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Hello all- Happy New Year !
I will be in Vegas from Friday 1/7 until wee hours of Saturday 1/15 in order to participate in the Carnivale of Poker. Will play the opening limit holdem event for sure and then probably just lots of live action.
(Any game Diane is in, is "live'!)
Hope to see some of you there. Come on up and say Hi if you have a chance. I will be the over-weight, middle-aged, short hair, big mouthed broad terrorizing the mid-limit holdem games at Harrah's/Bellagio/Mirage.
Diane
Diane wrote:
"I will be the over-weight, middle-aged, short hair, big mouthed broad"
God, talk about having things in common.
I will be the over-weight, middle-aged, no hair, big mouthed guy
Looking forward to having coffee with you!
Vince.
I'll be the over weight, middle aged guy with hair & shades and telling bad jokes at the table - I'd be the one check raising the little old lady. :-)
I look forward to getting together with both Vince and Rounder and anyone else from 2+2 who happens to be there and is socially inclined.
Page me or find me through the floor people in the poker rooms at Harrah's/Bellagio/Mirage. I will be playing 16-18 hours a day if all goes according to my normal poker routine.
I travel with my faithful laptop also if you want to send an email to arrange a meeting as well.
Happy New Year, Diane
I guess I'll be looking for you at the Mirage.
"I guess I'll be looking for you at the Mirage. "
I know that's your line but I will be looking for you at the Mirage now that Mason has piqued my interest in the Mirage's come back.
Vince
Vince,
I'll be eating lunch at the Mirage and Harrah's and it's not at the buffet. Bring plenty of cash.
Sincerely,
mah
NO computer meltdowns(except for 2+2).
NO terrorist attacks.
NO mass suicides(cults).
Now the onslaught of "I Survived Y2K" type tee shirts.
Disappointing wasn't it. I bought all that tinned food for nothing.
Andy.
I hear that! And what in the hell am I supposed do with all these new packs of batteries I bought in anticipation of The Six-Month Blackout? I'm up to my ass in Duracells.
thats the problem with you city boys. you go out and get the batteries but put them in the wrong place. what are you trying to do, light up your life?
I'm sure Lady Gambler would be interested in taking those batteries off your hands at a discount. She needs a fresh and constant supply for her 10" solemate, BBBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
just curious.... he got suspended at Blair for asking a girl if her prom date ran on bateries.
he's awesome, but not named perry.
take care.
alex
But that was a funny line, I'll have to remember it.
Now you take that back. LG is one of the gang and doesn't deserve that treatment.
Hi everyone,
I am going to be at the COP in Vegas. I plan on introducing myself to Rounder and Dianne and any other 2+2 forum folks that may be there. In the past I have met Dick from Phoenix, Paul Feeney and Fossilman (whom, incidently, I haven't seen much here on the forum lately). I did a little thinking about those meetings and thought that my impressions might be of interest and maybe even some value for future first time face to face meetings.
Dick from Phoenix was in Vegas last spring or early summer. He came to Bellagios. I believe he met David and when David wouldn't talk to him he settled for me. I guess he knew that if David wouldn't have anything to do with him, Mason certainly wouldn't either. so I guess he didn't bother. (BTW- The stuff about David and Mason isn't true but Dick did meet with me.) Dick is a Gentleman. He had me paged. We shook hands and he sat at my table and we talked. I offered to stop playing and go to the bar and kibitz for a while but if my memory serves me correctly Dick was on a Vegas kitchen pass and had to meet his wife shortly He preferred to sit and talk at the table. We discussed , David and Mason, of course. Talked a little about our families. We didn't talk much poker at all. Before I knew it Dick was gone. As quickly as we met we parted.
Last month I played in a Foxwoods Tourney. I made arrangements with Paul Feeny to meet him down there one Sunday. I made sure that I didn't let Z know. I know he hates PF and wanted to stay on Z's good side. Yes, he has a good side. No Brenda it's not his hair. Anyway I found Paul at a 1-5 stud table wearing his Green Bay Packer hat just as he described. I moseyed over to him and gave him a $1 chip that we had bet about my being there on Sunday. He got up from the table and enthusiastically pumped my hand up and down. He had a big grin on his face and he just made me feel like he was glad to see me. I liked that. We walked over to the cashiers cage and stood there for a few minutes. We traded salutations and talked about 2+2 and Fossilman. He hadn't met Fossil yet and we talked about my satellite experience with the big man. We talked for approximately 15 minutes. Not anything specific, not much about poker. Just small talk. Paul then returned to his game and I went to the tournment area.
Fossilman and I had an interesting thing happen the first time we met. I wrote about it on the Tournament forum. We actually didn't meet. He was in the 2 seat and I was in the 1 seat of a NL holdem tourney. I knocked him out of the tourney. He walked off before I could introduce myself. I had a very good idea it was him because of the 3 wierd looking fossil things he keeps in front of him. He is a very YOUNG nice man by the way. Fossil does not apply to his age. The next time I was down to FW, the day I met Feeney, I introduced myself to Fossilman (Greg Raymer). I took him by the arm and led himover to Paul Feeney and intrduced him to Paul. We all stood there for a few minutes and exchanged salutations and made some small talk. After a while Paul sat down and started playing again. Fossil went off to 20-40 Holdem and I went back to the tourney area.
One thing I find interesting about these three meetings is that with each meeting we exchanged salutations, talked briefly for about 15 minutes. Talked a little about the forum but not much about poker. Then we each went on our own merry way. Another interesting thing about two of these meetings is that on later visits to FW I ran into both Paul and Fossil again. On each occaision it was like meeting with an old friend. I felt very comfortable around both of them. As if I had known them for many years. I don't know how they felt but I felt like we were more than acquaintances. Funny because we had only met face to face once before and I felt those initial meetings were a little awkward from the "what the heck do we do know" point of view.
Well that is my little story. Hope it didn't bore you too much. Hope it in someways helps when we meet in the future. I am looking forward to meeting you all.
Vince.
Vince,
Your just a softie in life, but not at the table. Good luck in LV and I'll keep an eye out for the Fossil. I hope you meet everyone out in LV and have some laughs, because that's what it's all about, until you get to the table.
Paul
cop in vegas. you are getting just like PF. i hate you both.
I should be playing some poker during the COP at The Mirage. (For those of you who don't know The Mirage room under the leadership of Donna Harris is making quite a comeback, and in my opinion is the best run room in Las Vegas.) If anyone sees me please say hello. Also, if I can, I would be glad to join a few of you at the buffet. I don't want to set up anything at the moment since I don't know my schedule. But I do expect to get out some.
Vince,
I have met Dick by accident one night at Casino Arizona we were discussing eBay Auction stuff if I recall he was in 1 seat and I was in 3 seat. We player a few hands and he said are you Rounder. I said how did you guess that. It was fun. I wish I was in the game that night but it was during my fuzzy time and shouldn't have even been there but I was impressed with Dick's play and seems to me he carried off a few racks to the cage.
As most know I did meet Big John in LA all 6'8" of him and we had some fun at the Seniors I also had the privilage of meeting Rick N. and his student really nice people. I met Johnny Chan that night too but he was stuck big and not in the mood for conversation :-)
There have been others I have met after the fact like th guy who said Hey I was at that table at Gila River which seat were you in.
So much for the rambeling, it's 1:10am in Chicago and I am wide awake. Looking forward to getting back to Arizona - I sure miss the tournament action. Ring action here is great but my 1st love is tournaments.
We miss you too. The action has dried up at the tourneys with you gone.
JG
Jim I'll be at Gila on wed evening for the HE tournament pls. ID yourself to me OK. I think I know who you are but I am not sure.
Hi,
I was there last night. Looked for you. The only thing really distinguishing from your picture was the wristwatch with black band. Didn't see anyone like that or that I thought was you. I was the guy who flamed out 11th and made a couple short stacks very happy.
I wasn't there last nkght - sick as a dog - flu - I really wanted to go. I'll almost for sure be at casino arizona tomorrow for the NL HE tourmanent.
See ya.
Lots of times we just meet by coincidence. I had exchanged e-mails at least once with Rounder, on some Forum subject, so I knew his name. Then one night, I was playing at Casino AZ and I got into a discussion with this guy about eBay - finally he was nice enough to offer to review some of my listings and help me; he gave me his name and e-mail address, and I recognized the name! I said, "Oh - Are you Rounder?" You have never seen anybody look so surprised - you would have thought I had discovered that Clark Kent was Superman.
Oh, Rounder, I checked my records. I carried lots of racks away because I was down 140 earlier and had to reload - but I did finish up about 100 that night. My notes say that the rest of the players were quite live.
My recollection of Rounder's play is that he was folding everything - I've certainly had nights like that. Anyway, that is an indication that he walks the same walk that he talks.
Dick
rounder only played tight because you were watching. he is a certifed loose player. badger our resident expert on loose players will agree if asked. as i understand it rounder would call a frog out of a well.
You got my number Zee man.
…this past Thursday Rick Nebiolo and his student (I'm not sure how anonymous she wants to be at this time, so I won't call her by name here.) took a little trip down to Oceans Eleven. I met them, and after playing well into the evening we spent some time talking in the lounge. I recognized Rick immediately . The star of the Caro tells video, he had that big screen (well, okay, small screen) presence that surely must have helped the video's casting director discover him. His student was all that he has said, and an extremely nice person too. She was very complimentary about my writing, making me feel a little like a big shot, almost up there with, say, Ray Leitner (Remember him?). But seriously, I could tell that she was a true student of the game, having approached it on a whole new level since beginning her tutelage with Rick. ("But Rick, it was a loose, passive game. It was the player on the button who raised first…")
We talked poker, life, the internet, the state of the cardroom industry in So. Cal. (you know, the cramped bathroom at a certain small cardroom, the important stuff). Rick is a great guy, as you can probably tell from his posts. The bits of poker talk told me that he also plays the game as well as his posts indicate. He was also very good about asking me not how I'd "done" in my game, but how I'd "played" (See the end of my first guest essay here.), which was, uh, a relief for me on this particular day. :-/
I expect to head up to L.A. one day in a week or so and will rendezvous with Rick and "student" as well as scott, who will be causing trouble at CalTech. (Come to think of it, I wonder if that's around the time Paul Feeney's arch nemesis will be in the area. Oh Zeeman…?) Between us we will surely figure out the meaning of poker and the answers to more profound questions like, "Did AlexB get his harmonica?". Stay tuned.
i haven't heard the scoop on the harmonica. and trouble is just my nickname. my real name is havoc.
scott
John,
It was certainly a pleasure meeting you. I hope I didn't seem to tipsy as my student kept switching my half empty cocktails with her barely touched ones when I wasn't looking. She is pretty sneaky which should be an indicator of poker talent.
I was surprised to later learn that you had one of your worst days of the year in poker. I spent most of the afternoon and evening at the next table (we played the 9/18 kill holdem - John was in the 40/80 holdem), and it seemed to me that your table presence was outstanding. If you were feeling any pain I doubt your opponents could tell from your attitude and demeanor. You are writing about the fine points of tilt in Poker Digest and I would guess you are about as tiltproof as they come. So I would say you can "walk the walk" as well as "talk the talk" on this subject.
Anyway, we hope to see you and scott in a week or so or whenever you can get up to Los Angeles.
Regards,
Rick
to buy it for me. Take it easy on scott, John. Scott is riddled with over 5 ulcers. I keep telling him to stop betting only on the long-shots at the track, but he says its the only way he can feel alive. Well, I hope he can learn enough from you to keep up that expensive habit. Of course, you know all about playing poker to fund expensive habits, don't you......
alex
relief for ulcers:
1. avoid stress (horse racing etc. poker is OK)
2. try Pepcid and stuff like that (preferablely see a doctor who knows about ulcers (might need an antibiotic if H. Pylori are suspected).
3. try sexual release (I'll leave him to decide on which form).
that's a start
One day a few months ago I walked into Sandia Casino in Albuquerque. Put my name on the board and started watching a hold'em game. There were two players with a lot of chips in front of them. They were young guys and decked out in Bronco's caps, shirts, and jackets. I started watching them play and I was astonished as to how well they played as their style is so rare in this casino. When I got home that evening I started thinking that one of the guys was probably Guy Downs (GD). I e-mailed him later and asked him if that was him and sure enough it was. I haven't seen him since he won that big jackpot. I can vouch that Guy and his friend play very well.
I'm getting my poker education in a local LV casino,4-8 jackpot poker.My purpose for being there is to move up asap and make money. I don't consider poker recreation. I'm at the 250 hr mark and my game is coming along nicely.However,what screams out at me is the amount I have paid in tokes,jackpots and rake.In trying to improve this scenario,I need some input on dlr tokes.I tip 50C a pot,and avg 2+ pots per hr.What do I get for this fee? The dlrs are pleasnt and mumble thanks,its not their fault or mine that the casino does'nt pay them much,and they rely on tokes.I've lost a few very good hands on mis-deals but we are all human.There have been a few angle shooters and I've never seen a dlr do anything to stop it.I'm always polite and courtious to dlrs,but am considering only tipping when they do something exceptional.
Consider: Even the slowest game gets 20 hands/hour dealt. (It's actually usually closer to 30.) If everyone tipped the dealer .50 (or if the average tip/pot was .50--same thing) then the dealer would make $10/hr+minimum wage+benefits, or well over $15/hour. This is not a starvation wage by any means. So if I tip .50/hand (and I do; $1 if I win a large pot) I am doing my part that the dealer makes at least $15/hr. And that's enough compensation in my book, especially since I'M not making that much what with the rakes (and tokes, and jackpot drain...)
Nothing says you have to toke - I hear Bill gates the richest man in the world who plays 3/6 HE does not toke dealers or wait staff - what a guy - I toke $1 on larger pots - if the dealer is a jerk she gets nothing there are 2 dealers on my s--t list both women.
You have to figure the tokes, jackpot and rake are gonna cost $5 per pot that's $150 or so off the table - money you can't win. So make your pots count.
Stiff all dealers. Dealers deserve to make more money so if you don't toke they will be forced to get an education providing them with a better living that doesn't depend on the handouts of the over taxed customers of poker parlors. Many dealers also smoke cigarettes. Never toke a smoking dealer. They will just turn around and spend the money on cancer producing carcinogens. Second hand smoke will permiate the air causing well meaning non smoking peace loving gamblers to become ill and die prematurely from second hand smoke. Make a New Year's resolution and refrain from contributing to the escalation of death by association. Do not toke smoking poker dealers. Join the cause now.
I look at a dealer toke as a loan I will collect with interest. Most play (poorly) and give back the largess to the generous customers.
Exception to a poor playing dealer is a great playing one. I put the ratio at about 90%(poor)/10%(very good)
I dout that there are 10 Great poker playing dealers in this whole country let alone 10%. Oh you said very good. Make that 15.
Vince.
Tokes are not a loan, they are a gift. Never to return, unless the dealer gets off duty and joins your game.
-Danny
That is what I was alluding to. DUH!
You're right, I glazed over your message a little too quickly. Sorry.
Danny
Me and 2 dealers went out into the parking lot on New Years eve and did a few tokes ourselves. It was delightful. Not since Vietnam was I so *%$*#4-$$. What a way to begin a new year. Oh yes I lost 200 in a 2-4 holdem game i think.
Are you who I think you are Ray Zee?
Nope, not Ray Zee, but now if i see him, i can offer him some maui wowie. as long as it lasts.
In CT, where I play H/L (5-10 to 10-20) most of the time, the rake is so high that you really cannot afford to toke. They pool tokes at Foxwoods, and as far as I'm concerned pooled tokes are simply another form of a rake. Think about it, when you rake the pot, the house collects an amount from potential winnings, takes it to the back room, and a portion goes to paying the employees. When you pool tips, the same thing happens, except that all of it goes to paying the employees. I am sure that the dealers don't really care whether 50% or 80% of their compensation comes from tokes or hourly wages. And, if Joe Shmo tips 1 penny or 1 hundred dollars after winning a given pot, it would have a totally insignificant effect on that dealer's weekly cut. If we all stopped tipping, I guarantee the house would increase the rake in order to keep the same caliber of dealers. So, if there is a difference between a pooled toke and a rake, please explain it to me. Elsewhere, if a dealer stays focused upon the game (ie. does their job), the rake is reasonable (compared to CT it always is), and the tips are not pooled, I'll toke 50c on any reasonable split hand and a buck on a scoop. If a dealer doesn't keep an eye on the game or does something ridiculous, I won't tip. There definitely are dealers on my s**t list, who I will never toke, no matter what. There is enough to pay attention to at the table without having to do the dealers job for them also.
Hello all- In the past I have organized meal get togethers for the group at rgp that travels the tournament trail. Now that I have been frequenting 2+2 as well as rgp, I am also interested in meeting any of you that would like to break bread together.
Two meal gatherings/opportunities have been established and I would like to extend a personal invitation to the 2+2 faithful who will be in Vegas at that time.
I take the liberty of inviting you since I serve as the unofficial/self-appointed hostess of the group. (No one else bothers.....typical men....always leave meals to the women)
So as hostess, you are all welcome to join me and my other internet poker friends.
Breakfast Monday Jan. 10 9:45 am @Mirage Buffet
Lunch Wednesday Jan.12 1 pm @Mirage Buffet
I will be outside the buffet entrance a few minutes before the appointed time. Will be wearing either my green Packers sweatshirt or my red University of Wisconsin Badgers sweatshirt. Tall, short hair, big mouth,etc. etc.
Regards, Diane from Green Bay
Hey Diane,
My son works for University of Wisconsin. Gene mapping project. Got his masters there.
I will try and make the breakfast on Monday. Don't let that keep the rest of you away.
Vince.
I'll try to attend the Wednesday lunch.
SPACE:1999
Hey, Space 1999 is ironic. You just don't understand the British psyche :-)
As for the dumbest, well give me a month and I might get it down to a shortlist of a few hundred.
Andy.
I disagree. That was one of my favorite shows.
In no particular order:
Hot'l Baltimore Supertrain Speak Up America Anything with Alan Thicke Almost anything with Tony Danza(Taxi was good in spite of him) Almost anything with Judd Nelson(ditto) San Pedro Beach Bums Joanie Loves Chachi Fish(starring Abe Vigoda; how many prostate & impotence jokes can there be?) The Shields & Yarnell Hour(one trick pony) Pink Lady & Jeff(no trick pony)
Favorite prematurely cancelled shows:
Homefront Cupid(just recently cancelled, starring Jeremy Piven) 60 Minutes Point/Counterpoint segment replaced by insufferable Andy Rooney
I've got your answer in one word:
Ricki.
n
I have called Binions Horseshoe and they do not even know! I ended up buying the tapes from ConJel for $15 each, but they did not have the 99 WSOP....
Binions doesn't even have the 1999 tape out yet. I understand it will be on ESPN one day - hopefully before the next WSOP.
January 19th on Discovery Channel
Check your local listing for time.
It's posted in the events fourm section
I purchased the 99" WSOP off the internet. I don't remember if I got if thru Conjelco or Gambler's book club. Not to burst anyone's bubble but the video is not very good compared to the 98" WSOP.
Dice
...
1.Ken Shamrock(shootfighting) 2.Igor Vovchanchin(sambo) 3.Mark Kerr(greco-roman wrestling) 4.Rickson Gracie(Brazilian jujitsu) 5.Frank Shamrock(shootfighting) 6.Bas Rutten(pankration, thai boxing) 7.Pedro Rizzo(vale tudo) 8.Sakuraba(judo) 9.Marco Ruas(vale tudo) 10. Vitor Belfort(Brazilian jujitsu)....comments?
I think you are watching too much SUPER FIGHTS
Actually they were fun to watch. You mean you don't like the TANK?
What about Hulkster and Macho man.
Actually Ali was the greatst of all time.
Rocky Marciano
As Ali himself said, "I'm the greatest heavyweight of all time, but the greatest fighter of all time was Sugar Ray Robinson".
I wouldn't disagree with the champ.
a boxer couldn't handle any of those guys outside a boxing match. you can lock up a boxer's elbows and break his knees etc. maybe use some guntings (i am unsure of the spelling. it's the tactic of attacking the attacking limb from an indonesian martial art.) boxer's may have impressive chins but i wouldn't bet their thighs to last too many rounds with kickboxer.
it's still not very important, though.
scott
Here's my all-time pound for pound greatest boxers list:1.Ray Robinson 2.Ali 3. Kid Gavilan 4. Ray Leonard 5.Joe Louis 6.Archie Moore 7. Henry Armstrong 8.Roberto Duran 9.Mickey Walker 10. Jake LaMotta .....any comments?
If you're talking about Boxing and not more "extreme" styles, or techniques of other types of fighting, to leave off Rocky Marciano and Jack Johnson is a mistake. If you don't know who Jack Johnson is, go way back in your history books and you'll find him.
By the way, do you think Mighty Mouse could beat up Superman?
shooter
Even though in a no-holds barred street fight Tank could easilly beat DeLahoya, Trinidad, Roy Jones, Tyson, Hollyfield, and Lewis in one night, he does not belong with the guys that I have listed above. Pedro Rizzo and Maurice Smith both ko'd Tank with shin kicks, Vitor Belfort ko'd Tank with elbows to the back of his neck, and both Don Frye and Oleg Taktarov guillotine choked him.
1. Dave Semenko 2. John Ferguson 3. Gordie Howe 4. Dave Brown (just ask Stu Grimson) 5. Ali ( had to drop him to 5th 'cause he can't skate too well)
Hey you old dudes out there with Marciano and Ali. That's ancient history. Kojee is talking about the real bad boys where everything goes but eye gouging and biting. My vote is for Dan Severin who actually beat Shamrock
boxing's still beautiful. especially the lower weights. but i wouldn't take the boxer against these guys in an alley fight.
scott
Tougest guy: anyone with a gun
Kojee,
Cassius Clay aka Ali was the greatest boxer IMO. He was in prison for his prime years 5. He was the greatest, but I still feel shortchanged, because we missed his prime. Thank you Vietnam, and I don't feel shortchanged because they ended that war just in time because that was the only lottery I ever won. God bless all those that served in Vietnam and any war that are either dead or living.
paul
Gene LeBell, Hayward Nishioka, and Carlson Gracie could have finished off Ali (in his prime) in less than one minute in a no-holds barred street fight. Boxing has way too little tools at its disposal. I agree that Sugar Ray Robinson and Ali were the greatest boxers of all time but they wouldn't have been able to defend themselves against kicks, throws, chokes, takedowns, armbars, kneebars, leglocks,etc. In addition, LeBell and Gracie were also masters of biting, fishhooking, and eye gouging. Ali couldn't even beat Inoki despite the fact that Inoki wasn't allowed to do takedowns and submission holds....and Inoki was only a second class grappler!!!
if i remember right ali was stripped of his boxing title but never served anytime in prison.
Stripped of his title and unable to fight for THREE years (not 5), the case was overturned in the Supreme Court. He never served time.
Ever hear of a man named Alexander Kerelen? Hes an undefeated-for eight years- heavyweight greco wrestler. If we learned anything from the ultimate fighting, its that wrestlers dominate all other fighters. Unfortunately, the wrestlers in the competition were not that great. If Dan Severn can do well, theres about a hundred other heavyweight wrestlers (greco or freestyle) that could do even better. Alexander Kerelen is the best wrestler therefore the best fighter. He also weighs 300 lbs in the offseason-solid muscle.
I heard that Alexander Karelin actually competes in no holds barred fights in Russia/Armenia/Ukraine, but I do not know his record. I also don't know if he is any good in the art of submissions. Ultimate fights are won by submissions, not by pins as they do in greco-roman. By the way, I'm just gonna assume that "Ivan Putski" is an alias and not your real name. Putski was a very strong man and great pro wrestling performer. Probably a real shooter/hooker as well. In his prime he could have easily defeated Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Spinks, and Shavers in no holds barred fighting.
For boxers, ity has to be JAck Johnson (1915) and Jack Dempsey--he was a very violent man, a killer. Ali was a teriffic boxer, but he had the benefit of media hype. Ask Ali who the greatest boxer was, and if he wants to tell you the truth, he'll say Johnson.
Grapplers (not wrestlers) is what Kojee peobably meand are probably the toughtest because of their ability to fight on their backs or on the ground which is where most fights end.
I've made a resolution to keep a careful account of my Bankroll for this coming year. I've set up a spreadsheet which includes: Date, Location, Table Stakes, Hours Played, Session Gain/Loss, Total BR.
Am I leaving anything out?
Also, what about gambling expenses? Should I deduct them from my total BR, such as travel to/from the card room (I take the bus) and books by our illustrious 2+2 hosts? I don't plan on including food, since I'd be eating anyway.
thanks for your comments, J.
Try to eat in casino if it's free and tips small ( I saw world champion of poker order 2-3 free foods and tipped $1 american),sleep in restroom so you can save bus fare. You will SURVIVE.
I like a notation section for any extra ordinary hands or situations - maybe a state of mind note.
Expenses - I don't keep track except for travel to out of town tournaments.
And you deduct those from your bottom line? Reading your posts, I take it you play in many tournaments that require travel. Your BR must be very large, so I'm wondering how much these expenses eat into your overall percentage, if you do deduct them from your playing roll.
thanks, J.
The travel is a cost of doing business. I deduct the flight and hotel room from winnings. I have made all trips profitable to date with the exception of the 99 WSOP - that was only because I over did the super satellites and didn't play eneough of the single table satellites and ring games. I wanted to win that 10K seat real bad.
Jordan, I gave up new years resolutions year ago, but that was before I was a poker player. :) This year, i resolved to faithfully maintain my bankroll. I am also doing a better job of maintaining an accurate log of every session that I play. The columns i have are date/limit/location/buy-in/hrs. played/and profit-loss I am keeping it all in a notebook, that way I can cross reference to a seperate area, where I keep notes about the session and note any interesting hands.
I hope I keep my resolution and stick to it!
Does anyone know if Treasure Island Casino (which is south of the Twin Cities) has hold'em? Thanks.
No, there is no poker in Minnesota at all. In April, Canterbury Park race track will be opening a card club with all sorts of poker games.
Right now, the casinos in Minnesota only offer Blackjack and slots.
What a fun state.
Wisconsin is no better. I hate to think that I have to travel to Iowa or Illinois to play cards.
Thanks for the response.
Jon,
I'll be heading out there June 29th-July 2. I have to check on a few things out there. Maybe we could hook up one of those days. Email me if your interested.
Paul
Come on, it's approaching 3 MONTHS !!
Maybe he's waiting for a winning session.
Michael,
You know, somebody criticized him here for posting losing results. Couple that with his own observation, where he basically pointed out the same thing, maybe you're right about him wanting to wait for better results(even if you did sound like you were half kidding). Anyway, I hope that's not the case because I love to read about his High Limit ring game experiences, Win or Lose! I could care less about tournament results, here or abroad.
For what its worth, I saw Phil playing some high limit 7CS and O8 at the Taj in December. I think it was $400/$800 and he was very queit, and the entire table was constantly rinning him. So he mst have been stuck. And to top it off, the TV screens in the poker room were replaying a video of the first USPC main event no-limit hold'em final table where Phil blew off a big chip lead and finished 2nd to Ken Flaton. To quote Phil- "Brutal!"
i saw him playing too at the taj in december. he was playing 400/800 hold'em against johny chan and two other faces i recognized, but couldn't place a name. all phil could do was complain about his bad beats and one in particular to chan in which chan outrdew him on the river cost phil i think around 8,000. he was complaining to his friends walking by how he lost around 30,000 during a particular dealer's half hour. grow up, phil, it wasn't the dealers fault. I must say this, it was very entertaining watching four guys playbing at these limits. they each had one year of my college tuition infront of them. well, maybe someday.
This may sound ridiculous, but I'd pay 10 bucks for a seat with an un-obstructed view of the table where I could watch people like Phil playing 400/800 Hold'em. I'd love every second it.
.
I just read for the second time a post by Tom Weideman on rgp and a new response. It concerns corporate sponsorship of poker and Tom is just brilliant.
Look for the thread called Ranking Tournament Players by Gim Geary. Tom Weidman has a response on 01/4/00 at 12:43.
Gee, I thought I used to know how to insert a direct link but then again this is a newsgroup (oh yeah, I could have linked to deja.com).
Anyway, it is time for Pollitically Incorrect on the tube and Dennis Prager is on.
Good Night,
Rick
,
I am going to be in San Jose for a conference next week and want to get some poker hours in. Can someone give me a rundown of clubs near the Fairmont Hotel?
Theres 2 card rooms in San Jose: Bay 101 and Garden City. Both are big, and spread 2-4 up to high limits. I don't know where your hotel is, so I can't say which is closer, although if you're near the airport Bay 101 is just nearby. Low limit games are beatable but table selection is important. I prefer GC only because the players chairs are more comfortable.
The Fairmont is downtown. Neither club is that close. You will need to take a cab. (Should be < 10$) Here are some criteria to help you decide:
Food - Garden City. Not even close. Try the prime rib or smoked porkchops.
Omaha/8 - Bay 101 has 4/8 1/2 Kill - Garden City 2/4 or 3/6.
7 Card Stud - Bay 101 has 4/8 High only (call first, does not go every night). Garden City has hi-low split (3-6 or 4-8 - not sure?)
Lowball draw - only at the Garden City
Low-limit Holdem (2-4, 3-6, 6-12) - both have "good" games.
Mid-limit Holdem (15-30, 20-40) - Bay 101 will have several, usually must-move. Garden City will have one. Games at both places can be wild.
Hi-limit Holdem (30-60, 40-80, 60-120) - only at Bay 101. Probably only 1 game. Probably tough.
And that's about it.
maybe worm can tell you which clubs have tables with the least gum under them.
Are there any cardrooms in the Orlando area?
No. There are games less than 50 minutes away on the Sun Cruz boat in Cape Canaveral. Pretty loose games of one round Omaha H/L one round HE, and other tables with 7CS H/L. Sometimes there is a pot limit HE/Omaha H/L. There are some very good players in that game. I would say that in each higher limit game other than pot limit you will be playing with regulars, half or whom are very good players, the other half good players who just play too loose (possibly because its only a five hour cruise). Other than that your only choice is the Indian Casino in Tampa, which has a sort of mini-tournament structure.
Wow, a huge improvement. Tweak it to put the newest posts on top and it'll be the nuts. This allows one to read while it loads. Thanks Chuck?
What exactly does Digestify mean for the 2+2 site? Probably I am not spotting a link.
D.
it actually is kind of a code. if you break it down into parts it becomes obvious to all. dige(did you) stify (stiff the dealers). since people that do this dastardly thing at times get the wrath of many, those people use code. if you have problems with this code i suggest pig latin.
Wells not BobaLink!!!
Digitfri!!!!
http://atlascopy.com/index.htm
You might want to check this out if your tired of spending $26 for ink catridges. You can buy bulk ink 16oz for $24 and refill your current catridges you are using with a syringe and needle. Make sure you order the correct ink for your particular catridge as there are as many of those as sand in the beach Z just hit into. My catridge holds 27mls~1oz so doing the math thats 16 refills for $24 dollars. And someone else can figure out the rest. It covers the ante's.
Paul
i tried using ink for cartriges but when hit all the bears did were get mad as hell. very dangerous indeed.
Paul,
You wrote: "You can buy bulk ink 16oz for $24 and refill your current catridges you are using with a syringe and needle."
Doesn't the blood from the needle mess up the ink?
Rick
Rick,
Go see the movie End Of Days if you want to see blood ink.
paul
ok. if anyone is actually doing these, please let me know (by post preferably. i want to build support. soon everyone will be doing number theory.) also, if anyone has any questions, post or email me. if you want me to check your thinking or explain something, i would do so gladly.
remember these statements may be true or false. you are supposed to determine if a statement is true. if it is true, then prove it. otherwise, try to salvage the statement. that means changing it a little to make it true. maybe add an hypothesis or something.
1. if n is an odd integer then 8|n^2-1 (| means divides)
2. a,b,c are in Z (the integers). if a|b and a|c then a|(b*r+c*s) for all r and s in Z.
3. a and n are integers greater than 1. if a^n-1 is a prime then a = 2 and n = a prime.
4. imagine the cartesian plane. we call points with integral coordinates lattice points. no triangle whose vertices are lattice points can be an equilateral triangle.
there are also some numerical exploration questions about continued fractions. i am just going to try to describe a continued fraction.
take any rational number r/s. this is equal to some integer a plus some remainder k/s, where k is less than s. but this remainder is equal to the reciprocal of a number larger than 1, s/k. which is then equal to b + l/k, where l 29/11=2 + 7/11=2 + 1/(11/7)=2 + 1/(1 + 4/7)=2 + 1/(1 + 1/(1 + 3/4))
= 2 + 1/(1 + 1/(1 + 1/(1 +1/3)))
these will come up later.
scott
Hope this "proof" to the first problem doesn't have too many holes.
>>1. if n is an odd integer then 8|n^2-1 (| means divides)
if n is odd it can be defined as n=2x+1 where x is any integer or 0.
therefore n^2-1=(2x+1)(2x+1)-1=4x^2 + 4x + 1 - 1=4(x^2 + x)
if x is even then (x^2 + x)=2y where y is any integer.
if x is odd then x^2 is odd. then (x^2 + x) is even and equals 2y where y is any integer.
if x is 0 then (x^2 + x)=0. 8 doesn't divide 0 therefore n cannot equal 1. Statement must be modified.
since (x^2 + x)=2y for any integer, (n^2-1)=8y.
8|8y therefore 8|n^2-1 if n is an odd integer other than 1.
good, except 8 does divide 0. 8*0=0, so there exists an intger, namely 0, such that 8*a=0.
scott
Don't laugh too hard.
2. a,b,c are in Z (the integers). if a|b and a|c then a|(b*r+c*s) for all r and s in Z.
b=ax and c=ay where x and y are in Z.
therefore (br + cs)=(axr + ays)=a(xr + ys)
since x,y,r,s are integers, (xr + ys) is an integer
therefore a(xr + ys)=aq where q is in Z.
a|aq therefore a|(br + cs)
anyone who's laughing is not laughing at you. thy're probably laughing at me. well, whatever makes them happy.
scott
If David Sklansky is NOT a (multi) millionaire then why on earth should I take advice from him?
Anyone that has been in the business as long as he has-written as many books--and been playing poker professionally should CERTAINLY be a (multi) millionaire by now.
If he is NOT then I will never listen to any advice he gives out ever again. I mean really!
That would be like taking investment advice from someone that drives a Ford Taurus. Now comeon.
Without revealing confidential information about Mr. Sklansky's portfolio, I can tell you that it is quite substantial indeed.
Who cares how much money David has, worry about going heads up against him in a tournament, thats what matters. Besides he has done a lot more for the game of poker than one can imagine. Forget the advice, thats not all that he has brought to the game.
I usually advise my clients that speculating is not wise as there is so much of it now in the markets. I have no doubt that Mr. Sklansky's poker advice is extremely sound and is contributions to this game are legendary.
because you should be picking your investments randomly.
alex
the question is not whether David is a multimillionair or not. it is that if you play poker and gamble and do not understand what he says you will certainly not become a millionair. also sam waldon drove on old pickup truck till he died. and jeff brazos just bought a new volvo and traded in his honda civic.
Hump A Trump,
He may have been but since he purchased exclusive rights to my DIAMOND CAVE in South Africa, (Zee inspected it of course) he may need a loan Lumpy.
"Under The Boardwalk"
Actually I do drive a brand new Jaguar Vanden Plas but not so much to impress my readers as to, well never mind that's my business.
I'm always looking to up my bankroll (especially after decembers)
By the way where do you park it? Maybe I can sell it for parts.
Dave Sklansky says,"Actually I do drive a brand new Jaguar Vanden Plas but not so much to impress my readers as to": 1. Impress the babes 2. Depress his male friends 3. Smell the real wood interior 4. Drive fast 5. Support the garage mechanics 6. all of the above
Maybe David plays golf!
P.S I do like the 5 choices though.
Maybe he's made millions gambling, but he's broke because he has your taste in women.
How ridiculous. The idea that lifestyle or physical possesions is a sound indicator of one's wealth is eronneous Anyway, regardless of his personal worth, your desire to ignore his writings for whatever reason won't get you anywhere. Forget about how much money David Sklansky has managed to accumulate, worry about learning the concepts he teaches and start working on making that first million of your own.
Oh wait, you're Donald Trump, you allready have millions...never mind.
Last week it was a rumor. Since the 3rd has passed, can anyone tell us if the Taj Mahal poker room did indeed go non-smoking?
Thanks.
I was wondering about that too, esp. since I posted the rumor.
Just got off the phone with the poker room. It's still a rumor. Oh Well. One can only hope.
Danny
I sent a note to Tommy Gito about it. Guess he does not check his email. I'll be down there this weekend. I'll try to find out.
I was down at the Taj over the Christmas weekend. The players were talking about it then. I hope it wasn't just a rumor. I was almost choking on the smoke in there. Lousy ventilation.
I find the ventelation better at the Taj than at the Trop. I was just there and I had to take 2 showers and burn my clothes to get the tobacco stench out. . .Not to mention the screaming headache.
All part of the job, I guess. . .
shooter
The Vancouver casinos are now smoke-free. Many smokers like yours truly are in a constant state of tilt. Easy money! Come on down..er...up.
great they will get my business. see you in the spring when i come thru the mattress.
i cant believe a person a smart as you is as stupid as you.
Ray,
Dumbest thing I have ever done in my life - no doubt about it. Peer pressure working as a busboy when I was 14 years old got me started and I have been hooked ever since.
To be honest, while I have had some difficulty with the new no smoking rule, I am actually happy about it. It forces me to smoke less. As well, the place smells a whole lot better. My wife commented the other day that for a change my shirt didn't stink of cigarette smoke when I came home.
I've heard the same thing -- that they actually like the non smoking law here -- from many other smokers. Some have even used it as an opportunity to quit. (I here that prescription drug that reduces the craving is good.)
Also Ray said "...when I come through the mattress". I'm afraid Paul's starting to get to him.
La Vida Loca or Mambo No.5? Or is it something else?
Well, with the second verse the same as the first, which is the acid test for redundancy, I'm voting for I'm Henry the VIII I am, By those lovable Herman's Hermits. And as we all remember Herman's name is Peter Blair Dennis Bernard Noone.
"Coming Down Again" by The Rolling Stones 5:55. Album "Goats Head Soup". Z's specialty that he serves on Superbowl Sunday when the "Rams" play.
Meet you by the "Stump."
paul
actually a ram is a sheep. if you ever come up to montana i have a cute one with a black face for you. bbbaaaaaaaah
You guys aren't even close. The correct answer is "One More Night," by Phil Collins.
JG
Lighting Hopkins,I Once was agambler but I bet my money wrong
I vote for "Live and Let Die", for the simple reason that it has this line:
"And in this ever-changing world in which we live in..."
Dan,
I agree completely! And, if it's sung "And in this ever chang-in world in which we live in," it's far worse.
Old Joke:
A Texan strolls across the yard at Harvard University. He stops a tweedy looking type and asks, "Can y'all tell me where the library's at?" The professor replies, "Sir, at Harvard we don't end our sentences in prepositions." "Well, excuse me," comes the reply, "Can y'all tell me where the library's at--Asshole!"
The Bird is the Word?
- Andrew
ill go with surfer bird but what about 100 bottles of beer on the wall.
Ray,
I still have not heard anyone finish singing the song.
Post deleted at author's request.
How about Backstreets by Bruce?
He says "hiding on the backstreets" 30 times in that song.
Danny S
A pox on your house for dogging the Boss. Backstreets is a masterpiece, and every one of those "hiding on the Backsteets" has more power and emotional impact than the previous one.
Ah...don't get me wrong. I love the Boss, have seen him in concert many times and I like Backstreets.
Still with 30 "hiding on the backstreets" it has to rate up there as redundant
Danny-
As a guy from Philadelphia (am I right?), don't you just love this one from Atlantic City:
"Down here there's just winners and losers,
and don't get caught on the wrong side of that line."
How about Mony, Mony?
I got it! "You are so beautiful to me" by Joe Cocker.
2nd half of Hey Jude
Also Grand funk kept getting closer to his home
He's a loser.......a song about Gary Carson. Close second Yesterday.....song about Gary Carson before he played poker the first time.
x
It might be the same theme, but at least it moves around the orchestra pit a bit while going nowhere.
The RnR equivalent would be Chicago who took the same sound, recorded it 179 times and distributed it over a 30-yr catalog, tho granted it's a catchy little hook.
JG
Post deleted at author's request.
I think I read all the responses and can't believe you all missed it:
LOVE TO LOVE YA, BABY by Donna Summer?
Louie, Louie.....The Kingsmen. Not only is it redundant but unintelligible.
I used to know someone who knew the lyrics.
It's a Small World!!
Every nite at 10 I'd lay her again. Louie Loueye OOhh, oohh.
Now what's so HARD about that.
FAP
It's Me and My Arrow
Another long night at the tables last night, and wound up on the negative side on 3 out of 4 sessions played. I'm one of the few players who's not afraid or ashamed to give exact figures. . .I'm playing on a limited BR of less than $1,000, so I'm stuck on the 2-4 tables. But I can't help but think that I'd be wiser to move up, even though my BR doesn't can't afford it.
Here's the play that burned me over and over again last night: Holding quality cards, I'm forced to back off every time the board comes up 3 suits. So here I am, holding best hand up to the turn on numerous occasions, betting it up and turning the rest of the table into a calling station. Then the river comes, shows a third suited card and someone makes a flush. Finally I realized: ALL LOW LIMIT PLAYERS PLAY ANY SUITED CARDS. And when you have 8 callers, it's bound to bite you in the ass every time, because EVERY suit is being represented at the flop. So, if the flop comes 2 diamonds, the clubs, hearts, and spades all drop out and one or two callers are just waiting for the 3rd to drop. It was maddening, and I wound up leaving down over $150 thanks to this (as well as a few other) low limit bulls**t screwings.
Finally I went to a higher limit and found myself above water, though marginally. I'm sure many of you will tell me that the numbers are on my side in the long run, but in the short term it was VERY frustrating.
any comments?
shooter
Read my post under Texas Hold'Em: Can you win without losing your mind. I share your frustrations, and like Bill Clinton, I feel your pain :) That said, I modify my hand rankings when I play with the chowderheads in the 2-4 and 3-6 numbnuts contests. Since everybody plays everything---some people would call if dealt two BLANK cards: The big pairs drop in value. Essentially they are like any other pair where you usually have to flop trips to win. You might try laying off the hammer until you see the helping flop, or the helped-nobody garbage flop. This will decrease your earnings slightly but will also decrease your variance, not to mention your likelihood of going insane when KK gets cracked by 93---three times in an hour. Also, hands like Ax suited go WAY up in value, and most Kx suiteds become playable. Unsuited connectors (98, 65, and so forth) are also much more valuable when you play with loonies. Also, keep in mind that the short-term variance in this type of gsme is kind of drastic. Hang in there and try to think in terms of the long run.
Don't forget the high drop. If your paying in California, a $3 drop on the 2-4 is the same cost for 6-12 at many places.
Badger probably knows someone making 6 figures playing 2-4 but I think may be very hard show much profit in this structure.
Of course you do need the right BR, so you will have to decide whether to take shots or wait til you acquire more money.
It would not be a reason to move up because the whole table will play any two ( possibly suited ) cards. This is just free money. Read John Feeney's article in PD about developing the right attitude.
D.
Shooter I'd like to help but give some indication of the cards you are playing and where.
I pair in a game like this ain't much. Your big pairs go way down in value against so many random hands. Connected cards making nut straights and Axs making nut flushes are good hands in this sort of game. Good rule is - if you don't hit the flop hard get out - it will save you alot of bets chasing cards.
Thanks for your input Rounder. I read your posts every time, and gain a lot from them.
I usually play at the Trop in AC. I'm becoming one of the 'familiar faces' there. I have about 40 hours of table time in the last month, 35 at the 2-4 game, and about 5 at 3-6. So far I've done much better per hour at 3-6.
As for the cards I play, I try to play by HPFAP's guidelines, though I haven't memorized their hand grouping chart. I generally only play big suited connectors and big pairs from early position, sometimes one-gapped suited if they have eyes. On the button I play down to about 66, TJo, 67s,. Looking it up, that's somewhere between Groups 5 and 6. Maybe too low, but I take into account how loose the individual game is. To tell the truth, I've been thinking of lowering my early position requirements, since there are ALWAYS 6-9 callers pre-flop. I can pretty much expect it every hand, and raises aren't much of a warning to get out, since I've seen the most UNBELIEVABLE raises in these games. I saw a guy raise from UTG with J5s and take the pot with one of those 3 suited boards I was complaining about in my original post.
Hope this helps, and I look forward to your comments.
shooter
That is why I like Axs so much alot of good things happen with this hand wheel, trips with A kicker, AA on the board etc. lots of combos all winners.
Pairs go up pre flop too - flop a set and you are in business and there isn't much difference between a set of 6's and 2's is there. Connected cards are important too they make the nut straight if you use both and you get to make another straight as opposed to one gappers. Grp one and big suited are all good here too.
I wish you success.
Good advice, but I'm wondering: If I see the flop on SO many different hands, will the price of paying to see the flop 40-60% of the time wipe out the gains I'll make when I do screw the table the way they screwed me? By the sound of our posts, the advice for these low limit games is to loosen up a lot. I had always read that the secret for loose games is to tighten up. Maybe I'm mistaking 'loose' for 'ignorant', which is really what these players are. They probably wouldn't know what the word 'loose' means in terms of poker. Hell, the biggest winner at the table was an old guy who turned to me and said "What's it mean when you say 'NUT flush'?
see what I'm up against?
I'm talking about playing the connected cards in late position no where else. play the smaller pairrs in med to late and the group oneish hands in early.
This should keep you to about 25% of the hands.
I play much more stud, so my playing Holdem is simply to get a feel for the game. I have read the books and practiced on a computer, but here is absolutely no substitute for live games, and a lot of them. The analogy might be masterbation vs intercourse. Anyway, I really believe the only reason to play 24 or lower games to to simply see how the cards behave and to see how people react. It is a basic training of sorts. You must keep your head and play according to the odds. In low limit games, low suited connectors are frequently played too loosely. In stud, it's live cards. In holdem, it's high cards.
Just made my final travel arrangements for the COP - I'll be arriving 7am on Sat the 15 and out the next morning. I am coming to play in the $500 NL HE tournament. Hope to see some of you there.
Missed two tournaments today one is real easy money so I feel like I lost. Flu sucks. Anyone want to play phone poker? I'll deal from here and tell you what you got.
:-)
well i guess till you get better we will get bombarded by posts.
I have just moved to san diego and I need to know where is the best place to play. I live near downtown, approximately at I-805 and I-8.
I play holdem, 7cs, hi-lo stud, and O8. I usually play lower limit, anywhere from 2-4 up to 6-12, sometimes playing as high as 10-20, (depending on the games,how loose etc). I also love tournaments and need to know where and when the small $$ tournaments are (100$ or less). Are there any small $$ no-limit HE tournaments? Limit HE? 7cs?
any help would be appreciated
new guy
You are about 1/2 hour from Oceans 11 in Oceanside take freeway North to Oceanside and follow the signs.
You live about a 7 minute drive from the Lucky Lady on El Cajon Blvd. They have hold'em at the limits you're looking for (S.D. is pretty dominated by hold'em.). I'm not sure if they have O8, don't think they have any sort of stud yet.
Your next closest cardroom is the Village Club on Broadway in Chula Vista -- maybe 15 minutes south taking 805 to the H street exit. They have hold'em, O8, and some 1-4 stud h/l.
Viejas is straight out I-8 about 30 minutes, and Sycuan is similar, but harder to find the first time. They have smoke, but the games you're looking for.
Oceans Eleven has all the games (no stud high though) and is about 35 min north (take I-8 straight north to where it becomes I-5 and keep going about 30 min from there to Mission Blvd in Oceanside where you'll see a big "Casino" sign on the right.). IMO, it's probably the most professionally run cardroom in the area, though you may find the Village Club or Lucky Lady more "homey".
Sycuan has a Limit HE tournament, $13 buy in, no rebuys, and you get a $30 for $20 buy in coupon to use the same day. I know they do 3-6 and 4-8 HE after the tourney. Times are at 10am and 6pm Sat and Sun and I think 10am M-F. I'll be there most Sunday mornings for a while.
Stopped by the Commerce to meet John Feeney and small caps scott. When I got there, Rick Nebiolo and his student were heavily involved in a 9-18 Hold'em game. In one hand, Rick limps in with J10o, is raised by his student with 99's, flop comes 78x, check, bet, call. Turn 9, bet, raise, reraise, call. River pairs the board and student takes down nice pot. I mentioned to student that she may have learned everything she can from her current mentor and might have to consider moving up a little. I told her that D. Sklansky has a new Jaguar and might consider taking on a student with her qualifications. ;< )
I met scott, James H. and TJDJ (Ted Jou). Here's these three guys, still in their teens, on break from their Universities, whooping it up with some juicy low limit action. They were playing, having a great time, and actually savoring the flavor of casino action that so many of us "veterans" just take for granted. This should be the future of poker, young people coming in and tasting the heady thrills of victory, surviving the inevitable losses and coming back from them by studying and improving their games.
I met John Feeney only briefly as he was totally immersed in what looked like a very good $50-100 game that was being spread using $10.00 chips. It was a little weird seeing guys shove in a stack to raise on the turn or river. This is another young guy who looked comfortable in his environment. Where he is today is where the "young turks" will probably be in five or six years if they continue to participate and study.
It will be a great thing for poker if we can continue to attract people with this much promise to our game.
John - Good to see a Big John Post here again.
Wish I was there would like to meet the "turks" I was gonna be there this weekend except for the flu getting me down.
I still get excited everytime I enter a card room - savoring the flavors well you're a bit more poetic than I but I get this exuberance that is hard to describe. It is the feeling I used to get when I was wrestling and I was entering the mat for the match - this wave would come over me and I'd change from this nice affable gragerious guy to this monster with one goal to pin my opponent any way possible within the limits of the rules (I was disqualified in a sectional contest once because of over exerburance).
i hope you're feeling better. i am looking to be in la this summer, so i am sure i'll get a chance to meet you.
is over exuberence against the rules?
scott
Big John -- As brief as it was, it was a real pleasure meeting you. I was sorry you couldn't stay longer and have dinner with us. (Well, "midnight meal" might be a better term.) I did get to hear a good story of yours, though (the tree and the "owl"), from Scott. I'll definitely see you again in the coming months at one place or another.
I had exactly the same reaction to seeing these young guys enjoying their cardroom experience. I saw Scott just after he had sat down in a 2-4 stud game. He had a look of attention and focus that said, "Alright, I'm here, I'm playing, let's go." I was sure that if he didn't win it wouldn't be because he didn't bring more intensity (and obviously more thought) to the game than any of the other players. (He did win that night, btw -- quite a sizable win for the limit. Casino losing streak [of one] officially broken.)
I happened to walk across the the casino floor with James H. just after he had cashed out his own sizable win. He was really excited to have discovered how beatable the games were. Then we linked up with Scott and Ted, who has *also* won (not a bad little parlay), and it was just really fun to see their enthusiasm as they talked about what they'd just experienced. I think they had more fun than anyone else there that night (and at the Commerce, that's a lot of "anyone"s).
Aside from Scott, who at this point is pretty set on pursuing some serious poker, I don't how involved these "Young Turks" will get with the game. But it's clear that they have the abilities to go as far with it as they would ever want to. Even if they just keep it as a regular hobby as they pursue things like physics research, I can envision the time when some veteran players are going to be buzzing about these tough young players popping up in the poker world.
Rick and "student" were gracious and fun as ever. Rick is teaching her expertly, but I have a feeling he's learning a thing or two from her about how to have fun at the game.
John,
I'm sorry I couldn't stay also. The Commerce was my fourth cardroom stop of the day, having played some 4-8 Hold'em at Hawaiian Gardens while waiting to collect on a long overdue debt. I then spent 4 hours at the Normandie in the 15-30 lowball before running over to Crystal Park and playing the NL Hold'em tournament. By the time I got to where you guys were, I was a tired old man. I did perk up a little when small caps scott mentioned he might like to try a little small ring game NL Hold'em action, but nothing much came of it.
It is exciting when you see that the best and the brightest are being attracted to our game. The "Young Turks" certainly qualify in that regard. I figured that if I could get scott involved in some NL ring game action he would be "hooked" like I am and then we'd have an elequent voice on the forums to advocate big bet poker.
Send me an email the next time you are heading up our way and we'll hook up for dinner. I hope that 50-100 worked out well for you.
it wasn't that late old man. i definitely would have lost some money at nl if it would have kept you going through dinner.
actually, when my high school game gets back together we usually play a couple rounds nl. i want to learn big bet poker. it's fun and will probably be more so when i cease to completely suck at it.
scott
Big John -- The 50-100 did go well. The Nebiolo jinx was broken. I'm expecting to make it up to L.A. pretty regularly this year. So I'll certainly be in touch. I'm guessing that as time goes by you'll see scott in some NL games as well as every other structure and game type you can shake a stick at. I might even dip my toe in it if the blinds were small enough that I wouldn't be setting too much money on fire. (TM Badger) (I'm still fuming over a tiny pot-limit game I played with friends some time ago. Twice I got myself and another guy pretty much all in by the flop holding KK. Both times he drew out. It was like a rack of chips each time. I need a fresh start. :-/)
so are big john and rick (and rick's student is quite a cool woman), but the point of this post is mr john feeney.
everyone in jimbo's and ted's dorm thought we were being abducted by a pedophile when we drove off in a car with someone we met on the internet. someone almost called the cops. the people at this school are paranoid and juvenile. one stupid thing they do is dump water on people's heads who break rules during dinner. like getting out of your seat or throwing food. i hadn't seen someone throw food in 10 years. apparently the people here don't meet strangers at bars. i mean really, what were the odds you were a lunatic? i am a gambling man and i liked my odds.
fortunately for everyone involved, you were not a pedophile. or if you were, you managed to restrain yourself. for that, i thank you.
when i'm here this summer, i'll come down to san diego for a while. we'll have a car and everything.
scott
Well, when you tell them it's a guy from a gambling site on the internet, and he's driving you to a huge gambling den... Whew! Glad no one turned me in.
You've now played on both coasts, Scott, in your first two shots at cardroom poker. That says something. I'm not sure what -- but definitely something. Anyway, the summer sounds good. See you later, guys..
scott,
I'm confused. "They" dump water on you if you get out of your seat during dinner? Who is "they"? Do they have waiters at these fancy schools? Food police? Super skinny blond chicks with tatoos who think they are doing you a big favor by cleaning the counter in front of you when a stupid hamburger costs $5?
BTW, the odds against John Feeney being a lunatic based on his writing was 4.1 to one against. The average pro poker player would be a 2 to 1 favorite to be a lunatic. That means that John Feeney is 8.2 times less likely to be a lunatic as the average pro poker player. Correct me if I'm wrong on the math but please be warned that I am a lunatic and know it. Lunatics do not like being corrected.
Regards,
Rick
Yes, there are food police here. They are generally referred to as "waiters", but they're really instruments of a totalitarian food service regime. Anyhow, the convenience of having someone serve you your food is well worth adhering to a few simple rules (or am I showing my communist tendencies again).
Come to Caltech sometime and you can see for yourself - guests don't get wet, their hosts do for any rules they break. Don't take Scott's word for it, see for yourself how crappy this school really is. The only upside is the easy money in the .50-1 poker game, but now that we've discovered casino poker, I'm not quite sure what this school is good for anymore.
x
no, i am flying home tonight. but i will probably be able to get up there this summer.
scott
After sitting down at the 2-4 table and realizing how easy it was going to be to walk away with over 50 dollars, I had a hard time pulling myself away to watch some of the old timers in action. I was hoping to see some of the action at your super high limit game, but as I said, I was not about to get up when people insisted on throwing money at me. We will have to do this again, maybe next time we'll swing by San Diego, so we can catch you on your own turf.
-james H.
James,
You wrote: "I was not about to get up when people insisted on throwing money at me."
What were you doing? Lap dances? Don't come to Hollywood Park or I will definitely have to call security for this sort of behavior. I guess they are pretty damn lax at the Commerce.
Regards,
Rick
P.S. If you can get away with lap dances, you should sit in with those rich old ladies who play pan. I hear they tip real well. You could make more big bets per hour than Rounder.
John,
Actually the hand between my student and I went a bit differently. I was in the BB with Jd Td and she limped UTG and four other players called. The flop came 8h 7h 3d. I was thinking of betting at this with my two overcards and inside straight draw (the hand had several people capable of folding). As I was thinking, she was already reaching for her chips so I checked, she bet, two called and then I called with my inside straight draw, overcards, and back door flush. I really need to work with her to elininate the bad habit of reaching for chips too soon.
Anyway the turn came an offsuit nine. This is my dream card but I already planed in advance to checkraise if I saw that she would reach for her chips. She did so I was able to trap one player for a turn bet before she and I put in three raises head up. I was pretty sure she had a set. The river paired the eight and she lept out of her seat as she bet. I just called and showed the table my cards so all would know we had legit hands.
We never softplay one another and winning each others chips somehow is a little sweeter than winning ordinary chips. Usually after a while one of us takes a table change anyway. We don't need each other in our games.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
I stand corrected on the particulars of the hand. While you were telling me about it, I was probably a little bit distracted by watching how adroitly your student was collecting and stacking those newly won chips. I did notice that it didn't take you very long to reacquire those lost stacks once you made that table change and no longer had to contend with your aggressive student on your left. (I wonder how much of her improved results at poker comes from having great position on the best player at her table?);<)
If you teach as well as you play, I see a whole new career ahead of you.
Hi Big John,
It was nice seeing you again. The last time I met you and Rounder at Crystal Park, I did not have a chance to stand up from the game I was playing as I thought we would have a chance to catch up at the bar. Last Saturday, I was able to come and stand up close to you and I can't believe how tall you are. I was already in my most spiked high heels so I can at least look at you eye to eye but I could not even come close.
Thanks for complimenting me on my play and also the time I played at CP, I strive to do my best all the time but as Rick pointed out, I still have a lot of tells which I intend to correct as it's costing me some of my winnings.
It was nice meeting the 2+2'ers at the Commerce Casino. This was my second time to meet John Feeney and I told him how his articles/essays and his posts have helped me a lot in my game strategy. (By the way, I have learned a lot from all your posts also and from the other posters of the forum and from all the poker books I have read.) However, most of my poker knowledge is credited to Rick who is really the best when it comes to teaching. He will not stop pinpointing my mistakes until he knows for sure that I finally got it and I won't do it again.
After our poker session, John Feeney, small caps scott, James H., TJ, Rick and myself had a midnight snack/dinner/cocktails at the California Grill and I had a chance to talk to everyone who are as enthusiatic as me when it comes to poker. All of us had a great time and the following day, the troop with the exception of John Feeney went to play at Hollywood Park. We all played separate games but I think everyone went home a winner that night.
I hope to meet a lot of the 2+2'ers in the future. My first time I met you and Rounder, I did not even consider you two as strangers, we had so much to talk about, (thanks to the forum), it seemed like I've known you both for a long time. The forum brings down the barrier. This happened again the first time I met John Feeney and also when I met small caps scott, James H. and TJ. It really is a pleasure!
Wait till you meet ol' Izmet Smoothtalker Fekali!
I'm coming over soon.
BTW, please say hello to Mrs. Grace Rosenfeldt at the Crystal Park (she's a poker host/prop there), if you have a chance.
---
Hi Izmet,
Rick and I will be looking forward to seeing you. It will be a pleasure meeting one of my favorite posters. Who knows, maybe a lot of the 2+2ers will also have the chance to meet with you and us when you are in town. Just keep us posted.
We will say hi to Grace Rosenfeldt for you if we have a chance to go to CP.
I know I'd try to make it. I'd love to meet the Slovenian jammer.
John,
"Student" just left. We were talking about how great it would be someday to have a big group of posters all sitting around a table and having drinks and stuff. Maybe even Abdul, Mason, Gary Carson and Badger would show up along with Mr. Sklansky himself. That would be an interesting mix. The main problem would be setting it up so that only one person would be allowed to talk at the same time and this may be some sort of mathematical impossibly.
Regards,
Rick
This
Big John,
She has so much poker potential it drives me crazy when she makes a fundamental mistake regarding the way she puts out her bets. That is why I wrote that post above. Of course both of us know that even veteran players make this mistake. Anyway, I think I was a little hard on her in my post as she played the hand very well. And yes, having a tough tricky player like her on my left is a nightmare. I didn't have much chance to win money until I changed tables.
Because she is so attractive and ladylike people may underestimate her intelligence. She was in college at fifteen! She can respond to an email on some poker problem I send her with a full page of analysis and she can write it in about five minutes. She doesn't even use nor need a spell checker. Her concentration and focus is fantastic at the table. If she wants to, she can easily join those players' Abdul talks about in his deleted articles. I think she has a better shot and beating 40/80 or bigger holdem then I do if she works hard. But then again, she has a fantastic career as an executive. Few poker players at any limit do as well as she does. So she will probably keep playing poker as a part time thing. This is why she doesn't want her name mentioned on the forum. Big companies still frown on top employees playing in card clubs. Too bad, because she is the classiest player at the table I have ever seen. She has world class manners and is a world class person. But I'll still try to win her chips as she will try to win mine :-).
Regards,
Rick
P.S. I can't see taking on any more students. Anyone else would be a let down.
i enjoyed meeting you too. you are in fact as large as the lengends led me to believe. it was a great experience. last summer, the government paid me about 11 dollars an hour to do math research. i have a standing offer for this summer. but apparently caltech can beat that and i can play poker for 8 hours a day. it is looking very likely that i will spend this comming summer in la. so i am looking forward to that low limit nl game.
scott
Hi scott,
It was a pleasure meeting you and James H. and TJ. Hope you had fun and always remember the goodies at the Korean restaurant. Wasn't that something else? Your visit was too short but when you come back to visit California this summer, let's get together again, you and James H and TJ and the rest of your friends.
Hi scott,
It was a pleasure meeting you and James H. and TJ. Hope you had fun and always remember the goodies at the Korean restaurant. Wasn't that something else? Your visit was too short but when you come back to visit California this summer, let's get together again, you and James H and TJ and the rest of your friends.
It was most certainly a pleasure meeting some of the poker greats of 2+2. Although some of you were burdened with responsiblities like a family etc, you all managed to retain some of the spirit of college students just out to have a good time at all costs. You make your living, or a substantial portion thereof, playing a game. You guys rule.
I found the casino a great place for an 18-year-old to be. While they claim that people of our age are not allowed into these places, I found out otherwise shortly after I met Big John.
I was sitting at a 2-4 Hold'em table and a new dealer sat down. While he was dealing his second hand, he asked me, "Did you get carded coming in?" I, being an honest individual, responded, "No." He told me, "You look so 17." "16 probably," another player quipped. I checked my cards and smiled. He continued dealing.
The casino is great.
with Big John saying he is posting less for awhile and that crazy Paul Feeney (PH) preoccupied over on the sports forum stuff and Vince has become y2k neutralized it seems so nice around the forums. what a wonderful life.
now if we can do something with all the animals that hang around (badger, worm, hamster,ratso) that drive me nuts.
Shoot em, clean em, cook em, eat em and mount em. Unless you only want to hold em.
Ray,
Is that something you do every Millenium or are you just getting itchy for some of my Bro's money on the Left Coast.
Good Luck
Pheeney, Faul
Ray,
While I am staying away from posting to the forums directly relating to poker theory and strategy, I see no harm in my posting to the exchange forum. I think it is better to confine chit chat and off-topic postings to an area where "serious" participants won't be frustrated from having to wade through posts of no interest to them.
I have been giving your poor Mexican Stud Braceros a little break since right before Christmas after posting large back-to-back wins against them. I decided to play 50 hours of 15-30 and 25 hours of 30-60 to make sure that my bread and butter lowball skills don't deteriorate or atrophy. I don't want to wind up as one of those sad figures whose skills become so eroded from disuse that they have to hide out in some lean-to up in the northern wastelands, surviving on berries and roots and royalties, hoping to stumble across a dead elk, bear or opossum to liven up a winter's stew.
I often wondered what you did up in Montana to turn an honest dollar in your semi-retirement until I read your advertisement so cleverly hidden in the subject header. BTW, do you do windows?
aint no possums in montana
anymore. they've all become stew.
scott
Post deleted at author's request.
I am a 10-20 or 15-30 holdem player and wonder if any casinos in Tunica Mississippi ( or any place other than California or Las Vegas for that matter) have games with those limits.
I would like to travel to other places in the country and play...so any information would be helpful. Thanks.
LAM
10&20 is played in most areas with public casinos. in fact its played all over the world. find a place you want to go and give the casino a call and ask.
Tunica has great games at the Horseshoe just for what you are looking for. They spread several $10-20, 15-30, 20-40 and higher games every day.
Call 1-800-303-7463 for more information. Kenny Lambert is the poker room manager, Jim Presley is his assistant and Anita Estep handles the room reservations.
Come to SARGE and try it out or come down any weekend for great games and super people. One of my favorite spots.
Diane from Green Bay
There is a lengthy thread on RGP regarding Womens events at the WSOP and other events. Basic arguement is since there is nothing physical about poker why have the womens events.
The discussion has branched off to arguements about woman not doing very well in the Big one seems Barbara Enright is the only lady to make the final table since it's inception.
I can see why women are not making it to the hights as men - I put it down to emotion, aggression and testosterone but I'm just an old MCP.
There are any number of great women poker players but the question remains do they deserve to have their "OWN" tournaments I think it degrades their abilities - it is 2000 - maybe it is time to do away with women only tournaments.
Comments.
lets face it, (all) human cultures like to have (gender) segregated social events. since it is 2000, lets just accept that. (and if it does degrade their skills, well, so much the better.)
brad
MCP,
Do a Title IX for TNMTS like the wizards did in MA, so as to eliminate meaningless MEN sports like GOLF, LACROSSE, HOCKEY, FOOTBALL, ETC. I enjoy woman's sports probably as much as anyone, but to sacrifice MEN'S sports to make things equal IFR.
MCP with a TWIST
I have always maintained that women should have their own cardrooms. Would you like to invest?
Yes I agree and let me buy the first couch with straps.
You are right that there is no physical reason to have separate events for women. The decision, however, is not based on physical considerations but marketing; and, within common sense constraints, I believe businesses should have the right to market their products or services as they see fit. If I don't like what they are doing, I have the right not to patronize them, to complain, etc.
On a related note, why are there seperate shooting and archery events for men and women?
Considering that success at poker depends directly on how dispassionate, coldly calculating, and bloodthirsty one can be over a period of time, I strongly disapprove of women and men playing together in the same poker tournament events. We guys would never have a prayer!!! (Parenthetically---I DO love the enchanting way the little dears giggle when they make threes full of deuces on the river to beat my Ace-high flush.)
Rounder,
If you ever get to a final table, short handed with Barbara Enright, you'll never again argue that emotion, aggression and testosterone were legitimate factors in that men vs. woman outcome. Barbara will have the biggest set of "balls" at that table, I guarantee it! She is a super aggressive player shorthanded, and would put you to the test.
No arguement from me here John. She was at the Sr's and liked to play 45s like the nuts. Just wondering why they still have gals events at tournaments.
Well, I guess it is time for Diane to respond.
I don't want or need Ladies only events. There was a time and place for them when it was still necessary to have an easy way for women to break into the game. but that is no longer the case.
We can hold our own with you fellows. Barbara, Susie, Kathy L, Kathy K, Linda J etc and many others have shown that we can compete on equal footing and in WSOP open events.
The Ladies event at WSOP has been a tradition for years, but it has outlived it's need and should be eliminated.
Diane from Green Bay
anyone know where/when some especially weak games are in the phoenix area. i usually play at casino arizona in the late afternoon, 10-20.
just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on day of week or time of day or different place to play.
brad, (posting from work to kill time)
Brad,
I think the Casino Az. 10-20 is one of the worst in the area. Of course there is always Gila river and Ft Mcdowell. The 20-40 ato Casino Arizona is very loose compared to the 10-20 and they are spreading 15-30 too.
ja, 10-20 is pretty tough and tight, but i cant really play any higher because of bankroll limitations.
thanks
brad
Brad - have you tryed the 4-8 6-12 at casino arizona they can be really profitable. Local pors are making a living playing there. Loose passive and plenty of rich folks to fill the seats.
thanks, id play 6-12 in a second but it never gets going. maybe ill try the 4-8 if i can switch gears.
brad
4-8 hold'em "Wild Game" 4-6 hands capped pre-flop per hour. Lots of pre-flop raising. The boys came to play! I have not been playing many hands at all, 1) I have been getting very poor starting hands 2) I don't play poor stating hands. The few I did I won. This game is the "feeder" to the main game, but I am seeing player that were in the main game now moving to the feeder. I ask one guy "How is the main game" he says "So tight ..can't make any money. Guys are getting out of the main game putting their name on the board to play in this game." Another hour goes by and I get called to the main game. I grab a few racks and start loading my chips. As I am leaving the loud mouth at the table (who has been commenting about my tight play all nigh) says "The tight game is more your style anyway" another older guy says "If you play half as well as this guy PJ you could go home a winner too" PJ: "This guy's not a player" Old Guy: "I have played with him 5 times and he has gone home a winner every time" (didn't know the old guy was keeping track but he is correct I have been beating this level for 2.2 BB for about 150 hrs) PJ: "I don't give a shit how many times he has won he still ain't no player. I (PJ) play every night and win and lose hundreds of dollars that's a player!!" Now since this guy has been on my case most of the night I wanted to just rip into my true thoughts about "Regular Fish" like him but I decide to stay cool and just say nothing. I head off to the main game. I am at the main game for no more than 30 min (it was a tight table)and here comes PJ. He sits on my left and starts with the comments. I win 3 out of the next 9 hands I am up just under 100.00 for 4 1/2 hour time (2.7 Big Bets per hour)and decide to hit the road before I have to pay my blinds. PJ: "O.K the true grinder is on his way home to count our cash, put it in you little black book." Now I am getting a bit pissed. What I did want to tell this jerk is that "It's a piece of cake winning money from a "REGULAR FISH" like him". I decide to just say nothing again.
Question: Since I will probly run into this jerk in the future is it worth it to let this guy have it or just leave him swimming in the fish pond?
Thanks (had to get that off my chest)
Best of it !!
MJ
x
If it got "personal", I might be tempted to give the guy a shot with the intention of putting him on tilt, but why make yourself a bigger target at the table? You have these chowderheads right where you want them, why rock the boat? Most people would rather lose their money to a 'friend' rather than an 'enemy'.
I hear what you are saying Dunc Mills..but it was hard to just sit there and take it. Guess I'll wait to see if he keeps it up.
Best of it !!
MJ
I have used two approaches to just this kind of situation, with reasonable success: 1. Agree with Supermouth; say, "You're right, I'm not a "player", as you call it, I'm simply a "winner". Smile sweetly. Continue, "I'm sorry you don't like playing with me. However, I want you to know that I'm happy--VERY happy--to play with you." Seven hours later the true meaning of what you said will sink in--in the meantime, you just might shut him up while he mulls it over. 2. Tell the floorman that this player is harassing you (he is!) and criticizing your play, both of which are big no-nos. He will be told in no uncertain terms to cease and desist if he wants to keep on playing in this cardroom. (If you aren't getting this kind of protection then YOU shouldn't be playing there; come to think of it, the dealer should have reprimanded Jerkface in at least one of the incidents you describe.) In either case I would watch the progress of Asshole, and as he blew the last of his fifth rack of chips and got up to slink into the night, I wouldn't be able to resist calling out, "Now, there goes a real player!!!"
"I'm sorry you don't like playing with me. However, I want you to know that I'm happy--VERY happy--to play with you."
This is a good one.
Thanks
MJ
On one of the threads in the Hold ‘em forum, someone alleges that the distribution of cards on Planet Poker is not random. Mike Caro advised PP about their random number generator. For those of you who are familiar with his mathematics and computer skills, does Mike Caro have the necessary expertise to assure that the cards are fairly dealt?
I believe so yes. If I am not mistaken, his poker software, Poker Probe, uses Monte Carlo sims to determine the outcome of various matchups. The results determined by Poker Probe have been independently verified. If I am right this proves that Mike knows how to implement a random number generator via software. He has done a lot of work on a program call ORAC that plays heads up no limit hold'em. Also he did the famous poker tables that appear in Super System.
that has nothing to do with hand distribution, it only analyzes heads up matchups.
mike didn't write the software for the company in question, and his probe analyzes headsup situations, not flops and hand distributions. MR.Caro's personal website is incomplete. I'm not sure his skills range much beyond dos based programming.
Just saw the 1999 WSOP tape and it is worse than bad.
1st 20 min. is Wilford Brimley and some chick talking about drivel and the final table is so bad you don't know what the cards or bets are - Phil Hellmuth can't be heard and the video looks very amaturish. All in all awaste of time and money - hell it only took binions 7 months to get this piece of crap on the street.
Disapointment.
Is this what's going to be shown on Discovery Channel on the 19th? Or do we have something better to look forward to?
shooter
nt
Thanks for the info Rounder.
It Sucks!!!
....
XX
his posts were getting too strange so mason asked too have him deleted. i never realized he meant vinces posts and not the whole enchilada. malentendu thats all. mhrip. lets hope he hasnt cloned himself along the way.
He saw my face and had a picture taken of us together. I'll leave the rest up to you since you probably own a "JUDGE".
Huh?
GTO,
G.O.A.T. OFFERINGS
A "Judge" was a Pontiac GTO back in 69,70,71. Spoiler on the back if ordered. It was a MUSCLE car, didn't corner too well.
FLOYD AND SID HOFFMAN'S 69 JUDGE!
AT 'ALL PONTIAC WEEKEND' CAR SHOW IN REID PARK! YOUR NEVER TOO YOUNG TO BE A GTO FAN!
R.A.III 400 LURKS UNDER THE HOOD!
THE HOFFMAN'S PURCHASED THEIR JUDGE IN THE EARLY 80'S. IT FEATURES A R.A. III 400 WHICH HAS BEEN COMPLETELY REBUILT, BORED .060 OVER, A CRANE R.A.III BLUEPRINT CAM WAS INSTALLED ALONG WITH A HOLLY 650 DOUBLE PUMPER, AN MSD6A INGNITION BOX, AND 3 TUBE HEADERS! A TURBO 400 TRANNY BACKS UP THE 400 AND A 3:73 POSI PUTS THE POWER TO THE GROUND! OPTIONS INCLUDE: DUAL-GATE SHIFTER, IN-DASH TACH AND POWER BRAKES. CAR IS PAINTED CAROUSEL RED AND INTERIOR IS BLACK! KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK FLOYD!
Paul A "GOAT DRIVER"
i wouldnt be seen in the thing. with such a low rear and a four insteed of three deuces.
I just read Mike Paulle's report of the third Carnivale event, and one Vincent Lepore cashed for a bit over $1,800. Congratulations, Vince! Frank Brabec
My picture page now boasts 8 photos - Badger, BillM, Mike Blair, me, Jeff Harding, Rounder, scott, and Tim.
Come on, guys and gals ... we have a lot more than 8 posters. I have access to a scanner, so you can snail-mail a regular picture if you want. Both mail and e-mail addresses are on my sub-page Contact Us.
Dick
My picture just wouldn't fit in on your site. I'm actually very good looking.
Brett
Come on, Brett, send it in. Now if you don't show your hand (or in this case, your face) everyone will think you are bluffing.
Besides, we need some competition against Rounder for Most Photogenic. I'm partial to myself for that prize, but I haven't found a second vote yet.
Dick
I am 18 years old, living in California. Aside from internet poker and private games, are there any options for me to play in casinos or public cardrooms?
people your age shouldn't be playing poker.
scott
x
I am also 18 and in California.
I'm sorry to tell you, but there are no poker games for you in California.
Okay, so I butchered scott's joke...
Seriously though, where are you in California? There's indian casinos all over the place - and if you look any older than I do, you can probably walk straight into any card club - and of course there's always the infamous Caltech Fleming House poker game...
I live near San Jose. Anything around there?
Indian casinos like Sycuan which don't serve alcohol will let you play. But gamble responsibly and remember to put your studies first.
Come on down we need the action.
I don't think so.
I'll be 33 next month and still get carded at the valley casinos. I don't think they think I look 17. And if I recall correctly, Zart had been asking around here a few months(years) ago because he was having difficulty and was somewhere between 18.0 and 20.99.
JG
PS, there's .5 chance I'll be at tourney tonite. There's a picture on my webpage if you want to pick me out. (Add 25 lbs)
Jim I'll be there tonight hope for better run of cards than lastnight. 2 hours andplayed 4 hands. Pot was 15K lastnight and had 90+ players.
I was a bit offended that I didn;t get carded at the sr's wher eou had to be 50+ to play in one of the tournaments. Funny thing was no women entered guess they didn't want to admit they were over 50.
x
I asked the security guard on the way out. He said they were 18; the other valley one's are not. Gov. Hull is trying to standardize the compacts such that the age is 21 for all of them.
JG
Jim, Ft McDowell and Gila are 18 Casino Arizona is 21.
BTW - nice meeting you last night. I made it to 12th that tournament is such a meat grinder. If you wanted to see a flop it cost your stack. I was UTG with 6 at the table with A8 and made a run at the pot BB called my raise with J7 and hit 2 pair on the flop.
I have this feeling that 4 or 5 guys are playing together there. I wish I could prove it.
email me privately
All the indian casinos around So.Cal are 18 to play. They are much better too because you dont pay the rake until you win the pot. It makes it cheaper if you play tighter then the other players. San Manuel is probably the best Indian casino for Poker players in so cal.
One of the supermarket tabloids has an annual list of the best dressed and the worst dressed celebrities. Maybe it's time for us poker players to make our own list too. Who are the best dressed and worst dressed poker players around today?
Do dice earings, wild cowboy hars and card decorated shirts count?
Do dice earings, wild cowboy hats and card decorated shirts count?
;)
All the regulars dress like shit. Typical slobs with lots of gold chains, need shaves, and wear coats (like my granny and her cold blooded friends). Oh yea, lots of hats (all kinds), sneakers, sandals with white socks (egads!), and sweatshirts that are too small for their beer guts (guess they never heard of Extra Large). Tourists and some of the New York Gypsies dress to the nines, but I do like the babes in the low cut tops and tight spandex pants the best.
GaryCarson's picture on the irc site would indicate that not only does he strangle small dogs for entertainment, but he wears cheap ties too. Not number 1, but in the bottom 10.
Can someone tell me a good book to get for different types of home Poker Games? Thanks.
Limit, No Limit and Pot Limit hold'em!!!
:-)
I know you only deal with hold'em Rounder, but my non-casino playing poker friends get bored with stud and hold'em. I do not want them to get bored since it is easy pickings, even for a rookie like me.
I enjoyed "Thursday Night Poker" by Peter Steiner even though I only play the occasional home game. It has a lot of stuff about Omaha and Omaha split which are good lively games to play at home without having to resort to wild cards and alehouse stuff like that.
Andy.
I was going to suggest that too Andy. It is certainly geared, as the title suggests, to home games. I guess the problem I had with Stiener's book is that the effort I put into reading it didn't really pay off for me-that is, I didn't feel like I really got anything out of it, and I host a game at my house almost every week. There is some valuable info in this book though DCC, Peter Stiener is a retired probabilities prof., so he knows his numbers, but there was some stuff that was a little iffy, and it was not the most interesting book I've read.
Check out "Chilcoot's Poker Page" for a list of home games if you want to add variety: home.gci.net/~chilcoot/poker/
Try introducing loball, razz and high chicago/low chicago. They are easy to learn, and you dont have any of that wild card nonsense.
Mike
The general concepts and principles in Theory of Poker work in home games as well...as long as half the cards in the deck are not wild and the antes are not as big as the bets themselves!
In my first weekend of casino excursions, I got three 4-of-a-kinds...None of them made me huge money, but every time I turned over the cards, people said, "Oh, if only I had 4 of a kind, we would have hit that jackpot."
...being only 18 playing in a 21-and-over cardroom, this began to concern me...what would I do if I hit the jackpot? They certainly wouldn't pay me after I had to give them my SSN and all that...If I hit the jackpot, The floormen would never let me in again. They'd put my picture up on the wall next to the other winners of bad beat jackpots but mine would say, "Card this kid." ...I really hope if I give someone else a bad beat, atleast they will get the money - otherwise I'd have people following me home and killing in my sleep...
So, I'm thinking...4-of-a-kind all of a sudden becomes a very dangerous hand to have...so I was thinking about strategy...On the river, do I bet out and fold to the raise? Or, should I check-raise and fold to that re-raise?...Its probably a few more re-raises before I know for sure he's got quads...maybe I should just ask him, "Do you have quads?" and then fold if he says yes...hmm...maybe if I fold my quads every time, it will give me some sort of game theoretic advantage? - yeah, this really is a big hole in my game...any suggestions?
Post deleted at author's request.
To a casino floorperson and a bar bouncer, saying "I left my ID at home" is, in about as many words, like saying, "I'm underage". No one buys it. Still, they may be bound and allow it.
Yeah, but telling them you left your id at home certainly isn't as big a give away of your antisocial intentions as saying you forgot your superego. ;)
Doesn't everyone lose their superego when they turn 18?
qwerty
If you win the jackpot they only need your social security card which doesn't show your age. At least the times I have had to produce my ID in a casino when winning tournament money or jackpot money all thy want is your social security card.
avoid jackpot games in general if you can. good advice for all ages. find out the law. in nevada they dont pay any bets to underage. in your state it may be different. id consider a phoney id but would give the correct ssn as thats a federal beef.
I am just glad to know that I'm not the only underage guy who plays in casinos all the time. But hey, Fake I.D. is your best out probably. These guards in the So.Cal casinos never even suspect they are fake. Better yet if you have a friend who looka anything at all like you use his.....it worked for me flawlessley (the guards once again never suspected the ID wasn't mine - even though I barely looked anything like the guy on the picture)Sad conclusion to the story.....I lost the damn thing and now have to sneak by the guards just to play some poker.....hell at 18 we're considered adults, why not let us play poker, afterall they allow us to flush money away on crap like the lottery and make us sit on juries etc etc...okay I'll quit rambling on.
yeah. if they want to try me as an adult they should allow me drown my sorrow.
scott
djtj,
I agree with Ray on this one. Once you start breaking the law it's hard to stop. You start lowering your values of what is right. You may get over this stage but some never do. Look your 18 hopefully you have a full life ahead of you and the money you make off the bad beat will be gone in a month or less. I know it's cool to have a fake ID and I had a few, but if I had it to do over I would never have got one. Playing under age in a 21 or over casino, just don't blame the person who catches you for being a jerk. YOU HAVE PUT YOURSELF IN THIS SITUATION YOU MUST ACCEPT THE PENALTIES. The bottom line is your going to do what you got to do because your 18.
good luck paul
First of all, there is no bad beat in AC so we don't have that to "worry" about. If you win any jackpot on any machine in AC, they may or may not, at the descretion of the floor person, as for ID to prove age no matter the amount If the amount exceeds $1200 for an investiment of $1.25 (five quarters), you will need your SSAN. Most people do not carry it with them so they take your word and like a driver's license to back up. If you have a casino card which most people do, thay will verify the card if it is really you. Then no need for more info since you are in their data base already. They will NOT pay off any minor even if you hit the day before your 21st birthday. You are on camera, so getting someone else to pick up the money will not work. sorry
You're 18...and it's illegal for you to play...so why do it at all? DON'T underestimate the potential impact of even a simple arrest for underage gambling (or other misdemeanor), even if the affair is never prosecuted. These days that sort of information shows up on credit reports, employment screening services, and other private and public databases. You can find yourself unable to open a checking account, rent an apartment, land a decent job...all because of ONE negative incident. If you don't believe me, all I can say is, I'VE been there, and done that, and it's no fun at all. Besides, you're 18...at the height of your physical strength, not a care in the world (compared to when you're, say, 38),....why in the world would you want to spend this irreplaceable time stuffed in a smoky cardroom with all of us decrepit old farts when you should be out playing baseball, football, skiing, partying, having sex with any girl who'll hold still long enough, eating to excess, staying up all night..in short, all those things we old folks CAN'T do any more, or won't, because the price is too high. The cardrooms will still be there when you get old and fat, and you need them to get away from your wife or to stave off boredom. Go out and enjoy life, of which poker is only a sad and poor imitation.
Sadly, I must agree with Kevin.
but you're both missing a few things.
the first is that i, and probably some others, have a system of morality that is independent of the law. the only sense in which i consider the law is a risk/reward type fashion. illegal is not sufficient to show immoral.
second. who cares if they can't land a decent job, etc.? i don't. i can't tell heaven from hell. neither one is death and that is all that matters.
third. kinda like second. life is life. it doesn't matter if you're sleeping or skiing. reading or drinking. working or playing. it's all the same and it's all beautiful. life needs no justification in any form it takes. i am not wasting my time when i play poker and i am not wasting my my time when i sit and gaze out the window.
last. if you have to stave off boredom, then you are the one who is living death and should, therefore, be quite reluctant to give advice on life.
scott
Scott, Everybody has their own moral compass and hopefully it is not externally imposed. We all encounter "rules" in life that we ignore or disobey because the rules are irrelevant to our experience, or self-contradictory. The fact is that the prevailing common law DOES coincide with most persons' morality; i.e. people don't do an act that is forbidden by law because they feel that it's simply wrong, not for fear of punishment. I was merely citing the PRACTICAL consequences of what you are doing. I could care less if you're 18, 8, or 98 (although I think the arrogance you show will prevent you from maximizing your winnings, and such arrogance only fades with maturity). And if you don't think a decent job is important, tell that to someone who is sitting is his/her apartment, the rent is a week overdue, and the phone is going to be turned off tomorrow. And despite your feigned indifference to the concept, some moments, some experiences in life ARE far superior to others. However, there are some persons for whom the time spent in a poker room indeed represents the pinnacle of their existence. Far be it from me to say it shouldn't be.
Don't play pocket pair or suited connectors!
Danny
atleast somebody got the humor value of this post.
Stop giving me life advice; I can take care of myself. Laugh a little, don't worry about other people's kids and hope I don't take a jackpot away from you :p
Win, win, win... build a big bankroll, and move up to non-jackpot games. Quick!
This actually happened to me when I was still underage. My quad Kings beat the guy's Aces full. The cardroom didn't honor the bad beat. I cost him 8,000. After he found out that he wasn't gonna get the money, he immediately ordered two shots of whiskey in order to keep himself from "Taking me outside"...The other players at the table told me that I was lucky. The pilot who was sitting at the guy's seat a few minutes earlier was very hot headed and would have jumped across the table and killed me. Just thought I'd make a confession.
Some of us are planning to get together in L.A. for a minimum $50.00 buy-in $1-2 blind NL Hold'em game. This will be a cut-throat social game. After each hand, we'll discuss how we would have played, how Mason would have played, the nasty comments that Gary Carson would have made about the way Mason played it, and finally, the pot will be awarded to the winner based on bets uncalled or a showdown.
If we get sufficient interest, we can get the game spread at the Bike, Commerce, Crystal Park or Hollywood Park for a collection charge of $5.00 per 1/2 hour or less. As an alternative, we can use a $1.00 ante structure with a $3.00 dead drop. This will result in a slightly looser game and, given enough social interaction, lower overall collection costs.
When we had this game every night at the Commerce, the collection was $4.00 per half hour and the game was extremely lively and enjoyable. If we can agree on a place date and time, I will make arrangements to see the game is spread. Post here if you'd be interested.
John I am going to be in LA in early Feb. for the LA Poker Classic. Count me in.
Mike
How about all you fair-weather CA and AZ types chartering a plane and coming up to Edmonton so Dan Hanson and I can get in? We can set the game up in the courtyard of the private poker club here in town for the 1st Annual Great White North Al Fresco Poker Classic. Toke the house $1-2/hand, no drop. Your dollars are worth a ton here, we can arrange guided tours of West Edmonton Mall, etc.
One additional advantage: when it's -25 outside, you will not lose concentration at the table. Truly an "Only the strong survive" type of game.
-25c is only -13f down here in the states. in montana at that temp. im swimming in the lake.
Yeah after he gets his pet polar bear "COKE" to make a hole in the ice.
Oh, so that's why they call you numb-nuts.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
P.S. - I know that as he's reading this, Paul Feeney is kicking himself for not thinking of it first.
Goll-llly. Sounds like fun... IF you guys can figure out a time and IF I can get enough airline scratch together and IF someone can haul my sorry soggy Portland ass around - AND perhaps put me up for an evening??
Then I can grace you all with my fabulous hippielike presence as scott has been so gracious to point out.
I'd love to do that... You can email me privately, too in order to discuss.....
Thanks, Tim
Deal me in.
Gee Tim, you make that sound almost too good to pass up :)
damn right tim's a hippie.
also, id be in the game if i were in the city. i may be back in la this summer. or the game can come to ny.
scott
"damn right tim's a hippie. "
Screw you, I'm going home....
Screw you - Home.
See Ya! Tim
John,
If you guys ever make it over to Las Vegas we spread that very games every Sunday at the Stratosphere at about 6:30 (didn't get started until about 7 last week). The game normally lasts until about 6am and we spread a second game that usually lasts from about 9 until 2.
Randy Refeld
Barring any objections from the law-abiding citizens of this forum, the Caltech students would be glad to participate in some great poker with some great players.
This Friday, January 21st, 7:00 P.M. at the Commerce. Everyone is cordially invited and welcome to participate or watch. Taking signups and seat reservations as of now. $50.00 buy-in, $1-2 blinds. Collection of either $4 or $5 per half hour per player. Initials will go on the board at 7:00 P.M. in the order posted here. I am first, and will be in seat#9.
BTW, I was kidding about dissecting each hand. We'll give the pot winner 15 seconds after each hand to dazzle us with his/her brilliance or baffle us with his/her BS.
I am hoping that this will be a success and will evolve into a regular get together. Later, we might try varying the format, adding some NL 3 draw lowball or pot limit Razz. Remember, sign up first so you don't get shut out.
I will be at Harrah's from 1/19-1/22. I am greatly disappointed to miss this opportunity to meet with you. Have a great game.
Big John,
I don't want you on my left. I can make it and I'd like to claim seat three. From there I can keep an eye on you.
Regards,
Rick
Big John,
Since Rick told me he won't let me look at his cards during the play of the hand I might as well play. Put me in seat number one please. I want to keep the wild gambler types like you on my right and the rocks like Rick and John Feeney if he comes on my left.
Post deleted at author's request.
Hi Badger,
Big John is going to have a poker party at the Commerce this Friday evening. If you're in town, why don't you come down and join the fun at the table. There's still a lot of seats available. Also, it would be a great pleasure meeting the Omaha Champ in person.
Big John,
Count me in if it is in Los Angeles. I'm pretty clueless about no limit against players that do have a clue so I'll be the fish. I will deviate from my usual big buy-in approach I use at limit and you guys will have to get it from me one buy-in at a time but figure I'm good for at least six buy-ins. BTW, does anyone mind if I have someone sit behind me while I play?
Regards,
Rick
Post deleted at author's request.
I'm sure I'll be twice the fish you could ever be Rick.
Maybe being downstream of the loose money that way will help me survive. As you know, Big John, I'll be in touch and will try to put in a little time in this game when I'm up there. (I hope it can be at Commerce or maybe the Bike as those are the main clubs I want to go to.)
After each hand, we'll discuss how we would have played...
Motion to have Ray Zee play in this game. Thank you.
Hi Rick: I was at a wine class last night and the "teacher" had mentioned a California wine variety that imitated a region in Italy (not Chianti, I forgot though), and this Cali variety is called Nebiolo. Do you, perchance come from a wine-making family?
I thought it was really cool that there's a wine "named for" a forum guy... Take Care, Tim
Tim,
I think it is spelled with two "L"s (i.e., Nebiollo). My Dad may have bought a bottle or two but we were never big wine drinkers. I wouldn't know if it is good or bad.
I'm not aware of any connection between these wine-makers and any of my relatives. My grandparants came to this country from Poland and Italy without a pot to pee in like millions of others early in the (I just remembered -last) century. So there is no free room at a nice Italian villa for me :-).
Regards,
Rick
x
I've been told that home poker is legal in Denver, Colorado as long as the game isn't raked. Has anyone checked into this for sure?
Thanks,
Honest Citizen
That's not entirely correct, but it may reflect the practicalities of administering the law.
In Colorado "gambling" is a class 1 petty offense and "profesional gambling" is a class 5 felony. "Gambling," however, is specifically defined by statute to exclude "[a]ny game, wager, or transaction which is incidental to a bona fide social relationship, is participated in by natural persons only, and in which no person is participating, directly or indirectly, in professional gambling." "Professional gambling" means participating in or aiding or abetting "gambling" with the intent to derive a profit therefrom. You'll note a certain circularity here.
The key, at least the way I understand the law to be enforced, is that there must be a "bona fide social relationship" -- everyone must know each other -- and that the house cannot profit directly from in that the activity itself, such as by a rake or time charge. The Sports Bar in Federal Heights, for example, used to run an open hold 'em game every day (perhaps it still does), but the players all had not know each other and the dealers worked on tips with nothing going to the house. Around the time of last year's Superbowl, however, Arvada cops shut down a restaurant's football pool when one of the participants (or maybe the owner) admitted that he didn't know all of the others in the pool. I understand that a number of Denver social clubs spread poker without any hassle but they limit their membership and keep the activity pretty quiet. There are also several quasi-legal (or quasi-criminal)establishments that seem to stay in business.
I've heard several people in the gambling business tell me that the existence of a common dealer or a rake determines whether the game is legal, but I don't see that in the statute. That may be the test for most prosecutors, though.
See generally Colo. Rev. Stat. sect. 18-10-101 et seq.
My understanding of Colorado law is that the game is legal if no one profits from it indirectly, such as a time charge, a rake, or dealers receiving tips.
The Sports Lounge was busted, but only after several years of operation. Usually law enforcemnt does nothing until they receive complaints about a game.
The social relationship issue is vague, and therefore rarely enforced. Just pass the deal and have everyone bring their own refreshments.
Brett (who only has one conviction for professional gambling)
That is great information, thanks guys. In my game, we usually have one dealer. I have an oval table, and it is inpractical for the people on the end to deal. Generally, I sit in the middle and deal most of the night, sometimes trading off with another player in the middle. Along with using two decks, this format also speeds up the game.
I don't rake the game, don't accept tips, and we generally share the cost of food. Most players know each other very well, though we do occasionally invite a new acquaintance. Sometimes from these very pages!
Do you think I should make sure I pass the deal more often, or does it matter?
Only one conviction for professional gambling? Is that a badge of honor in the professional community? I'm sure there is a good story behind that one ... I'm all ears!
Thanks again,
I live in Denver and we run a game inside a poolhall. Before it all started we contacted the police department and researched it very extensively. And you're right, as long as the house does not make any money from the table and everyone knows everyone there is nothing that the police can do. In fact there are police inside the establishment on a daily basis and alot of the times they watch and they have said nothing . We usually run a 1-3 or 2-4 game which keep the stakes fairly cheep, but I am interested in moving up the ladder a little and would like to find a game with a little more $ invoved. Any info would be appreciated.
jas
My game has a smaller limit than the game you are already playing so I doubt you would be interested. However, I would be interested in yours. Also, if you send me your e.mail address I'll let you know if I hear about any other games. I know one guy who is thinking about putting a mid-limit game together.
Though, I am still a little curious about the everyone knows everyone rule. What the hell does that mean? If I bring a friend to the game, and he knows me, and then I introduce him around before the game starts, does that qualify? What about meeting a guy over the internet, exchanging some e.mails, and then inviting him to the game? What if you form a club, and formally induct new members, now does everyone know everyone?
As long as it is ok, I welcome any additions to my game. It is small and friendly. Shoot me an e.mail.
Pat
The way that the police explained it to us is that it is considered "friendly" gambling, which according to them is legal. The way we do it, is that when a new player that no one knows comes and sits down, we all introduce ourselves and the police say that that is ok. Believe it or not I would be interested in your game and maybe a few others as well. I will shoot you an e-mail later and let you know.
jas
the only way the police bust the game is to have an insider bust it by acknowleding the house split : This happened at Fairchilds. Most games in town rake. A player can get action in the circuit everyday of the week at varying limits if he wishes. One social club in town is sponsored by a Denver Police Charity organization. Getting busted usually results from what I've seen by people being horribly stuck compalining to the cops. The casinos in the hills do not like the competition.
The sports lounge, as people refer to it, is back in business at a location referred to as the Matahorn. Interesting that Mr.Alger quotes the Colorado Statutes. He must be a lawyer. The statutes are only enforced when the protection hasn't been paid. Denver politics.In the late sixties Denver had the cops busted for running a bordello and burglary ring.
Since posting, I've recieved my usual harssment call fron DPD detectives over some issue they failed to investigate 2 and 1/2 years ago. Probably just a coincidence.
I want to drive from Minnesota and play hold-em in the Chicago area. Any help finding poker rooms, or web pages that can tell me about poker rooms in the Chicago area is needed. I can go during the week or on week-ends. I just need to know where to go. Thanks.
Sara
My favorite page is www.casinocity.com Use the search feature in the casino directory to find exactly the room you're looking for. www.pokercentral.com can sometimes be useful for a little extra information, but in general is out of date and less accurate.
Hollywood Casino in Aurora (off RT 88 west of the city) usually has 5-10 and 10-20 hold'em, 1-5 stud. 10% rake to $5. Occasionally bigger games, and sometimes Omaha -8. No boarding times, which is nice.
Harrahs (unless the name changed again - I don't keep up) in E. Chicago Indiana is just south of the city. Their casino in Joliet IL also spreads poker, but I've never been there.
Hollywood in Aurora opens at 8:30 or 9 a.m. every day (they tell me, I've never been there that early). They close at 6 a.m. (I have closed the room on more than one occasion), everyday but Saturday, when they close at 8 PM. Joliet still has no poker on Saturdays, I believe. Aurora has a $25-$50 half Omaha/8 half 7-stud/8 game that goes on Mondays and Fridays. They have a 20-40 holdem game that goes on Thursdays. They have a $15-30 Omaha/8 game that goes on Tuesdays. The 5-10, 10-20 holdem, and the 1-5 stud go everyday. Food comps are very liberal, supposed to be for 4 or 5 hours play, but if you play a couple of hours, and get hungry, I've never seen anyone turned down. They have a buffet, and a diner where the food is good. After 12:30 am, tho, you just get hot dogs/pizza at the snack bar, cause that's all that's left open. I think they got a $49 room rate at the Comfort Inn nearby, I know they sent me a coupon, but I always go home (live just an hour away). Games range from loosey-goosey to loosey-maniacal, so fasten your seat belt! Good Luck, Frank Brabec
vince will be quite annoyed that he missed a woman posting. you have to post regularly at least until vince gets back. it's only fair.
scott
Anyone know of a palm application that can be used to keep track of poker results, either tournament or ring games. I'm using a spreadsheet right now on my palm and if there isn't one out there, I'm going to right my own (probably java/kvm based)
I was talking to John and I've decided that something needs to be said here about Brazillian Bar-b-que. It is incredible. Now, I'm sure Kevin L. that scott isn't listening to you. I'm not listening to you. But, if you said, since getting a misdemeanor arrest I have been given the boot by brazillian bar-b-ques, I am sure scott will be at attention. This is because scott, like I, understands that although all life is beautiful. Life at the brazilian bar-b-que is more beautiful.
For those of you who don't know about it, I would suggest reading an introduction to the subject by a more mediocre brazillian writer like silberstang or Saddam Hussein (who according to Davey has begun to write mediocre brazillian books). Anyhow, once you have a background, then I suggest you discuss it on an advanced plane with me.
Let it be said that the best brazillian eaters in the world, are, of course in brazil. And like Huck Seed, they could not care less for the forum.
Now, as for canadians. I have an apology to make. i saw the hurricane last night, and it was great. Canadians, like New Yorkers are great.
alex
I would just like to note that, for anyone not following jimmy jazz's "I'm a pansy" thread on the Hold 'Em board, Rounder informed him that he needs to up his red meat intake. As the Brazilian BBQ will allow you to consume your year's quota of red meat in a single afternoon for about ten bucks, perhaps young Jimmy should take heed of AlexB's advice.
Niels,
When my brother came out to visit last year we went to one for lunch with my buddy Greg. He had nineteen portions of red meat! And your right, the price was only around $10 bucks. Too bad he doesn't play poker. He wouldn't just call with trip queens. Vegetarians are wimps!
Regards,
Rick
it would certainly give me pause to hear that people convicted of misdemeanors are deprived of brazillian bbq. however, i trust that in our glorious nation one ammendment or another would shield me from such an atrocity.
have you been back to green fields? it's really sad. no more flank steak and smaller portions. they won't give you 2 pieces at a time. they have lots of business and don't remember when we were their only customers. ingrates.
hurricane was cool. much better than sitting in the lobby of the theatre, which is how maniac mark spent that portion of the evening.
did you hear that julia and shekar didn't ditch us? her car broke down. isn't that damn funny?
scott
scott,
my family hit greenfields for the first time 3 weeks ago. It's hard to imagine the place used to be better. It was terrific.
BTW I'm having a problem with the whole "small caps scott" thing because it's in actuality lower case scott. Small caps would be CAPITAL letters but all the same size as lower case letters. At this point I don't think we can effect a change but perhaps we can include an emoticon in your handle because of your affection for the little buggers.
small:-)capsôżôscott mmmm, . . . it needs work.
SammyB
where? is it a national chain? or are you in the dc area too? greenfields is damn good. but the flanksteak is, i mean was, even better than the sirloin. it was the best. and now it's gone. they used to have about 5 or 6 other types of meat. rabbit, etc. what i really missed was the flank steak. it was so good. gone. now it's gone. gone. gone and before you could say "leave the rest" and go to work. now you get one sliver each time they come around. it takes hours to eat. and they have the audacity to start trying to push you out of there after an hour and a half. we got great service about 10 months ago when we were the only people in the place. and now, just look at what its become. it's sold out, friend. sold out to the man!! it used to be one of us, and now it's just a looming shadow fading as the sun sets.
about the small caps scott thing, you are, of course, correct. but, unless you also only write in lowercase letters, scott is sufficient to distinguish me from the various Scott's.
how'd that big s get there? i think this line is traced. i have to go.
scott
I don't know if Greenfields is national but thtre is one on Northern Blvd 1 or 2 blocks west of the Van Wyck Expwy. If you're old enough to drive you can get there from Columbia in about 25 minutes. I'd take the Triborough to the Grand Central to northrn blvd and hang a right.
today I got me a new Super Chromatica Hohner Blues Harmonica. Its awesome, but was expensive. I figure it will be an investment on when I'm so famous that people will auction my musical instruments like they did Elvis'.
