Vegas this summer. The concern here should be damage control, and Highlands showed integrity and honesty. I think Planet was a little deceptive, but proper. Paradise, who knows, but I don't have anything bad to say about thier customer service yet.
Could I send a bot to win at Highlands? I'm not sure if you are confused as to what this means, but technically speaking, I could write a program that runs on my machine that looks at my cards, looks at the board and simply pushes the call, raise or fold buttons as I would do. Having it beat the game is another question. I don't know how good the low limit players at highlands are. At Paradise low limit, I think it would be simple, the players (bots?) aren't very good. I don't think it work work as well at higher limits where the players have thier heads up. The whole point is this my not be ethical or moral, because even if I was a perfect player, in real life I would get tired, go on tilt, make errors....., but my online bot ever would, making it unfair.
On a different note, at one point I did download and register at Highlands, but the software was a dissapointment. Frankly, I'm 24, I grew up on video games, pay the $50 a month for high speed network internet access and with Paradise available, it's hard to play anywhere else. When is Highlands going to get better software (are they?) And yes, I do worry occasionally as my account with Paradise grows how safe my money is. I'd probably feel safer at Planet or Highlands, but I enjoy playing at Paradise more. I think I speak for a lot of players when I say that if you could compete with the speed and looks of Paradise software, you will get a lot of thier business.
regarding HIGHLANDS software,no, it is not as good as paradise,s,is it going to get better,yes,they will have much better software before the end of 2001.you express your concern about you money as your account grows at paradise,i won't comment on that because i don't know,however i do know a lot of the owners of highlands,and all i can say is i wish my account their had a couple of zero's on the end of it as i know there would be no concern about getting any or all of my money fed-ex the next day,and they pay the fed-ex charge.Also,they give away have a monthly tournament,where they give away,no strings whatsoever other than be in their list of top 100 players going by # of hands played that month,over $5,000.00 the 1st tuesday of each month.They also have a bad beat jackpot of almost $40,000.00,which when it reaches $50,000.00[grows at rate of about $500.00 per day]other jackpots more readily hit will be added to the big one that,which will still continue to grow.It seems that with all these extra's,maybe a person could forgive their software for awhile not being as good as Paradise's,and maybe HIGHLANDS is a pretty good site to be playing on.Look forward to your comment on yhese FACTS,gator.Thanks,a satisfied HIGHLANDS customer.
GATOR,on 3/5 @ 11:56 P.M. I sent in a post actually asking you your opinion on my comments on an earlier post of yours.When you have a chance,please read my post,and let me know if you think my comments have merit.If you don't,then maybe I should be consider playing somewhere other than HIGHLANDS.THANKS,Bruce
I did mean to respond, but I got cauht up in a JJ controversy.
I most likely will play at Highlands when they get better software.
For now the freeroll tourneys, and the chance to play against Doyle, is enticing, but with school in session, I don't have the time to play as much needed to qualify in the top100 (I assume this is true).
Bad beat jackpots are nice, but have little influence on my choice of game. Is there an extra rake that subsidizes the jackpot? If so, that to me would be a bad thing.
I mostly enjoy playing the daily tournamnets at Paradise now, does Highlands plan to have this type of game?
Also how do you know, and how much better, will the Highlands software be, before the end of 2001?
You are missing the big picture regarding bots.The poker sites software can be written so that the bots win.In other words it's not the skill of the bots but a function of the game software that assures them a win.
Fish 3d===thats scary. Do you know what you are talking about? Wow!==Doyle Brunson
Very, very scary, and very easy to do with the proper motivation. Is the motivation there? I don't think so. I have done nothing but build my account there. Lots of other players report similar success.
I would find it hard to believe that you could code a simple bot that could beat a low limit game. I have a degree in Engineering and I know this isn't easy. If you go to the University of Alberta's web page there are people doing their master's on building a computer player. Ask them if it is easy.
Also, if you coded something that could win in low limit the rules would be relatively easy to pick up. Eventually even low limit players will pick up on the patterns and figure out how to best them.
Just my opinion
Derrick
If by 'bot' you mean an automated player belonging to the host that controls the poker software, then of course a bot could win. Like fish3d said above, it would be trival to give this kind of bot a little help from the shuffling section of the software program. This is what would concern me if the sites are using bots.
But gator, what makes you think Paradise uses bots? Is there any way you think you can discern a bot from a flesh and blood player?
I know the host could have an edge if he/she knew the shuffle etc, but from what I understood fish3d to say is that he could program his own automated player that only got to see his cards. I could build a macro program that simulated mouse clicks of fold, call, raise, but I feel adding intelligence to these clicks is what would be VERY difficult.
Derrick Ashworth
Actually, I never said I think Paradise uses bots. Doyle stated in this thread that he heard from a reliable source that they do use bots to start the games. I have no evidence to substantiate or disavow that comment. I lean toward accepting the idea that it is true, based on Doyles reputation and actions when it comes to integrity.
You have to decide for yourself on that issue. I almsost feel like e-mailing paradise support and asking about this, just to see how they respond.
"Also, if you coded something that could win in low limit the rules would be relatively easy to pick up. Eventually even low limit players will pick up on the patterns and figure out how to best them."
Sadly, yes and no. To beat the low limits at Paradise, the guidelines would only need to be very simple, and yes, easy to pick up. However, if you have ever played the .5/1 game at Paradise, you would know that the players just don't get, and if they do, they don't care, they just want to win hands or beat you. I swear I can only play pocket Aces and Kings and still get action. Just playing premium cards and flop or fold, not paying any attention to the other players tendencies, will collect the money. It works for me now, I don't see why I couldn't make it work for the bot. Also if you played that limit for any time, you will notice that every hour, you are lucky to see one or two of the same players at your table.
There is no way that I think I can code a program to beat any better player by myself at this point in my education, and when/if I could my objective wouldn't be to beat Paradise 3/6, I'd be marketing the software you know.
Go to "www.hotpoker.com/beta/" the shills here or bots have a predictable pattern. Some tight aggressive, weak passive some straight up, and others horrible calling stations. Once you mastered the predictable patterns of the bots you can almost know where you are with the players pos.EV.
offcourse low limit is beatable. why do you think it is LOW limit. because it consists of poor recreational players who have nothing better to do with their time.. but as for my self and for other players i have been talking too, there are other cardrooms who offer low limit that are far easier to beat than PP.
and as for tournies I have to agree with prev poster...move to 10 usd tournament 5 only pays off a maksimum off 19usd witch is not great ...ten is much better...
John
"LOW limit" online is a bit deceiving.
Sure, there are many players who hear about Paradise or another online poker site and invest $100 and play VERY poorly. But these players end up broke and disillusioned about online play.
The losers tend to come up with the conspiracy theories as an excuse for their losses and stay away from the sites. I am NOT saying that these players played poorly, although some (most?) surely have. Fluctuation in poker is very normal, and it amazes me that most people don't understand that the "BAD BEAT" they just received was 60% likely to happen with so many people contesting the pot.
Anyway, after the losers quit, what we have left are the better players. Even at the lower limits, you will find players who may normally play $10-$20 (or even higher) in casinos. Why is that?
Firstly, many more hands are dealt per hour and (on Paradise) you can play two tables at the same time, thus significantly increasing your win or LOSS rate.
Secondly, many (most?) players, even though they play online, have a general distrust of Internet poker. I fall into this catagory. I (almost) fully trust the management of Paradise Poker. I think they run a good poker room. However, player collusion is just too easy. I do not know the extent of Paradise's security measures to prevent player collusion, and they understandably do not wish to reveal most of their methods. So I remain skeptical about this aspect of online poker and avoid the higher limits, as this would be where the most and most effective collusion would take place.
Thirdly, (as noted by another poster, and this makes sense), many of the players online ARE poor and don't have money to burn. Some are college students and many are assuredly not of legal gambling age. They tighten up significantly because of this, and play a tight passive game. While it is possible to beat these types of games, you won't beat them for much, as players will usually have hands when they stay in.
****** On a similar note, live 3-6 and 4-8 games in my area are easier to beat hand-for-hand than Paradise Poker's 3-6.
just for fun gator, how many 20 tournies habe u played??
how many 1st 2nds and 3rds u got??
same for 5s and 10s tournies
Last time I anayzed the results was after 200 tournaments a month or so ago. I've only played between 10-20 tournaments since then, and haven't kept a record.
After 200, the majority of them were $20 games, there was a good amount of $10 and few $5 ones. I played two $30 T.
1st...22x 2nd....23x 3rd....19x
4th and 5th place amounted to 90 something places
I was up a little over $500 at that time. Add another $300 to that for tourney fees (money won but you gotta pay to play). In raked games it's hard to really know what you are paying, but when I broke it down and saw how much Paradise gets from me in entry fees alone, I was like damn.
I lost my log file last month changing back and forth between Win2000 and Me, so I don't have the exact numbers or results, this is just from memory. I started writing a program in VB to keep stats, but got sidetracked with real homework.
am I just plain wrong or are you losing money playing these tournaments??
if all were 10s you would be paying a total of 2000usd for all of these together.. and your prices amount to about 1100 for 1st. 660 for 2nds 380 for 3rds
doesnt this mean that you loose money in tournaments when you consider the "tax"??
yeah, you are just plain wrong. If you add all these up, and they were just $10 games, my buy-ins would have been $2200 and payouts would be $2170. A $30 loss, however, like I said most were $20 games, which changes the math. For instance, if two were $20 games, and both won, that would change to a net profit of $192. Like I said, I was up around $500 from these tournaments at that point, coming in the money around 1:4 games. Hope that clears it up.
ok i get it.
but would you not make more money playing 1/2 or even 0.5/1??
i mean winning 200 dollars isnt much when you take into account the hours you spent....
Well, I won around $500 (not $200) from these tournaments at that time. If I played each Tourney for 45 min (gross overestimation since they only take about this long, and I did not go all the way in the majority of them) that would be 150 hours of play. $500 profit = $3.33 /hr. That compares pretty good to what you can make at $1-2, and probably tops what you can make at .5/1 Keep in mind $1-2 wasn't even available at Pardise when I started.
$$$$/hr is not my primary motivation at this point ($3 an hour is wasted time, if you are only trying to make money considering I could simply get a job for $7 an hour)
I find the tourneys to be more of a challenge. I think they require more strategy, timing, thinking and observation than the side games. Even the weakest players manage to play a little better in a tournaments since they can't rebuy and it's not for quarters. These are the skills I want to and am learning to develop.
I think I NOW understand why you are so reluctant to raise with JJ from the big blind now. You are a tournament player. It's *not* correct to raise during a PP tourny after the first (maybe second) level of blinds.
Of course, ring games and tournaments are different.
- Andrew
Dear Desire,
I DESIRE YOU! Drop me an email, please at RBransonnn@aol.com. I have something for your ears only about PP. Hope to hear from you soon.
Do you know what she or he look like?
I bet it's proof that we never landed on the moon!
Have things gotten so bad that you must meet women online?
in case you skipped over "Re: Caro, Badger et al- Legality of internet" from a few days earlier..
Since y'all have written about playing on the internet sites... are there any IRS or other legal concerns that you've run into with claiming wins/losses from there?
A few words from 'the inventor' of the JJ thread over at the internet forum (I need to take some credit here, as my idol Angelina gave credit to the pro-"raise-jacks-in-BB" players.
As for position Natedogg and Gator, you talk about raising JJ UTG. I might do that, too, but then surely a raise in the BB with JJ must be routine. Don't give me the "Small favourite, big dog" talk about a situation when five or six players have limped to your BB, where you hold JJ. They have all partly exposed their hands. An early player MAY be limping with AA, but I'd even say that a limp-reraise here will more often come from a mid-limper now realising that his 98s could be raised for value.
Lets turn the situation to JJ UTG. How do you play a re-raise (don't know the odds, but I think against random cards you'd be up against an overpair or AKs at least one in five)? What flop would you then be comfortable with? You will also be likely to have worst position this time too.
Just answer this simple question:
What situation would you be more comfortable raising in?
JJ in BB against six limpers or JJ UTG.
Go deep into yourself and find the answer.
Let me just ramble on a bit more...I'd say that you could even cap JJ six-handed vs. a limp-reraise. Coming in with a raise with JJ UTG, you will very rarely get a situation so good that you'll be happy to cap it vs. a reraise.
I think my favourite three situations with JJ UTG (I'll agree it's a raise) are: 1. Heads-up, no reraise, with BB, probably dominating him. 2. Heads-up, no reraise, with one other player, BB laying down, possibly not dominating my opponent, but 99% certain a favourite. 3. Stealing the blinds.
Comments?
lars
n/t
Since online poker has different nuances vs. live play. Is anyone writing a book on playing online poker? Seems like an oppurtunity for next Sklansky, Malmuth, or Caro to be born.
that sounds like a good idea norskie and i bet that there is one right around the corner.. from gator perhaps :)
It's a book about Paradise Poker
I proposed this book once before. Still waiting to see if John Patrick will pen the foreword.
I might have to go into hiding like Salman Rushdie if it gets published. I hear that those Costa Rican Mafia guys that run the joint are some bad mofo's.
on the "UPER Wining Non-Random Poker for Advanced Players for Ultra Advanced Players"
This pretty much has the same topics as "Wining Non-Random Poker for Advanced Players" but more on Money Mgnt on how to lose LESS with his conservative System compared to everybody else.
I can't remember a single instance of varying my play compared to what I'd do in a casino. The handful of posts I've read that suggested some different way of playing have struck me as being completely wrong.
The only significant difference between online and live play is speed, which creates greater fluctuations, especially if you play two tables. You can't observe as much, but it's more convenient to write things down. Players are more patient online, but some of the tilt faster. Hardcore live ones and maniacs burn out faster. The hand histories are great. The cost of playing low limit is lower. It's easier to be patient. But none of this has anything to do with how you should play.
How can higher speed create greater fluctuations??
Playing two tables should, mostly, lower the fluctuations, I believe, although I can't say I'm 100% sure.
But how speed can make the fluctuations greater sounds very strange...
Because when we speak of "fluctuations" we mean how much results can vary from a mean during a short period of time, typically an hour or a few hours.
If you have a certain hourly variance when playing 30 hands an hour, you'd expect your hourly variance to increase if you played 60 hands an hour, just as one's variance over 2 hours of 30-hand play is greater than during one hour. For example, in typical $10-20 without usuing a stop-loss limit, it's hard for a winning player to lose $2,500 in one session but not hard to lose that amount during several sessions or a few bad weeks. Online, these times are compressed.
On the other hand, it probably takes fewer online hours to hit a true hourly rate or long-term hourly standard deviation. So during some intermediate period of time your fluctuations are probably lower.
Someone who knows their math could explain this better.
Well, I guess it's just a matter of words. I think we actually agrees on the substance. If you measure the fluctuations, or variance, per hour, of course it can be greater if more things happen in that hour.
But to me time is of no importance when it comes to variance. The important thing is the average ups and downs, and not how long these ups and downs take. Who cares if I go broke in one hour or two? I just don't want to go broke, period.
I looked up variance in my probability textbook (I never finished the course, though...), and it was defined (somewhat) like I expected, namely how far away from it's mean value a random variable is on the average (for mathematical convenience reasons expressed as E[(X-µ)˛], instead of E[|X-µ|], where X is the random variable, µ its mean value, and E[] the expected value). Time was not mentioned.
Anyway, I don't think you should care about the hourly VARIANCE -- the only hourly measure that matter is how much you win (or lose), I think.
-JDS
By the way (and I think my thinking might have been a little fuzzy here when I wrote the above), the "variance per hour" would of course be exactly the same as the variance. It's only the worst/best cases (hours) that get worse/better at higher speeds -- other hours get closer to the mean value (µ), and cancel out the worst/best hours. And I don't think we should be concerned with the worst cases.
-JDS
If you're beating the game, the only significance of the greater variance is the possible need a larger bankroll and to be prepared for what appears to be unusually bad luck in the short-term.
Weak players should expect to lose faster than they do in a casino, although they'll sometimes win more money faster than they ever have before.
Gator, stick to attacking women, boy. And don't step foot in a real poker room. You'd get beat down quick. Keep playing your fifty cents online games and thinking you know everything. We regulars can't wait to get you know it alls in a real game.
what are you 16?
You are a moron. Thanks for being so civilized. God, I wonder what kind of worm takes the time to post "what are you 16." God, I hope I never end up like you.
YOUR posts - seems you like to get the last word in. Persoanlly I find sexual name calling rather silly, espicially when the guy is trying to show how brave and tough he is.
Then YOU come along and defend him. I'd put you in the same class.
I can't stand gator. But you are even more despicable for fueling the fire with some half witted age reference. It still burns me that someone out there is that big of a loser to type "what are you 16."
"God, I wonder what kind of worm takes the time to post "what are you 16."
I wonder what kind of worm wastes thier timing posting that crap to a post they accuse of being a waste of time and crap??
"It still burns me that someone out there is that big of a loser to type "what are you 16."
what type of loser posts the same crap a SECOND TIME to tell someone they are a loser.
"God, I hope I never end up like you. "
You are already worse bitch.
five foot nothing, 100 and nothing and not a speck of athletic ability
Ha! 6'4", 235 and frequent baller. Hope for your sake, your deduction abilities are better across the table.
Which one of you sorry girls want to play around with Daddy' O first.
I am not offended armed with the knowledge that if we were acually in a real card room, you would not have the stones to call me a pussy to my face. I would straight up, knock you the fuck out; and I'd wait untill I beat you for your bankroll at the table first.
Have a nice day.
interesting table and would certainly liven up the place. LOL
n/t
Gator,thank you for your response.I just know the software is going to be better by the end of 2001,how much better,and how,I can't answer.Maybe once in awhile you could log on and play a few minutes of free play and check it out for yourself. Concerning the extra rake for the jackpot,yes there is a nominal one.Out of every hand played,25 cents is raked from the pot and goes 100% to the jackpots,and HIGHLANDS adds $25.00 every day to the jackpots.So if you play and win,say 40 hands in a day,then it will have cost you $10.00 that day[I think a small price to pay at any limit,seeing as the jackpot is right near $40,000]. For the free roll tournament of $5,000 each month,your assumption is correct that you must have been in the top 100 in number of hands played for the month.[this is tracked by the computer and updated every day so a person can see where he or she stands on the list for the month]. As for the daily tournaments you asked about,HIGHLANDS just started a $110 buy-in tournament every Thursday night that starts at 9:00 P.M. Eastern time.Their plan is to begin running more such similar tournaments very soon. Hope this has answered most of your questions.
What kind of PC I need to play Paradise Poker. I have an iMac and I am having problems unloading from PP. Help.
I have an iMac OS9 and I can't download from Paradise Poker. Is anybody using this PC with PP? Any help will be appreciated.
Its definitly not possible to play on PP with Mac, but you can use virtual PC, a software which "transform" your imac in a PC; it works well for PP
re
are you planning to have multi table tournaments at affordable buy ins (like paradise with 20s and 30s)?? will you consider adding a 1/2 holdem table like planet and paradise?? futhermore I would just like to compliment you on the free roll tournament. Thats a big edge to you guys. IT ROCKS!!! (to Texdolly) Am i mistaken or did your name disappear from the top 100 players list a few days before the end of feb?? why??
Dolye Brunson told in this forum that PP uses robots in their table and he mentioned that robots cannot beat human players.
First, I Do think a decent poker program beats humen in limit holdem-- maybe not in no limit at least not yet. I remember when IBM computer beat the world chess champion. Yes, I agree that chess has complete open variables--that is every possible variables are on the table--and poker is incomplete. However, with recent technological development in AI--isnt Furgusson(spell) has Ph.D in AI--, I believe computer will beat human players constantly in long run especially bad players. Second, therefore, if PP uses decent computer program, everybody is losing money who plays in PP. Actually we all lose our money to PP no matter what. Some of us just make more money from other players.
Third, maybe some of PP players not PP company itself uses robots to make money out there. 1BB per hour generator 24 hours a day--sounds good to me. I should design one. I think algorism is already out there.
Just my thought.
Currently, the best computer poker programs can beat average human players. A group in Ontario (as noted elsewhere on this forum) has been developing a program for years that has proven results. This program is the result of practically full-time research and development of three or four individuals.
However, I don't believe a "decent" or even a "good" bot could consistently beat human opponents. The amount of time required to program a bot sophisticated enough to play poker well would be enormous. Turbo Texas Holdem (presumably a full-time effort of a programming team?) is a "good" program, but it doesn't learn from it's mistakes, and I think it would start losing money around the 3-6 or 5-10 level.
I emailed support@paradisepoker.com and asked them about using bots. Here is their reply:
*************************** Thank you for your email and giving us the opportunity to address your questions. First, let me emphatically state that Paradise has never used, nor will it ever, shills or bots of any kind.
Let me assure you that we are in no way participating in any of the games except to ensure they are conducted under the fairest and most ethical conditions. Our business is built on providing all our players a safe, fair, secure and enjoyable environment to play poker.
We are by far the largest online poker room in the world and have a stellar reputation in the poker community. Without our reputation our business would fail. In order for us to be successful we need to grow our client base and have positive word of mouth, this could never be accomplished if the games were not totally fair and honest. We make all our money from providing the games and our greatest incentive is to make sure all players are playing in a totally honest and fair environment. Our security with respect to our shuffling algorithms is superior in the industry. We use the internationally accepted industry standard SSLv3/TLSv1 encryption algorithm. I urge you to please read our Integrity pages with respect to shuffling and random number generation at http://www.paradisepoker.com/shuffling.html and http://www.paradisepoker.com/rng.html . We take great pride in offering our players a safe and secure environment to play.
We have in all honesty received overwhelming positive responses from our players and we also have, as all poker rooms have, our fair share of winning players and losing players. We have NO house or shills players. The concept of us risking our business the sweep a few pots is absolutely crazy if you look at the long run profits we make by running the cleanest best run poker room on the Internet. We are here for the long run and we will continue to do everything within our power to provide the best and safest poker room on the Internet (or maybe even the world).
Would you expect any other answer be it " true or untrue " ? LOL
Of course not, BUT...
Nevermind
Funny that John M posted the response from Paradise. I got the same EXACT response from Paradise last August when I was barred from playing there. I too questioned the use of bots as well as the true randomness of there RNG. I find it amusing that Paradise has to use a standard pre-written response to all the less than positive comments they receive. It looks like they must get a lot.
Why were you barred from playing there? Were you colluding? (LOL)
Texas Holdem is infinitely less complex than a chess game.
In a way, you are correct...
If the computer was playing an opponent who never varied his/her style, it could calculate an exact strategy for a specific situation given enough time and computing power.
However, when you place this computer into a game with nine opponents who all think and act differently for different reasons, suddenly POKER is infinitely more complex.
Eventually, computers may be able to calculate every move of a chess game to the end. Opponents' playing styles make no difference in this game. The computer plays the same against every opponent.
A limiting factor of all commercial poker programs today is that the computer plays against different opponents in the exact same manner with no adjustment for opponents' tendencies. We all know that in poker you "play your opponents, not your cards." (Well, I guess you really better play your cards as well unless you're Doyle Brunson in a no-limit game on the button...)
Chess has well-defined moves that lead to well-defined situations (ie losing a piece, checkmate, etc.).
Poker is a game of imperfect information and is so rich in potential applications to other fields (economics, politics, anything with unknown variables) that people are receiving funds to study it.
I would like to see the poker algorithm you are refering to. How can a single algorithm apply to all the combinations of a hold-em game.
Take a look at the University of Alberta's home page and look for the poker 'player' they are trying to build. This is a team of Master's students and PHD students. If you think it is easy give it a try.
Just my opinion.
Derrick Ashworth
Sorry I did not read GATORs post before i post my last post--shut, my english sucks..
anyway, however i do beleive progams can beat human.
In poker, not yet. There are programs that can beat the fish, though.
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
Slovenia
My point exactly in an earlier post, I believe Doyle would crush a bot in a game, but little ol'e rookie me would probably be badly beaten.
The thing is, many "new / amateur / just starting out" players use internet gambling to get some experience.
That's why bots would be so terrible, they can scare away inexperienced players - which would hurt recruitment to the poker community in general.
There are no legal poker rooms in my country, so to get experience playing 7 stud I have to use internet poker rooms.
I thought the "play money" feature at PP would allow me to get experience but playing there is like a lottery with all the amateurs routinely going to the river ;-)
I decided I'd worsen as a player playing for play money so I staretd playing low limit real money games instead. Something which I think is turning out good for me, I'm getting experience against human players, I'm making all the mistakes ( and hopefully learning from them ), and it's great fun too even if the players there are terribly loose too.
If I start out playing bots I'd never get the experience I need to play against real life players and I'd probably loose my money and with it my interest in the game.
I agree with you blue eyes, but then I also look at it this way - If I can resist the temptation to go on tilt in PP on play money tables, then I'm better off for it when I hit live games. So think of the play money tables as a lesson in self discipline.
LOL
Doyle is a no limit player. His loose style of play would get ate alive in a limit game. Now no limit is another fish to fry. But we all know there are no no limit games on the net.
I'm sure Doyle can hold his own in a limit game...
Heh - I wouldn't wanna go up against Doyle in a 2/4 7 stud game - I think he'd eat me alive ;-)
There is at least one program that can beat average players...
This is something I have been racking my brain over the last month or two.I have been watching the heads up tables for a while.I have noticed that the overall winners play very similar.They play about 95% of all hands.A raise on the button is almost guaranteed.As well if they are reraised they reraise back.Betting on flush draws,backdoor flush draws,straight draws,gutshot straight draws,overcard draws is a given.As well these players will also raise and reraise with these draws.They basically play about as aggressive as you can possibly get.These same players go in when they are dominated (eg. AK vs AQ) -yet their AQ comes out smelling like a rose.Now I say to myself -the guy is just getting lucky.But after thinking about ,I wonder if he really is.Maybe these fluke out hands cause their opponents to misplay future hands.Maybe these players think that they will be able to steal more pots and make more than enough money to cover the hands that they are dominated with and lose.Maybe that is where their profit in playing hyper aggressive lies.There is about 5-6 players on paradise who only play 10-20 headsup or shorthanded 10-20,15-30,20-40.I personally know one of these players and I can honestly say that I cant figure out how he does it.Maybe he is just fluking out for the last 6-7 months.But I beginning to doubt that-especially heads up or shorthanded -where skill is supposed to be a more important factor.I will not mention any handles but anyone who plays heads up on paradise will know who the players I am talking about are.I really would like to know what other readers on this forum think about all this.Most holdem books do not cover topics like this.Are these players getting lucky or playing correctly shorthanded and headsup?
What you are observing is frequently the correct strategy. One book that covers much of this is the 21st Century edition of Hold 'em Poker For Advanced Players. We spend a great deal of time talking about why super aggressive players can get an automatic edge by just betting every round, and what you need to do to defend against this strategy. You may want to give it a look.
That is a very interesting topic, and short-handed play(especially heads-up) is a skill that is almost totally separate from regular action.
Heads-up play is like a boxing match. You want your opponent constantly back-pedaling. Against a super-aggressive player like you mention, you either have to outslug him, and hope your cards are better, or vary your defenses so often that he starts swinging at air. They're usually easier to play because you don't have to pay them off a few times early to find out what they're playing. You know they play everything.
That being said, when the deck hits these maniacs, you can take a brutal short-term beating. And defensing them can be tough. You can't afford to wait and trap, because you'll lose just too many blinds and early bets folding your garbage or when the flop doesn't hit you (not to mention you'll be an easy read every time you're in for the turn). The implied odds aren't there to chase much of anything. And when you end up battling back at him, like you said, it always seems to be the time when he has a hand, or hits his draw. So what do you do? I guess you read Sklansky & Malmuth.
I agree with Bob, and read HFAP on the subject....then DON'T BOTHER PLAYING. I don't think headsup limit holdem has much of a point to it. The math isn't there, it devolves into a lucky hand game, you might as well be playing black/red on a roulette table or flipping coins...Heads my hand wins, tails you hand wins. This is even more silly online without the information playing face to face brings.
Now, headsup NO LIMIT holdem, that is a whole different story. But noone offers that online yet.
Crazy Jim,
I have spent a little time watching the 1-1 matches on PP. I have got to say that there are some players who seem to always get the money in the end. I have had some moderate success playing the way it says to play in HPFAP in the play money games, I haven't taken the jump into the real money games just yet though (except for a couple grudge matches). Most of the good players that I watch on PP are very very agressive. I am not really sure what the heck happened to him, but LastChance who was one of the more famous players on PP almost always had a heads-up game going when he was playing. I watched him when he played Phil Helmuth and took $1200.00 from him. Quite a match!
According to Mike Caro, heads-up holdem is a game where a computer (or bot) could beat up most human players on a consistent basis if it was programmed correctly.
Where I play locally, there are two players who will play anyone headsup anytime. Most of the time, they start with 1000 each and 25-50 blinds. They buy one rack of white chips for the rake and tipping the dealer. I have railbirded these matches while waiting for a table. These two pro headsup players almost always get the money too. I have watched one of them make 5K in a night taking on 3 different opponents. I don't think he is just getting lucky. It is rather funny to watch people play against him. He is an asian guy and a very nice person...but people get sooo frustrated as their stack steadily goes down and his goes up. I have seen some opponents get a rush of cards against him and he still always gets them in the end. Amazing player. He has been playing headsup poker for 20+ years. Sometimes he lets me sweat his hands. I see some logic in what he does and the way he plays...but to know his entire strategy would probabaly take about 20 years. He has personally told me that he doesn't rely on tells very much.
One of the most powerful things it says in HPFAP is to mentally remove the top card on the board when playing your hand. In other words, if the board is A Q 8 4, pretend the board is really Q 8 4 when making decisions about your holdings. This was one of the first hints he gave me when he started teaching me and letting me sweat his play..and he says he has never read that book.
Anyways..I was just wondering why you think it is a pure luck game. I personally think it requires more skill than regular holdem.
Im no expert but to me, headsup LIMIT holdem is flawed. The math of pot odds virtually doesnt exist. You are always playing 2-1 on your money, regardless of the odds on your hand. On the face it seems pointless, and requires more luck than a 10 handed ring game to turn a good profit.
None of this involves playing a known idiot who you can take to the cleaners with only one holecard ;-)
Yes, interesting, LastChance..he vanished after MathGuy pointed out his 24-7 play and asked if Bot's were possible. Amazingly the next day SarrahConner SPOKE for the first time EVER and stopped playing 24-7.
A friend of mine, who is usually patient, and a decent poker player, but for some reason doesn't have patience to sit at a poker table of 10 and grind....played heads up on Paradise for quite a while, and lost about $5K at it. I kept after him that it was stupid but he just wouldnt listen. He played 10-20 headsup and just kept loosing, I just couldnt understand it, I've never understood getting hooked on a BAD thing, a good thing yes but a BAD thing, where is the positive feedback?
Now, headsup NO LIMIT holdem, that is a whole different thing. At Foxwoods there are people who play heads up, grudge matches, etc, but they play pot limit or no limit, they DONT play limit.
The questionable play was from Orsson, Lefranc, EmptyHouse and SarrahConnor. I never said anything unusual about LastChance.
That's right, my memory was foggy.
. I don't think headsup limit holdem has much of a point to it. The math isn't there, it devolves into a lucky hand game, you might as well be playing black/red on a roulette table or flipping coins...Heads my hand wins, tails you hand wins. This is even more silly online without the information playing face to face brings.
not true. there is definately skillz involve, buddy. the key is to be fearless, not reckless and to play your opponent. obviouly, there r some opponent we must avoid. bitchass
Online you cant see your opponent, exactly how are you "playin" him? Online loses the human aspect that lets you read people, so much of what makes up your "skillz" is missing. Not to mention LIMIT vs NO LIMIT heads up allows you in nolimit to amplify the impact of your "skillz" greatly.
Limit holdem headsup is just two pairs of hands showing down to see which is best, you can just as easily use a coin. If you think online you have "skillz" large enough to bea thte rake and your opponents headsup for hours on end, you are DELUDING yourself.
I'll play anyone heads up no limit holdem face to face, but thats it. I like my $ too much to waste it otherwise.
Of course there is technical skill involved. If you can get a read on the technical mistakes an opponent is making, you can use that information to win (more) money from him/her.
Since the technical details of 1-on-1 poker doesn't seem to be as known (at least publicly) as full-table poker, I guess more and bigger technical mistakes are more common 1-on-1, and hence bigger edges can be gained by the few truly knowledgable players.
Online you don't read people (as much), but instead read their game. At least that's my read on things, never having played in real life! My understanding is also that the top players have to rely mostly on technical skill rather than tells, since top players simply have learned not to be very readable tell-wise. But of course I could be completely wrong, being a total beginner myself!
So don't play your opponent -- play his game! Limit 1-on-1 hold 'em being just two hands showing down is plainly silly! That must be two really bad players!
The rake issue I don't know anything about, though.
I am very happy (and amazed) to report the following:
A dear friend from Ljubljana, a young student of my brother's, plays $1-2 and $2-4 at Paradise under the nick "always ultra".
I saw him go all-in with his last $4 yesterday to win the hand with a K high straight flush.
Today, after about 8 hours of play, he is sitting there with $565, no rebuys.
I think he'll be a very good player soon.
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
Angelina:
I too am happy and amazed for your young friend.
However:
Generally over an eight hour stretch, for one to go from $0.00 to $565, one doesn't get their by playing good, sound, tight poker. Generally these huge wins come from loose maniacs hit by the deck.
I'm not suggesting that your friend was playing the loose-maniac style, but in any event, if he was, he has just learned a very destructive poker habit.
If he wasn't then I'm glad you posted his nickname and I will be sure to avoid him. :)
Regardless of his play style, he was on a rush.
Period.
natedogg
how is that even possible??
at what limit??
1/2??
winning 50 an hour???ahmed
perhaps he was playing two tables at once. i had a $250 day the other day playing 1-2 two tables at once. then lost about $150 the next day and won $120 yesterday. then cashed it all out to take a little break, reread hpfap, and do other stuff. by the way ive also had days where ive broken exactly even after playing for hours.
anyways, ive played against this always ultra and noticed he was decent and tight. then when i saw where he was from it didnt surprise me and i promptly left the table. thanks for reminding me to put him on my "avoid" list angelina..
Now tell him to go sit out for a week, because Mr Varience is heading his way BIG TIME soon.
Oh my my. How pleased for you all to meet me. I wish only that myself could be so fortunate. May peacefullness decend upon my truely goodness nature.
give hime two days.
I've played with him a few times and he is pretty good.
At 3:09 a.m. est, "always ultra" playing at the $2/$4, Cocos Islands table, stake.... $19...oops now its $15. I assume all good players would reload by now, unless they are about to go belly up.
Maybe a a good player in the future, maybe a good player now, maybe ramming and jamming two much 7 handed with JJ. (:O) had to slip that in there)
Actually, he did it by buying-in for the minimum (per Izmet's advice), leeching away with his short stack. As you assume "all good players would reload by now", you may find this info interesting:
Going all-in often is an advantage for a player who knows to pick his hands to go all-in with, especially when protecting his's bankroll. I can elaborate per request. Anyway, he is buying-in for $20, leaving the table when he gets to $40 and starting over with $20 again.
So no, it's not gone, always ultra is not broke yet. He is going through some rough times, yes, but his bankroll is still looking good, at $390 right now.
Life is tough at micro limits.
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
Slovenia
"Going all-in often is an advantage for a player who knows to pick his hands to go all-in with, especially when protecting his's bankroll. I can elaborate per request. Anyway, he is buying-in for $20, leaving the table when he gets to $40 and starting over with $20 again."
Are you actually advocating that it is more profitable to play with 5 big bets on the table than it is to be able to play back when you make the best hand and someone raises?
You stated that is is 'often an advantage'. Explain how this advantage outweighs the times when it will cost you money, because if it doesn't then it is long term -EV play and that defines a sucker play.
To defend that in the short term, it protects the bankroll is nonsense. If your banroll can't handle the maximum amounts of bets you shouldn't be in the game. That is playing with scared money.
That aside, I watched that game for a little after posting, and he was busted out of $11 playing 88 up front, and immediately put $100 on the table afterward, so I don't understand your point.
I'm not trying to flame you Angelina, I know you will respond and when you do, you will at least provide some data to back up your opinions, unlike a lot of players around here. I have read your brothers study now (from the JJ thread) and done some pondering about it. I will post my opinion on it later.
I couldn't agree more that life is tough at the micro limits. Last night I came in fourth on three consecutive Paradise $20 tourneys. Each time I busted out, I had the best hand before the flop. Twice I dominated (AK vs A4 and QQ vs 55,) the other time I had AKd vs Q8d. That is a a $60 dollar losing night that easily should have been a $60-240 winnning night. ARRRGHH
Have to agree with Gator here, speculating in all-ins is playing scared money. It also means that he fails to get the max out of his winning hands.
I've seen the same on the 7-stud tables. I once had a guy who had trips ( pair on the board ) check into me on 5th and kept checking to the river. If I had made my draw, which was free, I would have taken his money. As it happended the guy won, but only the puny 3rd/4th street bets.
The players who go all-in several times in a session are quickly shunned by the other players.
Consider the following game of 7stud: you and only you at the table are allowed to buy-in for the ammount of the ante. You do just that, every hand you post your ante, go all-in and watch other players slug it out. Do you see why it would be impossible to lose in such a game?
ROI (return on investment) would be excellent and protecting a wounded bankroll is all about ROI (as opposed to pushing small edges with a huge bankroll and big bets, pumping up the variance to scare the wounded bankrolls).
Sure, hold'em is different, but this basic principle applies to all poker games with blinds or antes. You just need to know what you are doing and *when* to go all-in.
Keep all this hush-hush, Gator, else you will suddenly start noticing micro stacks all around you. Do you think you will like it? Who will you be raising out of your pots then?
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
Ljubljana, Slovenia
Hi, I mean no disrespect but playing like that is not a money making strategy.
First off it's going to get you enemies at the poker table, as all-in speculation is not very popular and it screws up a game.
The All-In rule was designed to protect players from players with larger bankrolls - basically the rule is there to prevent a player rasing another player out of the game ( aka "buying the pot" ).
It's not there to protect players who shouldn't be in the game in the first place.
Secondly you are risking your bankroll, because it becomes cheap for hail mary passes to draw to the river. For instance a 3 straight/flush at 4th or fifth, which would normally cost too much to be worth drawing to ( unless pot odds were excellent ) now draws to the river for free against you. Good starters can be hurt bad by cheap draws, and bad starters can connect at the river.
Also to consider is that such play would minimize not only losses but also winnings - winning the antes and the first round of bets with a house is not optimizing your winnings.
So you strategy for all-in play reduces to nothing more than a lottery, and for that you've got plenty of slotmachines.
It is not a good 7-stud strategy, and your friend will eventually loose all his money. I recommend studying the 7-stud and Holdem books around. I am assuming that your friend is playing poker to A - Have fun and B - Make money.
Duh. It's the way of the leech and I don't do it. It's profitable though and I was asked to explain it.
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
Ljubljana, Slovenia
blue eyes.. your post above about how you keep track of your game proves that you will ultimately be a winner at stud, but i think you have spoken too soon on this topic.
angelina's friend is tutoring under one of the top players in slovenia, izmet fekali. read his hold em poker writings on the web and you will see that he is brilliant. angelina herself is a genius and must win all sorts of money playing 20-40 on paradise.
if you ever read anything on this board you should assume people are talking about hold 'em, not stud or omaha. i think hold em lends itself to a winning shortstack/all-in policy much more so than the ante game of stud. i would like it if angelina were willing to expand a little more on this strategy however.
regards, mike
Hi, thanks for pointing that out to me, I'm not a Hold'em player myself, so I could be mistaken.
In stud it's not a good strategy as it kinda fails one of the precepts of the game, namely to maximize winnings and minimize losses. I've read Theory of Poker and 7 Card Stud for Advanced Players and the all-in strategy mentioned in this thread doesn't seem to fit very well with those.
As a side note, if you're actively using such a strategy your opponents will figure it out and play accordingly - which is not a good thing, especially at the higher limits. At low limits I can pretty much stick to a super tight strategy and people just don't figure it out ;-)
I think people are confusing poker bots with bots using artificial intelligence. Bots using artificial intelligence are what one would build to go head to head with a human being, having been programmed to respond to their actions, i.e. Big Blue, the chess robot that would play against people, responding to their moves with it's own programming strategy. Poker bots are a totally different thing Entirely. Poker bots are bots that were created, code written by the software creator to not do anything but receive favorable cards over the human opponents it is playing against, hence it takes no strategy at all. All it has to do is not fold. It is programmed to call every hand it is favored to win to the end and the money deposits in it's account. So, while there may not be a robot that has the capability of defeating a skilled poker player without help from the code creator, there are definitely bots that will beat anyone that sits across a cyber table, only because the code is written to give them the winning hand. Anyone that says these bots do not exist has never written a computer program.
I don't know a lot about computers so I'm a little confused here. You write about a bot that "All it has to do is not fold. It is programmed to call every hand it is favored to win to the end and the money deposits in it's account." How does that work exactly, because a hand that is "favored to win" at the start can become a dog as the hand progresses and a good player knows when to release that hand. Does the bot play to the end no matter what relying soley on very long term probablities and playing very selective starting hands, or does it make decisions based on what an opponents board looks like and how they bet/raise?
What I believe techno geek is try to illustrate with his statement:
"All it has to do is not fold. It is programmed to call every hand it is favored to win to the end and the money deposits in it's account."
The poker room software would deliver board cards that fit their bots hole cards. The bot is favoured to win; not because it plays better, nor because it plays better cards, but soley because their is an "unknown" co-operation between the house dealing software and the bot.
While feasible, I strongly doubt any of the major money Internet poker sites are doing this.
Hi, first off, a computer bot is usually defined as a computer program designed to behave in a manner similar to a human, respond to input and send output.
Computer bots are widely used in IRC chat, where they perform maintenance, protects a channel from users trying to take it over etc.
Wether a poker bot has ever been programmed or not is not the point, the discussion is about wether such bots are run at certain sites.
A bot such as you describe, illegally getting the best hand always, would be easy to make ( by the online gambling site), but if such a bot was made the site would quickly die from lack of users.
Get real - a bot that always go to the river and always beats you?!! - Even the loosest of fish would smell that rat.
The bots we are discussing are bots designed to start games, i.e. play when a table is short handed. For the sake of discussion we are further assuming that such a bot is not programmed to get the best cards, nor programmed to win/loose ( rake excluded).
For the record - I do not believe at this point that PP or Highlandsclub use bots.
By some players' accounts, this is exactly what happens: other players always stay to the river and always draw out. :)
<< Anyone that says these bots do not exist has never written a computer program. >>
On paradise poker at least, I say these bots do not exist...
Darren Software Architect
Hi Guys
Well let me start out by saying that bots do exist. I worked for an online site for 2 yrs as a prop. During such time I came in contact with a party selling or attempting to sell this program to the following sites. Any denial to the fact is complete bs. Deltapokerinn,Dragonpokerinn,Planetpoker and Highlands Poker were all approached about purchasing this product. Let me also say these bots as you call them were not intended or programmed to beat the players per say. They were set up to start games , get more games going and generate more rake from more hands being played. A bit of a clue that everyone seems to be missing comes directly from advertising at Doyle Brunson,s HIghlands Club. There add , for all the world to see in card player, had a little caption down at the bottom stating this...and we don,t use robots either. This ought to turn the lights on for some of you ignorants, but others are just as ignorant to think they are designed to clean you out. They are designed to play optimum poker period..and to get games going and keep them going. Paradise had the forsight to use these and become a multi billion dollar business. All of the rooms that I stated above opted not to purchase the software for bots on there sights, instead a couple used live players ( props) and 2 chose not to use either. Where as I agree Paradise has some strange things happen there..play good poker and quit being paranoid about bots, cause they exhist and they are not going to hurt you if you play good,
Better Lucky Then Goot
Where did you receive this information that Paradise has these bots in use?
The have expressly stated to me that they do not use bots. I know, they could easily be telling me a lie--how would I know?
But they have always taken the time and energy to fully explain any issues I have regarding their site. And I've had a ton of questions for them.
This is not to say that there aren't bots on Paradise, but I do not believe Paradise runs them.
Associated Press
IRS Conducts Most Extensive Raid Ever on Tax Evaders Tuesday, March 6, 2001
NEW YORK — Hundreds of Internal Revenue Service investigators have raided several suspected promoters of tax evasion schemes in what the agency calls its most extensive crackdown ever, The New York Times reported Tuesday.
The IRS, in pursuit of promoters who used foreign banks and trusts to help people hide their income, sent 300 of its 2,700 criminal tax investigators to make four arrests and conduct more than three dozen searches last week, the newspaper said.
"Last week's historic enforcement activities send an unmistakable signal about IRS commitment to pursue investigations of promoters and their clients who would try to move money offshore to evade taxes," IRS Commissioner Charles O. Rossotti told the Times.
The four arrested were affiliated with Anderson's Ark, a company that sells what the agency calls sham trusts for tax evaders. Two men were charged with tax evasion and money laundering; the others were charged as accessories.
Keith Anderson, the owner of Anderson's Ark, told the Times that he and those arrested during raids in Costa Rica and Washington state had done nothing wrong and would be vindicated if tried.
The IRS also raided the Institute of Global Property, an Internet company; author Jerome Schneider's California office; and the offices of Schneider's lawyer, Eric Witmeyer.
Schneider wrote and published "The Complete Guide to Offshore Money Havens" and "How to Own Your Own Private International Bank." Harland Braun, Schneider's lawyer, said his client had not violated any laws.
End of Story
This just illustrates the fact that Costa Rica is a shill for offshore banking and corporation operations. Their tax laws and corporate laws are constructed so that anyone can set up corporations there without the obligations and considerations that legitimate countries require. It is not a mere coincidence that these poker sites are all operating out of this third world country. It is a haven for money launderers, tax evaders and dishonest computer sites. Do not keep more money in any account established in Costa Rica than you can afford to lose in the wink of an eye. The IRS is proving that it won't tolerate these illegal corporations for long.
I believe PokerSpot and Paradise do. I don't think Planet Poker does. I believe they are out of Canada. Would someone please confirmed or correct my understanding?
I would thing that there is a huge temptation for people who win a significant amount of money at Paradise to divert their winnings to a foreign bank account to avoid detection by the IRS. I guess if you set up a private foreign bank that you could loan yourself money on some very favorable terms. This does seem like it would be blatant tax evasion, the kind you go to jail for.
Hi, the reason many online gambling sites set up in CR and countries like it is that they are allowed to. The US for instance has, currently, a ban on all internet gambling, so do most european countries.
Another thing is that countries like CR, Belize etc set up "no tax" zones for foreign businesses that do not cater to the CR/Belizean markets. ( you many have noticed that PP does not allow CR residents to gamble on their site )
Belize for instance allows you to run a business completely tax free as long as you do not sell anything to Belizeans.
It's not a "haven for ...dishonest computer sites", the laws in those countries are far more strict when it comes to punishment than the US.
Do you think PP employees would like to sit in a CR jail for 20 years for fraud? I don't think so, it's a very bad idea to get in trouble with the law in CR / Belize etc.
As to the IRS, that stand for Internal Revenue Service, AKA "The Taxman", they have no authority over gambling other than to tax US based gambling operations.
The story you quoted was related to the illegal avoidance of US taxes, and I guess the indictments would read something like "conspiracy to avoid legal taxes ( a.k.a. "Defraud the taxman")"
If an american citizen gambles outside the US and then brings the winnings home and declare the winnings as income that citizen should have no trouble with the IRS.
As to wether US citizens are allowed to gamble on the net at all is another discussion.
How much money do you have to bribe the official? Someone should ask Doyle how much he had to pay to bribe his contacts for his site.
Doyle's site is in Belize if memory serves. Besides, online gambling is perfectly legal there so there should be no need for bribes.
Yuo obviously have never done business in Latin AMerica. The licensing may be legal, but to acquire it takes a hefty ONGOING piece of the action.
Hi, I have long experience with latin america, sometimes a "gift" can speed things up, but as far as CR and Belize are concerned foreign business are not required to spend much in the way of "gifts" for the simple reason that foreign businesses bring employment and spend money in the community. The alcaldes usually get several family member son the employment list even without expressly requiering it.
My friend....there is no need for a bribe because egaming is not regulated in costa rica right now all you really need is a business permit like the one you need to open a bookstore in arizona that is you go and tell then you want to put it there and they ask you for 200 dollars and give you a paper
if you speak spanish i can give you the link to the FIRST law that they are creating on that , it is larger than the bible if you ask me, the price of the proposed license is going to be around (according to this law around 16000 dollars per year) while in antigua is 100.000 now don't think that brides don't exist there either , it is wilder if the "business= goverment " is smaller
if you have ever done business in latin america believe me that creating a law from scratch doesn't happen in one second, there is so much burocracy involved that in costa rica they didn't start to write one about it until 6 months ago
WHO cant beat online poker, so quit bitching about your tax problems.
I live in New Zealand and I Paradise poker in Costa Rica - wtf has your IRS got to do with that?
You are right Darren, we Americans are often geocentric.
However, I would have to guess it *might* affect you if the IRS was somehow able to keep US residents from using these poker sites, it sure would deplete the pool of internet players to the point where they may dry up due to inactivity.
Actually, as pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the IRS would worry only about the declaration of income. The "illegal gambling" issue would be taken up under a different law enforcement agency, probably under the "wire" laws.
Your 'geocentric' comment could not be attached to a more appropriate post.
Although a vast percentage of paradise's patronage(i wouldnt like to guess exactly)is American,i am almost certain it would survive without you Yanks!
There are many players from the southern hemisphere as well as plenty of European and U.K interests.
Since no one else answered Darren's question, I gave it a shot. I was trying to formulate an answer as to how the USA's Internal Revenue Service could affect him since neither he nor the poker site is in the US.
I made sure to use the words "guess", "*might*" and "may" in my response to reinforce that my answer was something that could possibly happen, not necessarily happen. I believe you did the same thing in your post.
I don't know what the "vast percentage" is, but just by scanning the tables, I would say a conservative figure would be half just for the sake of our discussion.
How many industries or individual companies do you know that would be unaffected by a sudden 50% decrease in the revenue stream? I agree with you that Paradise would probably survive, they seem to be the leader and it would be many of their competitors that would be lost. But the activity on the site would most certainly be negatively impacted, which is what Darren was asking.
I could have asked the same question Darren did, a few years back when I saw my stock portfolio tumble.... What does the Japanese economy have to do with the value of IBM?
Bob,i am not for one minute saying it would not affect their business,of course it would.But,not to the extent that it would go under and disappear forever.Certainly,without doubt,paradise would survive. Couple this with my belief that eventually it will not be illegal(if it is illegal now?)to play poker online in America,i am sure we will interacting in cyber poker for a long time to come.
P.S.I think the 'Economic Analogy',is another discussion completely and could not in any way be linked to the abolution of internet poker.
Don't worry Darren....your NewZealnd ass will be assimilated eventually like the rest of the world, then you will come to know the IRS.
BTW, despite what is said publically, our Naval ships still have nukes onboard. Nuclear Free Zone my ass. Have a nice day.
you bet they still have bombs everywhere, the idiotic yanks nuke their own soldiers and a new zelander
let alone to say they cant even drive a submarine
Hi
I was playing online stud the other day and found a difference, something I saw that I have seen online but is seen very rarely in lowlimit live play:
I had been playing for a few hours, it was late, I had given back some of my winnings of the previous week (after I had cashed in the week before), and I wasn't playing my best...too tired.
I had a 4flush and 4 str8, plus a middle pair showing, I was heads up against a super agressive guy who was catching and winning. On the river I drew a blank, I got real upset, he bet, I didn't think (maybe he is bluffing) and I folded. Really stupid. He then showed his Ace high, everyone could see it since it went into the online log, I was really embarrassed.
What did I do? Hehe. I left the game. I realized that my play was getting bad, weak and passive. I am going on holiday to Italy next week, so I cashed in too...about 50 big bets, down from about 100 before a very dry spell. I am sure that Mr. Smartass got super-hassled - he deserved it too - for letting old fishy me off the hook.
Mark
Hi, I realise I must apologize for not introducing myself to the board earlier.
I am an internet consultant from norway that likes to play poker. I'm still in the early fazes of studying and have lots to learn about my chosen games.
I play 7 stud online/real life and 5card draw real life.
I have started playing online to gain more experience, since I cannot play 7 stud here.
Like many others here I feel a little uncomfortable playing online, but I suspect that that discomfort will go away after I cash out for the first time :-)
I'm not playing using the nickname blue eyes, I feel I'm not good enough yet to diclose my nickname here while discussing cards ( like if I say for instance that I usually call the bring-in/raise with JJx on third but raise with KxK or better *example only, not real strategy* ) That would give away too much information to you other players ;-)
Anyway, I'm glad to have found this site, there is a wealth of information here and the replies from Malmuth, Doyle and all the others reallly help me in my game.
Thanks.
You have replied to a lot of the posts about "bots". It would be not stretch of the imagination to say that you are terified of them. I think you have the wrong idea. What books have you studied about poker? Do you think you can understand and apply the concepts in Leee Jones or Lou Kriegers books? Have you ever played some computer poker games? Have you tried "The World Series of Poker" of "Turbo Texas Holdem"? You should easily be able to destroy your computer opponets when you can play solid poker.
Hi, I'm not terrified of bots, I just think it's very unethical to have bots running that aren't identified. You also have to remember that bots are better at figuring the correct odds for a play, have unlimited bankrolls etc. Also to remember is the thin line between legitimate bots and bots that get better cards/know your hole cards.
As I said I'm a rookie, in time I may be able to beat bots hands down, I just think that's in the future.
As to the books, I've been reading 7stud For Advanced Players, Theory of Poker, some Mike Caro and one by Herbet Yardley.
I don't play hold'em, and poker computer programs are very bad ( at least the ones I've seen )
"poker computer programs are very bad ( at least the ones I've seen )"
Exactly. What do you think a bot is?
Now of course, ones that have inside info would be unbeatable. I do not believe any site would employ these programs.
HI, please read the post ( and your own ) before replying.
I was replying to your post on computer programs ( you recommended some )
I do know the difference between a program you install on your pc to play with and illegal bots at an online cardroom.
arrrghhh, you don't get it. The point is plain and simple:
Wilson has the best poker simulation software on the market, and by your own admission, the simulated players are not very good. (you may or may not have been referring to the wilson game specifically, but you get the point)
The bots everyone refers to are no more than simulated players, same as you would find in TTH or WSOP.
I would think, and hope you would too, that if there were bots at some poker sites, and they were remarkably better than the sims in TTH, then the creators of these bots are about to unleash some revoluotionary AI engine. It'll do for poker what Doom did for 3-D gaming.
Actually, there are some programs ***SIGNIFICANTLY*** better than Turbo Texas Holdem. They are not available commercially, but I know of one being developed at a university that can outplay a group of average players and the program is getting drastically better all the time.
That is not too hard to believe, what arre they ultimately planning to do with the program?
The program is being developed as a study of situations of imperfect information. When a good framework is in place to analyze and play poker, this framework can then be applied to other situations, such as political campaigning, economic forecasting and manipulation, and strategic warfare.
I do not believe mainstream sites such as Paradise, Planet, or Highlands would deploy bots. Obviously, there is nothing to prevent them from doing so other than their reputation, but I don't believe they would risk it.
As for other sites...???
Odds would be too high for me to risk it! I am a very trusting person, but the potential for cheating is just too high. You are giving your money to someone you don't know who could disappear without a trace.
Hi, I was wondering - am I doing myself a disservice by playing the every low limit games online?
I want to be good at 7 stud, have read Sklansky, Malmuth etc, but I need experience.
Shoudl I play higher limits - like 2/4 or 4/8 ?
I have the bankroll to support 2/4 comfortably. I'm a tight player at the low limit, which works fine against the fish but I'm not agressive enough yet to get the better players. I suspect this is because of the low limit/low folding cost.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks : )
The first line should read " .... playing the very low limit games"
Sorry.
I've only played a bit online, Paridise, and I play stud. If you read 2+2 and read this forum you can play $4-8 there, be forewarned there are some strong players around and you should give them some respect but there are also plenty of fish and you'll quickly figure out who is who, get some good experience, and the rake is better. And, for that matter, most of the same folks are playing $8-16 and $4-8.
Try playing the low limit stud hi/lo games. IMO they are easy to beat, and you can play a little more frequent starting cards, so you are not watching paint dry.
...the Omaha-8 at low limits, if you _are_ in to watching paint dry.
Find yourself a full table, and play super-tight. No one will even notice.
Hey blue eyes,
Here is some really really good advice (sorry I am not humble enough):
Play $1/2 during the week. Make a list of who is playing at 2/4 or 4/8 during those time periods and avoid those players when you play at those levels; play at those levels on Friday, starting midday EST and going til midday on Sunday EST. After sunday at about 3 or 4 pm est the games get tough again til friday....
I hope that made sense. My records are very good on Thursdays, excellent of Fridays, very excellent on Saturdays, good until later Sunday. I have gotten killed late on sundays, you cannot play the same on Sunday night that you do on sat night. And during the week is not easy, the regulars online are tough. The fish on fri/sat weekends are really really fishy.
Mark
Ok, ok. This topic has been rehashed time and again. And since I don't usually lurk over here on the IP forum, maybe this angle has already been covered. Please, point out any flaws that I have here.
En masse analysis of hands from PP or elsewhere may reveal "randomly" dealt cards, but only from the overall perspective. I believe it would be possible to have some hands dealt such that many very good hands are out there all at once, and to cover the tracks of this by having other hands dealt where there is a preponderance of bad hands. Now we all know poker is a money game, and when people get good hands, they bet more. It's the internet version of the Double Duke, with the added twist of someone getting bad hands just to make up for the suspicion of getting too many hands of a certain type.
Now as to the specifics of how this would be done, who knows. I certainly don't. But from a theoretical viewpoint, why not? Then there's the question of orchestration, is the internet cardroom doing this. All this is really for conspiracy theorists, but who says I'm not one myself!
Bill
You are correct in a way. In has been proven by many competent statitcians that the cards dealt by Paradise are random.
Actually, there is a small distinction. The only thing that stuying the 57 million flops proved is that the cards are "distributed" randomly. That means there is no bias in their frequency. All the card appearences (and subsequent possible hands put togehter) are equivalent to thier 3-D counterparts.
So, the cards are distributed randomly. This doesn't rule out the fact that Paradise could be intentionally manipulating the deck and frequencies of hands, manufacturing an enviornmentwhere we are not actully playing poker at all, but pushing buttons in a hand that finale had been predermined before we sat in the game, all in an elaborate attempt to milk the public for every possible cent they buy into the games with.
Or they could be dealing random cards, providing an enviornment where real players play agianst other real players in legitamite poker games and they collect thousands of dollars a day from the drop box.
You decide.
Just joking about the conspiracy theory bit. Actually, I do think PP is legit.
I thought of this method of card manipulation because one friend of mine was convinced the play money tables would deal better hands than usual to players to get them interested in playing for real money. Of course, there's a contradiction in that statement! Someone has to lose the hand, after all. Thanks for confirming that this "non-random random distribution" (whatever that means) is at least theoretically possible.
Bill
Listen pal. I'm 62 years old and I'll still take a shot at you. As far as you taking my money, let me know when your fifty cents online poker game affords you enough for a plane ticket into a REAL poker room. I'll post the results of heads up play, punk. Ready any time you are. Karl
You won't have enough money left for your viagra and rogaine after I get done with you bitch.
I cant believe I pay social f**king securtiy so Depends wearing fogies like yourself can sit around Jackies Plaza with a rack of $1 chips.
It amazes me that you can turn on a freakin computer, but you can't control your bladder.
I'll get my plane ticket, and you can hop on the bus from the nursing home and we can meet at the table anytime. Get your pacemaker checked out first though.
All your ACES are belong to us.
http://www.icantlose.com/allyourbase.swf
What the hell is this about? Pretty cool. You have no chance of survive, make your time.
Do you go to high school in California.
Why meet to play poker, when you can punch each others lights out??
you can have a fight and Two plus two can transmit it live right here!!!
that would be something
my money is on gator
I haven't been following all of these posts, but what is there purpose and what do they accomplish? Even if you two sat down for a couple of hours and played some heads-up poker it still wouldn't prove anything. Why don't all of you get out of the attack/counter attack mode and emphasize the more positive aspects of your poker knowledge.
Mason
I agree with Mason, for the rest of us its not that important whether or not gator can kick some old guys butt. But if you get it on please let me know :)
Only smart thing said in this thread. Seems like this forum is turning into a site for those who desire to criticize (no pun intended, desire). It's too bad. There's a lot of quality posts that get knocked off these pages quicker than necessary because of unnecessary space taken up by criticism. I'm right there with Mason.
Why don't you simply delete their posts like you do mine. You don't answer questions about your illegal involvement with Paradise Poker owners, nor your Chicago La Cosa Nostra ties. This Gator kid is a school shooting in progress. Of course, you just slap him on the wrist for threatening the life of other posters. When he goes nuts, I hope that you can sleep at night.