Haven't been back to green fields, but you can count on me to get all of the new metropolitan buzz on good food. A place near my dad's house just opened called the Peking Duck. 12.95 for a whole duck. And its a good duck. not bad, huh?
its a shame green fields slipped. We should open our own place.
a place near nist beats that. good peking duck for 9.95. but only for lunch.
we should open our own place. with our vast experience eating food we'd be assured success.
scott
I mean a GOOD duck.
i'm not picky. i just like duck.
scott
Sounds like a lotta harmonica. Keep us posted (heh) on your bluesy progress.
Only $12.95 -- and it's a good duck, eh? Always worthwhile to find a good duck.
I don't know much about duck, but you can't swing a dead harmonica without hitting a few turkeys around here.
Before I started reading this thread, I thought it was going to have something to do with Women's Lib. I suppose some of the infants on this board don't know anything about that.
are wearing a bra now!
ha ha.
who's got the last laugh
new york is still here
alex
I think you must be taking lessons from Paul Feeney, or maybe I'm just tired.
To the extent that I understand the message, it may be a new kink worth trying someday, but I'm not yet that desperate.
'
I am going to be moving to Seattle and would like some advice on the best places to play. Also any comments on the play in general, is it tough compared to other places or soft. I play limits around 10-20 but any comments on the Seattle poker scene would be helpful.
Jon (if that's your real name ;)
The best poker in the Seattle area is at the Muckleshoot casino in Auburn. Its about a 35 minute drive from downtown Seattle. Big room, very friendly staff and dealers and a very generous comp policy ($7 in food every session just for sitting down), the rake is reasonable too ($3 max on LL). They spread 1-5 up to 20-40 Stud and 4-8 to 20-40 HE (maybe some Omaha 8 or better too). I can only afford to play 4-8 so can't comment on your limit. In my game their are occasional maniacs but mostly people seeing way too many flops with bad cards, not raising too much, playing lots of draws and showing down with bad stuff. I have seen some folks move up to 10-20 after not exhibiting too much skill in the 4-8 games. Look for directions on the Muckleshoot web site.
There is another Indian casino in Marysville (about 30 miles N of Seattle) and a couple of smaller cardrooms around Seattle (none allowed in the city limits). One is called the Hideaway. My friends tell me the games there are super wild so I stay away. I would start with Muckleshoot and maybe ask some players there for other suggestions. My guess is they'll say don't bother with anywhere else.
As far as comparing it to other places I have not gotten around too much (only WA and Vegas). Local pros tell me that Washington State has some very high caliber players. Maybe others on this forum can corroborate that.
Maybe I'll see you around.
KJS
I owned and operated 2 cardrooms in S.King County for many years. We sold out just before the Muckleshoot went into bus. Never played there. For 10/20 the best game on the west coast is the Hideaway at 145th& Aurora. For everything else try Diamond Lils in Renton. Jon Kitna Huh,Hmmmm.... excellent poker is played in the northwest play good!
The muckleshoot is by far the best action for your money.The dealers are good and the shift managers are the best I've ever encountered.Scott & Jim on swing shift are the best in the business.Anybody gets out of line and the problem is taken care of ASAP,you are aknowledged upon entering the room,the atmosphere is friendly if not jovial,the food is excellent,the comps are loose.
I feel compelled to share one story about Muckleshoot that runs counter to Big Slick's comments. In qualification I will say that I have not seen anything like this happen since this episode. Overall, the staff seems top notch.
The story in question involved a 30ish maybe intoxicated man who gots his chips and jacket taken from a 4-8 HE table and his chips were not returned by the casino. He claims that he was getting low and wanted a minute to walk around so he left his jacket and $11 in chips on the table. When he returned (well under the time limit) his seat had been taken by someone else. His coat was returned to him but the staff did not acknowledge taking his chips and basically said tough luck. He sat at my table later and I witnessed much interaction with him and the floor and even casino managers. Unbelievably, they told him that he was obligated to take his chips when he left the table, even if he was going to return! Now there is almost always a list in that room so seats get gobbled up immediately. Besides, EVERYONE leaves their chips when they go to the bathroom, for a walk around, to eat, etc. That's how you reserve your seat. I was very suprised that the casino tried to pass off this rule in this case and, furthermore, chose to have the casino manager argue with this guy over $11 worth of chips in front of many partrons. The ruling was bad and it was bad tact to have such a conversation within earshot of the tables.
It did make me wonder if patrons would be allowed to see the videotapes in such a situation. It seemed to me there was some controversy about who took the chips and pocketed them. I was thinking that if I was the guy I would sternly ask to see the tapes to clear it up. Does anyone think the casino would oblidge?
KJS
Some lady at my poker table last night, made referece to the old adage "If a tree falls in a forest, and noboby is around to hear it, does it make a sound? She concluded that we'll never know. A few other people insisted that she was wrong, and that the falling tree would make a sound!
It's been my experience that many people see the old adage as some sort of philosophical question. But in high school, a science teacher of mine assured us that it's not a philosophical question, but rather, a physics question which basically concludes that, "If there aren't any ears around(or tape recorder)when the tree falls, then there ain't no sound."
There are three components that make-up sound.
(1)a source(Whatever creates the sound waves)
(2)a medium(That which the sound waves travel on, Air, Water, etc....)
(3)a receiver(Ears, tape recorder)
Take away any one of those components, and ala-Kazam, No Sound.
One of the funnest examples of this fact is to remove one of the most common mediums that sound waves travels on, which is air.
Our science teacher brought an old fashion alarm clock to class one day, which had two bells on the outside of the clock. He placed the clock on a class plate and turned on the alarm, which was incredibly loud. He quickly placed a clear class dome over the clock muffling the sound somewhat. He also had a small generator with a rubber tube that he hooked up to the dome to suck out the air. While the air was still in the enclosure, you could hear the alarm and of course see the little hammer banging away on the two bells. But as the air was almost all drawn out, you could hear the volume dropping (just like somebody turning the volume knob on a stereo down). Then, when the air was completely drawn out he turned off the generator. Let me tell you, it was so eerie seeing that little hammer banging away on those bells, but yet--No Sound! No sound what-so-ever! Nada! Zip!
I was going to try explaining what I had learned, but everybody's view seemed so etched in stone(BooZe temporarily does that), so I just listened.
quantum physics, if no one is there to see something, is that something still there?
brad
You could define sound to include just the first 2 components, and I don't see why that would be an improper definition.
The philosophical part has to do with the hearing. Every time we've been there to listen, the falling tree made sound. However, does that mean that the event necessarily produces sound every time, like when we're not there? Not a very important question, IMO, but that's what it is.
BTW, how come you didn't hear the alarm faintly ringing through the materials it was sitting on? I mean, sound does carry through solid objects, so some sound should have carred through the bottom of the container, where it came in contact with the alarm clock. Once it reaches the exterior, some of that energy will be transmitted to the air outside, and you would hear it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
There are a lot of silly conversations at poker tables and this is just one of them.
what if a man was alone in the forest without a woman and made a statement would he still be wrong(:>
well, go ahead and try it.
brad
'
d
except for a red breasted nuthatch there are no sounds in the forest as we got a foot of new snow last nite. you are all correct.
"Shoot em, clean em, cook em, eat em and mount em. Unless you only want to hold em." OK now you want me to hold them because of too much red meat. This is harder for me to understand than LL multiway.
OOTMB
great players are hard to read.
brad
Hi guys. When you're all finished with the tree in the forest...try one of the following:
1.How much deeper would the ocean be if sponges didn't live in it?
2.Is it a good vacuum cleaner if it really sucks?
Andy m.
This question has always irked me, if a tree falls of course it makes a sound even if "someone" (a human) isn't there because some other living thing is certainly there to hear it. That's the bottom line, no one can dispute this.
ATWOOD wrote: "of course it makes a sound even if 'someone'(a human)isn't there, because some other living thing is certainly there to hear it."
If you re-read the original post, Stewart wrote: "If there aren't any ears around, then there is no sound."
Well, other living creatures have ears, and Stewart's hypothetical is based on "there not being any ears around" to complete the circuit; (1)source, to(2)medium, to(3)receiver(ears and a working brain).
Of course the falling tree would create sound waves, but Stewart's contention is that, "if" there are no receivers around, then the circuit is incomplete, so there is NO sound--just sound waves.
Martin D
and no one pays to see it, is it still a full house?
Since there is no medium in outer space, there is no sound in outer space.
I don't get it. What does space have to do with psychic powers?
"What does space have to do with psychic powers?"
That's easy. All 'psychics' have a lot of empty 'space' between their ears.
I agree with you Stewart. If there are no recievers there when the tree falls, it would be like that scene in the movie 2001 A Space Odyssey, where the main star was stuck outside the ship because Hal refused to let him back in. Then he turned the pod's door towards the main ship's opened door. And when he blew the exploding bolts on his pod, which catapulted him into the ship, there wasn't a sound during the whole scene, cool!
Then he closed the door and turned the valve, which released air into the room, and the sound waves suddenly had a medium to travel on, so sound flooded the room. Cool......
Well Stewart, I'm no physics major, but I would have to say that it does make a sound. Now, i base my theory on two things
a)common sense
and
b) I don't know why there has to be a reciver for there to be sounds. Of course there must be a source, and there must be some means of travel for the sound waves, but why does there have to be an audio proof that the sound occured (i.e. ears, recording device). It seems to me that there must be another way to test whether or not sound waves were present. We know of course, that sound waves are a source of energy, that is, they can perform work. Kind of like the fat lady hitting that last note at the opera and shattering a wine glass...a silly example, but you get the idea...decide whether or not the sound waves existed, not whether anyone heard them.
mike
Mike said, "I don't know why there has to be a receiver for there to be sounds."
Mike,
Your brain turns sound waves into sound. Without a reciever, the whole event of a tree falling would be a silent movie. Just like it would be a silent movie if there is no medium for the sound waves to travel on.
-Randy
How about this, when a deaf man gets in his car after having it in the garage to be repaired, and feels the vibration of the sound waves blaring from the stereo, allthough he cannot hear the music, will you argue that the sound does not exist?
Mike,
The next time you're with a totally deaf person, ask him to help you with an experiment(assuming he reads lips). Have him put his hand on the hood of your car, then whack the hood really hard with a baseball bat, so he's sure to feel the vibration. Then, when the vibration stops, ask him what he heard. If he's confused by your question, just explain to him what you said to me in your post here at 2+2. I'm sure that will clear things right up for him, then you can post what he tells about how hearing and feeling a vibration are one in the same. Good Luck!
Randy
PS: Oh yeah, if you know any other deaf people who are looking for a good deal on a car stereo, be sure to let me know. Thanks!
I guess maybe I have been aproaching this question wrong. My point about the deaf guy and the mechanics at the garage turning his radio up were that he would sense the vibration produced by the sound waves. Randy, that is not the same things as pounding the hood of the car to make him feel the vibration. Now, there is a possibility that I am interpreting this wrong. I was trying to argue the fact that sound waves are present, which they are, but perhaps I am wrong. Maybe sound is a term for the interpretation of sound waves by your brain. In which case, if there are no ears in the forest, then no it does not make a sound. Furthermore, if you are there when the tree falls, it STILL doesn't make a sound, only sound waves.
So anyway, this is the second time today I have admitted I was wrong, so try to be kind, my ego is hurting.
mike
"Maybe sound is a term for the interpretation of sound waves by your brain. In which case, if there are no ears in the forest, then no it does not make a sound."
Actually, in this case, the tree falling doesn't make a sound whether a person is there or not. The tree never makes a sound it just makes sound waves.
As Randy himself said, "Your brain turns sound waves into sound."
But then again, is there fundamentally any difference between sound waves and sound? I don't think so. Is your brain really turning sound waves into sound or is it just receiving sound waves.
So really the answer depends on whether or not someone makes a distinction between sound waves and sound.
ok, I'll stop rambling now...
The brain does turn sound waves into sound, and if that part of the brain(the yahbadabadoola)is severly damaged, then you won't be able to hear a thing, even if your ears are in perfect working order.
Deaf people don't drive. They scoot
alex
.
Well, I was a physics major, and there is simply nothing to debate on this question. Here you go:
When a tree falls, the impact with the ground creates shock waves both in the ground, and through the air. The waves in the air will continue to travel until they die out due to the natural impedance of the atmosphere. If, along the way, they strike anything, they will impart energy to it. That energy will be converted into heat or mechanical motion. If the thing that they strike happens to be an ear drum, then the mechanical motion created will cause small bones in the ear to move, which will cause tiny cilia to also move and trigger nerve endings, which will transmit the information to the brain as 'sound'. If there is no ear in the way, the sound waves will just continue on.
So when the tree falls, the exact same thing happens whether anyone is there to hear it or not, in the same way that a radio station still broadcasts music even if no one has a radio turned on.
A lot of these 'philosophical' questions are just silly, and wouldn't even be debated if the questioners had the foggiest notion of the physics involved.
Next?
...about the refrigerator light?
Thanks, John. I attempted an empirical study, but slammed the fridge door on my head. Now I have a headache.
schroedinger's cat?
Dan wrote:
"If there is no ear in the way, the sound waves will just continue on"
I believe they're going to continue on whether there is an ear in the way or not.
However, if there's no one there to see it, is the tree really there at all?
here is the answer--
there is always a sound because when a tree falls sound waves are sent out. because a person is not there to here it doesnt mean something else is not. plants can and do hear and react to sound. when the tree falls other plants around it and itself if its still alive will hear and respond to the sound. plants have feeling too. remember that John Feeney when you eat your vegetables.
That is an interesting point Z.. While plants don't have ears, studies have been done that show plants react to sound, such as people talking to thier plants and playing music. Plants don't have ears, and they don't have brains, so even if they could "hear" the sound waves, they couldn't process them and turn them into actual sound due to a lack of a brain.
I'm not exactly sure which is true, but it seems silly to say that the tree doesn't make a "sound". Like I said before, it obviously produces sound waves ( a fact that is not in dispute), however, the argument is whether or not it produces "sound", as opposed to "sound waves". The plant example makes an interesting dimension to the problem.
How about this...if thier are no plants OR ears (or a recording device), then is there a sound?
Mike,
I don't mean to sound condescending, but I'm impressed with how far you've come in such a short time, from your first two posts in this thread, to your last post here to Ray Zee. In your first two posts, your arguments seemed so emotionally based. Then in your 3rd post, you start to calmly explain you're point of view. Now in this last post to Ray Zee, especially the last two paragraphs, you present some very well thought out points, totally devoid of emotion.
I realize how tough it can be to 'not' get emotional when we are faced with a point of view that's in direct opposition to our own.
Good Job! Martin D
.
We seem to be using two definitions of sound and hence all the confusion.
Definition 1: Tree falls causing soundwaves to travel thru the air.
Definition 2: Tree falls causing soundwaves to travel thru the air and be received by a receptor.
If we use D-2 then by definition,without a receptor, there is 'no sound'.
If we use D-1 then we can conclude that the falling tree does cause 'sound' because if it didn't we would not be able to hear it whether we were in the forest or not.
How do we know the falling tree caused soundwaves this time just because it did every other previous time? We don't! [David Hume].
As for Ray's last post [something [the plants] hear the soundwaves therefore the falling tree caused sound] implies that there must be a receptor for sound to occur [D-2].Liebnitz,a 17th or 18th century philosopher also believed that nothing exists unless it is perceived and that things exist even if no one is there to see them because God perceives them.
Personally I go with D-1.Our senses are for obtaining data from an objective universe who's existence is not dependent on us.
Andy M.
Ah, but we can often measure after the fact and find the effects of those sound waves. For example, if the sound waves touch a liquid, the liquid will ripple. If the liquid happens to solidify at that instant, the sound may be recorded in it (i.e. fast-drying paint). Also, with a sensitive enough thermometer, you might detect the increase in heat on objects as the sound waves hit them.
And of course, there's always a wax drum with a needle and a diaphram...
Know I've heard eveything! Mr. Zee, either I need to relearn what the definition of a fact is, or you need to stick to stud poker. Hmmmmmm, I think I'll go with the latter of the two.
Allen
the word 'know' and the word 'now', as in "Now I've heard everything."
plastic ball. Then someone struck his ball with a bat. that's what we should be talking about.
less chat more bat
hey scottie, "the dolphins cry" is a super good song by Live. And I found it by myself!
alex
Hey, I believe I was the one who told you that was a good song, so don't be going around saying "Oh, look at me, I know good music!". You're nothing but a hack, and a hack you'll always be I'm sorry to say.
Mark
yes, it is a good song and i am not surpised that alex could not even find this song himself. but, mark, the song is currently all over mainstream rock radio. and you discovered it!! you should be a detective.
and you are not sorry. you thrill yourself in rightfully declaring alex a hack.
scott
I never claimed to have discovered the song. I simply was the one who told Alex it was a good song when he was in my car and he hadn't really heard it before. Maybe one day if you learn to check your facts before you make an ass of yourself you could become a detective like me. But yeah, it is funny to call Alex a hack. I'd call you one too but I don't want to get stabbed.
also, i'm not a hack. I'm just as entitled to live as either of you.
also, i got some more good songs, also totally on my own some buffalo springfield, filter (credit mark), and aimee mann(she's actually pretty good, her music is on the soundtrack from magnolia)
mark, get your big ass up to visit
Bill Bruford's, 'One of a Kind'? If not, I'll have to assume you guys aren't musicians.
i'm not a musicion. i have heard of bill bruford and he is ok. i don't like chick singers, though. nothing personal, i just don't like their voices. jamesh is a musicion, a drummer in fact, let's hear what he has to say of bill bruford.
scott
I'm suprised you've heard of him. There is no singing on the 'One of a Kind' album though.
You would be suprised at what people know on this forum!!! Bill Bruford (excellent drummer)-King Crimson-Williams College fall of 1971. Robert Fripp (savage guitarist), David Cross (Violinist extroadinaire), anyway one of my favorite concerts of all time. Pete Sinfield broke off from Fripp because he said Fripp was a maniac. Lenny White is one of my favorite jazz drummers. He played in Return To Forever one of my favorite progressive jazz bands. Al Dimeola (favorite guitarist), Chick Corea (piano/harmonica), Bassist can't remember off the top of my head excellent.
Music to my ears.
paul
...He's got a harmonica!
Bro you know what they say about Harmonica players!!!!!
oh when the saints go over there oh over there oh over there i want to be in that rhumba when the saints go ove there
alex
hmmmmmmmm i think you need to do more reading than talking.
Oh, you mean like 'Alice in Wonderland', right?
Z is preparing your salad as I write this. There is no anecdote he grows them himself on COKE dung underneath the floor of his half-moon outhouse, which is really a subterranean cellar (lavoratory). You shall be able to hear the plants as they grow above you as you are transfer to meet "Alice In Wonderland". You will also understand the "Three Levels Of Play" and much more but your physical presence will be gone.
Drosophila
I just got a private email message from K_S telling me that he'd heard of a poker place in Portland by the name of the 123 Club (Chinatown/Downtown area). I've been here almost 6 years and never heard of it - seems like it would be a private/quasi(il)legal place. Has anyone ever heard of it?
I know some of you guys used to live in the NW... Little help, please! Thanks a lot Tim
Anyone know a website i can find up to date results a the carnivale of poker, besides rgp.
Go to rec.gambling.poker
Mike Paulle is doing a great job of covering each day's event in detail. He posts the full write-up each day on rgp in addition to the printed copies being handed out at COP.
Diane
x
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Any one know of a local game in the Manhattan, Ks area that I could play in? Any info would be appreciated.
Chuck
Looks like the rumors are true.
RGP has had several posts indicating that the TAJ is now non smoking.
I am going Sunday to see and smell it myself.
Danny S
now i may go back and play during their tournaments not that they need my business.
HATS OFF TO ALL THE TAJ POKER ROOM PERSONNAL!
Here's a conversation I had while playing at the Trop yesterday:
Me: So I hear the Taj went all non-smoking. Dealer: Yeah, this is the first weekend they've been. Me: Do the players like it? Have you heard anything? Dealer: Well, we've been VERY busy here!
shooter
Just returned from my first experience at the new Taj.
It was great. My sessions lasted a lot longer. I felt fine aftwerwards. And the poker room was packed.
Danny S
damn those poker rooms go non smoking and now they get so crowded you have to wait for a seat.
Friday started out just fine I won the local 100 player $30 buy in NL HE tournament $1500 1st prize money (BTW 2+2 and RGP poster Jeff delt the last table) and I had to hustle from Casino Arizona to the Airport to just catch my flight.
Got in about 5pm and immediately began to play satellites - 1st 3 I lost in the 1st few hands with QQ twice and AK - flopped a K. Well 4th satellite I got heads up and played it out for 30+ min. final hand was AKc all in against 78 - we each had about the same amount of chips and an 8 hit the turn. That one hurt a bit. Couldn't believe he called my big bet with 78 this guy was apretty good player and I put him on being better than that.
Looked for Vince, mah and Diane so many people fit their desctiptions Vince Black Bulls hat and mah with a black cowboy hat (1/2 the guys wear this stuff and I didn't see any blonds with a Green Bay Packer shirt. It would have been nice to see them I wish more would post their pics on Dicks page.
Sat. Morning won the 1st satellite and got my $500 chip for the big one in the afternoon played 2 others and got heads up in both lost with the best hand both times. Kept getting out drawn.
1pm $540 buy in NL HE - had to be over 600 in this one the tournament didn't start until 1:30 cuz of all the late folks signing up. T$500 to start. about the 5th or 6th hand I get pocket Q's make a raise to $50 and get raised to $200 very loose limper calls and I call K hits board I fold raiser shows AA - loose limper had K2 and won with 3 K's - that was it for me - I never saw so many 5-3 and 8-2 before I didn't see 3 flops. Last hand I had $150 and in late position had 88 went in and Tom McEvoy called my raise from the small blind. He had QQ and I was out after 2 hours of virtually nothing.
Well that is my sad story for the TOC - it was an uneventful trip.
Congrats for winning your way there in the local tourney. When you won the satellite and got a $500 chip was that your entry? If it was the experience did not cost you much. What is the SB doing with QQ? I wonder if we will read about that hand? Are you reporting real loose hands entering in a $500 event? Sounds like the $25 ones we have around here/ Dave
I don't call - a call QQ in the sb a loose call do you.
There are lose players at all limits. I was watching a pot limit game where there was TTx one heart and a lot of heat being applied by a guy with 3 T's caller called a $600 bet on the flop and $1000 on the turn and $1500 on the river with 5h4h caught his runner runner flush for a big win. Now that is loose.
CONFRONT CRAZY PANTS McGEE!!!!!!! LET ME TELL YOU BOY, THAT CRAZY PANTS WOULD HAVE STOLEN YOUR GOLD TOOTH FILLINGS TO BOOT!!!!! HE'S ONE SHIFTY CHARACTER, AND YOU HAVE TO STAY ON YOUR TEOS WITH HIM!!!!!! JUST THE OTHER DAY TOLLED HIM "I AM THE CHAMP OF THE WORLD", BUT HE SAID "NO DICE BABY". HE TRIED TO GRAB MY TROPHEE SO I CUT HIM DOWN WITH A GLARE. THAT WAS A CLOSE ONE SO TAKE MY ADVICE AND STAY CLEAR OF CRAZY PANTS McGEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Was trying to say QQ is quite a hand for SB when others are in for 8-2, 5-3 etc. Bad one to hit you. Our local casino is have a tourney early Feb with the prize being entry to the July TOC at Orleans $2000 entry events. Will invest in that one; and hope to get some cards. Last tourney snuck into the money with virtually no cards unless you count the QQQ I had that got rivered by a flush. Could not get him out of drawing to the flush as 2 flopped and he had AKs. Having good results from my Cloutier book. Regards, Dave
Is this Carnival of Poker? n/t
Obviously Rounder is talking about his trip to Vegas for the Carnivale of Poker (COP) He just got his initials mixed up.
Too bad he missed our lunch meeting. mah, Mason, Donna Harris, Jan Fisher, Lee Munzer, Mike Sexton, and a few others all showed up and had a great lunch courtesy of Donna Harris and the Mirage Cardroom.
Not sure where the idea came from of Diane being blonde! I have very short dark brown hair (better than my natural gray) tall and heavy. Generally hard to miss since every time I am in a game, my mouth is chattering away.
The physical set up of the tournament room at Harrah's was awful. As a result, I spent most of my time playing $10-20 and 20-40 at Mirage. I had a great time. Staff was friendly and efficient. Games were great and comps were available for players.
Mirage definitely has a niche with their evening tournaments also. They run them Sunday - Thursday evenings at 7 pm. Well attended, big prize pools and many name players were seen there each night.
Sorry we didn't get to meet, hopefully our paths will cross again soon. I will be down in Tunica the end of February for SARGE and then again end of March for Horseshoe's big tournament.
Diane from Green Bay
x
Well I am no big limit player, but I have some idea that this hand was absolutely crazy. I was just waiting for a table and watched the 10-25 PLO game that was the table right in front of the board, next to the "big" game the 25-50 PLH game. Two guys had all the money, big stacks of Benjamins. Most other guys were around the buy-in of a dime. One guy went all in 3 pots in a row, lost them all, and kept coming out with another dime from his pocket. He raised the next hand to $75 under the gun, 6 players call him, one folds, then the small blind calls and the big blind goes all in for $575. The UTG player then for the 4th hand in a row goes all in for $1000. One player folds, another thinks and then calls, one player folds, the next has a big wad of cash and calls, the guy after him is the other "big stack" so to speak and calls. The small blind has $800 of it and puts it in. So we have a pot of about $5500 before the flop with 3 guys in, one guy almost in, and two guys with enough money to buy my car still there. The flop ends up being 46J, the shortest player goes in for $300 I think, the two players call. The turn comes a 7 and the first player counts his money and bets 3 dimes. Player two thinks a bit, then goes over him with 7 dimes. Player one thinks for an eternity, then calls. River comes a 9, both players check. Player two wins this monster pot with get this, A359, nothing suited to make baby straight! Player one mucks his cards face up mumbling, he had JJ54, top set on the flop. The guy who went all 4 in a row has 8822. The big blind had aces, the guy who went in on the flop had kings, and the small blind had some garbage, i think 10662 with two hearts. You going to tell me this was a tightly played game? I haven't played PLO much, but I almost choked seeing how this played out. Sure these guys are real good, maybe good at gambling... There's my trip report for you, I didn't even get into my game, the list took over an hour and I gave up and played over at Bellagio instead.
Fellow Forum Members,
I'll be in Vegas from the 21st through the 23rd of this Month. I'll probably be hanging out in the 6/12 to 10/20 range Texas Hold'em and Stud games at the Mirage and Bellagio.
Dick was kind enough to put my Mug on his Players page, so if you see me stop by and say Howdy! I usually go by the handle "Leroy". He He He! Just too many of us Chris'es running around, and the Cardrooms always mangle my last name.
Now that I'm up on Dick's page I expect to see everyone else there too! Later, Chris
Arrived in LV this weekend. Getting my butt kicked so far. The highlight of the trip: Last night, while Vince and I were talking, Mason walked right between us, not knowing (or caring) who we were. Tried to get Vince to introduce himself, but he was just too nervous about being that close to his idol.
Not sure how Vince managed to cash in on that tournament, he has a nasty habit of raising (pre-flop) with JT. But we had a good time playing at the Mirage, with John Bond and Roy Cooke.
There are lots of live games at Harrah's, I have played in the 30-60 and 50-100, both had lots of action. There are also pot limit games with blinds of 10-25 up to 100-200. Both The Mirage and Bellagio were packed with players this weekend also.
Right now, I'm getting ready to go out and recoup my losses, so if you're playing with me and I raise, please don't call.
Brett
3-Bet, I will be in LV next week for a couple of days. I have a comp trip to Laughlin but will be scooting up to the Mirage/Bellagio/wherever on the 25th or 26th. If you are going to be around, I'd like to meet you. Out.
I'm planning to come up for this tournament probably for the 2/4 Limit HE & NL HE on 2/6 - any suggestions for a near by hotel.
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I'm certain he was just waiting for Vince Lepore to elaborate.
Not sure if you are serious , but I never heard you.
Post deleted at author's request.
Yeah yeah, it's a bit premature to post this, but considering all of the young ivy leaguers that are now on the forum, I think prematurity is appropriate.. :)
I'll be in Vegas Memorial Day Weekend - Not sure yet where I'm staying, but I'd love to get together with any, according to Abdul, twoplustwoskies that happen to be in the area - Either let me know here, or email me privately.
Thanks, Tim
But I do plan to be at some of the big ones this year - what is happening that week.
hmm... I dunno - I am ordinarilly lucky to plan mere days ahead, however, I am going with a LARGE group of rather anal anthropology/archaeology buddies, and THEY are making ALL of the travel arrangements. So, Tim does NO work!! Yah-Hoo!
So, aside from the pleasures of card playing, anyone who chooses to get together, especially with this motley group of social scientists, will no doubt be subjected to lengthy ramblings of the corporate and socio-economic power structure...
& all I wanna do is play cards....
sigh...
Methinks that I will not be playing in any tournies, unless there are REALLY cheap ones (as my tourney play, uh, blows), so I cannot help you, Rounder, as far as what's happening. Hopefully something - I'd love to meet you.
Thanks, Tim
Besides playing poker I am an ultra right wing conservative who loves to argue with social scientists, about the filures of liberalism. Could be fun. :-)
:)
Well, despite my seemingly hippie appearance, I, too am surprisingly "conservative," especially when coupled with my leftist pinkocommiebastard mates- Tho,
Now I will contradict myself. I am most liberal, actually, in that I don't really care what other people do or think - It's their life - whether it's views I espouse or despise... Perhaps I am just a Libertarian at heart...
Now I REALLY hope we can get together, as one of my friends will NOT shut up when on a tirade... It'll be fun to see an older man tear her apart... hee hee...
I just want to play cards.... Thanks, Tim
Heh, finally it happened to me too, got an idea stolen... What a breaktrough for my reputation! "Twoplustwosky", that's according to Izmet, my friend... :-)
---
DAMN!! I'll get it right someday!!
BTW - RE: your website. Is it underconstruction, or are the non-linkable areas just topic headings? Thanks, Tim
Under construction, always. I plan to turn those headings into links.
---
does anyone know if any vegas casinos rate poker like they do table games for comp purposes?
From my personal experience only:
Casinos generally view poker players as being their least important customer. We do not rate free rooms, airfare, etc type programs that active craps, slot, or pit games player qualify for. Even though we may spend more total hours glued to the tables.
However, most poker rooms are able to offer you meal comps if you play several hours. Then once you are "known" to the room as being a regular or semi-regular visitor, you can qualify for a reduced room rate at the standard "casino" rate. This is generally half of normal full rack rate.
Many players though have also found comparable room rates or even lower rates through the internet specials and by accessing the casinos web page for specials.
In terms of Vegas, I feel that the Orleans is the best value in terms of room rates available to poker players. They offer $35 rates M-Thursday and $55 on weekends. However, where you stay is generally also influenced by where you want to play. Orleans is good value for low limit players + it offers a bad beat jackpot to chase after.
If you are interested in the higher limit games, then stay at Mirage for $79/109 poker rate or considerably higher at Bellagio.
Hope this helps a bit.
Diane from Green Bay
When is the WSOP special being telecast I seem to remember 1/19 for some reason - or was it the TOC - I must be getting old memory slipping.
Thanks anyway.
WSOP is on Discovery Channel tonight 7pm CST and again at 10pm CST.
Diane
Speaking of table game comps, and others, what is the best game to play if you are trying to earn comps? In particular, is it possible to earn comps at specific games which cause the ev of the game to become greatly positive (say > $10/hr)?
Any information on craps and/or slot comp systems up and running?
- Andrew
My cousin gets flown to AC from Long Island, they pick him up in a limo and give him his meals and a room all he hs to do is play 8 hours of video poker at a 50 cent machine. His basic strategy gives him a 97% return on a machine, full houses 9 straights 5.
Try reading "The Frugal Gambler" by Jean Scott. She claims that she lives for free several months out of the year in Las Vegas and comes home with a profit. She primarily plays positive-expectation video poker machines, but also counts cards in black jack and takes full advantage of promotions.
Also try "Comp City" by Max Rubin. His comp engine is black jack. Mason Malmuth gives out a few ideas as well in his article "Free Bets and Other Topics," which can be found in "Gambling Theory."
Most casinos treat poker players a lot worse than pit game players. They would rather have a bunch of slot playing Zombies than a bunch of poker players.
A slot brings in around $800 a day profit. a lot more per Sq foot than poker tables plus the number of staff required is a fraction in the slot room.
I suspect if push comes to shove the 1st thing eliminated from a casino is gonna be the poker room.
Can anyone give me an internet site where I can order Doyle's book online. Thank you.
I have heard it is out of print. I have seen copies at my local Gamblers World the number there is. 480-968-2590. They take credit cards and will ship for you.
Look on the bottom left corner of this web page and click on Conjelco.
D.
The 1999 WSOP tape is on the Discovery Channel tonight. It's at 9:00 in MST; in other time zones, look it up.
Dick
xx
Actually, that's the Discovery documentary, and it's showing at 8 p.m. EST and again at 11 p.m. EST.
Young asian guy went to vegas with partner,they had bankrolls $ 10,000 each,played PAI GOW and won 3.4 millons. They splited money but Asian guy continued to win up to 22 millons,it take him a year to lose all back. Now he learns to play poker 3-6 hold'em.
it is indeed a lucky story. many gamblers want to lose so they have a purpose and goal. now he is happy. plus he can play a game he may actually have the best of it. thanks for sharing this wonderful story with us.
Post deleted at author's request.
xx
I'm surprised they let online poker players post here at all!! Well, next those online players will want to ride in the front of the bus and drink from the same water fountains as the rest of us real poker players. Where is it going to end? ôżô
boy i was so excited when i clicked on the idea of the millenium. i had such visions of great ideas. it may be a good idea but is this your best idea of the millenium? or are you using yellow journalism.
Rather than relegating us to our own ghetto, I think you non-online players are going to have to get with the program. Predicting the future is tricky, but I suspect that within the next few years, certaily less than five, at any given time more persons will be playing in online games than live casino games.
Reasons include:
1) much lower rakes
2) more convenient
3) can be anywhere, not just close to a casino
4) any efforts to ban it will prove futile if law makers are stupid enough to try
5) improved technology will eliminate or ameliorate its curent problems
6) pros will find that they have much better game selection opportunities
7) good customer service will be the primary way that online casinos can distinguish themselves from their competition
Bill im afraid you are right. online will take over the poker world as far a quantity and quality of games. it will be sad to lose the social aspect of the game. the only hope is for casinos to improve their treatment of players but that i dont see unless its in a place that only offers poker.
Anyone know where I can purchase WSOP vids? any or all years. thanks
Click on the link to your left marked ConJelCo.
I enjoy all of them EXCEPT the 1999 version it is so bad you can't tell what is going on and found my self yelling at the TV "WHAT DID THEY HAVE" unless you are collecting them and want the full set I'd suggest skipping this one and buying the 1999 version from The Discovery channel - they advertised it for 19.00 last night after the telecast of the 1999 WSOP.
vince.
Come on Vinny - you with nothing to say.
WOW a 1st. Sorry I missed you - hey were you playing a NL HE satellite on Sat morning?
There was this guy dressed in black with a bulls hat and I thought it might be you.
Unbelieveable! That were me! I looked and looked for you! I know that I am so beautiful that one would feel intimidated by my gorgeousness, but come on. Ssay hello! I missed the lunch with dianne because it was the same time as the Stud tournament so I din't get to meet some of the other folks here on 2+2. Next time I'll do my darndest to meet folks. I played with Mason but was too intimidated to introduce myself. Plus, I liked being anonymous. If he knew I was at the table I'm sure the fear of playing with his master student would have been to much for him. He would have crumbled.
I ran into 3 Bet Brett. Mason actually walked between us while we were discussing the 2+2 forum. We (me not Brett) were going to pull a wayne's world and drop down on the floor and proclaim "Were not worthy, were not worthy". I don't know if Mason would have appreciated that or not. If it were Sklansky I would definitely have been in the bowing position. Of course I'm sure he gets that all the time. Well next tournament. Vienna!
Vince.
I offered Vince $50 to sneak up behind Mason and whisper the secret word into Mason's ear, but Vince didn't think Mason had a sense of humor.
Personally, I think it would have been worth ten times that much.
Brett
I'd of done it for $1! LOL
OK that really cool looking blond with the big head lights at your satellite table you were seat 8 or 3 and she was 3 or 8 and from Phoenix so were a couple of other guys at the satellite table. I was gonna wait for you to leave the game but got distracted and went in the main room when I got back you were gone. Well next time.
Rounder,
You need a better set of glasses. Those weren't head lights.
Vince.
Vince,
Help me out. I know you are from Boston (I'm a New Englander myself), but I had always gotten the impression you were a Bellagio/Mirage player and lived in Las Vegas. I'm asking because we were thinking of buying you dinner later this year if you lived in Las Vegas.
Regards,
Rick
Gee Rick if you guys are buying I'll fly out for a free dinner. Vegas is only 40 min from Phoenix.
:-)
PS see you is a couple of weeks coming out for the Commerce on the 4th.
Rick,
I lived in Vegas from Jan-July 1999. Family obligations forced me to move to Boston, for a short while I hope. I try to get to Vegas as often as possible. I love it there. I love the poker even though I agree with Badger about the smoking. It really sucks. I love southern Cal also and will look you up on my next trip. I plan on being in vegas during the world series. May see you then. Thanks for the dinner offer. Please bring your student. You have no idea the effect young pretty girls, er.. students, have on the elderly.
Vince.
Their coverage albeit tarty - a 7 month old event - was good, head and shoulders above the poor effort Binions made for the 1999 WSOP. I'd like to see more videos of the Big events. I know the TOC made one but I really am not interested in paying $50 for a video those are rip off prices and I don't like to be ripped of.
Great Show.
It was nice that they simply covered the event without moralizing about the destruction of society or other peripheal issues.
D.
I also saw the show, and was impresses. The show was so good that even my wife (not a poker player) was impressed) She made a statment that I thought was funny. She asked if you had to dress bad to play in the tournament? I thought that was funny.
But It was a nice inside look at some of the top players of the game, talking about hands and discussing about other players. I could not belive that the last 2 players at the table had won super satalites to get their birth in WSOP.
Over all great show.
If you knew how hard it was to win a super-satellite, that might not surprise you. Despite his tournament successes and tournament books, McEvoy sets the record for futility, having never won one. While you might get by with a minor mistake or two in the Big Event, even one fine-line mistake late in a super is almost always fatal. I think Badger alluded to this in a different thread, but fast action tourneys do not give bad players the advantage that is commonly believed -- events like supers simply take a different attitude.
.
It was a good show and would even have been better if they had showed Seidel's Ace high 150,000 call of a stone cold bluff from Goering.
I enjoyed how accurately they portrayed Phil Hellmuth as being a crybaby.
XX
It wastes time looking up so many of your messages just to see "XX", when it could have been easily avoided.
Thank You, Barry
.
xx
.
I enjoyed how Seidel took his painful river loss very maturely. Totally world class.
"He stayed with a jack......!" com-on phil, you were on TV. Chill dude
Did you hear T.J Cloutier say he remembers hands from 5 years ago (even if he played against a player once or twice). I hope he was not too serious about it or if he was I hope he is the only one.
P.S. really enjoyed the show. Wish there would be more shows like this one.
yea, tj tells me about hands i played against him 20 years ago. and he remembers all the stuff and i have no idea what he is talking about.
I thought they did a good job too, especially when they showed me in the gallery on the third day of the tourney. I think they said you can buy the tape of that program for 19.95.
I disagree. Although the show was appealing from a poker players point of view I don't think it captured the excitement of playing the final table of an event like the WSOP. It was nice seeing familiar faces that most of us recognize from our poker playing tournament trips. But it would have been better if the producers would have focused on the excitement of the event. I'm not sure how or if that can be done but it is what the World series and other major tournaments are all about. Someone unfamiliar with the World Series might just not understand what all the fuss was about. It was obvious that not much money was invested in documenting the event. I did think Daniel Negreanu came accross as a bright young individual that could be a good spokesman for Poker. I think that Phil Helmuth did a good job also. TJ was, well, he was there. Noel Furlong did not impress me. He did not appear to appreciate the fact that he was playing for the world championship of poker. Just another day to a wealthy business man. I believe Chris Bigler would have made a good champion from a PR point of view. He showed a lot of enthusiasm and seemed to be the only one of the group that was truly enjoying the experience. Huck seed looked like he was in a boring ring game and was ready for bed. It was disappointing not seeing David or Mason or Ray there.
Vince.
Missed it. I was at the Casino getting my ass kicked for a rack and a half. Anyone know if/when it is on again?
In January 2001 they'll show the 2000 WSOP. Be there or be square!
I enjoyed it but I wish it was longer to allow more time to show exciting hands, like the Seidel call. I was glad to see the hand Huck Seed got knocked out on b/c its received a fair amount of attention but more hands would have been nice.
I have come across this several times in low limit hold'em at the Taj Mahal.
There is a little group of Asians that always seem to be playing in the same games. It does not appear to me that they are playing together, with the possible exception of them being less likely to bet when it is down to just two of them in one pot (which happens infrequently in low limit since there seems to always be someone else in the pot). However, when any one of them wins a pot, they throw the other one big bet (if it's a decent sized pot) or a small bet (if it's a small sized pot). They mutter something about a "contract".
My question is does the Taj Mahal allow players to give chips to other players at the table? I have seen this happen several times and at no time has any dealer or player questioned it. And should this annoy me?
let them have fun. they arent cheating just bending rules that dont hurt anyone really. ive played lots with people throwing bets back. ive even done it myself with players that like it and enjoy the interaction. they like to play together and so what. it all works out best for you in the long run. the only drawback may be it could cause some others not to play.
It is common among certain players at Taj and Trop. It often happens when 2 players are head to head and one wins a pretty big or close pot. It is essentially the winner puts up the ante for the looser. Usually just a friendly gesture. Common among some regulars. I have been "flipped" a bet by the winner on occasions. No harm here
I have been playning in casinos (mostly 5-10 hold'em) for the past 18 months and I have finally turned 21 so I'd like to start playing in tournaments. Simple question: can someone explain the rebuy structure and how it should affect my play. Thanks in advance, Kevin Concannon
Rebuys normally take two forms unlimited for the 1st 3 or 4 rounds and 1 or 2 rebuys or add ons by the end of the 3rd or 4th round.
In unlimited rebuys there is always several nuts playing very loose trying to win with nothing and build a big stack rebuyins as much as it takes - you can score on these guys because it is easy to isolate them and strike with good hands - so the rebuy period is a lot like a 2/4 game. It is a lot different after the rebuy period is over. The game really tightens up as you can no longer buy more chips.
I tend to play pretty tight in the rebuy period and loosen up after when the blinds go up and a big bet means something.
Hope you have success.
Only in the United States would you find people who want to keep a 6 year old Cuban child from his Father, while at the same time allow O.J. Simpson the custody of his own kids.
Go Figure, Tony
xx
That's the best line I've heard regarding 2+2. Not sure if he wants me to tell you who said it, so no attribution.
Brett
x
This is another reminder to send me your photo, if you want to be part of this wondrous collection of faces - found at http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/photos.htm. We are up to nine pictures - still woefully inadequate.
Don't forget, you can snail-mail me a regular photo and I can scan it in. My address is at Annabelle's Treasures Contact Page.
Dick
Post deleted at author's request.
I can photograph rick off my Caro tape with my digital camera. OK Rick.
Student & Lady Gambler we need a gal on the pic page come on in the water is fine.
I keep trying to upload my picture, but I can't get it past the ugly filter on the firewall.
Seriously, I suppose I can find a photo and scan it. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Post deleted at author's request.
..Sklansky and Zee's combined lifetime poker earnings (or at least earnings at ~$40-80 HE), according to DS's post on the HE board.
Lemme see, I get: (10`100)`(1/15)=4,641,588.83=w
"Sixty years combined experience";[w/(60*2080)=$37.19]
Assuming that DS & RZ contributed roughly 50/50 to 'w', I've got David grinding $40-80 for ~21.5 hours to pay Badger off on that TOP reading bet. $18.60 per hour at 40-80??!! Hell, put me down for the $6-12 games at the Commerce...
.
uh...they share the hours too. so $40/hour. but i still think david was just speaking figuratively. also, i don't think he actually owns a math hat or a i-win-more-money-than-everyone-combined hat. but, if he did, that would be damn cool.
scott
..I kinda messed up the ol' hourly rate there. However, you shoulda seen some of the numbers I was coming up with when first trying to calculate 1/15 root of a googol. Initially, I got 1.46....
here's an easy way to get an approximation in your head.
the 15th root of a googol is the same as 10 to the 6 and 2 thirds. 10^6 is just a million. 2 cubed is 8, so the cube root of 10 is a little more than 2. so 10^(2/3) is a little less than 10/2. so you get a little less than 5 million. i would have guessed 4.7 or so, but a few hundred thousand doesn't really matter at this scale.
scott
kinda shows you got to improve and play higher stakes. see poker pros make less than a plumber and even have to wear a belt to keep their pants above the crack.
ray,
Some don't bother with the belt. Years ago I saw the final event of the Diamond Jim Brady Tournament where there was one "world class" (or should I say world classless) player spend the entire final table displaying about five inches!! of what I will delicately refer to "the less attractive form of cleavage". The thirty or so spectators in the bleachers slowly emptied out as it was clearly making them sick. And some hope for corporate sponsorship of tournaments. Yeah.
Rick
I don't think David plays 40 hours a week, and I would bet that Ray doesn't either.
If you try 20 hours a week I think you'll get better numbers.
If you just look at it from a per year basis, you get them making about 75K per year. Not bad.
- Andrew
Per year is definitely a better way to look at it. Plus, 40-80 HE probably isn't the only game they play, either.
.
There will be a small buy-in ($50.00) $1-2 blind NL Hold'em ring game at the Commerce tonight at 7:00.
So far, the 1, 2, 3, 4 and 9 seats are locked up. I am willing to play head's up, three way, four handed etc. This game is usually a lot of fun and sometimes degenerates into a serious money game. I've seen as much as $50,000 on the table when it was a $100 buy-in game. I hope you can make it
John wish I could - I'll be there in early Feb. Hope to get a Mike Paulle type report but you can skip the notables present section :-)
Mike
I'd like to play w/you tonight but can't make it. I will look for future postings about any games you get together.
I think it would be great to meet some of the folks who post here.
MDJ from So. CA.
with all the rocks there at the commerce club id go to the bike for the easy pickings.
Speaking Of Cracks,
What are some of the best one liners you have heard at the tables when someone either said something or got beat in a hand???
paul
"I didn't wanna win that pot anyways; all that stackin'..." -Johnny Moss-
I saw a hand a few months ago where one player flopped a full house, the other was unaware (bad player, very fatigued) and stayed in to the river with bottom pair, I think it was 3's or something. So the hands were something like:
Winner: AK Board: AKK53 Loser: 34
After the showdown, another player says to the loser, "Aw man! That's some bad beat!! Do they have a jackpot for that?". The loser didn't even realize how badly he was being ragged on.
s'est la vie!
I was sitting next to a downshifter. Playing 1-5 7CS he started telling me he usually plays 5-10. He is powering people out and catching on the end in the beginning so he's ahead. He is peaking and a hand comes up he has a K up on 3rd street and I had AA/7 he raises and I reraise. It turns out he wins the hand he catches two pair but he was so certain I had trips that he checked all the way until I stopped betting on 6th street when he catches another pair on the board. He bets the river and I drop I didn't catch. He goes through this whole speal about how I played it wrong so on and so forth. I don't say nothing. A couple hours later his 7th card philosophy goes south and he loses his $200 dollars and gets up to leave. I say to him "Thanks for the lesson, this game was too easy for you, you must be going to play 5-10 now!!!" Silence and he left.
Paul
I LOVE THAT!
I see that all the time! Players are playing like s&%t, and then have the stones to say 'I'm just waiting for a seat at the 10/20 tables!'. When I hear that, I feel like a cartoon character with a question mark in each eyeball.
YAWAWAPF!
Vince.
I was playing in a hand where the flop was 3h 6s Qd. The turn comes 7c. The bet gets around to this one guy who says 'I raise. . .I'm on the flush draw'.
Don't tell me...he scared some hands out with that comment.
shooter
My favorite line at a poker table happened at a 5-10 game at the Taj. A gregarious guy was just coming in from a break and told the dealer to deal him in as he was getting settled. I don't know how but he fell off his chair. He got up settled down again and won the hand with QQ. As the next hand was being dealt I asked him, if you fall out of your chair for QQ what do you do with rockets. He said, "I stand up and shout I've got rockets." He looked at his cards and stood up and said, "I've got rockets!"
And he did.
A friend of mine was playing 1-5 stud with a real loudmouth. So my friend's real tight, and the other guy kept saying "Man, you're so obvious, you never come in unless you've got a monster." Well, a couple of hands later, my friend and this guy were in the same pot togther heads up from 3rd street. My friend keeps hammering all the way to the river, when the other guy drops, saying "See, if you varied your play a little, I'd call you, but I know you've got a winner." My friend pauses for a bit before shoving his cards to the dealer, then flips over a king high, and says "So I played THIS wrong?" The other guy is irate, goes on tilt, and runs through $200 in an hour.
Bill
i was playing $50 limit in oregon in the 1970's. i was dealing three card lowball with three draws. on the second betting round both stand pat and first guy bets and 2nd guy calls. ist guy says i got a seven low. the 2nd guy says that beats my eight. i say, hey guys there is another draw left. first guy says im still pat and 2nd guy says the same. first guy bets 50 and 2nd guy calls. first guy says i still got the seven low and 2nd guy say that still beats my eight. true story with two very bad players.
that can't be true!!! were they drunk? functionally retarded? are you sure you weren't dreaming?
scott
one of many absolutely true stories.
I caught so many gut shot straights that the other players at the table started calling me willie mays.
Said with obvious sarcasm after a bad beat, "how much do you have to win to get even?"
Yesterday, the Minnesota legislature approved the card club at the track. It will open on April 10th. They are considering several games, but will narrow it down to 6. Limits will be maxed at $15-30.
Also, "Backline betting" (?) will be allowed on 2 tables. What is this exactly? They said it will be allowed on some "California Games".
80 Days to go!
Backline betting happens in a game like blackjack when all the available seats at the table are full.
I could stand behind a cooperative player and place my bet next to his and benefit from whatever decision they made with their hand. Original seated player makes all the decisions and I just ride along with him with my bet.
Gives you the feeling of playing when all spots are taken.
Diane from Green Bay
i am planning a trip to puerto rico in april. anyone know the best places to play poker - holdem. i have searched on the internet and only came up with two places - and they do not answer the phone. any other advise/help/interesting things about the area is appriciated/vano
Tonight we kicked off the first Friday Mason Malmuth Invitational Big Bet Outing at the Commerce Club. Rick, student, Scott Horton and I had a nice seafood buffet before starting the game at 6:45. We had expected a 7:00 start, but decided we's crank her up early.
Within five minutes of starting, we were playing eight handed, had a full game within 15 minutes and managed to play with a pretty full table until Rick and student had to leave just before 12:30. We were joined by three people who were former regulars at the Commerce NL ring games of 1996. There was a lot of laughing, a little drinking, some astute playing and some less than astute playing as well. Rick had pocket aces four times at least, flopped a set of eights against me and had many other big pocket pairs which stood up except for one pocket queens that lost to Scott Horton's pocket kings.
Student showed good attitude and aptitude for big bet poker and proved early on that she wasn't going to be intimidated or pushed around in the game. I'm not sure who fared better in the win loss column, but I am sure that student had a very good time and liked the format a lot. If the cards hadn't favored Rick so one sidedly, I know which way the pendulum would have swung. Scott Horton was the only player at the table who didn't have to reach into his pocket and pull out more money. I started out pretty well, but played somewhat faster and looser than Mason might approve, losing a little bit overall. The entertainment value was certainly worth the cost to me.
Next week, we will reconvene at the Bicycle for some NL Mexican Stud action. You are all cordially invited.
John sounds like a nice time hope none of our friends got stuck too bad.
I made my reservations yesterday I get in LAX on 2/4 at 4:15 I'm getting a rental car and should be at Commerce club by 5 hope to play in a satellite and the $300 buy in at 6:30 - I am also looking forward to the Sunday NL HE tourney at 2:30. Maybe we can get up a NL ring game Late Friday - I hope real late :-)
The way I have been going in tournaments lately maybe I should just stay home. Have played in 10 so far this year. 1 Win - 7 under 20th (last 2 tables) 4 11ths or 12ths close but no cigar. Satellites played 7 at the COP - 3 early exits 2 with QQ and one KK - 4 got to heads up - 1 win and 3 loses ahead on every last hand and got out drawn.
Hey do the they even out - seems like everytime I go allin with QQ some guy flops 2 pair.
Sorry to ramble - need a shrink these days - no one understands ME.
Cheers, Mike
Mike,
I'll see you when you get here. I'm sure we can get another small ring game going sometime while you are here. On my way out the door to play some tennis. Catch you later.
its good to see you suckers getting together for a friendly game. too bad i wasnt there to take ya all off. i guess im glad as i might have had to been behind you in the buffet line. rick got lots of aces because i had 50% of him and my friends were dealing. thanks for the action. ill send my mexican friends in to play with you at the bike as i need to get some new impluse couplings for my magnetos on you. ill be heading down cal. way soon for some sunshine and may come in a few joints incognito to bust a few.
Ray -- I hope you can pull off the incognito thing, but I don't like your chances. When I first spotted you in Oceanside last year I recognized you from *behind*. It was the shape of your hair or something.
By incognito, I presume you mean you won't be carrying that sandwich board sign that Mason usually insists you wear when walking through a card room. I happen to believe it is a very tasteful ad for 2+2 books, but it does make it difficult for people to not recognize you and David.
I almost went to the Bike this evening to take on your Mexican Posse, but my car steered itself to the Normandie instead. I had to get back my losses from last nite's NL action. It took me the better part of an hour, but I managed to beat the 15-30 lowball for 10 big bets and still get home for supper.
If David would pay Badger that $400 he promised for him reading the Theory of Poker book, (and claiming not to have learned anything) maybe Badger would have come to the Mason Malmuth Invitational Big Bet Extravaganza and rescued me from all those "rocks". I have it on good authority that Badger spent 4 years in high school and didn't learn anything, so how hard would it be to not learn from one little book?
If you had been there Ray, it would have really livened up the game. We would have lowered the buy-in for you if that would have made the difference. Just ask. We all know that while DS kept his half of that fifteenth root of a googal you guys won, you blew off most of yours backing the less gifted players. Maybe you and Mason get put in together and you do the playing while he sits behind you and watches?
Big John,
Great time. Great game. Great stories. Collectiion sucks. I got lucky. Never had so many big pairs that stood up. Student doubled up on me then went on to triple up with three kings and almost get even. Highlight of the night. Student bets $130 to steal $3 in blinds and shows a 55. She said she was sick of me getting all the big pocket pairs.
Regards,
Rick
A good time was had by almost all. Thanks for putting this one together John.
My favorite moment was at the conclusion of the session when John takes a final jab at his old buddy Steve and sez "OK Steve it's time to compare...How much money do you have left? I've still got $1200, can you still buy gas?"
His name was Scott. My favorite moment was when Student shoved it all in when there was $3.00 in the pot. I was watching Rick's face at the time.
Second on my list is when Frank and Scott Y. bet and called $100 each with the straight draws and both checked the river for a showdown of 7-6 vs. 2-3. It absolutely shocked me that Scott didn't bet his last $120.00 into that $300 pot. I guess he thought 2-3 might win it?
This Friday nite we'll be at the Bike playing NL Mexican Stud. I hope that some 2+2'ers can make it down and get a nice little game going. So far it looks like Rick, Student and I will be there. The game is played maximum 7 handed, so it shouldn't be hard to have our own game. The rake is $3.00 per hand and the ante is only $1.00. The buy-in will be $100.00. Just a friendly big bet game to liven up your weekend.
We all use coin flips as an example of something that has a fifty fifty chance of happening, but is this true? Years ago someone told me, I think it was my ninth grade biology teacher, that an experiment using mechanical flippers found that heads actually comes up about fifty-one percent of the time. Does anyone know anything about this?
it would be likely depending on the coin as the heavier side should end up down.
Try balancing a coin on its edge and then banging the table. It doesn't fall 50-50 each side.
Wouldn't it take several hundred thousand attempts to really confirm this? I'm a little too busy to see if you're right...
shooter
I read somewhere that the head side actually weighs a little more than the tail side.
It's true that the coin is not completely unbiased, but the effect is nowhere as great as 51/49. It'd be more like 50.005 - 49.995, and it would be a different value for every denomination of coin, and for the amount of wear on an individual coin. Not exploitable.
As long as we're being trivial about it, I would surmise it would also depend on the material onto which the coin was flipped. If it was caught in hand the determinig factor would more likely be the rotation of the coin and the timing of the catch. (This assumes that the rotation has not been so impeded by resistance as to slow to the point that the coin stops rotating and gravity acts on the heavier side.) Same if it landed on something like a bed where it would not rebound. However, if it was allowed to drop to a hard floor or something like a drum then I believe the difference in weight between the obverse and converse sides of the coin would come into play.
On a hard floor there might also be a difference due to surface texture on one side vs another. If one face has a picture that is relatively smooth and uniform and the other has some pointy bits, then they will rebound differently.
Then there are the small number of cases where the coin will come to rest standing on its edge.
But there is something I'd worry about if someone offered me a coin-flipping game - I'd worry that the guy was able to control the flip, or to substitute a loaded coin, or use sleight-of-hand to place the coin the way he wanted when he picked it up, etc. If the game involves catching the coin and slapping it onto the back of the hand like many people do, there's ample opportunity for a good coin manipulator to make the game come out the way he wants.
When you brought up the possibility of the coin landing on its edge I laughed out loud and knew we had definitely reached the bottom of the barrel on this one.
No, wait... You haven't heard me expound on the possibility of a freakish quantum tunneling effect causing the coin to vanish.
I was going to continue, but in a rare statistical event all of the air molecules in the room decided to go the same direction at once and I passed out from the pressure drop.
nt
Do you know any stories of an angry player who either beats up a dealer at the tables, or maybe waits for him to get off duty out in the parking lot?
It's just that this loose cannon at my table last night(who was killing the table at one point) swore he was going to get this one dealer who kept giving him good hands that kept getting drawn out on(the floor man had to be called over to try and calm him down). He had lost almost all the money he had won in the course of just ONE dealer! Anyway, it made me wonder if any of these lunatics ever follow through with their threats.
-dsm
I was followed out to the parking lot one night after skinning this hot head and his pal. I circled back and got 3 rolls of quarters and put them in my sock - then thought better of it - and got this security guard to go with me - they saw us and ran away.
I have never heard of a dealer getting beat up. Johnny Hale told me a story about a really well known bad tempered player who put his cigar out on a dealers arm in California.
i think if we allowed players to beat up the dealers the dealers would be less likely to deal us a losing hand dont you think. actually there have been more dealers beating up the players. years ago at the dunes casino puggy got in a fight with a dealer, an asian lady and then her husband got involved,next she threw handfulls of his 100 dollar chips out in the pit area. then she was beating him on the head with her high heal shoe while he was wrestling with her husband. i got this one second hand from someone who was there so it may be a bit off. one day ill write a book with the great stories of the game.
I'll be the first one to buy.
The guy a alluded to in my post was Puggy. Guess he is a real piece of work.
I'd cater "Exclusively" to poker dealers. Particularly those at Hollywood Park, 3rd shift!
Bone chilling implied odds and sadistically awesome pot stealing opportunities await you at Sam's Town (Vegas) tonight! Their cardroom is spreading a NO LIMIT GAME at 6 p.m. saturday Jan.22, 2000. It will have a 1-2 blind. $50 minimum buy-in. And a maximum rake of $2. They are currently taking phone reservations at 702-454-8092 or 702-456-7777. For those at Harrah's or know someone who is at Harrah's, there is a free shuttle that runs from Harrah's to Sam's Town. It runs every hour. Call for details.
I love no limit. I'll definitely be there tonight. See ya...
I play no limit with my girlfriends back home in Los Angeles. Deal me in...and my friends too.
Gee I wonder where Sam's Town got the idea of spreading a $1 and $2 blind no limit hold'em. BTW anyone that wants to play no limit the Stratosphere spreads no limit hold'em on Sundays. The first live games gets started at 6:30 with a second game around ten.
Best of Luck,
Randy Refeld
Are Debra and Louisa Kelly gonna be there?
Well if you look at the posting times I would lay odds that Kelly Debra and Dude are all the same person; probably someone with a vested interest in people going to Sam's Town.
Gonna be away for a long time I wish everyone success and hope we meet up some day.
I may be lurking so don't say bad things about me - I am sicillian you know.
Bye for now.
I'll miss you, Mike. I have your e-mail so if I'm ever going to be in AZ I'll be sure to let you know.
Busted straights and flushes to your opps,
SammyB
If you are in N. Cal. drop me an email. We can have lunch and argue all at once instead of in a million little posts.
Good Luck !
D.
Post deleted at author's request.
Rounder,
Will you be in Vienna in March.
Vince
Vince,
I'll be in Birmingham England for the UK HE Championships. the 1st week in April.
Hope you can make it.
how long
post reports on your progress
you can always find a comp. and access
give us a report on the u.k.
good luck you will need it.
Take care, man... Wherever you are going, draw to a gutshot at least once for Izmet's sake...
See ya!
---
m
Ray Zee you so fine
you weally, weally blow my mine
Ray Zee...Ray Zee
I see Ray Zee in big side game counting his money. Dan Carrington sit downe next to him. They wisper back and froth. Ray Zee laugh out loud and then wisper sum more. Then he give Dan Carrington big wadd of money. Dan Carrington laugh out loud. Dan Carrington give money back and then they both laugh out loud. Must been some good joke. Ha Ha. Ray Zee then cash out and they both walkk very fast to exit. I think they going to nudie bar. That why they need so much cash.
In the previous hand that John posted:
1) John knew his opponent did not have a J.
2) Opponent new that John knew that he did not have a Jack. Since opponent knew that John knew this, opponent would find representing trips a reasonable play.
3) John knew that opponent knew that he, John, knew that opponent did not have a Jack. Since John knew all of this he knew it was reasonable for his opponent to represent having trips but not having them.
I honestly believe that at some level John was thinking this way. Whether it is right to check and call or bet and call a raise is open to debate for sure. In light of this is at all possible that John actually did induce a bluff raise?
Sorry about that I posted this on the Texas Hold'em Forum so Chuck can delete this thread if he wants to.
I want to purchase the Discovery tape of the 1999 wsop show. (I am gonna use the Binions tape as blank it sux) Can eigther of you tell me how to get a copy of it.
check discovery web site. it is available for 19.99. What, don't you have a vcr connected to your tv?
Rounder- Go to Discovery web page. Show was aired twice on January 19th.
Sorry, I didn't tape it or I would offer to send you a copy. If for some reason, you can't get it through Discovery, let me know and I can try to track down a copy for you from someone on rgp.
Good Luck. Sorry I missed you at Carnivale.
Diane from Green Bay
I surfed the Discovery web page and it wasn't there.
Is it going to be re-broadcast.
Saw Sklansky last night at Bellagio, appearantly giving a guided tour of the poker room to an attractive young lady. I assume she was his niece.
Kinda warms your heart to know the old guy still cherishes family values.
Brett
Brett,
You really should have introduced yourself to David's father. I'm sure it wasn't David. I'll lay 2 to 1 that guided tours are not a thing David does even for family unless of course he gets 200/hour.
Vince.
I have a brief 4-day junket set for this week to Laughlin and Vegas. It's a working vacation, so I will actually be making some sales calls, but I should have time to stumble into a couple of casinos in LV on Wednesday and/or Thursday the 26th and 27th. If there are any 2+2 posters who will be in town, please respond to this post, and maybe we can hook up for a soda while I'm in town. Make it quick, though; I have to leave for the airport about 1:00 p.m. Monday afternoon.
I am always happy to meet up with two plus two posters; if you want to look me up when you get here I am listed in the phone book
Randy Refeld
I have a business trip to Columbus Ohio scheduled and decided to tie in a weekend trip down to see my Horseshoe friends in Tunica.
If anyone is going to be down there at that time, let me know and we can get together for a meal/chat.
I will also be back down there with several friends 2/24-2/27 to play some satellites for their big March/April tournament and to hook up with the SARGE group from rgp.
Diane from Green Bay
Greetings: Does anyone have any suggestions on where to stay for my Vegas trip on Memorial day weekend? We are looking for reasonably priced (say, under $100/night) and centrally located (i.e. walking distance to good places to play, and take in sights, etc).
Any and all suggestions appreciated.
Thanks, Tim
Tim,
If you plan on playing poker try Bellagios. Call thier poker room and ask for availability and pricing. I believe the poker rate is between 99-129. You can't beat the hotel. The Flamingo Hilton accross the street might be a better choice dollar wise. Call for a poker rate.
Vince.
If you don't mind spending a little more, The Venetian has very nice rooms. They are all 700 sq ft suites. It is the largest hotel in the world, has lots of great restaraunts, and a brand new poker room.
For a little less, The Rio offers mini-suites that are nice, but you'll be off the strip.
Brett
Brett
v
I suggest the Flamingo Hilton. It is center strip so you can walk anywhere. Poker at F.H. is one or two tables of 1-4-8 holdem and one or two tables of 1-5 7CS. Friendly poker room personel and generally a good game. They will give you a rate for 4-6 hours of poker play. On week days it is around 50-60 and weekends probably about 100 per night. I am not sure about Memorial Day Weekend. The Flamingo is a nice hotel with good service and nice rooms, A great pool area and a so-so buffet. You can play poker there, or walk to the Mirage (2 Blocks) Harrahs (1 Block) Bellagio (1 Block). Or catch the tram behind Balleys for a trip to the MGM. That puts you within walking distance of poker at the Luxor and Mandalay bay. If you stay and the Flamingo Hilton...you will get on their mailing list for some really good deals. I get rooms there during the week for freee or for 15 bucks during the off peak through the mailings. I hope this was helpful.
LAMentary
The number I got is 888-404-5869 I just ordered it - 4-6 weeks to deliver. The show will be rebroadcast on May 5th 8 & 11pm (EST) and may 7th 4pm (EST).
Am I the only person who taped it when it aired??
Shooter,
Just out of curiosity what are some of the things they aired on the show. Is it worth going after?
Well, I didn't see the 'official' tape, which everyone said was horrible. The Discovery show seemed pretty good to me. It tried to give a good dose of laymen's fodder as well as real poker skill. Of course, nothing on channels like Discovery or TLC can go too deep for fear of losing the general interest viewer (one of the sad truths of a television oriented society, but I digress). Anyway, the first 15 minutes were the weakest, just showing off the glitz and the glamor of the tournament (so glitzy, in fact, that the million dollar 1st prize is brought to the final table in a CARDBOARD BOX), with various people waxing poetic about being champ. Then they get into the meat, going day by day tracking a few standout people (Huck Seed, Phil Helmuth, Anne Duke, Scotty N.). For the poker player, the best part of the show is the final 15 minutes, when they actually show some of the final table hands.
All in all, I would recommend it, but don't go on a cross-country trek to seek it out. I'd say it'd be worth the 19 bucks the Discovery Channel wants for it, if it was longer than 44 minutes total time (one hour minus commercial breaks).
hope this helps, shooter
When I called 888-404-5869 I got something else (the message center for Beaver Creek ski resort).
1-301-587-1305
it's 888-404-5969
Had the flu when I posted and am amazed I got 9 of the 10 #'s right.
Sorry,
I have played hold-em for about two hundred hours. I have read every book in print and am doing well. However, I would like to move to a new level of play and need help finding an experienced poker instructor. I can travel anywhere at about anytime. Any replies would be helpful.
thanks
tele
pay David whatever he charges and it will pay off in extra earnings far more than you imagine.
see Bob Ciaffone in michigan.
try John Feeney in san diego and see if he will go for it.
above all dont pay for lessons from someone who cant beat the games you are going to play in.
budget a few thousand dollars. you get what you pay for.
12 steps: RandyE co-author
(1) Admit you have an addiction to posting.
(2) Sell your computer(and not to your wife or kids).
(3) GET A JOB!
(4) Stop wearing wo/men's clothing [right group]
(5) Intense Drug Therapy (sleeping pills diphenhydramine).
(6) Throw out chips from casino's found in pockets at home
(7) Take down picture of "DOGS PLAYING CARDS"
(8) Change your surname Ex:Raise, AK, Hearts, AA, etc.
(9) Stop denying that you have a problem.
(10) Thirty Days is not 3T's.
(11) Phrases. Ex: Your aces honey!!! King me Queen!!
(12) Magnets on refrigerator of all the Casino's you've been too throw out.
OPA-Maybe the answer you've been looking for and were afraid to ask about. You don't have to be anymore. OPA stands behind their model whether you prefer male or female just ask and the model will perform your wishes. Plz sign below if interested.
1) Paul Feeney
PBWY
So I'm playing 8/16 at the Bellagio on Sunday and a 15/30 player sits down in my game while he's waiting for a Seat. This guy looks like he just got out of Prison. He dressed in old Sweats and has a "I luv Jesus" beanie on his head. He's unshaven, but at least he doesn't stink!
The other local knows him by name. The Bum plays a little and leaves for the 15/30 game. I ask the Local why the guy dresses like a Bum, and he gets pissed at me! He says that most local poker players are gambling degenerates, and I should feel sorry for them. I just shake my head and say that they could at least dress respectable.
Many tourists won't play when the games are full with Bums like these. My best play is to avoid those games, but it still urks me that a respectible joints like the Bellagio and Mirage lets Bums play in their Poker rooms.
CV
Some casinos have been known to close their poker rooms because of all the bums.
CV,
I agree with that the smell and smoke combination are deadly for me. I can no longer concentrate on my cards due to fumes coming from my left or right. I just leave or go to another table. I'm not much on moving so alot of times I just leave. I drive two hours each way and I've played for only two hours because of these conditions. The last time I played I took a break and I came back and there was a older man smoking one after another he had moved from seat 8 to seat 4 and I was in seat 3 so rather than move or whatever I just left after 1hr and 40 mins of playing. The bums seem to multiplying and dividing because when I first started playing I didn't notice them as much. Maybe get sniff dogs at the door!!! Only kidding.
paul
I never realized that poker was so class consciouss.The guy moving to the 15-30 obviously had a buy-in. Isn't Paul feeney a licensed therapist (or is that john)? Maybe poker, like war, doesn't promote positive mental health.
"Maybe poker, like war, doesn't promote positive mental health."
Soldiers fight for their country and all are soldiers of war. Psych major get a grip to compare these two is nonsense. To be fighting on the lines without a bar of soap or water for weeks isn't like the guy next to you in a poker game who choses not to shower or change into clean clothes. If the guy can afford a 15-30 buy in he can afford to have clean clothes and Right Guard. My positive mental health is put to the test when one of these players sit next to me.
EOC
no offense meant ..just a comment....The Art of War is good reading for poker players....You assume I ws talking about soldiers too..maybe not..maybe..civilians..nevertheless...the point I was making is that not all poker players are all there upstairs...
Hey, we're human too!!
If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you prick us do we not bleed? If you put a bad beat on us do we not whine, "He called my raise with QJ!!!"
"He called my raise with QJ!!!"
Is this Phil Helmuth still complaining about his loss to QJ in the WSOP?
vince.
i suspect that our posting "bum" is taking poetic license with ideas far beyond his league. Perhaps he should actually read more than "selections" of the author.
a.
the crux of the matter was not if the jew bled, but the christian who couldn't pay his debts. that's how that guy's girlfriend got him off and won him half of the jew's stuff. you know it's shakespeare when people are crossdressing.
scott
but after all, we are all held in a single honour, the brave with the weaklings.
a.
yeah, but if he would have just cut off his foot, he'd have been ok. otherwise, several hours or several years of waiting is all the same once you lost the illusion of being immortal.
hey! i figured out why vladimir says that 2 of the evangelists don't mention thieves when in fact only one doesn't. it's a joke on the audience. read the passage. it's damn funny. beckett makes an intentional mistake, no one in the audience knows, then estragon proclaims "people are bloody ignorant apes." damn, beckett is so cool.
scott
Hey fellas, welcome back. Had a nice ride in the snow? Snow sucks!!
Actually Alex, truth be known I happened to get a 97 in Cliff's Notes in high school. And, yes Vince, I do a poor imitation of Poker Phil whining to his girlfriend.
it was a good post, I guess I just ascribed it to scott because it reminded me of some of his favorite stuff.
an interesting thing that I heard about this issue. The judge that released Rubin Carter later reached national publicity when he ruled (later to be overturned) that people had a right to be in public and commercial places "smelly". The case was whether a library could evict a smelly dude.
a.
Yes, I heard about that case. I believe that's where we got the term "Nose Pollution" from. :-)
In my playing time at the Trop and Taj in AC, I've found these types to be VERY poor players for the most part. There's one guy who frequents the Trop, and he makes Red Skelton look like a black tie event. This guy is a chain smoking, non-bathing mess. He wears the same shirt and pants every time I see him (and it's usually got a nice ketchup stain near the top button), the shirt looks like it started its life white, but now it's a strange greyish-brown. He wears a knit winter cap over a head of greasy hair. . .you get the idea. Anyway, every time he sits down, although pretty skeeved, I welcome it. He's a walking bank machine. He plays horrible cards, he's an open book as far as tells, and I've taken quite a bit of his money. When his rack is empty, he goes away for a few minutes to make it look like he's going to the ATM. Truth is, he's just reaching into his sock or something. Then he comes back and loses some more. As long as I don't have to sit next to him, I welcome him at the table. I'm not playing to socialize. . .I'm playing to win money, and his is a good as Donald Trump's (bad example, he's kinda slimy too, but in a different way). In fact it's better, because it's easily taken.
shooter
Hey Shooter, I know the guy. He always says "good hand" when he looses. He is a nice guy, but he ain't staying in my place. He looks worse than he smells. Actually there are worse. How about the foreign dude with the gray sport coat and dirty beard who chain smokes and has enough crumbs in his beard for tomorrow's lunch. There is one guy named Ed who farts and smokes at the table. Look out after he finishes one of those greasy cheese staeks. The bomb is near.
I gotta keep my eyes out for these guys!! I'm not familiar with this Ed guy. I play at the low limit tables, where everyone orders hot dogs rather than anything else on the menu. You know why of course. . .hot dogs are a buck, as opposed to 5 dollars for anything else they offer. Cheap-o bastards (myself included).
How do you eat a cheesesteak and not grease up the cards??
On the other hand, in the UK, you have to dress up to be allowed in - shirts with collars, shiny shoes, "I'm sorry sir, you'll have to wear this jacket which is three sizes too small for you with that shirt", "Next time if you wear those trousers sir I'm afraid you won't be allowed in". It drives me nuts ! I wish I could roll up in a T-shirt, jogging bottoms and trainers and PLAY SOME POKER, it'd be so much more comfortable. Hey, they'd be clean :-)
Oh for a happy medium.
Andy.
Can anybody shed a little light on these Online casinos?
1. Are they Safe to play on?
2. How is the competition?
Any Opinions welcome.
Thanks Walleye
"Any Opinions welcome."
Save your real $$ for the real thing face to face.
Best of it !!
MJ
If you would like to get a myriad of opinions go to deja.com and do a power search on rgp for online poker. You'll read many opinions, but I suggest you try it and see for yourself. At paradise poker, there's a link to your left under advertisers, you can play for fun and get a feel for the interface.
I've never played on-line poker for actual dough and probably never will. It's just too easy for two or more people to be in phone contact and get an unfair advantage over the other player(s) by A) Revealing their cards to each other and B) raising a third player out by cooperating. Even a bad card player or a moron could get an edge over you with this tactic, IMO.
Caveat Emptor.
Never say never!
At the low limits I've been playing, A may be happening, but I've never seen B. Heavy raising is a rarity.
Thought you guys may be interested in this site: http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/ Not really knowing much at all about game theory, I've been exploring the net to learn, so I do not really know if this site has value to you, but I'd be interested to see your thoughts. Thanks, Tim
tomorrow if i dont get snowed in, im taking a trip down california way. maybe ill see a few of you in the cardrooms i hit. no posting for awhile i guess. i put this on the exchange forum to make sure i wont incur the wrath of the wrong forum man.
Good Luck but I'm still going to zing you. Nice touch accusing the "Wrong Forum Man" when we all know it's you.
TOF
Ok Ray, Hope you get lots of quads and take some of that Californi funny money back to civilization.
ps, Hi Paul
Have a good trip, Ray. Maybe you'll spot me somewhere. I'm almost always at Oceans-11 on Thurs for their 40-80 (note that their PL game is spotty at best right now), maybe in L.A. (Commerce or Bike) on a Mon or Fri, otherwise unpredictable right now. Don't bother with a lot of snow gear. It seems to be letting up.
Don't forget to call...
...on the river.
-Abdul
To you literary types, what in the heck was that supposed to represent? And then the cops stolen gun falling out of the sky, landing right in front of him (among all the frogs)?
i haven't seen the movie yet but samuel beckett once said "if i knew who godot was i'd have put him in the play!"
scott
Two answers:
One, I believe the raining frogs part is based on a true event (well, true in the "Ripley's Believe it or Not" sense). There was also a plague of frogs in the bible if you believe that sort of thing.
Two - I think, literarily speaking, the frog rain was the closure to the opening sequence where the guy who jumped off the building was accidentally shot by his own parents and the scuba diver was scooped up by the firefighting plane. I think the director is making the point that ALL poker players know: Despite the long odds of an outlandish event happening, the world is big enough and time is long enough that if something is physically POSSIBLE, it is eventually PROBABLE. (Just yesterday at a fairly new home poker game I was invited to I had 4 aces up against 3 other four-of-a-kinds. With no wild cards. I'm just glad I wasn't dealing that one because I'D suspect me of cheating)
Interesting question and very applicable to this group, IMO.
Sorry goog, but you're wrong on this one:
"Despite the long odds of an outlandish event happening, the world is big enough and time is long enough that if something is physically POSSIBLE, it is eventually PROBABLE."
Time is not long enough. Don't you beleive it sir, don't you beleive it. Whatever you like, but not that.
don't you like the joke on the audience?
scott
i think that goog was on the right track, but went wrong towards the end. The point is not that the sum of improbably events become probable.
Rather it is that examination of a world unlike our own (a world where frog's fall from the skies) and examination of how people react to it elucidates something very pure and close to the human condition.
That's the reason people read Kafka despite that relative lack of tricky trials, hunger artists, and giant insects. Also, partly why people read Marquez.
The point is not that frog's fell. The point was not that gregor was turned into an insect. The point is these situations make us feel something, however vague, about the alienation, authenticity, and human interaction. This feeling is part of what led the existentialist literature break-off movement.
a.
NL Lowball tournament is now being spread at the Bike the first Thursday of every month at noon.
as far as meaningless conversation goes, ( sometimes handy in a poker game), what do you think about the a.m. / p.m. issue?
are noon and midnight able to identified as 12 am and 12 pm??
brad
Noon is 12 PM Midnight is 12 AM
Just move one minute in the future for both of them to see the proof.
And the twenty-first century begins January 1st of NEXT year. Fact, not opinion.
Next question?
And anal-retentive is spelled with a hyphen.
Noon is 12 AM Midnight is 12 PM
Just move one minute in the past for both of them to see the proof.
And the twenty-first century begins January 1st of NEXT year. Fact, not opinion.
Next question?
The Coolest Kids In the World.
They're cool until the very last sentence ...
Andy.
yeah, i don't like fundamentalists either.
scott
james H.,
Good link but I better keep quite since by definition anything I would say is not cool :-) .
Regards,
Rick
P.S. I tried to answer this in more detail last night but I was in a haze and I think I sent off my response to my parents by accident (I had multiple windows open at once). I'll find out soon enough.
writes about personality traits? It's such a copout to devote an entire article to topics such as courage, discipline, patience, or whatever. The only way I could feel anymore gypped after reading one of these gems, is if I'd had to pay for the magazine.
-Ron
not much pateince in this post!
I certainly would never read another one of Badger's columns unless I wanted to improve my game. Perhaps you believe that self-control isn't the *most* necessary quality for a poker player to possess? Forget poker player, I think self-control is right up close to the top of the list for human beings to possess.
Please name me one winning poker player that leads a happy life who doesn't possess good self-control.
I think it is long overdue that we get someone willing to discuss the less tangible aspects of winning poker. Mike Paulle is starting to do it with his poker.com articles also.
Isn't it disappointing that people feel threatened by people shedding light on seldom discussed topics?
"Isn't it dissapointing that people 'feel threatened' by people shedding light"
Here we go, Psych 101 rearing it's ugly head again.
John wrote: "Please name me one winning poker player that leads a happy life who doesn't possess good self control."
Philip Morehead
Big John wrote: "Perhaps you(Ron H)believe that Self-Control isn't the *most* necessary quality for a poker player to possess?" The most important "quality?"
Badger never mentioned anything about a 'quality' in his article. His argument addresses(very well in my opinion)that which he considers to be the most important "Skill" a person can choose to hone. He even uses the word "Skill" in the title of his article.
But now that you mention it, the most important quality a person can possess at the poker table is without question "Passion". Passion(or desire)supersedes any skill that you could ever hope to cultivate, yes--even Self-Control. Why? Simple, because you can't refine "ANY" skill without the "desire" to do so.
Martin D
"Passion?"
Please leave Lady Gambler out of this discussion.
vince.
"Passion?"
Passion is how I live my life, dear Vince. How can you leave me out of this?
"How can you leave me out of this? "
Metaphorically speaking my dear just a metaphor. You know like "Where have you gone Joe Dimagio, a nation turns it's... head to you.. Uhh, Uhh, Uhh"
Vince.
Self-control is a quality that can be developed or increased. All of us have some, it is simply a matter of degree. With most of us, through hard won experience, it reaches a point where it becomes a tool that we use to defeat our opponents rather than a lack that they can exploit to defeat us.
I believe, as you do, that desire is crucial to the success of any task you undertake. Many things motivate desire. I think persistance is also necessary for success in the process of acquiring skills. Most failures, in poker, or in life, are the result of a lack of persistance. People are usually aware of what they need to do in order to succeed. Most of them make attempts to do so, but fail to persevere. Whenever I meet a player who is doggedly determined to succeed in poker, I know that his failure can only be caused by a lack of resolve.
As regards the article by Steve Badger, my main point was that the intangibles of poker are not discussed nearly enough. So much emphasis is placed on adequate bankrolls, starting hand requirements, strategy, seat selection, etc. etc., that people seem to overlook some of the emotional pitfalls that prevent many people from becoming long term winners.
I know that it is absolutely true that I have survived my 38 years of cardroom and casino "Gambling" only because I have better self-control than the vast majority of people I play against. Game selection is another survival skill I am very good at. When it comes to poker skills, mine are probably in the lower 50% of the people who post on this forum. In spite of this, my income from poker over the last five years is probably greater than 90% of the posters. I am studying everyday to bring my poker skills up to a level where I can continue being profitable playing a wider variety of games against a more accomplished group of players. I play in games I can beat, against players I can beat. I will play only if the cost of playing is low enough to overcome and still allow me to show a decent profit.
John I agree!
These non technical aspects are more about winning than anything else, it makes for a more complete player.
Mike
See you Friday evening.
You can't play selectively without patience. You can't play aggressively without courage. You can't shift gears flawlessly without flexibility. You can't manage money prudently without discipline. And you can't handle bad beats, losing streaks and other forms of stress triggers calmly without self-control. The "innergame" determines the level of quality at which you think, behave, respond, react, and act as a poker player - at all levels, both at the poker table and away from it. It's about time that a columnist (with a proven real world track record) wrote columns about the all important intangibles that greatly influence the tangibles.
Roy Cooke's been writing about the "innergame" aspect 'off' and 'on' for years, and IMO they're are the most forgettable. Every time Roy submits one of 'those' articles, I figure he put off writing his column until the last minute and took the easy way out.
I have to admit though, that Badger's article had an interesting twist. Specifically, that we have the opportunity to prepare days, weeks, or months in advance, when pulling off a particular move against someone with whom we play regularly.
Martin D
Does anyone know a man named Ed who plays 30-60 to 75-150 stud at the Taj in AC? We met around Christmas time, and I'd like to get in touch with him, but I lost his information.
Any help on this obscure request appreciated. Thanks, Tim
I am relatively computer illiterate. I am not very experienced in downloading software off the Internet. Downloading ParadisePoker's software isn't a big deal is it? How do I get rid of it if I don't want it on there anymore?
Very easy. Click on link here and follow instructions
vince
To remove it, assuming you're using Windows 98, click on Start; hover your cursor over settings; click on contol panel; double click on Add/Remove Programs; scroll down until you find Paradise Poker; click on Paradise Poker; click on the box that says Add/Remove.
All that said, unless you have a small hard drive, your just as well off leaving it there. Who knows, you might want to try it again. If the icons on your desktop bother you, you can delete them without hurting anything. I have a folder labeled "gudge" where I drag icons that I don't usually use but might occasionally come in handy
If you do decide to down load it, it's going to take a while. Also, be aware that the estimated time you get shown for a download always lies.
By the way, if you're really new with computers, be aware that there is going to be a steep learning curve. Buy and read some of the "for Dummies" guides. Don't be afraid to play with the machine. Learn how to back up your important information so you don't have to be afraid of experimenting. Try to find a friend who knows how to put everything back in case you really screw something up.
Key phrase,Key Phrase>>>Don't be afraid to play with the machine. << vince
heading to Kansas City next month for business, any suggestions for Hi-Lo stud?
No info on stud/8, but Station has the largest poker room in the area by far. Flamingo has a room, but it's pretty small. I don't believe Argosy Riverside or Harrah's have poker rooms.
Hope this helps a little.
Wow, This is going to be sensational. Cool new Forums!! WFG is going to have to deputize himself a posse to keep up with all them varmints now!!
Post deleted at author's request.
Chuck, love the forums, you guys are doing great stuff with the old and the new. Have got a wealth of info and fun from the reads.
Great service for poker players, and it is free.
Have bought books elsewhere because I saved a few bucks especially not having to pay PA state tax elsewhere but now will buy from you as a token way of repaying you for all the fantastic forums.
Best.
he's already got gary. but how will they kepp up?
scott
Yeah I 2nd the new Cyber poker board.
Don't do cyber poker or cyber sex - nothing like being there. :-)
Can I just say that I don't think the Beginners Questions Forum is a very good idea. I haven't got time to keep up with all these forums as it is. In the case of Internet, Stock Market etc. I can just ignore them which is fine. But given that I haven't time to search through them all I will concentrate on the ones most relevant and helpful to me.
What I'm saying is, unless someone with more patience and time available than me decides to help out, the forum will have Beginners posting in it but no-one else answering.
My two cents,
Andy.
I think you're not thinking it through, Andy. I think there are many questions some beginners have that they might otherwise be too timid to ask on the regular forum. Now, they can ask whatever they like and not worry about wasting other posters' time. Plus, I think people like Jim, Dan, David Steele, Rick, Rounder and others will still pitch in and help. It's in their nature. We all want new blood to join the ranks and keep this game growing. This forum in all its departments does just that.
Also when you try to explain something so that a beginner can fully understand you, it often helps you get a firmer grasp on the subject yourself.
Post deleted at author's request.
.
That reminds me of one of my favorite sayings,
You can't help someone up a hill without getting further up the hill yourself.
Post deleted at author's request.
A fine kettle of fish this is!
Rick's student was *DYING* to meet Badger after I told her he was playing in the tournament tonight. Knowing how quickly he sometimes finishes, I had to interrupt my brilliant play at the NL Mexican Stud (I had tripled up in the first 30 minutes) and hurry over to the tournament area before he busted out. It was 45 minutes until the first break, so Steve was still managing to barely stay in it. I introduced them, and that is when the black cloud passed from hovering over his hat and came to rest directly over mine. I went back to my game and suffered a series of devastating losses that necesitated pulling great gobs of cash from my pockets to replentish the disappearing chips. I did slow play the best hand once, thereby allowing another player to make the nut straight against me, but the rest of my losses were brutal bad beats and suck outs.
"Student", playing her first ever Mexican Stud at NL or any limit, managed to book a win. Rick hustled her out of the game rather quickly when it became apparent that she was enjoying the looseness and fast action a lot and might be learning some bad habits that would be hard to unlearn or expensive to continue with.
After a few minutes of "sweating" me, Badger had seen enough carnage and decided to decamp back to his chateau and write his mini-trip report before I got a chance to "scoop" him. It is always fun to get together with people you know from playing or only as internet correspondents.
I take some modest pleasure in the fact that I singlehandedly made one Hispanic gentleman richer by about $1,200 tonight. I hope his newfound wealth brings him as much joy and happiness as I had in wresting it out of the aged and knarled fingers of the 15-30 lowball players at the Normandie this week.
Looking forward to my trip to LA next friday.
If I am still alive - this miserable flu is really getting me down re-occured on Thurs. morning and is lingering.
Unless I am knocked out of the 6:30 tournament early (a real possibility) I hope to meet you all there some time in the weekend. Dinner &/or Drinks on me (I think I can expense them).
John let me know where the action is Fri. so I can ramble on down.
Say is there an Italian HE game in town. :-)
Mike,
Most of the good action will be at the Commerce. I'm pretty sure we can get a small NL Hold'em game going if you are going to be there. It will give some of the pundits a chance to see if their theories about your style of play are correct. Email me as to when you'll be at the Commerce and we'll meet for the seafood buffet. After last night, I'll probably have to cash in my aluminum cans for a buy-in but I'll be there. ;<)
Big John,
Count us in for Friday No Limit. We may have another surprise 2+2 guest but I should double check first.
Rick
Rick,
I will be there Friday nite @ 7:00 p.m. I welcome your surprise guest unless it is Mason Malmuth. If he plays, I'm not sure that my weak heart could take that big a jolt. See you then.
I usually play lower limits, where it's easy to toke; a $1 chip for 3-6; a $2 chip for 6-12 (or chopped if the pot is smal). I had a good run at 9-18 tonight, and tried 20-40 as a lark, and was having a good run there also, but have no idea how much to toke the dealer. $5 seems a lot, especially given that the pots aren't proportionally larger -- there are fewer community pots and bingo players in a 20-40 game, as loose as the 20-40 game I was in was. I suppose I should've paid more attention to what other players were doing, but wanted to get a sense of the wisdom of the board, and test out the 2+2 forum.
You must play in Cali. In Vegas they rake the pot so there is change in the pot to toke the dealer. When I play on California I keep some dollar checks (change from when I pay time etc) to toke the dealer and waitresses. In LA I normally give a dollar after I win a pot; in Vegas I give 50 cents after a small pot and a dollar after a large pot and either $1.50 or $2 after a really large pot. This assumes the dealer is doing a professional job; if the dealer talks in the box I give nothing.
Randy
Almost everyone here tolks $1 at all the limits 6-12 through 20-40.
IMO, one of the best quick readd you can get on a players eperience is if he regularly tips more then that $1. No winning player is going to tip $2 at these limits excect in special circumstances.
D. z
Read Poker, GAming & Life by Sklansky for a good discussion on tipping. If you are playing for reasons other than amusement, you may be over-tipping. If you are just playing for fun, enjoy and tip in a way that you will feel good about what you are sending the dealer home with at night's end. Good luck.
you change the order of putting on your socks & shoes so that you only have to cross your legs twice. So instead of sock-sock/shoe-shoe, you now go sock-shoe/sock-shoe. Of course I try pawning it off as the more logical way, but deep down I know better.
Try slip-ons. . .us old farts love 'em! You only have to put your socks on in a crouched position, the rest requires little work at all, and can be done sitting OR standing. And they look so becoming with Bermuda shorts and dress socks pulled all the way up.
I suggest you completely follow the logic of the slip-ons and totally ditch the socks.
I turned 38 this month, not 68! If anybody ever catches me wearing burmuda shorts and slip-ons, please shoot me on site!
BTW - I have instructed friends that if they ever see me "blind straddle" just shoot me.
I don't usually follow sports, but since the Rams are involved and I'm from L.A., I thought I'd watch.
Thanks
Rams are giving 7 and the over under is. . .I think it was around 45 or 48.
is anyone else experiencing problems with RGP? I was trying to see mike Paulle's COP final report and I am not able to access it.
'
Post deleted at author's request.
Aol's news server is experiencing difficulties. You may see the missing posts tomorrow, or next week. You are NOT alone. It is world wide. Be patient or get a new ISP. I am looking into MSN and Earthlink.
I'm not having any problems with aol, but you might try this:
Click here: Deja.com: Read Discussions
Brett
that didn't work, try this:
http://x26.deja.com/%5BST_rn=if%5D/topics_if.xp?search=topic&group=rec.gambling.poker&GRPP=929814287.308609059&title=Related&query=poker
I Have Spoken!
Lets see, they got a $300 million dollar stadium built for them, sellouts since they moved and probably now for years to come, and the NFL shares revenues so it makes no difference where they play.
In LA they had a baseball stadium complete with an infield for 4 games, no sellouts unless the Niners were playing (with all Niner fans), no TV games around, and only one Super Bowl appearance...so you tell me, why would they move back? For all those loving adoring fans that decided that listening to the games on radio was enough?
Acid Forum Returns
ram
I was in Nevada last week, staying in Laughlin, but made a day trip to LV on Thursday to check out the scene. Did a little shopping at Gambler's Bookstore and got to the Mirage at about 2:00 p.m. Put my name on the 10-20 and 6-12 HE lists, and got into a 6-12 after about 20 minute wait. Not a huge step up in limit for me, but with the exchange rate, it roughly equates to a 10-20 game at home.
I know that a 6-hour session in one game in not necessarily representative of the entire sample, but I found the game to be somewhat weaker than I expected. There were a couple of women in the game who were very good players, but for the most part, the game was about the same calibre that I normally find in 3-6 and 4-8 here in Edmonton. I had a nice session - had pocket AA's 3 times and they all held up, and hit a river open-ended straight on the button in a big multi-way pot, but for the most part, I just kept my nose clean and stayed out of trouble situations. Ended up ahead a little over $600, which more than covered expenses!
I was disappointed to see that the Mirage recently took out 7 poker tables to add a Keno pit! Yikes, what is the world coming to? Talked to a couple of locals, and they said the big action is generally down the street at the Bellagio, and they must have trouble keeping the room full, so I guess who can blame the casino?
Amyway, I cashed out about 8:00 p.m., and was picking up a buffet comp from the desk when Mason walks in! I introduced myself to him, and he recognized my name right off. Had a nice chat with him for 5 minutes or so, and then he was off to get into the 20-40 game. Thanks for taking a few minutes, Mason; it was nice to meet you.
The Laughlin poker scene was about what I expected; basically populated with seniors in low-limit stuff in weak, passive games. I did get into a 4-8 full kill HE game one night at the Hilton that was a good game, and stumbled into a 5-10 Omaha/8 game,also with a full kill, at the Colorado Belle that was bizarre. There must have been $3-4M on the table, raises flying around at what seemed complete random, and there weren't 2 people in the game that had a clue about Omaha. Pot after pot over $200, and I couldn't get arrested. Hardly played a hand, and ended up down about $40; very frustrating because I knew if I hit any sort of cards, I could run over this game for big coin. Sigh.
I jost got back from a vegas trip myself, and I agree with a lot of what you're saying. The games were certainly soft feeling, (I was only playing 1-5, as alas college students have but a measly bank roll) and I was sorely dissapointed with the size of the room at the mirage. The keno pit was downright embarrasing. The play is tighter than L.A. which I expected, but I found that one guy or more at the table is ussually tight aggressive. My sample size was only 10 hours, but from talking to people, these games were typical. I expected to see more people sitting down at a poker table for the first time, just lookng to blow a few bucks, but most were just poker regulars who played for fun and broke about even all their lives. I expected more, but it was still good place to be.
-james H.
Why is that when I come here using lynx under Unix that the messages load headers only in reverse chronological order whereas when I visit using Netscape on NT everything shows up "normally" top to bottom? This started happening about the time the forums started splitting.
Jim you playing tonight.
I will probably be there unless this flu acts up again.
Mike
PS: Did you reset your preferences?
If I get out of here and get a nap soon.
as for the lynx, I can't really have preferences I don't think as it operates in a stateless environment everytime I call the program.
Well Jim, it's because a lynx is a cat. Cat's usually land on their feet when they fall unless they fall on thier backs. In that case they are "upside down." So make sure little pussy lands crack down and everthing will be fine.
vince.
I'll be in the Phoenix area in a few weeks and was wondering where the best place to play middle limit games is. Thanks in advance.
Kim,
Casino Arizona has the best mid limit games. There is Gila river and Fort McDowell also spreading Low and Mid Limit games. I suggest trying the 101 and Indian Bend Casino Arizona site 1st. I think you will like it.
Casino Arizona at Indian Bend and Highway 101 is really the only place in the Phoenix area that has anything other than low limit. On any given night they usually have 10-20 and 20-40 hold'em, 15-30 and 30-60 (or higher) stud, and 40-80 (or higher) mix going. Nowhere else in the area has anything higher than 10-20.
From Linda Johnson: I have just spoken personally with Tom Gitto and asked him what led up to the decision to go non-smoking and about the rumors of lawsuits from employees. There is absolutely no truth to the rumors. Tom's decision was based solely on the general well being of the majority of his customers. Approximately 80% of the players at the Taj are non-smokers and he felt that it was time to go with the majority and try to please them. I applaud Larry Clark, executive vice president of casino operations, for supporting Tom's decision.
I had always wondered what the percentage was, smokers to nonsmokers. I'm sort of surprised to find it only 20% smokers, I guess because it only takes a small number of smokers to make a room seem filled with them. As a non-smoker, I appreciate the move, and when I head down this weekend I intend to take a break from Trop's horrible air and check out the Taj.
Not surprised that the reason was to accomodate the majority of his customers. Of course I asked Tommy the same question and he never responded. I also heard that it was an issue with employees being subjected to side stream smoke and either (1) Taj is being considerate of its employees or (2) they are thinking ahead in case there might be a liability issue sometime in the future. In any case it took balls to do that and I applaud them. Can the high stakes players (you know who I mean) smoke, or must they be non-smokers. Can they use smokeless ashtrays?
My plan for this trip was to take a shot at one $500 tournament at the Carnivale of Poker and participate in several satellites. In addition, I planned on playing in several medium and small limit tournaments.
On Wednesday morning, I woke up at 3:00 a.m., finished packing my luggage, ate breakfast, and off to the airport for my 8:00 a.m. flight. To pass the time away, at the airport and during my flight, I brought with me Ray Zee's High-Low-Split-Poker and Doyle Brunson's Super/System books to read.
After I checked in at Harrah's (by the way, my room rate was $55 per weeknight and $75 for Friday and Saturday which is the Harrah's Gold Card rate), I went over to the Mirage Buffet to meet Diane from Green Bay and whoever else she invited for Lunch.
Wow! Was I impressed. It looks like I was having lunch with the poker big shots. Mike Sexton, Mason Malmuth, Donna Harris, Jan Fisher, Diane from Green Bay, Chuck (I forgot your last name), and several others (sorry guys but I do not remember your names).
We met in front of the Mirage Buffet waiting for Vince Lepore, but he did not show up. Later, I checked out the list of winners for the 7 Card Stud tournament and found a "Vincent" Lepore came in 12th place.
During lunch Mike was talking tournament talk (what else), Mason told us how Ray Zee plays No-Limit Hold'em cash games, and after lunch Donna made Mason dig in his wallet to leave the tip. Don't worry Mason, you'll get that money back in book sales, I just ordered a couple of new 2+2 books from ConJelCo.
For meals I ate at the Mirage buffet, Harrah's buffet, The Black Spot Grill at Treasure Island, Mirage's Café Caribe, and Harrah's 24 hour café. The food was fine at all places except for Harrah's 24 hour café. I ordered a $6.99 Steak and Eggs special. It was served with a tiny thin piece of steak. I miss the way Vegas used to be. Years ago you would get a fairly large cut of steak for a couple of bucks. I noticed that there are no cheap places to eat good food. It looks like Vegas have turned into an expensive tourist trap. By the way, when the buffets had long lines, especially on the weekend, I ate at Mirage's Café Caribe and Treasure Island's Black Spot Grille. Both places usually did not have a line.
If you're a coffee drinker like me, I noticed the coffee at the restaurants and Casinos was average to terrible, so I was frequently visiting Starbucks at Treasure Island.
For my first poker experience, I went to Harrah's and played a Pot-Limit Hold'em Satellite for $65. All the players decided to contribute $35 for a last longer bet. When five of us were left, we split it up with each of us getting $70. Then there were three of us left and I screwed up. I could have won it, but don't forget, I had been up since 3:00 a.m. CT and I was tired. Here's what happened. The chip leader had the button and passed. The blinds were $100 and $200. I had the small blind and called with 8c 5s and the big blind checked. The flop was 5 - 7 - 8 (all different suits). I checked and the big blind bet the pot. My opponent had $250 left and I had $575. I decided to gamble and raised him all-in, and he called. My hand did not improve and he showed me his 4 - 6. I should have checked and folded. What was I thinking? If I would have given the guy credit for a straight, especially since he bet over half his stack, I could have had a chance to win the satellite. Now, I had a quarter left. The next two hands I won and on the third I was gone.
Later that evening, I played $4 - $8 Omaha 8 or Better with ˝ Kill at the Mirage. Chuck, who I had lunch with, was in the game. It was a good game with some loose players. Eventually, I was moved to another table with a bunch of tight players. The game was so tight that once I raised in late position and even the blinds folded, so I decided to cash out with a profit of $53. I went over to the middle limit tables and watched Diane from Green Bay. She had racks of red chips stacked in front of her. It looked like Diane was cleaning their clocks. You should have heard the players whining about their beats.
On Thursday I woke up at 4:00 a.m. For some reason I could not sleep. I decided to go to the Mirage and play $3 - $6 Hold'em. The play was aggressive and shorthanded. By 8:00 a.m. I was down $80. The table filled up with some loose players and I thought the game would get better. Even though there were several weak players in the game, I could not get a hand to hold up. By 12:30 p.m. I was down for a total of $218 and decided to quit. I should have quit much earlier since I was tired and not paying attention to the game. But, you know how it is, you hate to leave the table a loser.
After lunch, I went back to the Mirage poker room and played $4 - $8 Omaha 8 or Better with a ˝ Kill. The game was filled with tight players. I quit after about three hours and cashed out with a $42 profit.
In the evening, I decided to play the $120 No-Limit Hold'em tournament at the Mirage. After I sat down the guy on my left says, "I see you're not wearing your hat, it must have been unlucky for you." I said "Do I know you? Then he said, "You should have never been in that pot, you spoiled my chance to win it." I realized he was one of the players that was knocked out of the Pot-Limit Hold'em satellite yesterday. Furthermore, he had watched me make that stupid play. He was mad because on one hand we were in together I forced him to fold and he probably had the winning hand. Anyway, this guy was still pissed. I decided to diffuse the situation and start some friendly small talk.
It didn't take me long to screw up this tournament, so here's what happened. Four of us saw the flop for a small early position raise. I had the small blind with a pair of queens. The flop was K - Q - 6 (all different suits). I checked it, intending to check-raise the raiser, but to my surprise everyone checked the flop. On the turn came a Jack making a two flush on board. So I moved-in and got called. Then it hit me, he had a straight. Sure enough, he shows me his Ace - Ten. What was I thinking? When the possible flush draw appeared I neglected to notice the straight. I decided to give it another shot and did a re-buy for $100. After that incident, the cards were running bad. I decided to make a stand and steal the blinds. In middle position I moved-in with Kc Jc and was quickly called by the big blind. I already knew what he had. Since, I appeared to be playing tight, I knew I was up against a pair of Aces and I would need a miracle flop to survive. The board didn't help and he showed me his Aces.
After the tournament, I went to Harrah's and played two No-Limit Hold'em satellites. In the first I finished 4th and came in 7th in the second. That was about all I could take. I went to my room and finally got a decent nights sleep.
On Friday morning, I played $4 - $8 Hold'em with a single $2 blind at Harrah's low-limit poker room. After three hours I cashed out with a $106 win.
After lunch, I played a No-Limit Hold'em satellite at Harrah's. I was playing much better today than previously. There were two of us left. The blinds were $200 and $400. I had the big blind with a Ah 9d. My opponent had $1300 and I had $1100. He bet $600 and I moved-in. He called and we decided to turn our cards up before the dealer turned the cards. My opponent had Js 7s. I could almost taste victory until a seven came on the flop and my hand never improved. This was the closest I came to winning a satellite.
Next, I decided to try the Megabucks slot machine. The jackpot was over 32 million. Well, I quickly spent $40 without hitting anything. I was finished gambling for the day, ate dinner, and went to my room.
Early Saturday morning I played a No-Limit Hold'em satellite. This time I came in third place. Here's was happened on the last hand. The blinds were $100 and $200. I had the small blind. The chip leader on the button passed. I called with 8d 10c. The flop was 6h - 7s - 9h. I moved-in with a $500 bet. The big blind called. On the turn came an 8h. I had a feeling I was dead. Sure enough the big blind shows me 4h - 2h.
After playing the satellite, I bought my $500 tournament chip and signed up for the 1:00 p.m. No-Limit Hold'em tournament. For the tournament, I dressed up in my cowboy outfit. I was wearing my black hat, shirt, pants, boots, and a belt with silver studs. While sitting at my assigned table, I glanced around the tables to see who was playing the tournament. Ken Buntjer was at the table next to me and Tom McEvoy was at the table on the other side. A player came over to my table and asked me if my name was Tom. I think he thought I was Tom McEvoy. I do wear glasses and a cowboy hat, but I'm much younger and have only a few gray hairs.
The game got started with a lot of fast action. Some limping, but most were raising, and the raises were $50 when the blinds were only $5 and $15. I thought the raises were too high. Many players were playing hands that I would dump for a raise. During the first level I was not getting the right cards at the right times. When there was plenty of action I would be getting the usual trash hands and when I had a playable hand I'd just win the blinds. A few times I tried limping with big hands, but ended up getting trouble flops and would have to either check it down or fold.
When the second level started - blinds were $10 and $25 - players started busting out in droves. It was poker suicide. Players were moving-in with almost any two suited cards and middle pairs. For me the cards were running bad, I was getting all the usual trash hands. After a few more players busted out, I was re-seated across the felt from Barbara Enright. I took a quick glance around and saw T. J. Cloutier and Phil Hellmuth were still in the game.
At the beginning of the third level - blinds were $25 and $50 - the action slowed down, but now I had only $125 left. Well, I was still getting the trash hands and decided to play a hand. I was in late position with Kh - 4h and called a $50 raise and the blinds folded. I was not playing the hand because it was suited, I was playing it because it was the first hand I had in the past hour that had a King or better. The flop came K - rag - rag and the early position player checked. I threw in my last quarter, my opponent called, and I won the pot. You should have seen the look on my opponents face. He started complaining about his beat. Words could not describe it. I was starting to have some fun.
It was hard to believe, but I was successful at stealing blinds with a small stack. But, I really needed to build my stack, so I changed my strategy and started limping instead of raising all-in. On the next hand I limped in under the gun with As Qc and was called by a middle position player. An 8 - rag - rag fell on board. The blinds checked, I checked, and the middle position player made a bet to put me all-in. I decided to gamble, I had six outs, and called his bet. An Ace came on the river and I won the hand. My opponent said, "I thought you had an eight." I replied, "I had to get lucky sooner or later." Barbara and I laughed. My opponent was pissed and I loved every second of it. Some of these tournament players are real whiners.
The pace was starting to speed up again. Mike Sexton was seated two seats to my right. He played aggressively trying to build his stack. After a few rounds he busted out. Barbara Enright was getting low on chips. She took a stand and busted out. The table I was at was starting to fill up with new players.
The next hand I played I had 8 - 4 unsuited in the big blind. Everyone folded and the small blind called. The guy that had the small blind was the best player I had come up against in the tournament. He was keeping track of time and making notes of his chip counts. I don't remember what the flop was, but he checked it and I checked it back. On the turn a 4 fell. He checked and I checked. On the river another 4 fell and he checked again. I decided that I would try to sell my hand for the minimum bet of $50. He thought for a few seconds and mucked his hand. Even if I didn't have the four, I think it would have been a good bluff against a good player.
By the end of the third round I had built up my stack from $125 to $700. My stack was still below average, but I had a chance to come back. Once the fourth level started - blinds were $50 and $100 - players started busting out again and the pace was furious. Someone came by my table and said there are nine tables left. I had only $200 left and decided to play a hand. A loose player in middle position calls the blind, I raise all-in with Kc Jc, and the big blind makes it $800. I knew I was gone unless I got lucky. Well, I didn't get any help from the board and the big blind shows me his two Queens. It was 5:30 p.m. and I decided to go have dinner.
Later that evening, I went to the Mirage and played $4 - $8 Omaha 8 or Better. The table had quite a few loose players. After six hours of play, I cashed out with a profit of $138.
Sunday morning I played an Omaha 8 or Better satellite. A young pretty woman was sitting next to me dressed in a tight designer dress. I didn't play it very well. The young woman distracted me with small talk. She put her hand on my leg, and that is when I noticed her gold watch surrounded with diamonds. I think she was looking for some action and I don't think it was poker. She was one of the first players to bust out. I lasted a little longer and made it to fifth place. After I left the table I looked around and she was nowhere in sight.
In the evening I played the No-Limit Hold'em tournament at the Stratosphere. It was a $35 no-rebuy event. I started out well and busted two players and became the second largest stack at my table. Eventually, the cards turned bad and I ended up busting out in 12th place (the tournament only paid five places).
On Monday afternoon, I decided to go to the Orleans and play the Omaha 8 or Better $20 buy-in tournament. I thought it would be a good idea since all the pros would be playing the $500 event at Harrah's.
I started out playing loose. After I had lost several hands, I decided to re-buy for $10. I built up my stack to $375 and at the first break purchased a $100 add-on for $10.
When there was twelve of us left, I was dealt Ah As Jh Jc under the gun. The blinds were $200 and $500. I raised it to $1000, a middle position player calls all-in, a late position player calls, and the blinds fold. The flop was J - J - rag (I don't remember the rag because I was too excited about the Jacks) and I bet $500. The late position player called all-in. I ended up scooping the pot and knocked out two players. Incidentally, the Orleans gives you a $5 casino chip for each player you knock out. Now, I'm at the final table with the second largest stack. The blinds at the final table are $500 and $1000 with no-limit rules for raises. After a few rounds the small stacks busted out and now there were five of us left. We all decided to make a deal to split up the prize money equally at $350 per player and give the trophy to the chip leader.
It was now a little after 5:00 p.m. I ate dinner and went to the Mirage and registered for the $60 Limit Hold-em tournament. I didn't have any luck at this one and busted out a half-hour after the break.
My last day in Vegas was Tuesday. I was too tired to play any more poker, so I decided to check out the Paris Casino. Nothing special here, just another fancy casino. I went over to the Flamingo and gave Megabucks a try for $20.
To pass the time away, I decided to watch the 7 Card Stud satellite players at Harrah's. While I was observing, a player named Larry approached me and said he watched me make it to the final table at the Orleans yesterday. He asked me if I could lend him a twenty if he busted out of the satellite. I said I'd cover it. Larry played the satellite well and made a deal so he didn't need the twenty. He introduced me to his friend Pam. They both came from California and were regulars at Hollywood Park.
I went back to my room and packed for my trip home. Before I left I decided to eat a late lunch at Harrah's buffet. I saw Larry and Pam at the buffet and they invited me to sit with them. We talked poker stories and other subjects. By the way, Larry is a financial advisor for a well-known brokerage firm.
I loooked for you but you know how many guys wear black cowboy hats? Anyway I was sitting with Tom McEvoy for the $500 NL HE event on Sat the 15th is that the one you played in? It was a good table I was in a dead seat, QQ cost me a lot of money and lost to K rag when 2 Ks hit the board. Later I busted out with 88 against Tom's Q's - I won my way into the tournament with a satellite win. Wish we could have met.
I was sitting at table 23 seat 2. But, you know there are alot of guys wearing sunglasses. Maybe, I'll catch you when you stop off in Illinois. See ya.
Mah,
The luncheon you refer to was the same day (time) as the 7 stud tournament that I finished in the money. I could not remember Dianne's last name so couldn't call the Mirage to explain. I was at TJ's table in the 500 NL tournament. TJ knocked me out on a stupid play by me. I had T3000. Blinds 150-300 I was small blind. TJ BB. Pass to me I have A,6o. My "limit" player takes over and I make it 900 to go. TJ with a big stack (his stack size should have cautioned me) came over the top with 7,7. In my excitement I threw my remaining chips in and lost when TJ made an unneccessary set. What a dumb play. Anyway sorry we didn't meet. Next time.
Vince
BTW - Liked your post except for the Carnage part.
Vince,
I was looking for someone that looked like Sean Connery. Anyway, at least you got a little payday for the stud event. Maybe, I'll catch both you and Rounder someday. Good Luck.
mah
Mah- Thanks for a great trip report and the "plugs". I love trip reports and yours was awesome. You do a much better job relating details than I can do.
Glad we got to meet and hope our paths cross often.
Diane from Green Bay
Diane,
I'm glad you enjoyed reading it. I wrote it to remind me what not to do. Like pushing it when I'm tired. Anyway, I'm planning on going down to Tunica for an April fools day of No-Limit Hold'em at the Horseshoe.
Mark- I just returned from Tunica Horseshoe and a short weekend trip for poker after a business trip.
Same friendly hospitality, well run room, and great games. They killed me in $20-40, but I did well in $10-20 when I dropped down to nurse my wounds.
Sunday morning we were playing in the remnants of the all night $10-20 when they decided to start a $20-40. However, it would have "broken" the $10-20 since they had a bad list and didn't realize what was going on. Jim Presley and Susan did the right thing and explained to the $20-40 players about the "bad" list and the need for the higher limit players to be patient so they didn't break the other game.
I was really impressed with how smoothly they handled the situation and calmly. It stopped so much complaining. This was always one of my pet peeves at a cardroom and now this is just another example of why I like the Horseshoe so much. Professionally run room and they treat players right.
I will be back down there 2/24-2/27 for "SARGE" and then again for the tournament. You mentioned the 4/1 event, but that is the day I fly back. I may cross paths with you on that morning though before I fly out. I will be there 3/24-4/1.
Regards, Diane
Diane,
Sorry, to hear they killed you. Anyway, I'm going to make this a road trip this year. I'm going to call the Horseshoe and Harrah's to see who has the better deal. If it's inexpensive, I'll probably come a few days early. I'll let you know.
BTW I think you should try the No-Limit Tournaments. My next trip report, since I will be very likely to play on April fools day, will be titled "A fool and his money are soon to be parted or the fool finally got lucky."
Good Luck,
mah
When you cash out, do you sometimes(or always)tip the cashier behind the cage? Do you think it's a mistake to tip them?
-Pat
I don't tip them. I toke dealers $1 a hand unless a small pot, wait staff $1 for each delivery and the valet for picking up and delivering my car that is it.
The door man, cage and floors are not in my tipping range.
It can get a bit out of hand.
These Indian casinos in Arizona are making money hand over fist. The tribes are distributing huge amounts of money and building homes for the tribal members and that is fine BUT they are still under fed govt. hand out programs and don't pay their people any money at all.
Come on tribal officials let lose of some of that big cash and pay your people a bit more than min wage or less.
I used to tip them up until a few years ago, and usually when I had an odd number of chips to cash in like; $247, I'd tip $2.00.
Night after night, that adds up to a nice yearly total. And like Rounder said, tipping door men, floor men, and the cage is just too much.
-Martin D
x
Which place has more professional poker players(not include prop)? Which place has better games and more chance to be success as professional?
LA has better games, but the cost of living is higher. I would say that Vegas has more professional players and more novice players. LA seems to have more maniacs.
Randy
Consider Arizona.
I never can figure out why people would choose vegas to play poker professionally or whatnot. Vegas, on average, had by far the worst games out of anywhere I've played (albeit only Arizona and California). The best games in vegas hardly compare games that run every day over at Casino Arizona.
George I agree I also play in Nevada, Cal, Ill and Ind. and apart for Aurora, Casino Arizona is the best poker I have found anywhere.
George, I am sure we would recognize each other look at Dick's pic page and say hi next time you see me.
These guys are pulling your leg. Tight games, unfriendly players, lousy dealers, and rotten food. That's what you'll find in AZ. You'd hate it. Stay in Vegas. Or LA. Anywhere but Arizona.
Brett
WOW you must be playing somewhere other than Casino Arizona food is super gormet quality, dealers are mostly good and the players as friendly as I have ever found. You must be playing as Fort McDOwell or Gila River.
No No No! It's terrible! Everybody stay away! Go to Vegas!
Brett
xx
I usually play stud there...30-60 to 75-150 if they get it going...occasionally 20-40 hold'em or the mix game.
Where's this webpage? I'm sure I know who you are, I play there almost every day normally, although I haven't gone much the past few weeks due buying a house.
Basically, I'm the young looking kid that's playing the biggest stud game that's going at the time. The one they call lucky.
I only play hold'em and most tournaments I can find time for. I play 10-20 most other casinos but I have a hard time finding a better game than the 4-8/6-12 at Casino Arizona.
http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/photos.htm
I'm the guy with Johnny Hale.
I am Mike to everyone around there. Rounder is only my internet handle.
I'm George to everyone around there, and being that I wasn't original enough to come up with an internet handle, I use that here too.
Ya, I've seen you at Casino AZ before, albeit a while ago.
I'm pretty sure you know who I am. I'll be sure to introduce myself if I see you again. Being that I just moved to Ahwatukee about a mile away from gila river I might play more of those tourneys...I think I saw you at the last one I went to a couple weeks ago or so (only I didn't stay long due to the fact that I got knocked out on the first hand).
I was there last night the pot was over 16K not bad for a Wed night reservation game. BTW got the snot beat out of my 4 pair of J's everyone except one was best going in and all 4 got beat. I made it to the last 3 table and lost with AJs to AQo.
Have to be less aggressive with the cheese, I guess!
First hand last time i got a free play in my BB with 9T, flop comes 876, i bet 100 and the SB checkraises me all in, turn 8, river 8, he shows 98. Pretty sweet.
It's awesome if you can catch a few hands in those tourneys right away though, it's not hard to get action on them.
Last I heard they call him "Giggling George", probably because of his reaction when raking in pots.
Brett
Heh. Ya, that would be me. Do you play down here?
What makes the game there so good? Loose players? Large ratio of pros-fish? Number of games available? One need justification for moving to the desert, be it Vegas or AZ. And Rounder, if you've played AC, how would you rate their game?
thanks, shooter
I keep asking this question myself...
Post deleted at author's request.
Go to vegas if you want to play 60-120 or higher...
Though the 60-120 and 80-160 hold'em games in L.A. seem currently to be in a bit of a lull, if it does turn out to be only temporary there should be a reasonable amount of choice at those limits as well. As for stud, there have been one to two full 80-160 games at Commerce the two times I've been there recently. Same for lowball.
Weekends, go to Vegas. Weekdays, go to LA. The two are so close, they're basically the same town.
Badger, are there more pros in LA than Vegas?
What about per capita wise, pretty close than, or would Vegas now be greater?
Post deleted at author's request.
I agree. But notice on the General Theory Forum that Abdul claims there are only about two 'true pros' in LA. I have to believe his head had exploded or something just moments before writing that.
So where is "The Good Life" because I want some! First of all I'll try to define my version of The Good Life. Here's my list of requirements.
1) Good Health- Well this one is sort of easy. Eat the right food, get some exercise, and make sure I wear a condom. Hopefully my genetics don’t doom me to an extra short life from cancer.
2) Financially Independent- Now this is a tough one for me. I wasn’t born wealthy.
3) Emotionally Fulfilled – I believe having meaningful relation ships with my family and friends pretty much wraps this one up. Religion hasn’t been a problem yet.
Now here is the sticking point since I don’t have the number 2 requirement even close to being fulfilled the number 1 and 3 requirements are suffering. I seem to be spending most of my time on the number 2 requirement. I just don’t think putting in 40+ hours a week at work constitutes “The Good Life”. Some people I know put in more hours than this. After adding 8 hours a day for Sleep (which is part of the Number 1 requirement) I only have 3 days a week to try to fit in the rest of Number 1 and all of the Number 3 requirements.
Comments?
Chris Villalobos
Van Gogh thought the good life was painting a "Starry Starry Night"
Vince
Compared to a lot of people, you are living the good life. You have your health, a job, and enough money and time to play poker. Wait until you're Vince's age before you start whining.
Brett
Brett
You spelled winning wrong.
Vince
h
Find a job that is fulfilling. If your job is just a way to get money, then you're losing out on a big chunk of your life.
"Find a job that's fullfilling"
Now where have I heard that before. Easier, easier said than done!
Vince
I think that might be one of my big problems. I've pretty much maxed out the upper end of my current job. I'd need to go back to school to get any farther up the ladder, not that I really want to go farther up it. Seem's like I may need to start climbing a new ladder.
CV
Chris,
My good life criteria is a bit like yours.
Secret to number 2 is to get a bunch of money and invest it in the market in blue chip stocks, buy some rental property with more income than outgo and marry a good woman who won't spend all your money.
The work thing is a fiction I worked 70 hours a week for 25 years gave everything and had practially nothing to show for it even though I advanced and became a corporate director of GTE. Owning your own business is where it is at. Being your own boss is the best thing on earth after the health and family thing.
All that said Winning at poker is a "good thing" winning a poker tournament is the "best thing"
Yep,
Just getting the pile of dough in the first place. I just don't think 16 per hour cuts it (not including benifits), even for Boise.
I seriously need to think about getting a better job at least one with a higher top end.
CV
A lower middle class wage does make it tough to feel satisfied. I've been there and done that. Maybe with your poker winnings you hit middle, middle. There are other factors in life: family, spirituality, community,and artistic expression. If you are currently dissatisifed then I would go back to school. There is no reason to live a life of quiet desperation.
Chris working as a traditional employee won't give you the financial independence you seek nor the satisfaction. First of all as a W-2 employee taxes kill you no matter what. When Uncle Sam always gets roughly 1/3 of any increase you make the monetary increases don't mean all that much and you are still dependent on your employer. IMO Rounder has the right idea.
CV,
2) Financially Independent- Now this is a tough one for me. I wasn’t born wealthy.
Who the heck was??? You have to elevate above money. How you do that is up to you. You can be financially independent making minimum wage or you can be financially broke a millionaire. I have many interests that don't involve money, but involve helping out someone who is down. You have to find your path and if you find a job you like today stick with it because in 5 years you may hate it. Always keep looking and learning no matter what the learning may be, it's still better than sitting in your own stuff and whining about how all I get is 2's and all you get is A's.
ps: Youth is terrible thing to waste!!!
paul
Losing at poker is not part a good life...it's a night mare that gets worse and worse.....
John,
"Losing at poker is not part a good life...it's a night mare that gets worse and worse....."
Who said anything about LOSING, except you.
Paul
compulsive gambling...has hurt me. It hurts many people I know. Even players that win often spend all their time doing so. The families are neglected, and they have a poor social life. They also make snide comments when I self -deprecate, such as yours. Your remarks sound defensive to me. Why respond at all if the poker lifestyle treats you so well?
John,
How did I know you had a problem?? I'm not a mind reader. To admit you have a problem is a major step, you should seek treatment for your illness. I'm sure you've been told this a thousand times, but from the way you sound, I'm only guessing is that you are ready to get help. Go to a GA meeting which you probably have, and seek help.
You don't know me and I don't know you this is the internet not a self help group or any group for that matter. Your negative answer to my positive response was to try and pick you up. All I can say is if you're having a problem, look into the sol'n. I can't help you that is up to you.
Good Luck Paul
My records for all my Poker playing combined is in the Black. Unfortunately, I don't believe I'm yet skilled enough to make a decent living at it. Lets say 50,000+ a year would be decent.
CV
"You can be financially independent making minimum wage or you can be financially broke a millionaire."
I think we need to take into account that if a minimum to average wage worker's car broke down he may be walking to work. If he gets a life threatening illness he won't get the best doctor. If he loses his job he may go bankrupt, or have to receive government aid. I don't believe a Millionaire has these problems.
CV
CV,
It's between the ears, not what's on the hip.
Paul
"No one in his deathbed ever wished he had spent more time at work". "Do what you love, and love what you do." "Make your vacation your vocation - vice versa". And above all, PLAY HAPPY.
Sounds like you are looking for the "Qwan" in life.
It is different for everyone. I hope you find yours.
It's a great feeling
Best of it !!
MJ
This forum is great, I've really learned alot about the game of poker. I have very little casino experience (still waiting for Canterbury in April). I'm doing pretty well playing online. I'm nervous about something mentioned in "Rounders". They said something to the effect of "the cards don't matter" or "I can beat these guys without even looking at my cards".
Is this true in general? I'm confident I can play the right cards the majority of the time, but am worried that others will read me too easily. I'll probably be playing 6-12 or 10-20 Hold'em.
Any response would be apprecited.
I do it once and a while at a weak table UTG.
I will raise. Not look and read the dead zombie like stares and lead out if I get called I look. I can't remember losing when doing this with a predictable table.
I never look at the flop I am looking for reactions TO the flop. Funny thing is I cannot remember more than a hand full of times I saw someone looking at me when the flop came this goes for so called "world class" players in major tournaments.
Try it some time. It is the most important part of the game. I have watched games with friends and predicted hands based on flop reaction.
rounder, that is so true. i am a newer player with a few hundred hours under my belt. because i'm still getting my act together, ifind it hard to watch others closely enough during a hand i'm in. but, when i'm out, it's often comically easy to read reactions to the flop. last week whenever i found myself thinking "he's flopped a monster" i was invariably right.
more and more i'm starting to understand what it means to play the man as well as the cards. thanks for all the great posts.
It is easy to watch the others. If you are in a hand when the flop comes take a moment to watch the others reaction to the flop. If you can't watch all of them pick the "players" that are in the hand. When I am not in the hand I watch and make mental notes on who hit the flop or not.
I wear shades so I can't be seen looking at the players when they are perched over the flop. Don't matter much as they are so engrosed in the flop they can't notice anything else anyway.
Last week I was in the big blind and when I saw the reaction of the 3 players in the hand I bet out and realized I forgot to look at the flop. It was QTT and I had 9T - they all folded.
rounder, thanks again for posting for we fish who are mightily trying to flop our way out of the frying pan.
Hey everybody,
You won't be hearing from me much anymore.
Those of you who have noticed my participation on the forum know that I was scheduled to make my casino debut in Arizona in April. I was very excited. I have been studying poker and reading the forum since September when I discovered that poker is more than just gambling. My understanding of the game has improved ten-fold, and I have been craving a casino poker table ever since.
However, I am pleased to announce that my wife and I are expecting our first child in September. We are very excited and I look forward to being a father.
Yet, this does not bode well for my poker hobby. Really just starting out, my priorities dictate that available income should go to paying off my oppressive law school debt and providing for my new family. My bankroll -- even a low-limit one -- could be better used elsewhere (especially if the Fed keeps raising interest rates).
I will continue to read the literature and read all of your insightful posts. I won't post much -- without experience what do I really have to contribute? Someday, I hope to meet you all at a poker table.
I just wanted to thank everybody here. I especially want to thank Jim Brier, Rounder, Paul Feeney, Big John and Ray Zee (as well as anyone else I am forgetting) for taking the time to respond to my often-remedial questions. I also want to thank David, Mason and Ray for introducing me to a level of poker play that I didn't know existed. I hope that I can use the things you all taught me SOMETIME in the next couple of years. Best of luck to you all,
Jon Ingrisano
Good luck with ths family. I don't know whewre I would be without mine. Probably living in a van down by the river.
Sounds like you have your priorities in the right place.
Jon, Congrats to you and your wife! Good luck with the new addition to your family. It's also heartening to hear, as Rounder said, that your priorities are in the correct place... Take Care, Tim
Can someone give me a brief review of "Improve Your Poker" by Bob Ciaffone. I am mostly curious what games it relates to. I only play HE and am partial to HE only books. Still, if the concepts are good and universal, I will get it. I have read Jones' WLLH, HPFAP and currently reading TOP. I have seen Bob's name around here a few times, and most comments have been good, if I remember correctly. If you can't recommend his book, please feel free to mention alternatives.
Thanks in advance.
KJS
The holdem section is very very good. And the "big bet poker" section is awesome!!! There is a lot of practical and philosophical wisdom in that book. Improve Your Poker is a very down to earth and practical book that is written by a very experienced person who is also very blunt, frank, and realistic. It's my second all-time favorite poker book. My first is Sklansky's TOP. They complement each other.
"I only play HE and am partial to HE only books"
Excellent book. You will not be sorry you bought it.
"Improve Your Poker"
My favorite!
This is a MUST read, even if you only play hold'em. It deals more with "concepts" such as bluffing than general hand or game strategy. It will even make you lugh on occasion.
The chapters on big bet poker and satellite strategy alone are worth the proce alone if you play these games.
z
Thank you, Paul Feeney, for the compliment you paid me on the General Theory forum! It is nice to be appreciated.
Being the Wrong Forum Man is a thankless job. I toil in obscurity and many may misunderstand my intentions. I want the forum to be a better place for us all. The 2+2 founders have given us not one, not two, not seven, but TEN clearly-defined, topic-specific fora for our viewing and posting pleasure. That viewing pleasure declines when we must wade through irrelevant posts. Total world chaos is only around the corner.
While my super powers are limited -- I do not have the power of post transferance -- I do have the power (since childbirth) to nit-pick (politely, yet firmly).
To those who post inappropriately I say this: "There's a new sheriff in town."
Paul Feeney, you're one of the good guys!
WFM
There will be a gathering of the big bet faithful tonight at the Commerce. I expect the game to commence about 7:15. Rounder will be playing after he gets done with the $100,000.00 Guaranteed Limit Hold'em event. With a big tournament at the Commerce tonight, I'd be surprised if there aren't at least two NL ring games going. Hope to see some of you in attendance.
My Dearest Wrong Forum Man,
Some topics are difficult to place. I also think some of the forums need to be re-titled for clarification. Anyway, where would one put the following threads?
1) A serious thread discussing the best way to handle “must move” games from a player and card room perspective.
2) A serious discussion of the state of the card room industry.
3) A general poker question, but not one that is theory based.
4) A discussion of cheating, but particular to a specific game.
Regards,
Rick
He's doing a valuable service, and I'm sure Mason Malmuth doesn't want to have to do it again himself.
Rick,
My calling in life is not to weigh the merits of individual posts. I never comment on the merits of posts -- I leave that to you and others who are far more qualified in that regard. I simply try to point out organizational misposts. I must say that my job is never short of "easy" infractions.
Your examples are more challenging close calls. In the past I have always declined to nitpick close calls. It must be realized that the boundaries of each forum are not concrete, and each exudes various penumbras and emanations that will bring within its scope topics that do not appear at first glance to be appropriate. Often, the tone of the post gives valuable insight as to where it should properly be posted, and the history of the poster himself/herself is a factor. The ultimate test, Rick, is in how the post is tailored to the chosen forum.
I usually decline to address hypotheticals, as there is no actual controversy before me. But, here goes:
1. Other Topics; however, such situations can clearly have theoretical and strategic ramifications. It depends on the post.
2. Other topics; again, though, shifts in trends in the card-room industry can shift the types and composition of games; such shifts often dictate changes in strategy.
3. Other topics; however, general questions that could be adapted to any type of game may be approriate as to that forum. The Theory forum is clearly inappropriate.
4. A cheating discussion particular to a game should be in that game's forum, or in Other Topics.
Rick, remember -- penumbras and emanations. Also, the "punishment" for an improper posting is far from draconian. A polite reminder calling a questionable posting to the poster's attention is nothing to get upset about.
WFM
P.S. Sorry it took me so long to respond. I had been checking my original thread thanking Paul Feeney. And thank you, Rick -- you have always been an appropriate poster.
"far from draconian"
you're the best wrong forum man.
scott
It was a warm and starry night..............
Rick, Student, Scott Horton and I sit down to begin the second installment of the Mason Malmuth Big Bet Invitational when we are joined by two debonair and suave Continental strangers. One is a gentleman from Norway whose name, regrettably escapes me, the other happened to be our own Izmet Fekali!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He is a handsome man of noble vistage and dresses in that casual elegence that bespeaks all things European. Best of all, the man started out incredibly unlucky. In the first two hours of play, each one of us at the table put a bad beat on him. I personally hit an 8 outer on the river on him, Scott Horton made a rivered straight, etc. etc. etc. Scott also managed to hit an all in 2 outer against me on the river when he had moved all in with top and bottom pair and gotten called by my top two. It detracts from the story, but my top two was J's and 6's, while his two pair was J's and 2's. When the 2 came on the river, Scott scooped in the pot and graciously bought a round of drinks for the table.
Rick and the gentleman from Norway each managed to flop sets against me and take me down to the cloth. Rick's set of 6's beat my two pair, and the Norwegian's set of fives made a fullhouse on the river to crush my turned flush. Student made her pocket K's stand up after she got all Rick's money when he foolishly tried to run his pocket Q's through her. She also got a lot of his money when he flopped 2nd nut flush draw and she made him pay at every opportunity to draw to it. As she was stacking her chips, Rick was heard to mumble something about how he was going to bust her if his draw had come in.
After busting out of the $100,000 limit tournament and getting some of his money back with a 3rd place finish in the super satellite, Rounder finally came over and sat down in our game around 12:30. In his honor, Rick and Student decided to stay an extra half hour. We never actually got to see any of the hands that he played since either no one called him or they turned over the winner before he mucked his hand. I'm sure he was playing big cards and wasn't caring whether they were suited or not.
Izmet and I made something of a comeback in the later stages, in fact, I managed to book my first NL win of the Millenium, having gone 0 for 2 in my first two outings. Now, a $79.00 win isn't too earth shattering I know, but when you are stuck $400 in a small game like this one, it isn't a bad result. Rick booked a win also, a combination of tight play and good cards. If it hadn't been for Student, he would have won even more. Scott Horton suffered a major loss. For the first time in 2 sessions he had to rebuy. I'm pretty sure he wound up losing about $80.00.
It was about a five and a half hour session, played for the most part with a full table. At one point we had a board with ten names on it. I doubt whether anyone won or lost more than $500.00 in the game, and most of us played from start to finish. Once, when Rick bought a round of drinks, I offered a toast to our inspiration, Mason Malmuth, which was received with a raising of glasses and smiles from all of us and a collection of very strange looks from the players at the tables near us. The cardroom dropped a total of $405.00 in collections at our table ($5.00 per 1/2 hour) while we were there. Several non-twoplustwo players quit our game to go play in one of the five different 20-40's being spread there. It is still my contention that NL games that are spread with small buy-ins and low blinds are fun in the social sense as well as the strategy sense, and offer no danger to the players that are greater than those of a typical 10-20 game. Rick won a $500 pot from me, I won a $500 pot from Henry, Izmet won a $500 pot from Scott and Student won a $400 pot from Rick. There were no giant pots. I think that our table had as much enjoyment at it as any of the others. I hope the next time we get one of these games going that we can get more of the forum people involved.
Big John,
What a pleasure playing in the same table with you, Izmet Fekali, Scott Horton, Rounder and Rick. Such a tough line up and I survived!! I shall never forget yesterday night and thanks for making it happen.
Actually John at least one of my hands was a couple of rags but a big bet to win $3 really isn't my idea of good pot odds. :-(
I must add it was really nice to meet Izmet, Scott Horton, Chico, and seeing Rick, Big John (I don't know why I enjoy seeing Big John cuz it always costs me $25 every time I do) and the lovely and gracious Student.
I hope to be back LA in a few weeks and will lay off the red meat for a while I think I am getting to aggressive for my own good. Seesch, calling John Bonetti with a 54o and catching a flush is not what I call tight play. HUH!
Why was 6 afraid of 7? Because 7-8-9.
h
If I needed to grind out $150 per day and wasn't willing to go back to doing my regular, pre-retirement, line of work, I guess I'd sit my butt down in a mid-limit lowball game and play ABC for 5 or 6 hours a day. I'm sure that I could do it successfully, but I know that I'd hate the drudgery of doing so. I have, in the past, spent as many as 1500 hours a year doing that very thing. Well, not ABC exactly, but putting in the hours and hitting my overall win targets. It certainly wasn't very much fun since I had to put up with cigarette smoke, ill-tempered old people, and just about every angle play ever devised by man. Now that I've become an old person, (hopefully not ill-tempered) I try to participate in poker games where I can be reasonably certain of having fun and enjoying the time I'm spending. I prefer to make money while doing this, but it certainly isn't the single most important requirement.
When I'm sitting in a game where we are laughing and having a good time, I won't usually make much of an effort to play my very best game. I won't deliberately throw my money away, but I will make some plays where I'm consciously taking a little the worst of it in order to stimulate more action and greater table enjoyment. A happy table is usually a gambling table. When I am successful in stimulating others to gamble up freely, I've accomplished two goals; I've gotten them to play *my* game, and I've created an environment that is conducive to my having fun. Sometimes, when this environment is created, I wind up losing some of my money. Sometimes, I am able to hit a few well-timed hands and walk away with a good win. Through either eventuality, if I had a good, enjoyable playing session, I walk away content.
In the small NL game we played last night, we had three players who weren't playing for enjoyment. Two were professional poker player wannabes and the other was some angry old man who wanted to vent. None of the three were Twoplustwoer's. I busted one out after he'd sat for five hours, ill-humored and morose, fending off all efforts to make him part of our celebration. His sidekick, Charlie, actually eked out about $100 of profit because he won $400 in pots where he had the absolute nuts before committing any of his own money. Once, when the two were sitting side by side and pushing $2.00 per won pot, Henry made a $7.00 bet UTG that was folded to Charlie in the BB who raised it to $22 after Henry had flashed his two black Queens at him. Henry got very upset and wanted to know what Charlie was doing raising after Henry had shown him his hand. (Yes Mason, collusion does exist in public cardrooms) After Henry passed, Charlie showed him his pocket K's and told Henry he wasn't going to "soft play" them because it wouldn't be right. Charlie has a reputation throughout the tournament playing world as one of the least ethical players around. I've never met anyone who remembers Charlie paying a debt or honoring an agreement. He's owed me $20 for three years and doesn't get embarrassed when I dun him for it everytime I see him. He made $20.00 per hour last night. The third guy, who Rounder knew from Arizona, was a tilt-monster and managed to spew off $300 in the hour he was with us, berating dealers over not being allowed to "rabbit hunt" and calling for set-ups. He acted like he just wanted to pick a fight with someone. If it weren't for these three players, who collectively paid all our time collections with their losses, the evening would have been completely enjoyable. If you are primarily someone who plays for social enjoyment, public cardrooms and the desperately marginal "professional poker players" who reside therein, will usually thwart your ambition.
We played with Mo Fathipour, a successful mid limit semi-pro. He is an absolute gentleman, always behaving impeccably and a man who tries to suit his game to the temperment of the table he's at. Mo would be welcome in any game I play in although his playing skills dictate that he would universally be a favorite over me. There were several other players who sat and played, none big winners or losers and none that did anything to destroy the ambiance of the game. It isn't that you have to be a social player or play anything other than your very best game. All that social players want or need is that you not do anything to discourage the games social interaction or bring stress, anger and hostility into the game.
Big John,
I shall always enjoy playing a poker game with you. You make it very special and very social.
Student,
Thank you for bringing your grace and competitive spirit to the game. Like me, you appreciate the competitive challenges that one has to face in a big bet situation. You and I might not always have the best of it when it comes to poker proficiency, but we need defer to nobody when it comes to our capacity for enjoyment. I hope to see you at our next get together at the Commerce. By the way, there was a small NL ring game that started spontaneously today at the Commerce.
/
One thing I absolutely hate is when I sit down in a game, keep my mouth shut, behave perfectly, and am constantly "dunned" by the loudmouth "wanna have fun" types that are constantly trying to bring me into their conversation. "Hey what's the matter with you?" "We're just having fun." "Jesus, what a grouch."
All this comes about when I haven't said ONE word or behaved inappropriately. I am just sitting ther minding my own business and remaining silent. What's wrong with that? Why do people constantly consider this type of behavior anti-social? If you want to talk and joke around fine. I'm not always in the mood to do that. Many times I am but when I'm not I just want to be left alone. Especially when I am not one iota out of line.
Sometimes the ranting and raving of the partying players just bores the hell out of me. I hate wearing headphones but I do sometimes to drown out this type of boring conversation. Some people just want to sit down and play a quiet game of poker. They should be allowed to do so without criticism from the "party animals" that think anyone who doesn't want to join in is just an ass.
If you just knew how boring it is to have to listen to people talk about sports, movies and hands that they've played you might understand where I'm coming from.
The difference is I don't criticize you at the table just because you are talking and having fun. That's your business whether I like it or not and I have to put up with it regardless. Therefore, I should be able to play my game any way I want to play it unmolested.
You are absolutely correct. My post was meant to address another type of player entirely. Quiet players are welcome. Grouching, complaining, whining and hostile players are a different matter.
If you are fortunate enough to get into a good game where the players are paying more attention to the social side of the game than the quality of their play, sit back, pop in a CD and reap the harvest. Hopefully, in doing so, you will crack an occasional smile as you haul in well deserved pots. Good luck.
Just so no one gets the idea that the Arizona tilt monster is a friend of mine - don't - I just happen to know this jsrk because I won a lot of money from him last year and wish I could keep taking his money, it is hard because he is banned from every casino in Arizona he is a real piece of work and abuses avery one in shouting distance. He got to me one night I had AK and with a K on the flop he bet and called my raises all the way to the river and when I showed my AK to beat his QQ he threw his cards at me. I said everyone at the table knew I had the K's except you you stupid M----r F----r - so we are not friends but I like playing with him as long as his seemless never ending stream of money doesn't run out.
Eddie the painter?
No he is an arab known as Mike or Mohamid - about 5'8" 160lbs and black/grey hair from Tuscon I think. Bad tempered all the dealers and players hated this guy. He lost a lot of money when ever he played and played from 3-6 to 20-40 cooldn't beat any game with a 357 and a ski mask.
Another good time, thanks John for putting it together. As you know I make my living playing poker but I still love to play. Spending Friday night prime time dinking around in that no limit game may not be a bright financial move but it sure is fun and that's what it's all about.
Best,
Scott (Now Burek aware)
Big John,
I've been very busy and have not had time to thank you for organizing the game. I've already got a potential 2+2 recruit or two for the next time (hopefully in two weeks). I'll work on more.
Anyway, my friend Greg is over waiting to watch a tape of the Sopranos and we both enjoyed reading your terrific post(s). Hopefully we can get to dinner some time or maybe I'll even talk him into the no-limit game for a change (he normally plays 15/30 and 20/40 holdem). He is no fan of big bet poker but I know he would enjoy the social aspect of the game we have going.
Regards,
Rick
Big John,
There is no playing for enjoyment when you play in a smoking atmosphere. The person you knock out to your left or right that doesn't smoke may be replaced by a smoker. My attitude stinks due to the stink of cigarettes or CIGARS.
paul
Paul I was a smoker for over 20 years and quit in 1983. I can honestly say smoking doesn't bother me much. Next day the smell on my cloths makes me want to puke and my burning eyes, red and irritated. You know I guess smoking does make ne sick. :-)
Rounder,
It gives me a major headache and I cannot concentrate as well on the cards. I might have to go back to 1-5 7cs non-smoking. I've been emailing management to expand the poker room to non-smoking, but to no avail. Kathy Raymond of FW said I could start a non-smoking higher stakes game. I'm going to try that this Saturday morning and see if anyone signs up. If not I don't know but my health is more important than cards, since I'm not in the best of health due to the use and abuse that I gave myself for 25 years, I have to be careful.
Thanks Rounder and Good Luck
Paul
Yeah, you guys are right about the cig. smoke. I am a smoker, but the smokey environment of the card room really starts to take its toll on you after awhile. I have been trying to get up from the table to have a smoke most of time, because if all the second hand smoke bothers me as much as it does, I can only imagine how much the non smokers like it.
I agree with beg John on the social aspect of the game. I am not exactly the life of the party at the poker table, but I don't like anybody bringing down the mood of the table, especially late when the game is short-handed, very profitable, and in danger of breaking. Nothing pisses me off more than when I am in a great game against really weak players, and some jerk decided to berate some player for his poor play..drives me nuts.
On the other hand, I often play with a guy who won't ever shut up, he has a million stories, most of which are very entertaining and interesting, but I don't have time to talk AND pay attention to the game, so it goes both ways, but overall, I prefer to have lots of happy gamblers at my table.
Mike
I like to think of myself as a fairly liberally minded person, and upon throwing out my garbage I like to dispose of my "recyclable" goods in the proper garbage receptacle.
Now, as I'm sure all of you well know, Columbia University has a profoundly hypocritical attitude towards drinks in libraries. Although ostensibly illegal, there is no enforcement for the policy and recent reformists have successfully pushed towards the limited legalization of "spill-proof" water bottles. Anyhow, the upshot of it is that drinking is not condoned, but neither is the law enforced.
I have no problem with this standard until I am confronted with my garbage problem. Because of the current state of the law, there are no can recycling receptacles in the library. As a result, the environment suffers, and we globally minded individuals are forced to either tote our garbage to another building or injure our fragile planet.
I say legalize it completely, elminate hypocrisy, people will always drink from cans. Its part of human nature. Don't be a don't be, be a do be.
alex
huh?
alex is just dabbling with politics. i keep trying to tell him there is no point in helping people, but he won't listen to me.
scott
You modern kids are so darn spoiled!
When I went to an institute of higher learning, we went to the place where the stone tablets were kept and walked in a circle around the information contained thereon. If we got thirsty, we drank from our goatskins like civilized people everywhere. CANS? We didn't need no STEENKIN'CANS!
A friend of mine said that he seen me dressed up in my cowboy outfit on the Discovery Channel on a show about Vegas on January 19th. If anyone knows the title of this show and/or if it can be purchased please send an e-mail to me.
It was the 1999 WSOP and can be purchased by calling 888-404-5969.
a
I got the idea from Darrel "Dazzler" Layton while I was browsing his CARDS mag. Darrel dresses up as the Sheriff. But, you know what happens to Sheriffs?
Anyway, to answer your question. Sometimes, I wear the cowboy outfit. Next, time I may dress as "The Man with No Name" just so I can say, "Do ya feel lucky punk"?
LOL
I recently started experimenting with memory systems, such as those advocated by Harry Lorayne. The idea, without getting too detailed, is to replace in your mind something that’s hard to picture, such as a playing card, with something that’s easy to picture. One of my goals is to be able to better remember the upcards in seven-card stud and its variants. I have not used the system long enough to know if it’s going to work. Do any of you have more extensive experience with mnemonic systems of this type? Do they work for card games?
For those who are interested, the Internet has a lot about memory systems. Here are two addresses to get you started:
http://www.premiumhealth.com/memory/
http://www.demon.co.uk/mindtool/memory.html
I believe this system works best with Gin Rummy. I've always thought Poker and BJ were too fast paced. Though I may not have studied enough.
CV
I don't play much 7-stud primarily because I don't yet have a memory system, but coincidentally I was just designing such a system this week.
Now what needs to be memorized?
You could memorize exactly each card and its location. However, this would be difficult. You could memorize exactly each card without regard to location. However, this would make it time-consuming to answer questions like "How many spades are out?" You could memorize how many of each rank are out and how many of each suit are out. This seems to capture most of the necessary information.
Even so, I have created a scheme to memorize the exact cards, because that's what I need for other games, and then I've got an idea for how to extract the number of each suit relatively quickly.
-Abdul
Been there done that. A memory system has been out since the 20's for memorizing a complete deck of cards. The concept is simple but it takes more practice than card counting ever did. Pick up "The Memory Book" by Harry Lorayne and Jerry Lucas that Bill C. talks about.
I know of a British guy that can memorize a Complete shuffled deck of cards and then name them off in the order he saw them in less than 2 minutes. He uses this technique.
In the past I've written that Skansky's Key Card concept could be made possible if one were well practiced, I just never got that fast.
CV
Bill,
You might be interested in two books: The Art of Memory, by Francine Yates, and The Memory Palace of Matteo Ricci, by Jonathan Spence. They won't tell you how to memorize cards, but they offer fascinating looks at the concept of memory systems as devised by various philosophers and scholars. Thomas Harris also used both works for Hannibal, his sequal to Silence of the Lambs.
John
Planning to travel this summer. Anyone have suggestions on where to play in the following cities: 1) Eugene, Ore 2) San Francisco, Ca and 3) Sacremento, Ca.
Thanks to all
You can play 3-6 to 20-40 at Spirit Mountain (Highway 18 in Grande Rhonde), probably 1-2 hours from Eugene. Also Chinook Winds in Linclon City (on the coast) has 3-6, but only two tables in their poker "room", also about 1-2 hours from Eugene.
There's also one in Canyonville, 7 Feathers - I do not know what they spread there, but it may be a little closer to Eugene. On exit 99 I-5 I believe.
Enjoy, Tim
A very good 4/8 is the Phoenix Cardroom on Auburn Blvd, in Sacramento.Wide range of player types from maniacs to tight agressive,solid. The manager runs a tight ship and the dealers are good. Good luck, send Email mabe we can meet up?
Help! For use on my poker page, I have been looking for the 52/53 graphic images for a deck of cards. Can anyone steer me to a (hopefully public domain) source that would have them?
If I get them, I will make them available for use in posts and publish user instructions.
Thanks, Dick
Dick,
Try www.arttoday.com . I think you can get some cards out of their free images section.
Andy.
If you install Paradise Poker you also get the deck on your C:\ParadisePoker\... directory. With ok names
Ac = Ace of Clubs 5s = 5 of Spades
But they are BitMaps about 4k each card :-(
Or I can Zip the Dir and send it to ya.
Bestof it !!
MJ
Microsoft has a freely distributable version of a DLL which contains the front and back images of all the cards in the deck. This is the DLL that is used in MS card games like Hearts, Solitaire, etc.
Since it's freely distributable, you should be able to use the graphic images any way you want. One way to get them for use on a web page would be to load a game of solitaire and use a screen capture utility to make bitmap images of all the cards.
You can't use the Paradise Poker bitmaps, as they are Paradise Poker's property.
This is what I use for my software. Follow-up question - does anybody know if I can legally send out copies of the 32-bit version of this DLL to users who don't have it ?
Thanks,
Andy.
On the MSDN site there is an article (In 'Hardcore Visual Basic') about a guy who is freely distributing the 32-bit cards.dll, renamed cards32.dll. He asked for and got Microsoft's permission, but I'm not sure that's necessary. You can read the article - it's in the MSDN Library.
.
Thanks, Dan, this sounds like the solution to my question. Pardon my ignorance, could you post or send me the link to the MSDN site and/or library? Thanks.
Dick
Go to msdn.microsoft.com, and click on the MSDN Library link on the menubar at the top. You should get a Javascript tree control at the side. On the tree, under "Books", you'll see a book called "Hardcore Visual Basic". The information is in there, in one of the later chapters.
If you have any Microsoft Development tools, the same information is in your MSDN help.
Sorry, I can't remember the URL exactly.
Microsoft have deleted this book from their On-line Library on the grounds that it is out of print. Me, I would have thought that the book being out of print would be a good reason to _keep_ the on-line information, but who am I to gainsay Microsoft ...
If I find any other useful information I will post for anyone who is interested.
Andy.
I have played in Las Vegas, AC and the Seattle area and of the three Seattle players tend to be the most knowledgable at the low limits (4-8 upto 10-20). While there are certainly a lot of bad players, I would say that a majority of the players have a basic understanding of concepts like position, pot odds, hand selection. While most still don't play well, they certainly are more knowledgable than the LL players I played against in Vegas and AC and from what I've heard from other posters here, they're tougher than SoCal LL players and Arizona players. Any Comments
I have played quite a bit if LL HE poker and can count the number of good players on maybe 2 hands. So your comment "tough LL players" is an oxymoron to me a bit like jumbo shrimp.
toughest meaning, tougher compared to other LL players, not tough. In some areas I'm sure players are tougher when compared to other players in other areas. That's all the post was asking. It was not trying to imply that LL players are tough anywhere.
I'm sorry for the post I forgot that you were the expert on all things poker. Rounder.. what a joke, more like sucker.
Sorry Atwood didn't know you were so thin skinned.
I am by no means an expert on anything I am just another asshole trying to make it to 90 so I can die quietly in my sleep.
You know what, that response made me laugh, sorry about that original reply, I just hope you understand what the post was about, it was in no way implying that the average LL player in Seattle is tough. I just thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss
ROUNDER, A trip around the NWest could be very profitable for you(tournaments) In my opinion tournament level play is better in Ca and Na then the Seattle area. Most rooms do not use tournament players to start thier ring games,the emphysis is on the regular game.
I agree, the tournaments around here are soft, especially the NL Holdem events.
.
Only in Arizona where the LL 4-8/6-12 games are so soft they are hard to pass up. I'll play higher limits when I travel. But I do maintain the LL games have few tough players and I like the softest seat I can find.
ATWOOD,
I play LL HE in Seattle and have been to Vegas a number of times as well. I find the regular Muckleshoot games to contain much better players than in LV. I have played with a number of players that often play successfully at higher limits and in big buy-in tournaments. Of course, there are some fish in every game but I am not surprised to be up against players who are aware of good starting hands, position, and generally strategic play. Frankly, I like it that way. When I read these forums and learn how loose the LA games are (and how expensive) I am very glad to be living in Seattle.
KJS
Where do you usually play? I live in Seattle and play at a couple of the cardrooms. Diamond Lil's mostly Muckleshoot occasionally.
ATWOOD,
I live in Seattle too. I only play at Muckleshoot. Have not been to Diamon L'ils. Send me an email and maybe we can plan to hook up some time.
KJS
I think the formula would be:
More players + (more) tourists + higher available limits = softer low limit games.
Hence, tougher LL games in Seattle than in bigger poker centers.
From Olympia to Bellingham in W Wa, an area roughly the size of the LA basin has at least 50 cardrooms and casinos. "tough player" is very subjective but alot of poker books are sold in the N.West and CP mag is very available. Most rooms have all types of tournaments but ring games are most popular. As far as skill goes it would be very difficult to distinguish between an LA player or a Seattle player,especially at LL. The Northwest is much more then Boeing and Microsoft and John F, I think we most definitely qualify as a large poker center! Comments anyone? Atwood, KJS? A former cardroom owner in Washington
Based on what I've heard it would be very easy to distinguish your typical LA LL player from your typical Seattle LL player
Sorry, didn't mean to belittle the NW as a poker center. I knew there were quite a few cardrooms there, but I see there are even more than I realized. Still, I think the tourists and higher available limits in places like LV and AC are important factors in making for softer LL games in such spots (to the extent that they are softer... I don't know from first hand experience that they are. But I do know that limits like 10-20 tend to be tougher in places where there are no higher limits to absorb some of the better players.) Also, the huge population in LA is a factor, making for so many games that there is more opportunity for game selection.
John/Bro,
LL players are probably the most universal group that I know of. The thing that determines how good they play is the Ante structure more than differences. In LV I didn't do well because there is no Ante. In FW where I'm used to there is a .50 ante. So if your good at no ante LL structure you will beat a .50 ante player I believe most of the time. If your used to a certain ante structure and not used to another ante structure, your not as good as a LL player who is used to all ante structures and IMO is the best LL player.
My answer to this question IMO is "The Best LL Players Are The One's Who Can Run From One Game To Another Making Ante Adjustments, Game Adjustments, and Personnel Adjustments."
Where ever the atmosphere fits the above criteria, which I would make a guess at LV, LA, AC, and any other LL haven that I do not know about is where the best LL players would be.
paul
Do you have any memory technique to remember card in7CS game,any book you recommend?
No. I just remember what I think I need to remember.
I memorize the folded cards and put them in order highest to lowest. I only count suits till they reach 3, then i consider the suit dead.
v
Here are some good tips:
1) play a lot of gin in your spare time 2) Learn one of those "archaic" multi-parameter balckjack counts and use it 3) Keep a 13*4 grid (or other good visualization of a deck) and picture what has been used by "x-ing it out" or something similar.
I have used 1,2 and 3, and I think I do pretty good depite my overall inexperience at stud and casino poker.
Good luck.
I would not recommend #2. Even a multi-parameter blackjack count is not going to improve card memory for poker. It's too much time invested to learn, and the only thing it tells you is how many "high", "middle", and "low" cards are killed. Taking the simplest count, hi-lo, as an example. Let's say the folded up-cards that have been seen so far have been 2,2,3,5,7,T,T,T and the up cards still showing are 5,6,T. So, by hi-lo count, the current count is +2, meaning there are more high cards left in the deck than low cards. Therefore, if I'm holding A-K/Q-J-6, I'd think I've got a decent chance of filling out Broadway. Of course, tens are cased and the counting system has failed me.
And flush draws are a whole other story. . . In short, don't bother learning a BJ count unless you're going to be a BJ player.
There are a couple of new threads here, one started by me, about remembering upcards in seven-card stud. I just thought of another question: In "Poker, Gaming, & Life," David Sklansky states that he used to have a problem remembering the upcards, but that he no longer does. If he wouldn't mind sharing it with us, I'd like to know what technique he uses.
ive come to the conclusion (tenative) that if a 3 flush on 3rd street is great with all live or 1 dead card(full bring in) , and if 2 or 3 are dead then only come in for bring in (and be sure it wont be full bet) and pray for 4th flush on 4th street.
what do you think?
ive found these hands are easy to play and pretty profitable.
brad
This will probably get a better response if you repost it over on the Other Poker Games forum.
Other More Appropriate Forum Man
f
Calling all female Arizona Hold'em players. I need a partner for a tournemtent at Casino Arizona it's a $5000 added event. I am hoping there are some lurkers out there who want to play in this mixed gender team tournament. I know few women and the ones that play reguraly already have team mates.
I'll pay the entry fees.
E-mail me if you want to play.
x
There's a punch line in here somewhere ...
Sure, I'll be your partner, but YOU have to be the one to wear the dress!
Have you tried the "personal connections" classifieds in the Republic?
Somehow it seems wrong that you should have to pay to attract a partner. With your reputation, make her pay the entry fee!
Get on line and look up the one who thought you were "photogenic."
Always trying to be helpful ... Dick
LOL
Please excuse my inexperience, but how does a doubles poker tournament work? Do you play with the same stack? Do they start allowing collusion? Or is it sort of a tag-team thing?
is because he dresses up like a girl, a lot. So he could be your partner.
but I don't think even the first place would be worth having him on your arm.
1/2 hour on 1/2 hour off the same stack.
I got a partner. So I'll report the results Mon night or Tues morning. It is my 1st one, I was gonna play a partner event at the Seniors but had to rush home for an emergency.
Hell I am playing so bad right now I feel sorry for my partner she thinks because she has seen me at a lot of final tables I am a good player - I have news, I have been stinking up the place lately - I can blame the bad run of cards but I have been playing badly for the last 2 weeks. Hope to smap oput of my slump soon it is getting expensive.
Does anyone know where you can play Texas Hold'em in Ontario Canada, specifally in the general Toronto area if possible?
s
Haven't seen a post from cmall caps, and the rest of the poker prods for a while.
Did they get caught hacking into the CIA computers or committing some other computer crimes.
.
i am still reading the forum. and when i think i have something to say that has not been said i'll post. but i have been busy with school etc. i'm still around. don't you worry. i've even been playing regularly. came in 8th out of 55 in a nl he tourney. last hand. blinds are 400-800. i have ATo, raise all in for 4200. big stack in sb calls with JTs. flop is JTx. i am gone. they pay 6 places. i was the 5th biggest stack and i almost mucked and just waited for some people to be blinded out, but 6th is 125 and 2cnd is 1200 and 1st is 2050. so i thought this was a good shot at doubling up. i double up through one of the 2 big stacks in the blinds and i'm 2cnd biggest stack. anyway, nl is so cool.
scott
Where did you play this tourney and what was the buy in? And was it your first?
shooter
I love NL HE I wish it were the only tournament game. Limit has to much luck involved and you need cards to win. I can get to the final table in a NL tournament by winning 3 hands - of course it may take a lot more playing once there.
Cheers,
Here we have my friend Big John "complaining" about being hit by the deck and I am being hit by the bottom half of the deck.
I had my worst week for ages this week 1 3rd in a small tournament and a net $160 loss (1st loss recorded for a full week in several weeks) for the week bring my hourly rate down.
I have been getting some real doggy hands and to top it all off I am suffering from the "LA poker virus" which is a combination of "Asian flu" and delusions of grandure.
I am finding myself playing marginal hands in marginal positions seeing one card to many and over playing my crappy hands - maybe it is a function of the slump I am in or a an active virus I picked up in LA at the Commerce/Crystal Park tournaments.
I think I need a shrink.
Now let me get this straight ...
NOT racking up a steady 5 BB per hour profit ...
Playing marginal hands ...
Seeing one card too many ... dare I use the sacreligious word "chasing" ?? ...
I have an important question:
Who are you, and what have you done with our friend Rounder?
Dick
Seems to me that there has been a rash of postings as of late from people living in the Pacific Northwest. Off the top of my head I can name about 6 or 8 folks from Vancouver, BC to Portland, OR that have contributed here in the last month. It makes me wonder about the feasibility of having a little 2+2 tournament or ring game, maybe something similar to what the LA folks have done recently. I for one know that I would enjoy putting some faces and names together and matching skills with those I respect from these discussions. I don't have any "ins" at local (Seattle area) cardrooms or casinos or else I would approach someone about setting something up.
Does anyone out there have any comments or suggestions on giving this a try? I am off to LV tonight but will check for replies on Monday.
Just curious.
KJS
I'm up for trying to work something out.
count me in
I will be in LA on Mon Tue and Wed. I plan to be splitting time between Commerce and Crystal Park, so if anyone would like to meet for dinner or drinks let me know.
Randy Refeld
Randy,
Make sure you get the anti LA virus shot before leaving for LA LA land.
:-)
I love playing in LA. When I go there I would swear that there are at least 6 people at the table that have never played before (except for the fact that I have played with them in the past). I live in Vegas and it amazes me what a difference driving a few hours makes; I almost don't play in Vegas anymore.
Randy
the weather's nice...
hi, im still on my trip and have made it to l.a. ill be at hp today for a while and will try to get to the commerce also. i did get to play some poker in san fran. area and thought the action was good and easy. i found a 10 20 40 no limit game and managed to win enough to last me for a while or two. the 80 160 game looked bad so i played 40 80 and they were good. i also played some 20 40 and that was great. i was at lucky chances. in bay 101 they only had 15 30 for their big game but i played and found it too good. nobody raises much and you get plenty of free draws. the smaller stakes games i saw were all very beatable. if any can find me say hello.
ray,
look me up on the floor (I work bottom in exile). plus student wants to meet you and she will be there in the afternoon.
gotta run
Rick
Ray -- I may not see you this trip. I'm holed up, busier than Paul Feeney deciphering QWSEDFRGHJKXCVGBHJKPOIUJHGFDXSSS!! Anyway, try to leave a little money in the California poker economy, eh?
Ray:
If you see Action Dan tell him I said hello.
Mason
I've been on a MONSTER heater since reading "Zen and the Art of Poker".
I've had three new employees here recently who all have been unable to operate a stapler.
The Agassi-Sampras fourth set tie-breaker in Australia can perhaps one day be equalled, but never topped, considering the players, circumstances, stakes, and history involved. No unforced errors, Sampras hits two second-serve aces, and Agassi wins it with three straight points following a Sampras running forehand winner that was so perfect it left Pete himself standing stunned; blankfaced and motionless.
Venus & Serena Williams combined will not win half as many Grand Slams as Steffi Graf.
Tiger Woods is above the above and beyond the beyond.
John Bonham is(was :( ) the greatest rock musician of all time.
I MAY (fingers double-helix crossed tourniquet tight) be bringing a "Student II" to this forum soon...:)
Bill did you miss your Lithiam dose today.
Now Now don't forget the meds man they keep you sane.
:-)
Forgot to mention:
Best thing the sad genius ever wrote(paraphrase): Hero has 3K 'roll, wins 17K, spends 10K on wine, women & song, loses 10K, is broke and everyone thinks he's a loser, but we're still talking about a 7K win.
Boy, what a sucker game that 2-10-20 on the end 7S hi-lo game at the Luxor must be; and they even go to 3-15-30 once a month??!!
Did you know that you can post images here? It would make hand descriptions easier to read if you had HPFAP-style pictures of the hole cards and board, rather than just text. For example: Only problem is I don't know where there's a full set of playing card images that we can use. Anyone have one handy?
I got a full deck. I forget where I got it but I could try to zip it up and send it to you.
CV
Cool idea.
Chris,
Please also e-mail me a zipped copy. Thanks a lot.
Dick
vvv
Only if you could make them bigger so they could see them from the next room would be helpful!!!
MisterMagoo!!!!!
Paul - in the HTML source, you can make the image any size you want. When we get this deal going, I will post exactly how.
Dick
If for whatever reason one doesn't want to put up whole images, one can still use HTML to put the suit sumbols next to every rank. (Bet you forgot there are available symbols!) They are surely awkward to type each time, so one could store them somewhere, like in Word, and copy them to the post when necessary.
Here're the codes for the respective suits:
<FONT FACE="Symbol">§</FONT> gives you §
<FONT FACE="Symbol">¨</FONT> gives you ¨
<FONT FACE="Symbol">©</FONT> gives you ©
<FONT FACE="Symbol">ª</FONT> gives you ª
And if you could do the hearts and diamonds in red I think that would be even better.
Andy.
<FONT FACE="Symbol">§</FONT> gives you §
<FONT FACE="Symbol"><FONT COLOR="red">¨</FONT></FONT> gives you ¨
<FONT FACE="Symbol"><FONT COLOR="red">©</FONT></FONT> gives you ©
<FONT FACE="Symbol">ª</FONT> gives you ª
§
<FONT COLOR="red">¨
<FONT COLOR="red">©
ª
A¨ A©
ddd
A§ A¨ A© Aª
Rolling on the floor laughing my @$$ off.
You are something else.
Don't back off now. Make sure you insert it in one of your posts. Those who don't check out this forum should get a kick out of it.
Thought I'd add a little class to the BB.
$5 to the first one that can correctly guess which one in the picture is Italian.
vince.
cool
I got the deck from Chris Villalobos. As soon as I can put up with the P I the A of uploading all 52, I will have them available on my web site for anyone to use in posts or other web pages.
Dick
THANKS DICK
OK, guys, in a burst of enthusiasm I got the deck uploaded this afternoon. Credit to Chris Villalobos, who supplied the deck.
In order to insert the Ace of Spades into a post, type this exactly:
<IMG SRC="http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/as.gif" HSPACE=25 NOSAVE HEIGHT=100 WIDTH=72 ALIGN=ABSCENTER>
You have control of the size by changing the HEIGHT and WIDTH values (keep them in the same proportions). HSPACE is the number of pixels (1/100 inch each) of "buffer" space that the browser will show around the image. ABSCENTER specifies that any text you put on the same line will be centeed on the image.
Here's the result when I type that without "protecting" the special characters:
And here's four aces on the Turn:
Enjoy! Rounder, you now can stop screwing around with halloween pictures and get back to poker.
Dick
Sorry - Here's the correct link to the Whole Deck.
Dick
Dick just posted a POKER posting in tournaments using your deck - looks neat.
Mike
played today some 80 160 seven stud at the commerce club. the game was fairly good. with a 20 dollar ante each hand you are forced to play pots. the tournament is going on and there are quite a few high stakes games going but most were populated by great players. i didnt get to the tournament area so i dont know much about whats happening there. i was hoping to see some 2plus 2 people but no new faces said hello. even big john was absent. yesterday i did find rick but he had to run. come say hello.
i would but i am in ny.
hey jimbo and ted!! go say hi to ray for me.
scott
ray,
if you are still in town this friday and want to do some 2+2 promotion and give us little people a thrill try to make it into the mason malmuth no limit invitational hosted by big john at the commerce. i think many 2+2 types would come and we may be able to up the blinds to $2 and $3 to make you feel more at home. plus after listening to big john's funny stories you will be in a good mood to kill them at 80/160 on up later in the evening.
regards,
rick
ps your accent is so familiar that i can't quite place it. did you grow up back east somewhere or have you always been a mountain man type?
Hey Zee,
What you do win a PC of some suffering LA card player?? You have gone to another new LOW in your life of degeneracy. The only reason I like you.
I'll send you a fistfull of ante's if you need them for that game so you can FORCE yourself to play a few hands. Send the pigeon ASAP I got to fly!!!!
pablo gonzalez
"played today some 80 160 "
Zee,
Bet it really pisses you off that they don't make lower case numbers!
Vince.
<FONT COLOR="red">¨
<FONT COLOR="red">©
Too Easy
Aesop's Fable's
The cards are ready! See the post below: They Are Ready - Come and Use Them.
Or go directly to the Whole Deck on my poker page.
Dick
Those of us who visit this site with a nongraphical browser (lynx in my case) see nothing in these. This would basically end my participation involuntarily with no upside.
JG
I know many of you don't give a @#$*@ about playing poker online, but you do know much more than me about mathematics. I posted some craziness from Paradise Poker on the "Internet Poker" forum--if anyone has a second to comment on the probability involved I would appreciate it. Thanks
KJS
Call me old fashioned but I hope posts using images of playing cards does not become widespread. I already keep notebooks of the best threads and would spend a fortune if I had to print them out in color on my inkjet.
Plus I just tried to cut and paste a post with the pictures into MS Word and all I get is the last playing card and am missing the rest. Can anyone help with this?
Mr. Text
" I already keep notebooks of the best threads "
Hey Mr. Text,
How about e-mailing me a copy of your notebooks. I am the proverbial procrastinator and have meant to keep notes but als true to my character have not. Please.
Vince.
Sheesh and I thought I didn't have a life.
:-)
Rounder baby,
We both have a life. We just spend most of it here. I think it's because of the way Sklansky makes eyes at us. He likes dark furry latin lover types. Sorry David, we're straight!
Vince.
Vinny I meant the text guy collecting hard copies of old posts what is that about.
:-)))))
Rounder and Vince,
I don't have a life. At least as Mr. Text. My alter ego is going quite well.
Mr. Text
Rounder. You could have meant me and you would have been close to correct. I bet he has copies of a lot of your threads. I would take those and a lot more and reread them occaisionally. Some threads here are much better than books.
vince.
Some threads here are much better than books.
You got that right !!
MJ
Is Baccarat Beatable?
Started by some Las Vegas guy last year.
Anybody print a copy of this thread?
Are you serious Abe? Is Bacarrat beatable. That is the thread that got one of my posts deleted. I'll never forget it! And I didn't even say penis in it!
Vince.
Were deleted.
Yeah, for excitement and thrills at the raceway, that one was right up there with "Women and Poker."
Dick
Mr. Text,
You make a good point. Since MY web page address is embedded in the post, if anything ever changes, including copying the post off-line, then nothing shows.
I think there is going to be a solution using the ALT keyword, which specifies Text to use to replace the figure if the figure can't be found. MSWord has the ability to read and write HTML, or you could use your browser (Netscape or Internet Explorer) off-line and print out from there.
More after I experiment some ...
Dick
Here is an improved method which fills in an image with alternate text if the image does not show up. I have tested this with Netscape, Internet Explorer, and MSWord. Jim, let me know how this looks on Lynx, and Mr. Text, try taking this off-line and see what you get.
Everyone will need to do this! We don't want some readers to not be able to read our posts.
These instructions are also on my web page at Deck of Cards
In order to insert the Ace of Spades into a post, type this exactly (except no bold or underline):
<IMG SRC="http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/as.gif" ALT="As" HSPACE=10 VSPACE=20 NOSAVE HEIGHT=100 WIDTH=72 ALIGN=MIDDLE>
To change cards, change BOTH the "as.gif" AND the ALT="As" values (in bold above). The ALT value is necessary for anyone who uses a text-only browser or who takes the text offline and therefore cannot see the card image.
You have control of the size by changing the HEIGHT and WIDTH values (keep them in the same proportions). HSPACE (horizontal) and VSPACE (vertical) are the number of pixels (1/100 inch each) of "buffer" space that the browser will show around the image. MIDDLE specifies that any text you put on the same line will be centered on the image.
Here's a sample beginning of a hand, with images:
Suppose you hold Then the flop comes Now here is what this would look like without the images (I have simply fouled up the image names, so everyone's browswer will show the ALT text).
Suppose you hold Then the flop comes Everyone, let me know what you think.
Dick
Alternatively, a poster can save somewhere the code for the HTML description of suits and retrieve it when necessary. Here's the whole code again:
<FONT FACE="Symbol">§</FONT> gives you §
<FONT FACE="Symbol"><FONT COLOR="red">¨</FONT></FONT> gives you ¨
<FONT FACE="Symbol"><FONT COLOR="red">©</FONT></FONT> gives you ©
<FONT FACE="Symbol">ª</FONT> gives you ª
So, your post, Dick, would look like this:
"Everyone, let me know what you think." Me, I'm a sucker for simplicity....
Cyrus - I posted your symbols, credited to you, on the same web page where I posted my instructions for putting up the images, at Deck of Cards. Since you don't post your e-mail address I couldn't check with you privately. See if you approve.
I certainly intend to use your symbols in the text of posts, and appreciate your contribution. People can use either or both.
Dick
I see the alt's here with lynx.
I don't frequent this board much but I noticed that the software does not provide the option where someone can delete his own post later on, using a previously inserted Password of his choice (in case he has spotted a mistake, etc).
This is easy to install and it could be a useful little tool.
If you make a mistake it is here "forever"
We removed the ability for users to delete their own posts because it tended to result in dangling threads.
If anyone needs to correct a post, or delete their own post, please contact me and I will try to accomodate.
Chuck
Today I went to Commerce Club to see my coach there and try to find Mr. Ray Zee to get his autograph for his book. I got there about 2:30pm. I went to the plaza and saw many tables going (I tried not to be nurvours, because I know if I do, my speaking English can be very bad). I looked around and around (I saw Barry Shulman, John Bonetti, Huck Seed, Tony Dee, Eskimo Clark). From my eyes, I really couldnot tell if Ray Zee was there, because I saw him only on the book covers (one is very young and the other is older). Finally I asked one gentleman there:"Do you see Mr. Ray Zee here?" and he said "No, I saw him last night". Then I asked him "Does he look like the one in the picture?" and he said:"Yes, except he has beard now."
I went on to have a long talk with my coach and I disagreed with one of his points. He said in a tight game in early positions as the 1st one in with A10 offsuit, you should always raise. My own experience tells me that, with this hand, you either win a small pot (mostly the blinds) or lose a big pot if you get any serious action. We tried to find Ray to have a answer, but he did not come when we left at 6:30pm. We hope to get some comment on the play.
regards,
jikun
jikum,
Ray's hairstyle makes him look like he really liked Woodstock yet is old enough to have actually gone.
Raising in early position in any full game with AT offsuit is terrible for the reasons you mention. When you get post flop action, it will usually come from better hands when you flop an ace and flopping a ten as top pair with the best kicker is rare.
Regards,
Rick
Mr. Text is unmasked. Rick, I can tell you from experience, you've got to be more careful than that with your pseudonym(s) :-). As a sidenote, I have not used the nom de plume "Cassandra" since I was sexually harassed on IRC.
Andy.
You got me. No more posting after 3:00 a.m.
Regards,
Rick
Rick who, Mr. Text with an alter ego who's got a life. Is it Rick Nebiolo? Aha!!
it rained too hard and there was traffice backed up for miles at woodstock when i got there so i went fishing instead.
Sklansky and Malmuth will tell you to toss the A,To in early position in a tight game. But what do they know!
Vince.
BTW - I have heard the same thing said about A,A. "Win a small pot or lose a big one." Is that areason not to play them in a tight game?
"Win a small pot or lose a big one." You heard correctly. This is what Brunson says in his book Super /System in the No-Limit section. I saw it happen at a satellite at COP. A nice young lady made a raise the size of the blinds, late position player called. Flop came J-5-4 rainbow. She pushed in her stack and her opponent called. She had AA and he had 54.
in limit holdem, most all games fold ace ten early positions if you like to stay in money. i did the universal studio stuff today so didnt play. will be at hp or most likely commerce on fri. look for long hair and beard.
ray,
Just for laughs play in our little no limit game at the Commerce at 7:00 p.m Friday for a couple hours. Big John is supposed to host it although he might have trouble finding an armoured car to move that $387 bankroll of his between clubs (that is if he still has it - I haven't heard from him in a couple days).
Maybe John Feeney can take a break from writing his book and come up. Anyway, I want to see how you guys would react when "Student" fires a $140 bet into a $3 pot.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
You better quit picking on Student. Last time we played, she got most of her ammunition from you chasing her with draws that never got there. I'll be there tonight, hoping that Mason Malmuth Invitational III is as much fun as I & II were. We might give pot limit a try tonight just in case Ray Zee shows up. I love to watch him take off his shoes and socks when he is trying to count the pot to see how much he can bet.
I have instructed my bankers, V&M Aluminum and Plastic Recyclers, Inc., to make sure my entire stake is available tonight at the Commerce. Look forward to playing with you guys again.
"look for long hair and beard."
Still the invisible man Ray Haaa! Take some facial pills it will all clear up in the WASH!
Make sure you go out for a TRIM while lounging in LA.
Altamont killed Woodstock!
gotto fly tweedy!!
A,T is a weak hand from early position. If I'm not mistaken, it is a group 5 hand. Haven't looked at groupings lately. Hey that's a good idea why not post S&M Hand groupings here. May give Badger a reason to buy 2+2 books. Anyway S&M say that in a typical game you can raise or call with groups 1-4. In a loose game with groups 1-5. So is this fold A,T in most games a Zee rule? Why? No cop out answer please?
Vince.
'
Ray,
It is nice to see and talk to one of the best. Thanks for the autograph which will always give me encouragement when I see it. Also, it proves to me once again that great players are very nice people.
regards,
jikun
BTW, it was a nice pot you won!
I am a reporter with the Asbury Park (N.J.) Press, the state's second-largest newspaper.
I am looking to interview online gamblers from New Jersey for a story about the online gambling industry. I would like to know about your experiences with online gaming, and why you would gamble online instead of, or in addition to, the New Jersey's brick and mortar casinos.
Please respond by email, jwr@app.com, or call 732-922-6000x4317.
James W. Prado Roberts Projects Reporter Asbury Park (N.J.) Press
Email: jwr@app.com Tel: 732-922-6000x4317 Fax: 732-922-0368
Going out to the strip next week, staying at the Venetian. I just heard that they opened a 9 table poker room. Anybody played there, what are they spreading - type of players etc...??
I played there on a tuesday night last month(January).They had two tables going that night,one stud,one hold'em.Both games were low limit(stud 1-5,hold'em 1-4,8,8) My hold'em table was full of fun loving tourists(or as Abdul might say "Fish") I won $80 in two hours,the dealers were good,and the players came to gamble.I wish you luck on your trip! Howard
P.S. On the down side,they may be the only room in town,that does not issue comps to players.
Howard,
You wrote: P.S. On the down side, they may be the only room in town that does not issue comps to players.
Good for them! Using deja.com power search, I pulled up something I wrote a while back on rgp and pasted it below.
"Several years ago at Binion's I played in a 20/40 holdem game which was mediocre at best but the late legendary Johnny Moss was in seat one so I wanted to play it anyway for the experience. It was during the day so there was quite a parade of regulars. Binion's was quite liberal with comps and in my opinion it ruined the game which typically had several players using their comps at the buffet or deli at any given time. In particular, I'll never forget when one regular comes in, puts his chips down, plays about two hands, a new dealer comes in the box, he plays one hand, gets up, gets his comp from the floorman, and disappears to the buffet for just under 90 minutes (he worked the out buttons from the dealer just perfect). When he came back he played a few more hands and picked up his chips. That day I wished I never heard of comps."
I still feel that way and prefer playing at the rooms where they are not too liberal with comps when I am in Las Vegas.
Regards,
Rick
Rick, I agree 100% with your attitude towards comps. I hardly ever ask for them myself. Just mentioned it because a lot of tourists that come here to Vegas are interested in comps. Thanks Howard
Rick,
The only comps I like are room discounts which I get from Harrah's. This just about guarantees that I can get a room when I go to Vegas. But, what I don't like is players going to eat while people are waiting to play. I believe the poker rooms should give the seat to someone that is waiting to get in a game.
Trider, Hope I can help you aliitle with some info on the Venetion. I have a friend that is a dealer there. As stated in previous posts, as of last week the hotel did not comp players or have players room rates. The problem with food comps is that the Venetion does not own the restaurants in the hotel. My friend tells me the hotel rooms are beautiful. They did a special on the Venition on Discovery Channel abou three weeks ago. My friend tells me the games are great with about 80% tourists. He told me they typically spread 1-5 stud and 1-4-8-8 holdem. I was also told that they spread 6-12 holdem on some nites and most weekends. In addition, they sometimes spread 10-20 stud and holdem on weekends. The action in the games sounds like loose/somewhat maniac type games. Get ready for bankroll swings. Even if you don't like it at Venition, you will be accross the street from Mirage and next door to Harrahs. It's an excellent location. Hope I helped. Tell "Smoke" the poker dealer that CT AL said hello. One final note, to the best of my knowledge, there ARE NO PROPS at the Venetion and DEALERS ARE NOT PERMITTED TO PLAY in there poker room. Good Luck!
lots of tourist...lots of action...
last nite at the commerce club in l.a. i got to win in the 80 160 stud game and also got to sign two books. both jikun(thats his real name) and the student had me autograph my book. i suspect they both will be very good players in the future. i wish them luck.
Thanks, Ray, and wish you stay lucky too.
regards,
jikun
Hi Ray,
It was a great pleasure meeting you again. Now, we have three copies of your book and one of them has your signature!
Thanks for the inspiration and I will always do my best in any poker game I play. I still hope to be able to play with you at the same table someday although Rick does not think it's a good investment on my part. But who cares what he thinks :-).
Student
As far as I understand it, Ray does not stick around if the game isn't good. He finds another game that is good, or he leaves. So, if you see Ray in a game, there are likely some very soft spots there as well.
So, if you're going to take a shot at a big game, joining a game that Ray is in may be a good idea. Unless it's a short-handed game, in which case the game may only be good for Ray because he has good control over a player or 2, whereas you will not have that same control (OK, maybe you will, how should I know).
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I agree with you, Greg. Rick is definitely wrong and I still intend to play with Ray Zee at the same table in the future. This does not just applies to Ray, I like everything you post so it applies to you too!!
Well, I am sure I don't have the game selection skills of Ray. However, I seldom stick in a terrible game, so following me can't be too huge of a mistake.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You bet, I will follow you too.
Hey don't follow me I like to win and from what I have heard of you I could be taking a hit in my hourly rate.
:-) Mike
Rounder,
I will follow you too. Oops, was that a siren following you?
I hear that its profitable following Rounder. Make sure you make a last longer bet with him (he he he).
If you look at his performance in the 6 tournaments he participated (he's top finalist in 5 of them and Number 1 in one of them), you bet, I will follow him too, mah.
Post deleted at author's request.
Badger,
Isn't it nice when we are able to catch Rick unaware? I don't think he even knows he is quite the topic here.
Wick is Wong?
Sorry, had to chime in. Once or twice I've even heard him admit it. Ask him about his thirty page, type-written rule book for home games. Ah! Where are the snows of yesteryear?
John
He is definitely wrong this time, John. Hope to meet you soon either here or over there.
I'm happy to report that Donna Harris has instituted a new rule at Mirage about broken games. Instead of drawing for seats, the current button gets first choice, then the small blind, then from the right of the button on around to the right to the big blind, and finally any walkers. If we had more courageous managers like Donna, we would have less stupid poker rules.
This rule was originally suggested by my wife, who goes by "LoneStar" on the net, and I posted her suggestion back in July of 1999, on rec.gambling.poker.
-Abdul
This is an excellent rule change.
Your wife sounds like one smart chick but why on earth does she smoke?
She doesn't smoke.
x
I don't know if it was Big Johns advice or not but I am willing to give him a big thanks for his words of wisdom to me last week.
I was on a 10 day slump of no final tables. Since talking to John I have been 3rd(of 100), 11th(of 110), 1st(of 100), 3rd (of 50) and 5th (of 80) in 6 tournaments.
Now don't be asking me what was the discussion was about cuz I won't tell.
Thanks John dinner on me next time.
Don't be shy Rounder - or John, maybe you'd like to tell us yourself :-). I ask one question which you may answer or not as you wish. Did John's advice lean towards loosening up in any way ?
Andy.
No Andy, It was about mental attitude and emotional control.
Mike,
You are welcome. I wish *I* could remember what it was. I must be getting old and worn out, because I am beginning to get tired of playing poker. Even the baby NL Game at the Commerce couldn't fire my competitive juices up. I think I might be reaching a point where I should consider reducing the number of playing sessions. I usually get a little burnt out once or twice a year, but after I step back for awhile, I can usually find something to rekindle my interest anew. Maybe it's time for me to seriously think about tackling mid-limit Hold'em? I am also starting to believe that poor physical conditioning has a negative effect on your playing ability.
John,
It was the emotion thing we talked about.
A break never hurt anyone. Why not come on down to Phoenix with the Mrs. - our tournaments are really soft - they must be if I am scoring with regularity.
Anyway - I still get excited everytime I get in the car to play.
Cheers,
How do you account for a positive or negative bias on standard deviation? For example, lets say I play 10-20 hold 'em and after 100 hours i'm averaging $40 an hour with a sd of 200. One could say from that information that my real earn rate, within two sd, lies within 0 and 80 dollars an hour. But clearly I can't earn 80 dollars an hour at 10-20 hold 'em so how do I account for the negative bias to the sd?
The same thing applies to sd in the stock market when it comes to options pricing. One can find stocks that are more likely to move up than down, but how does that get reflected into the price of a call or put?
What you are asking is how you handle the situation when the distribution you are studying can not be approximated by the Normal Distribution. There are many ways of handling this but they all require a fair amount of mathematical sophistication. The great advantage of the Normal approximation is that very little mathematical knowledge is needed.
If you have some idea what the distribution should look like, it should be possible to get the answer after a bit of slogging.
Another way to look at is to define a collection of random variables X(t)(m). Where X(t)(m) = a represent the event that a Poker player with hourly rate m will average a over the time t. It is should then be possible to use credibility theory to study the assertion that if you average USD40 per hour over a 100 hours, then the random variable that determins your mean rate over 100 hours is X(100)(40).
If you happen to have the stats from a lot poker players (Say you work for PP), then I suspect you could put empirical Baynes credibility theory to good use here; but its been a long time since I looked at the subject.
Piers
played at commerce 80 160 and the game was fair last nite. they also had an ok pot limit game which seems to be going thru the tournament time. left and went to hp and played some 40 80 and the game was real good. it seems that almost anyone would be a big favorite in the games there. i have been watching the smaller games as well and they do seem very beatable. i would urge any real players to make a trip out to cal. for a spell. good luck.
I'm going to wait for the Commerce's hotel to open up before I make any more trips to California. Crystal Park (the only other LA area room with a hotel on the premises) has gone downhill and I don't want to walk anywhere at night in the LA area--even to a motel across the street.
Played 5-10 holdem at the Taj for 12 h
Played 5-10 holdem at the Taj for 12 hours yesterday. The place was absolutely packed. At one point, there was a 30 person list for 5-10 holdem. Playing in a smoke-free environment was a pleasure.
I know it is a holiday weekend, but the smoke-free policy does not seem to be keeping the players away. Hopefully, the Taj room will be smoke-free forever.
One that explains all the basic do's & don't(s). I play the Gin Rummy variation 'Oklahoma' at the Yahoo site.
Thanks
Oswald Jacoby's"How to win at Gin Rummy",Sam Fry's "Gin Rummy;How to play and win",and George Monkland's"Gin Rummy;the book for money players"should do the trick.Good luck! Howard
..
Any other 2+2 posters/lurkers going to be in Tunica this weekend?
Its the SARGE (Southern Area Rec. Gambling Excursion) and also the start of satellites for next month's Jack Binion World Poker Open, plus the usual wonderfulness of Tunica County, Mississippi.
Why would I want to play with some guy who's worst loss ever was $650 in a 20-40?
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKK
Brett
Might even take another $650 to Tunica for this weekend's side games. Hey! Lets gamble.
Brett,
Hope you can make it to Tunica next month for the Jack Binion World Poker Open----see Diane's post above.
Abe
Diane will be there!
I will be arriving with another lady poker player from WI (Karen) on Thursday around Noon and then staying until Sunday noon. We plan to plan in all 3 SARGE tourneys and perhaps a one table satellite or two while we are there.
Will be nice to meet you and and anyone else from this forum that shows up.
Diane from Green Bay
Just ease up a little on all that raising in the side games.
Won't ever happen!
Remember what the book says......callers are losers. I would much rather be raising.
Diane
I am interested in reading Abdul's PokerWorld February 1996 article on playing shorthanded. I came across a reference to it, but have been unable to find it posted anywhere. Does anybody know where I could find the full article on the web?
Abdul would you consider adding it to your Pos. E.V. Poker Hold'em Page?
Thanks,
Don
I do not know if it would be legal for me to post my Poker World article on my website or anyhere, due to copyright issues. (Anyone know?)
Here are pointers to a couple of my short-handed articles on R.G.P.:
R.G.P. article answering some questions
R.G.P. predecessor of Poker World article
And here is a good article by someone else:
These articles are on www.deja.com, and may require up to 5 minutes each to load.
One thing to note... I either was not communicating clearly in one of those articles or I was wrong. When you have biggish overcards like KJ, you should not be giving up easily versus a steal raise. However, it's true that you also don't want to be put in the situation of having to call on the river with a weak king. So play 'em hard and fast to try to get a weak ace to fold. With a hand with such promise, usually see the turn card before making your decision about whether you're going to fold now or try to take your king high to the showdown.
-Abdul
Hi, Abdul:
Most magazines buy only "first serial rights" which means: post away. And soon please.
all the best
Murray
Who's going to sue you? Poker World no longer exists.
x
z
x
...if she uses her real name. Is that enough to establish a preference at the .05 confidence level?
z
Does anybody really think Annie Duke would be playing at the level she is if she hadn't been sugar-daddied in?
Who sugar-daddied her brother? Yhey both play at the biggest stakes available.
Cynics give me gas.
burritos?
It's possible that Howard Lederer's large bankroll came from sports betting. His name comes up in conjunction with the infamous "Computer Group" sports betting syndicate.
-Abdul
If it's a girl, she's "sugar-daddied". If it's a guy, he gets "staked".
cut me a friggin' break, Gramps.
"cut me a friggin' break, Gramps. "
Ditto!
Vince
Thanks Abdul.....
What has 200 little balls and screws old ladys?
A Bingo Machine ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How do you get a sweet little old lady to yell *UCK! ?
Get an other sweet little old lady to yell BINGO! before her.
He He He,
CV
Of course, we all know what has only 80 balls and screws anyone it can, especially in casino restaurants.
BTW, there is an amusing article in the current issue of Chance magazine about Pan, and its devoted if somewhat odd following, in LA. I'll never understand the appeal of that game...
-J
Just recv'd; promising "UNIVERSITY DIPLOMAS (verifiable)".
Nah.., couldn't be...
Like all good federal employees I had the day off yesterday to ponder the birthdays of our great nation's founders. After spending some play-money on Paradise Poker I rented "Rounders". I first saw this movie in July, and it inspired me to look deeper into poker. I discovered 2+2 and have been working on improving my game ever since.
I understood everything much better the second time -- if not because I was now familiar with the lingo. I enjoyed the movie more, that's for sure. However, besides the entertainment value, I think certain things didn't play out right.
First, tells were overemphasized. Tight/aggressive play based on strict starting requirements was only mentioned once and in passing -- at the bar with the professor. Plus, you never saw Mike dump hands. If he was only playing 10-20% of the hands the audience never would have known.
Second, so he bluffs out Chan once! How does this indicate that he is ready for the bigs?
Third, why didn't he hook up with the brunette when she came over to his apartment to collect!? C'mon! She was all over him!
There is more that is not realistic (IMO), but those are the things jumping out at me. Still, fun to see my favorite hobby on the big screen. Are there any other good poker movies?
Jon (just dropping in).
i super agree with 3.
i think the bit with chan was just a psychological victory. he was already "ready", but now he was sure of himself. what do you expect? it is a movie.
which brings us to not seeing him muck a bunch of hands preflop/on 3rd. maybe the sequal will be all about not tilting and we can watch him fold for 2 hours straight. and towards the end he will have AQo facing an early raise and he will almost call and then he'll fold at the last minute. a riveting climax is an important portion of quality cinema.
scott
1st it was a movie - can you say drama.
Bluffing out Chan is a joke and proves nothing.
The gal is a doll but you don't know this she is a female impersonator - with a little one.
As far as movies go it was good - my favorate character was Gramy - he is just like a lot of guys I grew up with in Chicago.
Vant a cookie?
I hope you noticed that KGB misplayed the final hand. What an idiot.
Anyway, the best part of the movie is when Mike's girlfriend leaves him and he's really sad but then Worm says "Let's play some cards" and they do and then Mike is happy and they don't talk about the stupid girlfriend who doesn't like poker ever again.
The more I see the film, the more I like it as well, but I also find problems. What do you guys think of these observations:
1. If Mike is such a master player, why is it that in the very first scene he violates the #1 rule of Bankroll: Don't take 100% of it to any given table. Very poor move that no intelligent (and well staked) player would make.
2. When he's trying to go on the big rush to bail out Worm, why is he trying to raise $15,000 playing mid-limit ring games like Hi-Low Split?? Why is he playing a home game in a diner?? He should have been playing his strongest game, No Limit all along. And he should have been playing tournaments. He could have gotten some sleep by playing in a weekly Trop, a Taj and a Foxwoods NL tourney, made up the rest in big limit ring games at the Taj (100-200), and not have had to play 48 hours straight.
As for other Poker movies, ever see "The Cincinatti Kid?" If you like sexy love interests, check out Ann-Margaret in this one. And talk about a final hand. . .this one is absured! And as for memorable lines, Rounders has "Women are the rake", Cincy Kid has a few of its own. When the Kid wins a game early in the film, his opponent accuses him of cheating. Steve McQueen looks him in the eyes and says "I don't need marked cards to beat you, pal". A classic.
You gotta admit the "in the poker game of life - women are the rake" is a great line - one of the best.
He was a mechanic that was supposed to throw the game.
I like the movie and rented it a few months ago.
"Kid as long as I'm alive you'll always be number 2"
Just a great flick.
x
Shooter,
I made a remark recently about your using a pseudonym. I always make a similar remark to newbies that like to criticise but not contribute to the forum in anyother way. I apologize to you. You are a contributor. I should have realized that when you took the handle shooter. A refernece to a character in the Greatest Poker Movie of All Time! "The Cincinatti Kid"
Vince.
That's kind of you, Vince. Thanks. I enjoy your posts very much, by the way.
shooter
Pretty soon you'll be inviting "ONE" over for Polar Bear and muskrat!!!
Tursiops Truncatus
God, Feeney, I wish I knew what you were talking about! What a world you must live in!
Vince
It was a great movie until the end... The end ruined the movie for me.
How else could it end. McQueen eigther wins or loses.
Better he should lose for the sequel. Which there never was one. Hey they could do a sequel with Matt Damon playing Cincinatti kid's kid playing at the WSOP against Edward G Robinson's grand son Edward Norton.
Naw, been there done that.
It's not that McQueen lost. It's that thru the whole movie he had 'it'. When he lost the last hand everyone was treating him as if he lost 'it'. But, he just lost a big hand. He lost due to a tough break, not because he'd lost some measure of his ability.
In Anthony Holden's book Big Deal,he gives a variation to the ending that made more sense to me. In that ending Robinson only has a flush. But, intimidated by Robinson's big bet, McQueen folds a winner and Robinson shows his hand.
"In Anthony Holden's book Big Deal,he gives a variation to the ending that made more sense to me"
It was a movie. That hand could have been 2 pair against 3 of a kind but that is not how drama is created and presented. Capturing the audiences attention demanded a Big Hand. Excitement grew and grew. Then the great Edward G., the man, says parphrased "Your good kid, see, but I'm still the Man. You just gotta know when to play em" Then the kid, and we've all been there, looks at the man and utters a sigh of resignation and says "Yeah" (again paraphrased) in his "tell me about it" way and shows his Aces full. Sure the hands were unrealistic to a poker player but it wasn't the point. That scene wasn't about poker it was about the psychology of a "player". I haven't read Holden's book but the ending you describe is of a man that lost his nerve. The Cincinatti Kid didn't lose his nerve he lost his desire to play! That was emphasised in his losing the coin to the boy in the alley after the game. Winning just didn't mean anything to him anymore. There should have been a sequel, like the one (Color of Money) for the pool shark fast Eddie of the Hustler. In the sequel "The Kid" would rediscover his "Love of the Game" and destroy "The Man" Because you see "The Man" is the one that got lucky. And in Poker - skill will eventually destroy the magic of luck.
Vince
wrong thing at the right time"
I don't disagree with what you say... It's more or less what I was trying to say. My complaints are *not* about the actual hand *or* that 'the Kid' lost. My point is 'the Kid's' and the other's reaction doesn't make sense because he played the hand fine. He didn't lose his nerve or play the hand badly, 'the Man' just got lucky. The reaction of those watching the game implies that 'the Man' outplayed 'the Kid'. The scene with the boy in the alley reinforces that 'the Kid' was outplayed and had lost his edge. (IMO, but what do I know I'm not a movie critic).
Given the hand 'the Kid's' and the audience's reaction makes no sense.
"The scene with the boy in the alley reinforces that 'the Kid' was outplayed and had lost his edge"
What "The Kid" lost was love. The love of the game, the chase, the desire to be the best. Earlier in the movie he finds and loses a womans love. Shooter double crosses, disappoints, him. Life and it's demands start working on him psychologically. By the time the big show down with "the Man" rolls around he's beat up emotionally. He's not even enthusiastic about playing anymore. The big hand just puts water on the burning embers and douses the desire. "The Man" wins, yes he was lucky, but that may not be why he won. He wanted to win. he knew the Kid was great and he may have known that only a big hand, a big lucky hand, would let him beat the Kid. He wasn't the man for nothing. He knew poker. He knew people. He knew what it took win. He found a way to win. He had what the Kid Lost, he still wanted to be the best. The Man. Nothing in any other Poker Movie compares with this psychological drama of the mind of someone that plays mor for ego than for money. Rounders was a horrible movie. And Mat Damon's character was a poor example of a poker player. Mouse was probably the closest to a real life character than anyone in the movie. There are plenty of squeaky guys like that roaming around a poker room. Of course none of them are talented enough to even attempt to deal seconds. Most of them are to strung out on booze or dope and haven't got a clue anyway. The AC scene with all these pro's sitting around a table waiting for the fish to sit down was not even close to what happens in a Casino. They made the players appear to be in collusion against tourists. Sure pro's sit in the same game and feed off the same tourists but you'll be hard pressed to find collusion anywhere except where Abdul plays in LA. So he claims.
Vince
Vince.
DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE I MIGHT BE ABLE TO PURCHASE THOSE SMALL POKER FANS I SEE AT THE TABLES, PREFERABLY ONE THAT I MIGHT BE ABLE GET ONLINE. THANKS
Bingo Novelty World - 1-800-732-4646
ad says they are 13.95 + 3.50 S&H.
thanks
They got a website ? I have been looking for these _everywhere_ .
Thanks,
Andy.
i was at the website, but the ones listed there seem to be fans without guards, and although im sure i can keep my little fingers out of the blades after 8 hours playing im sure ill get wacked a few time the flat ones were the fans i was looking for?
Andy I am most probably coming to the UK in April - I hope to play at the Raimbow and if you are going to be there I'll bring you one. Let me know.
Rounder,
I certainly will let you know if I am going to be there - it's a long drive for me though. If you are going to spend any time in the London area let me know and I'll stand you a beer.
Andy.
Andy we will be visiting friends in Berks - Maidenhead and probably staying at the Bell, Gerards Cross.
I'll drive up or take a train to Brimingham.
Are you close. I sure could use a pint of bitters.
Cheers,
Sorry for late response, I don't have as much time to surf all the forums so I missed your post :-). I am moving to Enfield (N.London) soon, let me know some dates (E-mail andy@pokersoft.co.uk) and I'd like to meet up. It would be good to be able to put a face to one name on the forum anyway.
Andy.
Andy,
Life is a bit complicated these days but my wife and I would really like to visit the UK during the Rainbow Tournament but it may be tough - we are definately coming this year to see friends and I'll let you know when we are coming.
Had this installed just to let me know if I am on tilt.
:-))
Hello all- I spoke yesterday with Kenny Lambert, Jr. the poker room manager for the Horseshoe Tunica MS. I had called to confirm some things for SARGE this weekend and then we started chatting about the upcoming tournament.
He said that they have already booked over 700 rooms for the World Poker Open and there is still one month to go before it kicks off. He said so far everything is exceeding his wildest expectations. Their phone has been ringing off the hook and some of the biggest names of poker are expected to be in attendance.
Rooms are sold out for the event at the 'Shoe and the Gold Strike, but they are still working hard to place incoming players at other properties in the Tunica area. So call down there 1-800-303-7463 ext 5760 and Anita will try real hard to accomodate you the best they can.
He also mentioned that he is still in need of dealers to work the tournament. So if you know of anyone who might want to work the tourney, tell them to call down there.
I will be down there for the beginning (3/24-4/2)and the end of the tournament (4/13-4/17) and hope to see some of you there as well. This puts a crimp in my plans for the WSOP, but I think it will be worth it.
Diane from Green Bay
Diane,
It looks like you will be leaving when I get there. I was able to book a room at Harrah's for $39 a night from April 2nd through the 5th. See ya next time and good luck.
mah
Mark- We just don't end up in the same poker place for long do we?
I am heading down to SARGE first thing in the morning for more live action and the 3 SARGE tournaments. I hope to snag a tourney win so I can lock up my TOC entry for 2000.
Hope our paths cross again sometime.
Diane
I'm off for my monthly week in Chicago - I'm planning to play at Aurora as much as my wife will let me.
Hope to see some of you there.
Found this at Yahoo!
Liquid Swords
Wednesday February 23 11:49 AM ET
MGM Grand Offers $3.28 Bln for Mirage
NEW YORK (Reuters) - MGM Grand Inc (NYSE:MGG - news) on Wednesday said it offered to buy Mirage Resorts Inc. (NYSE:MIR - news) for about $3.28 billion in a high stakes bid that could pit two of Las Vegas's biggest casino operators against each other.
MGM Grand, which is controlled by billionaire Kirk Kerkorian through his private investment firm Tracinda Corp, said it would offer $17 a share, either all in cash or a combination of $7 a share in cash and $10 worth of MGM Grand stock.
Mirage, which is run by casino king Steve Wynn, was not immediately available for comment.
The offer, which expires March 8, represents a 56 percent premium over the 10-7/8 Friday closing price of Mirage shares.
Shares of Mirage jumped 3-1/16, or about 28 percent, to 13-15/16 in morning trading. MGM fell 9/16 to 39-13/16.
MGM made its takeover offer public in a letter to Wynn, the chairman and chief executive of Mirage, in a tactic known as a bear hug.
In the letter dated Feb. 23, MGM Chairman J. Terrence Lanni said ``it is our intention that this powerful combination be accomplished on a friendly basis.''
He said neither MGM nor its principal shareholders currently own any shares of Mirage.
Kerkorian last year reportedly acquired up to a 5 percent stake in Mirage, fueling takeover speculation at the time, but then subsequently sold those shares.
Although Mirage has not yet publicly responded to MGM's offer, Prudential analyst Joseph Coccimiglio said he believes Mirage will reject it.
``Mirage is unlikely to accept it,'' Coccimiglio said. ``I don't think Steve Wynn wants to give up control.''
However, Coccimiglio said he believes MGM's offer is fair, noting that he had a 12-month price target of $19 a share for Mirage.
In addition, he said he believes the transaction would boost MGM's earnings and would be in the best interest of Mirage shareholders.
Bear Stearns analyst Jason Ader also said he believed MGM's offer was fair, and Mirage's board of directors should give the bid serious consideration.
``Given the problems they've had in Mississippi, and given the competitive dynamics in Las Vegas, it's hard to see how Mirage's stock would have achieved a $17 price on earnings and fundamentals alone for the next several years,'' Ader said.
``So I think the board of directors really needs to consider whether or not this cash offer makes sense for their shareholders,'' he said.
In the letter, MGM's Lanni said the board of the combined company would consist of all board members at each of the Las Vegas-based casino operators.
The deal would provide ``revenue enhancement and cost reduction opportunities,'' and create ``the undisputed leader in our industry by any measure,'' MGM said.