Maniac lookin to make you straight
Im curious can some 1 tell me where i can get 1 of these poker programs.
Texas Turbo Holdem is widely accepted as the best commercial progam.
Check out their webpage:
http://www.wilsonsw.com/
Firstly,i do play at Paradise and do not believe that they manipulate the games in any way.The 'do they don't they' bot debate is an interesting one however.I had not really thought about this concept at all,but for the last few weeks after reading the discusions and theories on this board.In which time i have noticed something that seems a little peculiar to me,however i am sure somebody could easliy explain it away.
I am under the impression that there is a minimum 'buy in' for each limit.I have however noticed over the past few weeks that on a few occasions(not every occasion)that when a table is short of players(having previously been 10 handed) a new player will sit down with under the minimum requirement.
For experimental purposes i have tried the exact same before sitting down only to be returned a message of 'Buy-In is less than the minimum','You requested $x in chips.But the minimum required is $x.
My question(obviously)is,how are some players able to sit down with less than the minimum buy-in?
Their whole bankroll is less than the required buyin. Under these circumstances you can sit at some tables (maybe only 50/1 tables, I'm not sure).
Chris
Once you have bought in at one table with the required amount, you may, in the same session, buy in again for half what is normally the required amount. I believe that your first buy-in in a session must be 10x the small blind, and your second may be 5x the small blind. I could be entirely wrong. You tell me.
I think that the microlimits are 5x bb.I have seen people sit down with $1 or $2 though in a $.50/$1 game,silly as it may sound!
Why not split this forum into two: one where the genuinly interested can compare and discuss Internet poker, and the other one where those who can't beat it can discuss bots/non random card distribution/etc?
I'm getting really fed up by all this bs and it stirs up really ugly discussions. I havent got a problem with those who don't believe in the integrity of Internet poker, but now I've read enough of it.
.
I assume that you are just joking with your suggestion, but you certainly do have a point. I wish I knew the answer.
95% or so of the complaints in the Internet Forum are the whinnins of marginal (stubborn or too lazy to improve their poker skills) players looking for somebody's shoulder to cry on, or some cheater caught in some scam at Paradise who uses this forum, deceitfully claiming innocence fabricating his story.
That's what the cheats always say.
This is about as absurd a post as I have ever read. Internet poker is an epic event in poker history, and a whole new frontier. My only concern, on this forum, is discussing its integrity. Everything else pales in importance. I want to hear if people suspect collusion. I want to hear if people don’t think a site is honest, and I want to hear about the things people can do with computers. But I can’t. Every time someone posts something addressing these problems, or potential problems, the gang of terrorists descend hurling insults with every sentence.
You couldn’t resist making sure you got your insults in. What were you trying to sound like? The voice of reason. You just took an unprovoked shot, nothing more. You said, “I'm getting really fed up by all this bs and it stirs up really ugly discussions”. Excuse me, for putting my face in front of your fists.
Tom D
I share your interest in this subject, Tom.
But I do think it's a reasonable, albeit strongly stated, post the PokerSthlm has made.
We really do have two separate catagories going here. Internet strategy and Internet "paranoia." (Which really is not paranoia, but reality...)
If anyone has any questions about what can happen to an internet site, just post them. The problem is when people post that the know that something is corrupt, or that they know that there are bots in use somewhere, or that they know the deals aren't random. When you think you know something that you don't, you end up looking like a fool, and sometimes you get called one.
- Andrew
Very good Andrew!
Your post says something I have not read in this forum but I always assumed people thought about.
It's quite natural to be suspicious about online poker rooms. I am somewhat suspicious, yet I tend to defend them (Paradise in particular) because I have had nothing but good experiences with them (besides losing streaks...hehe).
But there ARE issues that are valid worries. To some, this includes non-random shuffles, for example. Of course, this is a possiblity. There is no way to prove or disprove something like this. I just accept that MAYBE it is occuring...but 99% likely that this or something similar is not. If I had a distrust of methods used by Paradise, I would not play there.
This is a good forum to use to bring up POSSIBILITIES. Unless there is real proof to back claims up, it is nonsense to say "THIS HAPPENS WITHOUT A DOUBT...CONSPIRACY!" It is perfectly reasonable, though, to say that something MIGHT be happening.
A while back, David Skalansky made a very logical post (as usual). He asked what the PROBABILITY was that Paradise Poker was cheating (among other things). Some said 100%. Some said 0%. Most answers fell in between. But obviously, the ones who responded at the extremes of 0 and 100% were not thinking logically, because THEY HAD NO HARD EVIDENCE THAT ANY WRONGDOING WAS BEING COMMITED.
Many of the arguments about Paradise Poker's cheating revolve around players "watching other players draw out hand after hand." They then conclude that this many drawouts is impossible. Not only is it possible, but it is probable. When someone hits that "miracle card" that allows them to draw out on you, it's really only a 10-1 shot (or even much better...).
It's been said that players notice and remember bad beats that have happened to them much more and longer than ones they have put over on others. It's true, although I only have ***ONE*** bad beat story that has happened to me (pot-limit) and ***TWO*** that I have pulled on other players.
Anyway, this is not AT ALL a scientific method...Players will say, "I played 200 hands and there couldn't possibly be THAT many drawouts in 200 hands." Well, I would guess that 200 (or 1000 for that matter) hands of poker is NOT a statistically significant amount when it comes to poker. And you certainly CANNOT analyze 200 (or 1000) hands in your head with any meaningful conclusion.
But back to the original point, if posters would choose their words a little more carefully and not set in concrete what cannot be set in concrete, others would be more accepting of their ideas.
John,
I appreciate your and Andrew's level headedness. However, you are guilty of the same thing you are accusing others of. You said in your post referring to non-random shuffling: "I just accept that MAYBE it is occuring...but 99% likely that this or something similar is not". Where do you get the 99% figure? You can't know this.
I very much want internet poker to work. It has been, and should continue to be, a good thing for me. However, just because we have no hard scientific evidence that a site is corrupt doesn't mean we have to close our eyes and accept, no questions asked, that it isn't.
They say a good sailor can see the wind. Pug Pearson said that he didn't have to see cheating in a game, he could smell it. I think some very serious and experienced players have commented that they don't think everything is legit at Paradise. I consider their testimony to be on the level with expert witnesses in court. On this site, however, they're subjected to pedantic, condescending lectures about bad beats and the nature of probablility. Jeeze. Neither these guys, nor I, need to be told about bad beats. No experienced players are running around screaming the sky is falling because of a few bad beats. In poker, bad beats are ordinary. What these guys are saying is that they are seeing something extraordinary, something they have not seen in their years and years of playing poker.
It's common knowledge among trappers that it is harder to trap older animals. There's a reason that is so.
Tom D
Dear Tom,
You articulate as I only wish I could. It is insulting to be told time and time again that you're whining or a sore loser when you try and get some verification of authenticity from these sites. I have been approached by so many people that have the same suspicions that I do about some of these sites, and many of them are afraid to post their valid concerns because of the attacks by the rabid Paradise defenders, some of which I would not be surprised to be affiliated with them in some fashion. So I just wanted to say thank you for a very well thought out post that communicates very effectively what I and so many others are trying to express, however ineffective it may be.
Bravo. Nicely written by both of you.
My mistake...
I BELIEVE that it is 99% unlikely to be occuring (on Paradise).
ThanX for clearing me up! Won't happen again (til the next slip of a tongue).
Hard evidence indicates that they refuse to let you know who owns them I wouldn't buy a used car from someone that won't at least tell me their name.
but if there were a special forum for paranoid internet players it would be watched continuously, special reports made to all internet sites, and programs would be changed on the internet poker sites to ensure bad beats would increase for anyone posting on the Paranoid Internet Forum...
thought some of you might find this amusing. Last Chance took this guy for several hundred, but he lost this hand. check out the preflop raising war!sd:
Game #57729028 - $10/$20 Hold'em (1-on-1) - 2001/03/07-23:30:06 (CST) Table "Yasawa" (real money) -- Seat 7 is the button Seat 4: LastChance ($1,232 in chips) Seat 7: mrkitty ($1,848.50 in chips) mrkitty : Post Small Blind ($5) LastChance: Post Big Blind ($10) Dealing... mrkitty : Raise ($15) LastChance: Raise ($20) mrkitty : Raise ($20) LastChance: Raise ($20) mrkitty : Call ($10) *** FLOP *** : [ 3d 7c 3h ] LastChance: Bet ($10) mrkitty : Raise ($20) LastChance: Call ($10) *** TURN *** : [ 3d 7c 3h ] [ 4d ] LastChance: Check mrkitty : Bet ($20) LastChance: Call ($20) *** RIVER *** : [ 3d 7c 3h 4d ] [ Qh ] LastChance: Check mrkitty : Bet ($20) LastChance: Call ($20) *** SUMMARY *** Pot: $219 | Rake: $1 Board: [ 3d 7c 3h 4d Qh ] LastChance lost $110 [ Ad Kc ] (a pair of threes) mrkitty bet $110, collected $219, net +$109 (showed hand) [ Tc 3c ] (three of a kind, threes)
So when do we get the amazing part?
"So when do we get the amazing part?"
you dont. i said it was AMUSING, not amazing.
sheesh...
It doesn't take much to amuse some people.
Thats an every hand thing in PP
what's so amazing
For heads up, he simply beat your brains out in this hand. Nothing unusual at all.
Hi,
How do you get the hand history of the above hand when you are not playing? Please enlighten me. Thank you.
nt
If they sat down and played a single hand of poker, I would guess MrKitty would have thrown that hand away.
But there is so much psychology and meta-meta-strategy to playing a game heads up that trying to discern either one of their styles or sensibilities from that hand would be like reading half a sentence from a book and trying to figure out what the book is about.
While you might have some knowledge about heads up play, I doubt you have much experience.
mk's hand is easy to get away from if it misses, and if it hits, it is well disguised.
He may have been pushed off several hands in a row, or won several hands in a row and either one of those things could contribute to his re-raise pre-flop, which admitedly is not the soundest play. However one can really not judge the soundness of it out of context as its presented.
I just wanted someone to post something inteligible or enlightening about the hand. thank you for doing so. it only took like 7 posts of not-so-smart ass one liners to get there.
I watched these two play for awhile and while i get what youre saying i dont think there's any positive EV about capping it preflop with T3s heads up. yes it's disguised and yes he hit his hand, but what a waste of several BBs against a player who is so aggressive (and reraising back) that you just know he wont drop his hand if you miss or are dominated (which is MUCH more likely). (that Last Chance, who i only checked out cause i had recently read such rave reviews of his play here, went so far with his AK also surprised me a little).
yes i do play heads up (and more so shorthanded) and yes i do win (a little) at it. and yes im looking to improve and learn.
again, to clarify i did not say the hand was AMAZING> i just thought it was amusing. sorry to try to post about an actual online hand here, instead of the normal conspiracy BS.
So that's it....it's PSYCHOLOGY that would have me capping T3 suited heads up (or ever). This guy figures LastChance is a chump and he can beat him with anytwo.
How playing T3 for max agression can you EVER make a longterm profit? Sounds to me like it was MegaTilt and a desperate need to be parted from his money that is behind this strategy, not any great poker skillz.
Mr Kitty did have the button, which in heads-up is pretty valuable. Mr. Kitty is trying to put in the last raise and represent strength..so he can bet the flop if LC checks to him. His 10-3 was also sooted which adds some value to the hand. LC went so far with the AK because AK is such a big hand heads-up. Many many times in headsup play neither player even has a pair and AK will win a lot of pots. NUT NO PAIR BABY.. In heads-up play, pure positional agression like Mr. Kitty is using is one of the most important things. Either that or he was on tilt...like jim says :) Thats my analysis..FWIW.
Regards,
Joe
Waaaaay off topic...
This is buried in a thread further down this page, but if you haven't seen it yet, its unmissable...
The first bit of it (the graphics part) is from an old Sega video game that was translated from Japanese to English.
http://www.stileproject.com/base.html
Enjoy :D
Chris
When you hear some geeky person say "all your base are belong to us", you will understand why...The correct reply is "you have no chance to survive make your time"
http://www.icantlose.com/allyourbase.swf
You can download the old video game this is from here:
http://www.classicgaming.com/rotw/zerowing/
You can read an article from time magazine about it here:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,100525,00.html
Warning, if you watch it, you will go around with it running in your head all day long...at night when you sleep..etc.
All your ACE are belong to us.
Joe
Here is its history for the uninitiated.
For great justice
Where on the Web can I find more info about heads-up play?
I am a HORRIBLE, TERRIBLE heads-up player, but do well in full or near full games. I think that learning correct heads-up play would vastly improve my ring game though.
I seem to remember someone having an extensive page on heads-up strategy. I was thinking it was Abdul...but all I could find was a section on short-handed strategy. I am looking specifically for heads-up.
ThanX!
Do I have to declare my profits from Paradise Poker to the IRS? Advise please.
.
it is a huge amount I would not worry. The bank put's up a flag when 10,000 in put into an account and this could be a problem.
If you are making good money, might as well become a small business and declair it as gambling income, then you can declair a loss if you have on in the future.
I ran across several books by Sklansky on Ebay. They were listed pretty cheap! Check out 1415141850,,,, 1415162556,,,,,1415153499,,,,,1415157983
Could someone tell me why everyone is picking on Gator? I thought the purpose of this forum was to talk about online poker. Seems like this is turning into a big shouting match. I just think it's awful funny that when someone disagrees with someone else that they have to degrade them at the same time. People should be able to discuss matters in a civil manner....that's what this forum is all about, right???
jazzman
For everyone who thinks the games a rigged I thought this run over the last two days might be of interest (note i started with $100 in my account!) $1800 in cash outs plus I still have several hundred in my account... good luck! sean
2001/03/08 @ 10:58:14 CHECK ISSUED $500.00 80
2001/03/08 @ 10:21:26 CHECK ISSUED $566.25 79
2001/03/07 @ 13:39:57 C/C CASH OUT $100.00 5447...4301 1131705
2001/03/07 @ 13:39:56 C/C CASH OUT $100.00 5447...4301 1123336
2001/03/07 @ 13:39:50 C/C CASH OUT $100.00 5447...4301 1110823
2001/03/07 @ 13:39:49 C/C CASH OUT $100.00 5447...4301 1089657
2001/03/07 @ 13:39:48 C/C CASH OUT $100.00 5447...4301 1084097
2001/03/07 @ 13:39:47 C/C CASH OUT $100.00 5447...4301 1083410
2001/03/07 @ 13:39:46 C/C CASH OUT $100.00 5447...4301 1069589
2001/03/07 @ 13:39:45 C/C CASH OUT $68.25 5447...4301 1046190
2001/03/06 @ 07:34:41 C/C PURCHASE $100.00 5447...4301 1131705
Thank you for red flagging your tax return. We will be calling you in.
...did he ever _say_ he wasn't declaring the income?
I am not denying that a run like that can happen, I have experienced it.
However, something doesn't look right. The listing you provided looks like it came from Paradise Poker. You say you started with $100 in your account. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that you can only cash out to your credit card the amount that you originally purchased on that card.
Cash outs in excess of the credit card buy-in are paid by check. It appears that you received $868.25 in CC credits, much more than the $100 original buy-in that you mention.
Am I missing something? Are we in a bit of denial? I certainly hope it was not meant to deceive.
Still, a $1066 win is a nice run. What limits were you playing?
You're correct about PP cash-out policies. So either he's not being honest, or he previously lost money he didn't mention. But the way he listed his history suggests a bit of dishonesty.
lol, what are you guys on about?
Obviously he'd previously lost buyins from the same credit card. He didnt mention those losses because they weren't part of "the run".
Chris
Yes, mayby, but you can only cash out once per week. He shows dayly consecutive cash outs! Explain that.
On Paradise, when you make a single cash out, it details it back against all the buy-in transactions. That is what you are seeing in the post up to the point where he exceeds the original buy-ins and starts getting checks.
Actually, I like this method, it is a nice audit trail.
I am not looking at Sean's original post, but I seem to remember a buy-in that was not a round number. Could that have represented the last of his available credit?
sean a.k.a. NJFRED, Wolf, nothing but a fabricating liar(frustation has no discourse, bitterness is sweet as poison)
So you are up $266?
Pretty good but hardly the best run ever.... not even close I would imagine.
Thank you for confirming that it is rigged or more likely, there is a problem with the software. Streaks like that are the norm rather than the exception online. I had a day where I won $866 playing 3-6 OMaha Hi only. Then,other days, I can't hardly win a hand in 4-5 hours and lose a few hundred. Live games don't have swings like that. A solid player can't possibly win or lose that much on a regular basis. Overall, I'm up $500 and have played several hundred hours. Until the Casinos open up their systems to audit, I'll be wary about playing online in the future.
you have a 4-5 hour cold streak and you decide the game is rigged? You honestly believe a live 3-6 game won't allow for a $300 loss or an $800 win? I see it almost every time I sit down to play. I would say that if I'm at a table where someone isn't up 800 or down 300, it's unusual.
You're UP for christ's sake! You're a winner! What makes you think the site is rigged?
If you think a solid player can't lose $300 in a 5 hour 3-6 session then you have been extremely lucky during your poker career.
natedogg
Yeah, I've seen people loose close to 100 in one session at the 0.50/1 !! 7-stud tables.
Is it legal to play poker for real money online from my home in New Jersey ?
NO.
Is it legal to play poker anywhere but in casino. For most states and countries, the answer is no, specially if theres a rake. Well, i bet u can find more than 50% of holdem players in home games...
even if it isn't legal, there's no enforcement of it.
i believe it is, though. its just illegal for the online card room to be in the us.
Question for Rom M: I don't doubt your message, I believe you are right. But can you tell me what goverment agency can ratified this for me, because I must be absolutly sure that this is not an ellegal activity. You seem to know exactly what it is, so I am very encouraged by your post. I need to know that this is *not* taken as a victimless crime, similar to jaywalking, parking vialations, speeding, etc. You have been very kind. Have you heard that certain casinos in the US are trying to have online poker? Is this true? If it is, it will be great. Thank you. I am waiting for your response or anyone else that can add any information.
for anyone to have an online sportsbook or pokerroom that originates FROM U.S. Territories. I think www.wsex.com had their booking keeping Op for their Sportsbook stationed in the U.S. (anybody correct me if I'm wrong) and the operators are in jail.
Las Vegas is against any American online Operation and was the big money behind the now defunct Kyle bill that tried to outlaw gambling over the net. It failed because even if it became illegal there is noway to police it.
Now the fed are looking into way to stop net gambling by going another direction and involving the IRS (remember Al Capon?). However, this is still in the working stages and will be a while yet.
Another angle the U.S. is working on is cutting funds to countries that have offshores.
I have talked to a few off shore book people and they have said that no matter what the U.S. throws at them they are always 1 step ahead and it will be a cat and mouse game for eternity.
The whole problem the Fed has is that as long as the money is moving overseas there is nothing they can do. You are wiring your money into a bank off shore, they the money is being switched in and out but not in America!!! Thus, all you are doing is playing a game over international lines.
What IS illegal is bringing that money BACK to the U.S. and not paying tax's on it. So far no one has been arrested for that (as far as I know).
I THINK Western Union no longer lets you wire money off shore trying to curb gambling but more and more people now see that using the CC over the net is WAY safer then using it in a local restaurant, thus, that problem is no longer a problem.
Rod M is a bookie. I wouldn't trust anything he says.
lines and no money is actually passing hands. Your money is off shore and is not being transmitted.
There are no laws that can get you. I IS illegal to bring the money back to the US without paying tax's on it. But, unless you are bringing more then 10,000 back and putting it into a bank it's not a concern.
Hi, I tried to explain this in a post below. Americans in the US are NOT using international lines, you are all using aol/sprint/mci worldcom etc. lines.
You are not magically tranferring your signals from your computer to Costa Rica, you are connected to an American based ISP, using American copper/fiber cables ( also know as "wires" )
This means that you are placing bets over an interstate wire which is expressly forbidden by federal law.
When you first open an account at PP or similar you charge your American credit cards, which means money is transferred from your American bank account to a bank account in Costa Rica.
It does not matter if you bring the money back to the US, you have still made money which you are required to tell the IRS about. Even if you keep it in a PP account for years you still have to tell the taxman.
When you loose 1 dollar you have lost 1 dollar, when you make 1 dollar you have made 1 dollar. Your assets therefore have changed. Each win/loss means a transfer of funds, either to or from you account.
You are probebly thinking of the 1961 Interstate Wireline Act. The Wire Act makes it illegal for providers to offer or take bets from gamblers over phone lines or through other wired devices unless otherwise authorized by a particular state.
The Wire Act does not explicitly mention the Internet. It is also unclear how the law applies to satellite-based transmissions, which are not considered wired devices.
Gambling is also governed by state laws, making for more legal confusion over Internet regulation, as betting often crosses borders and jurisdictions.
The legality of Internet gambling gets even murkier when it involves Indian online services crossing state lines. Tribes contend that they are sovereign entities, thus generally independent of laws made by a particular state.
BTW - Did you know that when you go to an Indial Casino you are no longer in the United States?
is the bet being placed??? I live in Wisconsin. Am I placing the bet in Wisconsin? OR am I placing it off shore. Also, if they say I'm placing my bet in Wisc, well then I'm also placing it in Indiana if a phone lines entered that state. So, what law do I use.
Of course there is the wireless aspect also!
HOWEVER!!
Interstate transmission of bets or gambling information can qualify as legal only if both the state of origination and the state in which the bet is placed allow such wagering. Therefore, an Antigua company's taking of bets via telephone from a Massachusetts resident is a criminal act under ¤1084, despite the fact that it is legal to take bets in Antigua. Also, note that only the party "in the business of wagering or betting" (e.g. the virtual casino, not the user) can be convicted.
Internet gaming, like other activities on the Net, threatens to be ungovernable under current legal regimes and territorially-based jurisdictional rules.
Found some case testimony on the matter ;
"The Wire Act bars citizens from engaging ''[i]n the business of betting or wagering knowingly using a wire communication for the transmission of interstate or foreign commerce of bets or wagers or information assisting in the placing of bets or wagers.'' 18 U.S.C. 1084(a). A Wire Act violation occurs when a defendant is in the business of betting or wagering" (See U.S. v. Anderson, C.A. Wisconsin, 542 F2d 428 [7th Cir 1976]).
Hi, the Native American casinos are US territory according to current laws.
Native American reserations enjoy some degree of sovreignty, similar to a US state, but are still regulated by federal law, state laws do not apply. As a result the FBI, ATF and BIA et al handle crimes not covered by reservation law.
Some states have laws explicitly banning internet gambling.
The wire act dows not have to specify the internet, as the internet is still communication on those same wires, albeit in a different electronic fomr than voice ( analog ) or fax (digital ). The internet is not a totally separate network, it is thousands of small networks connected by wires and satelites.
As to satelites, if you have a satelite transmitter at your house you can probably assume that you are not covered by the wire act, but if you have a cable from your house to a nearby ISP that uses sattelites you are still communicating on US wires.
There is no ambiguity as to the wire act, any form of communication on wires, whether analog or digital is still communication.
When all is said and done I think it boils down to this ;
declare your winnings to the IRS but don't say you made them on the net.
Most law enforcement officers tend to turn a blind eye to this as it's not a high priority crime.
Heck - I see " law enforcement officers" with parlay cards in their hands and I regularly talk about pointspreads with police friends with PointWise in their hands! LOL
As you say - it all boils down to "do we go after child molesters and porn on the net of gambling?"
gambling is a WAY WAY back seat!
.
the two threads above here 4:59 & 5:03
But no one as big a corrupt crook as you!
Table "Bali" (real money) -- Seat 4 is the button Seat 4: legend42 ($219.50 in chips) Seat 7: JRA ACE ($370.50 in chips) legend42: Post Small Blind ($5) JRA ACE : Post Big Blind ($10) Dealing... Dealt to legend42 [ 8s ] Dealt to legend42 [ 6s ] Dealt to legend42 [ 6d ] Dealt to legend42 [ 5d ] legend42: Raise ($15) JRA ACE : Call ($10) *** FLOP *** : [ 6c 4h 3s ] JRA ACE : Check legend42: Bet ($10) JRA ACE : Call ($10) *** TURN *** : [ 6c 4h 3s ] [ 5c ] JRA ACE : Check legend42: Bet ($20) JRA ACE : Raise ($40) legend42: Call ($20) *** RIVER *** : [ 6c 4h 3s 5c ] [ 4c ] JRA ACE : Bet ($20) legend42: Raise ($40) JRA ACE : Raise ($40) legend42: Raise ($40) JRA ACE : Raise ($40) legend42: Call ($20) *** SUMMARY *** Pot: $339 | Rake: $1 Board: [ 6c 4h 3s 5c 4c ] legend42 lost $170 (showed hand) [ 8s 6s 6d 5d ] LO: 8,6,5,4,3 HI: a full house, sixes full of fours JRA ACE bet $170, collected $339, net +$169 (showed hand) [ 7c 2d 8c 4d ] LO: 6,5,4,3,2 HI: a straight flush, four to eight
actually id say that one is more amazing then amsuing, but i could be wrong. sorry you lost.
Got two heads-up-after-the-flop situations vs the same guy and won both quite unexpectedly...discover.
I raise in mid-position with 77, no limpers so far, I want heads-up. OP (opponent on both hands) cold call my raise. BB calls too. We take the flop three-way, not the best of situations with 77 but it beats four-way that's for sure.
Flop comes J-x-x (x' of course being lower than my pair). I bet out, OP calls, BB drops. Turn card is A (no flush possibilities). I bet in hope of getting him to fold a weak Jack or a higher pocket pair. He calls. Oops. River rags, I check, he checks. I show down my pair of sevens, and he mucks. He wasn't the poorest of players, so I put him up for KQ, which should've been laid down on the flop (I can play much else than sevens), but actually had odds to call all way. Surprised that he didn't even try to bluff me at the river, when I screamed 'No Ace!'.
A couple of hands later, same fella in BB. I raise with TT in button, no limpers (this was a tight $2-4 table!). He calls, flop is AGAIN J high to go with two low cards. Only this time two-suited. He bets out, I do the only right thing, and raise. He just calls. Ok, very possibly ahead still. Turn card is the third diamond and a queen. No good! He checks, I check. River card is the best card to defend a river call from me, another queen. Yes, he bets out...I make a crying call (he was honest the last time). This time he shows down AK! Got to feel a bit sorry for the man, first that misplayed first hand then getting this difficult spot with AK. I really liked his river bet, I thought it was good. It's an easy lay-down vs a raise, but could still be used as both a bluff AND a value bet (much like my turn bet on the first hand). I think Jim Brier would agree. :-)
Actually it's situations like these that gives me a kick when I play poker. Playing pocket aces are MUCH more straight-forward than playing 77 and to a slightly lesser extent, TT.
lars
I was dealing $15-30 holdem the other day and witnessed a magnificent bluff...
Folded around to one off the button who calls.
Big blind and the late position player see the flop.
Flop: 6-5-2 [rainbow] *** BB checks, Late Position bets, BB calls
Turn: (6-5-2)-6 *** BB checks, LP bets, BB calls
River: (6-5-2-6)-5 *** BB checks, LP bets, BB calls
LP says "I can't win!" and cocks his hand to throw into the muck. He did so twice and after a call to see his hand, he decided to show it. He turned up 8-4 suited, only a missed gut-shot draw. No chance of winning..."Two pair, 6s and 5s with an 8"
His opponent then showed 7-2...and wasn't even phased when I called "two pair 6s and 5s with a 7" and mucked his hand. I had to look the other way and almost busted out laughing.
How much did mr 7-2 lost in this game...
Just wonderin :o))
Here's the real deal on Paradise:
There are no bots! Instead, Paradise has imported 100 Guatemalans to work in their Costa Rican sweatshop. These Guatemalans sit at what are called 'calling stations' and play internet poker at least 20 hours a day!
Of course, each Guatemalan has a different Paradise client than you or I. If the Guatemalan is going to win the hand, he gets a 'CALL' button to press. If the Guatemalan is going to lose the hand, he gets a 'FOLD' button. The Guatemalan must successfully hit the correct button every time to earn his gruel for the day.
Where do you get this info from? Why would they do this and blow the nice income they get from the rake? If they rip every one off, they will have no one else to get the rakes from?
Mi iro esta sobre el, hablatista!
7stud against holdem.
what is the biggest winner if u know the games???
I am going to Costa Rica for a vacation. I woul like to stop at Paradise Poker and take a look around and see the set up. I'd like to hear sugestions from anyone on what to look for.
If they start saying..."Badges?! we dont need no stinking Badges"....RUN
Look for suitcases full of money!
"He,HE...i just programmed a way to crack off quad aces and a str8 flush in one hand"....gl
Sklansky and Malmuth in loud Hawaiian print shirts enjoying fruity drinks with umbrellas in them.
Jimmy Hoffa. I know they dun did him in too, the dirty rats
Look for a room filled with Guatemalans. Or a large, stinking vat of gruel.
ask about the current quality of the "coca leaves" in the back country, I'am still determing whether to invest in the market.
n/t
guys with lots of rake $
In reply to your real question ask the driver to take you to the mall san pedro , get to the office section and go to the 6th floor i think
now , i wouldn't think it is a good idea to knock on the door unless you want to see a security guard asking you what on earth you are doing there
to the other morons that know nothing about geography guatemala is like probably 500 miles from costa rica (north , that is up on the map for the ones that don't know that either lol) so don't expect to see any guatemalan there
what they probably have is a bunch of illegal yanks who go to work there ilegallity (Yes guys you sometimes do that to)
What are some of the other sites besides paradise? How do you guys rate the competitors? What differences have you noticed with the players, game selection, tech support, format, etc.? Also, are there any online poker rooms that have mac software, PP does not. Thanks for the info.
Here are some others:
Http://www.4knightspoker.com Http://www.pokerspot.com Http://www.ultimatebet.com Http://www.planetpoker.com Http://www.poker.com Http://www.paradisepoker.com Http://www.highlandsclub.com Http://www.deltapoker.com Http://www.casino.cherrycasino.com Http://www.truepoker.com Http://www.pokerlive.com Http://www.actionpoker.com
I've only played on Paradise and Planet, both of which are excellent, IMO. There might be a higher proportion of weak players on the other sites because they often start off on Paradise and bust out, figuring something must be wrong with the site.
I think they are starting to get things turned around there. Has anyone heard any news?
What makes you think that?
I get updates from them at least every other day from PokerSpot. If would like me to send copies to you and forward new updates please respond in this thread and I would be glad to. I have your email address.
I would like those copies, if it isn't too much trouble.
TT
yes please send them to me.
I get these as well but it seems to me like not much is happening. All the emails say the same thing. "we have contacted Netpro, threatened law suit, waiting to hear from them, etc, etc,"
Netpro will not be swayed by a threatened law suit by Pokerspot. If they truly have had their assets tied up by Barclay's then Netpro has much bigger troubles to worry about than a lawsuit from Pokerspot.
Mind you I received an email from Pokerspot last week saying they were going to credit back part of my credit card deposit. I haven't checked to see if it has happened yet. I will update you when I hear something.
Yes, I would be most interested in getting any e-mail information from Pokerspot. Apparently, I didn't make the cut? O r was it that I did make the cut?
money laundering is a way of life for the criminally challenged.
Is anyboby ever get money from poker.com ? last month I put $250, won $800 and when I asked about money they reset my account to zero. What the F. going on ?????
.
nt
never had anu problem with poker.com
when you cash out they naturally subtract your cashout from your account balance. Did they subtract more than your total balance??
Poker.com doesn't automatically reset a player's account to zero. I have communicated with this player as we have no one in our data base at this email address. Could it be he is blaming the wrong site??? I will let you know.
In attempting to contact this player, his email came back undeliverable as an invalid email address. To maintain the integrity of this site I think there should be a validation of email addresses before a posting is allowed.
GOOD comment-will "twoplustwo" do it???
Yes, I've played there a few times over the past few months and I have always received my winnings.
In fact, I like the full details they give when you cashout, so you know exactly where you are. Here's a copy of one of their e-mails.
Dear player: > >We have processed your $**** cashout request which will be forwarded to you >in a check from The Provident Bank of Belize. Please allow 10-25 business >days from the date accounting approves it for mailing.(Mondays and >Thursdays). > >Your cashout was requested on 03/06/2001 . Accounting will process your >next >cashout at any time after seven days from that date . > >Thank you for playing at Poker.com! > >Mauricio >Support >support@poker.com >www.poker.com >
They are slow to pay but I always got my money akaholdem
Same here, always got my money from Poker.Com 0 Have cashed out 4 or 5 times from there.. Just takes a VERY long time ....
Very Very wild Friday Night 1/2 game 62% Plyrs/Flop when I joined.
Mid Early position 3 from BB, I am dealt
Aª K¨
I raise and 9 players take a flop of
3ª 4§ Kª
I get a cute little comment from one of the other players that says "I'm callin that raise with my Big Blind"..(this game was full of razzing and joking by the players). Well now, this is just a beautiful flop top pair and backdoor flush draw. Now, how am I going to get these folks to fold. I have been studying the section on when the pot gets big in HPFAP. Sklansky and Malmuth give an example of a hand very similar to this one on page 170-171. It just so happened that I have been studying this particular section for the last couple nights.
Here's where the strange play comes into it. Someone bets out in front of me and there are two more callers before it gets to me... Most of you here I'm sure would raise. In most games that would surely be correct. S&M suggest that you might wait till the turn to raise in a very wild game like this with a big pot, because the raise on the flop will not get anyone to fold. Especially because I was in early position, I decided to try this play. I gritted my teeth and just called.
BB pipes up again and tells me "so be afraid..be very afraid". Well, against 9 folks, I am... Only one person of the 9 total folds and 8 of us take a turn card of:
9§
Great, now surely one of them has picked up a backdoor club draw, two pair, a set or who knows what?!?!..But, I remembered what S&M said, if they were going to call one bet on the flop, they probably would have called two anyways..I think this just totally applies to this game...sides, I am x-pir-a-mentin... Same person bets out in front, same two in front of me call and I raise to $4.00 (gritting my teeth even harder). As Emeril would say, sometimes you just have to "Kick it up a notch". Mass foldage behind me..woo hoo, woo hoo... BB pipes up again and says "I gotta Str8..another of the live ones pipes up and says "I folded my Str8"
3 of us take a river card of
10©
FINAL BOARD
3ª 4§ Kª 9§ 10©
I shudder and think of JQ and remember the BB's comments up till now about the supposed straight. It is checked to me and I pause and huddle for a moment and BB says "dammit...so many outs!". I love when they tell me their hand is no good. I decide to go ahead and bet for value. I know this is a questionable play but you should have seen the crap these people were playing. I get calls in all places..surely a scared two pair is out there...I turn over my AK and..drumroll please ITS GOOD!
BB actually called to show me his hand (how funny). This has got to be one of the loosest calls I have ever gotten in a game. It was 5ª2ª. From the hand histories. Button had A§10§ that backdoor Clubs I was worried about. (Shudder!) early bettor had 6ª4ª good grief.
Anyways, heck of a little pot. And heres the kicker, after the hand was over, one of the folks that folded behind me on the turn said, "Crud I had JQ, I would have made the straight". (This was the "I folded my Str8" guy.) Thanks for the nice pot S&M! Waiting until the turn to raise with this hand would have never crossed my mind until I read that section. It was probably the only way I would have won this pot. JQ fish just wasn't able to call two cold with his gutshot even though he should have. I think with the feel of the game, if I would have made the pot bigger with a raise on the flop, he may have called because in the fish's mind he had more money invested, the pot was larger, etc..etc. It still felt wrong when I waited to raise, but for this game, I believe it was the correct play. BB had one final comment.."If you would have hit your second pair, you would have been dead dead dead." Thanks for telling me that..LOL!
Comments on the play of this hand? The two odd plays I made were waiting until the turn to raise and betting for value on the river. Whatcha think? Am I nuts? Probably. No question I was extremely lucky to win this hand with top pair, top kicker against this large of a field...I love it when a plan comes together.
Best regards,
Joe.
PS, $130.00 win from this table tonight!
.
S/M's advice didn't help you at all in this situation. Players would call two bets with any hand they would call one with?
Well, I can't really see QJ cold-calling two bets on the flop with a 3-4-K board. Many of the other players, on the other hand, playing hopeless hands such as medium pocket pairs and weaker kings could easily cold-call two bets on the flop (yeah, it's strange, but they could), then call your ONE big bet on the turn (I assume it's check to you) even though they haven't improved because the pot will be much larger from the flop and they just need to pay one big bet on the turn.
What this gets you? You get out the long draws (the good draws will stay in no matter what), you get calls from the kinds of hands you want to be called by and charge a hand like that 25s (straight and runner-runner flush) to the max while their draw is not too strong (at the turn, 2s5s would cold call a cap).
lars
Lars, I would encourage you to look at the hand and think about it again. As I said in the post, It goes against my better judgement to play this way. In this instance, it seemed to work. I have no way of knowing if QJ would have called had I raised on the flop or not. The general psycology of many of these wild LL players is such that when they feel they have money 'invested' in the pot, they will continue. A raise on the flop probably would have slowed down the early position bettor (because he had crap) and would not have allowed me to make it $4.00 for JQ on the turn. JQ may have called $2.00 on the flop and $2.00 on the turn once he picked up his gutshot. When I first joined this game, this was the type of table with much wild calling and not much wild raising, It degraded into a real shoot out later on. It was also the type of table where the other players praise the suckout artists. I LOVE games like this. It was a great Friday night game.
This is what S&M say at the end of this section in HPFAP. "the most important aspect in these large pots is to play your hand in such a way that no one will draw out on you on the end. That one edge more than makes up for any missed bets. By sometimes playing in an unorthodox way you can get players out who would have beaten you on the river card because you have managed to cost them two double size bets on the next to last card. That is worth giving up a lot of other small profits."
I read the section several times because it just didn't make sense to me. If you have the best hand, you want to charge them the max right????
The reason that I posted the hand was because it so closely fit this 'strange' advice in HPFAP. The advice also worked fantastic on this hand assuming the player was not lying about having JQ. It is possible that JQ would have still folded on the flop in my example hand above and I would have collected additional bets. I do believe that waiting until the turn to bet gave me additional power to force him out though..even though it allowed him and one other player to pick up a draw. It was an intereresting hand and not played the way I normally would. Thats why I posted it for consideration. At first glance, it looks very screwy and bad..but if you think of how the action would of went if I had raised on the turn, it looks a little different...still screwy..but a little more reasonable.
If you will think about how many times a fishy player has called you with a three flush or three straight on board on the flop and won, you can see why I am trying to find ways to get them out. At LL, it really doesn't cost you too much to experiment and vary your play like this.
This was a tremedous table. I had players raising and re-raising me later in the game when I had the nuts twice on the river. The game just kept getting wilder and wilder and my cards were holding up. Fun stuff..felt kinda like sooty!
When you are running really bad
So that's what they mean when they say "My game is in the shitter!"
Nice job sooty..
nt
I play medium stakes normally and am one of the unfortunates to have a substantial amount frozen in the PokerSpot issue. The only consolation is that my investment was minimal. Won A couple hundred playing in the free tourneys and added a couple hundred, started playing low limit and ended up at 20-40. I am currently building a bankroll at Planet Poker from a small investment and decided to track my hourly rate. I have kept records for years but have not played low limit in years either. I have played less than 50 hours at the $2-4 limits and I am earning an hourly rate of just shy of $18. That's 4 1/2 BB! I believe the fact that there are more hands dealt per hour will contribute somewhat. I've only had 2 losing sessions. I realize the more hours I play the rate will drop but I can't see the swings to ever be that devastating as they can be at medium stakes. Heck, I know some budding pros that barely earn that at $10-20. To you successful players at the low limits what are your hourly rates and comments....Thanks :>)
don't you realize how lucky you were,you are due for a rude awakening, gl
No, hardor I assure you I am not lucky. I know my hourly rate will come down the more hours I play. My question was simple (I thought). I haven't played these limits in a while and just wondering what some of the winning low limit internet player's hourly rates are. If you are a winning low limit internet player I urge you to respond to the question only please.
I have played about 370 hours and am averaging about 1-2 BB per hour. Pretty bad swings possible. Dave
I was winning about 4 BB an hour at Planet and thought I was a fabulous player - well, better than most of the others anyway, which isn't the same thing ! However in the last two weeks I havn't had a hand hold up or a drawing hand hit and am probably down to less than 1BB. very frustrating. I suspect also that I got complacent and started playing looser thinking I could outplay people on the later streets.
Ace...How true. I catch myself doing the same thing. The one thing I try to remember is that in low and medium limits you normally have to show the best hand. I find it's vertually impossible to take somebody off a hand on internet games. I catch myself also loosening up when ahead or get a couple of good hands beat. I very rarely do that in live games. Thanks for your comments.
when the shit goes down, you better be ready- cypress hill. (dont over extend your bankroll)
41/2 big bets an hour is very lucky no matter how good you are or what limits you play. i repeat you were lucky. i hope you stay lucky for life.
I have been informed by Planet Poker that it is perfectly legal for US citizens to enroll and gamble in their Casino online with real money (american dollars). And that the only people who cannot are residents of Costa Rica. Any comments?
Can you post the email from Planet Poker?
"It is perfectly legal for US citizens to enroll with Planet Poker. The only people who cannot are residents of Costa Rica"
Planet Poker Support /Yvonne support@planetpoker.com
fd
"enroll in planet poker", as stated in the e mail, does not even begin to address wagering, etc.
It was my understanding, no proof, that a bunch of folks in CA. disputed their credit card charges claiming to not be aware of the legalities and got their money back.
You can only maybe get away with that once with a credit card company without hurting your credit rating. (You authorized payment, right?)
I would not want to dispute the charges as I value my good credit rating.
and the company gave her her money back. THAT, I think, is going to be a problem in the future
From: Planet Poker Support Any comments?
Hi, it's perfectly legal for them to _accept_ wagers from US citizens, if your state prohibits all forms of gambling you still have to adhere to your state's laws.
There are also federal laws that seem to prohibit internet gambling.
Why don't you yanks ask your local law enforcement agencies ? Call them up form a phonebooth if you want privacy and ask straight out.
There is really no clear answer to the legal question! It's against the law in some cities to spit on the sidewalk but the police never boter to arrest anybody.
You are right. I've sent an e-mail to the Gaming Comission of my state asking them about the legality of online gambling. They didn't answer me yet, probably because they don't work weekends. I am hopping to hear from them on Monday. As soon as I know anything I will let you and everyone else know their response. By the way, the states of Nevada and New Jersey have proposed legislation to legalize Internet gambling. Soon it will be legal in these two states. In the UK they just made it legal last week. They are realizing that too much tax moneis is been lost with all these off shore casinos.If right now, Internet poker is illegal, they are doing a lousy job trying to stop it. Last year 1.5 billion dollars were waged on the Internet, and it is predicted about 10.0 billions in 5 years (but don't quote my figures, I don't remember them exactly)
legalize it and find a way to tax it. I doubt if yur Gaming Comission will really know. I worked for a few years with our States Gaming Comission and trust me, you will get some desk jockeys interpetation of the rule and not a real idea.
Go to this site for a nice article
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/intgambling/overview.htm
and this is a rather intensive article (huge long)
http://www.ascusc.org/jcmc/vol2/issue2/janower.html#federal
You are right! From any gaming commission, police force, etc... you will get there interpretation of the law which undoubtably will suit their interests.
To my knowledge,it has NEVER been illegal to gamble on the internet in the UK.The only change made in last weeks budget was to drop tax on bets(bookies really,as most internet sites already have no tax betting)as of January 2002.I think you have been mislead Pizza man.
I always thought that was a real croak! Congrats!!
WHATS THE BEST PROGRAM FOR KEEPING RECORDS ??
I use Excel spreadsheets to keep track of my internet play. I list the amount of games I've been in, how many bring-ins I've lost, plays lost, plays won, errors made on winning hands ( ie - by not raising I cost myself a bet or two ), errors I've made on loosing hands ( ie loosing because I let draws stay in cheaply or loosing because my draw wasn't warranted by the pot odds ) and much more.
This can then be displayed in graphs.
I also keep track of opponents, like f.example "Player A is a very loose player" and "Player B is very tight and raises with trips or better".
I keep a record of my bankroll, how much did I start with, how much did I make or loose in a session, how much did bring-ins and mistakes cost me etc.
Blue eyes..Your record keeping seem extensive. I wish I could do all that and play at the same time. I too keep some simple mapping of players but I think what Fred meant though is basic record keeping, such as ongoing total of how he's doing, total plus/minus; hourly rate, etc.; not mapping plays and players. I use excel for such tracking but I know there is a program out there designed for just that. I'd like to get it also. You sound like a winning player. Would you mind commenting to my post on todays internet thread, please? Thanks :>)
Hi, thanks for the vote of confidence, I can't really say I'm winning or loosing yet tho - I haven't logged enough hours yet.
What I do for record keeping is keep a legal pad next to the mouse, where I've marked columns for |win|loss|bring in lost| |win errors| loss errors|
I then put down a | every time I win/loose etc and count them all at the end and enter those numbers into the spreadsheet. Keeping track of the hours played each sessions is also important, as it will show me if my hourly rate goes down the longer the session, do play errors increasy as the sessions grows longer etc.
As to beating the tables ;
at the low limit i play now (,50/1 no ante 7-stud) I find that by playing very tight I can make up to $20 pr hour. This depends on how disciplined I am, how loose the table is etc.
It also requires that I keep my cool and don't go on tilt. Starting requirements depends on the table ( loose/tight/someone who always goes to the river etc. ) But I usually keep to medium to high pairs, three flushes/straights etc.
I also find position to be important, some players I want on my left and some on the right. If I'm loosing to a player I usually try to move to a better spot or another table.
The fish at these tables draw to two flushes and will go to the river on almost any pair. So it's important to know each individual fish. Also I find that fancy plays never work, except for maximizing your take with pure nuts, since so many simply don't understand poker strategy. I can't begin to tell how many times people call my bets when I pair my door card on fourth. There are some players that seem to forget to take other peoples upcards into condiseration. I had one obvious straight calling all my bets on an even more obvious flush. They also don't seem to be aware of the check-raise. Many times I've used check-raise to get the max when I have the nuts and other players just keep on paying. Checking on fourth and then raising on 5th just keeps them thinking "you were weak before but now you have a pair" ;-)
There's also a lot of chasing going on, which can degrade your good pairs, since the chance of facing two pair is much higher.
I don't play two tables at once tho, like some people, it's just too difficult to focus on the cards and the players.
Anyways - I'm still very much a novice so I'm logging as many hours as I can to help me get experience.
I dont know about anyone else but I am having a real tough time keeping accurate records.I tried to keep track of what time and what limit I play in but at paradise the game changes so much.I am continually watching for better games and frequently jump from 10-20 holdem to 5-10 to even 3-6 and 2-4.It is just too hard to log a table when I only play for 10 mins and then find a better game-which I may change limits.I generally do not care what limit I play in but am more concerned with playing the softest game.Therefore I am having a real tough time just keeping records.The best I can do is just beginning balance and ending balance of the day.If I start on a bad losing streak it is sometimes very hard to tell which limit I am having trouble with.I would love some sort of program which could keep accurate records of different limits and different games (ie holdem ,omaha).If there is such a program please let me know.Does anyone else have this problem.Playing live is alot easier to keep track becuase it is alot harder to jump in from table to table.
I do not work or have any association with Two Plus Two. That siad, I just purchased their software StatKing which is very good. Calculates hourly rate, standard deviation, bankroll requirements and probabilities of your win rate given different factors by location, game, month, year, etcetera. Cost $30.
97hearts
97 hearts. thats what im looking for there is also another one in CARD PLAYER MAG.CALLED( cpa analyst )i was looking for info on best program .i had read a little on stat king but could not find it on CONJELCO web site .ijust want to keep track of games played tounys played .wins losses.time played . i do not want to keep player info. as i play a lot of local casionos and i remember people ive played with .even when i go to to las vegas and have not seen them for months .i wonder if they remember me i dought it . thanks for any info given FRED.
97 hearts. thats what im looking for there is also another one in CARD PLAYER MAG.CALLED( cpa analyst )i was looking for info on best program .i had read a little on stat king but could not find it on CONJELCO web site .ijust want to keep track of games played tounys played .wins losses.time played . i do not want to keep player info. as i play a lot of local casionos and i remember people ive played with .even when i go to to las vegas and have not seen them for months .i wonder if they remember me i dought it . thanks for any info given FRED..
I see that Cherry Poker has started to advertise at this site now, and thought that a slight warning might be appropriate.
I registered an account there recently, just to check the place out, and was amazed when the registration form was sent UNENCRYPTED (I have warnings for this turned on in my browser). This included, of course, nickname and PASSWORD. Not good, eh? How much security does this site have if they don't even use encryption in this kind of situation? It doesn't look too good to me. Not a place I would trust.
Just wanted to let everyone know and let you judge for yourself.
-JDS
This is not meant to be a bad beat story, more of a hand that I probably wont get in another 20 years. I just had to talk about it.
Playing 5/10 omaha(high) on paradise. I got dealt AdAcKdKc in the sb. There is one raise to me by a bit of maniac I reraise with one caller in between us. He capped it. Now I just have to hope not to see a flop like 789 etc.
The flop came out Ks10?6s I bet out knowing this guy will stick with me and also thinking it is okay to take this down with 2 possible big draws against me. Maniac raises caller calls. I reraise maniac caps caller folds.
Turn 9 offsuit a scary card but I would rather be the better and i do just that. He raises and I call thinking I might be beat.
River is the one of the best possible cards in the deck, a 10s. I bet He raises I reraise he caps I call. HE flipps over a 10,10 for Quads.
Well, I'm pretty sure I won't be seeing a lot more hands like that but at least I have a story to tell. Comments and ctiticism welcomed and appreciated.
Eric
what is the constant need to call players who play hyper aggresively maniacs? he beat you? shut the fuck up; be a man; and stop asking people for insignificant rationalizations, christ if your that insecure go get a self help book.
I don't know who pissed in your Wheaties, you ee cummings "wantabe". I was simply giving the best discription of my opponent that I knew how. I obviously don't have the vast knowledge of colorfull phrases in my arsenal that you have. My story by no way was meant as a bad luck story. I play this game because I enjoy it-not to drive myself crazy. This was simply one of the interesting hands that came along the way. So I guess the bottom line is: who cares what adjective I used to describe the man that beat me? Is it worth the aggrivation (on your part)? If so you will probably respond(taking the low road much like I have). If not, let's just move on. BTW--speaking of self help books might I recomend "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie.
Eric
Jackass,
I liked his story and I think maniac is the generally accepted term for 'hyper-agressive' players. If there is anyone who needs a self help book, it is you..perhaps one on being polite would be good.
Let me see if I get this straight - you mean it's good to play a pair of tens against an obvious better pair at a high cost ?
They have Quads on Paradise?
Maniac is a term that is commonly used as Im sure you must know. Vulgar, Innapropiate, Anger Disorder, Raving Friggin Lunatic, in need of of medication check, may be some ways to describe you.
b
The suckout pulled a badbeat on you " so whatskie" If your looking for a pat on the back and wet sloppy kiss you come to the wrong place pal and >BTW I eat my wheaties with milk not tears.
I once lost top set full against quads two days in a row. Back to back session. In Hold'em, not even Omaha.
You may be seeing a hand like that a LOT sooner than you think.
Hope you're on the good end!
natedogg
Been there, my buddy was playing 5-10(kill) holdem at Foxwoods, worked $100 up to $450 in about 3 hours, THEN....
He had KK in BB, ends up capped 3 way, flop K3A, capped, 2 handed turn, turn is an Ace, capped with the random OLDGUY, river ACE. bviously you know what happened. That's 40+40+80+80 on his flopped quad Kings down the drain, two hands later:
TT on button, raised, he 3 bets the OLDGUY, heads up Flop...TKT...needless to say with no cap now he goes back and forth witht he OLDGUY with Quad Tens till he's all in for $210, turn blank, river KING...you guessed it, Quad Kings.
He was quite pissed, I paid his entry fee to the nolimit that night, he won for a nice $1800 score, 1/2 mine, so _I_ have to thank the OLDGUY for getting my buddy so pissed off ;-)
Oops...that was a flop of KKA on first hand.
Omaha, the Nine card game. Internet poker, where everyone sees the flop and 60 of them an hour. If you don't see quads beat a set again next time you play, I'm gonna start thinking there is something fishy going on at Paradise.
Again I have to agree with Gator, you see many more games and many more people see the flops/river etc. You're bound to see more quads and bound to get beat by them occasionally.
I've had Aces rolled up in 7-stud, boated on 5th and the gotten beat by some maniac calling with a pair of treys on 3rd, raising with trips of 5th and quading on 6th.
These things happen because there are many poor players who don't realise their starter is a huge underdog and who'll draw 'till the river if they improve just a little.
What were his other two cards?
If they were QJ, AQs, AJs etc. etc. then you weren't even that much of a favourite! Or was it a complete one-outer?
Oh no!! Not again!
Are there any places to play real games without sending in money? i want to try internet poker out but can't stand playing against others who are playing with fake money and cap it with a A6o.
Your best bet is probbaly IRC poker. You'll have to download an IRC poker client and have IRC access but from what I've heard (I don't play it) people will often play pretty seriously (as opposed to play money web sites).
Try http://webusers.anet-stl.com/~gregr/ for information and a poker client program.
Good luck,
Paul Talbot
www.ultimatebet.com seems fairly good to me in this respect.
Or slowly create your own league of friends who feel the same and invite them to private games on www.realpoker.com.
you cna make a lineup VERY close to real online play.
...and the best part is, when you've played 500,000 TTH practice hands, you can flop second pair/good kicker and with a backdoor flush draw in early position in an online game, actually SAY, "You can check, or semi-bluff bet." and no one will hear you!
>>i want to try internet poker out but can't stand playing against others who...cap it with a A6o.<<
You think this doesn't happen in real games?
IRC is definately the way to go! The Greg's Poker client is the best I have seen - most of the players are pretty serious. They have regular games like Texas and Omaha, but they also have no-limit tournaments that can be a real blast! Plus, there are games that require a certain amount of money to buy in- so unless you've earned it, you can't even sit at some tables.
Good luck- see you at the tables.
Adam
Play on IRC and win enough bankroll to move up to the higher limit tables. Games are very fast and very fun. Don't worry, if you loose your initial 1000 at first the poker mafia will loan you more. The prestige that comes with having a large bankroll on IRC keeps people from playing too crazy. Email me at the above address if you need any help getting on there.
What is "IRC" ??? Is this some poker web site??
IRC, as noted on the other posts, is a great place to play.
I was impressed also by pokerpages.com's side games because each player only receives a limited amount of money each day. Once this money is used up, the player needs to wait until the following day to play. This forces players to play better if they'd like to play longer. They also have varying limits, up to 20-40 I think. the poor players don't last too long in that game.
I concur on IRC, only thing lately is that the pot limit game has died out after the bankroll reset. Mny of the very very best players no longer play there. For the 2 years prior I found it an extremely good game with some extremely good players playing pot limit. Now most have gone to paradise and planet and play real$....Im sure my instigation played no role in this.
I also concur that the Pokerpages side games, especially the 20-40 is very good, usually solid play and so I play it quite a bit around the wsop warmup activities.
Capping it with A6o is "real" game-did you ever play 3-6 in California?
I don't play that way (I try not to) but there are real money games that ARE that way!
IRC stands for Internet Relay chat. It is the LARGEST chat network on the Internet. An IRC server works like this. You log on and join a channel. When you type text into the channel, your text is rebroadcast/RELAYED to all of the other clients that are logged on to that server and channel. There are hundreds of IRC servers..anyone with a dedicated internet connection can set one up. Some of the servers are also networked together making several connection points all over the world for that particular chat network. For instance, DALnet is a grouping of many servers. There are always thousands of people logged on to IRC. Many people call it the 'SLUM of the Internet' because it is fairly anonymous and unregulated, lots of porn trading/software piracy/movie piracy goes on there. You can visit http://www.mirc.com to download a great chat client (the best) and find out more about it.
Basically what someone has done is write a server program that deals poker in the chat channels. Someone else has also written a client program to play poker with and make it less criptic..so you can point and click to play instead of typing the commands such as /RAISE and /FOLD. The server irc.poker.net is a dedicated poker chat server. See the messages above for a link to download this client program.
Hope this helps, as always you can e-mail me if you have questions
Best regards,
Joe
We know what flop lag is.
But now with online poker and the ability to play two tables at the same time, what should it be called when the flop on table A matches your cards on Table B?
Usually, this type of term is defined by industry leaders in publications. But something of this sort is not serious poker and beneath mention by the likes of S&M.
But for those of you with downtime between hands, even when playing two tables....Name that Phrase!
Is that Flop A = Flop B or Flop A matches your 2 downcards?
Flop on Table A matches Downcards on Table B.
Or vice versa.
Flop A = Flop B then they could be "I-Flops" (Identical flops).
How about a "Macfarlane".
... especially since that is not my name and the real Macfarlane doesn't even know what a "flop" is.
How 'bout a "Parallel Plop"?
Doesn't matter anyway. Been getting my ass kicked at two table play anyway so I am back to one. (Maybe my problem was reading 2+2 instead of reading the other players?)
.
I've been calling it "Crossover." "Double Crossover" is when the boards both match the opposite hands......
I hate Double Crossover!!!!!!
General protection flop..oh wait I said no text..why are you clicking on this anyway?
FlopSkew
BWF=bizarro world flop
Flip-Flop
Well, I've been refining and refining my online strategy and I believe I've come close to an unbeatable one.
In the past month I'm up about $500 playing 3-6. I play ultra tight. I play so tight it's amazing that anyone will ever call a raise.
I used to make a raise with 87s and the like every tenth time I got one. However, I've lowered this to every 20th time or so. And ONLY when I'm at a table that actually seems to play off my tightness somewhat. However, that is rare. But if you feel it's necessary to vary your play at a table that seems to take notice, do it ONCE. You don't need to show a sub-par hand more than once in order to get people to give you action.
Do not defend your blinds. This adds to your variance and will kill you if you go cold. If you have a good hand in the blinds, call a raise but play very tight up front after the flop. If you flop middle pair or top pair with a deuce kicker, be ready to fold if someone bets and there is a call. You can call against ONE bettor if you will be heads up on the turn, but otherwise, dump it.
Tight tight tight. I cannot emphasize this enough. For those of you struggling to win at online poker, you must tighten up considerably. Even if you feel you are playing tight, you are probably not tight enough.
Now, I am almost definitely missing out on profitable opportunities by playing so tight, but I have eliminated one of the biggest problems with online poker. My deviation has diminished considerably. In the past month, my biggest downswing has been $125 at 3-6. My biggest upswing was somewhere around $200.
The month before when I was playing 5-10, I had an $1800 losing streak, but I wasn't playing super-tight. I was raising from the blinds with JJ and the like. Plays with a winning edge but with a high variance.
Lowering your variance is the key to survival unless you have a huge bankroll. The style of play I use is for people who want to win without enduring a $1500 down swing in 3-6. That can still happen but not as likely.
If the variance is no problem for you, then you should ignore my advice.
But the point is, absolute tight-ass rock play will not be punished when you're playing online. You can fold 40 hands in a row (which will be typical if you play right) and people will STILL call your raises and chase you down.
The other key is to be tiltless. You absolutely CANNOT let the bad beats get to you. If you do, you will suffer big time, especially because you are normally playing so tight. If you burn off 10 or 15 big bets because you go on tilt, it will take a while for you to make it up once you go back to your super-tight play.
DO NOT GO ON TILT. EVER. Do not raise with QTs UTG after you get your set of kings cracked. Fold. Just like you always would.
Play super-tight, don't defend your blinds with non-premium hands, and never ever deviate from your super-tight play by even slightly going on tilt.
It is not the best strategy for live ring game play, but it works marvelously for online play. If you have the patience and discipline.
natedogg
>>In the past month I'm up about $500 playing 3-6. I play ultra tight. I play so tight it's amazing that anyone will ever call a raise.
Just curious, how many total hours did you play last month to win $500. Thanks.
-james
I don't know for sure. It's probably between 30 and 50 hours.
natedogg
if you play that tight, it seems that it would be worthwhile playing 2 games simultaneously...any thots nd...great post again, as usual...gl...How can you play, study work at ,,actually agonize at big bet poker and then gear down for low limit internet poker, the fact you can do this makes you a very dangerous long term opponent..gl..jmho...
Then what's the point? If your not tracking it then your probably playing more than 50 hours and not noticing. As much as you post on here, I'd be surprised if you only played 50 hours in a whole month. That would be like what? 12 to 13 hours a week. But let's just say you keep it to 50 hours for $500. The math is easy: $10 an hour. You can make that at McDonalds and get benefits to boot. Not to mention all those free hamburgers.
Yeah, but McDonalds is hard on my stomach!
And I doubt I have the capacity to memorize the color-coded cash register.
natedogg
Natedog,
I appreciate your willingness to share your winning strategy with the 2+2 readers.