Mirage opened the $1.6 billion Bellagio casino hotel in 1998 and Beau Rivage in Mississippi in 1999, and it is building a resort in Atlantic City, N.J.
Its other Las Vegas properties include two Golden Nuggets and Mirage and Treasure Island.
The MGM Grand, located on the Las Vegas Strip, is known not only for its hotel and casino but entertainment such as boxing matches, including the 1998 Mike Tyson-Evander Holyfield heavyweight title bout, and Barbra Streisand's Millennium Eve performance for a reported $10 million.
MGM Grand also owns the New York-New York Hotel and Casino and runs a hotel-casino in Australia, another in Detroit and manages three casinos in South Africa. MGM Grand also is developing a locate in Atlantic City.
Let's hope for the sake of Poker's future in Vegas that this does'nt happen. MGM would have nickel slots in there very fast.
This is my feeling too. I don't know very much about hostile takeovers in Nevada but supposedly they are hard to do. I have no idea about whether or not this will have to go to the stock holders for a vote. Mirage Resorts stock has been in the toilet which makes it susceptible to a takeover.
Delaware law probably governs, and there are ways to "squeeze-out" dissenting stockholders and do the deal anyway.
Wynn is comitted to AC. He likes the area. He is a New Yorker and went to Wharton. He ran the Golden Nuggett in AC and would like to come back as the #1 casino dude, and he will.
The only thing that made him leave was the stiff Casino Comission Rules.
There is enough business to support lots of casinos. the European market is only 5 hrs away from AC. AC's airport is the biggest on the east coast.
Wynn will be here, himself. You can bet on it.
Local LV news reported today that Wynn may form alliance with Harrahs to ward off MGM.This would keep him in more prominant role than if MGM wins.One industry insider was quoted as saying he has never heard of Kerkorian losing one of these battles.I agree with Ratso about AC and the sparks it would provide with Trump would be good.As a LV resident,don't like the way this could play out here.
Two entirely different players in AC vs. LV.
AC is like a LV and Newark combined.
-Abdul
Received my copy of the Discovery 1999 WSOP show and I have done a 180 on my praise of it.
Unlike the Binions tapes - until 1997 - no 1996 and 1998 spent a lot of time on movie stars and non poker stuff. I thought it made poker players look like a bunch of prop betters and supersticionus idiots.
That guy with the gold frog - geesch, I have played with him and he needs a lot more than that frog to help him.
Who cares about Huck Seeds back flip and if I see Suzie Isaacs in one more "outfit" I'm gonna scream.
Why can't they spend the time on the final 10 showing more of the hands not just the decisive ones.
And Phil "I am a changed man now" Helmuth having a fit when some guy calls him with JQ - come on - and what was all that kitchen counter talk. OH! Annie Duke "I could go out and borrow $40,000 and not have to sign anything" or some guy (with Big Blind hat) saying "I could raise $50,000 in 5 min".
It made the whole thing something is just wasn't.
I just want to see poker I really am not interested in the personalities involved.
One thumb down for this tape.
I agree. At least they didn't have Dick Van Patten blathering on like an idiot. But you're right, who really cares about living in Des Moines for a couple of weeks for 10K? But then again, this is the Discovery channel, and they're not trying to be analytical about the entire thing.
Bill
was so funny.
he lost 10k because he couldn't make it the whole month.
i would have liked more poker too. also, less time spent explaining the rules. and less interviews overall. but the des moines bit was great.
scott
If they ever did a poker movie where Huck Seed was a character, they should get Harry Connick, Jr. to do the part. He looks A LOT like him, and I think he could do some of Huck's mannerisms.
Bring back Chip Reese and Chris Marlow!!!
Post deleted at author's request.
Then I don't get it either. What was revealed? That some of the high limit players have more money than sense? That the rest of us should be impressed by them? That we couldn't understand them without Badger to explain them to us? Give me a break.
Brett
Post deleted at author's request.
everyone has one. You prove that all the time.
Keep those cards and letters coming.
Post deleted at author's request.
No I didn't, I said opinions are like a-holes everyone has one.
The key word in your post, Badger, is "general public". That's the audience the show was targeted to. And in my opinion, I believe that the Discovery Channel has portrayed pro poker positively and accurately as it really is to the general public. No mobsters and cheats smoking pipes and cigars while dealing out marked cards like they usually do in the movies.
Rounder,
I saw the original and had quite a similar feeling about how poorly the show was done. I posted my feelings but all other posts praised the show. Now you have vindicatred my negativeism. I didn't like it either.
vince.
I have to admit it wasn't particularly satisfying personally, but what's the Discovery Channel supposed to do? Make the show we want to see and run a disclaimer saying "OK 99% of you will be totally clueless and bored but all you serious poker players stay tuned"?
What would be nice is if someone could make the video we want to see and market it on a smaller scale. We're just too esoteric for the mass market.
xx
Rounder,
I really got a good laugh from reading your post, especially the reference to Suzie Isaacs, you nailed that one(slam dunk!). Here's another thing, since these people are capable of borrowing $50,000 at the drop of a hat, why can't Suzie scrounge up a messily $12,000 for some(long overdue)"Dental Bonding" and fix the look of those rotted cigarette/coffee-stained stumps that once resembled teeth? Hideous!
Thanks again, Martin D
I am a big fan of Suzies she is a great player and can write just as well. She has a movie star quailty in person. I just take the mickey out on her garb at the big events.
I really like her a lot and can have nothing to do with your sarcastic remarks.
She may very well be the 1st female WSOP final event winner - I hope to be at the final table with her one day.
Rounder,
Susie does not smoke. I think she is not that good of a No-Limit player, at least on the day I took her complete stack of chips.
And it's always a close-up photo of her, you notice? Mah is right though, she has quit smoking, but not soon enough--the damage is done.
Good call Martin, Danny
According to Amazon Caro's Book of Tells is out of print. Does anyone know where I could buy a copy on line? What are the odds that a used book store is going to have it?
Jon
I think the Gamblers world has it in Tempe on University Dr. 480-968-2590 the tapes are better than the book.
I think I saw both there last time I was in.
v
For the Book:
http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=54OGOTMV3R&mscssid=LANGRG0QVTSH2MFX0017QUW4XBR6908A&srefer=&isbn=0897461002
Cut and paste the above address into your browser. They've got it in stock, and 20% off.
For the Video:
http://www.gamblersbook.com/cgi/shop/cashcart.cgi?ACTION=thispage&thispage=841925.htm&ORDER_ID=100345479
Do the same.
shooter
Thanks, hope I got my order in before first.
get the video, it's better. make a copy (be careful of that FBI warning) and share the videos and cost with a friend. net cost is $30 each
I just recently scored BOT on CD at a used software store for 9.99
Swfte International,Ltd. PO Box 219 Rockland, DE 19732
Don't know if they have a web site
Thanks for the help
Somewhere in a thread doen below, there's unqualified praise for the movie "Cincinatti Kid"; IMHO it was full of basic poker mistakes. The movie doesn't age too well in that aspect. (OK, I confess that I have a soft spot for it in my heart too! It's always tremendous fun to watch actors like Edward G. Robinson or Steve McQueen in action, no matter what the damn script says.)
--- It is my contention that adequately portraying in film the experience of playing poker is another of those exercises in futility; only weak approximations are possible, as they are with the visual representation of most other mental processes, like chess, painting, etc; so far, every movie with such central themes has been laughable. Perhaps television is the medium where this can be done, eg in showing the amount of boredom involved like when throwing away 12 trash hands in a row.
I can certainly see why a film maker would be willing to cut out the mundane aspects of poker, such as throwing away rags hand after hand after hand. I have no problem with this aspect of "Cincinnati Kid". It's not true to life, and doesn't represent the grind of the real life player, but it makes sense in the film business. It's like telling someone not to buy the greatest hits album of a band they're interested in getting to know, because they'd only be learning about the band's best moments, not their total work. For the diehard fan, greatest hits are a copout. For the casual music fan, it's an easier road to appreciation.
As for the acutal poker in the movie, it IS problematic. Vince said in the post lower down on the page that there should be a sequel, in which the kid comes back and outplays Lancy, because skill eventually wins over luck. And that was my biggest problem with the ending the film; luck beats skill. Up until the last scene, all signs are pointing to Lancy finally meeting his match. Like when Ladyfingers asks him "is the kid getting to you?" and he answers under his breath "not yet, but he just might". Then bottom line is, his raise on 4th street on a gutshot straight draw is a HORRIBLE play. Then when he pulls the miracle card on the river, he justifies it by saying "sometimes it's a matter of making the wrong move at the right time". 999 times out of 1,000, that's a losing way to play, and that's why the ending is so unsatisfying to me. The Kid isn't outplayed, he plays the hand right and suffers a freak bad beat. To me, that's why Rounders is a superior film. The winning hands are always viable, and how many times do you see players make the very same mistakes, like misreading another player for a higher full house, or falling for a bear trap flopped straight? Many times, I'm sure.
Anyway, I'm ranting now, so it's bedtime.
shooter
"you're good, kid, but as long as I'm around, you'll always be second best!"
Thet managed to handle the mundane stuff well in the hustler - it is doable.
Check one of Holden's books for the complete analysis of the climactic hand. It was all played pretty horribly, actually, by both characters, every step of the way; until I read it, I remembered very hazily the details of the scene. At the time of seeing the movie, I wasn't really paying any attention to "details" like proper strategy and such stuff; I was busy getting my fix from the attitude those two tough guys were hamming onscreen.
I saw it around late-60s and back then it was more important for me how I blew smoke rings over the pot than whether the odds were right to call a hand and that kind of sissy crap, no contest.
Wasn't it a gutshot straight FLUSH? That makes more sense.
I've always felt that the point at the end was that the 'Kid' was cheated. That explains how the hand came out that way, and also makes sense in the context of the plot. The kid refused to let Karl Malden cheat for him, even though higher powers were trying to force the issue. So perhaps after they saw that he wouldn't let Malden cheat for him, they switched sides.
But the higher powers had money on the result, so switching sides serves no purpose. I didn't see any hint that they cheated the kid (though I may have missed the signs), neither does it explain the reaction of the others in the room, which to me indicated they felt he played the hand badly and blew his chance.
The movie was about "The Kid". Period. the Kid Either won or lost in the end depending on your point of view. Pragmatists may think he lost a lot of money, maybe even cheated out of it. Romanticists will believe he found something. Something more important than being the greatest poker player. Some times one must lose everthing to find what is really important.
Vince.
That's right.
The Kid loses his shirt at the end, after playing the last hand hideously, so yes, we hope he gets to learn something about the most important thing in life:
Poker.
"OK, I confess that I have a soft spot for it in my heart too! It's always tremendous fun to watch actors like Edward G. Robinson or Steve McQueen in action, no matter what the damn script says"
Such an appropriate title to your post given your soft spot. You did say that spot was in your hea . Hmmm I don't seem to be able to make out the rest.
vince.
I didn't realize subtitles would be needed here.
---The climactic poker scene in Cincinatti Kid is climactic poker trash---I have no problem whatsoever loving movies with trash--- I love the movie.
I'll be going to Las Vegas in two weeks. Where are some of the good places to play low limit Om/8, out on the Strip? I won't be going downtown.
On the strip you are pretty much limited to the Mirage and the Bellagio. At low limits, both places will have "touristy" games. (Except possible mid-week daytime.)
Off the strip, you can go to the Orleans (there are shuttle buses from the strip if you don't have a car) but the games there are generally not as good (in my opinion). But if you think the games at the Mirage and the Bellagio have too much "gamble" for you, by all means try the Orleans.
Also, the xxx Station casinos have Omaha, some h/l, some high only. I am not sure about this. They also have shuttle buses from the strip.
From one Omahalic to another - enjoy! Dave
PS - for future reference - if I want to take a vacation to play Omaha/8, I will fly to LA in preference to Las Vegas. I prefer the action, and love games where variance is the king!
Thanks for the tips, Dave, I'll investigate the Mirage, Bellagio, or Orleans. As for L.A. poker: ironically I'm leaving the land of the fruits and nuts, and moving to the land of cotton. I can't take the California whackos any longer. The poker is good, but the statist far-left government has finally worn me down. Good luck, but watch what you say in L.A.!
am back in montana now. Maybe I will try to type properly. The games as I found them in Cal. are actually better than when they were looser. They are still very liberal but now a person can use more of their skills other than playing tight. As far as I am concerned its the best place to play in the world for limit poker. The air is clean inside with no smoke allowed. This allowed me anyway to concentrate for longer periods of time. Also I didn't have to move my seat out of a money making spot to get away from a smoker. They also serve decent food at the table so you can munch away without leaving. At the higher limit games all food is free or cheap. The dealers are the best I have seen in general. The board is visible and done correctly and the floor decisions are fairly standard and not too biased for regulars or special people. The downsides are the time is expensive compared to Vegas but about the same or less than other new places. Living costs are high and the traffic, well you all know about that.
Hey Ray thanks for the this report and the others. I need to head out to SoCal in the near future and check out the action. Looking forward to your posts again on the forum.
Jesus Ray what a beautiful post! Your best yet! Bravo! Commas, capital letters! Outstanding!!!
Ray, will you or Dan Harrington be attending the WSOP this year?
Do you think this smoking boycott will have any teeth? Are people going to stick to their guns about staying away?
Did you hear anymore about this when you were in California?
i will not be going to the wsop this year. i kind of gave up going into any place thats smok or promotes it. Dan will go for the last few days and play in the big one for sure. as for the smoking boycott that Casey is getting signitures for, i dont believe it really is meant to be a real boycott. its to let the casinos know that most of the players are against allowing smoking during play and want it changed. few will actually boycott the tournaments that continue to allow smoking. its too bad as that would get them on the track. i may go to the taj. tournament this winter as they are now non-smoking and its possible to play at my best. i find myself and many others play longer in non smoking joints. so the few that they may lose are more than made up for by the rest of us and the new people that will now play.
It's good to see someone clearly expressing their decision to avoid smoke in casinos. I was optimistic but realistic about the "boycott" as well. I wish I had enough financial independence as Ray to vote with my feet. As it is now, almost all my to-play decisions are dominated by the quality of the air in a room(, but I can't resist the WSOP). It will probably take some time before the information regarding smokefreeness (from such events as the Harrahs ne Rio and the changes in Taj) conveys itself to all cardroom managers, but there has been more progress in the last couple years than the rest of poker history afore.
JG
Welcome back Ray. I appreciate what your posts have to say (content and brevity). I am planning a trip to LV for 3-4 weekdays days (cheap junket with some well behaved friends-as opposed to my usual friends). I like to play 5-10, 10-20 7-stud and would like to know where to go. I have been doing very well in AC at the Trop and Taj. I am winning 75% of the sessions at about a $15-20/hr net playing about 8-10 hrs/per day on Fridays-Sundays.
sure move up to 15 30 as the games are also easy to beat. you will find they are more aggressive and will make some more unexpected plays at you during the hand. you are good enough to adjust. take some shots at the bigger games maybe even 30 60 with about 1500 dollars and see what happens then decide for yourself. its very important for winning players to try to step up and find a level where they can win at a higher rate without risking going broke. id go to the mirage and bellaggio first and play there. ask about the few other places as i dont know much about them. games are always the best on weekends and special events like a boxing match. and try to play during the hours the tourists are awake. good luck friend.
Summers in AC are very nice with all the tourists. They are generally a very happy crowd. the buses bring a lot of very poor players to AC on the weekends. They are not as happy but they do loose a lot. During the weekdays, it's mostly rocks with an occasional business person or 2 who drop a lot. The 15-30 game reportedly has some teams playing and is a reason I do not play.
Ray,
Your right about the smoking thing. Since I've moved up it's on my mind whether I'm playing or not. I don't enjoy it as much, because you never know when the smoke is going to come your way. I know alot of people it doesn't bother and I've heard all the arguments, but for me I'll just probably quit. Maybe take a ride to AC to play at the TAJ once in a while. I play at a club but that's worse smoking than the casino. I started a home game non-smoking that is bi-monthly. I believe you have to play to stay sharp. The dealers who have to work in a smoking environment are the ones who should really be up in arms over this but they would probably get fired or sign some contract when hired. CA seems like the place to go.
Glad to see you had a good time.
paul
I was in Calgary for a few days and had only time to play once and decided to support the non-smoking place.
The Cash Casino has a daily 20-40 with a full kill to 40-80 ( Canadian dollars of course ).
It was a pleasant place to play and completely non-smoking as advertised.
One problem is that there is only the one game and at that one limit. I can imagine that it could be quite tough at times and also hard to get a seat. It wasn't so bad though for the few hours I was there.
D.
Amazing...20-40 with a full kill in Calgary and nothing bigger than 10-20 in Vancouver.
BTW, all Vancouver casinos have butted out. In fact, every place in Vancouver that "employs" someone has butted out. It remains to be seen whether "skp" will butt out. I promised my wife I would quit upon reaching fatherhood (budding poker player expected in August) - wish me luck.
I'm heading to Vegas in the middle of March and was wondering if anyone had played in the Stratosphere NL Holdem Ring Game on Wed & Sun nites. If you have which night tends to be better? how tough is it? whats the average buy-in? and any other helpful information would be appreciated.
I was there in January. It was a $50 buy-in with $1-$2 blinds. They also have a NL tournament on Sunday for $35 no rebuy. I played the tournament and just watched the game before the tournament started. It seemed like a mixture of good and average players.
I am the grave supervisor at the Stratosphere. The game on Sunday is better, but the game on wed night is a good game. The game gets started about 6:30 and usually last until about noon Mon morning (it lasted until 5 pm last Mon) and on Thur morning it usually lasts until about 7. We have quite a few hotel guests stop in, so the game is good. We also have some regular players who are bad along with some regular players who strong. Let me know if there is anything else I can help you with.
Randy Refeld
Thanks for the response. What time do you recommend getting there on a Sunday to get in the game at 6:30? What would you say is the average buy-in? How much money is usually on the table? What's the rake?
Thanks in advance
If you arrive promptly at 6:30 on Sun you should be able to get a seat in the first game. I would guess a typical buy in is around $200 and the rake is 5% to $2.50 and then an additional $1 on $150 for a max rake of $3.50 By morning there can be close to 10k on the table, but I would say there is between 1.5 and 2k on the table at the beginning of the game. Also on Sun night the 8:30 tournament sells out at about 7. Best of luck.
Randy Refeld
A-6-year-old school girl was shot to death by a 7-year-old classmate at a Michigan elementary school,anything likes this in the world.
A couple of years ago an elementary school girl was killed on the playground by a group of classmates in Sweden or Norway.
Hi, two plus two froum folks,
I was playing chess online the other night. A situation occurred that pissed me off. Er..- excuse me, made me mad. The game was a timed game. each of us had a total of 10 minutes to make all of our moves. Therefore, you could win by either check mate or your opponent running out of time before a decision occurred. A situation arose when I had about 8 minutes remaining and my opponent about five. I play fast, consequently I'm not very good. Too many mistakes. Of course even when I play a non timed game I'm not very good so I prefer the fast games. Instant gratification is a curse. This need for speed shows up quite often in my poker play. Witnessed by my buddy "Dangerous Dan" this past weekend. He commented" Well you played every hand" after I whined about my $1000+ loss playing 20-40 stud and holdem this past weekend at the Mohegan Sun Casino. "Only because I was stuck". I said, and fell asleep in the back of the car while his wonderful wife Terri drove home.
Back to the chess game. As I was saying midway timewise through the game my opponent made a move that was death for him. My next move was check mate. Before I could move my mouse he requested an "undo". He said his mouse slipped and asked if he could take his move back. Now I love to win but I love to play good even more so the fact that I would win the game if I refused the undo did not enter my mind. I immediately allowed the undo and he changed his move and we continued. AA little while later with 5 minutes remaining for me and about one and a half minutes for him a similar situation arose only this time I made a "slip" move. First let me say that the move was a bad one for me but I was still ahead and felt I would win the game even if the move stood But I may have been wrong. I told you, I'm not that good. Anyway I immediately asked for an undo. Oh, yeah another thing, I never ask for an undo when I make a mistake unless my mouse does stick. If it is a mistake mistake I always let the mistake stand and take my punishment. This time though I thought it appropriate to ask and see just what kind of a guy I was playing. In the past against other opponents those that ask always have granted. Anyway I asked and my opponet commented. "I only have a minute left". I thought for a second and then forfeited the game. I wrote this guy a message asking him never to come to a table I was at in the future. He came to another table I was art and said "I feel bad" I know it was not honorable" I cut him off with "you should feel bad, Bye" and booted him from my table.
I must admit that after he came to the table and humbled himself I felt bad. I am the proverbial forgiver. I not much on holding a grudge. I was originally going to post this and ask everyone's opinion. I wanted to see if if you folk thought I was right, wrong, being petty or whatever. But you know what, I guess the bottom line is that if the same thing happened to me again I would handle it the same way. No if's ands or buts. Of course if there were money or someother prize on the line I may not grant the undo in the first place. But then again if that were the case I would ensure that the rules didn't allow for undo's.
Well what do you think, anyway?
vince.
Vince,
My opinion fwiw. I think you should not have granted the first undo. By allowing mistakes you are changing the rules. Just beat him and play another game keep it simple otherwise you create an animal that nobody can tame.
paul
For VERY LONG games like 10,0 it is common to grant mouseos a takeback.
My feeling is you should play 3,0 or less and forget about the slips.
D.
i would have done the same thing. well. until the forfeit. i would have kept playing and still granted any undos he asked for. and i wouldn't have been able to remember his name, so i couldn't have held a grudge.
i too play chess poorly on line sometimes. i always grant undos.
scott
It used to be that standard competitive games were played at a pace of 40 moves each player per 2 hours; from then on, each player could demand an adjournment on his turn to play and the game was broken off to begin after some hours, or even next day, with 20 moves per 30 minutes, etc. Those days are gone and with them the human analysis of adjourned games: blame the lightning-speed chess computer. No sense in comparing software strength after the break.
Anyway, speed chess is somewhat different than 'regular' chess. What must be remembered though, in the context fo your post, is that all the standard Chess rules still apply:
Touch a piece and you have to move it; remove your hand from a piece you moved and the move is over & irreversible; touch or move a piece that cannot legally move and there is no penalty whatsoever.
Sorry but that was a mistake. As someone else also pointed out in this thread, once you start altering the rules, you enter a free-for-all, uncharted territory full of traps. You should have insisted on playing on.
See above. (If you had not allowed the other guy to get away with an infraction of the rules, you would not have felt cheated when your turn came to ask for a favor, right?)
OK, poker metaphor: I know that none of you guys would allow a competitor in a tournament table to UN-muck his thrown-away winning hand. The question is, would you allow that in a friendly game?
Cyrus,
Great response. Thank you!
Vince.
beg
X
Bobby baldwin told a story in his "winning poker secets" book that when he first came to Las Vegas he lost $ 5,000 played crap but use his $500 credit to play and down to last $75,he started to win and run up to $38,225. Next he played blackjack which he knew nothing about,dealer had to show him how to stand and how to ask for a hit,he would stand pat with thirteen against a face card. Sometimes he hit fifteen against six showing and he won $75,000 in five or six hours bet no more than $500 a hand. He then played baccarrat for fifteen minutes,bet $2,000 a hand and won $50,000,he won over $180,000 for a trip.
I also know one professional poker player who told me that when he started to play poker in Vegas he won $50,000 in one month played $10-20 hold'em at Golden Nugget and he continued to have good run of card winning a lot of money to play in big game at Dunes.If someone can get this lucky,can someone get unlucky?
Luck is a 4 letter word.
Baldwin then gave his money to his Dad who proceeded to blow every penny of it in "volatile stocks".
A Chinese guy who is smart enough to figure out the way to win from a special type of slot machine in Europe, won $100,000 in 8 months. He came to US after the govement shut down the slot saloons. He tried to figure out how to beat the "super pan 9" game, and lost $80,000 within 1 year. He then learned how to play poker to win. Without learning playing poker, he would live on the street now.
regards,
jikun
but this chinese guy is smart enough to take the time to learn and study so he doesnt need luck as he wins with his skill. as i met this guy i can see a bright future.
What about the guy that cashed out $5600 in 9-18 Omaha game at Commerce. Players talk a lot about the 9-18 Omaha game at commerce because there is a lot action. Would this game kill the games like 15-30 or 20-40?
I don't know about that but thew 4-8 & 6-12 at my local casino is a lot hotter than the 10-20 which is like watching old people make love.
Lucky to squeek out a few bucks from the rock garden.
Hadi,
Except during big tournaments, there is no big Omaha game to kill in Los Angeles for the past several years.
Regards,
Rick
It's March and he was supposed to have relocated by now and start posting again. Where is he?
Any sightings in LV?
Come on Abe, it's only March 2nd. He probably does not even have a tan yet.
the 605 Fwy and Firestone. Drawing to one too many inside straights will do it every time.
.
This is kinda a Sienfeld post "about nothing" but I just feel like venting.
Last night I had the misfortune of sitting next to the biggest asshole I have played with in a long time.
1st hand I got tangled up with him was 4 daimonds on board - I have Kd and bet - I had 2 chips left. He made a big production of looking and his hand and saying after a long time I'll try one raise but you brobably have the Ad - I said save your bad acting for someone who has chips to lose I only have 2 left - I called and he had the Ad. He says now you'r gonna tell me how to play - I said play any way you want I just said save the bad acting for a time when it could help you.
This jerk "ordered" deck change and set up more than I ever have seen - One ordered deck change the dealer started to shuffel and her replacement was standing there she said can you just wait one hand deck will change when new dealer takes over. He said no I insist on a deck change NOW. She changed the deck and AHole picked up a set of J's dragged a big pot and said to the dealer you lost your chip since you are not happy about my win.
THERE's more.
Ahole was the worst player at the table among several real bad players. He played every hand and was stuck $600 or so. So I didn't punch his lights out but I was tempted. He toked no one - wait staff - weren't fast eneough, chip runners (that he frequently used HAHA) and dealers cuz they just weren't happy eneough when ahole won.
I beat this jerk like a red headed step child OH he flashed his cards a lot too. Looked at them several times a hand - then he had the gall to say to me and this lady - we were talking about the effectiveness of deck changes. My comment was they were beneficial to the bad palyers - she said how so. I said cuz they take time and if we are not playing a hand the poor players have less chances to make bad decisions.
Table cracked up and AHole said we were both (the lady and I) probably broke. LOL HAHAHAH
I lost it and kicked his ass (figuratively speaking) around the table. Out playing him all over the place and the rest of the table let me as they wanted this jerk taught a lesson. He dug in to his wallet for a few more big bens and left with his ugly wife - who he ordered around too.
As he was walking away we laughed our asses at him.
Now this guy was a tourist and we never sew hom before he said something about visiting relatives.
What a jerk. This guy really needs a good beating if I ever saw one.
Thanks for listening - Just venting a bit.
Rounder,
Glad you took him for a wallet emptying ride. . .but I just want to let you know that not all NY players are rude and a**holes. You're welcome in my part of town anyday.
good cards to you, shooter
i hate playing with these type as well. however it seems to me everything he did was in his favor although not socially in line.
Try DEALING to folks like that EVERY night. Makes the job hardly worth it.
I had one guy start cursing because I ordered a fill since my rack was low. He said it took too long and I shouldn't be delaying the game. He even called the floor person.
People do stupid things when they are losing.
John
This's kinda like a pompous post by a know-it-all wiseass but I feel like venting too.
"He made a big production of looking [at] his hand and saying after a long time I'll try one raise but you brobably have the Ad - I said save your bad acting for someone who has chips to lose I only have 2 left - I called and he had the Ad."
Chalk one minus strategy point right there: the man offers a tell, verifiable too, and you 'fordbid' him from giving it again.
"AHole picked up a set of J's dragged a big pot and said to the dealer you lost your chip since you are not happy about my win."
Way I see it, AHole got on the wrong side of the dealer/supervisor which is very promising for him when a decision may be required from the floor - and guys like AHole are more prone to get involved into situations.
"He flashed his cards a lot"
You call that guy an Ahole? instead of SClaus??
(I cannot undertand Ray Zee's comment about "everything [that guy] did was in his favor".)
"Ahole was the worst player at the table among several real bad players. He played every hand and was stuck $600 or so. chip runners ...he frequently used."
Yummy.
"Out playing him all over the place and the rest of the table let me as they wanted this jerk taught a lesson. He dug in to his wallet for a few more big bens and left with his ugly wife. As he was walking away we laughed our asses at him."
I see. Just making sure another losing tourist doesn't come back to the table.
"Now this guy was a tourist and we never sew hom before he said something about visiting relatives."
Brilliant.
I'd rather not play poker if I have to play with aholes like this.
I's rather beat the shit out of them in the parking lot.
Know it all wiseass - thanks for the compliment.
Rounder, I wrote "This's kinda like a pompous post by a know-it-all wiseass but I feel like venting too."
My guess is you already understood that I was referring to myself and my post but you just wanted to humiliate me more, by making me repeat it clearly. Tsk tsk tsk...
What do you care if a guy tokes or not?
What's wrong with New Yorkers? I don't hang there or am from there but I know a bunch of folks from NYC who I think are really fine. Get some headphones, some music and chill a little when somebody bothers you. Also get stereotypes out of your mind, they don't help you a bit.
Let's see, you presumably play poker to make money. You make money by outplaying other players--usually via the simple device of playing soundly when others play badly. Someone comes to your table who plays extremely badly, and you all win lots of his money. Then you treat him in a manner that virtually ensures he'll never come back???? You said you wanted to "teach him a lesson". WHY??? Players like this, their demeanor notwithstanding, are the sort of Godsend you sit at the table, hour after hour, looking for. If you can't tolerate the extraneous bullshit that goes along with playing with someone like that, then you should switch to Internet poker.
well, rounder has already said elsewhere that he would rather not play than play with an guy like that. whether or not i agree with him in this, i certainly agree that there are values besides money. if this guy makes rounder unable to enjoy playing cards, what does he care how profitable he makes the game? it is entirely in rounder's best interests to ensure that this guy never plays again.
and as for the internet poker, i predict rounder would say something like "online poker is like online sex. there's no feel. no rhythm." he will include a smiley face, but i don't write smiley faces. well, except for that episode with the holiday gifts.
scott
Bread 'n Butter my friend
Betelgeusebetelgeusebetelgeuse
ho ho hohohohohohohoho
In case you haven't heard a new members only poker room has opened in Central New Jersey. The games they are spreading are mostly 10/20 holdem and 5/10 and 10/20 7 card stud. Interested players should call 732-271-0003 for more information.
What's the membership entail? Yearly fee? And is 10-20 the lowest Hold'em game they offer? Is it accessable from NYC easily? How many tables? Thanks, just trying to boost the free ad space this forum offers the club.
Shooter: Right now because the room is so new the games vary from night to night depending what the existing members want to play. So far most members seem to favor the 5/10 or 10/20 holdem game. The membership fee is only $110.00 per year and at the present time is being waived to attract new members. The room at this time has 5 tables and room for more when needed. I think the best way from New York city would be the turnpike and route 287 south to exit 9 which is River Rd exit. It's probably best to call the club for directions.
In case you haven't heard a new members only poker room has opened in Central New Jersey. The games they are spreading are mostly 10/20 holdem and 5/10 and 10/20 7 card stud. Interested players should call 732-271-0003 for more information.
Okay I am sort of dumb when it comes to math theories but I'll try to present my question as well as I can. Suppose you are taking a multiple choice exam and come across a question that you have absoluteley no clue about- not even an educated guess. Now suppose that the question has choice a.,b.,c. & d. and d. says all of the above. I came up with the reasoning that one should always choose the all of the above because the question essentialy is either d., or you have to figure out which of the first 3 is correct, but if you have no idea, it is 2-1 for picking the correct answer. But if you choose d. it is essentially 50-50, you are either right or wrong period. I realize this isn't written very clearly but maybe it doesn't matter. Is there any sort of validity to this idea I came up with, or do I just sound like an idiot who came up with a worthless idea that wasn't worth the time spent writing it????? Okay thanks for reading this crap!!!!
GOAT
Haha...
Well, as someone who's taken many a multiple choice test, I understand why you would come up with this sort of theory - empirically, it really does seem like "all of the above" is the answer about half the time...
However, there is no fundamental reason that this has to be true. "all of the above" is just like any other answer. If you pick a or b or c, you're also right or wrong, period. The odds of picking the right answer is always 3-1 and the fact that one is "all of the above" doesn't change this at all.
~DjTj
I guess that my "theory" was actually a pseudo-theory that David and Mason would probably laugh at. Damn I thought I might have figured out something useful too. Oh well, poker is more important then a lousy test theory....right?
I understand that by "empirically" you mean that it just seems that way, ie selective memory is at work, but it's worthwhile to note that if it's actually anything ressembling 50% of the time that it's the correct answer when the option is available, then it's abslolutely the correct "play" to choose "All Of The Above" every time.
In the absence of other data of course; like knowing the correct answer, as you're supposed to...
[There was a book I never read but remember reading about; it had the underlying "logic" of SAT questionnaires, eg intentional streaks, least likelies, etc, and supposedly offered a better-than-average chance of beating the test for someone who had not exactly done his homework.]
I personally do believe that picking "All of the Above" is probably the correct play...
However, there is no fundamental reason that this should be true - it is simply a failure on the part of the test-makers.
Actually, there are some tests where D is always "All of the Above" and in those tests the test writers will leave only 1/4 of the answers to that option. However, those tests where only a few questions have the "All of the Above" choice often seem to make the frequency of that choice a bit higher than 1/4...
I think it gets more skewed on small-scale tests created by underpaid history teachers - the SAT's probably don't have quite as large a gaping hole...
~DjTj
I am very interested in American history. I read this word many times, but I dont know what the G.I. means. I have asked several people in casino. First answer I got was:"I do know, maybe you should ask people over 60s". Then I asked several players looks older including my coach and I got all different answers like: ground infantry, goverment issue, ground issue. What is the right word? Thanks in advance.
regards,
jikun
and i am not quite 60.
scott
xx
Hi! I'm pretty new to poker (about 50 hrs), playing mostly in small games here at school. I would like to get involved in better games to build experience, but in the mean time I'm going to San Juan soon, and was thinking it would be nice to play in casinos there. I am wondering, has anyone has played in San Juan before? Could you give me some idea as to what the game is like there? Any tips? Thanks a bunch.
-David
Does anyone know of any poker clubs somewhat close to DC where 18 year olds can play? Like withen a few hours drive? I'm going to be on spring break the following week and was looking for a place to play a little 5-10. thanks
Mark
It looks done now.
Looks bad for poker.
Bad for poker in LV that is. I can't see how this will affect the games in Cal.
I am amazed it happenned this quick.Lets see nickel slots in the Poker room. I live in Vegas and have been working on moving up. Now my options are the Horshoe or commute to LA.If you play BJ also very bad news. The local paper also mentioned CA votes on full scale casinos Tues. the slot manuf. are expecting to deliver within 45 days,there are 54 Indian Tribes on line.This is going to be a very interesting time in Western Gaming.
Looks like slots will overwhelmingly take over AC and LV. I only hoped that Steve Wynn had some other plan, but I think not. It has been a long road for Wynn who has set the standards, but now I guess he has just been worn down. Who can argue with the chance for him to finally move on and collect his 485 million. I wish him well, but wish he stayed in LV and opened up in AC.
I was just listening to NPR on my way to work, and they made some comment about Wynn using his millions from the sale to buy the Desert Inn. Based upon the wording they chose, I believe that this comment was not based upon inside information, but probably just some pundit who thought that this would be a good idea for Wynn.
In any event, it would be hopeful if Wynn bought out some other casino like that and started anew. That way, if MGM abandons poker, Wynn can recreate the Bellagio poker room at a new location. Heck, if all the bigger games (15-30 and up) were in one location, rather than split between Mirage and Bellagio, it might turn out to be better for poker in LV (or not?).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
There's no way Wynn would buy the DI.He's into building and developing.In the 'New" Las Vegas the whole town will be run by a small # of mega corps. run by bean counters. The only way you'll see him back is if he develops properties in AC. I saw him in Bellagio a few months ago. He looked tired,old and worn out.
Maybe you should expect reinforcements in a year or two.
there goes the neighborhood...
Will it affect our games here in Atlantic City?
Oh Donald is really laughing now. He fought against Steve's highway and looks like he has won.
some friends of mine are going to puerto rico for spring break. they play in my weakly super low stakes for fun game. they like the game a lot and want to play during their vacation. does anyone know anything about poker in the 51st state?
scott
There is no live poker in Puerto Rico. The crime rate is VERY high. Be carefull!!
John
Just incase anyone is interested they are spreading a 400/800 HE at Casino Arizona these days.
Dollars??...no thx:)
yeah sure. i'll just take this tuition check and..
scott
Is the game live or are people partnered up?
If it's live I'd like to play there (I have some backers--I play and we split the risk)
If it is the same old faces playing the same bankroll forget about it.
"Live" would be an understatement when talking about these games the past few weeks. Basically they wait for the same fish, start a 75-150 mix and bump it up at his request. Very profitable if you can afford it, even just taking a shot at it.
Given the money in suburban Phoenix, I'm not surprised that they could spread that game. They must have gotten enough requests. I didn't win the Powerball on Saturday, so I won't be playing any $400-$800 in the future.
x
or did you happen to loose the money again? Come on. Post your winning session.
Before I can play in that game, I'll need to hire someone to spray Black Flag on my rich uncle's Cheerios.
It's never been straight holdem, has it? Usually it's mix when I've been there. Was a good 200-400 stud mix game (stud high, eight or better, razz, and any-any). Those high limit mix games are usually great games if you can afford to take a shot at it.
By the way, I saw you in there on either Friday or Sunday (Friday I think). You were cashing out and I would have said hi, but I was in the middle of a hand.
Lets see, at 5 BB/hour that is $4000/hr you can make Rounder.
D.
ummm...ahem...can you...like...stake me in that game, Rounder?
His daughter.
How are you doing so far? Even at 1BB/hr win rate, a couple of good sessions should provide enough for at least a down payment on a new 'Benz.
An interestingly stupid wager that has cost at least 2 players an average of over $14,000 on Who Wants to be a Millionaire...
Situation: The player is at the $64,000 level and has no clue on the answer and has his 50/50 lifeline left to use. After using the 50/50 on this question they have 2 choices left for the answer, one correct one and one wrong one. Twice I've seen people on the show quit here. Lets look at the cost of this mistake...
Quitting:
The player keeps $64,000.
Randomly guessing at the answer:
If they miss it, they get $32,000. If they answer correctly, they get $125,000 and play on for more. So, on average, the player will receive $78,500. This isn't even considering that the player may get more questions right after the $125,000 level.
It just goes to show how much people can be costing themselves by not preparing for a situation. Things like this come up in poker quite often, where if you just knew the odds of a certain hand winning, or something like that, you would be saving/winning great amounts of money in the long run, when it all averages out.
Yes but George this situation will come up at any level. You got 500,000 and going for 1mil and use 50/50. You can win 500,000 more or loose ONLY 468,000
Some people draw the line sooner than others. Will you jump to play 6k-12k if you only have 100k?
I guess you're right. It just depends. It just seems at that particular level the reward outweighs the risk. Put it this way, at 64k, I'd go for it, at 500k, I'd play it safe.
George,
I have long noticed a similar pattern on Jeopardy! but my approach advocates NOT risking any money in an attempt to win. In many cases one player is so far behind on the final question that they no chance of winning UNLESS both the other players fail to answer final Jeopardy correctly. For example, the leader has 15,000, the next 14,000 and the last 2,500. The top must risk at least 13,001 to protect against #2 and #2 must risk all to protect against a correct answer by the leader. So, even if #3 doubles they will not win if either #1 or #2 get it right. Therefore, their best shot is to wager $0 and hope the others get it wrong. Yet, I have seen numerous situations where the #3 players bets it all, everyone misses and the #1 player takes it. Another example of a lack of preparation costing someone a chance at some $.
KJS
Regarding WWTBAM, An average person's own perception of $ (utility) can change the picture at the big $, but at 64K it is pretty well horrible to quit. At 125K and (esp.) above, I think a players perception of $ could be the overriding consideration. Also, reducing one's SD is a good thing, and generally comes only at the price of a lesser EV.
Yes, there are many situation in Jeapordy where players incorrectly bet on the end. Assuming the leader will bet enough so that if correct they win makes this "zero bet" play work well. If you tip off that you are aware of this reasoning, however, you may find a tricky enough leader knocking you out with a zero bet...
Now you know why I get so much free stuff in Vegas. The 'average' person doesn't have a clue.
Bad example. The person in second should clearly eliminate the person in 3rds cahnce of winning, as he knows he cant beat the leader if they are right. In your example:(15,14,2.5) the person in second should not bet more than 9000.
Danny
I don't think you understand utiiity theory. Those people are often right to quit.
Here's a hypothetical. I give you 100 million dollars. Now, I offer you a deal - let's flip a coin, and if you win I'll give you 200 more million, but if you lose you give me the 100 million back.
You're a 2-1 favorite here. Is it smart to go for the deal?
If you are Bill Gates, probably. If you are a normal citizen, you'd be a moron to go for it, because the added utility of 200 million dollars is not worth a 50/50 chance of losing 100 million.
For some people, a 64K windfall is a life-changing event. They can pay off the mortgage, send a kid to college, take early retirement, etc. A lot of the players have been students, and 64K will let them finish college, enter the workforce free of debt, and put a downpayment on a new house. The added 14K in EV for going for the 125K is not smart gambling for many of them. This is especially true when the money gets higher. If you gave me $500,000 and asked me to risk it, that bet had better have HUGE EV or I'm not going for it.
Also, I have to point out that they'd be seriously overbetting their bankrolls...
I posted the same thing as George a couple of months ago. While I agree with your utility theory, my opinion is that for most of us, the utility theory would not have us quit and take the 64k in this situation. After all, we get 32k even if we get the question wrong. Thus, unless you have some compelling urgent need for say 50k (i.e. 32K just won't do), taking a guess would be the proper thing to do for most of the contestants that get on the show. Taking a shot at it also gives you a chance to win half a million or a million. I think it was the Fossilman who pointed out that in say 5 years or so, it would make very little difference in your life (looking back) if you won 64K instead of 32K. But if you happen to go on to win $500,000 or even $250,000 instead of 32K, you certainly will have one heck of a lifestyle change.
I know what I would do if I were ever at this stage: "eenie, meenie, minie, moe"...talk about spelling gaffes there...anyone know how to spell those words.
And you probably wouldn't have to phone a friend to ask what the first article of the constitution says, like the lawyer on last night had to do. ( Assuming Canada has articles of their constitution as well :))
D.
The thing that gets me with this game is when the audience is polled and it is obvious that many, if not most, just flat out guess at the answer. I'm waiting for the first smart contestant who asks the audience to not participate in the question if they have no idea.
Good point.
I wonder if they must answer for some reason. I highly doubt it though.
You're overlooking something very basic. For certain people, a given amount of money--already "in the bag"--may not be worth risking regardless of any favorable odds offered. Let's say you're playing Who Wants and your true motive is to get the $125,000 for your dying daughter's kidney transplant. You reach the 125K level, and now you're REAAAL sure you know the answer to the 250K question--but a lingering shred of doubt remains. Would you quit? You probably would. Regis alluded to this phenomenon a few weeks ago when he remarked that doctors and lawyers were more likely to climb higher on the ladder, risking large sums, because they were usually well enough off that blowing $250K, or whatever, would not be a life-changing disaster. Everyone has their breaking point:) For example, let's say you won ten million in the lottery, and just after you received the money, an eccentric billionaire called you up and offered to bet another ten million against yours in a card-cutting contest; if he cuts a face card, he wins your ten million, anything else, you win his ten million. Now this proposition is highly in your favor, but would you take it? No way! (Unless ten million is just pocket change to you, in which case this would be simply a good bet.)
George,
Nice meeting you last night - hope your cards got better than mine.
On the game thing these guys are not gamblers - not at all. Ther are more like bankers who don't know or want to know about odds or probability.
The amount of money we are talking about is college for the kids and paying off the $20K visa bill.
It is hard for a guy who never say $10 grand in one place to take a chance for large sums of money.
Cheers, Mike
It was nice meeting you too. I got knocked out about 10 minutes after you did, only I managed to spend quite a bit more on rebuys. ;)
I've been splitting my time between Tulsa, Oklahoma and Albuquerque during the past year and a half. My permanent home is in Albuquerque. My assignment in Tulsa is ending soon and I will be returning to Albuquerque to live full time. I don't know how many of you all are from the Tulsa area but I wanted to say a couple of things about the Tulsa community. What a great place Tulsa is! I had no idea when I started coming out here that I would like this area so much. Everyone I have met here has treated me really well. If you're ever looking for a laid back, very friendly place to live you could do a whole lot worse than Tulsa.
I'm signing off of the forum for awhile. I will probably lurk from time to time. I started participating from almost the first day and the growth has been astounding. I think the quality of the forum posts in the aggregate is excellent. If you want to get feedback on your thoughts regarding poker strategy this is the place to get it. Of course the books by 2+2 are the best and the advice from Ray, Mason, and David is the best available (at least in my small universe). Things have changed where poker has taken a back in things in my life so I just don't have the time anymore to devote to getting better. I'll keep in touch Chris and John.
.
Best of luck, Tom. Your absence will be a real loss to to the forum. But life is change, right? I'll be in touch.
we'll miss you. good luck.
scott
Yo Haley, my X-mas christmas list had you getting a compass to help you find your way BACK to the Forum - not out of here and into Albuquerque.
We'll miss ya. Good luck and I hope you continue with the odd post now and then.
Cheers.
skp
Tom,
Your posts have always been great. In the older archives, I use them as an indicator that the thread is worthwhile. Good Luck in your endeavors and we will miss you here.
Regards,
Rick
So who's gonna help me keep the Stock forum alive? :-(
CV
Tom, is it OK to continue to chat 1:1 on occasion? I have your e-mail address. Respond by e-mail if you like. If we dont' hear from you for a while, I have really enjoyed your comments and analysis. Hope to hear from you soon.
he has pulled this one on us once before if i remember. Tom needs the mental stimulation and we will welcome his return as we need his.
Tom:
Best of luck and thanks for all the support.
Was in Tunica the weekend before last for a "arg" event and to play the Hold'em side games at the Horseshoe.
Note: This is not a trip report (there's lots of those on rgp) EXCEPT to tell you that Diane B from Green Bay won the Omaha/8 tournament and is again TOC Qualified.
Back to the side games. Horseshoe had hold'em at 20-40 (usually two tables) 10-20 (two sometimes three tables) and 4-8 (one or two tables) going all weekend. Omaha/8 table was 5-10 with a full kill. One and sometimes two tables of Pot Limit Omaha High were usually going. Jack Keller was often in the PLO game.
The hold'em games were good at all levels. Sometimes the "main game" at each limit could get a little crusty, but the "must move" tables were very live.
Staff and facilities at the Horseshoe and the Gold Strike were excellent as usual. I am going back in 3 weeks for the first weekend of the Jack Binion World Poker Open. The upstairs ballroom at the Gold Strike looks like a good spacious site for this event. They are expecting a big turnout.
Any other 2+2 posters/lurkers going?
Abe,
I'll be there April 2nd - 5th.
Abe and I have all aready exchanged our trip plans, but for the rest of you......
I will also be down there 3/24-4/2 (Sorry to miss mah!) and then back again 4/13-4/17.
Diane from Green Bay
I have no doubt that something similar will air one day: Ten people are randomly chosen from the studio audience. They are given the chance to engage in the following proposition: nine people will be given one million dollars, tax-free, on the spot. The tenth will be dragged off and shot, right there on network TV. If anyone refuses the proposition, then additional audience members will be given the opportunity to play until the quota of ten participants is met. Now, the hypothetical questions, which are guaranteed to bring any cocktail party to a screeching halt: 1. Do you think they would eventually get ten players? 2. Would YOU play? 3. Would YOU play if the "pool" was 100 players (and presumably everyone except the person who lost gets a million?) How about 1000 players? 4. In other words, what odds would you have to be given before you would risk your life for $1,000,000? (I have one friend who says he would accept lower odds if he was the one who got to pull the trigger on the loser, but never mind.)
The key to the next popular game show will be making sure the players have a chance to lose a lot. So maybe you are on to something.
"Who Wants To Live?" for the title?
Don't they have some show in England where they smash up your car if you lose?
D.
I'm not aware of any such show. We do have many programmes where contestants are ritually humiliated at every turn though. I believe you have these in the States as well :-)
Andy.
You are a sick person
Thank you for sharing your opinion. My life has been made immeasurably richer by the receipt of your constructive dialogue and I only wish I could meet you in person so I could more properly show my appreciation. I also commend your quick and professional psychiatric evaluation of someone you've never seen, talked to, or met. There should be more people like you in the world to render their opinions without the time-consuming and bothersome burden of facts.
Your question reminds of the scene in "Austin Powers" where Dr. Evil threatens to destroy the world unless the UN (or whoever they are in the movie) gives him one million dollars and the security coucil starts laughing at him. I'm 33, so one million dollars would be like having a decent, but not great job, until I retire. Getting 10 people to volunteer would go along way to proving social Darwinism though.
It has come to my attention that David Sklansky blew our $300 rgp bet on purpose because of a personal favor I have done for him. I suspected he hit a wrong button in some kind of drug-related or woman induced emotional frenzy, but apparently I was wrong.
Nice gesture from a nice man. Hope he posts on rgp again soon.
---
Meet at TRNMT to discuss STUPID issues.
Sign Below:
1) PF
2)JWC
But they must be real stupid.
Hadn't played over the weekend at my usual casino, and dropped in Monday night for a session. One of the floormen asked where I had been the past few days, and I told her I had been at a Rules of Golf seminar for 3 days (part of the job, don't ask!). She asked me what I thought about this ruling that came up at the casino over the weekend.
Three players left on the river. 3-6 HE. Player in #6 seat is first to act of the 3 left. He bets, player in #10 seat releases his hand into the muck, and dealer, who has by now set aside the butt of the deck, starts to push the pot to #6, who threw his cards face-down into the muck as well. At this point, player in #1 seat says, "Hold on. I've still got a hand." He calls, and shows his hand face-up. (He had 2 pair, but that's irrelevant)
At this point, the floorperson asked me how I would have ruled. I said that IMO it is up to the player to protect his hand at all times, and that despite the dealer error in starting to push him the pot, once he released his hand into the muck, that the remaining player in #1 seat was entitled to the entire pot. The #1 player was a fairly new player, and he offered to split the pot with #6. I said that IMO this was more than fair; #6 should be happy to get anything. They did eventually split the pot 50/50, but apparently #6 threw a temper tantrum, bitching about the dealer error, blah,blah,.
Is the proper ruling that #1 is entitled to the whole pot, despite his offering to split it? Or does #6 have any sort of justification because the dealer had started to push him the pot. There was not a significant time delay between the dealer starting to push the pot and #1 calling a halt to the proceedings. Would it have been a different story if #6 had been able to scoop in the pot, and #1 came to life say, 10-15 seconds later? Rick Nebiolo, help me out here.
Absolutly correct. Once you muck your cards they are dead.
Letter-of-the-law ruling: #1 gets the pot. #6 had the responsibilty to protect his hand, and didn't do so. Period. Ruling I would render on the floor: The actions of the dealer (pushing the pot prematurely to #6) PROVOKED #6's error. So the house is also partially at fault. If #6's hand can be retrieved from the muck to the satisfaction of all then I would award the pot to the best hand. If it cannot be retrieved (likely), then I would have the house match the pot, award equal amounts to #1 and #6, severely reprimand the dealer, and soldier on. Back in the 80's I saw the house stand good for dealer blunders in just such a fashion. It cost the house a few bucks, but in the long run it avoided long-drawn out disputes and the sowing of ill-will. Of course, such a policy would NEVER occur in today's mega-card factories.
Kevin has it right although its too bad the casinos will not take resposibility for their mistakes.
Cards in the muck should be considered dead - #6 should have known #1 didn't act yet so pot to #1. Players are responsible for their hands PERIOD.
Dunc,
I've been painting in confined spaces all day so my mind may have gone with all the vapors I inhaled but I'll add a few thoughts anyway.
As others have stated, in most cardrooms the default ruling would be that the player in seat #1 would get the pot. Although the dealer made a huge error, seat #6 also made an error in that he should be more aware of who is left in the hand when he bet on the river.
BTW, cards hitting the muck are not automatically dead in Los Angeles. We have "retievability" if doing so is in the best interest of the game. For example, lets say in a similar situation seat #6 bet and the same events happened but his cards were only touching the muck and identifiable. I would retrieve them and if they beat seat #1 he would get the pot.
Another example: Let's say seat #6's hand couldn't be identified and retrieved but seat #1 was delaying and hiding his cards (i.e., he induced the error) and calls after seat #6 bets and tosses his hand in. Seat #1 has a busted draw with low cards. I would then award the pot to seat #6 based on the fact that If the player in seat #1 could not beat anything and I'm not going to award the pot on the basis of an angle (I'm assuming in this case that seat #1 is a known shot taker as opposed to a beginner).
If this post gets any responses, I may not be able to reply again until tomorrow evening PST.
Regards,
Rick
Here is another example were I probably would award the pot to a hand that was tossed in the muck. I say probably because there is usually other unstated pertinent evidence.
Let's say in seven card stud player A bets the river and player B calls. On the showdown player A announces a straight as he spreads a hand of T 9 7 6 5 3 2 and player B tosses his hand in the middle of the muck. As the pot is being pushed to player A, the fact that player A does not have a straight is noted by another player. Now I wouldn't say player A deliberately miscalled his hand (he probably misread it), but it clearly could not beat any hand that player B called with. So I would award the pot to player B.
In the above example, the problem for me (as a floorman) is that player A's hand is rarely that weak. Usually it will be a busted straight with a medium pair. Now how can I say that player A deliberately miscalled his hand (after all, who hasn't overlooked the fact that one card is missing from ones straight)? In this situation I have a problem. (Note: Deliberately miscalling one's hand will result if forfeiture of the pot per Los Angeles rules. The problem is that it asks the floorman to look into a player's mind. I would say a player with the hand in the example above calling "full house" is deliberate. The fact is, I have not had occasion to make this ruling in five years. Usually the hand called is close to the hand shown and I cannot be sure it is deliberate.)
The lesson to players is always hold on to your hand until you can clearly see that you are beaten. This is especially true when your opponent appears to have a straight, as it is very easy for a player or a dealer to misread it.
Regards,
Rick
I have seenthis happen in AC. In fact something similar happened to me this weekend. Generally player 1 would be entitled to the pot unless the other player's hand (the winner presumably) can be reconstructed unequivically. Case in point. At the showdown, the cards show Q6JQ6. Player 10 shows his hand to be QA for Queeens full. Player 2 throws his habd into the muck. Player 6 sees #1's A and tosses his hand face down TOWARD the muck. The dealer catches the cards before they go into the muck then pushes the face up cards and calls Queens full of sixes. The #6 player had a Q9. He too had queens full of sixes, but thought the A in player #1's hand was a winner when in fact it was a chop. Player 6 said, "Wait" to the dealer and asked him to call the floor before the dealer mucked the cards. The floorman came over and asked the dealer what transpired. After an explanation, the cards were turmed over and the pot was split. The key was the cards although face down NERA the mucjk were still under control of the dealer.
I saw a case when a player thinking he had lost the pot threw his cards at the dealer. The cards went on the floor which should be ruled a dead hand. However, the poker mamager, John Campbell, ruled the hand was still live even though the PLAYER threw the cards away (it is different if a dealer deals a card off the table). He awarded the pot to the man whose cards were technically "dead". The other player protested. Got the names and ID #'s of the dealer and mamager. He asked to have the pot counted. He then went to the NJ Casino Control Comission which has an office in every casino to complain. Later that evening paid the amount of money that was in the pot. I do not know who paid him. I assume the casino paid off after looking at the tape.
ratso,
Good story. I definitely like to facilitate that the best hand gets the pot but I'll be dammed if I will go out of my way to award the pot to some player who tossed the cards at the dealer.
Regards,
Rick
I think John was wrong, but he was an experienced poker manager from LV who was running the small room at AC's Showboat (Poker room is now closed). I cannot understand why he went to all the trouble to accomodate the player who threw his cards. I certainly would not.
Just the other day we had a beginner make the following beginner's error -
On the river the board had AKQJT with no flush possible - no one even took the "shot" to bet the river; it was just checked around; and then one fellow threw his hand into the muck, thereby giving up his share of the split pot.
This was not a big dollar error - I think each share was about $10 - but the mucker really did lose his share.
Dick
Many rooms have a rule that says something similiar to a hand touching the muck may be declared dead. I would say the important word in this rule is "may" if a hand may be declared dead then a hand may be declared not dead. Poker rooms are finally moving towards a policy of "best hand wins" instead of "let's take the pot fromthe beginner and give it to the more experienced player on a technicality."
Randy Refeld
I have finally done my chores and scanned in photos for skp, John Feeney, and Paul Feeney. They are in the photo gallery on my poker page.
Are these 2 really brothers? We've all seen John Feeney in Poker Digest. Here's John -
And here's the picture Paul sent me -
Just teasing, guys. Enjoy the new pictures.
Dick
its my first look at PF and im glad to see he is not missing any meals.
Guess I'll have to get someone to take my picture so I can send it in. If Paul thinks it's safe, Ill try too. Hopefully I have not insulted too many people.
no you have been great. if you are as chubby as PF id advise to hold the camera sideways to get all in.
Now your insulting my Uncle Chub Feeney. Have a nice package.
cf
I DON'T think it's safe. But danger is my middle name.
Ratso,
That's why Ray had to move to Montana and be surrounded by bears and other animals that he gets friendly with due to his insultuous nature he cannot live around HUMANS. As VL put it so graciously "ONE" One Nasty Egghead. Ray's new movie coming out "Snowcap And The Seven Dweebs" should really be a winner in the under 12 theaters.
paul
I spent the weekend at the Trop in AC playing 10-20 and 5-10 stud and (shamefully) 2-4 HE. It was a blast. I have never seen so many weird-o's in my life, and I am probably on the fringe myself, so you can imagine what was there. the size of the pots were giantic. The 5-10 game was great. I showed trip aces showing with pocket 4's, and I was called by a pair of JAcks showing and a pair of Kings and a high straight. I thought I was against quads. Three callers. I did not have the guts to raise. I won against a straight, trip jacks and a baby full house. Nice
Just do one thing: in the spirit of Wild Bill Hickok, don't sit with your back to the door.
Dick
Thank You Ray for that gracious compliment. I'm sure that will get everyone to send in their photo just so they can hear your take on it.
Please open my letter that I will be sending you alone.
lp
Ray - Now I know why I put in my own picture only from the neck up.
I won't put in a full-body shot until after I win my Mr. Universe title.
Dick
Paul is on the East coast, but from the pictures you'd think he was the one in Calif. Now *I'm* starting to get confused.
Who netted the most amount of money from poker during the 20th century? By "netted", I am referring to the end difference between total won and total lost. Obviously, guys like Nick the Greek and Titanic Thompson wouldn't make the list. That's because these two guys were known to have lost as much as or more than they had won. Was the biggest winner Chip Reese? Ray Zee? I read somewhere that it was O'Neil Longson. Is this true? Does anyone out there know? Just curious.
Probably someone in a private game of whom we've never heard.
JG
Although he probably doesn't want to elaborate, I've always been told it is Mr. Zee.
Brett
O'Neil Longson sounds like a good candidate. I've played against him and also watched him play -- he's like Rain Man; totally unconscious in big-bet games.
"Unconscious". Can you elaborate?
That's funny you should mention him in reply to my post at random. I actually played him one night headsup at the Mirage when the 40-80 game dwindled to 2-handed a couple years ago. Unconscious is also an interesting choice of words. I had been up since 5am having driven in that day, but I was the awaker of the two. Discretion prevents me from providing much more.
JG
I can reply to both you and Kojee's posts here. By "unconscious" I mean that O'Neil looks like he's asleep even when he's walking -- but especially when he's playing. Yet over the years he has consistently made inspired plays against the best players in some of the toughest games. That's not to say he doesn't lose: in particular I remember one night playing in an 80-160 stud game at the Commerce, he sat down with a short stack and when he lost it, he got up and walked away. But when it comes to NL or PL games, he has certainly been one of the very best over the years. Further, his record in WSOP super-satellites is simply astounding: I remember one 10-day stretch where he won 4 seats. If I recall correctly, Bob Ciaffone also rates him as one of the very best PLO players in the world. Maybe someday all our games will be as diversely strong.
Doyle Brunson has probably held on to the most money. Much of his money was derived from sports betting however, as was Chips. I do have an associate playing in home games in South Africa that is up $600,000 so far this year.
More money changes hands in home games in HongKong (marjon (sp) and Thailand stud than all the card rooms in America. These guys play for HUGE money.
x
There was a rather extended outage of functionality on the 2+2 website last night. ConJelCo was affected as well. The problem was not of our doing, but I believe it has been fixed. I apologize for any inconvenience that this caused.
Chuck
Well, I did'nt listen very good at the directions you gave me, to leave you a message, so I hope this gets to you. We spoke tonight on the phone. I can't wait to hear from you again. I am going to look through your web site and try to find a picture, and maybe I'll use my cell phone and call the line to get a hold of you...yea I think thats what I'll do Heidi
When played in a tight 6-12 Holdem game today, I raised from the cut-off as 1st one in with Q10 suited and only BB called with J3 suited. Flop was 10-7-3 rainbow and he won the pot when a J hit on the river. When he stack chips, he said I had at least a pair, better than AK and you may be stealing (I did not show my hand). On the way home, I thought about this hand and felt he was wrong. If I was stealing, his AK is as good as pair 3s, and if I had pair 10s, his AK has 6 outs to improve and J3 has only 5. In other words, AK against a stealing without flopping a pair tends to be better than J3 flopping a pair of 3s. Am I right? Thanks in advance for your comments.
regards,
jikun
I am planning to be there at least 2 weekends and possibly more depending on some personal situations.
I would like to meet any 2+2 ers for a beer on me.
Maybe our social director Diane can arrange a get to gether.
If you really feel the need to buy me beer, we can do that right here in Phoenix.
Any time pal.
Hey foggettaboutit. Beer's on me at the WSOP and I only drink Coffee!
Vince
I have a room booked at Binions for the entire WSOP, but will only be there for a 4-7 day trip. I just haven't figured out which 4-7 days yet. Be glad to meet you in person (and make one of those famous last longer bets).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
So, you're finally gonna make a good bet (hehehe).
Greg I'll just give you the 2 bits. I play better, or so it seems, when I don't have LL bet going. I'm 0 for 2 and I don't like that record but I'd be pleased to buy you a beer.
I would ask Big John to let me get even though his luck can't hold up forever.
I just got off the phone making my reservations for the first weekend 4/21-4/24. I will play in the first three super satelites for sure. I will probably play in some one table satelites as well. I was booked into the Four Queens by Emily. She is Binions WSOP hostess for rooms. $59 for weekend rates.
Hi Guys- Diane will be at WSOP, but just not sure yet on dates. Best guess is 5/3 -5/8.
However, once I set my plans I will post for all and will try to organize another get together for anyone interested.
Diane from Green Bay
I haven't missed one in many years, but I've always thought that some anonymity is one of our greatest assets at the WSOP ...
Maybe........
But one of the "greatest assets" I have accumulated in poker is the many friends I have made through this forum and rgp.
Diane
Add my name to the list for the World Series.
I'll be there the first week, and plan to play in 3 or 4 events.
Danny S
I'm going to be in Vegas from 3/15 to 3/21. I plan on playing 8/16 at the Bellagio and 6/12 and 10/20 at the Mirage. I'm fairly young and I'll have a Seattle Mariners baseball hat on. If you see me and you feel like it come up and say hello. I'd be nice to meet some other 2+2 posters.
I'm gonna miss you but I love the 10-20 at binions on firday night.
I thought I would share this hand with you guys. I was playing in an unusually loose 4-8 Hold Em game the other night where one pot got 10 way action. There were 3 raises so the pot was laying 40 bets before the flop. I was holding AK spades. The miracle flop came down: Js,2s,7s. I flopped the nut flush! Strangely enough, by the time the betting got to me everyone had called and it was once again capped! By now this is like a dream come true; people are throwing their money into this huge pot and I have the nuts. The turn card comes 3h. First position bets, everyone in between passes and I of coarse raise. He re-raises, I cap. River card comes Jh. He had J3 offsuit!!! I my math is right the odds of his jack and his kicker "filling him up" are approx 88 to 1 against. Bad Beat? Maybe not because the very next hand he did it to me again!!!
Didn't get to play much this time down, but did play 6 hours of Holdem at the Bellagio on Friday. The table was occupied by 5 regulars (I almost know these people by name), 2 unknown's, 2 fish, and I.
The Regular's played pretty straight forward and solid, not really any big suprizes there. The two unknowns were just a bunch of different players that never stayed around very long sometimes leaving the game short handed. The fish were two germans who played anything and were just big calling stations. I figure between the both of them they shoveled anywhere from 500 to 700 on the table and then busted out. They were replaced by two other players all that played almost anything. It was a very good game and I was sad to let it go, but I was visiting relatives this time down.
Later, CV
I will be down in Tunica MS for the opening of the World Poker Open. My actual plans are to be there for the period of Friday 3/24 through Sunday 4/2. Returning again 4/13-4/17 for the Championship event.
If anyone else will be there during that time and wants to get together for a meal and a chat, please let me know either through this forum, via email, or leave a message at my room. Will be staying at Horseshoe during the entire time.
Diane (from GB) Biersteker
I will be heading to Phoenix next week with a friend who has to attend a conference. While she is at the conference I will be playing some poker. Where are the best places to play and what type of limits. I usually play 6-12 to 15-30. All suggestions will be helpful. I am not sure what part of Phoenix but the more info. the better. Thanks
Dice
For those limits, your only real option is Casino Arizona at Indian Bend. Although if you play stud, the 6-12 games at Gila River tend to be amazing.
heh
October. I played in the 6-12 stud game at Gila River quite a bit up until then. I also played up to 20-40/30-60 at Casino Arizona during the same time, but I was more consistently successful in that game than any other at the time. At the time it was played with a full kill (12-24) on a $100 pot, but I don't think they do that anymore.
Remember, we all start somewhere.
To get above 6-12 you have to go to Casino Arizona, the location at the 101 freeway and Indian Bend. This is on the east side of Scottsdale, just onto the reservation.
Give me an e-mail or a call and we can try to say hi. My phone number (and my picture, actually) are on my web site at annabelles-treasures.com.
Dick
I am making my first legal trip out to Vegas on April 20-22(Well first trip not using my brothers ID) and I would like to know where to play when I am there. I have a reasonable amount of time in 100+ Hours at Low Limit Holdem in California Casinos and consider myself well read. I would like to play in a Satellite at Binions,and would like to play at the Bellagio,and in my downtime at my home casino the Sahara. Also, if any of you 2+2'ers are out there during the 20-22 of April say hello. I will be the Cacuasian looking kid with Black hair most likely wearing Jeans and a T-Shirt. I play mostly 1-4-8-8 But might try a move to the 5-10 if anyone can convince me that they are different, in play and strategy (ie. not No-Fold-Em)If you are there say "HI" and we can get a drink after the play is over that is!!
Any and all replies are appreciated,
Thanks Chris H.
The live action in the bingo hall at Binions is great no neet to shop around for a game all the action is there.
I may see you there. Check out the pic forum for my ugly mug.
what, pray tell, is the "pic forum"?
Hello all,
I have been playing and studing poker for approx a year, and have serious asperations of becoming semi-pro or pro. I have come across several articles discussing collusion cheating between professionals. Some articles by well known professionals have estimated 60% of all pros use collusion. UNFORTUNATELY, none of these atricles discusses how to defend against collusion. My questions to the 2+2 ers are 1: what are your opinions on the current amount of collusion going on in cardroom and/or casinos. 2: are there any books or keys to idenifing and defending against collusion. This is a major concern of mine, and the only book reference i have come across regarding cheating is a book called Neocheating. Any comments or advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks
"Some articles by well known professionals have estimated 60% of all pros use collusion."
This is silly, as everyone knows it's only 23%.
I suspect that this made-up statistic actually illustrates the author's belief in how difficult it is to make a living at poker simply by virtue of superior skill. What he's really saying, in other words, is that making a living at poker is so difficult that most "professionals" have to break the rules in order to survive. I suspect that he'd also be guessing if he simply had said "most." I also suspect he's including non-casino poker as well. (For some reason, this sounds like Caro, and my apologies to him if I'm wrong).
I would be very suprised to learn that a significant number of casino poker professionals resort to collusion. There aren't that many of them, and I would think that they command too much attention to get away with it. They also tend to be known by other professionals, who are sharp enough to spot collusion and have a self-interest in getting rid of it. It just doesn't make sense.
To answer your question, if you play at a professional level you will probably be observant enough to notice potential collusion, in which case you should leave the game and report it if you're sure. Collusion might put a dent in your earnings but it won't be a major impediment to winning. There are plenty more of those.
I think at any limit under $100-$200 you'd be hard-pressed to find any collusion, and any that you may stumble upon will not be very useful to the involved parties, in fact, often times it is probably detrimental to them, as they worry about what each other has instead of worrying about the rest of the table.
In the high limit games (i.e. above 100-200) there is some that goes on that I've noticed, and even more accusations of such behavior. You can, however, use it to your advantage by knowing who is playing who soft, who will try to jam with who, etc. Much of what I noticed is 2 "friends" playing soft when heads up. This is not necessarily bad for the game, what it does is force one to call once the other has called in hopes that it'll end up heads up between the two. If you realize that this is going on it's easy to take advantage of.
Thank you for your responses, chris the 60% was a Caro article, and although it was an estimate, having only played in home games and only about 10-20 times in a casino enviorment it had me a little worried that aspiring to be a good player would be a fruitless effort because of collusion. Your resonses are re-asuring. I did encounter two buddies who were taking it soft when heads up, but they were also raising and reraising to get it heads up, then cheking from fifth street on. I left the table shortly as both played pretty well and i could not rule out these guys also colluding. Another main reason i left was the dealer knew these two and didn't say anything when one guy anted for the other.
George is right. By the time you get to the upper limit games where this could be a problem, you'll be able to spot it.
If you liked Neocheating, check out Poker:A Gauranteed Income For Life by the same author.
Brett
Brett I'D like to know if Neocheating and this other pook are quality books or are they just bs.
Well, they're fun bs :o). I've often thought Mike Caro patterned himself after John Finn, the protagonist in Poker: A Gauranteed Income For Life.
Brett
Neo cheating is total crap. His book is outdated passe that MIGHT have worked in a selected home game or two but is totally worthless in todays casino play. The author himself is a totally paranoid schitzophrenic.
Cheating and collusion do exist and I have to deal with it every day. Soft playing IS a big problem and it exists with regularity in the 10-20 to 40-80 games.
Heres a tip: I've been playing professionally for many, many years. I have no money to speak of, no assets, very little in the way of wealth. All I'm capable of doing is paying my bills and saving a little bit of money. The games are getting tougher and tougher and anyone thinking of taking up this game had better seriously think of learning a real profession. Anyone with the talent to succeed at poker can make three times that doing something else.
There are very, very few Ray Zee, Chip Reese, Doyle Brunson and David Sklansky's in the world.
This is the toughest way to make an easy living you will ever encounter.
Just about any 10-20 game, there's the usual bunch slouched around the table, wearing the mandatory insouciant, bored expressions. At least five--more likely seven--of these players spend more time at the cardroom than any other single place. They don't really play poker with each other--they just pretend to. What they are waiting for is some tourist/sucker/drunk/idiot to wander into their game so they can devour him, like a pack of hyenas going after a wounded gazelle. So what happens when the prey sits down? Why, these former zombies come to life! They start a'bettin', and a'raisin' and they put on the Ritz for our new victim; it suddenly looks like an action game, but if you watch carefully you'll notice: all the regulars are actually taking turns tearing a chunk of flesh out of the sucker's hide, in an orderly fashion. The victim's body parts---er, bankroll-- will eventually be distributed equitably, the sucker, broke, will leave, and the table will zombify once more. This, of course, amounts to collusion--and it happens every hour of every day, in every casino and cardroom.
there is very little orchestrated collusion going on in the main public casino poker rooms. i cannot speak for little rooms but what i have seen there is none to speak of. the collusion of soft playing with friends is not really collusion and doesnt cost a player money. it happens some but it almost always is between bad players and does not involve a loss to an experienced person or probably any other. what would count anyway was whether the combined group of so called colluders won or lost money to the game. but so little goes on one can play without fear. its been said it goes on more in the big games but that is just not true. it may appear to be happenning because most big games all the players know each other and their habits and make very extraordinary plays at times to capitalize on them and an onlooker or new player may get false impressions easily. put me in a game where many players soft play and i and most any decent player will kill the game by using any play they make that is not optimum to my advantage. all the games ive played where players soft play, split pots , run out the cards without betting when just friends are left, are the best and easiest games to win at. almost no pros will be cheating or attempting to cheat as your reputation follows you all your life in poker. those that have are well known when allowed to play, and are almost always broke.
That's what I was saying when I said there was "collusion" in the bigger games, that most of what goes on that he was curious about was friends slowplaying each other. If I find this in a game, it makes it significantly easier to play against those people in particular, besides the fact that alot of times the players that play this way are often the worse players in the game.
For those who don't know, and you have to be pretty new to poker not to know this, Ray Zee is not only one of the most successful players of all times, but he is recognized by his peers as being one of the most knowledgeable on both strategy and other aspects of the game. His opinion should be taken very seriously by those of you who have questions and/or were concerned about this subject.
there is very little orchestrated collusion going on in the main public casino poker rooms.
What is the best way to detect collusion?
- Andrew
"What is the best way to detect collusion? "
Check to see if the rabbit dies!
Vince.
Don't you hate killing rabbits just to see if your the father?
My coach has been in the hospital this week suffering from pneumonia. I once again read the little poem that he wrote for my at the end of 1998. The reason that he wrote the poem for me at that time is we talked a lot about luck and rake. I always complained to him (not anymore) at that time how hard it is to beat the luck and rake. Here is the poem:
When you play very well, but the cards are bad, you may get angry, but you should not be sad.
When you don't play well, but the cards are good, you may win some, but not as much as you should.
When you play your best, and the cards run true, the other players chips will belong to you.
I don't know how many times the last sentense automatic came to my mind when I struggled on the table. Thanks to my coach, and I wish him recover soon.
regards,
jikun
Hey I watched a bigraphy tonite of Angie Dickenson. Was she hot or what. She played a female poker player in a movie in the early sixties. Anyone remeber the name of the movie? Me neither and I watched the biography were they mentioned the movie. Anyway during the interview Angie, wow was she hot or what, I said that already, she admitted to being a poker player. Just like you and me! Wow is (was) she hot or what. When I was a kid I would have given my left tenticle (what you think I'd give up one of my balls, forget it) or something as valuable to just hold her one time. Man she was hot! Ask Frank Sinatra, JFK (she said he never got...) or Burt Bacharach. Were they lucky guys or what? But now that I am older and that sex thing is not as motivational as when I was a young boy I get pleasure from my hand, err.. no I mean from other things that women do. God she was hot! But she's even hotter now! She's almost 70, seventy, yes seventy and she is still physically attractive. But more than that, much more than that, much, much more than that she plays poker! And you guys thpught I liked "Lady Gambler" because of those 36,24,36 measurements. Sure that's true but she plays poker too! Wow are they hot or what?
Vince.
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/9766/dickins.html
tis will keep ya buzzy laddy happy st paddy's day my bucko
from lil leprechon
Happy St. Patrick's Day Vince.....
My God, L.G.! I love Y-O-U!
Vince.
Vince dear,
Now, do you think Angie looks better than me?
Lady Gambler..
Try again...
Dinner anyone?
Vince.
L.G. You look good enough to... Sorry Angie!
Vince (L.G. lover).
Lady Gambler:
I know how you feel. Do you think I should delete Vince's post?
Mason,
Oh no!!! Only when he says the "P" word.
LG
Lady Gambler,
Mona Lisa,
Lady Gambler,
Mona Lisa,
What is it that confuses me so,
Perhaps the curve of the lips
The smile that's not a smile
Maybe the eyes
That somehow tell all
Or could it be
That beauty brings to mind
Beauty!
Vince.
Post deleted at author's request.
Lucky Jail cell. That's all I can say!
vince
How can you expect a gal to fall for you when you can't even say her name right?!
Shape up, man.
[I'm 100% with you on this one particular item. They sure don't make'em like that anymore. I mean, just compare with the stupid pic posted by "Lady" Gambler: all pose and no substance.]
I found this link in Gary's web page. Can some one enlight me on the author and the book? Also, why does gary make a comment about the author "going nuts"?
Thanks
Sme
http://garycarson.home.mindspring.com
This book is about how to beat the old Gardena-style draw poker games (of which there are none remaining) and how to make money out of a home game that contains a healthy supply of totally gullible idiots, using every trick, gaff, scam, etc. just stopping short of outright cheating; employing the morals of a goat. In short, a useless book, and one that makes you want to take a shower after reading it.
It's probably been a running joke ever since it came out (and sold by mail I think) in the late 60's. Among other faults, it doesn't say anything about how to play well, discusses the conventional way about looking at pot size as if it was revealing a secret forumla, and generally echoes a certain smug misanthropy favored by some of the more primitive elements in the poker world. Imagine reading a book about poker written by Ayn Rand.
Sme,
Despite what the other posters have said, the book is very good. There *are* significant problems with it, but as I remember it, it is definitly worth the price (FREE). I think it makes a very good first poker book, and I think it makes an even better book to read after you've digested quite a bit of the strategy and tactics.
This book ranks so HIGH in my estimation because it deals with much more than just the tactics of the game (see HEFAP) or the theory (see TOP). I'm sure at some point someone is going to write a better book on being a complete player, but even the newer books out there (Larry Phillips Zen Of Poker, and Gary Carson's The Complete Book of Hold 'Em Poker) don't tackle as many of the issues of the meta-game of poker as Wallace's opus. Just reading the table of contents will make you aware just how much there is to poker that isn't covered in most books, e.g. taxes, credit, cheating, player exploitation, keeping records, and hypnosis (!?!).
The Wallace book is a must read. Not because it will teach you how to become the best poker player in the world. Rather, because it will make you aware of so many things you need to be aware of to play smart poker.
- Andrew
This was the first book I ever had, so I have a soft spot for it, even tho CW hates it. The notions of record-keeping, opponent tracking etc are excellent if you've never thought or heard of them. If you're an experienced player, tho, trying to leverage your game from beating 10-20 to 20-40, then I'll concede this book is worthless.
JG
I read this book about 12 years ago, and what impressed me most was just how forgettable it seemed. My overall impression was that it was just written to sell (by someone who had been playing in a very soft home game). About the only specific advice I recall had to do with making sure that your opponents were hungry, then tossing a ham sandwich into the pot for the winner. The Macchiavellian concept here was that your hungry opponents would chase more than they should in an effort to win this particular pot. Now maybe it was a submarine sandwich instead of a ham sandwich, but that about sums up the book to the best of my recollection. In fact, I wonder if anyone has tried this at a WSOP final table?! By then surely your opponents would be hungry and highly susceptible, although I suppose some Chateaubriand might be more effective and well worth the investment. Should this be allowed or not? YOU MAKE THE CALL...
How about if a player feigned a tick at the final table of the WSOP a la John Finn?
Brett
I am not familiar with the incident you mention, Brett. What is a tick anyway?
The going nuts thing refers to the fact that Wallace's later book, "Neocheating," is so completely rife with paranoia that it's pretty obvious the author is delusional. Read a bit of "Neocheating," on the same web page as "Poker: A Guaranteed Income..." and you'll see what I'm talking about. Supposedly there are mystics and psychics who use their powers to cheat people at cards, in business, etc. His paranoia can be seen in "Poker: A Guaranteed Income..." in the sections at the end in which John Finn spends a few days in public cardrooms and experiences cheating/collusion in every single one. I understand that when the book was written, cheating may have been somewhat common, but in EVERY cardroom in EVERY game?
That aside, I agree with Andrew and Gary and think "Poker: A Guaranteed Income..." is a good book, and definitely worth reading since it's available free on the web. While the examples given are rather contrived, it'll get you thinking about the meta-game in ways that the other books that deal with mathematical strategy and tactics don't touch upon.
-Sean
Actually, I believe his most paranoid book is called AN OBITUARY FOR THE PUBLIC PROFESIONAL POKER PLAYER. It is only 32 pages in length and argues that because of the publication of Doyle's HOW I MADE OVER $1,000,000 PLAYING POKER -- now known as SUPER/SYSTEM -- that public poker will be killed off.
If you have never seen it the cover has a picture of Frank Wallace on it with a bag over his head, so you will never know who he really is. By the way, I understand that Frank Wallace is not his real name. I've been told what it is, but I don't remember.
By the way, I understand that Frank Wallace is not his real name. I've been told what it is, but I don't remember.
Hmmm, after going to their website and noticing that they use the the same discussion software with the same advertsing policies one can only conclude that Frank Wallace is indeed MASON MALMUTH!!!
just kidding,
:)
- Andrew
He actually did appear, no bag, on the old Tom Snyder show over 20 years ago.
His only advice was to fold three of a kind before the Draw in five card Draw.
Or something like that.
His reason was because it was obvious, to him, that the deck was stacked and he was being cheated.
Wow, this is the kind of tidbit that makes all this time on the Internet worth something. I love to cruise used bookstores for old books on chess, math and games. Now I got another one for my list. Seriously.
JG
And now that I'm so deep in the thread that no one's reading, I'll share some more completely useless stuff. About 6 years ago, a friend and I spent a week in Vegas. As spending time in Vegas was nothing new, we decided to make it a theme week. So for one week we lived the theme:
"What would Frank R Wallace do here?"
First time I saw a WWJD bumper sticker, I thought of getting a press and publing my own WWFRWD stickers.
Really. Well I better get back to work here.
His paranoia can be seen in "Poker: A Guaranteed Income..." in the sections at the end in which John Finn spends a few days in public cardrooms and experiences cheating/collusion in every single one.
Maybe this book should be required reading for those who play online.
:)
- Andrew
This happened just an hour ago, and I took an eaily off. I was head up with the player on my right, who is a regular in my game, after the river card was dealt, he said he had a K and turned his hand over, I turned my head away from his cards and bet my nuts and he called. I won the pot and he said "take that $12 and save them in the bank". I said:"just play your hand". He did this to his friend, never to me, neither did I to him. We play with him many times and always friendly to each other, and I believe he must have a lot of money to loose.
My question is: what should I say? Should the dealer stop him showing his cards at that moment? Should I have checked against such a daily player? Thanks in advance for your advice.
regards,
jikun
if you think he did it to get a free showdown you must bet. if it was an honest mistake you can still bet but it may pay to show it down especially if his hand wont call your bet. but its his mistake and why should you give away a bet. if he didnt call id probably show him i had him beat if i wanted to stay on his good side. to cool it over you can always say something like i owe you a free look and then show him your hand sometime when he doesnt call. or even say dont call as i know your hand and wouldnt bet without being able to beat it. that wont stop him from calling and then he can only be mad at himself. but it doesnt matter as you are playing to win and need to capitalize on your good hands.
What you said makes a lot of sense to me though it may be a simple one for you. Thank you, Ray. If I knew what to say when I made the bet, as you suggested, I believe the situation can be a lot better. Just another lesson learned.
regards,
jikun
Do EXACTLY what you were going to do if he hadn't shown you his card(s), which in this case, since you had the nuts, is bet.
If the exposed K makes you change your mind then do so. You are entitled to the information from exposed cards.
His exposing the card is a mild angle shot since he may intend to play on your reaction; for instance, there is a K on the board, but he has a weak kicker, your willingness to bet into him anyway would tend to indicate that you have a better hand than top pair/no kicker; he therefore has information that he would not have had had he kept his cards boxed (presuming he trades on your reactions). I feel you have no ethical obligations to do or fail to do anything unusual.
As far as what to say, I would have asked him if I'm supposed to check the nuts just because he exposed a card. If that didn't work I would also point out to him that if exposing a card got me to alter my play then he (and others) would do it against me constantly. I don't want that to happen.
I never feel comfortable when facing such a situation. It happens often enough when you try to be nice to your apponents. Somehow I always end up on your end of the stick. In my understanding he is taking a shot at you. What can you do? I say bet and loose a friend.
I had a friendly apponent like that this weekend try to hustle me to pay for his food (which he was only thinking of ordering) after he lost the pot to me. When he first raised trying to steal the game was on. When he got caught stealing he asked me why I was betting against him and not checking it down. Then when he lost he said pay for my food. I told him straight up that I was not going to pay for his food and that was the end of it.
This is part of the reason why I think most top players quietly just watch the action. If you don't get involved chances are you'll stay on everybody's good side for much much much longer than you would have otherwise.
Spent 3 days in my old birthplace, Atl. City, NJ. It ain't a bad place if you know where to go and how to stay out of trouble. The summers there are wonderful, but 28 degrees and a 30 mph wind out of the northeast this weekend makes for a cold experience.
Poker is alive and well at the Taj and Tropicana. Non-smoking policy at the Taj has created some changes. Taj has or soon will institute the 3rd man out rule. That means after 2 people get up to leave the table, the next one to leave will be picked up unless one of the other 2 come back. The reason is due to the smokers who leave every 15-30 minutes to toke up and get the nicotine running through their veins.
Trop continues to have daily tournaments which attracts some 150 people at times. Nice crowd and excellent dealers for the most part. Nice loose weekend
Good Show Ratso! Like that report! Keep it up.
vince.
Can anyone tell me where to find good low-limit holdem on a Thursday night or Sunday afternoon in St Louis?
Do boats board on the hour? Is it wise to call ahead to reserve a spot?
I'd appreciate any help you can give me.
Thanks!
All of the riverboats in Missouri have open boarding now, so you can get on anytime. However, since open boarding has been instituted, they no longer allow you to call ahead and put your name on the board for a game.
As far as where to play, I've only played at the President's by the Arch, on the weekend. They do usually have a low limit ($4-$8 or $6-$12) hold'em game on Sunday. I don't know about other times.
The President's has a web page where you can learn more about their poker room, if you like.
Thanks, Bruce! The open boarding sounds like quite an improvement.
Anyone have info on other boats?
The following petition with 359 signatures gathered from amongst the regular players was submitted to Kathy Raymond, Foxwoods Poker Room Manager, last Thursday. The signatures were easy to gather, and given time, many more could have been obtained, but we felt the timing was right to go ahead and submit the petition as it is now.
PETITION FOR SMOKE-FREE CARDROOM
We the undersigned request that the entire Foxwoods Poker Room be designated a smoke-free area. We feel that both patrons and employees should NOT be subjected to the harmful and dangerous effects of secondhand smoke. Noting the outstanding success of major cardrooms across the country in implementing such a policy, we feel that NOW is the time to act to protect both patrons and employees. We also note that smokers are in the minority and that most people find secondhand smoke irritating and distasteful. We urge your positive action on this matter immediately. Thank you very much.
I am interested in purchasing poker chips for home use, but I have no idea where to begin. I want to use medium to high quality chips, which I suppose narrows it down to clay chips, but I am not sure.
I have been to a lot of online poker chip distribution sites, and it is nearly impossible to determine the relative chip quality of the distributors.
What should I look for? Does anybody who has purchased chips online (or otherwise) have any positive or negative experiences they can share? Any advice would be appreciated.
------------------
I would probably be buying 500 chips (100 black, 150 green, 250 red), any possibly a carrying case.
Check out pokerchips.com. I ordered my chips from there and their service and quality was outstanding. Customer graphic inlays and choice of colors/spot colors. Only negative is the lack of choice in spot patterns, but otherwise I was extremely pleased.
Let me know if you have any questions...
Matthew,
I would recomend buying 1000 chips (100 black, 200 green, 300 red, 400 blue), and a carrying case.
pokerchips.com as already suggested located in Maine very nice people.
paul
I bought mine from www.thegamesaloon.com. I think their 9 gram chips are much cheaper than pokerchips.com. Also very nice people, and they threw in a few decks of cards for free without even telling me they were going to. I recommend them 100%.
I have bought good quality chips from Paul sons at 800-528-5766. They are located in Las Vegas.
I Recommend pokerchips.com. I did alot of research before I ordered and found them to have the best prices and selection. Ask them to send you a sample chip to check out.
//Jay
I'm planning a summer vacation to Sandiego,want to combine Poker and the Beach. Will be flying in and relying on public transportaion.Anyone have experience with the Oceanside area? Would like to play at Oceans 11 (6-12 Holdem).Any suggestions on where to stay,and the game conditions would be appreciated.
Nice place,nice people,I don't know they have 6-12 or not but they have 9-18 which looks easy to me,I think they take 3 dollars from button. If you play higher they have 20-40 game with rich people comes to gamble and post live straddle,Jerry Buss plays there sometimes.
MS,
This is a well run medium size room with good food and lots of space between tables (a pet peeve of mine). John Feeney of 2+2 fame usually plays the big game (40/80 holdem) on Thursday nights. For reasonable rooms right across the parking lot, call the club. They can set you up at the Super 8 for about $45 per night. I would avoid the Ramada across the street as it seemed sub par when I was there.
Regards,
Rick
Hmm, I see from Rick's post that I may have those two motels reversed in terms of quality. Go with the close one I guess.
John,
The Super 8 has small rooms but is well kept. The room at the Ramada (I think it was a Ramada) looked like it has been torn apart by Marines blowing off steam before being sent to Bosnia.
I do agree that Carlsbad is very nice and only a five minute drive to the club but the places close to the water are expensive.
Regards,
Rick
I stay in a Carlsbad resort spa near the airport when I play in O11 but there are a couple if not so great places to stay with in a block or 2 of the casino.
What is it about SOCAL where they put csainos in the seediest worst neighborhoods you can find.
BTW O11 is a nice casino well run and the tournaments are professionally run too.
Rounder asked: >What is it about SOCAL where they put csainos in the >seediest worst neighborhoods you can find.
This is merely a guess.
The law in California lets each city decide for itself whether or not to allow poker clubs to operate. Many people do not want poker clubs in their neighborhoods, and would fight it if the city tried to legalize one for the first time. However, if a town is poor and needs the revenue badly, it will probably have a much easier time letting the poker club start up business. Generally speaking, the towns that need revenue also contain the seediest and worst neighborhoods.
Even within a big city like San Diego that has both nice neighborhoods and seedy neighborhoods, the richer folks in the nicer neighborhoods generally will do a better job of not allowing any business they don't like to set up shop in their neighborhood. Even if a city says poker is legal, each club still needs licenses and zoning issues dealt with. Richer people will make it harder to win on these secondary issues. So, it's often easier to set up shop in a poorer neighborhood.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
O-11 is probably your best bet, but as others have said the game will either be 4-8 or 9-18. I'm sure there are decent hotels in Oceanside, but I don't know them off hand. The one right next to the casino looks "questionable" but maybe okay if you're not particular. Another, about a 3 minute walk away, looks fine, but basic, on busy Mission Ave. (Sorry, I don't know the name. The cardroom could tell you.) Not a real family place, but probably fine for a guy alone if where you stay is not too important to you.
An alternative, if you don't mind little "mom & pop" cardrooms in just slightly worse neighborhoods than Oceanside (itself a slightly iffy neighborhood) could be the Village Club in Chula Vista. It's also right near the beach (though I don't know how the beach is there), and there are decent Motels very near the I-5 and E-Street exit which are right near the beach and about a 3 min. drive from the cardroom. They have a good 8-16 game. I think most players would probably prefer O-11. (O-11 is about 16 or so tables, plus Asian games etc. On rare occasion Rick Nebiolo and his student of 2+2 fame have been known to show up to take some money out of the games. Village Club is 8 tables, with 8-handed games. A guy named Zee played there once.)
If it weren't for the public transportation thing, I'd recommend staying someplace like Carlsbad as I think Rounder mentioned.
Interested in learing the origin of the poker term "Broadway" for an ace high straight.
Thanks,
Lance
A "Broadway" refers to the Queen in the middle. She is the median strip of the straight. She is the double yellow lines of the road. Slang: "The Bitch In The Middle". So next time your looking for a "Wench" to fill your "Broadway" to win the hand "DROP INSTEAD AND SAVE SOME BREAD FOR THE BITCH IS DEAD"
iM hEnRy ViIi I aM
I believe Broadway in New York runs fron Tenth to First Avenues (10-A).
while i don't know ny as well as i should, i don't think broadway crosses 10th (is there a 10th?) or 9th or maybe even 8th. and it may not get all the way over to first. i don't think this is the origin.
scott
Broadway does run from E 1st street to E 10th street.
When you're up in the 200th street area, you actually have to walk EAST from Broadway to get to 10th Ave. Broadway effectively becomes 11th Ave in this area.
for what it's worth, shooter
I always figured it had to do with Broadway being where you were able to see the top stars (cards).
Eric
>>Posted By: Anon
Good citizens pay taxes and we all know that. Correct me if I am wrong but I think the problem is how can we pay taxes on income we cannot declare when nobody, let alone the casinos, issue us a 1099G as proof of income. Casinos do not keep track of winnings on live table games with the exception of jackpot hands. On second thought, the casinos do issue 1099G on any winnings (in excess of $600 after the initial buy-in has been taken out) on jackpot hands, tournament plays and horse betting etc.
However, if we declare our main occupation as "Professional Gambler", we can declare our gambling winnings as income without showing any burden of proof (1099G) to the IRS. <<
Posted By: Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
>>Trust me.
If you tell the IRS you won $20,000 last year playing poker, they will gladly accept the taxes on that income, even if you have no proof to back up your claim. <<
Posted By: Anon
>>I trust you and I know the IRS will accept any gambling income I declare but will they also accept any associated expenses?
Will this not open a BIG invitation for the IRS to audit me? <<
Simply put, it all depends.
If you file as a regular person, your wins all go into your gross income, and your losses (to the extent they do not exceed your wins) may be entered as itemized deductions. I've filed like this for quite a few years now, and have never been audited. I do not submit any records of any sort when I file, though I keep those records available at home for a few years in case I am audited.
If you file as a professional gambler, you need to use special forms that everyone who runs their own unincorporated business must use. These forms allow you to consider wins as income, and losses AND EXPENSES as business expenses. You then are only going to put your total profit onto your 1040 (along with income from other sources). When you file as a professional, theses are the advantages. The disadvantages include having to pay self-employment taxes. I'm only just looking into the full details on this, as I'm seriously considering filing as a professional for 1999. Because you can't deduct anything in CT, I think paying these extra taxes will be cheaper than paying 4.5% of my total wins to CT.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I've been doing the exact same thing for many years and have never been audited, but am armed and ready if I am. I know people who have filed as pro gamblers who have been odded. One veteran says that during the audit, you can take all your receipts and throw them in the trash; either they believe you or they don't believe you, and the preponderance of evidence that allows them to make that assertion does not come from casino paperwork.
JG
"odded" = audited; Something is wrong with my brain this week; I went to war with a pair of tens last night in a NL tourney. It must all be some kind of cry for help. Well, I better get back to putting software on airplanes.
JG
Greg,
Thank you for your input on the subject.
Currently, I have a full time job but I also intend to file a Schedule C for my gambling activities which falls under the '713200' professional activity code. This will be my first time to file, in addition to my full time job, my second job as a part-time professional gambler. I have spent more than 1000 hours on poker play during the year and I have been logging down my winnings and/or losses per session. Based on my record, I was ahead by $5,000 on gross winnings during the year. By filing a Schedule C, I would be able to offset all my winnings when I deduct all expenses related to gambling. Now, supposing my gambling expenses exceed my gambling winnings, then my filing as a part-time professional gambler will benefit me tremenduously taxwise. First, I will not have to pay any self employment tax since I will be filing a loss, second, I can file 100% of my net loss on Form 1040 which will reduce my adjusted gross income as well. Filing a Schedule C as a part-time professional gambler is definitely more advantageous than filing gambling winnings being offset 100% by gambling losses under the Miscellaneous section of the Schedule A of 1040.
Is this possible? Are there any loopholes I am not aware of? I will soon be filing my income tax return for 1999 and I would like to ask for help from anyone who might enlighten me further.
You may be 100% within the written laws if you file a schedule C and end up losing money as a result of expenses, and then applying that loss to offset other forms of income. HOWEVER ...
If you lose money at poker (as you will if I read your post correctly, you won at the game itself but lost after factoring in expenses), you will risk not being allowed to file as a professional at all. I mean, being a professional means doing something with an expectation of earning a profit. If you lose money, how do we know you're really a professional, and not just some amateur hobbyist trying to save himself some taxes, right?
As a first time filer of the schedule C, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they disallowed it under these facts. If you had been doing this for years and this was your first losing year, then you would be much more likely to get away with it.
All of this is my semi-informed opinion, and could be completely wrong. For the best advice, talk to a tax professional who specializes in gamblers. There are those people who write a semi-regular article in CardPlayer, and they should be able to advise you. I suspect they have competitors as well, probably mostly in LV, Reno, and AC.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Post deleted at author's request.
Thanks, Badger.
Thanks, Greg. I will do more research on the subject to work out something to my advantage without causing any problem on my tax return.
However, I think you're mistaken on the IRS disallowing my profession as a pro if I file a loss on my Schedule C. To consider a profession as a hobby, I think a person has to show a loss for five consecutive years. As this is my first time to file and I have additional start-up costs to include such as section 179 expenses, and as long as my expenses are relative to my income or within the allowed limitation, there should be no basis for disqualification. Still to play it safe, I will listen to the advice of a tax specialist.
I must be missing something, so sorry for asking a stupid question, but Why do you want to report Gambling income to the IRS? Because its the right thing to do? How would the IRS ever know that you make money playing poker? I can imagine it might be tough to hide (launder if you will) alot of money. I often wonder what I'm going to do when my Bankroll gets to $25,000. Right now I have $5K in a shoebox, and with my regular job I feel like I pay enough taxes, thank you.
Why are you guys reporting anything to the IRS? I claim total ignorance in this area (Poker & Taxes), 'pleez splain'!
Grinder,
Because it's income, that's why. But if the income is more than offset by related expenses, then it's even better. (This works only to the benefit of anyone who needs a tax break from their other source of income and I think this applies to you too, but does not work to anyone filing their gambling winnings as their only source of income.) You don't need to worry anymore that the IRS might come swooping down on you for tax evasion because you did not file your winnings in your income tax return which you are supposed to do as a good citizen.
You can start expensing a lot of things like your laptop computer/printer for poker use (one time only), your car mileage and maintenance, your poker education and poker books, your poker trips to those wonderful places, business entertainment, the list just goes on.
I am still researching on the subject but if it is how I think it is, I will let you know.
Well, Grinder, in my case, in my regular job I'm an attorney. If I were to get caught lying on my tax return, I wouldn't just be subject to some monetary penalties by the IRS, I could also face disbarment by the state bar. Then, I'm out of a job. So, my risk is MUCH greater than most poker players.
Plus, for many people, there are ethical considerations as well. Lots of folks don't think it's right to knowingly violate the law. They may feel that if you don't agree with the law, get it changed, rather than violate it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
How the IRS will treat you as to the professional vs. hobbyist issue will be completely different when the activity is gambling instead of let's say painting.
I know people who do thinks like paint, sculpt, etc. They sell some stuff, but generally spend more on supplies and other expenses then they bring in from sales. However, as you indicate, these people might be allowed to file a schedule C on these "hobbies" for some period of years without being disallowed from filing as professionals.
With gambling as your "hobby", you simply will not be treated the same way. Gambling is just not considered a profession by the IRS without proof to the contrary, at least in many cases.
If you spend any money consulting with a tax professional, make sure it's one who is experienced in dealing with gamblers, not just the general public. There are differences.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
Thanks, Greg. You've helped me tremenduously and your help is greatly appreciated.
Not sure if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with Greg, but the IRS frowns on classifying hobby losses as a side job. In the absence of positive flow, the art hobbyists are probably not gonna be able to take the loss. I've seen this happen with tournament Scrabble players who win some money but have larger expenses. Unless you hit one of the big paydays, you can't do it. The key is they need to show a profit occasionally. (Since I usually have massive gambling paperwork anyway, I've taken a different path). And as far as poker goes, it's so to the n+1th degree for philosophical reasons of the code already stated.
And finally, anyone who thinks that they have x interpretation of the tax code that they're gonna sell an auditor is delusional.
And re finally, I'm not a paid tax preparer, tho I am a very informed payor. Seek professional help, or in the absence of such, hold yourself to the strictest measure of the code.
JG
Over at BJ21.Com, there was a long thread a few months ago involving a professional blackjack player who was screwed by the IRS. There was a court ruling that gambling activities are specifically treated differently by some statute because the government uses the tax code to discourage gambling as a professional activity.
I wish I could remember more details, but being a Canadian I didn't pay that much attention at the time. As I recall, it had something to do with a person not being able to offset winnings in one year from losses in another, so you can win $50,000 in year one, pay $15,000 in tax, then lose $50,000 in year two, and you're out $15,000.
If that's the case, then if you have an extraordinarily good year, you're going to be forced to pay far more tax than you should, or to lie on your tax forms.
Sorry I can't be more specific, but the posts involved include statutes and quotes from the actual case.
Dan,
You're correct, I don't think carryover losses applies to this situation. Thanks for your response.
nt
I am a professional gambler (or intend to be one) who would like to pay taxes on my winnings but at the same time, if I incur losses, I would also like to get the benefit of a tax break being provided to the other professions. I like to consider myself a good citizen who obeys the law but if the government is not fair to me and only accepts my winnings for the taxes it brings but will not allow me a tax break if I report my losses, I am in a predicament.
Why can’t the government be more lenient on the gambling profession? Why is the law structured to be strict when it comes to gambling? Doesn’t the government know that by imposing this restriction, it is forcing a lot of professional gamblers to hide their gambling winnings (even if they don’t want to) since to report their winnings could mean opening “Pandora’s Box” for them? No wonder a lot of professional gamblers are outside the system. If the government is more lenient and treat the gambling profession same as the other professions, then it could mean a win win situation both ways.
What can we, professional gamblers do about it? Should we just act like everything is okay when in reality we are ignoring the root of the problem? Should we think of ourselves as above the law and not pay our obligation to the government? No wonder the general public and the government frown upon us. They think of us professional gamblers, as dishonest people since most of us don’t file our tax return like the rest of the general public. Why don’t we do something to earn their respect? I don’t know but we should try and keep on trying until our profession is provided with equal treatment same as the rest.
The inability to carry your losses or average your income over several years is devastating. I imagine a poker player's income could fluctuate 10-30% from year to year, with occasional horrible years and occasional great years. The inability to average this out means your effective tax rate might be 5-10% higher than another person with an identical average income.
For some professional gamblers the situation is much worse. Blackjack Pros can make $100,000 one year and lose money the next. Sports bettors also have huge annual fluctuations.
Dan,
I see now why the government impose very strict rules on the gambling profession. They consider us very risky and too speculative.
Thanks for the insight, Dan.
They also don't want a loser who has a lucky year turning 'pro' and declaring gambling losses against his regular income for umpteen years.
If the IRS were to treat gamblers like everyone else, it would open the door to lots of loopholes. For instance, if I had a year where my regular job income was low or non-existant, I could declare myself a professional gambler, cough up some books that say I won X thousand this year (not enough to really pass the threshold into real taxes), and then I go get a job as a Doctor and start deducting my trips to Vegas as a business expense, with all losses suitably padded. The IRS just doesn't want to have to deal with that.
All of this talk about taxes is really making me ill. I haven't filed in 25 years. I feel GREAT about it too. The IRS is the most wasteful, overarching, bureaucratic organization on the face of the earth and is run primarily on fear.
The truth is I wouldn't mind paying my "fair share" if they charged a reasonable rate...like 10%. (Which I personally believe is more than PLENTY to run the country.)
What would happen if we all refused to pay the ridiculous percentages they demand on wages? Are they going to put us ALL in jail?
I can remember not too long ago, when we dumped some tea overboard because of taxes; nothing like we pay today. Not only do we pay. WE WILLINGLY GET IN LINE TO DO SO!
Paying taxes should be avoided as much as possible.
That is why I love a nice win - tax free. Yeah.
Post deleted at author's request.
I am so screwed on taxes this year W2g's and poker winnings are the least of my problems.
It used to be in the HTML source here that the poster would leave an IP footprint that we could nslookup and get a good guess on who they are. Now I can't seem to find it. How are we supposed to rat this guy out?
JG
For what it's worth, one tax professional says that one should never file one's tax return with the words "professional gambler" on there. All it does, he says, is cause the IRS to turn the entire rest of your life into a living hell, with audits and FBI agents and other nasty stuff. In any case, the IRS usually disallows professional gambler status anyway, and then you're going to wind up paying taxes plus penalties on the expenses you tried to deduct as a professional gambler.
-Abdul
For the person who supports himself on gambling wins,what other options are their? I have a friend who has made his living on VPkr for many yrs.he files unemployed,and lists some of his wins as gambling win. He has been audited twice with no problem.It gets him out of SE tax.I filed prof. Gambler last yr for 1st time,I quess it takes two yrs for them to review form,have'nt heard anything yet.
Start a consulting company. Declare your winnings, but not as gambling winnings. Declare it as consulting fees or something. Then you can deduct other business expenses as well.
Besides, being a professional gambler is a LOT easier if you have a supplementary income.
Is anyone here in this vast Void That Binds, i.e. internet, from Kansas City? I'm looking for a person, people, animals or minerals who play poker here. It would be nice to get together and discuss poker strategies with y'all. Lord knows I need all the help I can get. G'day
Dan
I play in Kansas City, but have not played in a live game in a while (due to work and life). I am still a beginner, so I don't know if I'm the guy you want to talk to.
On a different note, do you know of anyone that hosts a home game, or anyone that would be interested in playing in a home game? Some of the guys that I work with have been trying to get a regular game together, but can't seem to get it scheduled around everyone's busy schedule. There's never enough interested parties able to commit on a particular day. Let me know if anyone would be interested, and I can provide some details.
Liquid Swords
You're right. As a lowly beginner, I wouldn't dream of discussing strategy with you. After all, with my full five months Hold-'em experience, I'm simply on a higher plane of thinking than you.
To be serious, while I certainly would appreciate learning from someone more experienced, I welcome two beginners trying to gain knowledge from one another.
As far as home games go, I mainly play at the boats, but I wouldn't object to it.
Thanks
Dan
Has anyone been on Mike Caro's new poker forum run through Planet Poker? Any impressions? I was poking around it and didn't particularly like the format.
Jon I.
I have taken a quick look at it . The funny thing is that no one is ever in the chat rooms (because they are most likely here....lol) I just went through it quickly but felt it was pretty bland.
MJ
Greetings all, Looking for a home game in the Portland OR area. I want to play with some knowledgeable players, for "fun" stakes (.50-1; 1-2), who are willing to discuss hands, strategy, etc. i.e., the Things You Shouldn't Do in a Cardroom.
Thanks in advance, Tim
go to a local cardroom and play small stakes as they all talk about that stuff anyway. you aint gonna find knowledgeable players betting fifty cents.
I'm moving to LA in June specifically to play poker for 3 1/2 months but have no idea how to find an apartment there. Heck, I don't even know where a good place to live is that's close to the Bicycle Club and Commerce. Any suggestions or help would be appreciated.
Get a map,look for the ocean,try to live as close to the ocean as possible. It will be expensive,but a lot safer than living by the Poker rooms,which are in bad areas. As far as central location,and ocean,try Long Beach.
Robin,
Do check a map or look up one on Yahoo, Mapquest or Mapblast. You don't want to live close to the Bike or Commerce. Living close to the ocean is great, but it costs quite a bit more. On the other hand, there are many people who would take on roommates in that area (if you come look for the free beach area newspapers which have roommate adds).
The rental market is very tight with the booming economy. Most places want six month leases. You may want to look for those magazines one finds in the supermarket for rentals in your area. They have web sites that cover the nation for large apartment complexes. Also, a place like Oakwood Garden Apartments covers short term corporate rentals and you can get it furnished.
As for a safe, affordable, central location that will be within a thirty minute drive of all the clubs, try the better parts of Downey or Norwalk. Cerrittos is great but there are few rentals and it is pricey. In Orange County consider Cypress (right next to Hawaiian Gardens) or the west part of Anaheim.
Then of course there is the poker player Hilton, a.k.a. Crystal Park Casino Hotel. The location is great in terms of being at a midpoint between the other clubs and you can/must play there a little to get the cheap rate.
Email me if you have any questions.
Regards,
Rick
I recommend living in heaven: Hermosa Beach.
-Abdul
Thanks for your informative response. I did some looking on the internet and noticed that all the places wanted 6 month leases, as you said. I'm actually bringing a friend down for about a month so I will almost certainly want to get a 1 br. I noticed that the furnished "corporate suites" are pretty darn pricey so it is remotely possible that I'll just say screw it and move there for 6 months. College can wait I suppose (though my parents will flip!).
Call the Sea Sprite Motel in Hermosa Beach (area code 310), and ask them for their extended stay rates. Summer is their most expensive period, though the weather is not at its best then (often cold and foggy, occasionally very hot with no a/c - most places do not have a/c.) Be warned that it is a bit of a dump, but its location is the nuts, right on the Strand (beach "boardwalk") next to the area with all the disco sushi pick-up bars. Hundreds of nubile rollerblader girls will skate past your room every day. Nubile surfer girls will carry their boards past your room every day. Nubile jogger girls..., well you get the picture. Easy access (~15 minutes) to Hollywood Park casino. Make sure you get a parking space from the motel, because parking is in short supply in Hermosa Beach. For your friends, well, either get a suite or tell them to get their own room.
-Abdul
the manhattan hermosa beach areas are the best but tough to find anything, but very close to hp casino where the games are the easiest. next try downey for a saferer place close to the bike and commerce. stay at a motel for a few weeks to see if you can take it there first. but for only a couple of months why dont you ask rick nebiolo to put you up at his house. if he wont im sure john feeney would love to. just say paul feeney sent you.
My Buddy "Dangerous Dan", his gorgeous wife and I headed out to the Mohegan Indian Reservation thursday nigh to do battle. We were all ready to play in the thursday night $35 tournament. Every thursday the Mohegan Sun holds either a Holdem or Stud tournament. They alternate. On the last thursday of the month they hold a Mohegan Challenge $120 buy in tournament. Well, when I invited my Buddy Dangerous to go to hthe Mohegan Sun to play I was not aware that March has 5 thursdays, So let's see. Mohegan holds only four thursday tournaments a month. Hmm so they must not have one on of the thursdays in a five mthursday month. Oh, O yup the fourth thursday be da one!
Well, I really began feeling horrendus when the floor person filled us in on the particulars. You, see about a month ago Dangerous and I went to the Sun and we both got beat up pretty bad. No, you silly gooses, not physically. We got beat up on the poker table. Dangerous went as far as to say that he was done. No more poker. Maybe some tournaments but that was it. And here I go and ask him to go to the MH (that's Paul Feeney for Mohegan Sun, I do that mainly to piss off Zee. God, did I say "piss". Wow! That was close. If I had said Penis I would have to worry about Malmuth erecting my post I mean ejecting it or deleting it or something. Lucky, huh!) Anyway since there was no tournament us two Bobsy Twins put our names (together) on the 20-40 Stud and Holdem lists. I got a seat immediately. Dan a little while later. I played very good poker for about an hour and a half and was up about $200 when the game got tough and my name was callled for Holdem so even though I was playing very good I decided to move to Holdem. Of course the fact that Dangerous had watched the game for a while and reported back that there were many $800-1000 potd influenced my deciaion somewhat. Meanwhile, Dangerous stayed at the stud game and, hmmm, got beat up again. I keep telling him that I'm the stud player. He no listen.
To make a long story longer, Dangerous soon joined the Holdem Game. We played Holdem for, maybe, hmmm, I'd say,uh, hmmm, just about, say, may--b-e three hours. Give or take an hour or so. (I have another buddy that talks that way. Drives me crazy. Spit it out for cryin out loud.)
Remember I said played very good in the stud game. What? Who said so? I did. I am a very good stud player thank you very much. Besides I won didn't I. That's a pretty good indicator isn't it. Well, o.k lets say that I know my game and I played my game good. Holdem, now, was a very different story. Let me give you an example of my stellar play.
Position: UTG
Hand: A,Qo
Play: Raise.
Position 2 cold calls. Button cold calls. Blinds call.
Flop: Tc,9c,8h
Blinds check.
Me: Bet.
Position 2,: Raise.
Button and SB fold.
BB: Calls.
I call.
Turn Jc, Board Jc,Tc,9c,8h (I had the Ah,Qs, at least it was a black queen).
BB checks.
Me: Bet.
Position 2: fold.
BB: Raise!
I call! Now I rationalized this call with the fact that the BB was a very poor player. I'll get back to that later.
River: Qc - board Qc,Jc,Tc,9c,8h.
BB: Bet.
I think for a moment. Look at the pot and say o.k I'll pay you off and toss in my $40. Of couses hed had the Ac,5c, What, did you think I was going to win this hand. Give me a break. When I said this player was a poor player I should have added that he was poor and weak. He only bet when he had the nuts or close to it. I knew that and called the turn raise and river anyway. Hey that was one of my better plays. I played like that for most of the time at the table. Soon I was ahead $500. Dangerous, on the other hand, was playing pretty close to flawless Holdem. He was getting buried. He quit a half hour before me and went to eat. I should have left with him. I lost back most of my winnings finishing the night $300+.
On the way to the car Dangerous just shook his head. "WHAT!" I said. "How is it possible." he said. "I play perfect poker and lose a bundle and you, you win. I don't understand it." he bellowed. I held my hands out palms up, gazed into the starry night and shrugged my shoulders. We, then, got into the car and Terri, his wife, drove us home. Of course we listened to Sinatra CD's all the way home.
Vince.
Oh yeah, we also listend to some Beatles and a couple of Kingston Trio hits. Do any of you remember "Charlie on the MTA". "And through the open window she throws Charlie a sandwhich as the train comes rumbling through" Man, if there are any better lyrics in a song, I can't think of them!
Thanks for the interesting post. You didn't tell us, is dan quitting for good now?
Not Dan. He's like Charlie--he can't. Don't you think it's a scandal how he makes the people pay and pay???
Whoa, Vince. I really got caught up in your story. That was good! No, great. You must have been as smoked as I am now to write that piece. I found something called Kozel Pilsner beer. It is fine, enuf said
Vince,
"And here I go and ask him to go to the MH (that's Paul Feeney for Mohegan Sun, I do that mainly to piss off Zee."
If your going to use my name at least get the Abbrev. right. "MS Mohegan Sun". You can't yellow finger Z he has no conscious contact with humanity. BYAKT but you already knew that.
BTDTGTTS been there done that got the tee shirt "Wet for ukw"
See u on the 8th.
pablo
Hey Missa Pf (fo pAUL Feeney). Ben you gonna learn. Miss Vince is right all ob da tine. MH is short fo Mohegan Sun. dat's rite. Eben a 4 yar old nose it! You see it aptually stans fo Mo Hegan. Mo Hegan war a haf ItalIan, haf IrIsh an haf Indian born in 1806 in Conetibut, New England. Beein fum New England I taught you wood nose dat.
It seems dat Missa hegan was da leader ob a bunch ob nubists. You nose, Naked Peoples. Dey wood runs around da woods naked all da tine. Well da local sherriff put's dem alls in jail and toad dem dey had to put there clotheses on orr stay there. Now Mo Hegan wuz a pwetty fart smeller. He tells da sherrifff dat he was an InDian and da nubists was his twibe peoples. He said dey was da Mohegan Sun Worshipers. Well da sherriff believed him and sent dem out ob jail into the Connetibut, New England woods to live. Da sheriff news He didn't hab jurisprudence ober Indians.
One day while walkin around in da nude in da woods Mo found a Casino. It was jus sittin dere on da lake nextto Foxwoods. It was amazin cause it was empty an no one nose how it gots der all though the locals tink dat Stebe Wynne built it in a pwevious life. Anybay Mo named it Mohegan Sun Casino after da twibe he founded and all da sun worshipers put clotheses on and became dealers and billionaires. Now dat is what happened so don't eber tink Miss Vince is wong like you. He's da fartest mans dere is. And Dat's da truth! eben a 4 yar old knows dat!
Beginner!
As we speak.
ukw
Vince,
As usual, I enjoyed this snipet (except for the T, it's an anagram for "penis") of your merry existence. I've only been to MH once in the last year--and that was to see Mose Alison. Perhaps, though I'll try to go for a Thursday tourney; I'd enjoy seeing you in action.
Regards,
John
Here I am in AC chill'in at the seashore. Weather is not bad as long as the sun is out. It is the annual holiday for all the Internet geeks (RGP'ers) here the Tropicana. (Guess I am a geek too althought I am not with them). These dudes are really spending some money. The dealers love'em. Anyway, the action is really excellent. There were 2 pot limit holdem games last night. I saw a >4,000 dollar (real dollars) hand showdown between 2 players on the flop. I do not know the players, but one was a dude with a pony tail (hippie type) and the other a business type with a toupee. The hippie dude won of course (good always wins over evil, ya know). Good action. The place is full of good players. The action is the best I have seen all year. There are plenty of ring games and even some tournaments. Definitely worth the trip to the Trop this weekend.
I'll be here till Tuesday. More later.
More excellent daytime action. Great weather (but a bit windy). Lots of good players and lots of fish. Antique show (spectacular--and I don't even like shows much less antiques) has spawned a lot of fish with lots of dead presidents. The internet guys are really quite friendly (I just remembered the group is called "At Large" . They are having a nice time. The casino is making a bundle. More super action tonight. Hear they might run a 25/50 draw (rumor only) and a semi-closed Anaconda game (I really do not believe it, but hat is what I am told). Looking forward to the action.
The Trop has run draw games on rare occasion.
While at the poker table, I want to be able to get the latest sports lines, look up information that I currently carry around as 20 pieces of paper, place sports bets, get and reply to email, and listen to tunes. I want a cell phone, sports pager, PDA (information organizer) with the ability to store a hundred pages of text, and an MP3 player. Rather than buying and carrying around four pocket devices that would not all fit in my pockets, what could I get instead?
I'm considering the Nokia 9000il, which looks like just a cell phone, but then open it up and you have a full keyboard and big display and a 386 computer. It has a PDA, and it has a built-in web browser, or you can telnet and then use Lynx via a Unix shell account. I cannot tell how big the display is... looks like less than 80x25 characters, maybe 40x10. No MP3, of course.
If you think that's hot, that's nothing compared to the Samsung YOPY. It is a pocket computer, with 240x320 pixel 65536 color display, stereo MP3 player, graphical internet web browsing & email (you have to buy either a mobile phone or wireless modem), handwriting recognition, Linux operating system, and much more. It even has options for a digital camera and television. As far as I know, it's still vaporware, but it sounds like it will be available Very Soon Now.
Any other ideas?
-Abdul
There are lots of ideas. Any of the color/Stereo Windows CE boxes would work. You can buy a packet TCP/IP modem and have a live connection to the Internet whenever you want it. The connect speed will be 9600-19200 bps, and it'll cost you a pile of money if you use it alot, but it'll work.
There are some new technologies right around the corner that will make all this better and cheaper, but for now that's pretty much what you're stuck with.
If you just want sports lines, you can get those using your digital PCS cellphone. carry a Palm Pilot for your PDA, and a RIO for MP3 playback. This isn't as bulky as it sounds - you'd probably have your cellphone with you anyway, and the rio/palmpilot combination would be smaller than most of the single-device solutions. Tape 'em together if you must have one unit.
While at the poker table, I want to be able to get the latest sports lines, look up information that I currently carry around as 20 pieces of paper, place sports bets, get and reply to email, and listen to tunes. I want a cell phone, sports pager, PDA (information organizer) with the ability to store a hundred pages of text, and an MP3 player. Rather than buying and carrying around four pocket devices that would not all fit in my pockets, what could I get instead?
Why on earth would you want to do all that while your are playing poker. Play poker or don't. Do all that stuff at home and open a phone account for sports betting. Why drag all that crap with you to the card room? What's the point?
I figure in about 5 years or so you will be able to do what you want and then some.
Poker is boring, and sports betting sometimes involves waiting for a line and pouncing on it right away when it gets to the number you want. I could play a lot more poker and be a lot more successful at sports betting if I could do them simultaneously. I do not get in enough hours at poker currently.
What I'll probably wind up doing is setting up a wireless network so that I can use a couple of laptops out by the pool with connection speeds in the 500Kish realm... one with Windows and ParadisePoker for poker and one with Linux and Netscape and my own programs for sports betting. Of course, I wouldn't dare do that in the state of Nevada, where it would be very illegal. Okay with you, Mr. Thomas?
This would solve my problem with smokers, too, though I would prefer to live in California anyway.
-Abdul
You make a very good point. Over the years I have known several players who away from the table talked a great game. The problem was that when they played poker they didn't pay any attention. Their overall results were that they won, but only at a very small rate. None of them are currently regulars in the card rooms any more.
Your attention to detail to the hands in which you're not involved is one of your big strengths, and kudos for that.
At least one of the players you've mentioned (privately to me) as having the flaw of talking too much and not paying attention in the games disappeared from the Bellagio but is currently playing online a huge number of hours per day. Perhaps the players you thought had busted out have just moved into cyberspace.
My win rate is very healthy, and I unfortunately don't pay that much attention when I'm not in a hand, as I'm bored. Neither does David Sklansky, by the way, herr Malmuth.
Experience, a game theoretic playing style, and a tight game mitigate the benefits of watching every hand. Trying too hard to exploit flaws in your opponents' play can cause you to play poorly, q.v., "John Feeney's Hand."
And, for example, if I could be playing poker while I'm writing this message, I would be making more money than not playing poker while I'm writing this message, even if it did reduce my win rate slightly.
-Abdul
The other people I am thinking of you have never met. You need to remember that you are a relatively new player to these games, and I have been around for 20 years. It is only recently that poker has grown to the point that it is hard to keep track of the different players.
For instance, when I moved to Las Vegas there were three $10-$20 hold 'em games in town, and these three games were the only games that existed on a regular basis in public card rooms in the world at that limit. The $20-$40 game, which began at the Golden Nugget had not started yet. Now it is a lot different.
Trying too hard to exploit flaws in your opponents' play can cause you to play poorly, q.v., "John Feeney's Hand."
Heh, we can just go on discussing this hand while most people reading have no idea what we're talking about. Hey, why not? :) The mistake I made in that hand was that I did not *sufficiently* exploit flaws in my opponent's play. Checking to induce a bluff from that somewhat-too-aggressive opponent would probably have been the best play given the hands I could read him for. Your suggestion - betting to induce a bluff raise - while wrong, would also have been an instance of exploiting a flaw in the opponent's play (had he been the right opponent for it).
Exploiting flaws in your opponents' play is, in fact, generally more profitable than a "game theoretic playing style". I would guess that you are not generally facing tough enough opponents to need to resort to a game theoretic approach rather than adjusting to their weaknesses. And even when you are, you may be forgetting that they are human and subject to change and to deviate from their usual play. One must observe to take advantage of these things.
Again, every top player I know who is highly successful at the game has a tremendous power of observation. A few of them don't look like they are watching, but days later they can describe hands to you very accurately and in extreme detail.
One of the best examples of this is our own Ray Zee. If you ever get a chance to watch him play it will appear as if he is very relaxed and just socializing. But he is aware of virtually every thing that is going on. (In my early years I received many a lecture from Ray admonishing me to pay more attention, and, of course, he was right.)
If there is anyone else out there who thinks that they can just follow a game theory approach and be highly successful, in my opinion, they are just fooling themselves. You need to resort to game theory in those situations -- usually against expert players -- when your judgement begins to fail.
With this being said there are many games which a reasonably good player will beat on "automatic pilot." These are games in which your typical opponent is not very good -- usually at the lower limits. However, even in these games, by paying attention you will spot opportunities to do even better.
If there is anyone else out there who thinks that a game theoretic hold'em program would not absolutely destroy most players, then they are morons. If you don't believe me, then I will challenge you to play a simplified big spread limit hold'em game (no postflop action) and watch a game theoretic program beat the snot out of you...
Since no one actually knows the full game theory solution to hold'em, what I mean by "playing a game theoretic style" is to assume your opponent is a good player. Just playing good poker will get the money.
When a player is very bad, it will be obvious when and how you should deviate and collect the extra bucks by exploiting his mistakes. However, any such gains are likely to be short-lived if you are greedy about exploiting your opponent; if you are extreme, the fish will notice and adapt to fix his own flaw, and then if you do not quickly readapt back to playing good poker you will be the fish. So even when it is appropriate to deviate from basic strong poker, you have to be conservative in your deviation.
I say "play good poker."
-Abdul
I hope a lot of people read this post because you are addressing a topic that virtually everyone misunderstands. Specifically I'm thinking about playing heads-up as opposesd to a full ring game. Every now and then someone will disagree with certain ideas that I and others suggest and I find myself being challenged to a heads-up match so that they can prove how much better they play. I believe that Mike Caro was the last person to do this (on RGP). The problem is that heads-up poker, where these game theorectic ideas are so strong, is very different from full ring game poker. Furthermore, there are many concepts that are absolutely necessary for ring game play which seem far removed from the general ideas of game theory that most of us are familiar with.
With this being said, I do agree with you completely on the point that you have made above. A computer programmed to play excellent head-to-head hold 'em based on game theory ideas would have no trouble destroying its opponents no matter who they are, and this includes both you and me.
But when this thread began, it was about the idea of paying attention when at the poker table. Usually when people talk about being at the poker table they are referring to a full ring game since that is what most of us play most of the time. Now trying to use a complete game theory approach has to become extremely difficult.
So let me state again what I very strongly believe to be true.
1. The best and most successful players all pay close attention when they are sitting at the poker table. I do agree that some of them don't always appear to be paying close attention, but the reality is that they truly are.
2. Over the years, I have known several players who away from the table talked absolutely great games. That is they understood a particular form of poker at a level that most people only wish they could. However, they were only marginally successful at best, and I have always attributed this to the fact that they just never paid much attention to the immediate action going on.
Yes, there is no one optimal game theoretic strategy for a full table and multiway pots, thus I qualified that it must be a tight game, where you are involved primarily in heads up confrontations, where game theory is more or less intact:
"Experience, a game theoretic playing style, and a tight game mitigate the benefits of watching every hand."
Mason, I think you need to have a talk with David. While playing poker, he is constantly making other kinds of bets, walking over to other tables to talk to other players, chasing girls, and so on. He is clearly bored out of his mind and easily distracted. Maybe you can bring him into line and improve his win rate.
-Abdul
I have talked to David about playing poker. In fact, there is no doubt in my mind that that I have talked more to David about playing poker than anyone else by far.
What I have discovered in these conversations is that David can describe hands played weeks (or years) ago in extreme detail, and he can do the same with players that he only plays a short time with. Even though it doesn't look like it, I believe that David pays a lot of attention to the poker game that he is sitting in.
...David can describe hands played weeks (or years) ago in extreme detail...
Does this include hands he wasn't involved in?
- Andrew
Hands he wasn't involved in? He can describe plays that happened at whole tables he wasn't involved in!
He could be playing at Hollywood Park and know instantly when someone check-bluffed the river at the MGM. Now that takes concentration.
Dan
So Mason is saying that while David is over talking to me at the 30-60 table, David is paying close attention to what is going on at the 200-400 table where his chips sit, with his excellent peripheral x-ray zoom vision. And when David makes a mad dash into the race-sports book to place a bet between hands, Mason says that David can still describe in extreme detail months later the hand that went down while he was gone.
I hope it's clear that when I get cards, my total attention is on the poker table and on every tiny detail at the poker table. I choose to ignore a lot of that information, mind you, but I do watch for it. Once I fold, or go to the restroom and then have a few hands to wait, I believe in lower limit games my time would be better spent hitting a couple of buttons to make a sports bet rather than watching everything that goes on.
I don't deny that there is also a cost of taking attention away when I don't have a hand. But there is also an opportunity cost of paying attention to the poker table and not finding that "middle" on a sports bet.
When I'm playing games that strain my skill, like $100-$200 hold'em or $3-$6 lowball, I do try to pay attention when I don't have a hand. It's only when I can defeat my opponents easily with one hand tied behind my back that I think I could make better use of my time between hands.
-Abdul
..David is always flipping thru a $3-4K wad of 100s, turning them around so they're all facing the same way, and mumbling the serial numbers to himself.
Since you asked nicely Abdul I came to help you out and then find you all caught up in a poker discussion. But back to your original posting, I find a couple of things work best. First of all, keeping up on the latest moves is next to impossible to do in the way you are asking for unless you use one of the higher priced services such as SportSignal. I used to have the SportsNow pager which is about the most useful you can get when you are in Vegas, but it still isn't all that good for what you are describing. They just update the lines at certain intervals and you can then find a better number at times with it to bet a game on, but I don't think you will see any pure line reading advantages to it that you can't get from just walking over to the book at the Bellagio or calling up a phone account. As for betting games, well once again kinda useless because you will be using slow internet that will load up pages at snail's pace so you will just be better off getting a cell phone with lots of minutes and just consistently call up for update numbers, while getting a small computer mostly to do number crunching and the occasional bet online (if you choose to be a lawbreaker...) :) As for if this will increase your profits, well I don't know if I want to start any trouble on that, maybe you can tell us how it goes whenever you figure out what you will do.
And how come we never see you contribute on sports board anymore? Its like I have to be the one who does all the postings or at least is the conversation starter...
I don't think Abdul was referring to your play on the river in that particular hand, but rather to your strategy of trying to exploit the opponent (via check-raising) which almost backfired and almost resulted in an incorrect fold. You surely remember his game-theoretic-style advice of bet-bet-bet...
We probably all agree that succesfull exploiting is more profitable than bot-play, but don't you ever forget yourself and let your guard down for a second if you choose this dangerous path... You make yourself wide open with each greedy move.
When Enterprise is firing, even the Ferengis know her shields must be down...
---
I was referring to Sklansky's (and Zee's) recommendation of folding on the river given that Feeney had bet his top pair and gotten raised. (Feeney keeps trying to avoid this by taking back his bet and checking, but that is irrelevant to this discussion.) This is not a play that Sklansky normally recommends; he recommended it because he was trying to exploit the particular player. It backfired, as the player was in fact bluff-raising.
Sklansky thought the player thought that Feeney would not bluff because Feeney's image was "tight and unimaginative." Any LA 40-80 player who sees a "tight and unimaginative" sees a player who will lay down top pair, and hence it does not matter if he thinks the tight player never bluffs. The problem was not with Feeney's description of the hand but rather with Sklansky's understanding of this type of player.
So Sklansky's recommendation was bad poker against a good opponent and doubly bad poker against an LA 40-80 regular, in my opinion. However, it would have been brilliant and made a little extra expected value if Sklansky had read the opponent correctly. Instead it lost a ton of expected value.
If you want to deviate from good poker to exploit your opponent, you had better be reading your opponent perfectly, lest you become the fish.
-Abdul
Well, I don't need to speak for David, but as I review his first post about that hand, he was addressing how to play *going into the river* as a *two step process* - check and call or bet and fold… His guess that the player would not bluff was, I suspect, based not on my presumed image alone (which may or may not have actually been my image with this player), but on my image *combined* with the check-raise. A check-raise on the turn followed by a bet on the river *coming from* a "tight, unimaginative" player will (despite the flop having been checked through) likely be interpreted as a show of great strength, not as, say, a check-raise semi-bluff with a follow through bet on the river, and not as a play to be made simply with top pair.
I tried in that thread to point out that I may have overemphasized the "tight image" thing in an effort to make clear the thinking behind my turn play So my image may have been much less well defined in the eyes of that particular player. But since we can't be sure just how the guy really did see me, or know what he was thinking, we can only speculate. At any rate, David, made clear in a follow up post that he was talking about play on the river as a whole when he said:
…IF a bet on the end is CORRECT (as it would be in many situations) THEN a fold is also correct. If on the other hand this is a guy who will untypically raise bluff fairly frequently, but not ridiculously frequently, then the right play is almost certainly to merely check and call on the end.
That he initially had suggested that the first approach was probably the way to go seems to me not nearly as important as the little analysis above. Had I added, for instance, that I thought the guy may have been starting to tilt a bit (a possibility that came out later in the thread as I recall) the recommendation might have been different. It's not the specific recommendation that matters.
As for the call on the end, I do happen to think it was right, especially given the very small number of hands I could reasonably put the opponent on. (It was really an unusual situation in the very tiny number of non-bluffing hands he could hold given the board and his actions.) But would it have been right had he been thinking about me in exactly the way I implied he was when I talked about my image in the game? Well, it would have been closer for sure. Either way, I do think the decision going *into* the river is key.
BTW, it seems to me that you are too uniformly stereotyping LA 40-80 players. In my experience they vary all over the map, just about like players at any particular limit anywhere else. While it may be true that the games are a bit more aggressive there than in some other places, I don't think you can just prescribe play versus "an LA 40-80 regular" in general terms. Also, that game at the Bike was generally a tight game. Though there were aggressive players, there was no one in it, including my opp in that hand, as maniacal as the players you described in your post about the game at HP. I don't really think the guy in this hand was the "this type of player" that you refer to.
All that said, back to the original topic. Mason's right. You gotta pay attention. Sklansky just happens to have exceptional peripheral vision.
it is not about bankrolls, so maybe it doesn't. anyway, i've made the oppisite mistake before. wfm doesn't scare me. he's never gotten to post "this belongs on general theory," so this should be a treat. here goes nothing.
john wrote "As for the call on the end, I do happen to think it was right, especially given the very small number of hands I could reasonably put the opponent on. (It was really an unusual situation in the very tiny number of non-bluffing hands he could hold given the board and his actions.)"
this is really the key to the hand. john and i discussed this hand quite heavily via email, and i'd like to share an idea i have about bluffing and calling bluffs.
ideally, or rather game theoretically, when one is considering bluffing one considers the weighted average of all the hands that one might have played the way they way one did play that hand. then one determines what portion is worth a value bet against the weighted average of all the hands one's opp might have played the way he played the hand. then one randomly picks a particular number of other hands so that the pot odds work out.
i do not do this. i do not think that anyone does this.
most of my bluffs are, i guess, educated bluffs. what i mean is there is something about my image, or the hand's action, or maybe a tell. something makes me more sure than the pot odds that i will get a fold. something special about this situation in this particular hand says bluff.
but sometimes i make so to speak blind bluffs. sometimes nothing happens, but a bluff might still be possibly correct. and i want to talk about the thought processes that go into these.
maybe some of you go though the acrobatics above, but i still just guess at how likely the opp is to fold and bluff or not accordingly.
here's the point. when you are considering the chances that a player is bluffing, you have to take into account his tendancy to bluff without a hand in that situation.
here is what i mean. (i hope i remember john's hand correctly, but even if i don't the example will still serve.)
johns has KJ in the sb. 2 limpers, john calls. bb checks.
flop J53. straight possible. gets checked through.
turn 6. aggressive guy acting last bets. john raises. agg guy calls.
river pairs the 3.
i think a check call is right, but that's not what i want to talk about. a fold is wrong and here is why.
he would limp preflop with lots of hands, but not 42. this guy was called tight aggressive in a 40-80 game.
he would have bet any a pair on the flop. john told us that this player was aggressive enough to bet any pair with position. he might have a set.
after the turn is checked through he would any hand. and he would probably see the river with almost all of them.
the river may fill him or he may have T9 or something that has missed everything. what's more, out off all the limping hands that don't pair or hit sets, the number that hit sets is very small. i'd guess at 5%.
OK. HERE IS THE POINT. (i am sorry this has taken so long. it is in the orignal thread written in shorthand -- about 6 lines-- , but john thought i should post a full explanation after he got emailed one. hehehe. so here it is.)
this all means that if we play this hand over and over, he will be in a position to consider a river bluff 19 of 20 times. i contend that for this person in this situation, there is some probabilty p that represents his tendency to bluff. he will bluff p of the time he is in a position to do so.
what this means is that with 9-1 or so pot odds and the huge likelihood of john's hand being best before considering the river action. when you are deciding to call the important consideration is whether he would bluff once of 170 times he is in that situation without a hand.
what checking or betting the river really does is change his p. he is more likely to bluff when checked to than when bet to. what is fundamental to the person is THE CHANCES HE WILL BLUFF GIVEN HE IS IN A POSITION TO BLUFF. and that is what we should examine in play. not the chances he will bluff.
the reason the numbers are so high in this example is that john has tons of confidence going into the river. in more typical examples the numbers would be more like 1 in 30, and then a fold would be somtimes in order. some people do not bluff 1 in 30 opportunities.
but this tricky aggressive player bluffs here 1 in 170 opportunities, and a call is in order.
but a check call is probably more profitable.
scott
Abdul,
Things are moving _very_ quickly in this kind of area. It's hard to predict exactly what's going to come out, but in a year's time you will be able to do much more of what you want for less $$$. Although by then I'll still say the same thing (wow, just you wait, in a year's time ...)
Andy.
Thanks. I need a cell phone now, and I simply must have the YOPY handheld computer when it comes out around June. Which cell phone would you recommend given that I plan to plug this handheld computer into it? Do I need digital or analog? Do I go with a Sprint PCS phone or a Nokia GSM phone or other? Cissy at Bellagio says Sprint sucks for reception at Bellagio, while AT&T is not so sucky. What do you guys find works at Bellagio?
-Abdul
Check out the NP1000 and the Qualcomm PDQ, both Sprint PCS phones. They cost between $400 and $800. They both have internet access and organizers within them. The NP1000 has voice activated (not too useful at a loud casino), but is much smaller than the PDQ so it's easy to carry. The PDQ has a PDA inside the system and a much larger screen to work with. This sounds more along the lines of what you'll need, but is the more expensive of the two.
Dan
The NP1000 and Qualcomm PDQ would indeed be pretty good solutions if I were not going to get a YOPY. Maybe I should get a bottom of the line Sprint PCS phone. I just need something that the YOPY will like talking to, but I don't know enough about the current state of the art of cell phones to know which model would be best for that. It sounds like the second generation YOPY will have a cell phone built-in, by the way ("Bluetooth"), and there may be a plug-in for the first generation to accomplish that, so within a year or two I would likely dispose of the cell phone.
The reason I really want the YOPY, besides its killing several birds with one stone, is that it runs Linux. All my gambling software is written to run under Linux. I should be able to copy over the source code, recompile on the YOPY, and being able to run all those programs on the go.
-Abdul
Is there some sort of slot in that Yopy? cell time may end up being pretty expensive. Perhaps there is some direct wireless access. You can use a Palm with Ricochet from Metrocom cheap unlimited but it isn't available in LV I see.
Perhaps you should be raising VC to build the correct gamblers internet appliance.
D.
Whatever you do, don't buy anything with Sprint PCS! I had two Sprint phones that I put up with for over 2 years while I figured they would improve the service. They haven't done a damn thing yet! It was so bad that despite liking the terms of their service, I just recently dumped them for a Nevada Bell phone. I was at Circuit City looking at the phone and talking to a salesman while being harrassed by a Sprint PCS salesman. Now this is a direct quote, "We have the best company with the best rates, the best plans, and the best phones. Our only problem that we get lots of complaints about is COVERAGE!" What kind of idiot is this? If you don't have coverage, you don't have shit. I can't get reception at my house, at my work, in many buildings, it cuts out on roads...basically its worthless. I can't tell you how many times people called me while I was at my house and I tried to answer, but they didnt hear a thing so they hung up. Sprint is so busy building coverage everywhere that they figure screw the customers, we just want to expand nationwide. I can say that the phone does not come in at the Bellagio nor does it come in for most casinos in town. Now if the voice reception is this bad, imagine what trying to get data will be like at slow speeds. The sales guy said if you just need mostly local coverage and not long distance go with Nevada Bell. If you need long distance or roaming outside of Nevada and California go with AT&T. Maybe in a few years this will be a worthwhile company and service, but I can wholeheartedly say you are wasting your money getting committed in any way to Sprint PCS at this time.
Good, that's the kind of stuff I wanted to know from poker players... Sprint PCS phones do not work in poker rooms. A friend of mine was using one in the Bellagio coffee shop, so maybe they do work in coffee shops. :)
Richochet is a radio network hidden in street lights, so that you can have Internet access anywhere, but unfortunately they only cover Seattle, the San Francisco Bay Area, and Washington D.C. Thanks for reminding me of it... I had forgotten the name.
-Abdul
Don't let Bill Gates get wind of this "Samsung YOPY". If he does, you have no chance of ever seeing it. ;-)
It's very true that if Microsoft gets wind of YOPY I may never see one. That's because at least on the prototype they use a "START" button in the lower lefthand corner of the screen, just like Microsoft Windows and Microsoft WinCE, begging for a lawsuit from Microsoft. That's why I'm going to be first in line to buy it when it comes out. However, the outcry against the silly start button has been so loud and unanimous that I'm hoping they will remove it before shipping the product. In any case, Linux hackers will rework the whole thing and offer alternate user interfaces within a few months of its deployment.
-Abdul
Abdul, how viable is Linux? I'm not a computer expert but will Linux be a viable replacement to windows and does Miscrosoft have any big worries in the not too distant future?
There are mumblings on the net and in the media about Linux becoming a threat to Microsoft. Linux has a far larger development team than Microsoft could ever muster, as Linux is developed in parallel by independent hackers all over the world. As a result, there are much fewer bugs/crashes under Linux than Windows, and Linux is evolving much more rapidly.
Linux is becoming more user friendly. In the current version of RedHat, I just have to click on the "update" program and it will go off and update the OS and all my applications to their latest versions. (I'll admit that the current version of "update" is not as smooth as it could be.) The user interface under RedHat/Enlightenment is simply gorgeous, at least after a few customizations. You have drag-n-drop capabilities, a graphical file browser, and so on.
There is just no denying that Linux is a better designed operating system than Windows. However, if you go into a store, you'll see row after row of Windows software, but some stores do not even carry Linux games or applications (though almost all carry the OS.) Then again, if you go on the net, or buy the high end version of the OS, you'll find tons of free (and some not so free) applications/games for Linux.
Anyway, Windows has the edge right now simply due to commercial software, but things will likely change. YOPY, in fact, could be the force that expands Linux's foothold in Windows territory into a beachhead.
-Abdul
Cry babies have ruined poker for me. Players who whine or complain are the dregs. I suggested at todays tournament after the floorman gave his English only admonition that we don't cry. If you lose all your chips just quietly leave.
Chico,
Stop whining about cry babies! Without them, why would ESPN2 or the Discovery channel even bother putting poker on TV.
Regards,
Rick
Chico,
What I hate worse is when these "Baby Huey's" aren't crying and are smiling and joking because there winning my MONEY. So encourage Whining and occasionally bring in a block of cheese for them so they can dine.
paul
I wish the would pass out cheese and crackers with all the whine. :-)
hehehehehe
betelgeusebetelgeusebetelgeuse
Cry babies make me money. I love to hear them moan. I find that crybabies are easily controllable. Welcome them.
"John Bonnetti, report to the rail. Phil Hellmuth, report to the rail." This is what I want to hear over the intercom in my fantasy instead of the five minutes of mewling I usually hear when these two bust out. I agree that crybabies add marginally to your bankroll but they take alot of the fun out of the game for me. I do agree with Paul that it is worse to look at their smug faces when they have put some kind of beat on me. What I am trying to say is that there is a way to lose without bringing the other participants down.
see what people are made of. Whenever I play a NL Hold'em Tournament and take away someones chips, I try to project a non-emotional image, but I really want to say I got you, instead I try to be professional.
Cry babies are part of the game, even the pros are guilty of this behavior. Look at Phil Hellmuth in the Discovery video of the 1999 WSOP. I myself, believe it or not, have knocked out one of these pros from a tournament, you would not believe the nasty facial expressions I received. But, I enjoyed it. It's what makes the game fun.
unfortunately the sweacky,no sweeky, sweaky, no no the crying wheel seems to get the grease.
I just spille a Mountain ew on my eyboar too, Ray. It maes the eys stic, oesn't it?
I gather that when a drunk sticks a one-outer on you to drag a $600 pot, you smile and say, (sincerely, happy for his good fortune), "Nice hand, sir!" I assume that when the dealer prematurely burns and turns your nut-flush river card, thereby having to reshuffle the card back into the deck, and the second time a losing card for you comes out, you say nothing; and you tip that same dealer generously the next pot you DO win. I presume that when you are playing in a tournament, and just when the limits double, your cards turn to mud, and your final act of the game is to be forced to go all in with 9-3, and you lose, you come home, smile at the wife, pet the cat, etc. just like nothing happened. I surmise that when you get spend a night at the table getting pummeled by the LOLs, tourists, and idiots; when the only effect of getting dealt good cards is that you lose money with them; when you lose 40 big bets to a table where the combined IQ of your opponents is less than a date palm's; then you say nothing, do nothing unusual, complain to no one. Otherwise, the only difference between you and the "crybabies" is that you simply wait until later to vent your frustration, on some unsuspecting family member or other innocent bystander, rather than venting it at the moment. Either that or you never ever get frustrated or upset at anything---except your post precludes that possibility!
listening to whiners is better than being mugged by them,..or shot.
being shot sucks. i was shot in a dream once. it sucked.
scott
This has been the 1st time for me today since I played in holdem game in which I and another player raised each other on the turn till all his money in (raising 7 or 8 times). I had AhQd and the flop is KcJs10h, and the turn card is 3h. Since I had Ah, I knew he was not freerolling on me, so I was pretty sure we would chop the pot. Anyway, he was all-in and immediately turned over his Qh9h. At that moment, my mind changed from a sure winner to a kind of threated since he had outs. All my mind then was on the river card which, thanks god, was a black 7. I thought about this hand on the way home. How much a favor am I on the turn? What would you do if he turns over his cards on the turn in the processing of raising war?
regards,
jikun
It's easy to see how much of a favorite you are. Well, almost. Your opponent has 8 heart outs. He also has 3 ace outs for half the pot, or 1.5 effective outs. So that's 9.5 effective outs with 44 unknown cards, or a 22% effective chance of winning the pot from you. Your 78% chance is so huge that you should not hesitate to keep raising all the way down to the felt, unless your entire bankroll is on the table, and even then you should come close.
-Abdul
Thank you for your comments. When I think about the feeling at that moment, I can immagine that in no limit games with all the money in the pot, every card the dealer turns over can be so heavy in the heart when the opponent is drawing alive.
regards,
jikun
If you haven't read my previous post "Dangerous Dan just shook his head" this post may not make much sense. What's that you say? What's the differnce? My posts don't make much sense anyway! Well, thank you very much! Just go away then. This post is for my loyal fans including my numero uno fan David Sklansky. Hi David! Say hello to Mason for me. Tell him it's not necessary to defend you to Abdul. We still love you even when your not paying attention at the table. Besides, what's wrong with Abdul, just because he's got a Lonestar at home doesn't mean he's dead. He might play better poker himself if he chases girls rather than sit at the table paying attention. He should learn from the best! Chase those goils like Sklansky do! You'll only get bored constantly paying attention at the table.
Speaking of the table. I returned to the Mohegan Sun this Saturday after a two day lay off. I was still feeling guilty for winning money thursday night. Sure, I was guilty! Dangerous Dan, my buddy, was right to shake his head. I played horribly. I normally am not in a hurry to return to the Poker table after a session, even a losing one, but I was upset with myself and I only wanted to play because I wanted to prove to myself that I wasn't as bad as I appeared on thursday.
I left the hospital at 4 p.m after visiting my rather sick 90 1/2 year old mother. Nice son huh! Go play poker when Mom's in the hospital. Guilty as charged! Well, that's my problem. I'll have to answer to Jesus along with Badger when our time comes. Me for playing poker when mom's sick. Badger for spelling Jesus wrong (JEEZUS).
I got right into a 7 player 20-40 Holdem must move game upon arriving at the "Sun" around 7 p.m. The game was populated with mostly locals. A few solid players and a few not so solid. One fellow was on tilt and another was a calling station. After about an hour of solid (I like that word solid) play I was ahead about 100. I had stolen a blind and won a small pot out of the blind but for the most part was just a spectator. During the next hour the game filled up. The table composition changed a little because a few players moved over to the main game (main game = game that must be filled first. For novices like Paul Feeney). We picked up a couple more good players but were fortunate to keep the "tilter" and "station".
I played very good poker over the next hour and a half. "Dangerous" will be happy to know that I tossed a lot of weak hands from up front. Hands I was playing with on thursday. Things like J,To or Axs or 66. When they called me for the main game at 10:30 or 11 I was ahead $380. More than that I was happy with my play. I thought very seriously about leaving because I had a two hour drive home ahead of me. But, I decided to play one round in the main game. I took my seat one off the button and said to my self "great I can see 7 hands for free and then leave with out having to post a blind". I don't know why that came up because I never ever think of getting free hands. On the third hand of the round the guy on my right won an $800 pot and by the end of the round I felt this was a game I wanted to be in. Again, there were a few locals in the game and the "tilter" from the must move game had moved over with me and was still losing heavily. So when the time came for me to post my blinds I "bellied up to the bar". Nothing unusual occurred for the next two hours. Yes, even though I was going to leave at 11 I convinced myself that the game was good and that I should stay. My stack was somewhat smaller I was only up about $150 now, but I was playing well, I wasn't tired and I decided to continue to play. The reason I bring this up is that at this point a few players got up and the game went down to 7 players. I normally like a full game but I decided to continue anyway. Besides, the "tilter" was still in the game. About 30 minutes later I began to regret my decision. I was now down $100 and the game was down to five players, including the "tilter". Then I lost 2 big hands and was down $450 and the "tilter" went broke. I was very anxious. I thought the game would break. I was kicking myself for not leaving when I was ahead. I calmed myself down by telling myself that I had played well. That if the game broke that is the way it goes and, if so, just get up and go home. The game was now four handed. One of the players was a local rock. The other two were o.k. But since I consider myself a good short handed player I decided to play. Man I can come up with more reason's for continuing to play than anyone I know.
Badda bing! Badda bang! Boom! I took over the game! Soon I had all my money back. After only a half hour I was back to being $400 ahead. I said to myself "That's enough. Up and down all night. Your getting tired. The game is tough even if you are in control". Then I thought "Gosh, it's still dark out. I had a head light out on my car. I didn't want to drive in the dark because of it" So I convinced myself to stay a while longer.
All of a sudden the game filled up. Accross from me was a young buck named Carlos. I had played with him before. Very loose, very aggressive. The first hand I get involved in with the new table set up is a late position A,Ko that I raise two limpers and the blinds. Carlos is one of the limpers. The flop comes As,8c,3c. I don't have any clubs. Check to me. I bet and Carlos calls. Turn is the Jc. Carlos checks. I bet and Carlos calls. The river is a blank. Carlos checks. I smell something "foul" in the air. I know it's not smoke. Mohegan Poker room is now smoke free. I check. Carlos turns over the Ac,6c and wins the pot. As soon as I said it I knew it was a mistake. "You gotta bet your hand". This started a rather nasty exchange between Carlos and me that was really silly and unnecessary. From there it was straight down hill. Soon I was even. I don't know here the money went it just flew to the other players. A few minutes later I was down 200 the 300. Now I pick up 3d,4d in late position. 4 limpers and I decide to raise!. The button (Carlos) the blinds and the limpers, call. The flop comes 6,7,9, one diamond. I bet and Carlos and one limper call. The turn is a 4. I check. Carlos bets. I raise and Carlos reraises. The river is a nine and Carlos bets. I call! Carlos turns over 7d,9d. I know it looks like I was on tilt but I wasn't. I really thought he had two big cards. I've seen him play this way before and I was betting he would do it again. I was wrong and now I was down $700. I took $200 out of my wallet and had a total of $300 left to play with. Iwas very upset at this point. I decided to look for a big hand and not get invoveld unless I could take the lead. For the next two rounds I didn't pick up anything. Then in the big blind it was checked aroud to me and I looked at T,9o and checked. The flop came 8,6,2 rainbow. I bet. Carlos raised. It was folded to me and I called. The turn brought a 7!. I check raised Carlos. He mumbled and called. The river brought an Ace. I bet, Carlos raised and I reraised. After I dragged the pot Carlos utterd. "T,9. Idiot!" That started me off. "Did you call me an idiot" I said. He said "You heard me". I shut up and played.
The very next hand I had 6s,9s in the small blind. There was a live straddle (had not had on all night). The button, very solid player, raised. I folded. Flop, 6,9,x. Would have won a big pot which would have brought me back to even. I was not happy. Two hands later Carlos straddles! I am in late position. Passed to me. I raise with K,Jo. Carlos say "O.K! I call I won't even raise". The flop comes T,9,3. Carlos checks. I bet he raises I call. Turn 7. He bets I call. River Q. He bets I raise. He had stacked his bets in front of him. He had Qh,7h. When he saw my hand he picked up his bets and threw them at me. I made some silly remark and eventually called the floor over to keep him in line. That just made him madder. In fact he asked me to play him heads up. I refused and continued to play. After that I went on a minit rush and soon found myselup $700. I played a little while longer finally settling for a $440 win at 6 a.m. I exhaustedly picked myself up got to my car and drove myself home.
Now after reflecting upon this experience I can't say that I played extremely well or that I was just lucky. The only conclusion I can come to is that I played o.k enough to win. Well maybe next time.
Vince.
BTW - Carlos left the game before I did. Before I left the Casino I grabbed him and apologized for the silly way I behaved. We shook hands and said no hard feelings. I liked that!
>>I shut up and played.
I actually believed this story until I read that.
Brett
"For novices like Paul Feeney" Beginner I got the pills HOLD ON till the 8th. Did you fix your headlight yet!!!!!!
Apprentice
Well, Vince, you got at least one thing on me. If I play to 6am, I sure don't remember any of the hands the next day. Also, if I had to drive 2 hours after that, I would never make it home to write the trip report. You'd find me dead on the side of the road.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Vince,
Again, another great talking aloud protocol. You hold the mirror of nature up to us as you candidly reveal your thinking. Perhaps John Feeney and Alan Schoonmaker might put their Ph.D.s into practice and tell us more about your posts. Or perhaps not. :)
Regards,
John
x
In the Summer. You can catch them in bikini's at the local beach.
Vince
"Mohegan Poker room is now smoke free."
Totally false but it was a good test to see if I read down that far Vince.
ukw
It is until the air conditioner is fixed.
Vince.
In the new issue of CP there is a small ad near the back in which Mike Hart requests a "backer" for the 2000 WSOP. The man's won four bracelets fa'crissakes!!
Maybe he should've gotten some stock tips from Badger, or poker tips from Warren Buffett, or tips on dating rich women from Vince, or...
Hopefully he hasn't had any tragedies in his personal life that ate up his bankroll.
I guess 850K+ doesn't go as far as it used to.
I've seen a lot ot fair tournament players take their winnings to a ring game - after paying off all their creditors - and blow it in days if not hours. I'm not saying Mr. Hart is in this class cuz I don't know him but most cardroom regulars have no idea of the value of money and always end up broke.
I think it is out of their confort zone not to have money and they find a way to get rid of it.
I saw Eskimo Clark do this in 1996. He finished 5th in the first limit Hold 'em tournament for $50K, was surrounded by people as soon as he got paid, was playing $200-400 the next night, and was on the rail three nights later.
I can believe that - this guy is a hustler of the 1st degree. Trys to sell jewelery at the poker tables I really don't want to end up like that.
The thought kills me.
Hey, watch it there, Rounder. I try to sell jewelry at the poker tables too. Fortunately, I am such a rotten salesman that it doesn't much matter what I do.
(And I've never completely lost a bankroll either.)
Dick
Dick at least you aren't selling junk for the real thing like some people I know.
:-)
..
In May we hope to publish two new books. They are:
Inside the Poker Mind; Essays on Hold 'em and General Poker Concepts By John Feeney Ph.D. and
The Psychology of Poker By Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D
"Ph.D" I got one of those after my name and I was real proud until I heard what it stood for "PILED HIGHER & DEEPER".
BRO
You know, when I got it they never DID tell me what it stood for. Now I know why, bro.
Abdul, with an intellect like yours why on earth are you wasting your time playing poker; sports betting? Are you just lazy like David Sklansky?
You have a million dollar computer and you are feeding a $100 program into it.
Do something with your life...get out of the cardrooms.
Thanks for the compliments, which apply to virtually all of us here.
I left my job as an artificial intelligence researcher at NASA due to low salaries during the recession, Draconian taxes due to having a working wife, the drain of working on computer programs all day long, and the inability to take off briefly from work to exploit several very profitable short-lived gambling opportunities.
I occasionally make posts here saying "poker is a waste of time." So is a regular day job. Both have the flaw that long term growth is limited. Ultimately, I would like to get into stocks, options, and other investment vehicles that offer growth on homongous bankrolls. For now, I'm looking into sports betting, which offers growth on bigger bankrolls than poker does.
-Abdul
Ultimately, I would like to get into stocks, options, and other investment vehicles that offer growth on homongous bankrolls.
Have you looked into real-estate?
- Andrew
Funniest post I have seen in awhile on this site. Well my two cents...Abdul should use his vast wealth being a loan shark. I have heard some beauties coming out of the rooms recently. One guy said the going rate on a loan was a $50 weekly payment on a dime loan, and that is ONLY THE INTEREST!!! If the borrower actually kept such loan for a year he would pay $2400 in interest, or 240% a year! Who can't get rich on those terms? Just get collateral which you can track on your state of the art computer Abdul!
.
Hey Abdul,
Here is some unasked for advice. Retire!
Vince
Apart from ROI, IRR and NPV, there're other tangible benefits in your line of work. You realize of course that working in something you really enjoy, is a privilege that a small minority in the world has. Simply the fact that professional or semi-professional poker players get to do what they themselves find 'fascinating', 'enjoyable', 'fun', etc is ample reward on its own - the least they have to do from then on is make ends meet. (I hope I don't need to drag up any of the numerous brain-dead, mind-numbing or body-killing jobs around to make my point, be they well- or poorly-paying jobs.)
As the man said
Please stop dreaming...
I want to ask the pro poker players of the world, with a show of hands, how many of you truly enjoy your job??? If you could do a variety of other things and make the same income, would you not do it? Hell I probably would accept lower income to avoid the swings and drawbacks of poker. I play it purely for pleasure a few times a month, but any more and I find the game plain boring. One can only think of so many ways to play Big Slick in middle position and the thrill goes away doing it real fast. I win at all my other gambling activities so the thought of playing a fun, but losing game isn't really something I want to do. Therefore I make a small profit over time and enjoy the game while its interesting, but thats far from many hours a month.
Yes playing poker can be fun activity, but playing to win the most money generally isn't that fun and requires more work effort than I personally expend in my job. I just have to concentrate on my work thats on my desk and on my computer screen all day. I don't have to think about what the guy in the next cube has on his desk that I can't see, what he does with his pen while he thinks about a borderline decision, what state of mind he is in since the last decision he made got the bosses attention, etc. Poker for a living sucks if you ask me and I don't have any delusions about it. I work and make my hourly expectation every day and never have to worry about how many deviations I can last, I just have to worry about my bills just like the poker pro does. Oh yes, did I mention that I don't have to breathe smoke either?
Yes sure there are a very few at the top that truly love the game and want to play endlessly but they are few and far between. Just go watch the attitudes and behavior of the top pros to see that this is true.
You doubt that poker players and, in general, pro gamblers are in a better position than the vast majority of working people in the world, as far as enjoyment of work is concerned?!
Fair enough. Instead of a 'poll', if you were to answer on behalf of (A) a pro player, and (B) your average working stiff the following Questionnaire, you'd see my point more clearly:
1. Did you choose to work in your specific line of work or is it all you could find in the marketplace to make ends meet?
2. Do you work on a specific time-table someone else has chosen or can you keep your own working hours?
3. Same as #2, for your vacations, please.
4. Do you enjoy talking about your work, after your work is finished for the day, commenting on it or debating ways to improve it?
5. Is your job boring to the poinnt that you'd like to change jobs and do something completely different, with the same amount of monetary rewards?
6. Is your job what or close to what you wanted to do in life?
7. Would you like it or not, if your offspring go into the same line of work you do?
8. If you could choose to statyour life all over again, would you go into the same line of work you find yourself in or would you prefer something different?
9. Do you get excited at least once every day in your work?
10. Do you have friends among people in the same line of work as you?
11. When you're through working for the day, do you find yourself wanting to get away from your place of work as fast as possible or do you not mind staying around, relaxing with colleagues and friends?
I had a real job for 20 years.It paid the bills and bored me to death.If you have a family to support you may have no choice.I don't,the decision to become a Pro Gambler was much easier.When I was at my real job,I used to track the time,when the day would be over,when was the next vacation.My first year as a Pro Gambler was great,the 2nd it became more routine,the third was much tougher(first prolonged down swing)There have been times when I've considered getting a real job again,to restore the comfort level.To put it in perspective I recently pulled out the want adds-conclusion,no way.Life is too short,I'd rather live it on my owm terms.
Better to have lived one day as a lion than a life time as a lamb.
I think you need more sources of income not necessairly a JOB but other things to keep you active and in a bit of money.
I like to buy and sell high dollar pottery and other antiques - I love auctions and use the internet for selling the junk. I have this job too which I only have to work 5 or 6 hours a week so it doesn't take to much time up and I am my own boss.
Good luck.
That questionnaire showed some bias towards being a poker player. Here is a real job satisfaction questionnaire for college graduates:
1. Are you currently employed?
2. How would you classify your current employer?
3. What is the zip code of your place of employment?
4. How closely related is your current job to your degree?
5. If your current job is unrelated to your major, was this by choice?
5. How helpful has the major of your degree been in the specific duties of your current job?
6. In general, how well did your degree prepare you for your present job?
7. Overall, how satisfied are you with your current job?
8. Do you consider yourself to be underemployed in your current job?
8A. Are you underemployed in terms of salary?
8B. Are you underemployed in terms of responsibilities?
9. What is your annual income before taxes in your current job?
10. Using the occupation list from the back of the cover letter... choose the code that describes the work you are doing in your current job.
[It's a huge list, but here are the only choices for a professional gambler:]
2. Management -- Financial Managers, Treasures, Controllers
8. Management -- Small Business Owner
26. Business & Financial -- Other (Specify)
48. Life, Physical, & Social Sciences -- Psychologist
88. Art, Design, Entertainment, Media & Sports -- Other (Specify)
-Abdul
This questionaire is a waste of time. Obviously, you would like to play poker for a living. I would like to play poker for a living, but I know that I could never make the money that I currently make. I would have to take a pay cut. The point is we have to earn enough money to support the lifestyle that we want to live. For me poker is a hobby. I have no unrealistic dreams of becoming a poker pro. There are few people capable of making a good living at poker. When I say money, I'm talking about greater than $100,000 a year. If someone could teach me how to consistantly win over $100,000 a year and guarantee it, I would do it. From my gambling experiences, I believe being a pro poker player is very difficult.
Good point on that. The reality is that very very few people have those skills to make 6 figures playing poker. It requires unusual levels of skill, discipline, and feel for the game. The skill isn't the hardest part as almost all of us know.
As for the other questions, where is the one asking about the healthiness of your chosen profession? Its gotten better if you live in CA, but still the game tends to produce people that sleep weird hours and eat a terrible diet since they get caught up in the "great" game mentality.
Another point is the whole who is your boss mentality. Personally I love having a boss. When shit happens, hey they blame him. When the auditors come, they don't ask me, they ask him. When its 5:30, I am out of the office, he never leaves until 7 or 8. Even business owners have a boss, its called their customers. Poker pros have a schedule too, its when the games are good. Yeah there is a game going all the time, but that doesn't mean its a good, profitable game. Lots of vacation is nice, but is yours paid? I have people I could talk to about work, its called gossip, but who really wants to do that? For every argument you make, I am sure a good counter can be brought up. For me it all comes down to less stress, less work, and because of my education and experience similar if not better money in an office job.
I see so many pros working outrageous hours because they are stuck and need to make the rent this month, or because they spent it on a girl when they were running good. There are so many temptations available when you are working in an all cash business. Believe me I know where I am coming from in all this. I started out at 21 being a professional sports bettor. I made excellent money, more than I do now, but it took its toll on me. To make that money I was working 7 days a week, months at a time. I had little social life because yeah, I had people to talk to, but these weren't really friends, they were just out to pick up something from you. They wanted advice, they wanted picks, they wanted loans. Not the people I would invite to a party I would throw. Further the swings take their toll on you no matter how good a player you are. Your steely attitude only lasts until you realize this is your biggest negative swing and you wonder if your talent is good enough. You tend to overcome your loneliness and/or boredom with the game by spending all this money you have available to you. When you walk out of a casino with 5 dimes, you start thinking what does it matter if I go blow a C-Note here or there. The last stage comes when you realize what little fun these games are now. I didn't give a damn about sports or teams anymore. All I cared about was the number. Numbers are cold, numbers are boring, numbers are what I do for work. A great pass or a great play means nothing to you cause all you care about is covering. Its a terrible life and the only thing that is good is the money. Forget about this thinking about getting many vacations or making your own schedule...in time you realize there is a lot less flexibility than you thought. I am a firm believer that what does in pros isn't bad picks or poor skills, its the lifestyle. Many of the best poker players and sports handicappers I have ever met are just pure amateurs. They do it for the fun of it in a way, but more its that they are smart, successful people that perform best when they are under little pressure. A pro, well he isn't in that situation all that much. So before you all go off wishing for this lifestyle, be careful what you wish for. I have 100 more reasons I could list about why it all sucks that you might not think about, but I think I have made my point very clear. Professional gambling isn't easy, it isn't fun, it isn't something you can just jump into. Its hard work, it requires great dedication, and most of all it requires being able to handle a very tough lifestyle. Why do you all think that even the very best poker players very often have gone off and created other businesses to support themselves?
"Another point is the whole who is your boss mentality. Personally I love having a boss. When shit happens, hey they blame him. When the auditors come, they don't ask me, they ask him. When its 5:30, I am out of the office, he never leaves until 7 or 8. "
Amen to that.
Andy.
I think Wildbill put something good together up there.
I don't see "Amen in that" though. Also you guys must have a lot more vacation days than I do. Amen to that.
Hey,
Anyone interested in a chat room here on 2+2. Maybe we can get the host to create one.
Vince
Yeah - I'd like one. mIrc can be used - their facilities are super.
s
If you have mIrc, why not just go to irc.poker.net, and chat (as well as play poker).
- Andrew
Andy,
I went there just games going on no chat?
Hey did you see my goin to the UK post got my tickets today. Maybe we can have a pint some time.
Rounder,
I'd love to have a pint with you, but I live in Wisconsin, not the UK. I think you're confusing me with Andy Ward.
try andy@pokersoft.co.uk
- Andrew
So when will we see your next article on the Challenge Cup?
Brett
me too
LOL Yeah I am.
Sorry
and yeah. i think it's a good idea.
scott
x
Just my two cents but I think a chat room on this site could hurt the discussion on the forums. When people came to the site they would have the option to either chat live with folks or write intellectual responses that demand contemplation and good prose. My experience is that people too often go for the social aspect and skip the thinking involved in the longer posts that I find most valuable as someone interested in becoming a better poker player. I would hate to see this site become noisy like rgp.
KJS
I'll be in the UK from June 12th through the 27th staying in Gerrards X - I am interested in playing in some local tournaments will travel anywhere in the country - I know the train system quite well - any ideas? I see there is a few bigger tournaments on the continent during this time one in Paris which is a possibility.
Cheers,
Rounder
I will also be going to the UK in late May and I will have a BritRail pass. I would appreciate any feedback you might get. I am more interested in Omaha than Holdem, but do like pot limit.
Dave
Guys,
I wish I could recommend the trains but I can't. Basically nothing runs between midnight and 6am. Most tournaments end at 2am at the latest, and just to round it off, the casinos have to close at 4am ! You would be better off hiring a car.
www.poker-in-the-uk.com and the EPPA link on the "Favourite Links" section here have lots of info, although you may already be familiar with these already.
If you should find your way to Luton or the Ladbrokes Russell Square, drop me an E-Mail beforehand, andy@pokersoft.co.uk .
Andy.
Andy, I will have a car I want to try out the casino in Birmingham along with the ones in luton and london.
Do the casinos in Luton and London run tournaments?
Of course it is Royal Ascot week and I do like the GGs
Tournaments are actually spread more than cash games. Check out http://www.poker-in-the-uk.com/club_listings.htm
The Internet - is there anything it can't do ?
Andy.
yea, it cant get thru Rounders thick skull. but good luck to Rounder in england, and win back some of the money those brits take away from the yanks every year.
Andy Thanks for the response. I have already printed out all the locations and schedules from the web site, including maps!
I will be staying in the Lake District and playing poker is a backup plan in case it is raining. (Always be prepared, I say!) I don't mind closing down a casino (used to do that at the old Cameo Club in Palo Alto) and waiting a couple of hours for a train.
I have a question. I have heard that you can now apply for membership at clubs by fax, and the 48-hour rule is history. Is this correct?
Dave
Dave,
Some clubs you can do this (apply by fax), I don't know if it is all. Best to phone the club and ask. I do know that the 48-hour thing has at least been reduced to 24. Unfortunately I don't know anything about the scene in the North of England so I can't give you any more background.
Good luck,
Andy.
I remember the 1st time I went to a UK casino in Hull they said we couldn't play unless we had a member sign us in so I found a cabbie who was a member and paid his "idle fare" while we where playing. Actually I tipped him 100 quid cuz I won 1400 that night and my mate won even more so it was a worth while "investment".
Question is can we still get signed in by a member?
Yes. But you will have to behave or the member catches the heat :-)
Andy.
.. if the member who signed you in has to leave for any reason, then so do you. All in all if you can do it by fax that is the easiest option.
Andy.
I agree just wondering if it was still that way.
And I always behave.
I have spotted a tell on a player from the way he bets with his chips (I am amazed it is so accurate). I really want to be in the pot when he is in as often as possible. However, in order to do that, I have to lower my own starting hand value, and this will put me on the disadvantage to against other players who may enter the pot. What is the best strategy to do here? Your advice is appreciated.
regards,
jikun
Do everything you can to sit to his left as often as possible. As close to his immediate left as you can.
You will compromise your game going after one player.
Play your best game and if you get in a hand with the teller use it.
Jikun,
if the game is tight sit on his left so you can raise to isolate him. if you can use his tell to bluff him out at will you can play most hands he is in if he is fairly loose. if not play your regular game. if the game is loose sit across the table from him so you can see his tell perfectly and you get a feel who else is coming in. if you play much better than the field play looser, if not play your regular tight skillfull never steaming boring game.
s
I was looking through my copy of HEPFAP21, and there's a problem with the book. The strategic concepts section is cut off at the first page of checkraising, and the rest of that section has been replaced with part of the Questions and Answers section. That's not very nice. Anyone else find this problem with their copies? And to anyone at 2+2, how should I go about getting an exchange?
Thanks,
Bill
i thought everyone knew that you had to send in an additional 10,000 bucks to get the great stuff in the missing section. its a come on. where have you been?
the only real problem with the books is the gum on the covers that people ask about all the time. i think the printer chews too much and it gets in the works of the press. i personally havent seen any gum on the covers of the books but there is a thread about it going on presently and much in the archives somewhere. why anyone would have gum on the cover of a book is way beyond me. i dont like the stuff anyway.
I think you got the "fill in your own pages" edition. You are a lucky man because whatever you write becomes gospel. I would save that copy and put it away for posterity. It might be worth a lot of money later. Imagine if you had the first copy of the Bible. Think about it (hmmmmm.....).
So mayBe I could write down false information and make people BeLieve mE... Hmmmmm....
Isn't that what they all do???
Although "American Beauty" was fine, they don't make them like they used to. Here's my top ten in no particular order. Feel free to comment.
1. Pennies From Heaven--Dennis Potter's meditation on life, art, and the movies.
2. Day for Night--Truffaut's meditation on life, art, and the movies.
3. 8 1/2--Fellini's meditation on life, art, and the movies (notice a pattern here).
4. Cries and Whispers--Ingmar Bergman's seering, relentless examination of "relationships."
5. Citizen Kane--where's your P.F. Flyer?
6. The Searchers--John Ford and John Wayne at their best.
7. Bringing Up Baby--classic screwball comedy featuring Cary Grant, Kate Hepburn, and leopards in Connecticut.
8. Andrei Rublev--Andrei Tarkovsky's story of a Russian icon painter is slow-moving and long; it's also a meditation on life, art, and the movies. A masterpiece.
9. Strangers on a Train--tough choice over Vertigo, but Hitchcock clicks on all cylinders here. You'll never look at marriage in the same way again.
10. X-The Man With The X-Ray Eyes--Roger Corman's gem features a great performance by Ray Milland. When it's over, you'll be glad you can't see throught the backs of playing cards.
And, best poker movie is The Music of Chance based on a novel by Paul Auster. It will make you think about placing that really big bet.
Oh good. Something that has nothing to do with gambling. I'll jump in with my ten favorite films. YMMV.
1) Blues Brothers
The film that made "east Wacker drive" a part of the national vocabulary.
2) The Godfather II
By a whisker over the first, in no small part due to my fave character, Senator Geary.
3) Midnight Run
A thinly veiled tribute to the other great Midnight dysfunctional buddy flic, Midnight Cowboy.
4) Clerks
Zen Buddhist examination of self wrapped in a pita pocket of pop culture sensibility sendup.
5) The Producers
Mel Brooks hits on all cyllinders. Danger of seeming dated, but every performance is A-1.
6) Ghostbusters
Ivan Reitman is a genius. Bill Murray is close behind.
7) Where Eagles Dare
Does the near impossible in translating the great novel to the screen. For a drinking game I invented, do a shot everytime Clint kills someone. Your blood alcohol level should exceed that of John Bonham's the day he died.
8) Rude Boy
On the surface a Clash rockumentary. In actuality a scathing indictment of Thatcherism. Great live footage to boot.
9) Diehard
The pinnacle of achievement in modern action filmmaking.
10) Caddyshack
Tho anticipated by Pat & Mike, this film turns the whole golf/class-tension/adolescent-unease/dybbukism genre on its ear.
JG
I notice a general trend to your movie selections. Pretty much all your movies are old. Now, thats all well and good, but I have a feeling that when you say, they "don't make em like they used to", you really mean "Where are my false teeth?"
Movies today have just as much complexity as the movies made in ot 7 (is that how you guys refer to 1907? I think that's so cool) Just look at Dead Man on Campus, Happy Gilmore, PCU, Better off Dead, The first ten minutes of Chasing Amy, and the scenes with Jay and Silent Bob in Dogma. These movies (or parts thereof are incredible! If you don't believe me, just ask God.
Old movie folks are a lot like the Russian Communist party. You both hate the way things are, and both like parades. I'm not a parade man myself, but even if I were, the best parade scene ever was not and oldie. It was the climax of "Animal House".
I know, I know. I'm not being fair to all genre's. Indeed, there are two genres that I feel uncomfortable with.
1) Half-Vampire Super Hero (nod to scottie). Blade just didn't do it for me (saw it despite friend's warning)
2) Gigantic Robots and their complex relationship with society. Apparently the Iron Giant did some ground breaking work on this subject, but i'd like to see more attention paid to it.
Why was my subject line Reverse Vampires? If you haven't figured it out yet, read my message again. Each of the letters that comprise "Reverse Vampires" appear somewhere in my message (in many cases more than once). See if you can find them.
alex
also, stop asking me why bad things happen to good people, they just do!
now, back to my gigantic proscuitto sandwich made out of special heaven cows.
He who is who he is
AlexB,
Actually, I'm not thaaaat old--at least I don't think so. Here's the personal ad I wrote today:
SWM, 46. Still has own teeth. Hurry, good catch!
Think I'll get many responses?
John
in honor of his ali like return to the ring, i'll post some of my favorite movies.
fight club. great script. great acting. allusions to nietzsche and beckett and others. wow. top notch art.
godfather 1 2. they've been on almost every list so i am not going to defend them.
princess bride. this was my number one favorite movie for years. i haven't seen anyone else mention it, but it is super funny and quite endearing.
natural born killers. this movie gets a bad rep for being extremely violent while ostensibly being against media violence. and, in fact, i've heard that tarentino and stone both thought this movie was merely a social statement about violence in the media. if that is true then they accidently stumbled upon genius. violence is one of the most interesting aspects of human nature. violence steadfastly refuses to be explained away by reason and it deeply affects those it encounters. this movie is the single best discussion of violence in any medium. well, violence appears in better works, but none that i've encountered totally commit themselves to violence.
shawshank redemption. success of the individual. an image of the truly good man. very well done.
pulp fiction. the best and most realistic dialog found in any movie or play i have ever seen or read. i've seen resevoir dogs, and while it is a better story, pulp fiction's dialog is just sublime.
braveheart. another tale of the good individual. great ending. i am so used to crappy endings that i give a couple extra points for just not messing everything up.
the discreet charm of the bourgiousgie. this movie is awesome. it's in french by some famous french artsy director. basically a bunch of rich people keep having their dinner interupted. really funny and cool stuff with dreams.
fargo. i just love buscemi. he's great in this. also, the scene were he buries the money in the snow along the fence. those shots are amazing.
scott
1.Ran "3. 8 1/2--Fellini's meditation on life, art, and the movies (notice a pattern here)." Suffering through "La Strada" in film class forever soured me on Fellini. "4. Cries and Whispers--Ingmar Bergman's seering, relentless examination of "relationships." I prefer "Seventh Seal." "5. Citizen Kane--where's your P.F. Flyer?" This is a great film, but I don't want to ever watch it again. You should also see Welles' Touch of Evil. "8. Andrei Rublev--Andrei Tarkovsky's story of a Russian icon painter is slow-moving and long; it's also a meditation on life, art, and the movies. A masterpiece." Eisenstein's Alexander Nevsky and Potemkin are very good films. Haven't seen any Tarkovsky. "9. Strangers on a Train--tough choice over Vertigo, but Hitchcock clicks on all cylinders here. You'll never look at marriage in the same way again." I think Psycho and Rear Window are among his weakest films. I've seen almost everything by him, but not Strangers on a Train. Shadow of a Doubt and Notorious are two excellent films that aren't as well-known. "And, best poker movie is The Music of Chance based on a novel by Paul Auster. It will make you think about placing that really big bet." The only *poker* movie I've seen is Rounders, so I can't comment. But I really liked the Vegas scenes in Go and Swingers.
Casablanca
It's a wonderful life.
Miracle on 34th Street (original)
Wizard of Oz
Godfather I & II
Rocky I & II
Dr. No
Austin Powers I
Yankee Doodle Dandy
img SRC="http://www.oz.net/~daveb/angie.htm"
you guys make me sick. here are the best 10 movies ever.
african queen
mid. run
cit. kane
red ballon
bean
out of africa
casa.
god 1 &2
bridge over the river kwai
braveheart
alien
jaws
on the beach
snow white and the 7 dwarfs
field of dreams
great santini
so what if this is more than ten picks
n/t
"snow cap and the 7 dweebs"
so what if this is less than ten picks
Rounders list:
Raiders of the Lost - Indy kicks butt
Rocky I & 2 - Rocky kicks some butt
Godfather - the 1st 2nd - My boys kick some butt.
Die Hard 1 - Bruce kicks some butt
Any Quinton Tarintino film - lots of blood and guts specially "Resevour Dogs".
Full Metal Jacket - Semper Fi - this WAS boot camp the 1st hour scared the crap out of me - I felt like I was back in the corps. Gunny Earley kicks some butt then Gomer blowes his ass off.
ZULU - 176 Brits kick some heavy ZULU butt.
Any gambling movie - "Let it ride" "Rounders" "Cincinnatti Kid" "California Split"
So I like violent & gambling movies - think I need a shrink?
I have two suggestions for you if you want to avoid hell.
1) Write in complete sentences.
2) Be nicer to people
3) Direct a movie on giant robots.
The third suggestion is part of the first two suggestions if you sufficiently well-versed in metaphysics. Since you are not, I'll explain the connection. after dinner
God (not God Shammgod)
1stly I don't believe in heaven
2nd go fuck your self.
Rounder,
I couldn't help noticing down here that your movie choices involved men and butts. I'm not trying to say anything but I have one question for you: are you currently one of the many steelworkers in America? And if you don't believe in Heaven why are you talking to God? Maybe poker isn't your calling after all, you should become one of the crazy guys who yells at the heavens and drinks moonshine. I believe they're known as hobos, and they're great. Man, I could really go for one of those gigantic proscuitto sandwichs right now.
Mephisto
BTW- I talked with my boss, and he said the best offer he can give you is two doughnuts, take it or leave it.
1. Wall Street. Gordon Gecko, "Greed is good, greed is right, greed -- in all of it's forms, for life, for love, for money ..."
2. Maverick. Ahhhhh, what fun. Wouldn't it be grand that we could have the world poker championship on a riverboat -- that actually had onboard accomodations? Alas, the American Queen and the Mississippi Queen are the only two paddlewheels available with that sort of ambience.
3. Night Shift. If you can't enjoy Henry Winkler and Michael Keaton as morgue employees turned pimp ("looooove brokers"), and Shelley Long as a hooker, then you have no imagination. Rod Stewart singing "That's What Friends are For" is a bonus.
4. LeMans. Another epic Steve McQueen flick, with him doing something he truly loved, racing high speed sports cars.
5. Titanic. Marketing aside, it *was* an incredible movie.
6. As Good As It Gets. Jack Nicholson just keeps getting better. My favorite line: "Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here."
7. The Blues Brothers. "We're on a mission from God."
8. The Great Santini. I have to include this one because I was marginally involved with it while working on F4 Phantoms at Marine Corps Air Station, Beaufort SC in the late 70s. A realistic and touching flick about a Marine fighter pilot that earned Robert Duvall and Michael O"Keefe Oscar nominations.
9. Braveheart. Maybe Mel Gibson's finest role.
10. Debbie Does Dallas. Yawn. Okay, just kidding, I couldn't think of 10 ....
Post deleted at author's request.
Great list Badger,nice to find out I'm not the only person in the world that thinks "Vertigo" is not one of Hitchcock's top ten films.
Thank you John Cole for starting this very entertaining thread.As far as my picks for best movies ever made,many have already been listed by others."The Bridge On The River Kwai"by ray zee,Badger's great list of films by the master of suspense Alfred Hitchcock,and "The Godfather"picked by more then one.
So here is my list of my favorite movies not already mentioned. In chronological order: 1. "Maltese Falcon" (1941) Humphrey Bogart at his best. 2."Our Vines have Tender Grapes" (1945)Edward G Robinson and Margaret O'Brien in this great slice of life about life in a small Wisconsion town. 3. "Treasure Of The Sierra Madre" (1948) Great study in human nature 4. "Winchester '73" (1950) Jimmy Stewart and Shelley Winters in this great western following the various owners of a rifle. Dan Duryea is electrifying as Waco Johnnie Dean. There is also a good poker scene. 5. "High Noon"(1952) Another great study in human nature. Also shot in real time. 6."Shane" (1953) Maybe a little slow for todays audiences but still one of the best movies ever made. 7."12 Angry Men" (1957) Wow, almost the entire movie takes place in one room. Still very compelling.A must see. 8. "Cool Hand Luke" (1967) One of Paul Newmans best! Perfect cast. No failure to communicate about this movie. It is the real deal.George Kennedy's oscar was much deserved. Also has a great poker scene. 9. "True Grit" (1969) My favorite John Wayne picture. The rapport between Duke and Kim Darby is priceless. 10 "Last Of Sheila" (1973) Written by composer Stephen Sondheim and actor Anthony Perkins. This great murder mystery stars James Mason, James Colburn, Requel Welch and Dyan Cannon. 11 "Sling Blade" (1996) Billy Bob Thornton's chilling masterpiece. Also anything with Jack Lemmon.
Post deleted at author's request.
Great list Badger,nice to find out I'm not the only person in the world that thinks "Vertigo" is not one of Hitchcock's top ten films.
Thank you John Cole for starting this very entertaining thread.As far as my picks for best movies ever made,many have already been listed by others."The Bridge On The River Kwai"by ray zee,Badger's great list of films by the master of suspense Alfred Hitchcock,and "The Godfather"picked by more then one.
So here is my list of my favorite movies not already mentioned. In chronological order: 1. "Maltese Falcon" (1941) Humphrey Bogart at his best. 2."Our Vines have Tender Grapes" (1945)Edward G Robinson and Margaret O'Brien in this great slice of life about life in a small Wisconsion town. 3. "Treasure Of The Sierra Madre" (1948) Great study in human nature 4. "Winchester '73" (1950) Jimmy Stewart and Shelley Winters in this great western following the various owners of a rifle. Dan Duryea is electrifying as Waco Johnnie Dean. There is also a good poker scene. 5. "High Noon"(1952) Another great study in human nature. Also shot in real time. 6."Shane" (1953) Maybe a little slow for todays audiences but still one of the best movies ever made. 7."12 Angry Men" (1957) Wow, almost the entire movie takes place in one room. Still very compelling.A must see. 8. "Cool Hand Luke" (1967) One of Paul Newmans best! Perfect cast. No failure to communicate about this movie. It is the real deal.George Kennedy's oscar was much deserved. Also has a great poker scene. 9. "True Grit" (1969) My favorite John Wayne picture. The rapport between Duke and Kim Darby is priceless. 10 "Last Of Sheila" (1973) Written by composer Stephen Sondheim and actor Anthony Perkins. This great murder mystery stars James Mason, James Colburn, Requel Welch and Dyan Cannon. 11 "Sling Blade" (1996) Billy Bob Thornton's chilling masterpiece. Also anything with Jack Lemmon. Thanks Howard
Badger,
I think you missed a few: Marnie, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, Number Thirteen.... ;-) Any Hitchcock is better than most anything else. He's my favorite director; I like your comment about Shadow of a Doubt because it applies to all of Hitchcock--what's normal, banal, and everyday is really terrifying. (Note how David Lynch slows down normal life to make it unreal and scary in Blue Velvet's opening.)
One note: When the British liberated the concentration camps, they filmed thousands of hours of footage. Hitchcock was commissioned to edit the footage and worked on the film at about the same time he made Vertigo. The film is called Camps of Death and has been shown on PBS a few times.
Regards,
John
WFM - Back Off!!
Ten of my Fave's, no particular order:
1. Godfather II
Cold, Michael. Very cold.
2. North by Northwest
Eva Marie, you slut.
3. The Great Escape
My father was in that camp. Didn't meet anyone like Steve McQueen. He still liked the movie.
4. GoodFellas
"Do you find me funny? What, do I amuse you?"
5. Taxi Driver
"Are you talking to me?"
6. 2001
I'm sure I will like it more when I figure it out. Groundbreaking, completely original.
7. Apocalypse Now
"The horror....the horror." I actually used that line a couple of months ago after suffering a horrendous bad beat. The Beater himself actually picked up on it and had a laugh.
8. Tootsie
Dustin's best, I think.
9. The Sting
"Four Jacks!" Beautiful.
10. California Split
The Guilty Pleasure. I was glad to see Rounder finally mention this buddy flick in a list of best poker movies. Elliot Gould doing the player analysis of the poker game was a beaut.
1. Unforgiven--Really, if you want the violence, Rounder, this will give you all you need. Clint just keeps getting better.
2. Happy Gilmore--I'm glad someone mentioned this before me. The other Adam Sandler movies just don't measure up, though.
3. Dirty Harry--Nothin' like more grizzled Eastwood.
4. The African Queen--Nothing need be said.
5. The Shawshank Redemption--The scene where Andy plays Mozart over the PA system is incredible.
6. Enter the Dragon--Bruce Lee kicks some serious ass, and really the only great martial arts movie.
7. Rounders--Hell, why not throw that one in there. It IS one of my favorite movies.
8. Good Will Hunting--I have a fascination with higher mathematics. Too bad I can't do it!
9. Coming to America--Who doesn't like the Soul Glo commercials, and the family getting off the couch leaving the stains.
10. Goldfinger--It's been mentioned before, but it is the best Bond.
John,
This isn't like you. Half of these movies I have actually heard of or seen.
Anyway, my list does not contain the obvious great movies like Casablanca, The Godfather, Citizen Kane and so on. These movies either touched me more than most or I thought they were overlooked or underrated.
Chinatown - This was the best movie IMHO. I think it is underrated despite it's lofty reputation.
Annie Hall - This is my favorite Woody Allen movie by far. The lobster scene is a relationship litmus test for me.
Das Boot (subtitled) or The Boat (dubbed) - My favorite World War II movie. Everything about this film was gripping and realistic. Submariner's I worked with in the eighties gave it a thumbs-up for realism. Warning: The longer director's cut which came out a few years ago contains the worse case of political correctness I have ever seen (one word was changed and I jumped out of my seat when I heard it). If you are a fan and saw both cuts, try to guess it.
Platoon - I hate Oliver Stone for what he did with JFK and Natural Born Killers but this was a fine piece of work. I give it a slight nod over Full Metal Jacket for Vietnam War Movies.
What's Eating Gilbert Grape - Very touching with great acting by DiCaprio, and Johnny Depp.
The Right Stuff - The book by Tom Wolfe was great and the movie only fell short by a little. I'm a big fan of the space program as you can see with my next choice.
Apollo 13 - This should have won the Oscar. A movie that made Engineer's heroes.
Sophie's Choice - Perhaps because I read the book I rate this a little higher than Shindler's List.
Alien - The best science fiction movie IMHO. The attitude of the crew on the space freighter was exactly like guys I sailed with on cold water racing sailboat deliveries in my youth.
She's Gotta Have It - Spike Lee went way downhill once he had money to spend.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
Please baby, please baby, please baby, please...
I know what word you're talking about; see if the rest of the people can get it.
Cartoon in The New Yorker reminded me of you: A man jumps up while watching Star Wars screaming, "Explosions don't make noise in space."
Can't resist; a few more:
The Seven Samuri Touch of Evil The Third Man The Empire Strikes Back Blue Velvet Das Boot--and almost any submarine movie Rules of the Game The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Celine and Julie Go Boating Chinatown
Ah, that's enough. I'll end up with 100.
John
Bah,
You all have good taste, so I thought I'd one up you all and go in the other direction.
The best "worst" movies
1. I spit on your grave
2. Anything with Living Dead (or "of the Dead")
3. Anything by Andy Sidaris
4. Anything with Emanuelle in the title
5. Santa Sangre
6. Lair of the White Worm
7. Any futuristic apocolyptic movie staring Charleton Heston
8. Anything with Lady Chatterly in the title
9. Escape From New York/Big Trouble in Little China
10. The BIG BUS
- Andrew
Post deleted at author's request.
here are 10 favorites though I probably forgot the top 10. In no particular order
1. Dr Strangelove
2. Taxi Driver
3. Pulp Fiction/Resevoir Dogs.
4. Clerks.
5. Shindlers List
6. The Hustler
7. The Sweet Hereafter
8. Apocalpse Now
9. It's a Wonderful Life
10. Vertigo/Rear Window/Shadow of a Doubt
See the greatest movie database ... if you don't already know about this.
These are my favour, but 5 do not know the name:
1. Gone with the wind.
2. Patten, a general in world war II
3. God father
4. Tatanic
5. Dr. Chivago?
6. ?about Wynn and Doc Holiday at tombstone.
7. ? One man was put in jail for the crime he did not commit, and escaped to Mexico after staying in jail for many years. His mate in jail who is a black man was released latter from jail and got the money he left under a stone somewhere and went to meet him on the beach in Mexico.
8. ? An undercovered FBI agent got inside the mob ring, and one of the little boss took very good care of him. The undercover FBI tried to give a bag of money to the little boss to buy a boat and go away.
9. ? A white man tried to develop a good relation with American indian, and there was always a wolf around.
10. ? When I was a kid, I saw a few American movies without sound, I likeed very much the short man with a black hat, moustache, walking stick, and feet went like this \/.
regards,
jikun
Jikun,
6. My Darling Clementine, but many other versions exist.
7. The Shawshank Redemption
8. Donnie Brasco?
9. Dances With Wolves?
10. Charlie Chaplin (as the Little Tramp)
Hope this helps.
Thanks. All these posts give me a lot of help to find movies in video stores in the future, since I usually pick one in random. I have written down a bunch of the names I got from other posts. This is great.
regards,
jikun
I'm glad Dunc included the best movie of all time on his list: The Sting
After that:
Godfather 1 & 2
Goodfellas
Silence of the Lambs (I cant believe no one else mentioned this one)
Shawshank Red.
Fight Club (by far the best movie last year)
Stand By Me
Scarface(also surprised no one mentioned this one)
Friday (by far the funniest movie ever, not in my real top ten but I had to include one comedy)
"Fight Club" was my favorite movie from 1999 also. good pick ATWOOD !
I can't believe no-one went for Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey. No film has ever made me laugh so much.
Andy.
I love movies I see at least 10 a week and 4 or more at the movie house. It is like asking me to pick one of my kids over the other - I rarely don't like a film can usually find some redeeming factor in it.
Last rally bad movie I saw was Mystery Men but since I love Jeannie Goroffalo it was worth while.
I just rented that Tuesday night and I loved it. (and wednesday I chopped the tourney; cause and effect -- I think so)
JG
Oh well, it's Friday afternoon, so, off the top of my head and in no particular order ...
Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey - "Woah ! I totally possessed my Dad !!"
This Is Spinal Tap - "No, you don't understand, this goes up to eleven"
Pulp Fiction & From Dusk Till Dawn - Kick ass !!
Silent Running - When he sends his little robot into space to tend the garden, sniff, boo hoo
Crimes & Misdemeanours - Woody is great and this is my favourite
Twelve Monkeys - Love Bruce Willis too and he is outstanding in this
The Pit and the Pendulum - Oh those Corman/Price classics (check out Jack Nicholson in The Raven as well)
The Sting - a nod towards the old days ..
High Noon - go on then, and one more ...
And I've forgotten loads I'm sure.
Andy.
Andy what 2 shotguns smoking or something like that the BRAG flick.
Hey did you see "The limey" withthe guy who played the bad superman guy. Lots of rhyming slang - which I love Great pic.
Your china plate, Rounder :-)
"Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels" is the first one you mean, a great film which would probably make the top 30. Not familiar with the other one. Which Superman bad guy do you mean anyway ? Did you know that Superman II was written by the guy who wrote The Godfather - must be why II is miles better than all the others.
Andy.
Andy,
Spinal Tap makes my list of comedies. My favorite scene was the bass player trying to get through the metal detector at the airport. I haven't eaten a cucumber since.
Rick
1)High Noon 2)Casablanca 3)Sound of Music 4)Mushashi Miyamoto 5)Citizen Kane 6)Enter the Dragon 7)Thomas Crown Affair remake version 8)Saturday Night Fever 9)Rounders 10)Patton
We have a similar list.
Counting the votes of john cole, jim geary, dan rubenstein, vince lepore, ray zee, rounder, earl, dunc mills, billg, rickn, david steele, jikun, atwood, andy ward, kojee kabuto
6 Godfather II
Late Entry:
Jaws Star Wars Field of Dreams Silver Streak Raiders of the Lost Ark Schindler's List Towering Inferno Cincinnati Kid When Harry Met Sally Titanic.
These are not in order, if that matters.
Danny S
In checking out the tournament schedules in UK casinos I find a came called Kalooki - can someone tell me what this is.
Thanks,
It's sort of like rummy. I gather that it is not dissimilar to Pan in the States.
That's probably all you need to know not to bother playing it :-)
Andy.
Just wondering about it I don't even play Omaha8 - too complex for my simple mind.
Hey those tournaments look good in London and Reading.
Where are you? - which casinos to you frequent?
Do you know guy nicknamed Lofty (looks like the TV character on Eastenders). I think he is from Wolverhampton.
Getting excited agout my trip BACK to England feel like I'm going home.
They're not bad. Luton is my home turf, lots of loose players to win money from and some _very_ good players to learn from. We go into Ladbrokes Russell Square occasionally but it's not my favourite. I have heard some negative comments about Reading (collusion and team play) but that is hearsay, I've never been there.
Andy.
PS Note to Rounder and all Americans - there are 50 million people in England. We don't all know each other :-).
But the card playing community as well as the serious gambling commmunity is smaller than we think. I meet brits in the USA who know some of the same people I know from the UK.
I live there from 1980 to 1988.
Making a trip to Seattle in next couple of weeks and wondering if anybody had any insights to share on the local card rooms.
Thanks... Sparty
Depends on what limit you wanna play. For 4-8 and 6-12 try Diamond Lils in Renton. For 10-20 try New Sonnys in Federal Way or the Hideaway in Shoreline. If you wanna play higher the only place is Muckleshoot in Auburn which spreads 20-40. All these are HE. For Omaha 8 try Lils (4-8 with 1/2 kill) or Sonnys (4-8 with a Kill).
Sparty,
What's your BR? I prefer 4-8 at Muckleshoot. There is also 3-6 at Kenmore Lanes just N of town. I don't like the game there too much (too loose for me) but its the lowest limit you can play around here. They have 2-4 sometimes too. I haven't been to the places in Renton or Federal Way but I trust ATWOOD on them. Hideaway can be good, I hear. Get's kind of wild at times though.
I play in a pretty sweet home game sometimes too. Low limit, but solid players all around. Send me an email when you are going to be here.
Must be a crazy week for Sparty's.
KJS
Does anyone here play the horses over the net? Youbet.com provides that cabability but not knowing too much about that sort of thing I am wondering about all sorts of things. Such as: the legality. The ingetrity. I understand they must have your Social Security Number--that scares me.
If anyone has any pertinent information about this type of thing I would love to read about it. It would be SO much more convenient to play the horses from your home computer and cut out the commute and all the associated hassle.
If that worries you, then use an offshore book. Many are now offering bets, but they lack the information on youbet. I do know they got seized by the LA district attorney for investigation of their activities being illegal and that office was shut down. Legality, well who cares really? Most of us here are engaged in technically illegal activity.
I use a UK bookie and can bet on horse, golf, tennis, fights, etc. they get your money in US$ and convert it via a credit/debit card and can credit it back to you when you want.
The service is great with summaries of bets and quick access. I recommend it.
http://www.ukbetting.com/
There's a 6% charge to put it on your credit card and add that to the vig and the interest on your cc if you don't pay it all off. You can send in a check but it takes about two weeks to clear. If you are into it I would just watch for a while but you can call them and ask all these questions that you have there is a toll free number. It charges $6 a month or something like that. They give you a free 30 day trial if you have the time it's nice to make the bets in the privacy of your own home. They also show the races right on the computer which I like the best. I decided against getting it because I'm just too busy to make it worth my while, but if you have some time and don't mind paying the extra's go for it. I figured if I bet $500 a month it would be worth it to me. They are making improvements on this daily so what you see today may be much better in a year.
paul
Recently on rgp there is a thread from a guy who doesn't like them and neigther do I. I think cells should be banned - they slow up play and can be used to cheat with.
What's to say two guys aren't talking at the same table or maybe he has a pal looking at hole cards from behind players. Foreign languages and quiet talk who'd know. I don't like it one little bit. I say ban cells from poker tables specially in tournaments.
BTW I don't ever bring my cell in casinos when I'm there I don't want to be bothered.
This is not a good idea. In the bay area you would be talking about almost the whole table.
The cell phones allow various people to "tele-commute" and are a major reason why they can play at all.
Also the the cheating is not going to be very workable I believe. Too obvious and hard to pull off in the time frame without just disturbing the cheater with a call in the middle of a hand.
D.
I agree with you Rounder, to a point. And I also think David has a good point, too.
Personally, I think it is nothing if not plain rude to get into long-winded conversations at the poker table while trying to play a hand. It often slows up the game and becomes a distraction for others who are trying to concentrate on the task at hand. However, if someone has a true need to be accessable while out playing poker and his option would to be to stay home if the cells were banned completely, the industry is probably better off with that player's fanny in the chair than not. Here is what my policy would be:
1. No one may initiate a call from the table. If you have to call someone, you must step away from the table.
2. If a call comes in between the play of a hand, you must also step away from the table to take the call. If you miss a hand or two, too bad.
3. If a call comes in during a hand, and you are not in the hand, you must step away from the table to take the call. This is just common courtesy, but judging from how often it happens, maybe it's not so common anymore.
4. If a call comes in and you are involved in the hand, you may briefly handle the call. However, if the practice is frequent, and the player abuses the privilege by engaging in long-winded conversations,or slowing up the game significantly, the House reserves the right to curtail a player's phone privileges.
Yeah Dunc - not bad but I am more worried about cheating than anything else. Guess i am paranoic but if there is an edge out there some dirt bag will take advantage of it.
At Turning Stone Casino in NY, cell phones are not allowed in the gaming area. I believe it is illegal in fact.
But don't you think that those players who aren't cheating with their cell phones are playing just a little bit worse since they're concentrating on the conversation?
I hear a lot about rec.gambling.poker, but I can't figure out where it is/how to get there. Could someone please help me?
Thank You
Gamblerbri
Go to remarq.com and type in "poker".
If all else fails just go to favorite links at the left of your screen here at 2 plus 2. it's right there near the bottom of the page.
If you have netscape or explorer as your browser, just type news:1.2.3 or whatever in the location edit control.
JG
anyone read Comp City by Max Rubin? is it worth 8 red checks? are the strategies doable/applicable in today's casino environment? any comments are welcome.
A very good read,even if you don't use all the tactics outlined in the book. Very entertaining.
Skimmed through a third of it while perusing the bookstore a month or two ago. Interesting book, but there are some problems.
First, it's not going to teach you how to beat any games. It gives a very very basic blackjack strategy guide which he admits will still give the house an advantage.
Problem is that if you actually card count, you don't want to be hanging around the casino long enough at any one time to get the "aces" status.
Secondly, to earn comps better than the free buffet and t-shirt style, you've got to be putting down $100 a bet. I don't do this. I don't have the bankroll to bet that much or withstand the SD that accomanies it, but it's what's required for the "ace" comps.
But assuming you do, then I suppose it's a good book. I couldn't say because I haven't really read it nor have I put any of his ideas into practice.
Dan
In a nutshell,the book is geared towards those who already know basic strategy.It is not a book telling you how to make money,but how to get better comps with the money you are gambling with at blackjack.If your counting,I would not recomend playing for comps. If you are using basic strategy only, then this book may be for you.
I've been on the look-out for a poker table -- one with folding legs (I figure maybe if I add some class to my home game my friends might abandon their "junk"-poker-luvin' ways!).
Most of the ones I have seen run in the $300-$350 range. I want something nice -- nothing flimsy -- but not top of the line. Does the above price sound reasonable?
Thanks.
Jon I.
nt
How did you amass a 100 grand bankroll without knowing the answer to this question? Did you do it playing 2-4 for a few decades without moving up??
Anyway, I would guess the best way to go about solving your problem is to go play the largest game you can find, and to insure a win, wait for premium, group 1 and 2 starting hands. Maybe play a few hours of 100-200 or 200-400.
good luck. . .
...so waiting for premium group 1 and 2 starting hands for a few hours can insure a win...
Now I know what I've been doing wrong! Thanks! This forum is great!
~DjTj
Insure? No. But it can cut down on variance. Look, the guy is asking a silly question, so I figured I'd give an answer. Tell you what. . .I'll change my answer. Here's my new solution for making 1,000 with a 100,000 bankroll in a single session. Forget this poker crap and follow these easy instructions:
Step 1. Go to a roulette wheel and put 1,000 on RED. If you win, go home. If you lose, go to step 2.
Step 2. Put 2,000 on RED. If you win, go home. If you lose, go to step 3.
Step 3. Put 4,000 on RED. If you win, go home. If you lose, go to step 4.
Step 4. Put 8,000 on RED. If you win, go home. If you lose, go to step 5.
Step 5. Put 16,000 on RED. If you win, go home. If you lose, go to step 6.
Step 6. Put 32,000 on RED. If you win, go home. If you lose, you're SCREWED.
PS- if you hit 0 or 00 at any time in this process, figure out the correct next bet.
That's exactly what I was going to suggest. In fact, we can't really answer it unless you tell us how much of a chance of losing it all you are prepared to accept. It'll be very hard, if not impossible, to cut the chance of going bust below 1%. Unless anyone can tell me otherwise ...
Andy.
I never said i was good at poker. I was just wondering what sure-fire "gambling" ways there were to turn $100k into $101k within 12 hours or so.
"I was just wondering what sure-fire "gambling" ways there were to turn $100k into $101k within 12 hours or so."
There is no such thing as a Sure-Fire Gamble. That's why it's called Gambling. The only guaranteed way I can tell you to make a grand on your money is to take it to the bank, put it in a 60 day CD, and at an APR of 6% or so, you'll make about a grand. It won't be 12 hours, but it's guaranteed. . .by the US government no less.
Depends on if you really have to have a grand or go bust. If that's the case, forget poker, and go play craps or BJ, and bet it all every time until you're there.
There are some people that prescribe to this theory. How about the guy who bet $2.4million on the Niners to win $300k in the Super Bowl? Boxing fights can occasionally bring these people out provided the book puts a line on the fight. You would be amazed how many briefcases of money come out when you have a 12-1 favorite fighting. The Mirage books put up money lines on pretty good sized favorites. Wait for a 7-1 favorite, often a top team at home against a mediocre opponent. Bet 7 grand the first game to win the 1 grand. If you lose bet $56k on another game with the same odds. Well it might take more than a day and you in a rare situation could lose, but I like your chances better than almost any other method. Face it, there are no sure things. However 7-1 home teams in the NBA are pretty close to it.