One thing I do like to see is the hourly win rate in a month rather than how much you win total in a month. Please start tracking how many hours you've played, and then come back in a month to let us know how you've done playing the ultra tight strategy.
Thanks.
-james
I'll do that and post the results for you in a few weeks.
natedogg
12 V man,
Whether or not you can work at McD's for $10 an hour is not the point here.
For natedogg, it's trying to beat the game with a limited BR.
However .... free burgers eh? Hmmmm
But working at mcdonald's requires going to mcdonald's and while your working there you can't do other things. playing online can be done at home, for whatever hours you choose, and you can listen to the radio, browse twoplustwo in another window, etc. while you play.
You can't work at McDonalds in your pajama's You can't read two plus two while you work at McDonalds. Do you realize what the man is saying...you can make $10.00 an hour playing a GAME?!?!?!?! sitting at home in your sweat pants....these are truly unique times that we are living in.
Not to mention those really cool fashionable polyester uniforms you get to wear at McD's.
So... how tight is tight?
Unbelievably tight. So tight it will make your eyes water, your nose bleed and your head pound.
Here's some examples of my play:
Do not cold-call a preflop raiser with AQ UNLESS you know for sure he's a loose raising fool. Then you should three bet him. If you don't know the player, fold.
DO NOT call two bets cold on the button with AJs.
If you miss the flop with AK, give up immediately to any bettor. DO NOT make plays with AK if you miss. Ever.
Do not even limp with a hand like KJo or QTo unless you are AT LEAST in the last three positions and there's no more than one limper. Even then I usually dump QT and QJ.
Fold AJ and AQ and KQ up front without a second thought. Any two big suited cards will simply not do either. Throw away KJs, KTs, ATs, QJs and the like when you are in early position.
DO NOT EVER make a wild raise with hands like T9s against a limper. It's okay if you open-raise about 5% of the time with these hands but simply do not go for it if anyone has come in already.
Do not raise from the blinds without KK or AA. If the pot is shorthanded, you can add QQ and SOMETIMES JJ if it's REALLY shorthanded. NEVER raise with AK in the blinds. Never ever.
Also, remove all "odds" plays from your arsenal. Do NOT raise to "build a pot" with hands like JTs, 88, and the like. Limp if you can, but throw them away if you are in early position. You CAN raise for the free card on the button sometimes but you need to be selective.
Be tight on the river too. If someone is betting into you on the river after you've shown strength during the hand, your top pair is no good. Fold for even one bet.
Put another way, you should play so tight that if you played against yourself in a live game, it would make you laugh. You'd take all the guy's money because he's so tight and predictable you just can't believe it.
You should pretty much only ever show down sets, big pairs, AK and sometimes AQ or AJ or big suited cards if you are in late position. You can afford to wait for these hands and you should.
natedogg
if you use this strategy at any limits you will be a winner in the long run. gl to all.
"Be tight on the river too. If someone is betting into you on the river after you've shown strength during the hand, your top pair is no good. Fold for even one bet. "
Be carefull here. You're trying to reduce variance not increase it.
I hate to say you're not being tight enough, but QTo is a pretty lousy hand. I wouldn't even call with it on the button, but certainly playing it "in the last three positions" seems like a bad idea. I'd play it for a partial bet out of the small blind, a free play in the big blind, and would try to steal the blinds with it if they really weren't defending and I was first in on the cutoff or button. That's it.
In general i'd agree that tightness is definitely the order of the day when it comes to beating online holdem. But i think you're taking it a little too extreme.
For example, "Fold AJ and AQ and KQ up front without a second thought" simply isn't profitable.
AQ particularly is only outmatched by 2.5% of hands. (AA KK QQ and AK) Given that there are 9 players left, you're folding down a hand that will be at least equal favourite in the pot almost 80% of the time.
KQ and AJ are a little more marginal each being out matched by 4.5% and 5% of hands respectively. In the same way though you get to outmatch hands like KJ and AT that will routinely be played behind you.
I'll limp/raise both KQ and AJ utg every time along with 88 amd 99. If i feel that limping these hands isn't profitable or my table, then it's time to find a better table.
I think you're pretty much on the ball regarding calling raises though. No legitimate raising hands are beaten by AQ, it should hit the muck almost every time.
One other point that i disagree with is your play of KJ and occasionally QJ and QT behind one limper on the button. Either toss them away as you could very easily be outmatched by the utg player or make a small raise which will give you a very good chance or taking down the pot the 7 in 10 times that he doesn't make a pair.
All in all though, i prefer to stick to the loose 2/4 tables where small pairs and big suited connectors are the tickets to big pots and postion is of less importance.
Best of Luck
Mike
Playing ultra tight is your strategy?In 3-6 hi lo omaha other than the blinds would there ever be a time to call 9876.(it might of been 10987)Is there a diff -im no expert but I dont think there is. Game #58758520 is an example of playing ultra tight.Natedogg is the button.It made you money on the hand or did it really at the end of the day.I am an extremely novice player and follow pros like you trying to watch and learn from you but when I hear you say NEVER go on tilt to win in the long run I am wondering if I should re read a few omaha books or something to see if I missed anything.I am not trying to be insulting but is that hand a playable hand?
Omaha is not my game. I sometimes play it to get a better feel for it. I am talking about playing 3-6 and 5-10 hold'em.
I don't know if you should fold 6789 on the button after several limpers or not. I'm learning how to play omaha. But I find that the Omaha tables are softer and you can limp in late position for liberally. I'm no expert.
The funny thing is, I was going to post this hand! I thought it was pretty funny cause I actually won the low half with an 87 low! I got to check it down on the turn and river. That's got to be a first. I figure winning the low with an 87 in online Omaha is like winning a 6 way capped pot in hold'em with your deuces holding up! lol
natedogg
I've been playing a lot of O/8 and I saw you there the other day. Got spanked at another table but came back to lose only 60 across 2 tables.
The 6789 hand should be mucked. As soon as you see any three of those cards, start hitting the fold button. Even in the BB you wouldn't lose much( if anything) by folding.
I'm still learning the game as well.
nate, this is an absolutely unplayable hand. With it, you are looking to either make a terrible low and lose, make the low end of a straight and lose, or make the high end of a straight and at best split the pot (since having the high end of the straight with these cards requires a low to be out). Preflop you should only be playing hands that have the potential to make the nuts in one or both directions.
I think Ray Zee specifically mentione 6789 in his book. Muck city. I assume in Omaha high it is playable. T987 is superior to 9876 because of the increased (slight) chance of scooping, but it is still not recommended.
"Do not defend your blinds. This adds to your variance and will kill you if you go cold. If you have a good hand in the blinds, call a raise but play very tight up front after the flop. If you flop middle pair or top pair with a deuce kicker, be ready to fold if someone bets and there is a call. You can call against ONE bettor if you will be heads up on the turn, but otherwise, dump it."
My guess is that an observant player can make at least $10 an hour in Paradise $5-10 just by sitting to the right of anyone that follows this advice.
Of course, there's almost no danger of this ever happening since there are almost no observant players on PP.
That's the only reason why this strategy works, the unique environment that is only present online.
Obviously, when I find myself at a table with a player or two who start to play off my tightness, I adjust for those players only, if we're heads up. Everyone else is oblivious. And I don't vary my play unless I'm heads up with a player who seems to be adjusting to me.
There's another reason why I don't even care if the good players are at the table and can spot what I'm doing. It's because I'm only coming in with premium hands. Even if they KNOW I have those hands, I still have them. I have the best hand.
And if a player knows what I'm doing, then they know they have to pay two bets to come into the pot with a likely inferior hand ALONG WITH ALL THE FISH and not only make the best hand but push me off the pot first.
It just doesn't matter if one or two players figure it out because ironically, the fish give me protection from the good players. A good player who sees me raising two limpers knows EXACTLY what I have. KK, AA, QQ, AKs or maybe AQo if I'm feeling frisky. They can cold-call the raise if they like but why? The fish are in there already and they've got a dominated hand no matter what way they look at it. The fish are going to pay me off, if the good player wants to pay me off, fine, he can pay me off too.
I'm not going to be in if I don't make a hand. If I make a hand, it's the best hand. I'm folding AK if I miss no matter who is in the pot with me. A good player might think to himself: I'll call this natedogg character with any two cards and bluff the pot if it comes babies. But he's not doing anything different than the fish. I will fold my AK if I miss. Period. But I come in so rarely that he's got to be worried I have an overpair. If I'm raising, I'd say AK is only a 50/50 shot against the chances I"ll have TT, JJ, QQ, KK, or AA. If he wants to take the chance of calling $6, and raising me to $6 on the flop only to run into KK, go right ahead.
Thank you fish. You literally make it so I don't even need to worry about what the good players are doing.
natedogg
When you raise with AK and miss the flop you are going to check, but when you have an overpair you will bet.
Your reason for believing that this is a profitable strategy is that if I call you with any two cards you will more often than not have a pair TT-AA.
Let's look at a counter strategy to your play. 16 times you will have AK and 30 times you will have a pair when you raise in early position. I will reraise you with any 2 cards to get heads up. Presumably utilising your safety first strategy you will always check-fold when an overcard flops to your pair or when you miss with AK. You wouldn't want to be known as a calling station:)
In the above encounter of 46 hands we both invest 138 SBs: my return is is 168 bets, yours is 177 bets. We have shared the blinds between us. If we combine your never defend the blind strategy with a transparent raising/post flop strategy, this game adds up to -ev.
My final comment, if I employed the above strategy against you, how long would it be until you started check-raising me with AK even though you missed the flop?
I think you're assuming a couple things which I never said.
I didn't say this strategy was rigid. If a player starts 3betting to isolate me (which is highly unlikely anyway, most flops will still be 4 handed with 3 bets), I will of course adjust to that player. In answer to your question, he'll be able to get away with it maybe twice before I start playing him tricky aggressive style.
In addition, for this play to work the isolation has to work AND I have to miss with AK. The odds are just not there for this person unless the table is tight enough to let him isolate me, which is rare. And as I said, in that case I bust out the tricky aggressive play for this guy, and look for a new table!
Also, if he is in a position to steel my blinds, he will rarely be able to do so without a field of limpers behind him. In that case, his raise is almost irrelevant. I'll call if I think my hand is worth 6:1 and I'll fold if not. Period. If we're heads up a lot, then my play will adjust.
The implicit caveat to anything I say is that you MUST adjust your game when necessary. What I'm describing is a general guideline for successful play online at 3-6 and 5-10 limits.
natedogg
Nate, get Ray Zee's book available on this site. It is the BEST for Omaha 8 play. If you like to play tight and win, you will find more opportunity to do this in Omaha 8 on PP than in holdem. Being the tighest player before and after the flop will almost always get you the money. There are MANY more fish in that game. Read Ray's advice about playing in 'ZOO' games especially close.
Wow! That is tight. It sounds like you've played far more hours online than I have so I am sure you have evidence to back your strategy.
However, you are giving up some serious EV. I think you know that, too. Are you afraid of your shadow? What is it that is causing you to deviate from what I assume is your typical live play? This advice could only be good for someone who is under bankrolled.
Then again, I haven't been playing online for that long so maybe I don't understand.
When there are 6 people seeing the flop and all hanging on at the end, SOMEBODY is going to have a nut flush, Full boat or str8.
2 pair will not win most of the time and trips is needed as the lowest hand to go for. Sure, you will not win hands you COULD win, but you will also not get sucked into losing a lot with AAKK.
Yes, I agree that this strategy is not too bad for those kinds of games. Yet, I would argue that there are additional hands that are +EV that could be played in these games but would add variance.
However, I believe natedogg was talking about the 3/6 Paradise Hold 'em game. My experience with 3/6 online is that between 24% and 35% of players take the flop. Not 60%. Given this, do you still stand by your statement?
By the way, if 6 people are taking the flop in this game, then I must be playing at the wrong time. :-)
I have played $4 with 50% pre-flop and I even played $1 with 24% pre flop.
If he is talking 25-35% pre flop I think his strategy is way wrong in that case.
In that type of game you will not have the guys that play ANYTHING - at least you won't have 4 guys at a table playing EVERYTHING! LOL
At 3/6 you still see some amazing suckouts. Twice last night, my high pairs lost to 7,2 s00ted. And we were heads up on the flop. In one case, after three betting me on the flop he backdoored a flush. LOL. I love these games!!!!!
.
He already answered your question. He is trying to play profitably while reducing VARIECE wiht this strategy. As it is varience online is 2-4 TIMES higher than a live game do to:
more hands per hour, high traffic and lack of tells in person, and ability to play 2 tables, and above all the higher looseness of the avg opponent.
True. But is it because he is under bankrolled at that limit for online play? If so, maybe he should move down and play more optimally (that is, for EV). To each his own. It's not my place to to say what's correct for someone else. Interesting discussion though.
Great post! I'm dealing with the online tilt factor at low limits. Please check out my post last week titled "hourly rates" and comment if you would.
I have not kept perfect track of my hourly rate or the number of hours for that matter.
But I have a general idea.
I make approximately 1BB - 1.5BB per hour, and I play approximately 40 hours a month. I've played for three months. During that time, I've constantly refined my strategy and every time I tighten up more, the variance goes down and the steady climb continues.
However, I suspect you are not adequately bankrolled for 20-40. It sounds like you're playing with under 2k in your bankroll.
2k is not a big enough bankroll for 5-10. It's marginally adequate for 3-6 (mine is 1300).
In your post you state that you don't believe the swings can be very extreme. Nothing could be further from the truth. My style is NOT designed to maximize all possible profit, but rather it is designed to survive with a meager bankroll (anything under 500 BB) in a game where the swings can be astronomical.
When I was playing 5-10 ( and playing looser ) I went up 2k and down 1800 in about 10 days. And no, I was not playing reckless.
natedogg
natedogg
Just wanted to get your attention..please read my reply just above.
I absolutely agree with you that you should never ever go on tilt online; it kills you.
I played for about 300-400 hours online now and make 2-3 BB an hour. ATM i'm a bit in a down swing; pocket A's, K's etc dont hold up, straights get beaten by flushes and i had even a full house aces lost to quads. But hey..if i look back i think i played all the hands correctly, and i know these opponents will pay me off later (after the full house hand i stopped immediately however, as i felt i was a bit tilting).
But anyway, i dont agree with your ultra tight play. I agree that you should play (very, not ultra) tight preflop, but i think most important is to play tight postflop. There comes the real profit. In my winning period, i had quite a few session where i won 150 dollar (at 2/4) but now when i'm running this bad i'm still only losing about 50- 75 max. I think this is because i can release hands like KK when an ace hits in a multiway pot etc. I dont chase with overcards etc and muck second pair alot.
I want to add another point you didnt mention in your post. You almost never defend you blinds, but what about blind stealing? In my experience blind stealing is quite profitable, since most people defend their blinds poorly, and often release on the turn when bet.
Wow, I really think you hit on something here. I do indeed play super-tight post flop. I think it's the right play.
I still believe that you should play ridiculously tight in early position preflop, because getting raised when you hold a trap hand can turn out to be costly. Just avoid these situations entirely and muck KTs out of position.
However, you are right that the real losing play is in not playing tight post flop. Part of the reason why my wins have remained steady is that I just never make plays on the flop when I miss. I DON'T raise with KK if an A comes. I DON'T raise with middle pair or with a draw.
I am going to start playing with your advice in mind and see how it works. I will loosen up preflop in the right spots and see how that helps. But again, I still believe playing ULTRA-tight when up front is the way to go.
See my followup regarding blinds.
thanks for the comments
natedogg
"I still believe that you should play ridiculously tight in early position preflop, because getting raised when you hold a trap hand can turn out to be costly. Just avoid these situations entirely and muck KTs out of position."
That's just good poker. Ususally the only hands I play upfront are the best 6-8 hands. Pretty damn tight. But I tend to use my position a bit more liberally if it's been folded to me in late position.
One thing you are not considering is the cost of the blinds. With $1 and $3 blinds, it costs you $4 per round. With 8-9 people at a full table, that's $0.44 to $0.5 per hand whether you play it or not.
Consider the extremes:
1. No blinds - if their were no blinds what hands would you play? You could afford to wait around for AA and maybe KK. You might play QQ and JJ just for fun.
2.Draconian blinds - if the blinds were large in relation to the bet size, then you would have to play many more hands to be profitable.
Playing too tight costs you money just like playing too loose does (although not as much).
For every set of circumstances (Bet structure, type of players at your table, etc) there is an optimal strategy.
The # of hours you played is insufficient to draw any conclusions about your true win rate.
Playing overly tight will make you lose $ at a slow rate. It is just impossible to see it in the short run.
I don't defend the blinds very often. I feel that position is such a crucial part of this game that I don't even want to see a flop when I have a trap hand out of position.
I don't advocate following this advice blindly. If one particular player is raising too much or targeting your blinds and you will see the flop short-handed, then play back. But the key here is that unless you are facing a very short-handed pot, you don't gain much by staying in against a loose-raiser with a marginal hand. Your hand is still marginal against a field of 5 or more.
I DO steal blinds but never outright. I don't ever raise on the button with hands like T4 or 75 and the like. I will in fact almost never raise on the button for a blind steal. Most players know what you are doing. I tend to steal the blinds from the cutoff and usually I will have a mediocre hand. I never steal outright. I'll steal with JTs, or A7 and other crap but not total garbage.
So, I do play with the blinds in mind and I will protect shorthanded. I will also steal from the cutoff or one from the cutoff, if the two players on my left are tight. I will only steal raise with semi-legit hands, never with garbage.
And also, I'll never raise from the blinds without absolute premium hands.
natedogg
"I don't advocate following this advice blindly. If one particular player is raising too much or targeting your blinds and you will see the flop short-handed, then play back. But the key here is that unless you are facing a very short-handed pot, you don't gain much by staying in against a loose-raiser with a marginal hand. Your hand is still marginal against a field of 5 or more"
What about small/middle pairs? What about suited connectors (including one gappers)? Even the small ones?
In pots that involve 5 players in for 2 bets you are getting some monstrous odds for these speculative hands. I will take 5,6s or 4,4 against this field for 11 to 1 odds anyday. Might even raise with it, but I know that's getting a bit frisky.
I agree with your other points.
I went and played in a play money 1 on 1 room on paradise. I was not paying attention to the game that much. I was chatting with the wife and watching tv at the same time. I look down in the message chat box and see him calling me a fish among other things. He then asks me if I have real money in my account I say yes. He tells me to meet him in the 5-10 1 on 1 room. I consider myself to be a very good short handed and 1 on 1 player. Anyways after an hour I took 470.00 from him and although it wasn't a large amount it felt sweet.
n/t
Is it possible he is an expert 1/1 player and this is how he cajoles players into the 1/1 games?
Still nice win. I doubt he'll try that on you again
nt
Perhaps its one of the "Bots" that malfunctioned that I keep reading about......
I recently made a thin value bet on Paradise 3/6 Thoughts?
Game #58706374 - $3/$6 Hold'em - 2001/03/11-21:42:20 (CST) Table "Lucaya" (real money) -- Seat 4 is the button Fortesque: Post Small Blind ($1) WesleyC : Post Big Blind ($3) Dealing... Dealt to WesleyC [ 8h ] Dealt to WesleyC [ 5c ] TireGod : Fold ithica : Fold bigfoot99: Fold Mickeymouse: Fold ren3ren4: Fold wyomustang: Call ($3) pdp dude: Call ($3) Eieio : Fold Fortesque: Fold WesleyC : Check *** FLOP *** : [ 4s 6c 2s ] WesleyC : Check wyomustang: Check pdp dude: Bet ($3) WesleyC : Call ($3) wyomustang: Fold *** TURN *** : [ 4s 6c 2s ] [ Ah ] WesleyC : Check pdp dude: Bet ($6) WesleyC : Raise ($12) pdp dude: Call ($6) *** RIVER *** : [ 4s 6c 2s Ah ] [ Ac ] WesleyC : Bet ($6) pdp dude: Call ($6) *** SUMMARY *** Pot: $50 | Rake: $2 Board: [ 4s 6c 2s Ah Ac ]
pdp dude lost $24 [ 3c 7c ] (a pair of aces) WesleyC bet $24, collected $50, net +$26 (showed hand) [ 8h 5c ] (a pair of aces)
WOW this is one of the loosest calls on the river from pdp dude i've ever seen. Did he thought his 7 kicker was any good? LOL, every hand has him beat, except 75 and 73, then he would split.
Further more, i would have played this hand differently. With your double bellybuster on the flop, i think you should bet out, because you've a good chance of taking the pot right here. I dont like your check-raise on the turn, unless you have a very good read on your opponent that he doesnt have anything. I cant say much more about your play, since you dont give any information about your opponent (i.e. does he bluff often, is he a tricky player, is he tight or loose, aggressive or passive etc etc)
This call can be explained by no man...
He must have wanted to see what you had?!?! I have had players call me at the 1-2 limit for that reason..or they want to show their hand or they are on crazy monkey tilt. Maybe he misread the board and thought he had a straight. Must be nice having this happen at the 3-6 level. How funny..made my day. Thanks for posting.
"crazy monkey tilt".
nice one
natedogg
What exactly do you mean by "thin value bet"?
You hand has no value at all. Your bet was a bluff. (The caller must have misread his hand?)
If pdp will call just about anything (and you know this) then I would say your bet would have to be almost the worst I have seen in a while. The worst has to be his call.
n/t
I'm pretty sure he meant "thin value bet" as a joke, which was pretty damn funny. He pushed a bluff totally buck naked and got called by just about the only hand that could lose to him. It was a funny, incomprehensible hand, and calling it a "thin value bet" was hilarious.
natedogg
Wesley, was this a spur of the moment thing with this player or a planned attack. I would like to understand your thinking. I am sure this player showed himself either to be a fish or on tilt before you played this hand. I thought about this hand a little yesterday.
Great semibluff check raise on the turn when the ace fell. This would make 'almost' any player lay down a small pair..etc..etc. Practically anything he had that went with that flop. Once he calls you, you have to follow thru on the river when you don't hit your double belly and no spade falls. The 2nd ace is a beaut if you KNOW he doesn't have one.
I have used a semi-bluff check raise on the turn in tourneys sometimes. I find that it works better against a 'GOOD/thinking' player than a bad one.
Just curious what your thinking was and why you tried this play against this player. Good hand and good play. Hillarious results. I think it is also funny that he had two of your outs (3/7) were in his hand. I hope I get the chance someday to say "WHAT? YOU ONLY HAVE 7 HIGH? I HAVE 8 HIGH! SHIP IT". Thanks for posting. Please stay out of my 1/2 games :).
Best regards,
Joe
To tell you the truth, I wasn't watching the table very closely at the time. If i had been i would've known that I'd picked the wrong guy to make a move on.
Other than that, the reasoning behind my play of the hand was pretty simple. There are two main reasons i think the check/raise was sound :-
1. I would play a lot of hands that actually have the ace in a similar fashion, anything from AKo to A4 (two pair) i'd pretty much play in an identical fashion.
2. When the turn A comes, even a semi agressive non blind opponent will give it a whack with any 2 there. I sure know i would. I couldn't fold quick enough to a check raise though.
The real trick with semi bluffing is to pick your targets correctly (i was a little off the mark), and to make sure your check raise semi-bluff doesn't stink of a semi-bluff.
The number of pots i've won on 3/6 and 5/T calling down players that check raise the turn after peeling to a backdoor flush draw would easily amount to over 10.
I hope i get a chance to bluff each and everyone of you out ;
WesleyC
Wesley, I have seen you many times on the PP tables. You seem to play 24 housrs a day! Are you a machine or a man that never sleeps? I hope to bluff you out someday soon too.
Has anyone found firewall software that works well with internet poker sites. I have tried Zone Alarm but it cuts off the site. This may be because I am stupid and it is not set-up right but I'm n
Has anyone found firewall software that works well with internet poker sites. I have tried Zone Alarm but it cuts off the site. This may be because I am stupid and it is not set-up right but I'm not sure.
If I don't use a firewall, what are the chances that other players can see my cards?
I have no troubles with ZoneAlarm on paradise or pokerpages or pokerspot. You need to set it up correctly.
I use Zone Alarm and never have a problem playing internet poker. Have you marked Zone Alarm to allow your poker site in??
Incidently, Zone Alarm is rated not only the best but the only firewall that works in all situations (and it's free!).
I use Zone Alarm and have no problem. What did you do on some of the prompts and what does it give you when trying to login to a poker site? As far as someone seeing your cards... If you're using a dial-up service the chances are very slim. However if you have a cable hook-up (Roadrunner) it extremely important to have a firewall because you're always online. That's why I just installed it. Zone Alarm is the best one out there and it's absolutely free! They will give you ongoing offers to take your money if you can benefit from their other products. You must have done something incorrectly when installing it.
Will software like Zone Alarm guarantee that no other players can see my cards?
I don't know the answer to that-maybe you could e-mail the question to Zone Labs???
Additionally, thinking through your question, it seems to me that if someone is trying to "steal" a peek at your cards by hacking into your PC, then Zone Alarm would protect you.
But if someone is somehow (maybe with some sort of very sophisticated technology)intercepting to/from the server(s) at the internet poker site, then I don't think the firewall would help.
Like dsrtfox said try emailing Zone Alarm with that question. They're the only one that can give you a for sure answer on that one. Let us know. If you haven't done so already, read my reply to your original post earlier. GL...
It has been theorized that someone could use a Trojan like Back Office or netbus to spy on your hole cards in online poker. These Trojan’s are viruses that can get into your computer through downloaded programs, executable email attachments, or other exchange of files. Unlike most viruses, however, these Trojan’s just open a port on your computer and listen for commands from a remote computer. These Trojan’s are very dangerous and nasty things. They can be used to steal bank, credit card and password information off your computer.
In principal, these Trojan’s could also be used to peak at your hole cards. There was a site that had a downloadable program to help you analyze Paradise hand histories or something similar. As I recall, it was claimed that the program you downloaded had the netbus Trojan. This may have been an attempt to target online poker players with a Trojan so that they could peak at hole cards.
Your first line of defense against this is to be very careful about downloading programs from the internet and attachments that come with emails. Next, you need to get good anti-virus software and keep it up to date. A firewall like Zone Alarm is a second line of defense. A firewall will block a Trojan that gets on your machine from communicating on the internet, but your primary defense should be to prevent your computer from being infected in the first place.
Hi guys. I'm back on the internet forum after being away for a very long time. At the time I left, there was no talk of anything but collusion by players and cheating by the house. I am glad to see that there is very little of that here right now.
So, I only put cash into my Paradise account last Tuesday, and have played 8 tourneys and a few hours of cash games. Nothing bigger than 6-12 yet. I love the feature in Paradise's lobby that shows the average pot size and the average percent of players seeing the flop. I have 2 questions.
First, does anybody know how many hands back in time these numbers go? Obviously, they don't get adjusted every hand, or you'd see the numbers change drastically, from 20% one hand to 70% the next. So, how many past hands are used to calculate the running averages?
Second, where are the loose HE games? I've yet to see a full or close to full HE table, at (almost) any betting limit, where the percentage of players seeing the flop is higher than about 30%. That's only 3 players at a full table, which is pretty tight compared to almost any real world game I've ever played. In a casino, if the game is that tight, I will typically quit. In a post below, Natedogg is disclosing his ultra-tight HE strategy, and mentions the looseness factor. I just don't see it, as even the $.50/1.00 games don't seem to have much more than 40% seeing the flop, and the higher games, even $1/2, tend to be around or below 30%. What am I missing?
Thanks all. See you at the tables. However, you won't see me, as I am not going by FossilMan, and I don't intend to disclose my Paradise name. You'll have to guess at my identity based upon my seemingly crazy yet somehow winning play. BTW, I love those $50 tourneys. I've made no money playing in 4 of the 20 and 30 events, but have finished 1, 1, 1, and 2 in 4 tries at $50 events. Can't wait until they offer NL HE tourneys, and multi-table events.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think the stats are the last 30 hands. Right now there's an 8-16 at 42%, a 5-10 at 45% and 3 3-6s in the high 30%s.
The games can be quite tight, particularly if there are one or two aggressive players. The best games are where there is passive player in early position when you are on the button/cutoff. You will get 40% seing the flop when your in good position but someone else in the game might not get this loose a game - so the stats are not always a reflection.
That coincides exactly with my own experience. I started playing 5-10 and dropped down to 3-6 and I noticed that the 3-6 game is a little tighter. However, there still are very few tricky aggressive players so straightforward tight play still works.
natedogg
There have been comments here that the games are tougher than live games.
I think it was smoothB that thought that among others.
In the LL O/8 the players are tougher than typical live O/8 games I've been in except in Reno at the calneva.
I think there are more spots to pick from and selection is high. Games "seem" looser on weekend nights.
Regards Mike N
BetTheDraw on Paradise you big chicken.
I played hold'em on Paradise from $10-20 to $2-4 and found the games to be tight as well. I wouldn't necessarily say tought but I would classify them as tight. I played the tournaments too and thought these were looser.
In my experience any game in the mid 30's is plenty loose because the greater number of hands at two tables more than makes up for it. There are almost always some 3-6/5-10/8-16 games at this level. It is extremely rare to find a sustained game at more than 50%, so if it's higher than that assume the game just started.
I suspect that those typically loose casino games where "everyone" seems to be in most pots only average about 50%.
In what way does more hands per hour make up for the table being tight? I admit I have no idea what you're getting at.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Because instead of playing 30 hands per hour at a very loose table (and this is a generous pace) you're playing 120 per hour at a slightly loose table. So if your profit per hand online is only half of what it is in a casino, your hourly rate will double.
This makes sense. However, I would be concerned about the game becoming unprofitable, rather than simply less profitable. If you're a very good player, then you should still be able to come out ahead. However, it would appear that the majority of winning players, who don't win at a very high rate in loose real-world games, would become losers online.
As a hypothetical example, if I were beating the super-loose Oceanside 4-8 kill game for $10/hour, I might actually be a losing player at Paradise. The reduction from 6+ seeing the flop down to 3 seeing the flop would cut your profit from each winning hand by a factor of at least half, yet I suspect you would not win twice as often. If anybody has a nice simulation for this, please share.
I guess the real problem with all those who have whined in the past about beating the real-world games but losing online is that their game is geared to a real-world 3-6 game, not a Paradise (tight) game.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The middle limit games might take true expertise to beat. I'm positive this isn't the case for $8-16 and below, at least not on Paradise. One thing though: roughly halving the number of players seeing the flop will not halve one's hourly rate any more than doubling the number of players will double an hourly rate.
Someone on rgp posted that you should expect your hourly rate to increase 5-fold online. That's not true, but it illustrates the kind of sucess some low limit players are having. If you're a small winner in a casino, say $4 an hour in a 3-6 game, if you won at the same rate online you'd autoamtically pick up several more dollars per hour just in saved time charges/rakes and tokes. If you played two tables you could easily go from $4 to $10 an hour. It's possible that you might not win as much against truly horrible players, but I wonder if one can consistently find games like those (but then I don't live in CA).
Chris, a good game is loose with 30% of the players seeing the flop? That is one, maybe two other players besides the blinds playing. That's a terrible game to me.
I think that you cant compare loose games online with loose live games, as Chris Alger said. For online games, due to the great number of hands, i consider a game with >35% players/flop loose. In live games, this may be normal games. When you play on the right times i'm sure you can find games in the 2/4 3/6 and 5/10 limits with more then 35% players per flop (i mostly play in games with 40%players/flop).
As for the .50/1 games....heck, i've seen games with >70% players/flop.
An interesting point is how many hands are used to calculate the averages. I dont know. But i know players who are very "mobile". They switch immediately when they see a better game. I dont like that. If i see a better game, i often wait about 5-10 minutes, before i switch to the other game. I often play then 2 tables, my old and new one, to see if the new game stays good for a while.
I have found out that people are very mobile to. A couple of days ago I found a ninehanded $5-10 Texas game with 45% seeing the flop (no waitinglist). Quite good! I sat down and one minute later there where 8 people on the waitinglist. I didn´t get a hand for four rounds ($28 in blinds). During this time three people left and when checked Plrs/Flop it was down to 18%. Ten minutes later 11%!! Another ten minutes still 11% and I left the table. Five minutes later the game was breaking up and the scavenger where moving on. Beeing able to see Plrs/Flop is great for the good player. But chasing the very best game all the time causes too many games to break up. A good player should be able to beat most of the games anyway. Right?
I think that the fact that they post pot size and number of players seeing the flop is what causes these games to be tight. Good games can't last long because the good players flock to them based on the indicator. Players come and go from games more rapidly as well, making it more difficult to get reads on opponnents. This feature should be removed as it makes the games less like real world play. Good playes should be able to judge for themselves whether a game is tight or loose without the indicator. I will not play there for this reason.
Since going online at Paradise, I have basically only played tourneys and stud. Both the stud hi and hi/lo games tend to be much looser than HE. The Omaha8 games have been slightly looser than HE but tigher than stud in my limited viewing, while the Omaha hi games have been the loosest of all (very little data, since there has often been no game above 1/2 hi Omaha when I've been online). I consider the HE games at Foxwoods to be some of the tightest I've ever seen for each respective limit, yet they are quite a bit looser than their online counterparts. It is nothing to play 4-8 in SoCal and see 4 people MINIMUM see the flop, with 6+ being more typical.
Maybe the better question is why are the HE games tighter than the other games? If things remain unchanged, you won't find me playing HE, but you'll find me at the other games instead. On a positive note, I played a bit of stud this morning, and noted that an 8-handed 15-30 HE game had a 42% score. That's the highest I've seen yet for a HE game with betting limits higher than 1-2.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You also have to look at the average pot $ amount at the table and the # of hands / hour.
When you see a high percentage say like 42%, look at the average pot and the number of hands played per hour.
If a table was short handed 10 minutes ago and has now filled up, then the % of players seing the flop will still be high but the pot average low and the number of hands per hour high. So this does not necessarily mean a very loose table. And BTW, the games on Paradise are indeed much tighter and much tougher than your average real world games.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
The stats are compiled using 10% exponential smoothing, I believe. The hand just played counts for 10% of the average and the previous average 90%. So if the pot average was $20 and the previous pot was $30, the adjusted pot average would be $21 ((9*20) + 30)/10.
You also have to consider that there will be a few zeros in there when the pot is conceded to the big blind, which will lower the average. It would be enlightening if someone (fossilman!) tracked a live game at Foxwoods to see what the average really is. My quess is that it is higher than online but not as much as you perceive.
I think the reason that the games are tighter at Paradise is partly BECAUSE they are online. People who own computers and are on the net would tend to be more intelligent, well-read, curious, etc. wouldn't they?
Hell, I am, and even though I'm a winner there, I'm nowhere near the best. There are a surprising number of pretty good players at the lower limits, especially at 3-6 and up.
Plus there is no hiding where you stand. Your credit card bills don't lie.
If you have modest needs you can make a steady income with good game selection at 1-2. Some of those stay good for a long time too. When you see pot size of 15 or higher and 40% on the flop, solid poker will get the money. Just don't try to bluff.
I haven't read all the responses so I appologize if this has been mentioned.
Part of the problem are those statitics you like so much (BTW, I think they are based on the previous 30 minutes). An economist could probably theorize this in terms of market effeciency, but the basic thing is that when a table gets loose other players flock to it and get on the waiting list. Soon, the table gets filled with tight players looking for loose action and the table is tight again.
Paul Talbot
is is possible to consistantly beat the paradise 5 10 and 20 tournaments??? anyone care to post their total number of played and 1st 2nd and 3rd places??
I posted mine about a week or two ago. I have been beating them for a couple of months. They are getting harder.
The levels double up quickly, every 10 hands. Early you musn't take any chances, you don't stand to win much on any hand (in relation to future bets), but you can criple your stack. For example, if you get caught up with an average hand in level one, and get beat your stack can dwindle to 650 or so, but only increase to 900 or so if it holds. Not much of a reward because thats less than a bet up to twenty hands later. Basically, you don't want to play many hands early and you don't want to do much raising on specualtive hands. With that in mind, the games you would find most profitable are the ones where the other players are playing opposite. That is lots of hands early, lots of action, and players getting bumped out early. I find that if there are 5-6 (or more) players left when it gets to level 5 or 6 then it becomes a crapshoot. One hand or round of blinds can easily blow any entire stack.
I used to find myself 4/5 handed at level 4 and 5 routinely in the games. It was not uncommon for 2nd high in chips to get knocked out fourth while I'm sitting with one or two chips and the blinds coming up.
Now, I'm noticing the play to be much tighter. If you look at the games in the lobby, you will regularly notice that there are 6/7 players alive at level 6 (that is 400/800 betting). Players will fold to the big blind three straight rounds 4/5 handed. In my expeience, this makes luck the biggest factor at that point. You fold the crap, have an average size stack, then your bb gets raised, you know it's not a "play" and your looking at 63o, you can fold and be left with T300 and the small blind or commit with garbage. No win situation.
The tournies are easy when the fish are in schools, but the structure makes it difficult when there are a couple of smart players in your game. Problem is, you don't have a real shot at "game selection".
Since January 1, 2001 I have played 201 PP tourneys, (mostly 20 & 30, but a few 50 & 100) I have been in the money 74 times or 36.8%. First 24 times, second 31 times and third 19 times, for a net gain of $1,214. I agree that the tourneys are getting tougher as players get more experience, but they are still a lot of fun and you can make the money if you use the right strategy. (You will have to develop your own strategy after you have played a few games) My 2001 results are better than 2000 by almost 5 percentage points. In 2000 I played 382 tourneys and placed 122 times for 31.9% success rate. So as you can see either I am getting better, or the games are getting easier.
Newbie, have you noticed any difference between the different levels you have tried? Perhaps your statistics show that the opponents are tougher at a specific level.
I have only played 30 tournaments and I have finished in the money 11 times (36,7 %). I have played on four different levels: $10, $20, $30, and $50, and I am $120 plus.
I have a feeling (and my statistics show) that I am doing better on the $50 level than on the lower levels. Sometimes there will be real maniacs at the lower levels who will raise and reraise everything, and I have a problem adjusting for this kind of play style.
How is the $100 level?
Jonas
Yes Jonas. The lower levels seem to be a lot more maniacal. I find the $30 level to be fairly sane. The $50 level can go either way. The $100 can also go either way. I have done very well at the higher levels also. I have only played 2 $100 and I won both. So I try to play at the $30 level and above.
I've been playing 230 tourneys ($10): #1:36 #2:20 #3:28
Total: $430
Wins pr tourney: $430/230= $1.87
I would like that number to go way up - around $5 - but I don't think it is possible !?
BTW isn't COOL to win a tourny ? It really makes my day ! How about you ?
First of all I appreciate all the comments and input given on my previous post. I believe some of you may have misunderstood what I was asking. I know that maintaining a 4 1/2BB rate would be obsurd thinking. I don't believe I got lucky as some would say (I have been averaging just over 1 1/2 bb at medium stakes for over a decade). I did mention that I had played less than 50 hours and had only two losing sessions at the time of the post. In other words things were going extremely well for me by playing tight aggressive poker (the way we all think they should). Since then I have had a few losing sessions and my rate has leveled off to about 2 1/4 bb. I'm sure it will level off some more in time. I just wanted some of you winning players at the low limits to give me some of your results to compare to that's all. Thanks again :)
I have indicated a couple of times that I received an email from Andrew at Pokerspot wherein he told me they would be crediting about $400 to my credit card. This was around February 27 that I received this email, Andrew said it would take 3 to 4 days for the credit to show up on my statement. Unfortunately I deleted the email or I would have posted it here. I never bothered to check my credit card statement until it arrived in the mail last night. Unfortunately, and not surprisingly, there has NOT been any amount credited from Pokerspot. In other words what they told me was an outright lie.
It is obvious these scumbags have no intention of doing anything. I, like many others, keeps receiving these emails where they talk about the lawsuit against Netpro. Give me a break, we have been told for the past three months that things will be settled "by next week".
I have emailed Pokerspot and will let you know what happens but obviously I am not holding my breath.
what amazes me is there are some idiots out there who insist they will play there again "once everything is straightened out"
I don't "insist" I will play there again once everything is straightened out, but I very well might. See you at the tables.
First off, I'm sorry that you guys are being screwed by Pokerspot. The owners seem to be constantly feeding you a line of crap to delay paying you what is yours. I believe one of you (player at Pokerspot who posts in this forum) gathered some names, email addresses and amounts owed. It's located in the archives. Anyways, since the owners have done nothing to repay what is owed here's my advice. Since the owner lives in Texas, I suggest you start contacting some people who may be able to give guidance as to what legal action you may take. I suggest that you contact the following agencies...
Better Business Bureau. Their website is ... www.bbb.org, then click on "Locate a BBB", enter "Texas". A list of texas divisions of the BBB will appear. I suggest you start contacting them and explaining what is going on. Perhaps they can give you some advice as to what can be done.
Attourney(sp) General of Texas. The website is... www.oag.state.tx.us, This office may also be able to assist you in recovering your money that is due.
Once again, I suggest you (meaning the person who knows who is owed, and the amounts owed) start taking action. If no action is taken, I worry that other online poker sites may close and keep the player's money.
Keep us posted as to what is happening.
Or better yet who knows someone named Guido who can go visit Russ and "make him an offer he can't refuse". I'll pitch in for that.
You lose credibility(sp) with statements like that. I dont think that the people who are owed thousands are laughing.
We (I) have no sympathy for suckers or has beens, or is i been had, a familiar jingle dont you think.
Well, I know I'M at least not laughing. Whether anyone believes it or not, this situation has hurt us (both our corporation and the employees) just as much as the players we are unable to pay. We'll be releasing a public statement tonight which I hope will detail to everyone's satisfaction what we've been doing and what we intend to do to make this situation right for everyone involved.
Russ Boyd President, Pokerspot.com
.
I thought the owners resided overseas, and that it was the owners of PokerPages who lived in Texas.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
suckers was, suckers been
Has anyone played here or does anyone still play here??
I downloaded their software and logged in at about 1:30 pm est, only to see one table with 2 players (playing 6-12 HE).
Do these guys get tables going on during the evenings?
Do they payout quick and on time??
Thanks for the help guys!
I tried Delta. There was rarely more than one table going for the couple of weeks I played there. The level of play was poor relative to Paradise (the 10-20 at Delta is a much easier game than most of the Paradise 10-20s). I didn't like the layout or the irregularity of the games so I left. A check arrived rather quickly.
Paul Talbot
when will paradise poker be offering 7 stud tournaments?? anyone know??\ whenthey started hosting holdem events they told me that 7stud was right around the corner. what can be so damn hard about adding it??
and one more question i have been playing a few 5 tournaments just to look at the competition, and my question is this
is the luck factor so small that an experienced tournament player should be able to finsih in the money almost every time???
I have played 5 and finished 1st twice 2nd twice and 3rd once.
can i KEEP this up??
is the 10s much harder??
The luck factor is pretty high, and I suspect that somewhere between 100-150% return is the best anyone could ever achieve. That is, for every $5 tourney you play, your profit if you're the greatest player in the world will be something like $4-$6.50 per tourney (adjusting for the $1 rake). In a $10 event, it would be $9-$14. However, anyone who averages even a 50% return is a very good player.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think it would be nuts to play $5 with 20% vig instead of $10 with 10% vig.
Hello fellow players, It is time to get tough with Russ Boyd, Pokerspot, Card Player, PokerPages and Poker Digest. I am planning to fly to Las Vegas next week and set up an apponitment with the Clark County District Attorney and/or his representative about the fraud Pokerspot has perpetrated along with the complicity of the above mentioned media companies. This is our only out right now, i fancy the idea of putting Linda Johnson, the Shilman brothers, Napolitano and June Field in the Clark County hoosegow. They are all guilty of steering honest poker players to the Pokerspot website in exchange for financial compensation. The Nevada authorities do not look kindly on this kind of fraud and all face 10 years and up in the Nevada State Prison. I need the names ans amounts due of all players who are owed money from Pokerspot. You can e-mail me at daytrader28@earthlink.net or call me at 609-266-8435. The time for bullshit is over, all of these media companies knew that Pokerspot was ripping off players and continued to advertise and direct players to the Pokerspot site. The gloves are off and i am going after any and all who are involved. There is no chance we will get our money back in any other fashion.
Grow Up
Neal is a hero.
Neal actually got a couple things right in his prior posts before anyone else appeared to have done so.
I believe he was the first to alert readers on RGP that he believed Pokerspot was having cash-flow problems. This was before such problems surfaced publicly.
He was also the first, I believe, to alert players that the banking tide was turning against online gambling sites; that certain banks would no longer approve credit card transactions for on-line gambling, and that the trend in this direction would increase.
Neal was right about a lot of things. He's wrong, though, that intentional fraud has been committed by anyone involved with Pokerspot, with the exception of Net Pro Ltd.
As far as any of our advertisers facing legal liability for the situation at hand, in order for a fraud to be committed, intent must be proven. I can personally state without a doubt that the Fields, the Schulmans, ConJelCo, and all of our other advertisers had absolutely no idea, or any reason to believe, that our processed funds would be frozen.
We have not been sitting idly by in this whole situation. We will be releasing a public statement tonight which will outline what we have done and what we intend to do in order to make good on all pending cashouts.
Russ Boyd President, Pokerspot.com
Well, this should be interesting.... My guess is that you have 1 of 2 choices.
1. Either take out a business loan and pay the requested cashouts of your customers(and hope that enough stay to keep site alive) or
2. Sell the software (you did say that you would do that as a last resort), pay your customers what you owe and chalk this up as a learning experience.
It will be interesting to see what you decide to do Mr. Boyd.
singing...'don't you know that you're my hero...lah lah lahhhh dah dah deee dooo...
If you bank with certain major US banks, your days of using your bank card for deposits is over. I wonder how hard this will hit the site. I know I'm not sending a check to Costa Rica.
Anyone got any details on this? What banks are involved? How many of them?
It doesnt sound too great :/
Chris
The days of the crooks on this forum belittling honest players are numbered! Boo, hoo, hoo for all the corrupt racketeers!
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Major U.S. banks as of March 12th are no longer accepting merchant code 015 ( I believe that's the code # ) which is the gaming transaction code. They ( The Banks) no longer wish to have their customers using the cards for gaming. I assume this is within their rights. This has already been going on at the major banks and will most likely ripple its way to the smaller banks that issue cards.
Then I guess I'd better charge a lot of money now, so that I will be sufficiently bankrolled for the future.
;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
When you say bank cards, do you mean ATM/Check cards or credit cards like Chase Visa and Mastercard?
Why would you EVER use your credit card for gaming related activities in a 3rd world country?
You open a debitcard checking account specifically for this purpose and use the debit card for all your transactions. THAT is what anyone with a brain does. You only have $ in the account coming in or going out of the online account, you NEVER leave $ in the account so any theft or abuse of the number is as low a risk as possible.
I went to a small bank and opened such an account last year when I decided to give Paradise a whirl, and I sat down and told the bank officer exactly why I was doing this so I knew the banks policies etc. The only time $ is in the account is if I cash out, or cash in, so for about a 6 hour window $ is in the account otherwise it's at $0 balance.
Does paradise still charge you the %fee like in credit cards which you then must play x hours to get back?
nt
Yes yes yes : ) Very good advice.
I have to say tho - I used a debit card to start playing on PP. Account has about 2500 USD in it - none has been stolen by PP.
I requested a cashout on monday - money's in my account right now - credited to my creditcard just like they say - no cost to me.
In short - PP seems trustworthy to me, when I loose I usually loose because I make mistakes. Sometimes I loose because other players make mistakes like going to the river on three flushes at 5th and connecting on the river. As we know, players who make mistakes like this should be encouraged : )
Bad beats happen more when you play a good game, because you have a higher starting requirement.
I've had a flush drawing agaist me when I had an obviously better hand - I made a killing. I've only once seen a guy fold good cards because someone else looked better. I once folded a 5th street straight because I had a bigger straight betting against me, I rasied and he reraised, showdown he showed a king high straight - not something you'll see from the fish, which is what makes them fish ;-)
BlueEyes, my refernnce to safety wasn't directed at Paradise, its the whole concept of using a credit card in cyberspace when a much safer alternative exists.
I tried to use my CC on Paradise Poker Today. Nice Dice. It looks like my days of online poker are almost gone as my current account is near zero.
Any suggestions out there as to what to do. I am quite fond of online poker and would hate to quite. I am also weary of sending a money order or cashiers check through a courier service. I would hate to pay all those charges.
Walt
it' so sad that this racket is finally going to go under....boo..hoo.hoo
My card still works ok, so does the card of a co-worker. I am not sure what the problem is but it is not affecting everyone.
My visa card works fine too!
My understanding of the situation is that it may be Visa & MC cards from a few local banks in the USA. All one needs to do is apply for a new card from a bank or institution that will not block your deposit request to a poker site.
If you are worried too about your card number being misused over the internet than set a small maximum limit (I use my $500 limit card) a on one of your cards.
Wow....this was the most amazing day i ever had online. I played 3/6 and lost about 250 dollar in about 3 hours, and i wouldnt have played a hand differently.
I know this is a bad beat/whine story, but this is the first time i had to quite online because i went on tilt. I had 3 times AA!!!(none of them held up)...., 4 times KK...one of them held up because everyone folded...KQs Flop KKrag.....lost to K5o who made a boat on the river. Straights beaten by runner runner flushes, my flushes beaten by higher flushes (like my KdQd hand which lost from a Ad2d flush) etc etc
Sigh....thats a relieve.
Sorry if i annoyed you.
Shit happens. I won 1,700 over the weekend Fri-Sun, only to give back 900 in a 3 hour session on Monday. Played 10-20, 15-30, and 20-40 limits on PP.
A swing like that should be routine for the limits you are playing.
natedogg
I know...but when i wrote it i was just tilting...after all those bad beats. Now two hours later i dont really care anymore
Yesterday evening I lost with quad Js to a str8 flush. Board was JhTh8h8xJx. I had JJ, he had 9h7h. Unfortunately I was not at highlands. Paradise 5-10. Also not a bad beat since he FLOPPED the damn thing. I'll bet its a while before I lose with a hand that good again.
awesome. you will probably NEVER lose again with a hand that good. your's was one of the first real bad beats ive read in a long time.
MIKE (who made his first, and probably last, royal flush last night, heads up even!)
Windavis, thank god we don't have a bad beat jackpot. That was tougher than my mom's steaks she cooks.
We must be living in a paralell universe or somthing. My holdem game has been going like this also. Playing tight and only playing good flops. Holding AA, flop an ace, blank, blank, to make a set. Last two cards seven, seven. Yahoo rolled up aces over sevens. Of course gets beat by quad sevens.
n/t
.
n/t
They planned it that way. There has to be something very fishy going on there. I seem to hear these stories all to often. I've returned to the live game. At least you can see the people who's kicking your buttocks.
Hi, I've read above about people who think PP is crooked because this happens.
You are playing _far_ more hands than you would in a live game - this itself leads to more weird hands - like quads v straight flush.
I've seen about 10 quads - after playing in about 2000 hands and watching ten times that.( Playing super tight 0.5/1 no ante I fold anything lower than 88 with high card kicker/three flushes with max two dead cards/same for open ended three straights on third ) Two of those quads were mine.
I've seen excatly three straight flushes, one of which was mine : )
I play 10c,10h on the button. I raise before the flop and p/u three callers including both blinds. Flop is beautiful. A,8,10 but two diamonds. I've got the set.
SB checks, BB checks, then there is a bet, I raise (I don't slowplay shit online!).
SB calls. BB folds. Bettor calls. Turn card is a Jd making three diamonds on board. I don't have one but I've only got two players in. SB checks, previous bettor checks. I bet. SB check-raises. Only I call and we are heads up. I'm thinking, hey SB coulda p/u the flush. I thought he would've raised pre flop if he had the KQ but no matter. Straight or flush I need to pair the board.
River card is a blank except its a fourth diamond. SB bets. I know I am almost certainly beat but for some reason I'm dying to see his cards. I call.
He turns over a pair of 7s, one of them a diamond making a flush.
Now think about this. First the guy can't legitamately even call the flop without knowing he's going to catch runner-runner diamond. And he can't even like his seven high flush unless he knows the cards both a bettor and a raiser have.
If I had slow played this or he picked up a 7 on the turn or something then it has some sense to it. But ck raising into a raised board where every card is higher than his pair with the hope that he'll get a fourth diamond to make a seven high flush?
No, I don't buy it. It was the last online hand I'll ever play.
Jeez man - there are many poor players online. So sometimes you get a bad beat - these things happen. I once had a player calling me before showdown when I had a pair of Jacks on the board - and he couldn't beat it - I mean think of it - he can't beat jacks but he still calls my bet - no more cards to come!
This happens alot in the casinos to, more often in the lower limits. If you can't handle theses types of bad beats via online poker then you can't never play hold'em live, because alot of bad beat artists like to fire verbal insults in the process.
In live poker last year I won $22,000 and bought a Ford Explorer Sport Trac....since you think you can tell me that because I question a bizarre hand I don't know how to play. I'm wondering what kind of brand new vehicle you purchased with your winnings last year?
This year on very limited play, because I moved to an area remote from Card Rooms, I am up just over 2,000 despite numerous bad beats on line. If I just tracked my live play seperately, I am up $3350 so far. So I guess the reason I get beat online most of the time is because I am a bad live game player huh?
So what? This guy tried to put a play on you and missed. You flop middle set with a 2 flush on board and the SB made you for the set & then figured he may be able to bet you off of it if a 3rd flush card hit. He check raised you as a bluff and you still called (believing you were beat) hoping to pair the board, (a + EV move)
When the 4th diamond hit he could be somewhat sure his flush was good, since most likely your flopped set had no diamond. This would be even more likely if the flopped ace was a diamond (elimiating any chance you hit the nut flush). He bet in hopes of a call from a set or a fold if you held 8d or Td.
If you are one of the many on-line ultra-tight players out there then he simply read you and tried to make a play knowing you were capable of a laydown. Even if he is unsuccessful and misses the scare card or runner -runner he can show you the "horrible" play he made and maybe make up for it later with calls since he is a "fish". I make plays like this all the time in the right game against the right players. It is fun and sometimes profitable. If I made you for a rock and you folded to my check raise, I'd have shown you my 77 and waited for the table to "tilt" my way.
end of messege
Judging by your lucid an well thought analysis I will pose this:
First the 77 called the flop after a player bet and I raised with the board all overcards. So your telling me he called, because he KNEW I was ultratight and he KNEW that if he smooth called with the the under pair that the original bettor would not re-raise me and he KNEW that on the turn the original bettor would check and fold, providing him with the opportunity he had planned so long for, of making a MOVE against my set with his seven high flush draw. That seems a bit far fetched to me.
If we were heads up on the flop then your explanation but this guy would have to have KNOWN that the original bettor would fold out on the turn so that he could make this move. Geezz...that's past cheating, that's completely clairvoyant!
John, you are simply giving your opponent too much credit as a player. He stuck around, and yes he called those bets and raises on the flop, just in case he hit a set with his sevens. Its that simple - you'll win money off this player over time.
You make a lot of assumptions John. Many, many players will call the flop with a pair of 7's in a situation like this, it doesn't mean that this player knew the cards to come. After the turn he also has a gutshot straight draw. Coupled with the outside chance of winning with a flush or hitting a third 7 there are many, many players who will see this to the river. Some people just can't let go of a pocket pair.
I know because I *used* to be one of them.
Lets call this one when weak tight meets loose agressive. He made a move on you on the turn. You are only looking at your own cards. He saw an opportunity to try and push you off your hand with that scary scary board. Hard to believe someone would do this huh? You went all weak tight and let him. I can see where this hand might distrub you. Personally, because I am a crazy fool when I flop a set, I would have repopped him on the turn. Heads up your set is dy-no-mite. It would have cost you the same amount of money as crying call on the river..and he might have given up on that little move he was trying to make and never got to see his 7 high flush was good... You gotta be agressive. If you can't do it with a set, I'm not really sure what you can do it with. What a waste of a set of 10's..give them to me! oh he raised me...oh oh woe is me...RERAISE!!!
Yeesh...Questioning Paradises integrity because of one lousy hand.
Not to diminish your pain, but fluctuations of this magnitude in 3/6 online are commonplace due to the high rate of speed at which hands are dealt.
It occurred to me that the post below on this subject defined a weak-tight game. So I'm thinking its wrong, but in fact that is very much the way I have played in my best sessions. Agression just doesn't seem to pay in these games (low-limit .50-1 to 3-6). I have been called down by Ace-high 4 times in the last 2 days so I now resolve not to 'bluff' without at least a pair, except in those '1st bet wins' situations.
I would be careful in deciding not be aggressive. I personally play extremely aggressive. I have often capped it on the flop with top pair and won a big pot. I think you should play phenomenally tight preflop, perhaps tighter than than is truly possible, but you should at least try.
You should also play extremely tight post flop, but not weak tight. You should give up with AK when you miss, but if you hit you should be betting and raising like a madman. You will get tons of action normally, even if you make it four bets, you will often be in the lead.
Play very aggressive. I recomment playing classic tight aggressive poker with the tightness ratcheted up about 3000 notches and the aggression also ratcheted up pretty high.
The only difference is that you never bluff. Push your mediocre hands hard, but don't bet with A high. That is a bluff and you should pretty much never bluff when playing on PP.
natedogg
For all of you who are following my comments about online strategy:
I experimented a bit the other day and started calling people down more when my top pair was getting bet into. Most people seemed to be so appalled at my suggestion that you should fold more on the river that I thought maybe I'm way off base here.
I came to that conclusion through hundreds of hours of online play but what the hell, I'll try a new tactic.
Well, it was a disaster. I ran pretty cold that night to begin with, but this did not help matters. I am more convinced than ever that it is normally correct to fold the turn and/or river if you are facing aggression after you've raised preflop, raised the flop with top pair, and now face another bet on the turn/river. You are done. Fold every time. If the scare card comes and they start betting, believe them. They are not bluffing.
natedogg
I have to agree natedog, I have saved a ton when I discipline myself to lay down decent hands when facing agression after raising. They are rarely bluffing. Although I will play a habitual agressive bluffers.
I agree with you (as i stated before), that you have to be tight...and VERY aggressive. IMO the biggest mistake is not to be aggressive...wow i had many many times when A4o paid off my AK/AQ.
And I dont know who recommended calling more in online play, but it surely wasnt me, as IMO it's the biggest money loser in online play. Ok, so what if he takes 3 small bets by bluffing me out on the flop with his 95o. Let him take it. I take it back when he hits his weak ace and he bets like a madman, and take it down with my AK.
I always take turn raises very seriously, and in my experience they should be. In online play it almost always comes down to the flop. I pretty much know about every hand that i play what kind of flop i want, if i dont hit that..i just muck them. Dont think to much in terms of like an AK hand and a low raggedy flop that noone should have hit, so you have the best hand. Heck, almost always someone hit a small pair, and you dont want to lose 2 more BB to pay off his baby pair.
Hi : ) 7-stud.
I agree with you except for one thing - you can bluff some players on PP, but you have to know which players you can bluff and who you can't bluff.
I bluffed off trips once - my board looked like a flush and I bet and raised hard.
I usually raise when I have A up on third if there are few players in the pot, if 7 guys have called I don't of course. Makes me tons of money when the game is tight. I employ this strategy because the regulars know I'm a seriously tight player and they get scared when I raise ;-)
Also - a general side note, I've noticed many players who check on showdown even if they know they are beaten - bad idea! - you're showing people what your starting requirements are without getting anything in return.
Hey Natedogg, I have enjoyed your posts on LL games and you hit the nail on the head on poker strategy. I have made a lot of money in a short amount of time on PP in the .5/$1 games using my strategy which is right in-line with yours. Excellent posts.
Just playing tight isn't enough.
If you only play AK and pairs TT-AA, you are going to play 7 hands in 200. If the rest of the table chooses to fold (including limpers) unless they have a Group 1 hand, every time you raise, you will only make about 24.5 bets from the 200 hands, even if you catch 2 limpers every time. You will have posted 30 bets in blinds in a full game.
In a loose game the key money making hands are in late position with several callers in an unraised or once raised pot. I believe that a good player (I don't claim that I am one)can play almost any hand profitably in these situations.
The other key skill is defending blinds in a tight game. If you are not very good at this, you should probably forget about playing in any game with less than 25% seeing the flop.
Dave,
Please don't forget that we are talking about the lower limits on PP. We are not talking about the 20-40 here. The reason Nate's strategy works is that there always seem to be players around that will pay you off when you make big hands. Some others on there try to play tight..but they just can't seem to manage it. It is just amazing to me. I hope it never changes. The table does not choose to fold as you say in your post. He is talking about playing good hands in good position and playing very tight before and after the flop. He is also talking about getting wicked agressive when the flop hits you. From my experience that gets the money on Paradise Poker. It is just that simple at the lower limits. It is a VERY simple formula. I am glad more people don't follow it. Yes you will have times when those bad players suck out on your big hands..but as long as you have enough time to play and a large enough bankroll for the limit you are playing, you will get paid back three-fold the times they hold up. They will hold up more often than not.
You can also add to this equation that you can play two tables at once..so you can play many many more hands. While you may not be a huge earner with this strategy, your earnings are doubled because of playing two tables and doubled again because of the increased hands per hour on paradise.