Hell she turned $1000 in to $100,000.
The 1st battle ax sould be able to do the reverse with ease.
:-)
Give me $99K then you'll have made $1K out of the $100K bankroll.
- Andrew
Try a horse-race with two solid but not odds-on favorites in a classy field of 7 or 8, running a distance of 6 furlongs (cheap horses, big fields, and route races have much less reliable outcomes). I'd look for an exacta price in the neighborhood of $20 and bet a $50 box on the two favorites in the exacta. Chance of success for a great handicapper: approximately 35-45%.
If you can find a place that offers 100-1 odds as Binion's did a few years back, I'd put $1 on the Pass line and the remainder behind it as odds. Chance of success if betting 6 or 8: 45%
A single-table satellite would also be a good investment for some players (I'll assume you would pay the vigorish on the satellite, investing probably $110-$115 for a potential $1040-1065 return). Chance of success for a great player: 30-40%
The man has 100,000 and you have ways for him to make a dime with $100. You have it all backward. His best chances are to take near sure favorites and then try to pick up the dime laying the odds. Granted it will not always work, but I still like my big money line favorite bets in the NBA. Look for a home team with at least some motivation playing as a 10 point favorite or higher. These teams lose outright about four times a month I would guess at most.
*laugh* Good point -- I overlooked the "K" in the bankroll (although the way I look at things, it makes more sense to make 1k out of 100 than 1k out of 100k).
In that case, I'd recommend going into a 100-200 game at the Commerce, play tight, then quit after winning a hand or two.
As far as prices though, he'd get a better return on his money playing the Pass line or Don't Pass at craps than betting sports or the horses.
Well once again you are looking at closer to even money opportunities. I truly think he is looking for something more like what I suggest, with a very high probability of winning that $1K. Also I made a typo, I meant these types of teams lose 4 games a year, not month.
You'll need a place where you can bet high enough - but Las Vegas casinos like whale action, so this shouldn't be a problem. On your first blackjack hand, bet $1000, and play basic strategy. If you win, you're there. If you lose, bet $2000. If you lose that, bet $4000, and so on. Unless you lose your first six hands, you'll be $1000 richer.
take the 100 large in cash with you to the bellagio. get in a big game that has about a 200 dollar ante or such. flash the money. say to the floorperson you need 100,000 in chips. then say im in the pot. after they deal you in raise the pot and most times you will win the antes. you now have about 1,000 or more. go home. if you get called grab your 100 large and say im getting the chips myself and dont turn another card till i get back. then run off. the idiots will wait till doomsday for the liveone to return.
Hahaha ... sounds like the man speaks from experience ;-)
or do like i used to do. go into pool rooms and lay 500 to 1 that they cant call a coin flip 13 times in a row. all the bust outs would be taking it in the hopes of getting 500 and only losing a buck. sometimes id leave with so many dollar bills my pants wanted to bust. that was 35 years ago so maybe they are a little smarter now. but if i ever got broke id go back to the old sure and fun ways of getting a bankroll.
Why 13 Ray? Is that the magical number that insures victory?
Well 13 correct calls in a row would be a 1 in 8192 event. You could go down to 9 times, and still have an overlay at 511:1, but that's kind of tight.
Maybe you could go easy on them and just ask them to call it 10 times. I'd actually think going the other way would be more fun. Offer them 1000:1 on calling the 13 flips. Of course, you'd have to bring the cash to back it up.
- Andrew
I posted below this week about a hand I had AhQd, and the flop was KcJs10h, and the turn was a 3h. We raised each other heads up untill my opponent was all in. He had Qh9h. With one card to come, I had 78% chance to win the pot. If I understand correctly, 78% means when the sample is big enough, I should win 78 times out of 100 in everage if this same hand plays repeatedly in the same situation. Since this is not an usual event (mostly chopped the pot), does it really worth a unlimited raise if you know you may be against a draw which can be completed and beat your hand.
When I saw his hand on the turn after he was all in, I had the feeling that I was gambling on the last card since I have put a lot of money in the pot already. I did not have the feeling that I was a huge favour. My feeling was either flush comming or not comming. In other words (in retrospect), the outcome of this given hand will belong to either 22% chance of lossing group or 78% chance of winning group. So is it a 50%-50% chance for the outcome for this given hand to win or loss for that particular river card? I am confused here. Comments are appreciated.
regards,
jikun
Hell, if we're going to do movies we might as well do music.. ABSOLUTLELY NO GREATEST HITS OR COMPILATIONS ALLOWED, AND YES, "HOT ROCKS" IS A COMPILATION! Even live albums are borderline; The Who - Live at Leeds qualifies, but a heavily overdubbed live compilation like KISS Alive II, does not.
In no particular order:
1. Exile on Main Street - The Rolling Stones
2. Wish You Were Here - Pink Floyd
3. Physical Graffiti - Led Zeppelin
4. Powerage - AC/DC
5. Thunder & Lightning - Thin Lizzy
Note: TL is the all time most underrated band. All anyone knows is "The Boys are Back in Town". I've only ever seen one article on them in a black music magazine (VIBE), and like every other article on them it stopped with the "Jailbreak" album, the one "Boys" is on. Much better is the live compilation "Live & Dangerous" as the recording is far superior to the early studio albums, and then get the succeeding four CDs, "Black Rose", "Chinatown", "Renegade", and T&L. Stay away from the "Live/Life" album, though.
6. Nothing's Shocking - Jane's Addiction
7. Badmotorfinger - Soundgarden
8. Montrose - Montrose
9. Can't Buy a Thrill - Steely Dan
10. IV - Led Zeppelin
Any Counting Crows fans out there? I love "Baby, I'm a Big Star Now" from the Rounders soundtrack. Funny how my two favorite CC songs aren't on any of their albums; "Einstein on the Beach" is the other.
Big mistake in the new movie High Fidelity, per review in USA Today: John Cusack & friend list best first songs on side one of a record. "You Can't Always Get What You Want" is discussed. BZZZTTT! The songs on "Let It Bleed" are listed out of order on the back cover. Very sloppy research, kinda like the baseball cards used in Jacob's Ladder, or the Led Zeppelin reference in Fast Times at Ridgemont High, or....
"Gimme Shelter" is song one/side one and probably wins this category. YCAGWYW comes in second in the last song/side two category, behind "When The Levee Breaks".
Man, you are a classic rock radio station's wet dream! Well, I sat out on the movie list, since I knew all of my favorite movies would have been met by boos and hisses. I figure I'll stick my neck out on this one. Then again, I'm sure my list here will be met by a lot of "Who the hell is that?!"
1. Naked City - John Zorn 2. BloodSugarSexMagic - Red Hot Chili Peppers 3. Goldberg Variations - Bach, recorded by Glenn Gould 4. I Against I - Bad Brains 5. Innervisions - Stevie Wonder 6. Mahler's 9th Symphony - Karajan's recording 7. Bone Machine - Tom Waits 8. Odelay - Beck 9. Kind of Blue - Miles Davis T10. Paul's Boutique - Beastie Boys T10. Bartok's String Quartets - Emerson SQ recording
Sorry, couldn't keep it at 10.
Shooter,
Do you like Gould's vocalze? I get a kick out of it, and the CD really brings it out. Kind of Blue is now in my computer's CD drive at work--and throw your movies up there. No boos or hisses from here.
Regards,
John
Yeah, I don't mind the vocalization by Gould as much as most people do. Actually, if you've never heard his recording of the Beethoven Opus 109, 110, and 111 piano sonatas. . .he's literally singing louder than the piano. It's really something else.
As for my top 10 movies, here goes. . .but remember it's the middle of the night, and I've just gotten home from a losing session where I played like crap, so I may detract some of my choices or forget some that should be here:
1. Star Wars. As a Gen-X'er, I can say without hesitation that this was the defining film of my generation. I still want to be Obi-Wan Kenobi when I grow up.
2. Barton Fink, by the Coen Bros.
3. Ran, by Akira Kirosawa.
4. Baraka, by Ron Fricke. This is the Hope Diamond of cinematography.
5. Animal Crackers, by the Marx Brothers. Still side-splitting after 65 years.
6. When We Were Kings. I wrestled with an alligator, I tustled with a whale, I handcuffed lightning, threw thunder in jail!!
7. The Meaning of Life, by Monty Python. I know, most people pick Holy Grail, but this one still makes my jaw drop every time. . .the Penis Song, Every Sperm is Sacred, The Middle of the Film. . .just insane.
8. Casino, by Martin Scorcese. Again, I go not with Raging Bull or Taxi Driver, but this one. It's got it all: Innovative violence, gambling, DeNiro and Pesci at their best.
9. Life is Beautiful. Maybe in a few years I'll get over it, but right now I'm really fond of this one.
T10. It's a Wonderful Life. The only movie that makes me cry...Year, after year, after year.
T10. Annie Hall. I love watching this movie with non-jews. There are so many jokes they don't get, like when Annie orders a pastrami on WHITE bread with MAYO. Woody shoots her a glance as if she's just committed a crime. Flawless.
sorry, once again I couldn't keep it at 10.
i like lots of music so this will be real hard. i'll just not duplicate any of bill's of shooter's suggestions to make it easier.
led zepplin. 3.
bob dylan. highway 61 revisited.
pearl jam. 10.
pink floyd. dark side of the moon.
pink floyd. the wall. (which reminds me! i missed one of my favorite movies...)
band of gypsies. band of gyspies. (i've heard of larger double album of the whole show, but i've never run across it. it should be great. anyway band of gypsies is even better than the music jimi made with white back up muscians.)
stevie ray vaughan. live at carnegie hall.
metallica. the black album.
primus. the brown albulm.
primus. antipop.
doors. hard rock cafe/morrison hotel. (it may be 2 albums on one cd.)
and i know i said no repeats but i just got to throw in an extra vote for blood sugar sex magik. red hot chili peppers.
and if i'm going to have a repeat i might as well change my zep vote to zoso.
i would have some bb king and buddy guy up there, but all i have of them is compilations.
scott
Here's my list. Keep in mind that I'm a little older than some of you, and I'm sure I forgot something. By the way, if I was to do this list a second time, nine of the ten would probably be different.
1. Twelve Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus by Spirit
2. The Doors
3. Endless Boogie By John Lee Hooker
4. Mr. Fantasy by Traffic
5. The Resurection of Pigboy Crabshaw by The Paul Butterfield Blues band
6. Tim Hardin I
7. Lightnin Strikes by Lightnin Hopkins
8. I Got The Old Kozmic Blues Again Moma by Janis Joplin
9. Red by King Crimson
10. Steve Winwood
I might have known this was coming - I love to ROCK so this is easier than films. Plus I have my CDs to hand so I won't forget any.
In no particular order ...
Soundgarden - Superunknown (tho BadMotorfinger is good too)
Beck - Odelay
Jane's Addiction - Ritual de lo Habitual
Queensryche - Operation Mindcrime & Empire
Metallica - Master of Puppets (changed the world as we know it)
Tori Amos - Little Earthquakes (not even I can rock all the time)
REM - Automatic for the People
And finally some cheese to top off this meaty burger ...
Sugarcubes - Life's Too Good
Belinda Carlisle - Heaven on Earth
Andy.
Nirvana - Nevermind Beatles - White Album Juliana Hatfield - Become What You Are NWA - Straight Outta Compton Beastie Boys - License To Ill Wu Tang Clan - Enter The Wu Tang 10000 Maniacs - MTV Unplugged Liz Phair - Exile in Guyville Pearl Jam - Ten The Clash - London Calling
Well, I'll chime in with 9, so as not to duplicate "Exile in Guyville"
Townes Van Zandt- Rear View Mirror Grateful Dead- Workingman's Dead Beatles-Revolver Doc Watson and David Grisman- Doc and Dawg The Byrds- Sweetheart of the Rodeo The Plastic Ono Band- Live Peace in Toronto Bruce Springsteen- Darkness on the Edge of Town Funkadelic- Maggot Brain Jonathon Richman and the Modern Lovers-Precise Modern Lovers Order
Of course if you asked me tomorrow.......
1. James Gang Rides again Funk 49 (James Gang)
Dan got closest to correct by including London Calling, Nevermind, and Liz Phair. I think "Ten" sux, though, and that Julianna Hatfield is some schoolboy crush.
I think Exile on Mainstreet from the original post is a must-have, and would also agree with scott's call for Highway 61 Revisited, although I think Blonde on Blonde or Blood on the Tracks would be acceptable Dylan alternatives.
Haven't read them all, but here are some that you guys missed from all eras of rock music:
Pixes- Doolittle Replacements- Tim (or Let it Be) The Band- Music from Big Pink Graham Parker- Heat Treatment Beatles- Sgt. Pepper's (sometimes the most obvious choice is also correct) Bruce Springsteen- Born to Run (or Darkness)
These jump to the top of my head.
I'm gonna take a page from Ray Zee's book and dodge the tough choices:
The Clash - London Calling
The best rocknroll album ever made.
Bob Dylan - Blood on the Tracks
I'd cut off a finger to write one paragraph as brilliantly as even the worst song on this album.
The Who - Live at the Isle of Wight 1970
Renders Live at Leeds the 2nd best live album ever made. Tho live albums seem a bit of a cheat, this is needed to capture the greatness of the Who.
The Meat Puppets - Up on the Sun
The seminal work in the country/punk/acid-trip genre.
The (English) Beat - Special Beat Service
Synthesis of melody and rhythm and everything that made the 2-Tone scene great.
U2 - Joshua Tree
By a whisker over Achtung Baby, tho they're two completely different approaches. Eno deserves a lot of the credit for the aural grandeur.
Led Zeppelin - ?
I can't decide between Physical Graffiti, BBC Sessions, '69 in Flames, Live at the Fillmore, Listen to This Eddie, III, Destroyer, Presence, ... Well, I have A LOT of Zeppelin discs.
The Beastie Boys - Paul's Boutique
Wonderful pastiche of funk, hiphop and AOR sampling.
Judas Priest - Sad Wings of Destiny
The best heavy metal album ever made.
The Modern Lovers
Jonathan Richman was the kid who got the crap beat out of him in highschool before it was cool. This album takes his most honest work and surrounds it with excellent musicians.
REM - Life's Rich Pageant
My personal fave from their catalogue. I don't know why. Automatic for the People may catch up and pass it tho in time.
Beethoven - Symphonies 5 & 9 as performed by LSO
5 for tightness and economy. 9 for unchecked beauty. Like the difference between Charlie Watts and Keith Moon.
Now that I'm slipping the classical in, I might have opened up things too much, but I couldn't help myself.
JG
Okay, here goes:
1. The Beatles--the one with the white cover
2. Revolver--The Beatles
3. Exile on Main Street--Rolling Stone
4. The Big Gundown--John Zorn plays the music of Ennio Morricone (music from the Leone spaghetti westerns).
5. Anna and Kate McGarrigle--Rolling Stone once had this one rated number seven.
6. Pet Sounds--the Beach Boys
7. Mozart Quintet in A Major, KV581--Richard Stolzman version is fine; this was the music used in the final episode of M*A*S*H*--heartbreaking.
8. Buster Poindexter's first--can't remember title.
9. Kronos Quartet--hearing them play "Purple Haze" is a revelation.
10. The Harder They Come--Jimmy Cliff is a tough choice over Marley, but this one's always enjoyable.
x
HMMM, I forgot about Vivaldi's The Four Seasons....Guess I'll have to drop, ah, umm, er...
Man, this is so tough. Like Mason said, if I had to do the list over again, I might come up with a mostly different list, but...
1. Palestrina, Missa Pro Defunctis - Chanticleer recording.
2. Da Bomb - Greatest hits of Parliament-Funkadelic (I could easily put Sly and the Family Stone's Greatest Hits into this slot instead)
3. Lyle Lovett - Road to Ensenada
4. Ladysmith Black Mombaza - Shaka Zulu
5. G.F. Handel. Messiah - John Elliot Gardner recording.
6. Enya - Watermark. I don't want to hear about it - I dig that huge lush sound.
7. CSN&Y - box set. Partially because it contains many tracks from Stills' "Manassas" period.
8. Seldom Scene - The New Seldom Scene Album. I've got a bluegrass streak in me. Dry Branch Fire Squad is a close second for this genre.
9. Lux Aeterna - Songs of Marten Lauridsen. I recently discovered him - I think the coolest choral composer of the 20th century, save possible Arvo Part.
10. Pete Townsend - I don't know. Something by Pete Townsend. Maybe Tommy, maybe Lifehouse.
Note that I have nothing here by J.S. Bach. I trust that when I die, I will hear very little other than Bach played in Heaven.
Honorable mention:
Jimmy Buffett, Mozart opera, AC%DC, R.E.M., Jerry Douglas, Staple Singers.
Aretha Franklin, Frank Zappa, Jimi Hendrix, Chicago (first two or three albums).
Thanks for reading.
Regards, Lee
P.S. Mason's blues-heavy list shows the mark of true class.
Can always tell a Duke graduate....but you can't tell him much. Actually, your list is excellent. Stuff I had not thought of. Just finished listening to some Mary Black originals and some by Sandy Denny. nice stuff.
<< Beethoven - Symphonies 5 & 9 as performed by LSO
5 for tightness and economy. 9 for unchecked beauty. Like the difference between Charlie Watts and Keith Moon. >>
What a glorious world we live in that such a simile is both obvious and apt, if you just pay attention. Blessings upon JayGee for pointing out that a seemingly huge gap is but a step away.
Regards, Lee
nt
1. SAGA- Only album that I know about
2. Wish You Were Here - Pink Floyd
3. Led Zeppelin I
4. ASIA
5. THE FIRM
6. Sticky Fingers - The Rolling Stones
7. Still- Pete Sinfield
8. Point Of Know Return- Kansas
9. The World Became The World - Premiata Fornerja Marconj (PFM)
10. Are You Experienced- Jimi Hendrix
11. Hymn Of The Seventh Galaxy-Return To Forever (RTF)
12. Islands-King Crimson beats Red MM any day.
13. Green-Rapid Eye Movement (REM)
Next will be doing Z's 50 most popular beers from around the world.
paul
dem flying saucers dont work on my victrola but here is some regular old records you fella's overlooked
Black denim trousers and motorcycle boots
Wayward wind
Barnie google
Great balls of fire
North to alaska
Hot rod lincoln
Surfin usa
click clack
I'll throw my eclectic list into the mix, in no particular order:
John Prine - "John Prine" Warren Zevon - "Excitable Boy" The Beatles - "Sgt. Pepper" The Who - "Who's Next" Pink Floyd - "The Wall" Frank Sinatra - "In the Wee Small Hours" Bob Dylan - "Highway 61 Revisited" The Beach Boys - "Pet Sounds" REM - "Automatic for the People" Lynyrd Skynyrd - "Street Survivors" Bruce Springsteen - "Born to Run" The Rolling Stones - "Let it Bleed" Guns N' Roses - "Appetite for Destruction"
There are a lot of artists who should be on the list but never made one single great album, like Eric Clapton.
Damn, now everyone knows who 'Anon' is... (-:
Let me try that again.
I'll throw my eclectic list into the mix, in no particular order:
John Prine - John Prine I'm sure I missed a lot that could be included here. Picking 10 out of hundreds of great albums is tough.
There are a lot of artists who should be on the list but never made one single great album, like Eric Clapton.
Was off-line for the weekend, and most of my choices have been mentioned at least once or twice, but I want to put in my 2 cents worth anyway. Hard to limit to 10, and I'm sure I am forgetting some worthwhile candidates.
No particular order:
Led Zep II - First CD I ever bought. Toss up with IV.
Sergeant Pepper's - Beatles.
Has any album in the past 50 years had a more stunning, influential effect on popular music?
The Art of Tea - Michael Franks.
My personal favorite jazz record.
Pet Sounds - Beach Boys
Joshua Tree - U2.
Are You Experienced - Hendrix.
Does anyone else ever wonder the directions Jimi might have led us?
Road Apples - Tragically Hip.
Canadian content rules in effect.
Abbey Road - Beatles.
London Calling - The Clash.
Honorable mention to Sandinista.
Anything by Patsy Cline.
I only have the 4 CD complete works set, so I can't vote on any one particular album, but arguably the best pipes ever.
Hard to put my picks in order. Here's some from my two favorite genres.
Not Jazz:
Horse Stories by Dirty Three Jazz:
Love Supreme by John Coltrane There is absolutely no doubt that the best first song on side one of an album goes to Good Times Bad Times on Led Zeppelin 1!! Also the best song on a debut album and the song with the best drumming in R&R history.
KJS
it's damn good
scott
Paranoid might contend for best HM ever, but out of the 4 songs on side 1, that one is such a howler, it renders the album unlistenable without the ability to skip it. But the other 3 songs on that side do kick complete ass.
Here's my 5 fave HMs:
Sad Wings of Destiny by Judas Priest JG
Jim,
I would have to add:
Number of the Beast by Iron Maiden KJS
mention White Zombie and you mean you don't put right up there with the best HM their Supersexy Swingin' Sounds album, one with the playboy lounge cover ?!..
Wednesday, 3/29/00, there was a ten twenty game here in Washington State, with sixteen thousand dollars on the table. Every 5$ chip in the place was in action. They were drinking. Some of them are nuts. The rest of them are crazy. These people are having fun.
Driving by at 3 am, I did not have a clue. Drove right by the exit, knew there was a game brewing. I had won at the Hideaway and was going to bed. Damn! Maybe I should tip a dealer to call me on my cell phone? What to think.
I think it is an April fool.
Any truth to it?
He hasn't posted here in quite a few days!
D.
Yeah the prick has a long post on RGP re Barbara Yoon and takes a shot at me in it. If he is truely gone no skin off my nose he never gave me one solid poker idea and I am not sure he has played in a tournament in 20 years.
Washed up old jerk as far as I'm concerned.
Rounder, shut the fuck up. David Sklansky has never insulted you in any way. You are embarrassing yourself.
---
Is this a long April Fools exchanbe or are you guys serious?
D.
Nobody ever accused poker players of being real bright.
Brett
Hey you movie guys - any ideas for the sequel to rounders. Mike sets off for vegas and the F***ing Mirage. Where do we pick it up.
Mike wakes up in a cheap motel room all beat up money gone and he has to some how scrape up $220 to enter a Super Satellite so he can enter the big one get to the final table and have Doyle on his left and Amirllo Slim on his right. I'd put Sklansky in the film just to see him get his T8s cracked when he went for a gut shot straight with a 3 card flush cuz the odds were correct. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Nah, Mike makes it to the second to final table. Heads up with Johnny Chan, Mike goes all in with 3-5o. Johnny pushes his stack in without a seconds hesitation. He turns over KK.
"Nobody bluffs me out twice, bitch." he says to Mike as he pulls the pot towards him. Roll credits.
Dan
i hope his new camp will have a forum.
oh no! this will probably be deleted by the evil mason and that fiendish feeney.
no, not you paul. john. don't have me killed paul. please.
scott
I don't know, scott.....I think you have been hitting the sauce....(or the bong -- you are in NYC, yes?)
well, you made a good bet. but this time you lose. i was not at all under any influence. check out rgp.
scott
x
Here my list
1. Deep throat
2. American taboo
3. Talk dirty to me
4. Debbie does dallas
5. Private lesson
6. Behind close door
7. The best of Amber Lynn
8. A is for asia
9. Dinner for two
10. Girl next doors
jenna loves Rocco - has the best scene ever
Great weather, great food, great other stuff (know what I mean?), but bad cards (last night for me).....ah, so what. It happens. Actually AC is great for your head on days like this. The crowds are not too bad; the traffic is light; and the weather is absolutely extraordinary. Not quite shorts weather yet.
(Las Vegas) Poker author David Sklansky admitted today that he was wrong. This is the first time on record that he has made such an admission. Until now, the name Sklansky has been synonymous with perfection.
“It’s just so unlikely that something like this could ever happen,” the poker guru said from his Las Vegas home. “I just lost a bet to Izmet, and now I have to pay off my last-longer bet to Badger. I’m embarrassed to show my face in public.”
When asked to give the details of his mistake, Sklansky would say only “I’ll let others elaborate.”
(Tunica) A poker player was confined to a local mental hospital and placed on suicide watch after a spectacular loss. Abe Springfield of St. Louis, MO, was taken away from the Horseshoe casino in a straight jacket after threatening to harm himself.
Springfield had just lost $768 in a 20-40 Texas Hold’em game. Friends said this was his largest loss ever.
Although heavily sedated, Springfield was able to talk to a reporter by telephone from the hospital. “I just don’t think I can go on” he said.
oh no, my friend vince lepore was supposed to go there under that same name. but wait a minute, it cant be him as vince would have lost alot more than $768.
Ray, Ray, you never get it right. I said "Dusty Springfield" not Abe. Hey, did you notice that someone posted your girl friends picture and said it was a picture of me. They even used my name to make the post. Tell, Maybell it wasn't me. I hope she's not "MAD" (bad disease for her species). You know she is just an "UTTER" amazement to me. Why you Montana Cowboys, just can't stay away from the pasture, now can you. Mooooo...
Vince.
Thought it might have been your brother Cra
He's better off in the hospital than the "SHOE". He was asking for the hospital by going to the shoe better known as his "crying call." Sorry vl no nepc I guess for you.
I couldn't figure out how to post it here, so you'll have to copy and paste the link below onto your browser. I've lost a little weight since this photo was taken, but it's a very good likeness.
http://server142.smartbotpro.net/newcamera/index4.html
Vince
I'd do you.
nt
Pity.
vince
I see those trips to the spa have been working.
Brett
Hey Vince, Are you sure you don't have the photo turned 180 degrees the wrong way?
(Las Vegas) Noted gambling author Mason Malmuth was attacked yesterday in the Bellagio Poker room.
Although he rarely plays there, he had come by to talk to his friend. Suddenly, a man jumped on him from behind and began to pummel him.
“I read all your books and I still lost all my money!” the man yelled between punches. “I believed in you!”
He then grabbed a toothpick from the mouth of an unidentified player in the ten-seat at table six and stuck it through Malmuth’s ear.
Security officers were able to subdue the assailant, who wore army fatigues, a windbreaker, and a ballcap. As he was taken away, he screamed “PENIS” several times. Witnesses said he appeared to be crazed.
Asked if he required medical attention, Malmuth declined. He was seen later shopping for earrings in the casino gift shop.
I don't understand why the guy was mad. All I did was suggest that that since he was a big loser to pick up a copy of our book, THE PROFESSIONAL POKER DEALER'S HANDBOOK.
s
I am told Vancouver has smoking again, including the poker rooms.
The law was overturned. no other details.
SKP and comments?
This really sucks.
D.
Yep, the bad news is: the smoke is back. The good news is: it's going again. The Provincial law was overturned, but the municipality of Vancouver has stepped in. Come this Tuesday the air will be clear again. Though who knows what will happen on Wednesday.
time for the b.c. people to rally and do what it takes to stop companies from ruining lives.
Great! I already had my non-refundable ticket to go up there and was kind of dissapointed.
Let me know how it works out later this week if you are there.
D.
OK, it's Tuesday and, gasp, gasp, the air is still foul. Apparently the law is on the books, but hasn't been rubber stamped. Or something. In any case, the smoke will clear but it might be a week or so.
And, for the record, the game at the Holiday Inn is so good that you could play it up to your neck in sewage and still be doing the right thing.
I think its outrageous for my state government to threaten me for playing online poker when I do it purely because of the smoking issue. Isn't is amazingly hypocritical for a government to tell me that if I do something somewhere that my health is jeopardized its ok, but when I do it somewhere that I have no such problems and I am causing no troubles to anyone whatsoever, thats a major crime??? I also can't believe the apathy of the non-smokers in this town saying the casinos won't ever go for no smoking rooms unless they are forced to. Lets face it the customer is king in this town and if we all stand up like they did in AC and tell the management their wishes, the rooms may no longer be dens of smoke. I don't for a minute buy the argument that the rooms depend on smokers, last time I played a game in town there was one smoker and 9 non-smokers and we all made comments about how nice it was that he left for a break. Maybe we need figures the stature of Mason and Ray to lead a one day boycott of the all the rooms in town and also maybe get a room or two to organize a non-smoking day that we can all go and support the end of smoking in the poker rooms, or at least show there is enough of a market that some rooms can go smoke free like the Taj. I haven't played a live game in town in months and refuse to do it until the smoking stops.
i play very little or mostly not at all in any place that allows smoking. i wont go to the wsop this year probably either. i didnt go last year because of it. its sad that we have to make a choice to die young and play poker or have a chance to live to a ripe old age and not. and for those that think smoking and second hand smoke doesnt kill, ive lost most of my old time poker friends, most of which died in their 60's or less. i agree if the majority of the non smokers start putting up a real hassle the casinos will change in a heartbeat. they like money.
While second hand smoke may stink and be annoying, there is no clear evidence that it leads to cancer. The latest World Health Organization data showed no measurable correlation between second hand smoke and cancer, even in at-risk workers like waitresses who have have to breath it all day long every day. There may be a link to other health problems like emphysema, but the data is sketchy on that.
In any event, even if a correlation is found, the risk factor is very low.
Dan -- About a year and a half ago a guy in a cardroom offered to pay me 100k dollars if I could show him one good study that showed a link between second hand smoke and health problems. Though I didn't seriously expect him to honor his promise, I was at the UCSD Bio-medical library the next day. I found many studies (maybe 50 or more if you include those of lower quality) in respected journals that showed links mostly to cancer and heart disease. I presented the guy with what I felt were about the best 15 of those. Of course he hemmed and hawed and didn't pay.
Though I'm not familiar with the latest World Health Organization conclusions, when I looked into it it seemed clear that the evidence was mounting, and that within a few more years it would become overwhelming. I could be wrong, but there did at least seem to be a few good studies with clear results showing statistically significant links between smoking and heart disease or cancer. It takes time for the large number of high quality studies needed to be completed so that conclusions can be reached by looking at the overall thrust of the evidence. The study of second hand smoke is still a fairly new thing.
Here are a couple of links I posted previously on rgp. (I don't like to bother posting active links here, but these will do as copy-paste links.):
This is a single study:
http://www.circulationaha.org/cgi/content/abstract/95/10/2374
This is a meta-analysis of a number of previous studies:
http://www.bmj.com/archive/7114/7114pr1.htm
On another level, it just seems like common sense to me that breathing the unfiltered smoke off the tip of a cigarette, which is far higher in various toxins than the smoke the smoker intentionally inhales, has to be quite harmful. How could it be otherwise?
I'm familiar with some of those. Part of the difference may be in the underlying assumptions between the various studies.
If there is a link, it seems to me to be tenuous enough that there is still some debate over the issue in peer-reviewed journals. This is in contrast to the evidence for cigarette smoking and cancer, which was so strong that the data leapt off the page and smacked the early researchers in the face. Any study of even reasonably small populations immediately shows such a link. In the case of second-hand smoke, the risk factor is so small that it takes an extreme amount of analysis to try and draw data out of the noise.
Your comment about smoke coming off the end of the cigarette doesn't make any sense to me. Sure, if you smoked the unfiltered end of a cigarette you'd get more toxins than if you smoke the filtered end. This doesn't translate into much risk for people who may get the occasional whiff of that smoke in much diluted form. When a smoker inhales, he is drawing a concentrated cloud of the stuff into his lungs. My guess is that the number of particulates in a lungful of smoke from dragging a cigarette would be thousands of times higher (perhaps tens of thousands of times)than the number of particulates in a lungful of room air containing second-hand smoke.
Though I haven't played in a smoking casino in some time, my memory is that you often get pretty direct hits of that unfiltered smoke coming off the tip of a cigarrette. And in the more poorly ventilated rooms (often smaller cardrooms with low ceilings) the level of smoke generally in the air seems pretty high. Yes, the dispersion of smoke into the air will reduce the number of particles per lungful, but I'm not sure how it compares with the reduction brought about from filtration from which the smoker benefits each time he takes a drag. A couple of years ago Consumer Reports reported hugely higher concentrations of various toxins in the smoke off the tip as compared with the smoke sucked into the smoker's mouth. So anytime you take in that smoke fairly directly (as when it happens to be trailing right in front of your face for a short time - the kind of situation where you wave it away or ask the smoker to move the cigarette...) it's a shot of some pretty dangerous stuff.
This is in contrast to the evidence for cigarette smoking and cancer, which was so strong that the data leapt off the page and smacked the early researchers in the face. Any study of even reasonably small populations immediately shows such a link. In the case of second-hand smoke, the risk factor is so small that it takes an extreme amount of analysis to try and draw data out of the noise.
Well, I would hope that the effects of passive smoking would not have to be anywhere near as severe as those of smoking to move people to action. I don't want to be shot by a 44 magnum, but I don't want to be shot by a .22 either. At any rate, as I recall, some of those studies do seem to show fairly clear effects.
Here's a meta-analysis concerning lung cancer:
http://www.bmj.com/archive/7114/7114pr2.htm
Here's a press release from the World Health Org. (It cites the BMJ meta-analysis above, though it doesn't look recent enough to be addressing the conclusions you mentioned.)
http://www.who.int/inf-pr-1998/en/pr98-29.html
This one is kind of an interesting PBS interview with Kawachi, one of the authors of the study I posted above on passive smoking and heart disease:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/may97/smoking_5-20.html
Evidence of any smoking being a contributory factor in development of cancer is higher than we are led to believe. Remember the WHO (the organization, not the 60's band) specifically IARC who tells WHO what's up about cancer is absolutely sure (p<0.01) that smoking and cancer are causally related. The problem is politics and money stands in the way. The argument made by big tobacco is so preposterous that it is laughable in scientific circles. I will spare you the details. The only positive thing that big tobacco can say about smoking is that it is a "tradition".
The Best --In no particular order And the Worst (in order)
Post deleted at author's request.
"Course I don't drink much." Apparently not. That's pisswater. We drank a lot of that in college.
Now that is an Ivy League beer if I ever heard it. I think it is pretty good myself, but a bit too sweet for me. All the Phila. Ivy Leagueers drink Dock Street, Sam Adams and Independence
Ratso,
Yuengling's brewery has a great tour. They have a pub at the end, and they let you drink much more than the usual little cupfull. I had three or four Black and Tans.
Regards,
John
ZZZZZ....ZZZZ....snore....ZZZZ..oops, where is Yuenglings brewery? ZZZZZZ...
Bill,
Pennsylvania, somewhere south of Wilkes-Barre. It's the oldest privately owned brewery in the country--and it looks it.
John
my favorites are
kokenee beer from B.C canada
labatts blue canada
black dog bozeman mt.
moose drool mt.
black star whitefish mt. http://www.blackstarbeer.com/brew/live/frm.htm look for a live video cam and info about my hometown
my favorite is negro modello from mexico
but after 8 or 9 most just go down with little thought.
I do not drink much, I drink Miller most of the time. To me, they taste all the same, so it is hard to say one is better than the other.
regards,
jikun
Ratso,
I like it best after about the fifth beer.
Regards,
Rick
In the summer, the Hilton has Anchor Steam beer on tap at its Dizzy Dolphin lounge right on the boardwalk. It is only 3 blocks from the Trop where I play. The local newspaper even has coupons 2 for 1 for the beer. It's really a tough life walking over to the longue for a couple between games. Oh, did I mention all the fine ladies with skimpy little outfits who like to sit in there?
Ratso,
Don't know where you live but here in the Pacific Northwest there is a ton of microbreweries, some of which consistently put out quality brews.
See if you can locate some Scottish Ale by Bert Grant's (Yakima, WA) or anything by Boundary Bay (Bellingham, WA). Hale's (Kirkland, WA) has a great IPA and Pyramid's (Seattle) Hefeveisen is a perennial favorite. I am not a huge fan of Redhook (Seattle), but think their porter (Blackhook) is pretty good.
KJS
KJS That is a great lineup of micro beers. Does any one drink Ranier anymore? When in Federal Way early March I played at the Muckelshoot,had a good time and beat the game. There were 9 games going by noon. Pretty amazing!! Regards, Bill
Bill,
Rainier got bought out by Olympia who I think is owned by an even bigger brewer. The Rainier factory in South Seattle was bought by a coffee brewer named Tully's and now brews coffee. They still make Rainier in Tumwater, WA, but don't hold your breath that they'll keep it up. Truth be told, I drink more Budweiser than anything else.
Glad you enjoyed Muckleshoot. Someone posted here recently that they thought WA State poker was dying. I think they're wrong.
KJS
Gray's in Janesville makes one of the best Oatmeal Stouts in the country, and Sprecher in Milwaukee brews a wonderful Milwaukee Pilsner, Imperial Stout, and IPA.
well, i've only been drinking for a couple years and i've only been drinking beer for 1. but, in my experience, the best beer is whatever is the cheapest pitcher. i've never found out what the second best beer is.
do all you guys drink your fancy beer for the whole night? or do you switch to the pisswater around number 8 or so when it doesn't matter any more?
there's one bar around here that sells 4 dollar pitchers of bud ice a few nights of the week. i'd put that number 1.
scott
Back in my college years ('92-'96) I had a similar beer philosphy to you, scott.
I had the two six pack system. I got one six-pack of "good stuff" (I thought Corona was pretty good at the time) and one of swill (usually Miller Lite, but maybe even Keystone -- hey its got the specially-lined can!). You drink the good stuff first, and by the time you are ready to switch you really can't taste the difference.
Bars and parties -- go with the cheaper stuff. A bar in Chicago where I went to school -- you could throw down more than $30 to get drunk.
That is the big difference. I rarely drink to get drunk anymore. Taste (and yes, image) gains in importance over the years for many. Lately, my taste preferences have gone to martinis.
Jon I.
In years past a schooner of beer at the inlisted mens club was 5 cents.(fort ord,happy hour)for 25 cents a guy could have a big time. Then it was 10 cent limit with an army blanket spread over the pool table. Todays poker intellectual may not be intrested in this bit of trivia but it had an innecence about it that is long gone. Today, a state college sits on what was the Fort Ord firing range. This must be a positive statement of society today.
yeah, martinis... rick spoke highly of them too, a while back. i don't know. i used to drink basically anything. but now all i like is beer and whiskey. i used to poor a glass of vodka or something, but now i don't. martinis are tricky though. i never really liked gin because it was too oily. and vermouth just tastes wierd. rick suggested extra extra dry vodka martinis. which is basically vodka. with an olive. in a cool glass.
when i am drinking for taste, which is not very often, i turn to a good single malt. like, say, mccallan 18 or something. or even some quality blend like jw black or chivas.
scott
Martini option 1: Take a capful of vermouth and pour it into the shaker. Swish it around to coat, and pour out excess vermouth. Add the vodka and shake. Pour martini
Martini option 2: Add vodka to the shaker and shake. While shaking take a GLANCE at the bottle of vermouth (but not too long). Pour martini.
scott,
I pretty much go by the cheapest beer within reason philosophy also. Anyway, I'm going to officially enter middle age by telling you a "when I was your age" story.
When I was your age and in college we used to be able to go out to a club in Narragansett (Rhode Island) on Wednesday night, watch a band (no cover) and drink beer for $1 a pitcher.
A few years later I lived in a two bedroom apartment with a harbor view in Newport, Rhode Island and the rent was $120 per month. It was the biggest dump in town but it was safe and within walking distance of about 100 good bars and restaurants.
Rick
man, one dollar pitchers!! that's amazing. i can't get anything for one dollar. except a 20 minute phone call...
scott
If you want to drink while you're in Philly I'd plan on buying a a bottle of liqour and bringing it down with you, as it's going to be super tough to get liquor while you're down here. Speaking of that, I need to go on an errand tomorrow...
Mark
BTW...Congrats for sis
cheap beer and good pot*that's the ticket
scott,
Rick and I had a friend who was fairly adept at procuring free pitchers of beer. The trick was to walk over to a table full of people who had a few pitchers, pick one up, and pour a couple for those who needed refills. Then, simply walk away with the pitcher.
John
ps. The first six-pack I bought cost $1.35.
i'll give it a try.
scott
scott,
what's the name of that joint? I have a good friend who is doing his Literature Phd. at Columbia right now. He plays a decent hand of Hold 'Em and loves cheap beer as much as anyone I know. He found a $5 pitcher mecca there and thought maybe it was the same place. (A step up from the $3 pitchers of Pabst we drank as grad students in WA). If not, you two should still get together for a beer and poker session.
KJS
it's really 4.50. at the amstradam cafe. it'd be cool to meet him. have him email me or give me his address. or even have hime look me up in the directory. or i can look him up. sounds fun.
scott
Samuel Smith Imperial Stout (England)
Huh.. When I was in Wales it was Guinness or Murphy's Irish Stout. Guinness was always more popular, but I preferred Murphy's slightly sweeter, smoother taste.
Brings back fond memories.
Later, CV
.
i.e. www.gamblerhome.com. I haven't been able to connect to the site for the last couple of days??
Ben,
I just tried and couldn't link up either. I never liked their web site and have found it difficult to use. I would try www.conjelco.com for books. The owner of Conjelco (Chuck Weinstock) maintains this site and gives a discount on poker books.
Anyway, the Gambler's Book Store (brick and mortar version) is a shrine. I bought David's old books in 1981 before I even played serious poker and always swing by when I am in Las Vegas.
Regards,
Rick
I have found Conjelco even better than Amazon. Books are discounted and the service is quick.
Rick, I believe you are thinking of the Gamblers Book Shop(a.k.a.-Gamblers Book Club) when talking about said shrine in Vegas. I was there today picking up baseball logs so they are open for business.If you were not refering to the "GBC" then disregard.
Thanks,Howard
Howard,
Yes, I meant the place off Charleston Street in Las Vegas.
Regards,
Rick
Check here.
Sparty,
I take back what I said about their web site. It looks great right now.
Regards,
Rick
I was in Las Vegas last week. Great food, great shows, great games, and great restrooms too! This is my rankings of the top 10 restrooms in Las Vegas: 1)New York New York - a very charming presentation of the Art Deco motiff within a contemporary setting. 2)Main Street Station - I think putting a portion of the Berlin Wall right behind the urinals is a pretty cool concept. 3)Star Trek Experience (at Las Vegas Hilton)- If you have ever wondered what Bones and Sulu must have felt like while taking a dump, this is your chance! 4)Paris - Viva les poop! 5)Hoover Dam - Not exactly in Las Vegas but those dam restrooms are sure nice...and the dam view is magnificent! 6) Bellagio - In a town made of cardboards and plastic, the real brass is a relief. 7) Hard Rock Hotel and Casino - Cool industrial post-modern look. 8) Dessert Inn - Very classy...very classy, indeed... 9) The Venetian - Great ambience... 10)Barbary Coast - The traditional New York club look made me feel like I was in the movie The Godfather. Comments?
.
I've been on the look-out for a poker table -- one with folding legs.
Most of the ones I have seen run in the $300-$350 range. I want something nice -- nothing flimsy -- but not top of the line. Does the above price sound reasonable?
Thanks.
Jon I.
Jon,
I was surfing the net for poker tables a couple of months ago and I will dig the relevant information out when I get the chance at home (could be at the weekend). This was generally the price range I was quoted.
Andy.
Thanks Andy. I appreciate any info that you could have for me. I don't want to spend more than I have to for a decent table. I listed my e-mail if that is a better way for you to transmit any info.
I assume you checked out pokerchips.com
Paul
Paul,
I did. What a great site! I will definitely be buying chips there soon after I get a table. The tables looked like the same models that I have available to me 45 minutes North of Madison at roughly the same price. Therefore I don't know if it is worth the hassels of e-commerce (i.e., not knowing EXACTLY what you are getting and in what condition) and shipping costs to go through the site.
Jon I.
10. Grey Wulff 9. Pheasant Tail Nymph 8. Adam's Parachute 7. Joe's Hopper (works during salmon fly hatch, too) 6. Wooly Bugger (if all else fails) 5. Montana Nymph 4. Spruce Fly 3. Royal Wulff 2. Elk Hair Caddis (floats like a cork/easy to see) 1. M7 Mossback (I'll bt RZ would like to know)
add the
muddler minnow hares ear black ant shrimp nymph zug bug prince nymph
by the way i fished the missouri last weekend and the flathead this week and will go to the blackfoot reservation for some 8 pounders at mission lake as the ice goes. i will not catch the 7 or 8 pound bass that lives under my dock at my house even though he eats, i think, a few of the baby mallards in the spring.
add comparadun and diving caddis. I fished the Missouri three weeks ago,cold but no people,wonderfull.
Can't believe I forgot the hare's ear, it is one of my favorites. It's been too long since I've fished in Montana.
Never liked the muddler much, although you can fish it dry when you run out of hoppers. How was the Mo? I caught my biggest trout ever below Holter dam in October, 1989. A 28" hook-jawed, girthy brown.
Sage 9' 7 weight with a sink tip line, 6 pound tippet. Wooly Bugger. The heavy stuff or fall browns.
I let him go, of course.
Lets go fishing some day, Ray.
no self-respecting eastern flyfisherman would be without his "Joes Smelt" or "grey Ghost" or "mickey Finn" or the "Parmachenee"
ive used them too fishing in maine on the rivers and lakes for salmon, but largely nowadays those flashy flies have been repaced for trout by natural stuff.
These showflies are for the fisherman, not the fish.
thats where i fish on the river. around wolf creek and up to the dam. lots(a few) of rainbows no browns or big fish but id say 14 inches average. this time of year ill hit the clark fork by missoula alot and rock creek. my best fishing will be in libby on the kooenay river,but the big fish are on the reservation and lots of them, but you are fishing in lakes from a float tube. ill fish with you anyday.
10 pieces of Wonder Bread
Michael and Ray,
As a relative newbie to flyfishing I can't add too much to your lists (I am an Adam's lover, maybe higher than 8. for me). Still, the idea that there are other folks that love both poker and flyfishing warms my heart. I did a week fishing in Yellowstone NP and environs last summer. I got in a pretty swell little poker game in Missoula on my way home to Seattle. Flyfishing all day and poker all night makes for a damn near perfect day in my book.
KJS
I'v fished and played poker (mostly fished) in Montana for 20 some years. I rate the fishing excellent the poker just okay (low limit high rake). I'ts nice you found an enjoyable game in Missoula. I live in Missoula now and can assure you this is not always the case. Where did you play? In my opinion the best games are at the Lucky Strike., weekends 4-8 dealers choice, 10 % rake $4 max.
ED I,
I can't remember the name of the place. My lady and I just pulled off the road looking for a beer and I spotted a little sign that said cardroom. It was 4-8 dealer's choice though. One table joint in a bar with a diner in front and brick walls, if I remember correctly. Nice players, seemed like they played together all the time. At 30, I was the youngest there by 15 or so years, but the guys treated me OK.
I will look for the place you mention next time I am town. Might be the same room.
KJS
I was raised in Missoula, but haven't been back in years. I played cards mostly at Stockman's Bar and the Ox. The brutal rake was offset by the frequent drunks who didn't even know how to play hold'em. Kathy Kolberg (a fairly well-known West Coast tournament player) used to deal at Stockman's. Stockman's motto was "liquor up front, poker in the rear." Get it. Cowboy humor.
I also used to play in Helena and the Bozeman area alot when I was in college. Fished everwhere and also spent my summers working as a flyfishing guide.
Now I live in Greenwich Village, New York City.
I think Ray lives in Montana now.
Though I have lived in Misssoula for six years I have never played at Stocks or the Ox. Johnny B who ran the Stocks was recently killed in a car accident. I met Kathy Kolberg when she ran the game at the Silver Tip, good tourn player. Thursday I'm on my way to Bozeman to play in a small tourn, since I work weekends I can only play Friday's $60 Omaha Split. TJ, who ran the game at the Cat's Paw for 20 years now has TJ'S Cardroom. You may have played at the Cat's Paw.
I seem to remember that the guy running the game that I played in was from Moses Lake, WA and used to work in the aerospace industry. Sound familiar?
KJS
No. Last summer, to my knowledge, there was no 4-8 games in town, only 1-5. The 4-8 only recently started. I can't think of where you might have played.
Forum,
Can you talk to the Average Joe seriously about any subject that involves Money and Variance? Just wondering if you have had the same experience I've had, or if it's just me. Of course these are my favorite subjects so it is disheartening to me that most people I know, even ones I consider very intelligent, fall into one of two categories: The Nay Sayers; and the Degenerates.
It seems like the only people who I can talk to seriously about the Stock Market and Gambling are on this sight and a few (very few) others. This is very suprising considering the amount of people who Gamble and Play the Market.
The Nay Sayers will never believe I have an Edge at Gambling and that only Professionals should deal in the Stock Market. They just give me that patronizing "Yeah, O.K. Chris"
I do think some of this comes from not wanting to believe that a person can win at Gambling or Invest as an individual. If they did think that then they would have to admit that this is a subject they don't understand or would turn parts of their world and beliefs upside down. That would be too much to bear.
The Degenerates seem to believe that I'm one of them and want me to go play Craps in the Casino and Trade Options in the Stock Market using Technical Analysis. These people don't want to think about math and logic and usually I just have to just cut the subject short before I start to argue.
OK some people do know about profitable Investing, but usually their knowledge is lacking. Nobody seems to know about profitable Gambling.
Just kinda frustrating,
Chris
One technique I've used against people who just assume that all gamblers are foolish is to point out the many ways in which the average person gambles. For instance, saving for retirement is gambling. You are wagering every dollar you invest that you'll be alive when it it comes time to cash your savings in, and that your money will still be worth something. Going to a trade school is gambling that you will recoup your tuition, plus the lost wages of 2 or 4 years of school, after you graduate (this is a losing bet for a lot of people, who wind up not being able to find a job in their field and do something else). Starting a business is a gamble. There are lots of ways in which a person can spend his money on a future outcome with an element of risk but a positive return.
As for the degenerates... The best strategy is to just humor them. In my experience, you'll never get them to 'see the light', and trying to do so will just make them angry at you.
I find it's easier and more rewarding to just cut all the average Joes out of your life. Really. Life's too short to have low-IQ friends. This is partly selfselecting in that a lack of ability to suffer fools gladly usually manifests itself pretty quickly and then they don't wanna be around me....
JG
So that's why you don't talk to me when we play...
Is anyone else out there a Sopranos fan? They have a contest on www.hbo.com for the best line but there are only five choices and they are all from this year.
My favorite was from last year. Tony's teenage daughter Meadow walks into the kitchen and the conversation moves towards sex. Tony cuts her off and then she complains that this is the nineties and parents are supposed to talk about sex with their kids.
Tony stops her again and points to the window. He shouts: "Out there it is the nineties. In this house it is f_cking 1954."
Maybe you had to be there to watch it but it still cracks me up. Anyway, I voted for the line by Tony when he meets an overweight associate from a rival member of the family: "I think it's time for you to start to seriously consider salads." -- Tony Soprano
Rick
I love Sopranos, too. I actually won a small tournament because of Sopranos. It was the day of the season premier, and I was down to heads-up. The difference between 1st and 2nd was only $450, and I wanted desperately to leave and watch Sopranos. The other guy wouldn't make a deal. We were about even in chips and I put in a raise from the SB with A7s. He reraised me all-in. I would have normally mucked here against this guy, but wanted to get it over with, so I gambled. He had AK, flopped an Ace, but I made a runner-runner flush to beat him.
I still missed the first half of Sopranos, though.
How bout this line. Remember the bad terminator guy that got his ass kicked in the executive poker game? After Tony's crew moves in and ruins his sporting goods store, he asks Tony "how come you let me in that game, anyway?" Tony replies something like "It's like the frog and the scorpion. Its my livelihood."
I guess that's 3 lines.
Michael 7,
That poker game was fairly entertaining for poker on TV. What I couldn't figure out was how it made so much (if I recall it was over $100K in a few days) money for the house unless the rake was about $20 per hand or they were snatching the pot. The guests (other than the sporting goods guy) seemed to do OK and the mob players all seemed to get crushed. Of course math never makes sense on TV, even good TV.
These rich businessmen flew in to play in a dingy hotel room against mobsters. Does this happen in the real world and why would they do it? For the thrill?
Rick
Michael 7,
Didn't see the show you're refering to, but the story of the frog and the scorpion was used in Orson Welles's Mr. Arkardin (a.k.a. Confidential Report) and Neil Jordan's The Crying Game: a scorpion needs a ride across a river and asks a frog to carry him on his back. The frog says, "But you'll sting me and I'll die." The scorpion tells him not to worry because if he stings the frog, he'll drown. Of course, half way across the river the scorpion stings the frog. The frog asks, "Why did you sting me?" The scorpion replies, "It's in my nature."
John
Without looking it up, I recall that the line was "It's in my character".
Then Welles raises a glass "Here's to character, gentlemen" or something.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Cyrus,
You're right; I'm sure, then, the line changes from character, to nature in The Crying Game, and then to livelihood in The Sopranos.
BTW, do you remember the other story told: Welles talks about a dream in which the tombstones in a village are marked with dates like 1932-1934, 1914-1917, 1920-1921. He comes across an old man and asks about so many children dying young. The old man says that in our village we do not mark time like you do. Instead, the dates refer to the length of time someone has had a friend. Here's to friendship, Welles says.
Regards,
John
Well, I heard that one in a R.W. Fassbinder movie; the explanation goes that the tombstones have the total amount of time that the deceased was happy in his or her life, 5 yrs & 6 months, 1 year & 1 month , etc.
This is good, either way. All it takes to make good is steal and borrow with flair.
Simply one of the finest series I have ever seen. The lines are great. I personally like the "salad" line. Some critics say it glorifies organized crime particularly LCN, but on the contrary I think it shows the strife and problems of living the life of LCN
Ratso,
I saw it. The Bid Dude was the guy who needed the salads last season.
Rick
I love the last show. The announcer writes "For scenes from the next episode....fagetta about it"
Because lists seem to be in:
1) 3-6
2) 5-10
3) 10-20
4) 15-30
5) 20-40
6) 30-60
7) 100-200
8) 4-8-16 (spread limit)
9) 2-20 (spread limit)
10) strip poker (limit spread)
Obviously in no particular order.
Dan
1. 30-60 with blinds of 20-30
How about the wonderful games of Washington State. I used to play a game that was dealers choice and you could bet anything from a quarter to two dollars, totally unstructured. It really was like playing at home, no one would fold until they realized they truly had nothing! Most wanted to play Omaha, but sometimes I would call for Stud since they all seemed to be horrendous at that. One time I had AA-K and I was last up. Everyone had called to this point and I raised. Everyone called with one guy throwing in a raise. Eight handed we went. By fifth street my hand was AA-KAK. Not exactly much to worry about. I was being bet into! I raised figuring these people obviously would call along and they did. Well I then caught the A. So I raised on 3rd and I was betting and raising all the way with Aces and Kings showing and yet I still had 4 callers! I ended up getting called by two on the river. One guy proudly showed a straight, the other guy called with 3 eights. The straight claimed he had an open ender first four cards and finally got there on the river. I won like $150 off this pot, an absolute fortune at this limit, 75 max bets. This has to be a game Mason would think of in his nightmares...
my sister is so smart. she is a writer and artist. and she does all kinds of great things. but hitherto she had not had great success in the fields of math and science. but all that has now changed. storming on to the science fair scene, she siezed first place in the physical science catagory in the montgomery county science fair. this county, home to such luminaries as myself, alexb, and maniac mark, is renowned for having the top science students, and in fact the top students of any kind, in these great united states. she has now shown her dominance over all intellectual fields. let us give her a round of applause.
scott
is she related to e.e. cummings also?
if i am, doesn't she pretty much have to be?
scott
But the real question is Can she play hold'em....lol
Congrats to your sis...
MJ
1. Inauguration of the Pleasure Dome--Kenneth Anger
2. Even Dwarfs Started Small--Werner Herzog
3. Dog Star Man--Stan Brakhage
4. On the Top of the Whale--Raul Ruiz
5. Titticut Follies--Fred Wiseman
6. Solaris--Andrei Tarkovsky
7. L'Age D'or--Luis Bunuel
8. From the Diary of Jean Seberg--Mark Rappaport
9. City Lights--Charlie Chaplin
And risking it all here: Song of Bernadette (best tearjerker).
Gee, you guys make it sound like I am on a steady diet of "Smokey and the Bandit" movies. Actually I've seen quite a few movies with subtitles and I can even read them. But I've only heard of a couple of these. BTW, a few years ago I wanted to rent "Song of Bernadette" and it was my wife who stopped me. So there.
Hey John Cole if you are out there. Is #4 that same stupid movie you say is your all time favorite and the one that Andy and I would probably hate?
Rick
Rick,
But you didn't see S of B, did you? #4 is too bizarre to be my all time favorite, but, hey, I like submarine movies, too. Trivia: which submarine movie starred both Clark Gable and Don Rickles?
John
"Run Silent,Run Deep"
i haven't heard of any of these. but i do think the pleasure dome is likely an allusion to kubla kahn by coleridge. i am not sure what the movie wouold be about though.
scott
x
Hey Mr. Wrong Forum Man person sir.
I'm just wondering, given the topics I've seen put up here in the last few days, are there any subjects on this forum that you actually say SHOULDN'T be on here? I mean, other than sex, drugs, and...well, poker theory.
Dan
And the Exchange Forum is not listed as a sub-forum of the Theory and Strategy Forum. In my view, anything can be posted here, although ideally it is for the non-theory/non-strategy poker questions.
The General Theory Forum is my big project. I have slackened up a bit, giving the benefit of the doubt to those posts that have arguable theoretical merit if you look REALLY hard at them.
WFM
mmmmm.....pie
me too.
i also like sandwhiches. mmmmm...sandwhiches.
scott
CD's, movies, fly fishing,beers, now pie?????
Aren't we pushing it a little, here?
you are obviously a communist.
scott
Dunc, I'll have to assume its Duncan. Well, I think you need to hear some advice.
1) Watch out for MacBeth. I know he seems loyal, but he's got it out for you
2) It seems odd that you are against snacks in public, when I know for a fact that you a closet snackophile. Come out of the closet. Please. The world has changed a lot since you were so ashamed for having to come out over that "locker room" incident. It is PC thugs like you who prevent the rest of us from eating our snacks.
3) Mills Lane (the TV judge who I think you were named after) had a rousing address yesterday when he found for the plaintiff because the defendant said "There's no art to find the mind's construction in the face"? Come on Mills. Help me help you. Help me help you!
4) What do you want to talk about in other topics, if not snacks. I compiled a list
1. a list of four hundred self-proclaimed members of the United States Communist party found in the Department of Defense.
2. How eugenics can help increase the quality of our gene pool.
3. How stupid reverse things are (ie. reverse meteors, vampires, robots, super robots, and chinese robots)
4. instead of fishing with bait, fishing with bombs.
5. zima
6. Why we should render our electoral power onto a small cadre of worker's representatives, who will transform our country into a garden of eden. Don't read the previous sentence, we don't believe in god. Our garden will be a, uh, garden of, uh, hmmmm, I got it. who will transform our country into a garden of idiots.
I didn't want to start this, but now that I've been called out, as it were, the gloves are off.
Every night I have to drive right past Vi's for Pie's, the definitive pie store here in Edmonton. Killer creams, and fabulous fruits. Two, sometimes three times a week, the old Honda makes an involuntary right turn into their parking lot and $14-16 later, I get my fix. You schlemps paying $16 for apple crumble?
Vi's Top Ten:
1. Chocolate Cream. No explanation necessary.
2. Apple crumble. Enough cinnamon to start WWIII.
3. Bumbleberry. Mix of about five berries. May not be served without ice cream.
4. Strawberry. Best when the California berries are at the peak of the season. I get hard (arteries) just thinking about it.
5. Wild Saskatoon. You 'mericans probably have never even tasted Saskatoon berries. Hah.
6. Lemon Merengue. I've watched them grating and squeezing the lemons lovingly by hand in the kitchen. No mixes in this store.
7. Double Chocolate Pecan. About 8,000 calories a slice.
8. Peach. They usually only make it in August when they can get fresh BC peaches just dripping flavor.
9. Strawberry/rhubarb. The sweetness of the berry and the tartness of the rhubarb.
10. Any of their cheesecakes. I've never actually eaten an entire cake in one sitting. Well, it would depend on your definition of 'sitting'.
"Every night I have to drive right past Vi's for Pie's, the definitive pie store here in Edmonton." That's what's definitive in Edmonton? I'm glad my ancestors immigrated to a real country. "Killer creams, and fabulous fruits. Two, sometimes three times a week, the old Honda makes an involuntary right turn into their parking lot and $14-16 later, I get my fix. You schlemps paying $16 for apple crumble?" $16 canadian = $1.50 US? The only worse shit is the Italian Lira. "Vi's Top Ten: You guys better stay neutral, since your military probably couldn't defeat Iceland. "3. Bumbleberry. Mix of about five berries. May not be served without ice cream. I can't even count all the 5-star restaurants in New York, not to mention the many excellent international cuisines found here. But no Saskatoon berries. And no Harveys! How will we go on? "6. Lemon Merengue. I've watched them grating and squeezing the lemons lovingly by hand in the kitchen. No mixes in this store." Canada puts a 50% tax on mixes. That's if you have any income left to buy them with. "7. Double Chocolate Pecan. About 8,000 calories a slice." Yeah, whatever. How many minutes on the Stairmaster is that? "8. Peach. They usually only make it in August when they can get fresh BC peaches just dripping flavor." In August, once the ice melts... "9. Strawberry/rhubarb. The sweetness of the berry and the tartness of the rhubarb." Yum. I'll stick to sour mix for tartness. "10. Any of their cheesecakes. I've never actually eaten an entire cake in one sitting. Well, it would depend on your definition of 'sitting'." I don't know, these curling leagues sound pretty wild...
if you're reading this, good for you
ive heard of saskatoon berries. we call them service( pronounced sarvice) berries. they grow all over the place in my yard and in the woods in semi open areas. they are full of little pits and are bland tasting. even the bears wont eat them unless there is not much else. in the fall the pileated woodpecker eats them after they ferment and he gets drunk and swings around in the branches. i got fooled once in waterton nat. park. i was ordering breakfast from the canadian waiter and he kept telling me how great the saskatoon pancakes were. i asked what were those berries as i know them all and he said how they were canadian and wonderful. blah, blah, what crap. i got taken in, what a fool. yes, many americans have tasted saskatoon berries but spit them out.
Ray,
I think you need to take a lesson from AlexB and Dan here, and realize by telling old stories about how you had to pick berries during the great depression just to keep the Commie-Nazi's off your back, or something like that I just kind of skimmed it- when I get bored I make up my own post, you really hold your self up to ridicule by the newer, sleeker members. However, you did have one great point- pancakes. Swedish pancakes (note: not canadien, the only good thing to come out of canada was Gretzky, and he's dead now) are damn good. Where am I going with this? I'm hungry and poor and in college, and I need food and liqour. Anybody willing to supply either of those is a gentleman and a scholar, at least in my book. I also need a woman, and as my own efforts prove only slightly successful, I would appreciate someone sending my one of those as well.
Regards,
Maniac
Must be different Saskatoon berries. The real ones don't have any pits at all, and taste wonderful.
I spent all my summers in my youth on a farm 30 miles from Saskatoon. We picked Saskatoon berries almost every day, and I could never eat enough of them.
Thanks for backing me up here, Danny boy. If we're not careful, this could turn into another one of those Canada vs. U.S. debates we had going a few months ago.
Nah. Too easy.
they are not really pits your right but they are seeds (tiny). there are only 3 kinds of decent edible blue round berries that grow in profusion. service berries, blue berries, and huckelberries( which are blueberries but a little purple and are tart tasting). those are the prized berries and sell for 30 bucks a gallon. perhaps your smoking has ruined your taste buds(just kidding)
Are gooseberries included in this group?
What about Frankenberries?
Dan (non-smoker)
I liked your response Dan, but meant that as a serious question. About 20-30 yrs ago the US Gov protected large stands of Western White Pine around the borders of Yosemite NP in Ca,elev about 7 to 8k feet. This tree was very vunerable to white pine blister rust,a disease that could kill a pine within 2 years. Blister rust is carried by the gooseberry plant, from plant to pine to plant to pine, ect, ect.. Camps were set up in ramote areas, manned by students, football players,looking for a smmer job to eradicate the gooseberry plant.Do away with the carrier. The camp cooks made a wonderful pie from the gooseberry. During the 70s a cure was found for BR(Riebes)Today white pine is down in value and most pine is rust resistent. I never see gooseberry for sale at the local super market, does anyone?
not many gooseberries around. they are a purple black berry that tastes awful unless cooked for a pie. i cant eat them raw as they have some or alot of hair on the skin. as far as i know there is no such thing as a frankenberry in the u.s. all camp food is good as you are very hungry by the time its ready.
how about dingleberry pie?
ab
well, i am more of a sandwich guy myself. but i love my grandma's cherry pies. also, her other pies. but really cherry. everyone likes cherry the best. except my mom. she likes apple.
scott
Greetings:
There's a chance I may be moving to Seattle and I seriously need to know opinions on the poker rooms, rakes, games, and players. of the Seattle/Tacoma/Olympia, etc. area. Give me loads of feedback please!!!!
Thanks,
JPN in Madison
JPN,
I'll preface my comments by saying that I have been living in Seattle and Bellingham, WA for 9 years and playing poker in home games for 5 years and public cardrooms for 3. I only play Texas Hold 'Em. My BR keeps me at the 2-4 to 4-8 tables but I have friends who play higher so can offer a few opinions on the bigger games. ATWOOD and others can speak more specifically about middle limit games.
I think that Seattle poker is in a growth period and the area features a good number of well run, friendly rooms to play in. I live in downtown Seattle and know of 8 places to play (a total of about 50 tables) within a 45 minute drive of my house. The nearest is right on the border of Seattle City limits (no poker allowed) so its only a 10 minute drive away. The rooms vary from little spots in taverns and bowling alleys to the Indian Casinos such as Muckleshoot and Tulalip which are larger and feature tournaments, giveaways, etc.. and all the intangibles of casino poker (food comps, other gambling games, good wait service, freeroll tourneys, etc.). The lowest regular game in the area is 2-4 and Muckleshoot spreads up to 20-40. A new room just opened S of Seattle in Federal Way, which is one indication that the market for poker is growing. You can count on games going somewhere near Seattle every day between 9AM and 6AM and many tournaments to choose from.
The tables here use a rake, not a time charge. I think the average is 10% or $3. I heard recently that some places have $2 and know a couple take $4. Overall, I have not heard too much complaining about the cost of poker here being prohibitive. I think most people realize it is cheap compared with most California rooms. Unfortunately, most bigger rooms take $1 for a bad beat jackpot, a silly practice that I wish would cease.
As far as players go I think that they are better than average and think others would concur. Many of the people I meet in the cardrooms here are educated people who understand the game well and are striving to improve their game. (I might be biased here because I am overly educated and striving to improve MY game). That is not to say that you can't beat a 3-6 game as a relative beginner. There are still a number of regular losers, gambooooolers and rich fish who play poker here. Still, I have heard that the 10-20 and higher games can often feature people making a living at poker who can beat most competition. I have played against many regular 10-20 players at 4-8 tables and they show a high level of skill. When I go to Vegas and play 4-8 and 6-12 I find the games easier than the ones I play in Seattle. I personally know a couple people who make living playing poker along the I-5 corridor in Washington and they claim it is nice because the games are cheaper than LA but also harder to beat on a regular basis.
I could go on and on, but I won't. Feel free to email me with specific questions. I am part of a group of about 10 younger (25-35) folks who play together regularly and are all trying to improve and we would welcome more input and good competition. I would say that if poker is the only thing keeping you from committing to living here don't let it stop you. You'll find it a nice complement to the city life. If you are concerned about things like rent and traffic, think again. Traffic here is god awful and the rent market is getting way out of control.
KJS
KJS,
Thanks for the thorough breakdown concerning my Seattle poker question. You've verified allot of what I somewhat knew and heard, and what might be expected. My poker playing would be complimenting airline work so your info was quite appropriate regarding the limits. As well, I know what you mean where tough local games can make you competitive in Vegas in the lower limits. Let me throw out another question for: How common are 7-stud and Omaha Hi-lo in Seattle?
JPN in Madison
JPN,
I don't have any experience playing 7CS or Omaha, but do know I have seen it played here. Muckleshoot regularly spreads 7CS. I have heard they have spread 08, but I have never seen it there. Come to think of it, I have never seen it anywhere around here. The smaller rooms I play in only have Hold 'Em. I would guess that Tulalip Reservation has 7CS.
KJS
Diamond Lil's in Renton (20 min. drive south of downtown Seattle) has O8 nights and weekends. I think it's 4-8 with a kill. I would also agree with KJS that the games here are generally tougher than Vegas, but they are still beatable.
Omaha games are spread in the littler cardrooms (taverns/bowling alleys) all over the state, with Tacoma and the eastern part of the state being particularly good areas to find such games. Muckleshoot spreads several 1-4/1-5 stud games with a .50 ante AND a $1 bring-in, a very high ante structure for such a small-limit game. Off the reservations, game charges are very reasonable. Those places that still charge time collections are limited to $5/hour. The cardroom in Tacoma I played in in January spread a great 2-3-4-5 Omaha/8 game with a $3/hour time charge.
Greetings:
I just got back from Tunica, of which I happened to stumble upon a major tourney with all the names present, and just want to thank everyone for the information. By the way, if you haven't been to Tunica, give it a chance. I had a great time and the poker is good. Stay at the Grand Casino or the Horseshoe, but hit the Horseshoe and the Gold Strike, especially the Horseshoe if your a Hold-'em player. The Grand has everything.
Back to Seattle now, I plan on being out there for about 3-4 days in the coming couple of weeks (I work for the Airlines-potential transfer, whereever I move to I must have poker close. I'm sick of driving two hours to the nearest poker room, and I'm especially sick of driving home after playing for 8 hours.) So, I'll be checking out Seattle. Now, do the Indian Casinos in Seattle have attached hotels so that I can stay comped/reduced rate and near some poker when I'm not being the tourist??? Will Muckshoot meet these needs??
Moreover, which poker rooms are a must visit for me within this time in the Seattle area, a stud-Omaha hi/lo player??
Thanks again,
JPN in Madison
I think I saw an ad a few weeks ago for a boigraphy of Stu Ungar. I'd like to read it, but can't find anyplace to order it on the web... I've tried Amazon, Gambler's Book Shop, ConJelCo, etc.
Any Thoughts?
Thanks, Ryan
I know that Nolan Dalla was writing one, but don't know if that is the one you are referring to. You can contact Nolan through RGP or threough the Cardplayer website. Hope this helps.
now that you mention it, I think Nolan is the author.
thanks
Young talented guy has no selfcontrol - destroys himself - not so unique these days.
I think I'll give it a pass.
I'm taking a trip up to Foxwoods for their upcoming tournaments.
Would it be worthwhile to go to Mohegan Sun? I'm looking for good side games in the middle limits and even pot limit.
Also, is there anything to do up in that area besides play poker? And I don't mean play the slot machines.
go eat breakfast in mistic seaport at the shack, a little place as you enter town. eat pizza at mistic pizza. lousy pizza but the movie was made there. look at wildlife by the ocean and there is a good wildlife center around there as well for birds with a nice walk. if you like animals in captivity there is an aquarium in town. go fishing. lok at the sign at the entrance to town and then tell me how to spell mistic.
.
Normally, I would say that it's worthwhile to go to MS while in town. Most of the year, it's the only place for a 20-40 HE game. However, during tournament time, all of the bigger games will be at FW, and there will still be plenty of smaller games. Also, the ring games are SIGNIFICANTLY better during tourney time at FW, and I cannot confirm that this is (or is not) also true at MS. In sum, stay at FW for poker during the tourneys, go to both the rest of the year.
As for other activities, you need to give us an idea what you're looking for. If it's nightlife, you can fogetaboutit. If it's historical or family-oriented, then yes. Also, Providence, New Haven, and Hartford are each 45-60 minutes away, and are much larger towns that might offer what you're looking for. There are some "juice bars" nearby (read --strip clubs--), though I don't know exactly where (really).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Forgot to answer the other ? - Things to do -
There are signs in Ledyard and other nearby towns, letting you know that they were founded centuries ago.
Yet, hundreds of years later, still no Starbucks, Borders Books, etc.
What's up with that?
If smoke bothers you MS is trying non-smoking on weekends only. Might also give you a break from the menagerie of FW.
paul
Take,
As others have said so famously--it depends. Providence has many good restaurants: XO on North Main, Hemmenway's (seafood) on South Main, Italian on Federal Hill, and Al Forno downtown. If you're 20-35, the Providence downtown area has good spots for live music--The Call and Lupo's, and many alternative spots. Newport, less than an hour away, has the great summer cottages of the rich and famous, and the bars are packed on weekends. It's better to visit Newport during the week, less crowded, and you won't have to worry about driving over the bridges with the rest of the drunks. If you state your preferences, we might give more specific recommendations.
John
Thanks to everyone for your suggestions! I'll need other things to do during the Omaha tournament or if I get really stuck or if too many bad beats come my way and I need a break.
Why not invest 15 minutes , drive over there yourself from Foxwoods,and form your own opinion?
some of you( paul feeney anyway) are in dire need to learn a little about bears. there are eight species of bear and two live in the continental u.s.(brown and black) no polar paul.
1. brown or grizzly
2.polar
3.panda
4.black
5.asiatic
6.sun
7.sloth
8.spectacled
1. brown or grizzly: continually whizz and moan about bad beats. usually seen wearing "members-only" jackets and checking the stock prices on overhead monitors.
2. polar: otherwise known as a typical las vegas divorcee. usually seen with shellacked hair.
3. panda: plays for fun. usually seen drinking heinekens and hemorraging large quantities of chips.
4. black: few poker players amongst this species. plays a loose gambling style.
5. asiatic: plays a wild aggressive gambling game. some members of this species are extremely good.
6. sun: non-playing poker species, likely allergic to the smell of stale cigarette smoke.
7. sloth: otherwise known as a railbird. commonly found mooching comps and buy-ins. fond of the buffet table and cheap tennis shoes.
8. spectacled: this species can be found wearing copious amounts of gaudy jewelry. apparently successful player, if gauged by the weight of gold found around its neck.
1) Koala
2) Care
3) Billy Bob
4) Berenstein
5) Bare
6) The Three
7) Circus
8) Teddy
...
Bill Clinton, the PANDER Bear
Gummy bear, sexual harrassment bear (well, panda, but still...), and the bear bear from the movie the bear, starring the bear.
And none of them play poker. I mean, poker? I barely even know her!
I am staying at the Phoenician in Scottsdale. Where should I go to play? Ft. McDowell?
Casino Arizona on 101 and Indian Bend is closer and better run house.
How about the No Limit Holdem tourneys - are they on Friday (at Casino Arizona Indian Bend). The website only shows March dates. How good are the tourneys, etc. With respect to live action, can I expect to have a good middle limit (6-12 thru 15-30) game all night (through 6 am) on Friday nights. Thanks
Yeah all the action you want. The 4-8 game is hyper-action but you wil find 10-20 and 20-40 7/24.
The NL HE tournament is on Fri 11AM Mon Wed. Limit all these $30 buy in and limit of 100 players sign up is fron 9:30 and usually sell out by 10:15. Tues Stud and Thurs Omaha same deal.
Tues/Wed tournament is Limit HE $100 buy in limited to 200 players when 1/2 the players are knocked out game stops and starts over Wed night and is NL HE add on of $100 for T$1000 chips is allowed. All CA tournaments are very well and fairly run by Paul Lord the best tournament director in the south west.
Mon noon is NL HE at Gila River 25 buy in and one add on for $20 - I'd forget all Ft McDowell tournaments as they really don't want to have them and are poorley run and the rules will blow your mind - do your self a favor and just skip The Fort it ain't worth it.
I play at a small sat morning tournament at Harras in Maracopa 25 buy in with no rebuys limit HE wiht knock outs. Very soft and fairly easy tournament well run.
Sorry, I didn't get enough sleep last night.
Where? Why? After some 2000 days chasing trout(mostly Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem) my most memerable days have been spent on The Henrey's Fork in Idaho( Last Chance, and Box Canyon areas).Difficult, challenging and large fish. NO,I have not fished all the great waters of the West. I my memory serves me, it took me some 50 0r so days to hook first fish there. I wish I had the same drive and determination when I played poker.
Yellow River located in I.P. Daily's backyard.
Paul, I urge you to follow Frank Zappa's advice " Please don't eat the yellow snow".
My favorites in Montana, in order of preference
1. Smith River (not large fish, but plentiful- i have had a few 50+ days catching browns and bows 12-16" on average with an occasional 20"+; unbeleivable scenery and solace, especially for float trips)
2. Missouri River (below Holter Dam; really fishes like a bunch of different rivers, or even spring creeks depending on the ype of stretch you are targeting.)
3. Madison River (a fish Behind every rock and boy do they have shoulders)
4. Rock Creek (a mini-Madison type stream, once hooked myself there in the face with a size 16 Adams and had to go to the emergency room to get it removed; but not until I was finished fishing, of course)
5. Little Blackfoot (I remember trespassing on some "secret" spots sorrounded by private land where you could catch 3-pound browns in 18" of water)
6. Clark Fork (seems to be off and on from year to year and my Pop says it has been fair lately; maybe Ray can elaborate)
7. Dearborn
8. Jefferson
9. Blackfoot (A River Runs Through It)
Now *here's* an area where Mason can't disagree with me :-)
Helton Creek, Helton, NC. Huge trout? No. Tons of trout? No. All beautiful native brookies? No. 200 years of family, massively secluded stream in the NC Blue Ridge mountains in the front yard of my grandparents' vacation home, with a handful of rainbows and browns that were stocked and not caught, and a precious few native brookies? Yes. Will they rise to a #16 Royal Wulff? Yes, on occasion. Do I put 'em back? Always.
I get teary just thinking about it.
Regards, Lee
P.S. I was reading John Gierach the last few days, while sitting on a rock in the Truckee River, watching the trout. Is this synchronicity or what?
P.P.S. Thanks JayGee
A river,good book,afew rising trout,sounds sweet.
I have spent about half my fishing days on the upper Madison. I worked seasonally for the Forest Service for about 18 yrs. 12 of them were in Madison Valley. I lived 100 yds from the Lyons Bridge on the upper Madison. The river has changed a lot in recent years due to Whirling disease which has wiped out about 90% of the bows. I haven't fished it since 94. I'ts afine fishery and hopefully will continue to be. I just started to fish the Mo last yr. I liked what I saw but the crowds well.....
in no particular order--
the housatanic in conn.
the kennebago rangely maine
bouton river vermont
ausable n.y.
ausable michigan
willowemac n.y.
big flat brook n.j.
pascack brook n.j.
truckee river nv
fall river cal.
mckenzie river ore.
metolious ore.
roaring fork col.
frying pan col.
middle fork of the flathead mt.
slough creek mt.
madison mt.
bechler river mt.
big horn mt.
jocko mt.
henrys for id.
kelly creek id.
silver creek id.
many rivers in new zealand
I have'nt fished any rivers in the east.I'v hiked into Slough Creek twice,very enjoyable. I keep planning to take a rod when I travel to Reno, maybe next time. Hat Creek is as close as I'v been to The Fall River. I have fished some anadromous rivers in Cal., The Trinity, Klamith,Eel,Matole,Mad and Smith.Never had the money to travel to New Zealnd though iI had the time. I lived at Lyon,s Bridge for 12 fishing seasons.
i used to spend alot of the fall camped at bakers hole on the madison by west yellowstone, stopped going when the crowds got bad.
Crowds get harder and harder to avoid. I used to have the Beaverhead basically to my self in Oct. Nov. This year I had to fight 10 drift boats first week in Nov.
I think that the best trout stream is the one that I'm the closest to at any particular moment. In that light, I'm going to describe my current favorite.
I won't mention it's name because it is very high use and very near the Bay Area, e-mail me if you want more info.
The best thing about this stream is that you get what you want out of it. It is well stocked in one area so the people who want a meat market have it right next to the parking area. There are, however, a lot of holdovers from previous years' stockings, and this is where the real fun begins. The stream has no native trout. It was originally a booming smallmouth fishery before it was dammed and the cold water fishery created. However, many holdover trout have created a self-sustaining population of respectable sized rainbows and browns (lots in the 18"-24" range). In addition to these larger fish there are also a nice sized population of smaller wild fish which, not having spent any time in a hatchery, act as if they were (drumroll, please) wild fish. I've surveyed a lot of fishermen that I encounter and have found that the fish that are taken with powerbait usually have fin clippings and other hatchery marks, and are usually first year fish. The fly caught trout are both first year hatchery fish as well as wild fish. Natural selection seems to be working pretty well here.
As for the terrain,you will find anything imaginable at this creek. Pocket water, riffles, deep fast slots, slow deep runs and pools and almost still sloughs. These varied environments are host to a wide range of prey species. I've caught or seen caught trout on all stages of insect life, steamers immitating sculpins, minnows and crayfish, glo-bugs and attractors.
As a rare and well guarded bonus, the stream was originally home to a steelhead run (years and years ago). Due to two dams and a proliferation of agricultural land, the stream no longer connects to the Sac. River, so the run is no longer viable. However, in a couple of secret spots that I'll leave to you to find, you can sometimes see steelhead like fish coming through when the lower reaches flood and connect to the Delta. Biologists will probably tell you that they are not really there, but if a 5-6 pound silver trout-like fish jumping six feet in the air into a dam outflow is not a steelhead, then they have some awesome facory stock nowadays.
I think i left enough clues as to the identity of the stream. Have fun and keep your fishing like your poker: fish aggrissive and keep your lines tight. -Matti2d -
in the springtime eagle lake used to be wonderful fishing for large trout. one other benefit is that western grebes do their mating dance and its truly fun to watch. only a couple of hours drive for you.
There is eagle lake on the n.fork of the Yuba? There is eagle lake near Big Bend on the Truckee? There is eagle lake on the s.fork of the American on the Eldorado N.F. Promise not to tell a soul. Ray, 2d, your posts are wonderful!
eagle lake, the famous one is north of susanville and borders route139 on the eastside. it should be on the map. the lake is stocked with eagle lake rainbows that get huge. they grow fat on fresh water scuds. use a horner shrimp nymph on a 10 or 12 hook. they eat tui chubs which i use a streamer for but nowadays maybe woolley buggers may be better. its been along time since ive been there so find someone that knows more than me. but go in the spring when the grebes are mating. ive had many days of 10 to 30 fish 5 pounds or better. but i bet those days are long past. also check out davis lake not to far away near portola. used to catch lots of midsize trout in the spring there. have a float tube for the best results. good camping around both spots.
About 3yrs ago the Ca Fish and Game wanted to limit the growth of Northern Pike in Lake Davis near Portola.In fact they wanted to kill all pike. Its to long a story to get into here but after poisoning L. Davis for 3yrs, it is now in the Portola drinking water, Ca is faced with a huge class action suit and N.pike is still in the lake although thousands of trout have been killed.
It's nice to have a gem in your back yard, especially if you have some reaches to yourself.
The smoking ban is back, life is good, the game is great.
Now, will someone please organize a major tournament here? No smoke and NO TAXES.
what about the rest of B.C.? i love it up by nelson and the kootenays, and thats what has kept me from getting a place up there. from nelson to revelstroke is one of my favorite areas of the world bar none.
My understanding is that the city of Vancouver stepped in to make a law. The old rule for the whole province was a workmans compensation ruling and was overturned.
Victoria has also had the rule for sometime.
Nelson is cool place but smoking now.
Murray, I will see you soon at the Broadway!
D.
Yep, the rules go city by city right now. The Province (actually the Workers Compensation Board) is working on a new province wide ruling, but I wouldn't, ahem, hold your breath.
Most of the smaller towns in BC are high % smokers, so I wouldn't count on them to come up with any kind of lung friendly ruling.
Ray's right, of course, about the beauty of the Interior of BC.
Look forward to seeing you David. Say hi. I wear a brown fedora.
Murray
Looks like the Trop in AC is considering a no-smoking policy. It is far from being decided, but they have polled their card holders for their opinions. Four choices given: 1. 2-4 seats/table ns
What I don't get is, why are all the tables in the NS room stud?? It's like they're saying "Let's suffocate all the hold'em players". I wish they'd make a few of the NS room tables Hold'em. Then I'd happily go back from time to time.
There is 1 holdem table in the NS room. They can never get enough holdem players together for a game. Maybe in the summer they did a couple times. Can you imagine how conservative that game is.
I love going into a restaurant like Friendly's or Don Pablo's. . .the kind of places that are one large seating area with no side rooms or partitions. They ask you if you want smoking or non-smoking. I ask "what's the difference?". They point to a row of tables and say "that's the smoking section". Then they point to the row of tables RIGHT NEXT TO IT and say "that's non". Thanks a million. . .
Usually someone has to go to the front desk and request that a NS HE game be started... given that it is tough to get players, and even TOUGHER to get tourists (mostly fills with regulars).... that's the biggest problem.
z
I am in the process of starting up a dealer training school and cannot find any prints, measurements for any game tables. Anyone know where these can be had? Thanks in advance.
Am planning a 3 day trip to Deadwood and would like to hear about the low limit poker played there. Have heard there are games every day from 1-5 but don't know much else. Tourists or locals, etc? thanks,
Dave
A very nice town. Do not walk up to the cemetery, drive. There were several games going. Everything in the town is tourists and low-limit. I seem to remember big games on weekends. I found a blackjack game with rules to die for, grabbed my wallet and sat down. Only to discover the betting limits were $3-5. I think this describes gambling in Deadwood. Good games. You can't lose or win much, just for fun.
Wild Bill died because he had taken a seat with his back to the door I've always heard. But, I found out in Deadwood that his killer walked completely around the table then ended up behind Wild Bill. Wild Bill died because he had aces and eights and was too focused on the hand.
If everything else is equal, I like to sit at right side of the dealer, maybe because I am right handed. I prefer 9>8>7>2>3>1>4=5=6. I do not know about seat 10, since in LA seat 10 is the dealer's seat.
regards,
jikun
I like to see as many faces as possible so what ever that seat is that's where I want to sit.
I like seats 3 and 8. . .more elbow room. Oh yeah, and being to the immediate left of a maniac.
to the left of the big piles of chips
Yes, friends, a liquor store right across from the poker room. Why? simple--to make even more money. I don't get it. Now you can grab a six pack ($6.50) and take it to the parking lot and tailgate.
My first casino poker was at the Flamingo in Vegas. There was a player there who couldn't wait for the cocktail waitresses and would go to the bar (almost hourly) and buy 2 drinks per trip. Why not offer an entire bottle of liquor at a time for such patrons?
ratso,
Since you know the exact price $6.50 I assume you bought a few already.
good luck paul
Hi Paul, Been down there lately? One of the dealers told me the price as he picked up a six pack of Coors Light (ugh). There has been a big discussion about having liquor stores in casinos. the city is against it because it hurts the local businesses, yet the State cannot regulate the casinos because they have liquor licenses. The test will be next month when I buy a 6-pack and pass cans of beer out to everyone at the table for free. Then we'll see what the casino says. Make good reading in the newspapers if they object.
I heard it previewed at some tournament. Did it go directly to tape or what?????
Ask Lou Kreiger on RGP. He was an advisor as far as I know. I'd like to see it too
A rough cut of the movie was shown at Escargot 2000. The writer/producer, David James is still in the process of editing. Once completed, he plans on selling to a distributor and letting them worry about advertising, promotion, etc.
Good to see a post from you - you know at "your age" if I don't see a post from you evey few days I start to worry - don't be a stranger.
:-) Mike
Everyone will get a few ups and downs with this one.
Ann Landers, Friday, 4/7/2000: Girl writes in that she is in love with a high-stakes gambler; he thinks he can make a living playing poker. She also mentions that he plays blackjack and roulette. Excerpt:
"Eugene is not going to beat the house forever. An astute poker player can do reasonably well because skill is a factor in card games, but when it comes to shooting craps or playing blackjack or roulette, skill doesn't count, and the house will win in the end. Slot machines are another matter. You can come out ahead if you have enough sense to quit while you are winning, but few people do."
I'm speechless. After the second sentence I was expecting better from the rest.
Maybe Mason or David would consider writing to her to help educate her?
Dick
Actually Dick I think Ann showed an amazing grasp of the situation.
And she is pretty correct about it all IMHO.
Mike
Ditto. Except for the part about GA whose efficacy is suspect.
JG
You think she is correct that a good player can win at slots, but not at blackjack?
Ok.
- Andrew
Really? She says that blackjack has no skill, but that slots do, and that you can beat them if you quit when ahead, but few people do.
The only thing good about the column was that she admitted that good poker players can win.
BJ - good players go broke a bit slower than bad ones and I agree slots take no skill to play - I get a kick out of people who think that it is a skill situation.
Slots are programmed to pay off and it is hard to beat them. I think Ann said if you leave when you are ahead you can win money and she is right that's all.
"BJ - good players go broke a bit slower than bad ones"
Except, of course for the the winning players who make money. Or are you denything that there are many people who play blackjack with an advantage?
"I think Ann said if you leave when you are ahead you can win money and she is right that's all. "
Unless her English is very bad, what she said was that playing slots has an element of skill, and that element is the ability to leave when you're ahead. If you can do that, you can beat them. This of course, is silly money-management nonsense.
All right Dan you win - I am too f*****g tired to argue with you - but that Black Jack thing - you got to be kidding I know some beat it but not many.
Or is that your tongue stuck way out in your cheek?
Her advice should have read. If your going to be a professional poker player give up roulete and slots and take poker lessons from DS. or blackjack lessons from MM. Who wants to write Ann and set her straight?
Well if you want to win one bb an hour pay Sklansky to show you how.
What IS your win rate Rounder, and at what limit? You're always demeaning Sklansky for teaching you to win 1 BB an hour, so you must be doing better than that. And even I, of questionable ability, can beat 4-8 for 2 BB an hour.
I don't consider it demeaning DS - he seems to think his way is THE way to play poker and I resent that.
My win rate is private and I don't discuss it with anyone any more. But suffice it to say it is approaching my lawyers hourly rate.
It's funny, I always thought the optimal win rate for a pro was considered to be between 1.5-2 BB/hr, not one. Rounder, not Grinder, right?
My good buddy Rounder, you have a knack for getting this place in an uproar; you have done it again. Look, you have poor Dan gnashing his teeth again; skp will be next.
Blackjack can't be beaten by skillful play?
Ann's statements about slots are "pretty correct" (your term from your post) ?
I'm just sitting back and enjoying all the posts.
Dick
Dick now you see why my wife prefers to live 2000 miles away.
:-)))))
I'm a'wrigglin' like a flounder on a line!
If you ignore the fact that she says skill doesn't count in blackjack and delete the sentence "Slots are another matter," I pretty much agree with Ann.
I would also have my suspicions about a "high-stakes poker player" who enjoys roulette.
Read Dear Abby and Ann Landers for a week. Any week. Half their columns give useless advice because a) they're so short they can't possibly cover all the options. b) the advice is completely wrong. The other half of their columns, not too surprisingly, is about people writing in to complain about the advice given because of reasons A or B. 99% of the time, Abby or Ann gives in and changes their opinion and asks for "40 lashes from a wet noodle." Hyuk hyuk. They're 135 years old giving outdated advice on a subjects that cannot be condensed down to 2 sentences. I'm just amazed people still take it seriously.
Given that, yes, we should certainly strap Ann down and lash her ass until it turns a nice shade of purple for the advice she gave. What would be better advice? I couldn't tell you in 2 sentences.
Dan
"Yes, we should certainly strap Ann down and lash her ass until it turns a nice shade of purple for the advice she gave."
Kinky.
Can I watch, Dan? Not my cup of tea, but I'm a good listener.
Obviously Ann doesn't understand much. Now if I was asked the question I would have said
1. You'll have plenty of free time to pursue activities on your own since your hubby will frequently get stuck and refuse to quit.
2. You won't have to worry about what to do with your money since you you won't have much.
3. Any decisions having to do with the rest of the family the hubby will leave up to you and won't interfere since he'll be too concerned about the hands he played last night.
4. There will never be a shortage of what to talk about since hubby will talk about poker non-stop.
5. If you ever get bored you can always go sit behind hubby as he sweats away at the table.
And so on. Sounds like a good life to me. But I suppose that Ann hasn't kept up with the times.
Did you practice full disclosure before getting hitched Mason? My wife at least figured it out the first coupla Friday nights I was supposed to pick her up at the airport and was uh a bit late cuz I was stuck "and it was a good game honey!" which has kinda been the leitmotif for our marriage.
JG
You missed the big one: If your poker-playing spouse wins, you can demand half of it, and his fear of not being allowed to play any more will make him give it to you. If he loses, you can tear a strip off of him, and make sure that he knows he 'owes you' for what you're putting up with.
I see no downside for the spouse in this one, at least until the rent money starts disappearing.
...yeah right....
I wonder what she has to say about the lottery...
I know that some of our posters now have their own poker pages on the web. We already have links to a couple of them. If we don't have a link to yours, let me know about it and when I get a chance I will take a look. If I like what I see, we'll establish a link.
Yes, Mason - When I established my page a few months ago, I was pleasantly surprised when you established a link ("Dick's Poker Page").
Thanks for encouraging us newcomers.
Dick
Hurray for Foxwoods Poker Room!! It has been announced that as of 4/16/00 the entire Poker Room will be a designated Smoke-Free Area!! Many thanks to Kathy Raymond and Staff for responding to player concerns in a timely and progressive manner!! Thanks to all players and employees who expressed their desires to management, and thanks to all who signed the petition. Looking forward to a Spring with a little more fresh air than usual (sigh of relief instead of gasp)!
Awesome!!!!!
It's my understanding that M (post above) is the one whose petition efforts got the job done. Congratulations, and much thanks, from all the non-morons out here!
I can't take all the credit for this. The topic had been on the minds and lips of many lately, and management was reportedly considering various alternatives, with the tournament area of the N.E. Poker Classic being planned to be smoke-free. Apparently the non-smoking weekends "across the river" at the Mohegan Sun were started by necessity (the air system was on the fritz),and evolved into a routine or a "test" on a regular basis, with much player support (and some disgruntled smokers, of course). Now I hear rumor that the Mohegan Sun will go Non-Smoking the same day as Foxwoods--Hurray again!! It seemed that Foxwoods management was looking for more overall player input on the whole subject, so it occurred to me that a petition would be a very definite form of player input. I had some help, too, collecting signatures since I was out of town much of the three weeks or so the petition was being circulated--it would have been easy, although time-consuming, to gather many more signatures had time permitted. I applaud the responsiveness and leadership of Kathy Raymond and Staff in doing this the right way by making the whole room smoke-free, and not merely instituting some unsatisfactory halfway solution. To all those who feel strongly that neither players nor employees should be subjected to the dangerous and unhealthful effects of secondhand smoke, I urge you to make your feelings known to management in your local cardrooms, and perhaps even start a petition there too. The fact that it has not hurt business in the casinos that have gone NS should also carry some weight with management. The time is ripe for more businesses of all kinds to take steps to protect the health of patrons and employees alike from the seriously unhealthful effects of secondhand smoke.
I am going to be living in NYC for the summer, and I was wondering whether anyone might be able to give me some unofficial advice on how or where I might be able to find a game in the city. I am ideally looking for low-limit Hold 'Em. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Search the archives or rec.gambling.poker for information on the Diamond Club or the Mayfair Club. Both are "private" but you should be able to join, and then you can play poker during their business hours.
I won't go into the plusses and minusses of each club, since I don't really know them, and you'll find that info in your searching.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Well now that it seems the rest of the major poker world is moving towards less smoke, why won't anyone help organize a show of interest or boycott of smoking rooms in Vegas? Like Ray said, they like money and frankly they won't lose too many customers with a smoking ban. Besides if the customer doesn't like it, they probably go play in the pits or slots instead, and I know the house likes that idea. The time has come for us to at least have a choice in this town. I am certain with all the high profile players and the number of Californians now used to non-smoking rooms that there is a market for it. With the Aladdin opening up a decent sized room with middle limits planned, shouldn't we all make an effort to have them at least consider starting the room non-smoking?
The Gold Strike, Horseshoe, and Sheridan Casinos are located next to each other. If you were staying anywhere else you needed a car for transportation. I was staying at Harrah's and it's approximately five miles away from the Horseshoe.
If you were looking for poker action the Horseshoe was spreading middle-limit action, you could find low-limit action at the Gold Strike main floor poker room, and middle to high-limit action could be found on the second floor of the Gold Strike where the tournament was being held. No matter what limits you like to play, you could easily find good poker action.
For places to eat, I prefer Las Vegas or Atlantic City since you have many places to choose from compared to Tunica. If you ever happen to go to Atlantic City, and have a car, visit Philadelphia's Reading Terminal Market (Philadelphia is approximately 60 miles from Atlantic City).
I ate at the WPO buffet for dinner on Monday and Tuesday evenings. The quality of food at the buffet was above average. Best of all it was free, well almost free, you needed to participate in a tournament, side action, or just ask the floor supervisor. If you are a coffee drinker like me you were out of luck. I could not find a Starbucks, so I was going to have to suffer until my trip was over.
On Sunday I played two Omaha 8 or Better and three No-Limit Hold'em satellites. Each satellite had a $65 buy-in. The winner received a $500 tournament chip and $50 cash. I did not win any of the satellites, but a few interesting plays occurred.
During a No-Limit Hold'em satellite, I had ten-five unsuited on the button. Two players limped in ahead of me, I called, the small blind called, and the big blind rapped. The flop was 10 - 3 - 2 rainbow. Everyone checked to me, I felt that they were weak and didn't have anything, so I moved-in hoping that no one would call, but the player on my right called with a pair of Jacks. Note that, the table was nine handed at the time. Of course, everyone seen my hand and I felt like a sucker betting into four other players. But here's a line from Doyle Brunson's Super/System that made me feel a little better, "To have the reputation for being a Sucker, with everybody in the world throwing their money at me trying to get mine, would be my idea of earthly paradise!" Next time I hope to see the same players when the stakes are higher, and you can count on me betting the winning hand for some real dough.
At 1:00 a.m. I played my last satellite for the day. The player on my left was drinking beers and surprisingly, he was playing very well. He was knocked out and there was just two of us left. My opponent had two thirds of the chips and asked me if I was interested in a deal. I said, "What do you have in mind." He offered $100 and I refused. Since, I had one third of the chips I thought a fair amount would be $180. I thought this player had a lot of nerve to only offer less than one fifth the prize, so I said, "Let's play." On the next hand I had jack-ten unsuited for the big blind. My opponent moved in and I called. He had ace-rag and won. After the satellite was over the guy that was drinking beers introduced himself to me. His name was Don. He told me that the player that won the satellite won the first event at the tournament. I didn't know the winner, but I know one thing for sure. I'm not going to give him any deal if I ever see him again.
On Monday I entered the $500 buy-in Omaha 8 or Better tournament. During the first two levels I split a few pots and eventually was short stacked by the break. I had $225 left and the blinds were $25 and $50. On the button I raised with Ah Kh Qs Jc, the small blind called, and the big blind folded. On the board came the Ks Td 6d. My opponent checked, I bet, and he called. I figured he either had two pair, a set, or the worst possibility - a diamond flush draw. On the turn came a Jd giving me the nut straight and my opponent a possible flush. I was hoping he was just calling me down with a bluff catcher. Anyway, my opponent checked, I bet $75 all-in, and he called. On the river he showed me the hand I didn't want to see an Ad - 4d. Note that, the player that beat me on this hand was Ray Weaver who came in 2nd place.
In the evening, I played three No-Limit Hold'em satellites. I didn't have any luck playing the first two, but here's what happened on the last. There was five players left and I had $50, which was the smallest stack. The blinds were $25 and $50. I don't remember what the hand was, but I put in my stack and won. Now, I was on a rush and just couldn't lose. I started knocking players out and finally, it was just two of us. Our stacks were about equal, so I offered to split the money fifty-fifty. He accepted the deal.
On Tuesday I entered the No-Limit Hold'em $500 buy-in tournament. I had some world class players at my table. John Bonetti was on my right and on my left was Erik Siedel. What follows are my accounts of some of the plays and events that occurred.
I had the big blind for $15 with five-two unsuited. Everyone folded to Bonetti and he bet $30. I decided not to give him any action and folded. What did you think I would do? I just wanted to say that I played a hand against Bonetti.
Here's a hand I played against Siedel. I had the small blind for $15. Everyone folded to me and I limped in with the queen and eight of spades. On the board came Q - 7 - 3 rainbow. We both checked the flop. On the turn a queen fell on the board, I bet $60, and Siedel folded.
In late position I pick up pocket aces. A player limps in early position and another, two seats to my right, raises to $60. The pot had $135 in it, so I decided to move-in to pick up the pot. No one called, but I was hoping for someone to get unlucky and move-in with an ace-king or a pair of kings.
The next hand I played against Bonetti. I had six-duece unsuited in the big blind for $30. Everyone folds and Bonetti calls, I check the option. Since he called instead of raising like he usually would do, I became suspicious. He knows from previous plays that I would not call a raise unless I had a hand. It was difficult to put him on a hand because he mixed up his play so well. Sometimes he would raise with a trash hand, and other times he had a real hand. On the board came 9 - 5 - 2 rainbow. We both checked the flop. On the turn a queen fell. Bonetti bet $60 and I folded.
Here's the last hand Bonetti played. He raised all-in (I think it was $400). I folded and Siedel called. Bonetti shook his head and said, "I know what you have." Siedel had ace-king unsuited and Bonetti had ace-queen unsuited. That was the end for Bonetti. I liked his style of play and now understand why he either busts out early or makes it to the final table. But to win a tournament you still need to get lucky. He was playing fast and hoping that luck would help him.
On the next hand that I played, I had a pair of eights in late position. The player on my right raised it to $60, I called, and the blinds folded. On the board came A - 3 - 5 rainbow. We both checked. I had never played with my opponent before, but I figured he didn't have a pair of aces or ace-king, since he raised pre-flop I think he would have bet. I felt that he was afraid of the Ace and put him on a paint pair. On the turn came the miracle card I wanted - an eight. My opponent moved-in with a $400 bet and I called all-in with $325. Siedel even looked a little surprised when I called. On the river, I showed my opponent two eights. He shook his head and mucked his cards. While he was folding I caught a glimpse of a king, so that's what he had - pocket kings. By the end of the second level I had $750 left, not bad, I still had a chance to win.
The third level started and the blinds were $25 and $50. I had jack-nine unsuited in the small blind. Everyone folded to me and I called. Siedel raised $100 and I decided to call the bet so he would put me on a pocket pair. I was looking for a flop with a pair in it hopefully matching one of my cards. On the board came Ks - Js - 8c. I checked, and my opponent under bet the pot for $200. The under bet made me suspicious. On most of the hands I watched him play, he would always bet the pot or raise an amount twice the size of the pot. I decided that he had made his hand and wanted me to call, or he was testing me to see how strong a hand I had, so I folded.