I am not saying this is the perfect strategy..but if you want one that will consistently earn money and lower your variance..it is the s*its. You can sit around and wait and wait..and sooner or later it will happen..you will have the nuts and 3 or 4 fish will be calling you down or even sometimes betting into you. Just uncanny. The only thing that scares me is from the above post..they are talking about taking away the fishes credit cards..man I hope they don't do that.
Best regards,
Jo-Jo the dogfaced boy
The solution to the credit card problem couldnt be simpler.
Obtain a debit card. Open a checking account for your poker that has a debit mastercard/visa and you are all set.
Actually that is the type of card that no longer works.
Actually NO it is not. Why would they stop this, they have NO liability for it, as opposed to CREDIT CARDS which they are stuck with the uncollectable "gambling debt" which isnt legally recognized in most states.
Here's my last reply... It's not Paradise Poker that is blocking the withdrawl -that would be dumb- what's happening is Visa and MC now code these withdrawl requests as "gaming" (including ones made from debit cards) and the banks will refuse it. Thus a debit/bank card with Visa or MC on it won't work anymore because of the way the withdrawl is coded and the bank's idiotic rules.
Sounds nice and logical and all, but umm....well....my Mastercard checkcard still works fine.
My visa card works fine too!
My understanding of the situation is that it may be Visa & MC cards from a few local banks in the USA. All one needs to do is apply for a new card from a bank or institution that will not block your deposit request to a poker site.
If you are worried too about your card number being misused over the internet than set a small maximum limit (I use my $500 limit card) on one of your cards.
Dude, Visa and MC _CREDIT CARDS_ will eventually all be blocked from gambling purchases, no doubt. Why, because there is no state that recognizes gambling debts as LEGAL DEBTs so anyone can run up $TONS$ and then say OOPS I don't have to pay. Obviously this is a bad thing for the banks holding the credit. It is only still allowed by any who are literally TOO STUPID TO LIVE as a business, and haven't been stung yet. Eventually they will all stop allowing it. How this impacts ATM cash advances or chip cage cash advances at casino's is up in the air ;-)
NONE of this has anything to do with DEBIT CARDS which are not DEBT related. There is no reason for DEBIT cards to be affected. Also, as I said, anyone using thier CREDIT CARDS to buy chips from a cybercasino in a thirdworld country is NUTZ. It's so easy to find a no minimum balance no fee checking account with a debit card, and then us that for these transactions, that you are a FOOL, a LAZY FOOL, to do otherwise. And if you think DEBIT cards are treated exactly like credit cards by Visa and MC, try renting a car from Hertz with a debit card.
are 100% correct.
You know if your information is consistently wrong, people will eventually stop listening to you.
Wipe the salvitating dribble of your mouth and put Visine in your glassy eyes, settle down open up your concrete mind to some sound advice on your future monetary transactions, you're way behind the times
why are you looking here..it says (N/T)!! I was bluffing..ehehehehe..
Hi, I'm not 100% sure about this but I recall seeing a woman suing, and winning, her credit card company after she lost $30 000 playing at an online casino. Basically the court said the cc company should have looked after her interest, and since it was illegal to gamble in her state the cc company shouldn't have let her. This is probably why the creditcard companies have said "we do not want this to happen again".
The downside is too big for the creditcard companies to justify the risk.
....it was a little over $70,000 in losses. The final decision was not based on the company looking after her, it was based on a very specific California civil codes that makes the collection of gambling debts illegal in the state. Many other states have similar laws. It is why--if you were less than, ahem, honest and lost your ass at one of the Internet sites. You could tell your credit card company you didn't make the charges. They would reverse the charge and Paradise or Planet or no one else could win against you in court in the vast majority of states.
It is also why if you bounce a check in Nevada at a casino, they will ding your credit rating and place the debt on all your credit reports, they will rant and rave and threaten, but they will never ever take you to a California court to collect.
I used to run an attorney's office. The law is so specific in California that the casinos don't bother taking it to court. That was the law the lady used to beat the debt. There were other things said in the decision and in the briefs, but the specific law that saved her booty was that one.
If you live in California you can go to your local law school and find it in the civil codes.
The credit card company suffered on this one and it set a precedent. I'm surprised they haven't rejected gambling charges sooner, but I'm guessing it has to do with the fact that there was only one high profile case.
Thanks for the clarification : )
Nice to hear some sound,fact based stuff here too ;-)
Crazy Jim;
I haven't followed all of this (too lazy) but I'm curious: If my VISA card company still honors buy ins what is the advantage to using a debit card instead?
Thx
according to CJ, the advantage is that you would never leave more in the checking acct. assoc. with the debit card than you were willing to risk if the card number were stolen.
Hence, if you knew that all you wanted to risk on PP on Friday night was $200 to play 3/6, then that is all the money you would have in the account. That way, you make the deposit, and if in the process your card number is stolen or something, they try to charge against it the card comp. turns down the charge because of no money. Whereas if you had a $5,000 credit card and made a deposit, a fraudulent use could grab a chunk of money.
As others have pointed out, credit card companies only hold you liable for $50 of fraud use anyway though. However, I think several of the posters here are correct that within another six months regular credit cards will not allow gambling type deposits, and debits more than likely will.
However, considering the money involved, I think the gambling sites will find their way around the new rules quickly, calling themselves travel sites or club dues, etc.
Not sure as to which message in this thread I'm responding to so I'll just tag it here on the end. There are some financial institutions (Banks, Credit unions) that are no longer allowing charges to be applied to online gambling sites. It is the BANK'S or CREDIT UNION'S decision. Not the CC companies. To find out your CC's rules, just call the bank that issued it and ask to talk to someone and ask that person what their policy is regarding online gambling charges.
I think the debit card v. credit card debate is almost meaningless. Just like if your credit card is stolen or used fraudently, you're only liable for $50 in charges if you notify them within a set time limit that it has been stolen or is being used frauduently. So, you're risk at PP or anywhere else on teh internet is no more than the risk of someone going through your trash and finding credit card receipts.
And $50 is less than is usually lost in the horrible suckouts we all get to read about here when a hapless full house is cracked by river quad 2's.
bingo!!! as an ex-visa employee, i can tell you that u are 100% right here. Also, they dont bother to make you pay $50 if u are a good customer. They just dont want to lose your business
This post will likely only be of interest to U.S. residents. Also, please nobody say anything to me relating to avoidance of taxes entirely, as in hiding income. As an attorney, the state bar looks really unkindly on me if I'm convicted of a crime involving fraud, as in filing fraudulent tax returns. I intend to declare everything, so the questions herein are only pertinent to doing it so the IRS is happy.
In the real world of casino gambling, I know how to keep records as required by the IRS. Everytime I change tables (except in a tourney), a new session starts. Every session must be recorded separately, and you have to use this data to do your tax filing at the end of the year. So, what about online gambling like at Paradise?
At Paradise, I use my credit card to put money in an account. I then sit at a table (or 2) and play. In between sessions, my money is not liquid. At the casino, I can turn those chips into cash in a minute, and when I leave the casino, I always do so, meaning I have cash on hand. Online, I've yet to request a check (I'm new to it, and am building up a 20-40 bankroll, so I don't expect to cash out anything very soon). Does anyone know if the IRS has spoken on this issue? Do you have to record your results table-by-table, as in the real world? Or, can you count buyins via credit card as losses, and cash-out checks as wins, and record those in a manner analogous to sessions? Any other ideas, or questions I need to ask?
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
bee a resident of Quatar then you dont need to pay taxes :)
>>Online, I've yet to request a check (I'm new to it, and am building up a 20-40 bankroll, so I don't expect to cash out anything very soon). Does anyone know if the IRS has spoken on this issue? Do you have to record your results table-by-table, as in the real world? Or, can you count buyins via credit card as losses, and cash-out checks as wins, and record those in a manner analogous to sessions? Any other ideas, or questions I need to ask?<<
I haven't read anything regarding this but I would guess you have to do it the same way it's done for live poker. Say you are in the fortunate position of starting out with $1000 and run it up to $10,000 but leave it all in Paradise. I would think that the IRS would want their share of the $9000 winnings you made as soon as they could get their hands on it. If you could leave it there indefinitely and the IRS said you didn't owe taxes until you cashed out any money would surprise me a great deal but stranger things have happened.
First item, the $ in your PP account is in CostaRica, you dont ANY taxes on it until profits come back into the US. This would be the same with any business activity outside the US. For years I did business in Germany and the UK, but only when my distributor actually paid me were the taxes on profits due to be dealt with. A couple times I had them delay payment just to move into the next quarter, etc.
Second, the easiest way to calculate your profit is buyins vs cashouts because that really gets documented well....you have the ccard receipts, and you have the check deposits. This even lets you legitimately cook the books just before taxtime with buyins, and cashouts.
1. Liquidity is not an issue, if you're entitled to it
it's yours for tax purposes (see constructive receipt of income)
2. I would keep the same records that you keep in the casino supplemented by hand histories (which can be as doctored as a diary) but would represnt additional contemporaneous data.
You would keep (are keeping?) every hand history of every hand you've ever played? What a task.
If that were required, I'd just quit playing online.
I probably do need to start recording everything else, however. Maybe we can all talk Paradise into providing a log that does that for us. A log of when you arrived at a table, with how much $, when you left, and with how much $, with also the name, game, and table limits.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
All that is relevent is on a quarterly basis, how much you won or lost on the site. That is easily monitored because the $ comes in and out through a single door. The rest is a silly waste of your time....other than self monitoring of your progress as a player.
Im assuming you are using a schedule C too, why wouldn't you persue this as a side small business.
Dont even think about using home office shit etc, but you may be able to get away with deducting the computer you use for this if you are using it exclusively for this purpose. You might also get away with the cablemodem bill as an expense, again keep a phone modem account active to refute your using the cablemodem account for regular internet access. Etc, etc.
CrazyJim said:
"Dont even think about using home office shit etc, but you may be able to get away with deducting the computer you use for this if you are using it exclusively for this purpose. You might also get away with the cablemodem bill as an expense, again keep a phone modem account active to refute your using the cablemodem account for regular internet access. Etc, etc."
This confuses me. Admittedly, I live in Canada, so perhaps taxation is very different, but my understanding is that in both the U.S. and Canada, almost anything that is used primarily for business purposes can be deducted in whole or in part from business income (here, your poker winnings). For example, my home computer, internet connection, office space, books and other educational materials, etc. In my case, my primary use (certainly in terms of time)for all of these things is playing poker over the internet. Of course, I spend time doing things with all of these items unrelated to poker (personal email, surfing, playing games) but I would think that this does not invalidate the fact that I use it primarily for business purposes. After all, if I buy a computer for use at work, it doesn't mean that I can't use it for any other reason. (If it did, I'd bet that 99.9% of work computers couldn't be claimed!) Now, I'm certain that I couldn't go back a couple of years and claim the expense for computer, since I wasn't even playing internet poker then. But that's a different matter. CPA, am I wrong about this?
Kevin
I'll let you in on a secret.....If you try to use the home office deduction for this stuff....you WILL be audited, period. Avoid all the red flag issues that have the IRS man and his magnifying glass crawl up your ass.
You are correct about the law (at least to my understanding, which may be wrong), but wrong as to the application. If you go for the home office deduction, the IRS will likely give you a lot of grief, including an audit. And, from what I've heard, they want that office to be used for NOTHING but business, or they will find that it is a personal office that is sometimes used for business, and disallow the deduction. It seems they want you to show that but-for your business activities, you wouldn't even own that office/computer/book/etc.
Of course, if you ask a professional, you'll get a more reliable answer.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
use the technology provided by PP. click on chip box, request hand history, last 100 hands once per hour if 1 table ,twice per hour if 2 tables.
I found a guy who will read data and return it to me in queryable form. 5$ per hundred hands
What is your advice on using a Schedule C to report gambling winnings/loses and related expenses, such as travel, lodging, meals, subscriptions, software, books etcetera ?
Applies to US Citizens.
When you play at Paradise Poker what locality are you actually playing in? The site originates from Costa Rica and I assume the money you put in your account ends up as a transaction in Costa Rica. So I would think that you could make a case that the games originate in Costa Rica and all of the money is basically transacted in Costa Rica, you could make a case that you were playing the game in Costa Rica. Say your playing a heads up match against someone who is logged in from London, England. Is the game being conducted in Costa Rica, London, and the USA? Consider this, if you go to Monte Carlo and win a bunch of money at the roulette wheel are you as a US citizen subject to paying US taxes on this money? I honestly don’t know the answer but I suspect you are. If you are not then couldn’t the money won at Paradise be viewed in the same light as money won in a foreign country?
I am not 100% but I think as long as you are a resident in the USA, you must pay taxes on ANY amount of money you make wether it be in the states or not. The reason why I think this is that my friend is origanlly from Germany, he has a substantial amount of money in a bank account in Germany and he was told that he must pay taxes on the interest that money makes in the German account.
As a US citizen, any money earned (won) is subject to Federal taxation. The only thing you might get out of based on this thinking would be your state taxes.
I travel a lot for work and sometimes if I stay in a state for a significant period of time, and it has lower taxation than California, I will have my withholding form for those pay periods reflect that I am working in that state. It's not worth the trouble for a few days stay, but like last year I was living in Cali. and worked in Denver for six straight weeks.
I had those six weeks witholding based on Denver, and reported those six weeks income to Denver. It has a double benefit in that Denver has about half the income tax rate and since it was my only six weeks in Denver last year I made very little in that state and could expense most of it off.
If you were so inclined and had made enough on Paradise to be worth the trouble, you could probably make a similar argument though I think the state tax authorities would contend (if it involved enough money that they cared, which it probably wouldn't if we are talking 10K or less) that because your body was in Cal. you earned money in Cal.
Please note that the operative phrase "if you go to Monte Carlo" is not the same as sitting at your computer in the USA,where if you are a resident, you pay taxes on your income no matter what geographic location it is derived from.
Has anybody had a problem cashing E-commerce checks in the US
So, you come to a table, and buyin for $100. A few bad beats later, you want to add to your stack from your bankroll. How do you do it without leaving the table and coming back? If there's a big wait list, you may not get back for quite a while, and when you do, the game probably won't be any good anymore. I figure there should be a way to add to your stack without leaving, but I can't figure it out.
Second, can you change seats at the table without leaving the table and coming back? Same reason, you don't want to leave for fear the wait list will prevent you from returning, but you do want to get position on somebody. In the flop games, do they have rules like real-world casinos with regard to whether you have to post or not to get in after moving seats?
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
click on the dealer chip tray.
Derrick
About your hand hisatory post below. You can have upto your last 100 hand histories emailed to yourself. Click on the tray to do this as well. That way you don't really have to work too hard to save this at all. Also, it gives you a little bit of extra info, such as hands that call but don't show on the river. Note, this information about you is given out as well.
Derrick
Don't click on the tray while in a hand, wait until you have folded a hand. On two occassions in the past after using the dealer tray my "Bet Call Fold" buttons haven't appeared and I was put all-in.
I am unsure if Paradise has fixed this problem as I won't go near the tray while in a hand.
You can always get more chips by just clicking on the dealers box of chips in the middle.
As for moving seats, I think you have to leave and then rejoin but not sure.
-SmoothB-
In order to get more $ click the chip tray.
You cannot change seats without leaving the table.
Correct. To date I have not seen any poker site which allows you to change seats without actually leaving the game. Would be nice if some site had that option.
Been playing PP for a couple of weeks. (Took one week off because I was very busy.)
Started with 100 buy in and built that up to 500 over a couple of weeks playing .50-1.00 up to 2-4. Since the bigger games didn't seem much tougher, I decided to increase my bankroll so that I could move up faster.
Bought in another 600 making my BR 1100, 700 of which was bought and 400 winnings. This was today. Today I won another hundred + playing 2-4 up to 5-10. Bankroll is now 1230. Life is good.
Whoever said these games are tough, crooked, fixed, or whatever are way off track. These games are fantastic. And, they go so fast, playing 2 3-6 games at once is more like playing a 12-24 game. And the opposition is always weak.
Gosh, if I can keep on winning 20 bucks an hour, and if this increases as I move on up to the bigger games, maybe I'll stop going to live games completely?!?! Nah, probably not.
PP is a wonderful thing!
-SmoothB-
$1200 for a 5-10 game is a woefully inadequate bankroll. I have 1200 and I don't play higher than 3-6, which is still pretty much playing with fire. I had a $500 losing streak the other day in just 5 hours! It wiped out my whole month's profits.
You will almost definitely go through a steep downswing and it doesn't sound like you have experienced that yet. Stay away from the 5-10 because a cold streak will destroy your bankroll. I suffered an $1800 losing streak at one point playing that limit.
natedogg
Hi, natedogg is on the money here. You sound like you've had a winning streak. Paradise has good players and it has bad players. I once took away $60 in one hour playing ,50/1 7-stud -all thanks to a glorious calling station being in the game. And then you can have a loosing streak that mekaes you question god's existance.
Best advice now - take a few days off from playing, otherwise I can nearly guarantee a tilt session at the hhigher limits.
These people know what they are talking about smoothb. There is nothing like a paradise swing. You go from winning steadily to can't win no matter what you have in a heartbeat and it can go on for weeks.Just keep your credit card handy when it happens and welcome to the wonderful world of internet poker addiction.
SmoothB wrote:
> Been playing PP for a couple of weeks.
> Today I won another hundred.
> Whoever said these games are tough, crooked, fixed, or whatever are way off track.
Whoever thinks he knows the truth about these questions after two weeks and couple of hundreds up, are at best very naive.
--John
It seems many supporters of PP are just like SmoothB. I already know 4 people who argued with me about PP because they have excellent wins, but a few month later, they swore they would never go back. We will see...
I believe the online 3-6 is much tougher than a casino 3-6. How often in a casino do you have the SB raise you trying to steal $3. Also, less people see the flop than in the casino, and the players are generally better. You can not pick up tells (conversely you do not give up tells). Just my opinion.
Derrick
3/6 is often the low limit table at a lot of casinos. Online 3/6 is 4 to 5 levels up.
Wait until Jonathan from support@pp turns the fix off. Gl.
DON'T GIVE UP YOUR DAY JOB.
Smooth, I used to play at Paradise, but now play at 4knights. The reasons why arnt important, we will just say I'm more comfortable at 4knightspoker. But, I do play online for money, and find that USUALLY anyone making such a huge win rate at low limits is playing way to many marginal hands. I have a friend at 4knights that won over $4000.00 in two weeks at 3/6 and lower....but, and he knows this, he was playing way too many hands. He was killing the games, the deck was hitting him, and he was pushing the edge for all it was worth. I know what my earn rate is, but, it has absolutly no meaning as of yet...after a 1000hrs, it will start telling me something. Buckcp
If there is one thing that is certain, I do NOT play too many hands.
In fact, I probably play tighter than what is theoretically correct, but the loose and juicy nature of these games means I can still win a ton playing only top quality hands.
I will admit that these games are very aggressive, and that I find myself playing more aggressively than I normally do VS loose passive calling station types. (These are the types of opponents I target in my game selection in live games.)
Play on the flop is very aggressive - and probably closer to what is theoretically correct. Some of these players are very bad, however.
In general I don't see what the problem is. These games are easy. All you have to do is play very tight and aggressive and, most importantly, correctly post flop and it should be easy for anyone to win consistently.
-SmoothB-
You're right it is easy to win consistently if you play tight and aggressive and correctly post flop. Also, I guarantee you that you are not playing tighter than is theoretically correct. I think very few people realize how tight you have to play online.
However, the swings can be huge despite your play. What people are trying to tell you is that you haven't hit a cold streak yet and when you do it will blow your mind. Unless you are loved by the poker gods, you WILL hit a cold streak. A huge one. The variance is very high online.
The other day, I lost $500 in 5 hours at 3-6. If you get AK ten times and miss every time and flop a couple straights that get cracked and go an hour at a time without dragging a pot, it's not that hard to lose 100 big bets online.
Of course, I've kind of gathered from your posting history that you've never really hit a cold streak before in live play either. But it can't hurt to be prepared.
natedogg
When you say "win consistently", you surly do not mean to say that you never expect to have a losing day, week, or month while playing on the Internet: do you?
I have been playing poker since the middle sixties and I have never known anyone to "win consistently" over an extended period. However, I have known a fellow who thought he knew how to win consistently because he made so much money over his first full-time year of playing. Alas, he went broke six months into his second year because he never really learned how to play at the 20/40 level in the first place. In addition, because he believed he was so good, he spent too much of his gambling reserve and could not survive the length and depth of the losing streak that followed his meteoric rise in the poker world.
As for me, It took me a fair amount of experience before I really got a feel for the ebb and flow of poker. I have had losing days, losing weeks, losing months and I even had a losing year... but over my career, I have made good money. As a source of cash flow, I believe it is easy for one to under-estimate the variability of poker. Only time will tell how good any specific player really is and the amount of time it takes is sometimes quite long.
Without regard to my considerable skepticism as to anyone’s ability to “win consistently”, I wish you the best of luck SmoothB.
William
To be perfectly honest, I pretty much entirely agree with you.
I've played over a 1000 hours of PP now, and i can't really see myself going back to live action anytime soon.
The additional number of hands you can play online, combined with the nature of online play making others prone tilting makes it an ideal atmosphere to play for both fun and profit.
You need to be careful when you increase the limits that you're playing too quickly. Find a game level you're comfortable with and stick to it, only occasionally jumping up a couple of game levels to play on a particularly profitable table.
gl
WesleyC
to state the obvious: no gas costs going to casino/card room...able to play shorter periods..hey its the way to go...
All I see are banners.
The board is starting to look like one of those NASCAR racing cars with all of those advertising stickers.
.
get real.... mason and the boys gotta make a buck somehow....
I would like to hear more feedback from Mason about online poker! The ads bother me, I dont read them.
They make plenty from book sales and poker. Who are you kidding? Rec.gambling is and will forever be free, so paying a fee here probably wouldn't go over well, since over 90% of the contributions are from those not employed by the 2+2 empire.
The amount of adds on my page now rivals that of only the porn passwordz sites.
That being said, I don't care about the adds. I have a DSL connection, so the page loads instantly anyway. I even clicked one of the banners once. It was for Abandoned Games. Cool site.
I feel sorry for those with 56k connections that are going to have to wait for all the adds to load, I hope they don't get fed up and stop posting here; unless it's the nutjobs and paranoia freaks like desire.
Besides, if I didn't want the banners to load on my screen I would use the proxy at
http://www.cotse.com/anonimizer.htm
it's pretty neat, it strips a page of all banners and adds, and provides you with an anonymous IP address. Don't get cute with the anonymous address thing, it does keep a log of you, and while they will keep you anaonymous if 95% of cases, if you are a nuisance to sites where you contribute to the page (i.e. forums) they will give you up to the webmaster (got that Chuck?). Also if make make bomb threats pertaining to Paradise Poker (Sklansky's garage) he could press charges.
But if you don't want you ISP to know you've been looking at those beastiality, lolita sites........
Hi all - a PP message today said they had some troubles with creditcards that have now been resolved.
Hi
I finished 30 something in omaha8 free roll today and i think it was a lot of fun. FINALLy able to semi bluff/bluff oponents out of pots. pot limit was truly a new experience for me. it was really good
anyways, some guy told me that raising pre flop was stupid I told him that he was stupid!!
if u got AA23 and two flush poss isnt possible to try to steal other players blinds.. they were up to 200 400 by the way
any thoughts??
I don't think its ever stupid to try and pick up chips in a tournamnet without having to contest the hand. Even big favorites lose and in tournaments it is the big picture that matters, not the small edges. In late stages of holdem tourneys, I am happy to take down just the blinds if no one calls my raise with AA, of course, I would also like the action and extra chips if I was called, but you have to protect your hand, and protect the chips you have. I haven't played any Omaha Tourn. but instinct tells me that this is even more true considering that suck outs are more frequent
is their live poker action in orlando, florida?????
No, if you want more specific details as to the status of live poker in Florida, let me know, I'll post em
PLEASE, GATOR , THANK YOU.
Since gambling is not legal in this state, there are three places I know of that you can play poker in FL: greyhound tracks, indian reservations and cruise ships.
The cruise ships are the oly "real" games (I'll get to that). They run twice almost daily (I know there's ports in Jax and St. Pete.)they usually cost $15 (u get match plays for table games though for the fee) They games are played as they would in a real cardroom. The problems are threre are usually only one or two games, the cruise only lasts four hours, and I hear there are quite a few local regualrs in the games makinkg them pretty tough. Anyway, they are able to run the casino when the boat is in international waters.
On land, the lawbooks state that poker is legal if the pot does not exceed $10. The greyhound tracks and Indian reservations have jmped on this providing .25/.50 and .5/1 games. Catch is, once the pot builds to $10 everyone left in the hand is treated as "all-in". This can happen pre-flop. If that wasn't bad enough, there is 25 cent ante every hand that the house rakes!!! It's sick. They also run tournaments. These work like this. If 100 people buy in for $20, then you play a two hundred hand tournament, (bascially they loophole an average of $10 a hand) and after the 200th hand, the players with the most chips win. It's a joke.
If you are still interested, there is a track in Daytona (40 mins or so from Orlando) that has games. I've played at this one a couple of times. There another big room in Pompano. Theres a reservation in Immokalee (this is where I've heard of the tournies).
Also rumor had it, that Gov Bush was going to legalize real poker after he was elected. Of course this has not happened yet, and probably won't. However I hear the room in Pompano is gorgeous, it rivals hotels in Vegas, and the reason they built it like this was because they were planning for real poker games.
Good Luck. PS, why were you interested, did you just move to Orlando or just planning to visit the mouse or something.
As an addendum to this good summary of poker in FL, there was a recent decision by the US Dept. of Interior concerning poker on Indian reseverations, specifically the Seminole reservations.
The Seminoles own casinos in Tampa and down south. They have the poker games that Gator just described, as well as Bingo and video machines that max out at $2/bet. The state has said that the Seminoles could not offer high limit Vegas-style gaming, so the Seminoles appealed to the Dept. of Interior to battle this policy.
A recent decision by the Federal government (I think released 3-4 months ago) has sided with the state on the matter of high stakes gambling with respect to blackjack, craps, roulette, etc, BUT not with respect to poker, which they said could be offered at higher limits. I've called the casino in Tampa, and the standard response to the obvious question is "I don't know." One lady I talked to told me that the only people who know are "the Indians, and they ain't tellin' us." That was funny.
Bill
thank you gator
Forget about poker at the dogtracks and Indian casinos---It's a gigantic ripoff for now. Head east out of Orlando on the Beeline(520) straight to Port Canaveral. Follow the signs to the Suncruz Casino. On the third deck they have a poker room with eight tables. They spread all the normal games and the limits range from 1-5 up to 10-20 with a kill. They have two cruises everyday. Holdem tournaments on Sunday night and omaha on Monday nights with freerolls at the end of the month. Call 1-800-474-dice for details. How's that for info? Good Luck!
thank you tpr
playing online is great way to meet people. i've met some people from daytona online; one them knows some of our people (he's a tournament rounder).
he told me that they play quite a bit, but not very high. 10-20 omaha-8 and straight high mostly. i asked if he knew if dewey t. and those guys are playing anywhere in orlando and he didn't know.
Gator do you know if playing poker online is legal in the US?
I don't think anybody knows. As far as I've heard, nobody has gone to court over it, so nobody can know if a prosecution would result in a conviction, or an acquittal. For those of us playing at home on our own dollar, I doubt it will ever be an issue. Prosecutors generally don't want to come after us on something this vague and uncertain, at least not until it has been made clear that it is illegal, and we've all had adequate warning.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
What games do people think are the easist-hardest to beat online (assuming you are a reasonably competent player)stud, hold 'em, or ?? Omaha and hi-lo? And, what limits, low, medium, or $10-20?
Any replies appreciated.
I would answer that it depends on the type of table you prefer playing at. At the 1/2 and lower tables, you need to have the winning hand to collect the pot. Those people wouldnt fold even if you showed them your hand before the river. However, good tight pre and postflop play will make you a winner in the long run. Be warned, they will chase any gutshot, runner runner flush they can. No bluffing, and you will lose to a lot of 7-4, 8-3, etc. If you do have the winner, you will collect a good size pot for your efforts. If you like a tight, aggressive table, try the 10-20 or the 20-40 tables. However, you need a MONSTER sized bankroll to survive there. Also, you are probably playing against some world class, or at the very least some players who make a living playing cards. However, if you hit your hand, you can will 500-1k/day easily. Be prepared for your BR to take a wild ride.
Also, from what I have observed (I dont play for real money online), the games go 2-3x faster than what you have at a live casino. If you play 2 tables at a time, you can easily see over 100 hands per hour. If you arent paying good attention, you will lose your bankroll.(Please dont post any whining remarks here)
One last thing, dont expect the 1/2 tables to behave like what you see at a live casino. Many people play at the middle levels because they dont prefer either the 10-20 or the .50/1 games but are non the less very good players.
As for what types of games are the best to play, if you are a consistent winner at your casino, you should win online. Be warned, your opponents are probably taking notes while the game is going on, so accurate record keeping of your opponents is important. So is table selection, if you dont feel comfortable, move to another table. Better to move than to lose and then regret not moving.
Sorry for the rambling.
Don
It's not important the limit you play but the type of the player you are fighting with. On-line, the knowledge of the opponents plays a FUNDAMENTAL RULE (more than in live games).
I ve seen very bad players at 10-20 and very good players at 2-4 and also at 0,5-1. If you play a straightforward solid poker you are not going to win the money. I have to adjust the game in dipendence of my opponents and not in dipendence of the limits.
YEs, the best players are in the higher limits but are EVEN in the lower limits (to have fun, for distraction, for bankroll problems, etc) and conversely at 10-20 you can find a bad player who has gone in tilt
A big mistake I did in the past is considering the table FULL OF PLAYERS OF ALMOST SAME STRENGHT. PLaying in 2-4 doesn't mean you are against 9 mediocre-fair players and playing 10-20 doesn't mean you are against 9 very good players. No doubt, the likelihood you meet good players goes up in dipendence of the limits but you can lose 2-3 key pots only because you put in the opponents the wrong hands.
PS: My english is bad and I'm spending in a english course the money won at poker but I'm thinking I need to win a WSOP tourney to finally say: I KNOW ENGLISH LANGUAGE :_)
A QUESTION FOR MID ATLANTIC PLAYER
I am curious to know some of the reasons you do not play online. Care to elabarate?
No elaboration necessary, I must not have been clear, I do play some online, the games are different than live though and so I'm relucant to play the limits I play live online yet ($10-20 and $5-10 nothing major), I'm dabbling more than anything else, up bit down a bit, the post by Marco Trevix made a lot of sense, there is a lot of variance in the quality of play on line and it does seem, from teh games I've played and/or watched that it isn't all that strongly correlated with the limits, at least in stud.
I've been astounded though by the chasers, people will chase with absolutely nothing and will also bet into obviously made hands when the odds are terrible of drawing out, the ohter night I had a runnner runner flush (with 6 dead cards out and another in my hole) in stud agasint a made 5th street, and pretty blatantly obvious st-8.
I was curious as to others thoughts, I don't think the games are dishonest as some do, but I think the types of players are a lot different than most cardrooms and so the hands unfold differently.
At around 12 20pm West coast time. PP, table fiji 20/40 HE.
PlayerA before the button raise. SB reraised, BB reraise.
PlayerA pause for 15 sec and fold, SB call.
Check to the river. Board is 6xy66.
SB fold (not check) after river. No one see what they have.
Someone who is watching say looks like team play. You draw your conclusion. Both players from NewYork.
Seems like it is overly obvious? If you don't care who wins the hand anyway why not bet the flop and turn and your colluding partner can fold on the turn and draw no suspicions.
Sincerly, Andreas
You mentioned you were destroying the PP online tourney's. I also know that you are a very good tournament player.
I have had marginal success in these tourneys in the past and I would like to know if you could provide from strategy advice as to how to best beat these tourney's.
The more detail you can provide the better. Thanks in advance.
I don't really play these any differently than I would if they took place in a real-world casino, except that I can't use visual tells to judge an opponent.
I do try to keep track of how they play hands, and other tendencies. I use this information to fine-tune my decisions regarding things like when to steal the blinds, when to value bet, when to bluff, when to give up, etc. It is preferable to be able to actually SEE an opponent, but this is still working out OK.
I guess I'm not destroying them as well as I was. My ROI has dropped from 125% down to 91%. However, the number of events I've entered is still nowhere near statistically significant.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Survival strategy is still important IMO. Have some chips for getting down to 4 and less players. Also don't worry about being outchipped a great deal when it's heads up. Play very aggressive right off the bat even if your outchipped a lot when it's heads up. Get a few blinds and it's almost even. My experience is that most players don't adjust fast enough to what you are doing.
Anybody know what the delay for cashout requests on Paradise poker is about? I tried cashout last night and it was refused, tried again today and again, refused.
What's the holdup? I need my cash to lose in Tunica.
Usually it happens immediately. You should contact Paradise support for this problem.
Same thing here. It says it's a "temporary problem that they're working on". Guess it takes 3+ days to fix a temp problem.
I have also tried to make several cash outs today, and was denied, for the same resons above.
Accoring to paradise:
Hello,Their customer service is good (they responded very quickly, and it was a saturday), but this cashout business sucks. They'd better get it sorted out fast or they'll be losing a lot of customers.Thank you for your email. We are experiencing a temporary problem with the Cash Out function. Unfortunately we are not yet certain of exactly when it will again be operational. We are working with our card processor as quickly as possible to get the Cashier fully functional. Accessibility of the cash out process is very much a priority for us and we certainly are doing all we can to get it back online. We have been told to expect cash outs back up this weekend. We do apologize for the inconvenience.
Sincerely,
Paul Paradise Poker Support
I cashed out 400 last week with no problem. Sounds like a typical software bug. I would not worry to much about it. Happens in real life all the time also.
It's just something you have to deal with when dealing with computers. i'm sure they don't really like it either.
Cashed out this morning without incident.
Hi, My question is should i take the plunge and play online or not? I've been playing at Poker Pages.. Doing well.. The impression that I get from everyone is that play in the LL live Internet games is extremely loose.. So much so that people are chasing anything, which seems to me much like what the LL practice games are like at Poker Pages.. If I am disciplined enough to do well at Poker Pages in the practice games.. Consistently increasing the size of my practice money account, would it be a fair assumption that I might do well in the LL games at a money site?
I think I do well enough with playing position correctly. I think I am pretty disciplined.. At least disciplined enough to wait for an hour to get a playable hand..
What bankroll/limit should I start with? I wanted to start out with about $300.. So is that a roll to start out in .50/1, or 1/2?
Thanks for any input.. Feel free to comment on anything else I might have missed..
Pogue
No
YOU POGUE!
Jump in, take a shot. Stick to the baby game for a while till you get comfortable.
Pogue,
Jump on in there. Play .50/1.00 until you build your bankroll up a bit. Play tight, play solid..don't tilt. You will rock and roll.
nt
I like to have a 125BB bankroll and go down in limits if I lose below the 125BB limit. Just the way I like to do it. So with a 300$ bankroll I would play 1-2 and switch down to 0.5-1 if I lost more then 50$. But on the other hand, you might like to play the lowest limit for a session or so to get the feel for the game.
Sincerly, Andreas
Hi, play at planet or paridise and play 5-10 hours a 1-2 level then move up EVERYONE chase at lower levels and you will bust out. AT lower levels only play drawing hands because there usueally will be 3-5 in every hand Have anice day ron
Do you guys think you can put any more ads on the page? That way you can just leave out the Q & A from all the posters. After all we wouldnt want to take up all the advertising space. I think we would all hate to see you guys get shafted out of a way to squeeze every lousy dollar out of the poker comunity.
What a joke.
was bored tonight, so decided, for the first time to play $20 tourneys (previously had only played omaha 8, and done very well. however, after cashing out for most of profit, my luck went totally dry)
anyway, one hand came j-j-k, two spades, turn was 3, river q spades. yup, someone had two kings in the hole for the nut full, and was beaten on the river by a royal flush. wow!!!
anyway, i saw some really strange card patterns tonight and hands i never see in live poker.
i don't know whats up with paradise, but it sure is weird.
I see a lot of pocket pairs in the small ($11) tournaments. The whole thing usually lasts only 60 hands if you're in it to the end and it seem like I always get at least 3 pocket pair above 8s and sometimes a lot more than 3.
Might be worth a look for the statistically minded.
In the brief time I played at Paradise Poker, I was astonished by the frequency of bad beats and distribution of starting cards I was getting. I've never experienced anything like it in a casino which makes me very suspicious of PP. Anyhow, no more PP for me.
Wait a minute! You say you've done very well playing O/8 and now you have ONE bad streak in a tourney and you suspect something! Come on. You've never seen anyone hit a one-outer in a live game before?
I'm not saying there's no chance of something glitchy or fishy with the software, but your experience does little to support that theory.
natedogg
i didn't say i was being cheated, just that the hands dealt were really weird. one night, playing 10-20 omaha 8, i turned $220 into $1540 in less than 90 minutes. to win 50 bbs in this omaha hilo is unheard of. i've never been dealt such a streak of cards in my life. then i cash out for a $1200, and get dealt more bad beats than i can recall in such a short time span.
i'm ok with the software, i'm up and i've enjoyed playing. its just that the hand distribution seems weird.
as for one or two outers, that happens. however, i've seen more strange hands in a few hours than in a year in my regular game.
I just flipped a nickle heads 8 times in a row. I suspect that all nickles in the US are sckewed. You just cant trust the government!!! Cmon thats over 250-1, I am not that lucky. Anyway be very careful of people wanting to flip you heads or tails, i dont truts that coin.
Playing at Paradise Poker a little while ago,I was dealt pocket kings 3 times in one session and won with them only once.A little unusual but not nearly enough to suspect any chicanery.
I've been dealt K-K three times in four hands. I won all three times.
I also got dealt Q-Q four times in one session, and didn't win once.
And I agree with the posters about the large distribution of pocket pairs in tournaments.
But personally, my view is that some of the people who play online are so bad, I'll take my chances with the Paradise software, glitchy or not.
Regards,
Richard
I was dealt pocket Queens the other night. I proceded to flop trips the turn and betting made a very scary flush board. The river: the case Queen for the quads and the a win of almsot 35 big bets. I know I wasn't "in" on anything. Playing so many more hands, weird things are bound to happen. Also, if you look for a problem, you'll probably find it.
Fitz
Dear Pokerspot Players,
As many of you are aware, several weeks ago we began experiencing problems with our then current credit card processor, Net Pro, Ltd. We promptly stopped processing through Net Pro and have since been unable to take new player deposits or process cashouts. We are pleased to announce that we recently signed an agreement with Surefire Commerce, the most trusted name in the online gaming processing community, to process all future player deposits. All cashouts requested after March 15* will now be processed as normal.
In addition, we also are pleased to announce we are at a point where we can start repaying prior cashouts. All cashouts that have been requested prior to the 15th of March will be paid according to the following schedule:
20% by April 15; 20% by May 15; 20% by June 15; 20% by July 15; and 40% by August 15.
Please note that we will be paying all players who cashed out in January or February an additional 20% of their cashout as interest. We are pursuing several different avenues that might allow us the opportunity to pay all players before the above dates, including a lawsuit against Net Pro, Ltd., some short-term loans using the software as collateral, and a pending licensing deal.
Once again, we apologize sincerely for the inconvenience this situation has caused our players. We recognize that there has been quite a bit of damage to our reputation as a result of Net Pro, Ltd. and Barclays Bank freezing the player funds, and we can only hope that our reputation will be repaired once we are able to pay all of our players.
On a side note, our service provider has upgraded our bandwidth to an optical fiber connection. You should notice decreased latency, and increased playability. When new developments arise, we will keep you updated. In the meantime, we hope to see you on the site.
Sincerely,
The Pokerspot Team
* - Please note that this does not include cashouts made prior to March 15 that have been re-applied to a player's account.
Well it looks like we'll get paid. We all wish that this did not happen but sometimes things happen that we have no control over. I believe this is what happen to PokerSpot.
Yes, I plan to continue to play there. I happen to like the players that play there. They just seem like real people and it's been a real pleasure playing with them.
As to the players who were very upset about not getting paid right away and wanted people thrown in some jail. I think you have to see that honest people can't always do what should be done,but, do everything they can.
I think internet poker is here to stay. It will have problems that will be solved and some that will not.It is not the poker that you have grow used to,but it is here to stay.
MS Sunshine
Nice Post. Way to go.
Well this is all good to hear but I will still need proof before I believe it. I was specifically promised that I would have amounts credited against my credit card about a month ago and it never happened. We have all heard promises from Pokerspot in the past, none of which have materialized. So while this sounds promising, let's not get too excited until we see some proof.
I agree, you players are all adults and can do what you want to. Just remember, It still will take 5 months (till Aug) to receive YOUR money back. Until April 15 ( when he promised the first payment will be done) I would still assume that things havent changed and this is just another delay tactic that Mr. Boyd has been using since the first problems arose 3 months ago. Just wondering, If your bank told you that you couldnt withdrawal your money for over 150 days, would you still bank there???? Well, we know that Ms Sunshine and Wildcard would. Would the rest of you guys still bank there?
do they intend to add 20%to all accounts that are not cashed in ???
Clint,
You are completely justified in requiring proof before giving us the benefit of the doubt. The schedule we posted was a schedule that we felt sure that we could make good on. If we are able to get a settlement from Net Pro or a asset-based loan sooner than August, the schedule will reflect that.
I can only hope that once all of our player debts are made good, we will gain back our lost credibility.
Sincerely, Russ Boyd
Russ
You have never had credibility from day one. You guys used to send out emails you couldn,t process a payout cause the cfo or ceo was out of town. You folks have been second rate since your inception. Unfortunatley for the poker world online...you managed to get the only decent tournament software. Well if you think people are going to come back after all the lies and deceptions, you are not much of a businessman. You have no chance to succeed...people are going to be so happy to get there money back and play elsewhere. And only recently have you begun replying to posts in recgambling and here at 2+2 for months you said nothing. Sell your software..cut your losses. You are nothing but an internet scam person. Your article in poker digest I believe represented that also. Did you give Neal Ross a retainer . He needs the work with all the back ground and corospondance you have with him..lmao...go ridance pokerspot
PA
Now that players are able to buy-in again when will you be posting a new tournament schedule and holding buy-in tounrnaments?
I just found out that my bank is based in New Hampshire, where gambling is illegal. Therefore, my credit card, issued through that bank, is blocked from all gaming sites, and all sites affiliated with those sites..
What a crock.. I thought at first that I didn't have enough balance to charge.. Went to the branch office and put another 500 on it.. No good.. Finally called the credit card customer support # and found out the bad news... Grrrr... Guess my intro to online poker play will be delayed..
Pogue
Pogue, there are some online gambling sites that have gotten around this, by useing neteller.com. What you do, is make a deposit in this site, and they then deposit the money into the online site you wish to use.The site you have the money placed at, absorbs the costs of this transaction. Best of luck. Buckcp
Tried netellet.....didn't work...
Pogue
There are a million cards you can apply for online that are not based in NH.
You Pogue...
Do the debit card thing, it makes more sense anyway. Dont want "gambling" stuff on your credit history anyway. If you live in NH or Mass there are small banks around that have no fee/low fee checking with the card.
There has been a lot of realy good messages lately (natedogg and others)– about how to beat the low-limit-paradise-hold’em-games – Thanks !
But I would like to see somme hands – I’m a big sucker for the hand-history-feature on paradise – a lots of hands – please send some !
Here is one – what do you think ?
Game #1 - $1/$2 Hold'em – QQ under the gun – 8-handed - Seat 7 is the button
Seat 1: Arnold ($85 in chips)
Seat 3: Charlie ($67.25 in chips)
Seat 4: DeeDee ($53.75 in chips)
Seat 5: Eric ($16.75 in chips)
Seat 7: George ($12.25 in chips)
Seat 8: Hillbilly ($188.25 in chips)
Seat 9: Ike ($104.50 in chips)
Seat 10: Pokerplayer ($59.75 in chips)
Hillbilly : Post Small Blind ($0.50)
Ike: Post Big Blind ($1)
Dealt to Pokerplayer [ Qd Qh ]
Pokerplayer: Raise ($2)
Arnold : Fold Charlie: Fold DeeDee : Fold
Eric: Call ($2) George : Call ($2)
Hillbilly : Fold
Ike: Call ($1)
*** FLOP *** : [ 3s Th 5s ]
Ike: Check
Pokerplayer: Bet ($1)
Eric: Raise ($2)
George : Fold
Ike: Call ($2)
Pokerplayer: Raise ($2)
Eric: Call ($1)
Ike: Call ($1)
*** TURN *** : [ 3s Th 5s ] [ 4s ]
Ike: Bet ($2)
Pokerplayer: Call ($2)
Eric: Raise ($4)
Ike: Call ($2)
Pokerplayer: Fold
*** RIVER *** : [ 3s Th 5s 4s ] [ 7h ]
Ike: Check
Eric: Bet ($2)
Ike: Call ($2)
*** SUMMARY *** Pot: $30.50 | Rake: $1
How do you like my play ? – Any commnts appreciated ! Results later ...
.
nn/t
I see now, you are pokerplayer.
I think you played it fine. Ike has probably a flush, and it's a bit harder to put Eric on something...maybe a set T or also a flush (maybe even a straight flush, but then is his preflop call weak). Since you didnt give any information about the players i could be wrong, i assume they're just decent players. When this hand reading is correct you would be drawing a two outer, or maybe drawing dead (against straight flush) so a fold on the turn is correct IMO.
Regards, ME
I think the turn is where this hand gets tricky. When Ike bets into you, your call is weak; He is representing the straight or flush, you have no outs to that your hand can't improve to beat him, so you will be calling the river too, (would be slightly better if you had Qs) You have to raise (if you think he is bs) or fold here (if you believe him). But that all depends on what that player is capable of. A smart player would know you are betting the river, and go for the checkraise, so why does he bet here? If he is a total fish, he gets scared that no one will bet, because the flush bame and he is holding the nuts, and bets, hoping to be raised. An aggressive tricky fish might have a pair of sixes and is hoping to bluff people out with his pair and straight draw (if he has the 6s he may even think he is betting for value). He may have two pair or a set and gets scared someone will get a free card for a flush. The there is the guy after you, what is he on? He might re-raise, he might call, he might fold. If you call, and he calls, Your Queens probably aren't good.
So what does all this mean? I think if the guy is a weak loose player, I fold on the turn. If the guy is a little aggressive, I would flat call, then fold to that raise behind me (like you did). The best you could have done on this hand was save that $2 if you had a great read on Ike,
SIDE NOTE: A lot of players claim that tells are not all that important in limit, and they are unreliable. bBut in this situation, you can almost always get some indication from the guy behind you as to his intentions are.
In real life you might have been able to see Eric getting ready for the raise, that is why online games are harder, no indication of what eric is up too. He could be siting there with his fold box checked or his raise any, and you can get no tell.
I think you might have seen that raise coming at least 80% of the time. If you think about it that is a lot of money. It can turn a slightly losing or break even player into a winner. However online, this person is destined to lose (and will probably blame it on the site).
*** TURN *** : [ 3s Th 5s ] [ 4s ]
Ike: Bet($2) Pokerplayer: Call($2) Eric: Raise($4) Ike: Call($2) Pokerplayer: Fold
*** RIVER *** : [ 3s Th 5s 4s ] [ 7h ]
Ike: Check Eric: Bet($2) Ike: Call($2)
Pot: $30.50 | Rake: $1
Eric bet $11, collected $30.50, net +$19.50 (showed hand) [ 8s Qs ] (a flush, queen high)
George lost $2 (folded)
Hillbilly lost $0.50 (folded)
Ike lost $11 [ 2c Ad ] (a straight, ace to five)
Pokerplayer lost $7 (folded) [ Qd Qh ] (a pair of queens)
-----------------------------------------------------
The key-point is of course the call on the turn – as I get it - it wasn’t that bad – thank you both !
One part of my 'assualt' on online poker that I'm none to pleased with is game selection. I play low-limit (sometimes mid-limit) and will typically play two tables (or one and posting messages here ;-)), basing my game on tight-aggressive poker more than getting reads on every player and such. Of course I do smell 'free money' when it's obviously out there and I spot a few quality opponents too.
However, in selecting a game I will look for the highest percentage of players seeing the flop around the limits I like to play $2-4/$3-6/$5-10, keeping an eye on the pot size as well (of course small pots suggesting passive games). Here is where it stops. I won't look for particular names, as there are so many new 'faces' and old players out there. Very few of these are juicy enough to search land and sea for, in my opinion. I may be wrong though.
So I'll play until the games gets real tight (I've once been at a $3-6 game getting packed with quality players and dropping down to 10% players/flop) or shorthanded, then do the same 'game selection' and find a new game.
That's game selection for me. I bet none of you were much impressed. :-)
Any good advice out there?
lars
IS the highlands site down? i have been having trouble getting login approval from the server. When i try to login i get frozen at that particular screen. Is this a unique incident or is this typical of how this e-site is run?
I logged onto Highlands a little while ago.Give it another try.
You have a version of their software that needs to be updated. This may be true, even if you loaded it today. Send an e-mail to Annmarie at suport and she will give you the web address for their current update (very small file). I know this because it happened to me two days ago.
William
many thanks
I love online Seven-Card Stud. :-)
lars
HI
u care to venture why??
what do you prefer hi low or regular??
do you thik its possible to win more there than in holdem??
where do ya play it?? planet? paradise?
I prefer playing 7 card stud vs playing holdem. (Both for play money and at casino) Because when you play holdem you are playing the man more than you are playing the board. When you are playing 7 cs you are playing the board more than you are playing against the man. I also prefer the added information that more cards shown give you for calculating drawing odds, etc. Also, when I first started playing cards, I had a better win rate playing 7cs vs HE so I just stuck with it. The 2 games are very different, so I would rather just improve my 7cs skills vs learning a different game. At the casino, I can beat most of the low limit players there because I dont have to know how they play to beat them. Playing low limit holdem (watching friends at casino) you have to know your opponents playing style, habits, etc to beat them.
That's JMHO. Don
I have started to play more seven card online also, it seems like the swings are not as dramatic and you don't get sucked out as often as in Hold'em, and at least for me anyway I don't go on e-tilt as often. It is probably all personal preferance, but I've been playing more stud and shying away from hold-em, which is the game most often disscussed in this forum. My better hands seem to hold up better in stud, where you don't see so many great hands get cracked by some lame holding shit and getting the miracle board, which at times seems like the rule rather than the exception at Paradise.
when if ever can we expect to see no limit internett poker??
totally destroy any nl g and i guess all the programmers understand that and might as well just program heads up: angelo vs ndog...
JE Irving wrote: > when if ever can we expect to see no limit internett poker??
UltimateBet.com say they will have no limit and pot limit cash games. They are presently testing their software and only open for play money, but last mail i got from customer service indicated that real money games will come late April.
I have serious doubts though that they will manage to keep colluders from destroying the no/pot limit games.The effect of collusion in those kinds of games is far greater than in a limit game.
Maybe they have a countermeasure, I don't know. Would be great if they had...
-- John
The collusion issue is the big hurdle for real$. What better place to be most affective in colluding.
What I dont undersand is the lack of play$ no limit and pot limit, it would quickly eliminate the nonsense and give people a place to practice. Also, no limit tournies have proven themselves viable online. IRC was a great place for this reason, but after the server crash and BR reset it lost the loyal following...too bad, if it was good enough for our WSOP2000 champ to practice on, it was good enough for us all.
I'd also like to see paradise add play$ tournies ...buyin play$, payout play$. Someday when they manage to add multitable tournies they can implement freerolls as well.
Freerolls work well as marketing tools to get players in, too bad Planet doesnt have a clue...play$ people get to win a TSHIRT...woopy....wakeup Caro etal.
As far as Ultimatebet....I have yet to ever recieve my username password Email back from them, best of luck.
CrazyJim are u 4 real?
"What I dont undersand is the lack of play$ no limit and pot limit, it would quickly eliminate the nonsense and give people a place to practice. "
Planet and Paradise are in the business of giving people a free place to practice? BTW have u seen the banners on this site lately?
Your next statement has to be one of the more absurd things I've read here:
"Freerolls work well as marketing tools to get players in, too bad Planet doesnt have a clue...play$ people get to win a TSHIRT...woopy....wakeup Caro etal."
What do playmoney players give back to the site? As far as I'm concerned all they do is hog up bandwith and slow down the money games. Sure, they may decide to play for real after some experience with the interface (I did it this way) so it's worth the tradeoff. A T-shirt sent out to you is quite generous prize for a leech. Once you do play for some real money even if it's only quarter games, you will get freerolls like last Friday for $500. I congratulate "Caro etal." for offering this free service to it's paying customers.
That takes some serious gall to bitch about a free prize. Quit looking for a free ride a pay to play.
Are U nutz?
Dude, what play$ players do is BECOME REAL$ players, after they are comfortable. That goes TRIPLE if the site hosts Freerolls with real$ prizes to get the players into real$ games.
You would not make it as a tobacco, beer, or crack marketing exec.
If there is NO benefit to having play$ games, then why does paradise and planet have them? Lets see, they are genious' except on this, they are stupid?
I would think you would be in favor of actions that brought more players into the game.
On the play$ front, for practice, yes lots of people I know play BOTH real and play$, especailly when trying to learn new games, like moving to Omaha, or 7cshilo, etc. Or trying out new strategies without blowing a bunch of money doing it. _I_ would like to see no limit or pot limit play$ out here because the riff raff would die off quickly leaving the quality players to practice with...unlike some of the play$ silly games you run into on paradise.
But you are a genious, and know way more than everyone else, thanks for the input.
Just tell me if you read everything in my post especially this line:
"Sure, they may decide to play for real after some experience with the interface (I did it this way) so it's worth the tradeoff"
I do not feel that the games are wotrthless, but in no way do I think they should pay real money for play. If your objective is learn the game, then you don't need money prize, you get experience and a T-shirt. They will get the same amount of people into money games from the play games $$$$ payout or not.
Do you suggest I should pitch the idea to the local lottery that they should give out a couple free tickets to everyone once a month or so, to get them to BUY more tickets?
Gator,
you miss a couple minors points:
Many people still have apprehensions about putting $ on online services, so some of these play$ players need a small PUSH over the edge. So freeroll real$ for no feeis a strong tool.
Also, ALL the lotteries already DO HAVE free giveaway promotions all the time, its part of an integrated marketing plan.
You can't be serious. "I_ would like to see no limit or pot limit play$ out here because the riff raff would die off quickly leaving the quality players to practice with..."
They just click a button and get more chips, it's play money, for free, you can't bust these players out, they have an infinite amount of chips.
Once again, your comment: "Lets see, they are genious' except on this, they are stupid?"
And they are genius except when it comes to paying out real cash for play tournaments????????
I wholeheartedly agree, that the play games are ridiculous whne it comes to "playing poker". My only goal playing online is to gain experience and learn. I play the low limits games where the money you can earn is like $1 an hour; I play online because I have no where else to hone my skills. I was excited about the pokerpages no-limit freroll. I thought it would be a serious, quality event. But what I've found out, is it's a joke, and that goes for almost every poker game online that is free.
Here is the answer:
Average pot size: This statistic is the rolling average of the final pot size over the last 20 hands. It can assist you by giving you an idea of how big the pots have been on average. Large average pots may indicate a looser more aggressive table.
Average players per flop: This number is calculated by dividing the total number of players that stay in to see the flop by the total number of players playing at the table. It is a rolling average over the last 20 hands and is displayed as a percentage. This valuable statistic allows you to get an idea of the looseness or tightness of a particular table before sitting down and playing. This statistic applies to Hold'em and Omaha. With 7 Card Stud, you can see the percentage of players seeing the 4th street card.
Here's a simple question. I'll go first. They owe me US$ 709. Add your amount to the amount in the last post and the bottom post should have the running total. Then we'll adjust for the rough percentage of people that could reasonably be expected to post here (10%?) to get an idea. I expect it will come close to 7 figures and that would tell me I'm stuck but good.
Why are you so anxious to prove to yourself you won't be paid? I am also owed money, and am glad PokerSpot claims they will be able to pay me. But what can I do by worrying? Either they will pay me or they won't. No ammount of adding and worrying will change this.
I for one still believe, as I said long ago, that it is in PokerSpot's own best interest to pay it's players. They will pay as soon as they can. Every second they delay is another negative post on the boards.
Of course, this doesn't mean I'm happy about having to wait, either. But, all things considered, I'm very glad for the announcement.
Too bad Pokerspot's website doesn't show this change. They still list NetProltd as their CC processor and Firecash. Until they change the info at their website, I wouldn't believe a word they say.
This is mostly my point. They're simply full of it. I'd like to get an idea of the total they've stolen. Maybe I'll open my own site for a quick 7 figure score.
$1400 n some change. Some of it is still in my account on their site though. I have heard other players with amounts owed much much larger than this. I hope they come thru..I was counting on that money for a trip to Vegas. Since I started with a teeny tiny tiny buy in and was very fourtunate in a 2nd place tourney win right off the bat, I guess the only thing I really have invested is my time playing those tourneys. Still would be a bummer if they don't pay though.
The people on the plane will miss me singin along to my viva las vegas .mp3 on my laptop. One time the stewardess even played it over the loudspeakers on the plane by holding the mike next to the laptop. It rocked...whole plane was singin!
Is this the same speech you'll being telling us from a year from now? I'm really getting tired of all this used-car salesman pitch-n- diatribe from hopeless dreamers.
i read somewhere that stu ungar was considered the best gin rummy player ever..
have anyone played gin 4money.com??
is this a skill game??
Your right about Stuey being the best. I'm not a Gin player so I can't comment on whether gin is a skill game. But I know that Stuey was so good that he couldn't get a game anywhere. Thus he moved to poker.
Gin is definitely a game of skill.
Any chance of strategy tips for gin?
I just started playing for bottles of wine with a friend I work with who loves the game...just about held my own so far, but don't really have much of an idea.
So far I try and keep track of what the opp. picks up and discards, along with cards gone. Then I try and discard those unwanted by opp. - give him less opportunity to make use of my discards.
What else should I be looking for/doing...?
G
I hope it it cheap Wine!!!
Thanks for the input. Very helpful, Paayer.
You may have found more appropriate responses in the "Other Gambling Games" section of the forum.
Having assumed the mantle of Wrong Forum Man for a moment, the acknowledged Best Gin Player of All Time was Oswald Jacoby. In addition to being a world champion in bridge, and inventing a popular bridge convention that bears his name, Jacoby worked for the US Government in WWII cracking Japanese code. I have no doubt that Stu Ungar would have possessed many of the same qualities of intellect and fearlessness that made Ozzie a terror at the gin tables.
I received this response to my email from Paradise Poker regarding their inability to perform cashouts since Thursday:
-----------
Hello,
Thank you for your email. We are experiencing a temporary problem with the Cash Out function. Unfortunately we are not yet certain of exactly when it will again be operational. We are working with our card processor as quickly as possible to get the Cashier fully functional. Accessibility of the cash out process is very much a priority for us and we certainly are doing all we can to get it back online. We have been told to expect cash outs back by Monday.
We do apologize for the inconvenience.
Sincerely,
Craig Paradise Poker Support
----------
Monday is tomorrow, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed...
Sandra J.
Going to Prescot, Arizona...Any Poker rooms..Where????
Buckys in Prescot
At least for me :)
Here is a hand I may haved played a little too frisky ?
Game #2 - $1/$2 Hold'em – AKo - Ice-T is the button
Dealt to pokerplayer [ Kc As ] (that’s me)
Bull:Call($1) Charlie:Fold Denis:Fold
Eric C:Call($1)
pokerplayer:Raise($2)
Gilles:Fold hillbilly:Fold Ice-T:Fold * Jimi:Fold Amy:Fold
Bull:Call($1) Eric C:Call($1)
*** FLOP *** : [ Qd Ts 7d ]
Bull:Check Eric C:Check
pokerplayer:Bet($1) * Bull :Call($1) Eric C: Fold
*** TURN *** : [ Qd Ts 7d ] [ 6c ]
Bull:Check pokerplayer:Check *
*** RIVER *** : [ Qd Ts 7d 6c ] [ 9c ]
Bull:Bet($2) pokerplayer:Call($2) *
-----------------------------------------------------
These situations are always tricky - Bull could easily be drawing with this flop. If your going to commit a big bet, I think that you are better to bet the turn and fold if re-raised. If called, check the river.
I feel that you are probably beaten as there are many limping hands that would connect with this flop, your only hope is AJ.
I would make the move on the turn not on the river. If you bet the turn and he calls, you may or may not be beat. It would be a judjment call as to whether to bet the river. If things were running good, and I had a strong table image, I'd bet it out. If not, I'd bet the turn and check the river.
You have a good position, so you I like your flop bet; you could take the pot right there and you might get a free turn if you want. When the turn probably dont have helped both of you, you have the choice to continue with your strong play, or taking a free turn, and thereby revealing your hand pretty much. When taking a free turn you can be farely sure in this limit that there will be bet into you on the river. Since it's heads up, I would have bet the turn since your opponent showed no strength, and check the river when called. When you decide to take a free turn i think you should check fold the river when you dont hit. The play of betting or checking the turn very much depends on your opponent IMO.
Regards ME
You all 3 seem to agree that I should have bet the turn and check/folded the river – so be it – it’s a play I like pretty much my self – Thanks !
*** RIVER *** : [ Qd Ts 7d 6c ] [ 9c ]
Bull : Bet($2) pokerplayer: Call($2) *
Pot: $13 | Rake: $0.50
Amy lost $1 (folded)
Bull bet $5, collected $13, net +$8 (showed hand) [ 8h Qc ] (a straight, six to ten)
Eric C lost $2 (folded)
pokerplayer lost $5 [ Kc As ] (high card ace)
Jimi lost $0.50 (folded)
I just wonder if any one think they are serious
They cant even update the tournamnet schulde.
I trying to add to the noon Omaha8/NL holdem
but I cant do that so....if they was serious they should send mee some mails ore write something about it on the site but
NOTHING
Comments
Since the inception of PS problems they made a statement that their tournamnet schedule would remain the same as it was in January until further notice. I just signed upfor todays tournament a 0135 cst and had no problem. Have you highlighted the "tournaments and play money" option. If not try that. Maybe too late now, it's 0140 cst...gl
I have been a regular poster to 2+2 for over 2 years, and I am sure my name is familiar to some of you. To the others who limit their 2+2 time to just the Internet Poker forum, I confine my play pretty much to 3-6 to 6-12 play, with the occasional foray up to 10-20. Until this weekend, I had never played online. I have always had this paranoid vision of the 9 other people in the game sitting around a big table somewhere with their laptops just waiting for me to get in the game.
Well, for some reason, I just decided to have a closer look at the online world. I live and play poker in Edmonton, AB. and while we have 3 casinos that spread poker, the total number of games going in the city at any one time is never usually more than 5 or 6 in LL's and even less at mid-limits. So, what the hell, why not at least have a boo, and see what seems to be the attraction?
I go into Paradise for no other reason than there is a link from this site. Might as well support those that support 2+2, I figure. Download the software, choose a handle, all that stuff. I played about one hour each of Play Money 3-6 HE and O/8 to get a feel for the pace of play, how to work the mouse in the game, what the competition might be like, etc.
I realized that it was funny money, but I tried to play as if it were real. Had some swings that were about what I would normally expect in a live game, and was up about $100 after the two hours, so I figured it was time to go big or go home.
I buy in for $200 on my VISA, and away I go. Couldn't get a seat in a 3-6 game, so I sit down in 2-4 HE. Now the games in which I play here can be categorized in general as loose/passive, with generally not much preflop raising, and timid play from most of the opposition who are very loath to make thin value bets, use checkraising effectively, don't bluff much,etc. It is pretty much a berry patch, and my earn rate in these live games has been pretty good for the past four years.
Well after about 15 hours of play in 3-6 and 2-4 HE (haven't got into an O/8 game yet), I have these observations about playing online.
1. I love the pace of play. 60-70 hands per hour, no misdeals, no smoke, etc. IN my first session, I was playing in the evening at my desk with no distractions and I found myself getting completely absorbed in the game, but I also found that because I had to concentrate so fully, that I got tired more quickly than in a casino atmosphere. In future, I will make sure I limit my online sessions to 2-3 hours tops.
2. I found the 3-6 games to be much tighter with generally much better players than my live games. In my live games, blind stealing is almost frowned upon by a lot of the players, but online if you don't compete hard for the blinds, you just can't compete, period. Sure, I saw some ridiculous garbage hands and runner-runner crap taking down some pots, but for the most part, the players were much more aggressive. Certainly nobody softplayed anyone, which is a big problem with the poker community being fairly small here.
I have often made the comment on 2+2 that I see the opposition leave so much money lying around not betting their hands properly. Not in the games in which I played over the weekend. I never saw so many thin value bets in my life, but a lot of them turned out to be sound, and earned the player an extra BB. I had to adjust my game to this both on offence and on defence.
3. "Weird" hands. Others have commented here that they see a lot of funny hands online as opposed to live games. I saw a few suckouts at the river (How did you get there?) but in general no more so than live play. I have no hard data to back the following up, and maybe my playing sample is still too small, but it seemed to me that the general distribution of good and bad starting hands that I had was a little more even than in live play. What I mean is that in live play, I can go long, long stretches without seeing a decent starting hand, but online the decent starters came along in fairly even patterns. Is this some function of the Random Number distribution programming, or does it just seem that way because you play so many hands so quickly?
I am quite sure that I will have more comments about online play as I gain more experience in this venue, but for now, I would have to say that I am willing to give it a more extensive play. I travel a lot on business, especially in the summer, and now I will have poker access anywhere. I have seen several 'regulars' pop up in the games, and hopefully, I should be able to get a handle on their play fairly quickly. And they to me, too, I suppose.
One thing I need to ask about, though, is this "All-in" business. I guess I should have read through the fine print in more detail while signing up, but I was a little too anxious, I guess. On one hand, no one had bet the flop, and on the turn, I picked up an open-ender and a flush draw, and I semi-bluffed against 2 opponents. One player with money on the table ended up being put "All-in" because he didn't respond in time, or had problems with his server or something. The other player folded, and there I was stuck at the end having to show down my King high bust to an Ace-high hand that I'm sure would have folded the turn had he responded in time. Cost me a small pot, but does this happen a lot?
Also, I was in a hand and ready to call a bet when a Waiting List message popped up for me, and I ended up being put all-in. Cost me more money because I had the best hand and couldn't get any more $$ in the pot. Cooincidence as to the timing of this, or has this happened to others? And, I went back to play last night for a couple of hours after supper, and I was warned that I was out of "All-in's", and that I should wait 24 hours before playing again. What's that all about?
Overall, I can see what others mean in that the online games are generally tighter, and while beatable, your earn rate may be lower than in live games. While I do not expect to abandon live games by any means, I found my first online venture reasonably profitable and enjoyable as well.
Feel free to comment.
All-ins- You can get them reset. If you are disconnected, it is normally a formality, but if you go all-in while connected you are best to e-mail support and explain what happened, I have only had to do this once and they would probably take exception, if it was a regular occurence.
I was interested in your comments about blind stealing - when I was on vacation in Vegas a couple of months ago I was amazed at the amount of chopping. I think the fact that you can't chop online makes a big difference to variance. I went 6 hours once without winning a hand from the blinds.
Dunc,
I have seen you comments in other forums here, and I appeciate you posts.
I have also just started playing at Paradise, and I think your observations are accurate. I have been playing at the .50/1.00 and $1/2 games so far, so I have probably seen more bad play than at the $3/6 level. I have about 35 hours under my belt so far, and my win rate has been almost 3BB per hour. I took my first real beating over the weekend, but I think that was more related to my mood and frame of mind than to the game itself. It was one of those instances where I knew playing was a mistake, and I was was right.
I have also wondered about this "all-in" scenario you ran into. If there is an all in because they lose contact, it appears to me, we are stopped from semi-bluffing. Since this can often be an effective tactic, that is too bad. There are times when conncetions go down, so I don't know that there is any other way to handle this to be fair to everyone. If anyone has any ideas, I'd like to hear them.
You should try the single table tournaments on the site. They are fun, and I've had decent success so far. I've played in 5 with 2 seconds and 1 thrid place finish so far.
Good luck in cyberspace,
Fitz
Dunc,
The "all-in"thing can be very aggravating, always seems to happen when you have the best hand.Try this,go to lobby,click on options,click on optimise graphics. I have been playing live poker for yrs,now trying OL in the last month.Mixed success so far,you may have to adjust your game somewhat, but stay with what has worked in live games. Enjoy your posts, keep them coming. Bill
I reckon there's definitely some cheating with all-ins. I've seen so many hands like 88 get 'disconnected' with a T962 board and similar that I refuse to think it's a co-incidence. Funny how nut sets never seem to get disconnected.
It doesn't happen too often (though increasingly more as you move up the limits I've gathered), but it's very annoying when it does. Cowardly.
lars
I have been playing quite a while now online in the 2/4 and 3/6 games, and quite profitable also :)
For the all-ins: it sometimes happens and some people might be abusing it, but i find it not a big deal. It doesnt happen very often, and people have only 1 all-in (which can be reset BTW).
For your all-in with the waiting list: it can be quite nasty, but when you play longer you get used to it. Heck, i even had one hand where i had the winning hand on a 80 dollar pot and wanted to raise the river. However on my other table i was just going to fold, then my 80 dollar table popped up and i folded the winning hand....OUCH!
BTW I dont think the games on Paradise are hard to beat (3/6 and lower); when you have the good online stategy I know you're gonna make money, I would comment however that you have a very very small bankroll for playing 2/4 and 3/6. The swings are larger then live play, so with the bakroll you have now it's very much possible to go broke, even when you play a good game. I once lost 250 dollar in one day playing 2/4 and won the next day 350!! (This was my biggest swing however)
Regards, ME
This is not my complete 'bankroll' for 3-6, by any means. But this was the first time I had played online, and I did not want to take out, for example, $1000 on my VISA just to sit in the game. If I have, say, a $3000 "poker account" in the bank, I don't withdraw the whole enchilada and sit down with $3000 in chips for 3-6 live play. If I 'go broke' with the $200, I will then have to decide if I want to reinvest. If I continue to build it up, I will probably leave it alone until it gets to the point that I want to declare a dividend. I look at the $200 buy-in as R&D money for now.
You're playing two games online at once? What, isn't 70 hands an hour enough action for you? Too bad about folding an $80 winner, but there are those who would say you got about what you deserved for not paying attention! LOL.
Sorry that i misunderstood you on the bankroll thing.
I dont play very often two tables; i mostly play two tables to be "mobile" since the games can change pretty quickly from a good to a bad one.
And yes....I AM paying more attention now, so it was worth the $80 :))
Regards ME
Dunc,
From what I gather after reading your posts and from having spoken with Jay, you can clearly beat the game at the 10-20/15-30/20-40 levels. Assuming that you have the bankroll for those games (and I think you do), I still can't fathom why you continue to play low limit.
I am sending you a separate response direct to your email.
The point has been made that chopping is a fairly regular occurance in live games. I think there is a straightforward way to do it online....
Using Paradise as an example: Add the "I CHOP" option in the options menu, it defaults to no, and you can set it to yes.
Now, on the table, if you AND your neighbor have this option "yes" the chop will happen automatically. If either of you have it "no" then no chop.
You CANNOT change the setting while you are in a game, so there is no I chop except AA bs.
This would add back in an element of live play we are missing.
just a suggestion.
Chopping is not smart poker. It is a "live" convention for weak players who are timid with thier money. It's supposed to be a friendly gesture. Get real, we are playing a game and blinds are a part of the game, just accept it.
Besides your idea is poorly thought out. What if you have the Chop button on, and the player to your right does too, and the player to your left doesn't. That means you will always be giving up a quarter your big blind and will have to contest for your small blind. Now you have to leave the game to take your "chop button off" and lose your seat if there is a wiathing list.
Climbing up on soapbox...
I dunno who thought up the whole chopping thing to begin with but it is a goofy convention. Playing for the blinds is part of the game. Never forget that the whole game begins as a struggle for the blinds. I also hate it when you are viewed by a table as some sort of an evil bad cruel puppy killing person because you don't chop blinds.
I especially like playing against players who get a combative attitude because you won't chop with them. 'I'll teach you not to chop with me types'. Bring it baby, bring it!
Also, what if you are dealt a hand like Aces in your BB. Do you chop that? You have a great deceptive money making hand. Do you really want that chop option turned on then? Thats like throwing money away! I have actually had a player say to me once, "I chop everything but Aces, Kings or Queens. Do you want to chop?" ummm...NO! Good gravy! Another thing I heard in a game that was funny..."Aw, he raised (the 'he' being Joe on his button) I was going to chop with you (shows player next to him the hand), I re-raise" Now if that isn't a tell, I don't know what is! (Player who did this had kings, I had 10-10 and flopped a set..muhahahah)
Down with CHOP!!!!
Getting down from soapbox now. NEXT!
Best regards,
Joe
It would be very easy to arrange online - you would just have 2 buttons "post blind" and "post blind chop". Neither you or your opponent would know until the blinds were refunded - no arguments.
As to whether chopping is good or bad, I don't know. A tight game with a lot of chopping, is a bit of a waste of time. I get the feeling that the players in this type of game are just waiting for a fish and not willing to play until one comes along.
"Chopping is not smart poker. It is a "live" convention for weak players who are timid with thier money."
Aggreed!
However the fact that something is not smart poker is not a good reason to have it unavailable. If chopping makes on-line poker more attractive to weak timid players then it is an option that we should endorse.
You continue to never get the point:
If you and playerA are both choping, fine, if you and player C are not both choping, you dont. How is that any different than in a live game sitting next to a guy who DOESNT CHOP?
It's just a SUGGESTION, it would let people play the way they do in live, you dont have to bother, just leave chop off and stomp blinds all day long.
Man you act like the whole world is to be designed for YOUR pleasure, and fuck everyone else.
Given how popular chopping is in live, why not make it an option online, anything that makes online more inline with live is a good thing in my book.
You're right Jim, chopping doesn't affect non-choppers. But it does reduce the number of raked pots I bet, so I doubt you will be able to convince the sites to go along.
Now why don't you go back to playing some other card games? You know which I mean...
"Given how popular chopping is in live"
True, it does seem to be a prevalent phenomenom in live play, but how popular is it?
First time I played in Vegas, and someone asked me to chop, I was like what is that? Then the table proceeded to explain to me how it was BENEFICIAL to the table and me. Now they were serious, not trying to pull one over. They are the same type that draws four cards to an ACE in 5 card draw, because the rules allow it, so it must be good. They split all pairs in blackjack because it's allowed so it must be good.
Then there's the other half of choppers. Peer pressure. They would rather not chop, but don't want to be the outcast at the table. You can't deny that it's very akward and alienating to be the lone non-chopper.
How many other posters have come forth in supporting chopping?
Have you ever seen the blinds chopped in a Tourney?
I'd wager that if the chop option was available at Paradise it would be used by less 30% of players.
But I agree with Jodder, if the weak and timid players want to the chop option, then I do too. I wouldn't feel bad online, and the fish will fry faster.
Basically, I have to admit your suggestion was good, if the chop option only brings in one fish to the game, it's worth it. Can't hurt me, only help, mine will be NO CHOP.
Im not a big chop fan, but as an example, it does make sense in the Foxwoods 3-6 and 5-10 games that I play in. The rake is higher than online, and not having to smash heads blindvsblind can be a positive EV action, helping one beat the rake.
In a full-game, the rake is there based upon how many were dealt in, not how many see the flop. You want to play 5-10 HE heads-up and pay $3/hand to the house? You cannot make money in this game, nor can your opponent, unless one of you is really, really bad. What will happen is that the better player will lose less to the rake, and the weaker player more, but you both will lose in that scenario.
I always agree to chop in a raked game. Even if I'm the best player at the table, I'm seldom so much better than my opponents that I can profit from heads-up play with a full rake. So, by chopping, I save money.
In a time-charge game, or a dead drop on the button game, I never chop, as I think it will cost me money.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Posted by: CrazyJim
Posted on: Tuesday, 20 March 2001, at 12:20 a.m.
Posted by: DeadBart (deadbart@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 20 March 2001, at 2:29 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Tuesday, 20 March 2001, at 3:21 a.m.
Posted by: CrazyJim
Posted on: Tuesday, 20 March 2001, at 10:21 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 20 March 2001, at 10:58 a.m.
iam thinking of joining 4knights and i will offer the 10 referall to someone who wants it
John, I don't want the referall, but hope you do join us here. I think you will really enjoy the table....... and yes, the game selection is limited now, but, the players more then make up for this drawback. Say howdy to me when you do join us. Buckcp
Going "All In" when a player still has chips can be very agravating to other players in the hand. One is not sure whether he has done it on purpose or not. It is important that we report the player to the poker site it if it looks fishy.
Now to my main point. Don't you think there is alot more abuse of the rules in real casinos? In the last 30 hours of play on Paradise I saw 1 possibly mis-used "all in". In my last 30 hours playing live in a real casino I saw at least 5 abuses that would have not happened online.
1. Player held on to his 2 hole cards even though there was a bet on the turn. (He frequently does this and must be watched).
2. Another player calls "all-in" even though he still had playable chips on the table.
3. Player was light when calling a bet and a raise. It was $30 total and he put in 5 reds = $25.
4. One case of splashing chips. (Was difficult to determine if he had put in the right amount).
5. The guy across the table was picking up a short stack of reds (7 or 8) from the guy next to him as he was ready to cash out. The guy whose chips they were luckily saw and stopped it.
For all that is negative about on-line poker, at least some of the above angle shooting (accidental or not) is eliminated by the computer.
Just a thought.
Unfortunately, angle shooting seems to be on the rise, particularly at hold 'em. This is why it is so important to have well trained dealers who take their job seriously and do not partake in any extraneous talking while in the box.
Am I a calling-station ? What would you have done ?
Game #3 - $1/$2 Hold'em - Ghost is the button
hillbilly:Post Small Blind ($0.50) . Ice-T:Post Big Blind ($1)
Dealt to pokerplayer [ Qh Qd ] (That’s me)
JJ:Fold . Amy:Fold
Big Bill:Call($1) . Charlie:Fold
Denis:Call($1) . Eric C:Fold
pokerplayer: Raise($2)
Ghost :Raise($3) . hillbilly:Fold
Ice-T :Call($2) . Big Bill:Call($2) . Denis:Call($2)
pokerplayer: Call($1)
*** FLOP *** : [ 9c Jh 7d ]
Ice-T:Check . Big Bill:Check . Denis:Check
pokerplayer: Check
Ghost:Bet($1) . Ice-T:Fold . Big Bill:Fold . Denis:Fold
pokerplayer: Call($1)
*** TURN *** : [ 9c Jh 7d ] [ 7h ]
pokerplayer: Check . Ghost:Bet($2) . pokerplayer: Call ($2)
*** RIVER *** : [ 9c Jh 7d 7h ] [ 9h ]
pokerplayer: Check . Ghost:Bet($2) . pokerplayer:Call($2)
Pot: $24.50 | Rake: $1
Did I miss it... what was Ghost's hand?
I would have reraised Ghost before the flop and then bet on the flop, faint heart never won fair lady. If he raised after your bet on the flop then you could have reraised, called or folded depending upon your perception of Ghost's playing style and what he may have. As for me, if I could not reraise him again on the flop I would most often fold and get on with my life. I realize this is an aggressive approach, but this is how I would have played the hand.
William
Did I miss it... what was Ghost's hand?
That's the big Q ! What do you think ? Results later !
I have no read on Ghost - so we are talking somewhat standard-play here !
Thanks ! I also like to be aggressive ;-)
I would have bet the flop, and if reraised, I would have called, check-called, check-called. Your opponent might have AK, AQs, AJs or TT.
Since you feel like a "calling station" I suppose you were up against AA and felt stupid afterwards.
I think QQ and JJ are very difficult to play post-flop, unless you catch a set on the flop of course. But sometimes even that is not enough: Last time I had QQ at Paradise, the flop was KKQ and I eventually lost to AKo who caught an A on the turn...
Yes – Ghost had two Aces – and I knew it – somewhat a stupid play !?
*** RIVER *** : [ 9c Jh 7d 7h ] [ 9h ]
pokerplayer: Check . Ghost:Bet($2) . pokerplayer:Call($2)
Pot: $24.50 | Rake: $1
Big Bill lost $3 (folded) ... Denis lost $3 (folded)
pokerplayer lost $8 [ Qh Qd ] (two pair, queens and nines)
Ghost bet $8, collected $24.50, net +$16.50 (showed hand) [ Ac Ah ] (two pair, aces and nines)
hillbilly lost $0.50 (folded) ... Ice-T lost $3 (folded)
Mathguy or anyone willing to help.
I am trying to analyse some of my hand histories and I am unsure how to determine something.
For example: Statistically, if I have been dealt 2379 hands. On average how many times should I have been dealt a pair of twos, 3-2 offset, 3-2 suited?
I am not so interested in the answer, but rather how to determine the answer.
Thanks,
Jodder
Don’t ask mathguy – what does he know – ask me -;)
Your asking for to much - 2379 hands – I will give you 1326=52*51/2 =’all the combo’
How many times will you be dealt in 1326:
2c7c: 1
8c3h: 1
J3 suited: 4
AK suited or not: 16 (=4*4)
AK suited: 4
AK suited not: 12 (=16-4)
JJ: 6 (=4*3/2)
any pair: 78 (=13*6)
suited: 312 (=4*13*12/2)
not suited: 936 (=12*13*12/2)
any hand: 1326 (=78+312+936)
I love math – and I love hand-history – Don’t you ? Any Q’s ? Feel free!
Thank you!
May I suggest a name change for you, how about: "Einstein, the statistician formely known as the pokerplayer formerly known as Jack"
Now, lets see if I got this straight.
Going back to my original post. If I wanted to calculate how many hands out of 2379 I should have been dealt pocket twos.
4/52 * 3/51 * 2379 or
1/13 * 1/17 * 2379 or
10.76 times
In 2379 deals the number of times I should be dealt 3-2 offsuit would be:
8/52 * 3/51 * 2379 or
8/52 * 1/17 * 2379 or
21.53 times
In 2379 deals the number of times I should be dealt 3-2 suited would be:
8/52 * 1/51 * 2379 or
7.18 times
In 2379 deals the number of times I would be dealt any pair is:
52/52 * 3/51 * 2379 or
1/1 * 1/17 * 2379 or
1/17 * 2379 or
139.9 times
In 2379 deals the number of times I would be dealt 3-2 suited or offsuited is:
8/52 * 4/51 * 2379 or
28.7
How did I do?
I think the odds of getting 3-2 suited is not what you have there. It is 8/52 * 1/51 (not 4/51) * # of hands. Check it out and let me know if I am right.
Thank you
In 2379 deals the number of times I should be dealt 3-2 suited would be:
8/52 * 1/51 * 2379 or
7.18 times
I wuld calculate like this: 4/1326 * 2379 = 7.18
But whatever works ... fine with me.
Anyway you got it all right !
As a general tip, in a sample of 2400 hands you need to look at reasonably frequntly occuring hand types to draw any information of value from it. Don't just determine the expected number of AA vs AA actual since the difference is unlikely to be more than one standard deviation from expected. Rather do your analysis on more frequently occuring groups such as pairs >= 10 or suited hands AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, QJ taken as a group.
I'll help with the standard deviation calculations later if you provide information regarding the source of your data.
In other words, 2400 hands is not a significant sample size. You are very likely to receive NO 32s in such a sample size or possibly 4 or 5 hands of 32s.
Many players use a limited sample size to arrive at the conclusion that a gaming site is rigged because they played 2400 hands and never received KK or AA. Or they witnessed 2400 hands during which an abnormal number of drawouts occured.
How they can keep all those hands straight in their head without a computer is beyond me, but even then the sample size is not significant. Don't get me wrong; you can determine a non-random card distribution using statistics, but any given hand is likely to appear a wide range of times.
I've never played on-line poker and was wondering how much they charge to play for a limit like $3-$6? The casinos where i play have a $3.00 button charge, which I guess is roughly around $12.00 per hour.
Thanks
I believe at most sites it is a $3 max rake per pot.
GO TO ANY POKER SITE THEY LIST ALL GAMES AND RAKES
Usually $1 per $20 of pot up to $3 max out of a $60 pot.
some times when i play on line it seems that there are 2 or 3 seats that just keep on winning,i mean they get about 80% of the the hands and the rest are spread out over the other 8 seats.some people say its a loose player in one ,semi-true,but if you watch your cards you wouldnt have a winner.just wondering about the randomness of the random generator.
seat changing frequently, or table hopping is the only way to vary your cards. I've seen people just get annihilate dbyblinds sitting in seats that get trash hands. The odd thing is that the same trash hand frequently wins for the seat in question repeated ly. Most good players would never play the trash to begin with.If you can identify your winning trash, then ypou have a big advantage. This is a weakness in the software.
monday on pp isaw a player come onto game played first 5 hands after she sat down won all 5 then walked. made over 50.00 makes you wonder .same table i never won a hand .played over an hour .makes you wonder.
i been playing 2-4 stud for 3 hours down $200. only call with J's or better. losing to gut shots and flushes all day long.
I once saw a guy at Planet P. hit for a $150 at a .5/1.oo table in little over an hour, it was unbeleivable. He was playing almost anything pre-flop and hitting everything on the flop. He definatley had the hot seat and was smart enough to play it that way.
Unfortuantely I notice this as well. I have experienced hot and cold seats unlike anything I have experienced at live games.
The rebirth of superstition
Jesus Christ. Listen to yourselves. I don't believe what I'm reading. I'm not going to sit here and claim there is no chance that the software if bug free or that the psuedo random number generator is perfect, but what you guys are talking about is pure superstitious belief in luck. The advent of online poker has provided a wonderful avenue for the rebirth of superstition. Now we can just point to the SOFTWARE! The software made a hot seat for that guy.
Replace the word "luck" with "software glitch" and you have yourself a full-fledged belief system that has nothing to do with playing good cards and playing them well.
It's players who believe this kind of stuff that make online poker so profitable. Comments like:
He was playing almost anything pre-flop and hitting everything on the flop. He definatley had the hot seat and was smart enough to play it that way.
Most good players would never play the trash to begin with. [But] If you can identify your winning trash, then ypou have a big advantage. This is a weakness in the software.
are almost too good to be true. Do you people really believe this kind of stuff? "Identify your winning trash hands?". Some guy who "definitely had the hot seat and was smart enough to play it that way."? That is pure luck-BS mumbo jumbo superstitious crap. No other way around it.
As far as the next comment: Unfortuantely I notice this as well. I have experienced hot and cold seats unlike anything I have experienced at live games.
that is a bit more sensible and it's true. The reason is that you play more hands per hour, so the variance is higher. You can go through incredible losing streaks in a short few hours. I have had MULTIPLE losing sessions that approached 100 BB. I've had a couple winning sessions that were around 50BB as well. The swings are just plain huge, and it will often seem that your seat is colder than you would normally expect in a live game. It's because you're hitting FOLD 70 times in an hour instead of mucking your cards only 30 times in the same period during a live game.
Also, to no one in particular, if you haven't gone through a one hour period where you mucked every hand, then you are either incredibly lucky or you play too loose. Maybe if you can learn to "identify the hot seat" or "identify your winning trash hands" things will improve.
Unbelievable.
natedogg
Does anyone know where I can get a starting hand chart for "winning trash cards"?
Gator, The book U are looking for is No Fold`em Hold`em Written by D. R. Sherer
Coyote
Try your regular hand selection. Of course you may have to stop masturbating to look at your cards. Gator is still a pussy.
Only naive chumps like cry baby, Gator. Grow up and play some real poker.
Well said Natedogg. To combat the "hot seat" superstition I throw little pickle slices at the monitor. If I manage to completely cover his oval, he never makes his hand. That's the only defense I've been able to find.
Yesterday I had a really bad session in a LIVE 8-16 hold'em game, if this fact happens to me on-line I first crash my pc, then I spend 5 hours dayly to post in this forum! In effect, I saw in a 3-6 pp game, 22 february 2001, a guy who, playing ALWAYS any hand, grew his bankroll from 100 to 860!!! UNREAL!! I apostrophated him as a cheater (sorry I have shame of it) but was unbelievable his incredible luck. The best was when I had A-A and, playing A-8 found an astonishing board of x-8-x-x-8 (but this also happened to Mr Andy Glazer at TOC 1999 A-A vs A-5, board x-5-x-x-5, and so I'm more happy :-)
Marco
This is great advice mathguy, thanks. Does it work in live games too ?
Dear natedogg,
What you're failing to take into consideration is that negative forces are constantly at odds with positive forces. And when a person with an inordinate amount of positive eons enters a game and his opponents are either in a neutral state or a negative state(eonically speaking), that that's when the player with the excessive degree of positive energy/eons will be at distinct advantage over his opponents(in direct proportion to the difference in eon distribution that is). And if you don't believe me, you can check it for yourself. Just go to www.andygrifithshow.com, lookup episode 47 titled "The Jinx", there the eminent scientist Barney Fife explains everything you'll need to know in detail.
Its probably worse. The program could be intentionally programmed that way to allow for fish that do play trash(you don't play trash out of position , do you?) to win. Get real Natedogg. These organizations are run by organized crime. It is wonderful that the major credit card companies are refusing to permit deposits to be made on US accounts.
Here are a couple of posts from Nate (obviously when he was stuck):
I made the wrong New Year's resolution Posted By: natedogg For the first time in two years I was in the black. My total poker results were positive by about $1000. A few weeks ago the cards started running cold again but I didn't let it bother me. It was all part of the normal fluctuation of poker. I could see that for what it was, now that I'd actually WON some money for once. But the cards stayed cold, and got colder. I lost 7 seven session in a row, including a brutal session of huge no-limit suckouts and dry runs. I was back in the red but not by much and I still didn't let it bother me. I was destined to continue with the upward trend I had finally experienced for the first time. New Year's came and I made a resolution to be a winning player, and to believe in my skills, that they would prevail at the poker table, despite my usual experiences. My first session of the new year, down $1000 after several suck outs. I went home and said screw it, I'll play some online poker even though I highly suspect the integrity. What the hell. One of my first few hands is AA. Flop comes 666 and I lose to quads. Now I remember that I've been suspicious about this online site because I've seen more quads than you would believe while playing on it. I have a feeling the algorithm for distributing the cards has some flaw. I've seen it too often, quads made by 1 card in the hole. I play a little longer, run into quads again, and quit. By the end of the night I'm down $1400, about 25% of my recently rebuilt bankroll and I stop to think about what I did wrong. I always do this after a losing session, try to identify the major mistakes I made or general flaws in my playing style. Nothing. I played well all night. I even knew when to get up and quit the no limit game after a brutal beat because I knew I wouldn't play that well if I put more money on the table. My losses were NOT because of poor play. I get an email from a friend who tells me he tallied all his results and he won $18,000 this past year playing poker recreationally. I personally witnessed him win about 3k of it making 2 outers on the river in no limit hold'em in one amazing session. This is NOT what I want to hear right now, especially from a guy who I know needs those 2 outers. I've had several conversations with different pro and semi-pro players lately and it dawns on me that there's a common thread among them. They have ALL had incredible, astonishing, monumental winning streaks. One of them informed me he once won $6000 in a weekend playing 6-12 hold'em. Another told me that for the first five months of being a poker pro, he averaged almost 4 big bets per hour playing 30-60 and 40-80 full time. Another tells me that in his first year of poker he won so much money that he progressed from 6-12 all the way up to 200-400 and now plays that limit regularly. Phil Hellmuth! My god, the lucky streaks. I quote from his latest column: I caught my first break when Jason Lester opened the pot on the button with 10-10 and I moved all-in on him (a significant re-raise) with A-7 in the big blind. He had been raising my big blind quite a bit, but he made a stand at the wrong time. He quickly called my re-raise and the flop was J-J-3, the turn was the most beautiful looking ace I have seen in awhile. ... Nice break for me, and bad break for the rest of the field. Only a player who is totally accustomed to sucking out and getting lucky could write about this hand the way he did. Lester "made a stand at the wrong time"? Yeah, if you believe in fate. Otherwise he brilliantly outplayed you but you got lucky anyway. Then I remember the biggest one of all: Doyle Brunson. In his book Super/System he claims that he believes in rushes, and that a significant portion of his winnings have come from rushes. He says that he only knows of ONE winning pro who doesn't believe in rushes. This goes against EVERYTHING that is written by the foremost poker theorists. Paraphrase: "Sometimes I'd be playing so fast and rushing so hot that I'd break every player at the table". Has anyone ever done this? Busted every player at the table? He also says in his bio that after recovering from a near-fatal illness, he went on a mad hot streak and won 55 sessions in a row! And he even has the gall say that those who complain about how lucky he is are dead wrong. Excuse me? There's no denying he's a great player, but there's also no denying he's had his share of luck. In fact, if a player as good and as successful as Doyle will say he believes in rushes and that you have to cultivate a rush by playing every hand after you win a pot (which he does claim), I can only assume he believes in luck, which is usually the mark of a terrible player. What is going on? I'm sorry folks, but if I ever win 55 sessions in a row at ANY limit, I'll never be in the red again. But I'd have to get lucky to do it. I made the wrong new year's resolution. I should have resolved to get lucky. natedogg
Fishy online games - how to play Posted By: natedogg There is practically no chance that PP is running software deliberately designed to make you lose when you cash out. It defies all logic. There just is no reasonable theory for motive. I've been playing quite a bit lately and I started off doing well. However, I'm losing heavily right now. I've bled over $1200 straight in the past three days without winning more than one or two pots per session. Every set, two pair, or big pair has gone down in flames. And I DID NOT cash out yet. I never cashed out a dime and I'm getting ripped to shreds by bad beat after bad beat. The cards are playing as if the deck is cold-stacked, with the cards pre-determined to come out in just the right sequence to cost me as much money as possible. I don't believe PP has anything to do with this. I strongly suspect there are players who can determine what your hand is. I don't know anything about the software or how it works, but the game sure feels liek that sometimes. There are two kinds of tables you can play at. The first table is full of clueless morons who play any two cards and can run you into bad beats the likes of which will haunt you for days. However, these seem to be the honest games. The second table is the kind which makes you feel like you're in a boxing match. Every hand is played aggressively when you're in it. In fact, sometimes you can notice that it's less aggressive when you're NOT in the hand. You feel like the whole table is taking pot shots at you alone, and whenever you raise preflop, there is so much pressure on the flop you can't stay. It's almost as if the players can see your cards. They KNOW when you miss the flop, every time without exception. They KNOW when your hand is shaky. They KNOW when you're drawing. It's uncanny. It's these tables that I avoid. I just leave. I feel there's a good chance something funny is going on. They may be able to see my cards or the table may just be full of personas all controlled by one colluder. I don't know the answer but I have VERY VERY rarely, if ever, played at a live table that could pressure me and punish me the way some of these online games can do. Even when I've played No-limit with some of the toughest and smartest players in the bay area. The pressure just isn't there. I've played ALL THE TIME at games where the suckouts are brutal and frequent. The number of bad beats and suckouts doesn't seem unusual to me at all. It's the tables where the players seem to read your hand so well that feel unnatural. One of the keys to winning online is to avoid the table when it feels like the players can see your cards. The nice part about this strategy is it doesn't matter WHY. So you don't have to be superstitious or paranoid to believe in this strategy. They may actually just be playing that way by chance, or they may be so good you can't win, or they may be colluding or using cracked software. Whatever the reason, get out. The fact is, these games are totally beatable as long as no one is cheating. However, unlike with a public card room, I think you need to be more sensitive to the fact that players may be cheating and avoid playing at a table where it feels like that is the case. natedogg
Don't be silly clinteroo!
The posts you quoted do not in any contradict what I'm saying about this "hot seat" theory. In fact, in my response to the "hot seat" theory I specifically said I will make no claims that the software is bug free or that the randomizer is perfect. I still believe there's a chance that the randomizer is imperfect.
However, anyone who seriously believes that you can "identify the winning trash hands" is totally deluded. Anyone who thinks a player will be "smart enought to realize he's in a hot seat and play it accordingly" is spouting the same gibberish you hear in the casino when all the ignorant fish point to the big winner's seat and proclaim it a lucky seat! "Gimme that seat when he moves, dealer! I'm gonna when if I can sit down in that seat!".
It's the same mentality.
I don't see anything in the above quoted posts that would lead someone to believe I think there are "hot seats" on Paradise Poker.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the point of why you quoted me. Care to elaborate?
natedogg
My main point was that you so deridingly tell people how stupid they are for beleiving in luck. Comments such as:
"but what you guys are talking about is pure superstitious belief in luck"
And yet in the posts from you in January you are talking about the same things.
I can see where you might misinterpret.
A belief in the power of luck is wrong. The fact that players have BEEN lucky is correct. Luck is only apparent in retrospect. So, Phil Hellmuth has been extremely lucky, and Doyle Brunson got lucky and had a 55 session win streak, but it wasn't because he picked the lucky seat! The lucky seat belief is a mistake.
Players get lucky all the time. Players ARE lucky all the time. All that means is they made more than their fair share of big hands, or sucked out more than their fair share.
It doesn't mean that they have some special force that attacts the good cards. Do you see how believing in a "lucky seat" is just as ignorant and superstitious as believing in a "lucky player"? Do you see how a player's results can indeed by "lucky", objectively, without bringing superstition into it?
natedogg
Nate I think we pretty much agree I just think you were a little to strong in your criticism of other people. IMHO
The bit from these extracts that caught my eye was nate's reference to Phil Hellmuth and lucky streaks. Most of you, being in the US, will not have seen the series 'Late Night Poker' on British television. Hellmuth won the third series a few months ago, but in both his heat AND the final he was very lucky indeed at several key moments. Same story - people outplayed him but the cards ran kind for him.
Helmuth has always been a weiney. He is also a sore loser when he loses. He always blames his losses on someone else getting lucky. I have enjoyed pounding him at the tables several times.
well, while statisticly i understand it is a reality,and the probability is a certainty,i just cant figure what the odds are ,from your response it would seem that devine intervention is a probable cause,yet from the responses that addressed the question,the symptoms that i have experienced are not that unusual. i would like to thank you for your input,and the extensive diatribe on my possible metaphysyical status and if you care to repond to the question posted perhaps we will has a better understanding of you reading comprehension.
Well, if the question you wanted answered was about the randomness of the random number generator, you might want to read:
http://www.paradisepoker.com/shuffling.html http://www.paradisepoker.com/rng.html
If they use the system they say they are, there's no reason to suspect any problem with the randomness of the decks, as every possible deck is represented evenly and unpredictably...
Posted by: natedogg (nate-web@thegrovers.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 21 March 2001, at 7:20 p.m.
Posted by: clinteroo (csharcourt@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 22 March 2001, at 12:33 p.m.
Posted by: natedogg (nate-web@thegrovers.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 22 March 2001, at 2:06 p.m.
Posted by: clinteroo (csharcourt@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 23 March 2001, at 11:31 a.m.
Posted by: Black Ace
Posted on: Thursday, 22 March 2001, at 5:06 a.m.
Posted by: M. A.
Posted on: Thursday, 22 March 2001, at 3:12 p.m.
Posted by: kinnaye (kinnaye@thepokerforum.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 22 March 2001, at 4:03 a.m.
Posted by: Matt Wright (mmwright@students.uiuc.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 22 March 2001, at 4:11 a.m.
Certainly, the types of players I want to play against believe in "hot seats" and "hot players." They will cite as irrefutable proof the guy in 3-6 at my table who plays every hand and has won EVERY hand in which he's made it to the river (about 80% of them!) during the last hour. This happened to a friend of mine in a live game (he's definitely a live one!). We couldn't beat him for a solid hour and he won over $1200 in one session.
A similar player where I deal repeated the feat over a 12-hour stretch ($1200). I sat down to deal a $15-$30 game the other day, which is fairly tight in my area, and scooted the same guy eight straight pots, five of which were huge. I have no clue how much he won on that streak, but I was tipped plenty...
Believing in hot and cold seats and players is a self-defeating attitude. It's like saying that the roulette wheel has come up black ten times in a row so it's likely to be black next spin. Or is it likely to be red according to the law of averages? I forget what that book said. No wonder I'm a lousy roulette player.
I'm not saying that rushes do not exist. In fact, Doyle Brunson states in his book "Super/System" that rushes DO exist. But the reason is not that hot and cold seats exist. It is because of poker psychology. Players are intimidated by a winner and are therefore more likely to play timidly and predictably against this opponent.
Online poker sites deal FAR more hands than humanly possible and this translates into quicker wins and losses. This adds to the misperception that online poker produces more hot and cold streaks.
thanks for your message,i posted this after a session online where the game went to heads up and the same loose player was the only winner i saw in 15 hands,,then i went to a casino where the 8 seat had 4 different players of different styles that just kept on winning,for 5 hours,so it does happen live and on the net,and i am trying to gett an idea of how and what types of players these are.
Think about this:
A loose player will win much more often than a tight player and the pots they win will be, on average, larger.
Can you see why?
I am from the UK, and as such inexperienced at limit poker. However I have beaten Paradise for a couple of thousand dollars in the two months I've been playing there, principally at 2-4 and 3-6 hold'em. The one area of my game that seems to lose me money is my play of medium pocket pairs (T-T thru 8-8). My question is twofold a) Assuming you are in mid-position, with one caller ahead, in an "average" PP 2-4 game, do you raise or call with these hands?
b) Assuming you are up against two opponents, and the flop comes with one overcard. Do you fold, call, or raise if there is a bet to you?
I realise these questions are a little vaguely worded, but I would appreciate any input.
A couple of examples.
I have TT in mid-position, with a caller ahead of me. I also call and we see the flop four-handed (both the blinds are in). The flop is K74, all check to me, I bet. Blinds fold, e.p calls. The action goes check, bet, call all the way to the river, with no more overcards showing. e.p shoes K6.
I have TT, again in mid-position. Again, there is one caller to me. This time, I raise. Cutoff calls, blinds fold. Flop comes K43, e.p bets, and I raise, hoping for a free card on the turn. Cutoff folds, e.p three bets and I muck. e.p shows KJ.
How do you rate my play of these hands? (feel free to be brutal :-D)
Regards,
Richard
a. call
b. raise once, and fold on the turn if you face continued aggression. if you are out of position, you should raise once and probably fold right there if you get re-raised.
Hand one:
Bet the flop and turn but NOT the river. If he's still with you at the river with only a K, he's not going anywhere. If he's on a draw, he's not going to call.
Hand two:
I don't mind the raise here but only do it if you think you'll gain the button. Also, you should fold if bet into on that flop by an early player. He's got a K, period, and "free card" is not likely. Buying the free card only helps when you have 8 or 9 or 13 outs but NOT when you have only two outs.
natedogg
Natedogg perfectly centred the problem. I can modestly add that your best option with your 10-10 (or similar pairs) is:
PREFLOP:
- try to thin the field even with a reraise (hard time if you find a higher pair) when there are 1 or 2 callers
- if the pot is multiway the best move is to just limp and hope to catch the third 10 on the flop or a very good draw such a 7-8-9 flop. If you don't make a set and there are even just 1 overcard throw the hand.
FLOP:
- If you raised preflop having 1 caller and flop comes with 1 overcard go ahead and bet if checked to you or raise and prepare to muck if u get reraised.
As general rule, you teach me that if you have position vs an opponent who raises preflop, his more probable holding is 2 overcards and not a higher pair and so you can better evaluate where you are in dipendence of the flop.
Marco
These situations are very tricky – had a lot trouble with’em myself – I don’t have THE ANSWER – but here are some guidelines.
With medium pocket pair in mid-position and an overcard I don’t like:
(a) an early limper
(b) a cold-caller behind me
(c) too many players to see the flop
(d) riverbetting
(e) 2 or 3 overcards
a) Assuming you are in mid-position, with one caller ahead, in an "average" PP 2-4 game, do you raise or call with these hands? CALL
b) Assuming you are up against two opponents, and the flop comes with one overcard. Do you fold, call, or raise if there is a bet to you? RAISE or FOLD
#1: I like your play except for the riverbetting – Notice by not raising pre-flop you gain information post-flop !
#2: At first your play here seemed OK to me but giving it a lot of thoughts: (1) I don’t like your pre-flop-raise ... (2) You have a clear FOLD on the flop (an early limper bets in to you who had showed strength – besides you have a cold-caller behind you)
JMO – BTW good post ! Keep on posting !
Somebody suggested posting more hand histories for people to evaluate. Ok, here's one:
Game #47651932 - $5/$10 Hold'em - 2001/01/27-15:41:49
(CST) Table "St. Croix" (real money) -- Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: darkstranger ($12 in chips)
Seat 2: *BABY* ($404 in chips)
Seat 3: river magic2 ($61 in chips)
Seat 4: natedogg ($166 in chips)
Seat 5: kbbjpp ($321 in chips)
Seat 6: Dianey ($115 in chips)
Seat 7: Antiqua2 ($72 in chips)
Seat 8: Hvymtl ($375 in chips)
Seat 9: TheFrog ($195 in chips)
Seat 10: zaksplat ($185 in chips)
Dianey : Post Small Blind ($2)
Antiqua2: Post Big Blind ($5)
Hvymtl : Sit out
Dealing...
Dealt to natedogg [ Jh ]
Dealt to natedogg [ Jc ]
TheFrog : Fold
zaksplat: Fold
darkstranger: Fold
*BABY* : Fold
river magic2: Call ($5)
natedogg: Raise ($10)
kbbjpp : Fold
Dianey : Fold
Antiqua2: Fold
river magic2: Call ($5)
*** FLOP *** : [ Th As 3c ]
river magic2: Check
natedogg: Bet ($5)
river magic2: Call ($5)
*** TURN *** : [ Th As 3c ] [ 9s ]
river magic2: Check
natedogg: Check
*** RIVER *** : [ Th As 3c 9s ] [ Js ]
river magic2: Bet ($10)
natedogg: Raise ($20)
river magic2: Call ($10)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $74 | Rake: $3
Board: [ Th As 3c 9s Js ]
darkstranger didn't bet (folded)
*BABY* didn't bet (folded)
river magic2 lost $35 [ Qs Jd ] (a pair of jacks)
natedogg bet $35, collected $74, net +$39 (showed
hand) [ Jh Jc ] (three of a kind, jacks)
kbbjpp didn't bet (folded)
Dianey lost $2 (folded)
Antiqua2 lost $5 (folded)
Hvymtl didn't bet
TheFrog didn't bet (folded)
zaksplat didn't bet (folded)
One thing to notice is that with position and JJ, I got the free card, AND I was playing against a player who will call down a raise on the river even tho it's 99% guaranteed he's losing. I AT LEAST had an ace. Regardless of what the river is, I call. The J on the river let me raise.
natedogg
Don't you think you made a mistake taking the free card? You gave him a free shot at hiting an 8 outer. It seems like this guy might bet out anyway after your display of weakness, so are you going to fold this hand to any bet, or just if an 8 or K or Q or 10 falls . I like to bet the turn , then showdown free if an iffy card comes or pop the last bet when a rag comes.
Of course, having last position gave you extra ways to play the hand correctly.
I think this is one of the easier hands to play, however you could argue about a turn bet or check. I think I would bet the turn, especially when you're going to call a bet on the river regardless what hits, since there is a good chance you get the pot right there, and no real fear of a raise. An ace would probably bet or check-raise the flop.
Regards, ME.
You gave to rivermagic a real dangerous freecard.
I think you didn't bet on the turn fearing an Ace (or a better hand, but with a hand such as 10-10 or A-10 probably rivermagic raised in preflop). 3-3 is a good holding for rivermagic to check-raise you on the turn (in that case you totally guess your 4th move). But as you read in a above answer, if he had an ace probably bet first or check-raised you on the flop.
Giving a freecard on the turn you could lose vs an open straight draw and a backdoor flush. And so, when the third spade comes on the river and you raised him, you gave yourself a serious possibility to lose 3 bets (and with that Jack he could hit a straight playing with K-Q).
Probably you have a good reading about this player and you played a little bit riskious but well(the rule is that whenever someone wins the pot has made the right moves :_)
Marco Marco
You "got the free card"? You didn't NEED a free card here, you were winning. Your opponent was the one needing a free card. I think that generally checking the turn and then calling a bet on the river is totally the wrong way to go about a hand like this. If you had bet the turn, your opponent would have called and you make him pay for his draw. If the river had come a blank he would have just checked again and you would have missed a bet. If you have a medium-strength hand with position, always bet the turn and check the river. That way you make draws pay, you lose the same amount if against a better hand, and you have the option of betting again if your miracle card comes.
Chris
I think you are all correct about my turn check. I absolutely should have bet the turn. I badly misused my position. Chris was right on: If you have a medium-strength hand with position, always bet the turn and check the river.
natedogg
Chris used the word "always", so his advice is wrong. There is no always. I often play the hand just like you did, and it often works to my advantage. Usually, when I do this, I am inducing a bluff, or saving a bet if beat. In other words, doing this, you get to the river for only 1 bet when you're beat, you don't have to worry about a semi-bluff (or legitimate) check-raise on the turn, and you will induce many opponents to bet the river almost no matter what they hold.
It is the last point that is key. If the opponent is very passive, then you can't induce a bluff, and that advantage of the play is lost. However, HE players in general seem to be more aggressive than those who favor any other commonly spread form of poker, and the majority of them are going to bet the river with any pair here, and many of them will bet with nothing, figuring you've given up the hand.
If the opponent is one whom is very unlikely to check-raise the turn, then I usually prefer to bet the turn and check the river, primarily for the reasons Chris gave.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I agree. A great many players simply refuse to fold on the flop head-up with an aggressor but drop on the turn with less than top pair or at least an overcard kicker or some other draw. Many of these players, when you check the turn, will either automatically bet or call on the river with hands they would have folded. Checking the likely best hand on the turn should be the preferred play against these types, especially the aggressive bluffers, or when your hand is very strong, or where, as in Natedog's example, you risk being check-raised by a better hand.
Trying to induce a bluff or weak call on the river is occasionally correct. There's an example given in HPFAP where you have A3s and the board on the turn is Axxx. A check behind here is good since giving a free card is not dangerous and you are quite likely to get an extra big bet on the river.
However I don't agree that a check behind on the turn should be considered on natedogg's hand. There are many hands that are disastrous for your hand that you either want to fold or pay for their cards. KQ immediately springs to mind. QJ was equally bad.
Even in the best case scenario you don't win a whole big bet. Say river magic had KXs with a backdoor flush draw on the flop that isnt coming, so he has 3 outs. Assume he's always going to fold the turn when you bet and always going to bluff the river if you check the turn (and you always call any river card). You win only $6 by checking the turn here. If he only bets the river 1/3 of the time you win nothing whatsoever and remember this is a best case scenario, where he has an ideal hand for making this kind of play. If he has a hand with many outs you are going to lose tons making this play.
Also, don't fear a checkraise. If they checkraise, fold! That way you have lost (approx) one big bet, same as if you check the turn and call the river. You only had two outs anyway. It's a brave player who tries to semibluff a raiser on the board ATxx.
Given the general passiveness of PP play, I will bet medium strength on the turn 99% of the time.
Chris
Chris wrote: "It's a brave player who tries to semibluff a raiser on the board ATxx."
Not in my experience (live, not Paradise, I've only played a couple hours of non-tourney HE online, and about 8-10 hours of tourney HE).
This is the perfect time to bluff, really. When the preflop raiser checks the turn, it is as if he is saying "Your Ax is good, I have QQ, KK, or the like". I mean, lots of players would do exactly that with a weak A. Check-call the flop, check the turn, and then bet out the river after the raiser checked the turn. Lots of players, IME. And, many players would fold the river if they had a hand that couldn't beat Ax.
I'm not commenting on the correctness of these plays, I'm just saying they are rather common.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
When I said semibluff a raiser, I meant checkraising on the turn. If they bet on the river it's a bluff, not a semibluff.
Chris
Reprinted from http://www.gocee.com/poker/pokerjokes.htm
>From: user@aol.com
>Hello to all. > >I am planning a trip to Las Vegas soon, and have never played poker there before. Could anyone suggest a book or better yet an internet resource that would fully explain the proper etiquette involved in playing the game in a casino environment?
No need for that! I will explain fully.
First, when you win a pot you should gloat loudly and tell your opponent how badly he played. Always be sure to tell everyone how well you play and your strategy for winning. Always explain in great detail why you make the plays you do. Tell your opponents how well you read them and point out every little error.
Secondly, when you lose a pot you should throw the cards at the dealer and in a loud voice complain bitterly to the person that beat you about what a bad player he is.
Third. Always ask for new decks and setups and constantly complain about how the dealer in the box "cold decks" you whenever he deals. Tell the current dealer and everyone at the table you will never play on one of his downs ever again and not only that he can't even deal the cards without making a mistake. Even if he doesn't make a mistake wait patiently for some very minor infraction and then loudly complain about his indiscretions.
Fourth. Don't forget to glare and stare at players and dealers and try to intimidate people with your mean callous disposition. Constantly mutter under your breath, always speaking just loud enough so people can hear the foulest stream of obscenities that you can possibly think of.
Last. When you miss your straight, flush or full house or fail to make two pair when necessary, cry like a little baby about how unlucky you are and how you never catch any cards. Moan and groan about how unlucky you are. Always complain out loud about the odds against your opponent beating you.
Never forget to mention that he had only one card in the deck with which to win. Tell everyone how you can never catch a break. Let people know that if it wasn't for the complete morons sitting at this table, you would be winning a lot of money. Tell them that the world sucks, and wonder out loud about how you could be so unlucky. Tell them you are the best player in the room, yet you are still losing to a bunch of idiots that can't even spell poker.
All of the above are acceptable, desirable character traits for partaking in any casino poker activity.
BobA 928674 The nicest guy at the table.
Submitted to RGP by BobA 928674
Go to Las Vegas
There's a guy who lives in Ohio. One morning, he hears a voice in his head. The voice says, "Quit your job, sell your house, take all your money, and go to Las Vegas." He ignores the voice.
Later in the day, he hears the voice again. "Quit your job, sell your house, take all your money, and go to Las Vegas."
Again, he ignores the voice.
Soon he hears the voice every minute of the day. "Quit your job, sell your house, take all your money, and go to Las Vegas."
He can't take it anymore. He believes the voice. He quits his job, sells his house, takes all his money, and flies to Las Vegas. As soon as he steps off the plane, the voice says, "Go to the Horseshoe."
He goes to The Horseshoe.
The voice says, "Put all your money into a World Series of Poker (WSOP) entry."
He puts up his $10,000 and buys an entry into the WSOP.
He goes to his assigned tournament table. The first hand is dealt and the guy is dealt AsAd.
The voice says, "Go all in."
He pushes his entire $10,000 bankroll into the pot. Three players call.
The dealer lays down the flop which is 8h9h10h.
The voice says, "F@*#."
Submitted to RGP by ken@elsop.com (Ken Churilla)
Last one, I promise!
Once again from
http://www.gocee.com/poker/pokerjokes.htm
Could someone please explain Omaha to me?
Surely.
What you do is get four cards. Doesn't matter much what they are because nobody really looks at them anyway. Next, they put three cards on the board. It doesn't matter what they are because nobody really pays any attention to the flop either. Then one more card for the turn and another one for the river. Same betting scenario as before. Doesn't really matter much what they are, except, for a few of the players that may have "cheated" and looked at their hole cards. These players may now fold if they have absolutely no outs. (Mostly bad sports.) Now, at the showdown, everybody turns over their cards and helps the dealer figure out who has the best hand. You MUST play two cards out of your hand so this usually takes a while and and the winning hand is usually found out after a little bit of searching by all of the players and a partially confused dealer. The dealer now pushes the pot to the wrong player and everybody yells at him and he smiles glibly and says, "Oh yeah,,,sorry" and then sends it in the right direction. Then, after all of that excitement dies down, everybody lets out a collective sigh of relief and gets ready to wind up and do it all over again. Fun game.
Submitted to RGP by BobA928674@aol.com on 11/5/98
n/t
n/t
Most of the talk on this board centers on Paradise. Can anyone tell me if they have played on Planet, how it is, and whether it compares favorably or unfavorably with Paradise.
well as a general rule one might say that quads stand a chance of winning the hand at planet if that answers your question
n/t
I originally started at Paradise, but left after losing my initial $200 buy-in to try Planet. I've been playing on Planet for about 6-8 months, and have not had to send in another deposit aside from my $200 initial buy in (I'm not insinuating that Paradise is crooked or anything like that, this is just my experience). The graphics are a bit silly, if you ask me, and they did go through a period of slow service, but it has improved dramatically. They don't have as many players as Paradise, but I feel there's enough. Very rarely am I unable to find a game for my limits ($.50/$1.00-$5.00/$10.00 hold 'em).
Hope this helps.
Liquid Swords
I enjoy PlanetPoker, and mainly play at that site. One nice thing at PlanetPoker for first-timers is no fee when buying in. I prefer Planet to Paradise, mainly because my luck has been much better there. Who knows?
this is my question..
is this possible if one plays very tight with very selective starters like A234 AA23 and so forth??
I am a sucker when it comes to omaha. I can win regularly (though not much...) at low-limit, playing only premium hands. Other players are generally terrible and many (most?) will play any four cards.
Make sure your cards work well with one another (All four must generally work together unless you have A2--but it helps to have the A suited!). Play many more hands in late position and VERY few in early position. Don't draw to anything but the nuts, especially nut flushes or straights. Smaller sets are very bad. Big sets have a tough time holding up. You definitely need the board to pair.
You will be folding MANY more hands than your opponents. It may seem that you can play more hands since the pot is (often) split. This is an illusion, as you are just winning half the pot. The best hands are those that can win both high and low (good low with suited A or four high cards).
Buy Ray Zee's book. It will teach you how to properly play tight and beat the loose low limit games. It will also teach you how to go beyond that for less-loose games.
It is very easy to beat Omaha (hi or hi-lo) if lots of people are seeing the flop and chasing non-nut hands. Luckily, many of the Omaha games are like this until you get beyond 10-20.
In my short experience online at Paradise, I notice that the % of players seeing the flop tends to run around 30-35 in HE, but more like 40-60 in Omaha. I've played in some 5-10 Omaha hi games where the average was over 70% for a sustained period of time. In the real world, I used to play 3-6 Omaha hi-lo in Chicago where you could go 2+ hours at a time and not see a single one of your 9 opponents fold preflop.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Check this one out!
Table "Fiji" (real money) -- Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: riots ($202.25 in chips)
Seat 2: unluckyfish ($1,292.50 in chips)
Seat 3: albere ($1,479 in chips)
Seat 4: phe.rm ($2,268 in chips)
Seat 5: allaw ($220 in chips)
Seat 6: tszone ($710.25 in chips)
Seat 7: Angelina ($2,850 in chips)
Seat 8: Big Guy 68 ($1,027 in chips)
Seat 9: colonate ($95.75 in chips)
Seat 10: TheRedHead ($1,720.50 in chips)
tszone : Post Small Blind ($10)
Angelina: Post Big Blind ($20)
Dealing...
Big Guy 68: Raisee ($40)
colonate: Call ($40)
TheRedHead: Fold
riots : Fold
unluckyfish: Fold
albere : Call ($40)
phe.rm : Fold
allaw : Fold
tszone : Call ($30)
Angelina: Call ($20)
*** FLOP *** : [ Jc 7h 5s ]
tszone : Check
Angelina: Check
Big Guy 68: Bet ($20)
colonate: Call ($20)
albere : Call ($20)
tszone : Call ($20)
Angelina: Raise ($40)
Big Guy 68: Call ($20)
colonate: Call ($20)
albere : Call ($20)
tszone : Call ($20)
*** TURN *** : [ Jc 7h 5s ] [ 9d ]
tszone : Check
Angelina: Check
Big Guy 68: Check
colonate: Check
albere : Check
*** RIVER *** : [ Jc 7h 5s 9d ] [ 3s ]
tszone : Check
Angelina: Bet ($40)
Big Guy 68: Fold
colonate: Call All-in ($15.75)
albere : Fold
tszone : Call ($40)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $444.25 | Side pot 1: $48.50 | Rake: $3
Board: [ Jc 7h 5s 9d 3s ]
riots didn't bet (folded)
unluckyfish didn't bet (folded)
albere lost $80 (folded)
phe.rm didn't bet (folded)
allaw didn't bet (folded)
tszone lost $120 [ Ac Js ] (a pair of jacks)
Angelina bet $120, collected $492.75, net +$372.75 (showed hand) [ 4s 6s ] (a straight, three to seven)
Big Guy 68 lost $80 (folded)
colonate lost $95.75 (showed hand) [ 3h 3c ] (three of a kind, threes)
TheRedHead didn't bet (folded)
-----------------------------------------------------
come on
is that really her
i find it hard to believe that some eastern europeen chick is like this mastermind of poker
*
http://izmet.desetka.si/angelina/
Also used to be the URL of ISMET's playing with the fishes page. But he took it down :(
Too bad.
v
Er, WHY do you find that hard to believe ?? Why should it be easier to believe that some Texan redneck should be a poker mastermind ?
Because women are not that smart, right?
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
Ljubljana, Slovenia
Some are, some aren't, just like men, right? Admittedly, unlike men, women don't often have an ego problem, especially regarding the opposite sex.
Say hi to the guy with the fossils if you ever see me at a casino when you visit the states. And ask Izmet to do likewise.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Angelina, you ROCK! You are a beautiful lady and you play great poker! Count me as the #1 member of your fan club.
Where is Slovenia? W Euro, Eastern E, Baltic Region? Where would I find a map in a casino?
Where is Slovenia??? You dont really think this is a made up country do you??? Just look it up. Here's a hint; Slovenia (who's capital city is Ljubljana) is surrounded by the following countries. Italy is to the west, Austria is to the north, Hungary is to the North east, and Croatia is to the East.
with the hand???