Siedel, another player, and I were moved to a new table. Siedel was reseated two seats to my left. The next hand I played was on the button. I had ace-jack unsuited. A player two seats to my right made it $100. I thought he was stealing and I had a good bluff catcher, so I called, and the blinds folded. On the board came K - Q - 9 all spades. My opponent checked, and I looked at my cards and I did not have a spade. Yeah, I know, I'm not suppose to look at my cards, and I did it anyway, but I'll look at my cards when I do have the flush. I had watched my opponent play at the previous table with the same type of flop. Someone tried bluffing at him and he called and won the pot. I decided I was going to check it to the river. You could tell from the look on Siedel's face that he could not believe I didn't bet at that flop. Maybe I should have under bet the pot for $100 to test my opponent. Who knows? We played showdown and my opponent had ace-six and paired his six on the turn and won the pot. Now, my stack had dwindled down to $425.
Here's an interesting hand Siedel played. He was playing head-up with a player on his left. On the board was J - 10 - 8 of clubs. Siedel bet the pot and his opponent moved-in. If he called and lost he would be out of the tournament. Siedel stalled. A player sitting across from me, John Brandis, requested a clock be put on Siedel. Then Brandis said, "If he had a hand he would have called already." Then I remembered something from Sklansky's Hold'em Poker book, and I said, "He would have called it within 15 seconds." Then an argument occurred between Siedel and Brandis. He offered to play Siedel for a million dollars in Atlantic City at the Taj. They both shook hands on the proposal. Now, the floor personnel came over to our table and clocked Siedel. Of course, he folded his hand. Well, Sklansky's right again.
The fourth level just started with blinds of $50 and $100. I only have $200 left and I need some luck - a lot of it. In middle position I have ace-jack unsuited. I moved-in and the player that Siedel was trying to bluff moved-in his entire stack - it was a mountain. Now, I know I'm a goner unless I get lucky. Well, I didn't get lucky. My opponent had ace-king. I stood up and said, "Good luck guys."
nice post Mah ol buddy. it looks like you are getting some good experience with the champs. it seems like you check alot on the flop, i hope that works for you. dont let the big boys run over you. good luck.
I would have rather had weaker plays on my left and right, like the one that checked his pocket Kings to me and gave me a free card to beat him. The problem I'm having with these $500.00 buy-in tournaments is trying to build a big enough stack within the first two levels. I liked Bonetti's approach. Next time I play one of these I'll gamble a little more heads-up.
Mark,
Thanks for the report. I think you need to eat more red meat. Need to get your aggressive juices flowing.
Cheers,
I happen to get heads up with Bonetti at Commerce in a Super Sat. we started with 40 probably 1/2 were "name" players it was rebuy so a lot were playing like 3/6 maniacs. Anyway we played heads up for a round or so and Bonetti was playinf AA to 52o.
He made a bigish bet at the pot and I pushed in my 1/4 of the chips with black 6-4o I win I have 1/2 the chips I lose oh well I gave it a try figure I can't be worse then 2-1. He calls me and shows red AQo. I win when a 4th club hits the river. There is at least 75 spectators watching and Bonetti goes nuts - calling me names and saying no wonder he wins so much cuz of "guys" like me playing small cards all the time. Now I have never played this trash before and may never play it again but I had a "feeling" - I got out when my med. pair out drawn a few hands later but it was an experience.
Rounder, I find your style of play from what I've read in your posts interesting. You're on the conservative side of conservative in ring games and yet you come out swinging the battle axe during tournaments.
Certainly this has to do with the fact that you can lose real money in real games whereas you only lose buy-ins in tournaments. And maybe I'm not getting the full picture, but at some point, buy-ins add up too. Not that I disagree with your style, but I'm just wondering how you justify your 180.
Dan
Dan not a 180 - at all. I play pretty much the same game in both - I tend to play semi-tight semi aggressive - I do get very aggressive at the final table specially in NL HE - I loosen up and let it fly when the others are playing tight - early on in the tournament I am tight when they are loose.
Actually under my tight rock like exterior there is a maniac trying to get out.
:-)
Rounder,
Bonetti's a tough character, but he has excellent reads on his opponents. Between Seidel and Bonetti. I would really say Bonetti is the better player. Seidel did not play a hand against Bonetti until he had that Ace-king to chop him off.
Mark,
Almost met you Sunday 4-2 at the Shoe. They paged "mah for 20-40" so I went up and introduced myself. It was a DIFFERENT mah.
Wasn't the WPO a great tournament? Great facilities, great staff, etc.
Abe
Abe,
It was a lot of fun. I only played satellites and tournaments this time because I was only there for a few days. But, I had the opportunity to learn a few new moves, and play with the pros. You'll play the same pros that play at the WSOP, but for only $500. I thought it was a good experience. For now, I'm sticking to the $65 satellites and $500 tournaments. Maybe, I'll catch you next time. Good luck.
Mark
Just made my hotel and airline reservations for WSOP I'm there on 4/27 about 1pm staying at Fitzgeralds.
Hope to see some of you there - beer/coffee/pop is on me.
Look for a big ugly italian guy wearing cheap clip of shades.
only whant to know how you are i now you are a good player whats your real name ???
My name is Mike.
I'll be there on the 27th as well. I'm playing both $2000 NL and PL hold'em events. Unforunately, I waited too long for my room reservationa and got stuck at the Lady Luck. How bad is it? Should I stay on the strip, instead. I am not that budget concious as my bankroll is oveflowing (from non-poker endeavours).
Look or the good-looking, young Italian gut with an embroidered, black-leather shirt. I'll snap off your premium pocket pair as I push my rags and then buy you a beer with my winnings;-)
My name is Mike ( i go by Michael), too
A black leather shirt? Embroidered no less. I'll be looking for you maybe we can get a 2+2 one table satellite together. I am at Fitzgeralds one hotel away from Binions - They had rooms as of yesterday $40 a day WSOP rate and they are OK for all the time I spend in it who cares just so the roaches aren't bigger than a cat.
:-) See ya Mike
It's more like a jacket that is cut like a shirt. Anyway, hope the Lady Luck roaches aren't any bigger than those at Fitzgeralds. The rooms are $35 on Thur., 99 on fri and sun and 45 on mon and tues. Go figure.
Beers on me.
Michael, Unfortunately I can't make it to LV this time around, but I did want to let you know that the Lady Luck is actually a pretty nice (as far as DT hotels go) place. If you play table games too, definately get tracked as they are pretty liberal on their comps. It's just a twoblock walk to Binions (three if you're going to the poker room.)
Michael,
I have stayed at the Lady Luck. It's OK, and it's very close to Binions just walk out the front door cross the street and your there..
Best of it!!
MJ
Michael, I stayed at Lady Luck a couple of years ago and found it to be a good hotel. Good enough rooms I mean. Luck. Dave
Rounder,
I'll be arriving in Vegas on May 17th and will watch all you winners at the final table on the 18th at high noon.
So you are serious, they charge you 99 a night on the weekend now? Last year no matter where you stayed it was same rate each day of the week. That b***** just pisses me off. I highly doubt her skinflint ways have made her any more money than Jack made out of the joint.
With the smoking I will be like Ray Zee and pass on the festivities. Maybe I will come watch one day of the action when I feel up to it, but I have to keep to my principles. Besides nothing is more fun than seeing a table of heads up PLO at 200-400 blinds with the players being Johnny Chan and Berry Johnston. I was only about 9/10 short on the $10k buy in to sit with the legends. I wanted to play my usual game of Stud/8, but the 50-100 game had Mike Sexton, Eskimo Clark, and Max Stern playing and one guy who had all the chips who I know to be a huge winner at the game over the last few years. Yeah lots of loose action tables at WSOP...
The room rate trend for high rates on the weekend is the same everywhere. As long as they can fill the rooms they are going to charge high rates. It's supply and demand. Ten years ago I could get a room at Harrah's, which used to be the Holiday Inn, for $35 a night and as a bonus they would throw in a couple of weekdays for free. Those days are gone. Binion's is just following in the footsteps of the corporations that took over Vegas.
Makes you kinda long for the days of mob rule, huh?
I thought it still was ruled by a mob. Try building a Casino anywhere and tell me who you had to deal with or pay off.
Anyway, since Vegas gets crowded on the weekends, you will be paying more for the room. That's not all, the food is expensive, compared to previously. As long as it's crowded they are going to maximize their profits. Vegas is not for someone on a budget anymore.
You don't understand, this was just last year! I was still living in CA at the time and came in for a Thur-Sun. I called the Horseshoe reservation line and they put us up in the LV Club and charged us $35/night, regardless of day of week. To most of us, its not so much the rates or such, its the nature of this all. Jack Binion and of course Benny always ignored the ways of the other casinos. They truly believed in treating the gamblers right and part of it was being generous in what they gave in room rates and comps and they got in back in excellent pay. This bitch now thinks its just another Vegas casino and wants to run it as such. Thats not what the Shoe is to most of us. Its a gambling hall, a traditional place where things are supposed to be done differently. I suppose its hers to do what she wants, but frankly if its like the others in deals then its gonna go bust because its not that nice and their limits are no longer special and their food aint a deal anymore. The focus of all these places is to get people to come out once, people from around the world...and take everything they have in their pockets and bank accounts now before they decide not to come back. They aren't getting gamblers any more they are getting tourists, the types that just see a place once and never again. These are nickel and quarter players and with so many casinos around the country and around the world they surely dont have to come here to gamble. Its a very dangerous thing for us locals who depend on the industry to support our city and no one accepts it here, they just perpetuate it. Eventually they will tap all these tourist markets out and then who is gonna be left to check out the hotels? You will have already sold off or driven off much of the gambling market that feeds you best and will be there for you in the future, all in the chase for a short term buck now. No one seems to think about this angle much, but it will be too late to act on if the thinking isnt changed in the near future. We can say California Indians are no threat because they arent a "destination" like Vegas, but what they will do is get the gamblers who leave the money behind and we will get the tourists that leave small change in the malls and don't come back much.
i think alot of what Bill says is true. with casinos all over the place, only special places will survive in the future that arent in the population centers. unless the horseshoe and other small casinos differentciate themselves from the rest they are gonners. if cal. expands gambling alot in the future l.v. may become a thing of the past. its too big to make it off just tourists looking in the windows.
You're reminding me of that final scene in the movie "Casino" by Scorcese. Do you remember it? DeNero is doing a voice-over about the new kinds of people who are coming to Vegas, and the visual is a slo-mo of flocks of fat tourists in Alcapulco short sleeved shirts flooding through the door with a ton of backlight, making them look like angels, or like the aliens when they come off the mothership in Close Encounters.
That scene has always struck me as genius, and to you it probably rings true.
That movie sucked, though.
I understand your point perfectly. But, the corporations just look at short term profits and ignore repeat business unless you're a high roller. This is how a majority of companies are operating in the USA. Binion's sees all the other Casinos doing this, so they just jumped on the bandwagon. If they can still fill rooms at $99 on the weekends, they're not worried, at least for now.
The problem is that the Horseshoe's rooms don't have a market value of $99 per night -- even on the weekends. If they can fill 'em at that price, more power to 'em.
How about a room at a motel for $99 a night on new years eve. If they can get away with overcharging you, they will. When I went to Tunica for the WPO, I purposely stayed on the weekdays, so I had some extra money to blow on satellites. On Friday and Saturday Harrah's wanted $99 but on the weekdays it was only $39.
Furthermore, Binion's has changed alot. Last year when I was down there, most of the BJ tables were multi-deck games.
I just hope they legalize Casino gambling in California , maybe the prices will go down.
Are you talking about Binion's in LV having multi-deck games? You must be mistaken it is still almost all single decks with a few multi-decks thrown in almost for those that prefer shoe games for whatever reason. Binion's hasn't changed in terms of offering the best table games. Its not the same as it used to be because now suddenly there are minimum bets required on most crap games, but BJ is the same as it ever was if not better. I have sensed the house there has become a bit more tolerant of medium and lower stakes counters in that you rarely get run off anymore. Their best defense is that the tables are packed most hours and you get stuck in unbeatable games as a full table is five players, just about impossible to beat on a single deck game. As I pointed out to a fellow counter, little do these people realize that the two deck game probably is more profitable for a counter in that house just because of usually having four or five players on most tables.
My complaints revolve around the other things they do, the things Jack did to make you come in the house. The cheap food, the comps, the low minimum bets, the high max bets in the book, etc. Now its just like everyone else and frankly I can't see how Becky could think thats the way to make the most money. She probably just reacts like all the other short sighted corporate analysts. They lack the understanding of cause and effect. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't try to copyright the WSOP or something like that and then sell it off to another property. Squeeze every penny out she can! I mean lets face it, don't you think one of the LA cardrooms wouldn't give up a lot to get the prestige, not to mention the business, that the WSOP could bring them? No doubt things are changing and there isn't much you can do other than shake your head...
When I was at Binions last May. I noticed that the only single deck games were in the old section. There are plenty of times you can sit at a single deck game, but usually it was late and on the weakdays from my experience.
I agree with you on the prices for food and rooms. Even the strip is much more expensive than it used to be. I don't see the prices going down unless the business drops off.
Speaking of BJ. When five people sit down at a table with a single deck they deal two hands before shuffling. You can use this to you're advantage still to get an edge. But, I admit the less players, the better the advantage.
Love those hot prastromi sandwhches.
Amen, Rounder, Amen. Also, the 10-20 during the rodeo
I like their coffee shop downstairs. Try the French Dip. Lots of beef on a big french roll. That's what I'm going to have for lunch before I watch all you winners play off for the big prize on May 18th.
You guys actually eat there? I think I'm gonna throw up.
Brett
Since I'm going to be there next month. I'm open to suggestions. Any places with decent food in the Vegas casinos? I don't like deli food or cold cuts. I hate those giant hot dogs too.
I was talking about the Deli no the little grill - bad but the coffee and burgers are OK forget the chili.
The ribs a Tony Rome's across the streeet are great.
I don't know what happened that day, but I can't ever remember Binions going to more than a table or two of multi-deck. They have always advertised single deck and things are still that way now. Usually the multi-decks are far back in the old section, one shoe game and a game or two of double deck.
As for 5 handed game, well I am just referring to what Snyder wrote, I think he said its actually Brother William's chart. In it he says using the Red Seven you need to spread a 1-8 to get 1% over the house. Sure you could use a stronger system, but figure then you might need 1-6 spread. I don't think anyone can get away with that for long on a single deck game no matter how good their act. I usually think even 1-4 is tough on a single deck except for very small (reds) action. If you learn a very strong playing count then sure you can make some money as then being on 3rd base would give you more powerful playing changes, but not exactly a game any counter would get excited about. I haven't really counted in quite awhile so I can't say much about the conditions other than what I am told. I have heard most places in town have actually become a little more tolerant to counters betting under $50 max bets. They just have gotten rid of most of their troubles by getting the auto shufflers and using them to spread eight deckers and taking 2-2.5 decks off. Those games are obviously next to impossible to beat and getting a beatable game is tougher and tougher.
The only point I wanted to make is that the novice players that play just basic strategy are now fighting a bigger house percentage with the multi-deck games. So, it's just another way for the Casinos to empty their customers pockets faster.
binions is corporate
Ray:
When you were young and spunky what kinds of games did you play. Did you take certain risks with your bankroll? By this I mean did you play in games you couldn't afford once in a while for a shot at a big piece of pie? Or, did you just grind it out and stay where you belonged. But then, perhaps, you have always been rich and semi-retired. If that is the case never-mind.
Calvin,
i traveled around and played in all types of games and limits. i wouldnt take big enough loses to wipe me out but my br was on the line many times. to get ahead you need to take some risks unless you are willing to play small for years waiting for your bankroll to accumulate. i did use the stratagy of going down and playing smaller after big loses to recoup my position. also what i did best was search out good games so i didnt lose so often. like many i started with almost no money and worked my way up in the world. i have never in my life after 16 years old, held a job or worked for anyone or kissed anyones ass.
What do you feel is most important to your game, playing the people or math?
you have been playing for three years and it stll makes sense to ask "math or people"?
i haven't been playing quite that long but that question makes no sense to me. but that's just me. i could be wrong. it could be a very important and interesting question.
scott
Since it is so obvious to you - what is it.
i did not say the answer was obvious. i said the question makes no sense.
actually, there is amazingly little math in poker. almost none. so people are obviously more important than math.
however people usually mean to ask "logic or people?" when they ask "math or people?" this question is the one that makes no sense. there is a good deal of logic and good deal of accurately approximating what people would do involved in playing good poker. these two things are inseprable. neither is more important and to even ask which is more important, in my mind, shows a fundamental misunderstanding.
scott
The question was framed simply and with all thought to not getting flamed for asking. I tried to ask it so simply that no one could get the chance to begin showing me how much smarter they are than I, or have the opprotunity to show me what a rude cyberspace punk they were. Over on RGP and here, there are lots discussions concerning probability, my feeling before I began to play poker was that it was a game about people, but there appears to be many who spend alot of time wondering which is better K10 or J10. It does not appear that in the span of my life that question means very much, at least not before the flop. I believe that both pyscholgy and probability are important in that order.
Scott, after three years of playing poker I now beat the game at the ten-twenty level, and beat it good. But do not take my bs at face value, come into the Sports Keg poker room in Burlington, Washington State, Buy a rack and find out for your self. It won't be hard to find me, I usually take seat three.
i did not intend to flame you and i am sorry you took my message(s) in that light. i do not know or care if i am smarter than you and i do not think i was rude. again i am sorry if you felt i had belittled you in any way.
now that we are, hopefully, friends, i will elaborate on my previous statements. this may be longer than you would have liked, but here it goes.
the actual probabilities that various things will happen is far less important than almost every aspect of poker. furthermore, very little math is needed to find these probabilities. also, slight errors is probabilities lead to slightly less than optimum results. but slight errors in other aspects of considering the game can often lead to far less than optimum results.
i may have been presumptuous. you seem to have really meant to ask whether math or people were more important. in that case the clear answer for the reasons i listed above is people.
i think you will be hard pressed to find one poker player who claims that being able to compute probabilities is more important than being able to understand and predict people's actions.
mostly for that reason math vs people, typically, means logic vs people. that is, is it more important to know your opponents or know what to do given that information? again, if this was not your intent, i apologize for my presumption.
that question is meaningless and does not help people understand poker. same with the answer to the KT vs JT debate. there may be arguments that help someone understand the game, but which hand is better is a trivial, and in fact meaningless, bit of information. logic and reading people are never even used in isolation. one always accompanies the other. thus, an attempt to compare relative importance is misguided.
so, if you really meant math vs people, the obvious answer is people. if you meant logic vs people, the question means nothing.
i believe that you are a winning player. congratulations. i wish you the best.
scott
ill give you an answer even though i dont usually do much with those that wont identify themselves with a name. to be a champ you need to know the so called math. chances of making flushes for instance and improving your hand. how can you know whether to play on without this knowledge. also how can you make an intelligent decision on calling if you cant put a probability on the various hands your opponent could have. suppose there are four spades on the board on 4th street and you are sure he has a flush and you have trips. how big does the pot have to be to call. or how many people need to be in in order to raise. if you have a pair and a backdoor flush draw, how big does it need to be for you to play against a bigger pair. this comes up lots in holdem. i bet there arent 30 readers of this forum that know. and all should. playing the people is just as important, if you cant read them you cant win. to be good at anything you need to know all about it, the less you know the worse you do. good luck.
Thanks for that post, Ray. Up to now I have been trying to figure out if my hand was the best and what the other probably had and if there was a lot of money in the pot, but not precise enough it seems. Do you sit and figure these odds/situations ahead of time or find them in a book? I have some o the 2+2 books of HE and 7card, and don't recall stats for some of these situations. Thanks, Dave
i guess most players need to learn how to figure the basic possibilities. davids books have the footwork down. they also must memorize the chances of the things that frequently happen. ive seen many times decent 7 stud players calling on 6th street with 2 pair against a sure straight getting 5 to 1 odds.and others folding getting 12 to 1 odds.
Just "knowing" basic probabilities isn't that difficult or even rare among players. It's putting them to use that's the hard part, except when it's something easy like knowing whether you can continue with a gutshot draw. Probability is like a tool for poker that comes without an instruction manual, or has a manual that's so crude and basic that it's not very useful.
Here's a discrete example. You bet all the way with a overpair in hold 'em but get check-raised when the last card falls. There are 8 bets in the pot. Let's say you know you should fold if your opponent can beat you in this situation more than about 90% of the time (let's say you're a whiz and know that it's 88.9% of the time), but you also know your opponent is at least capable of bluffing, you think perhaps even in this spot, but maybe not. You also have some idea about not wanting opponents to know that you can be check-raised off a good hand on the end. Now what?
You want to make a decision that is right given the available information. The information that is and has been available would give you some understanding of what your opponent had to begin with, what he could have been calling with, how the cards could have helped him, what he's capable of check-raising with, what he's seen you do and what he thinks of you, how he plays against you and others like you and how folding will affect others watching you in the future. If you knew what you were doing, you could think about this information in terms of probability and tailor it for this exact situation. In fact, you could do it more or less instantly, almost unconsciously. (As in: you know to automatically fold if a king lands but to call if the turn card paired). But if you haven't been watching and thinking about what you see you might as well forget about it and "err on the side of caution" by calling.
Of course, you don't really ask these questions with the black-and-white precision with which you lay out words on a page or calculate probabilities they way you would with pen and paper. You just have a good store of observations and impressions that your basic knowledge of probability helps you think about.
Good players constantly take in and think about what they see and ask these kinds of questions to themselves. In fact, it's probably fair to say that for good players this is what "playing poker" really amounts to, whereas for others it's just waiting for cards. (I suppose the whole poker world can be divided into three families: those that don't wait, those that just wait, and those that wait and analyze). This ability not only allows the good player to solve simple problems like this, but lets him see occasional opportunties that others don't.
By the way, the situation I described occurs with some frequency in the low limit games I play in. I would say that the check-raise is called nearly 100% of the time and that the chances the raiser is bluffing are approximately zero. While this isn't entirely irrational, clearly there's some room for fine-tuning. But if all the players went out and got degrees in statistics I doubt that this pattern would change.
Thanks for the excellent replies. I am finding out now that some players definately have the hand they are representing if they get to the river; should make the calculations easier for me. Guess we don't have too many tricky players here and I can take some advantage of this. BTW I did figure out some of the common odds myself and have a better idea. Good advice for me to be thinking of these different situations. Dave
P.S. When people start out, they pay off too often. When they get better, they fold too often. This is where the really good players use their skills to clobber them.
i still pay off too often.
on national tv, chip reese admitted that he had gone broke and had become a millionaire 20 times in 10 years...puggy pearson admitted that he had been broke more times than he can count...doyle brunson lost a 6 figure bankroll with slim and sailor, he has also admitted many times that he was so broke he couldn't afford bus fare and a cheeseburger. ray, have you ever been broke in your early years...and how did you make a comeback? what do you mean by "my br was on line many times"? how much has "taking risks" contributed to your success as compared to grinding small?
Hey dudes----its the people not the math. i guess if you are a dope then the math is important cause if you dont know what the odds are you can be killed but it is really the people
xx
Yeah...numbers are just numbers. Cold and lifeless. People give love and warmth and reefer. Play the people, people. Numbers never getcha high. Peace out.
What's the piss sign?!
Gene,
ive never grinded small. i moved up whenever possible. i got broke gambling once when i was about 18 for a few months and vowed never to get broke again. i havent. after going out to vegas full time in 1970 i came close once but got lucky and won a bunch next play. never looked back from there. as i moved up i took some big risks but always knew that i could drop down and put in the hours and get my money back. i did spend alot of time learning about the games i played. in those days there was little info that was worthwhile on poker. i figured all the odds on the different situations on 7 stud and knew them. no one at that time ever did this and i made many proposition bets with people that should have known better.
Well first of all, my understanding of the game is that the lower limits are generally more math oriented as players give enough of an overlay to play a straightforward solid game and get the money. As you move up in limits those overlays diminish and people skills if you will become much more important. This makes sense as many players in 3-6 you will never figure out beyond very general concepts. When you get to 20-40 and up, you will be able to read most players very well as far as narrowing down their hand possibility, but they can do the same so being able to outplay them and do these things better is more important because just playing mathematically solid hands won't give you much of an overlay. Just my impression and I sense this would be Mason's read on this too.
As for being broke and such...you hear all these greats tell you how they were broke, but they have something we all don't have. They have known skills that make them easily capable of getting a bankroll loaned to them to get out of the hole. If I asked all you for a loan, saying I am broke now and need a little to get back in action most of you all would turn and run. Lets face it, if I was broke and gambling was my career I would be flat out screwed! Fortunately I have a decent job so I would just be a months discretionary income away from getting something that can serve as a bankroll. This is a factor you all never talk about or mention, but before some marginal gamblers go out risking their roll thinking they can just dig out of being broke because all the greats do it...think twice. I used to be a pro sports bettor and fortunately never busted or came close to it, but I saw it happen often. Us sports bettors are nothing like the poker crowd and loans are fairly rare amongst us. Basically if they bust, they have to get out of the game and get a job, period! Poker players live a weird fantasy world at times and its almost glamorous to them to be busted, its almost the only thing they consider as a learning experience. However all the marginal guys better worry because it may not be that easy to get out of the hole if you play poorly when broke or short, or you just plain may not get the money to ever get out.
no one should blow their whole bankroll on anything, thats for sure. many players are just a months away from reloading their br from their jobs. they have the luxury of taking shots as they can recover quicky. those like myself when starting out may not have the borrowing or job backing to play with. then you must take your shots with money that you can lose and make back in a smller game. thats something ive always said. thats why i like the idea of smaller shots at the bigger games as you can recover more easily. anyone moving up should be well prepared. if they havent bothered to learn the advanced concepts they of course will most often fail. if they put in the time to be one of the best players at the new stakes most will succeed within a few tries. the math is at all the levels only it takes different forms. in the bigger games you may have to figure the chances he is bluffing and add it to the chances you can catch your outs. so you have to still do math type thinking on every decision.
Here is a situation that has been bugging me for a while. Sorry if it gets long and rambling: A few weeks back, I was in a great 9-18 game. I was on the button with (I believe) 9-8 with a 9 high board on the flop. I bet, got a couple of calls and saw a ten fall on the turn. It was checked around to me. At this point I was leaning back in my chair. when it was my turn I leaned forward and reached to the front of my ten stacks to grab the one nearest the center of the table. I may have touched the table before I got to my chips as I was in an awkward position. However, the dealer burned and was about to turn when I yelled out "wait!!" I was too late as he already turned the river card. A floorman was called over and listened to the dealer all but say that he made a mistake. The floor then disallowed my bet and let the river card stand without listening to my side of the story or asking me to re-create my actions that led the dealer to believe that I had checked. I protested and was told in no uncertain terms that he had made his ruling and that was that. The river was checked around and my nine held up, but I was pretty pissed. I am not an angle shooter and I have never had a floorperson called because of any action that I have taken. On top of that, I've been playing in that room with that floorman for years now.
Was/Am I right in feeling like I was being blown off by the floorman? In my opinion I did nothing to indicate a check. My hands were no where near the table so I couldn't have even tapped the table inadvertantly. I didn't hesitate before acting as I had made up my mind to bet. when i reached for the table I reached around my chips and went straight for the stack that I was going to bet with. After the hand the floor said that I won the hand so everything should be alright. he missed the point completely, I think, as I missed a couple of calls on the turn from draws that did not get there, but that's beside the point. I know that his post hand comments were out of line.
"At this point I was leaning back in my chair."
You should of listened to your mother!!!
my mama also told me to never draw to an inside straight. the woman didn't ever consider overcards, backdoor flushes and pot odds. what does she know?
when a decision is being made you must squeel alot and be forceful or they go against you. the dealers always try to cover their butts so you must tell the correct story. its still your responsiblity not to let the dealer burn and turn before its time.
The Caltech Student Government has approved our Poker Club so this Saturday, we're having a Freeroll Tournament...
We'll be playing Hold'em, Omaha/8, Stud, and Stud/8. Each player will be given '$20' and the limits will start at '$.50'-'$1' - they will double each time through the 4 games. The final table will be no-limit.
So, everybody be in Fleming House Dining Hall at Caltech this Saturday, April 15, at 11:00PM to have a shot at our huge $35 purse - this means you John Feeney, Rick Nebiolo, Big John, and all the other SoCal giants.
~DjTj
Say hello to all the post docs from Nate Lewis' lab for me.
Ratso (in Philadelphia)
DjTj -- Sorry I was unable to make it. Maybe it was for the best anyway as I believe I am viewed suspiciously on the Caltech campus at this time anyway. Maybe next time. Such a large potential payout makes it hard to pass up!
Any suggestions for flies? Size, type, color, etc. what should I tie if I go up there?
caltrout.org has some stuff you can use. there are some links to shops that give info
i like small nymphs in the runs. in the fall river use zug bugs. baum lake is good if you have a boat or float tube, some huge fish.
great camping at cassel on the canal which has trout, or at burney falls which is really nice spot. also try burney for a motel as its close by. you can play cards in redding but i hear they are not enforcing the smoking rules. used to be a little game in burney many moons ago. fantastic golf course at fall river mills. you are close to eagle lake as well. the river fishing is tough and demanding.
Report updated: 04/13/100-----15:45
Baum Lake
Water Conditions:
Good B.W.O. mayflies
and midges are
hatching-- bring your
tiny dries and nymphs.
Midge pupa under a
'cator is deadly here.
Don't forget your
leeches, either, as they
are acounting for some
of the largest fish being
caught.
Fishing Conditions &
Hatches: Midges,
small May Flies,
leeches and crystal
buggers are your best
choice.
Flies: Poxyback Baetis
Nymph 20, Crystal
Buggers (black)12 Red
Head Midge 18 Aquatic
Water Beetle 16 Willys
Pip 22-24 Parachute
Adams 18-22
Midgeling 20
The Fly Shop's Tips: Full sinking lines and small leeches can be a real
sleeper here! We recommend small bead head leeches. A lot of fish being
taken on midge pupa here-the lake is in good shape.
Hat Creek
Water Conditions:
Opens for fishing on
April 29.See our
Opening Day Tactics
article for details.
Fishing Conditions &
Hatches:
Flies:
Klamath River
Water Conditions: No
report.
Fishing Conditions &
Hatches:
Flies: Stones 4 - 8,
Poxy Back Golden
Stone 8 -10, Gold Bead
Golden Stones 10 -12
Lite Brite Gold Bead
Prince Nymph 14 G.B.
Asassin 6
The Fly Shop's Tips: Swinging Silver Hiltons, Asassins, Mossbacks,
etc..., or dead drifting stonefly nymphs, big birds, and big hare's ears can
produce.
Lewiston Lake
Water Conditions:
Lewiston Lake
conditions are fair. The
fishing has been alright
but not hot- fish are
scattered.
Fishing Conditions &
Hatches: The flows
going through the lake
now are back to
normal- Small leeches
can produce, as well as
midges. The few fish
that have been caught
lately are good sized.
Flies: Ascending
Midges 20, Brassies
22, Callibeatis
Loopwing Emerger 18,
Poxy Back Baetis
Nymphs 18 -20 ,
Woolybuggers 6 -10,
Poxyback Callibaetis
nymph 16-18 B.H.
Brassie 18
The Fly Shop's Tips: Big Eagle Lake rainbows and brookies were
introduced here last year-- should make for some exciting action for Y2K
fishing!!!
McCloud Reservoir
Water Conditions: The
lake is still cold and
slow- leeches fished
deep and slow are your
best bet.
Fishing Conditions &
Hatches: The lake is in
decent shape-mostly
leech fishing. Baitfish
patterns can drum up
some big browns here.
Must have items at this
lake are floating line
with small P.T.'s under
a 'cator with a midge
pupa dropper and an
intermediate to fast
sinking line with
leeches, buggers and
damsel nymphs.
Flies: Sparkle Buggers,
Olive or Black 6-12, B.
H. Sparkle Buggers,
Canadian Mohair
Leechs 8-10 Zonkers
P.T. 16-20 Damsel
nymphs Midge pupa
The Fly Shop's Tips: If you're in this area and looking for some new
water try Iron Canyon Reservoir. The road in demands a truck to be
comfortable and the lake is susceptible to level fluctuations, but there are
a lot of nice 14"-16" trout. (use San Juan worms!!) A boat is useful but not
mandatory here- its a pretty good sized lake.
McCloud River
Water Conditions:
Opens for fishing on
April 29. See our
Opening Day Tactics
article for more details.
Fishing Conditions &
Hatches:
Flies:
Fall River
Water Conditions:
Opens for fishing on
April 29.See our
Opening Day Tactics
article for more details.
Fishing Conditions &
Hatches:
Flies:
Manzanita Lake
Water Conditions:
Open and fishing fair to
good.
Fishing Conditions &
Hatches: This lake has
thawed out and it's
fishing well. Use
nymphs around the inlet
for 'bows and browns
that average 16-20
inches.
Flies: P.T. nymphs
14-18 Zug Bug 14-18
Small leeches and
buggers 8-12 Midge
pupa, Callabaetis
nymphs
McCumber Lake
Water Conditions:
Good- This is usually
our best winter lake
fishery. Because it's
been fishing well, the
lake has been a bit
crowded on some days-
the fishing has held up
well, though.
Fishing Conditions &
Hatches: There are
plenty of big browns
and rainbows in the
lake. Midge pupa and
tiny P.T.'s suspended
under an indicator are
very effective, as are
small crystal buggers
and leeches on an
intermediate line.
Flies: Poxyback
Callibaetis Nymph
18,Ascending Midges
20, B.H. Brassies 18 -
20, Crystal Buggers
10-12 Beaded
Flashback P.T. Nymph
16 Bead Head Leeches
8 Spotlight Callibaetis
16 Poxyback
Callibaetis nymph
16-18 Mercer
Midgeling 18-20
The Fly Shop's Tips: This mid-elevation lake is fairly full and probably a
stillwater flyfishers best bet. The lake has some large browns and quite
possibly the fattest rainbows in the area.
Pit River
Water Conditions:
Opens for fishing on
April 29.See our
Opening Day Tactics
article for more details.
Fishing Conditions &
Hatches:
Flies:
Sacramento (Lower)
Water Conditions: The
flows on the Lower Sac
are 8,500 cfs (with no
scheduled changes.)
The caddis hatches are
coming off strong!
Fishing has been fair to
good, and should only
get better with higher
water. Wading can be
tough at 8,000 to 9,000
cfs. Wade with
caution!!
Fishing Conditions &
Hatches: The flows
are at 8,500 cfs as of
4/13/00. Give us a call
at (530)222-3555 for
up to the minute
information.
Flies: Birds Nest
#14-16, Prince nymph
#14-16, G.B. Flashback
P.T. Nymph #16=(HOT
BUG RIGHT NOW!!!),
Fox's Poopah #14
olive, LaFontain pupa
#14-16 grn/olv, Little
Brown Bug 16,
Mercer's Z-Wing pupa
#14-18 grn/olv
Glasstail Caddis
Pupa,olive or brown 14
The Fly Shop's Tips: We like to fish the Lower Sacramento with nymphs
and indicators. It's by far the most productive way to fish this river. Most
of the time we fish two flies under our indicators, the larger fly on top ie.
sz.(14) caddis followed by a smaller fly sz.(16 - 18)mayfly. A natural,
dead drift is the key here. Flies need to be on or near the bottom.We're just
starting to see a few fish keying in on dries- the nymphing has been steady,
though.
Sacramento (Upper)
Water Conditions:
Opens for fishing on
April 29.See our
Opening Day Tactics
article for more details.
Fishing Conditions &
Hatches:
Flies:
Trinity River
Water Conditions: The
river is closed to
fishing. See our
Opening Day Tactics
article for more details.
Fishing Conditions &
Hatches:
Flies:
Whiskeytown Lake
Water Conditions:
FULL SINKING LINE
FISHERY - Cold water
Fishing Conditions &
Hatches: Trout will
usually take buggers
and nymphs by Carr
Power House.
Remember-- no fishing
in the moving water, as
this is considered Clear
Creek. You have to fish
the still water where
the stream turns into the
lake.
Flies: Aggravator
Nymphs 6, A.P. Black
Nymphs10-12, P.T.
Nymphs12-14, Wooly
Buggers6-8
thanks ray. You fish, play cards and (seemingly golf). Forget I wanna be like Mike. Has Nike ever contacted you for a commercial? I wanna be like Ray
Though it's been many years(late 70's) since I'v fished Hat Creek,I believe one should have some pattern"s to match The Little Yellow Stone(Yellow Sallie). Check local favorits. I agree with Ray that small nymphs dead drifted in the runs are productive. The flat water streaches are challenging, match the hatch and execute. The Casino Club used to have deceant lowball games late 70s early 80s. Don,t know much abgout it now, they do advertise fast 10-20 15-30 hold em. Upper Sac worth checking out if you like freestone type streams. Post trip report both fishing and poker. I used to spend my winters in Eureaka and frequentlly travelled to Redding to chase fish and play lowball. Its a nice area though many people.
...rely on tips? I'm never sure if I should tip these people when I'm cashing out, or when I'm buying chips. I've heard that poker dealers only get minimum wage, so I can understand them being heavily reliant on tips.
Donald
I do not know about chip runners, but the people in the cashout cages do not rely on tips. I rarely see them get a tip in AC. Occasionally when someone cashes in some big chips, they will get a small tip.
I don't know the details, but I'm kinda curious as to why the question is do they instead of should they?
JG
Semantics shmantics. Any other questions, feel free to ask.
Cashiers are generally not tipped, chip runners generally are, $1 or $.50.
Has anybody played since the N/S rule went into effect?
Paul
Paul,
Played at FX on Sunday, the first day of the NS rule. Hate to reveal this, but I'm a smoker (I know, I know, but have you examined my life lately?)and, believe it or not, I have no problem with not smoking at the tables. Of course, if someone who sat next to me objected to smoking, I would get up and walk around anyway, so I might not be the right smoker to voice opinions about the subject.
Actually, two benefits arise from not smoking at the table. One, I cut down markedly on the number of butts I had during the day. I usually, in my work life, smoke less than a pack a day, but while playing I smoke up to two packs. That day I played for ten hours and smoked less than ten cigarettes. The second benefit might be even better. When I took a bad beat, I walked off for a smoke and took some time to think about what happened instead of, perhaps, playing a hand rashly or stupidly.
Result for the day: +$600.00 in 5-10HE w/ a kill. Now if I took a bad loss....
Regards,
John
Thanks John,
Were the tables short most of the time due to people smoking? I haven't played in a while the smoking was killing me and I decided to take a rest. Seems like your on the way to quiting if you can cut down that much in one day.
good luck paul
Paul,
There were two or three smokers at the table, and we tended to get up when our blinds were coming; however, rarely did more than two of us go at once, so the table wasn't shorthanded for long. I do see one big problem coming, though. In the 5-10 games, we have two or three players who are notorious for entering a game, playing two or three hands, and then disappearing for an hour or so. Put those two or three at one table, combined with a couple smokers, and I forsee shorthanded play all night (or day). Time will tell, but I think a third "man" walking rule will probably be necessary at some point.
As Greg said, smoke drifting in from all over did not seem to be a major problem, and I think non-smokers will welcome the change. And, even though I smoke, I support the change, too.
Now, though, the places where I can smoke are all beginning to vanish: my only refuge is my car, and that's only when I'm driving alone.
Regards,
John
I played the Tuesday night NL HE tourney at Foxwoods last night, and the lack of smoke was great. There was no problem with smoke bleeding over from other areas. I came home and did not reek of smoke.
The only remaining smoking effects on the poker player are the areas that you must pass through to reach the poker room. Smoking is allowed in these other rooms, as well as the bathrooms. So, it's not 100% avoidable, but it's not bad enough to make your clothes stink when you get home.
I've been at MS on a non-smoking night previously, and the issues are about the same there. The room was OK, but you had to walk through the rest of the place to get there, and smoking occurred. I did notice a faint smell of smoke on me when I got home from that last session at MS, so there may be more problem from smoke coming into the poker room than at FW.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
with the smoke gone ill try to get there sometime for a tournament. wait awhile then work on getting the bathrooms smoke free,as that should be easy.
in cal. they had walkers for awhile then those guys soon ran out took their break and rushed back in. later they cut down on their smoking. now i dont believe many games go short because of the smokers. in foxwoods with the cleaner air it should be nice. but i wonder if the smell from all those fossils on the table will now be objectionable:)
Ray,
I think you'll probably smell the FossilMan before you smell the fossils. You do know, don't you, that John Waters got the idea for Odorama after a chat with me at the Bike?
Be sure to email me in advance of your visit. Even during the non-tournament time, there is frequently one big game going, usually half-HE, half-stud, at stakes from 75-150 up to 200-400. It also often is played as HOE or HOSE. You should do well, although there is rarely more than 1 really weak spot. The stud games are always going at least as high as 40-80.
During tourney time, there are multiple games going at many higher levels. This year, we always had 30-60 HE going, and often 50-100. The stud games were 40-80, 75-150. The mixed big game was going strong at 150-300 and I think 300-600 for a bit.
Also, the tournament fields are rather weak (though nowhere near as weak as a year ago). Of course, with a good 150-300 mixed game going, I doubt you'll enter a 500 buyin tournament anyway. I do hear that they're adding a 5,000 NL HE tourney this winter, so you definitely can consider that one.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
z
Any of you 2+2 ers gonna play in this.
I just got signed up.
Look for this big ugly guy.
I'll be in Vegas on th 29th. What is this target satellite? If Rounder is in it, I definitely want to play.
-Michael T.
Hey I had to pass a test to get in and have 2 guys vouch for me so I doubt if you could play - it is for RGP posters only. I'd like to meet any 2+2 guys out there and if you are smart you'd follow me around and enter any sats, supers or live games I get into as I am playing/running so bad right now I may never win again.
:-)
2? Wow. I can't imagine who the other one is. I guess I misjudged you.
JG
JohnneyD :-)
Thanks for the good word Jim.
Hi, I run the TARGET satellite. If you are a rec.gambling.poker regular and are interested in playing, you need to contact me ASAP.
My e-mail is kubey@sgi.com
I've heard a few times that there is a new casino nearly finished somewhere towards the end of the 91 Freeway, but nobody can give the specifics. Like the name of the casino, or the name of the city, or when they plan to open. Can you help me out?
Thanks,Fred
I think you are referring to Hustler Casino,owned by the infamous Larry Flint of magazine fame.They have been advertising in the Poker mags.Redondo Beach Blvd,Gardena.Waitress uniforms should be interesting.
Hey what else have people heard about this? I was told about six months ago that this place is supposed to be huge, bigger than Commerce because otherwise Larry Flynt wouldn't have bothered building it. I also heard that he talked Eric Drache into coming in to run the show. Is that true? Well I would have to say that Flynt certainly has a chance in getting out a crowd to a cardroom that may not have come before, especially if he advertises it much in his magazines.
The one thing I don't understand is even with all these cardrooms in LA, every time I go down there to play (thank god for smoke free rooms) the time or drop charge has gone up yet again. I mean really, $4/hand for 6-12 is an outrage. With all that competition it seems like one raises the price, in this case Commerce had it that high first, then next thing you know everyone matches it in a few months. What gives in the free enterprise system? I don't think with what I have heard about the Hustler that its going to sell itself with low time charges.
I'd like to believe that with Cali going to full service Casinos the competion will help fight escalating fees.If a significant % leave poker for the slots/tables maybe the cardrooms will have to compete for customers.
MS,
If slots are allowed in card clubs but new casinos are not allowed to open fast enough, poker will be reduced in favor or slots and the poker that remains will be charged higher fees. Take that one to the bank ;-).
Rick
if unlimited slots come in all the casinos will instantly take out all poker games in favor of slots until they rebuild bigger joints, just like it is in the other states that got gambling. take that to the bank as well.
ray,
you raised me and I have to fold. I hope I end up losing to a bluff because otherwise we here in California are all out of a job.
Rick
WildBill,
This place is on the old Eldorado property and should be about half the size of the current Commerce. I'm not sure of Eric's status.
Although Los Angeles has a lot of large card rooms relative to other metro areas, there is only the appearance of competition. In essence, it is almost impossible to open a new one (Mr. Flynt is taking over an existing property after rebuilding and even he has had trouble getting a license).
I maintain that no one knows how many more clubs the market could support if good businessmen could open one as easily as one could open a Home Depot and not have much government interference on rakes, extra taxes and so on. My gut feeling is that in this fantasy scenario, the market could support five times as many well located clubs.
Regards,
Rick
Oh without a doubt. I moved to Vegas from just north of San Jose. I was 10 miles from Bay 101 and that was considered "close" to the room. Now in Vegas I am 2 miles from a casino and 6 miles from the center of the Strip and some say I live "far" away. The problem in CA is the whole concept of gambling just irks too many people. I mean look at how badly some card room issues have lost. The one most appaling was at Bay Meadows in San Mateo. That is about the most fertile piece of cardroom territory anyone could dream of! There is no real rooms from Artichokes/Lucky Chances all the way down to Garden City. There are a few very small rooms in between, but notthing over 3 tables. It also happens to be about the wealthiest stretch of land in the world too with almost every significant tech company there as well as having a ton of single men with huge disposable income. An absolute gold mine. Well the race track that gets next to no business and is doing so poorly they sold off their barns and truck all their horses in daily. They wanted to build a good sized room just like Hollywood Park, but the opposition conjured up these images of high crime and traffic and you name it. Its not like they were introducing gambling to the neighborhood, it was already there in the track! However as usually happens, the no vote scared everyone off because frankly no matter where you put it, a card room is only going to appeal to a very small part of the population. As my buddy pointed out, in that area half or more of their customers would be Asians, probably a good number of them non-citizens that can't vote for it. It got smashed, the vote wasn't even close. The same scenario will play out statewide, the only places willing to take a room are places like San Pablo and Hawaiian Gardens, two seriously run down cities that couldn't even field youth sports leagues before for lack of funding. People couldn't complain about housing values going down because they couldn't go any lower. Those cities are the only places you will see any more rooms so even if there is a market for 5 times as many, this has never been about market share. Also don't forget the extortionist rates these rooms pay to their cities. 13% of the revenue, I think it is, goes to the City of San Jose from their 2 rooms. That is enough money to provide for 10% of the budget of a city of almost 1 million people!!! The economics are incredible for the few rooms that do exist but if they started getting enough competition they would go out of business because no business can give away that much of their revenue as well as pay other taxes and still make it.
As for the slots arguments, well I seriously doubt you will see much in the way of slots in the big cities. Sure they will have them out with the indians, but I don't think too many potential scenarios like what might happen with San Pablo is going to occur. The voters I think approved the measure with the consideration that you still will have to drive a distance to be able to gamble in these casinos. I don't think too many would be comfortable if full casinos were sprouting up near them and there probably would be quite a backlash to that. If it ever does happen, poker would dry up not only because of revenue, but because many of the live ones wouldn't play poker anymore. When I went to the rooms there I always thought just how good the games would be if they could somehow get rid of the California games.
wildbill,
Great post. I haven't kept up with the poker politics in Northern California to the degree you have but everything you say seems to make sense.
I live in Cypress, the city with the Los Alamitos racetrack. Several years ago, the card room initiative was trounced at the polls. Before the election, the mailings pro and con were about two feet high (I actually kept them for a while). Cypress is a town that does well for itself, especially in this one area with the corporate headquarters of a lot of Japanese companies and room to grow since strawberry fields surround the office parks.
Just to the north is Hawaiian Gardens. Even after the voters approved it, it took years before they got anything going due to all the lawsuits and opposition from the AG and so on. Only now are turning into a full size room and they essentially have big tents for their facility.
You wrote: "As for the slots arguments, well I seriously doubt you will see much in the way of slots in the big cities. Sure they will have them out with the indians, but I don't think too many potential scenarios like what might happen with San Pablo is going to occur. The voters I think approved the measure with the consideration that you still will have to drive a distance to be able to gamble in these casinos. I don't think too many would be comfortable if full casinos were sprouting up near them and there probably would be quite a backlash to that."
I hope you are right about slots in the big cities. But stranger things have happened when big money is involved. I agree the voters never intended to see slots in cities, but proposition whatevernumber gave the Indians a lot of latitude and their lawyers and PR is getting to be first rate. I don't know much about San Pablo but I'll try to look it up on rgp via deja.com.
Anyway, besides destroying poker, slots and easy access gambling destroy lives. Las Vegas is OK for gambling. You have to drive four hours or fly to get there. But replace the poker section of the Commerce, HWP and the Bike with slots and a lot of local people who barely have enough to cover next months rent and feed their kids may blow off the food money on slots. This happens in poker but not nearly as often and most that lose can afford it.
"If it ever does happen, poker would dry up not only because of revenue, but because many of the live ones wouldn't play poker anymore. When I went to the rooms there I always thought just how good the games would be if they could somehow get rid of the California games.
It happened for one day about eleven years ago. The sheriff shut down the Asian games and they flooded the 15/30 holdem and other games. Talk about wild, loose, and crazy. It was unbelievable.
Thanks again for the interesting post.
Regards,
Rick
Hey Rick I grew up in Los Alamitos so believe me I know the area and its situation well. My step mother used to always go to the bingo parlors of HG. HG has always had higher stakes bingo than the local churches, although the churches tried to keep up wiht big jackpots and all. Well I talked to her about it last time I was in Los Al and she said the bingo dens are nearly empty now. Seems the double whammy of a cardroom and no smoking has just killed them. She now goes to Church bingo instead. From what I understand the people of HG just figured they were already a "gambling" town of sorts because of the numerous bingo places and figured why not a classier cardroom. After all the city has gone more "upscale" with that new shopping area on the other side of the 605. That is the way a poor city these days promises its residents renewal, a cardroom and shopping that brings in tax dollars from richer neighbors that would have no other reason to go there. That is how San Pablo got their cardroom approved.
I always thought about how crazy the city of Los Alamitos was. Originally Los Alamitos racetrack was in the city of Los Alamitos. The city politicians thought it was dirty to have gambling in the city so they basically gave away the track and some neighboring land to Cypress. Even though that track has seen better days, it still brings money in and provides jobs, and its not like the area around the track is a dump; its about the same as the rest of Cypress. Once again proof that all the naysayers of gambling aren't right. Just because gambling is around, doesn't mean that the neighborhood becomes crime infested. Hell malls have just as much crime associated with them but you rarely see cities try to block them being built.
wildbill,
I drove by that bingo hall in HG all the time and never thought about it. Then it showed up on a "60 Minutes" segment regarding Dr. Moscovitz (sp?) and his support of Israeli settlements outside what was sanctioned by the Israeli government. BTW, I think that new shopping plaza that replaced the VA hospital is in Long Beach. The Edwards Theater there has great stadium seating and 26 screens (most of them pretty big).
I didn't know that the track used to be in Los Alamitos. I did wonder why they called it Los Alamitos race track. The office development just east of it on Katella Avenue is astonishing. Regarding neighborhoods, there is no question the area around the Bike is much nicer than it was fifteen years ago. The Commerce is an industrial stretch that seems to prosper and the area around the Normandie at least has some new shopping. Hawaiian Gardens is not so bad considering. I stop at Tacos San Pedro (across the street from the casino) all the time and feel safe.
Regards,
Rick
If every card room in California would close tomorrow it "wouldn't amount to a hill of beans." The wealth of California is created by production and innovation. One thing no one ever talks about is why Caucasians and blacks are not represented proportionally according to their demographics in the California card room industry. I use the term industry loosley. Asians are over represented. Why is that? Does anybody really care? About time?
Should we go lobby at a suburban Starbucks and try to get people to try more cardrooms? Maybe we need more white business owners to take all the money they have in the till from the day and play some 20-40 with it! Come on why even have this discussion? Anyone who wants to work in this industry is free to do so. And while you are at it, why are blacks so damn unrepresented in the dry cleaning industry? Or why are so few straight guys hairstylists? Or why are men not allowed to be topless dancers? You can come up with thousands of "injustices" in any "industry" but complaining that this one is unfair has got to be a joke.
I thought I would bring it up because it makes people uncomfortable to have to think about these kinds of things. I also think that it is wrong. Along the lines of making people uncomfortable next year we will have a prison population of over 2,000,000 for the first time. I think this is a national disgrace.
And your suggestion is that we bar Asians from entering until we get a balance??? Further how do you get people that don't enjoy gambling to be dealers. While its not a requirement, very few people with a distaste for gambling will be willing to toil in the gambling world, whether you think its right or not. The plain truth is that of all anti-gambling opponents I have met, only one was a non-white. White people have the lock on the anti-gambling push. That being the case, it seems unlikely they nor black people will be pushing the Asians out to make sure people like you that do nothing but try to stress stupid points of fake equality will ever be happy? So Mr. prison population, this is one I really hate hearing...do you think we should maybe go out and raise our white children to be more handy with crime to even out the jail population? Yeah I know you will talk of how we don't give this or that opportunity, but you fail to offer any real realistic answers, just whine and try to raise awareness that you are just real stupid in believing most people would have sympathy for any of your causes.
Would anyone know of any good Hold'em tournaments in Las Vegas from July 10-14?
Also, it's been about six years since I last went; does anyone recommend one poker room over another?
Go to pokerpages.com for tournament listings.
Priceline.com with William Shatner doing some kinda singing poetry with a band backing him up. It's so corny, I get goosebumps all over my body and get chills up my spine.
And that's Carrie Brownstein from Sleater-Kinney, the world's coolest band, on bass in that commercial. Go forth and purchase their albums.
If you know Will Shatner's past work, you'd see the campy humor of these commercials. If you've never heard it, check out his rendition of "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds", which has been re-released on the Rhino label, along with Leonard Nemoy singing a rousing rendition of "If I Had a Hammer". It's a gem.
The current commercial that really chaps my ass is the new Ford one with that pre-pubescent Irish girl singing. Why spend millions of dollars on the piece, the air-time, etc: When you can't understand a friggin word of the song she's singing??
As for my current favorite, it's gotta be E*Trade: He's got money coming out the WAZOO!!
I like the low tech B & W commercials for Cannon.
This is the worst commercial I have ever seen - it does what you don't want a commercial to do - it makes you HATE the sponsor. I hate priceline and will never use their lousy service.
BTW the service is a waste of time.
Worst Current: any 1-800-CALLATT Best Current: Kobe Bryant vs. the fat kid 1 on 1 Best all time: I wanna be like Mike (cuz who doesn't?) or Bud Bowl (any commercial that bookies take action on has to be great) Worst all time: see worst current (god, i hate that guy!!)
I am going to be in Stuttgart Germany in a couple of weeks, does anyone one know if they have Casinos with poker games near by?
Thanks
Sme
try the European Poker Players Website http://eppa.bigfoot.com/ It has a list of German Poker clubs in its European Poker Clubs index
HOW DOES THE WSOP CD-ROM GAME COMPARE TO THE REAL THING? IS IT A GOOD SIMULATION OR NOT? ANY REPLIES ARE WELCOMED.
There is some more discussion of this in the archives. (Note that the playing logic is the same as in the old DOS version of the game). It's worth the money, if nothing more than to use for satellite practice and "stage control" of your stack during various portions of the main event. I can't vouch for the play of the stud or hold-em games though. Nor can you assume that the players in the main event are as unreadable or as skilled as those you will face in the real thing.
I've had the game for years and have used it mainly for NL satellite practice. Since the limits of these things go up so quick and the luck factor is so much higher, it makes sense that this portion of the game is closer to realistic than any other.
Finally, if you use it in conjunction with a poker probe or other evaluation tool, it's handy for constructing and evaluating pre-flop and post-flop hands for various all-in situations.
I enjoyed the guy's writing a lot.
I knew David fairly well. We corresponded some, and when he was in town we occasionally got a cup of coffee together. He was a fine person and will be missed by all who knew him.
Total Poker was the first true gem of poker writing for those of us who also play the game to enjoy the history, the background, and simply, the fun of it all. His description of Puggy's 1973 World Series win was in itself worth the price of the book. My battered copy from 1977 is still sitting on my bookshelf and will remain a time-honored classic.
Wordsmiths like David Spanier are the best ambassadors we have to keep bringing the magic of the game to the rest of the world. Despite him never being a championship player, the poker world has one fewer luminaries now -- he will be missed.
David Spanier and his British poker literature contemporaries (Anthony Holden, etc.) definately increased my interest in the game. I always liked to gamble and considered poker to be just one more way to put my money in action. Whenever I read a normal poker book I discounted most of what was said to hype because the hero always seemed to draw the exact card that he needed. Granted, I accepted the skill of the top players, but put that down as superior talent, and I felt that, barring ESP, I would never be able to beat the game without an great lifetime run of cards. David Spanier changed all of that. His love of the game, transmitted through his writing, spurred me to investigate the subtleties and nuances intrinsic to poker. His self-depricating humor and admission that he was not a world-class player encouraged me to improve my game by showing me that improvement can be made and that even normal talents like myself can be consistent winners. Most of all, he was a damn good writer. We in the poker world are lucky that this world-class writer chose to chronicle our game, but I would probably read him regardless of the subject matter that his pen took him to.
I too have enjoyed Total Poker. May David Spanier rest in peace. Just curious, what did he die of?
Spanier's death is a great loss. Hopefully, his new book will still be published. The first book I ever read about poker was "Biggest Game in Town", and I know that "Total Poker" and "Big Deal" have been similarily influential. Something about the British "style", I guess; weary, jaded, cynical, but never contemptuous and always hopeful; sly humor but never sarcastic; ironic and self-depracating, but not self-pitying.
American journalists & authors (i.e. those who can really "write"; sorry, Mason :) ), just can't seem to shake their awe of the Vegas spectacle, and the idea that poker is all luck and/or cheating and/or hopeless for the novice to win at.
God bless David Spanier; and Al Alvarez and Tony Holden, as well.
When I lived in England there was a TV series on called the Big Deal I loved it it was about a punter (bettor) who got in all sorts of trouble and ended up in Australia. Was it made from Davids book.
.
I'm a player who lives between Washington and Baltimore. Aside from AC, where are places to play in Baltimore, DC, even Northern VA area? Are there clubs, tournies, anything?
I understand that the southern Atlantic seaboard is a poker desert. You have to go to Florida, Mississippi, or the Ohio river to find the nearest game.
It would seem that your only available gambling venue is Atlantic Shitty. I pity you. But take heart! There are many airfare specials to Vegas from BWI in the summer....
American Psycho - Saw it last night and loved it, although it's definitely not for everyone. Fantastic satire of the 80's; from fashion, music, movies on down. I think this is what Oliver Stone had in mind with Natural Born Killers (still the worst movie of all time, BTW) before his ego got in the way and he had to show the world what an artiste' he was.
Croupier - An independent British film about gambling/crime??!! I'm there, Dude. Anybody see Lock, Stock & Two Smoking Barrels? Awesome movie; much better than Pulp Fiction IMO.
Ghost Dog/The Way of The Samurai - Forest Whitaker stars, need I say more? Ya'll remember him from Fast Times at Ridgemont High, Platoon, and The Color of Money (hustlin' the hustler), don't ya?
Didn't see the last 2 but American Psycho sucked - what a f***ed up movie. BTW did he ever kil those people or not - he was some screwed up guy - glad he wasn't a card player.
Lock stock and 2 smoking barrels was good, as a guy who lived and gambled in England for many years I got it.
There is a good one out on tape now called the Limey see it if you like the Cockney types.
Good lord Rounder,
You "got" lock stock and two smoking barrels? Which part did you get? The 3 minute poker scene or the 110 minute blood, carnage, double crossing, shooting gallery? Oh sure, I found it enjoyable, but I don't think anyone could get it. If I want incoherent storylines, I'll go rent Mission Impossible.
..I'll see Croupier tonight. Man, three good new releases in a row; that hasn't happened in awhile.
Rounder, I've been meaning to rent The Limey for some time now. And the operative word for American Psycho is "satire". You obviously didn't watch enough MTV or read enough People magazine in the '80s.. :)
Dan, you're right, MI sucked, and MI2 looks even worse.
,
I have been asked by a casino manager whether I could calculate the expected cost of various combinations of "cash hands prizes" which they may offer to stud players (i.e., players will win a certain amount of money for specific hands), as well as the probabilities for a potential "bad beat" jackpot. My question is: What is the range of reasonable and customary compensation for such services?
Since most casino managers are utter morons they won't know that you can do these problems in less than an hour. So charge them $100 an hour but tell them you did 20 hours of work
You bill like my Lawyer.
Mike,
Does this mean your lawyer thinks you are a moron? If so, maybe he should sleep with the fishes.
Just kidding!
Rick
While there is a certain reasonableness to this advice, following it would make you guilty of business fraud in most states. If you tell someone you're charging them an hourly fee, you need to bill them for only the actual hours worked, or you're breaking the law. If the bill includes any hours not actually worked, it needs to be spelled out in the bill itself, or in the disclosure prior to commencing work.
You can say that you're worth $100/hour, and that this task MIGHT require 20 hours or more. Then say "How about a flat fee of $2,000.?" As long as you don't lie, it's not business fraud.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You should learn to stop insulting morons in that manner.
I know very few who don't like to play golf, see lots of movies and of course play golf. Lots have computers and are on the net. I know we are mostly independent types but we seem to have a lot of "other" things in common. Including above average IQs.
General comments but interesting to me.
I was also impressed with the number of players who seem to enjoy fly-fishing. BTW, the only reason my hours drop during the summer is because the glof courses are playable.
Hey I agree with the fishing thing. It's just I own a fishing resort in Indiana and spent 11 years fishing my brains out. I need a rest.
I own a fishing resort in Indiana
Hey Rounder ,
I was looking for a place to do some fishing with my son. Can u send me any info on the resort?
MJ
Sure - Call 219-653-2017 Ask them to send you a brochure.
Nice little 250 acre lake. 2 hours from down town chicago.
.
Mike let me know if you are gonna go up I'll get you a deal on a cottage.
.
Rounder,
Does playing golf indicate an above average IQ? Does playing poker indicate an above average IQ? Does watching movies indicate an above average IQ? I think the answer is no, but there's certainly a strong correlation, and I think it's based on money. All of these activities--and, of course, many more--require disposable income. For most, that income comes from holding a fairly good job, which, in turn, usually requires an above average IQ.
And, the same case can be made for those who own computers and use the net.
What always surprises me, though, is the quality of writing done by various posters. Most posters express complex ideas succintly, often with great humor. Every time I read one of Roy West's inane columns, I wish it were Vince Lepore, Rounder, Rick Nebiolo, Izmet, Dan Rubenstein, GD, or any one of countless others doing the writing.
Although I am much too polite to engage in any sort of back and forth bickering, it's very entertaining, nonetheless. And, at heart, and perhaps this best characterizes the various posters, is a willingness by all to share their expertise with schmucks like me.
Well, that's the commonality I see.
Regards,
John
PS. My handicap fluctuates between 9-16.
Mine fluctuates between 40 and 40.
John,
Since you run that college writing lab, you should know the answer to this. Regarding Roy West, is it possible for an author to be sued for plagiarizing himself? I skim his column and if I see "Play happy or don't play" one more time, I may be forced to take drastic action or else I will lose what little sanity I have left.
Regards,
Rick
P.S. I never thought of you as a schmuck, but I will consider it in the future.
Rick,
No, he can't be sued. We call this "playgarism" when an author engages in this practice. However, I've checked with legal counsel, and any action you take, no matter how drastic, can be easily forgiven. John Feeney can testify in regards to your temporary insanity.
John
.
Is it that poker players play golf, or that golfers play poker (gin, hearts, bridge,fill in your 'road game' here)?
I think it is such a part of the gambling nature of golf that golf addicts (are there any other kind?) naturally gravitate to other gambling games when the weather is bad, after the round, on days ending in "Y", etc. Nature or nurture?
Handicap Factor (it's not called Index any more) 3.2
P.S. My buddy Don is leaving Phoenix today to come home. I'm losing my lovely smoke-free environment of the past four months. He's sad to leave both because of the weather, and he was crushing that 3-6 Kill game at McKillips. Sorry I didn't get a chance to get down this winter; maybe this fall.
Dunc,
Don is a great guy tell him hi from me when he gets back to the great northern territory.
Mike
One Saturday night during a summer at UC Davis a couple of friends and I were sitting around watching The Color of Money and playing nickle, dime, quarter dealer's choice. After the movie ended we decided to check out the water hazards at the local golf course. We terrorized the bass in there for a few hours. No point to this post. just thought it was interesting, given the subject of the thread. P.S. Deer hair frogs killed them that night.
I don't play golf, never been interested. I see very few movies, prefer to read. Flyfishing is my passion and I'd probably give up poker if forced to choose between the two, by the way I fish better then I play. I just recently and reluctantly got on the net, but then I'm only of average intelligence.
Going to SF on business next month. Any poker rooms in San Francisco proper?
Notlegal ones in the city itself, but Lucky Chances are both about fifteen minutes by car.
x
None in SF proper, by law, but 15 min south in San Bruno is Artichoke Joe's, about the same distance in Colma is Lucky Chances, just across the Bay Bridge in Emeryville is the Oaks, and up Hwy 80 in San Pablo is the imaginatively named Club San Pablo. All of these clubs are in the 30-50 table range and all spread the same types of games, with similar house fees. In ranking them, MHO: 1.Oaks 2. Artichoke Joe's 3. Casino San Pablo 98. Lucky Chances
Wow you are about opposite what most people say there. I have been out of the Bay Area for about 6 months now, but Oaks is notorious for tight games and AJ's lost so much of their action to Lucky Chances that they are just a low limit crowd now. Where you go depends alot on what game and limit you want. Bay Area is almost all Hold'Em though with 3-6 and 6-12 everywhere. If you want insane amount of action and are willing to drive a little bit go out to California Grand in Pacheco. Its about 35 mins during non-rush hour and you won't believe the action you get in 6-12 on most days. If its quiet you will just be playing some props it won't be that live, but if there are a couple of games going the main game will be a sight to see at times. There are about 10 known pot builders/chip burners and if two are in a game its a joke. I have been in many a game there where average pots were over $300 for hours at a time. The 3-6 game is even more outrageous, but the drop is rather high at $4 a pot. They also have a very loose 4-8 omaha game. Just cut out a coupon for the free $30 that is always in Card Player and you can play pretty close to drop free for a few hours.
The trailer syas it all about the movie.
Gladiator- Two Thumbs Up; count me in. This genre does not have to be very good for me to like it, and this one looks good.
The Patriot- Ditto the comments above. Although I don't think there has ever been a decent Revolutionary War movie that I can remember.
Nutty Professor II- Give me a break! They usually show ALL of the funny parts in the traile and this trailer didn't cause one chuckle in the entire theater. If thats the good parts, th bad parts must be excruciating.
Oh yeah; the movie I saw.
That U something or another about the submarine. I liked it, despite the tepid critical reaction. You must be prepared to suspend reality, though. And cynics should steer clear.
U-571 had some chilling sound effects - made me jump and that takes a lot.
Michael 7,
I'll probably see U571 because I worked on fire control software and hardware for Los Angeles class attack subs in the eighties. But after reading Ebert's review, I may see Gladiator first.
The best submarine movie by far is "Das Boot" (subtitled) or "The Boat" (dubbed). A couple of years ago a longer director's cut was released, which is great except for one line where they changed an incredibly dramatic moment for the sake of political correctness.
Regards,
Rick
Rick listening to Ebert about movies is like listening to me about poker advice. :-)
Eibert is more concerned with PC than a real movie.
BTW - in 1942 would you expect a black guy on a sub I thought the armed forces were segregated until the 50's.
just a thought.
On PP last night. I got Aces cracked.
Two hands in a row!
p.s. I wuz robbed!
This one's almost as bad. It happened to me at the Carnivale of Poker this year. I've got the BB. Everyone folds to me, including the SB. I look at my cards--Pocket Aces.
The forum is flipping out.
Go to GD's response in the Cancelling cash giveaway thread on the Hold'em forum.
It's carazy!
james H.,
I think there was some kind of software mind meld at 2+2. The title of the post indicates GD of Colorado but it was written by my friend John Cole from Rhode Island. Besides the email address, I can tell because I know John's style and GD does not use paragraphs.
Regards,
Rick
james H.,
Actually, I was responding in kind to Dan Osman who threw in some sort of zen koan, I think. Anyway, it was incomprehensible to me, but I thought maybe David would award the 25 Gs to the most bizarre post, so I was trying for it.
BTW, "Oh my God" is close; the line comes from the Book of Isiah--maybe?
Shame of shames!!! In the current issue of CardPlayer so-called "legitimate journalist" Suzie Isaacs invents a ghost story in order to create interest in her friend's Reno Casino. It's probably doing poor business. What's next? Loch Ness? Big foot?
Rumor has it that the late Tex Sheehan, not Bobby Baldwin, wrote Tales Out Of Tulsa, a book attributed to Baldwin. Is there truth to this rumor?
It is my understanding (not well documented) that the name "Tales Out of Tulsa" was the title of a series of columns Bobby used to write for a defunct poker/gambling magazine, and that the book is basically just a compilation of those articles. If this is correct, it seems unlikely that Tex wrote them all.
Either way, the book isn't very good. I don't recommend it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Does anybody know if the new Detroit casinos are going to have poker?
How do the Super Satellites at WSOP work? What's the buy-in? How many entrants? How many Satellites? In other words, what does it take to win a seat at the main event?
Buy ins $220 bebuys of $200 - each buy gets you T$200.
There are as many players as they can muster and they award as many seats as possible. Last year there were from around 150 to 200 playing for the seats. The best players (also the worst) in the world are playing in them.
Hope this helps.
x
Best advice is to wait a few days into the WSOP to let the cream of the crop get their spots and also to get more entries. Unless you are solid shorthanded, you are better off getting into one that will reward at least 5 or 6 seats. Also look for one during the same day as a NL event. Then the better players are generally busy playing in the tournament. I have seen quite a few poor players win seats as when the field gets bigger it just takes a couple of key pots and the luck that goes with them.
Last year was my 1st WSOP - after 3 tournaments in Arizona. Figured I better see how the best play. I had won $6K prize the week before and figured I was ready for it. LOL
The SSats I played in the 1st weekend they were giving away 2-3 seats and 2nd weekend there were 5-6 seats going. I don't think the better players are not playing after they win one they were in all of them but while the event is being played is good advice.
To keep them playing, they will let winners play more and sell the chips, but always remember if you do win the super, you have to play in the big dance. I remember one guy winning one a couple years back and then he realized when it started. He said, "oh no I thought it was a week earlier"! He argued that it was unfair that all these other satellite specialists were selling their won chips left and right, but of course its plain in the rules you have to play the first one you win.
Last I heard, maybe 2 or 3 seats are going each super right now. I am sure this weekend will start bringing the bigger action and have seen up to 8 seats going. Truth is the very best players are better playing shorthanded so they are out trying to win one-table satellites so after they win one seat in the dance they rarely continue playing them. Also the other big names don't play the satellites as much after winning a seat as they would rather play in the side games. So it is definitely true, you start getting lesser players as the tournament goes on and more seats as well. I mean in the first few seats given out in satellites I recognized about half the names as being solid players so obviously they can't be that live yet.
A super-satellite is much harder to win than a single-table. A "couple of key pots" might get you in fighting shape, but pre-final table strategy and then final table strategy are both much more important and much more decisive in whether or not you get a seat. Those who know how to win a seat are often more concerned about the hands they should NOT be involved in rather than the hands they DO get involved with.
Leaving for the WSOP thurs 4/27. Planning to play in the traget NL HE contest on Sat at noon at the Saraha and the friday night NL HE7pm at the Rio. I will be looking for other NL HE tourneys and sats and SS at binions and plaza.
Anyone interested in a cup of coffee between contests I'm up for it.
What's the deal at the Rio on Friday night? I would like to play this one as I will have all day on Saturday to win a $2000 NLH satellite for the WSOP.
I'll try to track you down at Binions on Thursday night or Friday. I'll be getting my fill of satellites, as I know you will.
-Michael Tedesco
Look for me at the sats at binions or plaza.
Or maybe the deli - munching on a pastrami sandwich.
My pic is on Dick's page.
Mike Guzaldo
What are these tournaments you are talking about? The Rio has nothing poker anymore, not even a simple little room is there. The Sahara has a small low limit room, but no tournaments I know of.
The action you are looking for is at the Orleans (maybe you confuse it with the Rio). Also try the toughish tournaments at the Mirage. Maybe with the WSOP they will loosen up a bit. There are some 4 table satellites at the Plaza, but I think those are terrible bets. Lots of solid players in that and beating 39 other players creates completely different strategy from either a one-table satellite or a regular tournament as only one person gets almost all the money. I would think this would be a perfect time for a room to have $50 or $100 no rebuy tournaments much like the Bike is doing. Two thirds of the people I have met in town are just dreaming of playing in a WSOP event, but they only will do it if they win a satellite. A smaller event would get all these dreamers and make for a fairly live field.
Another note, is it my imagination or is the crowd way down from last year? I went over to the Shoe today for the first time since the events began and it seemed relatively empty. Add to that under 500 entries for a tournament that had over 600 last year and I began to wonder. Some say the longer length this year has something to do with it, but I think maybe it will be a decrease overall from last year. Certainly have to think having Jack's tournament just before it could hurt business as those from the East might have done that instead.
You are right Bill it's the Orleans and the Saraha is a private tournament set up by RGP posters.
I think the events are more expensive this year - there are less Seems like some of the 1500 events are now 2000 and some of the 2000 went to 3000. The Miss. tourney put on by Jack and the Market going down the toilet is also gonna effect the turn out all those margin calls in the last couple of weeks has to hurt a lot of people.
Last year they cut the schedule down and this year they returned a few events. I don't think the fees have really changed, the first event has been a 2 dime limit tournament as long as I can remember. They took out some 1,500 tournaments, but they were reinstated this year. I highly doubt the market drop affects the turnout at this by much. Most of the people that play in this one are serious players that have a bankroll or rather rich people to which a couple of dimes means little.
I went to Jack Binions WPO in Tunica. The tournament was set up like the Carnivale of Poker. I thought that the crowd in Tunica was much tougher than COP. My point is I don't think this tournament has any effect on the WSOP. It was just the regular professionals that show up at all of them.
Twelve....there are 12 seconds in a year...January 2nd...February 2nd...March 2nd...April 2nd...
nt
Who plays? What stakes? What games? Good idea/bad idea?
Also, summer poker? Who's in town and when? Exams don't end until the 25th for me, but I'm ready when you are. How fast was that first year??!!
lata, Joe
Haha - you didn't send any of us E-mail, but trusted that you could find us on the 2+2 Forum - that's great.
I don't know how much other people want to say, but I play on Paradise - mostly 2-4 Hi-Lo Stud with some 2-4 Hold'em thrown in there...
I've swung through all the games and limits up to 6-12. Currently I am in the black - but that definitely was not the case last month...
So, since I am now making money, I would have to say that I do think Paradise is a decent thing to try out - I spend more time on poker than I do on schoolwork...maybe that's a bad thing, but we'll see.
As far as summer stuff - I'm all the way out here in California...I'm always out of the loop.
Nice to hear from you Joe,
~DjTj
Joe,
Who are you? A mysterious member of this motley crew of Young Turks, newly arrived on the scene? Why have you not been meeting your posting quota here? Mr. Zee is not going to like that. I'll do what I can to help, but when Mr. Zee gets mad... Well, actually he's not as dangerous as Paul youknowwho.
There seems to be a hole in the lore surrounding the young turks that needs fillin'. A good way to think about the philosophically complex idea of the young turks club is to compare it to the UN Security Council.
Much like the UN, there are several permament members and several rotating members. But, unlike the the security council there are two tiers of permamement membership. The so-called "voting bloc" included scott, myself, and whoever's house the game was at. This bloc was important for determining game structure, pizza delivery time, pizza delivery type, "no-talking" ordinances, and "you are awesome" ordinances. Membership in the voting bloc must not be confused with poker prowess. Although Scott was in, so was I, and Niels (a far better player than I, actually most everyone was better than I) wasn't in.
Beneath the voting bloc was the permanent membership. Some of these guys ended up staying interested in poker, others didn't. The original permanent "Young-Turks" group was Niels, Scott, Craig, Ted (DjTj), Mark (Maniac Mark), myself, and Krister.
Rotating membership was often difficult. As legendary a group as we are now, originally no one wanted to fill our vacancies. As time went on, some non-permanent members began to be regulars. Joe Lott, Dan S. (he posted once as Keyser Soze), and Gabe.
Raymond played for a while, but the voting bloc had to bar him after he acted like a gigantic idiot three nights straight.
I hope this sets the historical record straight.
I'm going to be home from June 6 - August 11th. I'd be happy to play, but I know Craig has lost interest in poker (I hear he has started to be interested in girls now). One of Scott's fraternity friends will be in DC, and he said he wanted to play.
alex
Jimbo is another clasic example of the Young-Young sociological paradigm. Sorry jimbo.
Actually, Jimbo is in line for the next permanent seat if only he would recant his foolish preference for certain Scorcese movies over certain other Scorcese movies.
a.
x
It is true that I was not in the voting bloc. It is also true that the only people who listened to the voting bloc were Alex and Scott.
Really, Niels? Are you sooooo sure? Think back over who actually secured non-flat bacon pizza at most of the games. We both loved it, but who actually brought home the bacon. I'll give you a hint...it was me! Without my anti-flat truck pizza lobby you'd have never had the neccessary political power.
a.
P.S. I thought your future roommate was a nice guy.
Except that I was pro-flat truck pizza, and I seem to remember eating it a fair portion of the time.
My roommate thought you guys were cool, too, although he commented, "All they seem to do is make fun of Scott." He also mentioned that Mark was late picking him up because he had to clean Scott's puke out of his closet.
That said, he's probably going to be going abroad next year so I might end up living with Julia.
the only reason you got the flat pizza was becuase i liked it. alex and i made all the decisions. and you would recognize that if you would stop decieving yourself.
i just want everyone to remember this day i was the butt of all the jokes the next time i am making fun of someone. i graciously laughed at myself. the next time i call shekar a slut (which she is) or mark ugly (which he is) i dont want to hear any back talk. you hear me!!
by the way, i am a zete. zeta psi rules!
scott
All right knifey, here's the truth. Yes, we did get flat pizza a lot, but that was because he who paid for the pizza had total say, and we played most often a Scott's house. How often did we get flat pizza at my house? At the casa de Lundquist the voting bloc had about as much authority as Yemen does in the UN, to continue Alex's analogy. And Alex, as for the non-flat Bacon pizza, Craig, joe, you, and I ate it. You would have had no bacon Pizza if you were the only one eating it. And what decisions did you guys make? You two had no real authority (see Yemen), although that will probably change this summer now that you have a knife and have already almost stabbed Niels twice.
Also, as for my being ugly, that's fine. But how many fat chicks have I slept with this year? Fat chicks Scott slept with: 1 Fat chicks Mark slept with: 0. I don't think anyone who has a Gigantor fetish should be in any position to vote. Before you know it, we'll all have to sleep with fat chicks before poker games. And finally, you didn't laugh off the jokes when we made fun of you, you were too busy trying not to throw up again, like you did in my closet, from being "hungry" (like anyone throws up after a night of drinking from being hungry). I will concede though that Alex owes us a bottle of scotch for his idiocy that night.
That's it, congratulations on the frat and enjoy the cocaine
Mark
except about the scotch. that was alex.
you memory must be failing in your old age. or maybe there is something in the water in the city of male rape.
we did not play most often at my house. everyone hated to go to my house. we played most often at your house, then niels's, then perhaps mine. we played only once at krister's house because he is a scoundrel.
the voting block, as already explained by alex, was alex, i, and the host. so at your house you decided all issues that alex and i disagreed on. the meal was one of those issues. but when we both wanted a certain game or a certain structure or a certain joe not to speak, it didn't matter whose house. we had oour way.
also, i have never almost stabbed neils. he was almost killed twice. once when alex threw him at me, while i was playing with my knife. and again when alex tried to run him off the road. incidentally, one of my frat brothers was playing with my knife at a party once and accidentally threw it a some chick. it didn't even land blade down and she was all screaming and freaking out. chicks!! what are you gonig to do?
furthermore, while the ugliest girl i have slept with is uglier than the ugliest girl you have slept with, the hottest girl i have slept with is hotter than the hottest girl you have slept with. and i bet my oldest is older than your oldest. and my youngest is younger than your youngest. i bet my tallest is taller than your tallest. etc. so you can throw around the fat chick jokes all you want. it didn't kill me.
as for the puking. i was hungry and i was not nauseous after i ate. when i drink heavily i puke that night. i did not puke the night before. look, of all things in the world about which i know more than you, drinking and puking has got to be near the top of the list. if we were playing jeapordy, would you be happy if that was one of the categories? i didn't think so.
i did not join for the cocaine. it's ok, but not great. i am not impressed. so far my favorite drug is alcohol by far.
scott
Sorry about not meeting my posing quotas John, I'll try harder in the future. I'm just so lazy. It's much easier to lurk than all this typing. Additionally, my wit is slower than most, and as a result, only about 1% of my jokes are funny. Then, I talk to much, and that's not fun. I believe that I was the first person to have a semi-permanent "no talking rule" imposed upon by that devious 'voting block'. Something about using smiley faces in general conversation. Frown. Regardless.
GO KNICKS!
lata, Joe
Had a very unusual situation come up last night in a 4-8 Omaha/8 game. Player on my right is an older fellow, mid 70-s to 80 range. He has the well earned reputation as a boor, often flinging chips around, berating dealers, etc. He has been suspended at various times from all the rooms in town for bad behavior. He is a terrible player, but must have pension income, I suppose, because he shows up regularly, but hardly ever books a win.
Hand #1: Old Guy limp re-raises from early position with A-2-4-9.Ace might have been suited. I was out of the hand, and the guy was holding his cards almost at arm's length out in front of him. You couldn't help but see his hand. Anyway, flop comes down 8-3-2. He check-calls the flop and turn in multi-way action, and then at the river when faced with another bet, he folded!!!
I suppose the natural reaction would be to fall out my chair, but I recalled that about six months ago this same guy was sitting next to a buddy at a different local casino in a 4-8 Omaha/8 game, and my pal saw him do exactly the same thing 3 or 4 times in one session. The guy obviously has no idea what he's doing in on Omaha game. My pal finally couldn't stand it any longer, and stopped the game, told the table what he had been observing, and the table pleaded with the guy to leave the game and go play HE. He did.
Hand #2: Player again limp re-raised from early position into 5 players with Ac-3c-4h-5s. Flop comes down 8-3-2. Talk about deja vu. Once again, he check-calls the flop with 3 other players in. Turn card is a 6, giving him nut-nut, and also putting the nut club flush on the board. A true wet dream hand. He check calls again! I'm thinking, this can't be happening. River was on off-suit paint, the guy checks the river, and when it goes bet, call, he looks and looks at the hand and folds it!!!
The player on his right had also seen the hand, and neither of us could believe what we were seeing. I asked him what was going on--- did he have any idea on how to play, or what? I wasn't rude, or berate him, but what do you do? I mean, I suppose it's his business if he wants to burn up his money, but is there some point where the table or the house should step in? We have all mis-read our hands on occasion, but this is obviously a repeated pattern with a senile senior.
Any thoughts on this?
P.S. When I left the game after 4 hours down $150, he had over $400 in front of him, and was as bitchy and cantankerous as ever. Go figure.
Dunc,
Besides borrowing large amounts of cash that you wouldn't have to pay back!!! Kidding.
If something is bothering you I find the best solution is to take some action. I would email the poker director and explain the situation to them and how you feel about it. This way at least you've done something and can put it aside. They may be aware of the situation and have had a number of email's concerning this particular player. The family may have been notified already and he may insist on playing. Rather than have him sit around all day whining about not playing they would rather he be less than miserable at the casino.
Good Luck Paul
Built up 2 pots and then folded winners? I'm sorry, what exactly are you complaining about?? And where and when does he play?! One can always bring headphones to drown out the old fish, but finding a mark like this is a rare opportunity.
Shooter, I don't mean any disrespect, but do you aim for little old ladies in crosswalks just because they're slower than kids on rollerblades?
I said in my post that if the guy wanted to burn up his money, that's his business, but this isn't the same thing as being in a game with a bunch of 'shooters'(no pun intended) raising it up with 52o just for kicks. This is an old man clearly in over his head in a low limit game. Whether or not he can afford the money is not my concern. I am always assumed that when someone sits down at the table, the money is up for grabs, but this situation is somewhat out of the ordinary.
Check out skp's response below for a little more humanitarian posture. I guess if I am uncomfortable playing with this guy, I can just get up and walk away, but I thought I would post the situation to get some views as to whether casino management should be involved as well.
"Shooter, I don't mean any disrespect, but do you aim for little old ladies in crosswalks just because they're slower than kids on rollerblades?"
None taken, my friend. You gave me a hell of a laugh with this. However, I'm not out to run over anyone in a mortal sense, but I AM out to take people's money at the poker table, and I don't care who it is. When a person sits down at a poker table, they're signing an unwritten agreement that their money could wind up in someone else's pocket. That's the chance they're taking, and whether they're prepared or not is not our concern. Let's make an extreme hypothetical situation: Would you rather try to book a winning session against your senile old friend or Doyle Brunson? I thought so.
Who was it who said something like "I'd check raise my own grandmother if I knew I was holding a winning hand"?
After I'd warn him a time or two I will make sure to always sit next to him in the future.
Honestly...if I felt that I had enough of a rapport with the guy, I would take him aside and try and explain to him that he is throwing away the nuts and that he probably doesn't understand the low part of the hi/lo. I would try and explain the basics to him. Of course, if he tells me to "take a hike, Sonny", I would and that would be that.
I like to win just as much as the next guy but beating up on senile seniors is not my idea of positive EV. Some things in life are more important than one's poker bankroll.
Post deleted at author's request.
The biggest thing I learned from the book is that David seems to play in a tight/passive game, judging from all the examples in which only 2 small bets are put into the pot preflop.
:)
- Andrew
Does anyone else find it humorous that people will buy things on sale, clip coupons to get 29 cents off a can of tuna fish, complain about increasing gas prices, but also call 4 bets cold with 22 or 8-6 suited?
Dan
I have a simple explanation for this weird behavior. Here it is: When they are buying things on sale, clip coupons, and complain about increasing gas prices, they are not on tilt. But when they are calling 4 bets cold with 22 or 86 suited, they are on tilt. It's a Hyde and Jeckyl kinda thing.
no, it's not on tilt. It's much much simpler than that. They don't understand that chips equal real money. Casinos get it. That's why they have chips in the first place. "My god!" they cry. "I'm not paying $3.99 for a lousy cheeseburger! ...Oh, it's $12 to me? Call."
And why shouldn't they? Cheeseburgers don't ever give them more cheeseburgers, do they? But that sweet sweet pot can be all theirs at the low price of just four small bets. After all, any two cards can win, right?
no, that's not the real point either. the real point is that people are willing to pay huge amounts of money for entertainment.
market prices for, say, movies are ridiculous. 10 bucks here in nyc. not to mention movie snacks, which i cannot believe anyone buys. if you were at home reading or watching tv would you need popcorn and a huge cola? if not, then why do you need it at the movies? save yourself $15.
and people pay ticketmaster's surcharges. and top notch video games cost a ton of money. hell, i remember back when my nintendo (not super nintendo) cost $150. people are freer with discretionary money than with other funds. food and gasoline prices, these are costs of living and people look very seriously toward that.
scott
The funny thing about your post is that it fully illustrates that people have a great deal of difficulty differentiating between value and cost.
Does anyone else find it humorous that people will buy things on sale, clip coupons to get 29 cents off a can of tuna fish,
Almost all of these actions above result in the consumer getting less value for their money than they could. People have trouble recognizing the low value they are getting.
Cost less != best value.
complain about increasing gas prices,
Since we pretty much have some of the lowest gas prices in the world (not to mention cheap roads to boot), this illustrates that people don't understand when they are getting value either.
Cost more != worst value.
but also call 4 bets cold with 22 or 8-6 suited?
Considering how they've shown how little they understand about value vs. cost, why should this behaviour be surprising in any way?
- Andrew
The funny thing about your post is that it fully illustrates that people have a great deal of difficulty differentiating between value and cost.
Does anyone else find it humorous that people will buy things on sale, clip coupons to get 29 cents off a can of tuna fish,
Almost all of these actions above result in the consumer getting less value for their money than they could. People have trouble recognizing the low value they are getting.
Cost less != best value.
complain about increasing gas prices,
Since we pretty much have some of the lowest gas prices in the world (not to mention cheap roads to boot), this illustrates that people don't understand when they are getting value either.
Cost more != worst value.
but also call 4 bets cold with 22 or 8-6 suited?
Considering how they've shown how little they understand about value vs. cost, why should this behaviour be surprising in any way?
- Andrew
In my regular game:
Guy is standing on the rail watching a $100-200 game at Foxwoods, and he's standing behind a guy he knows, not well, but is conversational with. The player's got about 3 full racks of black chips on the table ($30,000). The flop comes and the player says to the dealer "Is that the King of Clubs or Spades? I can't see it". The onlooker says to the player "why don't you get laser eye surgery? It worked wonders for me, and it's only a couple thousand for each eye!". The player turns and deadpan says "I can't afford that!!".
I have to admit that I don't understand most poker players either. I have heard some of the funniest things said by low-limit players.
COMMENT #1:
Player wins a monster pot with 42o.
Me: Nice pot sir. I noticed you called 4 bets cold before the flop with 42o, you must have had a feeling. (Yah, feeling like donating my money).
Player: No, it's a smart strategy. All of the raisers have big cards, so I actually have a better chance than them to hit my hand. They have all the big cards shared amongst themselves, so they're not likely to improve. (Yah, but you don't just have to hit your hand, you have to HIT your hand!)
Me: (with a straight face) Hey, that makes perfect sense. I guess there's more to this game than I thought.
COMMENT #2:
Guy turns over AKs on the river for the nut flush. As he rakes in the pot:
Me: Hey, nice hand, I love that hand when its suited.
Player: No, it's better if it's not suited because then you have the chance to make two different flushes. AKs can only make one flush while AKo is hitting half the deck. And since both cards are big, your flush will probably be the nuts.(He wasn't kidding)
Me: Hey, that makes perfect sense. You must be a professional or something. Have you ever been to Vegas? (I'm sure a few guys at the 2+2 forum will even pay your airfare).
COMMENT #3:
Guy drags the pot with T5o under the gun. Board is 9-8-6-2-7.
Guy: I love this hand, it's my road hand.
Me: Why is that, did you win a huge pot with it once?
Guy: I've won dozens of big pots with it. T5o is the only hand that can make any straight. Every straight in poker has a T or 5 in it, so I am hitting the most possibilities.
Me: (with a straight face) Hey, that makes perfect sense. And if you play T5o, you are also hitting half the deck to make a flush too. You have such a big draw you should be capping it before the flop.
Guy: I don't like raising with hands like that because if I hit my hand, people will not put me on T5.
Me: Yah. (But if you raise, I can GUARANTEE that they won't put you on T5). You are a really good poker player, you must be a 2+2 author.
Guy: What is 2+2?
Me: Four.
So the moral of this story is that T5o should be a Group 1 hand.
Or the moral might be that you can fry your brain if you try to analyze LL players.
God I`m still pissing myself from laughing so hard.You make it seem so unreal...BUT its true theres a million numbnuts out there waiting to be had. thanks for the great entertaining moment ..it was a treasure of laughter. P>S< got anymore of these stories
jg
Some webmasters of various persuasions, who are also hosts/moderators, have the habit of posting a message and saying in there that they're "too busy" for a full response or "too busy" to respond at all so they leave the responding "to the other posters" or "too busy at the moment" so please-don't-ask-anything-more-about-what-you're-asking-about. I would find this attitude amusing if it wasn't a bit irritating, so to speak. I mean it's as if, when we hit his website, the guy is doing us a favor, you know!
I won't name names but I mean what the fuck?! If you, the host, are so busy with "something else" and apparently "more important" things, turn the whole fucking website down and go home, jack.
Excellent WhINE!!!!!!!
Burgandy
I'm sorry, but I'm too busy to respond right now. I'll let others elaborate.
Did you see that?! anyone?
Cyrus,
Mason is too busy counting book sales, David's chasing women, and Ray is wrestling with big foot. If you want some real answers, you'll have to cough up some cash.
"Ray is wrestling with big foot."
How did you know this?
I think that everyone that knows Ray has seen him trying to get that "big foot" out of his ... at one time or another.
vince.
nm
join the clique.
everyone is always whining about no one important answering their questions. well, you just got to work your way into the clique. the cream always rises. keep posting.
here is what i did to get noticed when i first came aboard last fall. i tried to be the first one on the scene and then i tried to offer very complete analysis. try to write particularly insightful stuff, you know. also, look at the big super discussed questions and if you can't be first, say something no one else has thought of.
after you do this for a little while the people you want to read your posts will start reading your posts. and sometimes even answering. but you may get email from stalkers like, say ... john feeney ... and you might recieve some harsh treatment from some people who prefer to remain anonymous.
you have of course seen the recent brilliance of "tired of scott's bs", but there was some guy with a fetish for david's mouth a while ago that also took some shots at me. he had the strangest writing style.
being in the clique is great. we have little parties with great food. and there are whispers round the campfire about free books! but i am not holding my breath.
it's hard to make it, but it is well worth the effort. and once you make it you can slack off and only post once in a while. but you have to keep coming with occasional insights, though.
that's my advice. get into the cool crowd. the first step is to post your email address. no one likes a facade. posting under your real name helps.
scott
There is one other thing that you can do. Put a post upplaining how it is possible to score above 800 on an SAT. That should get David's attention.
On a related note, I once got a -40 on a test in college. I missed every question and made up 8 more and missed all of those. The professor told me that it was 5 points off for each question I missed.
And someone said you weren't human. Way to go Mason!
vince.
wow. that's amazing. you made up 8 more you couldn't do? that is so cool.
scott
I'm watching you scott.
Anyway, there's some good advice there. The part about sayng something in a big thread that no one else has thought of is a very powerful technique. I'm aware of one poster who achieved near legendary status (no, not that poster) by starting most of his posts with, "I'm surprised no one has mentioned..." I don't know if it helped that his posts were indeed often very insightful, but that little phrase sure didn't hurt. I'm surprised you let that one out of the bag, scott.
The harsh treatment does come with the territory. But you may take heart that often the various anonymous posters who attack you are just different aliases used by the same person. In fact, in the last 24 hours one of my greatest "admirers" has posted here under each of his last two aliases. (hint: SH, RS He ignored my "outing" him a couple of days ago.) I think he's losing all sense of his own identity.
The food at the parties is good, but then those young turks who have worked their way into, or partially into the clique start talking about flat pizza. And I don't know that the parties should start including flat pizza - whatever it is.
Yes, including an email address helps a lot (though one fraudulent poster now has a bogus name with a legitimate looking email address. Huh.). There is only one poster who is really "allowed" not to post his email address, but that's because email can't yet make it all the way into those back-woods areas. A few others are tolerated - Daniel Patton because he's mentioned doing time in the joint. Best not to take issue with him.
Forget about the free books. You're going to have to buy them just like everyone else. Just stick to playing ring games like Mason. Forget about tournaments, unless you have the bankroll and can deal with the variance. Anyway, last time I saw Mason, he had his HPFAP 21st C book with him. He was holding on to it very tightly. I think he was going to sell it to Vince, but he didn't show up. You can bet that Vince was going to have to pay for it.
id considering giving you a post back but since i can never remember how to spell mystic how wouuld i get cyrus right. get a decent name and you may get some answers.
Thanks for the responses, everyone.
1. I wasn't venting specifically against the hosts of 2+2, although I've seen DS respond like a man with his pants on fire many times. But no, I just expressed a common gripe against busybodies...
2. Thanks for the suggestions on how to attract attention! Eye-openers all. In any case, I am & have been getting all the attention that I like in my posts, here and elsewhere (the webmaster should note however that others appear not to!). And getting an e-mail address is not a problem; surprised to find it made a difference with you, guys. (I can get up 50 e-mail address in 1 hour.)
3. Now about anonymity: I come from a different cabal: I'm primarily a Blackjack player, so anonymity is part of the territory. I will not do away with it here. However, I could start posting under a 'real looking' pseudonym, like for example Theodore Klutzinsky or somethin', with a real-lookin' e-mail address to boot (nightmail or any such, natch). That would satisfy perhaps Ray Zee's need for the human touch or Mason Malmuth's posting specifications.
---Anyway, be good y'all and see you at the skinners'.
Foxwoods.
10 -20 Holdem with 1/2 kill.
Stuck about $350. Climbed back from $900 stuck. Big loss for a 10-20 game. Played a few too many hands as usual. The game was fair. A couple of players were easy reads. One very aggressive player and some rocks. Two or three mediocre players and me. Well I always let others rate me. I learned a long time ago not to write my own resume. I had been playing all night. Maybe 8 - 9 hours. I continued playing even though tired because I didn't want to go home stuck. I am very prone to tilt after I get stuck a lot in a game so I closely monitored my starting hands and calling frequency. I was determined not to go on tilt. At one point I was within $100 of being even and seriously considered leaving. I had played for quite a while and was tired but the game was good at that point so I stayed. Soon I was stuck $350 again and not too happy. I was looking to get even and wanted a big hand when the following situation developed. 15-30 level after the kill. I was in the small blind with 9,9. 4 limpers including the button. I raised. BB and limpers all call. Flop comes 9h,6d,3d. I checked and it was checked around. Turn brought the 5h. Board is now 9h,6d,3d,5h. BB bets, button raises and I reraise. The BB thinks for a long time and folds. The button thinks for a while and calls. I see the straight on the board and begin to pray. Pair the board! Pair the board! Well the river brings a 3 of clubs! Yes! I bet. The button raises and without thinking I reraise. The button then reraises and now it sinks in. Now I realize that I'm a goner. Without thinking much about it an hoping beyond hope that he had 5's or 6's I called. He of course had pocket three's.
I only posted this here as a reminder that in the heat of battle anything can happen and one must be prpared for every eventuality. This hand did not send me on tilt. I played a while longer and won back what I had lost on the hand and ended up about $350. But I felt pretty good about my playing and I had a story to tell so I was happy.
Vince.
BTW - Be careful of what you ask for you just might get it!
A few weeks ago I ran into quads twice within an hour. The second time I also had a full house. I kinda felt foolish, especially because the entire table remembered it was me who smacked face first into quads the first time. I laughed it off. Then I ran over a few of them on their way back to their cars. It's a good thing I don't tilt at the table.
Dan
I played in that 10-20 game a few weeks ago during the tournaments...and hated it. The "kill" literally does kill the action in this game. Major adjustments must be made.
Primarily, you must play MUCH tighter than you'd play in a regular game. This is because your implied odds go down due to the prospect of having to kill the next hand. This means that "splashing around" with substandard holdings is wrong. Also, drawing hands go down in value. This is especially true during the 15-30 hands because it's much more likely that the pot will get killed again.
Also, you need a much stronger hand to raise during kill hands not only because of the above reasons but also because you're much less likely to get away with stealing.
The bigger problem is that these necessary adjustments are obvious to the other players and they do in fact compensate their play accordingly.
As an aside, all the stud and holdem games in Foxwoods were extremely tough during my twelve days there. I've gambled all over the country and Foxwoods is by far and away the worst place to play poker. It's one thing for the tables to be tough every now and then, but it's 24/7 at Foxwoods with no weak players whatsoever.
Vince, your big and unforgiveable mistake this hand was allowing yourself to get beat by quads. Don't you do it again!
Re: the kill (Take The Points)--it is not that the players play this properly at Foxwoods or tighten up because of it--it is more a function of the table you are at, and at FW, the game is often somewhat tight. The game would have been at least as tight without the kill --I play there regularly.
Re: The Kill: While it is often correct to play tighter, certain situations arise where it is not. In addition, because of the nature of the FW kill (pot over 145 kills pot, killer acts in turn), there are other variables that influence strategy and tactics. The interesting thing is that the kill actually seems to loosen up the game--paradoxically perhaps, but that is what seems to happen. If you took the same crew without the kill I bet you would have even less action!
As far as the games being tight overall at FW, you can usually find loose tables if you are willing to play all games and not just one limit. I have noticed that typically at tournament time the mid-limit games all seem to tighten up--too many serious players from the tournament and most of them play mid-limit. I hate tournament time at FW for this reason. Give me the summer live games any day--they are often quite good. Nearby Mystic and Misquamicut are vacation destinations and perhaps this is part of the reason the summer games seem best.
I honestly cannot believe the kill stimulates action at the table. There were many hands I folded before the flop I would have otherwise played. I suspect others played the same way. All the medium limit stud games were also extremely tough. I don't mind a tight hold'em game - without the kill - but a tight 10-20 stud with a four dollar rake is not my cup of tea.
I don't doubt you adjusted to the kill this way, and I am not saying you were incorrect in doing so--only that most of the regulars do not adjust in the same way. You were just looking at a tight crew, period, as you saw also in the stud games. While tightening up is mostly correct when playing a kill game, there are specific scenarios where the opposite, or even more aggressive action as well, may be called for. My observation of the kill loosening up the game comes simply from long observation of these players; I am not saying it is theoretically correct most of the time. There is a psychological element at work here. Many players get drawn into pots with marginal holdings because they have posted the kill. Multiway pots are encouraged (resulting in more beats, more frustration, more tilt amongst the players). Stealing the blinds when there is a kill up offers a greater return on investment. Just as a 15-30 game is usually looser than a 10-20 or 20-40, kill pots are also for many similar reasons. In my experience at FW over the years, tourn. time definitely has the tightest live action of the year. The rest of the year it is hit or miss to catch a really good game or a tight game, with summer generally best. If you want a rip-roaring hold'em game, try the Mohegan Sun 20-40: it often is. Actually I have found tourn. time in Vegas to have worse mid-limit games as well--I can't understand people who say they like tourn. side action (exception: high limit of course). I personally hate tourn. time because it is noisy and hectic and the games are full of strange faces who generally play pretty well.
I have to disagree with some of the points made by M and Take.
First, there are not 100% good players at FW, there are just many fewer loose types among the weak players. We tend to have quite a few players who are tight and decent, and quite a few players who are tight and weak, and very few who are loose. BTW, this opinion is limited to the 10-20 HE game at FW, since I've only very occasionally played the 3-6 or 5-10. I've also not played enough stud to have a good handle on the "typical" lineup there, but it sure doesn't seem that loose to me.