Just curious friend, and no I didnt think it was a madeup country. Excuse me,I am from Belarus.
I'm sorry but I think this was a total fish play. I know that Angelina is a big winner online and everything, but this is one of the worst moves that average players make.
Specifically I'm talking about raising on a draw when out of position.
A terrible, terrible mistake. You have almost no chance of getting the main benefit: the free card. You are first to act! If you are heads up or three handed, it's a bad move because aggression on the turn is what wins those kinds of pots. Nobody is going to give you the free card in a two or three handed pot if you check the turn after raising the flop.
With three people to act behind you in a five handed pot, it's pure insanity. Granted, if you get 4 more small bets into the pot on the flop, you make some slight profit there because you are about 2:1 to make your straight, so you're approximately 1 small bet above even money, IF you don't get reraised and IF you don't have to pay to make your draw on the turn.
You might even face two big bets on the turn (especially with a field of 5 players) and after raising the flop, you have made it so you have the odds to call those two big bets. You're sending your variance through the roof here and you're punishing YOURSELF for not having good position.
This move is fine when you have position but it's a fish move when you are out of position. Of course, that's just my opinion.
natedogg
Oh natedog,
She wasn't raising for a free card, she was raising for value. Her raise made her money. You even say yourself that she made a slight profit. I'm having trouble understanding how you make some slight profit you are also making a total fish play.
Maybe we should send this back to the general hold'em forum?
- Andrew
Andrew, I agree that there MAY be value in the raise but certainly you would need to know that you are going to get callers (at least 3).
You already have a big pot to draw at AND you have +EV on future rounds if it's multiway.
I can only see that a raise here will be +EV when
1) All others fold and you gets heads up against the bettor who is on a draw or has a weak to medium had who could fold to a bet on the river.
2) You know the other players will play for 2 bets here and are likely to pay off on the turn if you make the str8.
Possibly the raise costs money in EV units. She's in a perfect check-raise position but no-one should fall for that if a str8 comes on the turn. There's lots of angles here for a raise but IMO just value or freecard doesn't work here.
I didn't see how many callers there were. I read too quickly and though the players behind were being made to call 2 bets cold.
Yes, raise for value. The pots too big for much else to work. Build it and they will come!
The free card is still incidental and should not have happened IMO.
What would have been fantastic would have been the same sequence occurring on the turn!
Regards Mike N
You're right in that usually you do need position to make a play like that but considering the calling stations she was up against, I think she played it fine. Pocket 3s calls 2 bets on the overcard flop vs. 5 callers (I know he was short-stacked, but...),
Small blind could not have played it any worse. Flops top pair-ace kicker on broken up rainbow board and he check-calls. He was the one who needed to check-raise, and maybe he shuts out the straight draw.
Bottom line is it was a 20-40 hand that played like a 2-4 hand. When you have four calling stations in with you, at any level, it's correct to ram and jam on the flop with open-ended draws (and decent flush draws). If someone 3-bet like you mentioned, she's supposed to cap it, not for the free card, but for value. The free card was just a nice little fringe benefit at this table of passive fish.
See Bob's and Andy's responses (the subject line is a bit misleading, this was NOT a free card play, the free card is an added benefit to this play), you do not understand hold'em as well as you think you do (while Andy does, being a veteran poster here and a terrifying Paradise $20-40 player, I don't know about Bob, but he makes lots of sense too). If I get reraised on the flop, I raise again if there are enough callers.
Three-handed, this play loses value as it indeed becomes a free card play only or as a setup for a bluff, but it can nevertheless be a good play against a certain type of opposition. Headsup I will pound-pound-pound except against a solid utg player who won't lay down his hand knowing I could be full of it.
As for calling two cold on the turn, I have to do it anyway (unless the board gets really nasty), you did count the pot, right? After jamming on the flop, I can call easily (and I want to). You could say some of my outs were dead, but there was no way of knowing that before showdown, ok?
Furthermore, there is a thing called balance. If you only jam with your monsters, some curly girl from Slovenia will start exploiting you making huge (and perfectly good) laydowns against you. For this reason alone I am willing to make lots of slightly -EV plays on the flop. If I can find one that is slightly +EV (as this one is) I ain't passing it up, capisce?
Take my advice Nate, and I do mean it in a nice way: stay out of $20-40 Paradise games, you're not ready yet.
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
Slovenia
Don Heftolo,
Somber Brotherhood
http://www.desetka.si/somber
I appreciate your support Izzy, but I'd really like you to stop this being offended business. We do not understand your refusing to talk strategy anymore, you are acting like a sulking child. I wish you'd sober up, at least try to get the headers right when using and posting from my account.
This macho bullshit makes me wanna puke.
I love you, Ange.
Angelina, Andrew, and Bob.
She's putting in 1/5 of the money, and has equity of about 1/3 of it. Even on the turn, if it's still 5-handed, she's almost breaking even on the money she puts in, if all 8 of her outs are good (if she misses on turn, she completes on the river a little less than 1/5 of the time).
BTW Angelina, "pound, pound, pound"? When I first saw a post by Izmet, I thought he was a new nick for Abdul. Partially due to his appearance (to my knowledge) just after Abdul announced he was leaving 2+2, and the fact that his comments seemed in line with Abdul's thoughts on poker. It appears you are also in general agreement with Abdul's poker strategies. I would love to see you, Izmet, and Abdul at the same time. Actually, since I've met Abdul, even seeing you or Izmet would be sufficient, since I know what Abdul M'Hall looks like.
Any live action in Slovenia? What's the weather like?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
There is no legal poker in Slovenia, except for one casino on the border catering to Italian guests with two poker tables. Weather is Mediterranean, mild winters and beautifull summers. Do I pass?
You will have to come to Slovenia if you want to meet Izmet or me. Abdul is a dear friend and mentor and looks nothing like us.
Lepe pozdrave iz Slovenije ti posilja prijateljica z druge strani velike luze,
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
Ljubljana, Slovenia
I agree as well but nate is seeing this as a free card play. That free card was an accident caused by some weak play by Angels opponents.
A late post but I've been away.
Why wouldn't someone bet after Angel (her name after seeing her picture) checks the turn.
To raise for a free card in early position seems sort of silly. Certainly if on the flop the players behind fold then you have some options.
Either Angel has EXTREME conrol of this table or the table plays very poorly.
Regards
Mike N
See my response above.
I still stand by what I say here BUT you were obviously not raising just for a free card.
Is it possible to have that kind of control in an on-line game? These players seem so docile that there must be more to the story.
I would raise as well. All those players in for a bet. The pot will be big enough that they will all chase slim draws or be drawing dead if you make the str8 right away.
STILL why didn't someone bet after you checked the turn. Do you like to sandbag a fair bit?
No a raise builds a great pot. The only downside is that it will be so big you will need the best hand to win AND some slim draw actually will have odds to call you on the turn so you'll need to share the EV.
Regards Mike N
Game #51002602 - $5/$10 Hold'em - 2001/02/09-22:03:12 (CST)Table "Azores" (real money) -- Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: mrpurple ($116 in chips)
Seat 2: janky ($100 in chips)
Seat 3: AttackDog ($278 in chips)
Seat 5: natedogg ($381.50 in chips)
Seat 6: clyde33 ($980 in chips)
Seat 7: 02B12 ($133 in chips)
Seat 8: Jazzy2 ($14 in chips)
Seat 9: Big Gibby ($179 in chips)
Seat 10: Send It ($85 in chips)
clyde33 : Post Small Blind ($2)
02B12 : Post Big Blind ($5)
Dealing...
Dealt to natedogg [ 4d ]
Dealt to natedogg [ Qd ]
Jazzy2 : Fold
Big Gibby: Fold
Send It : Call ($5)
mrpurple: Fold
janky : Fold
AttackDog: Fold
natedogg: Call ($5)
clyde33 : Fold
02B12 : Raise ($5)
Send It : Call ($5)
natedogg: Call ($5)
*** FLOP *** : [ 5d 2h 3d ]
02B12 : Bet ($5)
Send It : Raise ($10)
natedogg: Call ($10)
02B12 : Call ($5)
*** TURN *** : [ 5d 2h 3d ] [ 7d ]
02B12 : Check
Send It : Bet ($10)
natedogg: Raise ($20)
02B12 : Fold
Send It : Call ($10)
*** RIVER *** : [ 5d 2h 3d 7d ] [ 6d ]
Send It : Bet ($10)
natedogg: Raise ($20)
Send It : Call ($10)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $139 | Rake: $3
Board: [ 5d 2h 3d 7d 6d ]
mrpurple didn't bet (folded)
janky didn't bet (folded)
AttackDog didn't bet (folded)
natedogg bet $60, collected $139, net +$79 (showed hand) [ 4d Qd ] (a straight flush, three to seven)
clyde33 lost $2 (folded)
02B12 lost $20 (folded)
Jazzy2 didn't bet (folded)
Big Gibby didn't bet (folded)
Send It lost $60 [ Ks Ad ] (a flush, ace high)
I played this hand because I had JUST re-read HPFAP and it mentions that you can profitably play Q5s on the button if there are a few limpers. So I decided to play this hand.
Notice how the A high flush was so timid he couldn't even reraise ONCE. This may be a case where having position cost me a bet because if I had acted first I might have got raised on the river and then re-raised.
comments appreciated
natedogg
I probably wouldn't have called with the Q4 in the first place.
Had I, I would have re-raised on the flop. Now's your chance to use postion, and maybe get the free river or extra bet when the turn hits. I'm sure S&M were requiring full use of position and good post flop play when suggesting Q4 as a starter.
Not sure, but didnt you recently post about you playing "ultra-tight" on Paradise?
And since when does one limper = a few limpers.
I wouldnt touch this hand in this spot with a ten foot pole.
Anyway, congrats on a nice pot though :)
-ActionBob
nt
As the other posters said....so much for your ultratight play. Can you plz give the pages where S&M talking about Qxs?
Especially online...I wouldnt have played that hand. I think it was a very loose call, and you got extra punished when the BB raised you. But....i might have to re-raid HPFAP.
Nice win!
Regards, ME.
I wouldn't had called pre-flop !
Your message look very good !!! How did you do it ?
Please explain !!
Use these tags: PRE and /PRE before and after the hand history. Also, use a BR tag inbetween each line.
natedogg
Can't understand what difference Q5s makes from T5s or J2s, except the little difference in the chance of an overcard if one flop top pair.
As for kicker, there is no anyway and the height of a flush doesn't really matter unless it's an A (nut) high or, to a far smaller extent a K high. In tough games, Q flush is far more likely to run into a higher flush than a lower one.
Playing Q4s on the button is loosening you standards from this position to any suited face card, any connectors, any pairs (naturally) and T or higher one-gappers (starting T8). Doesn't really leave out too many hands, now does it?
lars
Natedogg,
After reading the same SM passage, I've tried limping on the button with weak suited Qs and Ks a few times. However, I almost always want at least 4 limpers before I do this. Once with this play I won a big pot w/K5s. However, I'm still waiting for the straight flushes to start rolling in. :)
Caddy
Ok, I think most people agree that this hand is usually not worth calling. I obviously am in that camp now myself. (the hand was from feb 9, when I was first formulating my ultratight theory).
Obviously, I got supremely lucky even tho i didn't even play it well. I probably should have raised the flop.
I don't remember the exact page in HPFAP where it discusses Qlittle suited but it's in the first section. Specifically, it says you can play it profitably because you're coming in for one bet only, you're playing against bad players, you're going to play it well after the flop (which I didn't), and you can get away from it if you flop top pair.
I doubt I'll be playing this hand in the future.
natedogg
at the Paradise. Cmon guys, lets get real! I have seen 35 in the last two weeks. Random? This is only in 90 hrs of play. Yes I keep track of this. Number of times I got the quads? Zero. The cheerleaders for paradise here are probably the owners posting. Lol
I dealt live holdem for probably four total hours tonight. I saw two quads within that time. Extending this to 90 hours (2/4*90) would equal 45 quads if this pace was kept up.
Considering that I deal half as fast as online, that would actually be 90 quads that I would witness dealing holdem in the same number of hands.
I know my reasoning is flawed, but I made the same logical error as everyone who can't believe how often a given event occurs. It's called fluctuation.
What's more, if you see the flop every hand, you will flop quads one out of 4,178 times. If everyone stayed in to see the flop every time, someone would flop quads every 417 hands. This would be once every seven hours online. In 90 hours of play, you can expect quads to be flopped roughly 13 times (if everyone stayed). Adding the turn and the river cards SIGNIFICANTLY increases chances of making quads.
But this number will vary drastically, as quads do not often occur (relatively speaking).
I have to agree with the first guy. I play quite a bit, online and live, but I have never seen a 8-8-8 flop or a 9-9-9 flop happen 3 times in 2 hours playing live. Online, seen it twice.
I don't know what it is, but quads appear more often at paradise than anywhere. Yes, I understand there are more hands being dealt in a given time frame than anywhere else, but I have gone weeks without seeing quads in hold'em live, but I never go a night without seeing them at least once online.
Guess what ? Three more quads today in an hour and half. But its been proved it is random! Hehe
You can e-mail yourself and post the hand history here with less than twenty clicks on your mouse. Bring it!
funny - I keep track of every hand and quads are compleytely normal - in fact sub normal. Flushs are the one that shoe up more often.
Let's hypothesize that Paradise Poker's "random generator" is unintentionally nonrandom. (I know, MAYBE it is INTENTIONALLY nonrandom, but I am not considering that here...)
If this was the case, then the nonrandomness would NOT have discernable patterns such as dealing quads more often or, for that matter, any given hand. Based upon the way random number generators and any shuffling algorithms I have seen work, the nonrandomness itself would be random and would it be statistically impossible to produce such patterns. The reason is that the random number generator does not examine completed hands and does not catagorize completed hands by their rank, but rather as a series of numbers.
OK, these numbers representing the cards surely have a predictable order. That is, perhaps the 9c is number "9", the 9d is "22", the 9h is "35", and the 9s is "47". So, you may say, the random number generator counts by 13s... But by their nature, random number generators do not follow such a pattern.
The basic random number function DOES have a pattern. But it does not follow any particular progression, only the same "random" sequence if you start in the same place every time. So a hand containing "9999" has no relation to a hand containing "8888".
Dealing live poker, I deal to several players who believe I did not shuffle the deck because they had the same two cards last time (even if they were different suits). Last night, I dealt a flop that came out (I think) "Ks Ts 8c". The very next flop contained "Kd Tc 8d" (or something similar) and a player got mad at me for not shuffling the cards.
It should be obvious that if I didn't shuffle the cards and simply stacked them on top of one another that one person would not receive two cards in a row, as consecutive cards are dealt to different people.
Anyway, my point is that even in live games, many players (and I mean MANY players) don't think the random number generator is random.
I am not saying that the deal is completely random. I don't know that it's possible to get a completely random sequence of numbers. I do not believe that the numbers are nonrandom enough to find a discernible pattern. And if there was such a pattern, it wouldn't be obvious enough to detect through mere observation.
If this was the case, then I would have to conclude that the nonrandomness was intentional.
I think that Malmuth and Sklansky have an opwnership interest. I also think that some of the posters are paid to Paradise.The issue appears to be mute, however, in that most major credit cards are now refusing to allow transactions with them.
I would not be surprised if some posters were part of the ownership of Paradise.
In my opinion, PP could not pay David and Mason enough to persuade them to compromise their reputation.
And it's moot, not mute. ;-)
Sorry. I know it's nitpicky and could be interpreted as me being mean-spirited, but I just couldn't stop myself.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Why don't you post your tax return.
You don't think they'd pay me via a payroll, do you? Of course not. They'd pay me by having the fixed computer let me win. So, all you'd see on my tax return is what I won playing poker, in addition to what I got paid at my regular job. And, how could you know what fraction of the amount won at poker was from Paradise? You don't have to break all that down when you file, just amounts won and lost, not from where each amount was won/lost.
And, I understand your real point. I could have made my prior post whether I was getting paid or not. How can you judge from your distance whether I'm lying or not? True, you can't be certain. However, I will state again, believe it or not, that I'm not getting paid.
Now, how about posting using your real name? One we can look up in a phonebook? Then we can better judge how much to believe in you and your comments?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks for telling us how you get comped.
What was I thinking, responding to someone who can't even post under a consistent nickname, let alone put his real name on his posts?
I should know better than to respond to cowardly online trash as this.
Be warned all. We should just ignore these trolls.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
...you should have been around earlier when they were paying David Sklansky $3000/wk., Dan Hanson $1500/wk., and me $1200/week for our posts on the Internet Forum.
They are taking all credit cards, the problem was with the E-cash company for two days. Back to square 1 chief.
Once again, as I pointed out before, I asked Visa and Mastercard about the denial of credit applied to gambling cites. Here was their response. It is not their decision as to whether these charges will be applied or denied. It is up to the individual BANKS that issue the credit card to determine whether those charges can be applied. To find out if you can still apply charges to your CC at an online gambling site, contact the BANK that issued the card. Also, some credit unions will not allow the charges either.
As for the remark that Mr Sklansky or Mr Malmuth are being paid by Paradise or are part owners, just shows the useless paranoia that does not belong in this forum. Either post these remarks in the "Other topics" forum or perhaps email either individual (or Paradise Poker) and ask them yourselves. I think I speak for many when I say that we are getting tired of reading the same rehashed "conspiracy" theories.
On the other hand, I'm always glad to read about conspiracty theories. I welcome these types of players into my live games...
Me too : )
Just as I always congratulate people who go to the river with a pair of 5s and win with a third 5 on the river - I usually say things like "nice hand" and "Well played" :-)
arn't you. Let's see. You say you have PROVEN without a doubt that Paradise is cheating YET! you still play and complain.
loser!
Please book directly with me. I work for the justice department. I am a completely protected untouchable! Please don't offer to have me sell state secrets however.
At Harrah's (in New Orleans), the bad beat jackpots for stud is permanantly at the minimum (2,000). This is b/c the jackpot is hit almost daily. No one blames the dealers of bad algorithms in their dealing. I saw the jackpot hit twice in a 12 hour period (not my table unfortuantely). different dealers, different tables different decks. THis stuff happens dude. I have not read any of the others posts yet, but I am sure the "cheerleaders" will tell you similar stories (probably with great better stats and factoids than this!).
Well, all I know is every time I sit down in Paradise I see dead people....er....QUADS. Ex: last night, in one hour I had 4 QUADS between my 1-2 table and tourny table. That's in ONE HOUR...died at 4th place in T and went to bed. I even tell people on pokerpages as I play on paradise as they happen, its unreal how many QUADS even at the high#hands/hr, just too strange.
BTW, in the tourny, at 100-200 level, I have AA in mid pos, raise, and BB calls with TT. Flop TT3, he bets, I call, turn A, he bets, we raise back and 4th till _HE_ stops ;-) Need I say more.
Yesterday afternoon, I have 66 utg, raise, get a cold caller and BB, flop Q69, the turn is 9, capped, the river is.....the 9, 94o called my utg raise cold and stayed on the flop. Welcome to PP.
You know you are full of shite. Do you know how to get a hand history. Please post one for us in the next day or so. You average seeing 4 an hour or something liek that, so you might even be able to post one today.
You raise 66 utg and you think Paradise has problems?
It was a table image thing, I had just won with KK.
Game #51002602 - $5/$10 Hold'em - 2001/02/09-22:03:12 (CST)Table "Azores" (real money) -- Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: mrpurple ($116 in chips)
Seat 2: janky ($100 in chips)
Seat 3: AttackDog ($278 in chips)
Seat 5: natedogg ($381.50 in chips)
Seat 6: clyde33 ($980 in chips)
Seat 7: 02B12 ($133 in chips)
Seat 8: Jazzy2 ($14 in chips)
Seat 9: Big Gibby ($179 in chips)
Seat 10: Send It ($85 in chips)
clyde33 : Post Small Blind ($2)
02B12 : Post Big Blind ($5)
Dealing...
Dealt to natedogg [ 4d ]
Dealt to natedogg [ Qd ]
Jazzy2 : Fold
Big Gibby: Fold
Send It : Call ($5)
mrpurple: Fold
janky : Fold
AttackDog: Fold
natedogg: Call ($5)
clyde33 : Fold
02B12 : Raise ($5)
Send It : Call ($5)
natedogg: Call ($5)
*** FLOP *** : [ 5d 2h 3d ]
02B12 : Bet ($5)
Send It : Raise ($10)
natedogg: Call ($10)
02B12 : Call ($5)
*** TURN *** : [ 5d 2h 3d ] [ 7d ]
02B12 : Check
Send It : Bet ($10)
natedogg: Raise ($20)
02B12 : Fold
Send It : Call ($10)
*** RIVER *** : [ 5d 2h 3d 7d ] [ 6d ]
Send It : Bet ($10)
natedogg: Raise ($20)
Send It : Call ($10)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $139 | Rake: $3
Board: [ 5d 2h 3d 7d 6d ]
mrpurple didn't bet (folded)
janky didn't bet (folded)
AttackDog didn't bet (folded)
natedogg bet $60, collected $139, net +$79 (showed hand) [ 4d Qd ] (a straight flush, three to seven)
clyde33 lost $2 (folded)
02B12 lost $20 (folded)
Jazzy2 didn't bet (folded)
Big Gibby didn't bet (folded)
Send It lost $60 [ Ks Ad ] (a flush, ace high)
I played this hand because I had JUST re-read HPFAP and it mentions that you can profitably play Q5s on the button if there are a few limpers. So I decided to play this hand.
Notice how the A high flush was so timid he couldn't even reraise ONCE. This may be a case where having position cost me a bet because if I had acted first I might have got raised on the river and then re-raised.
comments appreciated
natedogg
n/t
I am developing some software that reads the Paradise Hand Histories and creates Access databases that can later be mined for data.
Currently the program is able to generate starting hand information such as:
Hands dealt, played, won, lost, money won, money bet, In both actual amounts as well as in Big Bets and finally the starting hands EV.
Future stats include analysis of starting hands based on position and bets, callers.
Included in the following post is some sample (actual data) from Paradise's .50/1.00 and 1.00/2.00.
Be-aware that the sample is approximately 1500 hands (small) and thus some of the EV's for hands that normally would have a negative EV is positive because only a few of those hands were played with successfull results. The same is true for hands that should normally have positive EV.
Two examples are: 83s that had been played twice, winning both times, showing a positive EV of 2.167 big bets.
AKs was dealt in the sample 4 times, won once, lost three times and is showing a negative EV of 0.483 Big bets.
I am unsure how many hands it would take for the statistics to start showing EV close to what they should be Paradise and the game texture, but I am convinced that a tool like this can be invaluable for showing starting hands as well as finding other leaks in your game.
In any event, I am looking for feedback, comments, suggestions, opinions or questions regarding this, and if you believe there is any kind of a market.
I estimate I will be ready to start Beta testing it in about a month or so and will probably be looking for volunteers.
Regards, Jodder
| Hand | Dealt | Played | Won | Lost | Amnt_won | Amnt_bet | Won_loss | BB_won | BB_bet | BB_won_loss | EV |
| 83s | 4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 9.50 | 3.00 | 6.50 | 9.50 | 3.00 | 6.50 | 2.167 |
| 94s | 5 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 10.50 | 4.00 | 6.50 | 10.50 | 3.50 | 7.00 | 2.000 |
| Q6o | 11 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 15.50 | 5.25 | 10.25 | 15.50 | 5.25 | 10.25 | 1.952 |
| 88 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 48.25 | 17.00 | 31.25 | 30.00 | 10.50 | 19.50 | 1.857 |
| 75s | 4 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 21.25 | 7.50 | 13.75 | 21.25 | 7.50 | 13.75 | 1.833 |
| QJs | 4 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 28.00 | 13.00 | 15.00 | 28.00 | 11.00 | 17.00 | 1.545 |
| JTs | 3 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 27.75 | 11.00 | 16.75 | 27.75 | 11.00 | 16.75 | 1.523 |
| KTs | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 6.00 | 2.50 | 3.50 | 6.00 | 2.50 | 3.50 | 1.400 |
| 87s | 5 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 32.25 | 16.00 | 16.25 | 29.13 | 13.00 | 16.13 | 1.240 |
| AA | 5 | 5 | 4 | 1 | 37.50 | 17.00 | 20.50 | 37.50 | 17.00 | 20.50 | 1.206 |
| J5s | 4 | 4 | 1 | 3 | 11.50 | 6.00 | 5.50 | 11.50 | 5.50 | 6.00 | 1.091 |
| A9s | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 7.25 | 3.50 | 3.75 | 7.25 | 3.50 | 3.75 | 1.071 |
| 76s | 7 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 16.75 | 8.00 | 8.75 | 12.38 | 6.00 | 6.38 | 1.063 |
| A8s | 5 | 5 | 2 | 3 | 31.50 | 20.00 | 11.50 | 31.50 | 15.50 | 16.00 | 1.032 |
| 65s | 7 | 5 | 2 | 3 | 22.50 | 11.50 | 11.00 | 22.50 | 11.50 | 11.00 | 0.957 |
| KK | 8 | 8 | 5 | 3 | 70.00 | 35.50 | 34.50 | 51.25 | 26.50 | 24.75 | 0.934 |
| A6s | 8 | 7 | 3 | 4 | 38.50 | 20.00 | 18.50 | 38.50 | 20.00 | 18.50 | 0.925 |
| K4s | 5 | 4 | 1 | 3 | 12.50 | 7.00 | 5.50 | 12.50 | 6.50 | 6.00 | 0.923 |
| T5o | 9 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 7.00 | 3.75 | 3.25 | 7.00 | 3.75 | 3.25 | 0.867 |
| 42s | 6 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 16.50 | 9.00 | 7.50 | 16.50 | 9.00 | 7.50 | 0.833 |
| A2s | 6 | 5 | 2 | 3 | 34.00 | 18.50 | 15.50 | 27.75 | 15.50 | 12.25 | 0.790 |
| J8o | 11 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 43.75 | 20.25 | 23.50 | 26.25 | 14.75 | 11.50 | 0.780 |
| Q3o | 18 | 4 | 1 | 3 | 11.50 | 6.50 | 5.00 | 11.50 | 6.50 | 5.00 | 0.769 |
| 92o | 14 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1.75 | 1.00 | 0.75 | 1.75 | 1.00 | 0.75 | 0.750 |
| 33 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 4 | 31.50 | 18.00 | 13.50 | 31.50 | 18.00 | 13.50 | 0.750 |
| Q7o | 10 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 13.50 | 7.00 | 6.50 | 6.75 | 4.00 | 2.75 | 0.688 |
| J9s | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 10.75 | 6.50 | 4.25 | 10.75 | 6.50 | 4.25 | 0.654 |
| ATs | 11 | 10 | 6 | 4 | 86.50 | 52.00 | 34.50 | 61.13 | 37.00 | 24.13 | 0.652 |
| T2o | 16 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 8.25 | 5.00 | 3.25 | 8.25 | 5.00 | 3.25 | 0.650 |
| 85o | 15 | 8 | 1 | 7 | 13.00 | 9.50 | 3.50 | 13.00 | 8.00 | 5.00 | 0.625 |
| KTo | 15 | 15 | 7 | 8 | 66.00 | 41.25 | 24.75 | 66.00 | 41.25 | 24.75 | 0.600 |
| 72o | 13 | 4 | 1 | 3 | 15.00 | 8.25 | 6.75 | 7.50 | 4.75 | 2.75 | 0.579 |
| 98o | 14 | 13 | 5 | 8 | 52.50 | 34.50 | 18.00 | 39.00 | 25.00 | 14.00 | 0.560 |
| KJs | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 14.75 | 9.50 | 5.25 | 14.75 | 9.50 | 5.25 | 0.553 |
| A7s | 5 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 44.25 | 26.50 | 17.75 | 31.00 | 20.00 | 11.00 | 0.550 |
| 55 | 6 | 6 | 2 | 4 | 28.50 | 18.50 | 10.00 | 28.50 | 18.50 | 10.00 | 0.541 |
| Q3s | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 10.75 | 7.00 | 3.75 | 10.75 | 7.00 | 3.75 | 0.536 |
| TT | 5 | 5 | 2 | 3 | 37.00 | 23.50 | 13.50 | 24.75 | 16.50 | 8.25 | 0.500 |
| T2s | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 3.75 | 2.50 | 1.25 | 3.75 | 2.50 | 1.25 | 0.500 |
| J4o | 13 | 6 | 2 | 4 | 22.25 | 13.25 | 9.00 | 12.25 | 8.25 | 4.00 | 0.485 |
| Q7s | 4 | 4 | 1 | 3 | 14.75 | 13.00 | 1.75 | 14.75 | 10.00 | 4.75 | 0.475 |
| T8o | 13 | 7 | 2 | 5 | 10.75 | 8.75 | 2.00 | 10.75 | 7.50 | 3.25 | 0.433 |
| T6o | 11 | 6 | 1 | 5 | 19.25 | 11.50 | 7.75 | 9.63 | 6.75 | 2.88 | 0.426 |
| JJ | 12 | 12 | 7 | 5 | 67.50 | 47.75 | 19.75 | 67.50 | 47.75 | 19.75 | 0.414 |
| 98s | 3 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 18.25 | 12.00 | 6.25 | 9.13 | 6.50 | 2.63 | 0.404 |
| K5s | 7 | 7 | 4 | 3 | 40.50 | 26.50 | 14.00 | 30.63 | 22.00 | 8.63 | 0.392 |
| Q8o | 10 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 11.75 | 8.50 | 3.25 | 11.75 | 8.50 | 3.25 | 0.382 |
| 8 | 8 | 5 | 3 | 51.50 | 36.00 | 15.50 | 43.88 | 32.00 | 11.88 | 0.371 | |
| Q9s | 4 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 9.00 | 7.00 | 2.00 | 6.00 | 4.50 | 1.50 | 0.333 |
| Q2s | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 10.50 | 8.00 | 2.50 | 10.50 | 8.00 | 2.50 | 0.313 |
| QTs | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 8.50 | 6.50 | 2.00 | 8.50 | 6.50 | 2.00 | 0.308 |
| K7o | 9 | 5 | 2 | 3 | 7.75 | 7.50 | 0.25 | 7.75 | 6.00 | 1.75 | 0.292 |
| A5o | 23 | 15 | 5 | 10 | 36.25 | 35.00 | 1.25 | 36.25 | 28.50 | 7.75 | 0.272 |
| Q6s | 4 | 4 | 1 | 3 | 17.75 | 10.50 | 7.25 | 8.88 | 7.00 | 1.88 | 0.268 |
| A3s | 5 | 5 | 2 | 3 | 21.00 | 15.75 | 5.25 | 15.88 | 12.63 | 3.25 | 0.257 |
| T7s | 3 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 6.25 | 6.00 | 0.25 | 6.25 | 5.00 | 1.25 | 0.250 |
| 63o | 17 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 8.00 | 8.50 | -0.50 | 8.00 | 6.50 | 1.50 | 0.231 |
| A6o | 16 | 13 | 5 | 8 | 30.25 | 28.00 | 2.25 | 24.50 | 20.00 | 4.50 | 0.225 |
| 73o | 15 | 7 | 1 | 6 | 5.75 | 5.00 | 0.75 | 5.75 | 4.75 | 1.00 | 0.211 |
| JTo | 15 | 14 | 4 | 10 | 35.50 | 33.50 | 2.00 | 35.50 | 30.00 | 5.50 | 0.183 |
| 22 | 8 | 8 | 3 | 5 | 19.50 | 21.00 | -1.50 | 19.50 | 16.50 | 3.00 | 0.182 |
| Q5s | 7 | 7 | 2 | 5 | 13.00 | 11.50 | 1.50 | 13.00 | 11.50 | 1.50 | 0.130 |
| A7o | 15 | 14 | 5 | 9 | 40.75 | 33.00 | 7.75 | 34.00 | 30.50 | 3.50 | 0.115 |
| J5o | 18 | 5 | 2 | 3 | 7.50 | 6.75 | 0.75 | 7.50 | 6.75 | 0.75 | 0.111 |
| A3o | 16 | 16 | 4 | 12 | 37.75 | 33.50 | 4.25 | 28.63 | 27.00 | 1.63 | 0.060 |
| 96s | 7 | 6 | 2 | 4 | 19.00 | 25.50 | -6.50 | 19.00 | 18.00 | 1.00 | 0.056 |
| Q4o | 16 | 5 | 2 | 3 | 12.75 | 10.50 | 2.25 | 7.38 | 7.00 | 0.38 | 0.054 |
| 74s | 9 | 7 | 1 | 6 | 16.25 | 16.00 | 0.25 | 16.25 | 16.00 | 0.25 | 0.016 |
| K3o | 12 | 5 | 2 | 3 | 18.75 | 15.50 | 3.25 | 10.13 | 10.00 | 0.13 | 0.013 |
| 87o | 25 | 13 | 3 | 10 | 23.50 | 24.00 | -0.50 | 20.25 | 20.00 | 0.25 | 0.013 |
| AJs | 6 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 36.25 | 27.50 | 8.75 | 18.13 | 18.00 | 0.13 | 0.007 |
| A4s | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.000 |
| K6s | 4 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 8.00 | 12.00 | -4.00 | 8.00 | 8.00 | 0.00 | 0.000 |
| K6o | 15 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 2.50 | 2.50 | 0.00 | 2.50 | 2.50 | 0.00 | 0.000 |
| Q5o | 7 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.000 |
| 72s | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.000 |
| K9s | 7 | 7 | 2 | 5 | 20.25 | 20.50 | -0.25 | 20.25 | 20.50 | -0.25 | -0.012 |
| 66 | 16 | 5 | 2 | 3 | 11.50 | 13.00 | -1.50 | 11.50 | 12.00 | -0.50 | -0.042 |
| 42o | 12 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 5.00 | 4.25 | 0.75 | 2.50 | 2.75 | -0.25 | -0.091 |
| T6s | 6 | 6 | 1 | 5 | 11.25 | 13.50 | -2.25 | 11.25 | 12.50 | -1.25 | -0.100 |
| 76o | 10 | 9 | 2 | 7 | 20.50 | 23.00 | -2.50 | 20.50 | 23.00 | -2.50 | -0.109 |
| T4s | 6 | 6 | 1 | 5 | 9.75 | 14.00 | -4.25 | 9.75 | 11.00 | -1.25 | -0.114 |
| 52o | 14 | 5 | 1 | 4 | 3.50 | 4.00 | -0.50 | 3.50 | 4.00 | -0.50 | -0.125 |
| A5s | 6 | 6 | 3 | 3 | 10.00 | 13.00 | -3.00 | 10.00 | 11.50 | -1.50 | -0.130 |
| 86o | 16 | 6 | 1 | 5 | 4.75 | 6.00 | -1.25 | 4.75 | 5.50 | -0.75 | -0.136 |
| J7o | 7 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 7.75 | 8.00 | -0.25 | 3.88 | 4.50 | -0.63 | -0.139 |
| QTo | 9 | 9 | 2 | 7 | 9.25 | 11.25 | -2.00 | 9.25 | 10.75 | -1.50 | -0.140 |
| AKo | 18 | 18 | 7 | 11 | 66.25 | 76.50 | -10.25 | 56.00 | 67.50 | -11.50 | -0.170 |
| Q9o | 14 | 6 | 2 | 4 | 12.25 | 21.50 | -9.25 | 12.25 | 15.00 | -2.75 | -0.183 |
| 44 | 4 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 10.50 | 10.50 | 0.00 | 6.63 | 8.50 | -1.88 | -0.221 |
| 86s | 4 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 3.50 | 4.50 | -1.00 | 3.50 | 4.50 | -1.00 | -0.222 |
| A4o | 20 | 19 | 5 | 14 | 27.00 | 39.75 | -12.75 | 27.00 | 34.75 | -7.75 | -0.223 |
| A9o | 13 | 12 | 3 | 9 | 21.50 | 31.25 | -9.75 | 21.50 | 28.25 | -6.75 | -0.239 |
| AJo | 22 | 19 | 6 | 13 | 47.50 | 77.00 | -29.50 | 47.50 | 66.00 | -18.50 | -0.280 |
| K8s | 4 | 4 | 1 | 3 | 7.75 | 11.00 | -3.25 | 7.75 | 11.00 | -3.25 | -0.295 |
| A8o | 22 | 15 | 5 | 10 | 32.75 | 45.00 | -12.25 | 30.50 | 43.50 | -13.00 | -0.299 |
| K5o | 19 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 2.25 | 3.50 | -1.25 | 2.25 | 3.25 | -1.00 | -0.308 |
| 54o | 17 | 11 | 2 | 9 | 13.50 | 22.75 | -9.25 | 12.00 | 17.38 | -5.38 | -0.309 |
| AQo | 13 | 13 | 3 | 10 | 30.50 | 61.75 | -31.25 | 30.50 | 46.38 | -15.88 | -0.342 |
| J2s | 3 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 11.50 | 11.50 | 0.00 | 5.75 | 9.00 | -3.25 | -0.361 |
| J6o | 12 | 6 | 1 | 5 | 5.25 | 9.00 | -3.75 | 5.25 | 8.25 | -3.00 | -0.364 |
| K7s | 5 | 5 | 1 | 4 | 15.25 | 34.75 | -19.50 | 15.25 | 25.13 | -9.88 | -0.393 |
| J9o | 20 | 15 | 4 | 11 | 17.25 | 30.00 | -12.75 | 12.38 | 20.50 | -8.13 | -0.396 |
| 75o | 32 | 8 | 2 | 6 | 7.00 | 10.50 | -3.50 | 5.00 | 8.50 | -3.50 | -0.412 |
| KQo | 20 | 20 | 5 | 15 | 41.25 | 69.00 | -27.75 | 34.13 | 59.50 | -25.38 | -0.426 |
| T3s | 5 | 4 | 1 | 3 | 5.50 | 10.00 | -4.50 | 5.50 | 10.00 | -4.50 | -0.450 |
| ATo | 8 | 8 | 2 | 6 | 29.00 | 38.50 | -9.50 | 14.50 | 27.00 | -12.50 | -0.463 |
| AKs | 4 | 4 | 1 | 3 | 7.50 | 17.50 | -10.00 | 7.50 | 14.50 | -7.00 | -0.483 |
| 97s | 5 | 5 | 1 | 4 | 8.00 | 16.00 | -8.00 | 8.00 | 15.50 | -7.50 | -0.484 |
| T7o | 19 | 6 | 1 | 5 | 5.00 | 11.75 | -6.75 | 5.00 | 9.75 | -4.75 | -0.487 |
| T9o | 13 | 10 | 2 | 8 | 12.00 | 31.00 | -19.00 | 12.00 | 24.50 | -12.50 | -0.510 |
| 73s | 10 | 7 | 1 | 6 | 5.50 | 8.50 | -3.00 | 2.75 | 5.75 | -3.00 | -0.522 |
| 54s | 5 | 4 | 1 | 3 | 5.00 | 7.50 | -2.50 | 2.50 | 5.50 | -3.00 | -0.545 |
| 77 | 7 | 7 | 1 | 6 | 16.00 | 23.50 | -7.50 | 8.00 | 18.50 | -10.50 | -0.568 |
| QJo | 13 | 13 | 3 | 10 | 19.50 | 49.00 | -29.50 | 19.50 | 45.50 | -26.00 | -0.571 |
| AQs | 6 | 6 | 2 | 4 | 10.25 | 25.25 | -15.00 | 10.25 | 25.25 | -15.00 | -0.594 |
| A2o | 12 | 12 | 2 | 10 | 10.50 | 30.00 | -19.50 | 10.50 | 28.00 | -17.50 | -0.625 |
| Q2o | 15 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 1.50 | 3.50 | -2.00 | 0.75 | 2.00 | -1.25 | -0.625 |
| Q8s | 7 | 7 | 2 | 5 | 6.50 | 18.00 | -11.50 | 6.50 | 18.00 | -11.50 | -0.639 |
| KQs | 4 | 4 | 1 | 3 | 7.25 | 15.50 | -8.25 | 3.63 | 10.50 | -6.88 | -0.655 |
| 65o | 8 | 5 | 1 | 4 | 2.00 | 6.00 | -4.00 | 2.00 | 6.00 | -4.00 | -0.667 |
| 99 | 8 | 8 | 1 | 7 | 4.00 | 34.50 | -30.50 | 4.00 | 25.00 | -21.00 | -0.840 |
| KJo | 6 | 6 | 1 | 5 | 2.00 | 13.50 | -11.50 | 2.00 | 13.50 | -11.50 | -0.852 |
| 84s | 12 | 4 | 1 | 3 | 0.25 | 4.75 | -4.50 | 0.25 | 4.25 | -4.00 | -0.941 |
| K9o | 14 | 11 | 0 | 11 | 0.00 | 22.50 | -22.50 | 0.00 | 22.50 | -22.50 | -1.000 |
| K8o | 3 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0.00 | 0.50 | -0.50 | 0.00 | 0.50 | -0.50 | -1.000 |
| K4o | 9 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 0.00 | 4.00 | -4.00 | 0.00 | 3.00 | -3.00 | -1.000 |
| K3s | 3 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 0.00 | 4.00 | -4.00 | 0.00 | 3.50 | -3.50 | -1.000 |
| K2s | 4 | 4 | 0 | 4 | 0.00 | 7.00 | -7.00 | 0.00 | 6.50 | -6.50 | -1.000 |
| K2o | 11 | 4 | 0 | 4 | 0.00 | 3.00 | -3.00 | 0.00 | 3.00 | -3.00 | -1.000 |
| Q4s | 3 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 0.00 | 9.00 | -9.00 | 0.00 | 9.00 | -9.00 | -1.000 |
| J8s | 4 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 0.00 | 4.50 | -4.50 | 0.00 | 4.50 | -4.50 | -1.000 |
| J7s | 4 | 4 | 0 | 4 | 0.00 | 3.00 | -3.00 | 0.00 | 3.00 | -3.00 | -1.000 |
| J6s | 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0.00 | 0.50 | -0.50 | 0.00 | 0.50 | -0.50 | -1.000 |
| J4s | 3 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0.00 | 1.00 | -1.00 | 0.00 | 1.00 | -1.00 | -1.000 |
| J3s | 6 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 0.00 | 1.25 | -1.25 | 0.00 | 1.25 | -1.25 | -1.000 |
| J3o | 23 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 0.00 | 7.25 | -7.25 | 0.00 | 3.75 | -3.75 | -1.000 |
| J2o | 13 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 0.00 | 1.25 | -1.25 | 0.00 | 1.25 | -1.25 | -1.000 |
| T9s | 3 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 0.00 | 6.50 | -6.50 | 0.00 | 6.50 | -6.50 | -1.000 |
| T8s | 7 | 6 | 0 | 6 | 0.00 | 15.50 | -15.50 | 0.00 | 10.50 | -10.50 | -1.000 |
| T5s | 4 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 0.00 | 6.50 | -6.50 | 0.00 | 6.50 | -6.50 | -1.000 |
| T4o | 14 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0.00 | 1.00 | -1.00 | 0.00 | 0.50 | -0.50 | -1.000 |
| T3o | 15 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0.00 | 1.00 | -1.00 | 0.00 | 0.50 | -0.50 | -1.000 |
| 97o | 10 | 5 | 0 | 5 | 0.00 | 6.50 | -6.50 | 0.00 | 6.50 | -6.50 | -1.000 |
| 96o | 15 | 4 | 0 | 4 | 0.00 | 3.75 | -3.75 | 0.00 | 3.50 | -3.50 | -1.000 |
| 95s | 6 | 4 | 0 | 4 | 0.00 | 6.00 | -6.00 | 0.00 | 6.00 | -6.00 | -1.000 |
| 95o | 18 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0.00 | 0.50 | -0.50 | 0.00 | 0.50 | -0.50 | -1.000 |
| 94o | 13 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 0.00 | 1.25 | -1.25 | 0.00 | 1.25 | -1.25 | -1.000 |
| 93s | 7 | 4 | 0 | 4 | 0.00 | 6.25 | -6.25 | 0.00 | 6.25 | -6.25 | -1.000 |
| 93o | 3 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0.00 | 2.50 | -2.50 | 0.00 | 2.50 | -2.50 | -1.000 |
| 92s | 13 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 0.00 | 6.50 | -6.50 | 0.00 | 6.50 | -6.50 | -1.000 |
| 85s | 3 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0.00 | 1.50 | -1.50 | 0.00 | 1.00 | -1.00 | -1.000 |
| 84o | 13 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 0.00 | 1.50 | -1.50 | 0.00 | 1.50 | -1.50 | -1.000 |
| 83o | 12 | 4 | 0 | 4 | 0.00 | 1.75 | -1.75 | 0.00 | 1.75 | -1.75 | -1.000 |
| 82s | 7 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0.00 | 1.00 | -1.00 | 0.00 | 0.50 | -0.50 | -1.000 |
| 82o | 6 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0.00 | 1.50 | -1.50 | 0.00 | 1.00 | -1.00 | -1.000 |
| 74o | 17 | 6 | 0 | 6 | 0.00 | 3.25 | -3.25 | 0.00 | 3.00 | -3.00 | -1.000 |
| 64s | 3 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0.00 | 1.00 | -1.00 | 0.00 | 1.00 | -1.00 | -1.000 |
| 64o | 14 | 4 | 0 | 4 | 0.00 | 5.50 | -5.50 | 0.00 | 5.00 | -5.00 | -1.000 |
| 63s | 5 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0.00 | 2.00 | -2.00 | 0.00 | 2.00 | -2.00 | -1.000 |
| 62s | 4 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 0.00 | 5.00 | -5.00 | 0.00 | 4.00 | -4.00 | -1.000 |
| 62o | 12 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 0.00 | 9.25 | -9.25 | 0.00 | 5.75 | -5.75 | -1.000 |
| 53s | 5 | 5 | 0 | 5 | 0.00 | 9.50 | -9.50 | 0.00 | 8.00 | -8.00 | -1.000 |
| 53o | 20 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0.00 | 0.50 | -0.50 | 0.00 | 0.50 | -0.50 | -1.000 |
| 52s | 8 | 4 | 0 | 4 | 0.00 | 8.50 | -8.50 | 0.00 | 6.00 | -6.00 | -1.000 |
| 43s | 5 | 4 | 0 | 4 | 0.00 | 5.50 | -5.50 | 0.00 | 3.00 | -3.00 | -1.000 |
| 43o | 14 | 7 | 0 | 7 | 0.00 | 10.25 | -10.25 | 0.00 | 9.25 | -9.25 | -1.000 |
| 32s | 5 | 5 | 0 | 5 | 0.00 | 4.75 | -4.75 | 0.00 | 4.25 | -4.25 | -1.000 |
| 32o | 5 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0.00 | 2.50 | -2.50 | 0.00 | 2.50 | -2.50 | -1.000 |
Looking good. However, you should organize your data in groups along the left column as suited hands, non suited hands, and pairs. May make reading table easier.
Please e-mail me whenever you think the software is ready.
Thanks, Andrew mewhoelse17@yahoo.com
Please e-mail me whenever you think the software is ready. r.stuewe@t-online.de thanks
| 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | |
| AA | 85,3 | 73,4 | 63,9 | 55,9 | 49,2 | 43,6 | 38,8 | 34,7 | 31,1 |
| KK | 82,4 | 68,9 | 58,2 | 49,8 | 43,0 | 37,5 | 32,9 | 29,2 | 26,1 |
| 79,9 | 64,9 | 53,5 | 44,7 | 37,9 | 32,5 | 28,3 | 24,9 | 22,2 | |
| JJ | 77,5 | 61,2 | 49,2 | 40,3 | 33,6 | 28,5 | 24,6 | 21,6 | 19,3 |
| TT | 75,1 | 57,7 | 45,2 | 36,4 | 30,0 | 25,3 | 21,8 | 19,2 | 17,2 |
| 99 | 72,1 | 53,5 | 41,1 | 32,6 | 26,6 | 22,4 | 19,4 | 17,2 | 15,6 |
| 88 | 69,1 | 49,9 | 37,5 | 29,4 | 24,0 | 20,3 | 17,7 | 15,8 | 14,4 |
| 77 | 66,2 | 46,4 | 34,4 | 26,8 | 21,9 | 18,6 | 16,4 | 14,8 | 13,7 |
| 66 | 63,3 | 43,2 | 31,5 | 24,5 | 20,1 | 17,3 | 15,4 | 14,0 | 13,1 |
| 55 | 60,3 | 40,1 | 28,8 | 22,4 | 18,5 | 16,0 | 14,4 | 13,2 | 12,3 |
| 44 | 57,0 | 36,8 | 26,3 | 20,6 | 17,3 | 15,2 | 13,9 | 12,9 | 12,1 |
| 33 | 53,7 | 33,5 | 23,9 | 19,0 | 16,2 | 14,6 | 13,5 | 12,6 | 12,0 |
| 22 | 50,3 | 30,7 | 22,0 | 17,8 | 15,5 | 14,2 | 13,3 | 12,5 | 12,0 |
Natedogg did it – You did it and now I can do it too – making these goodlooking messages – to be honest it took me quite some time to figure out how you did it – GREAT !!!
You might wanna chek this site out: http://www.gocee.com/poker/HE_Value.htm
I have rearranged the data from the Brecher-site – to the better – if I may say so my self ;-)
Good luck ! with your projcet – I’m all in !
PS What is the excact definition of EV ?
EV, as I understand it means Expected Value. Representing the value of the bet. If you have an expected value of $1.5 then you can expect to gain $1.5 for every dollar bet.
Praphrased from Sklansky's Theory of Poker: If someone bets you $2 to every $1 on the flip of a fair coin you have an positive expectation of .50
Lets do the math: Assume you flip the coin twice you win once he wins once.
Bet 1. You wager $1 he wagers $2, you win, you receive back $3.
Bet 2. You wager $1 he wagers $2, you loose, you receive $0.
So you have received a total of $3, you have wagered a total of $2, your profit is $1.00. Therefore your EV is $.50 for every $1.00 wager.
Lets look at the table for the AA pair: In won $37.50 on $17.00 bets for a profit of $20.50. $20.50 / $17.00 = $1.206
Therefore for every $1.00 wagered you expect to profit $1.206.
Note the above represents a very small sample of actual results, not the true value of AA.
I have been wondering when someone would get around to this type of software,great job.Im willing to test it for you,do you have an email to contact?
How long have your been working on the code? I have been fooling around for two or three months o my app and am no where near beta testing.
FYI, I am a relatively new programmer and I have been speding more time on side (for school) projects than it, but still.....
Looks great to me. I'll volunteer to be a tester.
I have also developed a tool to analyze paradise hand history. The result also turned out that AK is a big loser based on my 2000 hand history. Pocket pair are good winners.
i play paradise about 30 hours a week, sometimes more and would love to try out your program. email me at the above address.
I also play at Paradise, about 20 hours a week, mainly 2/4 and 3/6 games, sometimes 5/10.
Plz email me, if i can test it.
Regards.
I am also working on similar software. I would be interested an exchange of information. It might be helpfull for both of us.
Later,Justin
Posted by: the pokerplayer formerly known as Jack
Posted on: Thursday, 22 March 2001, at 9:29 a.m.
Posted by: Jodder
Posted on: Thursday, 22 March 2001, at 4:09 p.m.
Posted by: kinnaye (kinnaye@thepokerforum.com)
Posted on: Friday, 23 March 2001, at 3:46 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Friday, 23 March 2001, at 5:51 a.m.
Posted by: Magilla (pbrown@marketlink.hu)
Posted on: Friday, 23 March 2001, at 9:29 a.m.
Posted by: K.S.
Posted on: Friday, 23 March 2001, at 10:09 a.m.
Posted by: charlie (bbptc@ix.netcom.com)
Posted on: Friday, 23 March 2001, at 2:29 p.m.
Posted by: Remco (remcoxyii@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 23 March 2001, at 4:05 p.m.
Posted by: Justin M (crazyali@msn.com)
Posted on: Monday, 26 March 2001, at 10:40 p.m.
OK, I know I'm not a great poker player, maybe not even good... I just started about a month ago, and am trying to put in time, learn how to play, get some experience, etc. I've read Winning LL Hold 'Em by Lee Jones, but then abandoned that when my copy of HPFAP came in, and I've read that, and re-read sections several times... I got sick of getting sucked out on in the .50/1 games, so I decided what the heck, I'll try 3/6 and 2/4 for a little while (so feel free to look for me on the PP tables if you want some easy money! lol). Here's a hand, did I play this poorly? I was on BB so I called for the possibility of flush draw, then flopped top pair, which I ended up folding due to weak kicker... This is the second time I've folded a top pair and then been shown a winning lower pair... I don't know if I should just accept this, or if I'm playing these hands poorly, and I love the analysis you guys do on hands here, so rip into it! :) I'm posting results right now, even if it might bias thinking on the play... The funny thing is, not more than 5 hands previous to this, the roof was dealt the exact same hand he was below, and I won on the river when an A flopped and hit my AQ... So I think that's why he ultimately showed me his hand here.
Table "Rarotonga" (real money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Seat 6: MattWright ($131 in chips)
Seat 7: the roof ($33 in chips)
Seat 10: ken.kv ($90 in chips)
Phideaux: Post Small Blind ($1)
MattWright: Post Big Blind ($2)
Dealt to MattWright [ 4d ]
Dealt to MattWright [ Kd ]
the roof: Raise ($4)
2 players fold
ken.kv : Call ($4)
4 players fold
MattWright: Call ($2)
*** FLOP *** : [ 5s 9d Kc ]
MattWright: Check
the roof: Bet ($2)
ken.kv : Call ($2)
MattWright: Call ($2)
*** TURN *** : [ 5s 9d Kc ] [ 7c ]
MattWright: Check
the roof: Bet ($4)
ken.kv : Fold
MattWright: Call ($4)
*** RIVER *** : [ 5s 9d Kc 7c ] [ Ac ]
MattWright: Check
the roof: Bet ($4)
MattWright: Fold
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $26 | Rake: $1
Board: [ 5s 9d Kc 7c Ac ]
MattWright lost $10 (folded) [ 4d Kd ] (a pair of kings)
the roof bet $14, collected $30, net +$16 (showed hand) [ Qh Qs ] (a pair of queens)
How do I know when to toss these weak kickers? Did I go too far with this hand by calling the turn? Should I have folded on the flop? Raised on the flop to determine where my kings stood in the game? Man, I make so many bad decisions, I can only hope I'm learning some stuff through it all. :)
It's a general truth in limit holdem that you should rarely fold hands on the river. This is because the pot odds you are getting generally justify a call. You should have called the river here given that you've called this far. The hand is difficult to get away from at any point in the hand and thats why I almost always dump KX and AX in the blind to raises, suited or not, unless there are a number of players in the pot. You could also consider dumping it on the turn. If you are going to call down I think you should checkraise the flop and bet out instead. You can then fold to a raise on the flop/turn or to a bet on the river if it is still 3-handed.
Chris
You need more callers to justify a call out of the blinds with K5s, unless your post-flop play is excellent (I've seen a few excellent post-flop players who rarely folds a blind - and are successful with this).
Three-way, an excellent player should be able to steal the pot sometimes and not lose to much when these attempts fail.
I think you should raise the flop here. You have enough outs/semi-outs to call an unlikely re-raise (three 5's, possibly two kings (vs AA) and all diamonds). This is not likely to happen here.
I'm not so sure that I disagree too much with your river-fold. Calling all way with top pair/no kicker (important detail here, I think, is that the top pair is not aces - they are much more likely beaten vs a pre-flop raisor) is fairly weak, but not terrible either. When the ace falls, your opponent must either be a maniac (this you probably know better - and I presume this one wasn't) or hold TT, JJ & QQ. These hands, I'd also often bet the flop and the turn with unless raised, with a board like this. When the A falls on the river, he tries a bluff obviously, but there are still very few hands he would play like this all way, that wouldn't have yours beat.
lars
I would've folded preflop. After roof bet and ken called, I'd have folded on the flop. If I made it to the river, I'd have called. By tht point, you're getting something like 8:1 on the call, and it usually is worth making the call for that reason alone. Expect to lose to an A or a better K, but make the call.
Now, if there's a bet and a call in front of you on the river, big pot odds isn't enough to justify a call. You have to imagine what hands the caller could possibly have to make the call, and how often you can beat them both. Against 1 opponent and a reasonably big pot, the call on the river is often best.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
If you have been learning from Jones' book, you should've realized that calling preflop with the K4s was bad for 3 reasons (in order): 1. Out of position 2. Not enough limpers 3. Early position raise.
I think most important factor was your awful position. I would go as far as saying, you would have won the hand if you were on the button instead. He may or may not have bet the flop, then you bet/raise (not likely will you be re-raised), you bet the turn (if you still haven't won the pot), then check the river. Showdown K's win.
In your scenario, imagine you called the river, you would have invested $14 to see the hand down, all the while being the caller not the bettor. If you were on the buton, it would have cost you only $12 to see it down, and you would have given the other guy at leat 2 chances to fold and you win the pot right there. I think way too many players read from books that hands like AJs are profitable (with the right field and right postion) and think they can get away with playing them everytime. And why not? I hope the above case explains why?
All that above just demonstrates the power of position. It was inapropriate to defend that blind hand with an up front raise and one caller in the first place.
I am at college now in Washington, DC which makes my usual twice monthly trips to Atlantic City a little more difficult. It is for this reason that I am considering playing on the internet. My usual casino limit is 3-6 or 5-10, but my question is how much of a bankroll do you need to sustain yourself playing maybe a couple of hours a day at these limits (assuming you are a winning player) on Paradise. I have about an $1100 bankroll and would not be too keen on sending all of it to Costa Rica. Should I send like 200 or 300 and play at .5-1 or 1-2, or is it very likely I will go broke playing often at these limits with internet speed? Any suggestions or advice on how to get started would be greatly appreciated; how do you adjust your play on the Internet (is ultratight really correct) and any other practical tips. Thanks a lot in advance.
Jeff
If you were averaging about a bet an hour in the casinos then $1100 is enough for $3-6, probably even two tables. You'll need more for $5-10.
Playing ultratight isn't the best strategy, at least outside of early position, but at 3-6/5-10 you'll almost certainly win a little something.
The best tip I can think of is to become proficient at short-handed play.
The $3-6 games are so easy that I wouldn't bother with anything lower unless you think you need more experience.
I might not be the best person to give advice regarding online/B&M issues, since the Internet is the only place I have ever played... But here's my advice anyway:
I have read a lot of posts where players starting to play on the Internet don't do as well as they are used to. Many people seem to perceive a substantial difference between online and offline(?) games. For some, it might have to do with relying on tells to a large extent in real life. I have also come to understand that the games online are generally tougher than offline, and maybe also "different" in some ways. Specifically it's my understanding that e.g. $3-$6 generally is much tougher online than offline. Maybe an effect of the super-low limits available online. $3-$6 is higher in the limit "hierarchy" online than offline.
These are all second hand knowledge, coming from this forum. My advice to you, though, is: Don't take for granted that your usual play will do as well online as you're used to offline. Especially not at the same limits. It's better to be safe than sorry. Start slowly until you have confidence that you have the online environment under control. Maybe you'll move up fast, but maybe you need time at lower limits to adapt. You don't have much to lose by starting from below, though, right? It could be much costlier the other way around...
Now to "online strategy". If you disregard the more-or-less absence of tells online, the strategy for online games should not differ from offline games, right? Just don't take you're opponents playing styles for granted. Analyse the games online and adapt as you would offline. E.g. there might be more raising than you're used to. Just adapt.
As to the question of bankroll: How often you play and at what speed doesn't matter when it comes to your risk of going broke. What will come will only come faster. Maybe these factors influence you psychology, though, and thereby your game, and thereby your bankroll risk, but not in itself.
I have only $0.5-$1 and a little $1-$2 experience, and at $0.5-$1 I feel quite safe with $200, but like to keep at least $300 (I'm kinda cautious...). This comes from experience, not calculations...
As a final warning, I would like to point out, though, that I AM just a beginner, but nonetheless a winning player, and a serious student. I would hope that the experts would be kind enough to correct any erroneous advice I give...
Good luck and see you at the table!
-JDS
There is a great live 5/10 Stud game that runs in Dupont Circle park from about four in the afternoon to whenever, every day of the week. I know it sounds funky, but its mostly legit people and a great game. I've played in it 10 to 12 times while on business trips and it's paid for a lot of new clothes, etc.! LOL
Email me above if you want more details.
I must disagree with some of the previous posts. particularily the what will happen will happen regardless of speed. this sounds good, but isnt exactly accurate. As you may or may not know the amount of CC fraud on these sites is TREMENDOUS. Therefore the amount of bad debt is much higher than another typical business. Therefore, it is in the best interest of an internet site to not have too much money in one particular players account for obvious reasons. therefore it is quite common after having built a bankroll, and continuing to play EXACTLY the same way to start having the same hands/plays that have won for 2-3 weeks start losing to either monster hands or sets flopping etc. Think AA getting called by a-2 with a flop of 6-2-2. OF course some people on here insist that they play profitably for long periods of time, but being 100% honest i crush 80-90 of the ring games that i play up to 10-20
Is it the poker site or the CC processor (www.firecash.com et al) that takes the risks when it comes to CC fraud?
Is it the poker site that takes the risks when it comes to CC fraud? Firecash does its best to prevent the bad charges, but in the end its the poker site that must pay for them.
Posted by: JDS
Posted on: Friday, 23 March 2001, at 6:27 p.m.
Posted by: Max (marl@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 24 March 2001, at 8:30 p.m.
Game #47148132 - $5/$10 Hold'em - 2001/01/25-14:48:22 (CST)
Table "Palau" (real money) -- Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: Putz! ($282 in chips)
Seat 2: plowboy ($236 in chips)
Seat 3: AL025 ($294 in chips)
Seat 5: wonderboy ($183 in chips)
Seat 6: J.Thrash ($195 in chips)
Seat 7: natedogg ($200 in chips)
Seat 8: cool-euell ($497 in chips)
Seat 9: hotdogman ($359 in chips)
Seat 10: sandlot ($388 in chips)
J.Thrash: Post Small Blind ($2)
natedogg: Post Big Blind ($5)
Dealing...
Dealt to natedogg [ 8c ]
Dealt to natedogg [ Qd ]
cool-euell: Fold
hotdogman: Fold
sandlot : Fold
Putz! : Call ($5)
plowboy : Fold
AL025 : Call ($5)
wonderboy: Fold
J.Thrash: Call ($3)
natedogg: Check
*** FLOP *** : [ Ah 5h 4s ]
J.Thrash: Check
natedogg: Check
Putz! : Check
AL025 : Check
*** TURN *** : [ Ah 5h 4s ] [ 8s ]
J.Thrash: Check
natedogg: Bet ($10)
Putz! : Call ($10)
AL025 : Call ($10)
J.Thrash: Fold
*** RIVER *** : [ Ah 5h 4s 8s ] [ Jd ]
natedogg: Check
Putz! : Bet ($10)
AL025 : Fold
natedogg: Call ($10)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $67 | Rake: $3
Board: [ Ah 5h 4s 8s Jd ]
Putz! bet $25, collected $67, net +$42 (showed hand) [Ac As ] (three of a kind, aces)
plowboy didn't bet (folded)
AL025 lost $15 (folded)
WendySue didn't bet
wonderboy didn't bet (folded)
J.Thrash lost $5 (folded)
natedogg lost $25 [ 8c Qd ] (a pair of eights)
cool-euell didn't bet (folded)
hotdogman didn't bet (folded)
sandlot didn't bet (folded)
Anybody who would not have at least bet the turn? Anybody who thinks I should have folded the river?
natedogg
More to the point what was putz playing at!
The turn bet is mandatory. The river is a bitch, but you can't fold unless this Putz! guy is totally passive.
Chris
I agree with ChrisVWH, that if you decide to follow up on this hand, some making a bet is neccesary on the turn.
But, I probably wouldn't lead at the betting. There's only $20 in the pot at this point. First of all with two callers out there I bet there are at least 3 overcards to your 8's. An individual caller with two overcards gets 3:1 on a call, figuring implied odds since they won't miss a bet (they have position on you) they are making a slightly profitable call. I'd rather not make a bet at a teeny pot when my opponent is getting odds to call (variance thing again). That theoretical small +EV I can expect with a bet can be easily eraticated by tricky post flop players. At Paradise there are much better spots to get your money in.
If I am sure my 8's are good, I'll check the turn, praying to check raise. Now I've doubled the cost my opponent must pay, destroyed his +EV and made the hand more profitable for myself. If I'm re-raised, it's an easy muck, and if it's checked all the way through, I haven't given up much, it's a $20 pot on the river. The check raise may even push Ax off the hand (yes!).
Just my opinion, what do you think?
It was obvious in this tricky land of online that someone had AT LEAST a weak ace and didnt want to bet, or that a tricky player has a monster waiting to pounce on the first fool who tries to BUY it. It is so unlikely at that level that noone has an ace in the hand, or a pocket pair that is a set now or beats your 8's that I would never have bet.
There is no difference when that 8 hits than to a board where an 8 or Q didnt hit....as far as YOUR hand is concerned. A88 maybe you bet and get SMASHED, QQx you bet, but not here.
If it has been a very passive weak table and you really have a solid belief you are good sure, but I aint seen THAT kind of game on PP, only live at Foxwoods.
Man oh Man do these people SUCK, but the suckouts are still alive and well. Maybe Ill see you on the 3-6 or 5-10 tables, 1-2 is starting to get on my nerves. I put in $50 on Sat evening, Im at $500 now but it's playing havoc with my sanity in 1-2land.
Thanks for the posts Nate
CJ,
Hi, good post by nate and you too. I do not know if Mr. Putz is any good, but in these games any kind of bet into that exact flop will cause everyone to fold (ok with a so-so hand, but a disaster for AA) so I think he was the tricky *player* here. What else can he do but check the flop? You are right, the check around means that you better watch out for a monster.
I have stopped being so nice online: When a jerk shows AA on the flop of Axy, and he bets and everyone folds, and he whines, I now might tell him how clever his bet was. They cannot tell if I am serious or sarcastic. These people are too stupid to learn anyway, I am happy (for me) to report, so why be nice.
I played the best and worst stud hands of my life this week: On the first, I folded a big pot for very dubious reasons and could kick myself -- I remind myself of Izmet's words "folding is a disease" when I think about it. On the second hand, with (AA)Q, and a very tight group, and everyone folded to me right before the bring-in, I slowplayed and slowplayed and slowplayed as my AA turned into AAA and then AAAA. The pot got huge on 6th and 7th with raises and reraises, since the guy simply could not believe I had anything. And talk about strange hands: I was in a pot with (xJ)JJy, one guy had 4 Q's, one guy had AAA. I ducked for cover on 5th street, since the 3 Q's were showing, and two of the aces, and a war broke out! Lucky for me I did not get my 4th J on 5th street before folding.
Good luck, and I will stay away from you online, I have seen you play. (Although I play virtually only stud now).
Mark
I'm lovin it here at 4knights.... I came in with an initial investment of 88 bucks (horrible size for this limit, i know) and have built it up to 230.. I know I know..this is in the short run... But hey...at this site..there are not as many suckouts as people make out, and when you do hit a hand... BOY do you get paid off...
Trying to play tight, but I'm playing short handed right now..
For all the network guys out there.. I'm taking the CCNA test tommorrow, wish me luck!!!!
Pogue
I wish to have your comments about this on-line poker sites:
-Planet poker
- Paradise poker
- Highlandsclub
- Ultimatebet
-Pokerspot
- Others
My thought about these sites: Planetpoker gave me a really bad beat losing with my quads of 3s vs a quads of 8s (november 1999) If i lived in california now i would be rich for a jackpot...
Paradise seems to be the best site but I noted in these posts that anyone has had a streak of good hands followed by a bad run of cards (this happens to me indeed)
Highlands and pokerspot have had great problems about cash out and similar problems
Other sites???
Marco
Unfortunately for the poker playing public, the currently available internet poker rooms are all scams.
I do not really know why I feel compelled to respond to Mr. anonymous, other than it is such an honor to correspond with a world renowned author. He has written so many “New York Times Best Seller” books and children stories, what a treat. Oh, I especially liked reading Humpty Dumpty when I was five years old.
Anyway, I find it interesting how Mr. anonymous categorically accuses all Internet poker rooms of being frauds. I have been playing at Paradise since the middle of last year and Planet Poker since before that time.
I find aspects of Internet poker somewhat more difficult than live games. Not being able to see my opponent(s) is at, or near, the top of my list of things that make Internet poker more difficult. However, over time, I have adapted to this lack of information and I have learned to play a more technical game in order to compensate for my lack of ability to make intuitive decisions based upon catching a “tell.”
Do you know what I mean by a “tell” Mr. anonymous? A “tell” is like… well like when someone always whistles to themselves if they are bluffing. A “tell” is when someone tries to intimidate me with their most confident stare when they just check raised with a hand that should never have been in this pot in the first place.
To net out my position on all Internet poker rooms being frauds, if Paradise or Planet are cheating me then they are doing a very poor job because I make good money at these sites.
Sincerely, William Seabrook
I play all the sites you have mentioned above.Cashouts -by far highlands is best -overnight delivery -to my door in less than 48 hrs.Next to them is paradise 4- days usually and then planet 4-7 days.Worst obviously is pokerspot -if we get paid -it takes 10-20 business days to arrive (thats almost a month) ( and you are hoping it doesnt bounce.Best software -by far is paradise followed by pokerspot.Worst is planet and highlands -their software can drive you nuts sometimes.I will mention that the software for Ultimatebet is the only one I have seen that may even be faster than paradise.They dont play for real money yet but may be a force online.Best customer service -By far -Highlands.No site compares.They have an oncall room host which comes to the table at your beckon call.When you email support you are answered within 10 mins.As well they have a phone number to reach them anytime.Paradise is probably next best -they respond very promptly to all emails.Planet is also not far behind in responding promptly.Worst is pokerspot.They sometimes take days in responding to emails however yesterday they gave me a bonus $65 apologizing for the delays.Maybe they are trying to improve?-time will tell.Best promotions -again by far is highlands.they have a $45000 bad beat jackpot and every month have a 5000 freeroll for the top 100 players (hands played).Pokerspot is next with their freebie tourneys followed by Planet and Paradise.(they have big money giveaways about every 6 months).Best tourneys -by far pokerspot -they hold tourneys holding up to 200 players and provide buyin tourneys and freerolls.Paradise is next with their 1 table tourneys and planet is just starting to play tourneys at their site.Highlands is next with their weekly $100 buyin tourney and their monthly freeroll.In closing I think paradise is still probably best overall (because of the software)followed very closely by highlands then planet then pokerspot.With the great promos and customer service at highlands ,if they got the same software as paradise they would be the best online.I will say that I have never had a problem money wise with paradise,planet or highlands -all 3 very secure.Pokerspot has owed me my credit card cashout for around 4-5 months but have now said they will pay me in installments.Furthermore they let me cash out 1500 2 days ago and said a check will arrive within 10-20 business days.I will soon see.If pokerspot has gotten their money squared away and improves their customer service then they will no doubt be one of the frontrunners as well in online poker.
What about 4knightspoker? Anyone played there? The software looks different to the Planet software but I'm not sure if it's any better or what. How about the games? Easy/hard?
Chris
I just noticed that planet and 4knights have the same descriptions of their games, word for word. Whats up with that?
I am from Canada and 4knights will not let canadians play.Also heard that 4 knights and poker.com are the same.I havent heard too many good things about poker.com
n/t
They hope to start real money games at the end of this month. Let's hope they make it!
Another thing: anyone else than me that does not like the chat censorship at TruePoker? I think that that kind of thing is really rude. Ruder than the language that they are trying to censor.
What I can't stand is that you have to click on your cards to look at them every hand (and anytime during the hand you want to see them). I know it might be a tell when you see someone looking at their cards, but is that small feature worth the pain in the ass?
Well... it's true poker, right? I guess the best thing to do is to pay enough attention that you only have to look once. Or take notes.
His observations are true and solid from my standpoint.
I would just add that as between Planet and Paradise, there is little doubt that Planet serves up the softer games. So, if you can put up with the slow speed (although you clearly still get more hands dealt per hour than in live play), Planet is the place to play (for me at least).
Thanks of your ansers, especially BOB L' one.
A bottom line: Why most people have chosen Paradise? I think that this fact for the 90% is due to their excellent graphics!
Marco
In real casinos, I've seen players take a seat when a new game of HE or Omaha is forming. First thing the dealer does is deal for the button. In some clubs, the button is in the 10 seat in all new games. What the player does is only play their free hands (before the big blind reaches them), and then quit. They are usually playing ultra-tight, and just looking for a "free" opportunity to play AA or KK (or similiar hand in Omaha). If they are forced to take a blind on the first hand, they will quit immediately. If the room doesn't let them get away with something quite that blatant, they play one round only, then quit.
I've yet to be present when a new game is just starting on Paradise (excluding tourneys, where this angle clearly doesn't apply). How do they place the button for a new game, and is it possible for someone to just continuously play "free" hands and never post a blind?
BTW, I don't want to do this, but I do want to be on the lookout for it, and report violators to the site. If you feel posting a reply might serve to inform the anglers more so than help us fighting them, please send me a private email instead.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Evening all.
Yes Greg, this happens at Paradise. There are times when all players are disconnected for say 30 secs by Paradise for various reasons (upgrading/updating etc).
A player can then with ease quickly grab a seat at one or both $20/40 tables, "preferably" sit down in the top Right Corner (sometimes they move the button chip one step, but usually not), get dealer position and eight free hands. I don't know if the chip is moved randomly, but it seems to me it always started up in either of the two seat in the top right corner. Even if the button chip is moved randomly, they can just choose to not post. It's far easier to get away with this and more discrete than in a live game.
I fully support you in your bid to remove this kind of angle shooting.
lars
I don't see how you would prevent this type of angle shooting.
If you really want to prevent something like this, it can be done.
An excample of how it could be done: At all new tables (ie, where you can sit down and start playing before having to post your first blind), Paradise collects a 'Blind Pool', where every player contributes with money/chips enough to support one big and one small blind each.
Then Paradise/the online 'dealer' just uses this chips to post bilnds for the players the first round of hands.
Maybe a very confusion/hard way to do it, but it'd at least eliminate the problem.
kars
Is this what they do in Vegas and California? Doesn't it makes sense to be consistent?
If a player does this in a live casino, there is nothing they can do; this time. But, when it's clear that the player is doing it repeatedly, the club has the power to remove them from the premises, permanently. That is what I would recommend to the online sites. If they see this happen a couple of times, then warn the player, and then remove the player.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You will never see Izmet, Abdul and Angelina at the same table because Angelina is a sick joke created by Izmet and his psychologically deficient humor. Izmet thinks he is a beautiful woman trapped inside the body of a shrunken little ugly man. You will never see "Angelina" at a table, period. "She" doesn't even exist, but Izmet is howling his head off at the buffoons that slobber over his little joke. Probably some cafe waitress that poses at the computer for him for a tidy tip. How he gets away with posting this Angelina facade this long on this forum amazes me. The managers of this forum know there is no Angelina, just ask them.
Wake up. Angelina is actually D. Sklansky. Isn't the connection obvious?
How many letters in Angelina and Sklansky?
It is a little known fact, one that you didnt know, that David Sklansky doesn't exist: His picture on the books is some college professor.
David Sklansky is actually..... ANGELINA Kimberly...the illegitimate daughter or Phillip and Alma Kimberly. who's brother Edward Kimberly bares a striking resemblance to Dustin Hoffman.
I once e-mailed Angelina with a question about Paradise Poker and if Izmet answered I am sure I got just as fine a response.
You scare me. If Izmet made me up, I need to rethink this whole reality business and I'm terrified of the consequences. I will let you know if I find something out. I plan to start by pinching him in his sleep, if you don't hear from me again, it was just a bad dream of his.
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
Ljubljana, Slovenia
...if you ask Izmet first you might not have to take such a dangerous step.
I just can't be believe it's taken the dorks on this forum this long to figure it out.
Izmet is really a dude called Jonas a TV talk show host in Elbonia, just the kind of guy that would have some classy foreign bird as a girlfriend, who wouldn't mind posing in front of his PP screens...
simple.
MBNA America (the issuer of my VISA card) called me yesterday to question charges which were made to "Paradise E-cash" (or whatever it is they go by now) on my account. They informed me that since these charges were associated with online gambling they were closing my account. I was free to re-apply for a new account, but my current account was being closed.
I'm not sure if this is an action that MBNA is taking against me soley or all of their customers who have internet gambling related charges on their accounts.
Anyone else have this happen to them?
When I first played online my company called for security reasons since it was an offshore charge, same thing they do anytime there is unusual activity, but when I told them I had indeed made the charge, there was no problem.
I bought in a long time ago, but cashed out completely two weeks ago before my vacation to Italy, so I hadn't used a card in a long time. When I tried to buy in when I returned, I had the same security call with Chase Bank MC and Visa who had declined the Paradise buyin. My wife got the call, so I wasn't pleased, they made it sound like I was a degenerate gambler - which I am - but no need to rub it in. When she hassled me, I reminded her which petty cash account our trip had been paid from, hehe, so she smiled and was happy again.
One of my other credit cards worked just fine,
Mark
I've had credit cards call me in the past also when there were questionable charges, but this is the first time they have closed an account on me. I don't understand why they chose now to take this action. I have never had any late payments and just recently paid off my balance with them. Even the representative I spoke with said I was in good standing with the company and was free to re-apply for a new card.
Raising for value with a big draw against a big field is a money maker, obviously. But the title of the origal post implied a free-card play and I see players make a free-card play from out of position all the time. And that IS a terrible play.
However, I still don't like the raise with a baby straight draw and terrible position. Here's my thoughts on that move, let's see what people think.
If you know these players well and you know they are passive fish, then fine, it's probably a good play to raise. Standard low-limit loose-fish game move. But if the 20-40 is, as Angelina seems to imply, such a tough game, you should not only expect to be 3 bet on the flop but bet into on the turn. So, against very tough players, I don't like this move, and in a shorthanded pot I don't like at all. Against a field of SERIOUS fish, I think it's not terrible but not great, just a routine, slightly profitable yet high variance play, which can backfire on you since you don't have position.
Another reason I don't like it is because your return on investment is worse, now that you have to start putting in a lot more money. You are not only putting MORE money into a pot you don't own yet, you are opening yourself up to possibly paying three to four big bets more to win a pot that was already substantial, thus cutting down your returns signficantly.
So let's look at this return comparison:
(Assuming an actual tough game and not a passive school of idiot fish) you plan to raise from early position with a draw. The pot now has 14 small bets. 5 people paid two bets to the see the flop. UTG bets again, all 3 other opponents call. There are 7 big bets in the pot right now. If you call, you are getting 14:1 on your money for a little worse than a 2:1 shot. Assuming that on average 3 people will put in money on the turn including you, you are looking at putting in 3 more small bets to win 18. You're getting 6:1 on your money. If you make the nuts, let's assume you'll get on average one more bet on the river, so you're getting actually 20:3 on your money (I'm not counting that last river bet as money you've risked since you'll have the nuts and it's not a risk)
Now let's look at the raise. Let's say on average the UTG bettor will reraise half the time, and on average two people will drop because of it, knowing they will likely see a cap from you. The other half of the time everyone will just call.
Those times when everyone just calls, you'll have put in two bets to win 18, getting 9:1 on your money. That's pretty good. I like it. But the odds of seeing the turn for free are slim to none. Getting a free card in this situation is so rare it's not even worth considering. There WILL be a bet on the turn. So you are DEFINITELY looking at putting in at least one more big bet, sometimes it can be two. Let's say on average 2 or 3 people drop on the turn, since that's when people go. You'll be putting in another big bet for a pot that has on average 21 small bets (18 plus 3, the average of 1 or 2 players putting in one big bet each). You'll now be getting 21:4 on your money, less than the 6:1 when you just call. Assuming you hit, we can add one more big bet as part of your implied odds and give you 23:4 on your money. That's pretty good, but unfortunately, I think these two scenarios are your absolute best case, when facing weak players.
Now what about those times when the UTG player re-raises? After all, he's shown marked aggression the whole time and it's quite likely he'll re-raise.
So half the time when the UTG reraises, you will be looking at putting in 3 bets into a pot that has 20 in it at that point. You may choose to reraise in which case you'll put in 4 bets for a pot that has 20 but will almost certainly have 22. So you're getting 22:4 right there. (This is using the assumption that on average, two people will fold to a re-raise from the UTG bettor knowing they face a likely cap from you).
But if this kind of aggression is going on, you will certainly be seeing some betting on the turn. There is almost no chance for a free card here. So let's assume that almost every time the UTG player bets and the remaining two players (you and a fish) will call. Now you've put in 6 bets to win 26. You're getting 13:3 on your money now. Assume the usual one bet pay-off on the river when you make it and you're getting 15:3 on your money. If by some chance one of the other players makes a hand on the turn and raises the UTG bettor, and you have to put in two bets on the turn, you're now getting 34:8, slightly better than 4:1, which isn't a whole lot better than your true odds on making the hand to begin with.
In the strange case where you might find yourself heads up on the turn and decide to semi-bluff into your opponent but get raised, you're down to 3:1 on your money by the end, almost no real profit. Although if you DO bet out, you're getting a pretty nice price on the bluff, but I still think it's mitigated by the good chance you'll get raised.
So by risking making people drop and risking getting involved in a big pot with players who have strong cards who will bet aggressively, you are lowering your return by a lot. In fact, you are risking lowering your return to as low as 4:1 and even 3:1, although those are the extreme cases.
Again, if don't think there's much chance that you'll get reraised, and if you think there is a reasonable chance that you will see the turn for free, then it's probably a good play, BUT ONLY if you are facing hard-core, dedicated, life-long fish committed to pacifism. If you are in a tough game with people who will raise aggressively, then I think this play is only marginally better than break even over the long run and will send your variance through the roof needlessly.
The last reason not to do this with the hand in question is because it's not even a draw to the nuts! Making the little baby straight will fairly frequently cost you some money when you face that many limpers. If it were a draw to the nuts, the play would be stronger. Without drawing to the nuts, the play becomes even MORE break-even in the long run, because when you DO lose to a bigger straight, it will cost you quite a bit. If this happens to you so rarely that you are scoffing at me right now for even considering the possibility, then all I can say is go play lotto because you live a charmed life. This happens frequently.
When you're running well, you'll rake in tons of chips, but when you're running cold, you will quickly die. Over the long run, I think you'll come out slightly ahead with this play but not by a lot. If you're playing at a table with decent players, that free card possibility is non-existent and you're looking at very possibly reducing the return on your money significantly by facing aggressive betting on the turn and/or running into a better hand.
All of this doesn't even touch on the fact that the player defends the blind with 64s!!! Sorry, I can't justify that play. You're just not going to win the hand 10% of the time here from out of position with a crappy trap hand. But that's for another discussion....
Thoughts? And please, if you disagree, just disagree and give me your thoughts without the macho posturing or personal attacks. It's not constructive. We can posture back and forth all day. You wanna play pot limit five card stud high low declare? I'll take all your money. So there. :)
natedogg
I was too hard on you Nate, sorry for patronizing you. You are obviously putting a lot of thought into this game and so am I, you shall be a great player someday and so shall I. Let me be real brief here:
My play on the flop is much simpler than it appears to you and I have already explained my reasons. It is the best play available for that particular situation, second best would be betting out (I guess you will not trust me on this one), third best meekly check-calling to the river and please nobody mention folding as I could keel over laughing.
And you didn't even address the issue of balance...
BTW, two minor points: 1. I did get the free card, so why are you insisting I couldn't possibly get one? 2. Folding 64s preflop in that spot is wasting money, implied odds are too good to pass.
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
Slovenia
OH DEAR GOD NATE
Imagine all the money you lost by writing this endless mumbojumbo when u could have been playing.
lol.... I got half way and gave up
great analysis...gl
Natedogg:
I just skimmed through your post so I may have missed this. But if I didn't there is a factor that you have overlooked. It is that when you checkraise several players on the flop with a draw from an early position, they usually don't put you on the draw. Now if you make your flush (or straight) on the turn, you may cause some misplays given your hand because of your earlier check raise. This can include getting raised when they are drawing dead, etc. If this happens, it can frequently more than make up for the fact that when you checkraise it will sometimes go to three bets and the field may get cut down.
Nate,
The title of the post has nothing to do with the play itself. The free card was the funny thing about the hand (and it almost certainly can be attributed to the check-raise on the flop), but the raise (as you've stated) was a +EV move.
And I've never understood the whole argument about return on investment. If someone offered you a 3-1 return on a coin flip for up to $100, and 2-1 on anything you bet over the $100, would you bet just the $100 because your R.O.I would be higher?
Plus, her raise was actually from the perfect position to keep a large field in, since it was UTG that bet out, noone had to coldcall. You are right that she would have been screwed if UTG three-bet it in order to isolate. But how hard could that flop have hit a pre-flop UTG raiser (unless it was a set of jacks, in which case he'd probably just smooth-call to keep everyone in).
Mason brings up a good point also. The check-raise disguised her hand well. A 3 would look like a blank to almost any of her opponents who might be slowplaying sets or top 2, etc. I guarantee if the guy who had pocket 3's had a stack bigger than $16, she would have gotten played back at on the river and made at least $80 more than she did.
Your original point that it is wrong to try to buy a free card out of position is valid. But I think it's been proven (by yourself as well) that her play (especially considering the calling stations she was up against) was a good one.
I thought that the idea of diminishing your own return on investment was worth exploring, but it turns out, it's not. :)
The raise is good, and I will do so in next time I get a chance.
I actually think that Angelina's and Mason's points (Angelina said it was good to raise here with draws ANd made hands to vary your play, and Mason said you can really hammer people if you make the draw on the turn and they don't suspect) are excellent.
natedogg
Nate,
couldn't read it all but you are being too varience-shy. The pot that is already built is not going anywhere. The new pot that is building is what makes the raise a better EV. Even against better players.
Should Angel miss her draw on the turn she now has great odds on the turn.
Regards Mike N
I have been playing at Paradise for about a week and have won quite a bit of money and am considering cashing out a bunch. However, I know 3 people who started won big, cashed out some and then went on a crazy loosing streak. Ya Ya I know that this happens all the time in live games, but couldnt paradise tag your account if you are cashing out? Or conversly give you some good luck for new accounts? Anyone else experience this?
Also, is anyone afraid of Paradise closing up shop someday and keeping all of our money?
Thanks
I now have cashed-out two times considerable amounts of my bankroll, and i still am winning. Yes I've had some bad days, but nothing to be suprised of. You should always consider when cashing-out to leave a good bankroll behind, because you COULD get a bad-streak; not because you cashed out, but it could be, since you have been winning quite a lot lately :)
And no, I'm not afraid that Paradise will keep my money, they were always very quickly in paying me out; i see no reason to not trust them.
Regards, ME
If there was a downside associated with getting checks from Paradise I would have gone broke a long time ago as I order about one a week.
You'll probably want to keep at least a grand or two in your account if you play regularly. But I wouldn't keep much more there. As if they needed the interest. Also, the checks come faster if you order them in amounts of more than a grand.
Can you tell me which limits you play and how many hours a week?
And what's your hourly rate?
Just interested. Thanks.
I don't disclose my hourly but you can see me regularly playing the 3-6 to 10-20 tables, mostly the lower games, under the name "marco." I play about 40 hours a week online.
Thanks.I was interested, because i wonder if it wouldbe more profitable to cash-out once in a while or to cash out every week or so. By not cashing out every week you lose interest, but you can get a big check, so that your payment for cashing the check by your bank doesnt cost that much. I dont know how the costs are in the US, but here (Netherlands) you pay quite a bit, and I also have to pay the valuta costs. So i think for me it's more profitable to cash out bigger amounts.
I dont know how much you cash out every week (because then i could calculate your hourly rate :)), but in what range do you cash out? I cash out in about 800-1k range (but i only play 2/4 and 3/6, about 20 hours a week).
Regards, ME.
The amounts have ranged from $400 to $1,500.
I'm not aware of any banks in the US that charge you for cashing a check when you have an active account with them. I have never had an account that did that, at least. Also, I don't know what the valuta costs are, but I'm pretty sure I don't pay those either.
You do have to pay taxes on gambling wins in this country, however, and I know you don't in at least some European countries. What about the Netherlands?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hi, some banks here in europe charge you to cash foreign checks, "valuta" means currency, and most banks charge a fee for currency exchange unless you have a dollar account.
Its called dividends from return on investment.
Actually, there are probably almost infinitely many ways to cheat if Paradise Poker wanted to, but just make a rough estimate of how much they're raking each day and I'm sure you'll agree that they have little reason to do it. They seem to make a great effort to assure players that the games are fair, and respond quickly to accusations of collusion.
The swings in poker are large, and the games at Paradise Poker move quickly. This means sometimes you'll win a lot, but sometimes when you lose, you'll lose a lot. I've had my share of bad beats on Paradise Poker.
Bob J.
Its called no controlling legal authority. Of course, you can always adopt the naive belief that business is fair everywhere, and that no-one ever cheats. YOu can also believe in Peter Pan if you want.
Jeez - this again. Costa Rica is a country of laws, PP cannot do whatever they please. CR is not a third world country as you conspiracy theorists would have us believe.
Could you quit harping on this tired subject please.
There is no cash out bug - I recently cashed out and have enjoyed winning after I cashed out
Another believer in Never, Never Land!
are these two sites the same??
do they have the same employes?
I have heard that there is a guy named Rex at 4knights and I KNOW there is a REX in poker.com s support team.
what does this mean then?
Same software, same technical support staff, different owners.
Im not acquainted with poker.com. So, I can not say if 4knights and poker.com have links. I "heard" that 4knights paid poker.com to use this software, much as pokerpages has paid pokerspot.com money to use that software.
What I do know about 4knights are the games, tho extremely limited right now, are very good. That 4knights pays out by certified check, and that their $150.00 high hand pay out every day has been won by me 4 times in a little over 60 hrs play so far. the hands i have won high hand with are quad 3's..yes, quad 3's were the highest hand dealt in 24 ghrs.....quad 6's, quad jacks, and i just won high hand with a royal straight flush in diamonds Wednesday of this last week.
Buckcp in Casper,Wy. who is just a player.........and, a rather green player at that.
$ knights also does not let any canadians play-anyone know why?
Bob, I'm fairly sure there are canadians playing at this site. The majority of players here are european. If you ae talkingt about them not accepting a debit card..... that is your bank, and not them. I too tried making a deposit with a debit card, and was turned down...... I then tried trhe credit card, and was turned down. I wrote 4 knights about these problems, and they told me to set up a account with neteller.com...... and neteller would handle the transfer, with 4knights picking up the charge for this. I did, neteller did, and 4knights picked up the tab. Hope this helps Bob. Buckcp
Bob L. I just talked with the owners wife about your question. She said they do have some canadian players playing there, but, they are useing a diferent address, then their canadian address. There is a legality issue, beings their sofware is licensed in Canada. They are working on it, but for now, it looks like this is the only way to get around this problem. Hope I was able to help. Buckcp
c
nt
Hello has anyone tried Cherrypoker.com?? I was wondering if its worth a visit or is Paradise still clearly the best...
You can easily visit (no downloads) but not much action. Most I've ever seen is 1 shorthanded game.
The lack of players so far isn't too surprising, I guess, since they just opened.
A thing that might be positive about the site is that it's a part of a complete online casino, so maybe some roulette and slot machine players are lured into the poker room...
But, as I wrote in a previous post, I truly am concerned when it comes to the competence of the people running the place, since when I signed up for an account to try the place out, my sign-up information, including nickname and, mind you, PASSWORD, was transmitted over the Internet without any encryption whatsoever. I've noticed that they have changed this now, though, but they really should have thought about this in advance, and the fact that they didn't looks REALLY bad in my book. Most poker sites make sure everything works as it should BEFORE starting real money play. And a thing like this should of course work before ANY play begins. What if they keep doing things this way? Get it up and running and fix things later...
Well, maybe they'll shape up. Now you know to decide for yourself. And I have no doubts that it is a serious company. Just whether they are competent enough (at the present time) for this kind of thing.
-JDS
Is this site still up? And is it the Doyle Brunson One? What address do you type in? Thanks,
Yes, Yes, its www.highlandsclub.com
I hate bad beat stories/posts/whines as much as you guys (and maybe this isn't even a bad beat, I don't know) but I just have to post it, for amusement purposes anyway.
I flopped the nuts on a rainbow board and it was capped four-way, without me popping it once. Anyway, read it and weep (I know I did). (names changed to protect suckout artists and trampled on souls)
Table "Montserrat" (real money) -- Seat 3 is the button Seat 2: Knight ($382 in chips) Seat 3: Boeheim ($1,206 in chips) Seat 4: Williams ($56 in chips) Seat 5: Izzo ($747 in chips) Seat 6: Skinner ($644.50 in chips) Seat 7: Cheaney ($496 in chips) Seat 8: Doherty ($1,596 in chips) Seat 9: Huggins ($354 in chips) Seat 10: Alford ($3,331 in chips) Williams: Post Small Blind ($10) Izzo: Post Big Blind ($15) Knight: Post ($25) Dealing... Dealt to Skinner [ Qh ] Dealt to Skinner [ Jd ] Skinner: Call ($15) Cheaney: Call ($15) Doherty : Call ($15) Huggins: Call ($15) Alford : Call ($15) Knight: Check Boeheim: Call ($15) Williams: Fold Izzo: Check *** FLOP *** : [ Ts 8d 9h ] Izzo: Check Skinner: Check Cheaney: Check Doherty : Check Huggins: Check Alford : Bet ($15) Knight: Fold Boeheim: Raise ($30) Izzo: Fold Skinner: Call ($30) Cheaney: Fold Doherty : Fold Huggins: Call ($30) Alford : Raise ($30) Boeheim: Raise ($30) Skinner: Call ($30) Huggins: Call ($30) Alford : Call ($15) *** TURN *** : [ Ts 8d 9h ] [ 4d ] Skinner: Check Huggins: Check Alford : Check Boeheim: Bet ($30) Skinner: Raise ($60) Huggins: Call ($60) Alford : Fold Boeheim: Call ($30) *** RIVER *** : [ Ts 8d 9h 4d ] [ Js ] Skinner: Bet ($30) Huggins: Raise ($60) Boeheim: Fold Skinner: Call ($30) *** SUMMARY *** Pot: $677 | Rake: $3 Board: [ Ts 8d 9h 4d Js ] Pitino didn't bet Knight lost $25 (folded) Boeheim lost $135 (folded) Williams lost $10 (folded) Izzo lost $15 (folded) Skinner lost $195 (showed hand) [ Qh Jd ] (a straight, eight to queen) Cheaney lost $15 (folded) Doherty lost $15 (folded) Huggins bet $195, collected $677, net +$482 (showed hand) [ Ks Qc ] (a straight, nine to king) Alford lost $75 (folded) -----------------------------------------------------
And I don't want to hear any of you sorry bastards talk about "Why'd you play QJo under the gun in the first place?" It was a table of limpers, so just zip it.
Just kidding. But seriously, I know someone probably had a set out there with all that action, so a board pair might have killed me too. But can you believe that someone called 4 on the flop, 2 COLD on the turn, to catch a gutshot. I know, pot odds, implied odds, blah blah blah. I still say it's a bad beat dammit. And if it wasn't online, I would have pulled a Hellmuth on that guy's ass.
I played at PP for over a year, +1000 hours, have been satisfied about PP, but want to trey an other site. Which one should I try? highlandsclub free tournement, bad beat 4 knights best hand other Which one can I trust, and is giving best bonusses, has weak players, is pleasant to play,.... ? Thanks for advise.
Cartouche, I played at Paradise last year, and stayed away from online poker since that time. A friend who had played Paradise with me, got ahold of me and suggested I give 4knights a try. I did and am now a happy online player again. AFter a little over 60 hrs total play, i have won high hand 4 times......and tho the games are limited so far, they are growing. Say howdy if you sign up Buckcp
can anyone try to access poker.com and see if it is working.
Because I dont seem to be able to enter.
Poker.Com Working fine over here....
What happened was an update was issued yesterday and if you downloaded it, a bug in the update has prevented you from getting back in!
They know this has happened and if you didn't download it yesterday they have probably removed the problem.
Maybe reloading the entire programme will help?
yes it worked thank you
which are the best tournments to play on paradise ? I mean 100$ buy-in are more tought than 10$ buyin ' tournment but more money to make at 100$ than at 10$ .I have stopped to play standard game on paradise and I play only tournment and LLO8 . 20$ and 30$ , seem to be the most valuable limit . (repost on tournament 'forum)
Game #51832605 - $5/$10 Hold'em - 2001/02/13-00:55:40 (CST)Table "Kalao" (real money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Seat 1: Fisherman ($324 in chips)
Seat 2: UncleMeat ($259 in chips)
Seat 4: Big 2`s ($195 in chips)
Seat 5: natedogg ($176 in chips)
Seat 6: matt a. ($165 in chips)
Seat 7: BUSHWACKER ($185.50 in chips)
Seat 8: --HHH-- ($193 in chips)
Seat 9: redpitts ($50 in chips)
Seat 10: ESPdriven ($206 in chips)
Big 2`s : Post Small Blind ($2)
natedogg: Post Big Blind ($5)
redpitts: Post ($5)
Dealing...
Dealt to natedogg [ 2d ]
Dealt to natedogg [ Td ]
matt a. : Call ($5)
BUSHWACKER: Call ($5)
--HHH-- : Fold
redpitts: Check
ESPdriven: Fold
Fisherman: Call ($5)
UncleMeat: Call ($5)
Big 2`s : Fold
natedogg: Check
*** FLOP *** : [ Ac 3d 5s ]
natedogg: Check
matt a. : Check
BUSHWACKER: Check
redpitts: Bet ($5)
Fisherman: Call ($5)
UncleMeat: Fold
natedogg: Call ($5)
matt a. : Call ($5)
BUSHWACKER: Fold
*** TURN *** : [ Ac 3d 5s ] [ 4c ]
natedogg: Bet ($10)
matt a. : Fold
redpitts: Raise ($20)
Fisherman: Call ($20)
natedogg: Raise ($20)
redpitts: Fold
Fisherman: Call ($10)
*** RIVER *** : [ Ac 3d 5s 4c ] [ Jh ]
natedogg: Bet ($10)
Fisherman: Call ($10)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $149 | Rake: $3
Board: [ Ac 3d 5s 4c Jh ]
Fisherman lost $50 [ 5c 7c ] (a pair of fives)
UncleMeat lost $5 (folded)
Phans didn't bet
Big 2`s lost $2 (folded)
natedogg bet $50, collected $149, net +$99 (showed hand) [ 2d Td ] (a straight, ace to five)
matt a. lost $10 (folded)
BUSHWACKER lost $5 (folded)
--HHH-- didn't bet (folded)
redpitts lost $30 (folded)
ESPdriven didn't bet (folded)
I would have folded the flop. You have a gutshot to the non-nuts and a runner-runner flush draw. I save this bet every time. I think you got lucky. Jeff
Game #52070903 - $5/$10 Hold'em - 2001/02/14-00:17:00 (CST)
Table "Tonga" (real money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Seat 1: woblidz'e ($115 in chips)
Seat 2: markfallon ($839 in chips)
Seat 3: Guess Who ($487 in chips)
Seat 4: flano ($540.50 in chips)
Seat 5: hongru ($255 in chips)
Seat 6: DoyleB ($55 in chips)
Seat 7: thavma ($477 in chips)
Seat 8: *Que* ($123 in chips)
Seat 9: Hatless ($1,064 in chips)
Seat 10: natedogg ($212 in chips)
flano : Post Small Blind ($2)
hongru : Post Big Blind ($5)
Dealing...
Dealt to natedogg [ Ac ]
Dealt to natedogg [ Td ]
DoyleB said, " foul play!"
DoyleB : Call ($5)
thavma : Call ($5)
*Que* : Fold
Hatless : Fold
natedogg: Call ($5)
woblidz'e: Fold
markfallon: Fold
Guess Who: Call ($5)
flano : Call ($3)
hongru : Check
*** FLOP *** : [ 7h Ts 5d ]
flano : Check
hongru : Check
DoyleB : Check
thavma : Check
natedogg: Bet ($5)
Guess Who: Call ($5)
flano : Call ($5)
hongru : Call ($5)
DoyleB : Fold
thavma : Fold
*** TURN *** : [ 7h Ts 5d ] [ Qs ]
flano : Check
hongru : Check
natedogg: Bet ($10)
Guess Who: Raise ($20)
flano : Fold
hongru : Fold
natedogg: Fold
Guess Who: Winner -- doesn't show cards
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $67 | Rake: $3
Board: [ 7h Ts 5d Qs ]
woblidz'e didn't bet (folded)
markfallon didn't bet (folded)
Guess Who bet $30, collected $77, net +$47
flano lost $10 (folded)
hongru lost $10 (folded)
DoyleB lost $5 (folded)
thavma lost $5 (folded)
*Que* didn't bet (folded)
Hatless didn't bet (folded)
natedogg lost $20 (folded) [ Ac Td ] (a pair of
tens)
natedogg
It's close but I think this is a call against an unknown opponent.
You can't invariably fold in this situation because you'll open yourself up too much. So then it becomes a question of whether there are factors that make calling here prudent.
For one, there's the size of the pot. If he has a queen (and not likely AQ or QT), you've got enough money to draw (almost 9-1 including a bet on the river). Of course, sometimes he'll show you a set, but sometimes he'll have one of several draws possible with this board, and some of those times he won't bet on the end if he misses but ends up pairing instead. Also, you shouldn't need top pair to bet the flop after several check, and he's in an awfully convenient position to have spiked a higher pair on the turn.
OTOH, I know a lot of players against whom I'd make the same play you did.
you've shopwn tha t you play 10-2s, and A-10o. Where is this reccomended in any literature?(I suppose the school of any ace, or no foldem holdem might reccomend limping with this). I don't understand your play at all Natedogg.
DANGER DANGER MAJOR FISH running AMUCK in the Paradise 5-10 game.
Is there not something about practicing what you preach? Where did all the super tight sage advice go from before?
I'd play ATo in an unraised blind, or on the idiot table in the baby game but above 1-2, NFW.
Where did you get the idea that AT for one bet after two limpers is generally unplayable? It's not in anything I've ever read. I see players coming in all the time in the Paradise 5-10 games with hands like JTs, KT and 66 utg, but they'll raise with big pairs/AK/AQ and often AJ. You can't make money with AT behind players like this? Why not?
$10 tourney - We're in the 200-400 round. 5 players left and I'm 1000 chips ahead.
I'm dealt AJ diamonds in the BB. All fold, SB calls, I raise, SB calls.
Flop: [ 9c 4d Th ] I bet, he raises, I call.
Turn: [ 7h ] He goes all-in, I call.
River: [ As ]
He shows 7-9 of spades to take 2/3 of my chips. Did I misplay this? Thanks in advance for the criticism.
Cassidy
Depends upon the opponent. Against some, the way you played it would be perfect. Against others, it would be horrible. So, I can't say.
If this were the first hand and the guy is a total unknown, then your plays are certainly not terrible. The biggest mistake would probably be calling the check-raise on the flop.
Did you consider 3-betting the flop? With him down to only 1 bet anyway, it is probably impossible to get him to fold, but if he were bluffing, he just might try to save that last bet, which is good, since he has at least 3 outs against your hand no matter what he's holding. While it wouldn't likely work, it wouldn't change how much you lost very often either.
I would also seriously consider NOT raising with AJ preflop next time. If the raise will cause the opponent to check-and-fold every time he misses the flop, then it is a mandatory preflop raise. If it won't achieve this, then it increases variance at a critical point in the tourney, where you want to survive, even at great cost, and slide into at least 3rd place money.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
This was the first time I played this guy, and considered him pretty loose. He played any Qx, Kx, Ax suited, and cold called a raise w/ pocket 3s and 2 other callers (and won without making a set!)
Btw, I came in 4th in this one. =^( I have been making 4th and 5th a lot lately, primarily because of plays such as this one where I play too strong and fast and burn all my chips when I miss. Thanks for opening my eyes to the folly of this preflop raise, Fossilman.
C
to raise here. But sometimes checking is the better play. Think about the opponent and the chip counts, and keep it in mind.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I'm not a tourney player although I've done well in the $10 PP tournaments.
With a 1000 chip lead you need to position yourself to place in the money. Attack very small stacks but be wary of anyone who has 1/3 or more of your stack.
AJs is a nice free play. You need not raise when you you may gain by hiding the strength of your hand.
You missed this flop and the heads up player has shown interest. He's hoping you have a couple of face cards and he's right. FOLD. He could have a set and u can be drawing dead. You still have a lead in chips and another opportunity will come along.
Since I mouthed off previously that it was possible for somebody to achieve 100% ROI playing these tourneys, I was asked to update everybody after I had played in more of these things. My sample size is still statistically insignificant, but it has more than doubled since I originally made those comments.
Record (1-2-3-no money): 8-2-2-6 ROI: about 130%
Of the 6 losses, 4 were in 20 and 30 events, and since then I've only played in 50 and 100 events, so the ROI is much higher than if I'd only played in higher priced tourneys. Since those 4 original losses, my record is 8-2-2-2. I don't expect to keep that up forever.
I won an event this weekend where I raised UTG against 4 opponents with Q6o. I had T850, blinds were 200-400, and the next hand (my BB) they were going to 300-600. So, I decided that I was better off with this barely above-average hand, hoping that everybody mucks or at least I only have to face the big blind with random cards. No such luck. Player behind 3-bets, and big blind 4-bets. Big blind bets again on the flop, going all-in, and is called. QQ for big blind, KK for player behind, and 4 clubs on board at the river so my Qc makes the winning flush. Pretty darn lucky, since a quick simulation indicated that I was going to win here a bit less than 7% of the time. I went on to win that tourney, so I'm certainly aware that luck plays a big role.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I'll share my results with everybody...The following is broke up into 2 sections: My first 30 $55.00 buy in tournies, and my second 30 that I never finished.
After my first 30, I felt I had a good system for beating them, which is why I wanted to test my theory and compare my results with the next 30..After 14 second phase tournies I quit disgusted. I lost my last 9 in a row with about 4 4th place finishes :(. --------------------------- Phase 1: First 30:
1st place :4 2nd :6 3rd :2 4th :3 5th::5 6th :0 7th::6 8th :0 9th::1 10th:3
Total buy ins: $1650 Payouts: $2100
profit: $450.00 avg rounds: 5.5 esimated time: 36 minutes each..18hrs total= $25.00 per hour. ------------------------------------------ Phase 2:
14 out of 30 (aborted).
1st: 2 2nd: 1 3rd: 0 No money: 11
Total buy ins: $770 Payouts: $650 loss: -$120.00 ---------------------------------- Overall:
44 tournies
+$330.00 Hrs: 30
Win Rate: $11.00 per hour
Conclusion: Waste of my time and need bigger sample size. The $100.00 buy-ins have tougher players therefore $22.00 per hour is not probable. There is just no such thing as DEAD MONEY in these 1 table limit tournaments which also hurts(ANYBODY can win). And the limits go up too fast to take a live play approach. They are beatable in the long-run in my opinion, but not nearly as good as large live tournaments, or live PP games.
Also my win rate is higher playing live. (I've won a significant amount in live PP play by the way.)
+ the FossilMan needs to increase his sample size if he wants to show they are beatable...
If anybody is curious on my strategy changes I will share them since I will not be playing them anymore:
1st and 2nd phase: played super tight first 2-3 rounds. A pot here is not going to make you but could cripple you later..Usually I just post and fold. If you are going to play hands only play AA-JJ. I prefer to stay away from AK-AQ to, as these hands add to your fluctuations which is what you must avoid early. Don't protect your blinds.
1st phase: Played solid from 3rd round on. My play was similiar to live play here.
2nd phase: Tried to take a cat & mouse approach from 3rd round on...Example: 3rd round, 8 players, just won a pot: Stack size=$1250...2 other players have short stacks..I would tighten up serverly and wait for 1 or 2 more players to bust out..Then attack again.
For whatever reason, I really like my approach used in the 2nd phase, however I ended up with a bunch of 4th place finishes which may have just been bad luck.
late stages: good survival and shorthanded skills are a must..blah blah blah.
Also there are a few other tricks most people learn from experience. In general I also think you should attack with 5-6 players remaining as most players play very scared in this spot.
I agree with playing very tight early, but not so tight you're mucking AK. If you're really only playing AA-JJ in the first 30 hands, you're only playing 1 hand during this period, every other tournament. That's 6 sets of blinds you're paying to play one hand. What you win back won't be enough.
Play hands that are clearly +EV, but not the ones that are only marginally positive. AK is much too strong to fold preflop, and AQ should usually only be folded if there is already a raise (and maybe not even then).
Other pairs also play well, depending upon the circumstances. If 4 players limp in ahead of me, I'm not mucking any pair. 6 times out of 7 I'll lose one bet, but the 7th time I'll win (90% certainty?) 15-20 bets. This is way positive expectation.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I disagree with a lot of your points. Okay,AKx,AQx and AK might would be playable on the 3rd round (marginally).
In a live game they are obviously big long term winners.
I would play them from round 3 on. Giving up 4 blinds (first 2 rounds) will set you back around $65.00.
If you never played any hand (even AA) your chances of making it to the 3rd round are 100%.
I looked at a quick sim result of AK off, with 2 limpers in middle position. It only won 21% of the time. (It would be higher heads up). Now in this spot you will severely cripple your stack in the 3rd round 80% of the time.
So lets say your at the $25.00/$50.00 level (round 2). Your in this exact spot and pick up AK. 2 Limpers, you raise. Lets guesstimate that on average you probaly lose 2.5 big bets total(when you do lose). Overall this hand in this spot is going to profit about $22.00 in the long run (A respectfull amount in live play).
So 80% of the time your stack will be crippled here $250.00...(The other 20% of the time you will have a nice lead, but is it worth it?).
Also AA will win 56% of the time. KK 46% of the time using this simulation that models the play of a tighter than avg. game.
So now if we assume you are never dealt AA-JJ and are dealt AK in the 2nd round in mid position w/ 2 limpers,20% of the time you will lose $250.00 + Blinds ($65) & now have less then $500.00.
Lets take your other example of 4 limpers, pocket 4,4. late position, 2nd round...For one thing this hand in a tight game in this spot is a marginal winner in a live game. It's EV is a little higher in tournament because there is no rake.
If you only play the hand if you flop a set, it is now a loser. This is because if the flop comes 995, or 992, you will play it in a live game and show +EV. Now you are mucking it because you are playing scared. If you stick to your guns, you just agreed to play a -EV situation in the hopes of winning a big pot in only the 2nd round.
Well lets say you would play it..Once again showing you that although this flop has positive EV its variance is more than likely going to set your stack back to under $500.00.
Lets say you flop a set..Keep in mind that flopping a set is a 2 PARLAY EVENT. First you must flop it. Second it has to hold up..I would guess that you will still lose about 30% of the time.. with 5+ players seeing the flop.
If you do win with the AK or 44, your stack will probaly be around $1100-$1400.0 on avg I would guess. In my experience I do not place in the $$ that much more when my stack size is $1200 compared to only $750.00 (in any round).
However when my stack gets cripple to under $500.00 it seems like I am on borrowed time more often then not. I don't know the math behind it, this is just from experience.
So in conclusion you probaly want to only play a hand that can win about 40% of the time in multiway hands(Risk vs. reward). and about 65%+ in heads up situations these first 2 rounds...in my opinion.
DW.
DW,
I appreciate the work you put into your posts. However, I think your sims might have some serious flaws.
How does AK only win 21% of the time against 2 limpers? I just don't understand what type of simulation got that result, unless you gave the limpers KK and JJ, or some such.
Also, even against 2 hands selected to play optimally against AA, it does a little better than 56%, in my simulation. When you consider that sometimes these hands are crippled (by AA or each other), I bet over a range of reasonable limping hands AA wins at least 75%.
Also, in reference to your other post, I really doubt that a set wins only 65% of the time against a reasonable range of limping hands. It makes a full house almost 1/3 of the time as it is, and that will very rarely lose. Of the remaining 2/3, there will be a flush possible much less than half the time, and even though there is almost always a possible straight, it won't be out there that often. I think you need to supply some details of your simulations, because I think they are misleading you.
Furthermore, you seem to making the absolute most pessimistic assumptions about each of these scenarios. It's like my opponents can catch me if they call, but fold if they're not going to; they can bluff me out but I can never bluff them (or catch them bluffing). I think there is some serious balance missing in these numbers you're deriving.
Finally, I think your personal results with respect to stack size have colored your judgment. I cannot find any logical reason why your results would be identical with a stack of 750 or 1200, but much, much worse with 500. Well, I can think of one. When you lose that early hand and drop down to 500, you go on tilt and blow off the rest of your chips. I don't think that's what is happening to you, but I can't think of any other reasonable explanations.
In the early stages, you should play tighter than you would if the game were a cash game. The reason for this is NOT because hands that have only marginally +EV chipwise are -EV moneywise. It is because the slight EV you give up by not playing these hands is more than recovered in the middle and late stages when you can steal blinds easier than your opponents (because you've developed such a tight image).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Okay Greg, in regards to my sim results, I have put a great deal of effort into most of them (before this post started).
First off I did indeed make an error! AK off won about 36% of the time. (not 21%..sorry, I looked at seat 10 on TTH, instead of seat 11).
I wasn't even thinking when I typed in 21%, because intuitively I should have known better. I definitely see how you think they were all flawed.
Other than that, I am sure they are correct. The pocket 44 example I did real quick, but I am pretty sure it is accurate. I have read posts on other groups how flopping a set of AA's only holds up about 70%. And from what I recall this is a good ballpark # based on my olders sims.
While it's easy to intuitively think about some of these problems there are many factors going on that we may or may not even think about. Such as backdoor drawouts when flopping a set or 2 overpairs vs. your set giving your opponents 4 outs or getting bluffed out when holding AA(occassionally). I am a firm believer in sims..and if you set them up properly, with opponents that mimick real life play they don't lie.
AA wins about 65% of the time with 2 limpers in late postition by the way. I purposely gave you the mid positions results so you wouldn't be so optimistic, especially after reading about how you view small pocket pairs.
I agree I was somewhat pessimistic, just in my experience I have not done well after dropping below $500.00. (Basically you can play 1 good hand in this spot from round 4 on). So why chance marginal winners? AK type hands only win about a small bet on avg...This is huge in a ring game, but in the grand scheme of early tournament stages, I would consider it MARGINAL vs. your risk!
I also totally disagree with your tight image theory. I have tried this and it doesn't work overall. It is human nature to think that someone is stealing in poker. Unless you raise from early pos, you always seem to get action online..ring or tournie.
It would be nice if you could sim some of these stack size situations, or even the hands you play in each round and in each different stack size situation..But I can't....Im not sure if the tournament ver. of Turbo supports this, but I would doubt it.
Ive been doing sims for years(off an on), the results don't format too well on this site..If you are curious on any more specifics, you can email me for the results.
(Most of my sims are for tighter games...25% players seeing the flop..)
You have done well so far in these tournies, so it is harder to convince you, but for others who haven't I think this is sound advice..
When you say a set of 4s only holds up about 65%, what does that mean? We were talking about 4 opponents here, not 9. We were talking about a 4 on the flop, plus 2 other random cards. If we're going to discuss this in terms of EV (rather than straight wins going to the river), then we have to factor in all those flop, turn, and river bets. We can't let double-gutshot backdoor straight draws play for free on the flop when counting bets, but let them see the river when we're counting win percentages.
How are you selecting the opposing hands? Are only good ones chosen, or 2 random cards? Presumably, the thing to do is to select hands from the higher end of the scale, but not so good they would have (likely) raised preflop.
It sure seems to me that my sets hold up a lot more than 2/3 of the time, and I've heard that AA wins about half the time against 4? players, and that's just preflop, not after flopping a set. Hard to imagine that the win rate only goes up to 70% after that.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The beautiful part of Turbo TH is that you can give your opponents random limping hands. (a few of them sometimes limp with big pairs like 20% of the time just like real life).
I would never assign them hands. It would affect my overall results too much. For example if I gave a guy in mid position KQx, this would differ greatly then if I gave him A4x in the pocket 44 example.
I would also never let any profile go to the river for free in my sims..The profiles I used were a mix of average and tight players...If these tight profiles could actually play on Paradise, they would beat at least the $10-$20 on down.
There was nothing tricky about the profile that held 44. It never slowplayed. And although a few of the opponents might have called with overcards, they would never call a bad flop with garbage.
However you didn't think it through the number of opponents through enough.
The sim was to one to the left of the button. (1 player and 2 blinds remain to act).
Therefore the avg number of players seeing the flop would be about 6.x (including yourself).
The post is off track now, but I resimmed 44 while typing this post and my win rate is 65.8%.
A set of AA held up 80%, so you were in the ballpark here.
Judging by your posts,I don't think you have done much sim work with the recent advancement in software over the past few years. They are really flexible, and most people who even have the software would be surprised on how much you could really tweak it to do just about anything you can think of.
To be honest, the biggest thing I have learned from my sim results, is not whether or not to play 44, with 3 limpers (marginal situation)...But it was finding out situations that were BIG losers, that I never would have guessed. Just like the win rate with the set of 44's, there are lots of surprises to be found.
Anyways , I highly recommend it.
Here are raw numbers using a pure simulator against opponents using random cards. These are simulated with 250,000 hands.
1) 44 flopping a set against 4 random opponents wins 76% of the time.
2) AA against 4 random opponents wins 56% of the time.
3) AA flopping a set against 4 random opponents wins 84% of the time.
4)AKo against 2 random opponents wins 48% of the time.
Again the key things to remember in these simulations are the opponents are random and that these opponents stay to the river.
Ken Poklitar
These results are biased... Mine do not have all opp. chasing to river..
Your AKo wins much to high because he chases to the river to beat really bad hands on avg.(blindly..without betting).
The 44 & AA example should have more then 4 opponents, because as I previously stated, their are 3 opp. remaining that may call your raise(AA raise).
And the biggest bias of all is that you gave all your opponents random cards (Q7 off?? 26 off?) My opp. all played random LIMPING hands..(55,99, KJx, etc.) These hands have a better chance of beating AA and 44 when they flop a set.
And for those who might want to test my results using TTH, the trick is that you have edit your profile (I used the 10 handed advisor) to muck all his hands when he gets raised...This is how you test limpers only. The you must look at seat 11, and not seat 10. Seat 10 would reflect results from AKo when he was raised and mucked before the flop, which distorts your results..
Seat 11 show your results only when he chose to invest in the hand(limpers only).
Freeze the button on seat 1, and set # of active opponents to 6(counts 2 blinds) for the decision point before the flop.
>>Other pairs also play well, depending upon the >>circumstances. If 4 players limp in ahead of me, I'm >>not mucking any pair. 6 times out of 7 I'll lose one >>bet, but the 7th time I'll win (90% certainty?) 15->>20 bets. This is way positive expectation.
Just for the heck of it, I simmed this exact situation. In a 10-20 limit, pocket fours profited $125. after flopping a set. (6 big bets...12 small bets).
But it only held up 65.1% up the time. Your 90% certainty is way off.
I just don't think its worth it at this stage. Especially since 35% of the time you will have to pay off all the way and be crippled to around $400.00 by the time you hit round 3.
You would win only $300.00 (6 big bets) by the way 65% of the time.
This is really why I grew to HATE these tournaments. The fact that you can't play a ring game style combined with there being NO DEAD $$, creates too much of a luck factor.. They are good for practice I guess. But don't expect to make $20.00 + per hour in the $55.00 buy ins.
I'm not disagreeing with you but how about this idea. What about playing a LITTLE loose (looser than a ring game) on the button in the first two rounds when you have the opportunity to possibly win a big pot. I see your point but I mostly play it like Greg does but I can abandon ship pretty quickly as well in the first two rounds. I certainly agree with your goal of making to 5 handed with some chips to intimidate your opponents. What I've found is that if you can make it to two handed no matter what you have a good chance to win. A lot of players don't adjust well to heads up play and if you're behind you can get back to even pretty quickly.
How are all of you depositing money into Paradise poker? My credit card no longer works because Visa no longer will permit internet gambling transactions.
According to the US Post office, it's illegal to send money orders, cashier's checks or bank drafts into Costa Rica. Yes, I could chance i. But what if the Costa Rican government gets a hold my Paradise Poker deposit?
Then I went to DHL's web page. They won't accept those same things for international courier service, either.
So what can I do to deposit money into my Paradise account?
Try your debit card.
I would apply for a Mastercard or a Visa Card from another bank or company.
Why don't you just ask Paradise and see what they say. It would be great if you could post their response.
Apparently, it's not Visa in general, but certain specific banks, that are blocking these deposits. So, a different Visa card issued from a different bank may work. I don't know which banks in particular are blocking, nor which aren't. I would think that Paradise should be able to provide you with some kind of list of banks who aren't presently blocking.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
my visa works at paradice. BANK IS WASHINGTON MUTUAL. just set up an account at a bank that does not block .its not visa or master card fault .it will take an act of congress to stop all banks i would assume to stop all tranactions. if that happens we will all find a way around it . in fact we should be thinking about it now . OK FOSSIL MAN YOU ARE FIRST.
I'm having the same problem. I posted about it a couple of days ago. I've tried with two cards, MBNA and First USA. Both used to work, now neither does.
I imagine that sooner or later most banks will no longer process transactions to on-line gambling sites. As this happens, I believe you will find that on-line poker will get tougher and tougher and eventually unbeatable because there will be almost no new money coming in. Basically winners battling other winners while the rake eats away at everyone.
While it is true players can still send a check or wire money to the sites, there is no question that the number of people comfortable doing so is significantly less than the number willing to buy in with a credit card.
I don't know what the problem is, but it seems the solution is easy. The large majority of people that purchase things on Ebay (hundreds of thousands) use a middle man such as Pay-Pal. I don't see how the banks can not let you deposit money in PayPal, then it's transferred to whomever (Paradise, Planet, Highlands....)
If you build it they will come......
....