Also, I think that all of the games are MUCH better during tourney time, by at least a factor of 2 (i.e., my EV/hour goes up at least double during tourney time). While it may be that the HE games 5-10 and below tighten up, the games 10-20 get much looser and better. Also, there was 20-40, 30-60, and 50-100 going, and going well. These games were generally good, and they almost never get spread when it's NOT tourney time.
As was mentioned, there is regularly a rammin-jammin 20-40 HE game at MS. For long term profit, that is your best HE bet in CT. Any other game is too small and too tight to make much on an hourly basis.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg, Of course FW has a broad mix of players. My point was that the players, not the kill, determines the tightness of the table at FW.
Having lived and played here most of the last 8 years, I am convinced that the 10-20 and 15-30 games both tighten up and toughen up during tourney time. I'm glad you've had such good results. It may be due partly to another phenomenon, though, that our impressions differ:--your tables may have been the looser ones! Sort of like when my friend says, "I never see that guy win! Why does he keep coming back?" and I say " I never see him lose!" Different times, different tables. Anyway, I kept my eyes open and never saw anyone with fossils on the table--although I did cut my schedule WAY back because, as I said, I hate tourney time. I don't go in every day anymore, but I will keep my eyes open for you.
Greg,
I play 5-10HE exclusively at FX, and I find the kill tends to loosen up the games at particular times. I rarely play during the week (I work too much), but I find that the weekend nights, especially after 10:00, bring out the gamblers and the younger hotshots who, for the most part, play too loosely and foolishly agressively. They see the kill hands as a chance to make real money and often plunge in with almost anything. Variance can be high with these insane players, but the expectation is good.
I know it's an aberration, but my hourly rate for April was over 4BB per hour for about 70 hours of play.
John
John,
I find the converse to be true at the 5-10 at FW. Most times people tightened unexplicably. Many pots are short handed and it is not uncommon for the action to end before the flop (as you very well must remember on at least one occasion with AA). I agree with you that the kill tends to excite some more aggressive characters to reckless action and this is partially the reason I am sometimes guilty of defending my kill with trash. Last time I played was in February. Have things gotten so much wilder lately at FW? I guess the warm weather does loosen up things.
Azad
"defending my kill with trash. "
I dare say, that is the only way to play!
Vince.
Azad,
Of course, it depends upon the players. I'm not sure which hand you're refering to--I'm not even sure who you are, so introduce yourself next time--but with certain regular players many hands do end preflop. Many players will, in earlier position, invariably raise their kill and often with trash. (I'm not one of those, usually.) But, at certain times, in particular, Friday night and Sunday late evening, the 5-10 games seem filled with very loose and very poor players, along with super aggressive younger players who try to run over the table.
Last week on one kill hand, I'm in the SB with pocket AA. Five callers to me and I raise. UTG reraises, one fold, one call, another fold, and I reraise to forty and have two callers. Flop is 673 with two hearts and one diamond. The turn and river produce the 89d. I bet the whole way and both callers fold on the final bet. Earlier, the reraiser in this hand called my raise with JJ on the button in a kill hand with 42o, stayed to the river, and split the pot with another caller who had A4o with this board: 2 5 6 8 7 in that order.
I think this might qualify for fairly loose play.
Regards,
John
I'm fairly sure Alex B. must be behind THIS
The mechanical cow is the product of the American right. Now, I don't want to offend local reactionary nuts Rounder and Michael7, but it has been a cornerstone of the RNP to develop mechanical animals for some time now. They may say the reason they are developing such animals is for military purposes. But my involvment in the project has led me to believe that they are for a far different purpose.
That purpose is.......having sex. How are congressional republicans supposed to have interesting sex lives now. After all, our elected leaders should be continent, loyal, and above all sexually frustrated.
When I found out, I debated whether to bring up the subject on the forum with our dear sexually-frustrated friends. You know, the ones who are always grumpy. But, I thought it would presumptive of me to offer the services of mechanical animals still in development. Now that they are ready for release, all loyal republicans should be able to be serviced soon.
a.
one of the problems they had to overcome during the development of the holstein cow was the coloring. the two main colors are ofcourse black and white. the problem was it is never clear whether it is a white cow with large black spots or a black cow with large white spots.
Unfortunately Alex's humble nature keeps him from emphasizing the vital role he played in producing these machines. He was practically the entire Research and Development team. He would take the subject (cow, pig, goat)into a locked room from which all that could be heard was AlexB's screams, obviously Aristotlean screams of discovery. Five days and 20 pounds later he'd come out with a sly smile and say "The republicans are going to love this". If only we had more true American heroes like AlexB
Mark always wanted fish for dinner. I wonder why....hmmm
And don't you guys remember those comments like
"Man, dead fish are great."
"Man I wish I could be in the aquarium right now."
"Man I wish I could be having sex....with a FISH!"
those comments got me thinking.
maybe Mark likes fish....you know likes likes fish?
but what really put it over the top was
"My name is mark L., i'm ugly, and stupid, and have a big mouth and a big butt and I like dead fish sexually, they are so sexy that I think we should have sex."
a.
Reactionary nut? - I have never mentioned my membership in the Indiana malita here - :-)
Where do you get that nonsense.
That is funny!!!!!!!!!!!
Bro Your Sicker Than I Thought Keep It Up PhD!!!
nphd
I at Wurld Series of Poker and Ray Zee no here. What a big dummmy he is. All sorts of bums throwing away big buckes. Me thinks he too big a shot in mountains to come into valley andplay with men. I see game yestearday that Ray Zee kill with left elbow . Ray Zee smart about won thing thoughe. Smoke enugh here to kill an elefant. Hole place look like Ray Zee outhouse. Me wish I had Ray Zee bankrole to play with then I kill game for moocho robert denarrow. 1-5 games good thoughe for player like me with no brain and poor hand two eye chordination. I miss Ray Zee. Ray? Can I come to Mountanna and see you? I bring my own TP.
Ray Zee is probably off in LA killing the now devoid of experts tables.
Flights sucked.
Food sucked.
3 limit sats. Didn't win one hand.
Orleans NL HE tournament - 100 buy in - KK cracked AA cracked - on my way back down town.
More sats cracked cracked cracked.
Ring games - WON!
Roulette WON!
Target - at the Saraha - placed 10th nice people very good players and the highlight of my suckie trip.
Thanks to the guys who put on the target tourney it was great.
You must have gotten some real bad cards, Mike. How long are the levels in these satellites? Better luck next year. Dave
Dave same as last year - more fish than usual some good players a few great players. I saw more big bet calls with Ax here than I ever have except So. Cal :-)
I didn't get a real hand in all but one tournament and those got cracked - it's the game I play and it will happen. 1st major I have been to when I didn't win at least a few sats.
I will be back before it is over this year - bank on that.
Rounder,
Better luck next time. Where did you eat? I want to avoid these places when I get out there is a few weeks.
With my cards running so badly didn't matter where I are all food tasted bad. :-(
Hehehe. I'm guessing you didn't read the "How to write a trip report" post on Ken's Poker Page ....
did you find you were the most lucky betting red or betting black at roulette.
Post deleted at author's request.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
32-33-35-36
hey thats the figures for my pet sheep.
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Posted on: Sunday, 9 January 2000, at 11:16 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 8:27 a.m.
Posted by: Otis Bunch (otisBunch@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 6:00 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Friday, 7 January 2000, at 11:22 p.m.
Posted by: Kevin L
Posted on: Saturday, 8 January 2000, at 3:39 a.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 8 January 2000, at 11:30 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 8 January 2000, at 11:39 a.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Saturday, 8 January 2000, at 12:38 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 8 January 2000, at 12:55 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Saturday, 8 January 2000, at 2:23 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 8 January 2000, at 3:13 p.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 9 January 2000, at 3:35 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 8 January 2000, at 12:32 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 8 January 2000, at 7:32 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 8 January 2000, at 8:15 p.m.
Posted by: New Guy in SD (and need a game, quick!)
Posted on: Saturday, 8 January 2000, at 7:41 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 8 January 2000, at 8:09 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 2:01 a.m.
Posted by: Mieko (miekom@qualcomm.com)
Posted on: Friday, 28 January 2000, at 4:43 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 9 January 2000, at 4:03 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 9 January 2000, at 8:15 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 4:40 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 4:28 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 1:42 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 4:37 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 12:47 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 4:32 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 1:06 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 4:43 a.m.
Posted by: DjTj (tjou@caltech.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 4:41 p.m.
Posted by: Tim (tdelaney@cascadesa.org)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 2:26 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 7:07 p.m.
Posted by: james H. (hansen@its.caltech.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 5:16 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 4:53 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 5:14 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 1:29 p.m.
Posted by: Student
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 7:51 p.m.
Posted by: Izmet Fekali (izmet@siol.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 7:42 p.m.
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World since 1389!
http://izmet.desetka.si
Posted by: Student
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 2:23 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 2:53 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 3:30 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 4:09 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 8:21 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 4:16 p.m.
Posted by: Student
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 8:02 p.m.
Posted by: Student
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 8:02 p.m.
Posted by: james H. (hansen@its.caltech.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 4:48 p.m.
Posted by: DjTj (tjou@caltech.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 12:23 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 9 January 2000, at 5:07 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 9 January 2000, at 8:19 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 9 January 2000, at 10:52 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 2:05 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 3:28 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 5:36 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 6:23 p.m.
Posted by: LAMentary
Posted on: Sunday, 9 January 2000, at 5:15 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 12:27 a.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wglroup.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 3:35 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 9:15 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 9:49 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 10:17 a.m.
Posted by: Chico
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 6:46 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 8:41 p.m.
Posted by: Bill C.
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 10:48 a.m.
Posted by: Kevin L
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 2:21 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 1:52 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 3:02 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wglroup.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 10:01 p.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 10:26 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 11:13 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 11:16 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 11:19 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 11:55 a.m.
Posted by: MJChicago (m7h1j5@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 3:16 p.m.
Posted by: Bill C.
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 3:28 p.m.
Posted by: Dunc Mills (custserv@parcom.ab.ca)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 5:22 p.m.
Posted by: MJChicago (m7h1j5@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 5:27 p.m.
Posted by: Kevin L
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 2:34 a.m.
Posted by: MJChicago (m7h1j5@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 3:14 p.m.
Posted by: Bill C.
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 3:23 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (CodeSavvy@acm.org)
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 7:37 p.m.
Posted by: thinking
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 9:19 a.m.
Posted by: computer guy
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 9:41 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 6:07 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 10:21 p.m.
Posted by: trr
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 11:31 p.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 7:55 a.m.
Posted by: Dice
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 6:03 p.m.
Posted by: GTO
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 9:45 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 10:04 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 10 January 2000, at 11:53 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 7:14 a.m.
Posted by: GTO
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 11:42 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 5:23 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 11:18 a.m.
Posted by: Frank Brabec (thebrabec@msn.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 3:00 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 2:25 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 7:57 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 5:07 p.m.
Posted by: Brian Prowd
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 3:21 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 4:45 p.m.
Posted by: Tim (tdelaney@cascadesa.org)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 5:04 p.m.
Posted by: DjTj (tjou@caltech.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 4:50 p.m.
Posted by: DjTj (tjou@caltech.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 2:34 a.m.
Posted by: Brian Prowd
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 12:53 p.m.
Posted by: Niels (antiveg@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 5:36 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 6:13 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 4:49 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 5:10 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 5:13 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 2:26 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 10:17 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 10:27 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 2:02 p.m.
Posted by: Goat
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 5:44 a.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 3:30 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 6:15 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 6:15 p.m.
Posted by: Mike Blair (meblai@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 6:32 p.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 9:29 p.m.
Posted by: Gary.Carson fan
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 2:03 p.m.
Posted by: JCC (jcc772@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 5:39 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 7:21 p.m.
Posted by: JCC (jcc772@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 January 2000, at 8:59 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 9:45 a.m.
Posted by: Mike Blair (meblai@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 6:24 p.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 1:54 p.m.
Posted by: DjTj (tjou@caltech.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 4:51 a.m.
Posted by: Gary Carson (garycarson@mindspring.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 7:30 a.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 1:53 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 4:40 p.m.
Posted by: DjTj (tjou@caltech.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 8:08 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 8:50 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 8:39 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 11:10 a.m.
Posted by: Goat
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 5:38 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 12:56 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 12:32 p.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 January 2000, at 12:55 p.m.
Posted by: Kevin L
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 2:39 a.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 8:33 a.m.
ahmen
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 1:10 p.m.
Posted by: Kevin L
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 10:34 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Sprung
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 4:48 a.m.
Posted by: DjTj (tjou@caltech.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 7:29 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 4:03 a.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 1:42 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 2:20 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 2:40 p.m.
Posted by: Dunc Mills (custserv@parcom.ab.ca)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 3:11 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 8:27 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 9:02 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 10:38 p.m.
Posted by: Tim (tdelaney@cascadesa.org)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 3:43 p.m.
Posted by: Chico
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 11:30 p.m.
Posted by: Mike Blair (meblai@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 3:23 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 4:18 p.m.
Posted by: Tim (tdelaney@cascadesa.org)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 2:06 p.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 3:09 p.m.
Posted by: DjTj (tjou@caltech.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 5:40 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 6:07 p.m.
Posted by: Chico
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 7:22 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 10:50 p.m.
Posted by: Student (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 5:53 a.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 4:44 p.m.
Posted by: Student
Posted on: Monday, 17 January 2000, at 12:36 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 10:11 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 3:16 a.m.
Posted by: DjTj (tjou@caltech.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 5:14 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 3:47 a.m.
Posted by: Tim (tdelaney@cascadesa.org)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 3:39 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 7:26 p.m.
Posted by: Tim (tdelaney@cascadesa.org)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 11:58 a.m.
Posted by: Thanks
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 6:19 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Alger (algerc@idt.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 10:09 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 11:52 p.m.
Posted by: Thanks
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 1:38 a.m.
Posted by: jas
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 10:39 a.m.
Posted by: Thanks (lojishen@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 2:46 p.m.
Posted by: jas
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 3:02 p.m.
Posted by: denver guy
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 4:38 p.m.
Posted by: Denver guy number 2
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 8:58 a.m.
Posted by: Denver Guy3
Posted on: Thursday, 27 January 2000, at 8:32 a.m.
Posted by: SaraOfMinn
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 6:37 p.m.
Posted by: Niels (antiveg@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 7:35 p.m.
Posted by: rich van ollefen (rich_van_ollefen@3com.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 9:39 a.m.
Posted by: Frank Brabec (thebrabec@msn.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 2:26 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 6:58 p.m.
Posted by: Hamster
Posted on: Thursday, 13 January 2000, at 10:01 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 12:06 a.m.
Posted by: Niels (antiveg@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 12:15 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 2:11 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 3:40 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 4:40 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 6:27 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 8:02 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 5:15 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 6:15 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 3:35 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 4:16 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 3:32 a.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 1:40 p.m.
Posted by: Bill C.
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 4:19 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 10:07 p.m.
Posted by: Bill C.
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 12:25 a.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 11:23 a.m.
Posted by: Jon Kitna
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 2:45 a.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 2:56 p.m.
Posted by: Bill (blipcon@nccn.net)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 4:18 p.m.
Posted by: Big Slick
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 8:49 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 4:20 p.m.
Posted by: Stewart L.
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 4:47 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 8:29 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 8:41 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 9:50 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 11:33 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 12:34 p.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 12:38 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 1:46 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 2:41 p.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 2:49 p.m.
Posted by: andy m (apoker1@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 9:03 p.m.
Posted by: ATWOOD
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 3:44 a.m.
Posted by: Martin D
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 2:16 p.m.
Posted by: DjTj (tjou@caltech.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 6:07 a.m.
Posted by: wpw
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 3:42 p.m.
Posted by: Niels (antiveg@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 4:15 p.m.
Posted by: Frank W
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 4:51 p.m.
Posted by: Danny D
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 1:24 a.m.
Posted by: Mike Blair (meblai@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 1:37 a.m.
Posted by: Randy E
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 2:55 a.m.
Posted by: Mike Blair (meblai@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 3:32 a.m.
Posted by: Randy E
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 10:20 a.m.
Posted by: Mike Blair (meblai@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 11:08 a.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 11:34 a.m.
Posted by: Allen H
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 12:44 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 11:33 a.m.
Posted by: Mike Blair (meblai@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 12:23 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Monday, 17 January 2000, at 2:49 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 3:03 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 5:08 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 7:21 a.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 12:27 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 1:38 p.m.
Posted by: Mike Blair (meblai@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 2:05 p.m.
Posted by: Martin D
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 10:09 p.m.
Posted by: Mike Blair (meblai@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 17 January 2000, at 5:08 p.m.
Posted by: andy m (apoker1@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 2:43 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Monday, 17 January 2000, at 2:54 p.m.
Posted by: Allen H
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 6:04 p.m.
Posted by: Allen H
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 6:09 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 6:31 p.m.
Posted by: Maniac Mark (mlundqui@seas.upenn.edu)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 7:46 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 17 January 2000, at 5:49 p.m.
Posted by: Maniac Mark (mlundqui@seas.upenn.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 17 January 2000, at 6:22 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Monday, 17 January 2000, at 6:26 p.m.
Posted by: Steve Morse
Posted on: Monday, 17 January 2000, at 7:20 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 12:30 a.m.
Posted by: Steve Morse
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 5:09 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 11:17 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 2:23 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 7:54 a.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 12:33 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 7:07 p.m.
Posted by: Allen H
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 7:31 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 10:47 a.m.
Posted by: Tim (tdelaney@cascadesa.org)
Posted on: Friday, 14 January 2000, at 5:51 p.m.
Posted by: Dave Racich
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 3:20 a.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wglroup.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 9:53 p.m.
Posted by: ATWOOD
Posted on: Monday, 17 January 2000, at 10:55 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 5:38 a.m.
Posted by: Chuck (lbp8381@ksu.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 4:39 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Sprung
Posted on: Saturday, 15 January 2000, at 9:48 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 1:45 p.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Monday, 17 January 2000, at 9:13 a.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Monday, 17 January 2000, at 5:28 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Sprung
Posted on: Monday, 17 January 2000, at 8:36 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 17 January 2000, at 10:28 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 2:31 p.m.
Posted by: Dave Waters (davewaters@rocketmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 2:38 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 3:01 p.m.
Posted by: DR. STORY TELLER
Posted on: Monday, 17 January 2000, at 9:13 a.m.
Posted by: Dave Waters (davewaters@rocketmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 3:09 p.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 7:45 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wglroup.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 January 2000, at 9:52 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 17 January 2000, at 5:38 a.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 3:29 a.m.
Posted by: Chris Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Monday, 17 January 2000, at 2:13 a.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 17 January 2000, at 4:54 p.m.
Posted by: Dunc Mills (custserv@parcom.ab.ca)
Posted on: Monday, 17 January 2000, at 6:28 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 17 January 2000, at 6:38 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 5:36 a.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 5:41 a.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 12:22 p.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 1:53 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 5:41 p.m.
Posted by: Tim (tdelaney@cascadesa.org)
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 1:08 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 1:24 p.m.
Posted by: Tim (tdelaney@cascadesa.org)
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 1:47 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 1:59 p.m.
Posted by: Tim (tdelaney@cascadesa.org)
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 2:11 p.m.
Posted by: Izmet Fekali (izmet@siol.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 2:26 p.m.
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World since 1389!
http://izmet.desetka.si
Posted by: Tim (tdelaney@cascadesa.org)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 3:10 p.m.
Posted by: Izmet Fekali (izmet@siol.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 7:16 p.m.
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World since 1389!
http://izmet.desetka.si
Posted by: Jolly13
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 January 2000, at 8:29 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wglroup.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 8:36 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 8:43 a.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wglroup.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 5:22 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 12:20 a.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 12:36 a.m.
Posted by: Bill C.
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 2:14 p.m.
Posted by: Bill C.
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 2:29 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 7:33 a.m.
Posted by: Steve C.
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 1:50 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 8:07 a.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 10:18 a.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 11:04 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 12:08 p.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 1:34 p.m.
Posted by: ronzoni
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 4:35 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 9:25 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 4:37 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 5:53 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 5:58 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 9:21 p.m.
Posted by: Bill C.
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 1:59 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 12:25 a.m.
Posted by: DocMartin (Docmartin132@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 9:42 p.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 7:11 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 8:34 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 1:25 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 9:49 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 11:58 a.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 3:31 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 4:25 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 5:37 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 6:26 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 11:10 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 11:19 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 12:05 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 9:47 a.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 10:16 a.m.
Posted by: Walleye (Walleye675@Aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 11:51 a.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 12:22 p.m.
Posted by: Don Martin
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 9:04 p.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 1:39 p.m.
Posted by: George Lind
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 1:50 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 2:35 p.m.
Posted by: Barry B
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 9:21 p.m.
Posted by: Kevin R.
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 8:05 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 8:18 a.m.
Posted by: Barry B
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 8:55 a.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 2:46 p.m.
Posted by: Oscar (Bonavena@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 9:37 p.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 2:07 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 12:46 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 6:51 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 7:22 p.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabahn@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 8:16 p.m.
Posted by: dsm
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 9:11 p.m.
Posted by: ATWOOD
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 11:18 p.m.
Posted by: Bill (BillE757@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 11:59 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 12:37 a.m.
Posted by: Ratso
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 9:35 p.m.
Posted by: kevin concannon (concannon2001@YAHOO.COM)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 12:20 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 12:42 p.m.
Posted by: Tony D
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 1:01 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 2:37 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 4:50 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Rubenstein (drubenst@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 5:48 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 4:59 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 6:52 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 7:18 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 8:00 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 10:16 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 10:59 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Thursday, 20 January 2000, at 11:01 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 12:11 a.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 1:04 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 2:21 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 12:32 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 1:07 a.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 11:34 a.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 12:58 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 1:05 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 11:22 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 11:26 a.m.
Posted by: MJacks (htacom@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 10:43 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 12:28 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 11:52 a.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 1:08 p.m.
Posted by: shooter
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 2:25 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 4:54 p.m.
Posted by: Jordan V.
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 5:52 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 6:36 p.m.
Posted by: Jordan V.
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 6:10 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 9:05 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 10:27 p.m.
Posted by: Bill G. (greenwb@ufl.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 1:10 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 12:26 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Sunday, 23 January 2000, at 4:17 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 23 January 2000, at 8:24 p.m.
Posted by: taylor
Posted on: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 3:18 p.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 2:05 p.m.
Posted by: Holybull (holybull2@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 5:04 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wglroup.com)
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 8:47 p.m.
Posted by: vano (ma_hammill@msn.com)
Posted on: Friday, 21 January 2000, at 5:13 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 4:39 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 9:58 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 10:03 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 9:35 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 10:40 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 23 January 2000, at 12:29 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 23 January 2000, at 4:19 a.m.
Posted by: Scott horton
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 8:32 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 1:07 a.m.
Posted by: Bill C.
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 5:00 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 10:19 a.m.
Posted by: Niels (antiveg@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 11:09 a.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 2:07 p.m.
Posted by: Don
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 2:51 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 2:50 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 3:05 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 5:21 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 6:13 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 23 January 2000, at 3:17 a.m.
Posted by: agnan
Posted on: Thursday, 27 January 2000, at 5:51 p.m.
Posted by: dsm
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 10:40 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 10:54 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 9:45 p.m.
Posted by: ronzoni
Posted on: Sunday, 23 January 2000, at 5:54 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 23 January 2000, at 8:26 a.m.
Posted by: Richard L.
Posted on: Sunday, 23 January 2000, at 7:05 p.m.
Posted by: No Limit Dude
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 2:40 p.m.
Posted by: Debra
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 2:41 p.m.
Posted by: Louisa Kelly
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 2:45 p.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 3:27 p.m.
Posted by: Jesse Jam
Posted on: Sunday, 23 January 2000, at 4:29 p.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 23 January 2000, at 8:43 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 5:33 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 6:08 p.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 8:10 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 8:12 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 10:41 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 22 January 2000, at 11:41 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 12:36 a.m.
Posted by: Izmet Fekali (izmet@siol.net)
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 8:06 a.m.
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World since 1389!
http://izmet.desetka.si
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 10:21 a.m.
Posted by: John Tyler
Posted on: Sunday, 23 January 2000, at 12:25 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (CodeSavvy@acm.org)
Posted on: Sunday, 23 January 2000, at 7:43 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (CodeSavvy@acm.org)
Posted on: Sunday, 23 January 2000, at 9:49 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 23 January 2000, at 1:10 p.m.
Posted by: Oscar (Bonavena@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 23 January 2000, at 2:53 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wglroup.com)
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 12:50 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 7:59 a.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 23 January 2000, at 2:09 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 23 January 2000, at 3:55 p.m.
Posted by: Dunc Mills (custserv@parcom.ab.ca)
Posted on: Sunday, 23 January 2000, at 5:14 p.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 23 January 2000, at 8:41 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wglroup.com)
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 12:56 a.m.
Posted by: Tim (tdelaney@cascadesa.org)
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 2:17 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 6:13 a.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 12:10 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 12:12 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 5:25 p.m.
Posted by: LAMentary
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 6:20 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 9:46 a.m.
Posted by: shooter
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 10:32 a.m.
Posted by: Dice
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 4:00 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 6:09 p.m.
Posted by: mashie (mashie@my-deja.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 27 January 2000, at 4:30 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Thursday, 27 January 2000, at 7:32 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 29 January 2000, at 9:31 a.m.
Posted by: Telephon'
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 12:11 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 1:27 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 24 January 2000, at 12:56 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 2:37 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 2:51 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 3:20 p.m.
Posted by: psychology grad student
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 4:15 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 6:37 p.m.
Posted by: psych grad student
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 January 2000, at 1:07 a.m.
Posted by: A Bum
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 4:33 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 6:44 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 8:10 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 8:51 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 9:15 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 January 2000, at 2:36 a.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 9:22 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 9:47 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 11:25 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 11:35 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 5:58 p.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 January 2000, at 11:54 a.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 January 2000, at 8:05 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Thursday, 27 January 2000, at 5:12 a.m.
Posted by: Walleye (Walleye675@Aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 4:59 p.m.
Posted by: MJChicago (m7h1j5@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 5:34 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 9:50 p.m.
Posted by: goog (elgoogo@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 January 2000, at 6:32 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 January 2000, at 7:23 p.m.
Posted by: Bill C.
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 January 2000, at 11:46 p.m.
Posted by: Tim (tdelaney@cascadesa.org)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 6:27 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 8:31 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 9:05 p.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 January 2000, at 9:20 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 January 2000, at 1:23 a.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 January 2000, at 6:15 a.m.
Posted by: Pete B
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 January 2000, at 1:29 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 January 2000, at 2:29 a.m.
Posted by: goog (elgoogo@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 January 2000, at 6:21 p.m.
Posted by: james H. (hansen@its.caltech.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 January 2000, at 8:52 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 27 January 2000, at 1:49 a.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 January 2000, at 10:02 p.m.
Posted by: Chico
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 January 2000, at 2:16 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 January 2000, at 8:13 a.m.
Posted by: goog (elgoogo@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 January 2000, at 6:37 p.m.
Posted by: Niels (antiveg@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 January 2000, at 11:02 p.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 27 January 2000, at 11:21 a.m.
Posted by: james H. (hansen@its.caltech.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 January 2000, at 9:07 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Thursday, 27 January 2000, at 5:14 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 27 January 2000, at 10:09 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 27 January 2000, at 3:30 p.m.
Posted by: Ron H
Posted on: Thursday, 27 January 2000, at 7:51 a.m.
Posted by: John Wren
Posted on: Thursday, 27 January 2000, at 8:28 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 27 January 2000, at 1:17 p.m.
Posted by: Ron H
Posted on: Thursday, 27 January 2000, at 5:11 p.m.
Posted by: Pete B
Posted on: Thursday, 27 January 2000, at 7:22 p.m.
Posted by: Martin D
Posted on: Friday, 28 January 2000, at 6:18 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 28 January 2000, at 10:24 a.m.
Posted by: Lady Gambler
Posted on: Friday, 28 January 2000, at 5:04 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 28 January 2000, at 5:56 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Friday, 28 January 2000, at 1:54 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 28 January 2000, at 4:32 p.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Thursday, 27 January 2000, at 5:48 p.m.
Posted by: Martin D
Posted on: Thursday, 27 January 2000, at 7:02 p.m.
Posted by: Tim (tdelaney@cascadesa.org)
Posted on: Thursday, 27 January 2000, at 5:40 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 28 January 2000, at 5:50 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 28 January 2000, at 5:57 p.m.
Posted by: Bill C.
Posted on: Friday, 28 January 2000, at 6:21 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 28 January 2000, at 9:04 p.m.
Posted by: Chin Music
Posted on: Friday, 28 January 2000, at 10:48 p.m.
Posted by: Nick Christenson (npc@jetcafe.org)
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 8:01 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 28 January 2000, at 11:29 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Saturday, 29 January 2000, at 2:25 a.m.
Posted by: Bob (chsbob@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 30 January 2000, at 10:55 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 29 January 2000, at 2:28 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 29 January 2000, at 9:16 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Saturday, 29 January 2000, at 12:39 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 29 January 2000, at 2:49 p.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 29 January 2000, at 11:57 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Sunday, 30 January 2000, at 1:10 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Sunday, 30 January 2000, at 5:14 a.m.
Posted by: Jason (quattro@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 30 January 2000, at 9:34 a.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Saturday, 29 January 2000, at 2:24 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 29 January 2000, at 3:35 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 29 January 2000, at 9:27 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 29 January 2000, at 11:08 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 29 January 2000, at 12:02 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 1:19 p.m.
Posted by: thf2
Posted on: Saturday, 29 January 2000, at 3:56 a.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 29 January 2000, at 7:24 a.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 29 January 2000, at 1:47 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Z.
Posted on: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 1:30 p.m.
Posted by: Geezer in the Making
Posted on: Saturday, 29 January 2000, at 5:25 p.m.
Posted by: Grandpa Moses
Posted on: Saturday, 29 January 2000, at 6:09 p.m.
Posted by: Bill C.
Posted on: Sunday, 30 January 2000, at 1:54 a.m.
Posted by: Geezer in the Making
Posted on: Sunday, 30 January 2000, at 5:38 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder - Feeling older these days.
Posted on: Sunday, 30 January 2000, at 9:04 a.m.
Posted by: Cliff
Posted on: Saturday, 29 January 2000, at 7:27 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Saturday, 29 January 2000, at 9:43 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 30 January 2000, at 2:14 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 30 January 2000, at 2:20 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Sunday, 30 January 2000, at 6:12 p.m.
Posted by: Cisco
Posted on: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 1:32 a.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 7:28 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 7:31 p.m.
Posted by: Anthony
Posted on: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 3:11 a.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 3:27 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 3:39 p.m.
Posted by: ram
Posted on: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 1:54 p.m.
Posted by: Dunc Mills (custserv@parcom.ab.ca)
Posted on: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 3:08 p.m.
Posted by: james H. (hansen@its.caltech.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 7:00 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 10:03 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 10:34 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 5:37 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 10:45 a.m.
Posted by: Kim T (tkimt@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 10:54 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 11:57 a.m.
Posted by: George Lind
Posted on: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 12:18 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 3:38 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 5:43 p.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 7:56 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 4:06 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 8:49 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@comdisco.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 1:20 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 9:37 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@comdisco.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 1:25 a.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wglroup.com)
Posted on: Friday, 4 February 2000, at 1:48 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 3:01 a.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wglroup.com)
Posted on: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 6:12 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 2:13 a.m.
Posted by: Pat P
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 5:39 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 8:32 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 8:36 a.m.
Posted by: Martin D
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 5:08 p.m.
Posted by: x
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 1:57 p.m.
Posted by: ronzoni
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 3:16 p.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 3:34 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 5:58 p.m.
Posted by: George Lind
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 6:18 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 6:36 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 8:27 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 11:56 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 12:44 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 6:42 a.m.
Posted by: George Lind
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 11:30 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 12:18 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 12:19 p.m.
Posted by: George Lind
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 12:40 p.m.
Posted by: George Lind
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 12:36 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 12:48 p.m.
Posted by: George Lind
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 12:59 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 3:14 p.m.
Posted by: George Lind
Posted on: Friday, 4 February 2000, at 11:23 a.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 9:57 p.m.
Posted by: royce algiers
Posted on: Thursday, 2 March 2000, at 1:53 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 6:52 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 7:24 p.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 1:56 p.m.
Posted by: Bret Murphy (murphybret@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 4:49 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 5:55 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 11:43 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 10:00 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 11:17 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 11:28 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 4:30 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 7:17 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 2:15 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 4:34 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 10:17 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 8:29 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 8:35 a.m.
Posted by: Chris Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 10:26 p.m.
Posted by: ray springfield
Posted on: Friday, 4 February 2000, at 9:20 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (CodeSavvy@acm.org)
Posted on: Friday, 4 February 2000, at 12:51 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 8:58 a.m.
Posted by: John Wren
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 11:21 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 9:02 p.m.
Posted by: John Wren
Posted on: Friday, 4 February 2000, at 8:53 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 4 February 2000, at 9:10 a.m.
Posted by: Chris Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 9:55 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 9:49 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 4 February 2000, at 7:44 a.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 1:48 p.m.
Posted by: MJChicago (m7h1j5@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 4:32 p.m.
Posted by: Holybull (holybull2@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 9:37 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 9:50 a.m.
Posted by: sabu
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 11:04 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder (guzaldo@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 12 February 2000, at 7:19 a.m.
Posted by: sabu
Posted on: Sunday, 13 February 2000, at 5:10 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 12:25 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 12:33 p.m.
Posted by: Tim (tdelaney@cascadesa.org)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 3:22 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 12:56 p.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 1:22 p.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 2:10 p.m.
Posted by: Martin D
Posted on: Friday, 4 February 2000, at 4:20 a.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Friday, 4 February 2000, at 2:32 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 4 February 2000, at 6:10 p.m.
Posted by: Wrong Forum Man
Posted on: Friday, 4 February 2000, at 3:10 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Friday, 4 February 2000, at 4:23 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 4 February 2000, at 5:25 p.m.
Posted by: Bill C.
Posted on: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 12:31 p.m.
Posted by: Wrong Forum Man
Posted on: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 4:40 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 5:07 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 1:34 p.m.
Posted by: Student
Posted on: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 10:58 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 12:59 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 1:22 p.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 1:50 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 2:18 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 3:07 p.m.
Posted by: Student
Posted on: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 11:04 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 5:46 a.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 11:59 p.m.
Posted by: Grandpa
Posted on: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 12:18 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 5:38 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 2:00 p.m.
Posted by: George Lind
Posted on: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 2:47 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 4:34 p.m.
Posted by: Scott Horton
Posted on: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 12:36 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 3:38 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 11:08 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 8:26 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 11:13 a.m.
Posted by: Mike Blair (meblai@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 9:23 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 4:33 p.m.
Posted by: Bob (chsbob@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 6:07 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 12:04 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 1:56 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 4:15 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 6:12 a.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 8:23 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 2:01 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 10:16 a.m.
Posted by: Bill C.
Posted on: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 6:58 a.m.
Posted by: Chris Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 12:56 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 10:09 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 11:57 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 10:51 a.m.
Posted by: zappo (hop222@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 10:20 p.m.
Posted by: Tim (tdelaney@cascadesa.org)
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 3:57 p.m.
Posted by: Bill (blipcon@nccn.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 10:20 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 11:45 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 11:52 a.m.
Posted by: MJChicago (m7h1j5@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 11:58 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 2:55 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 8:41 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 12 February 2000, at 3:16 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Saturday, 12 February 2000, at 4:51 a.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Monday, 14 February 2000, at 1:15 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 17 February 2000, at 4:41 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Thursday, 17 February 2000, at 6:29 a.m.
Posted by: ATWOOD
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 12:18 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 5:33 p.m.
Posted by: ATWOOD
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 5:46 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 12:04 a.m.
Posted by: ATWOOD
Posted on: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 12:21 a.m.
Posted by: Bill (blipcon@nccn.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 12:46 a.m.
Posted by: ATWOOD
Posted on: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 2:55 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 11:19 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 12:47 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 7:13 p.m.
Posted by: ATWOOD
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 8:03 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 7:19 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 8:26 p.m.
Posted by: Bill (blipcon@nccn.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 11:32 p.m.
Posted by: ATWOOD
Posted on: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 12:23 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 12:28 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 2:56 p.m.
Posted by: ronzoni
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 12:36 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 2:16 p.m.
Posted by: Oscar (Bonavena@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 10:44 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 11:14 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Z.
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 5:15 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Sunday, 13 February 2000, at 12:00 a.m.
Posted by: Bill C.
Posted on: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 3:42 p.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 9:05 a.m.
Posted by: Bill C.
Posted on: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 10:51 a.m.
Posted by: Wrong Forum Man
Posted on: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 11:39 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 12:13 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 9:39 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder (guzaldo@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 9:40 a.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 3:45 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder (guzaldo@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 4:29 p.m.
Posted by: Niels (antiveg@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 13 February 2000, at 4:43 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Sunday, 13 February 2000, at 4:53 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 13 February 2000, at 5:02 p.m.
Posted by: dexman (bneal@globaltv.ca)
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 2:03 p.m.
Posted by: Lost on 2+2
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 4:35 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder (guzaldo@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 4:39 p.m.
Posted by: MJChicago (m7h1j5@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 4:44 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 10:27 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Saturday, 12 February 2000, at 1:26 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder (guzaldo@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 12 February 2000, at 7:23 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder (guzaldo@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 5:06 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 6:25 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 6:35 p.m.
Posted by: ATWOOD
Posted on: Saturday, 12 February 2000, at 2:40 a.m.
Posted by: Tim (tdelaney@cascadesa.org)
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 2:44 p.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 7:18 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder (guzaldo@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 10:13 p.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 12 February 2000, at 12:26 a.m.
Posted by: John
Posted on: Friday, 10 March 2000, at 5:41 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 13 February 2000, at 11:41 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 13 February 2000, at 12:57 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 13 February 2000, at 9:47 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 13 February 2000, at 11:33 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Sunday, 13 February 2000, at 10:19 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 14 February 2000, at 7:34 a.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Monday, 14 February 2000, at 11:34 a.m.
Posted by: Red (red22@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 14 February 2000, at 1:43 p.m.
In the big blind I had 
Posted by: Chris Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Monday, 14 February 2000, at 1:53 p.m.
Posted by: mashie (mashie@my-deja.com)
Posted on: Monday, 14 February 2000, at 2:06 p.m.
Chris, can you send me a copy too?
Thanks, mashie
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Monday, 14 February 2000, at 3:01 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Monday, 14 February 2000, at 3:15 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 14 February 2000, at 2:35 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Monday, 14 February 2000, at 2:53 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 14 February 2000, at 4:47 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 14 February 2000, at 6:47 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 14 February 2000, at 7:02 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 14 February 2000, at 7:04 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 2:00 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 8:58 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 11:00 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 11:08 a.m.
Posted by: MJChicago (m7h1j5@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 2:47 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 2:54 p.m.
Posted by: MJChicago (m7h1j5@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 2:55 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 3:03 p.m.
Posted by: MJChicago (m7h1j5@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 3:05 p.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 3:23 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 3:52 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 4:18 p.m.
Posted by: robby
Posted on: Saturday, 26 February 2000, at 2:34 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 1:54 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 2:10 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 6:00 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 6:04 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 6:34 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 1:28 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 1:50 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 5:18 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 9:21 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 4:30 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 11:09 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 11:28 a.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 6:41 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 16 February 2000, at 6:54 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 February 2000, at 11:29 p.m.
Posted by: Mr. Text (stuckusingdos@286.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 16 February 2000, at 6:08 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 16 February 2000, at 11:02 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 16 February 2000, at 12:40 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 16 February 2000, at 5:28 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 16 February 2000, at 6:04 p.m.
Posted by: Mr. Text (stuckwithdos@286.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 17 February 2000, at 12:22 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 17 February 2000, at 12:29 a.m.
Posted by: MJChicago (m7h1j5@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 17 February 2000, at 11:19 a.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 17 February 2000, at 9:34 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 18 February 2000, at 11:09 a.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Friday, 18 February 2000, at 3:15 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Friday, 18 February 2000, at 3:21 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 19 February 2000, at 2:38 p.m.
on the button. One early limper, you raise, BB and limper both call.
and it is checked to you.
on the button. One early limper, you raise, BB and limper both call.
and it is checked to you.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Sunday, 20 February 2000, at 4:18 a.m.Suppose you hold Aª Kª on the button. One early limper, you raise, BB and limper both call. Then the flop comes 2ª 3© K© and it is checked to you.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 20 February 2000, at 7:32 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 12:20 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Wednesday, 16 February 2000, at 6:12 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 16 February 2000, at 8:26 a.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 16 February 2000, at 9:23 a.m.
Posted by: jikun (jikun@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 17 February 2000, at 1:10 a.m.
Posted by: Mr. Text (stuckwithdos@286.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 17 February 2000, at 6:51 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Thursday, 17 February 2000, at 7:21 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (stuckwithdos@286.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 17 February 2000, at 2:33 p.m.
Posted by: Smiley
Posted on: Thursday, 17 February 2000, at 12:48 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 18 February 2000, at 1:31 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 17 February 2000, at 8:25 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 17 February 2000, at 8:51 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 18 February 2000, at 1:27 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (stuckwithdos@286.com)
Posted on: Friday, 18 February 2000, at 5:53 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Friday, 18 February 2000, at 1:32 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 18 February 2000, at 7:33 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 18 February 2000, at 11:19 a.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 18 February 2000, at 1:24 p.m.
Posted by: jikun (jikun@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 18 February 2000, at 11:40 p.m.
Posted by: James Prado Roberts (jwr@app.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 17 February 2000, at 12:05 p.m.
Posted by: Trider (larryandcarolyn@uswest.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 17 February 2000, at 9:21 p.m.
Posted by: Howard Burroughs
Posted on: Friday, 18 February 2000, at 6:03 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 18 February 2000, at 2:22 p.m.
Posted by: Howard Burroughs
Posted on: Friday, 18 February 2000, at 4:40 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 20 February 2000, at 1:26 a.m.
Posted by: CT AL (horseshoe3@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 19 February 2000, at 12:08 a.m.
Posted by: randy
Posted on: Monday, 13 March 2000, at 5:07 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 19 February 2000, at 8:13 p.m.
Posted by: jikun (jikun@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 19 February 2000, at 11:26 p.m.
Posted by: Student
Posted on: Sunday, 20 February 2000, at 3:05 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Monday, 21 February 2000, at 10:11 a.m.
Posted by: Student
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 12:10 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 1:24 p.m.
Posted by: Student
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 1:55 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 3:08 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 4:43 p.m.
Posted by: Student
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 5:31 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 23 February 2000, at 1:58 a.m.
Posted by: Student
Posted on: Wednesday, 23 February 2000, at 7:37 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 5:52 p.m.
Posted by: Student
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 6:32 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 7:44 p.m.
Posted by: Student
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 7:53 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 19 February 2000, at 8:20 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (CodeSavvy@acm.org)
Posted on: Saturday, 19 February 2000, at 10:40 p.m.
Posted by: Grandpa
Posted on: Sunday, 20 February 2000, at 3:59 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (CodeSavvy@acm.org)
Posted on: Sunday, 20 February 2000, at 8:12 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Monday, 21 February 2000, at 4:19 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 20 February 2000, at 10:42 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Sunday, 20 February 2000, at 4:19 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 20 February 2000, at 4:57 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 20 February 2000, at 6:48 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 20 February 2000, at 8:26 p.m.
Posted by: Robin Phillips (shaft_247@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 20 February 2000, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: Piers
Posted on: Sunday, 20 February 2000, at 1:42 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 20 February 2000, at 12:42 p.m.
Posted by: Mike Bunis
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 1:33 a.m.
Posted by: AFish
Posted on: Sunday, 20 February 2000, at 1:33 p.m.
Posted by: AFish
Posted on: Sunday, 20 February 2000, at 1:33 p.m.
Posted by: Don Martin
Posted on: Monday, 21 February 2000, at 1:36 a.m.
Posted by: Howard Burroughs
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 8:37 p.m.
Posted by: Don Martin
Posted on: Wednesday, 23 February 2000, at 1:41 a.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 21 February 2000, at 12:37 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 21 February 2000, at 6:33 p.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 9:16 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wglroup.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 8:50 p.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 9:11 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wglroup.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 23 February 2000, at 9:49 p.m.
Posted by: Don Schleicher (DSchlei493@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 21 February 2000, at 5:08 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 23 February 2000, at 9:55 p.m.
Posted by: Murray
Posted on: Thursday, 24 February 2000, at 1:33 a.m.
Posted by: Grandpa
Posted on: Thursday, 24 February 2000, at 3:03 a.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 24 February 2000, at 4:57 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 24 February 2000, at 5:38 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 24 February 2000, at 10:08 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 1:07 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 2:40 a.m.
Posted by: Grandpa
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 2:44 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 6:32 a.m.
Posted by: ren
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 2:23 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 6:04 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 5:19 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 9:01 p.m.
Posted by: Don Schleicher (DSchlei493@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 24 February 2000, at 10:41 a.m.
Posted by: Chris Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Monday, 21 February 2000, at 11:56 p.m.
Posted by: Jason Eickmann (jayalex28@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 9:20 a.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 12:51 p.m.
Posted by: Jon
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 1:51 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 2:09 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 3:05 p.m.
Posted by: Niels (antiveg@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 6:47 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Wednesday, 23 February 2000, at 1:54 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 23 February 2000, at 7:38 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 23 February 2000, at 8:05 a.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Wednesday, 23 February 2000, at 9:01 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 24 February 2000, at 2:41 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 10:36 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 11:04 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 8:37 p.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Wednesday, 23 February 2000, at 7:24 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 24 February 2000, at 9:37 a.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 12:47 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 8:56 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 26 February 2000, at 3:03 a.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Saturday, 26 February 2000, at 10:14 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 26 February 2000, at 5:45 p.m.
Posted by: SPOTLESS
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 4:12 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 5:06 p.m.
Posted by: SPOTLESS
Posted on: Wednesday, 23 February 2000, at 9:21 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Thursday, 24 February 2000, at 6:37 a.m.
Posted by: SPOTLESS
Posted on: Thursday, 24 February 2000, at 9:18 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 24 February 2000, at 9:33 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Thursday, 24 February 2000, at 12:35 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 24 February 2000, at 6:34 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 March 2000, at 7:26 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 March 2000, at 7:39 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 4:40 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 4:46 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wglroup.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 February 2000, at 8:59 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 23 February 2000, at 2:03 a.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wglroup.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 23 February 2000, at 9:46 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 23 February 2000, at 8:07 a.m.
Posted by: Liquid Swords (liquid_swords@netzero.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 23 February 2000, at 12:11 p.m.
Posted by: MS
Posted on: Wednesday, 23 February 2000, at 11:19 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (CodeSavvy@acm.org)
Posted on: Thursday, 24 February 2000, at 2:40 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Rubenstein (drubenst@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 24 February 2000, at 8:49 a.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 24 February 2000, at 9:42 p.m.
Posted by: MS
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 5:44 a.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 8:00 a.m.
Now AC courts the 8-12 hr player who is brought in on busses from Boston, DC-Baltimore,NY, Ohio, Va etc. They provide a lot of slots. Table games and poker are 2nd and 3rd. AC used to be the vacation capital of the world in the 30's thru the 50's. The vacation part dried up in the 70's and 80 but is coming alive again.
There are enough players for LV and AC. Two different markets so far. LV should not worry. there will always be an LV even if AC soars. AC could be like an LV and Orlando combined.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 5:59 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 6:50 a.m.
Posted by: Bill G. (greenwb@ufl.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 10:50 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 10:52 a.m.
Posted by: Jon
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 12:54 p.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 2:19 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 8:40 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 10:32 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Saturday, 26 February 2000, at 1:14 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 26 February 2000, at 3:00 a.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Saturday, 26 February 2000, at 6:09 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 26 February 2000, at 9:03 a.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Saturday, 26 February 2000, at 2:33 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 9:00 p.m.
Posted by: RedAces
Posted on: Sunday, 27 February 2000, at 12:23 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 27 February 2000, at 3:14 a.m.
Posted by: Martin D
Posted on: Sunday, 27 February 2000, at 3:58 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 27 February 2000, at 1:04 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 27 February 2000, at 6:21 p.m.
Posted by: Danny D
Posted on: Monday, 28 February 2000, at 12:33 a.m.
Posted by: Jon
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 2:49 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 3:44 p.m.
Posted by: Jon
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 3:58 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 3:59 p.m.
Posted by: Piers
Posted on: Saturday, 26 February 2000, at 7:28 a.m.
Posted by: longjonsilver
Posted on: Sunday, 27 February 2000, at 8:56 p.m.
Posted by: Thomas
Posted on: Saturday, 4 March 2000, at 6:51 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Friday, 25 February 2000, at 11:13 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Saturday, 26 February 2000, at 1:06 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 26 February 2000, at 2:56 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Saturday, 26 February 2000, at 4:06 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 27 February 2000, at 1:29 a.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Monday, 28 February 2000, at 8:02 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 29 February 2000, at 12:08 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Tuesday, 29 February 2000, at 1:45 a.m."Some times one must lose everthing to find what is really important."
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 26 February 2000, at 4:05 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Saturday, 26 February 2000, at 9:13 a.m.
Posted by: doc
Posted on: Saturday, 26 February 2000, at 12:35 a.m.
Posted by: Dave Fancher (mtndave@sprintmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 26 February 2000, at 2:30 a.m.
Posted by: doc
Posted on: Sunday, 27 February 2000, at 1:43 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 27 February 2000, at 9:58 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (CodeSavvy@acm.org)
Posted on: Monday, 28 February 2000, at 12:08 a.m.
Posted by: Dr. Grammar
Posted on: Monday, 28 February 2000, at 3:30 a.m.
Posted by: Calvin
Posted on: Monday, 28 February 2000, at 4:00 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 28 February 2000, at 12:03 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 29 February 2000, at 4:51 p.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 28 February 2000, at 11:54 a.m.
Could I move up to $15-30 or more? I have played with players who are always playing higher limits and do well against them, but the extra bankroll to move to 15-30/20-40 may be prohibitive. any advice given only the tidbits i have sent?
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 28 February 2000, at 12:12 p.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 28 February 2000, at 8:30 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 29 February 2000, at 12:15 p.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 29 February 2000, at 1:31 p.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabahn@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 29 February 2000, at 3:33 p.m.
Posted by: ATWOOD
Posted on: Tuesday, 29 February 2000, at 1:48 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 29 February 2000, at 5:18 p.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Friday, 3 March 2000, at 1:59 a.m.
Posted by: ATWOOD
Posted on: Saturday, 4 March 2000, at 2:31 a.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 March 2000, at 10:12 a.m.
Posted by: ronzoni
Posted on: Tuesday, 29 February 2000, at 2:17 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Tuesday, 29 February 2000, at 10:29 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 March 2000, at 1:49 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 March 2000, at 8:47 a.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 March 2000, at 10:39 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 March 2000, at 11:57 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 March 2000, at 2:59 p.m."I play fast, consequently I'm not very good. Too many mistakes. Of course even when I play a non timed game I'm not very good so I prefer the fast games. Instant gratification is a curse. "
"A situation arose when I had about 8 minutes remaining and my opponent about five. my opponent made a move that was death for him. My next move was check mate. Before I could move my mouse he requested an "undo". He said his mouse slipped and asked if he could take his move back. I immediately allowed the undo and he changed his move and we continued."
"A little while later with 5 minutes remaining for me and about one and a half minutes for him a similar situation arose only this time I made a "slip" move. I thought it appropriate to ask and see just what kind of a guy I was playing...and my opponet commented "I only have a minute left". I thought for a second and then forfeited the game."
"Of course if there were money or some other prize on the line I may not grant the undo in the first place. But then again if that were the case I would ensure that the rules didn't allow for undo's."
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 March 2000, at 5:20 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 March 2000, at 8:23 a.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 March 2000, at 10:36 a.m.
Posted by: ronzoni
Posted on: Thursday, 2 March 2000, at 1:52 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 2 March 2000, at 7:22 a.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Thursday, 2 March 2000, at 1:50 p.m.
Posted by: jikun (jikun@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 March 2000, at 9:14 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 3 March 2000, at 10:27 a.m.
Posted by: Hadi (Pokerbluff@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 March 2000, at 10:54 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 2 March 2000, at 11:07 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 March 2000, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 March 2000, at 6:36 p.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 March 2000, at 9:22 p.m.
Posted by: Carl S.
Posted on: Monday, 6 March 2000, at 7:33 a.m.
Posted by: MJChicago (m7h1j5@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 6 March 2000, at 2:21 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 4 March 2000, at 1:04 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Saturday, 4 March 2000, at 5:33 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 4 March 2000, at 6:53 p.m.
Posted by: John (johnjmp@operamail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 11 March 2000, at 8:19 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Monday, 6 March 2000, at 1:27 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 6 March 2000, at 8:49 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Monday, 6 March 2000, at 10:09 a.m.
Posted by: Curious
Posted on: Monday, 6 March 2000, at 8:11 a.m.
Posted by: PokerPro
Posted on: Monday, 6 March 2000, at 11:54 p.m.
Posted by: Kevin L
Posted on: Monday, 6 March 2000, at 11:26 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 1:09 a.m.
Posted by: Betelgeuse
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 10:05 a.m.
Posted by: Coco Camel
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 3:47 p.m.
Posted by: thomas222 (dan222@gateway.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 March 2000, at 3:16 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Saturday, 4 March 2000, at 5:36 p.m.
Posted by: thomas222 (dan222@gateway.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 March 2000, at 7:16 p.m.
Posted by: thomas222 (dan222@gateway.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 March 2000, at 7:06 p.m.
Posted by: Goat
Posted on: Saturday, 4 March 2000, at 8:17 p.m.
Posted by: DjTj (tjou@caltech.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 March 2000, at 9:29 p.m.
Posted by: Goat
Posted on: Saturday, 4 March 2000, at 11:45 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Monday, 6 March 2000, at 1:44 a.m."empirically, it really does seem like "all of the above" is the answer about half the time...
Posted by: DjTj (tjou@caltech.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 6 March 2000, at 5:31 a.m.
Posted by: jikun (jikun@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 March 2000, at 9:05 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Sunday, 5 March 2000, at 4:47 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 5 March 2000, at 8:46 a.m.
Posted by: david (dmb68@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Sunday, 5 March 2000, at 3:14 p.m.
Posted by: Maniac Mark (mlundqui@seas.upenn.edu)
Posted on: Sunday, 5 March 2000, at 11:33 p.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Monday, 6 March 2000, at 10:09 a.m.
Posted by: PokerPro
Posted on: Monday, 6 March 2000, at 5:30 p.m.
Posted by: MS (Margol@ianitrix.net)
Posted on: Monday, 6 March 2000, at 10:22 p.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 7:53 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 10:06 a.m.
Posted by: MS (Margol@ianitrix.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 11:09 a.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 8:56 a.m.
Posted by: rudie pooh
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 1:33 p.m.
Posted by: Donald Trump
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 2:18 p.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 March 2000, at 9:03 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 1:26 a.m.
Posted by: John (johnjmp@operamail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 11 March 2000, at 8:23 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 2:11 a.m.
Posted by: skp (supriyabc@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 2:24 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 3:27 a.m.
Posted by: Cisco
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 4:56 a.m.
Posted by: George Lind
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 5:41 p.m.
Posted by: Jon
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 8:33 a.m.
Posted by: Phil Hellmuth, Jr.
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 9:46 a.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 11:39 a.m.
Posted by: Kevin L
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 10:11 a.m.
Posted by: George Lind
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 11:48 a.m.
Posted by: George Lind
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 11:49 a.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 12:49 p.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 2:15 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 6:28 p.m.
Posted by: Dunc Mills (custserv@parcom.ab.ca)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 5:29 p.m.
Posted by: George Lind
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 3:16 p.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 4:01 p.m.
Posted by: George Lind
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 4:07 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 4:11 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Z.
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 8:05 p.m.
Posted by: SOTSOG (jdider@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 8:20 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Sprung
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 12:48 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 March 2000, at 10:29 p.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabahn@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 March 2000, at 8:43 p.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 March 2000, at 9:54 p.m.
Posted by: Gus
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 March 2000, at 6:33 p.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 7:56 a.m.
Posted by: Kevin L
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 March 2000, at 10:47 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 8:38 a.m.
Posted by: George Lind
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 11:18 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (CodeSavvy@acm.org)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 March 2000, at 7:29 a.m.
Posted by: Chris Alger (algerc@idt.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 March 2000, at 3:45 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 March 2000, at 5:13 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 March 2000, at 7:17 p.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabahn@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 March 2000, at 8:31 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 10:49 a.m.
Posted by: Chris Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 1:30 p.m.
Posted by: Dunc Mills (custserv@parcom.ab.ca)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 4:55 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 9:26 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 March 2000, at 2:43 a.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 March 2000, at 3:52 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 March 2000, at 7:04 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wglroup.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 7:56 a.m.
Posted by: Kevin L
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 March 2000, at 10:56 p.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 March 2000, at 11:46 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Friday, 10 March 2000, at 10:58 a.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 7:53 a.m.
Posted by: Kevin L
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 5:14 p.m.
Posted by: RedAces
Posted on: Saturday, 11 March 2000, at 9:33 a.m.
Posted by: Izmet Fekali (izmet@siol.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 9:33 a.m.
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World since 1389!
http://izmet.desetka.si
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 9:57 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 2:35 p.m.
Posted by: Dunc Mills (custserv@parcom.ab.ca)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 3:42 p.m.
Posted by: Ken Clayburne (kclayburne@insurancebondsinc.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 3:51 p.m.
Posted by: Kevin L
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 5:24 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 9:58 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 5:44 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 10 March 2000, at 12:58 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 10 March 2000, at 1:34 a.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 13 March 2000, at 10:18 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 March 2000, at 12:35 a.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 March 2000, at 12:53 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 March 2000, at 4:18 p.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Friday, 10 March 2000, at 6:17 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 4:52 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 9:23 p.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 9:47 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 9:54 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 March 2000, at 7:19 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 10:53 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 March 2000, at 11:03 a.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 13 March 2000, at 9:53 p.m.
What's that got to do with photos? I don't know. just lost my train of thought.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 March 2000, at 11:45 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 March 2000, at 7:08 a.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 March 2000, at 11:48 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 March 2000, at 10:51 p.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Friday, 10 March 2000, at 5:39 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 March 2000, at 6:21 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 11 March 2000, at 5:40 a.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Monday, 13 March 2000, at 12:25 a.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Monday, 13 March 2000, at 5:05 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Monday, 13 March 2000, at 5:51 p.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Monday, 13 March 2000, at 8:35 p.m.
Posted by: Chico
Posted on: Friday, 10 March 2000, at 8:26 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 11 March 2000, at 9:02 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 12 March 2000, at 6:44 p.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 11 March 2000, at 9:37 a.m.
Posted by: Heidi
Posted on: Monday, 13 March 2000, at 4:13 a.m.
Posted by: jikun (jikun@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 13 March 2000, at 9:37 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 March 2000, at 4:08 p.m.
Posted by: George Lind (georgel@netpro.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 March 2000, at 4:21 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 March 2000, at 4:55 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 March 2000, at 9:07 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 March 2000, at 5:47 p.m.
Posted by: notme
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 March 2000, at 6:06 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 March 2000, at 6:49 p.m.
Posted by: Chico
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 March 2000, at 8:41 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wglroup.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 March 2000, at 10:30 a.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 19 March 2000, at 3:55 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 1:17 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Sprung
Posted on: Friday, 24 March 2000, at 9:13 p.m.
Posted by: ATWOOD
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 March 2000, at 4:26 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 March 2000, at 4:56 p.m.
Posted by: Steve C. (slchable@camden.navy.mil)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 March 2000, at 12:48 a.m.
Posted by: Chris Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 March 2000, at 1:24 a.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wglroup.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 March 2000, at 10:37 a.m.
Posted by: Dice
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 March 2000, at 12:40 p.m.
Posted by: George Lind (georgel@netpro.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 March 2000, at 2:17 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 March 2000, at 5:28 p.m.
Posted by: George Lind (georgel@netpro.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 March 2000, at 5:46 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 March 2000, at 2:20 p.m.
Posted by: Chollowa (chollowa@uci.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 March 2000, at 3:32 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 March 2000, at 6:27 p.m.
Posted by: 2d (matti2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 March 2000, at 11:35 a.m.
Posted by: Eddy (dwasem@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 March 2000, at 3:51 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Alger (algerc@idt.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 March 2000, at 5:20 p.m.
Posted by: George Lind (georgel@netpro.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 March 2000, at 5:59 p.m.
Posted by: Eddy (dwasem@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 March 2000, at 7:19 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 March 2000, at 7:29 p.m.
Posted by: Eddy (dwasem@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 March 2000, at 7:32 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 March 2000, at 8:13 p.m.
Posted by: Old Pro
Posted on: Thursday, 16 March 2000, at 11:29 p.m.
Posted by: Kevin L
Posted on: Friday, 17 March 2000, at 6:10 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 17 March 2000, at 2:38 p.m.
Posted by: George Lind (georgel@netpro.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 March 2000, at 3:25 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 March 2000, at 8:42 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 March 2000, at 6:57 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 March 2000, at 2:26 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 March 2000, at 2:42 p.m.
Posted by: jikun (jikun@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 March 2000, at 9:33 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 March 2000, at 12:42 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 March 2000, at 10:53 a.m.
Posted by: Lady Gambler
Posted on: Friday, 17 March 2000, at 7:32 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 March 2000, at 8:30 p.m.
Posted by: Lady Gambler
Posted on: Friday, 17 March 2000, at 8:01 p.m.
Posted by: Lady Gambler's Conscience
Posted on: Friday, 17 March 2000, at 8:20 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 March 2000, at 8:34 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 March 2000, at 8:35 p.m.
Posted by: Lady Gambler
Posted on: Friday, 17 March 2000, at 9:21 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 March 2000, at 10:23 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Friday, 17 March 2000, at 9:05 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 March 2000, at 1:56 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Sunday, 19 March 2000, at 3:35 a.m.
Posted by: Sme
Posted on: Saturday, 18 March 2000, at 9:05 p.m.
Posted by: Kevin L
Posted on: Sunday, 19 March 2000, at 9:34 a.m.
Posted by: Chris Alger (algerc@idt.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 19 March 2000, at 4:08 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock
Posted on: Sunday, 19 March 2000, at 11:39 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Monday, 20 March 2000, at 3:08 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Monday, 20 March 2000, at 3:24 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 20 March 2000, at 6:15 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Monday, 20 March 2000, at 6:25 p.m.
Posted by: Sean Duffy
Posted on: Monday, 20 March 2000, at 9:07 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 20 March 2000, at 9:43 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock
Posted on: Monday, 20 March 2000, at 10:12 p.m.
Posted by: Erin
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 March 2000, at 6:39 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 March 2000, at 11:08 a.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock
Posted on: Monday, 20 March 2000, at 10:04 p.m.
Posted by: jikun (jikun@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 19 March 2000, at 4:19 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 19 March 2000, at 6:12 p.m.
Posted by: jikun (jikun@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 19 March 2000, at 8:40 p.m.
Posted by: Kevin L
Posted on: Monday, 20 March 2000, at 3:42 a.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 March 2000, at 1:53 p.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 19 March 2000, at 7:49 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 19 March 2000, at 8:32 p.m.
Posted by: Sue
Posted on: Monday, 20 March 2000, at 12:26 a.m.
Posted by: Bruce K (bkeaton@juno.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 March 2000, at 5:17 p.m.
Posted by: Sue
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 12:40 a.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Monday, 20 March 2000, at 12:57 p.m.
Posted by: Matthew Bjorge (ferdayferday@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 20 March 2000, at 8:20 p.m.
Posted by: Sparty-MichSt (michstfan@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 20 March 2000, at 10:26 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 March 2000, at 8:36 a.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 March 2000, at 10:50 a.m.
Posted by: John Kelley (kelleyjo@fairfield.k12.ia.us)
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 March 2000, at 3:19 p.m.
Posted by: Jay Gorsegner (gerald.gorsegner@level3.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 March 2000, at 5:28 p.m.
Posted by: MS (Margol@ianitrix.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 March 2000, at 8:07 p.m.
Posted by: ronzoni
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 March 2000, at 8:48 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 March 2000, at 9:40 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 March 2000, at 2:30 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 March 2000, at 11:52 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 March 2000, at 9:55 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 March 2000, at 10:09 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 10:21 p.m.
Posted by: Lance
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 March 2000, at 2:15 p.m.
Posted by: Duke Of Earl (Jewels@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 March 2000, at 8:42 p.m.
Posted by: Kevin L
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 10:02 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 11:41 a.m.
Posted by: MJChicago (m7h1j5@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 12:09 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Friday, 24 March 2000, at 1:27 a.m.
Posted by: Eric
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 11:30 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 12:18 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 12:41 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 12:44 p.m.
Posted by: Anon
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 1:41 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 3:22 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 5:08 p.m.
Posted by: Anon
Posted on: Friday, 24 March 2000, at 11:41 a.m.
Posted by: Anon
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 5:24 p.m.
Posted by: Grinder
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 6:59 p.m.
Posted by: Anon
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 7:29 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 24 March 2000, at 11:19 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 24 March 2000, at 11:16 a.m.
Posted by: Anon
Posted on: Friday, 24 March 2000, at 11:39 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 March 2000, at 12:13 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 March 2000, at 2:07 a.m.
Posted by: Anon
Posted on: Friday, 24 March 2000, at 11:43 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 24 March 2000, at 12:13 p.m.
Posted by: Anon
Posted on: Friday, 24 March 2000, at 1:42 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 March 2000, at 2:30 p.m.
Posted by: Anon
Posted on: Friday, 24 March 2000, at 2:50 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 March 2000, at 8:20 p.m.
Posted by: Old Pro
Posted on: Saturday, 25 March 2000, at 4:05 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 25 March 2000, at 5:01 a.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Saturday, 25 March 2000, at 5:21 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 25 March 2000, at 9:36 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 March 2000, at 5:08 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 2:34 a.m.
Posted by: MS (Margol@ianitrix.net)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 4:54 p.m.
Posted by: Anon
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 4:33 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 1:17 p.m.
Posted by: Liquid Swords (liquid_swords@netzero.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 3:23 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 5:45 p.m.
Posted by: Jon I.
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 3:03 p.m.
Posted by: MJChicago (m7h1j5@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 March 2000, at 10:14 a.m.
Posted by: Tim (tdelaney@cascadesa.org)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 March 2000, at 3:31 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 9:18 p.m.
Posted by: Robin Phillips (shaft_247@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 March 2000, at 5:18 p.m.
Posted by: MS (Margol@ianitrix.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 March 2000, at 10:43 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 March 2000, at 11:47 a.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 March 2000, at 3:51 p.m.
Posted by: Robin Phillips (shaft_247@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 March 2000, at 5:15 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 March 2000, at 5:46 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 9:16 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 March 2000, at 12:09 a.m.
Posted by: Robin Phillips (shaft_247@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 March 2000, at 3:37 a.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 March 2000, at 8:10 a.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 March 2000, at 4:39 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 7:02 a.m.
Posted by: Beginner (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 12:17 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 2:08 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 1:47 p.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 March 2000, at 4:34 p.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 4:53 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Rubenstein (drubenst@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 9:28 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 March 2000, at 4:40 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 12:07 a.m.
Posted by: Doubting Thomas
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 1:39 a.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 2:55 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 3:45 a.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 5:30 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 1:38 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 6:00 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 7:07 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 10:11 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 3:19 a.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 2:39 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 4:14 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 5:35 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 6:04 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 7:03 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 12:34 a.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 4:34 a.m.
Posted by: Izmet Fekali (izmet@siol.net)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 12:58 a.m.
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World Since 1389!
Albania, Slovenia, Europe
http://www.fekali.com
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 2:15 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 4:22 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 1:08 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 9:36 a.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 3:35 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 4:31 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 7:33 p.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 9:25 p.m.
Posted by: WildBill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 11:34 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 12:46 a.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 11:21 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 5:07 p.m.
Posted by: Cisco
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 1:15 a.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 5:03 p.m.
Posted by: Chico
Posted on: Saturday, 25 March 2000, at 10:59 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 March 2000, at 11:22 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 7:06 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 1:34 p.m.
Posted by: Betelgeuse
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 9:45 a.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 4:44 p.m.
Posted by: Chico
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 5:42 p.m.
Posted by: mah (mah@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 8:43 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 26 March 2000, at 9:08 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 12:24 a.m.
Posted by: Kevin L
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 12:10 a.m.
Posted by: ray springfield
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 6:27 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 8:32 p.m.
Posted by: jikun (jikun@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 12:35 a.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 2:47 a.m.
Posted by: jikun (jikun@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 8:34 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 7:38 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 March 2000, at 8:58 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 9:56 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 10:45 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 12:26 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 4:05 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 10:18 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 5:59 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 10:14 p.m.
Posted by: Salty Dawg
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 12:21 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 6:19 a.m.
Posted by: Salty Dawg
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 1:54 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 2:41 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 3:49 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 6:21 p.m.
Posted by: dave
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 1:37 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 2:14 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 9:18 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 11:59 p.m.
Posted by: Old Pro
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 3:14 a.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 6:03 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 7:26 p.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 9:46 p.m.
Posted by: thats cheap
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 6:15 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 10:17 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 1:39 a.m."I occasionally make posts here saying "poker is a waste of time." So is a regular day job. Both have the flaw that long term growth is limited. Ultimately, I would like to get into stocks, options. For now, I'm looking into sports betting."
Work in what you enjoy doing and you'll never work another day in your life.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 1:54 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 2:57 a.m.
Posted by: MS (Margol@ianitrix.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 11:19 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 5:28 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 4:57 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 6:46 p.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 3:19 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 6:22 a.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 8:21 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 March 2000, at 11:59 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 8:43 a.m.
Posted by: Jon I.
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 9:48 a.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 5:39 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 8:04 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 11:16 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 11:39 p.m.
Posted by: anyone
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 3:58 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 11:43 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 11:45 a.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 10:21 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 6:35 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 8:42 a.m.
Posted by: Dave Fancher (mtndave@sprintmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 1:08 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 6:16 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 8:14 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 9:59 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 11:30 a.m.
Posted by: Dave Fancher (mtndave@sprintmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 1:54 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 4:45 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 6:45 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 8:49 a.m.
Posted by: Plus I forgot ...
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 8:53 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 9:10 a.m.
Posted by: jikun (jikun@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 March 2000, at 11:20 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 12:08 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 1:21 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 11:24 a.m.
Posted by: jikun (jikun@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 8:37 p.m.
Posted by: Bill G. (greenwb@ufl.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 9:29 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 11:18 a.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 2:34 p.m.
Posted by: Bill G.
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 7:45 p.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 9:46 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 3:52 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 5:21 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 5:51 p.m.
Posted by: God
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 5:53 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 9:14 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 6:02 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Rubenstein (drubenst@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 5:58 p.m.
2.Hate (La Haine)
3.North by Northwest
4.Casablanca
5.Chinatown
6.The 400 Blows
7.Forbidden Planet
8.Reservoir Dogs
9.Raging Bull
10.Goldfinger
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 7:27 p.m.
Posted by: ebert
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 10:31 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 9:46 p.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 11:03 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 1:19 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 6:02 p.m.
Posted by: God
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 7:28 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 8:35 p.m.
Posted by: Mephistopheles (satan's-little-helper@hell.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 9:45 p.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 6:22 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 6:42 p.m.
Posted by: Howard Burroughs
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 1:59 a.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 2:15 a.m.
Posted by: Howard Burroughs
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 1:59 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 11:00 a.m.
Posted by: Dunc Mills (custserv@parcom.ab.ca)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 7:26 p.m.
Posted by: Bill G.
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 7:39 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 9:17 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 10:09 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 12:03 a.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 2:08 a.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 11:26 p.m.
Posted by: jikun (jikun@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 11:30 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 2:18 p.m.
Posted by: jikun (jikun@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 8:26 p.m.
Posted by: ATWOOD
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 11:55 p.m.
Posted by: Howard Burroughs
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 5:58 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 3:21 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 6:35 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 1:10 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 8:00 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 9:09 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 9:33 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 11:17 a.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 1:33 p.m.
Posted by: jack spades
Posted on: Friday, 21 April 2000, at 2:58 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 7:26 p.m.
5 Godfather I
4 Casablanca
4 Reservoir Dogs
3 Citizen Kane
3 Shawshank Redemption
3 Sting
2 African queen
2 Alien
2 Apocalypse now
2 Blues Brothers
2 Braveheart
2 Chinatown
2 Clerks
2 Diehard
2 Enter the Dragon
2 Goldfinger
2 Goodfellas
2 Great Santini
2 High Noon
2 It's a Wonderful Life.
2 Midnight Run
2 North by Northwest
2 Patton
2 Pulp Fiction
2 Rocky I
2 Rocky II
2 Rounders
2 Taxi Driver
2 Titanic
Posted by: Dan Sprung
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 12:42 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 9:17 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 8:47 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 9:04 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 9:36 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 9:42 a.m.
Posted by: Sparty (michstfan@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 10:00 p.m.
Posted by: ATWOOD
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 11:44 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 6:45 p.m.
Posted by: Johnny Asker
Posted on: Thursday, 30 March 2000, at 11:52 p.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 2:30 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 6:39 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 7:55 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 9:59 a.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 10:14 a.m.
Posted by: Dunc Mills (custserv@parcom.ab.ca)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 10:30 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 10:39 a.m.
Posted by: DeadBart (dsb12@cornell.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 11:31 a.m.
Posted by: Bill G.
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 12:25 p.m.
Posted by: gamblerbri (gamblerbri@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 1:00 p.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 1:29 p.m.
Posted by: Howard Burroughs
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 2:39 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primente.com)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 5:09 p.m.
Posted by: 2d (matti2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 1:57 p.m.
Posted by: Howard Burroughs
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 2:17 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 5:42 p.m.
Posted by: Howard Burroughs
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 5:01 a.m.
Posted by: Jon I.
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 4:31 p.m.
Posted by: Guy
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 8:03 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 8:45 p.m.
Posted by: DjTj (tjou@caltech.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 8:52 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 11:02 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 6:17 a.m.
Posted by: Guy
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 11:38 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 11:50 p.m.
Posted by: Bill G.
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 10:40 p.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 1:12 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 4:15 a.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 6:23 p.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 2:35 a.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 3:58 p.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 5:47 p.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 6:50 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Johnson
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 5:26 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 7:06 p.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 1:27 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 1:27 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 3:23 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 6:28 p.m.
Posted by: jikun (jikun@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 10:37 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 10:56 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Friday, 31 March 2000, at 11:15 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 5:08 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 3:36 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 12:00 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 4:34 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 4:20 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Rubenstein (drubenst@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 10:46 a.m.
Posted by: RedAces
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 12:54 p.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 8:38 p.m.
2. Fandangos in Space (Carmen)
3. Playback (Appletree Theater with Larry Coryell
4. Piano Man (Billy Joel--original recording)
5. In the Court of the Crimson King (obvious)
6. 12 Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus (Spirit)
7. Thick as a Brick (Tull)
8. Grand Wazzo (Zappa)
9. Happy Trails (Quicksilver Messenger Service)
10.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 7:26 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 3:30 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 5:03 p.m.
Posted by: Ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 12:10 a.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 5:37 a.m.
Posted by: Lee Jones (leej@alumni.duke.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 5:46 p.m.
Posted by: Ump
Posted on: Sunday, 9 April 2000, at 7:04 a.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Sunday, 9 April 2000, at 7:32 p.m.
Posted by: Lee Jones (leej@alumni.duke.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 8 April 2000, at 2:01 a.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Sunday, 9 April 2000, at 7:29 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 8:01 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 10:26 p.m.
Posted by: Anon
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 4:09 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 4:23 a.m.
Warren Zevon - Excitable Boy
The Beatles - Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band
The Who - Who's Next
Pink Floyd - The Wall
Frank Sinatra - In the Wee Small Hours
Bob Dylan - Highway 61 Revisited
The Beach Boys - Pet Sounds
REM - Automatic for the People
Lynyrd Skynyrd - Street Survivors
Bruce Springsteen - Born to Run
The Rolling Stones - Let it Bleed
Guns N' Roses - Appetite for Destruction
Posted by: Dunc Mills (custserv@parcom.ab.ca)
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 3:28 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 6:29 p.m.
At Action Park by Shellac
Entertainment by Gang of Four
The Cars by The Cars
American Nervosa by Botch
Highway to Hell by AC/DC
Paranoid by Black Sabbath
New Plastic Ideas by Unwound
Pink Moon by Nick Drake
The Chronic by Dr. Dre
There's Nothing Wrong With Love by Built to Spill
Led Zeppelin I
Fair Warning by Van Halen
Wrong by Nomeansno
Oblique by Bobby Hutcherson
Blues and Roots by Charles Mingus
Deeds not Words by Max Roach
Brown and Roach, Inc. by Clifford Brown/Max Roach
Out to Lunch by Eric Dolphy
Tomcat by Lee Morgan
Bags and Wes by Wes Montgomery and Milt Jackson
Thelonious Monk and Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers
Milestones by Miles Davis
Impressions by John Coltrane
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 6:32 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 6:41 p.m.
Master of Puppets by Metallica
Live at Leeds the Who(original version)
Fair Warning (unchained exploding through the speakers at AVMC on 5/7/1984 was the most blown away I've ever been)
3 songs on Paranoid by Black Sabbath
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 1:59 p.m.
Reign in Blood by Slayer
Bleeding by Cannibal Corpse
Screaming for Vengeance by Judas Priest
Kill 'Em All by Metallica
Vulgar Display of Power by Pantera
Astrocreep 2000 by White Zombie
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 4:53 p.m.
Posted by: Daniel Patton
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 1:10 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 12:08 p.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 12:16 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 12:37 p.m.
Posted by: Izmet Fekali (izmet@siol.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 3:02 p.m.
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World Since 1389!
Albania, Slovenia, Europe
http://www.fekali.com
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 1:50 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 3:32 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 1:03 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 3:57 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 1:30 p.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 5:07 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 6:39 p.m.
Posted by: Ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 12:04 a.m.
Posted by: Goof
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 2:24 p.m.
Posted by: kevin
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 4:43 p.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 5:19 p.m.
The poker is good too. Lots of nice people who have the attitude, "I do not care if I loose a few $$$, I'm having a great time"..GREAT attitude. I love it.
So, run on down for a few hrs. No place special. Taj, Trop and Bally's are OK this weekend.
Posted by: Roving Reporter
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 5:46 p.m.
Posted by: Roving Reporter
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 6:58 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 7:12 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 9:42 p.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 8:39 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 7:34 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 7:38 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 4:52 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 4:54 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 11:26 a.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 3:35 p.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 8:22 p.m.
Posted by: Roving Reporter
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 7:45 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 8:25 p.m.
Posted by: jikun (jikun@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 1 April 2000, at 8:58 p.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 2 April 2000, at 5:23 p.m.
Posted by: Murray
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 10:14 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 10:43 p.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 12:56 a.m.
Posted by: Murray
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 11:26 p.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 12:56 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 9:59 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 7:14 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 9:55 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 2:21 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 3:27 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 11:11 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 12:03 a.m.
Posted by: Ratso
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 8:51 a.m.
If anyone out there thinks tobacco smoke, primary or secondary, does not contribute to development of cancer then I have some land in a moist section of Florida I would like to sell you.
Smoking is a killer, but if you want to do it--it's your choice, but do it outside.
Posted by: Ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 12:02 a.m.
1. Tusker Premium Lager (Kenya-best summer beer ever made)
2. Yuengling Lager (great cheap Amer. beer)
3. Anchor Steam (great expensive Amer. beer)
4. Sierra Nevada Pale Ale (USA)
5. Watney's Red Barrel Lager (England)
6. San Miguel Dark (Manila)
7. Samuel Smith Imperial Stout (England)
8. Pilsner Urquell (Czech)
9. Krin Lager (Japan via Canada)
10. Dock Street Bohemian (USA)
11. Messina (Italy)
12. Kozel Pilsner (Czech)
13. Pulaner Octoberfest (Germany)
14. Harp Lager (Ireland)
15. Burning River Ale (Great Lakes-Cleveland)
16. Grolsch (Holland)
17. Pulaner Salvator (double bock-Germany)
18. Chimay Ale (Belgium)
19. Labatt Lager (Canada)
20. Raffo (Italy)
Thomas Hardy Ale (england)
Coors Extra (bad) Gold (usa)
Schlitz (USA)
Piels (USA)
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 4:00 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Rubenstein (drubenst@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 5:14 p.m.
Posted by: Ratso
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 10:59 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 9:13 a.m.
Posted by: Bill (blipcon@nccn.net)
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 9:40 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 8:55 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 9:51 p.m.
Posted by: jikun (jikun@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 11:39 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 4:55 a.m.
Posted by: Ratso
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 10:55 a.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 12:44 p.m.
Posted by: Bill (blipcon@nccn.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 1:25 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 6:12 p.m.
Posted by: Jon I.
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 2:50 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 3:10 p.m.
Posted by: Jon I.
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 3:50 p.m.
Posted by: Bill (blipcon@nccn.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 4:41 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 8:03 p.m.
Posted by: Jon I.
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 8:12 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 5:57 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 7:52 p.m.
Posted by: Maniac Mark (mlundqui@mbhs.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 1:39 a.m.
Posted by: Radical hippie
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 1:30 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 6:25 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 7:50 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 6:41 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 7:55 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 4:26 p.m.
Posted by: MJChicago (m7h1j5@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 4:32 p.m.
Posted by: Ben Greene
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 10:59 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 12:23 p.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 1:21 p.m.
Posted by: Howard Burroughs
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 2:11 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 10:55 p.m.
Posted by: Sparty (michstfan@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 4:51 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 5:04 a.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 3:45 p.m.
Posted by: MJChicago (m7h1j5@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 3:56 p.m.
Posted by: Jon I.
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 4:25 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 9:56 a.m.
Posted by: Jon I. (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 11:18 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 10:58 a.m.
Posted by: Jon I. (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 11:23 a.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 7:41 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 3 April 2000, at 9:43 p.m.
Posted by: ED I
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 12:40 a.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 9:51 a.m.
Posted by: snowman
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 12:45 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 12:57 p.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 1:30 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 2:06 p.m.
Posted by: Duke Of Earl (jewels@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 1:38 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 6:02 p.m.
Posted by: ED I
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 10:38 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 1:24 a.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 9:58 a.m.
Posted by: ED I
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 10:01 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 12:14 p.m.
Posted by: ED I
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 12:47 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 12:33 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 2:51 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 11:07 a.m.
Posted by: George Lind (georgel@netpro.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 12:50 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 4:45 a.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 10:04 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 12:32 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 2:59 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 12:51 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 1:29 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 4:34 p.m.
Posted by: Ratso
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 10:51 a.m.
Last Sunday, Tony visits Junior to tell him Richie is going to remove him (Tony). Tony leaves and Junior ponders his own fate, deciding outloud that he (Junior) is better off with Tony than Richie. Junior's housemate (the big dude) is just standing in the room looking at Junior. Junior looks over and sees the big dude staring at him and says, "What the fuck are you looking at?" The big dude just replies, "I am just in awe of you" ....so out of place -- that it makes the line funny....maybe you had to see it.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 12:23 p.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 12:16 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 5:04 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Rubenstein (drubenst@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 6:17 p.m.
2. 1-4-8-8
3. 1-5, no-ante
4. 15-30 with blinds of 10-15
5. 3-6-12 on the end
6. Pot-limit
7. No-limit
8. 80-160 with a $20 ante
9. 40-80 with a $10 ante
10. 10-20-40 on the end
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 12:37 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 6:24 p.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 7:53 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 7:55 p.m.
Posted by: MjChicago
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 10:38 p.m.
Posted by: Anonymous
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 6:42 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 7:31 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 7:39 p.m.
Posted by: Howard Burroughs
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 8:51 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 7:48 p.m.
Posted by: anonymous
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 8:07 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 April 2000, at 8:44 p.m.
Posted by: Wrong Forum Man
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 8:06 a.m.
Posted by: Gus
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 12:44 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 3:35 p.m.
Posted by: Dunc Mills (custserv@parcom.ab.ca)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 3:42 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 3:47 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 6:27 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 6:32 p.m.
Posted by: Dunc Mills (custserv@parcom.ab.ca)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 7:03 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Rubenstein (drubenst@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 9:31 p.m.
1. Chocolate Cream. No explanation necessary.
2. Apple crumble. Enough cinnamon to start WWIII."
4. Strawberry. Best when the California berries are at the peak of the season. I get hard (arteries) just thinking about it.
5. Wild Saskatoon. You 'mericans probably have never even tasted Saskatoon berries. Hah."
Posted by: Maniac Mark (mlundqui@mbhs.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 1:15 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 9:31 p.m.
Posted by: Maniac Mark (mlundqui@mbhs.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 1:26 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 2:11 a.m.
Posted by: Dunc Mills (custserv@parcom.ab.ca)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 10:10 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 11:15 a.m.
Posted by: Bill (blipcon@nccn.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 12:01 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 2:28 p.m.
Posted by: Bill (blipcon@nccn.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 4:42 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 12:35 a.m.
Posted by: Radical hippie
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 1:34 p.m.
Posted by: Tony Lupo (anthonylu15@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 8:15 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 2:56 p.m.
Posted by: JPN in Madison (shuview@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 2:09 a.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 12:17 p.m.
Posted by: JPN in Madison (shuview@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 1:30 a.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 12:11 p.m.
Posted by: espo (eespling@pnri.org)
Posted on: Saturday, 8 April 2000, at 2:04 a.m.
Posted by: Kevin L
Posted on: Sunday, 9 April 2000, at 3:32 a.m.
Posted by: JPN in Madison (shuview@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 April 2000, at 11:33 p.m.
Posted by: Ryan
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 12:31 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 3:40 p.m.
Posted by: Ryan
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 2:45 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 11:01 a.m.
Posted by: Take The Points (TakeThePoints@webtv.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 9:13 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 10:09 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 10:19 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 10:24 a.m.
Posted by: samo666
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 April 2000, at 8:03 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 11:02 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 11:39 a.m.
Posted by: Take The Points (TakeThePoints@webtv.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 9:20 p.m.
Posted by: samo666
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 April 2000, at 7:57 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 5 April 2000, at 10:02 p.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 12:00 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 2:37 p.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 2:50 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 4:40 p.m.
Posted by: RJS (r_sch@msn.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 10:43 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 10:54 a.m.
Posted by: RJS (r_sch@msn.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 11:31 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 4:18 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 11:17 a.m.
Posted by: ED I
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 1:02 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 1:54 p.m.
Posted by: ED I
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 2:42 p.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 2:49 p.m.
Posted by: Lee Jones (leej@alumni.duke.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 5:19 p.m.
Posted by: ED I
Posted on: Saturday, 8 April 2000, at 10:19 p.m.
Posted by: ED I
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 11:47 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 10:27 p.m.
Posted by: ED I
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 12:06 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 12:20 a.m.
Posted by: ED I
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 1:56 a.m.
Posted by: 2d (matti2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 7:00 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 9:11 p.m.
Posted by: Bill (blipcon@nccn.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 8 April 2000, at 10:39 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 8 April 2000, at 5:35 p.m.
Posted by: Bill (blipcon@nccn.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 8 April 2000, at 7:26 p.m.
Posted by: ED I
Posted on: Saturday, 8 April 2000, at 10:26 p.m.
Posted by: Murray
Posted on: Thursday, 6 April 2000, at 10:39 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 12:23 a.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 10:15 a.m.
Posted by: Murray
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 2:27 p.m.
Posted by: Ratso
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 8:19 a.m.
2. Additional sections designated as ns
3. Entire room ns
4. Keep as is (i.e. ns room of 10 tables and some in smoking area)
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 11:03 a.m.
Posted by: Radical hippie
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 1:33 p.m.
They do have NS holdem games in the regular room. Of course those games deteriorate into smoking games.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 1:48 p.m.
Posted by: Easy E
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 4:51 p.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 8 April 2000, at 2:14 p.m.
Posted by: Big "D" (ramdeal@sprint.ca)
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 9:02 a.m.
Posted by: dave waters (davewaters@rocketmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 2:54 p.m.
Posted by: Daniel Patton
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 4:58 p.m.
Posted by: jikun (jikun@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 7 April 2000, at 11:52 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 8 April 2000, at 10:04 a.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Saturday, 8 April 2000, at 6:37 p.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Sunday, 9 April 2000, at 4:29 p.m.
Posted by: ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 8 April 2000, at 2:24 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Z.
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 April 2000, at 2:10 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 April 2000, at 3:01 p.m.
Posted by: Radical hippie
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 April 2000, at 8:49 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 9 April 2000, at 12:28 p.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Sunday, 9 April 2000, at 7:10 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 1:00 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 9:30 a.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 9 April 2000, at 12:59 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 9 April 2000, at 1:04 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 9 April 2000, at 3:29 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock
Posted on: Sunday, 9 April 2000, at 4:07 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 1:13 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 9:24 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 2:34 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 5:17 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 4:43 a.m.
Posted by: David D
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 9:04 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 9:26 a.m.
Posted by: Bill G.
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 12:11 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 1:17 p.m.
Posted by: Bill G.
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 1:31 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 7:05 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 7:15 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 April 2000, at 2:22 p.m.
Posted by: Niels (antiveg@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 9 April 2000, at 6:18 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 12:27 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 4:47 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 3:16 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 12:21 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 2:45 p.m.
Posted by: mighty maxie
Posted on: Saturday, 6 May 2000, at 1:19 p.m.
Posted by: Niels (antiveg@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 April 2000, at 12:24 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 5:49 a.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 7:19 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 12:46 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 1:02 p.m.
Posted by: samo666
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 April 2000, at 7:53 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 12:30 a.m.
Posted by: Daniel Zarchan (zarchan@fas.harvard.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 10:03 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 April 2000, at 9:46 a.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 10 April 2000, at 10:08 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 April 2000, at 12:12 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 April 2000, at 10:59 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 April 2000, at 8:15 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 April 2000, at 2:55 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 April 2000, at 3:50 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 April 2000, at 5:41 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 April 2000, at 6:02 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 April 2000, at 8:20 p.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 April 2000, at 9:35 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 April 2000, at 9:48 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 11 April 2000, at 2:18 p.m.
Posted by: Johan
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 April 2000, at 3:40 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 April 2000, at 4:34 p.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 April 2000, at 5:17 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 April 2000, at 5:30 p.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 April 2000, at 6:05 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 April 2000, at 6:33 p.m.
Posted by: 2d (matti2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 April 2000, at 7:10 p.m.
Posted by: MjChicago
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 12:03 a.m.
Posted by: Dave Waters (davewaters@rocketmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 April 2000, at 11:59 a.m.
Posted by: mah (mah@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 April 2000, at 6:58 p.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 April 2000, at 9:35 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 12 April 2000, at 11:27 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 12:15 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@comdisco.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 6:23 p.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 April 2000, at 3:39 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 14 April 2000, at 12:32 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Friday, 14 April 2000, at 3:29 p.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Friday, 14 April 2000, at 4:12 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 April 2000, at 6:23 p.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 April 2000, at 7:55 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 16 April 2000, at 9:32 p.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 17 April 2000, at 3:20 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 17 April 2000, at 6:41 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 17 April 2000, at 7:28 p.m.
Posted by: 2d (matti2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 17 April 2000, at 7:51 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 17 April 2000, at 8:58 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 April 2000, at 9:48 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 April 2000, at 11:58 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 7:19 a.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 17 April 2000, at 9:53 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 17 April 2000, at 11:21 p.m.
Posted by: schmuck
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 May 2000, at 2:21 p.m.
Posted by: Calvin
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 2:34 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 10:48 a.m.
Posted by: Third Year Poker Player
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 2:05 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 2:11 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 3:17 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 3:54 p.m.
Posted by: Third Year Poker Player
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 5:07 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 6:21 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 7:32 p.m.
Posted by: Dave Waters (davewaters@rocketmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 April 2000, at 11:25 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 14 April 2000, at 12:24 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Alger (algerc@idt.net)
Posted on: Friday, 14 April 2000, at 2:25 p.m.
Posted by: Dave Waters (davewaters@rocketmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 April 2000, at 3:01 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Alger (algerc@idt.net)
Posted on: Friday, 14 April 2000, at 3:35 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 14 April 2000, at 4:26 p.m.
Posted by: gene harris
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 3:38 p.m.
Posted by: Radical hippie
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 3:51 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 3:59 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 6:26 p.m.
Posted by: Ten Beers After
Posted on: Sunday, 16 April 2000, at 5:53 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 7:42 p.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 April 2000, at 3:28 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 14 April 2000, at 12:13 p.m.
Posted by: 2d (matti2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 4:37 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 5:24 p.m.
Posted by: 2d (matti2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 6:12 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 7:14 p.m.
Posted by: DjTj (tjou@caltech.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 6:58 p.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Thursday, 13 April 2000, at 11:17 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 21 April 2000, at 3:58 p.m.
Posted by: 2d (matti2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 April 2000, at 2:07 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 14 April 2000, at 3:14 p.m.
Posted by: 2d (matti2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 14 April 2000, at 3:37 p.m.
Posted by: ED I
Posted on: Friday, 14 April 2000, at 5:09 p.m.
Posted by: Donald M.
Posted on: Monday, 17 April 2000, at 11:34 a.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Monday, 17 April 2000, at 11:58 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Monday, 17 April 2000, at 1:09 p.m.
Posted by: Curt L.
Posted on: Monday, 17 April 2000, at 10:28 p.m.
Posted by: Daniel Patton
Posted on: Monday, 17 April 2000, at 5:44 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 April 2000, at 1:44 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 April 2000, at 2:10 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 9:23 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 10:30 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 10:12 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 12:25 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 9:01 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 April 2000, at 4:51 p.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 9:57 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 11:06 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 5:44 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 5:58 p.m.
Posted by: Ken Kubey (kubey@sgi.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 1:50 p.m.
Posted by: Fred F.
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 April 2000, at 9:32 p.m.
Posted by: MS (Margol@ianitrix.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 18 April 2000, at 10:58 p.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 1:49 a.m.
Posted by: MS (Margol@ianitrix.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 10:52 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 12:15 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 8:58 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 April 2000, at 2:12 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 12:25 p.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 9:46 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 April 2000, at 2:52 a.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 April 2000, at 9:46 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 April 2000, at 11:26 p.m.
Posted by: Chico
Posted on: Thursday, 20 April 2000, at 9:08 a.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 April 2000, at 9:54 p.m.
Posted by: Chico
Posted on: Thursday, 20 April 2000, at 11:15 p.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 4:22 a.m.
Posted by: Steve Chable
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 2:16 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 April 2000, at 6:36 p.m.
Posted by: Matt Damon Runyon
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 8:47 p.m.
Posted by: Harvard Chu
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 9:01 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 9:40 p.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Wednesday, 19 April 2000, at 10:57 p.m.
"Oh, you have a pencil too, then we're OK"
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 20 April 2000, at 8:40 a.m.
Posted by: 2d (matti2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 April 2000, at 3:25 p.m.
Posted by: Sme (Le_blanc_99@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 April 2000, at 3:42 a.m.
Posted by: dave
Posted on: Friday, 21 April 2000, at 1:38 p.m.
Posted by: cj (chrisj_14@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 20 April 2000, at 11:03 p.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Friday, 21 April 2000, at 10:59 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Friday, 21 April 2000, at 2:13 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 21 April 2000, at 2:45 a.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Friday, 21 April 2000, at 10:50 a.m.
Posted by: 2d (matti2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 21 April 2000, at 11:20 a.m.
Posted by: Matt Damon Runyon
Posted on: Friday, 21 April 2000, at 2:57 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Sunday, 23 April 2000, at 2:22 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 23 April 2000, at 11:29 a.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 2:32 a.m.
Posted by: Mid-Altanic Player
Posted on: Friday, 21 April 2000, at 11:18 a.m.
Posted by: Kevin L
Posted on: Friday, 21 April 2000, at 8:35 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Sunday, 23 April 2000, at 2:34 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 23 April 2000, at 11:26 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 23 April 2000, at 1:17 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 2:31 a.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 April 2000, at 10:01 p.m.
Posted by: MJS (mjs_90201@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 23 April 2000, at 4:28 a.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 23 April 2000, at 3:27 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 7:29 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 10:44 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 9:37 a.m.
Posted by: Hrothgar
Posted on: Monday, 1 May 2000, at 7:38 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 7:33 a.m.
Posted by: 2d (matti2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 11:31 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 11:38 a.m.
Posted by: MJChicago (m7h1j5@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 2:13 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 4:25 p.m.
Posted by: MjChicago
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 7:22 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 April 2000, at 11:11 a.m.
Posted by: MjChicago
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 April 2000, at 11:19 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 1:18 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 2:12 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 11:56 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 April 2000, at 8:41 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 2 May 2000, at 4:37 a.m.
Posted by: Dunc Mills (dunc@parcom.ab.ca)
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 3:50 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 4:30 p.m.
Posted by: 2d (matti2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 4:18 p.m.
Posted by: ED I
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 April 2000, at 1:14 a.m.
Posted by: Spike (clarkkk@avenuea.com)
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 3:19 p.m.
Posted by: 2d (matti2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 4:12 p.m.
Posted by: Spike (clarkkk@avenuea.com)
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 10:11 p.m.
Posted by: Kevin L
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 10:57 p.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 April 2000, at 2:23 a.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 6:00 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 8:59 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 April 2000, at 4:21 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 April 2000, at 11:09 a.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 6:24 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 24 April 2000, at 7:01 p.m.
Posted by: james H. (hansen@its.caltech.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 April 2000, at 3:07 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 April 2000, at 4:29 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 April 2000, at 7:44 p.m.
Posted by: Chief O'Brien
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 April 2000, at 1:45 p.m.
Posted by: Ronnie Phillips
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 April 2000, at 2:02 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 April 2000, at 2:27 p.m.
Posted by: Barma & Postnik
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 April 2000, at 2:35 p.m.
Posted by: Spike
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 April 2000, at 6:17 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 April 2000, at 7:14 p.m.
Posted by: Spike (clarkk@avenuea.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 April 2000, at 7:32 p.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 25 April 2000, at 9:06 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 April 2000, at 9:35 a.m.
Posted by: WildBill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 28 April 2000, at 2:50 a.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 29 April 2000, at 3:25 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 April 2000, at 9:56 a.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 April 2000, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 April 2000, at 12:10 p.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 4:00 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 6:33 a.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 9:40 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 2 May 2000, at 11:37 p.m.
Posted by: Matt Damon Runyon
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 April 2000, at 4:33 p.m.
Posted by: 2d (matti2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 April 2000, at 5:00 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock
Posted on: Wednesday, 26 April 2000, at 6:56 p.m.
Posted by: Joe Lott (joelott@wam.umd.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 1:58 a.m.
Posted by: DjTj (tjou@caltech.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 3:54 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 5:28 a.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 10:22 a.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 10:26 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 2:02 p.m.
Posted by: Niels (antiveg@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 28 April 2000, at 5:58 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Friday, 28 April 2000, at 6:41 p.m.
Posted by: Niels (antiveg@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 28 April 2000, at 7:09 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 29 April 2000, at 11:03 a.m.
Posted by: Maniac Mark (mlundqui@mbhs.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 29 April 2000, at 7:42 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Sunday, 30 April 2000, at 11:04 a.m.
Posted by: Joe Lott (joelott@wam.umd.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 3:11 p.m.
Posted by: Dunc Mills (dunc@parcom.ab.ca)
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 11:49 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 12:44 p.m.
Posted by: Dunc Mills (dunc@parcom.ab.ca)
Posted on: Friday, 28 April 2000, at 11:58 a.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Friday, 28 April 2000, at 12:16 p.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 3:09 p.m.
Posted by: skp (supriyabc@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 28 April 2000, at 1:41 a.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 4:46 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock
Posted on: Friday, 28 April 2000, at 1:34 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 6:02 p.m.
Posted by: Matt Damon Runyon
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 6:43 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 8:50 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 29 April 2000, at 2:46 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 10:02 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock
Posted on: Thursday, 27 April 2000, at 10:02 p.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Friday, 28 April 2000, at 12:23 a.m.
Posted by: Smallfry
Posted on: Friday, 28 April 2000, at 10:28 p.m.
Posted by: jg
Posted on: Saturday, 29 April 2000, at 3:32 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Friday, 28 April 2000, at 5:08 a.m.
Posted by: Sour Vine
Posted on: Friday, 28 April 2000, at 9:47 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 30 April 2000, at 5:07 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Sunday, 30 April 2000, at 8:44 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 30 April 2000, at 9:31 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 1 May 2000, at 2:38 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 1 May 2000, at 2:49 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 1 May 2000, at 7:28 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 1 May 2000, at 12:48 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 1 May 2000, at 2:42 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 1 May 2000, at 2:47 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 1 May 2000, at 2:58 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Monday, 1 May 2000, at 5:00 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 1 May 2000, at 7:38 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 1 May 2000, at 10:27 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus (cyrus_tm@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 2 May 2000, at 10:35 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 28 April 2000, at 1:12 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 28 April 2000, at 6:23 p.m.
Posted by: Take The Points
Posted on: Friday, 28 April 2000, at 9:14 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 29 April 2000, at 5:41 p.m.
Posted by: Take The Points
Posted on: Sunday, 30 April 2000, at 6:15 a.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 30 April 2000, at 9:23 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Monday, 1 May 2000, at 10:23 a.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Monday, 1 May 2000, at 4:45 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 1 May 2000, at 5:11 p.m.
Posted by: Azad
Posted on: Tuesday, 2 May 2000, at 10:14 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 2 May 2000, at 10:43 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 3 May 2000, at 7:51 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 29 April 2000, at 3:59 a.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Saturday, 29 April 2000, at 12:35 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 29 April 2000, at 6:58 p.m.
Posted by: Maniac Mark (mlundqui@mbhs.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 29 April 2000, at 7:17 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Sunday, 30 April 2000, at 11:35 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 30 April 2000, at 11:09 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 29 April 2000, at 4:17 p.m.
Posted by: John Tyler
Posted on: Saturday, 29 April 2000, at 5:42 p.m.
Posted by: wildbill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 30 April 2000, at 12:43 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 30 April 2000, at 12:32 p.m.
Posted by: Dave Waters (davewaters@rocketmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 30 April 2000, at 1:18 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 30 April 2000, at 1:33 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 30 April 2000, at 7:08 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 30 April 2000, at 7:54 p.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 30 April 2000, at 8:07 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 30 April 2000, at 10:27 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Monday, 1 May 2000, at 12:09 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 1 May 2000, at 12:17 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 1 May 2000, at 12:17 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 1 May 2000, at 10:29 a.m.
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