Paradise has given me the stock answer "There should be no problem in you sending a bank draft as many players do so regularly."
They didn't address the issue of LEGALITY. Is there a lawyer in the house, anyone?
Hi, there's no law that says you can't send money to Costa Rica. But, if your state has a ban on online gambling it might be illegal for you to transfer funds for the purpose of gambling.
As Gator said, sooner or later they'll start processing funds through third party services, like they do now, only with other third party services.
WARNIG WARNIG Killer Fish spotted at Paradise 5-10 table!!
I'm glad they finally spotted you Crazy Jim.
Hey Hey now...this was in response to Nate, but I put it in the wrong place.
As an aside, I apologize to people on paradise trying to speak to me, my chat is off, so I wasnt trying to be rude.
Aslo...HEY WHISK, how'd you like the ASS WOOPIN I laid on you the other day...OUCHY...come to my table anytime champ.
Thanks for the brilliant analysis of my hands. Allow me to help.
To begin with, I posted these hands precisely because they WEREN'T brilliant plays and would probably get some insightful analysis from thinking players. Also, they are OLD hands I played while I was still formulating my ultra-tight strategy for online poker.
Hand #1 (the T2s): After checking with it from the big blind, I catch a flop of A34, with one diamond. I have a gutshot straight draw and runner-runner flush draw.
The flop is bet and once it gets to me, I'm seeing 7:1 odds for my call, and 8:1 if the last player calls. There's a risk he might raise but it's mitigated by the chance he might call, and it's only one more bettor.
The implied odds are GREAT for a hand like this because of the number of other players. See how much money I made on the turn? I personally think this call is a no-brainer. I'll make it every time. Anybody disagree here?
Hand #2 (the ATo): Limping in late position with ATo was borderline for me at the time. It is now impossible for anyone to catch me doing this because I don't do it. However, given that it probably should have been a muck to begin with, I felt that the interesting part of the hand was the TURN, not pre-flop.
Once you get check-raised on the turn after an overcard comes to your top pair, you are rarely in good shape. I felt this was a clear fold and in fact I figure the guy had two pair, maybe even top two.
QTo is a likely limping hand for the button. I think too many people pay off in this situation. This has become a regular part of my ultra-tight strategy, that is to say, folding to a raise when a scare card comes on the turn. If you decide to call them down, it almost never turns out that they were bluffing you.
I find it interesting that people will so gleefully point out a flaw they find and start calling names like little school children. What is the point? Does it make you feel better about yourself? Simply amazing.
natedogg
Hi Nate,
I was just busting your chops, no harm intended. I agree with your strategy completely. I've come to the same conclusions in parallel and it has paid well in th e baby games.
I look forward to seeing you on the system.
-Jim
I just saw an ad in Cardplayer for CCCPOKER.COM which is an Austrian Casino...NON-3rdWorld...and they appear to have licensed the Paradise software. This could be a boon for those worried about CostaRica ( myself included)
CrazyJim is right. The software is very similar to Paradise. The site http://www.cccpoker.com appears to be owned by the Concord Casino in Austria (probably the nearest thing Europe has to the Mirage or Bellagio). certainly, the European players will all of heard of the Concord. However, and unfortunately, the connection to the site seems poor at present.
What the flip does being in a third world country have to do with anything? Do you think there's a bunch of monkeys in loinclothes operating the systems?
There is no protection for online gambling regardless of what jurisdiction the game is run, being that it is illegal in most parts of the US.
They run out of Costa Rica because it is legal for them to.
LOL
and now that they finally got fiber optic connections more and more gaming sites will move to costa rica because the taxes are way lower than in antigua and other gaming friendly countries
HINT: If they are located in a law abiding country the LOCAL LAW can handle any issues of wrongdoing. Do you think if something happened with Paradise that CostaRica is going to help?
Badges? We don't NEED no STINKING BADGES!
HINT
give me an example of ANY legal action that ANYONE has made the goverment of the country where a gaming site is located?
the resource you have against the sites is not the goverment of the country where a site is located but rather the credit card processors that the site use because basically any gaming charge can be easily charged back (sometimes they obviously backfires on honest sites which suffer from the classic US mentality of "I will see you in court" )
if anyone is thinking about a legal sue think it twice because gaming ofitially (of course stating that is useless) is illegal in the US so I don't think you can beg the US goverment to help you in a law suit in a subject that they clasify as illegal
I think this has something to do with the Costa Rican connection...
CCCPoker is definitely NOT using Paradises software. They have, though, tried to copy Paradise at the best of their ability (which isn't much to cheer about...), but it's all on the surface. Their software is WAAAAAAY behind Paradises, and it really is sad to see how they have absolutely no self-respect or ideas of their own, and only rips off Paradises look and layout straight off. Menus, everything, same as Paradise. Looks, I say, but not feel. DEFINITELY not feel...
Actually, I suspect it might be the same software that 4 Knights Poker uses, in another shape. I'm not sure, though, but I remember that that was what I thought when I first tried it out. I couldn't affirm this, though, since I couldn't connect right now.
A new Paradise look-alike with 4 Knights feel... In what way is this making the online poker world better? In no way, would I say. It's just sad to see. This place will, hopefully, be more or less forgotten before anyone even knew about it. There are better places out there competing in the cyber-poker world. Let's stick to the originals.
The only thing going for them, right now, is that they claim that they will be offering pot-limit. This might attract a few players. But then the big sites will start with pot-limit too, I'm sure...
They do offer Draw Poker and 5 Card Stud also.
But the look-alike, wannabe thing -- that's really sad... Sad, sad, sad...
-JDS
That's a pretty exact copy. Even if the SW use is illegal in the US and Europe, the SW is still completely COPYRIGHTABLE. So if they DIDN'T copywrite it that was foolish, If they did, then no copy of that sort will hold up, the infringer will be very sorry eventually.
I doubt it's a copy, I have a feeling it is a license.
I emailed Paradise and they responded (sorry I deleted the original email) by saying that they do not license out their software.
I think CCCPoker used the same English menu screens as Paradise because their knowledge of the "English" language is poor.
It's more than language, I tell you. It's such an obvious looks rip-off that you almost feel like crying. It's just that the feel is far from a rip-off. It's not as good by far. I do think that it is some licensing software (mabe the same as 4 Knights, because to the best of my recollection, it had the same feel) molded into a Paradise-look. But that's just a guess.
I e-mailed them and told them what I thought, and hopefully that's why they seem to be down right now, while they're following my advice and get their own look and identity (you can always hope, for their sake and for ours... ;-) ). By the way, I haven't gotten any reply...
And CrazyJim, I take it that you haven't really tried it yet.....right?
C ya!
-JDS
I wouldnt bother asking Paradise myself, if they are being ripped off copyrights-wise Im sure they'll go after the offender.
The fact it is so IDENTICAL visibly and then advertised BLOWS MY MIND if its a blatent ripoff.
For a commercial business, with high visibility, like a well known casino to get itself in such a situation is amazing.
From what I saw, its a direct copy, so "looks-wise" I dont think it's second rate, not when we regard paradise's interface to be the best, right?
You're right. And you're right. It does LOOK good. But the sounds... they are TERRIBLE! That's probably the biggest factor making the "feel" so much worse than Paradises. But the animations also seems a little more "sluggish" than at Paradise -- I tried to compare the two without sound (boy do these programs eat system resources...).
By the way -- the reason I couldn't get in was that an upgrade popup message appeared BEHIND all the other windows... Once I discovered this and updated the software, everything worked fine and I could log in.
It's not that it's a bad site. It seems as good as or better than many poker sites out there, but the bottom line is: a copy is still a copy. They would be looking pretty good if they had their own identity and personality.
And let's see if Paradise takes any action...
Regards,
-JDS
Anyone ever looked at Paradise's rake structure ?? Well here it is if you havent
Tables of limits $2/$4 through $10/$20:
2-3 Players: $1 when the pot reaches $20
Maximum rake $1
4-5 Players: $1 when the pot reaches $20
$1 when the pot reaches $40
Maximum rake $2
6+ Players: $1 when the pot reaches $20
$1 when the pot reaches $40
$1 when the pot reaches $60
Maximum rake $3
High limit tables of limits $15/$30 and $20/$40:
2-3 Players: $1 when the pot reaches $40
Maximum rake $1
4-5 Players: $1 when the pot reaches $40
$1 when the pot reaches $70
Maximum rake $2
6+ Players: $1 when the pot reaches $40
$1 when the pot reaches $70
$1 when the pot reaches $100
Maximum rake $3
Low limit tables of $0.50/$1 and $1/$2:
2-10 Players: $0.25 when the pot reaches $5
$0.25 when the pot reaches $10
$0.25 when the pot reaches $15
$0.25 when the pot reaches $20
Maximum rake $1
One-on-One tables:
2 Players: $0.50 when the pot reaches $20
$0.50 when the pot reaches $40
Maximum rake $1
Ok ,the point is that if you take an average of the average pot size of each different stake level ( assuming full tables only for the purposes of this exercise,I did it for 1/2 hour and came up with the following
20/40 $221 15/30 $161 10/20 $113 5/10 $59 3/6 $35 2/4 $27 1/2 $13 50c/1 $8
Now take these average pots and work out the average rake taken in each case according to the structure reproduced above and you come up with the following rake percentages......
TABLE AVE POT AVE RAKE %AGE
20/40 $221 $3 1.36 15/30 $161 $3 1.86 10/20 $113 $3 2.59 5/10 $59 $2.9 4.19 3/6 $35 $1.75 5.00 2/4 $27 $1.35 5.00 1/2 $13.6 $0.66 4.85 50c/1 $8.3 $0.415 5.00
CONCLUSION
The smaller players particularly 3/6 and 2/4 are paying more than 3 times as much rake as the 20/40 players or conversely are losing 3 pots to the rake for every 1 pot lost on the 20/40s , considering that there are only two each of the bigger tables and many many of the smaller ones its not hard to see who Paradise's bread and butter customers are and how disgustingly they are rewarded on a relative basis.
I have been a 3/6 player for some time and when I looked at this I wanted to puke !!
COME ON FOLKS , LETS STAND TOGETHER AND GET SOME EQUALITY HERE OR ELSE LETS START SUPPORTING SOMEONE ELSE WHO DOES TREAT US FAIRLY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry , this message was condensed and didnt come out in the format intended,here is the important part
TABLE ....AVE POT ...AVE RAKE..... %AGE .. TABLE ....AVE POT ...AVE RAKE..... %AGE
20/40 ............$221.......... $3...........1.36 ................ 15/30 ............$161 ..........$3.......... 1.86 ............... 10/20............ $113 ..........$3 ..........2.59 ................ 5/10 .............$59............. $2.9 ........4.19 ............... 3/6 ................$35 ...........$1.75 .......5.00 ................ 2/4.............. $27 .............$1.35 .......5.00 .............. 1/2 ................$13.6......... $0.66 .......4.85 ............... 50c/1............ $8.3.......... $0.415 ......5.00 ................
Your calculation are flawed since you've ignored the breakage. The general conclusion are correct.
THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!!! LET'S MAKE IT FAIR AND MAKE THE RAKE $3 FOR EVERY POT AT EVERY LIMIT! WHY SHOULD LOW LIMIT PLAYERS PAY LESS FOR THE SAME SERVICE AS HIGH LIMIT PLAYERS!!??!?!??
PLAYERS UNITE!!!
-JDS, RAGING LIKE A GODDAMN HEDGEHOG!
Not only do they cheat the player, they are secretly killing everyone on the ungodly rake. WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!
Are you insane ? That would make the rake for 0,50/1 pots about 60 % on average.
Do you think crying about the rake to the "Big Brother" of poker will make any difference? No Way!! I have been playing for 50 yrs, the rake then was .50cents per half hr,per player. We cried about the unfairness of it all.As the years went on and poker grew tenfold so did the rake.The bottom line is Greed,explained away by "The Cost of Doing Busness". Whatever the traffic will bear.
Once you decide to play,be it OL or casino its all over. You can quit or go someplace else to play. You will always come back to what is most comfortable for you. What is most comfortable for the player is a whole other discussion. If you continue to play,accept the rake, its there. Stressing about will effect your game in a very negetive way.
Hi, I've got no worries about the PP rake myself : ) I win, and at the low levels the rake is usually only 25 or 50 cents, the pots seldom reach the 1 dollar rake level.
I'm being about as serious here as a raging hedgehog is a menace to those poor cars, peacefully striding along the winding country roads in 110 mph, that it so brutally attacks. But I'm trying to get through a serious point, lurking there behind the ironic surface.
What I was trying to get through is that, hey!, those high limit players are actually paying more than 7 times as much as the $0.5-$1 players, e.g., from what I can see.
I guess a $0.5-$1 table costs as much (or little) for paradise to run as a $20-$40 table, yet they pay more at the $20-$40 table and less at the $0.5-$1 table. Should I as a $0.5-$1 player be complaining about THAT? Well... I would guess not. Is the rake too high? Now, that's another question. And I must say that I don't know. Not a clue. We all like to pay less and get more, of course. If it is unreasonably high, lets hope that the exploding field of competitors springing up right now in the cyber-space can cure that.
By the way -- I haven't thought much about the rake, because I'm "only" paying in lesser winnings... It would be interesting, though, to know how much less...
And maybe it would be fairer with an hourly fee, instead of a rake, equal for all limits. You don't pay more to the bank when paying a $500 bill than you do when paying a $50 bill, right? Anyway, I'm sure this is a very intricate issue, and I'm not really familiar with it, so please, those who are, enlighten me!
Regards,
-JDS
Actually no - the 20/40 players payed on average 1,x percent, while the lower levels payed a larger percentage of the pot as rake.
Say at 1/2 you have a 20 dollar pot - you pay 1 dollar rake = 1/20.
Say at 20/40 you get a 300 dollar pot with 6+ players - you pay 3 dollars rake = 3/300 or 1/100, which is far cheaper that the 1/20 at 1/2 tables.
The lower limit tables pay a much steeper rake than the high limit tables.
The rake is what motivates PP to provide a good, stable product - while I'd prefer no rake of course : ) , I realise that without a rake PP could not make money. An hourly fee equal on all tables would hurt the low limit players and favour the high limit players.
As a side note - at the lowest limits many pots are taken down before they reach rake territory, I've played in about 2500 hands on the 0.5/1 tables and have only been raked the 1 dollar max 56 times.
Yes, lower limit players do pay a larger rake (as a percentage). However, the opponents in general are not as skilled, which somewhat compensates for the proportionately higher rake.
However, on Paradise Poker 90% of the 3-6 players are not total fish, like in a card room. I think this makes the lower limit games hard to beat on Paradise Poker.
Conversely, at 15-30 and 20-40 you have the best players in world fighting it out. Good luck if you play there. I hope you win if you do.
My choices are 5-10, 8-16, and 10-20.
See you at the tables! Bob J.
The skill level of players compensates for the rake? When donkeys fly.....
What he's talking about is the fish paying off bigtime when you connect, thereby increasing the pot more than you'd normally expect.
Hiya victim:
You are making some mistakes about the 2/4 game ---
The rake is a step function, not a smooth curve. The average is lower than $27, I did it for much longer than 30 minutes, it is closer to $20. If half the games cost lower than $20 (0 rake) and half cost more (maybe $1.20, assuming that occasionally you will see a $40+ pot), then the cost of rake is .60 on $20, or 3%. Compare this to live, like AC, where they take much more plus tips, etc and this is not so bad.
Mark
Paradise charges what they can to maximize profit, like any good business. If they charge less, they might get more business; if they charge more, they might get less business. It is their decision to set the charge in a way that maximizes profit, given these parameters.
If they charged an average rake of 5% in the 20-40 games on the entire pot, those players wouldn't play. They would lose that business, and make no profit on it. If they charged the .50-1.00 players a flat fee of $2 or $3 per pot, they would lose those players as well.
The cost of doing business for Paradise is 100% identical on every table. 1-2 HE is no cheaper to run than 20-40. In that sense, the money paid by the players ought to be the same, right? In some ways, that would be the fairest solution. However, this fairest solution would not maximize Paradise's profits.
Look at their tourneys. In the lowest limit games, they collect $10. In the highest, $90. The format, structure, and starting chip counts are identical in every level of game. Why does Paradise charge 9x as much to higher limit players? Because they can.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
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They are in it for the money. They are entitled to a rake, and their's seems reasonable to me. There is no toking and no jackpot rake, and most casinos charge even more than this, I believe. If you don't think its fair, you have recourse. Don't play. No, I am not a partner in Paradise, and in fact have had run-ins with them on other matters. But if you don't want a rake, buy some beer and chips and start a home game.
Anybody else notice how good the games are at Paradise this week?
They once sent me an e-mail explaining how from time to time the action gets better after they do a big ad campaign..Then it kind of dies off after the loosies go busted.
A vicious cycle.
The problem is I never see them advertise with the exception of poker magazines every week.
Does anybody know if there is any truth to this? Or is it just a credit card payoff cycle of some kind that happens every month or 2?
Seems to explain all the fish i've seen this past week : )
Funny enough I have noticed a number of new, poor players at Planet just this week. It may simply be that I have not come accross them before but I doubt it.
been easier...i finally got into black again last weekend for 5 months of playing...definitely looser , more bluffing, (or desparation betting...???why...gl
I think anybody who has played on PokerPages warm-up tourny's has to agree that there are an awful lot of people who like to run their mouth because they have know that they dont have to back it up I am talking about weak players also like "ToDaRiver" and "crazyjim" any other annoying j#*k-offs you can think of?
Weak? 6 rnd 1 top 5's, 2 dozen top 20's, and top 20 finish in all but 2 of the twelve shots at rnd 2 I've played.
Not to mention 87 tournies at Foxwoods, with 43 in the money placings.
Maybe it's just talkin the talk, cause I'm walkin the walk. Come to Foxwoods Thurs and kick my butt wiseguy.
People on pokerpages think they own the chat line, I happen to enjoy talking to friends, and we talk some shit, so what.
Poker needs a new element..."TRASH TALK" (tm)
And you are lying about your finishes. Why do you feel the need to exaggerate?
You are an idiot....I've played for one of my freinds after I got in on numerous occassions....he works at odd hours that keeps him from playing as often. I play his account....so shoot me.
Instead of worrying about me and my record, why dont you concentrate on perfecting your own skills....I dont see YOU on pokerpages wracking up good results.
Actually, I never checked the results, it was a bluff and you folded.
Actually no, I just told you what was what. You seem fixated on me, do I have to see if the stalker-law applies? I didnt say all the results were from the CrazyJim nick.
I called YOUR bluff and YOU folded, where is YOUR big results as a superplayer on pokerpages? Alot of talk and no action.
Im in the 20-40 game play$ there alot as well, feel free to come by and show everyone how superior you are. Or just look for me on paradise and slapme around, Ill be waiting talkman.
Actually, my results on the PokerPages tourney's have not been too spectacular I have played in about four and my best place is 22 worst 70 something. I think the major problem in these events is that there are too many poor players with nothing too loose. The game is more luck than skill.
Before you disagree, It is defeinately true that poor players are your wet dream opponents in no limit... RING GAMES. If they suck out on you, reach into your pocket, get more chips and nail em next time, if you are good and they suck, there is no way they are leaving with your money.
But In tourney's one bad beat and you are gone. The fact that there is nothing to lose in these games, makes players much looser early on. I see all in moves soon as it hits no limit, multiple payers all in on a single hand, calls with very weak hands, what can you lose? All four times I got busted out in these games, I distincly remember being the heavy favorite. The last one, I bet into a rag flop with pocket KK and get beat by A-10. In tournamnets a lot of times you have to make bets to win the hand right away, you don't want to risk going out, but the players online are many more times less likely to fold than if the game was real life and for real money.
The way I see it is you can use two strategies to win in this game. Play very tight and avoid going broke early. You can survive half the field by folding almost every hand. You need to pick up chips and not get beat. This sucks because unless you get lucky, and flop the nuts, when you get down to the compettition, you wont have chips to play. For example, one tourney about the twentieth hand or so, I get AA, raise, another player raises all in, and two callers! What do you do? Go all in against three others and risk going out very early or muck. Well I muck it, because I dont want my Aces four handed facing a full board for only 1200 in chips. You have to survive to make the money, and 1200 chips now does not guaranteee you dick. I didn't wait around for an hour to get into the game to go out in fifteen minutes (under the old format). Do you see what I'm talking about? This is no way to win.
Or you could play equally loose, spend a couple minutes like a maniac trying to build a stack and if you get lucky then play real poker, so to give your self a chance to win. If you bust, oh well, next. I once played in a Tourney at the Orleans with Oklahoma Jhonny Hale. It was a $20 buy in no limit game with $10 rebuys for the first half hour. Do you know what he did? He went all in every hand. The cards didn't matter. He busted like four or five times, but you know what, at the 30 min mark, he he gotten lucky and had a huge stack. He made the final table. Well, I don't have the time to play that many events on PokerPages, and treat each and everyone as if it was the real thing and I had $10,000 hard earned bucks on the table. Thats the best practice I'll ever get.
Someone once broke down the real life EV for a good player in these games ($10,000 prize), and it was like .25 a tourney. (also consider only one prize a year, so most players will never achieve the long run and their EV.)
If you still think that there is more skill than luck involved in that particular game, we'll take a survey, should be interesting.
First, don't ever muck AA preflop, unless the situation is such that you'll muck blind because you can muck your way to a win. If you need to lose 1 more player to win a seat in the next round, and you've got a ton of chips, you can just muck everything and let somebody else go broke without your participation. That can be the best strategy. Other than those type of unique and unusual situations, NEVER fold AA preflop, NEVER.
Second, Johnny Hale really isn't a very good player. He may have been in the past (I wouldn't know), but the few times I've played with him he has appeared very weak and somewhat loose. Even if he were great, his strategy, that you described, of going all-in every hand, is weak, and shouldn't be done by anybody trying to play their best possible game.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
In a money game, never.
In a tournament, to give yourself a chance to win, you must make it to the final table, you must not go out early. Chips you have are worth more than chip you 'may' win.
In this situation, first round or two of the tourney, I had about T300 (starts with about T320) theres a limper or two and I raise the pot (30 or 40 or wahtever) with AA. Player after me raises all-in (around 300) another two players call all in. The pot is around T1000.
My predicament is that if I call, four players will see all five cards end of story. Heres what i figure I am up against. The initial all in raiser, could be on a steal so he could have two random cards, but one or both of the two all in callers have to have big hands, or they are insane. Both hadn't entered any pots, so there is no reason to believe they are maniacal. I have a feeling that one of the other guys has Aces too. If that is the case, then we split when aces hold up (with outs to a set killed), that means I am calling T300 to win about T300, or bust. If I'm wrong, then I'm still not a real big favorite against three other random hands that are getting all five cards.
Best case, I call, and win the T1200. How much closer does this put me to winning the tournament than having T270? the blinds are still small, and there is a lot of action. In no limit I want to go broke with a big edge not a small one.
I can muck this hand and no one knows what I held. It's too early to go broke with any hand.
I'm not too sure how to convince you, but there is no way you fold AA here, or anywhere early in a tourney, preflop.
Yes, if somebody else has AA, then you probably only have a small edge over the field. But, that is a worst-case scenario that will happen very rarely. If this were a table of champs, then yes, the second caller almost has to have AA, but this is pokerpages, so the second caller might have as little as a small pocket pair, or even K9o. If you want to consider the AA vs. AA and 2 others scenario, at most it will occur 5% of the time (if booking action, I'd gladly take the under at 3%).
When nobody else has AA, you probably win here close to half the time, and are getting paid 3:1 on your money. While it's true that you must survive to reach the payout, it's also true (at this stage) that you must accumulate chips to reach the payout. You simply cannot pass up an opportunity with this much expectation, and still expect to make the money (final 4 or 5 spots, in this case). There simply won't be enough better opportunities in the future. Heck, there's a good chance you'll never even see AA again the rest of the tourney.
It's clear you're not likely to change your mind, but IMO you're way wrong on this issue. I'm pretty sure that if Zee, Sklansky, Malmuth, Brunson, Caro, Cloutier, or any other expert you pick were to chime in here, they would tell you that folding AA preflop early in a tourney is a HUGE mistake, no matter what the circumstances are. It is hard for me to even IMAGINE a scenario, however contrived, where it is correct.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Cloutier wrote: "If you always limp with AA, you will never go broke with AA." We all know that you shouldn't always limp with AA. I think the point Cloutier was trying to make was that there is no reason to bust out with AA, just because it is a strong hand preflop.....
I agree 100% that that it is a very rare chance that you are against AA, in most cases (in the case I described, I'd say its up to about 50/50). I have to disagree, that you will win 50% of the time against three random hands and a full board. I would guess that it's closer to a third (35%).
In this situation if i was able to cover and have like 50 or so chips (enough for two more rounds) I think it would be an easier call, because I'd have an edge and a chance if I busted. If nothing happens in the next twenty hands or more, I gave it my best. If I'm all in, erything rides on a hand where I read to be a fractional edge.
I think tournaments are more about picking your spots than pushing small percent edges. I'm sure we both agree on that. This is a great hand in an equally poor spot. In pokerpages, I think I can fold and find a better spot easily and you don't need AA to find it, that spot can come with 45s. I could be totally out of line. I am split 70/30 on my thinking if this is the best play in this spot.
My major point is that there are no strong hands in a multiway pot pre-flop. I don't want to put all my chips in with 5% edge early on, when the fish are biting. I believe TJ probably has done the same, to make the final table so many times.
Curious to how the hand ended? All-in raiser i think had the KJc, first all-in caller did have the other two aces and second all-in caller had QQ. The third queen made it a winner.
Without being results oriented, I think I did make the right move in this hand. That was more based on my read that the other AA was out there. Since it was online and I knew my oponnents for only about fifteen minutes, I admit it was more a lucky guess than a read.
Anyway, what I'm more interested in, is your take on the luck vs. skill factor in the wild, free, pokerpages tourney. Whats your guess of the amount of times a top player should place in the top five in a round one event?. 1 in 5, 1 in 10 .......
This thread is getting into issues having nothing to do with internet poker as such, so I'm moving it to the Tourney forum.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
its my guess that you started to day dream after the muck,what was the flop?you failed to update us on that point so i would think that you did have the best hand or else we would have read of what did take that pot.perhaps you play to tight early when the loonies are loose,i must agree this was a poor call,while also knowing that as the number of callers grew your edge fell.
No I agree with you, there is more LUCK in these particular tournies, way more people of poor skill than you'd ever see in real$ games. It's like nolimit kindergarten.
The only way you can consistently do well is to have much higher skil than there avg of the tourny, and run and survive the gauntlet of idiots taking shots.
I agree with you completely.
It is nothing more than cheating to play for your friend. It would be unfair to the rest of the players if you were to win a seat for your friend in the Round2 or round3 events. If your friend does not earn his own spot he does not belong in any round.
Maybe this is some collusion thing where you get a few people you know in, then dump chips.
Maybe this should be brought to the attention of Mark.
I was playing round 2 this past Sunday where the following occurred. The tourney had just started.
An observer named "Pokerpages" who identified himself as Mark came into the room and said hi to one of the players. That player did not reply. "Pokerpages" said hi again. This time the response, was "Mark this is blah (his name), blah( the one Mark said hi to) is driving somewhere and I am playing for him today."
Mark did not mention the issue about what had just happened. Who knows if he sent email to the original player or not.
So this happens. It kinda sucks but it does happens. Hopefully it does not happen in Round 3 but who would be able to prove it if it did.
Ken Poklitar
Well, I dont know if this counts as numerous, but I checked the tourney results and CrazyJim qualified for round two a total of 4 times. (Jan 23, Jan 30, Feb 22, and Mar 7). As for him playing under a friend's name to get him into the next round, in my opinion, is blatant cheating. Since it is a free tourney why would you play under someone else's name? So much for a tournament being run honestly. I wonder how Jim would feel if others were doing the same thing?
Mathguy, Thanks for the response.An answer to your intresting comments is on the way. Bill
Lots of people are doing the same thing.
You can't be in the same tourny, but if Im already qualified on say Tues, and my freind has yet to Q, I can play his account at times he's at work to try and get him into the weekend.
I don't see how this is cheating, at no point am I getting two shots at the well on the weekend...like having to ID's playing both in the same Sat and Sun tournies...and Im SURE their are people doing THAT btw. It's too easy to do, I can't imagine it isnt going on. Just like having two seats on a Paradise table from two ISP's but they are both YOU. We all know it's a possibility.
Just cause others are doing it doesnt make it correct to do so. According to you, since it is a free tourney, and others are doing it (so you say), doesnt mean that it is acceptable. Guess the previous posting just adds fuel to those "conspiracy" theorists who believe that internet poker isnt on the level. Congrats on proving their Point Jim.
Sorry Jim, but I disagree with you completely about the correctness of playing in someone’s place. Those players with prior experience playing your friend are now unknowingly facing a different person with different playing skills and habits. Playing decisions based upon their prior experience will no longer be accurate. After all, an important element successful poker has to do with misdirecting your opponent into believing something, which is not correct. Yours is definitely an act of misdirection.
As for your position, I can see only two alternatives; playing in your friend’s place is an act born of ignorance about the importance of misdirection or an intentional act of deception. Since you claim to see nothing wrong with playing in someone’s place, and I see no reason to question your integrity, then I can only assume this is an act of ignorance on your part. As for me, whether born out of ignorance or a lack of integrity, I personally believe such a practice is wrong.
Sincerely, William Seabrook
Well CrazyJim which is it? On one side of your coin the pokerpages tourny are nothing but luck and a sespool of unskilled players, but give that coin a toss and you rate and brag about yourself on the accomplishments of your results of those tourneys(which may or may not be you playing them).
Also you added even less creditability to yourself buy admitting that you and your friend switch screenames. Maybe it was your friend using your screen name to get you into round 2 OR you guys could have trained KOKO the Monkey to do both of your playing.
Whatever the case the one thing that is clear is that your caliber of play and poker ethics are sub-standard
Now just think if you accidentally won this thing and you and KOKO went to the WSOP. The glares you would be getting would'nt be from the lights above. But who cares huh, a million plus dollars would by a lot of bananas and make KOKO a happy monkey
I am a winning player over last five years. I am convinced that PP used software to break me, because my location is probably not legal in the bible belt. My location prevents me from playing regularly, and I am willing to chance the minimal risk that someone would try to enforce any law against playing online. However, my computer science background allows me to say without question that software can be designed to prevent a user from winning and I am convinced the reason I'm broke is the questionable legality of my location. I have won lots of play money on the site, but you won't see me again unless someone can convince me that I am wrong about this. I am a student of the game, tight aggressive player that wins regularly on trips to the casinos and riverboats, but I am convinced that I will have to move, in order to play regularly online or off. Please respond as family obligations prevent me from re-locating at this time and I am looking for a site that is fair.
Putting aside the question of PP being rigged or not for a second, why on earth would they rig the game to prevent you playing illegally? They want all the customers they can get, and if they were concerned about being prosecuted they would just bar people from playing.
Secondly, despite anything you might hear disgruntled players saying, the game is not rigged. I know this because I win and have been winning for about a year now (about 1.7K playing no higher than 2/4), and know about 6 other winning players. A majority of players lose, though, same as any other casino. Play money is not a guide to the real games. Tighten up.
Chris
thanks for your reply and the others except for John. Maybe you are right, but I play a good game. I had doubled my money when the downturn hit and I tightened up, but I lost with AA, several times with no coordinated board; I lost with KK, QQ, same thing; three times set over set; I played no marginal hands. Then I dropped down a limit again avoiding drawing hands, playing solid, and lost again, dropped a limit same thing. I am a calm person, I don't steam, and I am constantly evaluating my play. But then to top it off when I went broke with Qs Full vs Ks Full that hit on the river, I went over and played with play money and immediately had Four Aces. Like I said, I win in the Casinos; Trump, Trop, Grand Biloxi, Horseshoe Tunica, Bellage, Mirage, etc. so I have had bad runs....but I have walked with the money. I guess I know how easy it is to tweak that software, but it's nice to know some of you are taking it down. Maybe it was a downturn like I've never seen. I don't know, but thanks for your help. I'm always trying to improve my play and I appreciate your input
Are you playing two tables at once, by any chance? If so, you need to anticipate enormous swings. You're often playing three times as many hands as you would in a casino. And I disagree with your post because I, along with almost every other American on Paradise, am also playing illegally. And I've been doing fine. I've been playing on and off for a little over a year now. My expectation is lower than in live games, but that is to be expected. The games are tighter. Good luck in the live games.
Am I playing illegally? I live in Illinois...how do I find out.
I was under the impression that if you are using a phone line (so this would apply to anyone using a modem) to gamble offshore, you were in violation of a federal law. I have no idea if this is true of not. Perhaps someone else could enlighten us.
I agree with Chris however here are my additional comments. The only source of income coming from live ring game for any casino poker room, cardroom or internet site is the rake (most do collect a juice for tournaments though). That is, of course unless they employ players to work for the house. Those days are long gone. Even shills play with their own $ and keep their winnings. They just have to be flexible to move on the spur of the moment. There has been talk about bots online. Paradise has made a statement they have never or will ever use them. If any sites uses bots ( and I'm saying they don't) then there would be the reason for rigging the games as you speak of. I have been a student of the game and a winning player for quite some time now. There have been times where poker was my only source of income. I was like you I just didn't want to put up a substantial bankroll to play the higher limits online. So I put up a small investment in a few sites and start at the lower limits and work my way up. One site I'm only in $150 and my BR is close to 10K! It can be done. I have found that the players that play online are very similar to those in live games. Most are pretty darn bad. This is only my opinion that even the slight above average players will not show a profit in the long run. Online play is different various ways. Although you can pick up tells through betting patterns, you're playing against a name, not face to face. You play more hands per hour so swings can be of greater variance. This can effect any player to certain degrees. I found myself screaming at my terminal after being shown the same trash I've seen for years in live ring games. I haven't done that in years. It proved to me I must always be a student. The tilt factor does not gel with that. You're ok, swallow your pride and don't put the blame where it is not. My own worse enemy at the tables as in life will always be myself if I allow it.
Hi, I agree with Chris and Gene. When I started playing PP I lost about 160 dollars quite quickly. My first reaction was to suspect the PP software, but then I sat down and thought through the hands I lost and the hands I won. After thinking about that for a week or so I realised that I only had myself to blame.
I was far too timid with my good starters and far too willing to go to the river. I tightened up my game, became much more agressive.
The results quickly showed me I was right - I now take down more pots without showdowns , and I susually win at showdown. I'm working hard to maximize my winnings while minimizing my losses.
At any level going on tilt can eradicate your bankroll real fast - even at the 0.5/1 tables you can blow 50 dollars inside of a couple of hours.
Another thing you have to watch out for is the tilt sensation that starts eating away at you after a few bad beats - sometimes you get beat by fish going to the river with trash. When that happens you should congratulate and encourage the fish, play tight and watch as their money slowly winds up in your account.
This happened to me yesterday - I was at a low level table and had three consecutive bad beats to the same player - this player was going to the river on anything, so I said things like "very nice hand" "well played" etc. After a little while I had my money back and the same player was down 50 bucks.
Solid and tight play will help you get your money back.
I find that if I have a few good wins at the start of a session ( showdowns with large pots ) I get a table prescence that allows me to take down many pots later on. I had one session where I was golden the first 30 minutes or so - catching amazing cards - being rolled up etc. I was betting and raising like a madman and took 50 bucks in about 1 hour. After the initial rush of good cards was over I played tighter, but now I had the luxury of people folding their good hands when I represented strength by betting and raising. I also got some nice payoffs when I bluffed, because the players saw me as a winner that session.
On the other hand I've had sessions where I start off getting beat by fish connecting at the river. If that happens a lot at the start of a session the other players will see you as a loser - and will bet more agressively against you and will frequently go to the river since they think you're "having bad luck". When that happens I grit my teeth - play extremely tight, and wind up with the money at the end : )
All in all you have to play a tight / agressive game to win much at PP. If you're at a table and loosing, and you can't seem to get a handle on the other players then leave that table, take a few minutes to get a drink of water to clear your head, and go to another table.
The PP software seems good to me - all my losses can be contributed to either my own mistakes or fish connecting at the river.
I play 7 card stud at 0.5/1 and 1/2 tables at PP.
"I play 7 card stud at 0.5/1 and 1/2 tables at PP."
You are fooling yourself. You can't beat that game long term. Ask anyone who can punch a calculator.
How did you reach that conclusion ?
I make about 20 dollars an hour playing that limit.
I think it is time to change the tinfoil in your hat. John
You should expect a greater risk of short-term bad luck on Paradise (and any other internet site) for two related reasons: (1) the speed of the game increases the risk of short-term badk luck -- more bad beats possible per hour; and (2) the weakest players you see in casinos lose their buy-ins and go broke faster, so a somewhat higher caliber and more aggressive player predominates online, even in $3-6. The $5-10 games are, as a rule, tougher than any $6-12 casino game I've played and many (but not most) are almost on par with the average $10-20 casino game (maybe tougher than those in CA). It's therefore not uncommon for players that win steadily (albeit modestly) even at $10-20 in casinos to see swings of several thousand dollars on Paradise $5-10 and $3-6.
PeterPan says that Chris Alger is a guru of Paradise Poker!He vigorously defends only Paradise(not PlanetPoker since they had cheating proven) and insists that anyone that questions them is a nut. Chris always wins. He also believes that the Bear-Stearns analyst above is a psychotic maniac. He also believes in me, PeterPan!
For the record, I also have an account at Planet Poker and think it's a fine site. As to the psycho-troll's suggestion that Planet "had cheating proven," I have never suggested this and have no idea what he's talking about.
Oh, the archives make a liar of the lover of Tinkerbell!. Planet Poker had its cards read by a program that got plastered all over this place. ALger vigorously defended Planet Poker until he was proven wrong. Abdul then p[ublished an article in the intelligent gambler which verified it to all 2+2 crowd. Then the troll (Alger) slunk away to his CD's and starting investing in Paradise Poker. He's returned here lately. Too bad his integrity hasn't.
Even if it has happenend... once or twice... why being so obsessed with it? The problem is that all (and I'm 95% sure here) of those obsessed with online cheating are losing players, and believe that they wouldn't be losing players if there was no cheating. That's absurd and that's why I never take them seriosuly.
with your computer science background, you should be capable of rational thought. this does not appear to be the case.
Hi: I was wondering if anyone had tried to cas hout at Pokerspot after Mr Boyd's announcement a couple of weeks ago. If so; have you seen any money? Perhaps it's too soon but it would be OK if anyone had something to report. (And please spareme the "howcan uhavefundsatsuchacorruptsite,sucker"-mantra, OK...:-).
TT
I was at their site chatting with someone who told me he had cashed out and everything went fine. This was a couple of dys ago so he hasn't received a cheques yet. They told him 10-20 business days. So I think we will have to wait a little longer to see what happens.
...and a little longer than that since there's no reason to assume they will be writing good checks.
I cashed out $1500 last mon Mar.15.They told me that they would be sending me a cheque and that it would take 10-20 business days -just as Russ statement said.They also gave me some sort of cashout#.I can only hope I get it.If I get it and it doesnt bounce I will start playing their tourneys again and give them another chance.I will note that they said that according to russ statement that I will recieve a cheque 10-20 business days.They didnt come out and say I WILL GET a cheque in 10-20 days but according to Russ's statement I will get a cheque - just sounded a little fishy -but I will give them the benefit of the doubt and wait and see.Hopefully pokerspot comes through.
Let me tell you something IT DOES NOT TAKE 10-20 DAYS TO GET A CHECK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What the hell is wrong with these people, you get our money in 5sec, and you want the better part of a month to pay-- that is insane. Cut a check in 24hrs and fedex the check. Cash out on monday get your check by wed!! If I ran a poker site that would be my policy, and should be the norm. GETTING PAID IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, and the fear of not getting paid is keeping customers away.
This is a message to all the online poker room owners out there
spend $1 today to expedite cashouts (fedex charges etc...) get $1000 over the next few years in rake fees.
If you really need 10-20 business days to pay me, you are a real JOKE!!!! and i dare you to disagree with me.
Hi
I totally agree with you. The most important issue for ANY gaming site should be to treat customers with the respect they deseve. Online poker site owners should especially be aware of this. They are not playing against us, so they should try to stay away from greed. They can earn a lot more by paying out as fast as possible, and have a 100 percent motivated customer support. A happy customer is a good customer.
OddsAlive
I play at HIGHLANDS,and have probably cashed out at least 1 dozen different times.As long as they were for at least $300 they pay the fed-ex charge,and the longest it ever took me to get my check was on the third day.Most of them arrived the 2nd day.
I too play highlands and just last Monday at 2am(tues morn) I cashed out and a cheque arrived fedex Wed morning at 11.Unbelievable.Pokerspot needs 10-20 days?-why who knows.But I still pray I get paid.Paradise and planet pay reasonably fast but nobody beats highlands in cashout speed.
One more thing,what could make a person more confident of getting paid than Doyle endorsing the site,plus he's fun to play with and even more fun to beat.
Ok. I was involved in a pot at Paradise which led one of the players (chopique) to end up harassing me. I won't go into any lenghty discussions now. Please make up you're own mind...
Game #62831081 - $3/$6 Hold'em - 2001/03/28-08:24:23 (CST) Table "Bartolome" (real money) -- Seat 3 is the button Seat 1: fissh ($186 in chips) Seat 2: tommyz ($285.50 in chips) Seat 3: choupique ($108 in chips) Seat 4: Wardy ($83 in chips) Seat 5: coolerhund ($23.50 in chips) Seat 6: oxoxox ($183 in chips) Seat 7: HappyinNH ($173 in chips) Seat 8: Sumner song ($509 in chips) Seat 9: chino74 ($188.50 in chips) Seat 10: C Bass ($423 in chips) Wardy : Post Small Blind ($1) coolerhund: Post Big Blind ($3) Dealing... Dealt to Sumner song [ Td ] Dealt to Sumner song [ Jc ] oxoxox : Fold HappyinNH: Fold Sumner song: Call ($3) chino74 : Call ($3) C Bass : Raise ($6) fissh : Call ($6) tommyz : Fold choupique: Call ($6) Wardy : Fold coolerhund: Fold Sumner song: Call ($3) chino74 : Call ($3) *** FLOP *** : [ 8c 9d 3d ] Sumner song: Check chino74 : Check C Bass : Check fissh : Check choupique: Bet ($3) Sumner song: Raise ($6) chino74 : Fold C Bass : Fold fissh : Call ($6) choupique: Call ($3) *** TURN *** : [ 8c 9d 3d ] [ As ] Sumner song: Bet ($6) fissh : Call ($6) choupique: Raise ($12) Sumner song: Call ($6) fissh : Call ($6) *** RIVER *** : [ 8c 9d 3d As ] [ Qh ] Sumner song: Check fissh : Check choupique: Check *** SUMMARY *** Pot: $85 | Rake: $3 Board: [ 8c 9d 3d As Qh ] fissh lost $24 [ 6s Ad ] (a pair of aces) tommyz didn't bet (folded) choupique lost $24 [ Th Ts ] (a pair of tens) Wardy lost $1 (folded) coolerhund lost $3 (folded) oxoxox didn't bet (folded) HappyinNH didn't bet (folded) Sumner song bet $24, collected $85, net +$61 (showed hand) [ Td Jc ] (a straight, eight to queen) chino74 lost $6 (folded) C Bass lost $6 (folded)
What did chopique have to harass you about?? That you didn't bet on the river and take more of his/her money??
Actually, (s)he made it clear that my reraise on the flop would eventually lead him/her to end up with all my money. Again I won't argue. Yet. Just interessted to know what other players think.
Sumner son(g)
if you don't know why you played this hand poorly pre-flop, flop, and river, then indeed someone else will wind up with all your money.
That said, there's still no need for another player to criticize you at the table, but if you can't handle hearing it, don't play poker because it's going to exist everywhere you play.
Ark
Game #62831081 - $3/$6 Hold'em - 2001/03/28-08:24:23 (CST)
Table "Bartolome" (real money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Seat 1: fissh ($186 in chips)
Seat 2: tommyz ($285.50 in chips)
Seat 3: choupique ($108 in chips)
Seat 4: Wardy ($83 in chips)
Seat 5: coolerhund ($23.50 in chips)
Seat 6: oxoxox ($183 in chips)
Seat 7: HappyinNH ($173 in chips)
Seat 8: Sumner song ($509 in chips)
Seat 9: chino74 ($188.50 in chips)
Seat 10: C Bass ($423 in chips)
Wardy : Post Small Blind ($1)
coolerhund: Post Big Blind ($3)
Dealing...
Dealt to Sumner song [ Td ]
Dealt to Sumner song [ Jc ]
oxoxox : Fold
HappyinNH: Fold
Sumner song: Call ($3)
chino74 : Call ($3)
C Bass : Raise ($6)
fissh : Call ($6)
tommyz : Fold
choupique: Call ($6)
Wardy : Fold
coolerhund: Fold
Sumner song: Call ($3)
chino74 : Call ($3)
*** FLOP *** : [ 8c 9d 3d ]
Sumner song: Check
chino74 : Check
C Bass : Check
fissh : Check
choupique: Bet ($3)
Sumner song: Raise ($6)
chino74 : Fold
C Bass : Fold
fissh : Call ($6)
choupique: Call ($3)
*** TURN *** : [ 8c 9d 3d ] [ As ]
Sumner song: Bet ($6)
fissh : Call ($6)
choupique: Raise ($12)
Sumner song: Call ($6)
fissh : Call ($6)
*** RIVER *** : [ 8c 9d 3d As ] [ Qh ]
Sumner song: Check
fissh : Check
choupique: Check
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $85 | Rake: $3
Board: [ 8c 9d 3d As Qh ]
fissh lost $24 [ 6s Ad ] (a pair of aces)
tommyz didn't bet (folded)
choupique lost $24 [ Th Ts ] (a pair of tens)
Wardy lost $1 (folded)
coolerhund lost $3 (folded)
oxoxox didn't bet (folded)
HappyinNH didn't bet (folded)
Sumner song bet $24, collected $85, net +$61 (showed hand) [ Td Jc ] (a straight, eight to queen)
chino74 lost $6 (folded)
C Bass lost $6 (folded)
Thanks for taking the time to comment. Calling with JT as the first one in isn't textbook play. Let me state in my defence that it was the first hand I played in one hour, and that the game was loose/passive.
The reraise on the flop might be a consequence of me playing a lot of pot-limit lately:-). The way I see it I have six cards giving me the nuts. Two cards giving me a straight, which might give someone else a flush. However if I manage to drive out the players (especially the preflop raiser) between me and Chopique I might also win with a ten or a jack (placing him on an overpair on the button isn't easy...).
Betting on the turn comes automatic. I'm not giving away the initiative here. When chopique reraises I have to give him some credit for actually having a hand. That's why I went for a check-raise on the river.
I think however that the play that really is beautiful here is the player who calls two bets preflop with Ad6, then moves on to call another two bets on the flop (98x, two diamonds).
Holding Chopiques hand (TT) on the button I would definately make it three bets before the flop, hoping to drive out the blinds and the limper. Also it's a good opportunity to test the player who raised in middle position. His reraise on the turn is questionable , to say the least. Why he doesn't follow up on the last card (getting approximately 13:1) is, for me, even more of a mystery.
Fr
Look you played the hand as good or better than anyone else at the table. Choupique is a psycho for raising the turn! He has no chance when the A hits the board. Fissh should have folded when he called, and raised or folded when he called again. With A-6o another psycho though. Choupique should have made it three bets to go b4 flop. Your weakest play was limping in with that pos hand. I love your reraise on the flop, really love it! Not getting paid on the river because you did not bet, well it was a calculated risk so what. Just my opinion.
Please make it easier to read next time, but anyway...here goes.
First of all...I dont like your limping with JTo in early position at all. You should have folded right here.
On the flop there 11 small bets in the pot (if i counted correctly...hard to read). You get a nice flop with you open-ended straight draw, the only thing you should worry when you hit, is when another diamond hits. You're still drawing, and there's almost no chance to get the pot right here, so why check-raise??? The only thing you do is driving out opponents, who you wanted to stay in, and you might even get re-raised, so that your draw becomes very expensive. Check-calling is the only option here IMO.
The turn could easily have helped someone, and didnt help you so why bet out?? I guess that you wanted to steal the pot, after your strong play (in the eyes of your opponents) on the flop. However, the worst thing happend, you got raised...making it even more expensive to draw.
River: Finally you hit...but what?? Now you check??? You played this hand very strong throughout the hand, so your opponents have to fear you have two pair for instance, so it's very likely that they're going to check behind you, if you check. Now you should definetly bet out!
Conclusion: I think you played this hand very poor; i would have played the hand completely different. I would never harrass you however :)
BTW Maybe Choupique got angry because you caught him bluffing :)
Regards, ME.
First of all, there is no doubt that you misplayed the hand. However, ME's advice is bad as well. I would have bet out on the flop. Your hand is a favorite to top pair, and it is worth thinning the field in hopes that a jack or ten might be good if it hits. Betting on the turn is awful. However, after being raised on the turn, I would try for a check-raise on the river. Betting out is for players that don't understand the flow of cards. Unfortunately, the guy didn't have a real hand, so you missed a bet.
On the flop there are five people. The flop most likely didnt hit anyone, except flush-draws or open ended straight draws. With 11 sb in the pot on the flop, even overcards have the odds to call your bet, since most likely they're still good. If someone holds a overpair, you're most likely gonna get raised. So if you say that you want to thin the field, to get tens and jacks out, then you should check-raise, hoping a player in late position bets. However I dont like this idea at all, since you're making it very expensive for you to draw. If you think betting out could be a direct positive EV play (if you get enough callers), you could also be wrong, since there easily could be a flush draw out. So I dont quite understand what you want to achieve by betting out; if you really want to thin the field a check-raise seems the best option, and if you go for your straight, a check-call seems correct. So explain that in more detail plz, why you would bet out on the flop.
We agree about the turn bet, but then.... Three players see the river and you want to go for a check-raise. Why I would bet out is because Fissh is most likely not going to bet, and i easily could be that choupique raised the turn and then check the river, because you've shown a lot of strength throughout the hand. I think by going for a check-raise in this situation you lose a bb in most occasions. For instance a weak ace with the diamond flush draw could easily be raising the turn, trying to get the pot right there, and then checking the river...fearing a stronger kicker. Furthermore, when your check-raise succeeds, you might not be winning more bb then if you bet out, since fissh probably would call one bet (except if he holds the busted flush draw), but would fold if he had to cold call two bets (if you check-raised choupique).
Regards, ME.
BTW I think there are better examples for not playing with flow. And I dont know if you followed the discussion about flow (you probably did), but I'm in the camp that you mustnt always play with flow; you become more predictable if you do. (FLOW+UNPREDICABILITY=BALANCE :))
I've played with choupique before, although I've never seen that kind of attitude.
I do love it when all these low limit players start trash talking, as if the worst punishment they can possibly inflict on another person is relieving them of their 50$ buy in.
The raise on the flop isnt a real good idea, because it chases away the other players in the hand which you don't want to do with a drawing hand. But you were about 50/50 to beat chopique on the flop. I'd definitely raise if it was heads up, because of the chance of pushing him off AK or something.
Chris
He was out of line.
You like many others think they are playing higher limit, which is a different game entirely. You will NOT be able to steal enough pots in these LL games to make the try worthwhile. Re-raising the flop is down right stupid as is betting the turn and NOT betting the river.
First and foremost you shouldn’t have even been in this hand.
Let's see:
1. Preflop you called when you should have folded. 2. On the flop you check-raised when you should have bet or check-called. 3. On the turn you bet when you should have checked. 4. On the river you checked when you should have bet.
Other than that, you played the hand perfectly.
I can't possibly see what's wrong with the reraise on the flop. The field has represented weak holdings. Bear in mind that the preflop raiser checked and that the bet came from the button. Our man has 6-14 cards to improve into what might be a winning hand provided he manages to drive out a sufficient number of overcard combinations. By reraising he also has an opportunity to win the hand without a showdown. Apart from paying for the hand preflop, I don't agree with the critics of the original poster at all.
GG
You tell me how and why you should play 10Jo in early position? Let alone once there is a raise behind.
10Jo is not even playable in middle position with NO raise nor in late position with a raise.
To call UTG with this hand is a waste of money and has a negative EV.
Many will play this hand, and even call a raise with it. Many lose at this game as well.
He didnt re-raise on the flop, he just raised (check-raised). In my post i said i would have just check-called the flop, but now thinking about it, a good second option is to check-raise. JV commented this was a bad advise (check-calling), you should bet out. I think this is the worst advice you can get, because the preflop raiser is still yet to act, so i think betting out is no option. I agree with you that when everyone checks to the button, who bets, no-one has shown strength, so yes, you might want to check-raise. I dont think there is much wrong with that, but I dont really like to bet out on the turn, when the ace hits, because someone easily could have hit and you then have to worry about being raised. And thats exactly why i prefer a check-call on the flop, above a check-raise, because as sumner song said: after the flop check-raise, a turn bet is almost automatic. I dont entirely agree with this, but when he sees it that way, he almost always bets out, regardless of the card that hits, and making it very expensive to draw for himself. He should have checked the turn. On the river I would still have bet out, but again going for a check-raise isnt very wrong, I just think it's again the second best option.
So ok...my conclusion was a bit harsh, but I still think he didnt play this hand max profitable, he played it on the second best way IMO.
Regards, ME.
P.S. If he had any reads on opponents, he might played it terrific, but he said nothing about that, so i assummed no reads.
For all the posters that insist that internet gambling is straight up due to market forces, here is a clip from the NY Times reporting on a Bear-Stearns analyst."A Web gambler's risk is not limited to the games themselves, said Marc Falcone, Bear Stearns's gambling analyst, who estimated that 35 percent of Internet casinos might not pay what they owe or might fiddle with the odds in an underhanded way. But he said gamblers, apparently undeterred, wagered $1.4 billion online last year on casino games, lotteries, horse races and other sports events — a figure that Bear Stearns expects to grow to $5 billion by 2003."
Peter Pan says that internet companies never cheat. Peter says that Tinkerbell would make all the gamblers go away if they did. Tinkerbell would stop 2+2 from accepting advertising dollars from cheating internet companies, too. Peter Pan says that analyst for Bear-Stearns is just a paranoid, libelous nut!
So fly away then and leave it to us fools that are obviously prepared to take the risk.No one is forcing anyone else to play/gamble online.I really cannot see the problem.If you,and many others here like you,are so convinced that it is fixed,you will not get paid,or the RNG are not that random at all then STAY AWAY.It really IS that simple.
Glad to hear that you believe in me! Its so refreshing to know that the world of Never, Never Land(where online poker players always get paid, and never get cheated) has compentent minds like you defending it!
In all fairness they were talking about internet casinos and not poker rooms.
And Marc Falcone "estimated that 35 percent of Internet casinos might not pay". Where does he get his numbers from. Has he played on sites where 35% of internet casinos did not pay his winnings?
Of the 4 poker rooms I have played on, 100% have paid. (of course there is Pokerspot, and those who have $$$ there are still crossing their fingers)
...and DragonPoker. Quickly aproaching 35% eh?
Max,
How many of the poker rooms have one-on-one games? Could you tell me which ones?
Thanks
Peter Pan should get off the musrooms for a second.
I read the entire article at http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/29/technology/29GAMB.html?searchpv=nytToday ( free registration required )
It is an article spesific to online casinos offering slotmachines etc. It does not mention online poker rooms.
There is a huge difference between slotmachines ( which are programmed to take your money ) and poker, where you go against other human beings in a match of wits.
The online casinos are playing against the customers, online poker rooms are making money supplying poker players with an infrastructure for playing online.
Anyone who think they can beat a slotmachine is very very very welcome at my poker table.
I have never ever played against slotmachines, and have played roulette only a few times just to meet the not-so-smart-but-very-sexy chicks that usually hang around roulette tables.
As to the "estimation" from a Bear Stern analyst. When reporters use wording like "estimate" that's reporter speak for "wild guess".
Belive me - if that Bear Sterns guy had said " 35% of all online casions cheat" the reporter would have plastered that quotation on the frontpage of the NY Times.
Another man than clearly believes in NEver, Never Land!
Lol - you've gotta go into rehab man : )
I play on PP, I win on PP, I cash out on PP and get money from PP - nothing more to say.
Tell me - do you play online poker ? If so - why ? If not - what are you doing here ?
Of course he plays online poker. He plays constantly, gets his ass kicked because he's a degenerate gambler and makes anonymous posts with made-up facts in order to create the appearance of a debate about whether something other than himself is out of order.
Peter Pan got cheated....proved it, and flew back to Never, Never Land......
Pan...get your ass over to Paradise...I have a score to settle with you!Tee, hee, hee(I have a new sniffer program!)
Hey, I win at Paradise Poker......I cheat too...What are you going to do about it?
I live in N.Ca and in todays local newspaper appeared an associated press article dateline Las Vegas. It seems a Nevada based company launched a website called "Onlinechess.com". This site lets chess players compete against each other for prises in cyber space. For a $25 entry fee chess players can bet from $2 to $25 per match. It sounds as if people bet on their own skill. The article also said that the Nevada Gaming Control Board continually monitors internet gambling. It seems to me that the appearance of these kind of websites would only help to speed up online gambling. I thought this would be of interest to many of you.
Bill, Grass Valley, CA
In case anyone wants to read it.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010320/tc/internet_gambling_1.html
I have 99 in a short-handed game in Paradise. I open raise. SB calls BB folds.
The flop is K77. SB checks, I bet he calls.
Turn is another 7. He checks, I think that I am in trouble so I check.
River is the case 7.
He checks - I check.
He turns over KK and we split the pot.
Question: with the 2nd nuts on the board, who would have bet the river?
I might be missing something here. How could you split the pot.
He has 7777K You have 77779 He should win, right?
Nope. They both had 7777K.
Dave played the board.
Thank you Jodder for pointing that out. I hate to slip up like that. Glad I wasn't playing today.
I have been getting killed at PP lately! In a week i lost $300 in 1-2 getting killed! Every AK i flop AK8 and always a river 8 with someone playing Q8o something to that effect. every single hand!!! So i just think its bad luck. i deposit another $90 into PP in less then 24 hours i am up 300. only playing 1-2. i have had quads 4 times. boat after boat after boat. isnt that just a little odd??
.
Because then I have experienced the same thing. But I don't believe in any foul play. I'm much more prone to attribute it to psychological factors such as the fact that we tend to remember the bad runs (as "this is not the way it should be!"), and kind of forget about the good runs (because "this is the way it should be — I'm a great player!"; we've probably all have a little of that sucker mentality in us).
Or maybe after winning enough to cash-out, we feel over-confident in our own ability, and tend to play sloppier than we did before.
And — not to forget — there ARE bad runs out there, and when they hit after a cash-out, we remember what we read at 2+2, and our selective memory wipes out any recollections of previous cash-outs after which NO bad run came...
Just some thoughts. Hope you get out of your bad run. I'm waiting patiently for mine to end. I do bang my head against the wall, literally, sometimes though, after an overload of frustration. Could this contribute to me playing worse? ‡-O
Regards,
-JDS
nt
What you describe is a bad streak, and i had a few of them myself (before cashing out, and after cashing out).
I think the real problem with losing after cashing out is what you said: "Yesterday I cash out on PP, then I played with my remaining 250 bucks at 3-6 hold'em and 2-4 7cs."
With $250 playing 3/6?? Geesh, on my really bad days, i lost about 250 playing 2/4! So, when you play with such small bankroll, you could easily go broke, and then it looks like it is the famous very bad streak after cash-out, but you might just had one very bad day, and went broke because you cashed out too much!
I now cashed out several times, and i'm still playing quite profitable. But, I always leave a good bankroll behind.
Regards, ME.
Don Heftolo,
Somber Brotherhood
http://www.desetka.si/somber
SALEM (AP)
In attempt to stifle illgal offshore internet gambling, the Oregon Senate passed a bill Friday (3-30-01) that would make debt collections impossible by prohibiting the use of CREDIT CARDS ,CHECKS,or ELEC. FUNDS TRANSFERS in internet gambling. The measure would also provide relief for credit card providers by limiting their liability for debts racked up by internet gamblers. THOSE WHO VIOLATE THE PROPOSED MEASURE WOULD RECEIVE A MAX. $100,000 FINE OR 5 YEARS IN PRISON OR BOTH. blah blah blah according to Sen. Rick Metsger D.Welchs Or. who introduced the bill Blah blah But because they operate offshore, out of the jurisdiction of any states, internet gambling sites aren't regulated or licensed by any state, witch makes them illegal by default in this country. Their overseas locations also make the companies virtually impossible to prosecute because they are not subject to U.S. law. Withholding their source of income is the best and only way of shutting down such illegal sites Metsger said. blah blah blah, The bill will now be sent to the House for consideration. Sorry about the blah, blah but I type to slow This was on page A5 of the ALBANY (OR.) DEMOCRAT HERALD SAT. MARCH 31,2001
AKAHOLDEM
Internet Gambling
March 2001 Digest is provided by Two Plus Two Publishing and ConJelCo